Episode Transcript
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Peter Bowes (00:00):
Certainly in the
case of Steve Wright.
I've heard stories that arevery, very similar to mind about
his kindness, about hisgenerosity, about his giving
nature.
Peter Allison (00:11):
Isn't that a
fantastic way to be remembered?
To be remembered as somebodywho is so kind.
That's fantastic.
Peter Bowes (00:19):
I'm glad that's the
way that is being remembered,
because it is so justified.
And you know, I say try tolet's make this conversation a
little bit relevant to what wenormally talk about, and I think
what is coming home to me, whatit's brought into focus, is the
value of friendships and justquite simply, the value in our
lives of the other people thatare in our lives.
(00:43):
Hello again, welcome to theLive, long and Master Aging
Podcast.
My name is Peter Bowes.
With me is Peter Allison.
We were friends at school inEngland 50 years ago.
We went out of separate waysmidlife, but now, thanks to
social media, we have regularconversations and the past few
(01:07):
months have been talking aboutour shared interest in human
longevity, how to optimize thenext chapter in our lives as we
well, I guess hurtle towards ourmid sixties.
We are now both well into our Ithink this is right, isn't it,
peter?
Our seventh decade.
Peter Allison (01:25):
Yes, my next
birthday, as I guess yours will
be 63.
Peter Bowes (01:29):
Yeah, my birthday
is actually coming up soon, just
a few weeks time.
So my ex birthday is 62.
So you're a little bit ahead ofme.
You're a little bit ahead of me, but what's a few months when
you get to your seventh decade?
So, peter, this episode isgoing to be a little bit
different.
We're going to talk about grief, loss, bereavement and, I hope,
(01:50):
try to put it in context, thecontext being what we usually
discuss on this podcast, andthat is living a long,
purposeful, hopefully healthyand fulfilling life.
We've both suffered losses inrecent weeks and, peter, I was
very sorry to hear about thepassing of your mum.
It was just before Christmaswasn't it?
Peter Allison (02:12):
Yes, yeah, yes,
my mother died on.
She died on Christmas Eve.
Peter Bowes (02:17):
I am extremely
sorry about that.
The loss that I've suffered hasjust been in the last few days.
Last week and if you'relistening to this, in the UK,
Steve Wright was a very goodfriend of mine.
We worked together on BBC RadioOne and later on Radio Two.
He was a broadcaster, a DJ.
He was much more than a DJ.
(02:38):
He was a great interviewer, butabove all Steve was a really
good friend.
He was on the air for more than40 years.
We'd known each other for 30years and he sadly passed away
at the age of 69 last week.
It was very sudden and justlooking at the outpouring of
(02:59):
grief, the way that people inthe UK have been remembering
Steve of course largely peoplewho'd never met him but had
listened to him for many, manyyears on the radio.
He was someone who meant anawful lot to a lot of people and
we certainly I'm going to misshim tremendously.
We remained friends afterworking together every day, the
(03:23):
crack of dawn, six o'clock inthe morning, seven o'clock in
the morning, we were on the airwith a breakfast show, and then
I moved to America and we stayedin touch and whenever I came
back to the UK, we, if we could,we would get together, and the
last time I saw him was justlast year.
We had a I could describe it asa deliciously long lunch.
You know, it's been a goodlunch and a good conversation.
(03:45):
When you suddenly look aroundyou, peter, and you realize that
the restaurant is completelyempty and you are the only two
people there, and that's thekind of experience you'd have
with Steve.
We would talk about life andnews, and he was very interested
.
He loved America, he lovedCalifornia.
We would talk about everythingand he was kind hearted, he was
supportive and he was one ofthese people who always wanted
(04:08):
to know about you.
He was a larger than lifecharacter.
There was much to talk aboutgoing on in his life, but he
always wanted to know how youwere doing, and I remember when
I launched this podcast in 2017,I told Steve about it and he
was immediately very encouraging, asked me to come on his show
(04:29):
on radio to to talk about it.
I did that, and his solepurpose there was just to help
me.
He just wanted to help with aventure that he also found
interesting.
So I'm really going to Miss ourconversations.
I think that's the thing that'sthe most difficult to come to
terms with that.
I will never talk to him again,and there's always something I
(04:51):
think you might reflect this aswell there's always something
that you kind of regret thatbecause you maybe didn't
completely finish a conversation, there was something else you
wanted to say.
There was there was more to bedone in the future, and
certainly steve was a veryforward looking person.
He was full of ideas and that'sone of the things that would, I
think, result in these verylong conversations over lunch
(05:13):
that he was an ideas person.
He always had something that hewanted to do in the future and
we just Share those ideas.
So it's been tough to come toterms with and I suppose trying
to bring some context to thisand maybe make it relevant to
what you and I Often talk aboutpeter is bringing it into focus
(05:33):
and how I am going to rememberwho was, someone who was a very
good friend in the future, and Ithink it is through the
inspiration that he brought tome and to my life and I think
that's how I will, in a positivesense, move forward and think
about him.
Maybe how would, in a difficulttime, hold steve of dealt with
this?
We all go through difficulttimes.
(05:55):
But some people I think perhapsI'm better at dealing with it
and bouncing back and certainlysteve was one of those people
that you just need to have ashort conversation.
He used to call me quite a lotout of the blue.
It's quite funny really was oneof these people.
He would never say hi, steve,hello, he would just launch
straight into whatever was onhis mind.
(06:15):
It was almost as if he wastalking mid sentence and how it
would come, and then a longconversation would result and we
would talk about whatever hewas thinking about and maybe put
the world to rights.
But it was always a positiveexperience and I think that's
the thing that I'm going to missmost.
Peter Allison (06:33):
Yeah, I was
listening to the listening to
you there and I was justthinking about how, how a
society has changed overhundreds of years from what it
was going back to Severalhundred years or a thousand
years ago, when you'll be livingin a small village, in a small
group of people and you knowsomebody would pass, pass on,
(06:55):
and so you grew up familiar withthe process.
You would have grown, you wouldhave been more connected to
people who were whose lives arecoming to an end and whose lives
had ended, and you'd have thatconnection and you'd see other
people deal with it and it getsto it.
And I think now we live so muchmore sort of distinctly defined
(07:15):
lives that we sort of.
I guess, as you and I aregetting older, we see more of
that and we come into morecontact, but I wonder if we are
perhaps less.
We have a society which isgeared towards life and yet
death is the most natural thingon earth.
So I'm just thinking about howwe deal with it and I just think
(07:37):
it's so easy, isn't it?
When you think about how youdid want to deal with, how you
deal with death, there are, youknow, if you're talking to
somebody, somebody else.
It's so easy for people to cangive you little bits of advice
and yet those bits of advice canbe.
I sometimes think if the peopleare giving you advice it's like
helps the person who's givingyou advice.
Peter Bowes (07:56):
it might not
necessarily help the person
who's grieving and grieving sucha personal thing to so many
different people and we justdon't get very much preparation
for how to do it do we don't andI guess that's the nature of
life and aging, that clearlywhen you're younger and
(08:16):
thankfully you don't have todeal with with death at least
most of us University that's notalways the case and some people
do have to suffer tremendousloss at a younger age.
But generally your older and Ithink the one, if you're looking
at a positive here just beingolder and the wisdom that comes
with being at a certain age doeshelp you deal with loss and
(08:39):
bereavement.
And when it's someone who is,is very old and has lived a good
life, clearly it is easier todeal with.
It is that the celebratoryaspect of that person's passing,
the celebratory side being thelife that they learned and the
good that they did and thefriendships that they Nurture
(09:00):
during their lives, that'seasier to accept.
But when someone is younger andcertainly steve's guy sixty nine
years old, is, is very young todie, and especially when it is
a sudden death that's when it isit is more difficult because
there's the kind of if only inyour mind, if only that person
had survived to continue leadingthe good life.
(09:22):
And there's always somethingand this is perhaps irrational,
but there's something in yourmind if only I'd known or I
could have helped there's.
There's no sort of rationalthinking that, because clearly
my situation With someone likesteve's there's nothing you
could have done, but thosethoughts go through your mind.
I kind of rambling here becauseI think that maybe just reflect
(09:44):
the difficulty that we face inthat we don't, as you say, have
the, the training.
That sounds a little tooclinical, but we don't have the
preparation to deal with withsudden loss so I'm a.
Peter Allison (09:56):
I have a tendency
sometimes to be, I guess,
compulsive about things andobsessive compulsive.
I have a slight tendency to beobsessive compulsive To the
extent that.
So, when you're talking about,was there anything I could do?
I've led a number of studentfield trips to coasts and cliff
environments or outdoor placeswhich are notionally have a
(10:17):
level of risk or hazardassociated with them, and so you
know I have to produce thesedocuments, and it's not just
producing the documents, butit's actually running a field
trip and trying to make surenobody gets hurt.
And so what my level ofcompulsion is?
Sometimes, if I see a possiblerisk or if I see a student doing
(10:38):
something which I perceive asbeing risky, I have to tell them
.
And if I don't tell them, then Ifeel as though maybe I'll be
responsible, I'll have a levelof responsibility if something
goes wrong, and that sort ofspills out into all sorts of
aspects of my life.
You know I can sometimes, if Isay that's a potential risk, I
can see something going wrongwith that.
I have to tell somebody,because if I don't, I'll be
(10:59):
responsible, and then that canmake other people, who are the
people I'm telling, can get very, very annoyed about that, and I
think I've had to learn that I,you, know where my
responsibility stops, becauseotherwise I can just shoulder so
much responsibilities forthings that aren't really my
responsibility.
So I have to learn not to dothat and to be very careful
(11:23):
about drawing the boundaries andI wonder if that impacts upon
the way that people grieve aswell as to know where just what
you take.
Oh, if you're thinking aboutregret, what you take, what bit
of that regret you're going totake ownership of, and what are
you gonna just leave alone?
Peter Bowes (11:40):
And I think that's
a very individual thing, isn't
it?
And every situation isdifferent in terms of who the
person is that you've lost, how,really, how close you were to
that person, and I think there'sa certainly the husband with me
.
There's a learning processafter the loss, when you think
deeply about what someone meantto you, and certainly in the
(12:04):
case of Steve Wright, I meanit's an unusual case because he
was so famous and so well knownand many, many people in the UK
have been paying tribute, andyou must have seen a lot of the
news coverage and I've beenlistening to stories from people
who've had very similarexperiences to me.
And as you go through life andas you nurture a friendship, you
(12:26):
don't necessarily talk about itor maybe even process yourself
what it means to you in thatmoment.
It's after the fact that maybeyou begin to think about it.
But I've heard stories that arevery, very similar to mine about
his kindness, about hisgenerosity, about his giving
nature, to the point that Ithought at one point, how on
(12:47):
earth did he have time for allof us?
And he was that kind of personthat did seem to have time.
As I say, the conversationswere very long.
They were very nurturing andenjoyable, and so many people
seem to have had the sameexperience.
So, as I say, this is anunusual situation because he was
well known, but you don't haveto be talking about a famous
(13:10):
person for this, I think, toresonate.
We all go through our lives andhave different kinds of
relationships with lots ofdifferent people.
Peter Allison (13:18):
Isn't that a
fantastic way to be remembered?
To be remembered as somebodywho was so kind.
That's fantastic it is.
Peter Bowes (13:27):
I'm glad that's the
way that is being remembered,
because it is so justified, andI say try to let's make this
conversation a little bitrelevant to what we normally
talk about, and I think what iscoming home to me, what it's
brought into focus is the valueof friendships.
I mean just quite simply, thevalue in our lives of the other
(13:49):
people that are in our lives.
Peter Allison (13:52):
Yeah, I mean, I
was struck by that.
I used to, you know thinkingabout, if you think about our
own epitaphs just being to beremembered as somebody who was
kind would be a wonderful thing,and I guess then the thought is
, you know, if it's a wonderfulthing, then you know, bring it
(14:16):
to pass, you know, by grabbingthe opportunities to be kind, I
think.
Do you think that kindness inour society is something that is
undervalued?
Peter Bowes (14:27):
I think it is and I
think it is underappreciated
because, well, maybe because welive in quite a cruel world, we
live in a difficult world, avery difficult world at the
moment.
If you look at the wars thatare taking place, if you look at
(14:48):
the discord in nations like theone that I'm in the United
States, the bitter politicalrivalry that's going on at the
moment, how people seeminglyhate each other, and that is
coming out in social media and Imentioned at the beginning you
and I thankfully talk nowbecause of social media.
(15:11):
There are some positive aspectsto it, but there are some many
negative sides as well, and Ithink human kindness is often
lost these days and there's akind of vacuum that is there to
be filled, and it's difficult,and it's a struggle to think how
to, to try to rediscover thosebasic values that perhaps were
(15:35):
more prevalent at a differenttime.
If you were asked to sum upsociety these days, kindness
isn't necessarily the word thatwould first come to mind.
Do you think?
Peter Allison (15:47):
that perhaps that
kindness of you think about the
sorts of human, face to facehuman interactions, the whole
range of face to face humaninteractions which in common,
saying kindness is one of them,and then the, the antithesis of
there as well.
But if you just thinking aboutsocial media, you know, but I
mean like the, the sort of likethe sound bites social media of
(16:11):
the, rather than, as we are now,just at least having a face to
face conversation, but in soundbite social media you think that
just a pretty much excludeskindness.
It's almost like a filter whichexcludes kindness largely I
think I'd encourage you andseems to let the negative things
come through.
It's either negative or neutral.
(16:31):
It doesn't seem to transmitkindness.
Peter Bowes (16:33):
I think you're
right.
I think perhaps it's becausekindness is More of a slower
emotion.
Kindness kind of flows and youabsorb from other people
kindness.
But the world that we live inand relating this to social
media is a sort of now, now, now, as you say, sort of sound bite
either your pro or anti, youlove something or you hate it,
(16:57):
and that's the basis of a lot ofthe dialogue that we see.
I mean, this isn't exclusive.
There are clearly examples ofkindness that around there.
I'm not saying that we'reliving in A hundred percent
cruel world, far from it.
There are lots of wonderfulpeople out there.
But I think the on the surfacewe live in this kind of almost
(17:20):
clinical world where peopledon't express it, don't express
their appreciation of Kindnesswhen they see it for all.
We do have people like Stevearound us and many others that
perhaps we're not noticing thekindness in people in the way
that we should.
Peter Allison (17:39):
Yeah, I mean, I
just say that I'm almost
wondering about whether it's theimpact of the other, the the
sort of spread of a kind actseems to be a fraction of the
spread.
All the notoriety let's putthat we have a headlines, the
headlines of a kind act is afraction of the headlines of a
(18:00):
known kind act.
Peter Bowes (18:01):
That's a really
good point.
And is this saying in news thatif it bleeds it leads Bad news
trumps good news any day andthat's my work in news.
It's always been a frustrationto me that the worst of
headlines are the ones that willbe most prominent.
The ones that are about deathand destruction are the ones
(18:24):
that we will read about and andthe sometimes good reason for
that because atrocities,attention needs to be brought to
them and sometimes that'ssomething awful that's happened
will actually result in kindness.
It'll get the message out andhelp people galvanize support
for whatever scenario we'retalking about.
(18:46):
But but generally, you're rightthat we don't trumpet good acts
and kindness in people as muchas we tend to hear about the the
negative things that arehappening this world.
Peter Allison (18:58):
Yeah, yeah, me, I
guess.
So looking at movies andlooking at soap, soap.
So much emphasis on the killercome back.
Isn't there the killer commentwhich is the strike back?
There is so much on that whichis the antithesis and that just
(19:19):
bleeds into the.
That's the role model behaviourfor everybody that's growing up
to think of that killercomeback comment rather than the
comment that douses the fire.
Peter Bowes (19:33):
And I think I guess
you're reflecting something
that's not real life here, thatsoap operas and movies, that
they're scripted for drama and Iknow people who don't watch
soaps anymore because they'realways shouting at each other,
it's always negative, they'realways arguing, and we could
(19:54):
list British soap operasespecially that.
That seems to be the sentimentand not really what you and I
can hopefully expect in reallife.
One thing I'm just interestedin talking to you, peter, about,
is how we measure someone'slife as a whole.
(20:15):
We've talked a lot aboutkindness here, but you and I on
a regular basis talking aboutlongevity yes, hopefully staying
as healthy as we can, living along, purposeful life and I'm
just wondering, going through mymind, is the long is fine, but
perhaps the purposeful and, yes,the kind is actually more
(20:36):
important?
It's how you've lived your liferather than the quantity.
It's quality rather thanquantity.
Peter Allison (20:43):
Yes, yes, I do
think so.
I mean I, you know, you comeacross various people over the
years who tragically die youngbut have led tremendously kind
and fulfilling and impactfullives, that are humbling in the
things that they've achieved.
And when I say achievement, I'mnot necessarily saying you know
, they're just some of thethings of just like bringing
(21:06):
great calm to people and beingkind to so many people.
Yeah, and I think it's becauseof the conversations that we've
had, it's just so easy to focuson that.
Longevity is a number, butyou're right, it's the impact
and the kindness and the purpose, because that's what people
remember.
People won't remember you asdying, as being a very, very old
person.
(21:26):
They'll remember you as beingvery, very kind, like Steve
Wright.
Peter Bowes (21:30):
Yeah, they'll
remember you for what you were,
and I'm wondering do these kindsof experiences, do they and
it's a phrase that we hear quitea lot do they make you want to
be a better person for all thereasons we've been talking about
?
And, in reality, does anythingever actually change in your own
mindset?
Peter Allison (21:50):
I these
conversations.
Funnily enough, I've beenthinking about this for the last
couple of I've been well, I'veoften thought about this because
I'm always I'm a very selfcritical sort of person.
I've been reading online aboutthe meditations of a Roman
emperor, marcus Aurelius.
(22:10):
Have you come across him?
Peter Bowes (22:13):
I have not no.
Peter Allison (22:16):
All right.
So the.
He was often regarded as beingthe last good emperor, and so
he's a.
He was a stoic, so he has a hewrote.
What's really interesting is hewrote a series of meditations
which were not meant to bepublished.
He was the emperor, he was themost powerful man in the world.
He didn't need to publishanything, so they were just his
(22:38):
own notes to help him be abetter person.
And there are things they'renot like about how I'm going to
take 13 legions and invadeGermania.
It was, you know.
It's about life and how, whatthings he was going to take
notice of.
And I've been reading about MonLaine.
So I'm getting, I've got hisbook, the book meditations.
(22:59):
That's arriving tomorrow, soI'm going to start reading
through that.
And some of that's about, Imean, and I think some of it,
from what I've been reading, isseems to be very relevant for a,
for a world with social media,and it's about being involved in
social media stories, or, or,or, or, or, or, or or.
You know I hesitated to use theword gossip, but you know, be
(23:22):
involved in things that you'vegot no influence or influence
over, then why have anyinvolvement in them?
Why let them impact upon you.
Just just focus on the thingsthat you can impact upon and try
to live a better life and be abetter person.
So, anyway, that's, I want toget this book and I'll have a
read of it and, if I think it'sany, and I'll tell you what I've
(23:42):
learned.
Peter Bowes (23:43):
I look forward to
it.
And you just spark one thoughtin my mind and I think it's a
good one about how, you know, wecan disparage social media.
I think we can see the good andthe bad, and I think one of the
skills and one of the skillsI'm I'm still learning, we're
probably all still learning ishow to shut it out, is how to
ignore it.
It's there, it's there allaround us, it's on our phones,
(24:05):
our phones are constantly infront of us and it's and I think
I'm probably getting a littlebit better of the filtering
process to try to concentrate onthose things that are really
important and to try to, as Isay, just kind of ignore all of
the rubbish that when we wereyoung, when we were at school,
didn't exist.
(24:25):
We weren't, we had nodistractions.
I often think wouldn't it havebeen great if we, you and I had
had the internet when we were atschool?
Just imagine that resource forrevising and for education?
But then I think, well, maybeit was just as well we didn't.
Peter Allison (24:40):
Well, you know,
in my line of business I can say
some of the wonderful thingsabout the internet.
You know, I was talking to somestudents earlier on this week
and about how to do a, how tofind papers on a subject, the
publication, scientificpublications on a subject.
And 30 years ago, my goodness,you'd go and you'd be looking in
the library, you'd be, you'd bereading papers, chasing
(25:02):
references.
You'd look, I think it's, therewas a, there was a science,
some version of the sciencecitation index thing that you
could go and chase, which was abig annual book.
It would take you days to dowhat I can now do with a few
mouse clicks.
You know, I mean, it was justyeah.
So there is massive benefit inbeing able to being able to find
(25:22):
information.
But, like you, in terms of mymobile phone, I try to leave my
phone in a different room Once.
Once I get it five or sixo'clock, I put my phone in a
different room and I try.
Otherwise it's so addictivejust picking it up and looking
at the latest thing.
You know, which I don't need toknow.
Peter Bowes (25:40):
Yeah, I'm totally
with you.
Peter Allison (25:42):
It's um
destructive.
Peter Bowes (25:44):
Peter in the let's
end this on a looking forward
note and maybe we'll pick thisup in our next conversation, but
we left off last Decembertalking about our aspirations
for the coming year and we'refocusing here on health and
fitness.
How I know you've gone througha difficult time.
It's been rough for me the lastcouple of weeks, but how are
(26:06):
you in terms of thoseaspirations?
I know I talked about perhapspicking up running again, which
is actually something I did do.
I'm not doing it as frequentlyas I would like, but I am doing
it on a regular basis andactually finding it quite tough
going.
I'm surprised how difficult Ifind running a couple of miles
now, compared with what Iremember of running when I used
to do it a lot and longdistances 20 or 30 years ago.
(26:28):
But Positively, I'm doing itand I hope to at least achieve
that 5k in the next few months.
Peter Allison (26:36):
Brilliant.
I just in the room to Christmas.
I've got my gym going back upto speed.
I started using the machinesagain, so I'd started that, so
that was starting to look good.
I was feeling pleased.
And then I just had a couple ofweeks off, so I'm having to
pick that back up again.
But I've gone back up.
So I'm doing the starting onthe card, you're starting on the
machines, so I'm back intopicking it up.
(27:00):
When will I start running?
When there's a little bit lessrain.
I think it's really cold andunpleasant at the moment and the
place where I'll go and run isvery, very muddy.
So I'll start running, but I'mback at the gym at any rate.
I've just got to keep on goingback and I've got to lose a bit
more weight, because I think Iwas, I've been comfort eating,
(27:20):
and so I have to just take agrip of that and try and lose a
bit of weight.
Peter Bowes (27:25):
I'm with you on all
of that, including the weather.
I mean, I'm in California andeveryone usually sort of looks
jealously upon me because theyassume it's wall to wall blue
skies and sunshine.
We've had the El Nino weatherpattern I think has caused this.
We've had a tremendous amountof rain.
And here we are, in the middleof February.
Went for my early morning walktoday.
My hands were freezing andwe've just had three days of
(27:46):
continuous rain, so there's lotsof mud around here as well.
Peter Allison (27:51):
The temperature
this morning was 11 or 12
degrees and then in the space ofthree hours it dropped by seven
degrees and now we've got aspell.
So it was unseasonably warm forthe last 10 days, which was
very nice, and now it's justgetting back to people saying
it's getting cold, it's gettingback to just normal February
weather.
That's what it's getting backto.
Peter Bowes (28:12):
Here we are, being
very British and talking about
the weather again.
That's probably.
Peter Allison (28:16):
Peter.
Peter Bowes (28:16):
That's a good way,
I think.
Let's end it here.
This has been a usefulconversation, cathartic, I think
, I would almost say.
I really appreciate yourthoughts.
We will talk again soon.
Take care.
Peter Allison (28:29):
OK, look forward
to it.