October 9, 2025 • 47 mins
Episode Overview
In this powerhouse episode that is originally streamed 7 months ago, John Kitchens, Jay Kinder, and Al Stasek dive deep into the future of real estate leadership, the evolution of brokerage models, and what the next 18 months will look like for the industry.
From Keller Williams’ latest strategic moves to the unstoppable rise of EXP Realty, the crew unpacks the business lessons, market realities, and leadership frameworks that define success in a rapidly changing market.
This conversation isn’t just about brokerage wars—it’s about building a moat around your business, leading through uncertainty, and embracing innovation, data, and AI to stay relevant in the new era of real estate.
What You’ll Learn in This Episode
The Future of Real Estate Leadership
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Why your moat—the defensibility of your business model—will determine survival in the next 18 months.
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How to think like a wartime CEO and lead through disruption.
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Why leadership loyalty, core values, and promoting from within build unbeatable organizations.
Lessons from the Legacy Brands
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What Keller Williams’ latest moves reveal about the state of traditional brokerages.
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Why culture kept KW alive—and why innovation is now leaving it behind.
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The pitfalls of the franchise model vs. the agility of cloud-based companies.
The Rise of EXP Realty
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Why EXP’s operational efficiency and same-day pay systems are redefining brokerage excellence.
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How EXP’s value stack—EOS leadership training, luxury branding, and legal support—creates a true “business in a box” for agents.
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The next strategic move EXP is making (hint: it’s about to cripple the competition).
AI, Data, and the Consumer Shift
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The race between brokerages to own data + AI—and why that’s where the real power lies.
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How AI will reshape not just agent operations but also the consumer buying and selling journey.
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Why the agents who learn to leverage AI now will dominate the next decade.
Scaling, Systems, and the Right People
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How fast growth exposes weak talent—and why “ones and threes” matter for scaling.
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Why every CEO must master the cycle of clarity, constraint, and culture.
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What EXP’s leadership lessons from Glen Sanford and Leo Pareja teach about visionary vs. wartime leadership.
Resources & Mentions
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JohnKitchens.coach – Executive coaching for agents ready to lead like CEOs.
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HoneyBadgerNation.com – Community, training, and resources for top-performing agents.
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Working Genius by Patrick Lencioni
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The Ultimate Question 2.0 by Fred Reichheld
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The Theory of Constraints by Eliyahu Goldratt
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The Culture Code by Daniel Coyle
Final Takeaway
The next era of real estate belongs to leaders—not just agents.
Those who master adaptability, embrace AI, and lead with clarity and conviction will outlast every market shift.
“The companies that win are the ones that keep adding value faster than anyone else.” - Jay Kinder
Connect with Us:
- Instagram: @johnkitchenscoach
- LinkedIn: @johnkitchenscoach
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Seven figure success starts whenyou start thinking like a CEO.
Welcome to the John Kitchens Coach podcastexperience as your host, John Kitchens.
Get ready to think bigger andtransform your business into
a path to lasting freedom.
What is happening?
Everybody, man.
Thank you guys.
Tuned another episode ofthe One Big Fire podcast.
(00:22):
We got all the boys in the house today,and before we jump in, I wanted to
share something with you guys and, andjust kind of think, because I think
it's gonna kind of lead into kind ofunderstanding moves and thoughts and,
and kind of where we need to be and,and, and what we need to be thinking
about for ourselves and our businessesmoving into moving into the future.
Um, I picked up something last March andI forget where, where I pulled it out of.
(00:47):
I was reading something this morningfrom, um, uh, you know, I, I've got
all the og you know, newsletters andemails coming in from all the, the
marketing OGs, Perry Marshall, um,had sent, um, over, over something I,
I clicked on and read this morning.
I've been reading his stuff quite a bitlately and, um, maybe kind of go back and.
(01:08):
Pull out the note and I, like I said, Ican't remember where I pulled it from,
but it talked about growth mindset.
A must moving forward, and thiswas from March of last year and it
said, you know, the three thingsthat we, we have to be paying
attention to, moving into the future.
And it kind of prefaced the thingis that you need to focus on,
if you had to grow by 20% yearover year, how would you do it?
(01:30):
Right?
So start to, to, to program yourselfin that, in that kind of, that
thought process is if you had to.
How would you do it?
And, but it talked about from agrowth mindset, there's three things.
Number one, continually innovate andevolve your products and services.
So I take Jay Abraham'sdefinition of innovation, and
(01:50):
that just means add more value.
So how do you continue to add morevalue to your services, your products,
your offers, and, um, continue tomake the offer even more irresistible.
Number two, have a strongdefensible business model.
Basically put a moat around your business.
That's the number two mostimportant thing to be thinking
(02:12):
about moving into the future.
And I'm gonna come, I'm gonna come backaround to, to Perry's, uh, message and
it's gonna hit on the number two point.
Number three is, and this is what we haveto, and, and this is taking this into
perspective, kind of the short, the storyyou shared right before we jumped in.
Now use a tough market tobreak away from the pack.
(02:33):
So like.
We're all experiencing a toughmarket, like lean into it,
like, thank you, I've got this.
This is gonna help me beeven more competitive.
I'm gonna lean into this tough market andit's gonna help me separate from the pack.
So those are the top three things like,like this was March of last year, so I
was reading this with Perry this morningand he kicked off the whole email and
(02:54):
he said, one question you must askyourself when starting any company,
and I would say, start or continueto maintain or grow any company is.
What kind of moat canwe build around this?
What kind of moat can webuild around this business?
And then in the next sentence, hegoes, for the next 18 months, the
width and the depth of your moat willdetermine if you survive or if you
(03:18):
get overrun the next 18 months, thewidth and the depth of your moat.
And if you take back to the secondbullet point of the moat is.
A strong defensible business model.
So continuing to dive in and, andcontinue to tweak on the business model.
We know we have one of the bestbusiness models, platforms that
(03:39):
we're plugged into in the entire realestate industry, in the entire space.
And so how is your business within.
Model to continue to make the, the,the moat for you even wider and deeper.
So it was just really interestinghow, kind of thinking about
that, going into it, into today'sconversation about the news that
unfolded yesterday with kws move.
(04:02):
Ooh, I like where we're going with
this.
So you sent over right beforeyou, you went right into to
Grok three, and you just starteddumping and having a conversation.
I, I would love for you to just kind ofunpack Yeah, man, and, and what we're,
what we're seeing and what we're hearingand, and kind of what we're thinking
about why the move was made with K Yeah.
(04:23):
Yeah.
I think, um, I, I, Ilearned a lot from Grok.
Um, uh, he, you know, he's,he's quite knowledgeable.
Um, and, and he, he laid out allthe likely, you know, direction and
things that, that they're doing.
We'll talk through some of that, but.
Um, you know, and I, you know, Ithink that is, you know, you know,
the direction they're going is, youknow, obvi, the obvious thing that's
happening is Gary's taking somechips off the table as he should.
(04:46):
Um, you know, that's you,that's, you know, kudos to him.
I think it's also, you know, probablysomewhat of a, a waving of the
white flag, you know, and we area tech company, you know, I think
that, you know, that's been, uh.
A lot of his personal wealth investedinto trying to build command and, and the
challenges of, of building tech versuspartnering or buying tech as an option.
(05:07):
Um, and, um, you know, you know the, youknow, the alignment with CoreLogic with
this, you know, the stone point capitaland their ability to leverage, you know,
the data, you know, to be hyper-localand integrate that into command.
And some things are, are.
They, they're, they're good plays onstone point's, you know, side two as well.
(05:28):
They learned a lesson and when theyinvested into, I think it was home,
home point, home light, no, it wasn'thome light, it was, um, I saw that too.
The mortgage
company they invested in and theyinvested at the peak of all refinances
and they just couldn't, they, youknow, they, they, their value, the
valuation at the time they enteredwas the wrong timing probably.
(05:49):
And so I think the timing of makingthis investment from their perspective,
it's, you know, it's likely all upside.
'cause they're getting in, at, at,you know, the, the third year of the,
you know, slowest year in real estate,you know, that we've had since 95.
So I think their timing of making theinvestment makes a lot of sense for, you
know, a five d you know, a five to 10year IPO, you know, or sooner, you know, I
(06:11):
think that's, they're, you know, they're,you know what, whether they're going to
be able to actually, you know, you know,I think the thing in real estate that is.
Is difficult to do is toincrease productivity per agent.
I mean, no matter what you do, um, youknow, you know, there's just a, a large
number of people that don't do anything.
And so you can provide all thetools, all the data, all the, you
know, all the, you know, the, the.
(06:32):
Pizazz.
But, you know, integrating thatinto, you know, an agent's daily
workflow is, is super difficult.
So, you know, we, you know, they'regonna get a natural increase in
valuation just from the, the uptick ofthe market over the next five years.
So that all makes, that all makes sense.
Um, so to me, you know, the, thewhole move makes sense, you know,
from, from their position, from Gary'sposition, the strategic alignment.
(06:57):
But it's, it's also, you know, it's like,you know, you know, it's like trying to,
you know, put new, new tires on a, youknow, on a, you know, Volkswagen, right?
I mean, it, it's a legacy model.
You remember, um, you know, we had,you know, our, our old mentor that
we, that we used to have HOA Uhhuh
John,
and one of the smartest people ever, ever.
(07:18):
Brilliant dude.
Brilliant and, um, wickedsmart in so many ways.
And, you know, he, he.
He always made a comment that hesaid that disruption in the brokerage
industry will come from an out.
It won't be you won't in, you can'tinnovate on your current legacy
model of franchise, for instance.
You can't innovate out of that.
(07:39):
So they've, they've, they've learnedthat they can't compete with the, the
cloud-based models, us being the biggest,and that they're getting murdered.
They're getting killed by us interms of, you know, recruiting
agents from, from Keller Williamsover to this cloud-based model.
It's better in so many ways, andthey can't compete with that.
So they, they can only go deeperin their own, um, in their own
legacy model and try to improvefranchise, you know, franchisees,
(08:02):
recruiting systems, productivityper agent, give them better tools.
But they're, you know, they're,they're really on a sinking ship as it
relates to the future of real estatebeing, you know, a, a tech enabled or
tech focused brokerage, cloud-based.
Uh, the efficiencies that are gained bythat allow you to just do things others,
they're never gonna be able to do.
And so, you know, so that, you know,
(08:23):
it's,
you know, on one hand I understandwhy they did it, probably the
best move they could have made.
Um, on the other hand, youknow, they're, you're, they're
organizing chairs on the Titanic.
Is, is the, uh, is is kind ofthe viewpoint I take on it.
Yeah.
Hey Al. So you, you know, wecome from, you know, the Realogy,
you know, Coldwell Banker world.
You, you had re max experience and um, uh.
(08:47):
Talked to one of our, um, one ofour rockstar honey badgers yesterday
that took a meeting with re maxjust, just to hear the pitch.
Right?
Yeah.
Just was kind of curious with the pitchand, you know, they got the, you know,
the Pepsi balloon now and, and just kindof seeing what their value proposition
was and what they, what they could offer.
And, you know, looked at kind of splitstructures and based upon, you know, he's
(09:07):
a solo agent based upon his production.
He would've given, you know,60 to 70,000 a year to re max.
And, and what they were tryingto say is that, oh, you would've
got an extra couple hundredthousand uptick by being at re max.
He's like, how, how?
Like, show me how I would, I wouldmake a couple extra a hundred
thousand off of being at re max.
(09:28):
He said, well, the brandis gonna bring that to you.
He's like, are you kidding me?
Like, seriously, are you kidding?
I mean, is that, is thatwhat you're telling me?
That the brand is gonna get me acouple extra a hundred thousand?
He goes, have you seen my social media?
Exp is nowhere on my social media.
It's me, it's me, I'm the brand.
So how is that going to, is gonna help?
It was just fascinating.
Um, at at what they were saying.
What is, what is kind of as, as yousee this with, with the legacy brands
(09:52):
and, and the moves like you havethat, you know, that experience and
I mean, you talk to as many agents aswe do on a day in and day out basis.
I mean, what are, what are youkind of thinking from a legacy
perspective that they're gonna do?
So I did just a little,I mean, I have no clue.
Nobody knows the crystal ball.
You know, um, we, we do know thisKeller Williams has, you know,
(10:15):
been able to stay in the gamepartially because of Gary Keller.
You know, he, he, he isa, he's a, he's a badass.
Mm-hmm.
I mean, he, he is a, a forcein our industry, an innovator.
Um, and he just wasn't able topivot when he needed to pivot
with this last big change of, ofthe cloud-based brokerage coming.
(10:36):
But he is, he's hung on.
So the question becomes this,in 2013, remix went public.
Dave Lineer said, all right, it's time.
He didn't probably knowhow many years he had me.
He's run into bad health.
Even when I was there multiple times.
He's not getting younger, and so hecashed out and went public in 2013.
(10:57):
Now they had 92,000 agents.
They have 52,000 agents.
That's a 40.
4% or whatever it is, drop inagent count since they went public.
Is that gonna be the same ofwhat we see with Keller Williams?
I don't think so, because I thinkone thing that Keller nailed
that re max didn't was culture.
(11:18):
And all my REM max friends out there aregonna disagree with me, but I lived it.
Um, and, and I witnessedfrom across the hall.
What Keller Williams did.
I mean, they, they, they really,the one thing Gary, I feel,
I feel he nailed was culture.
I mean, everyone talkedabout the Kool-Aid.
When you hear Kool-Aid, that's, thatmeans their culture's just rich.
People are bought into the vision.
(11:39):
They're bought into the leader.
And of course, you know, they'vehad issues they can't keep.
Um, you know, C-level executiveslong around long, and, and
that's probably attributed to,to Gary's hubris that's grown.
It's only grown I believe over the years.
Of, of this, you know, there's, there's,there's a sense of arrogance there.
(12:02):
And I, I have a lot of, I say thatwith a lot of respect because you
can't not respect Gary Keller.
Um, at the same time that hubris,I believe, has caused, um, you
know, the them to stop growing.
And we, we will see whathappens if, you know, re max.
They are continuing tostruggle even from last year.
I believe they're down 7% in agent count.
(12:24):
Their agent count keeps just dwindling.
Yeah.
And, um, is that gonna happen with Keller?
I don't think at thelevel that we saw re max.
And I think the reason is because of,you know, I think on average when you
look at a re max franchise, you, youknow, at least in the Cleveland area.
There's a lot of little mom and pop,maybe 20 agent re max offices, right?
(12:48):
You don't see 20 agent KellerWilliams offices often.
Usually they're, they're pretty, you know,80 to a hundred, sometimes three, 400.
I mean, they, they, they grew thesemarket centers more sustainably with
more agents, even though majority of 'emdon't sell a whole lot of real estate.
That is a big difference between re maxbecause of the fee, but remix, caved,
(13:09):
I mean very little REM max brokersI know actually charge the desk fee.
Only the top top agents pay that desk fee.
Everyone else is on a split.
Yeah,
additional split.
So they've kind of broken away fromtheir old model just to survive.
Re max offices are closing.
We just helped, helpedclose one in Charleston.
Mm-hmm.
With Caleb.
(13:29):
Yeah.
And, and Caleb and j jd.And, um, what did they do?
They find another broker owner to takeover the franchise, make a deal with
them, and that has not worked for them.
On, on the surface it may look like,oh, well, the office didn't close.
See, it's still open.
But truthfully, you know, the production'sgone, so there's nothing to sustain it.
(13:51):
So we'll see.
We'll see what happens.
Um, you know, I don't, I don't see Garysaying, sitting in the CEO or seat or,
or bouncing back and forth 'cause hewas bouncing back and forth from CEO to.
Whatever he was.
Yeah.
It'll be interesting tosee what, what pans out.
There's, there's a lot ofindicators, even, even on both sides.
Right.
Even you see re max, they have a lotof turnover in the leadership, in,
(14:12):
in leadership and even at the top.
So I mean, that's, that's a lotof telltale signs when you're
seeing, you know, a. There'sa lot of leadership movement.
It's like you look at, youknow, like NFL organizations.
When you see a lot of turnover inthe coaching, head coaching or GM
roles, what does that tell you?
Right?
There's some dysfunction going onwithin the entire organization.
So those are, those are somebehaviors, some signs there to,
to kind of pay attention to the,the one thing, you know that.
(14:37):
What are some things that we can pullout of this that can be like, Hey,
this is, this is probably a good move.
And, and I think you were talkingabout it a little bit with CoreLogic
and you know, what is, what iswhat, what could that mean for us?
Where, where to pay attention to ifwe know, hey, this is probably their
chess moves, this is probably howthey're gonna move across the board.
Where, where can wekind of take a say, ah.
That's a good idea.
(14:57):
We need to be payingattention to that as well.
Yeah, definitely the data, um, youknow, leveraging, you know, local,
you know, hyper-local data is, youknow, putting that in the hands, you
know, that's, you know, we, we, youknow, we would go to outside sources
for all of that, all of those things.
But having that bakedinto your technology.
It's probably on our roadmapat this point, I would imagine.
(15:19):
But, you know, we did the rightthing by partnering with tech,
you know, at least initially.
And so, you know, kind of the nextmove will, you know, need to be
somewhere in us, you know, leveragingdata and integrating it into tech
and just be, you know, arming theagents with the best information to
differentiate us from other agents.
(15:39):
And that that's what, if that's what KWis gonna, that is what they're gonna do.
But, um.
That, that's gonna be the, the thingthat we'll have to do to, to maintain,
you know, relevant as I think we'realready in a place where we provide the
best world class training of agents.
We've, we've taken that from them.
That used to be Keller Williams.
(16:00):
Used to be KW for sure.
Yeah.
I think we've taken that from them.
Um, the spot for that.
Um, and, and now it's, and at scale, Imean, it's the stuff we're doing, dude,
like, you know, I don't know how muchy'all, y'all, you guys weren't at the,
at that meeting we had last week, but.
Um, you, you saw the notes and listenedto it, but the, um, you know, the,
the, the team leader training thatthey're, that they're rolling out for
(16:22):
teams at k at, at, at exp is, is EOS.
Mm-hmm.
It's what we used to coach and trainevery single agent to for years.
Mm-hmm.
They're doing it every six weeks Forteams like that level of, uh, from a,
from a company, it's not being done.
And so that the fast cap program, likethe things that we're rolling out.
(16:43):
At scale for every agent to takeadvantage of in terms of the
odds of being successful or not.
It is world class.
Yeah.
Um,
and so I think, I think we have a,you know, a, a position there, you
know, and again, I think obviouslywe're, we're super profitable as it
relates to, you know, the overallcost structure of our, our business
model versus the legacy models.
(17:04):
And that gives us the ability to.
Bring on better people and, and run,run these business units and really,
you know, really execute at a high,super high level and very relevant.
And so that's, that's great.
You know, the, you know, that that nextpiece is gonna be competing on who has
the best data and information, which inthis day and age, the speed of things, you
know, that landscape changes every day.
(17:26):
And I think opportunity for usis gonna be, is gonna always, so
Jay, you, you think, so you, you
say it's data, I don't disagree.
Mm-hmm.
But.
Isn't it gonna be really a combination ofdata, the race for data and ai, who has
the most powerful ai um, in five years?
I don't know what our industry'sgonna look like in five years.
(17:47):
Mm-hmm.
It's not gonna look like what We likethis because AI's moving so fast.
What is it gonna replace?
What software is AI gonna replacewith all these, you know, all
these real estate brokeragesand, and their models, you know.
What, what we, and anybody that'scloud-based, that operates as one unit
not franchised out, has a huge advantage.
(18:09):
Mm-hmm.
Is, you know, those franchiseowners are only required to abide by
what's in the franchise agreement.
Beyond that, they can operate kind of.
Independently, you know, one expoffice, I'm sorry, one, one Keller
Williams office over here in Westlakedoes not operate the same one that
operates down there in Medina.
(18:30):
That doesn't operate.
They, they can make their own splits.
They can put a franchise, I'm, I'm sorry.
They can charge a transaction feeor not charge a transaction fee.
They can let their,it's all over the place.
There isn't a consistent model.
So how with, with AI growing at such arapid, I mean, I don't even, I can't even
imagine what it's gonna look like in five.
(18:51):
Yeah, they're,
they're gonna, I I, I wouldimagine they're gonna change that.
So, so, you know, it is, um.
And I don't know what, what, whatall they have the ability to do.
But Grock did point out thatthat that making changes to
the franchise agreements is, issomething that they would likely do.
Um, and so to me, like I, I just,we just recruited a KW agent.
(19:13):
Um, a hundred, a hundred plus transactionproducer and, you know, in a little town
of 6,000 in Texas with a 28,000 cap that'scrazy, like 28,000 plus the royalty.
So you're, you know, that, that'snot a competitive advantage.
You, you're gonna, you know, likeif you allow all your franchisees
to, to do whatever they want.
Um, you know, it, it, it's just,you know, it, it's, it's gonna be
(19:37):
difficult to compete when you're gonna,you have, well, these people over
here, we're losing agents over here.
Why?
Well, because they're, they'redoing, you know, $28,000 caps in a
market that it doesn't support that.
Yeah.
And so they, they're gonna haveto change that, I would think.
Um, which is gonna be, you know,there's no money in the franchise if
you're the franchise owner of KellerWilliams, unless you have 250 agents.
(19:58):
In that office, you're, you know, it'snot very profitable usually anyways.
It's not profitable.
That's what, you know, day jinxtold me years ago, but you know
that that's, that's gonna be,you know, that's gonna probably
upset the apple cart a little bit.
Some of these people, you know,might be looking to get out and,
and look to the, the new model.
I think there's a lot of disruptionthat can happen when they do make
those changes, because all they'retrying to do is make it profitable.
(20:20):
But, you know, the, the, that's,that's where all this money in
the model that we don't have.
You know, we don't, our, you know,there's no negotiating what our, our
cap 16 grand, our fees are the same.
You know, that's, um, it's adisadvantage that they're gonna
have in trying to fix that.
Yeah.
Hey, before we move on,every great business strategy
starts with one question.
What's really holding us back?
(20:42):
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It gives you insight into theeight areas that drive growth, and
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(21:03):
Now back to the show.
I, there, there's, um, a franchise.
There's a couple franchise KWfranchises here in my town.
One of 'em, um, you know, and they allowner groups, you know how that works.
Still put together, you know, maybe10 to 20 investors to open up a market
center, everyone kicks in, whatever.
(21:23):
Um, one of those owners.
Um, who's a great, great guy, um,owns, he's part owner of the franchise,
but he has his own office, so imagineall the money he's paying toward his
cap that's paying for the office, thelights, the coffee, all of those things.
Yet he has, he's leasing a completelydifferent office about a half a mile away.
(21:44):
Now, he was able to get away with that,I believe, because he is not putting
signage up or, or whatever, right.
There's another teamthat's trying to open up.
And they're getting, they,they, they won't let 'em.
So like we can literally,like if you're a team leader.
And you're listening to this andyou come to exp, you can open up an
office pretty much anywhere you want.
That's that the state of Ohio at least,or state of Texas, allows you to, sure.
(22:09):
You gotta go and do anapplication for a branch office
and it's approved every time.
Easy.
Now you're basically like this is, thisis like given the handles of the luggage
of an entrepreneurial real estate.
You know, prac practitionerthat wants to grow their team.
Sometimes they want their own placewhere they build their own culture.
Have police, you know, thetheir, I built an office.
(22:29):
You guys built an office.
Yeah.
You can't do that at Keller Williamsunless you get permission because there's
the franchise model, so you can't openanother office 5, 6, 7 miles down the
road because this person over here paidwhatever it is, 80 grand, whatever.
I don't know how much it costs fora franchise for Keller Williams,
but it blocks anyone else fromopening up a Keller Williams office.
(22:50):
Anywhere around there.
And, and that's, it's, that'shappening actually right now.
So I think the more we start seeingoffices being opened, you know, brick
and mortar offices by team leaders.
'cause they want their ownspace to grow their own culture,
have their own trainings,meetings, whatever, call nights.
And the competition just can't do itbecause the franchise doesn't allow it.
(23:13):
We're gonna start seeing some,uh, I think some more interest
in, in, in peaking on our model.
Yeah, yeah, for sure.
You know, one of the things thatkind of been thinking about just
in conversations over the last fewweeks as it kind of relates to your
question with ai, and like I said,I, I can't even imagine, um, I think.
We have to take into consideration who'sgonna make the play at the consumer
(23:36):
with buyers and sellers leveraging AI intheir home buying and selling process.
Um, you know, 'cause you got a lot ofagents right now who are just saying,
how can I use this to help my business?
Well, you got on the, theflip side of the coin.
You've got.
Consumers, buyers and sellers thatare using AI as well to help them
position their home, to be able tosell, to bring the most amount of money.
(23:56):
Buyers, how do I get into theideal home and the ideal market
and the ideal conditions.
So I think that has tobe taken into consum.
Some considerations.
I mean, imagine what, what,Zillow, or even if us, right?
If even if we flip the script to theconsumer to, you know, with, with ai, um.
To be able to help them in their, in theirbuying and selling process, because that's
(24:16):
where buyers and sellers are gonna go.
I mean, that's just,just human nature, right?
Behavior in where it's gonna trend.
So it's gonna be interesting to seehow that plays out and that factors
into, into the future as well.
Yes, sir.
Well, exciting times.
It is.
It is exciting times and we gotsome exciting things going on,
you know, here at exp as well.
You know, with, uh, that meeting.
(24:38):
I don't know if we're allowedto talk about that yet, Jay.
Yeah,
yeah.
You know, uh, yeah.
Uh, um, I think we probably.
We might want to give it a week or two.
Let her marinate.
You know, one thing though, and, andJane, you and I were talking about this
on Saturday, but um, you know, Cindy sentover kind of the value stack and I think,
um, I mean, shit, we've been here, what,seven years going on, eight years, and
(25:00):
there's so much that we don't even know.
That exp offers and I, I, I wouldchallenge all of you guys to really look
under the hood of what this company is.
The best way I like to say it, man, Ifeel, I feel like I'm going to a Chinese
buffet and it's just whatever I'm in themood for today is what I'm gonna get.
'cause that's what I wantand that's what I need.
(25:20):
And I feel like EXP has built that, likeyou said, with the team lead structure
that's teaching EOS and I don't evenknow what the investment is, but I can
promise you it's a fraction of what itwould cost to go get an EOS implementer
to implement EOS into your business.
Um, the fast cap program, like youlook at all of these, these things
that as, as teams trying to builda team, trying to build a business,
(25:42):
trying to build a company, you're like.
Damn man.
How do we install thedrive-through, right?
How do we get, how do we get takeout?
How do we get curb service?
Like, it's just, it's justlike, man, it's so heavy.
But yet, EXP is providing, theyhave the drive-through for you.
They have takeout, they havecurb service, they have all of
the things that you would need.
This was, this was a reallygood thought exercise.
(26:03):
I'm gonna share this with you.
And this, this came from Chaunceyoff of the expert mentors last week.
And, uh, Chauncey was like, listen,this is how I, I, I look at any business
venture and anything that I do, shegoes, I imagine myself standing.
At a blank box that is now my business.
And so when she started telling me this,'cause it made me go back to when we were
(26:26):
getting ready to take down the space nextto Texas Roadhouse in Lawton, Oklahoma.
And how we took in every detailinto consideration working with
Stacy, building out the plans.
We want this component.
What is it gonna look like from the curve?
What is it gonna, whatdoes the signage look like?
And that was just really importantunderstanding from, from the
way Chauncey broke it down.
(26:47):
She's like.
What do you see?
What's missing here?
Oh, you don't need asign, you have a signage.
Oh, you're walking up to the door.
What do you see?
What are your business hours?
Right?
Like all of those little details thatyou have to take into consideration,
and when you try to go do that onyour own, it is so heavy, so hard,
almost impossible, and it takes years.
(27:10):
Whereas I feel like what EXPsdone is that you can go and
install all of those components.
Right away.
They have everything there for you.
You want to bring on new agents?
Great.
Make 'em go through thefast cap program, right?
You're building a team.
Get into the team, lead production at afraction of the cost and the investment.
Install EOS into your business.
It's, it's just absolutely remarkable.
(27:31):
And then if you're in, if you havethe opportunity to play in the luxury
market, I think, I think exp luxuryis one of the best looks and feels of
any brokerage, any company out there.
It is so good.
The luxury stuff that EXP has is so good.
Yeah.
That it's, it's, it's really remarkableof what they've been able to do
just since we, since we've been hereover the last seven, eight years.
(27:52):
Well, you know, the, you know, the, um.
You know, and I geek out on this,I geek out on a lot of stuff, but I
geek out on operational efficiency.
I geek out on marketing.
Those are the two things I, I love.
You know, our operationalefficiency is incredible.
Like, you know, that, that is thebenefit, and this is probably the
most misunderstood, misunderstoodthing about exp like in Canada.
It takes sometimes a week,two weeks to get paid.
(28:13):
You get paid same day, like our sameday transaction close is 90% right now.
90% of transactions are, youknow, are settled and paid
within, um, within 24 hours.
And I think something like 66%of them are same day payment.
And so like the efficiencies thatare being, you know, like the
throttle that they're puttingon, how do we make it better?
How do we make it better?
(28:34):
How do we make it better?
You know, like, um, first level support.
So, you know, like if you ask aquestion, you know, in anywhere
in our ecosystem that you have aquestion, getting that answered at
a first level support is happening.
Reso, our resolution right now is 93%.
So 93% resolution, any problem,whatever it is, you have 63% of
that happens at first contact.
(28:54):
So.
I, I messed that up the other day.
'cause I had one that I was pushing backon and I was trying to go up the levels.
'cause I was like, there's no way I have,I had to, I had to set up my company
in Oklahoma to do business in Oklahoma.
It was easy to do.
I didn't realize how easy itwas, but I didn't wanna do it.
Um, and so, um, but you know, just like,you know, our NPS being 77, like I, you
know, we came from this world, right?
Like we understood NPS and measured it atevery area of the business that, you know,
(29:18):
the businesses that we were operating.
And we do that companywide, like every department.
I didn't realize that was that high.
77, bro.
Like that is unheard
of.
Listen guys.
Listen guys, like if you don'tlike at a company our size to
understand it's at 77 is remarkable.
If you guys don't understandwhat net promoter score is,
Google the ultimate question.
(29:38):
Go to Ultimate question 2.0.
Bain and Associates did the study backin what the nineties and it was what they
determined as to be the only truly um.
Uh, survey question that would determineif, if you would repeat or refer people to
do business with your, with your company.
And we're talking about applesof the world in the forties,
(29:59):
the fifties, like us to be 77.
They
say survey is considered goodbecause you take your, you know,
your detractors, which is onethrough seven, then you got passive.
Uh.
Seven and eight is passive.
Nine and 10 is is promoter.
And then you divide it.
So like a good score is in thethirties, like great is in the forties.
We're in the seventies.
Like to have agents happy.
(30:20):
Are you outta your mind?
Like it's crazy, like, you know, that's.
That, that really is a testamentto Leo and, and really pushing
on, uh, operational efficiencyand, and operational ex excellence
agent focused like that.
People don't know until they comeover and, you know, the statistic, 9.8
agents are coming back to EXP every day.
(30:42):
That's a lot.
But the number one reason that theycited is when you go back to a legacy
model and the way things are doneand the the, it would be like going
to Blockbuster and picking out avideo for, for you to watch tonight.
Like you're gonna do that when you'regonna be like, what the hell am I doing?
This is so slow.
Why don't I just watch it on Netflix?
Right?
Like it would never go back to that.
(31:02):
But that's what.
When agents come back, they'relike, I tried, you know, it sounded
really good, but I couldn't do it.
It's just too slow to
be, to be clear on what you said,Jay, it was nine point whatever
agents per day coming back thathad already been here, left.
Yep.
Grass was, they thoughtthe grass was greener.
Yep.
They went to another brokerage andthey, there's nine coming back a day.
A day.
(31:23):
Yep.
Yeah.
You know what I'm guessing those areproductive agents that are coming back.
Right.
I believe the ones thatare not coming back.
For the most part, not alwaysare the unproductive agents.
They're probably just hanging itup or they're going to where they
can find the cheapest, cheapestthing to hang their license or
whatever.
Yeah, I can't, yeah, the, youknow, the, uh, you know, we went
through all the attrition numbersand it's like, you know, 70, 80% of
(31:45):
the agents sold one home or less.
Like, it's the agents that come toproduce, they're not going anywhere.
And you know, you know, our onboardingright now, 94% onboarded within 24 hours.
Like that's.
That's hard to do.
That's hard to do.
That's
remarkable.
And I think it's a lot of the, alot of the agents that may be, they
may be left maybe for the grass orgreener or they left because of the,
the challenges and the strugglesthat we, we fought through, right?
(32:07):
Mm-hmm.
And here's the other thing.
Cindy and I, Cindy's on here.
Um, we were, Cindy had a, had a greatconversation with Cindy last week, um,
you know, kind of sharing the value stackfrom exp. So she, she, she shared that
over and just made me kind of open my eyesup to be like, what I don't know about,
and I know there's a lot of value there.
There's more that we don't even know.
She brought up a really importantthing, and this was, this was one of
(32:29):
my big, my big things and, and whatCindy and I were talking about is that.
You don't realize this until you haveyour own company and you're paying
your own insurance and you're payingyour own e and o, and she goes, the
thing that she's most thankful for,well, I mean 25 years at ERA, but.
The one thing that was just likea heavy lift off of, off of my
shoulders to where I didn't have toworry about anymore is thinking about
(32:52):
where the next lawsuit's coming from.
Mm-hmm.
And, and until you've been in that,in that role to where you have to pay
the insurance, you have to deal withevery dang complaint that comes in
and what, what she was raving about.
Another part of the value stackis the legal team at exp. Mm-hmm.
And they are world.
(33:13):
Class, and she shared story after storyafter story for her that were, you know,
the legal team at exp had helped her.
When you, when you do the amount ofbusiness like she does, and, and like a
lot of, a lot of the folks at exp it's,it's, you sleep better at night knowing
that you got good legal protection andlegal, legal, uh, structure behind.
A
hundred percent.
(33:34):
Yeah, that's, you know, the, the, youknow, I wanna make a point here too,
you know, they went through, they gaveus the numbers of, of where agents
had, where their, the majority agentsare coming from, which is Keller
Williams re Max, and Coldwell Banker.
And, and I wanna make this point,the, the agents that we, that we lost
majority last, the last, last yearwas real Keller Williams Epic, LPT.
(33:57):
You know, then, and then whoknows, wherever they to a job
is where most of them went to.
But the ones that, thattook the most from it.
So we took on this onslaught ofcompetition that we had never
taken selling on our story.
Hey, you come over here, you'regonna be the next Brent Dove.
It's gonna be great.
And that's, that's what, that'swhat they were selling on.
We survived that.
It was, that was, that was somethingwe had never experienced before.
(34:19):
The last two years we experienced it.
Those agents are all gonnacome back, by the way.
Spoiler.
I'm not gonna tell.
I we can't give you what we, I don't evenknow if we can say it yet, but I'm gonna
tell you right now, what's gonna happen in2025 is we are crippling the competition.
We are cri and it, it's, it's themost strategic move I've seen the
company make since I've been here.
(34:39):
I'm more excited now than I'vebeen since I first joined exp. What
they're about to roll out, markmy words, is going to destroy our
competitors in, in the, in the, um.
And in the cloud-based space, likeour, our actual, I don't even, I don't
even consider 'em competitors anymore.
It's that big of a deal.
Yeah.
And so, like, y y'all have no idea.
(35:00):
If you wanna reach out to me ona side note, I'll talk to you.
But like, I'm the people that are getcatching wind to what's coming are like,
this is not really happening, is, isreally happening, like they're doing it.
But I think what I think'sgonna happen, Jay, is, is, is
everyone's gonna follow and copy.
Because they can't Of course.
But
let me, let me make a, let memake a really important point.
So when we were at 20,000 agentsand, you know, from 12 to 20 to
(35:23):
40 and, and you know, then 60, 80.
It was like trying to keep thewheels between the ditches.
Like it was not easy.
There was problems.
There was, there were people in, inkey roles that were not the right
people that we had to top grade from.
What, what, what were you saying?
The agent count between what I'm justsaying, like from like even going
(35:44):
from like 12 to 20 and then 20 to 40,like that whole space of like, what
got you here won't get you there.
And yeah.
Seeing how I, you know, just onthe sidelines watching like, all
right, we got 2000 employees.
This is a problem over here.
This broker is a problem.
We gotta fix this.
Next thing you know, it's fixed.
And you know, that was fascinating to me.
And what I see happeningwith our competition is.
(36:06):
They're operating on a fractionof the dollars that we operate on.
We got a 16 cap, you know, 12,000cap at one of our competitors.
The, they're operating on less dollars.
They can't go solve problemslike that as quickly.
They can't, they don'thave the money to do it.
So you gotta, now you're an agent overthere and the sky's falling, which
is what's gonna feel like for thesecompanies in in, in about a month.
(36:26):
They're, they're not gonna be ableto take action to solve that problem.
This is tremendous amount of turmoil and,and already probably prob they don't have
enough money to go solve all the problemsthat need to be solved in order to operate
efficiently while we're at scale and,and we're, you know, just adding more,
adding more, adding more, adding morevalue, value, value to the value prop.
(36:47):
Going back to how you started this,you know, this whole podcast, John,
we, you know, we're just addingmore value, more value, more value.
They can't even solve problems at a pace.
And then top grade talent fast enoughto keep up with, with managing growth.
So they gotta slow down growth.
'cause growth sucks cash.
So it's fascinating.
It's gonna be interesting to see.
I used to think that we would have,it would be like a Google, it would be
(37:07):
like a Google Yahoo thing, you know?
And you know, competitor.
Go ahead.
No, I was gonna say it's gonnabe, it's, I think it's gonna be
really interesting looking back andbeing able to see a couple things.
One, that this, this kind of, uh, wherewe've kind of held with growth for the
last 18, 24 months, I think we're gonnalook back at it at as, at a blessing.
(37:31):
Oh, for sure.
And,
and, and the reason is,is that when you look at.
The, the, the lessons of,of as we were going so fast.
So I just wanna, I wanna share thiswith everybody and this was, this was
a very important get from one of the,one of our crucial mentors, clay Mask.
And what Clay said is ones and threes.
Because what happens is that when youlook at, and, and this is how we operate,
(37:53):
you guys, if you're not operating thisway, you've gotta think through this.
And through the theory of constraints,it's always, you know, the what,
the how, the who, and when.
When you've got a great what,and you got a great how, then
the constraint is always talent.
It's always who's, and so the lessonthat Clay was telling us is that
you're gonna outgrow your people.
(38:14):
And when you grow fast through onesand threes, and basically what he's
saying is the people that can get youto, to 3 million, they're probably
not gonna get you to 10 millionwhen they can get you to 10 million.
They're not gonna get you to 30 million.
30 million's.
Not gonna get you to a hundred ahundred's, not gonna get you to 300.
Yep.
And, and you, you know,you're gonna outgrow people.
What was happening is we were growingso fast, we were outgrowing people.
(38:35):
Exactly.
And, and so once, once the, the we, westagnated on growth, it gave us a chance.
To breathe for a second, get all of ourshit together, get all of our right,
who's in place to make that next jump.
And and that's what,that's what's happening.
That's what we're seeing exactly happened.
We got the right people.
So that's, to me, when I see whathappened, that was the lesson.
We're gonna look back and we're be like,thank God we got to breathe for a second.
(38:58):
And, and we got everything in place.
Yeah.
So, good.
John.
Good stuff.
Yeah.
The, the, the, you're right.
Which is, which kind of leads into whythe hire with Leo being tagged as CEO,
couldn't have come at a better time.
It was necessary.
Like when you think about 2024 worst,you're in real estate sales since 95, and
(39:19):
let's just sandwich an NAR lawsuit on, youknow, the settlement on top of all that.
We had the best leader that we could havepossibly at the right time, four time.
And what's cool too, he wasn't new tothe company 'cause he was still, you
know, he was, he was already in a,you know, I dunno if it was C-level,
but yeah, probably C level leadership.
And so he already knewthe pulse of the company.
(39:41):
He already knew how to work with Glen.
Well, all those things, you know,bringing someone from the outside
would not have been a great move.
Man, we got lucky with Leo.
Yeah.
Do you know, do you know?
And, and this was one of my favoritetakes going through, listening to, um, you
know, the Trumps and the Elon's leavingup to, I mean, on, on the podcast circuit.
And Eric, Eric Trump was on, uh, thePBD podcast, um, after, after his dad
(40:06):
was on, before, before the election.
And he really broke down theentire Trump organization.
And, and you guys listen in.
I, I mean, I don't, I don't, Idon't care what you think, what,
what you believe, what side you'reon or not, but here's the lesson.
He goes, we've had people thathave been with our, with our
organization for 40 years.
When I hear that, I go, leadership isthe number one thing, and they believe
(40:27):
in loyalty and they promote from within.
He goes, he goes.
One of my favorite things is to takesomebody that started out as a busboy.
Now they're managing one of our, oneof our hotels, one of our signature
hotels, and they started out as a busboy.
He goes, that gives us the mostfulfillment and when you can hire and
grow from within and make those movesinstead of bringing from the outside.
(40:51):
You win.
I mean, you just, you, youjust got such a deep bench.
And, and I think no matter what happensto, to our point with, with ai, the
disruptions, what's gonna happen inthe next four or 5, 10, 20 years?
Leadership will always be leading the way.
Yeah.
And when you've got the rightleadership in the right people.
You have a set of guidinglights and core values.
'cause you, what you, what you weretalking about was with the core values.
(41:13):
Yep.
I default back to the decisionthat's about to roll out, guys.
Like, listen, this company does notmake decisions unless they run 'em
through the filters of the core values.
Yep.
Agile.
And we do things that make thecompany even more sustainable.
Gotta be better for the eight.
Yep.
Yeah.
And dude, dude, yeah.
And, you know, let, and let's go.
You know, this, this,this thing that's coming.
Like I never, I, I didn't see it.
(41:35):
I did not see this move.
I didn't see it.
And that's, it's a testament toGlen at the helm, like when you
got a true visionary at the helmthat can sit back and be like,
Hmm, how can we make this better?
What's, what are all, you know,what are all the secondary impacts
of making a certain decisionand be like, that's not good.
That's, that's not gonna serve anyone.
Well, let's not do it thisway, let's do it this way.
(41:57):
And like, so I'm, I'm super pumped that.
You know that we have the rightvisionary, um, founder with a vision
that's focused on agent, that'sobsessed with what's best for the agent.
And then operationally having theright CEO, that's of absolute dog.
Wartime, wartime, CEO, wartime executionfocused, maniacal about it, dude.
(42:21):
All in.
I love it, man.
It's, and
I think his background, man, I think, Ithink we're seeing, it's so fun to watch.
It is fun to watch.
I think.
I think his, his experience andhis background in the REO space,
um, where you have to be wartime.
Playing that game.
Yeah.
Um, you know, kind of lended into, youknow, kind of his, his philosophy and
skillset, navigating the waters ahead.
(42:41):
And for you guys that don't know, Imean, we're talking about war time
and peace time generals and leaders.
Um, you know, when, when you're, whenyou're into a headwind, you gotta
have, you gotta have a war time.
Um, in a tailwind like what wesaw, 20, 21, 22, you can be a
peacetime general and be, you know.
Kumbaya lovey-dovey and lessaccountability sliding through
the cracks a little bit.
But when you're into aheadwind, details matter.
(43:03):
Accountability, executionis, is everything.
I mean, going back to, we started theconversation out with Gary Keller.
He's a wartime CEO.
Yeah, he's, he's strapped on.
Yes, he is.
He's strapped on, you know,the grenades and everything.
More than one war that that man's fought.
Yes, he has.
Yeah.
Just mad respect for him.
Yeah.
And Dave Line, you know, likeLiger started re max in 1973.
(43:25):
That was the year I was born.
Him and Gail, manbattles, federal battles.
Everyone trying to keep that's,
those were the OGs of the industry.
Man.
They rolled out.
Yeah.
And they took all the arrows andthey were like, oh yeah, we doing it
this way.
If it wasn't really for those two guys,I don't even know, you know, if exp would
really exist or real or any of these.
(43:46):
Because they paved the way.
Trust me.
Yeah.
They tried ke they tried everything.
When I say they, I'm talking aboutthe old legacy models right now.
Now we're we're saying that potentiallythey're a legacy model, right?
Right.
But the old legacy models did everything.
They conspired to keep them out ofthe market and, and did everything.
When you talk about arrows.
(44:07):
Dave Lineer when he had really long hair.
The reason, I don't know if everybodyknows this, but he had a ponytail.
The reason is 'cause he swore he wouldnot cut his hair until he won the
federal trial against re realty oneand Smy Kramer here in Cleveland, Ohio.
He was in federal courtbattling it out and he won.
And, uh, talk about a strategist, right?
(44:27):
Kind of reminds me a little bitof, of, of Trump and how he's
negotiating these big things, right?
Like Dave went in.
Rented out every hotel room in theclosest hotel room to the federal court
building so that the other legal teamcould not stay there for this long trial.
They had to stay milesaway and it was cold.
You know, like just these, I love it.
(44:48):
Rules, right?
Like that's, I'll be honest with you, thatis exactly why I joined REM Max in 20.
I think it was 2007 was because I'm like,I'm following that dude into fucking Adam.
That's the guy I'm followingDave, because, you know,
so, um, yeah, we'll see.
We'll, you know, it's fun to watchall this and see, but, um, they
definitely took it and, um, I'mjust, I'm just excited about.
(45:12):
I'm excited to see this announcementin about 30, 30 days or so.
Um, it's gonna change the game.
I do believe it's actually just likeother companies when they came along
and, and gave us some competition andstarted making us improve our model.
Yeah.
All this is gonna do.
It's gonna, it's gonna force.
It's, it's a chess move.
They, I don't know that theycan't not like follow suit with it
(45:34):
because it's fricking brilliant.
And if they stay, I hope they do.
Because it's gonna makeit a lot easier for us,
I guess.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Fellows.
Amazing conversation.
Um, really, truly what the whole OneBig Fire, um, conversation podcast
really embodies and all about.
And, you know, uh, appreciateyou guys tuning into us.
Lock it in.
(45:54):
I mean, we come live, you know.
12, 12 15 Eastern every Tuesday.
So lock that in.
And, uh, love to, love to seeyou guys continue to join us.
Um, you know, push and promote the show.
Uh, we typically have a guest inwith us, uh, but we had the, the
opportunity, the three of us get to.
Chop it up today, which is always fun.
Um, I know we've got some guests,uh, some rock stars lined up in
(46:17):
the coming weeks, so lock this intoyour calendar, set a reminder and,
uh, make sure to stay tuned in.
Also
for no other reason to see, youknow, uh, Jay's jersey collection
continue to grow every podcast we do.
It's pretty
epic.
It's gotten a little outta control here.
Pretty epic.
My wife's like, what?
She's like, I love you.
(46:37):
You redneck.
I was like, what?
And she's like, you got these,like, at least get better hangers.
I was like, I'm not Discip.
Display these for anybody else.
This is for me.
I don't know, podcast.
This is, they're all over,they're all over the place.
I'm about to get 'em all framed then.
I don't know what I'm gonna do with them.
Oh, pretty, pretty freaking epic.
All right guys.
Check out honey vaccination.com.
Any anything that you needfor us, uh, we're there.
(46:59):
It's the number one go-toresource for everything that we
do around the Honey Badger Nation.
Honey badger nation.comand, uh, hit us up.
We'll see you guys next time.
Appreciate you later.
Thanks for tuning in.
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strategy, real accountability andproven systems, check out my executive
(47:21):
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Seven figure success starts whenyou start thinking like a CEO.
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What is happening?
Everybody, man.
Thank you guys.
Tuned another episode ofthe One Big Fire podcast.
(00:22):
We got all the boys in the house today,and before we jump in, I wanted to
share something with you guys and, andjust kind of think, because I think
it's gonna kind of lead into kind ofunderstanding moves and thoughts and,
and kind of where we need to be and,and, and what we need to be thinking
about for ourselves and our businessesmoving into moving into the future.
Um, I picked up something last March andI forget where, where I pulled it out of.
(00:47):
I was reading something this morningfrom, um, uh, you know, I, I've got
all the og you know, newsletters andemails coming in from all the, the
marketing OGs, Perry Marshall, um,had sent, um, over, over something I,
I clicked on and read this morning.
I've been reading his stuff quite a bitlately and, um, maybe kind of go back and.
(01:08):
Pull out the note and I, like I said, Ican't remember where I pulled it from,
but it talked about growth mindset.
A must moving forward, and thiswas from March of last year and it
said, you know, the three thingsthat we, we have to be paying
attention to, moving into the future.
And it kind of prefaced the thingis that you need to focus on,
if you had to grow by 20% yearover year, how would you do it?
(01:30):
Right?
So start to, to, to program yourselfin that, in that kind of, that
thought process is if you had to.
How would you do it?
And, but it talked about from agrowth mindset, there's three things.
Number one, continually innovate andevolve your products and services.
So I take Jay Abraham'sdefinition of innovation, and
(01:50):
that just means add more value.
So how do you continue to add morevalue to your services, your products,
your offers, and, um, continue tomake the offer even more irresistible.
Number two, have a strongdefensible business model.
Basically put a moat around your business.
That's the number two mostimportant thing to be thinking
(02:12):
about moving into the future.
And I'm gonna come, I'm gonna come backaround to, to Perry's, uh, message and
it's gonna hit on the number two point.
Number three is, and this is what we haveto, and, and this is taking this into
perspective, kind of the short, the storyyou shared right before we jumped in.
Now use a tough market tobreak away from the pack.
(02:33):
So like.
We're all experiencing a toughmarket, like lean into it,
like, thank you, I've got this.
This is gonna help me beeven more competitive.
I'm gonna lean into this tough market andit's gonna help me separate from the pack.
So those are the top three things like,like this was March of last year, so I
was reading this with Perry this morningand he kicked off the whole email and
(02:54):
he said, one question you must askyourself when starting any company,
and I would say, start or continueto maintain or grow any company is.
What kind of moat canwe build around this?
What kind of moat can webuild around this business?
And then in the next sentence, hegoes, for the next 18 months, the
width and the depth of your moat willdetermine if you survive or if you
(03:18):
get overrun the next 18 months, thewidth and the depth of your moat.
And if you take back to the secondbullet point of the moat is.
A strong defensible business model.
So continuing to dive in and, andcontinue to tweak on the business model.
We know we have one of the bestbusiness models, platforms that
(03:39):
we're plugged into in the entire realestate industry, in the entire space.
And so how is your business within.
Model to continue to make the, the,the moat for you even wider and deeper.
So it was just really interestinghow, kind of thinking about
that, going into it, into today'sconversation about the news that
unfolded yesterday with kws move.
(04:02):
Ooh, I like where we're going with
this.
So you sent over right beforeyou, you went right into to
Grok three, and you just starteddumping and having a conversation.
I, I would love for you to just kind ofunpack Yeah, man, and, and what we're,
what we're seeing and what we're hearingand, and kind of what we're thinking
about why the move was made with K Yeah.
(04:23):
Yeah.
I think, um, I, I, Ilearned a lot from Grok.
Um, uh, he, you know, he's,he's quite knowledgeable.
Um, and, and he, he laid out allthe likely, you know, direction and
things that, that they're doing.
We'll talk through some of that, but.
Um, you know, and I, you know, Ithink that is, you know, you know,
the direction they're going is, youknow, obvi, the obvious thing that's
happening is Gary's taking somechips off the table as he should.
(04:46):
Um, you know, that's you,that's, you know, kudos to him.
I think it's also, you know, probablysomewhat of a, a waving of the
white flag, you know, and we area tech company, you know, I think
that, you know, that's been, uh.
A lot of his personal wealth investedinto trying to build command and, and the
challenges of, of building tech versuspartnering or buying tech as an option.
(05:07):
Um, and, um, you know, you know the, youknow, the alignment with CoreLogic with
this, you know, the stone point capitaland their ability to leverage, you know,
the data, you know, to be hyper-localand integrate that into command.
And some things are, are.
They, they're, they're good plays onstone point's, you know, side two as well.
(05:28):
They learned a lesson and when theyinvested into, I think it was home,
home point, home light, no, it wasn'thome light, it was, um, I saw that too.
The mortgage
company they invested in and theyinvested at the peak of all refinances
and they just couldn't, they, youknow, they, they, their value, the
valuation at the time they enteredwas the wrong timing probably.
(05:49):
And so I think the timing of makingthis investment from their perspective,
it's, you know, it's likely all upside.
'cause they're getting in, at, at,you know, the, the third year of the,
you know, slowest year in real estate,you know, that we've had since 95.
So I think their timing of making theinvestment makes a lot of sense for, you
know, a five d you know, a five to 10year IPO, you know, or sooner, you know, I
(06:11):
think that's, they're, you know, they're,you know what, whether they're going to
be able to actually, you know, you know,I think the thing in real estate that is.
Is difficult to do is toincrease productivity per agent.
I mean, no matter what you do, um, youknow, you know, there's just a, a large
number of people that don't do anything.
And so you can provide all thetools, all the data, all the, you
know, all the, you know, the, the.
(06:32):
Pizazz.
But, you know, integrating thatinto, you know, an agent's daily
workflow is, is super difficult.
So, you know, we, you know, they'regonna get a natural increase in
valuation just from the, the uptick ofthe market over the next five years.
So that all makes, that all makes sense.
Um, so to me, you know, the, thewhole move makes sense, you know,
from, from their position, from Gary'sposition, the strategic alignment.
(06:57):
But it's, it's also, you know, it's like,you know, you know, it's like trying to,
you know, put new, new tires on a, youknow, on a, you know, Volkswagen, right?
I mean, it, it's a legacy model.
You remember, um, you know, we had,you know, our, our old mentor that
we, that we used to have HOA Uhhuh
John,
and one of the smartest people ever, ever.
(07:18):
Brilliant dude.
Brilliant and, um, wickedsmart in so many ways.
And, you know, he, he.
He always made a comment that hesaid that disruption in the brokerage
industry will come from an out.
It won't be you won't in, you can'tinnovate on your current legacy
model of franchise, for instance.
You can't innovate out of that.
(07:39):
So they've, they've, they've learnedthat they can't compete with the, the
cloud-based models, us being the biggest,and that they're getting murdered.
They're getting killed by us interms of, you know, recruiting
agents from, from Keller Williamsover to this cloud-based model.
It's better in so many ways, andthey can't compete with that.
So they, they can only go deeperin their own, um, in their own
legacy model and try to improvefranchise, you know, franchisees,
(08:02):
recruiting systems, productivityper agent, give them better tools.
But they're, you know, they're,they're really on a sinking ship as it
relates to the future of real estatebeing, you know, a, a tech enabled or
tech focused brokerage, cloud-based.
Uh, the efficiencies that are gained bythat allow you to just do things others,
they're never gonna be able to do.
And so, you know, so that, you know,
(08:23):
it's,
you know, on one hand I understandwhy they did it, probably the
best move they could have made.
Um, on the other hand, youknow, they're, you're, they're
organizing chairs on the Titanic.
Is, is the, uh, is is kind ofthe viewpoint I take on it.
Yeah.
Hey Al. So you, you know, wecome from, you know, the Realogy,
you know, Coldwell Banker world.
You, you had re max experience and um, uh.
(08:47):
Talked to one of our, um, one ofour rockstar honey badgers yesterday
that took a meeting with re maxjust, just to hear the pitch.
Right?
Yeah.
Just was kind of curious with the pitchand, you know, they got the, you know,
the Pepsi balloon now and, and just kindof seeing what their value proposition
was and what they, what they could offer.
And, you know, looked at kind of splitstructures and based upon, you know, he's
(09:07):
a solo agent based upon his production.
He would've given, you know,60 to 70,000 a year to re max.
And, and what they were tryingto say is that, oh, you would've
got an extra couple hundredthousand uptick by being at re max.
He's like, how, how?
Like, show me how I would, I wouldmake a couple extra a hundred
thousand off of being at re max.
(09:28):
He said, well, the brandis gonna bring that to you.
He's like, are you kidding me?
Like, seriously, are you kidding?
I mean, is that, is thatwhat you're telling me?
That the brand is gonna get me acouple extra a hundred thousand?
He goes, have you seen my social media?
Exp is nowhere on my social media.
It's me, it's me, I'm the brand.
So how is that going to, is gonna help?
It was just fascinating.
Um, at at what they were saying.
What is, what is kind of as, as yousee this with, with the legacy brands
(09:52):
and, and the moves like you havethat, you know, that experience and
I mean, you talk to as many agents aswe do on a day in and day out basis.
I mean, what are, what are youkind of thinking from a legacy
perspective that they're gonna do?
So I did just a little,I mean, I have no clue.
Nobody knows the crystal ball.
You know, um, we, we do know thisKeller Williams has, you know,
(10:15):
been able to stay in the gamepartially because of Gary Keller.
You know, he, he, he isa, he's a, he's a badass.
Mm-hmm.
I mean, he, he is a, a forcein our industry, an innovator.
Um, and he just wasn't able topivot when he needed to pivot
with this last big change of, ofthe cloud-based brokerage coming.
(10:36):
But he is, he's hung on.
So the question becomes this,in 2013, remix went public.
Dave Lineer said, all right, it's time.
He didn't probably knowhow many years he had me.
He's run into bad health.
Even when I was there multiple times.
He's not getting younger, and so hecashed out and went public in 2013.
(10:57):
Now they had 92,000 agents.
They have 52,000 agents.
That's a 40.
4% or whatever it is, drop inagent count since they went public.
Is that gonna be the same ofwhat we see with Keller Williams?
I don't think so, because I thinkone thing that Keller nailed
that re max didn't was culture.
(11:18):
And all my REM max friends out there aregonna disagree with me, but I lived it.
Um, and, and I witnessedfrom across the hall.
What Keller Williams did.
I mean, they, they, they really,the one thing Gary, I feel,
I feel he nailed was culture.
I mean, everyone talkedabout the Kool-Aid.
When you hear Kool-Aid, that's, thatmeans their culture's just rich.
People are bought into the vision.
(11:39):
They're bought into the leader.
And of course, you know, they'vehad issues they can't keep.
Um, you know, C-level executiveslong around long, and, and
that's probably attributed to,to Gary's hubris that's grown.
It's only grown I believe over the years.
Of, of this, you know, there's, there's,there's a sense of arrogance there.
(12:02):
And I, I have a lot of, I say thatwith a lot of respect because you
can't not respect Gary Keller.
Um, at the same time that hubris,I believe, has caused, um, you
know, the them to stop growing.
And we, we will see whathappens if, you know, re max.
They are continuing tostruggle even from last year.
I believe they're down 7% in agent count.
(12:24):
Their agent count keeps just dwindling.
Yeah.
And, um, is that gonna happen with Keller?
I don't think at thelevel that we saw re max.
And I think the reason is because of,you know, I think on average when you
look at a re max franchise, you, youknow, at least in the Cleveland area.
There's a lot of little mom and pop,maybe 20 agent re max offices, right?
(12:48):
You don't see 20 agent KellerWilliams offices often.
Usually they're, they're pretty, you know,80 to a hundred, sometimes three, 400.
I mean, they, they, they grew thesemarket centers more sustainably with
more agents, even though majority of 'emdon't sell a whole lot of real estate.
That is a big difference between re maxbecause of the fee, but remix, caved,
(13:09):
I mean very little REM max brokersI know actually charge the desk fee.
Only the top top agents pay that desk fee.
Everyone else is on a split.
Yeah,
additional split.
So they've kind of broken away fromtheir old model just to survive.
Re max offices are closing.
We just helped, helpedclose one in Charleston.
Mm-hmm.
With Caleb.
(13:29):
Yeah.
And, and Caleb and j jd.And, um, what did they do?
They find another broker owner to takeover the franchise, make a deal with
them, and that has not worked for them.
On, on the surface it may look like,oh, well, the office didn't close.
See, it's still open.
But truthfully, you know, the production'sgone, so there's nothing to sustain it.
(13:51):
So we'll see.
We'll see what happens.
Um, you know, I don't, I don't see Garysaying, sitting in the CEO or seat or,
or bouncing back and forth 'cause hewas bouncing back and forth from CEO to.
Whatever he was.
Yeah.
It'll be interesting tosee what, what pans out.
There's, there's a lot ofindicators, even, even on both sides.
Right.
Even you see re max, they have a lotof turnover in the leadership, in,
(14:12):
in leadership and even at the top.
So I mean, that's, that's a lotof telltale signs when you're
seeing, you know, a. There'sa lot of leadership movement.
It's like you look at, youknow, like NFL organizations.
When you see a lot of turnover inthe coaching, head coaching or GM
roles, what does that tell you?
Right?
There's some dysfunction going onwithin the entire organization.
So those are, those are somebehaviors, some signs there to,
to kind of pay attention to the,the one thing, you know that.
(14:37):
What are some things that we can pullout of this that can be like, Hey,
this is, this is probably a good move.
And, and I think you were talkingabout it a little bit with CoreLogic
and you know, what is, what iswhat, what could that mean for us?
Where, where to pay attention to ifwe know, hey, this is probably their
chess moves, this is probably howthey're gonna move across the board.
Where, where can wekind of take a say, ah.
That's a good idea.
(14:57):
We need to be payingattention to that as well.
Yeah, definitely the data, um, youknow, leveraging, you know, local,
you know, hyper-local data is, youknow, putting that in the hands, you
know, that's, you know, we, we, youknow, we would go to outside sources
for all of that, all of those things.
But having that bakedinto your technology.
It's probably on our roadmapat this point, I would imagine.
(15:19):
But, you know, we did the rightthing by partnering with tech,
you know, at least initially.
And so, you know, kind of the nextmove will, you know, need to be
somewhere in us, you know, leveragingdata and integrating it into tech
and just be, you know, arming theagents with the best information to
differentiate us from other agents.
(15:39):
And that that's what, if that's what KWis gonna, that is what they're gonna do.
But, um.
That, that's gonna be the, the thingthat we'll have to do to, to maintain,
you know, relevant as I think we'realready in a place where we provide the
best world class training of agents.
We've, we've taken that from them.
That used to be Keller Williams.
(16:00):
Used to be KW for sure.
Yeah.
I think we've taken that from them.
Um, the spot for that.
Um, and, and now it's, and at scale, Imean, it's the stuff we're doing, dude,
like, you know, I don't know how muchy'all, y'all, you guys weren't at the,
at that meeting we had last week, but.
Um, you, you saw the notes and listenedto it, but the, um, you know, the,
the, the team leader training thatthey're, that they're rolling out for
(16:22):
teams at k at, at, at exp is, is EOS.
Mm-hmm.
It's what we used to coach and trainevery single agent to for years.
Mm-hmm.
They're doing it every six weeks Forteams like that level of, uh, from a,
from a company, it's not being done.
And so that the fast cap program, likethe things that we're rolling out.
(16:43):
At scale for every agent to takeadvantage of in terms of the
odds of being successful or not.
It is world class.
Yeah.
Um,
and so I think, I think we have a,you know, a, a position there, you
know, and again, I think obviouslywe're, we're super profitable as it
relates to, you know, the overallcost structure of our, our business
model versus the legacy models.
(17:04):
And that gives us the ability to.
Bring on better people and, and run,run these business units and really,
you know, really execute at a high,super high level and very relevant.
And so that's, that's great.
You know, the, you know, that that nextpiece is gonna be competing on who has
the best data and information, which inthis day and age, the speed of things, you
know, that landscape changes every day.
(17:26):
And I think opportunity for usis gonna be, is gonna always, so
Jay, you, you think, so you, you
say it's data, I don't disagree.
Mm-hmm.
But.
Isn't it gonna be really a combination ofdata, the race for data and ai, who has
the most powerful ai um, in five years?
I don't know what our industry'sgonna look like in five years.
(17:47):
Mm-hmm.
It's not gonna look like what We likethis because AI's moving so fast.
What is it gonna replace?
What software is AI gonna replacewith all these, you know, all
these real estate brokeragesand, and their models, you know.
What, what we, and anybody that'scloud-based, that operates as one unit
not franchised out, has a huge advantage.
(18:09):
Mm-hmm.
Is, you know, those franchiseowners are only required to abide by
what's in the franchise agreement.
Beyond that, they can operate kind of.
Independently, you know, one expoffice, I'm sorry, one, one Keller
Williams office over here in Westlakedoes not operate the same one that
operates down there in Medina.
(18:30):
That doesn't operate.
They, they can make their own splits.
They can put a franchise, I'm, I'm sorry.
They can charge a transaction feeor not charge a transaction fee.
They can let their,it's all over the place.
There isn't a consistent model.
So how with, with AI growing at such arapid, I mean, I don't even, I can't even
imagine what it's gonna look like in five.
(18:51):
Yeah, they're,
they're gonna, I I, I wouldimagine they're gonna change that.
So, so, you know, it is, um.
And I don't know what, what, whatall they have the ability to do.
But Grock did point out thatthat that making changes to
the franchise agreements is, issomething that they would likely do.
Um, and so to me, like I, I just,we just recruited a KW agent.
(19:13):
Um, a hundred, a hundred plus transactionproducer and, you know, in a little town
of 6,000 in Texas with a 28,000 cap that'scrazy, like 28,000 plus the royalty.
So you're, you know, that, that'snot a competitive advantage.
You, you're gonna, you know, likeif you allow all your franchisees
to, to do whatever they want.
Um, you know, it, it, it's just,you know, it, it's, it's gonna be
(19:37):
difficult to compete when you're gonna,you have, well, these people over
here, we're losing agents over here.
Why?
Well, because they're, they'redoing, you know, $28,000 caps in a
market that it doesn't support that.
Yeah.
And so they, they're gonna haveto change that, I would think.
Um, which is gonna be, you know,there's no money in the franchise if
you're the franchise owner of KellerWilliams, unless you have 250 agents.
(19:58):
In that office, you're, you know, it'snot very profitable usually anyways.
It's not profitable.
That's what, you know, day jinxtold me years ago, but you know
that that's, that's gonna be,you know, that's gonna probably
upset the apple cart a little bit.
Some of these people, you know,might be looking to get out and,
and look to the, the new model.
I think there's a lot of disruptionthat can happen when they do make
those changes, because all they'retrying to do is make it profitable.
(20:20):
But, you know, the, the, that's,that's where all this money in
the model that we don't have.
You know, we don't, our, you know,there's no negotiating what our, our
cap 16 grand, our fees are the same.
You know, that's, um, it's adisadvantage that they're gonna
have in trying to fix that.
Yeah.
Hey, before we move on,every great business strategy
starts with one question.
What's really holding us back?
(20:42):
If you're not sure how to answerthat, take five minutes and complete
the growth score assessment.
It gives you insight into theeight areas that drive growth, and
we'll show you exactly where tofocus to increase revenue, improve
operations, and grow with confidence.
Go to my growth score.comand take the assessment now.
(21:03):
Now back to the show.
I, there, there's, um, a franchise.
There's a couple franchise KWfranchises here in my town.
One of 'em, um, you know, and they allowner groups, you know how that works.
Still put together, you know, maybe10 to 20 investors to open up a market
center, everyone kicks in, whatever.
(21:23):
Um, one of those owners.
Um, who's a great, great guy, um,owns, he's part owner of the franchise,
but he has his own office, so imagineall the money he's paying toward his
cap that's paying for the office, thelights, the coffee, all of those things.
Yet he has, he's leasing a completelydifferent office about a half a mile away.
(21:44):
Now, he was able to get away with that,I believe, because he is not putting
signage up or, or whatever, right.
There's another teamthat's trying to open up.
And they're getting, they,they, they won't let 'em.
So like we can literally,like if you're a team leader.
And you're listening to this andyou come to exp, you can open up an
office pretty much anywhere you want.
That's that the state of Ohio at least,or state of Texas, allows you to, sure.
(22:09):
You gotta go and do anapplication for a branch office
and it's approved every time.
Easy.
Now you're basically like this is, thisis like given the handles of the luggage
of an entrepreneurial real estate.
You know, prac practitionerthat wants to grow their team.
Sometimes they want their own placewhere they build their own culture.
Have police, you know, thetheir, I built an office.
(22:29):
You guys built an office.
Yeah.
You can't do that at Keller Williamsunless you get permission because there's
the franchise model, so you can't openanother office 5, 6, 7 miles down the
road because this person over here paidwhatever it is, 80 grand, whatever.
I don't know how much it costs fora franchise for Keller Williams,
but it blocks anyone else fromopening up a Keller Williams office.
(22:50):
Anywhere around there.
And, and that's, it's, that'shappening actually right now.
So I think the more we start seeingoffices being opened, you know, brick
and mortar offices by team leaders.
'cause they want their ownspace to grow their own culture,
have their own trainings,meetings, whatever, call nights.
And the competition just can't do itbecause the franchise doesn't allow it.
(23:13):
We're gonna start seeing some,uh, I think some more interest
in, in, in peaking on our model.
Yeah, yeah, for sure.
You know, one of the things thatkind of been thinking about just
in conversations over the last fewweeks as it kind of relates to your
question with ai, and like I said,I, I can't even imagine, um, I think.
We have to take into consideration who'sgonna make the play at the consumer
(23:36):
with buyers and sellers leveraging AI intheir home buying and selling process.
Um, you know, 'cause you got a lot ofagents right now who are just saying,
how can I use this to help my business?
Well, you got on the, theflip side of the coin.
You've got.
Consumers, buyers and sellers thatare using AI as well to help them
position their home, to be able tosell, to bring the most amount of money.
(23:56):
Buyers, how do I get into theideal home and the ideal market
and the ideal conditions.
So I think that has tobe taken into consum.
Some considerations.
I mean, imagine what, what,Zillow, or even if us, right?
If even if we flip the script to theconsumer to, you know, with, with ai, um.
To be able to help them in their, in theirbuying and selling process, because that's
(24:16):
where buyers and sellers are gonna go.
I mean, that's just,just human nature, right?
Behavior in where it's gonna trend.
So it's gonna be interesting to seehow that plays out and that factors
into, into the future as well.
Yes, sir.
Well, exciting times.
It is.
It is exciting times and we gotsome exciting things going on,
you know, here at exp as well.
You know, with, uh, that meeting.
(24:38):
I don't know if we're allowedto talk about that yet, Jay.
Yeah,
yeah.
You know, uh, yeah.
Uh, um, I think we probably.
We might want to give it a week or two.
Let her marinate.
You know, one thing though, and, andJane, you and I were talking about this
on Saturday, but um, you know, Cindy sentover kind of the value stack and I think,
um, I mean, shit, we've been here, what,seven years going on, eight years, and
(25:00):
there's so much that we don't even know.
That exp offers and I, I, I wouldchallenge all of you guys to really look
under the hood of what this company is.
The best way I like to say it, man, Ifeel, I feel like I'm going to a Chinese
buffet and it's just whatever I'm in themood for today is what I'm gonna get.
'cause that's what I wantand that's what I need.
(25:20):
And I feel like EXP has built that, likeyou said, with the team lead structure
that's teaching EOS and I don't evenknow what the investment is, but I can
promise you it's a fraction of what itwould cost to go get an EOS implementer
to implement EOS into your business.
Um, the fast cap program, like youlook at all of these, these things
that as, as teams trying to builda team, trying to build a business,
(25:42):
trying to build a company, you're like.
Damn man.
How do we install thedrive-through, right?
How do we get, how do we get takeout?
How do we get curb service?
Like, it's just, it's justlike, man, it's so heavy.
But yet, EXP is providing, theyhave the drive-through for you.
They have takeout, they havecurb service, they have all of
the things that you would need.
This was, this was a reallygood thought exercise.
(26:03):
I'm gonna share this with you.
And this, this came from Chaunceyoff of the expert mentors last week.
And, uh, Chauncey was like, listen,this is how I, I, I look at any business
venture and anything that I do, shegoes, I imagine myself standing.
At a blank box that is now my business.
And so when she started telling me this,'cause it made me go back to when we were
(26:26):
getting ready to take down the space nextto Texas Roadhouse in Lawton, Oklahoma.
And how we took in every detailinto consideration working with
Stacy, building out the plans.
We want this component.
What is it gonna look like from the curve?
What is it gonna, whatdoes the signage look like?
And that was just really importantunderstanding from, from the
way Chauncey broke it down.
(26:47):
She's like.
What do you see?
What's missing here?
Oh, you don't need asign, you have a signage.
Oh, you're walking up to the door.
What do you see?
What are your business hours?
Right?
Like all of those little details thatyou have to take into consideration,
and when you try to go do that onyour own, it is so heavy, so hard,
almost impossible, and it takes years.
(27:10):
Whereas I feel like what EXPsdone is that you can go and
install all of those components.
Right away.
They have everything there for you.
You want to bring on new agents?
Great.
Make 'em go through thefast cap program, right?
You're building a team.
Get into the team, lead production at afraction of the cost and the investment.
Install EOS into your business.
It's, it's just absolutely remarkable.
(27:31):
And then if you're in, if you havethe opportunity to play in the luxury
market, I think, I think exp luxuryis one of the best looks and feels of
any brokerage, any company out there.
It is so good.
The luxury stuff that EXP has is so good.
Yeah.
That it's, it's, it's really remarkableof what they've been able to do
just since we, since we've been hereover the last seven, eight years.
(27:52):
Well, you know, the, you know, the, um.
You know, and I geek out on this,I geek out on a lot of stuff, but I
geek out on operational efficiency.
I geek out on marketing.
Those are the two things I, I love.
You know, our operationalefficiency is incredible.
Like, you know, that, that is thebenefit, and this is probably the
most misunderstood, misunderstoodthing about exp like in Canada.
It takes sometimes a week,two weeks to get paid.
(28:13):
You get paid same day, like our sameday transaction close is 90% right now.
90% of transactions are, youknow, are settled and paid
within, um, within 24 hours.
And I think something like 66%of them are same day payment.
And so like the efficiencies thatare being, you know, like the
throttle that they're puttingon, how do we make it better?
How do we make it better?
(28:34):
How do we make it better?
You know, like, um, first level support.
So, you know, like if you ask aquestion, you know, in anywhere
in our ecosystem that you have aquestion, getting that answered at
a first level support is happening.
Reso, our resolution right now is 93%.
So 93% resolution, any problem,whatever it is, you have 63% of
that happens at first contact.
(28:54):
So.
I, I messed that up the other day.
'cause I had one that I was pushing backon and I was trying to go up the levels.
'cause I was like, there's no way I have,I had to, I had to set up my company
in Oklahoma to do business in Oklahoma.
It was easy to do.
I didn't realize how easy itwas, but I didn't wanna do it.
Um, and so, um, but you know, just like,you know, our NPS being 77, like I, you
know, we came from this world, right?
Like we understood NPS and measured it atevery area of the business that, you know,
(29:18):
the businesses that we were operating.
And we do that companywide, like every department.
I didn't realize that was that high.
77, bro.
Like that is unheard
of.
Listen guys.
Listen guys, like if you don'tlike at a company our size to
understand it's at 77 is remarkable.
If you guys don't understandwhat net promoter score is,
Google the ultimate question.
(29:38):
Go to Ultimate question 2.0.
Bain and Associates did the study backin what the nineties and it was what they
determined as to be the only truly um.
Uh, survey question that would determineif, if you would repeat or refer people to
do business with your, with your company.
And we're talking about applesof the world in the forties,
(29:59):
the fifties, like us to be 77.
They
say survey is considered goodbecause you take your, you know,
your detractors, which is onethrough seven, then you got passive.
Uh.
Seven and eight is passive.
Nine and 10 is is promoter.
And then you divide it.
So like a good score is in thethirties, like great is in the forties.
We're in the seventies.
Like to have agents happy.
(30:20):
Are you outta your mind?
Like it's crazy, like, you know, that's.
That, that really is a testamentto Leo and, and really pushing
on, uh, operational efficiencyand, and operational ex excellence
agent focused like that.
People don't know until they comeover and, you know, the statistic, 9.8
agents are coming back to EXP every day.
(30:42):
That's a lot.
But the number one reason that theycited is when you go back to a legacy
model and the way things are doneand the the, it would be like going
to Blockbuster and picking out avideo for, for you to watch tonight.
Like you're gonna do that when you'regonna be like, what the hell am I doing?
This is so slow.
Why don't I just watch it on Netflix?
Right?
Like it would never go back to that.
(31:02):
But that's what.
When agents come back, they'relike, I tried, you know, it sounded
really good, but I couldn't do it.
It's just too slow to
be, to be clear on what you said,Jay, it was nine point whatever
agents per day coming back thathad already been here, left.
Yep.
Grass was, they thoughtthe grass was greener.
Yep.
They went to another brokerage andthey, there's nine coming back a day.
A day.
(31:23):
Yep.
Yeah.
You know what I'm guessing those areproductive agents that are coming back.
Right.
I believe the ones thatare not coming back.
For the most part, not alwaysare the unproductive agents.
They're probably just hanging itup or they're going to where they
can find the cheapest, cheapestthing to hang their license or
whatever.
Yeah, I can't, yeah, the, youknow, the, uh, you know, we went
through all the attrition numbersand it's like, you know, 70, 80% of
(31:45):
the agents sold one home or less.
Like, it's the agents that come toproduce, they're not going anywhere.
And you know, you know, our onboardingright now, 94% onboarded within 24 hours.
Like that's.
That's hard to do.
That's hard to do.
That's
remarkable.
And I think it's a lot of the, alot of the agents that may be, they
may be left maybe for the grass orgreener or they left because of the,
the challenges and the strugglesthat we, we fought through, right?
(32:07):
Mm-hmm.
And here's the other thing.
Cindy and I, Cindy's on here.
Um, we were, Cindy had a, had a greatconversation with Cindy last week, um,
you know, kind of sharing the value stackfrom exp. So she, she, she shared that
over and just made me kind of open my eyesup to be like, what I don't know about,
and I know there's a lot of value there.
There's more that we don't even know.
She brought up a really importantthing, and this was, this was one of
(32:29):
my big, my big things and, and whatCindy and I were talking about is that.
You don't realize this until you haveyour own company and you're paying
your own insurance and you're payingyour own e and o, and she goes, the
thing that she's most thankful for,well, I mean 25 years at ERA, but.
The one thing that was just likea heavy lift off of, off of my
shoulders to where I didn't have toworry about anymore is thinking about
(32:52):
where the next lawsuit's coming from.
Mm-hmm.
And, and until you've been in that,in that role to where you have to pay
the insurance, you have to deal withevery dang complaint that comes in
and what, what she was raving about.
Another part of the value stackis the legal team at exp. Mm-hmm.
And they are world.
(33:13):
Class, and she shared story after storyafter story for her that were, you know,
the legal team at exp had helped her.
When you, when you do the amount ofbusiness like she does, and, and like a
lot of, a lot of the folks at exp it's,it's, you sleep better at night knowing
that you got good legal protection andlegal, legal, uh, structure behind.
A
hundred percent.
(33:34):
Yeah, that's, you know, the, the, youknow, I wanna make a point here too,
you know, they went through, they gaveus the numbers of, of where agents
had, where their, the majority agentsare coming from, which is Keller
Williams re Max, and Coldwell Banker.
And, and I wanna make this point,the, the agents that we, that we lost
majority last, the last, last yearwas real Keller Williams Epic, LPT.
(33:57):
You know, then, and then whoknows, wherever they to a job
is where most of them went to.
But the ones that, thattook the most from it.
So we took on this onslaught ofcompetition that we had never
taken selling on our story.
Hey, you come over here, you'regonna be the next Brent Dove.
It's gonna be great.
And that's, that's what, that'swhat they were selling on.
We survived that.
It was, that was, that was somethingwe had never experienced before.
(34:19):
The last two years we experienced it.
Those agents are all gonnacome back, by the way.
Spoiler.
I'm not gonna tell.
I we can't give you what we, I don't evenknow if we can say it yet, but I'm gonna
tell you right now, what's gonna happen in2025 is we are crippling the competition.
We are cri and it, it's, it's themost strategic move I've seen the
company make since I've been here.
(34:39):
I'm more excited now than I'vebeen since I first joined exp. What
they're about to roll out, markmy words, is going to destroy our
competitors in, in the, in the, um.
And in the cloud-based space, likeour, our actual, I don't even, I don't
even consider 'em competitors anymore.
It's that big of a deal.
Yeah.
And so, like, y y'all have no idea.
(35:00):
If you wanna reach out to me ona side note, I'll talk to you.
But like, I'm the people that are getcatching wind to what's coming are like,
this is not really happening, is, isreally happening, like they're doing it.
But I think what I think'sgonna happen, Jay, is, is, is
everyone's gonna follow and copy.
Because they can't Of course.
But
let me, let me make a, let memake a really important point.
So when we were at 20,000 agentsand, you know, from 12 to 20 to
(35:23):
40 and, and you know, then 60, 80.
It was like trying to keep thewheels between the ditches.
Like it was not easy.
There was problems.
There was, there were people in, inkey roles that were not the right
people that we had to top grade from.
What, what, what were you saying?
The agent count between what I'm justsaying, like from like even going
(35:44):
from like 12 to 20 and then 20 to 40,like that whole space of like, what
got you here won't get you there.
And yeah.
Seeing how I, you know, just onthe sidelines watching like, all
right, we got 2000 employees.
This is a problem over here.
This broker is a problem.
We gotta fix this.
Next thing you know, it's fixed.
And you know, that was fascinating to me.
And what I see happeningwith our competition is.
(36:06):
They're operating on a fractionof the dollars that we operate on.
We got a 16 cap, you know, 12,000cap at one of our competitors.
The, they're operating on less dollars.
They can't go solve problemslike that as quickly.
They can't, they don'thave the money to do it.
So you gotta, now you're an agent overthere and the sky's falling, which
is what's gonna feel like for thesecompanies in in, in about a month.
(36:26):
They're, they're not gonna be ableto take action to solve that problem.
This is tremendous amount of turmoil and,and already probably prob they don't have
enough money to go solve all the problemsthat need to be solved in order to operate
efficiently while we're at scale and,and we're, you know, just adding more,
adding more, adding more, adding morevalue, value, value to the value prop.
(36:47):
Going back to how you started this,you know, this whole podcast, John,
we, you know, we're just addingmore value, more value, more value.
They can't even solve problems at a pace.
And then top grade talent fast enoughto keep up with, with managing growth.
So they gotta slow down growth.
'cause growth sucks cash.
So it's fascinating.
It's gonna be interesting to see.
I used to think that we would have,it would be like a Google, it would be
(37:07):
like a Google Yahoo thing, you know?
And you know, competitor.
Go ahead.
No, I was gonna say it's gonnabe, it's, I think it's gonna be
really interesting looking back andbeing able to see a couple things.
One, that this, this kind of, uh, wherewe've kind of held with growth for the
last 18, 24 months, I think we're gonnalook back at it at as, at a blessing.
(37:31):
Oh, for sure.
And,
and, and the reason is,is that when you look at.
The, the, the lessons of,of as we were going so fast.
So I just wanna, I wanna share thiswith everybody and this was, this was
a very important get from one of the,one of our crucial mentors, clay Mask.
And what Clay said is ones and threes.
Because what happens is that when youlook at, and, and this is how we operate,
(37:53):
you guys, if you're not operating thisway, you've gotta think through this.
And through the theory of constraints,it's always, you know, the what,
the how, the who, and when.
When you've got a great what,and you got a great how, then
the constraint is always talent.
It's always who's, and so the lessonthat Clay was telling us is that
you're gonna outgrow your people.
(38:14):
And when you grow fast through onesand threes, and basically what he's
saying is the people that can get youto, to 3 million, they're probably
not gonna get you to 10 millionwhen they can get you to 10 million.
They're not gonna get you to 30 million.
30 million's.
Not gonna get you to a hundred ahundred's, not gonna get you to 300.
Yep.
And, and you, you know,you're gonna outgrow people.
What was happening is we were growingso fast, we were outgrowing people.
(38:35):
Exactly.
And, and so once, once the, the we, westagnated on growth, it gave us a chance.
To breathe for a second, get all of ourshit together, get all of our right,
who's in place to make that next jump.
And and that's what,that's what's happening.
That's what we're seeing exactly happened.
We got the right people.
So that's, to me, when I see whathappened, that was the lesson.
We're gonna look back and we're be like,thank God we got to breathe for a second.
(38:58):
And, and we got everything in place.
Yeah.
So, good.
John.
Good stuff.
Yeah.
The, the, the, you're right.
Which is, which kind of leads into whythe hire with Leo being tagged as CEO,
couldn't have come at a better time.
It was necessary.
Like when you think about 2024 worst,you're in real estate sales since 95, and
(39:19):
let's just sandwich an NAR lawsuit on, youknow, the settlement on top of all that.
We had the best leader that we could havepossibly at the right time, four time.
And what's cool too, he wasn't new tothe company 'cause he was still, you
know, he was, he was already in a,you know, I dunno if it was C-level,
but yeah, probably C level leadership.
And so he already knewthe pulse of the company.
(39:41):
He already knew how to work with Glen.
Well, all those things, you know,bringing someone from the outside
would not have been a great move.
Man, we got lucky with Leo.
Yeah.
Do you know, do you know?
And, and this was one of my favoritetakes going through, listening to, um, you
know, the Trumps and the Elon's leavingup to, I mean, on, on the podcast circuit.
And Eric, Eric Trump was on, uh, thePBD podcast, um, after, after his dad
(40:06):
was on, before, before the election.
And he really broke down theentire Trump organization.
And, and you guys listen in.
I, I mean, I don't, I don't, Idon't care what you think, what,
what you believe, what side you'reon or not, but here's the lesson.
He goes, we've had people thathave been with our, with our
organization for 40 years.
When I hear that, I go, leadership isthe number one thing, and they believe
(40:27):
in loyalty and they promote from within.
He goes, he goes.
One of my favorite things is to takesomebody that started out as a busboy.
Now they're managing one of our, oneof our hotels, one of our signature
hotels, and they started out as a busboy.
He goes, that gives us the mostfulfillment and when you can hire and
grow from within and make those movesinstead of bringing from the outside.
(40:51):
You win.
I mean, you just, you, youjust got such a deep bench.
And, and I think no matter what happensto, to our point with, with ai, the
disruptions, what's gonna happen inthe next four or 5, 10, 20 years?
Leadership will always be leading the way.
Yeah.
And when you've got the rightleadership in the right people.
You have a set of guidinglights and core values.
'cause you, what you, what you weretalking about was with the core values.
(41:13):
Yep.
I default back to the decisionthat's about to roll out, guys.
Like, listen, this company does notmake decisions unless they run 'em
through the filters of the core values.
Yep.
Agile.
And we do things that make thecompany even more sustainable.
Gotta be better for the eight.
Yep.
Yeah.
And dude, dude, yeah.
And, you know, let, and let's go.
You know, this, this,this thing that's coming.
Like I never, I, I didn't see it.
(41:35):
I did not see this move.
I didn't see it.
And that's, it's a testament toGlen at the helm, like when you
got a true visionary at the helmthat can sit back and be like,
Hmm, how can we make this better?
What's, what are all, you know,what are all the secondary impacts
of making a certain decisionand be like, that's not good.
That's, that's not gonna serve anyone.
Well, let's not do it thisway, let's do it this way.
(41:57):
And like, so I'm, I'm super pumped that.
You know that we have the rightvisionary, um, founder with a vision
that's focused on agent, that'sobsessed with what's best for the agent.
And then operationally having theright CEO, that's of absolute dog.
Wartime, wartime, CEO, wartime executionfocused, maniacal about it, dude.
(42:21):
All in.
I love it, man.
It's, and
I think his background, man, I think, Ithink we're seeing, it's so fun to watch.
It is fun to watch.
I think.
I think his, his experience andhis background in the REO space,
um, where you have to be wartime.
Playing that game.
Yeah.
Um, you know, kind of lended into, youknow, kind of his, his philosophy and
skillset, navigating the waters ahead.
(42:41):
And for you guys that don't know, Imean, we're talking about war time
and peace time generals and leaders.
Um, you know, when, when you're, whenyou're into a headwind, you gotta
have, you gotta have a war time.
Um, in a tailwind like what wesaw, 20, 21, 22, you can be a
peacetime general and be, you know.
Kumbaya lovey-dovey and lessaccountability sliding through
the cracks a little bit.
But when you're into aheadwind, details matter.
(43:03):
Accountability, executionis, is everything.
I mean, going back to, we started theconversation out with Gary Keller.
He's a wartime CEO.
Yeah, he's, he's strapped on.
Yes, he is.
He's strapped on, you know,the grenades and everything.
More than one war that that man's fought.
Yes, he has.
Yeah.
Just mad respect for him.
Yeah.
And Dave Line, you know, likeLiger started re max in 1973.
(43:25):
That was the year I was born.
Him and Gail, manbattles, federal battles.
Everyone trying to keep that's,
those were the OGs of the industry.
Man.
They rolled out.
Yeah.
And they took all the arrows andthey were like, oh yeah, we doing it
this way.
If it wasn't really for those two guys,I don't even know, you know, if exp would
really exist or real or any of these.
(43:46):
Because they paved the way.
Trust me.
Yeah.
They tried ke they tried everything.
When I say they, I'm talking aboutthe old legacy models right now.
Now we're we're saying that potentiallythey're a legacy model, right?
Right.
But the old legacy models did everything.
They conspired to keep them out ofthe market and, and did everything.
When you talk about arrows.
(44:07):
Dave Lineer when he had really long hair.
The reason, I don't know if everybodyknows this, but he had a ponytail.
The reason is 'cause he swore he wouldnot cut his hair until he won the
federal trial against re realty oneand Smy Kramer here in Cleveland, Ohio.
He was in federal courtbattling it out and he won.
And, uh, talk about a strategist, right?
(44:27):
Kind of reminds me a little bitof, of, of Trump and how he's
negotiating these big things, right?
Like Dave went in.
Rented out every hotel room in theclosest hotel room to the federal court
building so that the other legal teamcould not stay there for this long trial.
They had to stay milesaway and it was cold.
You know, like just these, I love it.
(44:48):
Rules, right?
Like that's, I'll be honest with you, thatis exactly why I joined REM Max in 20.
I think it was 2007 was because I'm like,I'm following that dude into fucking Adam.
That's the guy I'm followingDave, because, you know,
so, um, yeah, we'll see.
We'll, you know, it's fun to watchall this and see, but, um, they
definitely took it and, um, I'mjust, I'm just excited about.
(45:12):
I'm excited to see this announcementin about 30, 30 days or so.
Um, it's gonna change the game.
I do believe it's actually just likeother companies when they came along
and, and gave us some competition andstarted making us improve our model.
Yeah.
All this is gonna do.
It's gonna, it's gonna force.
It's, it's a chess move.
They, I don't know that theycan't not like follow suit with it
(45:34):
because it's fricking brilliant.
And if they stay, I hope they do.
Because it's gonna makeit a lot easier for us,
I guess.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Fellows.
Amazing conversation.
Um, really, truly what the whole OneBig Fire, um, conversation podcast
really embodies and all about.
And, you know, uh, appreciateyou guys tuning into us.
Lock it in.
(45:54):
I mean, we come live, you know.
12, 12 15 Eastern every Tuesday.
So lock that in.
And, uh, love to, love to seeyou guys continue to join us.
Um, you know, push and promote the show.
Uh, we typically have a guest inwith us, uh, but we had the, the
opportunity, the three of us get to.
Chop it up today, which is always fun.
Um, I know we've got some guests,uh, some rock stars lined up in
(46:17):
the coming weeks, so lock this intoyour calendar, set a reminder and,
uh, make sure to stay tuned in.
Also
for no other reason to see, youknow, uh, Jay's jersey collection
continue to grow every podcast we do.
It's pretty
epic.
It's gotten a little outta control here.
Pretty epic.
My wife's like, what?
She's like, I love you.
(46:37):
You redneck.
I was like, what?
And she's like, you got these,like, at least get better hangers.
I was like, I'm not Discip.
Display these for anybody else.
This is for me.
I don't know, podcast.
This is, they're all over,they're all over the place.
I'm about to get 'em all framed then.
I don't know what I'm gonna do with them.
Oh, pretty, pretty freaking epic.
All right guys.
Check out honey vaccination.com.
Any anything that you needfor us, uh, we're there.
(46:59):
It's the number one go-toresource for everything that we
do around the Honey Badger Nation.
Honey badger nation.comand, uh, hit us up.
We'll see you guys next time.
Appreciate you later.
Thanks for tuning in.
If you're done guessing and ready tolead like a real CEO with a custom
strategy, real accountability andproven systems, check out my executive
(47:21):
one-on-one coaching@johnkitchens.coach.
Fill out the application and bookyour one-on-one call with me.
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My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
My Favorite Murder is a true crime comedy podcast hosted by Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark. Each week, Karen and Georgia share compelling true crimes and hometown stories from friends and listeners. Since MFM launched in January of 2016, Karen and Georgia have shared their lifelong interest in true crime and have covered stories of infamous serial killers like the Night Stalker, mysterious cold cases, captivating cults, incredible survivor stories and important events from history like the Tulsa race massacre of 1921. My Favorite Murder is part of the Exactly Right podcast network that provides a platform for bold, creative voices to bring to life provocative, entertaining and relatable stories for audiences everywhere. The Exactly Right roster of podcasts covers a variety of topics including historic true crime, comedic interviews and news, science, pop culture and more. Podcasts on the network include Buried Bones with Kate Winkler Dawson and Paul Holes, That's Messed Up: An SVU Podcast, This Podcast Will Kill You, Bananas and more.
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Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com