June 2, 2025 • 37 mins
In this thought-provoking episode of Embracing Intensity, Aurora sits down with Sheldon Gay, host of the I Must Be BUG'N podcast, which amplifies the stories and voices of Black, unidentified, underrepresented, gifted, and otherwise neurodivergent people. Sheldon is deeply insightful, warm, and grounded in his advocacy to humanize the neurodivergent experience. Together, they dive into the power of mirroring—that magical moment when we see ourselves reflected in others—and how it plays a crucial role in identity, belonging, and connection.
Sheldon shares his personal journey discovering his giftedness later in life and how joining neurodivergent spaces offered a profound sense of home and validation. He speaks candidly about emotional giftedness, navigating systems that often don’t recognize or affirm difference, and the importance of compassion, boundaries, and self-trust.
✨ In this episode:
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What mirroring means and why it’s vital for neurodivergent people
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How Sheldon discovered his giftedness and launched I Must Be BUG'N
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Why IQ tests don’t tell the whole story of intelligence or giftedness
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Emotional giftedness, self-doubt, and how we process emotions
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Compassion and boundaries in spaces where we feel misunderstood
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Recognizing our gifts even when others don’t
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The power of community connection and storytelling
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Insights into upcoming collaborative projects with Sheldon, including neurodivergent-friendly apps
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Reflections on Aurora’s recent blog post on neurodivergent relationships
🔗 Resources & Links:
Whether you’re just beginning your journey or deep into exploring your neurodivergent identity, this conversation is a reminder that you are not alone—and that your experiences, brilliance, and emotions are valid and worthy of being seen.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
There's an opportunity to say, howcan I offer compassion in this space?
(00:04):
If they're not going to take it, ifthey're going to still attack me, then
how do I draw my boundary and my boundary,maybe removing myself from the space.
And so for me, the answer is reallyabout how do I do the work inside
so that I can offer a safe space.
And then, if somebody doesn'ttake the invitation, how do I then
(00:24):
protect myself by doing whatever itis I need to do to protect myself.
Welcome to the EmbracingIntensity podcast.
I'll be sharing interviews and tips forgifted, creative, twice exceptional,
and outside the box thinkers whouse their fire in a positive way.
(00:45):
My name is Aurora Remember Holtzman.
After years of feeling too much, Ifinally realized that intensity is
the source of my greatest power.
Now, instead of beating myselfup about not measuring up to
my own self imposed standards.
I'm on a mission to help people embracetheir own intensity and befriend their
brains so they can share their giftswith the world through the Embracing
(01:08):
Intensity community, coaching, educationalassessment, and other tools to help you
use your fire without getting burned.
You can join us at embracingintensity.
com.
(01:35):
Hello.
I am super thrilled to share thisweek's conversation with Sheldon
Gay, creator of the I Must Be Buggingpodcast that highlights the voices
and stories of black, unidentified,underrepresented, gifted, and
otherwise neurodivergent folks.
Sheldon is incredibly thoughtful,warm, and insightful, and in this
(01:56):
episode we dive deep into the topicof mirroring the powerful experience
of seeing ourselves reflectedback in community and connection.
You can find the full discussionrecording in the Embracing Intensity
Membership and Guest Call Library.
This theme of mirroring and connection hasbeen on my mind a lot lately, especially
(02:19):
after publishing a recent vulnerableblog post on neurodivergent relationships
that really resonated with many of you.
I am also super excited to share thatI'm working on a plan to team up with
Sheldon to explore the developmentof some neurodivergent friendly apps.
Be on the lookout for an upcomingsurvey as I begin working on the first
(02:40):
tool, a streamlined task management appdesigned for A DHD brains like mine.
If I can secure funding and buildthe right support team, I envision,
a whole suite of tools thatmeet real neuro divergent needs.
Something I've dreamed of buthaven't really had the capacity
to bring to life until now.
In the meantime, I'll continue sharing myown musings, interviews and guest speaker
(03:05):
episodes for you to ponder and explore.
Enjoy!
Welcome, everyone.
I'm super excited to haveSheldon here talking to us
about the topic of mirroring.
Thank you guys so much for joining us.
I'm glad to see some new peopleand some familiar people and
people I haven't seen in a while.
I'm going to go ahead and letSheldon introduce himself and
(03:28):
the topic of mirroring and we'llopen for Q& A in the chat, and
then we'll open up for discussion.
So Sheldon, go aheadand introduce yourself.
Welcome.
Thanks.
First of all I'd have to say I alwayslove interacting with this group, as you
said, there's some familiar faces hereand just any of these spaces where we have
(03:49):
the residents that, you know, brings usback like that's super, super special.
And so to tell folks who don't knowwho I am, my name is Sheldon Gay.
I'm calling in from the Philadelphia area.
I, about two years ago now, hadthis kind of aha moment in life
where I realized that I was giftedand it completely changed my life.
(04:10):
You know, I began to reallyunderstand my childhood a lot better.
I began to understand my career, myprofessional career a lot better.
I began to understand.
relationships, whether they be friendshipsor romantic relationships, a lot better.
And so I started on this journey where Istarted a podcast called I Must Be Buggin
(04:30):
where the buggin is B U G N, and it standsfor Black Unidentified Underrepresented
Gifted and Otherwise Neurodivergent.
And I speak about just that, right?
Like I speak about, you know, broadlygifted and otherwise neurodivergent
experiences and making sure that Thoseexperiences are presented in a way that
humanizes us as opposed to one where we'rebeing pathologized or, even Making sure
(04:56):
that these things that are being sharedare stories and not just like something
that you might pull out of a DSM, right?
Like, do not come and listen to me ifyou're looking for these are the top 10
things that You know, autistic peopledo, or this is what gifted and again,
no shot against people who do that, butthat's not what my podcast is about.
My podcast is about sharing these greatstories that are resonant across labels.
(05:21):
And to that point, one of the thingsthat I share with folks is that labels
don't have to feel like pathology.
And for me, that really speaks tothe fact that, labels kind of help
us contextualize our experience, butthey don't have to confine us, right?
So, like, when Lana's talking aboutfeeling boxed in, you know, I'm
gifted, but that doesn't mean, like, mygiftedness is expressed and experienced
(05:43):
in the same exact way as anybody else.
And so, I share the stories, andif it resonates, then You know,
I mean, like, that's the vibe.
And so today's, topic, talking a littlebit about mirroring, that was honestly a
key part of my acceptance, particularlymy acceptance piece of my gifted journey.
You know, when I kindof had my aha moment.
(06:05):
There was a lot of doubt.
It was like, did I kind of likeforce this label upon myself?
Is this really what's going on?
And then I hired a gifted coach andshe was like, look, I'm going to tell
you about a couple of different groups.
I want you to go to those groups.
And you just tell me.
If you feel at home, she's like, I knowwhat I know, but like you go and do that.
(06:28):
And so when I got into thesegifted groups, it was like
walking into, home, right?
I just felt not alone for one ofthe first times, in my life where
the little ways in which my brain.
works, the little ways in which I mightfind something funny the questions
(06:49):
that I might have, the curiosities,the unending curiosities, right?
I felt very much so at home.
And so the mirroring piece and howI'm primarily going to talk about
mirroring today is really aboutwhen you enter into a space and
you feel yourself reflected back.
(07:09):
And that is incredibly important forus as humans because this journey that
we're on called life is fundamentally,a core part of that is this desire
to not want to feel like you are thislike dot floating through existence.
And so when you walk into a space and Yourlight, a similar light is reflected back.
(07:34):
You realize that there is a connectionand that we are all together, no matter
how physically separate like we're allcalling in from different, physical
locations, but there is a genuineconnection here and being able to
feel that is super, super important.
And that again was a big thing for me.
(07:55):
The, quick example that I give.
is, particularly for folks who like me,I mean, maybe when I was younger, there
was some sort of IQ test that I took.
I don't definitively know.
But, you know, for those who may be,self diagnosed or whatever, right.
I had a friend earlier on who said tome, He said, well, how do you know?
(08:15):
Because he was very big on likeIQ being a thing for giftedness.
And I was like, I accept that thereis, some correlation there, but I don't
think that you need an IQ test to know.
And I don't think that, for various,you know, systemic oppression, those
kinds of reasons, why IQ for me isproblematic, but like, you're not even
necessarily getting into that just yet.
(08:37):
For me, when I said to him,I said, okay, we'll look.
If you walk into a room and you saw oneperson wearing a referee's uniform and you
saw another person wearing a footlocker,you know, they worked at footlocker and
they were still wearing their uniform.
How would you tell the difference?
Well, if you went and spoke to them Ithink you very clearly identified which
(09:01):
one is the one that worked at footlockerand which one was an actual referee.
And so if you can go into spaces andfind That instant connection that that
that resonance that for me is enough.
Like I said, you can choose a label,you can fight for your label, you can
get in a diagnosis is perfectly fine.
But for me, I'll recognize when I'mspeaking to the referee, right, like
(09:23):
I'll understand that connection.
And so as long as that is true, that'sthe only thing that really matters to me.
And a key part of that is this mirroringof, again, when something comes up, like,
Do we both get what I call brain sparkles?
Right.
And then, you know, it'sour brain activated.
We get curious about it.
Are we kind of trying to diginto things in a similar way?
(09:46):
And if that's true, that mirroring,is really, really powerful.
And so That's kind of the core of howI describe and would expound upon, what
mirroring is and why it's so important.
And so, yeah, like my work nowis very much so focused on helping
to advocate and bring awareness toour experiences and to humanize our
(10:10):
experiences for those who are struggling.
I mean, I would say youcan look around and.
And you know, many different places,but certainly in political spaces
now, and they're trying to erase andfurther demonize and marginalize us.
And so, my job is to make sure thatthat doesn't happen, like the door
doesn't get closed back to where it waswhatever, 10, 15, 20 years ago, right?
(10:35):
And so I'll stop there.
Right.
But I mean, that's kind of, likeI said, we're a bit about me and
why mirroring is so important.
Awesome.
And there's some gooddiscussion in the chat.
I'll include later.
But if you guys have specificquestions for Sheldon you can go ahead
and put them in the chat as well.
And let's see if there's too bigof a difference between the two
key aspects of IQ, they aren'teven allowed to give you one IQ.
(10:58):
Well, yeah, so the full scale isn't validif there's a lot of inner discrepancies.
On brain sparkles.
I noticed that mirroring ishappening when I use the brain and
sparkle emoji next to each other.
Oh, nice.
Somebody had asked about IQ number,one of the things about IQ number is
it really depends on when you took it.
I mean, obviously there's a lotof cultural factors at play,
(11:20):
like, Sheldon had mentioned.
And for example, I had two differenttests, but I dropped by like 20 points
from when I was a kid to when I wasin college due to a few factors.
One, my executive functioningexpectation goes way, way up.
So I think that impacted itand also I had some auditory
processing stuff that showed up moreparticularly on the test that I took.
(11:41):
And so, Sheldon is dead onabout recognizing it and others.
And that's one of the reasonswhy I really want to get my self
assessment course done this summer.
Because I was in a hardcore burnout,one of the things that I want to do
is do some of the online IQ testsand, Kind of rate them as somebody
who actually does give IQ tests.
(12:03):
So I know the limitations.
Another thing I learned recentlyis that the adult version of the
Weschler is much more biased againstADHD than the children's version.
Cause it has more working memory.
There's a bunch of different reasons.
So I actually really hate it when Ihave to test a kid who's over 16 because
I have to give the adult version andyou can score way lower because it's
(12:26):
heavier weighed for working memory.
So there's a variety of reasons.
But as Sheldon was saying, when it comesto recognizing in others, like, I agree.
That's one of the reasons why Ideprioritize the idea of like, you
have to be tested in order to know.
There's a lot of communities, mostcommunities don't require testing.
(12:48):
I know Mensa does.
There's the one where they havetheir own kind of testing that they
do, which I have my issue with, butlike, I think a lot of places are
open to people who self identify.
And I totally am with Sheldon.
Like after a certain pointyou start to recognize it.
And I know back in the past whenI was on dating apps, I literally
was the one telling certainpeople like, Hey, you're gifted.
(13:09):
Yeah, I mean, if we want to continuedown this road, we can have, I don't
know how many ways you want to godown this this road, but I'll just
say that, to this point, right, we'vealready described many reasons why IQ
can be, a challenging identifier, right?
Because age, right?
Like if giftedness is about myfundamental, wiring and just who
(13:32):
I am as a person, whether I'mfive or 75, I'm still like me.
And so everybody ages, there are manythings that I might go through, but
am I not all of a sudden gifted or amI not as gifted because I mean, any
number of, external factors or it'scertainly determinant factors, right?
(13:55):
That to me is, is kindof an odd thing to say.
You know, There are ways in whichmaybe an IQ might be helpful for
performing specific tasks if somebodywere looking to perform specific tasks,
but I think, again, understandingthese different dimensions of
executive functioning, working memory,like all these different elements.
(14:19):
The question still becomes, okay, ifI don't really need working memory,
even kind of going back to thinkingabout for undergrad, I was having a
conversation a couple of weeks ago.
I was back at Drexel where I did myundergrad in mechanical engineering,
which is even more true today, but a lotof the things that we learned is stuff
that you now could just go look up.
Right.
And so the question really wasn't.
(14:40):
Can you memorize theboiling point of water?
It wasn't, you know, do you rememberhow to do a Laplace transform?
It's, do you even understand contextuallyhow to solve and approach the problem?
And if you know that, then,okay, I can go look up what the
boiling point of water is, right?
I can go and look up the formula.
(15:01):
that we're looking for.
But if I don't even know how to eventhink about or approach the problem,
then it really doesn't matter.
And for me, that is a lot of, how Istarted to discover myself was to realize
how I was approaching problems, how it wasso much different than how other people
were approaching problems and why thatin particular was challenging for them.
(15:24):
Right, where I was just like, well,what other way would you, do it?
Or even, is that necessarily beingthe only way, but like, why would
this be a problematic way of doing it?
And it was the realization, it's like, oh,wait, for them, you know, I'm not sure how
many folks are familiar with, but skipthinking, which is something that a lot
of, if the folks talk about experiencing,and if you're not familiar, skip thinking
(15:46):
essentially refers to these times when,let's say a problem is presented to you
and Maybe there's technically five stepsthat you can use to get from point A
to point B to get the answer, insteadof going through all five steps, you go
from one to five, or you go one, two,and then five, or whatever, right, but
you skip, think over, to the last step.
(16:08):
And so, for me, there weredefinitively times when that happened.
And so because I didn't evenknow there was a three and a four
right like so somebody kind ofquestioning how I would do that.
And particularly again, as a littleblack boy, where there was a lot
of presumption that I was cheating.
How did you get.
(16:29):
there where you're supposed tofollow these different steps.
And I'm like, I don't knowwhat you're talking about.
Right.
And at the same time, like, isthe answer not five or is it five?
Like, I'm, I'm super confused here.
Right.
So thinking about what that ends uplooking like and feeling like for people
those who are familiar with those typesof experiences, that to me is an essence.
(16:51):
That's the core part, right?
Regardless of the age and, maybe youstarted out and you were able to go from
one to five, and maybe now you need twoto get there, or maybe it took you five
minutes to get from one to five at age20, and now it takes you 20 minutes.
I don't know, right?
Like, I'm just throwingnumbers out here, right?
But like, the point still is that if youare familiar with that experience I think
(17:15):
about one of the affirmations that I readto myself to make sure that I don't begin
to doubt that there's some sort of trickor some sort of like happenstance rule,
you know, thing that's happening is that
I basically say that I remind myselfthat I'm able to arrive at unique
solutions, you know, innately.
(17:35):
Right.
And that's just something that Iremind myself because otherwise,
you come up with answers.
Other people can't see it.
And then you're wondering, back to mything with my podcast, I must be bugging
because everybody else is getting 10.
I'm getting five.
So, you know, I have to remind myselfof that, but I think this is why
(17:57):
just focusing on how one test mightmeasure that can be so problematic.
And the last thing I'll just say veryquickly is I think that for me, a key
part of my giftedness is, the emotionalpiece, my empathy and my ability to,
Recognize what's happening with people
inside without a lot of data.
(18:19):
I kind of skipped think emotions.
If I was kind ofoversimplifying it, right?
There's nothing like that on the IQ test.
And so that's a beautiful,brilliance of mine.
And just because you can'tmeasure it doesn't mean that it
doesn't exist and that it's nota part of, my lived experience.
And so, anyway, I've talked, a bitabout this stuff, but, yeah, would
(18:41):
be another addition to what we'rediscussing that I would provide.
Absolutely.
And 1 of the things when testingstudents that you can't get from an
IQ test is the quality of the answer.
Because, for example,especially on the verbal part.
There's a zero point answer, a one pointanswer, and a two point answer, but a
(19:02):
two point answer is still pretty basic.
And so, you could actually have someonegive an answer that could be like a
five point answer, but they're not goingto get five points for that answer.
And so, you can tell just from theconversation and talking to the
Person who's answering the question,you can tell there's a qualitative
difference that can't be measuredon the number that they get.
(19:24):
And I'm going to focus on a couplemore questions in the chat for now.
And then I'm going to open upfor discussion in a second.
So, I noticed the question.
What is there to say about how tohandle the intimidation dynamic
of being in non gifted spaces?
Yeah, I mean, I think this is a keypart of anyone's gifted journey, right?
(19:46):
There are multiple parts of this where youmove through kind of like the realization.
You know There may be adenial piece in there, right?
But then, eventually there's thislike acceptance and Beyond that, the
thriving, and so if we kind of move tothis part where you're talking about,
okay, I accept that I'm gifted, how doI then, when I move into spaces where
(20:08):
there aren't as many or any other giftedpeople, how do I thrive in those spaces?
And this is a key question because therewill be people who will be intimidated.
And this is, a part of the journeythat's kind of bittersweet right
when you look back into the pastwhere you realize, oh, the reason why
adults didn't like talking to you.
Right, was because they werelooking at this little kid who knew
(20:31):
more about a topic than they did.
And, for various cultural reasons,various, systemic reasons, right,
that can be a problem, whetherthey're conscious of it or not.
And so what I would say is the key isless about like everybody else and more
so about going inside of yourself andsaying, because I accept who I am, what
(20:56):
that also means is that when I lookaround me, I accept that other people
may be moving at a different pace, theirroute to the end point may be different.
And so I then see their frustration.
As their challenge, they may betrying to project it on to me, but
(21:16):
that's their challenge, and it's notpersonal because that's where we get
caught up right it's like oh, how wouldyou be standing in my way, you know,
all the different things that comeup that, make us take it personally.
There's an opportunity to say,it still might not feel good.
I'm not denying that part, right?
Like, it doesn't feel good when peopledoubt what you're sharing, right?
(21:38):
Where people find what you're sayingto be unbelievable when people think
that you are trying to talk down tothem for just giving them an answer
that they supposedly asked for, right?
You have an opportunity to not takeit personally when that happens and
instead say, This is someone who'snot comfortable with where they
are, and that is a human experience.
(22:00):
It's not going to feel good necessarily,but I can pull from my compassion to
then not respond in a way that it'sdefensive or just kind of escalates
the situation, I can offer them, anopportunity to feel good about
the space feel safe in the space.
Whether or not they takeit separate question.
(22:21):
This is not about giftedness but I'll givea very very quick example that I think
is still at least a parallel to this.
I was in a library the other day andI was plugging my computer into one of
the outlets for a particular reason.
The security guard came up to me andshe was like, you can't plug in there.
And I'm like, okay.
She's like, you're standingin front of the printer.
(22:44):
Nobody else can use the printer.
She like starts going on andon like multiple times and like
telling me how I have to move.
Meanwhile, I'm already like,okay, and I'm closing my laptop.
I'm starting to unplug andshe's continuously making these
cases for why I have to move.
And I've not given her anyreason to continue to do that.
I didn't say, well, why can'tI just plug in for five more?
(23:07):
I didn't say anything like that.
I just kept saying, Okay, and lateron she came back as I did move to the
place that she said that I could plugin and she started out kind of a similar
way like, you know that you can't plugin down and I'm like, I don't know
what else you want me to say to youto let you know that like I'm okay.
(23:27):
Like, obviously I would have lovedto just been able to knock out
what I had to like then but like,I'm not here to box with you.
And long and short is that itwas this very clear realization.
Because she kind of, she didn'tapologize, but what she said was she
said you know, I was just doing my job.
(23:48):
And that's when I was like, youknow, I understand, because, I
could have made that into a wholedifferent type of situation.
If I weren't comfortablein my seat, right?
And that's where we can get tripped up.
So when we think about moving into thesedifferent spaces where folks who may not
understand our experience with folks whomay not realize that it is possible for
(24:10):
someone to skip from one to five, right?
There's an opportunity to say, howcan I offer compassion in this space?
If they're not going to take it, ifthey're going to still attack me, then
how do I draw my boundary and my boundary,maybe removing myself from the space.
And so for me, the answer is reallyabout how do I do the work inside
(24:31):
so that I can offer a safe space.
And then, if somebody doesn'ttake the invitation, how do I then
protect myself by doing whatever itis I need to do to protect myself.
And that's kind of the end of the story.
Does that answer?
I mean, hopefully thatanswers the question.
Yeah, we have one more questionin the chat and then I'm going
to open up for discussion.
One thing I did want to add, oneof the things that comes up in
(24:53):
a bunch of calls that came from
our
call on intuitive flow, when we talkedabout being a fire hose and learning
who can take the whole fire hoseand who can take a drop at a time.
And that analogy hasstuck with me for years.
So I just want to shout outto Alice because that, if
(25:13):
you've heard me reference that.
That was the call
on intuitive flow
so I'm going to ask one more question andthen I'm going to open up for the chat.
What do you do if you sense otherpeople's emotions so strongly that
you're unconsciously mirroringback their emotions back at
them in your own body language?
I'll start with Sheldon, and then ifother people have thoughts on that, you
guys can feel free to share as well.
(25:37):
Yeah, I mean, if I understand thequestion correctly, it's when we pick
up on other people's, emotions, andthen we start to embody those emotions
instead of, processing them otherwise.
And what I think, and this is reallydifficult for somebody like me who
considers himself an empath, right,is there would be many times where
(26:04):
you enter into a space, Before youeven realize it, you're picking
up on other people's energy.
I think the key thing here is, again,it's about the internal work . That
ability to kind of have a canary inthe coal mine, as it were, right?
Because if you can kind of Recognizethose initial signs somatically, right?
Like, I think one of the biggestthings, particularly for us as gifted
(26:27):
folks, because we can have a propensityto intellectualize things, is to
get really in touch with our bodies,because our bodies will tell us a lot.
So, Recognizing when maybe youknow you're getting goosebumps or
when you're feeling lethargic orwhen you're getting a headache.
I don't know.
It could be any number of differentthings right but like when you start
(26:48):
to realize, oh, I'm in this space.
I can't figure out why I have a headache.
It's probably because There's anenergy here that I'm picking up on
and then the second part of that isto realize what tools work for me to
process whatever I'm dealing with sothat then I no longer internalize that
(27:12):
and then I can let the anger that'sin the space not become my anger.
I can recognize that there'sanger in the space but I realize
that's outside of me, and I don'tneed to let that let me spiral.
Right.
And so I think that's a really,really key thing is just doing that
internal work of recognizing how mybody, how my mind responds when I
(27:34):
am taking on other people's stuff.
And then Develop or find the tools thatwork for you to process that through,
so that it doesn't stay with you.
Hopefully that's clear and helpful.
You know, it can be tough.
It really can.
Particularly when thoseemotions are super intense.
Absolutely.
(27:55):
I think the short story hereis realizing that we are these
full body mind soul beings.
A little over a year ago I wenton this retreat and one of the key
things that the retreat was helpingme work through was like before my
official acceptance of giftedness.
(28:16):
At the time I didn't even likesaying that I was brilliant, like
was just super, super uncomfortable.
And so there was partof this process where.
They were pushing me to accept thatand so they were asking these questions
and again I was going through thewhole intellectualization of it
and like, oh, here are all thesedifferent reasons and The long story
(28:39):
short was they said no that's inyour mind What about in your body?
This guy like put his hand on myheart on my chest and had me say
I am brilliant And then that'swhen all these tears poured out.
Like I just broke down because forthe first time I felt it like all
through the full Sheldon, right.
(29:01):
I was able to truly embody that.
And it was like a dam broke.
And so, even going through what otherfolks have shared, and even back
to what I said earlier about allof us being different, it's really,
really important for you to figureout what are your levers, what are
your strings that you need to pull?
If you do have Alexithelmia, like.
It's important to understand that andto have that label and to be able to
(29:25):
dig into that because you know, thenyou won't be trying to pour, water
on an oil fire, as it were, right?
And getting frustrated because thefire is getting worse and you're
like, I'm doing everything thatpeople are telling me to, right?
And it's not workingor it's getting worse.
And it's like, oh, well, Again, I have oilhere, so I need to use a different method.
(29:46):
But I think that again, this explorationof ourselves in all the different aspects
of who we are is really, really importantto being able to address these things.
Absolutely, and I like the analogyabout the water on an oil fire
and I think 1 of the things to whenwe're talking about this is remembering,
(30:07):
when we have an hour and a halfof discussion time, we're going to
barely scratch the surface of this.
So, it's definitely things tocontinue to explore more deeply
if you have specific questions.
I do appreciate those of youwho've been interacting in the
community because that gives us moreopportunity to continue and deepen
the discussion when we have a limitedtime, so I really do appreciate that
(30:29):
Oh, Sheldon, you had an affirmation.
I looked it up of course, becauseof how, these brains work.
It was like itching.
I was like, Sheldon, that'snot exactly what you said.
So I went and looked up exactly,the message that I read to myself,
which is I am capable of uncoveringbrilliant insights innately.
Right.
So I just wanted to make sure thatI put that in there for folks.
(30:49):
Awesome.
I'm going to post a question laterabout specifically what other people
do that help when they're takingon other people's emotions and
have a hard time reading their own.
Cause I think that is a veryrelatable topic that a lot
of people have experienced.
And it actually goes into thetheme of self empathy that I
think is actually this month.
So, sheldon, you want to wrap things up?
(31:12):
Sure.
So, I mean, this is, gosh, likeI said, an hour and a half is for
many others, but for groups likethis is like never enough, right?
But I am super grateful for thisopportunity to, share with you all, talk
a little bit about, the things that happenup here, what I call my Skull Journal.
I think, bringing it back tothis emotional giftedness piece
(31:34):
is super, super important.
And even as we're wrapping up and talkingabout these different things that make it
hard for us to find connection I'm reallygrateful for that because just to let
you all know, as I continue my work, as Imentioned at the beginning, this, advocacy
work of humanizing our experience.
(31:54):
One of the things that I'm planningto do is to do a like seven to 10
podcast episode series, which I'mapplying for a grant for because
I want to do it like big, right?
And the grant that I'm applyingfor, they want folks to talk about
love and connection and challengesthat people in general have with
(32:15):
love and connection and loneliness.
But what I really want to speak to isHow challenging that is for particularly
black and neurodivergent folks, butalso just the wisdom that comes from
our experiences as neurodivergent folks,as we think about connecting so when
people are talking about, you know,I've got trauma from being neglected.
(32:41):
And that's particularly related to thefact that, let's say, just as gifted
people, people think we're okay.
Oh, they'll figure it out.
Well, that presents adifferent experience, right?
A different kind of baggage whenwe show up in a relationship.
Again, whether that be friendship,family, or romantic, right?
There's a different experience whenwe show up with that and to just ask
(33:03):
somebody to take that and toss thatto the side, right, is different when
that neglect comes from things that canbe very personal how your mind works.
It's not even just how you might look.
It's Like literally thefundamentals of who you are.
And so I really want to explore thatbecause I think what we're finding here
in this discussion is that the aspectsof being gifted, none of us here were
(33:28):
like this entire discussion wasn't about.
Okay guys, can you remember.
This object, like I'mgoing to show it to you.
And then, you know, five seconds later,I need you to tell me exactly the
orientation of the object, but that'snot what we've been sitting here doing.
What we've been talking about is thefullness of our humanity and how that has
(33:48):
shown up for us personally, but then howit shows up as we try to relate to others.
And so I think that it's important forus to continue to dig into these parts of
ourselves and to continue to, particularlyin these types of communities, share those
things as vulnerably as it feels safe.
Because what, again, in this littlebit of time that we've had, we've
(34:10):
seen is that people have felt thatmirror and they felt that resonance,
and it's really been helpful for them.
And that's kind of what I started outsaying is that, you know, as much as
those inner thoughts may feel scary.
It's when you put them out there, andyou can then see that, wait, I thought I
was literally the only one that had thatthought, or was worrying it in that way.
(34:33):
All of a sudden, you can tell me,or think about that for yourself.
What did that feel likewhen you heard that?
What did it feel likewhen you saw someone?
In the chat, something thatjust felt super resonant.
So what I'm just encouraging you allto do is to continue to, to do that
work and to dive into this community,to be active in the embracing intensity
community, because that means moreopportunities not to feel the things that
(34:57):
we've always felt, but more opportunitiesto feel that joy that spark that we
have been feeling during this call.
And, you know, please do stay connected.
And, at the point at which I hopefullyI'm going to be doing this work.
I definitely want to be able tospeak with and work with folks who
know this experience personally.
So that means folks like you.
(35:18):
So I'm hoping that, there might be anopportunity to tap in at that point,
but I'm just super, super grateful.
You know, hopefully again, you stayconnected with me and my work, but
most importantly is please do trustthat your authenticity matters,
not just to you, but to others.
Awesome.
Well, thank you so much.
And so one of the things I will pointout when it comes to my guest speakers,
(35:43):
you'll notice that I only have fourthis year when I usually had like 10.
And the reason that I didthat is for a few reasons.
But meantime, my monthly call is basedon my ignite your power 12 part series,
which is looking at self regulation.
I've made them the third Saturday.
So you can find the membership info
(36:03):
On my website.
Thank you so much Sheldon for joining us.
This is a great conversationand, I look forward to sharing.
(36:24):
Looking for ways toembrace your own intensity.
Join our embracing intensitycommunity@embracingintensity.com where
you'll meet a growing group of like-mindedpeople who get what it's like to be gifted
and intense and are committed to creatinga supportive community as well as access
to our courses and tools to help youuse your fire without getting burned.
(36:48):
There's also a pay what you canoption through our Patreon where
you can increase your pledgeto help sustain the podcast or.
Or join us at a rate thatbetter fits your needs.
You can also sign up for my freeHarnessing the Power of Your
Intensity, a self regulationworkbook for gifted, creative, and
twice exceptional adults and teens.
(37:08):
All links can be found in the shownotes or on EmbracingIntensity.
com.
There's an opportunity to say, howcan I offer compassion in this space?
(00:04):
If they're not going to take it, ifthey're going to still attack me, then
how do I draw my boundary and my boundary,maybe removing myself from the space.
And so for me, the answer is reallyabout how do I do the work inside
so that I can offer a safe space.
And then, if somebody doesn'ttake the invitation, how do I then
(00:24):
protect myself by doing whatever itis I need to do to protect myself.
Welcome to the EmbracingIntensity podcast.
I'll be sharing interviews and tips forgifted, creative, twice exceptional,
and outside the box thinkers whouse their fire in a positive way.
(00:45):
My name is Aurora Remember Holtzman.
After years of feeling too much, Ifinally realized that intensity is
the source of my greatest power.
Now, instead of beating myselfup about not measuring up to
my own self imposed standards.
I'm on a mission to help people embracetheir own intensity and befriend their
brains so they can share their giftswith the world through the Embracing
(01:08):
Intensity community, coaching, educationalassessment, and other tools to help you
use your fire without getting burned.
You can join us at embracingintensity.
com.
(01:35):
Hello.
I am super thrilled to share thisweek's conversation with Sheldon
Gay, creator of the I Must Be Buggingpodcast that highlights the voices
and stories of black, unidentified,underrepresented, gifted, and
otherwise neurodivergent folks.
Sheldon is incredibly thoughtful,warm, and insightful, and in this
(01:56):
episode we dive deep into the topicof mirroring the powerful experience
of seeing ourselves reflectedback in community and connection.
You can find the full discussionrecording in the Embracing Intensity
Membership and Guest Call Library.
This theme of mirroring and connection hasbeen on my mind a lot lately, especially
(02:19):
after publishing a recent vulnerableblog post on neurodivergent relationships
that really resonated with many of you.
I am also super excited to share thatI'm working on a plan to team up with
Sheldon to explore the developmentof some neurodivergent friendly apps.
Be on the lookout for an upcomingsurvey as I begin working on the first
(02:40):
tool, a streamlined task management appdesigned for A DHD brains like mine.
If I can secure funding and buildthe right support team, I envision,
a whole suite of tools thatmeet real neuro divergent needs.
Something I've dreamed of buthaven't really had the capacity
to bring to life until now.
In the meantime, I'll continue sharing myown musings, interviews and guest speaker
(03:05):
episodes for you to ponder and explore.
Enjoy!
Welcome, everyone.
I'm super excited to haveSheldon here talking to us
about the topic of mirroring.
Thank you guys so much for joining us.
I'm glad to see some new peopleand some familiar people and
people I haven't seen in a while.
I'm going to go ahead and letSheldon introduce himself and
(03:28):
the topic of mirroring and we'llopen for Q& A in the chat, and
then we'll open up for discussion.
So Sheldon, go aheadand introduce yourself.
Welcome.
Thanks.
First of all I'd have to say I alwayslove interacting with this group, as you
said, there's some familiar faces hereand just any of these spaces where we have
(03:49):
the residents that, you know, brings usback like that's super, super special.
And so to tell folks who don't knowwho I am, my name is Sheldon Gay.
I'm calling in from the Philadelphia area.
I, about two years ago now, hadthis kind of aha moment in life
where I realized that I was giftedand it completely changed my life.
(04:10):
You know, I began to reallyunderstand my childhood a lot better.
I began to understand my career, myprofessional career a lot better.
I began to understand.
relationships, whether they be friendshipsor romantic relationships, a lot better.
And so I started on this journey where Istarted a podcast called I Must Be Buggin
(04:30):
where the buggin is B U G N, and it standsfor Black Unidentified Underrepresented
Gifted and Otherwise Neurodivergent.
And I speak about just that, right?
Like I speak about, you know, broadlygifted and otherwise neurodivergent
experiences and making sure that Thoseexperiences are presented in a way that
humanizes us as opposed to one where we'rebeing pathologized or, even Making sure
(04:56):
that these things that are being sharedare stories and not just like something
that you might pull out of a DSM, right?
Like, do not come and listen to me ifyou're looking for these are the top 10
things that You know, autistic peopledo, or this is what gifted and again,
no shot against people who do that, butthat's not what my podcast is about.
My podcast is about sharing these greatstories that are resonant across labels.
(05:21):
And to that point, one of the thingsthat I share with folks is that labels
don't have to feel like pathology.
And for me, that really speaks tothe fact that, labels kind of help
us contextualize our experience, butthey don't have to confine us, right?
So, like, when Lana's talking aboutfeeling boxed in, you know, I'm
gifted, but that doesn't mean, like, mygiftedness is expressed and experienced
(05:43):
in the same exact way as anybody else.
And so, I share the stories, andif it resonates, then You know,
I mean, like, that's the vibe.
And so today's, topic, talking a littlebit about mirroring, that was honestly a
key part of my acceptance, particularlymy acceptance piece of my gifted journey.
You know, when I kindof had my aha moment.
(06:05):
There was a lot of doubt.
It was like, did I kind of likeforce this label upon myself?
Is this really what's going on?
And then I hired a gifted coach andshe was like, look, I'm going to tell
you about a couple of different groups.
I want you to go to those groups.
And you just tell me.
If you feel at home, she's like, I knowwhat I know, but like you go and do that.
(06:28):
And so when I got into thesegifted groups, it was like
walking into, home, right?
I just felt not alone for one ofthe first times, in my life where
the little ways in which my brain.
works, the little ways in which I mightfind something funny the questions
(06:49):
that I might have, the curiosities,the unending curiosities, right?
I felt very much so at home.
And so the mirroring piece and howI'm primarily going to talk about
mirroring today is really aboutwhen you enter into a space and
you feel yourself reflected back.
(07:09):
And that is incredibly important forus as humans because this journey that
we're on called life is fundamentally,a core part of that is this desire
to not want to feel like you are thislike dot floating through existence.
And so when you walk into a space and Yourlight, a similar light is reflected back.
(07:34):
You realize that there is a connectionand that we are all together, no matter
how physically separate like we're allcalling in from different, physical
locations, but there is a genuineconnection here and being able to
feel that is super, super important.
And that again was a big thing for me.
(07:55):
The, quick example that I give.
is, particularly for folks who like me,I mean, maybe when I was younger, there
was some sort of IQ test that I took.
I don't definitively know.
But, you know, for those who may be,self diagnosed or whatever, right.
I had a friend earlier on who said tome, He said, well, how do you know?
(08:15):
Because he was very big on likeIQ being a thing for giftedness.
And I was like, I accept that thereis, some correlation there, but I don't
think that you need an IQ test to know.
And I don't think that, for various,you know, systemic oppression, those
kinds of reasons, why IQ for me isproblematic, but like, you're not even
necessarily getting into that just yet.
(08:37):
For me, when I said to him,I said, okay, we'll look.
If you walk into a room and you saw oneperson wearing a referee's uniform and you
saw another person wearing a footlocker,you know, they worked at footlocker and
they were still wearing their uniform.
How would you tell the difference?
Well, if you went and spoke to them Ithink you very clearly identified which
(09:01):
one is the one that worked at footlockerand which one was an actual referee.
And so if you can go into spaces andfind That instant connection that that
that resonance that for me is enough.
Like I said, you can choose a label,you can fight for your label, you can
get in a diagnosis is perfectly fine.
But for me, I'll recognize when I'mspeaking to the referee, right, like
(09:23):
I'll understand that connection.
And so as long as that is true, that'sthe only thing that really matters to me.
And a key part of that is this mirroringof, again, when something comes up, like,
Do we both get what I call brain sparkles?
Right.
And then, you know, it'sour brain activated.
We get curious about it.
Are we kind of trying to diginto things in a similar way?
(09:46):
And if that's true, that mirroring,is really, really powerful.
And so That's kind of the core of howI describe and would expound upon, what
mirroring is and why it's so important.
And so, yeah, like my work nowis very much so focused on helping
to advocate and bring awareness toour experiences and to humanize our
(10:10):
experiences for those who are struggling.
I mean, I would say youcan look around and.
And you know, many different places,but certainly in political spaces
now, and they're trying to erase andfurther demonize and marginalize us.
And so, my job is to make sure thatthat doesn't happen, like the door
doesn't get closed back to where it waswhatever, 10, 15, 20 years ago, right?
(10:35):
And so I'll stop there.
Right.
But I mean, that's kind of, likeI said, we're a bit about me and
why mirroring is so important.
Awesome.
And there's some gooddiscussion in the chat.
I'll include later.
But if you guys have specificquestions for Sheldon you can go ahead
and put them in the chat as well.
And let's see if there's too bigof a difference between the two
key aspects of IQ, they aren'teven allowed to give you one IQ.
(10:58):
Well, yeah, so the full scale isn't validif there's a lot of inner discrepancies.
On brain sparkles.
I noticed that mirroring ishappening when I use the brain and
sparkle emoji next to each other.
Oh, nice.
Somebody had asked about IQ number,one of the things about IQ number is
it really depends on when you took it.
I mean, obviously there's a lotof cultural factors at play,
(11:20):
like, Sheldon had mentioned.
And for example, I had two differenttests, but I dropped by like 20 points
from when I was a kid to when I wasin college due to a few factors.
One, my executive functioningexpectation goes way, way up.
So I think that impacted itand also I had some auditory
processing stuff that showed up moreparticularly on the test that I took.
(11:41):
And so, Sheldon is dead onabout recognizing it and others.
And that's one of the reasonswhy I really want to get my self
assessment course done this summer.
Because I was in a hardcore burnout,one of the things that I want to do
is do some of the online IQ testsand, Kind of rate them as somebody
who actually does give IQ tests.
(12:03):
So I know the limitations.
Another thing I learned recentlyis that the adult version of the
Weschler is much more biased againstADHD than the children's version.
Cause it has more working memory.
There's a bunch of different reasons.
So I actually really hate it when Ihave to test a kid who's over 16 because
I have to give the adult version andyou can score way lower because it's
(12:26):
heavier weighed for working memory.
So there's a variety of reasons.
But as Sheldon was saying, when it comesto recognizing in others, like, I agree.
That's one of the reasons why Ideprioritize the idea of like, you
have to be tested in order to know.
There's a lot of communities, mostcommunities don't require testing.
(12:48):
I know Mensa does.
There's the one where they havetheir own kind of testing that they
do, which I have my issue with, butlike, I think a lot of places are
open to people who self identify.
And I totally am with Sheldon.
Like after a certain pointyou start to recognize it.
And I know back in the past whenI was on dating apps, I literally
was the one telling certainpeople like, Hey, you're gifted.
(13:09):
Yeah, I mean, if we want to continuedown this road, we can have, I don't
know how many ways you want to godown this this road, but I'll just
say that, to this point, right, we'vealready described many reasons why IQ
can be, a challenging identifier, right?
Because age, right?
Like if giftedness is about myfundamental, wiring and just who
(13:32):
I am as a person, whether I'mfive or 75, I'm still like me.
And so everybody ages, there are manythings that I might go through, but
am I not all of a sudden gifted or amI not as gifted because I mean, any
number of, external factors or it'scertainly determinant factors, right?
(13:55):
That to me is, is kindof an odd thing to say.
You know, There are ways in whichmaybe an IQ might be helpful for
performing specific tasks if somebodywere looking to perform specific tasks,
but I think, again, understandingthese different dimensions of
executive functioning, working memory,like all these different elements.
(14:19):
The question still becomes, okay, ifI don't really need working memory,
even kind of going back to thinkingabout for undergrad, I was having a
conversation a couple of weeks ago.
I was back at Drexel where I did myundergrad in mechanical engineering,
which is even more true today, but a lotof the things that we learned is stuff
that you now could just go look up.
Right.
And so the question really wasn't.
(14:40):
Can you memorize theboiling point of water?
It wasn't, you know, do you rememberhow to do a Laplace transform?
It's, do you even understand contextuallyhow to solve and approach the problem?
And if you know that, then,okay, I can go look up what the
boiling point of water is, right?
I can go and look up the formula.
(15:01):
that we're looking for.
But if I don't even know how to eventhink about or approach the problem,
then it really doesn't matter.
And for me, that is a lot of, how Istarted to discover myself was to realize
how I was approaching problems, how it wasso much different than how other people
were approaching problems and why thatin particular was challenging for them.
(15:24):
Right, where I was just like, well,what other way would you, do it?
Or even, is that necessarily beingthe only way, but like, why would
this be a problematic way of doing it?
And it was the realization, it's like, oh,wait, for them, you know, I'm not sure how
many folks are familiar with, but skipthinking, which is something that a lot
of, if the folks talk about experiencing,and if you're not familiar, skip thinking
(15:46):
essentially refers to these times when,let's say a problem is presented to you
and Maybe there's technically five stepsthat you can use to get from point A
to point B to get the answer, insteadof going through all five steps, you go
from one to five, or you go one, two,and then five, or whatever, right, but
you skip, think over, to the last step.
(16:08):
And so, for me, there weredefinitively times when that happened.
And so because I didn't evenknow there was a three and a four
right like so somebody kind ofquestioning how I would do that.
And particularly again, as a littleblack boy, where there was a lot
of presumption that I was cheating.
How did you get.
(16:29):
there where you're supposed tofollow these different steps.
And I'm like, I don't knowwhat you're talking about.
Right.
And at the same time, like, isthe answer not five or is it five?
Like, I'm, I'm super confused here.
Right.
So thinking about what that ends uplooking like and feeling like for people
those who are familiar with those typesof experiences, that to me is an essence.
(16:51):
That's the core part, right?
Regardless of the age and, maybe youstarted out and you were able to go from
one to five, and maybe now you need twoto get there, or maybe it took you five
minutes to get from one to five at age20, and now it takes you 20 minutes.
I don't know, right?
Like, I'm just throwingnumbers out here, right?
But like, the point still is that if youare familiar with that experience I think
(17:15):
about one of the affirmations that I readto myself to make sure that I don't begin
to doubt that there's some sort of trickor some sort of like happenstance rule,
you know, thing that's happening is that
I basically say that I remind myselfthat I'm able to arrive at unique
solutions, you know, innately.
(17:35):
Right.
And that's just something that Iremind myself because otherwise,
you come up with answers.
Other people can't see it.
And then you're wondering, back to mything with my podcast, I must be bugging
because everybody else is getting 10.
I'm getting five.
So, you know, I have to remind myselfof that, but I think this is why
(17:57):
just focusing on how one test mightmeasure that can be so problematic.
And the last thing I'll just say veryquickly is I think that for me, a key
part of my giftedness is, the emotionalpiece, my empathy and my ability to,
Recognize what's happening with people
inside without a lot of data.
(18:19):
I kind of skipped think emotions.
If I was kind ofoversimplifying it, right?
There's nothing like that on the IQ test.
And so that's a beautiful,brilliance of mine.
And just because you can'tmeasure it doesn't mean that it
doesn't exist and that it's nota part of, my lived experience.
And so, anyway, I've talked, a bitabout this stuff, but, yeah, would
(18:41):
be another addition to what we'rediscussing that I would provide.
Absolutely.
And 1 of the things when testingstudents that you can't get from an
IQ test is the quality of the answer.
Because, for example,especially on the verbal part.
There's a zero point answer, a one pointanswer, and a two point answer, but a
(19:02):
two point answer is still pretty basic.
And so, you could actually have someonegive an answer that could be like a
five point answer, but they're not goingto get five points for that answer.
And so, you can tell just from theconversation and talking to the
Person who's answering the question,you can tell there's a qualitative
difference that can't be measuredon the number that they get.
(19:24):
And I'm going to focus on a couplemore questions in the chat for now.
And then I'm going to open upfor discussion in a second.
So, I noticed the question.
What is there to say about how tohandle the intimidation dynamic
of being in non gifted spaces?
Yeah, I mean, I think this is a keypart of anyone's gifted journey, right?
(19:46):
There are multiple parts of this where youmove through kind of like the realization.
You know There may be adenial piece in there, right?
But then, eventually there's thislike acceptance and Beyond that, the
thriving, and so if we kind of move tothis part where you're talking about,
okay, I accept that I'm gifted, how doI then, when I move into spaces where
(20:08):
there aren't as many or any other giftedpeople, how do I thrive in those spaces?
And this is a key question because therewill be people who will be intimidated.
And this is, a part of the journeythat's kind of bittersweet right
when you look back into the pastwhere you realize, oh, the reason why
adults didn't like talking to you.
Right, was because they werelooking at this little kid who knew
(20:31):
more about a topic than they did.
And, for various cultural reasons,various, systemic reasons, right,
that can be a problem, whetherthey're conscious of it or not.
And so what I would say is the key isless about like everybody else and more
so about going inside of yourself andsaying, because I accept who I am, what
(20:56):
that also means is that when I lookaround me, I accept that other people
may be moving at a different pace, theirroute to the end point may be different.
And so I then see their frustration.
As their challenge, they may betrying to project it on to me, but
(21:16):
that's their challenge, and it's notpersonal because that's where we get
caught up right it's like oh, how wouldyou be standing in my way, you know,
all the different things that comeup that, make us take it personally.
There's an opportunity to say,it still might not feel good.
I'm not denying that part, right?
Like, it doesn't feel good when peopledoubt what you're sharing, right?
(21:38):
Where people find what you're sayingto be unbelievable when people think
that you are trying to talk down tothem for just giving them an answer
that they supposedly asked for, right?
You have an opportunity to not takeit personally when that happens and
instead say, This is someone who'snot comfortable with where they
are, and that is a human experience.
(22:00):
It's not going to feel good necessarily,but I can pull from my compassion to
then not respond in a way that it'sdefensive or just kind of escalates
the situation, I can offer them, anopportunity to feel good about
the space feel safe in the space.
Whether or not they takeit separate question.
(22:21):
This is not about giftedness but I'll givea very very quick example that I think
is still at least a parallel to this.
I was in a library the other day andI was plugging my computer into one of
the outlets for a particular reason.
The security guard came up to me andshe was like, you can't plug in there.
And I'm like, okay.
She's like, you're standingin front of the printer.
(22:44):
Nobody else can use the printer.
She like starts going on andon like multiple times and like
telling me how I have to move.
Meanwhile, I'm already like,okay, and I'm closing my laptop.
I'm starting to unplug andshe's continuously making these
cases for why I have to move.
And I've not given her anyreason to continue to do that.
I didn't say, well, why can'tI just plug in for five more?
(23:07):
I didn't say anything like that.
I just kept saying, Okay, and lateron she came back as I did move to the
place that she said that I could plugin and she started out kind of a similar
way like, you know that you can't plugin down and I'm like, I don't know
what else you want me to say to youto let you know that like I'm okay.
(23:27):
Like, obviously I would have lovedto just been able to knock out
what I had to like then but like,I'm not here to box with you.
And long and short is that itwas this very clear realization.
Because she kind of, she didn'tapologize, but what she said was she
said you know, I was just doing my job.
(23:48):
And that's when I was like, youknow, I understand, because, I
could have made that into a wholedifferent type of situation.
If I weren't comfortablein my seat, right?
And that's where we can get tripped up.
So when we think about moving into thesedifferent spaces where folks who may not
understand our experience with folks whomay not realize that it is possible for
(24:10):
someone to skip from one to five, right?
There's an opportunity to say, howcan I offer compassion in this space?
If they're not going to take it, ifthey're going to still attack me, then
how do I draw my boundary and my boundary,maybe removing myself from the space.
And so for me, the answer is reallyabout how do I do the work inside
(24:31):
so that I can offer a safe space.
And then, if somebody doesn'ttake the invitation, how do I then
protect myself by doing whatever itis I need to do to protect myself.
And that's kind of the end of the story.
Does that answer?
I mean, hopefully thatanswers the question.
Yeah, we have one more questionin the chat and then I'm going
to open up for discussion.
One thing I did want to add, oneof the things that comes up in
(24:53):
a bunch of calls that came from
our
call on intuitive flow, when we talkedabout being a fire hose and learning
who can take the whole fire hoseand who can take a drop at a time.
And that analogy hasstuck with me for years.
So I just want to shout outto Alice because that, if
(25:13):
you've heard me reference that.
That was the call
on intuitive flow
so I'm going to ask one more question andthen I'm going to open up for the chat.
What do you do if you sense otherpeople's emotions so strongly that
you're unconsciously mirroringback their emotions back at
them in your own body language?
I'll start with Sheldon, and then ifother people have thoughts on that, you
guys can feel free to share as well.
(25:37):
Yeah, I mean, if I understand thequestion correctly, it's when we pick
up on other people's, emotions, andthen we start to embody those emotions
instead of, processing them otherwise.
And what I think, and this is reallydifficult for somebody like me who
considers himself an empath, right,is there would be many times where
(26:04):
you enter into a space, Before youeven realize it, you're picking
up on other people's energy.
I think the key thing here is, again,it's about the internal work . That
ability to kind of have a canary inthe coal mine, as it were, right?
Because if you can kind of Recognizethose initial signs somatically, right?
Like, I think one of the biggestthings, particularly for us as gifted
(26:27):
folks, because we can have a propensityto intellectualize things, is to
get really in touch with our bodies,because our bodies will tell us a lot.
So, Recognizing when maybe youknow you're getting goosebumps or
when you're feeling lethargic orwhen you're getting a headache.
I don't know.
It could be any number of differentthings right but like when you start
(26:48):
to realize, oh, I'm in this space.
I can't figure out why I have a headache.
It's probably because There's anenergy here that I'm picking up on
and then the second part of that isto realize what tools work for me to
process whatever I'm dealing with sothat then I no longer internalize that
(27:12):
and then I can let the anger that'sin the space not become my anger.
I can recognize that there'sanger in the space but I realize
that's outside of me, and I don'tneed to let that let me spiral.
Right.
And so I think that's a really,really key thing is just doing that
internal work of recognizing how mybody, how my mind responds when I
(27:34):
am taking on other people's stuff.
And then Develop or find the tools thatwork for you to process that through,
so that it doesn't stay with you.
Hopefully that's clear and helpful.
You know, it can be tough.
It really can.
Particularly when thoseemotions are super intense.
Absolutely.
(27:55):
I think the short story hereis realizing that we are these
full body mind soul beings.
A little over a year ago I wenton this retreat and one of the key
things that the retreat was helpingme work through was like before my
official acceptance of giftedness.
(28:16):
At the time I didn't even likesaying that I was brilliant, like
was just super, super uncomfortable.
And so there was partof this process where.
They were pushing me to accept thatand so they were asking these questions
and again I was going through thewhole intellectualization of it
and like, oh, here are all thesedifferent reasons and The long story
(28:39):
short was they said no that's inyour mind What about in your body?
This guy like put his hand on myheart on my chest and had me say
I am brilliant And then that'swhen all these tears poured out.
Like I just broke down because forthe first time I felt it like all
through the full Sheldon, right.
(29:01):
I was able to truly embody that.
And it was like a dam broke.
And so, even going through what otherfolks have shared, and even back
to what I said earlier about allof us being different, it's really,
really important for you to figureout what are your levers, what are
your strings that you need to pull?
If you do have Alexithelmia, like.
It's important to understand that andto have that label and to be able to
(29:25):
dig into that because you know, thenyou won't be trying to pour, water
on an oil fire, as it were, right?
And getting frustrated because thefire is getting worse and you're
like, I'm doing everything thatpeople are telling me to, right?
And it's not workingor it's getting worse.
And it's like, oh, well, Again, I have oilhere, so I need to use a different method.
(29:46):
But I think that again, this explorationof ourselves in all the different aspects
of who we are is really, really importantto being able to address these things.
Absolutely, and I like the analogyabout the water on an oil fire
and I think 1 of the things to whenwe're talking about this is remembering,
(30:07):
when we have an hour and a halfof discussion time, we're going to
barely scratch the surface of this.
So, it's definitely things tocontinue to explore more deeply
if you have specific questions.
I do appreciate those of youwho've been interacting in the
community because that gives us moreopportunity to continue and deepen
the discussion when we have a limitedtime, so I really do appreciate that
(30:29):
Oh, Sheldon, you had an affirmation.
I looked it up of course, becauseof how, these brains work.
It was like itching.
I was like, Sheldon, that'snot exactly what you said.
So I went and looked up exactly,the message that I read to myself,
which is I am capable of uncoveringbrilliant insights innately.
Right.
So I just wanted to make sure thatI put that in there for folks.
(30:49):
Awesome.
I'm going to post a question laterabout specifically what other people
do that help when they're takingon other people's emotions and
have a hard time reading their own.
Cause I think that is a veryrelatable topic that a lot
of people have experienced.
And it actually goes into thetheme of self empathy that I
think is actually this month.
So, sheldon, you want to wrap things up?
(31:12):
Sure.
So, I mean, this is, gosh, likeI said, an hour and a half is for
many others, but for groups likethis is like never enough, right?
But I am super grateful for thisopportunity to, share with you all, talk
a little bit about, the things that happenup here, what I call my Skull Journal.
I think, bringing it back tothis emotional giftedness piece
(31:34):
is super, super important.
And even as we're wrapping up and talkingabout these different things that make it
hard for us to find connection I'm reallygrateful for that because just to let
you all know, as I continue my work, as Imentioned at the beginning, this, advocacy
work of humanizing our experience.
(31:54):
One of the things that I'm planningto do is to do a like seven to 10
podcast episode series, which I'mapplying for a grant for because
I want to do it like big, right?
And the grant that I'm applyingfor, they want folks to talk about
love and connection and challengesthat people in general have with
(32:15):
love and connection and loneliness.
But what I really want to speak to isHow challenging that is for particularly
black and neurodivergent folks, butalso just the wisdom that comes from
our experiences as neurodivergent folks,as we think about connecting so when
people are talking about, you know,I've got trauma from being neglected.
(32:41):
And that's particularly related to thefact that, let's say, just as gifted
people, people think we're okay.
Oh, they'll figure it out.
Well, that presents adifferent experience, right?
A different kind of baggage whenwe show up in a relationship.
Again, whether that be friendship,family, or romantic, right?
There's a different experience whenwe show up with that and to just ask
(33:03):
somebody to take that and toss thatto the side, right, is different when
that neglect comes from things that canbe very personal how your mind works.
It's not even just how you might look.
It's Like literally thefundamentals of who you are.
And so I really want to explore thatbecause I think what we're finding here
in this discussion is that the aspectsof being gifted, none of us here were
(33:28):
like this entire discussion wasn't about.
Okay guys, can you remember.
This object, like I'mgoing to show it to you.
And then, you know, five seconds later,I need you to tell me exactly the
orientation of the object, but that'snot what we've been sitting here doing.
What we've been talking about is thefullness of our humanity and how that has
(33:48):
shown up for us personally, but then howit shows up as we try to relate to others.
And so I think that it's important forus to continue to dig into these parts of
ourselves and to continue to, particularlyin these types of communities, share those
things as vulnerably as it feels safe.
Because what, again, in this littlebit of time that we've had, we've
(34:10):
seen is that people have felt thatmirror and they felt that resonance,
and it's really been helpful for them.
And that's kind of what I started outsaying is that, you know, as much as
those inner thoughts may feel scary.
It's when you put them out there, andyou can then see that, wait, I thought I
was literally the only one that had thatthought, or was worrying it in that way.
(34:33):
All of a sudden, you can tell me,or think about that for yourself.
What did that feel likewhen you heard that?
What did it feel likewhen you saw someone?
In the chat, something thatjust felt super resonant.
So what I'm just encouraging you allto do is to continue to, to do that
work and to dive into this community,to be active in the embracing intensity
community, because that means moreopportunities not to feel the things that
(34:57):
we've always felt, but more opportunitiesto feel that joy that spark that we
have been feeling during this call.
And, you know, please do stay connected.
And, at the point at which I hopefullyI'm going to be doing this work.
I definitely want to be able tospeak with and work with folks who
know this experience personally.
So that means folks like you.
(35:18):
So I'm hoping that, there might be anopportunity to tap in at that point,
but I'm just super, super grateful.
You know, hopefully again, you stayconnected with me and my work, but
most importantly is please do trustthat your authenticity matters,
not just to you, but to others.
Awesome.
Well, thank you so much.
And so one of the things I will pointout when it comes to my guest speakers,
(35:43):
you'll notice that I only have fourthis year when I usually had like 10.
And the reason that I didthat is for a few reasons.
But meantime, my monthly call is basedon my ignite your power 12 part series,
which is looking at self regulation.
I've made them the third Saturday.
So you can find the membership info
(36:03):
On my website.
Thank you so much Sheldon for joining us.
This is a great conversationand, I look forward to sharing.
(36:24):
Looking for ways toembrace your own intensity.
Join our embracing intensitycommunity@embracingintensity.com where
you'll meet a growing group of like-mindedpeople who get what it's like to be gifted
and intense and are committed to creatinga supportive community as well as access
to our courses and tools to help youuse your fire without getting burned.
(36:48):
There's also a pay what you canoption through our Patreon where
you can increase your pledgeto help sustain the podcast or.
Or join us at a rate thatbetter fits your needs.
You can also sign up for my freeHarnessing the Power of Your
Intensity, a self regulationworkbook for gifted, creative, and
twice exceptional adults and teens.
(37:08):
All links can be found in the shownotes or on EmbracingIntensity.
com.
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