What if no one is coming to save you…because the one you’ve been waiting for is you?
In this episode of the Plenty Podcast, I sit down with one of my dearest friends, Wall Street Journal bestselling author Meggan Watterson, whose new book The Girl Who Baptized Herself has cracked my heart wide open. This conversation is a soul homecoming—one that explores the raw, real journey of reclaiming our worth, rewriting our spiritual stories, and becoming the version of ourselves we’ve always been, but perhaps were never given permission to fully be.
We talk about:
- ✨ The moment Meggan chose herself and stopped settling for crumbs
- 🕊️ The sacred story of Thecla—the girl who baptized herself—and why it matters more than ever today
- 🍷 What getting “sober sober” really means (and how it was never about the wine)
- 💔 How trauma shapes our self-worth and why healing means going all the way in and all the way through
- 🌹 Why coming home to your body is the most radical spiritual act of all
This episode is for anyone who has felt stuck in a story that doesn’t fit, who’s been waiting for external validation or permission, or who simply knows there’s more—but isn’t sure how to get there.
If you’ve ever questioned your worth, longed for a deeper connection with the divine (especially in a female body), or needed a reminder that coming home to yourself is the most sacred journey of all—this conversation is for you.
Listen in and be reminded: you already are the one you’ve been waiting for.
With so much love,
Kate
🎧 Listen now and be sure to get your copy of Meggan’s powerful new book, The Girl Who Baptized Herself.
“No one is coming to save us—except the one we become by saving ourselves.” –Meggan Watterson
🎤 Let’s Dive into the Good Stuff on Plenty 🎤
00:24 Megan Watterson's Journey and New Book
03:18 The Story of Meeting and Collaboration
04:51 Reclaiming Authority and Identity
09:27 The Role of Women in Spiritual Narratives
11:45 The Gnostic Gospels and Their Significance
15:18 Patriarchy and the Editing of Scriptures
18:26 Personal Reflections on Self-Worth
23:06 Going Inward and Finding Strength
30:56 The Challenge of Reclaiming Worthiness
37:21 The Nuances of Sobriety
44:11 The Journey of Healing and Transformation
54:14 The Alignment of Timing and Purpose
57:36 Conclusion and Reflections on Worth
Links and Resources:
Connect with Meggan Watterson:
✨ The Money Reset: Feel Good with Money—No Matter How Much You Make
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💡 Break the ‘money in, money out’ cycle and create lasting stability.
🎯 Relax into a new relationship with money—where structure meets flow.
✨ Use the 5-Minute Calm Cashflow Ritual to bring instant clarity to your finances.
More money won’t solve money stress—a resourced, supple nervous system will. Ready to shift? 👉 Get The Money Reset Now! 👈
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Meggan Watterson (00:00):
I didn't need to use language anymore. They
(00:02):
knew from the look on my facethat there was no mirror needed.
And what was so powerful in thatmoment was that I could feel and
I knew everything. Like I kneweverything I needed to know and
I really owned it.
Kate Northrup (00:16):
One of my best friends in the world is on the
podcast today. I have beentrying to get her in this
freaking studio for years. Andthough she lives in the same
state as me, it is hard to getthis woman out of her house. Her
name is Megan Waterson. She isthe Wall Street Journal
bestselling author of MaryMagdalene Revealed, and her
(00:37):
brand new book, The Girl WhoBaptized Herself, is out today.
I am so proud of Megan and thefive years that she devoted of
her life to this particularscripture, this particular
story, and the relevancy it hasfor humans, particularly women
today. And in this conversation,we went everywhere from Meg's
(01:02):
story of getting sober sober tomy story of how this book about
a girl who baptized herselfreally helped me to unhook from
some really sneaky ways in mylife that I was still waiting
for permission, still waiting tobe chosen. So if there's any
(01:22):
part of you that is waiting tohave what you want, settling for
crumbs, going back over and overand over again to situations or
people that you know are justnot it, this conversation is for
you. Meg is not only trainedfrom Harvard and Columbia in
(01:45):
divinity and theology, she'shysterical and one of the most
human, real people you will evermeet as well as one of the most
brilliant. So enjoy the episode.
Welcome to Plenty. I'm your hostKate Northrup and together we
are going on a journey to helpyou have an incredible
(02:08):
relationship with money, time,and energy. And to have
abundance on every possiblelevel. Every week, we're gonna
dive in with experts andinsights to help you unlock a
life of plenty. Let's go fillour cups.
Speaker 3 (02:28):
Please note that the opinions and perspectives of the
guests on the Plenty podcast arenot necessarily reflective of
the opinions and perspectives ofKate Northrop or anyone who
works within the Kate Northropbrand.
Meggan Watterson (02:40):
Say hi. I love you.
Kate Northrup (02:41):
I love you too. Thanks for being here. Lady.
Okay. Yeah.
Wow. So you already crying?
Meggan Watterson (02:48):
I'm already crying.
Kate Northrup (02:52):
I just saw that. Okay, so for context.
Meggan Watterson (02:56):
Yeah.
Kate Northrup (02:56):
Today I actually I am gonna cry. I'm gonna cry
right now. I wanna talk becauseso many people talk about
meeting friends as a grown up.
Meggan Watterson (03:07):
Yeah.
Kate Northrup (03:08):
And that that can be a challenge, and it has not
been a challenge for me, but Iwanted to share the story of how
we met, and a little bit aboutthe weaving, just for context of
our conversation, but alsobecause I really like the story,
and just about how our peopleare out there, and if we remain
(03:31):
plugged in to the signal, it'sreally obvious.
Meggan Watterson (03:34):
So
Kate Northrup (03:36):
I know that you remember how we met, but we met,
I was in New York, and you werein New York, and this woman I
had known because she had workedwith my mom years before Gail
Straub, who used to run theempowerment workshops, which is
where my mom met Ned Leavitt,became her agent, whatever, she,
I don't remember why, but shesaid to me, I know this woman,
(03:58):
Megan Waterson, and I think youshould meet her. She's doing
this conference, you should go.And then after, it was your very
first reveal. Yep. What year wasthat?
Meggan Watterson (04:09):
2011, I think. No, '20 It would have been 2010.
No, twenty o nine. Think it waso nine. Shay was still because
Shay was A baby.
He was like nine months old.
Kate Northrup (04:21):
And when what year was he born? February?
Meggan Watterson (04:23):
02/2009.
Kate Northrup (04:24):
And you just you gave birth to your first baby,
and you did Reveal Yeah. Thesame year?
Meggan Watterson (04:29):
Same year.
Kate Northrup (04:29):
What is that do you think?
Meggan Watterson (04:30):
I
Kate Northrup (04:31):
know so many women who do really big things
in their career the year theyhave a child.
Meggan Watterson (04:36):
What was that about for you? I think it's
interesting, but I recently washaving this conversation with
someone online that there's sofew rituals to mark the way that
we really die when we givebirth. Like, we are not the
person we were at all. Like, wecan't even refer back to that
(04:57):
person. There is an actual deathand rebirth, and that we need
more of that language, the wordsto really describe what that was
like.
Like I can literally pinpointthe moment. It was when the
doulas wanted to bring themirror to look at my vagina, and
(05:17):
I was like, I didn't need to uselanguage anymore. They knew from
the look on my face that therewas no mirror needed. And what
was so powerful in that momentwas that I could feel and I knew
everything. Like, I kneweverything I needed to know, and
I really owned it.
There was a sense of authority Ireclaimed or claimed in that
(05:39):
moment where that was the end ofthe former self, and I began
again in that moment becausethere was no reference. Like a
mirror is a reflection. It's areference. It's a distraction
though. It's a once removed.
And in that moment it was like,no. I know exactly where he is.
I know exactly how I'm doing,and I know what I'm doing. They
(06:02):
wanted me to not scream asloudly, like, to sort of rein in
some energy, which I dounderstand why that's but I was
at a point of there's no comingback from where I was, you know?
I was ardently and veryenthusiastically calling for
Christ
Kate Northrup (06:19):
every time I pushed. Yeah.
Meggan Watterson (06:20):
And I was screaming at the top of my
lungs. I mean, and I knew, Iknew physically that's what I
needed to do to get And him outof this so it didn't matter what
was happening outside of me. Iknew, as in directly from within
me, what I needed to do. Andthat's when the old me died and
(06:42):
a new and maybe that's theinitiation into motherhood. But
for me, how is this related towhat you asked?
Kate Northrup (06:52):
Well, this is so perfect. It's just the perfect
place to begin. I mean What wasthe question you would ask me?
Meggan Watterson (07:00):
I asked you.
Kate Northrup (07:01):
I have no idea. I asked you, what was it for you
about giving birth to Shay inthe same
Meggan Watterson (07:10):
year
Kate Northrup (07:10):
and giving birth to Reveal?
Meggan Watterson (07:12):
Okay, so the last sort of tether that I want
to say to that is that I don'tthink it was an accident that I
didn't publish until after hewas born. Yeah. Because there's
a level of self doubt then.Yeah. I still struggle with it
(07:32):
to this day as a writer, but itfundamentally shifted because
you go through that actualdeath.
Like I really feel like I felt adeath. And I understood
physically both how infinite weare, but also that the infinite
(07:52):
is terrifying because we onlyget to be in this physical body.
Kate Northrup (07:56):
Which is quite finite.
Meggan Watterson (07:58):
It's so finite. So brief. I mean it's
just insane how brief it is. Soto feel that and to know that
physically in that moment, itallowed me to have, like, this
tool, you know, this to use thatfeeling as a touchstone when I
would start to doubt myself as awriter. And I think for me
(08:21):
though, it was also that Ineeded community in order to
write.
So I love that with my story,There was reveal first, where I
was calling it
Kate Northrup (08:31):
Right, all was of a community first.
Meggan Watterson (08:33):
It was a community first. I didn't
publish until After.
Kate Northrup (08:36):
I mean it was amazing. So I show up there
because Gail told me to go, andGail was like, I think you
should be friends with Megan,and then we she introduced us,
and I had just offered randomly.I was like, hey, you just did a
really big thing. Literally, Idid not know you. You're a brand
new mom, you know, but I waslike, if you wanna hop on Skype
(08:57):
just for a digestion of this bigthing that you just did, I'd be
happy to be that person for you.
And then we Skyped, which wasthat's how long ago, because who
even what even is that? WeSkyped you when you were in
Cleveland with Baby Sheavisiting your mom that summer.
Meggan Watterson (09:15):
Yeah.
Kate Northrup (09:15):
And then that was that.
Meggan Watterson (09:17):
That was it.
Kate Northrup (09:18):
That was it. It was love at first sight. It was
love at first sight. And you hadcreated this incredible
community first, which you hadcreated Red Ladies before that.
Right.
But Reveal was on a much biggerscale.
Meggan Watterson (09:31):
Right. Because my apartment was getting too
small to hold the Red Ladies,and also I wanted to make a
louder call, you know, to tothrow the net out wider for all
different forms of religions andspiritualities so so that the
voices of the women that werecoming together I wanted to
(09:54):
understand, okay, how do we nameand describe the divine? How do
we name and experience anddescribe mystical experiences?
Like, what what is ultimate forus? Like, what is really sacred?
Right? Because what's alwaysfascinated me the most is I have
equal rage and excitement aboutso many things that have to do
(10:16):
with religion. And one of thethings when I was in seminary
was just the realization of theway that all of these practices
have been fundamentallystructured by men and described
by men and from the maleexperience. So to me, there's so
(10:39):
much excitement in thinkingabout creating that that void.
Like, there hasn't been thatsame expression, that that same
amount of container for a femalebody and what it means to to
encounter the divine in thefemale experience.
And so it it excited me becauseit was sort of like, you know,
(11:04):
the monk's experience is reallylike a typical Tuesday for any
woman. I love this word,
Kate Northrup (11:12):
yeah.
Meggan Watterson (11:12):
Yeah. I mean it's it's like emotional
support, emphasis on self denialand Like emotional repression.
Kate Northrup (11:20):
Yeah. Really.
Meggan Watterson (11:21):
And and really the silence, the quiet, all of
those spiritual norms that weassociate with spirituality, I I
loved being able to question isthat really spiritual for me,
for my experience, when that'salready expected of me in
culture because I'm female. Sowhat does it mean for me to be
(11:44):
spiritual? Maybe it means, youknow, saying the thing that's
never been said before. Maybethat's so much more spiritual.
Maybe it's just something thatwe haven't quite put words to
yet.
Kate Northrup (11:58):
And that we each get to explore for ourselves. As
someone like you who isliterally trained in theology
the way Sorry,
Meggan Watterson (12:11):
in theology.
Kate Northrup (12:17):
Like you went to the school to learn the way it
Uh-huh, went to and then whileyou were there, I believe,
although maybe it happenedbefore, you discovered the this
is not the correct word, whatI'm about to say, but what I
wanna say is the lost gospels.What are they actually called?
Meggan Watterson (12:35):
Well, so typically, when I was at
seminary and divinity school,they were referred to as the
Gnostic Gospels. Thank you. Yes.And that's both that's been
helpful and also problematic.
Kate Northrup (12:49):
Okay.
Meggan Watterson (12:50):
The the way that it's helpful is that it it
allows us to group themtogether. They're all the
scriptures that were notcodified in the New Testament in
the fourth century, and there'sa reason for that. One is that
they focused on gnosticism orthe word gnosis in Greek, which
(13:11):
means direct knowing. Yeah. Sowhich I love.
And they all that's that's sortof a red thread that runs
through them. And also theyinclude so many of the stories
of women, like the Gospel ofMary and the Acts of Fall and
Thecla, which is what this nextbook is about. So they were not
included, but there were a wholebunch of rebel monks. You know,
(13:34):
somebody refused to get rid ofthem and they buried them in
urns in the Egyptian Desert. Andsome were found at Nag Hammadi,
the Gospel of Mary was not, itwas found, along the Nile.
So they're grouped together, butthe problematic part about them
is that they get misunderstoodas being a separate religion or
(13:57):
a separate separate cult orspirituality. They are actual
evidence of the root system ofthe Christ movement, of the form
of Christianity that existedbefore the fourth century.
Kate Northrup (14:11):
And in the fourth century, to catch anybody up who
is not aware of how the KingJames Bible as we understand it
came to be Right. Can you justlet us know what was that actual
history and what was actuallygoing on there and what was the
point of the Bible at that time?So Or that So version of the
Meggan Watterson (14:30):
Emperor Constantine wanted to make
Christianity the empire'sreligion. And what's very
significant is that up untilthat point, there's like
hundreds of years, right, afterChrist's crucifixion before
Christianity began. And duringthat time period, if you were
Christian, you were killed. Sothat's how seditious it was to
(14:53):
be Christian because if you wereChristian, you were essentially
challenging all the powerstructures of the Roman Empire.
You're saying the the love, thepower that exists within me
exists within you too, whetheryou're male or female.
And if you were male and female,that was a whole very different
reality for you. Yeah. Femaleshad you couldn't vote, you
(15:17):
couldn't run for public office,they had next to no rights. So a
female was considered less than,literally was not a whole human
being, was not a whole only themale body was the full human
being. And what's so powerfulabout the Gospel of Mary is this
constant repetition of thatChrist had called us to be true
(15:38):
human beings.
So all of us, male and female.So the emphasis then is on what
exists within us that can't beseen in this physical form, but
that is renders us all equal.And that was the part that kind
of pissed Constantine off anddidn't work with the idea of
(16:01):
making Christianity becomepatriarchal. Right? If you have
all this evidence of women beingin, you know, girls baptizing
themselves and women being inthe most prominent positions of
power like Mary Magdalene, thenthat's not gonna work to have
Christianity become the empire'sreligion.
Kate Northrup (16:23):
Right.
Meggan Watterson (16:24):
So really what was happening during that
process was editing out thescriptures that told that story
about Christ and including thescriptures that really told what
scholar Karen King refers to asthe master story. And it's this
idea that it is a male,exclusively male succession of
(16:50):
authority, spiritual authoritycoming down from Christ, and
that it's only males. And sothat was established at that
time. Really what happened wasthe patriarchy became deified.
Got
Kate Northrup (17:02):
it. Yeah. And that was very much on purpose.
And so this idea that we canrefer to the Bible, which is the
King James version that we seein any hotel room, whatever,
along with the Book of Mormon,that that is some sort of end
(17:23):
all, be all, as though it waswritten by God
Meggan Watterson (17:26):
Right.
Kate Northrup (17:27):
Him him, her, themselves Right. Is not
actually historically accurate.Right. And this is not something
that I found out, and it's thisRight.
Meggan Watterson (17:39):
One's ever This is It was
Kate Northrup (17:41):
common knowledge. Everybody. Everybody who goes
through
Meggan Watterson (17:44):
any kind of even small amount of Totally. I
mean, history or or studyingtheology, but or a religion
course. Yeah. I mean, anyone canlearn this. This is very
accessible.
I think what's hard
Kate Northrup (17:57):
It's it's accessible, but, like, there's a
lot of Amnesia
Meggan Watterson (18:01):
about Exactly. Exactly. There really is.
There's this intractabilityaround the idea that actually,
maybe the Christianity beforeConstantine got his hands on it
was far more radical thananything we have ever
Kate Northrup (18:19):
Okay. So you gave me the girl.
Meggan Watterson (18:25):
Yes.
Kate Northrup (18:26):
Your brand new book. Yes. The Girl Who Baptized
Herself at the time ofpublication of this episode. It
is out today, And pub I wasgoing through my own thing about
needing to choose myself, and Iassume I'm like, whatever, I've
been at this for a long time,like, I don't have self worth
(18:48):
issues, I don't know who to puta I mean, I'm very humble, like,
you know I'm always working onmy shit. Yeah.
But I wasn't aware of some sortof gaping wound where I really
needed some kind of empoweringfemale story. I'm lying in bed
reading this book, and I waslike,
Meggan Watterson (19:06):
it was
Kate Northrup (19:06):
like, bomb to my soul. And so I'm happy to share
more about that, but I want toknow, do you remember the moment
when you knew you needed to tellher story in a bigger way? And
how did you know this was yournext book?
Meggan Watterson (19:28):
Two moments. The first was when I first ever
heard of this story when I wasin seminary.
Kate Northrup (19:34):
Okay. So this has been a long time coming.
Meggan Watterson (19:36):
Yeah. And I mean, a girl who baptized
herself, a girl who's constantlyhaving to save herself, because
that's another thread. Like,literally, she physically has to
save herself. She spirituallyhas to save herself. I was like,
there cannot be a more relevantmessage.
Like No.
Kate Northrup (19:54):
We can't wait for
Meggan Watterson (19:56):
anyone to save us. Like, we have to save
ourselves, but we're not toldthat ever.
Kate Northrup (20:01):
You said is demonstrating for us that no one
is coming to save us, no oneexcept the one we become by
saving ourselves.
Meggan Watterson (20:08):
So good. And and I just I was again, it's
that those two moments, I'malways existing on the extremes,
which touch each other. Right?So that works out.
Kate Northrup (20:21):
But, like A big old horseshoe.
Meggan Watterson (20:22):
So so irate and angry that I'm I'd never
heard of her. Like, how was itpossible? Everybody's heard of
Paul. Like, everybody's heardwell, okay. Maybe not everybody,
but most people know of Paul theapostle a little bit.
You know? A little bit. A littlebit. But no one has heard of
like, even the most devout, Ireally struggle to there are so
(20:47):
few people who have heard aboutThekla, and yet she ministered
right alongside him. So it's thethe anger about that erasure,
the anger about, you know, thatas a girl, I didn't get to have
this example, this model.
I didn't I didn't have this. Ididn't have this road map to
reclaiming my worth within aspiritual context. But then,
(21:09):
it's also the excitement. Like,how Okay, so it was saved.
Somebody saved it.
Someone buried it. And we haveit. And just also the trust in
the timing. So there was thatmoment when I first encountered
it, I absolutely knew my lifewas about bringing these voices
(21:33):
that literally had been buried,like actually buried in the
sand, to bring these buriedvoices to the present moment.
But then in 2020 was whenbecause the world was standing
still, right, and I was goinginward in a way that I mean, of
(21:57):
course, you know for me that'smy favorite pilgrimage.
My favorite form of travel isgoing inward. And all of my book
tour for Mary Magdalene Revealedwas canceled.
Kate Northrup (22:09):
Because the pub date of Mary Magdalene Revealed
was
Meggan Watterson (22:12):
Was 2019. Was at the end of twenty nineteen.
Kate Northrup (22:15):
Yeah. Okay. That was a bit of a wash. Right.
Meggan Watterson (22:18):
2019. And so we just all everything that I
had planned for this spring andthis summer, everything was
canceled. Yeah. Which, you know,there was quiet celebration in
me around that. I'm okay withwith that.
If you
Kate Northrup (22:31):
don't know Megan, she does not like to get on
airplanes or really leave homefor really any reason.
Meggan Watterson (22:41):
I am actually I have the constitution of a
Kate Northrup (22:45):
You do, and just as case in point, we live in the
same state, and I mean, a couplehot more seconds. And like, I've
been asking you to come on thepodcast for, you know, for Eight
years. Yeah. For a really longtime. And you're a dear friend
of mine, and I know you lovespending time with me, but it's
hard to get you out.
(23:06):
Yeah. Yeah. So it's such a Imean, I'm thrilled you're here.
And also, it's such a testamentto anyway, okay, that's a whole
other story. So you were so it's2020.
Everything's canceled.Everything's
Meggan Watterson (23:17):
And going inward was okay. So
Kate Northrup (23:21):
it's like
Meggan Watterson (23:21):
if we all have to be still, and be still for
longer than what's normal,
Kate Northrup (23:27):
then And way longer than what's comfortable.
Meggan Watterson (23:29):
Right, right, for all of us. I mean was an
opportunity for so many of us,and so amidst the death. And I
think for me it just became thetext I needed to study because
of that one line that and thewomen all cried out in a loud
(23:52):
voice as if from one mouth. Wehad gone through Me Too, we had
gone through the women's march,we had, you know, through the
the gyms the girls gymnastics.Oh yeah.
Like that revelation. Like wehad been through so much of this
reclaiming of our voices andputting words to what we had all
(24:15):
just put up with
Kate Northrup (24:16):
Mhmm.
Meggan Watterson (24:17):
But saying we're not going to anymore. And
I felt like I hadn't appliedthat to my own life. Like I I
hadn't gone through that. I hadmarched, you know, I had done
all the things, but I I hadn'treally undergone that with
myself. That sense of what doesit mean because at the end of,
(24:42):
and this is a spoiler, but okayat the end of the book, it's
like Thekla fighting for herfreedom gives permission to all
the women in the arena to fightfor their freedom as well.
So there's a formula about whathappens when we unite. But for
(25:03):
me, everything external is alsointernal. So that union I knew
also had to happen within me.Like what does that mean for me
to really fight for my life andto fight for something don't
make me cry. To fight, like toreally ask for more than I even
(25:23):
knew how to ask for.
And I was very aware at thattime that I had been living off
of crumbs when it came to love.And that's really what I see
Thekla refusing and the women inthe crowd refusing is the crumbs
of power. They they refuse toaccept that anymore. And so it
(25:48):
was just that was one of thegifts that that that really
intense period in all of ourlives, 2020, was giving to me
was like, how can I really findthat place within me that
believes in me in a way whereI've never been able to practice
(26:09):
it yet? You know, I haven'treally put it into my life
directly.
And her scripture is just 45chapters, but it is so powerful
and I couldn't stop studying it.You know, once I it's just I
couldn't I became obsessed withit and I just couldn't stop
reading it. I read it again andagain and again. And I practiced
(26:32):
something called Lectio Divina,is basically just a fancy
spiritual word for saying youmarinate over certain words,
certain passages. So I was doingthat for a lot of the passages
and it was showing me the waythat there's a template here in
the structure of the way shereaches.
(26:54):
Right? She starts off thisteenage girl with no power about
to be married off by her familyin this little red brick house,
to becoming one of the firstfemale followers of Christ and
and being given the commissionby Paul to to preach, but only
after she baptizes herself. So Ireally wanted to study that
(27:18):
Yeah. Transformation. Yeah.
Like, what and for me, becauseseven is just that's just my
number. I mean, that I justcan't I and there's like two
sevens in this book too becauseI also go through the seven
powers of Mary's gospel. The theseven stages, what was so
fascinating for me because I'msomeone who studied the Homeric
(27:41):
epics. Don't know if you Yeah,knew that about I studied them.
Kate Northrup (27:45):
I love learning new things Who about does that?
Who does that? No one.
Meggan Watterson (27:48):
But I did study them. And so there were
moments where I kept thinkingabout the differences. I was
doing
Kate Northrup (27:56):
this comparison.
Meggan Watterson (27:57):
If I was still in college I would have written
a paper about it. But I keptdoing these comparisons between
Odysseus where he starts off.What I found so striking is that
his story is one where he startsoff on an island, he's already
powerful, right? His storystarts he already has power and
(28:20):
agency. Theklas, she has nonewhen she starts.
And he goes back to his physicalhome. She starts off home and
also comes back home, but shecomes home to embodiment. Like,
she's fully she says this I amstatement to her mother, the
mother who, you know, offers toburn her at the stake. Yeah. And
(28:45):
she says this I am statementwhere for me it just felt like
there's something unique aboutthis template where it's more
about coming home to ourphysical body?
And how much more difficult isthat if your body is the one
that's considered less than?Right? There's a different
journey that has to happen.
Kate Northrup (29:05):
And Thekla lived how many years ago?
Meggan Watterson (29:08):
So her it's some scholars date her scripture
to as early as seventy AD. Soshe would have been first
century. Yeah. No. That'sconsidered
Kate Northrup (29:20):
Really? I don't
Meggan Watterson (29:21):
know. Second century? Yeah. Don't I have not.
Stop.
I hate time. I hate linear time.
Kate Northrup (29:25):
It's like so long ago.
Meggan Watterson (29:27):
So long ago.
Kate Northrup (29:29):
What what's so striking about her story
Meggan Watterson (29:35):
I
Kate Northrup (29:36):
is how deeply relevant it is today, and then
the way you wove in your ownstory, which is so brilliant,
and and I know that, you know,whatever, people think that
you're supposed to be a scholarand never put yourself in. Yes.
I'm like, that's so dumb, andalso terminally boring because
I'm so not interested in readingsomething that doesn't come from
(29:56):
a human. Like, there's no suchthing as the objective truth, so
can't we all just stoppretending Right. That we don't
all have strong opinions thatare shaped by our own reality?
Right.
Meggan Watterson (30:06):
I I think it's really important to name Yeah.
The fact that my metaphysicalbeliefs are affected by my
physical reality. Exactly. Andokay. So it's so you know that I
work at
Kate Northrup (30:20):
the intersection of our own personal worth,
money, the nervous system, andthe body. You and I ultimately,
we are so wildly different, andwe are
Meggan Watterson (30:29):
It's the same.
Kate Northrup (30:29):
Doing the exact same work. And so there was a
piece that you said here, and soI'm so struck by that journey of
coming into full embodiment in abody as the full journey home,
like the arrival, trickier,probably, you know, we would
imagine, when it's in a bodythat has not been lauded as the
(30:52):
right kind of body.
Meggan Watterson (30:53):
And And doesn't have a model And doesn't
of a spiritual Exactly.Authority that is That looks
like The same.
Kate Northrup (30:59):
Feels, you know, whatever. And so I just am so
struck by it's like, oh, wow.It's 2025, and this is freaking
relevant. So you wrote, for manyof us with trauma I'm like, oh,
that's not a funny sentence.Okay.
Hold on. Let me readjust.Adjust. Okay. Let me readjust.
Meggan Watterson (31:14):
Change
Kate Northrup (31:14):
time. For many of us with trauma, that path to
reclaiming a sense of our innateworthiness can be treacherous
and hard won. It's elusivebecause we often imagine it will
be given to us by someone else,that it will be accrued through
acts of service or throughexternal achievements, but our
worthiness in being human isdeeper and more hidden than
(31:34):
anything we can actually pointto, earn, or prove, and anything
that could, in the end, be takenfrom
Meggan Watterson (31:42):
us. Exactly.
Kate Northrup (31:43):
For you, since you became obsessed with this
scripture in 2020 when the worldstood still, now it's 2025.
You've been on quite a journey.We've all been on quite a
journey. But that piece for youwith your personal story living
in your body in this lifetime,what has changed for you as a
(32:05):
result of you journeying withher and writing this book and
being a total hermit? Like youjust went so fucking deep for
Meggan Watterson (32:14):
Full hermit.
Kate Northrup (32:15):
Five years.
Meggan Watterson (32:16):
Yeah. That's so wonderful.
Kate Northrup (32:17):
Yeah. Yeah. And how are you different now?
Meggan Watterson (32:20):
I think the way I like to describe this is
that I'm only ever more me. Soit's not so much different, it's
more being the one I've alwaysbeen. And it's just not having
to apologize or explain myself.It's just being fully who I've
(32:41):
always been with so much lesseffort. So there's that.
Kate Northrup (32:47):
No small thing.
Meggan Watterson (32:48):
The worst part though, and how that's changed
my life, is that I reallycouldn't see the way that my
attraction to my ex husband wasso tethered to my sense of self
worth. I could not see that. Andthat took some serious I mean,
(33:12):
that did take me stopping lifeand and really, really going
inward in a way where I met witha memory of my dad driving with
me drunk, which was notsomething I had ever repressed.
Yeah. It wasn't it was alwaysthere.
Kate Northrup (33:30):
Like, you knew.
Meggan Watterson (33:31):
I couldn't feel it. Right. I couldn't feel
what that did. To go throughthat, I couldn't feel it. And
finally, it was like being withTheckelo for this long, like
what she gave me was like thissense of mercy and love for
(33:54):
myself.
Like, where I was able to be inthat moment with, you know,
little nine year old me and theway that I just went silent, you
know. And I didn't want to upsethim. And but he was I mean, I'm
(34:19):
very lucky to have survived thatdrive. And I left my body in a
way it's taken me most of mylife to return. And it's like I
didn't know that I had that thatsense of a lack of self worth
(34:41):
from that moment because hecared more about drinking than
he did about my safety.
And I think because I'm soprotective and loyal, I love him
so much and he got sober. Soit's like I I didn't wanna go
back to that moment too for thatreason because that was one of
his lowest moments in life. Andso to be able to feel that
(35:08):
moment, it fundamentallyshifted, finally, my
relationship to really acceptingthe crumbs I was only ever
getting in that even at the bestmoments. It was it was not what
I who I am and and what I I am.It's it didn't match my
Kate Northrup (35:31):
Totally.
Meggan Watterson (35:32):
You know, it's just it there's so much love.
There's so much it's it's it'snot about it's not about him.
It's it's about me. And all thattime I had been waiting him to
to finally choose me. You know?
Like and I've read I've seenthose Hallmark movies. Like,
I've read those books. I knew Iwas supposed to choose me. I I
(35:53):
But it's like, how do you do it?What Okay.
So
Kate Northrup (35:58):
I I told you I didn't need your book because I
was like, well, it's not likeI'm gonna sit here quoting it.
Turns out I actually am. So youalso wrote in here, you quoted
Ruby who Oh, yeah. Juices.Juices.
Thank you. I live I in I Miami,so I wanna call her Ruby who
says. Juices. Yeah, anyway,okay, so anything that is
familiar to the brain is seen assafe. Right.
(36:20):
Even if it is harmful or notwhat we want. Our brain is
capable of learning the habit ofpain.
Meggan Watterson (36:26):
Exactly, and that's what I had done. I was
hardwired for pain. And I didn'tknow how to want more for myself
until her story. I didn't I andI think to a certain extent, we
get very comfortable. Like,that's where
Kate Northrup (36:43):
she It's starts very comfortable.
Meggan Watterson (36:44):
We she starts off in her little brick house
and like in this, you know, setcultural norm of you get married
and you go I think it's reallyhard to want more for ourselves,
you know, to to to really startto desire something new, a new
story. Because actually,
Kate Northrup (37:02):
you know, for our survival brain, wanting more is
perceived as a threat to ourliteral survival. So it makes
sense. We are wired this way,and also we can do that deeper
work of going deep within tofind the truth of who we are.
(37:22):
Now the other part of your storythat I did not know, but I
really loved reading about it,was really bold and courageous,
was about your journey ofgetting sober, sober. Yeah.
Because, you know, I've knownyou for a really freaking long I
met you the year your son wasborn, he's now nearly 16. I
(37:42):
know. I held him when he was aginormo baby.
Meggan Watterson (37:45):
I know.
Kate Northrup (37:48):
And you've never really been a drinker. That
wasn't part of my awareness ofyou. I mean, you know, red wine
here and there, but nothing.That's not a huge part of your
identity by any stretch. So I'mso curious because any time that
I talk about sobriety with ourcommunity, it's a really hot
(38:10):
topic.
Folks love learning about it.Mike and I have talked a lot
about it with his sobrietyjourney. As you know, I don't
drink, so I wanna know moreabout that and how it was
related to choosing yourself.
Meggan Watterson (38:26):
Yes. Very it was really critical. And I
really didn't want it to bebecause I don't like the hard
and fast traditional ways ofsomeone being spiritual is like,
you know, they wear white, don'tdrink, eat certain foods, like,
all of that. I I've never wantedto be someone who, like, adheres
to those types of things. So Iresisted and I resisted it for
(38:49):
so long.
I knew there was a problemthere. I actually knew way back,
like, when we were first, like,hanging out. And I would say
things actually to Gabbysometimes. And just sort of, you
know, put and it would surpriseme when I put it out there. It's
not that I was ever I never gotdrunk.
No. I never got drunk. So Ithink this is a nuanced sobriety
(39:12):
story. That's why I like it.
Kate Northrup (39:14):
Or or whatever. Any sobriety story is beautiful,
but I think it's interesting.
Meggan Watterson (39:18):
Yeah. Because I really didn't think I needed
to get sober because I was neverdrunk, but what I didn't
understand is that I had aproblem with drinking because I
was using it as a blanket. I wasusing it as a way to sort of
keep me in that place of juststaying in the pain. Like it let
(39:38):
me wallow in it. It let me sortof feel like actually what I
would hear sometimes when Iwould go, I had this tiny little
snifter.
I talk about it in the book.
Kate Northrup (39:49):
It's really
Meggan Watterson (39:50):
It was so tiny. It was so cute. It was
just a tiny little snifter.
Kate Northrup (39:53):
It's like a doll cup.
Meggan Watterson (39:55):
It was so cute. And so it never made me
feel like, oh, can't how can youhave a problem if you're like
Kate Northrup (39:59):
No. It's like me, you know, back in the day having
like like taking a knife andcutting off a piece of cake that
was like literally a half amillimeter, and then Doesn't But
by the time I had 25 of Notthose that you had.
Meggan Watterson (40:12):
No. No, I do that. I still am a lightweight.
No, but so I would have theselittle, you know Just a whiff.
Sips.
And it it definitely startedgetting more intense when I was
living in Cleveland. Right?That's where all everything bad
that's ever happened to me in mylife happened there. So it was
like returning there was reallya deep deep healing. Going back
(40:35):
and really being able to own andclaim and heal all of that.
But it was also hard. And sosometimes I would say I get to
have this. Was like because Isaw it as medicinal. It's like
no, I get to have this. I'vebeen through so much.
I've handled so much. There's somany things I do that are lady
(40:56):
boss, that are, you know Itravel by myself, I do so many
things, I'm like, I get to havethis. I get to have this. I get
to go a little numb. But it waskeeping me from that connection
to that memory.
It was keeping me fromultimately healing all the way
back and all the way through.And I knew it, actually when I
(41:18):
was doing the Lectio Divina withone of the passages, which was,
And Thekla did not turn back.Thekla did not turn back. That
is described of her sitting forthree days and three nights, The
scripture says, and Thekla didnot turn back. And that for me
lit up.
It was
Kate Northrup (41:37):
is at the beginning when she's at her
house and they keep calling toher
Meggan Watterson (41:40):
and her she won't mother turn is so pissed
because she's starting to existwith the unconditional realm.
Right? Unconditional loveaccessible within her.
Kate Northrup (41:49):
Mhmm.
Meggan Watterson (41:49):
She's not dealing with the conditional
love that they were offeringher. She was like, those were
crumbs. I'm ready for the cake.Like, I'm going inward. And so
they're all upset and trying topull her outward, but the
scripture says, Aunt Thekla didnot turn back.
And I was like, I've beenturning back periodically, you
(42:13):
know, like, anyone knowing.Yeah. We would get back together
again, never for long enoughusually to tell other people to
to others. But then also nottalking about it because I felt
ashamed. You know?
I felt like, didn't I alreadylearn this, like, 15 times?
Like, didn't I already learnthis? And how can I tell people
(42:33):
that, like, people who look upto me that I'm doing this? Like,
I'm I'm trying to make this workeven though it's shattering me
every time I try and it's endingin the exact same way. And so I
kept hearing that and Thekla didnot turn back.
So I kept asking, and this isinwardly, how do I not turn
(42:58):
back? Like how do I not? Iliterally felt, I actually felt
like I had more control over thered wine than I did over getting
back together with him. I feltpowerless. Felt out of control
and I felt powerless.
But I so for me I refer to it asgetting sober sober because it
was like I had to get rid of thethe blanket, the red wine. Like
(43:18):
I had to rip off that comforterand I had to get really naked
and I had to look that in theeye and figure out why why did I
keep choosing this? And that'swhat it took. It took really
just never. And I've, you know,I feel like since healing, you
know, maybe in some people'ssobriety journey, they would
(43:40):
feel okay at this point.
Like, it's been four years now.You know, maybe they would feel
okay with integrating somealcohol or you know? It has
never felt right for me again.And it's not a struggle, but
either is the other thing. And Ifeel like they're tethered
together.
I just That's wild. Yeah. I feelgood being sober, sober.
Kate Northrup (44:01):
Yeah. Yeah. And the pattern in your romantic
life, you said it also has notbeen a struggle.
Meggan Watterson (44:10):
Right. Oh no. I Yeah. Mean,
Kate Northrup (44:12):
That a is freaking revelation. I just
like, I don't want anyonehearing around anything that we
feel we're powerless about,whether it's overspending, some
kind of drug. Honestly,addiction to anything, right?
And you may not label it thatway, and I think we don't need
to, but things that we feelcompelled
Meggan Watterson (44:34):
around that we think like maybe
Kate Northrup (44:37):
this is going to be hard forever, and I'll have
to be in this tug of war withmyself, and it's gonna be a
fight forever. I just wantpeople to
Meggan Watterson (44:47):
hear Yes, thank you.
Kate Northrup (44:48):
Four years. It's not a struggle because you
healed all the way in and allthe way through. And that peace
that Ruby, Jesus, whatever name,it's so powerful that, you know,
I talk about this all the time,that we will go back to what it
doesn't feel good, but it feelslike home until we change the
(45:13):
thermostat setting. And changingthe thermostat setting requires
feeling a bunch of things thatwe did not previously have, the
infrastructure, the support, theemotional turgor, to feel. It's
not bad.
I don't think that emotionalavoidance or repression or
(45:33):
whatever, I don't think it'sanything to feel guilt or shame
about. It's just you have tobuild enough of a foundation to
have the ability to do that. Ilike to describe healing as
Meggan Watterson (45:43):
a nautilus for that reason, because I think
it's really important we don'tshame ourselves for not having
healed by a certain lineartimeline because that's not the
way works. The soul is in kairostime. It's not in chronological
time. And for me, it was that Ihad to become enough love that
could reach all the way backthere. Had to accrue it.
(46:06):
Yes. Yes. Exactly. So it wasthat timing, not linear time.
Yeah.
Kate Northrup (46:14):
And when you tell that story about that moment for
you with your dad, one of thethings that you do so
brilliantly, and I use you as anexample about this all the time
actually, when people are askingabout how do I write about what
happened to me without throwingthe people I love under the bus.
Right. And you do that in themost elegant, you did it in
(46:35):
Reveal, you did it in MaryMagdalene Revealed, you did it
again, and I'm like, damn, howdoes she do that? The
overflowing love you have andyour ability to take
responsibility for your own sideof the street without making
anyone wrong, but while at thesame time telling the truth,
that is some alchemy. Like, it'sincredible.
How do you do that?
Meggan Watterson (46:56):
So I owe it all to meditation. That's
meditation. That's going inward.That's And I wanted to say with
that piece that I'm so gratefulthat you brought up about, you
know, that there is a waythrough. Because I think if
there was one formula that's inthis book, it's that the only
(47:17):
way out is is within.
It's the only way out is within.And I think that's probably the
least popular formula.
Kate Northrup (47:25):
Totally.
Meggan Watterson (47:25):
I think it's I think it's what we all
Kate Northrup (47:28):
Can it be a cream?
Meggan Watterson (47:29):
Can it be anything other than that? Like,
anything other than that, youknow?
Kate Northrup (47:35):
Yes. It's so true.
Meggan Watterson (47:37):
It just is It's the last place
Kate Northrup (47:39):
we ever wanna go in. It's last place we look.
Meggan Watterson (47:42):
We look. And it's it's it's where real
transformation has to happen. Iknow. It really does. Okay, I
Kate Northrup (47:50):
have a silly story about that because I think
you're gonna like I haven't toldyou this story, don't So
remember, I don't know if I toldyou that I really messed up with
my digestion in a variety ofways, we don't need to get into
the details. And then up I got afever every month for eighteen
months.
Meggan Watterson (48:06):
Wow.
Kate Northrup (48:07):
I ended up losing my hearing. It was a whole
thing. And I finally, you know,I had gone to every single
holistic doctor, I'm looking allover the internet for who's e,
what are and then I also startedgaining weight. And I'm really
healthy, so just sudden weightgain was like, I'm not gonna buy
new pants?
Meggan Watterson (48:27):
I'm gonna buy new pants, I like
Kate Northrup (48:28):
my pants. And so all of that, eighteen months of
that, okay, know, short, I knowall the best holistic who's y,
what's I'm having sessions withthem, and I'm like, are you my
mother? Are you my know, thelittle duck, right? Gonna fix
me?
Meggan Watterson (48:45):
Who's gonna
Kate Northrup (48:47):
heal me? Nobody. I go to these people, and
they're lovely, but I'm like,you know, this is this is come
on. Really? This is child'splay, what you're giving me
right now.
So I finally I'm in a hotel roomin Orange County by myself going
to bed at When I'm on the WestCoast for a short period of
time, I stay on East Coast time,so I go to bed when the sun is
(49:07):
setting out there, so I'm bymyself, sun setting, I'm trying
to go to bed, it's like, youknow, 06:30
Meggan Watterson (49:14):
in California,
Kate Northrup (49:17):
and I go into a meditation because I'm like,
Mother effer, how can I be thissick for this long? It's
ridiculous. And I go inside, andI just asked my body, hey, what
do you need? And it was like,and I heard the word peptides.
And I was like, I don't evenknow what peptides are.
(49:38):
So I start to Google whatpeptides are. I end up taking
this course for practitioners onmicrodosing peptides. I learn
the whole thing. I get mypractitioners, I become the CEO
of my own health, hello,obviously. I know how to do
this.
And it's like one month on thisripe peptide cocktail, whatever,
(49:58):
fix it completely, and my bodygave me a word I don't even
know.
Meggan Watterson (50:02):
The body never lies. Isn't that incredible?
Body
Kate Northrup (50:05):
never It's the last place we look, And this is,
you know, and it's likeembarrassing because it's like
the last place we look even whenthis is what we freaking do.
Meggan Watterson (50:15):
I think surrender is hardwired in us to
only arrive at via exhaustion.Yeah. You
Kate Northrup (50:21):
know? I know.
Meggan Watterson (50:23):
It's like why we just don't immediately go
there. But I also thinksometimes it takes a level of
being comfortable with the factthat it's really that easier,
like it's really that easy.Actually so And that it's really
that we're that powerful. Thinkthat's hard. I think that all we
need to do is go inward foranswers that we're seeking
(50:44):
outward, you know, to find.
It's very Dorothy, wizard It'sof the freaking Red. It's
freaking Dorothy I know. Thewhole My God, it's so
Kate Northrup (50:55):
Okay, one thing we haven't talked about is that
the massive through line in thisbook, like this is a book about
worth. And at the time ofThekla's life, women were
property. And that is true insome cases today as well, like
there are places where thathasn't changed. And I was so
(51:18):
struck by the reclamation ofthat deep well of worth, and for
myself, reading the book again,I've been thinking about my next
body of work and how I'm gonnaget out into the world, and I
was feeling so and I would neverhave articulated like, oh, I'm
(51:39):
having a self worth issue,right? But I was feeling
beholden to the fancy powersthat be, you know, without
getting into the details, butlike feeling like I was waiting
for someone outside to chooseme.
Is fundamentally Such Right. Athe It's such a default. And
(52:02):
reading her story right at thattime when I was making some bold
decisions about choosing myselfwas really medicinal. I'm so
glad you wrote this book. Andyou are different.
More yourself.
Meggan Watterson (52:18):
Yeah.
Kate Northrup (52:18):
Right? Like, you are more yourself. I can I can
see it, I can feel it, and eventhe way that this particular
book, you need to share anydetails that aren't relevant or
don't feel like you want to, butcan you talk about the way that
the publishing contract evenhappened and some of the magic
in that? Because one of thethings I love about you to just
(52:40):
kind of weave this conversationhome is you do not have a
marketing bone in your body.Right.
Your business and your work hasa life of its own because it's
so potent and so needed, and theway that it's like the worth of
(53:00):
you shines through in theseworks, that you don't have to
have a campaign to get that,right? God is handling that. So
can you talk about what it waslike for you to get this book
deal and any of that feelsrelevant? It was Around the
worth piece?
Meggan Watterson (53:19):
I So because I spent so much time with Thekla
during that quiet, you know,insular time, I had this very
strong sense that, you know, forevery book, it we have to become
the woman who finishes it, youknow. And so it's when you sign
(53:44):
a contract, you're also signingup to to do the work. This is
how it's been for me. This isthe truth for me. And there was
this knowing.
I don't know how else todescribe it, just that Thekla
was gonna be at a differentpublishing house. I just always
knew that. Mhmm. And it feltmore like it was a part of the
story I was gonna have to gothrough, the experiences I was
(54:06):
gonna have to hold in terms ofmy own sense of claiming my
worth as a writer, understandingthe worth of what I've already
created, which I hadn't. Ihadn't really fully acknowledged
or understood.
And part of moving to adifferent publishing house
brought that along for me. Andthen there's just this
(54:27):
unspeakable part which isinestival and it's a part of,
you know, alignment, abundancefrom a place that can't be
described in earthly materialform, which was in the form of
my editor, Jamia, who I'd knownsince Reveal days and Red Lady
(54:48):
days, and that she was at thepublishing house that I went to.
And it it just we met at Omega,and it just all the way that it
unfolded just had that air ofmeant to be and the ease of of
that alignment that I know. Youknow, it's it's like it has a
certain tenor to But then alsothe timing of when this book
(55:12):
comes out, is really phenomenalbecause it ended up being 2025,
the summer of twenty twentyfive, which is the jubilee year
according to the Vatican. Andthis year is celebrating the
codification, the beginning ofthe process of the codification
of the New Testament when theActs of Paul and Thekla was
(55:34):
edited out.
She Woah. And I purposely, like,held to when during the editing
process, and Jamia was verysupportive of everything that I
felt really convicted about,keeping the passages of the Acts
and Palin Thekla in it. Eventhough it made it maybe more
(55:55):
spiritual or religious than itultimately is, I wanted her, her
voice, her actual scripture tobe in print.
Kate Northrup (56:05):
So it comes out. Wow.
Meggan Watterson (56:08):
This is geeky theological I am. But it's being
published the year the Vaticanis celebrating when it was
ultimately Erased. Erased.Buried. So to me, moments like
that are so profound and theymake me feel so relieved because
(56:30):
I feel so tiny.
I feel like just one little partof it is It's not just on I'm
showing up and I'm doing whatI'm meant to do but there's this
tapestry that's so much greaterthan this one little red thread
that I am. And for me it's good.
Kate Northrup (56:53):
We don't have to push to make what's meant to
happen.
Meggan Watterson (56:56):
Yes. Yes. I am You are that. I am the
lighthouse version of, you know,I mean, it's never been in me.
It just, you know, and I didthink about that though once.
I was like, why are you notambitious? Like, why do you lack
any of You are ambitious. It'sin a very different direction.
Kate Northrup (57:21):
Yeah. I would never not call you ambitious.
Really? I would never call you amarketer. Okay.
But you are freaking ambitious.Mean, are taking on Christianity
as we know it. Okay. So Hello?Alright.
That's freaking ambitious.
Meggan Watterson (57:38):
I guess guess I because that's so much who I
am, it doesn't feel ambitious.What I was gonna say is my
ambition is inward. Like, Iwanna feel love at all times in
all places. To me, that'sambitious. You know?
(57:59):
That's ambitious. You
Kate Northrup (58:01):
know? Mean, is there really anything else?
Like, I think we're gonna get tothe end and be like, oh, turns
out that was it. That was thewhole point. I love you.
Meggan Watterson (58:13):
I love you too. I'm so proud
Kate Northrup (58:15):
of you.
Meggan Watterson (58:15):
I love you.
Kate Northrup (58:16):
What if managing money felt effortless? You've
worked so hard to earn money, sowhy does it feel stressful?
Well, I wanna introduce you tosomething brand new that I've
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(58:38):
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I didn't need to use language anymore. They
(00:02):
knew from the look on my facethat there was no mirror needed.
And what was so powerful in thatmoment was that I could feel and
I knew everything. Like I kneweverything I needed to know and
I really owned it.
Kate Northrup (00:16):
One of my best friends in the world is on the
podcast today. I have beentrying to get her in this
freaking studio for years. Andthough she lives in the same
state as me, it is hard to getthis woman out of her house. Her
name is Megan Waterson. She isthe Wall Street Journal
bestselling author of MaryMagdalene Revealed, and her
(00:37):
brand new book, The Girl WhoBaptized Herself, is out today.
I am so proud of Megan and thefive years that she devoted of
her life to this particularscripture, this particular
story, and the relevancy it hasfor humans, particularly women
today. And in this conversation,we went everywhere from Meg's
(01:02):
story of getting sober sober tomy story of how this book about
a girl who baptized herselfreally helped me to unhook from
some really sneaky ways in mylife that I was still waiting
for permission, still waiting tobe chosen. So if there's any
(01:22):
part of you that is waiting tohave what you want, settling for
crumbs, going back over and overand over again to situations or
people that you know are justnot it, this conversation is for
you. Meg is not only trainedfrom Harvard and Columbia in
(01:45):
divinity and theology, she'shysterical and one of the most
human, real people you will evermeet as well as one of the most
brilliant. So enjoy the episode.
Welcome to Plenty. I'm your hostKate Northrup and together we
are going on a journey to helpyou have an incredible
(02:08):
relationship with money, time,and energy. And to have
abundance on every possiblelevel. Every week, we're gonna
dive in with experts andinsights to help you unlock a
life of plenty. Let's go fillour cups.
Speaker 3 (02:28):
Please note that the opinions and perspectives of the
guests on the Plenty podcast arenot necessarily reflective of
the opinions and perspectives ofKate Northrop or anyone who
works within the Kate Northropbrand.
Meggan Watterson (02:40):
Say hi. I love you.
Kate Northrup (02:41):
I love you too. Thanks for being here. Lady.
Okay. Yeah.
Wow. So you already crying?
Meggan Watterson (02:48):
I'm already crying.
Kate Northrup (02:52):
I just saw that. Okay, so for context.
Meggan Watterson (02:56):
Yeah.
Kate Northrup (02:56):
Today I actually I am gonna cry. I'm gonna cry
right now. I wanna talk becauseso many people talk about
meeting friends as a grown up.
Meggan Watterson (03:07):
Yeah.
Kate Northrup (03:08):
And that that can be a challenge, and it has not
been a challenge for me, but Iwanted to share the story of how
we met, and a little bit aboutthe weaving, just for context of
our conversation, but alsobecause I really like the story,
and just about how our peopleare out there, and if we remain
(03:31):
plugged in to the signal, it'sreally obvious.
Meggan Watterson (03:34):
So
Kate Northrup (03:36):
I know that you remember how we met, but we met,
I was in New York, and you werein New York, and this woman I
had known because she had workedwith my mom years before Gail
Straub, who used to run theempowerment workshops, which is
where my mom met Ned Leavitt,became her agent, whatever, she,
I don't remember why, but shesaid to me, I know this woman,
(03:58):
Megan Waterson, and I think youshould meet her. She's doing
this conference, you should go.And then after, it was your very
first reveal. Yep. What year wasthat?
Meggan Watterson (04:09):
2011, I think. No, '20 It would have been 2010.
No, twenty o nine. Think it waso nine. Shay was still because
Shay was A baby.
He was like nine months old.
Kate Northrup (04:21):
And when what year was he born? February?
Meggan Watterson (04:23):
02/2009.
Kate Northrup (04:24):
And you just you gave birth to your first baby,
and you did Reveal Yeah. Thesame year?
Meggan Watterson (04:29):
Same year.
Kate Northrup (04:29):
What is that do you think?
Meggan Watterson (04:30):
I
Kate Northrup (04:31):
know so many women who do really big things
in their career the year theyhave a child.
Meggan Watterson (04:36):
What was that about for you? I think it's
interesting, but I recently washaving this conversation with
someone online that there's sofew rituals to mark the way that
we really die when we givebirth. Like, we are not the
person we were at all. Like, wecan't even refer back to that
(04:57):
person. There is an actual deathand rebirth, and that we need
more of that language, the wordsto really describe what that was
like.
Like I can literally pinpointthe moment. It was when the
doulas wanted to bring themirror to look at my vagina, and
(05:17):
I was like, I didn't need to uselanguage anymore. They knew from
the look on my face that therewas no mirror needed. And what
was so powerful in that momentwas that I could feel and I knew
everything. Like, I kneweverything I needed to know, and
I really owned it.
There was a sense of authority Ireclaimed or claimed in that
(05:39):
moment where that was the end ofthe former self, and I began
again in that moment becausethere was no reference. Like a
mirror is a reflection. It's areference. It's a distraction
though. It's a once removed.
And in that moment it was like,no. I know exactly where he is.
I know exactly how I'm doing,and I know what I'm doing. They
(06:02):
wanted me to not scream asloudly, like, to sort of rein in
some energy, which I dounderstand why that's but I was
at a point of there's no comingback from where I was, you know?
I was ardently and veryenthusiastically calling for
Christ
Kate Northrup (06:19):
every time I pushed. Yeah.
Meggan Watterson (06:20):
And I was screaming at the top of my
lungs. I mean, and I knew, Iknew physically that's what I
needed to do to get And him outof this so it didn't matter what
was happening outside of me. Iknew, as in directly from within
me, what I needed to do. Andthat's when the old me died and
(06:42):
a new and maybe that's theinitiation into motherhood. But
for me, how is this related towhat you asked?
Kate Northrup (06:52):
Well, this is so perfect. It's just the perfect
place to begin. I mean What wasthe question you would ask me?
Meggan Watterson (07:00):
I asked you.
Kate Northrup (07:01):
I have no idea. I asked you, what was it for you
about giving birth to Shay inthe same
Meggan Watterson (07:10):
year
Kate Northrup (07:10):
and giving birth to Reveal?
Meggan Watterson (07:12):
Okay, so the last sort of tether that I want
to say to that is that I don'tthink it was an accident that I
didn't publish until after hewas born. Yeah. Because there's
a level of self doubt then.Yeah. I still struggle with it
(07:32):
to this day as a writer, but itfundamentally shifted because
you go through that actualdeath.
Like I really feel like I felt adeath. And I understood
physically both how infinite weare, but also that the infinite
(07:52):
is terrifying because we onlyget to be in this physical body.
Kate Northrup (07:56):
Which is quite finite.
Meggan Watterson (07:58):
It's so finite. So brief. I mean it's
just insane how brief it is. Soto feel that and to know that
physically in that moment, itallowed me to have, like, this
tool, you know, this to use thatfeeling as a touchstone when I
would start to doubt myself as awriter. And I think for me
(08:21):
though, it was also that Ineeded community in order to
write.
So I love that with my story,There was reveal first, where I
was calling it
Kate Northrup (08:31):
Right, all was of a community first.
Meggan Watterson (08:33):
It was a community first. I didn't
publish until After.
Kate Northrup (08:36):
I mean it was amazing. So I show up there
because Gail told me to go, andGail was like, I think you
should be friends with Megan,and then we she introduced us,
and I had just offered randomly.I was like, hey, you just did a
really big thing. Literally, Idid not know you. You're a brand
new mom, you know, but I waslike, if you wanna hop on Skype
(08:57):
just for a digestion of this bigthing that you just did, I'd be
happy to be that person for you.
And then we Skyped, which wasthat's how long ago, because who
even what even is that? WeSkyped you when you were in
Cleveland with Baby Sheavisiting your mom that summer.
Meggan Watterson (09:15):
Yeah.
Kate Northrup (09:15):
And then that was that.
Meggan Watterson (09:17):
That was it.
Kate Northrup (09:18):
That was it. It was love at first sight. It was
love at first sight. And you hadcreated this incredible
community first, which you hadcreated Red Ladies before that.
Right.
But Reveal was on a much biggerscale.
Meggan Watterson (09:31):
Right. Because my apartment was getting too
small to hold the Red Ladies,and also I wanted to make a
louder call, you know, to tothrow the net out wider for all
different forms of religions andspiritualities so so that the
voices of the women that werecoming together I wanted to
(09:54):
understand, okay, how do we nameand describe the divine? How do
we name and experience anddescribe mystical experiences?
Like, what what is ultimate forus? Like, what is really sacred?
Right? Because what's alwaysfascinated me the most is I have
equal rage and excitement aboutso many things that have to do
(10:16):
with religion. And one of thethings when I was in seminary
was just the realization of theway that all of these practices
have been fundamentallystructured by men and described
by men and from the maleexperience. So to me, there's so
(10:39):
much excitement in thinkingabout creating that that void.
Like, there hasn't been thatsame expression, that that same
amount of container for a femalebody and what it means to to
encounter the divine in thefemale experience.
And so it it excited me becauseit was sort of like, you know,
(11:04):
the monk's experience is reallylike a typical Tuesday for any
woman. I love this word,
Kate Northrup (11:12):
yeah.
Meggan Watterson (11:12):
Yeah. I mean it's it's like emotional
support, emphasis on self denialand Like emotional repression.
Kate Northrup (11:20):
Yeah. Really.
Meggan Watterson (11:21):
And and really the silence, the quiet, all of
those spiritual norms that weassociate with spirituality, I I
loved being able to question isthat really spiritual for me,
for my experience, when that'salready expected of me in
culture because I'm female. Sowhat does it mean for me to be
(11:44):
spiritual? Maybe it means, youknow, saying the thing that's
never been said before. Maybethat's so much more spiritual.
Maybe it's just something thatwe haven't quite put words to
yet.
Kate Northrup (11:58):
And that we each get to explore for ourselves. As
someone like you who isliterally trained in theology
the way Sorry,
Meggan Watterson (12:11):
in theology.
Kate Northrup (12:17):
Like you went to the school to learn the way it
Uh-huh, went to and then whileyou were there, I believe,
although maybe it happenedbefore, you discovered the this
is not the correct word, whatI'm about to say, but what I
wanna say is the lost gospels.What are they actually called?
Meggan Watterson (12:35):
Well, so typically, when I was at
seminary and divinity school,they were referred to as the
Gnostic Gospels. Thank you. Yes.And that's both that's been
helpful and also problematic.
Kate Northrup (12:49):
Okay.
Meggan Watterson (12:50):
The the way that it's helpful is that it it
allows us to group themtogether. They're all the
scriptures that were notcodified in the New Testament in
the fourth century, and there'sa reason for that. One is that
they focused on gnosticism orthe word gnosis in Greek, which
(13:11):
means direct knowing. Yeah. Sowhich I love.
And they all that's that's sortof a red thread that runs
through them. And also theyinclude so many of the stories
of women, like the Gospel ofMary and the Acts of Fall and
Thecla, which is what this nextbook is about. So they were not
included, but there were a wholebunch of rebel monks. You know,
(13:34):
somebody refused to get rid ofthem and they buried them in
urns in the Egyptian Desert. Andsome were found at Nag Hammadi,
the Gospel of Mary was not, itwas found, along the Nile.
So they're grouped together, butthe problematic part about them
is that they get misunderstoodas being a separate religion or
(13:57):
a separate separate cult orspirituality. They are actual
evidence of the root system ofthe Christ movement, of the form
of Christianity that existedbefore the fourth century.
Kate Northrup (14:11):
And in the fourth century, to catch anybody up who
is not aware of how the KingJames Bible as we understand it
came to be Right. Can you justlet us know what was that actual
history and what was actuallygoing on there and what was the
point of the Bible at that time?So Or that So version of the
Meggan Watterson (14:30):
Emperor Constantine wanted to make
Christianity the empire'sreligion. And what's very
significant is that up untilthat point, there's like
hundreds of years, right, afterChrist's crucifixion before
Christianity began. And duringthat time period, if you were
Christian, you were killed. Sothat's how seditious it was to
(14:53):
be Christian because if you wereChristian, you were essentially
challenging all the powerstructures of the Roman Empire.
You're saying the the love, thepower that exists within me
exists within you too, whetheryou're male or female.
And if you were male and female,that was a whole very different
reality for you. Yeah. Femaleshad you couldn't vote, you
(15:17):
couldn't run for public office,they had next to no rights. So a
female was considered less than,literally was not a whole human
being, was not a whole only themale body was the full human
being. And what's so powerfulabout the Gospel of Mary is this
constant repetition of thatChrist had called us to be true
(15:38):
human beings.
So all of us, male and female.So the emphasis then is on what
exists within us that can't beseen in this physical form, but
that is renders us all equal.And that was the part that kind
of pissed Constantine off anddidn't work with the idea of
(16:01):
making Christianity becomepatriarchal. Right? If you have
all this evidence of women beingin, you know, girls baptizing
themselves and women being inthe most prominent positions of
power like Mary Magdalene, thenthat's not gonna work to have
Christianity become the empire'sreligion.
Kate Northrup (16:23):
Right.
Meggan Watterson (16:24):
So really what was happening during that
process was editing out thescriptures that told that story
about Christ and including thescriptures that really told what
scholar Karen King refers to asthe master story. And it's this
idea that it is a male,exclusively male succession of
(16:50):
authority, spiritual authoritycoming down from Christ, and
that it's only males. And sothat was established at that
time. Really what happened wasthe patriarchy became deified.
Got
Kate Northrup (17:02):
it. Yeah. And that was very much on purpose.
And so this idea that we canrefer to the Bible, which is the
King James version that we seein any hotel room, whatever,
along with the Book of Mormon,that that is some sort of end
(17:23):
all, be all, as though it waswritten by God
Meggan Watterson (17:26):
Right.
Kate Northrup (17:27):
Him him, her, themselves Right. Is not
actually historically accurate.Right. And this is not something
that I found out, and it's thisRight.
Meggan Watterson (17:39):
One's ever This is It was
Kate Northrup (17:41):
common knowledge. Everybody. Everybody who goes
through
Meggan Watterson (17:44):
any kind of even small amount of Totally. I
mean, history or or studyingtheology, but or a religion
course. Yeah. I mean, anyone canlearn this. This is very
accessible.
I think what's hard
Kate Northrup (17:57):
It's it's accessible, but, like, there's a
lot of Amnesia
Meggan Watterson (18:01):
about Exactly. Exactly. There really is.
There's this intractabilityaround the idea that actually,
maybe the Christianity beforeConstantine got his hands on it
was far more radical thananything we have ever
Kate Northrup (18:19):
Okay. So you gave me the girl.
Meggan Watterson (18:25):
Yes.
Kate Northrup (18:26):
Your brand new book. Yes. The Girl Who Baptized
Herself at the time ofpublication of this episode. It
is out today, And pub I wasgoing through my own thing about
needing to choose myself, and Iassume I'm like, whatever, I've
been at this for a long time,like, I don't have self worth
(18:48):
issues, I don't know who to puta I mean, I'm very humble, like,
you know I'm always working onmy shit. Yeah.
But I wasn't aware of some sortof gaping wound where I really
needed some kind of empoweringfemale story. I'm lying in bed
reading this book, and I waslike,
Meggan Watterson (19:06):
it was
Kate Northrup (19:06):
like, bomb to my soul. And so I'm happy to share
more about that, but I want toknow, do you remember the moment
when you knew you needed to tellher story in a bigger way? And
how did you know this was yournext book?
Meggan Watterson (19:28):
Two moments. The first was when I first ever
heard of this story when I wasin seminary.
Kate Northrup (19:34):
Okay. So this has been a long time coming.
Meggan Watterson (19:36):
Yeah. And I mean, a girl who baptized
herself, a girl who's constantlyhaving to save herself, because
that's another thread. Like,literally, she physically has to
save herself. She spirituallyhas to save herself. I was like,
there cannot be a more relevantmessage.
Like No.
Kate Northrup (19:54):
We can't wait for
Meggan Watterson (19:56):
anyone to save us. Like, we have to save
ourselves, but we're not toldthat ever.
Kate Northrup (20:01):
You said is demonstrating for us that no one
is coming to save us, no oneexcept the one we become by
saving ourselves.
Meggan Watterson (20:08):
So good. And and I just I was again, it's
that those two moments, I'malways existing on the extremes,
which touch each other. Right?So that works out.
Kate Northrup (20:21):
But, like A big old horseshoe.
Meggan Watterson (20:22):
So so irate and angry that I'm I'd never
heard of her. Like, how was itpossible? Everybody's heard of
Paul. Like, everybody's heardwell, okay. Maybe not everybody,
but most people know of Paul theapostle a little bit.
You know? A little bit. A littlebit. But no one has heard of
like, even the most devout, Ireally struggle to there are so
(20:47):
few people who have heard aboutThekla, and yet she ministered
right alongside him. So it's thethe anger about that erasure,
the anger about, you know, thatas a girl, I didn't get to have
this example, this model.
I didn't I didn't have this. Ididn't have this road map to
reclaiming my worth within aspiritual context. But then,
(21:09):
it's also the excitement. Like,how Okay, so it was saved.
Somebody saved it.
Someone buried it. And we haveit. And just also the trust in
the timing. So there was thatmoment when I first encountered
it, I absolutely knew my lifewas about bringing these voices
(21:33):
that literally had been buried,like actually buried in the
sand, to bring these buriedvoices to the present moment.
But then in 2020 was whenbecause the world was standing
still, right, and I was goinginward in a way that I mean, of
(21:57):
course, you know for me that'smy favorite pilgrimage.
My favorite form of travel isgoing inward. And all of my book
tour for Mary Magdalene Revealedwas canceled.
Kate Northrup (22:09):
Because the pub date of Mary Magdalene Revealed
was
Meggan Watterson (22:12):
Was 2019. Was at the end of twenty nineteen.
Kate Northrup (22:15):
Yeah. Okay. That was a bit of a wash. Right.
Meggan Watterson (22:18):
2019. And so we just all everything that I
had planned for this spring andthis summer, everything was
canceled. Yeah. Which, you know,there was quiet celebration in
me around that. I'm okay withwith that.
If you
Kate Northrup (22:31):
don't know Megan, she does not like to get on
airplanes or really leave homefor really any reason.
Meggan Watterson (22:41):
I am actually I have the constitution of a
Kate Northrup (22:45):
You do, and just as case in point, we live in the
same state, and I mean, a couplehot more seconds. And like, I've
been asking you to come on thepodcast for, you know, for Eight
years. Yeah. For a really longtime. And you're a dear friend
of mine, and I know you lovespending time with me, but it's
hard to get you out.
(23:06):
Yeah. Yeah. So it's such a Imean, I'm thrilled you're here.
And also, it's such a testamentto anyway, okay, that's a whole
other story. So you were so it's2020.
Everything's canceled.Everything's
Meggan Watterson (23:17):
And going inward was okay. So
Kate Northrup (23:21):
it's like
Meggan Watterson (23:21):
if we all have to be still, and be still for
longer than what's normal,
Kate Northrup (23:27):
then And way longer than what's comfortable.
Meggan Watterson (23:29):
Right, right, for all of us. I mean was an
opportunity for so many of us,and so amidst the death. And I
think for me it just became thetext I needed to study because
of that one line that and thewomen all cried out in a loud
(23:52):
voice as if from one mouth. Wehad gone through Me Too, we had
gone through the women's march,we had, you know, through the
the gyms the girls gymnastics.Oh yeah.
Like that revelation. Like wehad been through so much of this
reclaiming of our voices andputting words to what we had all
(24:15):
just put up with
Kate Northrup (24:16):
Mhmm.
Meggan Watterson (24:17):
But saying we're not going to anymore. And
I felt like I hadn't appliedthat to my own life. Like I I
hadn't gone through that. I hadmarched, you know, I had done
all the things, but I I hadn'treally undergone that with
myself. That sense of what doesit mean because at the end of,
(24:42):
and this is a spoiler, but okayat the end of the book, it's
like Thekla fighting for herfreedom gives permission to all
the women in the arena to fightfor their freedom as well.
So there's a formula about whathappens when we unite. But for
(25:03):
me, everything external is alsointernal. So that union I knew
also had to happen within me.Like what does that mean for me
to really fight for my life andto fight for something don't
make me cry. To fight, like toreally ask for more than I even
(25:23):
knew how to ask for.
And I was very aware at thattime that I had been living off
of crumbs when it came to love.And that's really what I see
Thekla refusing and the women inthe crowd refusing is the crumbs
of power. They they refuse toaccept that anymore. And so it
(25:48):
was just that was one of thegifts that that that really
intense period in all of ourlives, 2020, was giving to me
was like, how can I really findthat place within me that
believes in me in a way whereI've never been able to practice
(26:09):
it yet? You know, I haven'treally put it into my life
directly.
And her scripture is just 45chapters, but it is so powerful
and I couldn't stop studying it.You know, once I it's just I
couldn't I became obsessed withit and I just couldn't stop
reading it. I read it again andagain and again. And I practiced
(26:32):
something called Lectio Divina,is basically just a fancy
spiritual word for saying youmarinate over certain words,
certain passages. So I was doingthat for a lot of the passages
and it was showing me the waythat there's a template here in
the structure of the way shereaches.
(26:54):
Right? She starts off thisteenage girl with no power about
to be married off by her familyin this little red brick house,
to becoming one of the firstfemale followers of Christ and
and being given the commissionby Paul to to preach, but only
after she baptizes herself. So Ireally wanted to study that
(27:18):
Yeah. Transformation. Yeah.
Like, what and for me, becauseseven is just that's just my
number. I mean, that I justcan't I and there's like two
sevens in this book too becauseI also go through the seven
powers of Mary's gospel. The theseven stages, what was so
fascinating for me because I'msomeone who studied the Homeric
(27:41):
epics. Don't know if you Yeah,knew that about I studied them.
Kate Northrup (27:45):
I love learning new things Who about does that?
Who does that? No one.
Meggan Watterson (27:48):
But I did study them. And so there were
moments where I kept thinkingabout the differences. I was
doing
Kate Northrup (27:56):
this comparison.
Meggan Watterson (27:57):
If I was still in college I would have written
a paper about it. But I keptdoing these comparisons between
Odysseus where he starts off.What I found so striking is that
his story is one where he startsoff on an island, he's already
powerful, right? His storystarts he already has power and
(28:20):
agency. Theklas, she has nonewhen she starts.
And he goes back to his physicalhome. She starts off home and
also comes back home, but shecomes home to embodiment. Like,
she's fully she says this I amstatement to her mother, the
mother who, you know, offers toburn her at the stake. Yeah. And
(28:45):
she says this I am statementwhere for me it just felt like
there's something unique aboutthis template where it's more
about coming home to ourphysical body?
And how much more difficult isthat if your body is the one
that's considered less than?Right? There's a different
journey that has to happen.
Kate Northrup (29:05):
And Thekla lived how many years ago?
Meggan Watterson (29:08):
So her it's some scholars date her scripture
to as early as seventy AD. Soshe would have been first
century. Yeah. No. That'sconsidered
Kate Northrup (29:20):
Really? I don't
Meggan Watterson (29:21):
know. Second century? Yeah. Don't I have not.
Stop.
I hate time. I hate linear time.
Kate Northrup (29:25):
It's like so long ago.
Meggan Watterson (29:27):
So long ago.
Kate Northrup (29:29):
What what's so striking about her story
Meggan Watterson (29:35):
I
Kate Northrup (29:36):
is how deeply relevant it is today, and then
the way you wove in your ownstory, which is so brilliant,
and and I know that, you know,whatever, people think that
you're supposed to be a scholarand never put yourself in. Yes.
I'm like, that's so dumb, andalso terminally boring because
I'm so not interested in readingsomething that doesn't come from
(29:56):
a human. Like, there's no suchthing as the objective truth, so
can't we all just stoppretending Right. That we don't
all have strong opinions thatare shaped by our own reality?
Right.
Meggan Watterson (30:06):
I I think it's really important to name Yeah.
The fact that my metaphysicalbeliefs are affected by my
physical reality. Exactly. Andokay. So it's so you know that I
work at
Kate Northrup (30:20):
the intersection of our own personal worth,
money, the nervous system, andthe body. You and I ultimately,
we are so wildly different, andwe are
Meggan Watterson (30:29):
It's the same.
Kate Northrup (30:29):
Doing the exact same work. And so there was a
piece that you said here, and soI'm so struck by that journey of
coming into full embodiment in abody as the full journey home,
like the arrival, trickier,probably, you know, we would
imagine, when it's in a bodythat has not been lauded as the
(30:52):
right kind of body.
Meggan Watterson (30:53):
And And doesn't have a model And doesn't
of a spiritual Exactly.Authority that is That looks
like The same.
Kate Northrup (30:59):
Feels, you know, whatever. And so I just am so
struck by it's like, oh, wow.It's 2025, and this is freaking
relevant. So you wrote, for manyof us with trauma I'm like, oh,
that's not a funny sentence.Okay.
Hold on. Let me readjust.Adjust. Okay. Let me readjust.
Meggan Watterson (31:14):
Change
Kate Northrup (31:14):
time. For many of us with trauma, that path to
reclaiming a sense of our innateworthiness can be treacherous
and hard won. It's elusivebecause we often imagine it will
be given to us by someone else,that it will be accrued through
acts of service or throughexternal achievements, but our
worthiness in being human isdeeper and more hidden than
(31:34):
anything we can actually pointto, earn, or prove, and anything
that could, in the end, be takenfrom
Meggan Watterson (31:42):
us. Exactly.
Kate Northrup (31:43):
For you, since you became obsessed with this
scripture in 2020 when the worldstood still, now it's 2025.
You've been on quite a journey.We've all been on quite a
journey. But that piece for youwith your personal story living
in your body in this lifetime,what has changed for you as a
(32:05):
result of you journeying withher and writing this book and
being a total hermit? Like youjust went so fucking deep for
Meggan Watterson (32:14):
Full hermit.
Kate Northrup (32:15):
Five years.
Meggan Watterson (32:16):
Yeah. That's so wonderful.
Kate Northrup (32:17):
Yeah. Yeah. And how are you different now?
Meggan Watterson (32:20):
I think the way I like to describe this is
that I'm only ever more me. Soit's not so much different, it's
more being the one I've alwaysbeen. And it's just not having
to apologize or explain myself.It's just being fully who I've
(32:41):
always been with so much lesseffort. So there's that.
Kate Northrup (32:47):
No small thing.
Meggan Watterson (32:48):
The worst part though, and how that's changed
my life, is that I reallycouldn't see the way that my
attraction to my ex husband wasso tethered to my sense of self
worth. I could not see that. Andthat took some serious I mean,
(33:12):
that did take me stopping lifeand and really, really going
inward in a way where I met witha memory of my dad driving with
me drunk, which was notsomething I had ever repressed.
Yeah. It wasn't it was alwaysthere.
Kate Northrup (33:30):
Like, you knew.
Meggan Watterson (33:31):
I couldn't feel it. Right. I couldn't feel
what that did. To go throughthat, I couldn't feel it. And
finally, it was like being withTheckelo for this long, like
what she gave me was like thissense of mercy and love for
(33:54):
myself.
Like, where I was able to be inthat moment with, you know,
little nine year old me and theway that I just went silent, you
know. And I didn't want to upsethim. And but he was I mean, I'm
(34:19):
very lucky to have survived thatdrive. And I left my body in a
way it's taken me most of mylife to return. And it's like I
didn't know that I had that thatsense of a lack of self worth
(34:41):
from that moment because hecared more about drinking than
he did about my safety.
And I think because I'm soprotective and loyal, I love him
so much and he got sober. Soit's like I I didn't wanna go
back to that moment too for thatreason because that was one of
his lowest moments in life. Andso to be able to feel that
(35:08):
moment, it fundamentallyshifted, finally, my
relationship to really acceptingthe crumbs I was only ever
getting in that even at the bestmoments. It was it was not what
I who I am and and what I I am.It's it didn't match my
Kate Northrup (35:31):
Totally.
Meggan Watterson (35:32):
You know, it's just it there's so much love.
There's so much it's it's it'snot about it's not about him.
It's it's about me. And all thattime I had been waiting him to
to finally choose me. You know?
Like and I've read I've seenthose Hallmark movies. Like,
I've read those books. I knew Iwas supposed to choose me. I I
(35:53):
But it's like, how do you do it?What Okay.
So
Kate Northrup (35:58):
I I told you I didn't need your book because I
was like, well, it's not likeI'm gonna sit here quoting it.
Turns out I actually am. So youalso wrote in here, you quoted
Ruby who Oh, yeah. Juices.Juices.
Thank you. I live I in I Miami,so I wanna call her Ruby who
says. Juices. Yeah, anyway,okay, so anything that is
familiar to the brain is seen assafe. Right.
(36:20):
Even if it is harmful or notwhat we want. Our brain is
capable of learning the habit ofpain.
Meggan Watterson (36:26):
Exactly, and that's what I had done. I was
hardwired for pain. And I didn'tknow how to want more for myself
until her story. I didn't I andI think to a certain extent, we
get very comfortable. Like,that's where
Kate Northrup (36:43):
she It's starts very comfortable.
Meggan Watterson (36:44):
We she starts off in her little brick house
and like in this, you know, setcultural norm of you get married
and you go I think it's reallyhard to want more for ourselves,
you know, to to to really startto desire something new, a new
story. Because actually,
Kate Northrup (37:02):
you know, for our survival brain, wanting more is
perceived as a threat to ourliteral survival. So it makes
sense. We are wired this way,and also we can do that deeper
work of going deep within tofind the truth of who we are.
(37:22):
Now the other part of your storythat I did not know, but I
really loved reading about it,was really bold and courageous,
was about your journey ofgetting sober, sober. Yeah.
Because, you know, I've knownyou for a really freaking long I
met you the year your son wasborn, he's now nearly 16. I
(37:42):
know. I held him when he was aginormo baby.
Meggan Watterson (37:45):
I know.
Kate Northrup (37:48):
And you've never really been a drinker. That
wasn't part of my awareness ofyou. I mean, you know, red wine
here and there, but nothing.That's not a huge part of your
identity by any stretch. So I'mso curious because any time that
I talk about sobriety with ourcommunity, it's a really hot
(38:10):
topic.
Folks love learning about it.Mike and I have talked a lot
about it with his sobrietyjourney. As you know, I don't
drink, so I wanna know moreabout that and how it was
related to choosing yourself.
Meggan Watterson (38:26):
Yes. Very it was really critical. And I
really didn't want it to bebecause I don't like the hard
and fast traditional ways ofsomeone being spiritual is like,
you know, they wear white, don'tdrink, eat certain foods, like,
all of that. I I've never wantedto be someone who, like, adheres
to those types of things. So Iresisted and I resisted it for
(38:49):
so long.
I knew there was a problemthere. I actually knew way back,
like, when we were first, like,hanging out. And I would say
things actually to Gabbysometimes. And just sort of, you
know, put and it would surpriseme when I put it out there. It's
not that I was ever I never gotdrunk.
No. I never got drunk. So Ithink this is a nuanced sobriety
(39:12):
story. That's why I like it.
Kate Northrup (39:14):
Or or whatever. Any sobriety story is beautiful,
but I think it's interesting.
Meggan Watterson (39:18):
Yeah. Because I really didn't think I needed
to get sober because I was neverdrunk, but what I didn't
understand is that I had aproblem with drinking because I
was using it as a blanket. I wasusing it as a way to sort of
keep me in that place of juststaying in the pain. Like it let
(39:38):
me wallow in it. It let me sortof feel like actually what I
would hear sometimes when Iwould go, I had this tiny little
snifter.
I talk about it in the book.
Kate Northrup (39:49):
It's really
Meggan Watterson (39:50):
It was so tiny. It was so cute. It was
just a tiny little snifter.
Kate Northrup (39:53):
It's like a doll cup.
Meggan Watterson (39:55):
It was so cute. And so it never made me
feel like, oh, can't how can youhave a problem if you're like
Kate Northrup (39:59):
No. It's like me, you know, back in the day having
like like taking a knife andcutting off a piece of cake that
was like literally a half amillimeter, and then Doesn't But
by the time I had 25 of Notthose that you had.
Meggan Watterson (40:12):
No. No, I do that. I still am a lightweight.
No, but so I would have theselittle, you know Just a whiff.
Sips.
And it it definitely startedgetting more intense when I was
living in Cleveland. Right?That's where all everything bad
that's ever happened to me in mylife happened there. So it was
like returning there was reallya deep deep healing. Going back
(40:35):
and really being able to own andclaim and heal all of that.
But it was also hard. And sosometimes I would say I get to
have this. Was like because Isaw it as medicinal. It's like
no, I get to have this. I'vebeen through so much.
I've handled so much. There's somany things I do that are lady
(40:56):
boss, that are, you know Itravel by myself, I do so many
things, I'm like, I get to havethis. I get to have this. I get
to go a little numb. But it waskeeping me from that connection
to that memory.
It was keeping me fromultimately healing all the way
back and all the way through.And I knew it, actually when I
(41:18):
was doing the Lectio Divina withone of the passages, which was,
And Thekla did not turn back.Thekla did not turn back. That
is described of her sitting forthree days and three nights, The
scripture says, and Thekla didnot turn back. And that for me
lit up.
It was
Kate Northrup (41:37):
is at the beginning when she's at her
house and they keep calling toher
Meggan Watterson (41:40):
and her she won't mother turn is so pissed
because she's starting to existwith the unconditional realm.
Right? Unconditional loveaccessible within her.
Kate Northrup (41:49):
Mhmm.
Meggan Watterson (41:49):
She's not dealing with the conditional
love that they were offeringher. She was like, those were
crumbs. I'm ready for the cake.Like, I'm going inward. And so
they're all upset and trying topull her outward, but the
scripture says, Aunt Thekla didnot turn back.
And I was like, I've beenturning back periodically, you
(42:13):
know, like, anyone knowing.Yeah. We would get back together
again, never for long enoughusually to tell other people to
to others. But then also nottalking about it because I felt
ashamed. You know?
I felt like, didn't I alreadylearn this, like, 15 times?
Like, didn't I already learnthis? And how can I tell people
(42:33):
that, like, people who look upto me that I'm doing this? Like,
I'm I'm trying to make this workeven though it's shattering me
every time I try and it's endingin the exact same way. And so I
kept hearing that and Thekla didnot turn back.
So I kept asking, and this isinwardly, how do I not turn
(42:58):
back? Like how do I not? Iliterally felt, I actually felt
like I had more control over thered wine than I did over getting
back together with him. I feltpowerless. Felt out of control
and I felt powerless.
But I so for me I refer to it asgetting sober sober because it
was like I had to get rid of thethe blanket, the red wine. Like
(43:18):
I had to rip off that comforterand I had to get really naked
and I had to look that in theeye and figure out why why did I
keep choosing this? And that'swhat it took. It took really
just never. And I've, you know,I feel like since healing, you
know, maybe in some people'ssobriety journey, they would
(43:40):
feel okay at this point.
Like, it's been four years now.You know, maybe they would feel
okay with integrating somealcohol or you know? It has
never felt right for me again.And it's not a struggle, but
either is the other thing. And Ifeel like they're tethered
together.
I just That's wild. Yeah. I feelgood being sober, sober.
Kate Northrup (44:01):
Yeah. Yeah. And the pattern in your romantic
life, you said it also has notbeen a struggle.
Meggan Watterson (44:10):
Right. Oh no. I Yeah. Mean,
Kate Northrup (44:12):
That a is freaking revelation. I just
like, I don't want anyonehearing around anything that we
feel we're powerless about,whether it's overspending, some
kind of drug. Honestly,addiction to anything, right?
And you may not label it thatway, and I think we don't need
to, but things that we feelcompelled
Meggan Watterson (44:34):
around that we think like maybe
Kate Northrup (44:37):
this is going to be hard forever, and I'll have
to be in this tug of war withmyself, and it's gonna be a
fight forever. I just wantpeople to
Meggan Watterson (44:47):
hear Yes, thank you.
Kate Northrup (44:48):
Four years. It's not a struggle because you
healed all the way in and allthe way through. And that peace
that Ruby, Jesus, whatever name,it's so powerful that, you know,
I talk about this all the time,that we will go back to what it
doesn't feel good, but it feelslike home until we change the
(45:13):
thermostat setting. And changingthe thermostat setting requires
feeling a bunch of things thatwe did not previously have, the
infrastructure, the support, theemotional turgor, to feel. It's
not bad.
I don't think that emotionalavoidance or repression or
(45:33):
whatever, I don't think it'sanything to feel guilt or shame
about. It's just you have tobuild enough of a foundation to
have the ability to do that. Ilike to describe healing as
Meggan Watterson (45:43):
a nautilus for that reason, because I think
it's really important we don'tshame ourselves for not having
healed by a certain lineartimeline because that's not the
way works. The soul is in kairostime. It's not in chronological
time. And for me, it was that Ihad to become enough love that
could reach all the way backthere. Had to accrue it.
(46:06):
Yes. Yes. Exactly. So it wasthat timing, not linear time.
Yeah.
Kate Northrup (46:14):
And when you tell that story about that moment for
you with your dad, one of thethings that you do so
brilliantly, and I use you as anexample about this all the time
actually, when people are askingabout how do I write about what
happened to me without throwingthe people I love under the bus.
Right. And you do that in themost elegant, you did it in
(46:35):
Reveal, you did it in MaryMagdalene Revealed, you did it
again, and I'm like, damn, howdoes she do that? The
overflowing love you have andyour ability to take
responsibility for your own sideof the street without making
anyone wrong, but while at thesame time telling the truth,
that is some alchemy. Like, it'sincredible.
How do you do that?
Meggan Watterson (46:56):
So I owe it all to meditation. That's
meditation. That's going inward.That's And I wanted to say with
that piece that I'm so gratefulthat you brought up about, you
know, that there is a waythrough. Because I think if
there was one formula that's inthis book, it's that the only
(47:17):
way out is is within.
It's the only way out is within.And I think that's probably the
least popular formula.
Kate Northrup (47:25):
Totally.
Meggan Watterson (47:25):
I think it's I think it's what we all
Kate Northrup (47:28):
Can it be a cream?
Meggan Watterson (47:29):
Can it be anything other than that? Like,
anything other than that, youknow?
Kate Northrup (47:35):
Yes. It's so true.
Meggan Watterson (47:37):
It just is It's the last place
Kate Northrup (47:39):
we ever wanna go in. It's last place we look.
Meggan Watterson (47:42):
We look. And it's it's it's where real
transformation has to happen. Iknow. It really does. Okay, I
Kate Northrup (47:50):
have a silly story about that because I think
you're gonna like I haven't toldyou this story, don't So
remember, I don't know if I toldyou that I really messed up with
my digestion in a variety ofways, we don't need to get into
the details. And then up I got afever every month for eighteen
months.
Meggan Watterson (48:06):
Wow.
Kate Northrup (48:07):
I ended up losing my hearing. It was a whole
thing. And I finally, you know,I had gone to every single
holistic doctor, I'm looking allover the internet for who's e,
what are and then I also startedgaining weight. And I'm really
healthy, so just sudden weightgain was like, I'm not gonna buy
new pants?
Meggan Watterson (48:27):
I'm gonna buy new pants, I like
Kate Northrup (48:28):
my pants. And so all of that, eighteen months of
that, okay, know, short, I knowall the best holistic who's y,
what's I'm having sessions withthem, and I'm like, are you my
mother? Are you my know, thelittle duck, right? Gonna fix
me?
Meggan Watterson (48:45):
Who's gonna
Kate Northrup (48:47):
heal me? Nobody. I go to these people, and
they're lovely, but I'm like,you know, this is this is come
on. Really? This is child'splay, what you're giving me
right now.
So I finally I'm in a hotel roomin Orange County by myself going
to bed at When I'm on the WestCoast for a short period of
time, I stay on East Coast time,so I go to bed when the sun is
(49:07):
setting out there, so I'm bymyself, sun setting, I'm trying
to go to bed, it's like, youknow, 06:30
Meggan Watterson (49:14):
in California,
Kate Northrup (49:17):
and I go into a meditation because I'm like,
Mother effer, how can I be thissick for this long? It's
ridiculous. And I go inside, andI just asked my body, hey, what
do you need? And it was like,and I heard the word peptides.
And I was like, I don't evenknow what peptides are.
(49:38):
So I start to Google whatpeptides are. I end up taking
this course for practitioners onmicrodosing peptides. I learn
the whole thing. I get mypractitioners, I become the CEO
of my own health, hello,obviously. I know how to do
this.
And it's like one month on thisripe peptide cocktail, whatever,
(49:58):
fix it completely, and my bodygave me a word I don't even
know.
Meggan Watterson (50:02):
The body never lies. Isn't that incredible?
Body
Kate Northrup (50:05):
never It's the last place we look, And this is,
you know, and it's likeembarrassing because it's like
the last place we look even whenthis is what we freaking do.
Meggan Watterson (50:15):
I think surrender is hardwired in us to
only arrive at via exhaustion.Yeah. You
Kate Northrup (50:21):
know? I know.
Meggan Watterson (50:23):
It's like why we just don't immediately go
there. But I also thinksometimes it takes a level of
being comfortable with the factthat it's really that easier,
like it's really that easy.Actually so And that it's really
that we're that powerful. Thinkthat's hard. I think that all we
need to do is go inward foranswers that we're seeking
(50:44):
outward, you know, to find.
It's very Dorothy, wizard It'sof the freaking Red. It's
freaking Dorothy I know. Thewhole My God, it's so
Kate Northrup (50:55):
Okay, one thing we haven't talked about is that
the massive through line in thisbook, like this is a book about
worth. And at the time ofThekla's life, women were
property. And that is true insome cases today as well, like
there are places where thathasn't changed. And I was so
(51:18):
struck by the reclamation ofthat deep well of worth, and for
myself, reading the book again,I've been thinking about my next
body of work and how I'm gonnaget out into the world, and I
was feeling so and I would neverhave articulated like, oh, I'm
(51:39):
having a self worth issue,right? But I was feeling
beholden to the fancy powersthat be, you know, without
getting into the details, butlike feeling like I was waiting
for someone outside to chooseme.
Is fundamentally Such Right. Athe It's such a default. And
(52:02):
reading her story right at thattime when I was making some bold
decisions about choosing myselfwas really medicinal. I'm so
glad you wrote this book. Andyou are different.
More yourself.
Meggan Watterson (52:18):
Yeah.
Kate Northrup (52:18):
Right? Like, you are more yourself. I can I can
see it, I can feel it, and eventhe way that this particular
book, you need to share anydetails that aren't relevant or
don't feel like you want to, butcan you talk about the way that
the publishing contract evenhappened and some of the magic
in that? Because one of thethings I love about you to just
(52:40):
kind of weave this conversationhome is you do not have a
marketing bone in your body.Right.
Your business and your work hasa life of its own because it's
so potent and so needed, and theway that it's like the worth of
(53:00):
you shines through in theseworks, that you don't have to
have a campaign to get that,right? God is handling that. So
can you talk about what it waslike for you to get this book
deal and any of that feelsrelevant? It was Around the
worth piece?
Meggan Watterson (53:19):
I So because I spent so much time with Thekla
during that quiet, you know,insular time, I had this very
strong sense that, you know, forevery book, it we have to become
the woman who finishes it, youknow. And so it's when you sign
(53:44):
a contract, you're also signingup to to do the work. This is
how it's been for me. This isthe truth for me. And there was
this knowing.
I don't know how else todescribe it, just that Thekla
was gonna be at a differentpublishing house. I just always
knew that. Mhmm. And it feltmore like it was a part of the
story I was gonna have to gothrough, the experiences I was
(54:06):
gonna have to hold in terms ofmy own sense of claiming my
worth as a writer, understandingthe worth of what I've already
created, which I hadn't. Ihadn't really fully acknowledged
or understood.
And part of moving to adifferent publishing house
brought that along for me. Andthen there's just this
(54:27):
unspeakable part which isinestival and it's a part of,
you know, alignment, abundancefrom a place that can't be
described in earthly materialform, which was in the form of
my editor, Jamia, who I'd knownsince Reveal days and Red Lady
(54:48):
days, and that she was at thepublishing house that I went to.
And it it just we met at Omega,and it just all the way that it
unfolded just had that air ofmeant to be and the ease of of
that alignment that I know. Youknow, it's it's like it has a
certain tenor to But then alsothe timing of when this book
(55:12):
comes out, is really phenomenalbecause it ended up being 2025,
the summer of twenty twentyfive, which is the jubilee year
according to the Vatican. Andthis year is celebrating the
codification, the beginning ofthe process of the codification
of the New Testament when theActs of Paul and Thekla was
(55:34):
edited out.
She Woah. And I purposely, like,held to when during the editing
process, and Jamia was verysupportive of everything that I
felt really convicted about,keeping the passages of the Acts
and Palin Thekla in it. Eventhough it made it maybe more
(55:55):
spiritual or religious than itultimately is, I wanted her, her
voice, her actual scripture tobe in print.
Kate Northrup (56:05):
So it comes out. Wow.
Meggan Watterson (56:08):
This is geeky theological I am. But it's being
published the year the Vaticanis celebrating when it was
ultimately Erased. Erased.Buried. So to me, moments like
that are so profound and theymake me feel so relieved because
(56:30):
I feel so tiny.
I feel like just one little partof it is It's not just on I'm
showing up and I'm doing whatI'm meant to do but there's this
tapestry that's so much greaterthan this one little red thread
that I am. And for me it's good.
Kate Northrup (56:53):
We don't have to push to make what's meant to
happen.
Meggan Watterson (56:56):
Yes. Yes. I am You are that. I am the
lighthouse version of, you know,I mean, it's never been in me.
It just, you know, and I didthink about that though once.
I was like, why are you notambitious? Like, why do you lack
any of You are ambitious. It'sin a very different direction.
Kate Northrup (57:21):
Yeah. I would never not call you ambitious.
Really? I would never call you amarketer. Okay.
But you are freaking ambitious.Mean, are taking on Christianity
as we know it. Okay. So Hello?Alright.
That's freaking ambitious.
Meggan Watterson (57:38):
I guess guess I because that's so much who I
am, it doesn't feel ambitious.What I was gonna say is my
ambition is inward. Like, Iwanna feel love at all times in
all places. To me, that'sambitious. You know?
(57:59):
That's ambitious. You
Kate Northrup (58:01):
know? Mean, is there really anything else?
Like, I think we're gonna get tothe end and be like, oh, turns
out that was it. That was thewhole point. I love you.
Meggan Watterson (58:13):
I love you too. I'm so proud
Kate Northrup (58:15):
of you.
Meggan Watterson (58:15):
I love you.
Kate Northrup (58:16):
What if managing money felt effortless? You've
worked so hard to earn money, sowhy does it feel stressful?
Well, I wanna introduce you tosomething brand new that I've
created called the money reset.Because abundance starts in your
body, not in your bank account.This free audio experience will
(58:38):
help you rewire your nervoussystem for wealth, stop the
money in money out cycle andcreate a foundation for true
wealth, and relax into a newrelationship with money.
Plus, it comes with the fiveminute calm cash flow ritual. So
you can have financial clarityand magnetism anytime you want.
(59:03):
All you need to do to get thefree money reset is go to
katenorthrop.com/reset.
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