May 1, 2024 • 29 mins
Megan Walsh joins Allison in today's episode to discuss the issue of therapists feeling creatively disconnected and share strategies for therapists wanting to reconnect with their creativity. Together, they explore how therapists often lose their creative connection due to overthinking, comparison, and a lack of alignment with their unique selves. In this episode, Megan suggests different activities a therapist can do to evoke joy and thus gain some clarity about both personal and professional goals.
To learn more about today's guest, visit https://www.abundancepracticebuilding.com/blog.
Attention Abundance Community members: Megan Walsh is our May trainer. For details on the live training via Zoom, check out the event listing in the private Abundance Community Facebook group &/or the "Upcoming Events" section of your membership portal.
To check out our free resources, including weekly worksheets & our Tasky Checklist, visit https://www.abundancepracticebuilding.com/links. Learn how to fill your practice with the Abundance Party! Join today & get 75% off your first month with promo code PODCAST: https://www.abundancepracticebuilding.com/abundanceparty
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Episode Transcript
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(00:08):
(Transcribed by TurboScribe.ai - Go Unlimited to remove this message) Hi, welcome to the Abundant Practice Podcast.
I'm Allison from Abundance Practice Building.
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(00:29):
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Welcome back to the Abundant Practice Podcast.
I'm your host, Alison Puryear.
I'm here with Megan Walsh and we're going
to be talking about bringing creativity into the
way you're running your business.
I'm so excited.
Megan, you're a creative arts therapist, right?
(02:36):
So, no better person to be talking about
this.
Thank you for being here.
Of course.
Thank you so much for having me.
I'm so excited to talk today.
So, talk us through what you even mean
by creativity.
Let's start there.
Yeah.
Great question.
Great place to start.
So, I think we all kind of, many
(02:57):
of us think of creativity as art, music,
you know, drama, these like traditional arts that
we all grew up with, right?
Taking music lessons, taking art lessons, and that
creativity is something that you're good at.
I, you know, I'm talking about creativity from
more of like a mindful perspective.
And if think about the word create, it
(03:18):
literally means to bring something into existence.
And so, when we think of it that
way, you know, creativity is all about like,
what do we want to make from nothing,
right?
Like what do we want to bring into
our realities?
And, you know, and also how do we
use creativity as also as a container, like
a container for support, connection, exploration, growth.
(03:42):
So, creativity is many things, but a lot
of richness in creativity.
Yeah.
I love that.
I love.
So, I'm the daughter of a sculptor and
painter.
It's my mom.
My dad's an incredible musician.
And so, people are always like, oh, like
what's, you know, are you, do you create
art?
And I'm like, I create businesses.
(04:03):
You sure do.
I really love it.
I mean, I do some other kind of
more traditional creative things, but the thing that
comes easiest to me and just feels most
natural is creating businesses.
So, I love your reframe that it's not
necessarily just the thing you see on stage
or in a gallery.
Absolutely.
It's, you know, it's so important to remember
(04:25):
that because then it like reframes creativity as
something we all have.
Every human on this planet is a creative
being, you know, even from like, what do
I want for dinner tonight?
Like I want tacos.
And so, then I go upstairs and I
create, right?
Tacos from dinner.
I thought about it and then I made
it like that's something really simple, but that
applies, right?
(04:46):
It applies to our work.
It applies to the businesses we're building and
it, you know, applies to our relationships with
our clients, right?
We are creating an entity with our clients.
And so, it's so important to remember that
that is where we are in the process.
And we have a lot of power in
knowing that we can own that.
(05:07):
Yeah.
So, probably the majority of therapists listening right
now are listening because they feel creatively disconnected.
I think just as human adults, we are
often creatively disconnected.
Yeah.
So, can we talk some about maybe how
that process comes to be, how we get
disconnected and then how to get reconnected or
(05:27):
newly connected?
Yes, yes, yes, yes.
You know, I think we all get so
disconnected because we are so in our brains,
right?
We are so, we are thinking, we are
overthinking.
I'm sure there's many overthinkers out there and
we are looking, we are reading, we're getting
information.
You know, I think especially in practice building,
(05:47):
I know what happened for me and I'm
sure happens for many other therapists as you're
comparing, you're like, okay, this person's doing it
this way.
They're doing it that way.
I know I feel like I should do
it the same way.
And so, then when like the shoulds get
in there, right?
I should be doing this.
I should be doing that.
So, we are then going on a path
where we're not necessarily connected to, but what
is me?
(06:08):
Like, how do I want to do this?
What do I bring uniquely to this?
And so, when we have that disconnect where
we're not necessarily aligned with where we are
in the process and who we are in
the process, that is where we get stuck
because then we get in this place of
like, I'm not measuring up, right?
I'm not good enough.
I don't have as many followers.
I don't have as many inquiries.
(06:30):
I don't have as many intakes clients, right?
We get into this spiral of like, it's
not enough.
It's not enough.
And again, personally have been there and I,
you know, we come in and out of
that so many times.
And so, when we recognize that we're there,
when we're starting to feel like burnt out,
this is so hard.
I remember early on in like building an
Instagram and all of that, like I would
(06:51):
do it really like intensely for a little
bit.
And then I would ghost for like months
because I'm like, this is too much, too
much.
So, I would say that in that moment,
when you notice you're stuck, when it comes
to creativity, I love thinking about who is
your creative self and what does that look
like?
And so, there I like to start with
like, what did you love to do as
(07:12):
a kid, right?
Let's go back to that inner child.
What did you love to do?
And give yourself some true time and space
to do that.
Now, for me, I'm trained as a music
psychotherapist.
However, my inner child loved to dance.
And so, for me, sometimes if I'm feeling
really stuck, I know like, okay, it's time
to get up.
(07:32):
Like, let's turn on some Spice Girls and
like just dance around and connect in that
way.
Because in order to reconnect, we have to
get back into our bodies.
And I know everyone's hearing, right?
Somatic, using somatic hearing, breath and body, connecting,
but it's so true.
We've got to get back into our bodies
and allowing ourselves to create, whether that is
(07:54):
just free drawing, free writing, something that like
gets all of our stuff kind of connected.
We connect to it and then get it
out into the world in some way, without
judgment, right?
Like, just be curious, see what's there.
And then I think you're going to get
a lot of information about what you want
and where you want to go with your
practice.
(08:15):
I had my own experience with this after
the peak of COVID.
I was so depressed because I'm so extroverted.
And it was, it's just, and I was
overworking.
Nobody was asking me to overwork, but I
thought it was my duty for some reason.
And so I was just, it was all
just too much.
And I was like, I don't know what's
(08:37):
fun anymore.
I don't even have fun.
I don't know what it looks like.
I don't know what to do.
And I did that idea of like, go
back to what you loved when you were
younger.
And for me, that meant, so I went
to a performing arts high school.
So I sang and I acted there.
And so I was like, you know, improv
doesn't require any sort of planning.
I have no space in my life to
plan anything right now.
(08:58):
I don't want to rehearse or learn lines.
I just, so I went for improv and
this idea that it is all in your
body.
Like if ever there was a art form
that you think could be all mind, all
just brain, it could be improv because you
are having to go real fast in there,
but nobody wants to watch two people standing
there having a conversation.
You have to be in your body.
You have to be moving.
(09:19):
You have to be scene building essentially.
And it really brought me back to life,
honestly.
And it like sparked more, like I was
driving around more because that's where I did
most of my singing was in the car.
So I was driving around more and I
mixed all audio books and podcasts and was
only listening to music.
(09:39):
And so it's bringing that back to myself,
bringing me back to myself through that creativity
is so instrumental in, in pulling me out
of depression and like feeling more like myself
than I had even in years, like pre
-COVID, I didn't realize how far I'd strayed.
Right.
Oh, it's so true.
And when you're in that movement, like you,
(10:02):
you get into a flow and you get
into this place where actually you're going to
be way more, quote unquote, productive and creative,
right?
You're going to, all these new ideas are
going to come to you, even though you
think I should be listening to all the
podcasts and making all the notes and doing
all the things because that's, what's going to
get me ahead.
But actually no, it's, it's really going to
be this.
Okay.
Letting yourself just, just be in your body
(10:24):
and however that looks for you.
Yeah.
And play.
Like, I think it being a low stakes
thing, especially for folks who are creating practices,
like that's so high stakes and it's so
much pressure that if you can do something
where like, you know, it's not a stage
production that you care about a bunch or
like, you don't have a solo oboe situation
(10:46):
with the symphony.
Like it's just you messing around and if
you screw up, no one really cares.
Like it's just ego.
And then you're like, Oh, well, exactly.
That's about as much pressure as I would
want to put on whatever your creative pursuit
is.
You're not trying to get your piece of
art into the Met.
You're just literally just creating it and maybe
(11:08):
tossing it.
Who knows?
Totally.
You're just creating and you're noticing.
And that's where creativity is a container.
You know, it's a place where you can
like put all this stuff that you might
not be.
So actually it might not be in your
conscious awareness yet, right?
Like subconsciously you might be like, Ooh, I
hate this.
I'm going down a path that doesn't feel
aligned to me.
(11:28):
And that's what's making me feel stuck.
And then the second you, right, you bring
it into creativity, you might be like, Oh,
actually this is what I want to do.
Yeah.
And then it almost like gives you permission
to kind of, let's say you, you do
a lot of work and then you actually
do want to make a pivot.
You're allowed.
You're totally allowed to.
And it's okay.
And that's a really good thing because you're
learning more about yourself.
(11:50):
And, you know, creative, if I'm thinking about
creativity as a container and how it supported
me in my life, you know, I grew
up in a, in a house with many
of us therapists have where we didn't talk
about emotions and you know, there wasn't a
space to, to express it.
And so I like all of my songs,
you know, I wrote a lot of songs
that were just infused with like so much
(12:10):
anger and angst, which if you knew me,
you'd be like, what, like where did this
come from?
Even like reading it, I'd be like, I'm
just making this up, right.
This is not real.
But then when I go back and look
at it, I'm like, Oh honey, like you
had a lot going on in there.
And so, you know, it's this beautiful container
where we can get, you know, so much
information that is being stored in our bodies
(12:31):
that might not be, you know, consciously there.
Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely.
So I think about like, okay, there's this
container that can help us think outside the
box, which can help our businesses.
Yeah.
Cause all that comparing we're doing and like
shiny object chasing and all those kinds of
things.
Like I love a shiny object.
Right.
I love the, I love the promise of
a shiny object.
(12:53):
And then when I'm like, Oh no, this
is just a dull object.
Just like all the others on the shelf
over here.
It's just marketing was good.
Then it's, it's like, Oh, oops.
I just spent a lot of time, energy,
money on something that didn't pan out the
way that I had hoped.
I think about that.
Like if I had spent that same time,
(13:15):
energy, and not even money, but just that
same time and energy, not focusing on the
business, focusing on my life or focusing on
creativity, that, that would have had me thinking
about things differently.
It would have totally like turned on different
parts of my brain that shift perspective and
shift.
Problem-solving.
(13:36):
Absolutely.
Shifting.
It can shift so much and it can,
it can help you think of all these
different ways to approach things.
And also, you know, I think creativity is
one of the most important aspects that actually
helps me connect to my ideal client.
Just like kind of playing around with it.
Cause I think, especially when we think about
marketing and I'm thinking from the lens of,
(13:56):
you know, maybe you're starting an Instagram or
Tik TOK or something like that.
And you're really afraid of like, Oh my
God, like being seen.
I think in those initial stages, you can
get so stuck in like the you, but
like the you being projected outward that it's
really hard to like connect to the client
and embody the client.
But actually when you let yourself get creative
of like, what, what does, what would my
(14:18):
client feel and experience and let yourself kind
of play with that, right.
Play it out.
And of course, right.
Your client is a version of you.
So you're going to be accessing right.
Your own stuff.
And, and honestly, when you do it that
way, then you're going to be, it's going
to be more fun to create, to create
content because right.
We are all creators now and always, but
(14:38):
it's going to be more helpful for you
to, to embody that.
And then to, to find more quote unquote
success or more reach, more expansion in your
business.
When you're able to embody that embody your
client and, and, you know, be able to
speak to them in that way.
Yeah, absolutely.
And I think about it's deeper, right.
(15:00):
It's deeper than like you listing on your
website, the symptoms of depression.
Totally.
Instead, it's like that daily lived experience that
I talk about all the time.
When you describe the daily lived experience, which
requires creativity, it requires putting yourself in your
client's shoes or going back to that time
in your life and thinking it and feeling
it and then describing it, then that's going
(15:21):
to be so much more impactful.
It's going to be so much more alluring
to an ideal client.
Then are you experiencing anhedonia?
Literally, I did this just last night.
I was creating like a post for today
about like, just using some, um, some memes
around people pleasing.
I've started to sit with like, what are
(15:42):
the exact experiences I've had and how can
I, how could I list that out?
And literally the one was when you're, if
you're a people pleaser and you're still hungry,
but there is one slice of pizza left.
Oh my gosh.
Yeah.
It's just that inner, like I can't take
it.
We have to, we have to split it
or you have to tell me 10 times
that you're not going to eat it in
order for me to eat it that, that
(16:02):
how much more of an impact that has
than just saying, right.
Are you, are you a people pleaser listing
that on your, on your site?
And so it's, it's just, it's a fun
exercise to like, yeah, let's just play out.
What are all these different scenarios that I've
experienced myself?
Yeah.
And it sticks in people's heads more.
Right.
I saw one actually this afternoon that was
(16:23):
about people pleasing and it had problems of
dessert left.
It was two people pleasers.
And one was taking like half of the
crumbs and then the other would take half
of that half and then half of that
half.
And it was just like, I mean, that
was hours ago.
And I just thought of it because you
sparked that and that's impactful because it's true.
(16:43):
Yeah.
So true.
We've all been clarity of the truth, but
it's still the truth.
Yeah.
So what are some other ways that we
can think creatively or bring creativity into our
practices so that they're more fulfilling for us
so that they bring in the right clients?
Yeah, absolutely.
You know, I think, I think letting yourself
have like a, what is your creative practice?
(17:04):
So I think it starts with getting in
touch with your, you know, your inner child.
What does your inner child like to do
and building creativity into your daily, your daily
practice, whatever that is.
I think a lot of people go towards
writing and journaling, but, you know, maybe it's
your walk.
Like you take a walk and then you
just notice because a walk is kind of
a place where you get into flow and,
(17:24):
and you can kind of, that's where big
ideas come or, you know, when you take
a shower or something like that, but just
having like an awareness of what's there, right.
What's coming up.
What do I, how do I want to
infuse this into, into my practice building.
And then when it comes to your work,
there's so much power of using creativity inside
(17:45):
of the therapy room.
You know, creativity in many forms is there
are levels of what we call aesthetic distance
around creativity.
So something like, let's say your client is
feeling a little bit stuck and you know,
you're, maybe you're talking around a topic for
a while, but you want to give it
a new form, give it a different shape
so you can kind of understand it a
(18:06):
little bit deeper.
So I may say to a client, I
know we've been talking about this feeling and
we're not exactly sure where it comes from.
Why don't you just take a minute and
create an image of like, what does it
look like if you were to make it
look like something?
And sometimes we'll do this with parts work
too.
Like what does this part look like?
And so when we do art, art is
(18:26):
kind of gives us the most distance, right?
It's kind of like, we have a little
bit more control around what we're doing.
It's not so embodied.
So that's kind of a nice place to
start when you have a client who's not
so ready to get into their body yet.
And then, you know, we can bring music
in and music has levels of the distance.
One way it could be like, you know,
what song are you feeling connected to today?
I love that question.
(18:47):
It's kind of a nice get to know
you.
Cause I've had, you know, many clients who
will come in like similar to me, like
smile.
I'm great.
And they share the saddest song I've ever
heard already, right?
This is so much information about the client
before we've ever even, you know, dived in
to a history.
(19:08):
So that music in that way can, can
have more of a distance when it comes
to, you know, to the body, you know,
just doing breaths, guiding your clients into, I
have a ritual with many clients of starting
the session with three breaths.
And that's kind of the check-in of
like, what are you noticing coming up?
So instead of just diving into, this is
what I did this week.
(19:28):
We start right with the body, like drop
on in, see what's there.
And of course, these are all practices that
you can obviously take yourself to when you're,
you know, doing this, this work.
And then, you know, deeper than that, sometimes
the, the art.
And for me, a lot of times it's
music can be like an incredibly reparative piece
(19:48):
of the process.
So if we're like kind of deep in
some attachment, like early developmental stages, bringing in
the voice and perhaps even singing to a
client, which, you know, this comes from being
a trained music therapist.
I know not everybody can do this, but,
but knowing that, you know, being able to,
to offer these pieces can be really reparative
(20:10):
and, and music kind of, or music and
art, all the, all of the arts bring
like third element into the room that we
can put stuff on it.
So it's just a little bit easier to
play with.
Given where our clients are in terms of
their own kind of openness, vulnerability, it's kind
of a way to dip your toe in.
Let's put it over there.
Let's put this anger part over there because
(20:31):
it is way.
It's not safe yet to hold in my
body, but I can hold it.
Right.
I can put it on this piece of
paper.
I can listen to it in this song.
There's right.
So many ways to play and to play
with material with creativity.
I love that.
I didn't know what I was doing at
the time, but that was pre-masters.
I worked at a residential treatment center for
folks with eating disorders.
(20:53):
I've somehow was allowed to run groups.
I don't know exactly, but whatever.
I loved it.
I did so much research before every group,
but I was like, I would really love
everybody to bring in a song that describes
how they feel.
So kind of what you were saying.
And it was, it was so informative and
so heart wrenching, heart wrenching.
And because we feel songs, you know, like
(21:15):
the good ones, we really do feel them.
And it was something that actually helped build
some empathy between some of the group members
who didn't necessarily like each other very much
that they could connect.
Totally.
Oh yeah.
It's such a huge piece of, of connection.
Yeah.
So much, so much information.
(21:36):
And I would, anybody that's listening, I would
let you like, think about what is a
song you're feeling connected to today and listen
to it and notice like, what is it
telling about where you are?
What do you notice in yourself could be
pretty, pretty powerful.
Yeah.
And I noticed like myself, as you asked
that granted, I'm in interview mode, I'm not
fully sunk in, but I'm like, I have
no idea.
(21:56):
And that's good information too.
I'm disconnected and it's just information until after
this call, maybe like, yeah, exactly.
And what I love about that too, it
like it's a quick, right.
It's a quick thing that you can do
to sink in.
It doesn't have to be a whole, you
know, 45 minute yoga session.
Like it can be just like, okay, let's,
let's sit with that and, and see what's
(22:18):
there, listen, check in.
And that's where you can maybe start to
write or find another way to, to process
what's there.
And, you know, even just like those three
breaths, I always say like, if my clients
could take anything, just let yourself do those
three quick breaths, especially at moments during your
day, right.
Or maybe you're sitting at your work desk
and you're feeling really overwhelmed, take the three
(22:39):
breaths, see what's there and then kind of
move forward.
Like any way where we can just like
quickly drop into the body is, is huge.
What else should we as therapists be considering
for our creativity, not even for our clients,
but just for ourselves?
Are there other things that we can add
on top of what we've talked about?
(23:00):
That's a great question.
And I guess it's, it's very, um, oh,
you know, one thing I love to talk
about is resistance.
Like take a look at your resistance, um,
especially to creativity.
And I will say as a music therapist,
I am so resistant to making my own
music.
So resistant to it.
(23:22):
And even in my own, as a client
at, you know, in music psychotherapy, that's always
been my thing.
We'll say like, let's play around it.
And I'll be like, I don't want to
make me do it.
But so much of that is around like,
am I feeling my own vulnerability and my
own sense of, am I feeling safe is
whatever's happening because when you're entering music, right,
(23:44):
you are getting vulnerable.
And especially in that space, right.
It's vulnerable.
It's intimate in front of someone else.
And so, so really noticing if, if you're
wanting to get creative, if you've noticed like,
Ooh, my inner, uh, my inner child loves
to paint or this and you're resisting it
back in on that, like, what is that
(24:05):
for you?
Because what are you trying to not dive
into?
What are you not allowing yourself to open
up?
Have you read the book, the war of
art?
If not, it talks a lot about resistance
and creativity and how like, it's always going
to be there and let's just accept it
and do it anyway.
Kind of, yeah, we can understand it.
(24:26):
And we can learn a lot from like
what's creating the resistance, but ultimately it's the
doing of the thing that's going to keep
us moving forward.
Totally.
Yep.
Yeah.
It's an, it's an interesting book.
Um, it kind of takes up some of
the things people assume is just kind of
like the nature of art and it is
more about the discipline of sitting your butt
(24:46):
down and doing it, which applies so intensely
to your practice.
You are always the queen of just do
it, like just sit down and do it.
And that, right.
That's so important.
Are you, where are you resisting in your
practice?
What are you avoiding and let yourself just
right.
Sit down and get into the act of
(25:08):
creating whatever it is that you are needing
to create and build.
Yeah.
And I think for, for people like me
who lean I'm much better now, but I
have leaned much more towards the perfectionistic in
my life than the opposite really full permission
for it to be bad.
Yeah.
I was in an art therapy group as
(25:29):
a client in my early twenties and they
had, you know, it was like all a
bunch of perfectionists and they had us use
our non-dominant hand for all the art.
And it was so helpful because I wouldn't
have been able to let myself off the
hook.
Otherwise I had to have this excuse for
(25:50):
why it was bad.
And so like, if anybody needs to use
that, if that's so great.
Yeah.
Let yourself do that.
And you know, this just came to me
too, as a fellow, a fellow perfectionist in
what you're creating in your practice, what you're
building.
I think I touched on it a little
bit earlier, but allowing yourself to build something
(26:13):
and then let it go.
I did a one-on-one with you
maybe a couple of years ago around.
And when I was in the inner circle,
I did a lot of work around building
a coaching practice that was like specific for
brides.
Cause I had just gone through like a
COVID pandemic wedding.
And I was like, this was so stressful.
Brides need support.
I still think it's a great idea.
(26:34):
However, then I got pregnant and you know,
I had to let it go.
I had no, I had no space for
it.
And I felt so guilty of like, I
can't, I did all this work.
I can't there, but it no longer was
creatively aligned with what I felt passionate about
what I wanted to spend my time doing.
And like, that was such a hard lesson
to learn that you can create, you can
(26:54):
build and continuing to tune into what is
what's right for you.
And so that has like taken a whole
new form now it's, you know, and, and
I wouldn't be where I am without that
version of me having built that because now
I'm building on that and remembering that too,
that whatever we create, it's not for no
reason.
And that you're going to continue to build
(27:15):
upon it and build upon it.
And it's all going to grow and shift
and change.
Your practice is going to grow and shift
and change.
You're going to grow and shift and change
as a clinician.
And so that's what I love about creativity
is giving us that permission to shift and
change and, you know, be many versions, many
forms of ourselves and our businesses.
Yeah.
It's so hard to let go when you
(27:35):
invested time and energy and love, you know,
like you wouldn't have invested all the time
and energy if you hadn't loved the idea
that creative misalignment that ends up happening for
many of us.
It's an important question.
If you keep holding on, like, what's it
for?
Yeah.
What's it filling for you right now?
There was a time when it really filled
something for you.
What's it feeling for you now?
(27:58):
Totally.
Which is so, such an important question to
sit with.
And, you know, I think there's a lot
of resistance there, right?
The resistance to let go.
Yeah.
Because there's grief there and that makes us
kind of sit with some icky feelings that,
you know, hard to do, but that's again,
right?
Where are our, let's listen to the song.
Let's take a breath.
Let's move.
(28:18):
Comes in to help us feel and work
through those emotions in order to let them
move through us.
And then, and then be let go because
if they don't, then they're going to get
stuck and then we're going to get right
into that process of being stuck in our
heads and feeling overwhelmed and overworked.
So it's all interconnected.
It is.
It is.
(28:38):
Oh, thank you so much, Megan.
Of course.
Thank you for having me.
Yeah.
Where can people follow you or get in
touch with you if they want more?
Yeah.
So easiest place to find me is on
Instagram at connect with Megan M E G
A N and you links to everything else
is there too.
Wonderful.
Thank you so much.
Thank you so much.
(29:24):
Let's help all our colleagues build what they
want.
(Transcribed by TurboScribe.ai - Go Unlimited to remove this message) Hi, welcome to the Abundant Practice Podcast.
I'm Allison from Abundance Practice Building.
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I'm excited to help you too.
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(00:29):
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You really wish grad school had covered how
(01:32):
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In grad school, you had a professor you
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(01:52):
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(02:13):
Check out Party Plus in the link in
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dreaming of.
Welcome back to the Abundant Practice Podcast.
I'm your host, Alison Puryear.
I'm here with Megan Walsh and we're going
to be talking about bringing creativity into the
way you're running your business.
I'm so excited.
Megan, you're a creative arts therapist, right?
(02:36):
So, no better person to be talking about
this.
Thank you for being here.
Of course.
Thank you so much for having me.
I'm so excited to talk today.
So, talk us through what you even mean
by creativity.
Let's start there.
Yeah.
Great question.
Great place to start.
So, I think we all kind of, many
(02:57):
of us think of creativity as art, music,
you know, drama, these like traditional arts that
we all grew up with, right?
Taking music lessons, taking art lessons, and that
creativity is something that you're good at.
I, you know, I'm talking about creativity from
more of like a mindful perspective.
And if think about the word create, it
(03:18):
literally means to bring something into existence.
And so, when we think of it that
way, you know, creativity is all about like,
what do we want to make from nothing,
right?
Like what do we want to bring into
our realities?
And, you know, and also how do we
use creativity as also as a container, like
a container for support, connection, exploration, growth.
(03:42):
So, creativity is many things, but a lot
of richness in creativity.
Yeah.
I love that.
I love.
So, I'm the daughter of a sculptor and
painter.
It's my mom.
My dad's an incredible musician.
And so, people are always like, oh, like
what's, you know, are you, do you create
art?
And I'm like, I create businesses.
(04:03):
You sure do.
I really love it.
I mean, I do some other kind of
more traditional creative things, but the thing that
comes easiest to me and just feels most
natural is creating businesses.
So, I love your reframe that it's not
necessarily just the thing you see on stage
or in a gallery.
Absolutely.
It's, you know, it's so important to remember
(04:25):
that because then it like reframes creativity as
something we all have.
Every human on this planet is a creative
being, you know, even from like, what do
I want for dinner tonight?
Like I want tacos.
And so, then I go upstairs and I
create, right?
Tacos from dinner.
I thought about it and then I made
it like that's something really simple, but that
applies, right?
(04:46):
It applies to our work.
It applies to the businesses we're building and
it, you know, applies to our relationships with
our clients, right?
We are creating an entity with our clients.
And so, it's so important to remember that
that is where we are in the process.
And we have a lot of power in
knowing that we can own that.
(05:07):
Yeah.
So, probably the majority of therapists listening right
now are listening because they feel creatively disconnected.
I think just as human adults, we are
often creatively disconnected.
Yeah.
So, can we talk some about maybe how
that process comes to be, how we get
disconnected and then how to get reconnected or
(05:27):
newly connected?
Yes, yes, yes, yes.
You know, I think we all get so
disconnected because we are so in our brains,
right?
We are so, we are thinking, we are
overthinking.
I'm sure there's many overthinkers out there and
we are looking, we are reading, we're getting
information.
You know, I think especially in practice building,
(05:47):
I know what happened for me and I'm
sure happens for many other therapists as you're
comparing, you're like, okay, this person's doing it
this way.
They're doing it that way.
I know I feel like I should do
it the same way.
And so, then when like the shoulds get
in there, right?
I should be doing this.
I should be doing that.
So, we are then going on a path
where we're not necessarily connected to, but what
is me?
(06:08):
Like, how do I want to do this?
What do I bring uniquely to this?
And so, when we have that disconnect where
we're not necessarily aligned with where we are
in the process and who we are in
the process, that is where we get stuck
because then we get in this place of
like, I'm not measuring up, right?
I'm not good enough.
I don't have as many followers.
I don't have as many inquiries.
(06:30):
I don't have as many intakes clients, right?
We get into this spiral of like, it's
not enough.
It's not enough.
And again, personally have been there and I,
you know, we come in and out of
that so many times.
And so, when we recognize that we're there,
when we're starting to feel like burnt out,
this is so hard.
I remember early on in like building an
Instagram and all of that, like I would
(06:51):
do it really like intensely for a little
bit.
And then I would ghost for like months
because I'm like, this is too much, too
much.
So, I would say that in that moment,
when you notice you're stuck, when it comes
to creativity, I love thinking about who is
your creative self and what does that look
like?
And so, there I like to start with
like, what did you love to do as
(07:12):
a kid, right?
Let's go back to that inner child.
What did you love to do?
And give yourself some true time and space
to do that.
Now, for me, I'm trained as a music
psychotherapist.
However, my inner child loved to dance.
And so, for me, sometimes if I'm feeling
really stuck, I know like, okay, it's time
to get up.
(07:32):
Like, let's turn on some Spice Girls and
like just dance around and connect in that
way.
Because in order to reconnect, we have to
get back into our bodies.
And I know everyone's hearing, right?
Somatic, using somatic hearing, breath and body, connecting,
but it's so true.
We've got to get back into our bodies
and allowing ourselves to create, whether that is
(07:54):
just free drawing, free writing, something that like
gets all of our stuff kind of connected.
We connect to it and then get it
out into the world in some way, without
judgment, right?
Like, just be curious, see what's there.
And then I think you're going to get
a lot of information about what you want
and where you want to go with your
practice.
(08:15):
I had my own experience with this after
the peak of COVID.
I was so depressed because I'm so extroverted.
And it was, it's just, and I was
overworking.
Nobody was asking me to overwork, but I
thought it was my duty for some reason.
And so I was just, it was all
just too much.
And I was like, I don't know what's
(08:37):
fun anymore.
I don't even have fun.
I don't know what it looks like.
I don't know what to do.
And I did that idea of like, go
back to what you loved when you were
younger.
And for me, that meant, so I went
to a performing arts high school.
So I sang and I acted there.
And so I was like, you know, improv
doesn't require any sort of planning.
I have no space in my life to
plan anything right now.
(08:58):
I don't want to rehearse or learn lines.
I just, so I went for improv and
this idea that it is all in your
body.
Like if ever there was a art form
that you think could be all mind, all
just brain, it could be improv because you
are having to go real fast in there,
but nobody wants to watch two people standing
there having a conversation.
You have to be in your body.
You have to be moving.
(09:19):
You have to be scene building essentially.
And it really brought me back to life,
honestly.
And it like sparked more, like I was
driving around more because that's where I did
most of my singing was in the car.
So I was driving around more and I
mixed all audio books and podcasts and was
only listening to music.
(09:39):
And so it's bringing that back to myself,
bringing me back to myself through that creativity
is so instrumental in, in pulling me out
of depression and like feeling more like myself
than I had even in years, like pre
-COVID, I didn't realize how far I'd strayed.
Right.
Oh, it's so true.
And when you're in that movement, like you,
(10:02):
you get into a flow and you get
into this place where actually you're going to
be way more, quote unquote, productive and creative,
right?
You're going to, all these new ideas are
going to come to you, even though you
think I should be listening to all the
podcasts and making all the notes and doing
all the things because that's, what's going to
get me ahead.
But actually no, it's, it's really going to
be this.
Okay.
Letting yourself just, just be in your body
(10:24):
and however that looks for you.
Yeah.
And play.
Like, I think it being a low stakes
thing, especially for folks who are creating practices,
like that's so high stakes and it's so
much pressure that if you can do something
where like, you know, it's not a stage
production that you care about a bunch or
like, you don't have a solo oboe situation
(10:46):
with the symphony.
Like it's just you messing around and if
you screw up, no one really cares.
Like it's just ego.
And then you're like, Oh, well, exactly.
That's about as much pressure as I would
want to put on whatever your creative pursuit
is.
You're not trying to get your piece of
art into the Met.
You're just literally just creating it and maybe
(11:08):
tossing it.
Who knows?
Totally.
You're just creating and you're noticing.
And that's where creativity is a container.
You know, it's a place where you can
like put all this stuff that you might
not be.
So actually it might not be in your
conscious awareness yet, right?
Like subconsciously you might be like, Ooh, I
hate this.
I'm going down a path that doesn't feel
aligned to me.
(11:28):
And that's what's making me feel stuck.
And then the second you, right, you bring
it into creativity, you might be like, Oh,
actually this is what I want to do.
Yeah.
And then it almost like gives you permission
to kind of, let's say you, you do
a lot of work and then you actually
do want to make a pivot.
You're allowed.
You're totally allowed to.
And it's okay.
And that's a really good thing because you're
learning more about yourself.
(11:50):
And, you know, creative, if I'm thinking about
creativity as a container and how it supported
me in my life, you know, I grew
up in a, in a house with many
of us therapists have where we didn't talk
about emotions and you know, there wasn't a
space to, to express it.
And so I like all of my songs,
you know, I wrote a lot of songs
that were just infused with like so much
(12:10):
anger and angst, which if you knew me,
you'd be like, what, like where did this
come from?
Even like reading it, I'd be like, I'm
just making this up, right.
This is not real.
But then when I go back and look
at it, I'm like, Oh honey, like you
had a lot going on in there.
And so, you know, it's this beautiful container
where we can get, you know, so much
information that is being stored in our bodies
(12:31):
that might not be, you know, consciously there.
Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely.
So I think about like, okay, there's this
container that can help us think outside the
box, which can help our businesses.
Yeah.
Cause all that comparing we're doing and like
shiny object chasing and all those kinds of
things.
Like I love a shiny object.
Right.
I love the, I love the promise of
a shiny object.
(12:53):
And then when I'm like, Oh no, this
is just a dull object.
Just like all the others on the shelf
over here.
It's just marketing was good.
Then it's, it's like, Oh, oops.
I just spent a lot of time, energy,
money on something that didn't pan out the
way that I had hoped.
I think about that.
Like if I had spent that same time,
(13:15):
energy, and not even money, but just that
same time and energy, not focusing on the
business, focusing on my life or focusing on
creativity, that, that would have had me thinking
about things differently.
It would have totally like turned on different
parts of my brain that shift perspective and
shift.
Problem-solving.
(13:36):
Absolutely.
Shifting.
It can shift so much and it can,
it can help you think of all these
different ways to approach things.
And also, you know, I think creativity is
one of the most important aspects that actually
helps me connect to my ideal client.
Just like kind of playing around with it.
Cause I think, especially when we think about
marketing and I'm thinking from the lens of,
(13:56):
you know, maybe you're starting an Instagram or
Tik TOK or something like that.
And you're really afraid of like, Oh my
God, like being seen.
I think in those initial stages, you can
get so stuck in like the you, but
like the you being projected outward that it's
really hard to like connect to the client
and embody the client.
But actually when you let yourself get creative
of like, what, what does, what would my
(14:18):
client feel and experience and let yourself kind
of play with that, right.
Play it out.
And of course, right.
Your client is a version of you.
So you're going to be accessing right.
Your own stuff.
And, and honestly, when you do it that
way, then you're going to be, it's going
to be more fun to create, to create
content because right.
We are all creators now and always, but
(14:38):
it's going to be more helpful for you
to, to embody that.
And then to, to find more quote unquote
success or more reach, more expansion in your
business.
When you're able to embody that embody your
client and, and, you know, be able to
speak to them in that way.
Yeah, absolutely.
And I think about it's deeper, right.
(15:00):
It's deeper than like you listing on your
website, the symptoms of depression.
Totally.
Instead, it's like that daily lived experience that
I talk about all the time.
When you describe the daily lived experience, which
requires creativity, it requires putting yourself in your
client's shoes or going back to that time
in your life and thinking it and feeling
it and then describing it, then that's going
(15:21):
to be so much more impactful.
It's going to be so much more alluring
to an ideal client.
Then are you experiencing anhedonia?
Literally, I did this just last night.
I was creating like a post for today
about like, just using some, um, some memes
around people pleasing.
I've started to sit with like, what are
(15:42):
the exact experiences I've had and how can
I, how could I list that out?
And literally the one was when you're, if
you're a people pleaser and you're still hungry,
but there is one slice of pizza left.
Oh my gosh.
Yeah.
It's just that inner, like I can't take
it.
We have to, we have to split it
or you have to tell me 10 times
that you're not going to eat it in
order for me to eat it that, that
(16:02):
how much more of an impact that has
than just saying, right.
Are you, are you a people pleaser listing
that on your, on your site?
And so it's, it's just, it's a fun
exercise to like, yeah, let's just play out.
What are all these different scenarios that I've
experienced myself?
Yeah.
And it sticks in people's heads more.
Right.
I saw one actually this afternoon that was
(16:23):
about people pleasing and it had problems of
dessert left.
It was two people pleasers.
And one was taking like half of the
crumbs and then the other would take half
of that half and then half of that
half.
And it was just like, I mean, that
was hours ago.
And I just thought of it because you
sparked that and that's impactful because it's true.
(16:43):
Yeah.
So true.
We've all been clarity of the truth, but
it's still the truth.
Yeah.
So what are some other ways that we
can think creatively or bring creativity into our
practices so that they're more fulfilling for us
so that they bring in the right clients?
Yeah, absolutely.
You know, I think, I think letting yourself
have like a, what is your creative practice?
(17:04):
So I think it starts with getting in
touch with your, you know, your inner child.
What does your inner child like to do
and building creativity into your daily, your daily
practice, whatever that is.
I think a lot of people go towards
writing and journaling, but, you know, maybe it's
your walk.
Like you take a walk and then you
just notice because a walk is kind of
a place where you get into flow and,
(17:24):
and you can kind of, that's where big
ideas come or, you know, when you take
a shower or something like that, but just
having like an awareness of what's there, right.
What's coming up.
What do I, how do I want to
infuse this into, into my practice building.
And then when it comes to your work,
there's so much power of using creativity inside
(17:45):
of the therapy room.
You know, creativity in many forms is there
are levels of what we call aesthetic distance
around creativity.
So something like, let's say your client is
feeling a little bit stuck and you know,
you're, maybe you're talking around a topic for
a while, but you want to give it
a new form, give it a different shape
so you can kind of understand it a
(18:06):
little bit deeper.
So I may say to a client, I
know we've been talking about this feeling and
we're not exactly sure where it comes from.
Why don't you just take a minute and
create an image of like, what does it
look like if you were to make it
look like something?
And sometimes we'll do this with parts work
too.
Like what does this part look like?
And so when we do art, art is
(18:26):
kind of gives us the most distance, right?
It's kind of like, we have a little
bit more control around what we're doing.
It's not so embodied.
So that's kind of a nice place to
start when you have a client who's not
so ready to get into their body yet.
And then, you know, we can bring music
in and music has levels of the distance.
One way it could be like, you know,
what song are you feeling connected to today?
I love that question.
(18:47):
It's kind of a nice get to know
you.
Cause I've had, you know, many clients who
will come in like similar to me, like
smile.
I'm great.
And they share the saddest song I've ever
heard already, right?
This is so much information about the client
before we've ever even, you know, dived in
to a history.
(19:08):
So that music in that way can, can
have more of a distance when it comes
to, you know, to the body, you know,
just doing breaths, guiding your clients into, I
have a ritual with many clients of starting
the session with three breaths.
And that's kind of the check-in of
like, what are you noticing coming up?
So instead of just diving into, this is
what I did this week.
(19:28):
We start right with the body, like drop
on in, see what's there.
And of course, these are all practices that
you can obviously take yourself to when you're,
you know, doing this, this work.
And then, you know, deeper than that, sometimes
the, the art.
And for me, a lot of times it's
music can be like an incredibly reparative piece
(19:48):
of the process.
So if we're like kind of deep in
some attachment, like early developmental stages, bringing in
the voice and perhaps even singing to a
client, which, you know, this comes from being
a trained music therapist.
I know not everybody can do this, but,
but knowing that, you know, being able to,
to offer these pieces can be really reparative
(20:10):
and, and music kind of, or music and
art, all the, all of the arts bring
like third element into the room that we
can put stuff on it.
So it's just a little bit easier to
play with.
Given where our clients are in terms of
their own kind of openness, vulnerability, it's kind
of a way to dip your toe in.
Let's put it over there.
Let's put this anger part over there because
(20:31):
it is way.
It's not safe yet to hold in my
body, but I can hold it.
Right.
I can put it on this piece of
paper.
I can listen to it in this song.
There's right.
So many ways to play and to play
with material with creativity.
I love that.
I didn't know what I was doing at
the time, but that was pre-masters.
I worked at a residential treatment center for
folks with eating disorders.
(20:53):
I've somehow was allowed to run groups.
I don't know exactly, but whatever.
I loved it.
I did so much research before every group,
but I was like, I would really love
everybody to bring in a song that describes
how they feel.
So kind of what you were saying.
And it was, it was so informative and
so heart wrenching, heart wrenching.
And because we feel songs, you know, like
(21:15):
the good ones, we really do feel them.
And it was something that actually helped build
some empathy between some of the group members
who didn't necessarily like each other very much
that they could connect.
Totally.
Oh yeah.
It's such a huge piece of, of connection.
Yeah.
So much, so much information.
(21:36):
And I would, anybody that's listening, I would
let you like, think about what is a
song you're feeling connected to today and listen
to it and notice like, what is it
telling about where you are?
What do you notice in yourself could be
pretty, pretty powerful.
Yeah.
And I noticed like myself, as you asked
that granted, I'm in interview mode, I'm not
fully sunk in, but I'm like, I have
no idea.
(21:56):
And that's good information too.
I'm disconnected and it's just information until after
this call, maybe like, yeah, exactly.
And what I love about that too, it
like it's a quick, right.
It's a quick thing that you can do
to sink in.
It doesn't have to be a whole, you
know, 45 minute yoga session.
Like it can be just like, okay, let's,
let's sit with that and, and see what's
(22:18):
there, listen, check in.
And that's where you can maybe start to
write or find another way to, to process
what's there.
And, you know, even just like those three
breaths, I always say like, if my clients
could take anything, just let yourself do those
three quick breaths, especially at moments during your
day, right.
Or maybe you're sitting at your work desk
and you're feeling really overwhelmed, take the three
(22:39):
breaths, see what's there and then kind of
move forward.
Like any way where we can just like
quickly drop into the body is, is huge.
What else should we as therapists be considering
for our creativity, not even for our clients,
but just for ourselves?
Are there other things that we can add
on top of what we've talked about?
(23:00):
That's a great question.
And I guess it's, it's very, um, oh,
you know, one thing I love to talk
about is resistance.
Like take a look at your resistance, um,
especially to creativity.
And I will say as a music therapist,
I am so resistant to making my own
music.
So resistant to it.
(23:22):
And even in my own, as a client
at, you know, in music psychotherapy, that's always
been my thing.
We'll say like, let's play around it.
And I'll be like, I don't want to
make me do it.
But so much of that is around like,
am I feeling my own vulnerability and my
own sense of, am I feeling safe is
whatever's happening because when you're entering music, right,
(23:44):
you are getting vulnerable.
And especially in that space, right.
It's vulnerable.
It's intimate in front of someone else.
And so, so really noticing if, if you're
wanting to get creative, if you've noticed like,
Ooh, my inner, uh, my inner child loves
to paint or this and you're resisting it
back in on that, like, what is that
(24:05):
for you?
Because what are you trying to not dive
into?
What are you not allowing yourself to open
up?
Have you read the book, the war of
art?
If not, it talks a lot about resistance
and creativity and how like, it's always going
to be there and let's just accept it
and do it anyway.
Kind of, yeah, we can understand it.
(24:26):
And we can learn a lot from like
what's creating the resistance, but ultimately it's the
doing of the thing that's going to keep
us moving forward.
Totally.
Yep.
Yeah.
It's an, it's an interesting book.
Um, it kind of takes up some of
the things people assume is just kind of
like the nature of art and it is
more about the discipline of sitting your butt
(24:46):
down and doing it, which applies so intensely
to your practice.
You are always the queen of just do
it, like just sit down and do it.
And that, right.
That's so important.
Are you, where are you resisting in your
practice?
What are you avoiding and let yourself just
right.
Sit down and get into the act of
(25:08):
creating whatever it is that you are needing
to create and build.
Yeah.
And I think for, for people like me
who lean I'm much better now, but I
have leaned much more towards the perfectionistic in
my life than the opposite really full permission
for it to be bad.
Yeah.
I was in an art therapy group as
(25:29):
a client in my early twenties and they
had, you know, it was like all a
bunch of perfectionists and they had us use
our non-dominant hand for all the art.
And it was so helpful because I wouldn't
have been able to let myself off the
hook.
Otherwise I had to have this excuse for
(25:50):
why it was bad.
And so like, if anybody needs to use
that, if that's so great.
Yeah.
Let yourself do that.
And you know, this just came to me
too, as a fellow, a fellow perfectionist in
what you're creating in your practice, what you're
building.
I think I touched on it a little
bit earlier, but allowing yourself to build something
(26:13):
and then let it go.
I did a one-on-one with you
maybe a couple of years ago around.
And when I was in the inner circle,
I did a lot of work around building
a coaching practice that was like specific for
brides.
Cause I had just gone through like a
COVID pandemic wedding.
And I was like, this was so stressful.
Brides need support.
I still think it's a great idea.
(26:34):
However, then I got pregnant and you know,
I had to let it go.
I had no, I had no space for
it.
And I felt so guilty of like, I
can't, I did all this work.
I can't there, but it no longer was
creatively aligned with what I felt passionate about
what I wanted to spend my time doing.
And like, that was such a hard lesson
to learn that you can create, you can
(26:54):
build and continuing to tune into what is
what's right for you.
And so that has like taken a whole
new form now it's, you know, and, and
I wouldn't be where I am without that
version of me having built that because now
I'm building on that and remembering that too,
that whatever we create, it's not for no
reason.
And that you're going to continue to build
(27:15):
upon it and build upon it.
And it's all going to grow and shift
and change.
Your practice is going to grow and shift
and change.
You're going to grow and shift and change
as a clinician.
And so that's what I love about creativity
is giving us that permission to shift and
change and, you know, be many versions, many
forms of ourselves and our businesses.
Yeah.
It's so hard to let go when you
(27:35):
invested time and energy and love, you know,
like you wouldn't have invested all the time
and energy if you hadn't loved the idea
that creative misalignment that ends up happening for
many of us.
It's an important question.
If you keep holding on, like, what's it
for?
Yeah.
What's it filling for you right now?
There was a time when it really filled
something for you.
What's it feeling for you now?
(27:58):
Totally.
Which is so, such an important question to
sit with.
And, you know, I think there's a lot
of resistance there, right?
The resistance to let go.
Yeah.
Because there's grief there and that makes us
kind of sit with some icky feelings that,
you know, hard to do, but that's again,
right?
Where are our, let's listen to the song.
Let's take a breath.
Let's move.
(28:18):
Comes in to help us feel and work
through those emotions in order to let them
move through us.
And then, and then be let go because
if they don't, then they're going to get
stuck and then we're going to get right
into that process of being stuck in our
heads and feeling overwhelmed and overworked.
So it's all interconnected.
It is.
It is.
(28:38):
Oh, thank you so much, Megan.
Of course.
Thank you for having me.
Yeah.
Where can people follow you or get in
touch with you if they want more?
Yeah.
So easiest place to find me is on
Instagram at connect with Megan M E G
A N and you links to everything else
is there too.
Wonderful.
Thank you so much.
Thank you so much.
(29:24):
Let's help all our colleagues build what they
want.
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