All Episodes

December 12, 2024 35 mins
In this episode of From Crisis to Justice, Parag Amin sits down with Brant Menswar, a bestselling author and keynote speaker who transformed from successful musician to influential thought leader. After spending 20 years touring globally, Brant now helps others unlock their potential and build momentum through life's biggest challenges.
 
From discussing the psychology of decision-making to exploring how to create transformational moments, this episode delivers powerful insights on building momentum in both life and business. Brant shares his journey of reinvention and the profound lessons learned along the way, including how he channeled his son Theo's legacy into meaningful impact.
 
Key topics include:
1. The Power of Intentional Decision-Making: Understanding the difference between outcomes and intentions in personal and professional success
2. Creating Transformational Moments: How to recognize and leverage life-changing opportunities using the OGRE and BUMP methods
3. Corporate Culture & Leadership: Insights on balancing results with values-driven leadership
4. Building Momentum: Strategies for maintaining forward progress during life's biggest challenges
 
Learn more about Brant's work:
• Visit Brant's Website: https://brantmenswar.com
• Follow Brant on Social Media: https://www.instagram.com/brantmenswar/
• Read his bestselling book: "Black Sheep: Unleash the Extraordinary, Undiscovered You"
 
Learn more about Parag's business law firm: https://www.lawpla.com/
Discover more about Parag: https://www.paraglamin.com/
 
Follow Parag on social media:
 
💡 Join Our Newsletter for Legal
Mark as Played
Transcript

Episode Transcript

Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Hi, I'm Parag Amin.
Welcome to my podcast.
From Crisis to Justice.
As a lawyer and entrepreneur, I'mpassionate about helping small business
owners successfully navigate situationsthat can kill a business.
As a kid, I watched my dad's dreamsof being an entrepreneur were destroyed
by an unethical businessman, and I don'twant that to happen to you or your family.

(00:22):
That's why I started my law firm.
I want to protect and defend businessowners and their legacies from crisis.
Welcome to From Crisis to Justice.
Welcome back, everyone.
To the From Crisis to Justice podcast.
I'm your host, Parag Amin, today.
I'm joined by a very special guest,Brandt Menswear.

(00:46):
He helps people who want to achieve moreand start
building momentumby crushing their inner critic,
identifying the bridges of connectionand capturing the moments of opportunity.
He's a best selling authoralready of the book Black Sheep.
Unleash the extraordinaryinspiring Undiscovered You.
And he's been seen on placeslike CBS Fast Company and Fox.

(01:12):
And in fact, before becoming a bestselling author and keynote speaker.
He was also a musician and rock starfor 20 years and traveled the globe.
So welcome, Brant.
Thank you so much for being on today.
Thanks for other Appreciate you having me.
Yeah, absolutely.
So can you tell us a little bitabout how you made this transition from
being a rock star and traveling the worldand what that was like

(01:35):
and then now becoming an authorand on stage speaker?
Yes, sure.
You know,I was late in life before I decided
that music was going to be my career.
I was 30 years oldbefore I quit my job and
and decided that I was goingto give this music thing a try.

(01:57):
So, you know, I was a little longin the tooth, to be honest,
to to enter thethe world of music as a touring artist.
But I just felt that calling,to be honest and,
you know, got started latebut but made pretty good progress
after after the first few years,my band Big Kettle Drum

(02:18):
found some early success.
Yeah, we were sort of sort of that Mumfordand Son
things before Mumford and Son was a thing
and will argue always
that they they took all of our momentum
at one appearance at the Grammysand nobody cares about Big
Kettle Drum anymore.
But you know we toured for 20

(02:38):
almost 20 years and
just loved it and found myself about 2012.
My oldest son at the time,Theo, was diagnosed
with a rare blood cancerthat required a bone marrow transplant.
And it didn't go exactly as planned.

(02:59):
Had complicationsfrom the transplant itself.
He ended up developinggraft versus host disease
and sort of battling repercussions
from the transplant for nine years.
And we ended up losing him in 2021to sort of that combination of COVID

(03:19):
when it hit and all of the remnantsof battling cancer for nine years.
So it sort of forced me off the roadfrom touring with
the band, had to find something elsethat I could do.
And so I sort of pivotedto speaking at corporate conferences,
first talked about collaboration,worked my way out of collaboration

(03:41):
into speaking on values and valuesdriven leadership,
wrote the bookBlack Sheep about that, and,
you know, found myselfin a unique position to sort of
still have this job of performing,just not with my band.
So it was an interesting pivot.

(04:02):
It allowed me to make a deeper connectionwith people, I believe,
which is really about what it is for me,one of my black sheep values.
What the book is about is, is his impact.
And so the ability to be in front of acrowd of a couple thousand people
and generatesome significant impact in in an hour
is everything to me.

(04:22):
It's it's my calling.
It's what I believe I was meant to doand being able to write books
now is almost like thethe next level of writing songs, right?
Instead of writing songs on an album,I'm writing books
to try to make that same connectionwith people.
And, you know, in spite of the incredible
loss of Theo, it'sit's about sort of building

(04:46):
a legacy worth remembering nowand and making sure that his legacy,
his second life,as I like to call it, lives
much longer than his first life did.
Yeah. Wow. Wow. That's incredible.
And I have no doubt Theo'slooking down on you.
So proud of his fatherfor everything you've accomplished.
Thank you.
I'd like to.

(05:07):
I'd like to unpack a little bit about
your history and.
And rewind a little bit.
Let's go back to us.
30. Yeah. What? Do a job.
Are you working?
I was the vice president of businessdevelopment
for the largestcommercial collection agency in the world.
Okay, so you're pretty accomplishedat this stage.

(05:27):
Yeah.
And yeah, andand so you have this dream of.
Of being a professional musician. Yes.
It started out as musicministry, believe it or not, is
I felt that sort of calling toto minister to people
through music and yeah, that that's

(05:48):
that was the initial drawIt ended up pivoting out of that later on.
But that first thing at 30it was that calling to
to minister to people through musicbut not in the traditional
Let me boreyou with this little light of mine.
You know it's singing to small churchgroups that that wasn't my thing.

(06:11):
Okay.
Okay. So you wanted to do it big.
You wanted to be inspirationalfrom the beginning.
Totally.
All right.
So did you have any doubts or did you knowthat, Look, I'm going to do this
and we're going to crush it.
I definitely had doubts of the how,not in the talent.
You know, I grew up as a competitiveathlete for most of my childhood.

(06:33):
I went to went to collegeto play baseball at Florida Southern.
And so I always
was pretty good in the confidence sector.
But but for me, it was the logisticspart has always been a difficult thing.
I find that those of us that are creatives
have to find an equally strong partnerthat is logistics and operational

(06:58):
to make things happen, to bringto bring visions and ideas to life.
And that is that's,that's been the real interesting part
for me over the years has beencan we find those people
to to take the creative partand make it into something more.
Yeah, absolutely.
So, so how did you figure out the how?

(07:20):
Because I think a lot of us,we get caught up in these logistics.
Did you have a mentor?
Did you read a book? Did you go online?
What did you do to to bridge the gapbetween where you were
and where you wanted to beand how to get there?
So, listen, that's a that's the,
you know, the $64,000 question.
It's it was a lot of trialand error on on my part for sure.

(07:45):
You know, part of
having, you know, empathy is one of my
black sheep values as well.
These these non-negotiable values.
And when you have a great deal of empathy,you have a tendency to connect with
people deeply
and and
people who want to help,who have a heart to help

(08:06):
you give them a shot to help.
And in sometimes it takes months or years
to know thatthat was not the right person for you.
Just because you felt in your heartthat you wanted to give somebody a shot
doesn't mean that was the person that wasgoing to take you where you wanted to be.
And so I spent many, many, many years

(08:26):
sort of sifting through,
you know, good hearted peoplethat were well-intentioned,
who were trying to helpbut simply weren't in a position to do so.
So it always fell back to me.
But in a in a pattern of I'mgoing to give this away
for four, six months,
and then I'm going to take it back,I'm going to give it away

(08:47):
to somebody else for six monthsand I'm going to take it back.
And so the momentum you start to build,then it dives and then the momentum builds
and then it dives.
And it's an honest to God.
I believe it's why we never reached,you know, household name success.
We had enough successthat we made a living at it for 20 years
and, you know, fed the family.
But outside of that,I believe it's because we never really met

(09:10):
that person or that organization.
Even when we signed record deals.
They arein the business of selling records,
not in the business of booking tours and,you know, helping you along to
to reach the level of successthat you desire.
Yeah.
So, so if you could go backand do it again.

(09:31):
Yeah. Would you do anything over and what.
Yeah, I think listen, I thinkit comes down to a couple of things.
I think it's knowing
what to say no to a lot and,
and I think it's hard when you're,when you're living on hopes and dreams
which, which you tend to do in my lineof work anyways, you have these big ideas,

(09:54):
you have these big hopes of impact and,and affecting people
that a lot of times gets in the wayof, of logical, smart decisions.
And so, you know, part of why I wroteBlack Sheep
was how do wehow do we make better decisions?
And it's decisions that are rootedin our non-negotiable values
that sort of looks for the truthin the room and

(10:17):
and sort of considershow we are feeling at the moment.
And you got to do those three thingsin order to make a good decision.
And for so long, I based my decisionsof whether they were good or bad
based on the outcome.
And and outcomes have nothing to dowith whether a decision was good or bad.
We don't control outcomes.
You know, that'sunless you're Glenda or Glenda.

(10:38):
If you don't have that type of power.
So, you know, for for me, it took many,many years of, of working through
mediocre success,writing songs and recording albums
that we thought were good enoughto be on the radio with anybody else
and where we'd get these little pocketsof success, you know, were huge in

(11:00):
Iowa, were huge in Romania, were hugein places that nobody wants to go to.
You know, those arethose are the learns along the way
that I never was able to connectall of the dots on the music side.
But all the things and lessonsthat I learned
in the music side of things of my life,I've been able to apply

(11:22):
to the speakingand writing side of my life
and found much more success therethan I was able to generate
with with the band for 20 years.
Yeah, absolutely.
And I want to dive in and double click
on something you said aboutwe don't control outcomes.
So there might be a listener out therewho says, Look like
you can control your actionsand that then affects outcomes.

(11:44):
So there's some level of controlon the outcome.
I think what you're saying is, look,you don't have absolute
control over an outcomeno matter how much you try to control.
There are still variablesoutside of your control.
But can can you clarify that?
Yeah, you have control up of
the input that that you put in,

(12:04):
but you have zero control overwhat actually happens.
You know what I mean?
It's just it's not possibleto control an outcome.
It is possible to control
the deliberate intentionthat goes into making a decision.
But there is no control.
Once that decision is made,whatever happens next happens
and and you can try to influence it,but you have zero control over it.

(12:27):
I mean, things can can turn sidewaysin a second.
And and that's thethe hard part is most of our culture,
especially on the corporate side, isis everything we do is based on outcomes.
Every promotion we giveis based on an outcome.
Everything that we make decisions onare based on outcomes.
And nobody really wants to considerthe deliberate

(12:50):
intention that went into making decisions,because sometimes sometimes
those decisions weren't great,but the outcome was.
And we reward people based on the outcome,not based on their intent.
And that that puts usin a precarious position a lot.
And and what ends up happeningis that it eats away at corporate culture

(13:10):
because in those momentswe watch people get promoted
who are bad peoplewho don't deserve the promotion
from a team player,from organizational values,
from any of the things that are told to usthat really matter.
All that gets ignoredand all they care about is production.

(13:31):
So that's the thing.
If you can produce, if you can put out anoutcome that that moves somebody forward,
oftentimes that's the sole driverfor things like promotions and recognition
and the people who are doing the work,who bleed the company
colors get overlookedand never get those opportunities.

(13:53):
Yeah, that I mean, that that
that is true.
Although, you know, somebodysomebody might say, look,
it's easierto to measure results than intentions.
And so to clarify,are you saying that the results
don't matteras long as the intent was good?
I'm saying that the results matter,
but how you got the results matteredjust as much.

(14:15):
You know what I mean? That's the thing.
If you're going to consistently
promote people who are high producersbut complete
assholes,then you know your company culture
is going to erode fasterthan you can replace people.
And and it's not an uncommon thing.
It happens all the time.
And we have to recognize thatwe're in a different space

(14:39):
now that this next generation of of
employee, the
Joneses, they will not put up with that.
They will not do it.
They will simply bounceand find another job.
And that's what we've seen.
We've seen it for the last fouror five years.
That's exactly what's happening.
The average tenure of employment for a GenZ is about 18 months.

(15:02):
And and it's because if they don't like
what they see,they are going to go somewhere else.
And so we have to hold truebecause there's not a company out there
that doesn't profess that this ishow they want to do things, that they want
to reward people for, you know, the blood,sweat and tears that goes into the work.
And they've got the heart
and they've got the all the things thatthat they profess are really important.

(15:25):
But at the end of the day,if you only use results
as the as the marker,it just puts us in a pretty tough spot.
And that's that's what I think we start towe have to start to recognize that there
are two sides to that coin.
I can agree with that.
So so I tell my teamall the time as a lawyer, ultimately

(15:45):
how we get the results is really importantto make sure that our clients understand
that we're there with them,we're there to help them,
and we're doing things correctlyand ethically.
So that's one side of the coin.
And the other side isyou've got to get the results.
Because what I told my team is, look,it doesn't matter
how great of the intentions we have are,results are still results.

(16:06):
So you got toI agree with this idea that you got to win
and you got to do it in the right way.
But ultimately,
I mean, you still have to winbecause that's what people are looking at.
But I do agree with youthat a lot of times, especially with
corporate strategy these
days, the idea is just the result.
It's what I also calllike dirty capitalism,

(16:27):
where it's this ideathat it's just the profit to matter.
So it's like, hold on a second.
If you're destroy dying people's livesor destroying
the environment to get quarterly results.
Yeah, like ultimately we're harmingeverybody in the long term.
And so we want to make sure
that we're focused on getting results,but also doing them in the right way.

(16:48):
Yeah, I think, you know,here's the interesting thing.
I think you have toif you're if it were me
and I'm running the organization,I want to win. Yes.
But I want to I want people to want to win
more than I want the win itself,if that makes sense.
I want I want that attitude and belief

(17:12):
that winning matters right.
But not at any cost.
Like we want to do it the right way.
But this is you know,I have these arguments all the time.
You know, growing up as a competitiveathlete in a winning was everything.
You know what I mean?
You want you want that scholarshipto go play wherever you want to go play.

(17:33):
You better win. Right?
That'sthat's sort of how you get noticed. And so
with my own kids,
it wasn't blood or guts win at all costs.
It was what I care more about is I.
I care that you want to winas much as I care about the winning itself
because that want to win attitudeand will carry

(17:54):
you really far no matter whatpath you choose in your life.
And and I think that with the youngergeneration what we see now
because we coddled for so my generationGen X because we coddled so much
that want to win is pretty weak
and and it'swhat we've got to work on developing
we don't have to have them have this,you know, dying passion to win it.

(18:17):
You know Michael Jordan'slevel of you're going to win
or we're not going to be happy,but it has to be developed in them
that they care about winning,that they desire to win,
even if the win doesn't happenbecause the wins
will take care of themselvesif that first part is done right.
And I think that that's an oftenoverlooked part of of

(18:40):
how do we help this next generationbe competitive
because they've grown up in a lifewhere competition wasn't a thing.
We've given them participation, trophies,
we've pushed them offand let them play video games
and in their playing role playing gamesthat really aren't about comp,
they're not competition,they're different types of games.

(19:02):
And so it's a foreign concept to them.
And we can't be mad thatthey don't feel that way because it hasn't
been a thing for them as isit was for us in the eighties.
It was a very different life back thenand what we cared about were
different back then.
Yeah, I agree with that.
I think the participation trophyis really a disservice to everybody

(19:23):
involved in that.
And ultimatelyI think it's a huge disservice
to the person who gets it,because the reality is the participation
trophy is a is a symbol of a lifethat's too comfortable, meaning
we just give everybody participationtrophies because everybody participated.
It's like, okay,but there can only really be,

(19:44):
you know, if it's a competitive sport,one winner and one loser.
And to your point,
I think winning and winning the right wayand winning
ethically is incredibly important.
And I think there's also this ideaof, look,
if you lost, it's it's painfulbecause it's supposed to be painful.
Yes. It's you can'tyou can't smooth it out or lessen
the hurt with a participation trophy.

(20:05):
I think in the long term,it worsens the pain because
people just haven't feltthe realities of adversity
because we are so incredibly comfortableas a society.
So let me ask you this.
Sure.
With momentum and building momentum,I know you're working on your next book.
We're talking aboutthis before we went on. Yeah,
I know.
A big component of momentum is

(20:28):
if you've got momentum,it's easier to keep it going.
The hardest thing iswhen you've got no momentum,
when you've got smack dab,you've just been stopped
for whatever reason,whether it's it's a loss, like a
familial loss you've suffered
or a outside business loss or something

(20:48):
else has happened, something catastrophic,something unexpected.
And like you've lost that momentumand then starting that momentum again,
I think for a lot of peoplethat's really where they struggle.
That's the crisis and seeing that through.
Yeah, working through those dark daysuntil the sun shines again.
What can you what insightscan you give us about how to do that?

(21:13):
So what I can tell youis this that, you know,
I have a new podcast that's going to bestarting in a couple of months called
Just a Moment in itand in interviews, entrepreneurs,
athletes, actors about
the momentin their life that changed everything.
What was the moment, what happenedand how did it change your life?

(21:36):
And interesting enough,one of the thing that we have
or the things that we discovered inin our interviews thus far has been that
for a lot of the people who have had thesetransformational moments happen,
they did not recognize themas transformational moments in the moment.
It took reflectionmonths later, years later,

(21:57):
for them to realizethat that was the turning point.
So what I would first say,and the thing that we are noticing is
that it's just as important to recognizewhen there is a potential
for a moment like this to be upon us
as there is knowing that or knowingwhat to do in the moment itself.

(22:17):
So what we are working on now,
the easiest I'mbig on analogies and acronyms
and making sure something is super easybecause if you can't remember it,
it's like writing that perfect chorus
for a song that you hear at onceand you can sing it again immediately.
It's the same sort of a thingwith with my writing for books
in the corporate spaceand personal development.

(22:39):
So the best way to know if you are
in a moment that has the potential to be
transformationalis the presence of an ogre.
And an ogre stands for an overwhelminggut reaction of emotion.
So, so transformational moments
are accompaniedby massive levels of emotion.

(23:02):
It can be happy, sad, anger.
It doesn't matter.
Just the level of emotionis incredibly elevated.
So when we find ourselves in a momentwhere we're worked up, where we're upset,
we're super happy, we're really sad,those are the moments
that have the potentialto be transformational.

(23:23):
Not every moment that we experience,you know, has that has that power,
but these dobecause the emotion and all connection
is what createsthese transformational moments.
So that's that's thefirst part of this as well, I would say.
So first and foremost,if you know that you are incredibly
emotionally involved, you'rein a potential transformational moment.

(23:46):
That's that's number one.
Number two, how do we createmomentum was the question.
Right?
So so the way that that I'm workingthis out is
you need to bump the moment.
And bump is an acronymfor for what you need to create.
You need to create a sense of belonging.
Number one,you need to create understanding,

(24:07):
meaning and purpose.
If you can do those four thingsin a moment, you can give it
the powerthat it needs to create momentum.
And so we try to do a very simple processfor this where creating a sense of
belonging is just about acknowledgingthe feelings of the deceased paragon.

(24:28):
I see that this has got you pretty upsetright now,
and I'm sorry that that you feel that way.
So am I immediately craftingwhat we belong to this moment together.
Right.
And I understand that this scenariohas got you pretty worked up.
So now you knowthat I'm not running around.
This is pretty simple.
Now I have to inject meaning, which meansI have to reveal something personal.

(24:49):
Listen, this reminds me of
two years ago.
I was in this exact situation,and this is what happened to me.
And it turned me sidewaysand it took me a long time to recover.
So please know that I've been therein this particular moment.
And what I'd like to dois, is work together
so that we can solve this togetherin a way that's amenable to both of us.

(25:10):
Right?
I laugh because someone like youwho is a lawyer for a living,
you do this every single day
with every single client without evenknowing that's what you're doing.
You know, if you don't create a senseof belonging for your clients,
they want nothing to do with you.
They will never come backif they don't feel like you understand.

(25:32):
They get pretty frustrated and you hearabout you hear from them every other day.
No, no, no, no.
You don't understand.
You don't understandwhat I'm going through. Okay?
If they
don't feel a sense of
meaning, if they don't feel like you areemotionally invested in this,
they don't trust you,they don't believe in you.
And then if you can't make thisabout something more than than that,

(25:55):
this little thing that it is, it'sgot to be tied to a bigger purpose, Right?
This is about holdingsomebody accountable.
It's not just about the,you know, the results of the case.
Right.
It's not just about how much moneyyou're going to win or what it is.
This is it's bigger than that.
It's about holding somebody accountable.
And so when you do that, you create

(26:17):
a incredibly powerfulemotional connection with someone.
And that is what allows youto bump a moment forward,
giving it the momentum that it needsand that sort of what
this book teaches you to do.
I love that.
Yeah. Yeah.And I completely agree with you.
I think empathyis one of the most important

(26:38):
traits and skills,
particularly as a lawyer,but also just as a human being.
And I think
unfortunately, there isn't really anythingin terms of schooling
or anything like thatthat really teaches you that other than
the School of Life and you'vejust got to pick it up over the years.
And I agree with you.
I think ultimately

(26:59):
clients want to be understood.
Everybody wants to feel like
they're loved, accepted and understood.
And so ultimately,what you're talking about, I think that's
a brilliant strategy.
It's the idea of learning.
You know, there's two to me,there's two ways to create momentum.
In a moment, you either capture a momentor you create it from scratch, right?

(27:21):
So capturing a momentis capturing a moment that's thrust
upon you by somebody else,a client busting into your office,
you know, emotions runningheavy and immediately in your face.
That's a momentyou have the potential to capture.
But creating a moment means you'resitting back, you're planning it out.
You have time to put into thisto to craft a moment

(27:45):
that has the powerto be transformational. Right?
And that's a luxurythat when you have it, great.
And that's howwe should try to craft moments.
But but the idea of capturing a momentas it's happening
is where the real opportunityis to to catapult yourself forward.
Right.
If you can get that to createenough momentum,
it carriesyou over a lot of the menial challenges

(28:07):
that that other people will faceand will slow them down in the process
as they try to tackle every singletiny little problem in between.
A lot of timesyou can catapult yourself over that
and create enough momentumand it becomes memorable.
And I think that that's the real key.
Your business
is really
predicated upon not justwhether you win or lose,

(28:29):
but how people feel about youwhen it's over.
You know, in the collections businessthat we talked about
really the most interesting thingI could tell you about it is this
Our clients cared more
that we kept them in the loop ofwhat's happening than they cared
if we actuallycollected their money or not, you know?

(28:51):
And it's the same. Yeah, absolutely idea.
Yeah. Yeah.
I heard Chris Voss talk about thisand I thought it was brilliant.
Where as an FBI hostage negotiator,
he said we would give clientsthe no update update.
And he said that as aas a younger negotiator, he thought,
look, if I don't have an update,there's nothing to report.

(29:11):
Why would I call somebody and tell themthere's nothing to report?
And he said laterI realized that that was wrong, that
they do want to hear it,even if there's no update, that there's
no update, and that at least lets themknow that you're still working on it.
You're thinking about it because otherwisethey don't know and they're left in that

(29:32):
constant wondering of, well,are they working on it or are they not?
And so the no updateupdate is is incredible.
And I completely agree with you.
So the behavioral science behindthat is really interesting.
Right?
And it's this it'sour brains are wired for certainty.
And when we face uncertainty,our brains are telling ourselves

(29:54):
they're creating narratives
to try to convince ourselvesto be certain about something.
The dangerous part of that isit doesn't care if you're certainly right.
It just cares that you're certain.
So you could be certainly wrongabout something in your brains.
Okay with that.
So that no update updatekeeps those narratives at bay

(30:16):
and allows the story to unfold in ain a timely manner
that that can be a little more accuratethan its tendency to make up stories,
to try to get it to the point of certaintyso that it feels better.
And that'sthat's the real danger of that moment.
Yeah, yeah, I agree with that.
And how important is creating a sense

(30:38):
of certaintyin an otherwise uncertain world meaning?
And any time you do anything,there's an aspect of uncertainty.
As confident as you might bethat it's going to be okay,
whether it's driving your car,going to work or whatever. So.
So can you address that or touch uponthat?
It comes down to perception to me.
If you can help somebodywith a strong perception of something,

(31:03):
they find it easy to make themselvescertain about something.
And so, you know, my one of my favoritequotes of all time is what the
I see in the ears here, the mind believes,and that comes from Harry Houdini.
So if we sit there and listento the greatest illusionist of all time
tell us that the way that he gets youto believe in things that are real

(31:24):
is with your eyes, ears,
what they seeand hear is what they want to believe.
And that's the same ideawith certainty to me.
If I can get you to see somethinga certain way and listen to what
I'm saying, I can convince youof almost anything as long as I do it.
Well, yeah, yeah, 100%.

(31:46):
Yeah, I agree with that.
And I think there's an aspect of conveyingbelief or certainty.
You have to believe it and be certain about it yourself. Would you agree with that?
Yeah.
You know, and, and interestingenough, the work I did at Cornell
in the psychology leadership,one of the things they talk about
and they teach is that they'rereally only three ways to change a belief.

(32:08):
And this is this is interesting because
a lot of people believethat belief is a choice.
And belief is not a choice.
Belief is a result
of what you can convince yourself of.
So it's not a choice.
You have to be able to convince yourselfin order for you to believe.

(32:28):
You can't just choose to believe somethingif you don't.
If you aren't convinced that it's real.
So the three ways to do it are immediatelyyou try.
Your brain tries to look back to a timethat you've done something similar.
So if you are in the middle of a case,your brain's trying to convince you, Look,
you've been here before,you've won cases like this, you
you're okay to believethat you can win this this case.

(32:51):
So that's the first way to do it.
You look for a prior time that you've doneit yourself.
The second isyou need to start looking for other people
who have done this before.
And this is that social media drain,right?
Like we're lookingwe see that video that inspires us
because someone has donesomething that we thought was impossible.
Here's proof they're doing it,that our brain will accept

(33:13):
that as a as an appropriate wayto to shift the belief.
And then the third part is an expert.
If they view somebody as an expertand you explain something to them,
you can change their belief
if they believe in you,that you are an expert.
And so those are reallythe only three ways to shift the beliefs.

(33:33):
So when it comes to uncertainty,you have to sort of look in those three.
Can you can you get somebodyto see a time in their past
that they've done something,then they can be certain about it.
Can you show them an exampleof somebody else who has done it
so that it can ease their painor their their
their fearsthat they might not be able to do it?

(33:53):
And then the third one is,
do they believe you're an expertor can you bring in an expert?
I mean, if you think about what you coulddo, the reason you bring in experts
is because you're tryingto change somebody's belief.
That's exactly what it is.
Well, here's John Smith.
He is an expert in this trial.
And I want you to listento what he has to say,

(34:14):
because this is one of the three waysthat we change beliefs.
And so it's really interestingwhen you think about it through that lens.
Yeah, I completely agree with that.
So, Brant, if if our listeners want toto learn a little bit more about this
or your new book, where, wherecan they go to to be able to find you,
the easiest thing is to go to BrandtMen's Wired.com

(34:36):
brand Team NSW, Ammon at Brandt menswearand all social channels.
So whatever you wherever you want,I promise I'm there.
Just look for at Brandt menswearand the book should be out,
we hope, early next year. So.
So that's exciting for all of us.
Yeah, I'm really looking forwardto reading it, possibly listening to it

(34:58):
as it's out on Audible and listeningto two more of your lectures ahead.
You bet. Thanks so much for having me.
Yeah, thank you.
And to the listeners,thank you so much for joining us today.
If you haven't already,make sure you subscribe
so you can know when the next episodedrops.
And Brandt, thank you so much againfor joining me today and sharing
all of this wisdom. Thanks.
Advertise With Us

Popular Podcasts

Dateline NBC

Dateline NBC

Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com

Stuff You Should Know

Stuff You Should Know

If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.

The Breakfast Club

The Breakfast Club

The World's Most Dangerous Morning Show, The Breakfast Club, With DJ Envy And Charlamagne Tha God!

Music, radio and podcasts, all free. Listen online or download the iHeart App.

Connect

© 2025 iHeartMedia, Inc.