133: Healing the Masculine: A Conversation with Dr. Brad Jacobs on Father Wounds & Modern Medicine

Episode Transcript
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Dr. Brad Jacobs (00:00):
I came to the place of being able to say,

(00:02):
okay, this is her emotionalresponse. I don't have to be I
don't have to match it. Youknow, she slammed the doors
repeatedly, yell at me. Right?There's all this energy coming
out.
And, like, so you know, I'mdoing similar behavior. Like
Right. That's not a recipe forsuccess.

Kate Northrup (00:15):
Hi. I'm so excited to introduce you to
today's guest. His name isdoctor Brad Jacobs. And when I
read about what he specializesin, when I watched his TED Talk,
which we'll link in the shownotes, I was like, I need to
talk to this man about my daddyissues because he is an

(00:36):
incredible precision medicinedoctor. He has a really cool
clinic in Sausalito, Californiacalled Blue Wave, and he is
integrative and combines thebest of western, eastern
emotions, all sorts of things.
And he he did did this great TEDTalk about toxic masculinity and

(01:00):
really coming into balance as anintegrated, emotionally,
intelligent man. And so we gotinto so many questions about
fathers and daughters, and thenabout men and women in marriage
or long term partnership. And Iwas just really honest about

(01:23):
some of my own hang ups with mydad, some of my own hang ups
with my husband, and I kind ofjust like let Brad just stand in
and

help me out with some of those things.

So, he also talks a lot about longevity and health
span and the way in which wehave gone from having, you know,
toxic masculinity to sometimesmen over correcting and becoming
what I referred to as floppyenergetically, and and why

(01:54):
neither of those states areactually helping you out as a
man in terms of your healthspan. Now, knowing that the vast
majority of our listeners arewomen, I framed my questions
knowing that, knowing that it islikely that you will be passing
along some of this wisdom to themen you love in your life. But

(02:16):
if you are a man listening,welcome. I'm so happy you're
here and I'm so excited for youto learn from the wise, loving,
and wonderful doctor BradJacobs. Welcome to Plenty.
I'm your host Kate Northrup andtogether we are going on a
journey to help you have anincredible relationship with

(02:38):
money, time, and energy, and tohave abundance on every possible
level. Every week, we're gonnadive in with experts and
insights to help you unlock alife of plenty. Let's go fill
our cups.

[voiceover] (02:56):
Please note that the opinions and perspectives of
the guests on the Plenty podcastare not necessarily reflective
of the opinions and perspectivesof Kate Northrup or anyone who
works within the Kate Northrupbrand.

Hi. Welcome Thank you. To your home.

It's great to be here and have you in our
home.

Thank you for being on. I really appreciate
it. So I wanna start off withwhat is precision medicine?

Yeah. Yeah. So there's lots of different people
with lots of differentdefinitions. But in my
worldview, it's really bringingtogether the best of all of our
technologies and also to bringin precision medicine with
respect to traditional healingsystems. So, you know, if you
think about Chinese medicine,they put their hand on your
wrists, check your pulse,they'll check your tongue, they

(03:46):
check your abdomen evensometimes.

Mhmm.

And then they'll come up with a specific
diagnosis for you. So it'sreally individualized care. And
if you look at Western medicinetechnology, you can do genomic
testing. We can do whole bodyMRI scans. So again, it's
individualizing to you.
Yeah. And if you take amedication, how I receive that

(04:10):
medication, how I metabolize itmay be very different than how
you metabolize it. Definitely.

For sure.

Yeah.

Now when you came up in your training, what was
your original path Yeah. Withyour medical training?

Yeah. So my original medical training starts
when I was eight years old. Istarted doing martial arts when
I was eight. A friend of minepersuaded me. And I was like,
alright.
And then he quit six monthslater, and I kept going. And
that really brought me into thewhole world of Chinese medicine.

Okay.

So I didn't know I was gonna be a doctor,
frankly, but I was fascinated byhealth flourishing through the
lens of Chinese medicine andmartial arts, which I've done
all the way till now, fiftyyears I've done martial arts.
And then I went intointernational health, which then
brought me, gave me a view ofall the different healing
traditions of the world.

Okay.

And then went to medical school. And then I
came in with the lens of there'smultiple healing traditions out
there, just many ways to viewthis. Health and medicine are
about flourishing in addition tocuring diseases. Mhmm. And I
went to medical school torealize that people had a very
different point of view.

Yeah. Yeah. So you didn't so you went into
medical school with a widerlens. Yeah. And then when you
got there, you realized Yeah.
Not everyone does.

I knew going in that I was in I was a salmon
going upstream Yeah. And thatpeople are focused on disease,
food, organic matter, and drugsand surgery and procedures.

Did you do to bolster yourself in that
environment given that from dayone? Because I I speak with a
lot of doctors who are like, oh,no. I was just like going along,
and then much later, they hadthis awakening of, woah. There's
so much more going on here, butit sounds like you went in with
that. So how did you stay sane,resourced,

and

all of that during such an intense training
that didn't include your entireview?

Yeah. So I went in with the intention to change
the medical

Okay.

System. I said I was deciding between Chinese
medicine school, acupunctureschool from the background I had
Mhmm. And medicine, conventionalmedicine. And I decided, okay,
I'm gonna go through the medicalsystem. I'm going into the belly
of the beast.
Wow. And so I sort of broughtthat in, and then I trained or
practiced my martial arts, like,every day. I mean, literally, I

(06:30):
was in the hospital, the closedwings of the hospital at 3AM
when I was on call practicing.And that kept me resilient and
relatively sane.

Yeah. Yeah. As sane as one could be in medical
school.

Right.

What's your what is the martial art that you
practice?

Kung Fu. So northern style Chinese

Uh-huh.

Martial arts. Amazing. So and I've done a
range of different martial artsover the years, but that's the
one that particularly as you getolder, I'm doing more of the
internal style. So tai chi,qigong, ba gua. Which are the
internal style martial arts tokeep the energy flowing through
the system.
Mhmm. And, you know, I think ofit as blockages that happen as
we get older. Yeah. And peopleshow up with shoulder pain and

(07:10):
that's a blockage. Yeah.
Organ disease, liver problems.

Right.

And to keep that energy moving.

Speaking of energy

Yeah.

Can you talk to me a little bit about your view
of how our emotional lives andways of thinking and ways of
being in our lives and ourrelationships contribute to
those energetic blockages in ourshoulder or our gallbladder or
wherever.

Yeah. Yeah. I think of breath as the really a
beautiful barometer for howwe're doing. And if you notice
ourselves and others, peoplestop breathing. Like, they're
shallow breathing or they getheld up.
And, you know, we sit at thecomputer and our body position
is closed. And we get folk ourhead is, you know, we're

(08:00):
separated from our body. Andthen we noticed our breathing
stops. And and when thathappens, you can feel stuff
build up and accumulate and notdischarge. And I think, as we
know, the world's turning fasterand faster.
Right? There's more informationgoing at a faster speed. Like
Bob Johansson Johansson who runsInstitute for the Future for the
past forty years, he calls itVUCA, you know, v u c a,

(08:25):
increasing volatility,uncertainty, chaos, ambiguity.
He talked about it like a decadeago. And that's what's
happening.
And so for us, how do we keepthe system? I think of ourselves
as like a sponge that we collectdirt. How do you get under the
faucet and let it rinse through?

Right. So some of that dirt is chemicals. Some of
that dirt is

Information.

Information. The

type of information we're reading.

Some of it's thoughts. Some of it's what
we're eating. Some of it'swhatever. Like, just general
Yeah. Sludge.

General sludge from all different dimensions.

From all different just sludge from all
different dimensions. Totally.Ancestral sludge. Whatever it
may be. Maybe past life sludge.

Maybe past life as well. Yeah. I think the
emotional intensity of wherewe're at today is creating a
really difficult time for us.And Yes. It is.
We could talk about the factthat, you know, the soil has has
been depleted by its nutrientsand is filled with lots of
toxins and glyphosate.Glyphosate. Yep. And the
billions of pounds of glyphosatethat's in the soil and all these

(09:27):
things that are leading tomutations and poor resilience.
But we can so yes.
Yes. And more I think even morewithin our control, immediate
control at an individual levelis our own ability to manage our
own emotions Yeah. And haveagency over that. Yeah. I can't
control how my partner behaves,but I can control how I react to
how my partner Yes.
You can.

And one of the things I know you think about a
lot, specialize in, have doneyour own work around and
research around and practice islooking at toxic masculinity and
emotional intelligence and howmaybe those traditional models
that maybe you were raised with,certainly that I was raised
with, my dad was raised with,just didn't model healthy

(10:08):
behavior as men around feelings.

Right.

So you told a story in your TED talk about a
way that that was showing upwith your daughter. Do you mind
sharing that and kind of likethe before the before times?

Yeah. Yes.

When you were not not as emotionally aware maybe
in that regard.

And frankly, yeah, the more sort of the part
I'm even embarrassed about now,you know, feel shame around.
It's like, have but owning thatit's it's, you know, I did it. I
do it. I have done it. And also,yes, it was taught to me.
It was modeled. But there'sownership there too. I can't
just outsource it. And when Iwhen I was raised, I grew up

(10:52):
doing martial arts and that's avery masculine

Yeah. Kung Fu is

no joke. No joke. Right? So it's really
focused on bravado Mhmm.Courage, straight talk.
Thankfully, there was humilityin there as well, but there was
really a lot of that classic oldschool masculinity. That
combined with my father who wasvery beautiful human and also
very dominating when he gotupset. It was okay. It's like

(11:17):
the light shut. There was nodimmer switch.
And so I brought that in to meas a model and so I would, you
know, the first story franklyoccurred when I was driving down
the street and I had a road rage

Yeah.

Incident. And someone was trying to cut off a
whole bunch of people behind me.I said I'm gonna protect this
situation and got in front ofthem. They started getting
really upset with me, you know,egging me on, cussing at me. I
got out of the car and said,come on out the car, let's do
this, you know.
And, they didn't wanna get outof the car and ended up actually

(11:55):
putting this guy in a choke holdMhmm. To like stop him. And then
he then calmed down. I calmeddown. I went back in my car.
Three weeks later, I get asubpoena from the federal courts
and I had to bias my first suit,get a proper haircut, hire an
attorney. Wow. It turned out heconfabulated the whole story and

(12:16):
things were dropped but theintensity of that really shifted
me. Mhmm. But then fast forward,it didn't stick, you know.
And when it came into my innercircle, my daughter, which I
spoke about in the TED Talk, andshe was to her credit, and she's
going to become an attorney, shewants to be a social justice
activist. To her credit isextremely smart, fierce, very

(12:41):
articulate, and has her ownopinions. And so Yeah. When I
said no, it's gotta be this way,she'd say no, go left, no, I'm
going right. And I wouldn'ttolerate it.
And so I started really havingexaggerated responses to the
things, Right? Like speak of,know, the punishment far
exceeded the crime. Mhmm. And soI take her phone away for a

(13:03):
month, you know. I would raisemy voice and ultimately, her
mother called me out and said,you know, you've got some anger
issues here.
Like, you've gotta manage this,which I didn't really see. And
then my own daughter startedspeaking into it. And that
really Mhmm. You know, there's alot of shame around that Yeah.
To really speak into.

(13:24):
And what I realized was I wasfeeling emasculated. You're
right. Because I couldn'tcontrol my daughter.

Right. So you were amplifying the response.

Yeah.

Yeah. And at first, when they gave you that
feedback, were you open to it?Were you defensive?

Heck no. What was the response like? It's all
your fault. Right? It's never myfault.
Right. I was very shut downabout it and didn't really wanna
own it at all. Because a, Ididn't view myself that way. God
forbid, I act that way. Really?
That's not me. Right? I'm akind, nice person. Right. So

(14:05):
then to really see it and havemy daughter actually show it
back up and put the mirror backup.

How old was she when she was giving you that
feedback?

Yeah. She's she's about she was 12, 13.

Okay.

Pretty young. Yeah. But the you know, but a

mixture fiery time Yeah. To that transition,
11, 12 year old girls are sopowerful.

Yeah. Super powerful. And she remains
powerful. To her credit, it'sit's beautiful to witness. She's
19 now.
It but when she showed it up andand then I said, listen, I'm
gonna do better. Mhmm. And shewas like rolled her eyes in
disbelief. And and then I would,you know, I thought I was doing
better and she kept saying,rolling her eyes, rolling her

(14:46):
eyes. Wow.
But I really made consciouschange. And I came to the place
of being able to say, okay, thisis her emotional response. Mhmm.
I don't have to be I don't haveto match it. You know, she
slammed the doors repeatedly,yell at me, right?
There's all this energy comingout. And like, you know, I'm
doing similar behavior likeRight. That's not a recipe for
success.

Yeah. With anyone, but especially with a
child.

Yeah.

Yeah. Even a very mature child.

Yeah. Yeah. So I started being able to hold the
space Mhmm. And let her do whatshe needs to do. And this new
aspect of, okay, I'm gonnaactually hold the line Yeah.
But not necessarily react.

Right.

I'm gonna hold the line, but let her do what
she needs to do. Mhmm. It was areally new experience for me.
Yeah. And beautiful, actually.

And so beautiful. And like, you know, kids and I
think just the feminine ingeneral whether, you know,
craves a boundary.

And

that feeling of like, I know when my husband
holds the line with me and alsodoes not join me in my chaos,
it's annoying, but I also loveit. It makes me feel so safe and
relaxed. It's the best. So whatdid it feel like inside you as
you made that transition fromreaction, know, accelerating

(16:09):
reaction, that's not quite theword I'm looking for, but

That reactivity.

Yeah, reactivity. Yeah. Escalation is the word I
was looking for. To then holdingstill a boundary, but creating a
container of safety. What did itfeel like inside your body to do
the second part?

So it's a great question. I felt expansion. Like
abundance and expansion ratherthan constriction. Yeah. You
know?
As like as when I escalating,it's like it's the mode of fight
or flight or freeze or fawn. Andthat mode is, you know, you get
locked. You energetically getlocked, you get narrow, you get

(16:50):
narrow viewed, yourheartbreakers up, you get sweaty
Right. Your jaw clenches, allthat stuff that shows up
unconsciously and that's notwhat was showing up anymore. It
was this moment of almost like,oh, can sit back, I can allow
this to happen.
Mhmm. I can watch it, I canwitness it, I can observe it and
not be in it. Right. You know,not be in the in in the mud with

(17:12):
her. And this sense of expansionand sort of fullness, which was
really different.

Yeah. Amazing. And it changes you know, you
become the as a parent, youbecome the thermostat in that
environment as opposed to thethermometer. Yeah. Right?
Like, just reading her energy,then you become the thermostat.
She gets to meet you there

Yeah.

Which is such a gift, and I think really a gift
of parenting in general, but,like, also the masculine,
because actually mothering tendsto feel pretty masculine to me
as well just because it's, like,holding the container. Right.
Being the executive function formy children. Right?

Yeah.

Okay. So I had an experience where my dad, who is
a wonderful man, but we've,like, had our journey, he and
because you talk about thisinvitation to have kind of a 360
review and actually ask for forfeedback from the people who
love you, like honest feedback,and what a courageous
invitation. And so he had made astatement, like, if there's

(18:10):
anything that you ever wannatalk to me about, or that I
could do to make ourrelationship better, like,
please let me know. And I foundmyself, I think because of
history, because of whatever, Ifound myself not feeling like I
actually was able to do that.And so I'm wondering for most of
our listeners are women.

(18:30):
They may have a man in theirlife who they would wanna give
that feedback to, but they don'tfeel like that's actually either
he hasn't invited it, or theyfeel like maybe it won't be met
with. Like it feels scary, I'lljust be honest, it feels scary.
What would you advise as a manwho has received that and
actually had a pretty profoundtransformation? Like, what do

(18:54):
you think?

Yeah. Well, I have two comments on that. One
is, in my experience, I'veoffered that to my daughter, and
I don't get anything backeither. Okay.

So it's not just me.

So it's definitely I not just was like,
it's probably mostly youraudience as well. Yeah. And I'm
like so disappointed and and

I was so touched by the offer. Yeah. It was
really beautiful.

Yeah. Yeah. So, then I've played with trying to
offer up suggestions in realtime. Like a multiple choice.
Yeah.
And that sometimes actuallyworks and a lot of times it gets
shut down. And then the other isI offer up mine back to her
like, let me give you somefeedback. Yeah. Because I'm

(19:38):
hoping that'll fire up theengine Yeah. And get her a
little feisty that then she'lloffer me some

Okay. Some juice. That's kind of fun. Has that
worked? Yeah.
Okay.

Yeah. I you know, I have to do is they're
softballs, like, they're super,Yes. Like

Right. And it's done in total.

It's sort of a bit of modeling, and like I'm I
mean it. Let's let's go here.Mhmm. So I feel like that so
It's great. If I could reach outto your dad, I would tell him to
do that.

Okay. That's great. No. I mean, I think it's
a really brave thing, especiallyin family systems where just
telling the truth in real timehas not been the norm. It really
requires tremendous courage, andI think building up layers of
internal safety first forwhoever's gonna be the brave one
to break the pattern.

(20:22):
And so I am curious for you,how, you know, you talked about
the feeling of, oh, it feltabundant, it felt really
spacious, but what did it takefor you in terms of practices to
build up your ability to not gointo reactivity and a
sympathetic dominant responsewhere you were in fight with
your daughter?

Yeah. Thank you for asking that. That's that's
yeah. The step in between Right.

Was a

hard one was I had to practice I had to go in
with this in my mind which wasif it gets too heated, I needed
and actually I would talk aboutit in advance with Gabrielle. If
we get in a firestorm again, I'mgonna ask for a break. I'm gonna
ask to step away. Don't I stilllove you.

Yeah.

But I need the break. Yeah. You know, something
you've done. Yep. Although youprobably did fire me up.
But I'm gonna I'm gonna I need abreak. I need a pause. I need a
time out. And so that's what Iwould do. Because I wasn't able
to manage it in real time a lotat the So I had to take a break.
So I would say, I'm gonna go fora walk. I'm gonna come back and
let's retalk.

And is that what you would do? Would take a break
and walk?

Yeah. I'd go for a walk. I'd go another part
of the room, the the house.Yeah. I'd just separate the time
and distance Mhmm.
Time and space. Yeah. Thatseparation is what I needed to
then recalibrate. Mhmm. Youknow, jump and scream outside
somewhere Yeah.
Or more likely, like, do somestretching and breathing and is
actually what I would do. Yeah.And then come back in and maybe,

(21:49):
okay, let's do this afterdinner. Like, we need three
hours. Yeah.
Not necessarily always in fiveminutes. And often it would take
her longer. So I'd be readybecause I'm older. I've done my
whole life. I've practiced thisthing.
Yeah. It would take her maybeanother day. So but I said,
listen. We need to talk aboutit. Mhmm.
We need to come back to this. Solet's make a commitment. We'll

(22:09):
do that. So that we have to setI'll say all those ground rules
in advance because there's norational discussion in the heat
of it.

Yeah. Absolutely. And and so what I'm hearing you
say is you would take a break,and you would do actual
physiological things tometabolize the stress that your
body was experiencing. Yes. AndI think a lot of the mistakes
that people the the biggestmistake that many people make,
and I'm curious your thoughts onthis, is that they think that
the move is to talk themselvesdown and use their mind to

(22:44):
change their response.
And my experience is we cannottalk our bodies out of the way
they feel. So

That's right.

Do you have any like more clinical scientific
doctor evidence around that that

you could So we know when we get agitated,
whatever form that shows up ineach of us, that our heart rate
goes up, our right? Oursympathetic drive goes fully on.
Our parasympathetic drive goesturns off. And so and then those
moments, we know our rationalthinking goes down. Yeah.

(23:19):
Our reactivity goes up, andwe're acting on impulses. Mhmm.
And so we're quick to respond.So the rational mind doesn't
won't win. And what I call ittop down versus bottom up.
Mhmm. So the top down doesn'twork. You can't just it's trying
to control a wild animal. Like,how are you gonna do that?

Right. But you're not gonna tell a gorilla that's
angry like Yeah.

You're not gonna wrestle him to the ground.
Yeah. So, you needed so insteadthough, if you like all of a
sudden change the terrain aroundthe gorilla, you put beautiful
gorillas around the gorilla, youhave beautiful fauna and, you
know, luscious bananas and anice stream, they're gonna start
regulating. And so that's yourpoint, that's what you got one

(24:01):
has to go do. So that's what Iwould do.
I'd go out into nature. Yeah. Iwould start doing some
breathing. I like doing yoga. Ilisten to music.
There's so many ways to do it.Pick up the guitar, whatever it
is that soothes me I knowsoothes me from a bottom up and
bring that in from the bottomup.

How important is it to actually let that full
emotion of anger or sadness orfrustration or whatever it is
that we're feeling that we dowant to soothe, but how
important is it to actually letourselves stay with the
emotional experience as well?

Yeah. Such good questions. Yeah. So I think the
soothing is, important becausepeople get out of control and
they do things that they regret.Totally.
So so if you're in that world,which we've all been at one
point or another, we send theemail we regret, you know?

That I'm that one. That one.

Right? I will It's like, stand up and walk
away. I'm like, what?

My husband's like, babe, step away

from the computer. So you know what I do?
Someone taught me this, so Ilove it, which is I send the
email to myself. So I start withsending it to myself. So the
name sometimes you hit it bymistake, you know.
Yes. Then you hit the sendbutton, you get that feeling
it's going right back toyourself. That's really smart.
I'm gonna draft. I'm gonna

do that next time. Thank you.

So but you're right. The other parts, what I
call is mindfulness. So beingnoticing it, which is not
distraction method, which youcould argue that's a distraction
method, you're gonna go calmyourself down. Mhmm. But to
learn I think that's the nextlevel though.
So first is to learn toregulate.

Yeah.

Then the second level is then, and you can
sometimes do themsimultaneously, is to notice.
Mhmm. And that requires you tobe able to be separate from your
thoughts and feelings so thatyou go to your larger self, the
big ass larger self, your divineself, your sort of innate being,
and be able to watch yourthoughts. Yeah. Watch your

(26:05):
emotions separate from yourself.
And in that moment, then you'rethe witness and so you're no
longer attached. And that's abeautiful thing to be able to
be. And often it's great to notbe continued to be triggered
while that's happening. So stepaway is important. And to your
point, to be able to reflect andbe to drop into that and notice

(26:25):
it is a beautiful place to be.
Mhmm. And then you can notice,oh, this is actually a room.
Because often, what's happeningin the real moment is a
reflection of what's happened inthe past. Yes. It's an
amplification of something thatresonates from the past.

And I was gonna ask you, how important do you
think it is for us to know thecontent of the past thing in
order to heal in the presentmoment and and maybe interrupt
those unconscious patterns.Yeah. Do you think the content
matters?

I do at the level of not at the analytical
level Okay. Personally. So I'vetrained in something called
Hakomi psychotherapy. And in inHakomi, we sort of bring in what
was the concept of a missingexperience. So maybe as a child,
I was not recognized, you know,that I'll tell you.
So in my childhood Okay. Therewas a lot of drama in my parents

(27:16):
and so I was the one alwaystrying to calm things down. Got
it. So I would wanna try andmake everyone happy.

Mhmm.

I was the pleaser. And so there's a
missing experience there whichis a, you you can be loved for
just who you are. You don't haveto do anything. Right. You can
be loved for who are, which I'mstill working on.
And, so if I know that generalexperience and to be able to
then see, oh, I'm feeling I'mnot being seen, I'm feeling I

(27:42):
have to show off here becauseI'm not so that they love me, I
have to please them so that theylove me. I think in that point,
that's how it matters, but notso much the exact mechanism

Great.

By which it happened.

Okay. Cool. Yeah. I think there's something
freeing about that because assomeone who's been in and out of
therapy in a variety of formats,you know, for many, many years,
Sometimes the, like, thinkingabout it and talking about it,
I'm like, bleh. Like, I've toldthis story.
I've thought about this story.You know, and and and there can

(28:13):
be a cool experience ofdigesting it and moving on from
the story, and I love how you'rebringing in this piece of
providing that missingexperience. Can you tell me more
about Hakomi?

Hakomi. Yeah. A k o m I.

Okay.

Hakomi Hakomi Institute. So it was created in,
the late seventies by a guynamed Ron Kurz, and it's a Hopi
word. It was take used or takenby approval from the Mhmm. That,
lineage. And what it means isstanding in multiple realms.
So so really being able towitness yourself and your

(28:49):
evolution of yourself. And it'san assisted self study. So it's
a self study, you know, that wedo for ourself, but it's
assisted. So I'm here as atherapist. And what I love about
it is it's not talk therapy.
Yeah. It allows us to be like,okay, you come in, you're
downloading your story, and thenwe have a theme. You know, I got
an argument with my husbandtoday and about the kids because

(29:13):
he's always more lenient. Andthen we say, great. Let's just
drop in and be mindful.
Close your eyes. Use yourbreath. Just notice in your body
where that's showing up. So it'sa somatic best base, somatic
based mindfulness orientedpsychotherapy. And you might
say, what's in my throat?
Yeah. You know, there's atension in my throat. And from
that, it might be the quality ofthat. And next thing you know,

(29:35):
it might show up as an oldmemory. Right.
When I was a kid, I always triedto speak at the dinner table and
I was shut down by my siblingsor whatever the story might be.
And so there's theamplification. Yeah. Like, and
you didn't even realize itconsciously. That's the
beautiful stuff for me becauseit turns off the thinking brain,
which is thought about a Yeah.
Thousand times and has told thestory to yourself a thousand
times.

Yeah. Maybe even sort of changed the story
somewhere along. Like, who evenknows what happened?

And exactly. And also, puts that rut in your
brain even more and more, soit's more fixed. I think it
reinforces the story.

It does. I mean, I think we have the data to
prove that like those neuralpatterns get myelinated, and
then we're like just likethickening and deepening and
Right. Okay. So what are some ofyour favorite ways to do that
transformation work to pop usout of those old patterns?

(30:28):
Because it can really feelinsurmountable sometimes when
it's like, I've been this wayfor decades, and maybe a lot of
folks don't have examples ofpeople doing transformation work
in their immediate family,certainly, and sometimes not in
their communities.
There's so much like, well, thisjust is the way it is. I just am

(30:49):
the way

I am. That's Which

you and I both know is completely not true, but
it feels that way.

It does.

And so I know you said you like to work with peak
experiences to create somewhatdramatic change, and I'd love to
hear more about that.

Dr. Brad Jacobs: Transformation's hard. Inertia (31:03):
undefined
is Maybe maybe that's the titleof this episode.
Transformation's hard. I thinkthere's it's a it's so much of
our life is a perspective. Ifeel like so much of how we walk
through the world is held inperspective because when you

(31:25):
hold another perspective on it,you have a completely different
point of view and you never sawit that way.
And then someone shows it toyou, you're like, oh my god. And
it's like those paintings thatyou can look at, and they're all
of a sudden, it's a it's a womanone direction, and it's a, you
know, dinosaur anotherdirection. Totally. What? And
once you see it, you can flipback and forth, and and all of a
sudden, you realize, wow, howmuch of my life is illusion.

(31:47):
Right? And so I do find thatpeak experience, which I define
as really the ability to get outof the forest and be above the
forest, to be out of the treesand above looking down at the
forest to get perspective.That's a peak experience. And
people do it all sorts sorts ofways. You can be extreme and go

(32:08):
water fasting for a month or ona hunger strike, or you could go
in the wilderness for weeks at atime.
You can go to a monastery orparticipate in a church or
whatever it might be. And peopledo psychedelic medicine as well.
So there's there's differentrituals. There's different ways
to get there. Hakomi is a waythat we talked about
psychotherapy is a way to usethe non cognitive mind to start

(32:31):
to see things and to see theseunderlying threads of what I
describe as like you're in theocean and there's a kelp.
There's 18 different kelp headsbobbing in the water. And
they're actually tied to fourdifferent kelp bottoms down
below. Right? So and if you canget to the bottoms, you can do
some big change.

Yeah.

And that's the goal. And that often requires
perspective. You're on thesurface, and all of a sudden you
realize, oh, actually there'slife below the surface of the
ocean. Yeah. So using peakexperience as a vehicle for
transformation, one is to beable to think that it's
possible.
And I think there's aninitiation phase. I think of it
as four parts. There'sinitiation, there's the actual

(33:09):
peak experience, there's theinsights you get, and then
there's the habituation, toactually make it real in your
life. Yeah. So the first part isthis initiation, which requires
some prep and I feel likerequires really looking at your
health and noticing all thethings we talked about earlier.
So what is my microbiome like?What is my daily practice of

(33:31):
self care like? Do I have moldand Lyme, chronic Lyme disease?
Do I have other problems in mysystem? Do I have food
intolerances?
How is my sleep? How can we getthose all clear so that we can
prepare ourselves to be moreresilient, have more energy? So
that's step one. Great. Steptwo, we talk about different
peaks experience.
Different peak experiences couldbe psychedelic medicine, it
could be prayer, it could be youand I are gonna do a one month

(33:54):
cleanse, and we're gonna dryJanuary. Mhmm. Right? Gluten
free, no alcohol. And thenideally, we get then some
insights.
What unfortunately happensparticularly with psychedelic
medicine, people that use it ina way that's even with intention
and ritual behind it, is theyhave these amazing insights and

(34:15):
then they fade. And there's thisneuroplasticity that happens
that can last one day to thirtydays where you're remapping the
mind, and these new neuralconnections actually create new
permanent connections. Yeah. Wetalked about sort of those old
patterns. We can create newpatterns.
And then we can see, oh my god.There is a different lens. And
then then the question is how doyou actually make it long

(34:37):
lasting? How do you actuallymake it part of your new world
order?

How do you?

Yeah. So like you said, unique community.
Yeah. So, you know, there's lotsof data showing that if you live
with if your community friendsare all thin people, you're more
likely to become more thin. Ifthey're with people that are
overweight, people that smoke,people that drink, you do what
your community does.
So part of the challenge is howdo you create new community? And

(35:07):
does that mean I have to give upmy friends or the friends that
will do some of this with you?Yeah. So community's a big
piece. I think doing havingsomeone that's even a sponsor, a
single person that's a sponsoris really helpful.
Journaling is really helpful.Setting goals and making them
public, really helpful. And thensetting yourself up like, okay,

(35:28):
I know I'm gonna fall down. Likethe old there's a Chinese
proverb, I may fall down seventimes but I stand up eight. So I
know I'm gonna fall down andwhen I do, I'm gonna do this.
Or when I achieve thismilestone, I've lost 10 pounds.
When hit when they lose 10pounds, I'm gonna treat myself
to a massage, you know? Thingslike that really can support

(35:50):
that.

Mhmm. Amazing. And what about like, my
communities and folks, you know,I've been around this world for
a very long time, and what Ihave found is less of like, oh,
I'm not gonna do thetransformational work and more
and, of course, I see thispattern in myself as well, which

(36:11):
is why I'm mentioning it, moreof like, I'll do this thing,
then I'll do this thing, and youand I share the joy of being an
Enneagram seven, and then I'lldo this thing, and then I'll do
this thing, and then I'll dothis thing. And so it's like one
peak experience to the next, andI see that sometimes in the
psychedelic world, sometimes inthe all sorts of things. It

(36:34):
becomes less available havingyoung children, which has
actually been so good for mytransformation and healing.
It's just like, no, just gottastay here and

wash the dishes. That's right. But

what do you think about that, and how can we can
we essentially find that majestyand those peak experiences also
in the mundane in between? Mhmm.

So there's a lot in that question. So for all
the sevens out there like us,the practice of saying no, You
know? Yeah. And the way Ilearned this is if it's not a
resounding yes, it's a no. Yeah.
And that's that's been good forme. Yeah. Because there's so
much like, yeah, that soundsgood. Like, everything sounds

(37:21):
good. Everything sounds Andthat's maybe, which will become
a yes.
I'm like, hard maybe. So thatwas been helpful.

Yeah. That's so

To your point of like being not having choice,
like when you have young kids,you have no choice. You don't
have the time. Yeah. And so theother piece is back to
accountability. Like, if youhave someone to do it with that
will hold you accountable Yeah.
Even if they're not doing it, Ithink really matters a lot. And
then I'm a big fan ofjournaling. So if you come up
with like, these are the goalsI'm gonna do and this may sound

(37:53):
like too long term, but at theNew Year, every year, I write
down the top five things thatI'm hoping for that year. And I
have to admit, so meditation andplaying guitar had been on there
for like a decade. Yeah.
You know? I do my martial arts,I do my yoga, sitting
meditation, hard for me. Movingmeditation, yoga martial arts,
I'm all in. Yeah. And justseeing that enough times you

(38:17):
finally make make the shift.
So I would say, and then back toyour point, the shiny object, is
to really try and find one thingthat you're gonna stick with for
the month and give yourself atimeline.

Yeah. Right. It's that's so straightforward. It's
so simple. What's your thingright now?

Yeah. Great question. My thing right now is
getting up early

Okay.

To actually exercise.

Great. First thing.

First thing.

And how what what is early for you?

For me, early is 06:30.

Okay. Yeah. Early is 06:30.

Because I prefer to,

like Which is right at sunrise right now in
these days. Absolutely Yeah.Stunning.

Yeah.

I mean, what a reward

Yeah.

For getting up at that time.

Yeah. And I know that, I think I it was
actually, I think Mel Robbinsrecently was talking about that.
She was walking, she's like, Iknow I don't like this, but I'm
so glad that I'm finally here.Yeah. And that's the truth.
And and I for me, it's about youyou gotta decide in advance.
It's like we're talking aboutwhen you're in this feisty
emotional dynamic, you have tomake a decision before you walk
in Mhmm. How you're gonnabehave. Mhmm. If you're an

(39:16):
alcoholic and you you have todecide you're not drinking today
before you walk anywhere nearanyone that has a cocktail or
you're gonna drink.

And you kinda gotta decide in the morning
because by the end of the day,you've lost all your decision
power

Right. For the most part. So you gotta and I
say you gotta decide the nightbefore.

Yeah. Smart.

So like, lay out

your workout decide like at 06:30AM I getting
up Right. Better or

So the alarm gets up, you have no choice.

That's it. Okay. Circling back to masculinity.
Something I've noticed is thatthere are men who are doing
amazing work on their emotionallandscapes and healing, and it's
like such beautiful work. Andthen there can be a tendency to

(40:01):
then get floppy energetically.
Energetically, I don't know ifyou know what I'm talking about,
and it's something I've talkedabout with my girlfriends a lot
where it's like and, you know,excuse me if I'm oversimplifying
and using stereotypes, but thereis like this, like, you know, as
women, we want men who arereally in a strong masculine,

(40:23):
like when I said about holdingthat boundary and being like,
I'm not joining you in yourdrama. I'll be over here loving
you from over here. Right?Versus like there can be almost
a collapse of like anovercorrection. Do you see that?
What do you think that's about,and how can, again, mostly
mostly women are listening tothis, but like how can we

(40:47):
support our men if we arepartnered with them, or if we're
raising them, or just our dads,or our brothers, whoever, how
can we best support them? Andthere's a second part of this
question, which is not reallythe same question, but I'm gonna
ask it, and I'll trust you to gowith it, which is that my
husband Mike is like, you wantme to be vulnerable, and you
want me to be in, you know, tellme how you feel, I feel, not

(41:11):
tell me how you feel, but thenwhen I do, it freaks you out,
and it makes you feel unsafe.And I'm like, shit. That's true.
So I just threw a lot at you,but I just kinda wanna know what
do you think?

Yeah. It's a messy It's messy. Beautiful
swamp. Yeah. You know, I think,so I've lived this.
So the part that part two of thestory of so toxic masculinity,
there I am trying to controlwhat's not controllable. Yeah.
Part two is, okay. Let me turnthat particularly after the road
rage story. Yeah.

(41:45):
I was like, okay. I'm going tobe a caring, soft, accommodating
person. Right. And I married awoman, and we were married for
twenty years, and I played inthat role.

Yeah. Accommodating.

Yeah. I will say, like, she may not have
viewed it that way, but I endedup, which is part of the
interesting match that I chose,and I ended up, you know, okay.
Sure. Okay. Yes.
I have very few preferences. I'mhappy. Because the truth is, and
it's true, you put me in anysituation, I'm happy. I'll be
happy. I lived in Africa for ayear.

(42:22):
Put me anywhere. I'm good. Andit's part of how I was raised.
Right? I'll please.
Totally. And so so that floppyguy, that was me. And I would
just not really stand up andspeak my truth and be authentic.
And I'd be emotionally wideopen, but not really speak my
truth, I'm emotionally availablefor you to be there and let you

(42:42):
cry on my shoulder. I may besoft and floppy while you're
crying on my shoulder, but andthen I reached a point where I
realized I'm getting older andthis is not the life I wanna be
living.
I like I've lost my way. Yeah.And so that required me to enter
part three of my life, whichreally is about both. How can

(43:03):
you hold both? Yes.
How can I be emotionallyavailable and vulnerable and
also be strong? Which is exactlywhat you're talking about that
you do with with your husband.And and it's not always clean
No. But it allows us for thisbeautiful polarity where you can
it allows your feminine toreally shine and his masculine
to really show up. Yeah.
Because you you're bothembodying both parts, But, you

(43:24):
know, I can sit in my masculineand my strength. I can be
authentic. I can voice my truth.You may not love it. Right.
And I'm here to hear that outalso, and it's not gonna be fun
necessarily. Right. But I'm herefor that. And it's a beautiful
balance where you can beresilient, authentic,
emotionally available Mhmm. Andstrong.

Something that comes up for a lot of women in
our community is what if I'mmarried to a man who really
isn't into personal growth work,who doesn't really have a
spiritual life, who's becausethe work that I lead is it goes
deep, you know? On the outside,it's about money, but like
ultimately, it's really notabout money.

Right. And

we're going really deep around some stuff.
And so women are like, I reallywanna do this. I wanna lean into
this. But what do I do if mypartner's not on board? Yeah.
And I just I don't know what totell them. Yeah. Because I'm,
like, married to somebody who'stotally on board. Yeah. Not a
100% of the time, which ishealthy and normal and sexy,
actually, but, like, what do yousay in that situation?

Well, first of all, money is all about emotion.
Right?

A 100%.

We attribute, like, can you afford the house?
Well, I mean, at one level, it'sa no. But another level, it's
what's emotionally what'simportant to you?

Exactly.

What is important to you? Yeah. Can you
buy those rings, you know, thatwith jewelry? What's important
to you? It's so yes.
So I think for three things tothink about when talking to men
that are shut down, emotionallyshut down Yeah. Is one is they
don't feel safe. Mhmm. Andthey're wrapped around shame.
Mhmm.
So there's you know, becausethey've been shamed. Yes.

(44:58):
They're at some point in theirlife, they were emotionally
available, and they're ashamedfor it.

Totally. Because no little boy is not emotionally
available. Tiny little boys arejust right there.

Right. But at one point, you're made fun of
when you're crying.

I know. So brutal.

Yeah. So to be able to feel safe and, you know,
what I hear from my partner is,you know, I wanna love all you
including the dark spots,including some of the broken
pieces. Like, I'm here for allof it. Mhmm. And that for a guy,
it's like, well, at one point,most guys were like, dude,

(45:32):
whatever.
What are you talking about? Butthe truth is if you're willing
to go there Yeah. You know thatthere's some truth to what
they're saying. So that would bethat's great. The second is
actually showing up and beingpresent, which is really hard
for us in this day and age toactually be present because
we're multitasking.
We're managing the kitchen, thekids, whatever's coming in The

money, the career.

So that's the second. And the third is date
night. I feel like, you know,having a date night, planning
once a week date night if youcan do that, really is a time
where you can have qualityconversation where the guard
will come down. Do you have

any suggestions for, great questions to bring
that out when if folks arefeeling like they're out, right?
They got a babysitter, no kids,right? But it's still like
surface. What are some of yourfavorite questions to get in

(46:37):
there and go deeper, even in arelationship that's like so
beautiful and also relativelynew, and I'm sure you're going
below the surface all the time.But Mhmm.
You seem like a guy who asksgood good questions.

Yeah. On a good day. The, well, first, I have to
tout a friend's book. It'scalled eight dates

Oh. Great.

By the Gottmans and Yeah.

Abrams I've heard of the Gottman Institute.

Yeah. So Doug and Rachel Abrams did it with
Gottmans Great. Called eightdates. Super digestible.

Oh, I love that.

And you go on eight dates and each one's a
different topic. Cool. That's agreat one. And I think starting
like with some softballs isgreat, right, which is, you
know, what is the what are thehighlights of your week? Yeah.
What are the things that weresort of, like, super exciting
for you? And then the second oneis, what were the toughest parts

(47:26):
of your week? Mhmm. I think thatprovides a little bit of a
window because it forces the guyto to acknowledge that there may
have been some things thatweren't so great. Yeah.
So that's that's, I would say,starting there.

Yeah. Those are great.

Yeah.

Super doable.

I think the next level is really about
sometimes you can get into itaround planning. So, you know
Yeah.

Totally. Yeah. Right. So You can bring
logistics to date night.

Right. So and I think you wanna avoid that.
Totally. But you can go intomore like larger view of like,
what do we wanna do this year?

Yeah. Like big picture. Yeah. More Yeah.
Dreaming.

Yeah.

Yeah. Dreaming, I find very sexy, obviously, as a
seven.

Exactly. Like, let's vision all day long.

Yeah. Amazing.

And then then the follow-up to that again is
similar was, okay, so what aresome of the challenges that may
show up for us in doing this?That might show up for you in
doing this?

That's great.

And so it'll allow the guy to start to tap
into some it provides theopportunity for them. And maybe
the woman who can see some ofthe things that the guy's not
saying Yeah. Which often happensYeah. Can throw something up
like, oh, what about this? Mightthis become an obstacle for us
even though it's really aboutthem?
Know? Subtle. Subtle. Yeah. Ilove We miss stuff all the time,

(48:45):
thus guys.
We're very primal. That's sogood. It's very limited, but we
can understand.

But I think that that's so helpful, and I think
sometimes that, you know,because I'm seeing 35,000,000
different layers of reality atall times, and my husband is a,
a super direct man, and thenalso he's just more
straightforward, right? So outof all the straightforward
people, he's also extra direct,and so I find it very relaxing

(49:11):
to remember that he's notthinking about 35 layers of
reality at all times, and he'sactually just really there. It's
lovely. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. So it's like what abenefit.

Yeah. And we don't have the multidimensional
perceptive organs in our body.Like, we can't see all the
fidelity that women see. Vastmajority of men at least. We're
we're sort of we can handlethree or four channels at a
time, and women frankly canhandle like 30 at a And that's a
beautiful thing, and it createschaos all

the It same really does. I it's yes. I know.
It's really a lot.

Yeah. So sometimes the guys need to be
directly served up the ball infront of their lens, and they're
like, oh, I didn't even seethat. Yes. Thank you so much.

Right. And to not make it a thing, to not be like,
oh, that means he's notperceptive, or he's not
listening to me, this that andthe other. It's like, no. Yeah.
No.
That's probably not happening ifyou have a wonderful, loving
partner.

That's right.

This has been great. Thank you for coming

Yeah.

To your house It's on my show. I just love
getting to know you.

Yeah. I really appreciate our conversation.

And so if people wanna learn more, connect with
you, learn more about yourprecision medicine work Yeah.
Learn more about your Hakomi.Hakomi? Yeah. And and all the
things you're doing withlongevity and masculinity, all
of it.
Where where can

these go? Yeah. Come to Instagram. Great. I've
got a presence on Instagram.
And, also, there's someprotocols on my website if
they're interested, which is,doctorbradjacobs.com about
behavior change we talked aboutLove it. Health health span
protocols that Sarah and I didtogether Cool. And six pillars
healthy living assessment. Soall that's available. So

yeah. And is it doctor Brad Jacobs m d or not
no. On Instagram?

It's Doctor Brad Jacobs. It's Brad Jacobs m
d.

On Instagram. On Instagram. But your website is
doctor Brad Jacobs?

That's right.

Okay. Got it. Thank you. We'll put it all in
the show notes.

Yeah. It's great.

Thank you.

Yeah. Thanks for asking. It's great great
conversations.

Subscribe, leave a rating, leave a review. That's
one of the best ways that youcan ensure to spread the
abundance of plenty with others.You can even text it to a friend
and tell them to listen in. Andif you want even more support to
expand your abundance, head overto
katenorthrup.com/breakthroughswhere you can grab my free money

(51:39):
breakthrough guide that detailsthe biggest money breakthroughs
from some of the top earningwomen I know, plus a mini lesson
accompanying it with my ownbiggest money breakthroughs and
a nervous system healing toolfor you to expand your
abundance. Again, that's over atkatenorthward.com/breakthroughs.

(52:02):
See you next time.

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