Join us in this thought-provoking episode as we explore the potential of how advertising agencies could help combat the epidemic of mass shootings in the US. We sit down with Pete Lerma, founder of LERMA, and Sarah Allen, principal of brand planning, to discuss how creative minds in the ad industry can raise awareness, promote responsible gun ownership, and drive meaningful change. Tune in to discover the power of advertising and an invitation to turn awareness into action. This problem is not new, but in the last two decades, the continuous random acts of violence have been outrageous, especially in our schools. As allegedly one of the world's most influential organizations (at least that's how we make ends meet) ad agencies and communication conglomerates need to push for a solution or solutions by organizing and assigning resources to the problem. #StopGunViolence #StopViolence
Please do comment on this episode and spark the conversation. The website on the episode is stopgunviolence.info please go, click and speak up!
Guest: Sarah Allen Principal of Brand Planning at LERMA/
Guest: Pedro Lerma CEO of the LERMA/ Agency HQ in Dallas, Texas
Producer: Rolf Ruiz, Digital Strategist, Creative Technologist & Agricultor at LERMA/
Host: Francisco Cardenas, Principal of Digital Integration at LERMA/
Music: Pedro Lerma and the Band, LERMA/
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Fear is part of why we think some people act out, we as
Americans have solved some really complicated problems,
right? I think yes, guns are part of
American culture, but so is innovation.
So, is this kind of unrealistic audacity to believe?
(00:20):
We can solve things and do things?
We can't only talk about all or nothing.
It's, that's not a way forward. We are the masses.
We have a voice and I think hearing from all people who care
about this gun owners and non-gun owners, right?
(00:41):
Republicans and Democrats parents and non-parents if we
can get elected officials to realize that even within their
own party. There is enough momentum on
something. They will move.
You know, it's not that we have to take everybody's guns away
(01:04):
and it's not that we cannot, youknow, refuse to consider that
somebody's mental state could bea factor in this.
It's yeah, it's all of those things that need to be
considered it. Do we need to put more armed,
security in schools, Welcome to loud and clear the
(01:33):
podcast. For those who give a shit about
advertising on this occasion, this episode has come together
on the mist of yet. Another tragedy related to guns,
resulting in a mass shooting in Nashville on Monday this week.
Yet again, here we are. Today we have on one side, Pedro
larimar, founder of larimar, agency and activists, in many
fronts, including this one in May of last year.
(01:55):
After they involved shooting, hemade some statements on average
that spoke about the action we can take as individuals and as
agencies to help solve this problem.
We as an ally is, he were motivated to do something
horrified by the Las Vegas Massacre back in 2017 when we
created stop gun violence. Doc info which allows you to
(02:17):
contact your representative and give him ideas on how to stop
this. A digital bridge, if you will to
influence or leaders somehow on the other side, we have the
brilliant, Sarah Allen, she is aprinciple of brand planning here
at Lerman. She has a psychology background
from the University of Texas. Maybe that is why she is so good
(02:39):
at what she does and has been anadvocate of doing something
about this situation. Read last year's article of
people knowledge. She cares and she has rallied
agencies to take some action in the loveleen accounts on brand
planning like the Home Depot andavocados from Mexico.
But again, sadly here we are. So let's start with the
(03:03):
question. What is happening in this
country and what can add agencies do to sway?
The horrific Behavior hate? We have to be here talking about
this, but it's important. Yeah, thank you for putting it
together. Well, thank you for coming
Friday on this tough week for Sowhat's happening in this
(03:24):
country? We start feed sure.
Well, I think there's division, there's polarization.
I think people feel marginalized.
You know, we talked about some of the things that seem to be
motivations for these horrific events whether that's, you know,
(03:47):
race issues white supremacy or whatever whether it's religious.
Division. Whether it's, you know, in this
case there, a lot of people pointing to the fact that the
shooter was transgender and I guess I tend to want to go back
to those are maybe identities that people take on, but the
(04:13):
real motivation I think has to do with them feeling
marginalized. And so, I mean, it's kind of
weird to think that, you know, awhite Male in America could feel
marginalized but I think they'veheard a lot from people trying
to influence them, that makes them feel like they are being
(04:34):
marginalized, like they're underattack in some way.
And unfortunately, you know thatI think that fear results in
really negative behavior and at the most extreme, it's, you
know, it's kind of lashing out. Against that fear.
And so, I see that really is theroot of bit calmer nicely the:
(05:00):
possibly. Yeah.
Yeah. I think fear is an important
piece of the puzzle, right? Fear is part of why we think
some people act out, we fear is also what drives a lot of the
divisiveness. We know that words in headlines,
that create negativity and fear,get more clicks.
(05:23):
Get more money right? Which stood fuels a media system
that pushes us towards more extreme views because that's
what gets highlighted, right? We know also that fear is often
a driver of gun purchases, right?
A lot of the conversation around.
Gun ownership is about self defense and protection.
(05:43):
So I think on all sides, fear has become an important
motivator to creating the systems we have today that have
created this very unique. Unfortunately, American problem.
And frankly is only continuing to create more fear, right?
Because now, we're all afraid. We're afraid to send their kids
(06:05):
to school and not get them home again.
We're afraid to go to work or tothe grocery store because we
don't know what will happen. And so it's, we've got to find a
way, in my opinion, to slow downthe fear response enough that we
can talk about practical solutions to the problem.
So we think of roles, I mean, I agree you like, fear is needs
(06:27):
people to do crazy stuff. So you think if we try to Define
what good at agencies do as theycome together, and as super
influencers in this country, would you say that would be one
of the check marks? How do we downplay certain
(06:48):
topics, that generate Mass fear in the United States?
Yeah, I think we To recognize our role in shaping culture,
right? As you said, advertisers and
marketers are super influencers of our culture.
And we have to recognize, we've been part of building the
American culture in the ideal ofmasculinity and the ideas of
freedom and what that looks likeand guns are part of that story
(07:09):
for better or worse and we need to think about how can we
reshape what that looks like? I think we also need to think
about our use of shock tactics in communicating.
What we've learned in our research over the last year is
that often leads to overwhelmed paralysis, right?
And not necessarily productive conversation.
(07:32):
What advertising people are really good at is understanding
humans, right? And I think one of the things we
can do is get to the root of what do we understand about
humans, and share that with people in a way that humans can
connect to and hopefully that can get us past some of the kind
of shocking. And extreme dialogue to a place
(07:55):
where we can talk about real solutions in the middle.
So, where are we failing? Because this is not new right?
As I read the tower, shooter University of Texas back in the
70s. Then I know I went to UT as
well, you remember my first yearit was Columbine very shocking
(08:15):
for me. Coming from Mexico City to see
that. Yeah so it's been, you know,
over 30 40 years that we've had this problem, we have the best
communicators in the world Wouldsay that's where I ended up
staying in this country of just because of how well we are
communicating and not only on commercially, but storytelling
(08:38):
Hollywood has been right? What, where are we failing in
generating change? Yeah, well I tend to think about
what we do and I talked about itin the adage article, we're in
the business of persuading people and as an agency We have
all collectively decided that our vision is to channel,
(09:02):
creativity for good and a big part of what that means is that
the work that we do. We need to put through the
filter through a filter that is we are not trying to manipulate
people. We're trying to use to persuade
them but that persuasion needs to deliver to them.
Some value of value, price and quality.
(09:27):
Utility in their lives or we talk know, we need to when they
encounter our work, if we can put a smile on their face or
make your move them emotionally and the right way, that's,
that's what we should do, right?And when I think about, you
know, the headlines that Sarah just talked about how they get
(09:48):
more clicks, and it's like, to me, that's that is a bottom
feeder mentality on how to persuade people, right?
You can Put politics, you see all the time, you can convince
somebody that somebody else is the reason for their situation,
whether they don't feel like they made enough money in their
(10:09):
life. Well, it's somebody else's
won't, right? And it's easy to get them to buy
into that idea and again that's just bottom feeding and I think
from a media perspective we've gone the same route I think as
humans. Yes, there's that shock.
There's that fear that would Drive us to click but I think is
(10:30):
is Media Outlets. We need to find a way to
persuade them to take it high orlow.
There is a, there's a higher path to delivering the
information. The news that needs to be
shared, I think, is advertisers,or is people in the advertising
industry, we have to do the samething.
And here, I think we've got to find a way to move people to
(10:54):
action and That action can take many forms.
We've talked about political action, so reaching out to your
elected officials in. Convincing them, that there is a
middle ground on this issue. You know, it's not that we have
to take everybody's guns away and it's not that we cannot, you
(11:16):
know, refuse to consider that somebody's mental state could be
a factor in this. It's yes, it's all of those
things that need to be considered it.
You know, do we need to put morearmed security?
In schools, I said in the article, I don't care, I don't
care what solution is applied, as long as our children are made
(11:40):
safe, as long as we don't have to put them through the trauma
that they're being put through. And even if, if there isn't a
mass shooting at your kids school, they are being
traumatized because they hear about them every day.
Day. They have to do drills.
I saw in this natural shooting the body, cam footage from the
(12:01):
police response and luckily the there was a Carnage there that I
didn't see any deal. That's all students.
It was horrible, it was Police officers who were clearly on on
high alert, there was stress in their voices.
(12:22):
They were talking to one anotheryelling, you know, go here, I
got this, you get that walking through walls of how the ABCs
and kids drawings. Yes it was.
It's awful and endure. Imagine that any school in
America could be where these officers are having to run
(12:43):
through, you know, a heightened alert with Assault rifles is is
awful and we should not stand for it.
It shouldn't be the norm and it is and when the other things
it's just sad to me is that we have become desensitized to it.
(13:04):
So, you know, every once in a while, we will pay attention to
the most recent mass shooting, in this case, we're paying
attention to it once again because it's Elementary gives
39, year old children died. In the worst way.
And it's, it made us pay attention.
Again, we need to, we need to, we need to make it clear to our
(13:27):
elected officials. That this is something that has
to be addressed. I saw a headline from a
representative from Tennessee who said we're not going to
solve this. He said, criminals are going to
be criminals and I thought, well, then why have any laws in
place for anything? Criminals are going to be
(13:49):
criminals. It's a ludicrous response.
There have to be Solutions and we have to make them accountable
for those Solutions. And so I think if we can find
the high road to getting people,to pay attention to this issue,
and to act on this issue and theforce, our elected officials to
(14:09):
find Find Solutions in the middle again.
I don't I don't need a solution from either extreme the right or
the left. I need a solution that's going
to keep the kids safe and not just kids.
But, you know, anybody out thereis scared about this.
It's a public safety issue. It's not just a school issue,
(14:31):
but, you know, that's when we tend to pay the most attention.
Yeah, I think one of the things that we, as communicators can
With is this framing of this issue as a left and right?
I think what we've learned is, the majority of people who want
safety, they want their kids to come home and they agree on some
(14:52):
basic things that we can do to make the world a little safer,
particularly our country, in ourschools, a little bit safer.
And you know it's very human forall of us to have our busy
lives. Go to work, go to school, soccer
practice, make dinner all of those things.
And so, it feels very overwhelming to also be engaged.
In a big way on issues, we care about and all of the issues,
(15:13):
right? It can feel like a lot, but I
think one of the things we've given up by not be engaged, not
taking the initiative to call our reps and whatnot, is that
voice and providing to our Representatives, our opinion.
And right now, our opinions actually do align quite a bit,
(15:34):
right? It's something like 90% of
people agree that we can do Universal background checks over
80%. We that we can do things like
red flag laws, which is not the greatest term for it, but allow
us to processes in place to remove guns from a dangerous
situation, right? Most of us agree on those
things, we need to use our voices to talk about that so
(15:56):
that those opinions that majority gets heard and not the
Very extreme we can't do nothing.
Take all guns away. Those, that's what gets heard
right now again, because we've got a system that moves towards
extreme moves towards It's clickbait.
We've got to take the initiativeto at least say something out
loud. Right?
(16:16):
Yeah. I mean that was hearing people
talk and he was saying, you know, I don't care what it is,
I'll do whatever. And then I was hearing talking,
I say well, is that a lack of organization, a lack of
agreement on what we could do and then I hear you saying and
we all agree, right? We all agree on certain things.
So, what if we bring that back to, how could we So how could we
(16:40):
do our part more than what we'vedone, which is building is a
video bridge between your your place of living or your place of
work to your representative. What else can we do to say?
Hey if we all agree with this, Why can we not just take the
action or punished with the boat?
(17:01):
Which is not, it's clearly not happening.
Because again, if we go back to,this is not a problem that just
happened on Monday, right? It's been something that's
happened. Several elections.
So I think some of what we have to address is the sense of I
guess defeatism right. A lot of people feel like, well,
my voice doesn't matter. My one vote won't count
depending on where they live, that feeling might be super
(17:23):
hungry clothing, or not. Yeah.
But I think what we know is thatthat's not true, right?
And and back to what Pete was saying, we have, we as Americans
have solved, some really complicated problems, right?
I think yes, guns are part of American culture, but so is
innovation. So, is this kind of unrealistic
(17:46):
audacity to believe? We can solve things and do
things? Why not apply that level of
energy and that level of Hope toa complicated problem.
This, that is also we can do it,but we have to believe that we
can do it and that's what feels lacking right now.
In are fairly divisive narratives that's happening
(18:07):
around us. I think, introducing again, that
idea that we can do it, we agreeon more than we disagree on, but
put in the work to solve it. That to me is maybe I could help
us. Turn the tide and move more to
action versus just, what feels like screaming at each other.
I think another part that we have to figure out is People
(18:32):
vote on a variety of, on a variety of issues.
So somebody might absolutely be willing to accept gun regulation
but when it comes time to vote, they think to themselves.
Well, I don't want this to be a socialist country or I hate Joe
(18:54):
Biden or whatever that is. And so they end up voting one
way and and then That reinforcesto those elected officials on
that side of the aisle. That that's because the issue
is, okay, write the rule. And then, you know, that
everything they stand for is, is, you know, in the right
place, right? And that's important.
(19:16):
It's and I don't know how to separate that or, you know, how
to say, Okay, I want to be fiscally conservative or and I
want to be, you know, socially conservative.
But yes, I want to keep our kidsfrom I'm getting shot right now.
There's no political way to do that, and I think we really have
(19:38):
to find ways to separate the principal from the party, right?
We've got to start talking aboutthe individual issues, it's all
nuanced. And we have to be able to get
into the details of we're going to solve a problem, we can't
only talk about all or nothing. It's, that's not a way forward.
And so I think being able to separate these, are the
(19:59):
principles that I hold. As important to be and then I
value and communicating those. So maybe you did elect somebody
that you agree with on 90% of the things.
It's okay to say, hey, you're doing a great job on those 90%
but we got this 10% over here. Yeah.
That I'd like to talk to you about, you know?
Yeah. And it's something that we've
talked internally about and applied this term to it.
(20:24):
I don't know if somebody else has used, his term are not but
psychological calculus is a Turnthat I used here that if we can
get elected officials to realizethat even within their own
party, there is enough momentum on something they will move
because their priority is to be re-elected.
(20:47):
It is not, I don't know that anyof them have really truly held
convictions personal convictionsas much as I'm going to act in a
way that will get me re-elected.And so, If there's a way to get
messages to those elected officials, you know, when I send
that message to an elected official, my guess is somebody
(21:10):
in their office. Looks up to see what political
party I'm on. And then it might go in the
trash. If the elected officials on the
other side of the party, are ahead of the political Spectrum.
But if if there were a way to say to these elected officials,
these are people talking to you.That are members of your own
(21:32):
party and they want you to behave differently than you
behaved before. I think that would make a big
difference that would change that psychological calculus,
that would make those elected officials do what the American
people want. And we know the American people
want to solve this problem and they're willing to make
(21:52):
compromises on both the right and the left in order to solve
this problem, I will live. This big change has been
considerably. Exercise, I don't think there
was a change right while they were Paso in.
There was not a punishment vote in Ohio, I don't think there was
a vote punishment, New Year's Eve.
Like, I wonder what it takes, right?
(22:13):
It doesn't take to see your kidsdying.
Yes, we believe a letter or we believe, punishing with the
boat, but what it, what is it? What is it?
What will it take? And again, what can we do about
it? I think I think the votes will
have to change for it to really I think Are going to have to
feel it politically before they're willing.
I think what Pete's talking about that they have to see
(22:35):
where the masses are going. But that's that's something we
have control over, right? We are the masses.
We have a voice and I think hearing from all people who care
about this gun owners and non-gun owners, right?
Republicans and Democrats parents.
And non-parents I think all of those people have to talk about
(22:58):
we need to find a solution at the same time.
Right. Otherwise, it continues to feel
like a niche issue, right? But there's a lot of gun owners
who like our voices have kind ofbeen silenced.
We care, you know, they want safety, that's part of why they
own guns, right? They but they, they haven't
really been heard. They sometimes get written off
(23:20):
because they own a gun and especially here in Texas.
Really, we're not going to talk to you, because you're but most
of us own guns, right, smoke alarm.
More than more than ever gone. Owners will to go to the middle,
right? I'm going to say, I don't need
them here, 15. I just want my 40 caliber and
(23:41):
like, you know, my 3030 right well and even then some of them
would say I'd like to keep my AR-15 but I'm willing to accept
a more rigid thorough background.
Yeah, process. And that's a way in registering,
you know, right? So that we know that those
weapons aren't in the hands of Volatile people and I'd like to
(24:03):
think that people who own guns and are familiar with guns.
Probably have some really innovative solutions on how to
make those guns safer, right? They probably have a good idea
of what is practical about a licensing or safety course
rightmost in a lot of families who have guns and they're
(24:23):
teaching their kids about guns. Their first conversation is
about safety. Their first, they employ they're
trying to Part of onto their kids, when they teach them about
the stuff that, like, this is a big responsibility and you need
to be safe almost every gun owner, I know does that.
And so, they could even give us ideas right on how we might be
(24:44):
able to solve this. And so, relegating entire groups
of people to outside of the conversation is not going to get
us to a mass. We need change Movement, we have
to, everybody has to be in it together for us to get to seeing
It's change. We're seeing elected officials
(25:04):
change their actions, right? I think we did see a little bit
of that starting to happen. John, cornyn helped with the
federal legislation that was passed after Uvalde for some of
us. It wasn't far enough for others.
It was too far but what we saw was an elected official from
Texas making it a priority because he knew and he mentioned
(25:27):
that those of us from Texas werehighly affected, right?
By that event. And so I think you can see a
change, but it's got to be, we can't silence part of our voices
and still expect the majority tobe heard and do you know the
specifics of what it was that hesupported?
Well, it was the new federal legislation that helped reduce
(25:49):
the amount of loopholes, in our background check system, helped
fund some programs for schools, and communities around
prevention and looked At some ofour domestic violence loopholes
because we know domestic violence is such a big piece of
the puzzle when it comes to gun violence.
I don't know, all of the details.
But those are a few of the things that helped move us along
(26:12):
in the conversation. And I think, at this point,
small steps are steps. We can take small steps.
Yeah. Yeah.
Promises promises. So speaking of progress, the
article Advantage came out in May 29 May of last year, 2022, I
know we took action and trying to organize agencies and people
(26:34):
from the industry. Can you talk a little bit of the
success, the challenges? What are we doing?
And what are we lacking as an industry to get better at this?
And really make an impact and continue the conversation, not
only on a week like this. But on a week when there's no
shootings hopefully, or days of there's no shootings because
(26:57):
this this needs to be an ongoingeffort, what are those
challenges that you're seeing orwhat are you liking from that
initiative would what can we do,right?
Fork, organize better when I started you sure.
Okay. And I think we need to be open
to what we're not liking becausethe goal of this is not to
(27:20):
praise Joe. As much as help each other
become better. Yeah.
What we found out in trying to tackle, this is that it's really
hard. We want, we started with wanting
to look for in promote solutionsthat were acceptable to the
(27:42):
masses. So that meant we had to be in
the middle. It wasn't that we were going to
come out completely against guns, or That we were going to
come out and say, well, it's a mental health issue because
that's you know, what sometimes gets pointed to.
We wanted to find Solutions in the middle and that's hard
(28:02):
because you know, what happens on both sides I think is any one
of those that we might think is an acceptable solution, they
start to see as a slippery slopeand that's the language that is
used by lobbyists, right? So the gun lobby He says, well
any gun legislation is a slippery slope to them.
(28:26):
Taking away your guns and And soit just gets really hard.
We got lots of people who are interested who committed to
being a part of helping solve a,you know, or create a solution
to this challenge but we I thinkwe had a hard time finding what
(28:49):
what is that Morgan? I say, how do we tackle that a
level where we're getting peopleto move to take action and Reach
out to their elected officials. Do we get people to take action
at a local level? Is do we create a another
lobbying organization that counters?
(29:11):
You know what we think today is opposition to any movement on
these issues and put, simply do we create a lobbying entity that
essentially pulls the rug out from under the NRA?
NRA has essentially bought, you know, all kinds of politicians
(29:34):
will could we go to those same politicians and say, look, we
will match or exceed the contribution, you're getting
from the NRA. So you're not losing any money
but we need you to vote on some of these sensible Solutions.
And again, it's a super complex issue and and so we haven't made
as much progress as we'd like towhere are some of those action
(29:57):
items on the the least two duelsor I think we the problem is
from very practical side of things is picking the one thing,
right? We know, we have limited
resources. We know we all have jobs and
that slows it down, right? Because this is kind of a
passion project on the side and not always something that we can
(30:18):
focus on. So we feel like we need to
prioritize. So picking what's most important
can be a little bit tough. I think what we have found in
this is we should use our best strengths as a marketing
organization. Sorry marketing and Advertising.
Experts to do to prioritize right there are lots of people
as Pete, said who already do a wonderful job lobbying who have
(30:41):
done a lot of research. So, we've talked about ways that
we can increase their awareness of what they're working on,
giving them platforms. We've talked about Community
programs and and helping to fundor pull resources towards
Community intervention programs and whatnot.
So, I think there's a lot of possibilities, and it's about
(31:02):
choosing NG Juan and kind of going after it.
I think the one that we have gravitated towards is what we're
talking about today which is most of us agree.
But most of what we hear about is the more extreme version.
So how can we give people that encouragement to continue to do
what they are capable of and their own lives to make
themselves heard? Because that's how change will
(31:24):
happen? Because the AMA or or any
communication organization joined the effort, No way that
Sky help rally more than troops into one that what I've seen
from those organizations is kindof come and gone, right?
They have like moments where they put out statements and
whatnot but I don't haven't seenas many kind of sustained
(31:46):
efforts there. I, you do, there are kind of new
entities that are that are starting, like start with us,
which is all about, how much we agree.
And it's more of a communications platform for the
ways in which we agree on this issue and others.
You have you have gun owner Groups that are creating their
own platforms. To say, we actually gun owners
(32:08):
for gun safety, right? We agree that we want to make
progress. And so I think we see new voices
who are using media and interesting ways.
I don't know, we haven't had a bunch of organizations at the
kind of industry wide level reach out.
It's been more individual people, or individual companies
who have reached out and are helping us at this point.
(32:28):
That's where we are. I will say that I'm really proud
of the fact that we Involve people from both sides of this
issue. And will I would say that we're
listening to one another? I think that's important, that's
unique over roof, I think so. And so then, you know, a lot of
what we have talked about, even this idea of a slippery slope,
(32:51):
that was something that was shared by somebody who is very
much, a gun enthusiast. And, and we can valued his input
and will continue to And it was helpful to hear it and to hear
what made it feel like a slippery slope and what concerns
he had, right? Because some of us didn't know
(33:13):
that and it had a very differentview of different perspective on
it so I think sharing perspectives is really important
but it takes time but I think it's something that we're
learning to do well and it's helped us.
I think come too. Solutions and actions that we
can all feel good about and feelreasonable again, our Instinct
(33:35):
sometimes, especially as advertisers is to go towards
shock value to go towards the most extreme because it
sometimes feels the most persuasive, right?
The end there has been beautifulwork on this topic, right?
Beautiful Communications with the empty school buses and the
graduating class that didn't actually graduate, right?
(33:56):
Those are beautiful. We just hope that an empty
classroom. Yeah.
Well nurse ocean but I think Forus learning when to use those
types of persuasive messages andwind to create that sense of
empowerment. Instead of defeat is an
important part of this. That's how we create this
sustained, effort that you're talking about, right?
(34:19):
We need outlets for that anger and the despair.
But we also need that encouragement to keep talking
about it to keep making it a priority.
And I think that's where we're learning to find some balance on
their last episode. Were interviewing Brianna
Johnson, who's the founder of pledge for 13 on diversity,
(34:39):
equity and inclusion. And one question I asked her and
I feel like I need to do that here as well.
Is, are these folks or group of people that do not want change?
Are they taken advantage of or fragmented efforts in other way?
You know, on our lack of organization?
Like, I think there's a lot of movements happening, right.
(35:03):
But I think one of the the things that I'm here is, if we
do not unite in those efforts and kind of aligned, at least
for a period of time, hypothetically to see if that
moves the needle, Yeah, I'm going to keep winning their more
organized than us, right? Yes I think we see that in a lot
of places on a lot of different issues.
I think perfect that whole phrase perfect is the enemy of
(35:27):
progress is very true in this kind of case, we look at what
our final end goal is and prevent us from taking the small
steps that will get us there. We want to go straight to the
end. We want to go straight to
everything is solved in perfect.And I think one of the most
important things we could do is,okay, what's the first step?
We could all take. Together and go from there like
let's make some progress versus no progress.
(35:53):
Yeah, I don't know that I would Suggest or classify that there's
a group of people who don't wantprogress on this issue.
And the statistics show that most people want reasonable
answers to this problem. And the problem is we want to
(36:14):
keep people safe. We want to reduce gun violence
and whether you are a gun clutching person on the right or
you're, you know, Personal left,wanting to take, everybody's
guns away. You still want the same outcome
and, you know, like, you know, some of the people that we've
involved, who are gun enthusiasts.
(36:36):
They want their children safe just as much as I do, of course.
And so, I don't think there's really anybody fighting against
that. Yeah.
Against keeping people against it.
We sold. Yeah.
It's they're fighting against some of the things members here,
right? Yes, the method.
Yeah. Very good distinction though but
(36:57):
because that's when we start writing off people, right?
We've got to talk about what ourmethods we can agree to because
we all have the same goal. Yeah.
And you see you know, it's easy to go to your your memes you
know your memes say things like you.
Love your AR-15 more than you love my kid or whatever and
(37:18):
that's not necessarily true, right?
It's a it's a complicated issue,you know?
Like this, this guy that is in our group, who's a gun
enthusiast, I believe passionately that he cares about
(37:38):
all of our kids and that he wants the good guy, real
solutions to this problem and not that he's prioritizing
clinging to his guns. And I think we've got to, we've
got to look deeper than the me. Yeah.
But when we talk about agreeing,Of us think that it's hard to
(37:59):
fight or understand what will motivate somebody to walk into a
classroom of nine-year-olds and do what they do.
And our first reaction is to say, well, let's just take the
tool that he uses to achieve what he achieves, you know.
Like if he walks in with a man who the knife or whatever, it's
harder right to for him to do what, what he did.
(38:22):
But that agreement on that hypotheses or on that low
hanging fruit. As we most, as I would say, most
of us here or at least in this room, it's not something that
everybody is in agreement. With and I don't know where that
member of the group stands therebut but but again I I know a lot
of people that receive no that'snot the solution I think.
(38:46):
Yeah I think just like with the conversations around diversity
equity and inclusion what we know what the research tells us
is the more perspectives involved in solving a problem,
the better the solution, right? So right now, even in that
conversation, that example you just gave it's like take it
away. Or don't.
(39:07):
But in reality, there's lots of steps in between that on how we
could prevent that person in that moment from getting their
hands on such a weapon. Right there are age limits,
there are licensing their their safety courses.
They are right. So there's limiting the amount
of ammunition not just the weapon itself, right?
So there's lots of options between take them all away and
(39:32):
don't do anything and that's where we got to get mad.
Right. Exactly even though we're
Texans, we don't have to come and take it, right?
We can, we can find the middle ground of steps that can help
prevent a moment of personal crisis, becoming a mass tragedy.
There's a lot of things going onthere.
(39:53):
There's social actions, we can take, there are safety and gun
based things. We can do that can prevent, you
know, a personal crisis from becoming that kind of tragedy.
So that goes back to what pizza around like the mean, we can't
only talk in two options. There's a there's hundreds of
(40:16):
them, there's probably some we haven't even thought of because
we haven't said unto each other,you know.
Yeah. That's a call those personal
Crisis, get to, but they get something that we're not going
to solve here. Well, I know a lot of us may
never know because we've never had that kind of a crisis.
Putting other countries, I'm sure they have sure.
Sure. And that's it doesn't get to
(40:37):
that. But right, well they a lot of
other countries have taken the route of addressing access to
the tool, right? And some have also taken the
route of at the same time, addressing mental health issues,
right? So I think the point is more and
conversations not or conversations is part of it.
(40:58):
On my to read list is the violence project book which has
studied mass shootings in particular.
Are and what might be causes andpossible solutions.
So if you're interested, there'sone way for we could learn a
little bit more about how we getto that point.
I think it's a very hard thing to imagine if we haven't
(41:18):
experienced those types of issues but there's luckily
starting to be some research that could help us figure out
what those Solutions look like. Okay, well, I think we're going
to time. I know you guys are super busy.
So thank you. Thank you so much.
We're making the time last minute because this was
organized, super fast. It's an important issues and
(41:41):
it's an issue that we know what their mama were trying to take
action. We're trying to do stuff around
it. I've heard marginalized is a big
topic, right? That's a common ground.
I've heard from a paper fragmentation of messages,
right? And then just aligning on
solution, as some of the takeaways that I heard today, I
(42:04):
would love if you make yourself.Available to listeners if they
want to join the project that we're doing for them to reach
out. Yes, please.
Yeah. Just if you have any closing
remarks feel free to what I would say is and just this week,
we decided to take the original,stop gun violence website and
(42:28):
modify it because, you know, originally was the kind of like
his creative platform was The backdrop of the Las Vegas
shooting and when you've all dayhappen, we very quickly try to
update it so that people could use the website to contact their
(42:48):
elected officials very easily and in this week, we did it
again and I hate that I had to think about this in a way that
was how can we make that website, Evergreen the idea that
that we hit it, right? It has to be Evergreen, and it
should always be available because the stuff is happening
(43:11):
is awful. But nonetheless, it's still a
way for people to take action and so I would encourage anybody
that's listening not only to go to that website.
Put in all you have to do is putin your, your home address, it
will pull up who your elected officials are not even your
simple. You can you can either copy the
(43:31):
generic message that we've created.
That is a list of Very Centric, politically Centric ideas, that
that you could suggest to your elected official and you can,
you don't even have to send multiple messages.
You can, you can say, I want to send a message to all 32 of my
(43:53):
senators and one of my representatives and hit send and
it's done. And I would encourage you, if
you, if you end up going there, share it too.
And this is not well, that the Linked UP.
Yeah, and this is not about our agency.
In fact, I hope we don't even have a name on it Williams.
(44:16):
Like the point of this is that should be an industry right
initiative, not a lot, but I think beyond the industry like a
human, everybody needs to be letting their voice be heard and
we tried to create the simplest way.
Way for that to happen. So please thank you.
I the only thing my research nerds self feels like I need to
(44:39):
add that one of our filters. For the policies, we have in
that letter is that they're based in research around, what
can actually be effective in reducing gun violence and
increasing our safety. So, we've tried not only to look
at it from a middle ground perspective, but also in
Effectiveness perspective, whichis something I'm really proud of
(45:01):
and well and hopefully we can align to that but yeah right
that's a start. Yeah exactly.
And then I think just reiterating what Pete said most
of the the divisiveness we feel around this and the lack of
progress is because we feel unheard and are not listening,
right? And we can solve both of those
things. We can make ourselves heard and
(45:23):
we can listen and that to me is the way forward.
Well, thank you really do. Thank you Sarah.
Much love to you guys. Thank you for being here.
Doing this and giving us a chance to talk about it over.
Thank you would use this platform for that and
challenging ourselves as a leading.
These not praise ourselves because there's enough of that
(45:44):
in this business, but challenge yourselves on how can we do
things better? So thank you.
This has been loud and clear again on a difficult week.
We will add the links of the website and do you have any
ideas? Please share, share your ideas.
Comment will also add the links to where you can find Sarah and
(46:06):
Pedro. And into next time, thank you
for listening. Are you can find those in any
podcast platform?
Fear is part of why we think some people act out, we as
Americans have solved some really complicated problems,
right? I think yes, guns are part of
American culture, but so is innovation.
So, is this kind of unrealistic audacity to believe?
(00:20):
We can solve things and do things?
We can't only talk about all or nothing.
It's, that's not a way forward. We are the masses.
We have a voice and I think hearing from all people who care
about this gun owners and non-gun owners, right?
(00:41):
Republicans and Democrats parents and non-parents if we
can get elected officials to realize that even within their
own party. There is enough momentum on
something. They will move.
You know, it's not that we have to take everybody's guns away
(01:04):
and it's not that we cannot, youknow, refuse to consider that
somebody's mental state could bea factor in this.
It's yeah, it's all of those things that need to be
considered it. Do we need to put more armed,
security in schools, Welcome to loud and clear the
(01:33):
podcast. For those who give a shit about
advertising on this occasion, this episode has come together
on the mist of yet. Another tragedy related to guns,
resulting in a mass shooting in Nashville on Monday this week.
Yet again, here we are. Today we have on one side, Pedro
larimar, founder of larimar, agency and activists, in many
fronts, including this one in May of last year.
(01:55):
After they involved shooting, hemade some statements on average
that spoke about the action we can take as individuals and as
agencies to help solve this problem.
We as an ally is, he were motivated to do something
horrified by the Las Vegas Massacre back in 2017 when we
created stop gun violence. Doc info which allows you to
(02:17):
contact your representative and give him ideas on how to stop
this. A digital bridge, if you will to
influence or leaders somehow on the other side, we have the
brilliant, Sarah Allen, she is aprinciple of brand planning here
at Lerman. She has a psychology background
from the University of Texas. Maybe that is why she is so good
(02:39):
at what she does and has been anadvocate of doing something
about this situation. Read last year's article of
people knowledge. She cares and she has rallied
agencies to take some action in the loveleen accounts on brand
planning like the Home Depot andavocados from Mexico.
But again, sadly here we are. So let's start with the
(03:03):
question. What is happening in this
country and what can add agencies do to sway?
The horrific Behavior hate? We have to be here talking about
this, but it's important. Yeah, thank you for putting it
together. Well, thank you for coming
Friday on this tough week for Sowhat's happening in this
(03:24):
country? We start feed sure.
Well, I think there's division, there's polarization.
I think people feel marginalized.
You know, we talked about some of the things that seem to be
motivations for these horrific events whether that's, you know,
(03:47):
race issues white supremacy or whatever whether it's religious.
Division. Whether it's, you know, in this
case there, a lot of people pointing to the fact that the
shooter was transgender and I guess I tend to want to go back
to those are maybe identities that people take on, but the
(04:13):
real motivation I think has to do with them feeling
marginalized. And so, I mean, it's kind of
weird to think that, you know, awhite Male in America could feel
marginalized but I think they'veheard a lot from people trying
to influence them, that makes them feel like they are being
(04:34):
marginalized, like they're underattack in some way.
And unfortunately, you know thatI think that fear results in
really negative behavior and at the most extreme, it's, you
know, it's kind of lashing out. Against that fear.
And so, I see that really is theroot of bit calmer nicely the:
(05:00):
possibly. Yeah.
Yeah. I think fear is an important
piece of the puzzle, right? Fear is part of why we think
some people act out, we fear is also what drives a lot of the
divisiveness. We know that words in headlines,
that create negativity and fear,get more clicks.
(05:23):
Get more money right? Which stood fuels a media system
that pushes us towards more extreme views because that's
what gets highlighted, right? We know also that fear is often
a driver of gun purchases, right?
A lot of the conversation around.
Gun ownership is about self defense and protection.
(05:43):
So I think on all sides, fear has become an important
motivator to creating the systems we have today that have
created this very unique. Unfortunately, American problem.
And frankly is only continuing to create more fear, right?
Because now, we're all afraid. We're afraid to send their kids
(06:05):
to school and not get them home again.
We're afraid to go to work or tothe grocery store because we
don't know what will happen. And so it's, we've got to find a
way, in my opinion, to slow downthe fear response enough that we
can talk about practical solutions to the problem.
So we think of roles, I mean, I agree you like, fear is needs
(06:27):
people to do crazy stuff. So you think if we try to Define
what good at agencies do as theycome together, and as super
influencers in this country, would you say that would be one
of the check marks? How do we downplay certain
(06:48):
topics, that generate Mass fear in the United States?
Yeah, I think we To recognize our role in shaping culture,
right? As you said, advertisers and
marketers are super influencers of our culture.
And we have to recognize, we've been part of building the
American culture in the ideal ofmasculinity and the ideas of
freedom and what that looks likeand guns are part of that story
(07:09):
for better or worse and we need to think about how can we
reshape what that looks like? I think we also need to think
about our use of shock tactics in communicating.
What we've learned in our research over the last year is
that often leads to overwhelmed paralysis, right?
And not necessarily productive conversation.
(07:32):
What advertising people are really good at is understanding
humans, right? And I think one of the things we
can do is get to the root of what do we understand about
humans, and share that with people in a way that humans can
connect to and hopefully that can get us past some of the kind
of shocking. And extreme dialogue to a place
(07:55):
where we can talk about real solutions in the middle.
So, where are we failing? Because this is not new right?
As I read the tower, shooter University of Texas back in the
70s. Then I know I went to UT as
well, you remember my first yearit was Columbine very shocking
(08:15):
for me. Coming from Mexico City to see
that. Yeah so it's been, you know,
over 30 40 years that we've had this problem, we have the best
communicators in the world Wouldsay that's where I ended up
staying in this country of just because of how well we are
communicating and not only on commercially, but storytelling
(08:38):
Hollywood has been right? What, where are we failing in
generating change? Yeah, well I tend to think about
what we do and I talked about itin the adage article, we're in
the business of persuading people and as an agency We have
all collectively decided that our vision is to channel,
(09:02):
creativity for good and a big part of what that means is that
the work that we do. We need to put through the
filter through a filter that is we are not trying to manipulate
people. We're trying to use to persuade
them but that persuasion needs to deliver to them.
Some value of value, price and quality.
(09:27):
Utility in their lives or we talk know, we need to when they
encounter our work, if we can put a smile on their face or
make your move them emotionally and the right way, that's,
that's what we should do, right?And when I think about, you
know, the headlines that Sarah just talked about how they get
(09:48):
more clicks, and it's like, to me, that's that is a bottom
feeder mentality on how to persuade people, right?
You can Put politics, you see all the time, you can convince
somebody that somebody else is the reason for their situation,
whether they don't feel like they made enough money in their
(10:09):
life. Well, it's somebody else's
won't, right? And it's easy to get them to buy
into that idea and again that's just bottom feeding and I think
from a media perspective we've gone the same route I think as
humans. Yes, there's that shock.
There's that fear that would Drive us to click but I think is
(10:30):
is Media Outlets. We need to find a way to
persuade them to take it high orlow.
There is a, there's a higher path to delivering the
information. The news that needs to be
shared, I think, is advertisers,or is people in the advertising
industry, we have to do the samething.
And here, I think we've got to find a way to move people to
(10:54):
action and That action can take many forms.
We've talked about political action, so reaching out to your
elected officials in. Convincing them, that there is a
middle ground on this issue. You know, it's not that we have
to take everybody's guns away and it's not that we cannot, you
(11:16):
know, refuse to consider that somebody's mental state could be
a factor in this. It's yes, it's all of those
things that need to be considered it.
You know, do we need to put morearmed security?
In schools, I said in the article, I don't care, I don't
care what solution is applied, as long as our children are made
(11:40):
safe, as long as we don't have to put them through the trauma
that they're being put through. And even if, if there isn't a
mass shooting at your kids school, they are being
traumatized because they hear about them every day.
Day. They have to do drills.
I saw in this natural shooting the body, cam footage from the
(12:01):
police response and luckily the there was a Carnage there that I
didn't see any deal. That's all students.
It was horrible, it was Police officers who were clearly on on
high alert, there was stress in their voices.
(12:22):
They were talking to one anotheryelling, you know, go here, I
got this, you get that walking through walls of how the ABCs
and kids drawings. Yes it was.
It's awful and endure. Imagine that any school in
America could be where these officers are having to run
(12:43):
through, you know, a heightened alert with Assault rifles is is
awful and we should not stand for it.
It shouldn't be the norm and it is and when the other things
it's just sad to me is that we have become desensitized to it.
(13:04):
So, you know, every once in a while, we will pay attention to
the most recent mass shooting, in this case, we're paying
attention to it once again because it's Elementary gives
39, year old children died. In the worst way.
And it's, it made us pay attention.
Again, we need to, we need to, we need to make it clear to our
(13:27):
elected officials. That this is something that has
to be addressed. I saw a headline from a
representative from Tennessee who said we're not going to
solve this. He said, criminals are going to
be criminals and I thought, well, then why have any laws in
place for anything? Criminals are going to be
(13:49):
criminals. It's a ludicrous response.
There have to be Solutions and we have to make them accountable
for those Solutions. And so I think if we can find
the high road to getting people,to pay attention to this issue,
and to act on this issue and theforce, our elected officials to
(14:09):
find Find Solutions in the middle again.
I don't I don't need a solution from either extreme the right or
the left. I need a solution that's going
to keep the kids safe and not just kids.
But, you know, anybody out thereis scared about this.
It's a public safety issue. It's not just a school issue,
(14:31):
but, you know, that's when we tend to pay the most attention.
Yeah, I think one of the things that we, as communicators can
With is this framing of this issue as a left and right?
I think what we've learned is, the majority of people who want
safety, they want their kids to come home and they agree on some
(14:52):
basic things that we can do to make the world a little safer,
particularly our country, in ourschools, a little bit safer.
And you know it's very human forall of us to have our busy
lives. Go to work, go to school, soccer
practice, make dinner all of those things.
And so, it feels very overwhelming to also be engaged.
In a big way on issues, we care about and all of the issues,
(15:13):
right? It can feel like a lot, but I
think one of the things we've given up by not be engaged, not
taking the initiative to call our reps and whatnot, is that
voice and providing to our Representatives, our opinion.
And right now, our opinions actually do align quite a bit,
(15:34):
right? It's something like 90% of
people agree that we can do Universal background checks over
80%. We that we can do things like
red flag laws, which is not the greatest term for it, but allow
us to processes in place to remove guns from a dangerous
situation, right? Most of us agree on those
things, we need to use our voices to talk about that so
(15:56):
that those opinions that majority gets heard and not the
Very extreme we can't do nothing.
Take all guns away. Those, that's what gets heard
right now again, because we've got a system that moves towards
extreme moves towards It's clickbait.
We've got to take the initiativeto at least say something out
loud. Right?
(16:16):
Yeah. I mean that was hearing people
talk and he was saying, you know, I don't care what it is,
I'll do whatever. And then I was hearing talking,
I say well, is that a lack of organization, a lack of
agreement on what we could do and then I hear you saying and
we all agree, right? We all agree on certain things.
So, what if we bring that back to, how could we So how could we
(16:40):
do our part more than what we'vedone, which is building is a
video bridge between your your place of living or your place of
work to your representative. What else can we do to say?
Hey if we all agree with this, Why can we not just take the
action or punished with the boat?
(17:01):
Which is not, it's clearly not happening.
Because again, if we go back to,this is not a problem that just
happened on Monday, right? It's been something that's
happened. Several elections.
So I think some of what we have to address is the sense of I
guess defeatism right. A lot of people feel like, well,
my voice doesn't matter. My one vote won't count
depending on where they live, that feeling might be super
(17:23):
hungry clothing, or not. Yeah.
But I think what we know is thatthat's not true, right?
And and back to what Pete was saying, we have, we as Americans
have solved, some really complicated problems, right?
I think yes, guns are part of American culture, but so is
innovation. So, is this kind of unrealistic
(17:46):
audacity to believe? We can solve things and do
things? Why not apply that level of
energy and that level of Hope toa complicated problem.
This, that is also we can do it,but we have to believe that we
can do it and that's what feels lacking right now.
In are fairly divisive narratives that's happening
(18:07):
around us. I think, introducing again, that
idea that we can do it, we agreeon more than we disagree on, but
put in the work to solve it. That to me is maybe I could help
us. Turn the tide and move more to
action versus just, what feels like screaming at each other.
I think another part that we have to figure out is People
(18:32):
vote on a variety of, on a variety of issues.
So somebody might absolutely be willing to accept gun regulation
but when it comes time to vote, they think to themselves.
Well, I don't want this to be a socialist country or I hate Joe
(18:54):
Biden or whatever that is. And so they end up voting one
way and and then That reinforcesto those elected officials on
that side of the aisle. That that's because the issue
is, okay, write the rule. And then, you know, that
everything they stand for is, is, you know, in the right
place, right? And that's important.
(19:16):
It's and I don't know how to separate that or, you know, how
to say, Okay, I want to be fiscally conservative or and I
want to be, you know, socially conservative.
But yes, I want to keep our kidsfrom I'm getting shot right now.
There's no political way to do that, and I think we really have
(19:38):
to find ways to separate the principal from the party, right?
We've got to start talking aboutthe individual issues, it's all
nuanced. And we have to be able to get
into the details of we're going to solve a problem, we can't
only talk about all or nothing. It's, that's not a way forward.
And so I think being able to separate these, are the
(19:59):
principles that I hold. As important to be and then I
value and communicating those. So maybe you did elect somebody
that you agree with on 90% of the things.
It's okay to say, hey, you're doing a great job on those 90%
but we got this 10% over here. Yeah.
That I'd like to talk to you about, you know?
Yeah. And it's something that we've
talked internally about and applied this term to it.
(20:24):
I don't know if somebody else has used, his term are not but
psychological calculus is a Turnthat I used here that if we can
get elected officials to realizethat even within their own
party, there is enough momentum on something they will move
because their priority is to be re-elected.
(20:47):
It is not, I don't know that anyof them have really truly held
convictions personal convictionsas much as I'm going to act in a
way that will get me re-elected.And so, If there's a way to get
messages to those elected officials, you know, when I send
that message to an elected official, my guess is somebody
(21:10):
in their office. Looks up to see what political
party I'm on. And then it might go in the
trash. If the elected officials on the
other side of the party, are ahead of the political Spectrum.
But if if there were a way to say to these elected officials,
these are people talking to you.That are members of your own
(21:32):
party and they want you to behave differently than you
behaved before. I think that would make a big
difference that would change that psychological calculus,
that would make those elected officials do what the American
people want. And we know the American people
want to solve this problem and they're willing to make
(21:52):
compromises on both the right and the left in order to solve
this problem, I will live. This big change has been
considerably. Exercise, I don't think there
was a change right while they were Paso in.
There was not a punishment vote in Ohio, I don't think there was
a vote punishment, New Year's Eve.
Like, I wonder what it takes, right?
(22:13):
It doesn't take to see your kidsdying.
Yes, we believe a letter or we believe, punishing with the
boat, but what it, what is it? What is it?
What will it take? And again, what can we do about
it? I think I think the votes will
have to change for it to really I think Are going to have to
feel it politically before they're willing.
I think what Pete's talking about that they have to see
(22:35):
where the masses are going. But that's that's something we
have control over, right? We are the masses.
We have a voice and I think hearing from all people who care
about this gun owners and non-gun owners, right?
Republicans and Democrats parents.
And non-parents I think all of those people have to talk about
(22:58):
we need to find a solution at the same time.
Right. Otherwise, it continues to feel
like a niche issue, right? But there's a lot of gun owners
who like our voices have kind ofbeen silenced.
We care, you know, they want safety, that's part of why they
own guns, right? They but they, they haven't
really been heard. They sometimes get written off
(23:20):
because they own a gun and especially here in Texas.
Really, we're not going to talk to you, because you're but most
of us own guns, right, smoke alarm.
More than more than ever gone. Owners will to go to the middle,
right? I'm going to say, I don't need
them here, 15. I just want my 40 caliber and
(23:41):
like, you know, my 3030 right well and even then some of them
would say I'd like to keep my AR-15 but I'm willing to accept
a more rigid thorough background.
Yeah, process. And that's a way in registering,
you know, right? So that we know that those
weapons aren't in the hands of Volatile people and I'd like to
(24:03):
think that people who own guns and are familiar with guns.
Probably have some really innovative solutions on how to
make those guns safer, right? They probably have a good idea
of what is practical about a licensing or safety course
rightmost in a lot of families who have guns and they're
(24:23):
teaching their kids about guns. Their first conversation is
about safety. Their first, they employ they're
trying to Part of onto their kids, when they teach them about
the stuff that, like, this is a big responsibility and you need
to be safe almost every gun owner, I know does that.
And so, they could even give us ideas right on how we might be
(24:44):
able to solve this. And so, relegating entire groups
of people to outside of the conversation is not going to get
us to a mass. We need change Movement, we have
to, everybody has to be in it together for us to get to seeing
It's change. We're seeing elected officials
(25:04):
change their actions, right? I think we did see a little bit
of that starting to happen. John, cornyn helped with the
federal legislation that was passed after Uvalde for some of
us. It wasn't far enough for others.
It was too far but what we saw was an elected official from
Texas making it a priority because he knew and he mentioned
(25:27):
that those of us from Texas werehighly affected, right?
By that event. And so I think you can see a
change, but it's got to be, we can't silence part of our voices
and still expect the majority tobe heard and do you know the
specifics of what it was that hesupported?
Well, it was the new federal legislation that helped reduce
(25:49):
the amount of loopholes, in our background check system, helped
fund some programs for schools, and communities around
prevention and looked At some ofour domestic violence loopholes
because we know domestic violence is such a big piece of
the puzzle when it comes to gun violence.
I don't know, all of the details.
But those are a few of the things that helped move us along
(26:12):
in the conversation. And I think, at this point,
small steps are steps. We can take small steps.
Yeah. Yeah.
Promises promises. So speaking of progress, the
article Advantage came out in May 29 May of last year, 2022, I
know we took action and trying to organize agencies and people
(26:34):
from the industry. Can you talk a little bit of the
success, the challenges? What are we doing?
And what are we lacking as an industry to get better at this?
And really make an impact and continue the conversation, not
only on a week like this. But on a week when there's no
shootings hopefully, or days of there's no shootings because
(26:57):
this this needs to be an ongoingeffort, what are those
challenges that you're seeing orwhat are you liking from that
initiative would what can we do,right?
Fork, organize better when I started you sure.
Okay. And I think we need to be open
to what we're not liking becausethe goal of this is not to
(27:20):
praise Joe. As much as help each other
become better. Yeah.
What we found out in trying to tackle, this is that it's really
hard. We want, we started with wanting
to look for in promote solutionsthat were acceptable to the
(27:42):
masses. So that meant we had to be in
the middle. It wasn't that we were going to
come out completely against guns, or That we were going to
come out and say, well, it's a mental health issue because
that's you know, what sometimes gets pointed to.
We wanted to find Solutions in the middle and that's hard
(28:02):
because you know, what happens on both sides I think is any one
of those that we might think is an acceptable solution, they
start to see as a slippery slopeand that's the language that is
used by lobbyists, right? So the gun lobby He says, well
any gun legislation is a slippery slope to them.
(28:26):
Taking away your guns and And soit just gets really hard.
We got lots of people who are interested who committed to
being a part of helping solve a,you know, or create a solution
to this challenge but we I thinkwe had a hard time finding what
(28:49):
what is that Morgan? I say, how do we tackle that a
level where we're getting peopleto move to take action and Reach
out to their elected officials. Do we get people to take action
at a local level? Is do we create a another
lobbying organization that counters?
(29:11):
You know what we think today is opposition to any movement on
these issues and put, simply do we create a lobbying entity that
essentially pulls the rug out from under the NRA?
NRA has essentially bought, you know, all kinds of politicians
(29:34):
will could we go to those same politicians and say, look, we
will match or exceed the contribution, you're getting
from the NRA. So you're not losing any money
but we need you to vote on some of these sensible Solutions.
And again, it's a super complex issue and and so we haven't made
as much progress as we'd like towhere are some of those action
(29:57):
items on the the least two duelsor I think we the problem is
from very practical side of things is picking the one thing,
right? We know, we have limited
resources. We know we all have jobs and
that slows it down, right? Because this is kind of a
passion project on the side and not always something that we can
(30:18):
focus on. So we feel like we need to
prioritize. So picking what's most important
can be a little bit tough. I think what we have found in
this is we should use our best strengths as a marketing
organization. Sorry marketing and Advertising.
Experts to do to prioritize right there are lots of people
as Pete, said who already do a wonderful job lobbying who have
(30:41):
done a lot of research. So, we've talked about ways that
we can increase their awareness of what they're working on,
giving them platforms. We've talked about Community
programs and and helping to fundor pull resources towards
Community intervention programs and whatnot.
So, I think there's a lot of possibilities, and it's about
(31:02):
choosing NG Juan and kind of going after it.
I think the one that we have gravitated towards is what we're
talking about today which is most of us agree.
But most of what we hear about is the more extreme version.
So how can we give people that encouragement to continue to do
what they are capable of and their own lives to make
themselves heard? Because that's how change will
(31:24):
happen? Because the AMA or or any
communication organization joined the effort, No way that
Sky help rally more than troops into one that what I've seen
from those organizations is kindof come and gone, right?
They have like moments where they put out statements and
whatnot but I don't haven't seenas many kind of sustained
(31:46):
efforts there. I, you do, there are kind of new
entities that are that are starting, like start with us,
which is all about, how much we agree.
And it's more of a communications platform for the
ways in which we agree on this issue and others.
You have you have gun owner Groups that are creating their
own platforms. To say, we actually gun owners
(32:08):
for gun safety, right? We agree that we want to make
progress. And so I think we see new voices
who are using media and interesting ways.
I don't know, we haven't had a bunch of organizations at the
kind of industry wide level reach out.
It's been more individual people, or individual companies
who have reached out and are helping us at this point.
(32:28):
That's where we are. I will say that I'm really proud
of the fact that we Involve people from both sides of this
issue. And will I would say that we're
listening to one another? I think that's important, that's
unique over roof, I think so. And so then, you know, a lot of
what we have talked about, even this idea of a slippery slope,
(32:51):
that was something that was shared by somebody who is very
much, a gun enthusiast. And, and we can valued his input
and will continue to And it was helpful to hear it and to hear
what made it feel like a slippery slope and what concerns
he had, right? Because some of us didn't know
(33:13):
that and it had a very differentview of different perspective on
it so I think sharing perspectives is really important
but it takes time but I think it's something that we're
learning to do well and it's helped us.
I think come too. Solutions and actions that we
can all feel good about and feelreasonable again, our Instinct
(33:35):
sometimes, especially as advertisers is to go towards
shock value to go towards the most extreme because it
sometimes feels the most persuasive, right?
The end there has been beautifulwork on this topic, right?
Beautiful Communications with the empty school buses and the
graduating class that didn't actually graduate, right?
(33:56):
Those are beautiful. We just hope that an empty
classroom. Yeah.
Well nurse ocean but I think Forus learning when to use those
types of persuasive messages andwind to create that sense of
empowerment. Instead of defeat is an
important part of this. That's how we create this
sustained, effort that you're talking about, right?
(34:19):
We need outlets for that anger and the despair.
But we also need that encouragement to keep talking
about it to keep making it a priority.
And I think that's where we're learning to find some balance on
their last episode. Were interviewing Brianna
Johnson, who's the founder of pledge for 13 on diversity,
(34:39):
equity and inclusion. And one question I asked her and
I feel like I need to do that here as well.
Is, are these folks or group of people that do not want change?
Are they taken advantage of or fragmented efforts in other way?
You know, on our lack of organization?
Like, I think there's a lot of movements happening, right.
(35:03):
But I think one of the the things that I'm here is, if we
do not unite in those efforts and kind of aligned, at least
for a period of time, hypothetically to see if that
moves the needle, Yeah, I'm going to keep winning their more
organized than us, right? Yes I think we see that in a lot
of places on a lot of different issues.
I think perfect that whole phrase perfect is the enemy of
(35:27):
progress is very true in this kind of case, we look at what
our final end goal is and prevent us from taking the small
steps that will get us there. We want to go straight to the
end. We want to go straight to
everything is solved in perfect.And I think one of the most
important things we could do is,okay, what's the first step?
We could all take. Together and go from there like
let's make some progress versus no progress.
(35:53):
Yeah, I don't know that I would Suggest or classify that there's
a group of people who don't wantprogress on this issue.
And the statistics show that most people want reasonable
answers to this problem. And the problem is we want to
(36:14):
keep people safe. We want to reduce gun violence
and whether you are a gun clutching person on the right or
you're, you know, Personal left,wanting to take, everybody's
guns away. You still want the same outcome
and, you know, like, you know, some of the people that we've
involved, who are gun enthusiasts.
(36:36):
They want their children safe just as much as I do, of course.
And so, I don't think there's really anybody fighting against
that. Yeah.
Against keeping people against it.
We sold. Yeah.
It's they're fighting against some of the things members here,
right? Yes, the method.
Yeah. Very good distinction though but
(36:57):
because that's when we start writing off people, right?
We've got to talk about what ourmethods we can agree to because
we all have the same goal. Yeah.
And you see you know, it's easy to go to your your memes you
know your memes say things like you.
Love your AR-15 more than you love my kid or whatever and
(37:18):
that's not necessarily true, right?
It's a it's a complicated issue,you know?
Like this, this guy that is in our group, who's a gun
enthusiast, I believe passionately that he cares about
(37:38):
all of our kids and that he wants the good guy, real
solutions to this problem and not that he's prioritizing
clinging to his guns. And I think we've got to, we've
got to look deeper than the me. Yeah.
But when we talk about agreeing,Of us think that it's hard to
(37:59):
fight or understand what will motivate somebody to walk into a
classroom of nine-year-olds and do what they do.
And our first reaction is to say, well, let's just take the
tool that he uses to achieve what he achieves, you know.
Like if he walks in with a man who the knife or whatever, it's
harder right to for him to do what, what he did.
(38:22):
But that agreement on that hypotheses or on that low
hanging fruit. As we most, as I would say, most
of us here or at least in this room, it's not something that
everybody is in agreement. With and I don't know where that
member of the group stands therebut but but again I I know a lot
of people that receive no that'snot the solution I think.
(38:46):
Yeah I think just like with the conversations around diversity
equity and inclusion what we know what the research tells us
is the more perspectives involved in solving a problem,
the better the solution, right? So right now, even in that
conversation, that example you just gave it's like take it
away. Or don't.
(39:07):
But in reality, there's lots of steps in between that on how we
could prevent that person in that moment from getting their
hands on such a weapon. Right there are age limits,
there are licensing their their safety courses.
They are right. So there's limiting the amount
of ammunition not just the weapon itself, right?
So there's lots of options between take them all away and
(39:32):
don't do anything and that's where we got to get mad.
Right. Exactly even though we're
Texans, we don't have to come and take it, right?
We can, we can find the middle ground of steps that can help
prevent a moment of personal crisis, becoming a mass tragedy.
There's a lot of things going onthere.
(39:53):
There's social actions, we can take, there are safety and gun
based things. We can do that can prevent, you
know, a personal crisis from becoming that kind of tragedy.
So that goes back to what pizza around like the mean, we can't
only talk in two options. There's a there's hundreds of
(40:16):
them, there's probably some we haven't even thought of because
we haven't said unto each other,you know.
Yeah. That's a call those personal
Crisis, get to, but they get something that we're not going
to solve here. Well, I know a lot of us may
never know because we've never had that kind of a crisis.
Putting other countries, I'm sure they have sure.
Sure. And that's it doesn't get to
(40:37):
that. But right, well they a lot of
other countries have taken the route of addressing access to
the tool, right? And some have also taken the
route of at the same time, addressing mental health issues,
right? So I think the point is more and
conversations not or conversations is part of it.
(40:58):
On my to read list is the violence project book which has
studied mass shootings in particular.
Are and what might be causes andpossible solutions.
So if you're interested, there'sone way for we could learn a
little bit more about how we getto that point.
I think it's a very hard thing to imagine if we haven't
(41:18):
experienced those types of issues but there's luckily
starting to be some research that could help us figure out
what those Solutions look like. Okay, well, I think we're going
to time. I know you guys are super busy.
So thank you. Thank you so much.
We're making the time last minute because this was
organized, super fast. It's an important issues and
(41:41):
it's an issue that we know what their mama were trying to take
action. We're trying to do stuff around
it. I've heard marginalized is a big
topic, right? That's a common ground.
I've heard from a paper fragmentation of messages,
right? And then just aligning on
solution, as some of the takeaways that I heard today, I
(42:04):
would love if you make yourself.Available to listeners if they
want to join the project that we're doing for them to reach
out. Yes, please.
Yeah. Just if you have any closing
remarks feel free to what I would say is and just this week,
we decided to take the original,stop gun violence website and
(42:28):
modify it because, you know, originally was the kind of like
his creative platform was The backdrop of the Las Vegas
shooting and when you've all dayhappen, we very quickly try to
update it so that people could use the website to contact their
(42:48):
elected officials very easily and in this week, we did it
again and I hate that I had to think about this in a way that
was how can we make that website, Evergreen the idea that
that we hit it, right? It has to be Evergreen, and it
should always be available because the stuff is happening
(43:11):
is awful. But nonetheless, it's still a
way for people to take action and so I would encourage anybody
that's listening not only to go to that website.
Put in all you have to do is putin your, your home address, it
will pull up who your elected officials are not even your
simple. You can you can either copy the
(43:31):
generic message that we've created.
That is a list of Very Centric, politically Centric ideas, that
that you could suggest to your elected official and you can,
you don't even have to send multiple messages.
You can, you can say, I want to send a message to all 32 of my
(43:53):
senators and one of my representatives and hit send and
it's done. And I would encourage you, if
you, if you end up going there, share it too.
And this is not well, that the Linked UP.
Yeah, and this is not about our agency.
In fact, I hope we don't even have a name on it Williams.
(44:16):
Like the point of this is that should be an industry right
initiative, not a lot, but I think beyond the industry like a
human, everybody needs to be letting their voice be heard and
we tried to create the simplest way.
Way for that to happen. So please thank you.
I the only thing my research nerds self feels like I need to
(44:39):
add that one of our filters. For the policies, we have in
that letter is that they're based in research around, what
can actually be effective in reducing gun violence and
increasing our safety. So, we've tried not only to look
at it from a middle ground perspective, but also in
Effectiveness perspective, whichis something I'm really proud of
(45:01):
and well and hopefully we can align to that but yeah right
that's a start. Yeah exactly.
And then I think just reiterating what Pete said most
of the the divisiveness we feel around this and the lack of
progress is because we feel unheard and are not listening,
right? And we can solve both of those
things. We can make ourselves heard and
(45:23):
we can listen and that to me is the way forward.
Well, thank you really do. Thank you Sarah.
Much love to you guys. Thank you for being here.
Doing this and giving us a chance to talk about it over.
Thank you would use this platform for that and
challenging ourselves as a leading.
These not praise ourselves because there's enough of that
(45:44):
in this business, but challenge yourselves on how can we do
things better? So thank you.
This has been loud and clear again on a difficult week.
We will add the links of the website and do you have any
ideas? Please share, share your ideas.
Comment will also add the links to where you can find Sarah and
(46:06):
Pedro. And into next time, thank you
for listening. Are you can find those in any
podcast platform?
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