May 21, 2024 • 48 mins
This episode of the Game Changers was previously released on June 15, 2021.
Dr Pippa Grange is a highly sought-after, influential sports psychologist and a culture coach working across elite sports and business internationally.
In this episode, Pippa talks about family turmoil growing up, her formative years travelling and working in Australia, her first reaction to the job offer with England Football and the media spotlight she faced in the aftermath of the 2017 World Cup.
Within football, Pippa has worked to change the culture of a sport historically steeped in bravado and hyper-masculinity. She has recently written an incredible book, "Fear Less: How to Win at Life without Losing Yourself" to address fear, understanding the role it plays in your life and how to combat it.
Thank you to Sport England who support The Game Changers Podcast with a National Lottery award.
Find out more about The Game Changers podcast here: https://www.fearlesswomen.co.uk/thegamechangers
Hosted by Sue Anstiss
Produced by Sam Walker, What Goes On Media
A Fearless Women production
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Sue Anstiss (00:06):
Hello and welcome to the Game Changers, the
podcast where you'll hear fromextraordinary, trailblazing
women in sport.
I'm your host, sue Anstiss, andI'd like to start by thanking
Barclays for their ongoingsupport of the Game Changers.
There are a few brands acrossthe world who are doing more for
(00:26):
women's sport.
Right now.
Barclay is a title sponsor ofthe Women's Super League and
they also back the FA in thefantastic work it does to ensure
that every school girl acrossthe country will have the chance
to play football by 2024.
I'm really excited to introducemy guest today, Dr Pippa Grange.
(00:46):
Pippa is an influential sportspsychologist and a culture coach
working across elite sports andbusiness internationally.
She believes relationships areat the heart of everything and
the antidote to fear.
As head of people and teamDevelopment at the Football
Association, Pippa workedclosely with the England team
(01:08):
for the World Cup in 2018.
And, although she's very humblein accepting any praise, her
presence was clearlytransformational in changing the
culture of the team and helpingthe players to build their
confidence.
Pippa is now part of a seniorleadership team for the global
Right to Dream group, working oncultural strategy.
(01:28):
Pippa's worked across the worldin a range of sports, from
swimming and rugby through toAustralian rules, football and
soccer.
She's also the author of anextraordinary book that I loved
Fear Less how to Win at LifeWithout Losing Yourself.
I had heard that Pippa hadfaced some real challenges
growing up, so I asked her totell me about life at home.
Pippa Grange (01:57):
Well, I grew up in Yorkshire in a place called
Harrogate in North Yorkshire andmy early childhood was awesome,
amazing.
You know I had a really closeloving relationship with my mum
and my nan especially.
Mum was a single mum.
When she had me she was 19.
You know, I remember that veryfondly.
She got married when I was five, subsequently had three
brothers and sisters.
(02:17):
That sort of early years up tobeing 12 or so were really nice,
like a regular Englishchildhood.
I look back fondly.
But things disintegrated.
My stepfather was an alcoholicand their marriage disintegrated
and it was really a struggle.
She was a single mom with fourkids, no resources, working all
(02:40):
the time.
I was a kind of a pseudo parentfrom the age of 12 for my
siblings.
Where I look back now, I hadreally a whole heap of
responsibility that a teenagerwouldn't normally have and she
got into a subsequentrelationship later probably she
would reflect, I think, when shewas, you know, already
(03:03):
overwhelmed and at the end of atether and she got into a
relationship which was violentand that unraveled everything
for us.
So, you know, through that sortof period in the lead up to me
being 16, she was, you know, inthis violent relationship and he
lived in the home with us andsort of any person who's grown
(03:25):
up with violence in the home andwhere there's been alcoholism
and you know the layers oftrauma that that lays down for a
young person and in fact forthe mum, the parent.
You know it's very complexstuff.
But what you feel as a teenageris angry and abandoned and
confused.
(03:45):
And you know, I think whathappened for me at that point
was I just became fierce andbold, but in a way that was
about rejecting the status quoand being sort of determined to
forge my own path and I was sortof generally annoyed with life,
you know, and it served as areasonable motivator for
(04:07):
survival at that point of time.
But you know I've learnedsubsequently that that's not the
best place to place that sortof energy.
It was a mess and I left homeat 16, couch surfed for a bit,
was sort of officially homelessfor a little bit, and I thought,
well, this isn't going to workout.
Officially homeless for alittle bit and I thought, well,
this isn't going to work out.
So I always had some kind ofpush in me, some sort of really
(04:29):
resistance to getting stuck, Ithink, which maybe that came
from the kind of childhood I'dhad Found a bedsit eventually
and I had five jobs, onefull-time and four part-time
jobs.
That kind of went from 6am tillmidnight.
Just, I think, with adetermination that this wasn't
going to be the way it was.
(04:50):
Even though I had no idea ofdirection, something in me
always was pulled back to theeducation.
I'm a real natural learner, Iam curious as a human being and
I was pulled back to educationand I went to college in York,
no idea what I wanted to do, butI'd gone and done a BTEC in
leisure or something which wasprobably about the easiest
(05:12):
option for me in front of me atthat point in time and I didn't
have a sense of myself forwhether I was really capable or
intelligent at much.
I just felt this sort of fireof emotion in me and
determination to move.
But in that course I met abrilliant teacher who was a
really interesting woman and sheconvinced me over the course of
(05:34):
a couple of years that I wassmart and that I could
definitely go to university andthat was a radical idea for me.
It's like what you know, as ifnobody in my family had ever
been to university and it justwasn't anything I'd thought
about, but I got excited by it.
She helped me apply to variousuniversities and Loughborough
accepted me and it was, like youknow, the world had opened up.
(05:57):
I thought that I thought thatarrived at that point.
Then I started that journey atLoughborough University where
you know you're living living inresidences and I was completely
immersed in different kinds ofpeople than I'd ever met, with
different views about how lifemight work out.
I really found some anchors.
(06:21):
I found basketball, which Iplayed there.
I found study, which I reallyenjoyed, and I found a bunch of
mates that you know were andstill are anchors for me through
that journey and I guess Istarted to grow up about that
time, but you know, long journeyfrom there to fully growing up,
I think.
Sue Anstiss (06:42):
Yeah, that's amazing, isn't it?
And I guess, to get touniversity from, uh, as you say,
that kind of BTEC approach andinto and somewhere like
Loughborough I'm obviously agraduate myself, so a massive
fan of I should ask you, whathall were you in?
Actually, what hall were you in, um, evelyn Richards?
Oh yeah, I was a Faraday girl,but that's amazing that, I guess
, that transition then and intosports.
So how did you end up then from, actually, what did you study
(07:05):
at Loughborough?
Pippa Grange (07:05):
and then how did you end up, I guess, moving on
into getting out to Australia,what was that, that process, um,
I studied, uh, sports science,which I had no idea what it was
when I went um, but it soundedreally interesting sports
science and social science, withan emphasis on the psychology.
So I did a joint honours um andyou know I think back to that
(07:25):
now, given that I had no ideareally that the step into that
was pretty over-optimistic forme, unfortunately.
You know I was well suited toit.
But you know I really like thatblend of the sport science and
the social science because I'vealways been interested in what
sport does for us and who we arewhile we're in it.
(07:46):
So it really worked nicely, andthat was my first taste of
sports psychology too.
So I did that.
I graduated and did theobligatory year travel and I was
going with a girlfriend who Iplayed basketball with and she
couldn't go because her fatherwas retrenched and so she had to
pull out.
And so I had this choice am Igoing on my own or am I not
(08:08):
going?
And so I went on my own.
But that was really formativeto travel on your own and be
terrified half the time andreally find a different view of
the world in other places aswell.
So when I came back I ended upworking in a basketball netball
volleyball centre that was acommercial venture up in
(08:29):
Reddishness, stockport.
Oh, wow, yeah, that a basketballfriend had put me in touch with
the opportunity there and youknow I was the person who was
charged with filling the centrewith people charged with filling
the centre with people.
So it's kind of like a, youknow, a sport development role
(08:51):
programme role, first gig aftertravelling, and it was fun and
it was an Australian company.
And after about a year therewas an opportunity to go and do
the same thing in Adelaide inAustralia, with a new centre
that was opening and I was like,yes, please.
So that's how I ended up inAustralia with a new centre that
was opening and I was like, yes, please.
So that's how I ended up inAustralia.
And then, you know, one yearled to another and another and
then I built a life there and,you know, picked up some more
(09:15):
study and and sort of found myway into sports psychology and
the doctoral studies, eventuallyin Melbourne.
So so, yeah, that was my entrypoint to Australia.
Sue Anstiss (09:26):
Excellent, and I'd like to talk to you a little bit
about that first role ofworking with football players in
Aussie rules, I guessAustralian men from the outset,
especially Aussie rules playersnot well known for talking about
feelings and perhaps showingvulnerable sides.
So how do you even begin tochange the culture of a sport
that's perhaps founded almost onthat hyper slightly unhealthy
(09:49):
but hyper masculinity?
So what was your process inworking in that environment?
Pippa Grange (09:55):
Yeah, I mean there was sort of a couple of threads
to it.
The first job I had in footballwas with the AFL Players
Association, so it was kind ofthe organisation that was known
as the support structure forplayers and for their off-field
life, for the conditions oftheir employment but also for
their off-field life.
So you know we tackled thingslike depression, drug policy and
(10:20):
what people understood aboutaddiction.
We tackled things likewell-being in the sport and
transitions and and that kind ofthing.
So it was a great position tostand in front of a group of
Aussie Rules players and talkbecause it was something that
was about their future, theirwell-being, what was
advantageous for them.
So I think it was easy becauseI was players association, yeah.
(10:45):
But you know you would walk intoa room of 40 something guys
with arms folded looking at youlike what is she talking about?
Many times.
But I think I had convictionabout what I was talking about.
And the other thing I know forsure working with many, many
young male athletes over time isthat the way they are in the
room talking one-on-one is verydifferent to the way they are in
(11:06):
the group and the locker room,as they say.
So I always found that whenthey got through the door and
you had a very human, trustingconversation with them, that
they didn't bring bravado andmachismo and all the rest that
they wanted to talk about stuff.
They might not show thatpublicly.
That took much longer to breakdown some of those, um, hyper
(11:28):
masculine stereotypes.
But you know the truth of thematter is especially around
mental health that people arehurting.
So we use the angle often ofwhat would you want this to be
for your mate who's sitting nextto you?
If you don't feel comfortabletalking about it yourself, can
you talk about it for him?
Yeah, yeah.
And so, because there's a verystrong sort of sense of mateship
(11:50):
and you know teamship amongAustralian teams I think
probably true of all teams.
So you know that was the anglein, and actually I, you know,
with the exception of a fewrules, I always felt quite well
respected and regarded in thoseenvironments with the players.
(12:10):
I've had my experiences withthe institutions and you know
the organizations that have beenmore ostracizing or lonelier as
a woman, lonelier as a woman,but generally the machismo among
the players.
You know they're young peoplewith really solid intentions
(12:30):
most of the time and notnecessarily the tools to
communicate.
So once you get under that andyou stay confident, I think it
gives them an opportunity to bewho they actually are.
Sue Anstiss (12:40):
Yeah, it's fascinating, isn't it?
I know when we say the name, drPippa Grange, many people think
of you as the person that camein and transformed the attitude
of the England football team andhelped them to eventually win
that penalty shootouts.
But you didn't bite their handsoff at the offer of a role or
the first approach.
Can you tell us a little bitabout that and why that was
(13:02):
really?
Pippa Grange (13:07):
a little bit about that and why that was really
Well.
I was in LA at the time, youknow, as I built my own business
, I worked with sports clientsand business clients and one of
my business clients had asked meto come work internally in
their organization for a coupleof years which ended up being
three years to help them buildpeople and culture work you know
, bring the psychology to thepeople and culture work, which
was fun.
And I ended up in LA doing that.
(13:27):
So I was kind of in that and Iwas starting to get a bit itchy
about well, what's next?
You know, and missing that.
You know it's deeply intensivein sort of corporate life and
businesses different spot and Iwas thinking I do miss it a bit.
But at the same time I feltquite relieved to be out of it
for a minute because it's sportsintense too.
And I had a call from DaveSleman at Elite Performance
(13:49):
Partners saying you know we havea client who's interested in a
psychologist.
We didn't say the client, butwork with a very high name, a
big name brand, you know, tochange culture and to work on
the psychology.
And and I said to him at thetime, I'm not really interested
in a hands-on psych job, youknow, pitch side, pool side,
anymore.
I felt like I'd done that kindof thing and it's it's a
(14:11):
particular lifestyle, you know,to be on camps or at games all
the time and I kind of felt likeI wasn't.
That's not where I was, but Ikept talking to him and you know
, as we got further and furtherand he sort of, you know, we're
at a position where he couldtell me who the client was and
he told me the FA in England andmy immediate impression was
like, oh God, no, that soundsawful because it had such a
(14:35):
terrible external reputation.
There'd been some really greatwork done by people like Dan
Ashworth and Dave Reddin and anumber of others around the
place Matt Crocker that had donegood work on restructuring and
revisioning what it could looklike and they had a really
strong understanding about themissing piece in culture and
(14:59):
people.
So you know, I kind of gotswayed into it and then I came
to the assessment centre, whichwas felt like it was about four
weeks long, two days long andvery intense.
But I just had fun with it andI met Gareth, the coach, and you
know, when I started the role,the idea was that I would run
(15:20):
the department, not bepersonally within a team, the
department not be personallywithin a team.
But it was no end of November2017 by the time I started,
because I was relocating and wejust didn't have time to bring
somebody else in before prepcamp for world cup.
So, so I wasn't ever supposedto be that psych.
I was supposed to be runningthe department with that psych
(15:41):
working with me.
So I stepped stepped into thebreach, so to speak, and I think
because Gareth's open-minded me.
So I stepped stepped into thebreach, so to speak, and I think
because Gareth's open-minded,because so much good work had
already been done.
Owen Eastwood had been in theredoing some fantastic work on
identity and Lane Four had beenin there doing some sort of
foundational work, you know.
So it was ripe, really, to makesome decent shifts and go much
(16:05):
deeper on on sort of.
You know what are theconditions for winning?
Not how do you take a penaltykick Actually, that's the
smallest slice of the work butwhat are the conditions required
for eight weeks on the road tobe winning, you know, and to
keep everybody in a state wherethey could win.
You know, that was the work andI look back at that now and the
(16:27):
external world imagines thiskind of guru out the front doing
some kind of mind trickery tohelp somebody take penalties.
It's the tiniest piece, but Idid a lot of work with the coach
and the staff group and I did alot of work to keep the
conditions possible for the wayit transpired and to bring
(16:51):
different energies into camp.
So you know, I felt reallyweird at the end of that because
the media had made a hero outof me, which is a difficult
thing to experience within anelite sport anyway, because tall
poppies don't go well and I wasnew and I felt really awkward
about that and I think it didcreate some tension.
Sue Anstiss (17:13):
I never said a word through the whole thing um, I
tried to get you on the podcast,I think, and that it was like
there's a definite no from theFA yeah, there was a definite no
from the FA, but there was a nofrom me too.
Pippa Grange (17:25):
I still felt very new in the environment, very
rookie, and I felt like I'd hada window and it had gone really
well, but I knew I hadn'tcreated all of that.
But the story that the mediawants is a hero, yeah, so I
became it and it was.
It was a bit weird actually andand I felt very reluctant, but I
also felt really rewarded thatwe'd been able to have some
(17:49):
conversations that had neverbeen had and tackle some
subjects about who we were andwhat that badge meant, that
hadn't been had for a long timeor that had been contemporized,
and they really needed to becontemporized for the young
people who are in that team now.
So the work was enjoyable withteam and then, you know, after
(18:10):
the world cup, I was still withthe team because we still hadn't
found that right person to comein and running the department
across 16 teams, across men'sand women's, and I had a you
know, at one point there was, Ithink there was 11 psychs or
(18:35):
culture coaches working with us,which was really awesome for a
period of time of departmentsthat sort of brought it more
into data evidence, traditionalsort of pitch psych and you know
, well-being and less away fromthat thing that I feel like over
25 years I've been developingas niche around you know,
(18:55):
redefining and success andwinning and attitudes about
winning and mental freedom.
So I kind of felt, okay, Idon't want to go further up this
ladder, this is.
I respect what they're doingand I've really I really felt
fortunate to have thatopportunity, but my ladders may
be up a different wall, yeah, so.
Sue Anstiss (19:15):
So yeah, I took my leave at that point and jumped
over to write, to dream and whenyou look back now, do you feel
that that culture you helpcreate has been retained?
It's obviously harder to seethat externally.
Do you feel that that cultureyou helped create has been
retained?
It's obviously harder to seethat externally, but do you feel
the teams and people departmentdoesn't exist anymore and
things have changed?
Change, but what do you feel?
Pippa Grange (19:35):
um, you're right, it's too hard to to sort of
comment on it from outside.
I'm I'm still, you know,regularly in touch with the
people who are in there.
There's some brilliant peopleworking in that at st george's
park, and I have the greatestrespect for them.
But I think that the focus haschanged a bit away from that
work.
But I hope that some of it'sretained and you know, things
(19:56):
have their own momentum.
So it's taken its ownpersonality and evolved its own
way in good ways.
And some of the same people arethere, so a lot of the same
people are there.
So I'm sure there's rich stuffthat emerged while I was there
with those people that stillretain.
So it's not something I did.
That was a blueprint.
That's the way Things havetheir own legs and they grow
(20:21):
their own way.
But you know, it's part ofbeing a catalyst or a spark for
a way of seeing things, maybeExcellent.
Sue Anstiss (20:28):
You've written this incredible book, fearless how
to Win at Life Without LosingYourself, and I genuinely feel
it might have changed my life 55.
I bought so many copies forfriends and for my daughters and
family and things as well.
So, uh, you open with a reallystrong statement.
What have I told you?
Your life was run by fear.
So can you talk to us, I guess,without giving that away, the
(20:50):
whole book, but a little bitaround about that premise yeah,
well, firstly, thank you.
Pippa Grange (20:55):
I'm really pleased it's it's meant something to
you and that was the whole pointof writing it.
I think that we underestimatethe role that fear plays in our
lives, in our psychology.
You know, there are I sort ofdistinguish types of fear.
I talk about in the moment fear, um, which you know we're all
familiar with, that shows up andgives us a adrenaline prickle
(21:16):
down the knees and, you know, inthe back of the neck kind of
thing that we all experience oneway or another on an occasional
or regular basis.
That's one thing.
But I think that there isanother kind of fear that has
become so culturally enmeshed inour psychology and that's the
fear of not being good enough,and I think that's pervasive in
(21:39):
all of our lives on a veryregular basis.
So we have this fear is verynatural, we don't want to be
without it.
What we need to do is make surethat the amount, the dose, you
know, is right, it's not apoisonous dose to our psychology
.
So hence, fearless, notfearless.
So you know, I think it doesrun all over lives.
(22:01):
It's there and prevalent andneeded, but it's culturally high
volume in lots of ourinstitutions, our environments,
our relationships, our sense ofourself.
I describe it in the book asbeing a bit sneaky.
You know it doesn't always showup and be really immediately
visible as fear.
It might show up as envy orjealousy, might show up as
(22:24):
perfectionism and the need tocontrol.
It might show up as apreference to stay small and
separate and not be revealed.
You know so there's lots ofdifferent sort of twists and
turns it takes and I think whenwe look at how we experience
ourselves in life and you see itfrom that angle, fear is really
(22:45):
prevalent and my objectiveisn't to help people get rid of
it or just soothe it and quietenit and turn away.
It's to actually reallyunderstand how it's showing up
in your life and what it'scosting you, what each fear
journey is costing you, and thenwhat you might do to think
about replacing it withsomething that's stronger or
(23:06):
more hopeful for you.
Sue Anstiss (23:08):
And that process.
Was there a moment in time whenyou realised the impact that
fear can have on lives, or isthat something that you've
accrued over your time ofworking with teams and sports
and so on?
Pippa Grange (23:20):
yeah, kind of a bit like the, the sort of you
know the thing I was sayingbefore about the there is no
silver bullet, template orunderstanding or moment.
There are things that show upfor you, that really illuminate
what you kind of know in yourgut.
But for me it was accumulationof examples over many years and
when I was in Australia maybeabout 10 years ago a bit longer
(23:43):
now I started to notice that thepeople I was working with,
whether they were sort ofboardroom or change room, they
had the same patterning of fearof not being good enough.
Even those people who were youor I would look in and go.
That's a massively successfulwinner, but the experience of
(24:05):
their success still was colouredby that fear of not being good
enough.
And you know, I started torealise that it was actually
stealing everybody's joy insport or in winning.
So it's a it's a pattern thataccrued over a long time for me
and I thought that's maybe thething to work on.
Sue Anstiss (24:24):
I'm fascinated by so many of your methods and you
kind of give some fantasticexamples throughout the book,
and one I was really intriguedwith is that triple h exercise.
Can you tell us a little bitmore about that?
Pippa Grange (24:37):
Yeah, it was first devised in Atlanta Falcons NFL.
I think it was Mike Smith andJohn Gordon who'd sort of
devised this or tried this out.
And the idea of it is how doyou play for your team if you
don't know your team?
Right.
And it's the idea of intimacywhich, you know, we've kind of
made intimacy far too narrow inour understanding it's just
(24:58):
something that happens betweenyou know partners or lovers or
deep friends, right.
But intimacy is basically itjust means showing up as you,
authentically as you, withoutthe mask on, and being
vulnerable enough to do that.
And it's a big deal.
And I personally feel and theyfelt, that if you can bring
intimacy into a team and peoplecan actually know each other at
(25:21):
some level, you are going toreally have so much more
opportunity to have the kind ofbond that works on the pitch.
So Triple H is standing up infront of the group and telling a
story of a hero, a highlightand a hardship from your own
life.
And in Richmond Tigers that Italk about in the book, you know
(25:42):
it can be, they tell all sorts.
It leaves the imagination tothe individual.
You say you know, if you toldme you're three, they're going
to be very different to the nextperson.
So it's very personal, you know.
And so it's very personal, youknow.
I've seen people who are thebravest, toughest individuals
out in the field and who wouldbe bold enough to say what they
(26:04):
thought about anything you knowin a social setting.
But talking about themselvesand those three H's was took
them into such a vulnerable zoneand they'd sort of, you know,
rather poke their eye out thanstand in front of other people
and talk.
But even though they wereterrified, I didn't do it, shane
McCurry did it, who came afterme as a dear friend.
(26:24):
He came after me at RichmondTigers.
But you know, the train of thatthinking around intimacy and
bringing that into the team sortof had a long tail and when
they stood up and told thosestories they were horrified and
terrified for weeks beforehand.
But absolutely every time, youknow, 40 other people in the
(26:46):
room would go and give them ahug and just say we love you
afterwards and feel respect andendearment and notice the
person's courage in beingvulnerable, which for me is just
such a massive, underratedbridge to performance.
So it really shifts things, Ithink, when you can bring that
kind of intimacy into a team.
Most times we don't.
We're way too performative.
(27:08):
We manage the impression wemake very tightly.
Sue Anstiss (27:13):
And is that something that you then take
into the business environment?
Pippa Grange (27:16):
100%, Okay, interesting yeah yeah,
definitely the ability to havereal conversations, rather than
carefully craft your words toget a result, which means you're
always in performance.
It's always theatre, you know,and you never actually get to
that stuff.
That is the real performance.
Unlock whether that's bond,team alignment, unlocking
(27:40):
somebody's creativity orwillingness to take the risks to
solve a problem in a differentway.
You know that it needs intimacy, intimacy and some kind of
safety.
You know Amy Edmondson's workon psychological safety is
brilliant around that, but youknow, I think she doesn't use
the word, but I think when she'sexplaining it, she's also
(28:00):
talking about the ability tofreely express who you are.
And for me, when you do thatwith another person, you and I
are doing it right now.
Right?
That's intimacy.
Sue Anstiss (28:10):
Yeah, it's so powerful, isn't it?
And does that come?
I guess you need to get theplayers on board to share that,
but clearly on a hierarchicalbasis.
It's about getting the buy-infrom that.
It's the structure of a seniormanagement and team, and where
does where does the blockageoccur for you when you go into
an environment to create thateverywhere?
Pippa Grange (28:31):
everybody's always terrified of it.
You know, they might think it'sa great idea, but you know, um,
in organized if I give anexample of an organization that
I've worked with doing somethingsimilar, you know, um, I always
ask the boss to go first.
You know, um.
So you know that person showingup without their power armor on,
(28:51):
even if they're much loved andwell liked and don't think that
they use power in a negative way, the idea of being the boss and
the performance that goes withbeing the boss, is really hard
for them to take the armor offand say you know, I want to tell
you about my grandma or I wantto tell you about when I really
had a hard time, but it unlockssomething huge.
(29:12):
But I start at the top and askthe boss first, and so then that
gives a natural permission andan encouragement, you know, but
it really needs some strongfacilitation to do it well.
And then the emotional energythat comes through it.
Even if you're in the kind ofhyper-masculine environment that
you talked about before, wherethere's a lot of closed body
(29:34):
posture and eyes down kind ofthing, I absolutely know that
they're going to put their armaround somebody in the corridor
afterwards or say that was bravemate, I wouldn't have done that
, or whatever it is.
You know that it starts amomentum of energy towards
something much more useful.
Sue Anstiss (29:53):
Absolutely fascinating, isn't it?
You've been in sport for somuch of your working life and
it's uh, that discipline that isso focused on outcome, so
results and the scoreboard, andand it's easy to see how
athletes put so much of theirworth into the results that they
create.
So how do you begin to to breakdown that for them and create
that, that change in in whatsport's about for them?
Pippa Grange (30:17):
I think that it's an exploration.
It's not that I bring a new wayof looking at it.
What I try and do is create theconditions for them to look at
what feels right.
You know, because, again, it'snot my template, it's not my
idea, it's just it's what I'vetried to do with the book too.
It's like how can I provokeyour thought about what actually
(30:39):
feels right for you or better,stronger for you, and what is
the cost of your journey ifyou're doing it differently, in
a way that you don't want to?
So so I think you know I tryand create conditions to discuss
or to explore or to play Playis massively underrated or to
(31:00):
connect, you know, and sometimesit's really subtle.
It's not just like, okay,there's going to be a big scary
meeting, everybody in a circle,and we're going to have to
reveal ourselves and talk aboutour mothers.
You know, it's like it's tooterrifying.
So you can do it much moresubtly than that.
The Triple H is a really greatexample, but, as I said, there'd
been a big run up to that.
(31:20):
It wasn't like day one,everybody in, yeah, yeah, it's
like I'd be horrified doing that.
So I think you have to justcontinually think about what
conditions and environments andculture am I creating?
Are we creating on daily?
That is, um helping people befreer mentally, psychologically,
(31:42):
because that's the stuff and isthere a different approach for
different sports?
Sue Anstiss (31:46):
so you've worked across, uh, you know Aussie
rules and rugby league andswimming and so on, and also
different genders.
Is that?
Do you find it differentworking with female teams to
male teams?
Pippa Grange (31:57):
I think if you ask about individuals, female
athletes versus male athletes, Isee quite a lot of difference
in emotional tone perhaps, ormen sometimes feeling that they
have to be more performative andkind of reluctant when it comes
to sharing emotions.
But in teams female teams toooften in my view share the norms
(32:21):
of that sort of performativekeep it all in you know, talk
about it when we're out of sight, don't say what you really feel
and mean, because you don'twant to be seen as weak or less
or less committed or whateverelse.
So I still find that there'sstill quite a single archetype
of how to be in a team, andthat's something I'd really love
(32:45):
to see change over the comingyears that there can be more
individuality and emotionalfreedom for people in teams.
It doesn't have to look acertain way.
Sue Anstiss (32:54):
I think we're a bit stuck in a template of how it
looks and you talked about ahuge amount of the work that
you've done in the past, but youexposed bullying culture at
Australian swimming back in 2012, and that's certainly something
we've been hearing more aboutrecently.
In sports like gymnastics andathletics and then some para
sports.
In the GB team too, we talkabout that kind of myth that
(33:17):
fear is the best motivator,which is certainly something
that we see in sport.
So how do you feel coaches canget the most from their athletes
without that need to intimidatethem or the belief that they
need to intimidate?
Pippa Grange (33:30):
them?
Yeah, great question.
It is a myth, isn't it?
It's a sticky one.
I mean, if you think about thepremise of the book fear is
always with us.
We don't need to add more.
You will bring your own if youare the performer right.
It's actually more aboutchanneling it in a useful way.
I think what happens is that thecoach feels fear and transmits
(33:52):
it, passes it on, because thatsort of need to feel like all
the edges are tucked in andeverything's going to be
controlled and and you know theyneed to push that person
towards their goal, is just a,an underestimation or a.
I've used the term lazy beforeand that's probably not quite
right.
It's a under explored way ofdoing it.
(34:15):
So fear will lift your game forthe next 15 minutes, let's say
because of effort.
But actually there's so muchcost psychological and
physiological cost of elevatedfear.
It just doesn't work as themotivator.
Everything from narrowed vision, from changed physiology, from
(34:38):
a dump of cortisol which isgoing to have an effect half an
hour after that to.
You know the anxiety and theand the track running in the
back of your mind about don'tmess up which, this bucket of
attention that you have to applyto the task in front of you,
whether it's a penalty kick oryou know the next phase of a
game or whatever else, thebucket of attention you have to
(35:01):
apply is narrowed because halfof it's spent on don't stuff up
and also the experience is awful.
So what somebody is trying to dowhen they do that is make sure
that the person's focused, makesure that a person is bringing
right effort, that they areapplying their talent to the
(35:22):
task.
There are different ways ofdoing that that are about
discipline, which is veryrelevant, and focus and
attention and confidence.
Fear does not lift confidence,it takes it in the opposite
direction.
So I think, yes, we've got manyexamples of somebody getting a,
as they say in Australia, ahalftime spray from the coach
(35:43):
and it resulting in something,but most of the time that's out
of effort and then momentum.
The momentum of the game mightshift or change and it's you
know we see that as the way, butthere's a lot of luck in that.
I think the more precise orskilled way of doing that is
driving attention, disciplineand confidence.
So I just find it very limitedas a ledger of cost-benefit.
(36:06):
It usually doesn't stack up andit feels rubbish.
Sue Anstiss (36:11):
I guess there's so much fascinating in the book,
but I did find that thephysiological effect of fear and
the decision-making and allthose elements was quite
extraordinary to read andunderstand about that.
So do you think sports andcoaches are beginning to
understand that?
Are things changing inattitudes?
Books like yours obviously willhelp that and spread the word,
(36:33):
but do you feel we're in a morepositive place in terms of the
way we coach athletes?
Pippa Grange (36:37):
Yeah, I think there's some amazing progress
happening in that and, like anyother sort of big psychological
shift, it takes a bit of time,it takes a bit of courage to
keep experimenting.
But I see some very cool thingsthat inspire me or lift me,
especially where women arecoaching, that are different,
(36:59):
and that willingness to step inand say I don't really work like
that, so why would other humanbeings work like that?
That's why in the book I talkabout, see face replace, so like
you have to really stop a bitlonger and see what's going on
for you and see where fear iskicking around in the corners
and actually, yeah, I am a bit,you know that is anxiety
(37:22):
speaking in me.
That is a fear of not beinggood enough.
And then what's it costing?
And then, you know, bringingthat into the room.
So it's a male example.
But Steve Kerr as Golden StateWarriors, I really love his
coaching methodology andphilosophy because, you know,
their values include joy andcompassion too.
(37:43):
You know, I think that hereally coaches the human being,
not just the tactics or the game.
And if we really think abouthow human beings operate, then
this stuff is.
It's a journey Like how do wegrow, how do we open up, how do
we step into a bit morevulnerability for performance?
It's not an either orproposition.
(38:04):
I think people think if I'mvulnerable, I'm going to do all
the soft stuff, I'm going tolose.
Focus on the win.
You know, my sort of centralmessage is no, it's about method
.
The win is there for the taking.
It will still involve blood,sweat and tears.
It will still involve all thegrit and all the work.
It will still involve all thegrit and all the work, but the
(38:27):
tone is what we need to changeand fear is in the tone.
Sue Anstiss (38:29):
Excellent, excellent.
So much of your work has beenundoing years of athletes
focused on results and judgingtheir sense of worth by their
achievements in a pitch or in apool.
But with right to dream, itseems you're helping athletes to
shape their sport in a verydifferent way right from the
start, from the outset.
Pippa Grange (38:46):
So I'd love you to tell me a bit more about right
to dream and your your work withthe organization too yeah, I
mean, I think the sort ofcentral part of the model for
right to dream is that there isa the triangle of learning or
development is footballdevelopment, educational or
academic development, andcharacter, which, as a young
(39:07):
person, matures into sort of apro player that becomes purpose,
character and purpose.
How do you want the things thatyou know about yourself, your
own identity, to drive how youact in the world and especially
how you act in the world forothers?
You know life outside your ownwindow.
So the model from 10 years old,when a kid joins one of our
(39:30):
academies, especially ourresidential academies, which at
the moment is in Ghana and willsoon be in Egypt, is that that
triangle is the basis of thelearning.
I don't want to over-romanticiseit because they're also young
people who are aspiring to profootball and they will move into
or very sort of high-endeducation in the US or the UK.
(39:56):
So they enter what we invertedcommas call elite environments
where there is masses of thiskind of structure and
orientation to outcome.
So we have to prepare them forthat as well.
But you know, so those aspectsof resilience and discipline and
self-belief and self-focus, allthose things really matter.
But we hope that we also givethem a rounded sense of who they
(40:20):
are as a human being.
And you know they live in amultiverse, as we say, not just
a single universe of.
I am only a success if I playpro football for 10 years.
You know, how else do you bringrichness and success into your
life, for you and for others?
How are you part of the worldoutside of performance?
(40:44):
So that's kind of a big pieceof it and we're expanding at the
moment and trying to take thatsort of redefined idea of
excellence to other places forpeople to experiment and explore
with as well.
Sue Anstiss (40:57):
What's your?
Pippa Grange (40:57):
role with Right to Dream.
I'm Chief Culture Officer, soin another organisation, that's
just.
You know it's on the executive.
Excellent, excellent.
Sue Anstiss (41:07):
As we've alluded to , many perceptions of leadership
are associated with moretraditionally male attributes,
such as authority and dominance,and yet we're seeing amazing
women like Jacinda Ardern in avery different way, leading with
compassion and respect and thatauthentic area that we talked
about earlier.
So what advice would you giveto women who are taking on
(41:27):
leadership roles now around theattributes that they adopt?
Pippa Grange (41:33):
I mean, Jacinda Ardern is a great example
because for me it's about whatis her, and she has got swathes
of authority.
If you think about what she gotdone in her first term with the
first terrorist attack on newzealand, soil and covid and you
know, achieved massive thingswith influence and authority.
(41:53):
She didn't just show up withcompassion, right, she had those
other things.
Dominance, I think, is the onethat we can kick to the curb
that.
You know.
Ideas of dominance andcomparison are the draining,
exhausting, not very usefulthings that are part of
leadership, that we have toconquer and dominate the other.
Yeah, but I think that JacindaArdern, or you know, we might
(42:14):
look at closer to home, and EmmaHayes as a coach as well.
I mean, she's got authority,she's got credibility.
I would do what she told me andit's not just because she shows
up with charisma and compassion, it's an and it's what you add
from that original, classic,kind of outdated archetype how
(42:35):
do you bring those other things?
But I think that orientationfor any leader is if you start
by thinking about what am Itrying to achieve and who am I
trying to achieve it with andfor, and go back to the human,
the human perspective and thinkwhat moves the human, and most
of the time it is not going tobe those hardcore things about
(42:57):
dominance and comparison.
They're short-lived, like fear,like like the idea of a fearful
halftime talk.
It's leadership attributes thatare deep resilience, persistence
, compassion, open-mindedness,like can I hear my leader
learning?
Can I hear my leader listening?
(43:19):
Can I see flex in them.
When we think about, sometimesI think when we talk about
resilience as a leadershipfactor, we're still thinking
about toughness.
Can they bounce back?
It's just one aspect.
When I think resilience, I'mthinking the difference between
toughness, which is like aconcrete block, immovable, no
flex, and a flexible sheet ofsteel, which is resilience, like
(43:41):
can it bend and come back, canit take a different shape if the
environment or the contextneeds it, you know, or is it
rigid, hard, tough, immovable,no give in it.
I think they're the things forcontemporary leadership that are
just really high value.
It's fascinating.
Sue Anstiss (44:01):
And I guess, just finally.
Clearly, you've had amazingsuccess career-wise, and the
book's had huge success too.
But what's next in terms ofyour personal ambitions for the
future?
Pippa Grange (44:12):
I would like to.
I've spent sort of 25 years insport and you know, the reality
is that the majority of myemphasis has been working in
male teams, and I would like tohave a broader conversation.
I would like to see how we cancurate and create a different
archetype for women working insport, but also for men, who
(44:32):
might embrace more of thefeminine and, you know, get rid
of some of the old sort of stucktough archetype that we've just
been talking about.
So that's important to me andI'd really like us to broaden
out and be a bit moreimaginative about this idea of
winning and success and whatthat looks like.
So you know, there's parts ofthat that I hope to be able to
(44:54):
do through the role with Rightto Dream, but there's also parts
of it that are being able tocontribute a little bit to a
broader conversation about whowe are and how we live.
Sue Anstiss (45:06):
Wow, what an incredible woman.
It's clear to see why Pip hashad such an enormous impact
across her life.
I loved hearing about Pip'slink to Loughborough University.
Other trailblazing guests onthis podcast who studied or
lectured there include footballlegend Jill Scott, british
Paralympic champion BaronessTanni Grey-Thompson, head of
(45:29):
women's football at the FA, dameSue Campbell and the CEO of the
Youth Sport Trust, ali Oliver.
If you'd like to know more aboutthe other work I do, including
the Women's Sport Collective, anetwork for all women working in
sport, please visitfearlesswomencouk.
This is also where you can findout more about all my incredible
(45:51):
guests from this and theprevious series, and you can
also listen to the podcast fromthe website too.
You can also sign up toChanging the Game, our free
weekly newsletter thathighlights all the latest
developments in the world ofwomen's sport.
Thanks again to Barclays fortheir kind support of the Game
Changers, to Sam Walker, ourexecutive producer, rory Ouskery
(46:15):
on sound production and KateHannan behind the scenes making
sure everything runs smoothly.
Next week, in the final episodeof this series, I'm so excited
to talk to Laura Woods, recentlyvoted the SJA Sports Presenter
of the Year.
Laura is a regular on SkySports and the host of Talk
(46:36):
Sports' flagship SportsBreakfast, one of the most
listened to shows in the UK,laura talks very openly about
her journey from being a runnerat Sky Sports in 2009, working
her way up through thebroadcasting ladder in
production before moving infront of the camera.
Laura's outgoing nature and herunflappable personality make her
(47:00):
one of the most in-demandsports presenters right now it's
like walking down a road with aload of potholes and sometimes
you can skip over them andsometimes they completely suck
you up.
I find the kind of get back inthe kitchen comments, I find
those they're.
They annoy me a little bit, butthen sometimes I'm kind of like
well, that's such an old jokeand if you haven't come up with
(47:21):
anything new for the lasthowever many years, I feel sorry
for you.
If your opinion of a woman isgenuinely that she needs to stay
in the kitchen, you haven'tevolved either.
Like what are you doing?
The Game Changers?
Fearless women in sport.
Hello and welcome to the Game Changers, the
podcast where you'll hear fromextraordinary, trailblazing
women in sport.
I'm your host, sue Anstiss, andI'd like to start by thanking
Barclays for their ongoingsupport of the Game Changers.
There are a few brands acrossthe world who are doing more for
(00:26):
women's sport.
Right now.
Barclay is a title sponsor ofthe Women's Super League and
they also back the FA in thefantastic work it does to ensure
that every school girl acrossthe country will have the chance
to play football by 2024.
I'm really excited to introducemy guest today, Dr Pippa Grange.
(00:46):
Pippa is an influential sportspsychologist and a culture coach
working across elite sports andbusiness internationally.
She believes relationships areat the heart of everything and
the antidote to fear.
As head of people and teamDevelopment at the Football
Association, Pippa workedclosely with the England team
(01:08):
for the World Cup in 2018.
And, although she's very humblein accepting any praise, her
presence was clearlytransformational in changing the
culture of the team and helpingthe players to build their
confidence.
Pippa is now part of a seniorleadership team for the global
Right to Dream group, working oncultural strategy.
(01:28):
Pippa's worked across the worldin a range of sports, from
swimming and rugby through toAustralian rules, football and
soccer.
She's also the author of anextraordinary book that I loved
Fear Less how to Win at LifeWithout Losing Yourself.
I had heard that Pippa hadfaced some real challenges
growing up, so I asked her totell me about life at home.
Pippa Grange (01:57):
Well, I grew up in Yorkshire in a place called
Harrogate in North Yorkshire andmy early childhood was awesome,
amazing.
You know I had a really closeloving relationship with my mum
and my nan especially.
Mum was a single mum.
When she had me she was 19.
You know, I remember that veryfondly.
She got married when I was five, subsequently had three
brothers and sisters.
(02:17):
That sort of early years up tobeing 12 or so were really nice,
like a regular Englishchildhood.
I look back fondly.
But things disintegrated.
My stepfather was an alcoholicand their marriage disintegrated
and it was really a struggle.
She was a single mom with fourkids, no resources, working all
(02:40):
the time.
I was a kind of a pseudo parentfrom the age of 12 for my
siblings.
Where I look back now, I hadreally a whole heap of
responsibility that a teenagerwouldn't normally have and she
got into a subsequentrelationship later probably she
would reflect, I think, when shewas, you know, already
(03:03):
overwhelmed and at the end of atether and she got into a
relationship which was violentand that unraveled everything
for us.
So, you know, through that sortof period in the lead up to me
being 16, she was, you know, inthis violent relationship and he
lived in the home with us andsort of any person who's grown
(03:25):
up with violence in the home andwhere there's been alcoholism
and you know the layers oftrauma that that lays down for a
young person and in fact forthe mum, the parent.
You know it's very complexstuff.
But what you feel as a teenageris angry and abandoned and
confused.
(03:45):
And you know, I think whathappened for me at that point
was I just became fierce andbold, but in a way that was
about rejecting the status quoand being sort of determined to
forge my own path and I was sortof generally annoyed with life,
you know, and it served as areasonable motivator for
(04:07):
survival at that point of time.
But you know I've learnedsubsequently that that's not the
best place to place that sortof energy.
It was a mess and I left homeat 16, couch surfed for a bit,
was sort of officially homelessfor a little bit, and I thought,
well, this isn't going to workout.
Officially homeless for alittle bit and I thought, well,
this isn't going to work out.
So I always had some kind ofpush in me, some sort of really
(04:29):
resistance to getting stuck, Ithink, which maybe that came
from the kind of childhood I'dhad Found a bedsit eventually
and I had five jobs, onefull-time and four part-time
jobs.
That kind of went from 6am tillmidnight.
Just, I think, with adetermination that this wasn't
going to be the way it was.
(04:50):
Even though I had no idea ofdirection, something in me
always was pulled back to theeducation.
I'm a real natural learner, Iam curious as a human being and
I was pulled back to educationand I went to college in York,
no idea what I wanted to do, butI'd gone and done a BTEC in
leisure or something which wasprobably about the easiest
(05:12):
option for me in front of me atthat point in time and I didn't
have a sense of myself forwhether I was really capable or
intelligent at much.
I just felt this sort of fireof emotion in me and
determination to move.
But in that course I met abrilliant teacher who was a
really interesting woman and sheconvinced me over the course of
(05:34):
a couple of years that I wassmart and that I could
definitely go to university andthat was a radical idea for me.
It's like what you know, as ifnobody in my family had ever
been to university and it justwasn't anything I'd thought
about, but I got excited by it.
She helped me apply to variousuniversities and Loughborough
accepted me and it was, like youknow, the world had opened up.
(05:57):
I thought that I thought thatarrived at that point.
Then I started that journey atLoughborough University where
you know you're living living inresidences and I was completely
immersed in different kinds ofpeople than I'd ever met, with
different views about how lifemight work out.
I really found some anchors.
(06:21):
I found basketball, which Iplayed there.
I found study, which I reallyenjoyed, and I found a bunch of
mates that you know were andstill are anchors for me through
that journey and I guess Istarted to grow up about that
time, but you know, long journeyfrom there to fully growing up,
I think.
Sue Anstiss (06:42):
Yeah, that's amazing, isn't it?
And I guess, to get touniversity from, uh, as you say,
that kind of BTEC approach andinto and somewhere like
Loughborough I'm obviously agraduate myself, so a massive
fan of I should ask you, whathall were you in?
Actually, what hall were you in, um, evelyn Richards?
Oh yeah, I was a Faraday girl,but that's amazing that, I guess
, that transition then and intosports.
So how did you end up then from, actually, what did you study
(07:05):
at Loughborough?
Pippa Grange (07:05):
and then how did you end up, I guess, moving on
into getting out to Australia,what was that, that process, um,
I studied, uh, sports science,which I had no idea what it was
when I went um, but it soundedreally interesting sports
science and social science, withan emphasis on the psychology.
So I did a joint honours um andyou know I think back to that
(07:25):
now, given that I had no ideareally that the step into that
was pretty over-optimistic forme, unfortunately.
You know I was well suited toit.
But you know I really like thatblend of the sport science and
the social science because I'vealways been interested in what
sport does for us and who we arewhile we're in it.
(07:46):
So it really worked nicely, andthat was my first taste of
sports psychology too.
So I did that.
I graduated and did theobligatory year travel and I was
going with a girlfriend who Iplayed basketball with and she
couldn't go because her fatherwas retrenched and so she had to
pull out.
And so I had this choice am Igoing on my own or am I not
(08:08):
going?
And so I went on my own.
But that was really formativeto travel on your own and be
terrified half the time andreally find a different view of
the world in other places aswell.
So when I came back I ended upworking in a basketball netball
volleyball centre that was acommercial venture up in
(08:29):
Reddishness, stockport.
Oh, wow, yeah, that a basketballfriend had put me in touch with
the opportunity there and youknow I was the person who was
charged with filling the centrewith people charged with filling
the centre with people.
So it's kind of like a, youknow, a sport development role
(08:51):
programme role, first gig aftertravelling, and it was fun and
it was an Australian company.
And after about a year therewas an opportunity to go and do
the same thing in Adelaide inAustralia, with a new centre
that was opening and I was like,yes, please.
So that's how I ended up inAustralia with a new centre that
was opening and I was like, yes, please.
So that's how I ended up inAustralia.
And then, you know, one yearled to another and another and
then I built a life there and,you know, picked up some more
(09:15):
study and and sort of found myway into sports psychology and
the doctoral studies, eventuallyin Melbourne.
So so, yeah, that was my entrypoint to Australia.
Sue Anstiss (09:26):
Excellent, and I'd like to talk to you a little bit
about that first role ofworking with football players in
Aussie rules, I guessAustralian men from the outset,
especially Aussie rules playersnot well known for talking about
feelings and perhaps showingvulnerable sides.
So how do you even begin tochange the culture of a sport
that's perhaps founded almost onthat hyper slightly unhealthy
(09:49):
but hyper masculinity?
So what was your process inworking in that environment?
Pippa Grange (09:55):
Yeah, I mean there was sort of a couple of threads
to it.
The first job I had in footballwas with the AFL Players
Association, so it was kind ofthe organisation that was known
as the support structure forplayers and for their off-field
life, for the conditions oftheir employment but also for
their off-field life.
So you know we tackled thingslike depression, drug policy and
(10:20):
what people understood aboutaddiction.
We tackled things likewell-being in the sport and
transitions and and that kind ofthing.
So it was a great position tostand in front of a group of
Aussie Rules players and talkbecause it was something that
was about their future, theirwell-being, what was
advantageous for them.
So I think it was easy becauseI was players association, yeah.
(10:45):
But you know you would walk intoa room of 40 something guys
with arms folded looking at youlike what is she talking about?
Many times.
But I think I had convictionabout what I was talking about.
And the other thing I know forsure working with many, many
young male athletes over time isthat the way they are in the
room talking one-on-one is verydifferent to the way they are in
(11:06):
the group and the locker room,as they say.
So I always found that whenthey got through the door and
you had a very human, trustingconversation with them, that
they didn't bring bravado andmachismo and all the rest that
they wanted to talk about stuff.
They might not show thatpublicly.
That took much longer to breakdown some of those, um, hyper
(11:28):
masculine stereotypes.
But you know the truth of thematter is especially around
mental health that people arehurting.
So we use the angle often ofwhat would you want this to be
for your mate who's sitting nextto you?
If you don't feel comfortabletalking about it yourself, can
you talk about it for him?
Yeah, yeah.
And so, because there's a verystrong sort of sense of mateship
(11:50):
and you know teamship amongAustralian teams I think
probably true of all teams.
So you know that was the anglein, and actually I, you know,
with the exception of a fewrules, I always felt quite well
respected and regarded in thoseenvironments with the players.
(12:10):
I've had my experiences withthe institutions and you know
the organizations that have beenmore ostracizing or lonelier as
a woman, lonelier as a woman,but generally the machismo among
the players.
You know they're young peoplewith really solid intentions
(12:30):
most of the time and notnecessarily the tools to
communicate.
So once you get under that andyou stay confident, I think it
gives them an opportunity to bewho they actually are.
Sue Anstiss (12:40):
Yeah, it's fascinating, isn't it?
I know when we say the name, drPippa Grange, many people think
of you as the person that camein and transformed the attitude
of the England football team andhelped them to eventually win
that penalty shootouts.
But you didn't bite their handsoff at the offer of a role or
the first approach.
Can you tell us a little bitabout that and why that was
(13:02):
really?
Pippa Grange (13:07):
a little bit about that and why that was really
Well.
I was in LA at the time, youknow, as I built my own business
, I worked with sports clientsand business clients and one of
my business clients had asked meto come work internally in
their organization for a coupleof years which ended up being
three years to help them buildpeople and culture work you know
, bring the psychology to thepeople and culture work, which
was fun.
And I ended up in LA doing that.
(13:27):
So I was kind of in that and Iwas starting to get a bit itchy
about well, what's next?
You know, and missing that.
You know it's deeply intensivein sort of corporate life and
businesses different spot and Iwas thinking I do miss it a bit.
But at the same time I feltquite relieved to be out of it
for a minute because it's sportsintense too.
And I had a call from DaveSleman at Elite Performance
(13:49):
Partners saying you know we havea client who's interested in a
psychologist.
We didn't say the client, butwork with a very high name, a
big name brand, you know, tochange culture and to work on
the psychology.
And and I said to him at thetime, I'm not really interested
in a hands-on psych job, youknow, pitch side, pool side,
anymore.
I felt like I'd done that kindof thing and it's it's a
(14:11):
particular lifestyle, you know,to be on camps or at games all
the time and I kind of felt likeI wasn't.
That's not where I was, but Ikept talking to him and you know
, as we got further and furtherand he sort of, you know, we're
at a position where he couldtell me who the client was and
he told me the FA in England andmy immediate impression was
like, oh God, no, that soundsawful because it had such a
(14:35):
terrible external reputation.
There'd been some really greatwork done by people like Dan
Ashworth and Dave Reddin and anumber of others around the
place Matt Crocker that had donegood work on restructuring and
revisioning what it could looklike and they had a really
strong understanding about themissing piece in culture and
(14:59):
people.
So you know, I kind of gotswayed into it and then I came
to the assessment centre, whichwas felt like it was about four
weeks long, two days long andvery intense.
But I just had fun with it andI met Gareth, the coach, and you
know, when I started the role,the idea was that I would run
(15:20):
the department, not bepersonally within a team, the
department not be personallywithin a team.
But it was no end of November2017 by the time I started,
because I was relocating and wejust didn't have time to bring
somebody else in before prepcamp for world cup.
So, so I wasn't ever supposedto be that psych.
I was supposed to be runningthe department with that psych
(15:41):
working with me.
So I stepped stepped into thebreach, so to speak, and I think
because Gareth's open-minded me.
So I stepped stepped into thebreach, so to speak, and I think
because Gareth's open-minded,because so much good work had
already been done.
Owen Eastwood had been in theredoing some fantastic work on
identity and Lane Four had beenin there doing some sort of
foundational work, you know.
So it was ripe, really, to makesome decent shifts and go much
(16:05):
deeper on on sort of.
You know what are theconditions for winning?
Not how do you take a penaltykick Actually, that's the
smallest slice of the work butwhat are the conditions required
for eight weeks on the road tobe winning, you know, and to
keep everybody in a state wherethey could win.
You know, that was the work andI look back at that now and the
(16:27):
external world imagines thiskind of guru out the front doing
some kind of mind trickery tohelp somebody take penalties.
It's the tiniest piece, but Idid a lot of work with the coach
and the staff group and I did alot of work to keep the
conditions possible for the wayit transpired and to bring
(16:51):
different energies into camp.
So you know, I felt reallyweird at the end of that because
the media had made a hero outof me, which is a difficult
thing to experience within anelite sport anyway, because tall
poppies don't go well and I wasnew and I felt really awkward
about that and I think it didcreate some tension.
Sue Anstiss (17:13):
I never said a word through the whole thing um, I
tried to get you on the podcast,I think, and that it was like
there's a definite no from theFA yeah, there was a definite no
from the FA, but there was a nofrom me too.
Pippa Grange (17:25):
I still felt very new in the environment, very
rookie, and I felt like I'd hada window and it had gone really
well, but I knew I hadn'tcreated all of that.
But the story that the mediawants is a hero, yeah, so I
became it and it was.
It was a bit weird actually andand I felt very reluctant, but I
also felt really rewarded thatwe'd been able to have some
(17:49):
conversations that had neverbeen had and tackle some
subjects about who we were andwhat that badge meant, that
hadn't been had for a long timeor that had been contemporized,
and they really needed to becontemporized for the young
people who are in that team now.
So the work was enjoyable withteam and then, you know, after
(18:10):
the world cup, I was still withthe team because we still hadn't
found that right person to comein and running the department
across 16 teams, across men'sand women's, and I had a you
know, at one point there was, Ithink there was 11 psychs or
(18:35):
culture coaches working with us,which was really awesome for a
period of time of departmentsthat sort of brought it more
into data evidence, traditionalsort of pitch psych and you know
, well-being and less away fromthat thing that I feel like over
25 years I've been developingas niche around you know,
(18:55):
redefining and success andwinning and attitudes about
winning and mental freedom.
So I kind of felt, okay, Idon't want to go further up this
ladder, this is.
I respect what they're doingand I've really I really felt
fortunate to have thatopportunity, but my ladders may
be up a different wall, yeah, so.
Sue Anstiss (19:15):
So yeah, I took my leave at that point and jumped
over to write, to dream and whenyou look back now, do you feel
that that culture you helpcreate has been retained?
It's obviously harder to seethat externally.
Do you feel that that cultureyou helped create has been
retained?
It's obviously harder to seethat externally, but do you feel
the teams and people departmentdoesn't exist anymore and
things have changed?
Change, but what do you feel?
Pippa Grange (19:35):
um, you're right, it's too hard to to sort of
comment on it from outside.
I'm I'm still, you know,regularly in touch with the
people who are in there.
There's some brilliant peopleworking in that at st george's
park, and I have the greatestrespect for them.
But I think that the focus haschanged a bit away from that
work.
But I hope that some of it'sretained and you know, things
(19:56):
have their own momentum.
So it's taken its ownpersonality and evolved its own
way in good ways.
And some of the same people arethere, so a lot of the same
people are there.
So I'm sure there's rich stuffthat emerged while I was there
with those people that stillretain.
So it's not something I did.
That was a blueprint.
That's the way Things havetheir own legs and they grow
(20:21):
their own way.
But you know, it's part ofbeing a catalyst or a spark for
a way of seeing things, maybeExcellent.
Sue Anstiss (20:28):
You've written this incredible book, fearless how
to Win at Life Without LosingYourself, and I genuinely feel
it might have changed my life 55.
I bought so many copies forfriends and for my daughters and
family and things as well.
So, uh, you open with a reallystrong statement.
What have I told you?
Your life was run by fear.
So can you talk to us, I guess,without giving that away, the
(20:50):
whole book, but a little bitaround about that premise yeah,
well, firstly, thank you.
Pippa Grange (20:55):
I'm really pleased it's it's meant something to
you and that was the whole pointof writing it.
I think that we underestimatethe role that fear plays in our
lives, in our psychology.
You know, there are I sort ofdistinguish types of fear.
I talk about in the moment fear, um, which you know we're all
familiar with, that shows up andgives us a adrenaline prickle
(21:16):
down the knees and, you know, inthe back of the neck kind of
thing that we all experience oneway or another on an occasional
or regular basis.
That's one thing.
But I think that there isanother kind of fear that has
become so culturally enmeshed inour psychology and that's the
fear of not being good enough,and I think that's pervasive in
(21:39):
all of our lives on a veryregular basis.
So we have this fear is verynatural, we don't want to be
without it.
What we need to do is make surethat the amount, the dose, you
know, is right, it's not apoisonous dose to our psychology
.
So hence, fearless, notfearless.
So you know, I think it doesrun all over lives.
(22:01):
It's there and prevalent andneeded, but it's culturally high
volume in lots of ourinstitutions, our environments,
our relationships, our sense ofourself.
I describe it in the book asbeing a bit sneaky.
You know it doesn't always showup and be really immediately
visible as fear.
It might show up as envy orjealousy, might show up as
(22:24):
perfectionism and the need tocontrol.
It might show up as apreference to stay small and
separate and not be revealed.
You know so there's lots ofdifferent sort of twists and
turns it takes and I think whenwe look at how we experience
ourselves in life and you see itfrom that angle, fear is really
(22:45):
prevalent and my objectiveisn't to help people get rid of
it or just soothe it and quietenit and turn away.
It's to actually reallyunderstand how it's showing up
in your life and what it'scosting you, what each fear
journey is costing you, and thenwhat you might do to think
about replacing it withsomething that's stronger or
(23:06):
more hopeful for you.
Sue Anstiss (23:08):
And that process.
Was there a moment in time whenyou realised the impact that
fear can have on lives, or isthat something that you've
accrued over your time ofworking with teams and sports
and so on?
Pippa Grange (23:20):
yeah, kind of a bit like the, the sort of you
know the thing I was sayingbefore about the there is no
silver bullet, template orunderstanding or moment.
There are things that show upfor you, that really illuminate
what you kind of know in yourgut.
But for me it was accumulationof examples over many years and
when I was in Australia maybeabout 10 years ago a bit longer
(23:43):
now I started to notice that thepeople I was working with,
whether they were sort ofboardroom or change room, they
had the same patterning of fearof not being good enough.
Even those people who were youor I would look in and go.
That's a massively successfulwinner, but the experience of
(24:05):
their success still was colouredby that fear of not being good
enough.
And you know, I started torealise that it was actually
stealing everybody's joy insport or in winning.
So it's a it's a pattern thataccrued over a long time for me
and I thought that's maybe thething to work on.
Sue Anstiss (24:24):
I'm fascinated by so many of your methods and you
kind of give some fantasticexamples throughout the book,
and one I was really intriguedwith is that triple h exercise.
Can you tell us a little bitmore about that?
Pippa Grange (24:37):
Yeah, it was first devised in Atlanta Falcons NFL.
I think it was Mike Smith andJohn Gordon who'd sort of
devised this or tried this out.
And the idea of it is how doyou play for your team if you
don't know your team?
Right.
And it's the idea of intimacywhich, you know, we've kind of
made intimacy far too narrow inour understanding it's just
(24:58):
something that happens betweenyou know partners or lovers or
deep friends, right.
But intimacy is basically itjust means showing up as you,
authentically as you, withoutthe mask on, and being
vulnerable enough to do that.
And it's a big deal.
And I personally feel and theyfelt, that if you can bring
intimacy into a team and peoplecan actually know each other at
(25:21):
some level, you are going toreally have so much more
opportunity to have the kind ofbond that works on the pitch.
So Triple H is standing up infront of the group and telling a
story of a hero, a highlightand a hardship from your own
life.
And in Richmond Tigers that Italk about in the book, you know
(25:42):
it can be, they tell all sorts.
It leaves the imagination tothe individual.
You say you know, if you toldme you're three, they're going
to be very different to the nextperson.
So it's very personal, you know.
And so it's very personal, youknow.
I've seen people who are thebravest, toughest individuals
out in the field and who wouldbe bold enough to say what they
(26:04):
thought about anything you knowin a social setting.
But talking about themselvesand those three H's was took
them into such a vulnerable zoneand they'd sort of, you know,
rather poke their eye out thanstand in front of other people
and talk.
But even though they wereterrified, I didn't do it, shane
McCurry did it, who came afterme as a dear friend.
(26:24):
He came after me at RichmondTigers.
But you know, the train of thatthinking around intimacy and
bringing that into the team sortof had a long tail and when
they stood up and told thosestories they were horrified and
terrified for weeks beforehand.
But absolutely every time, youknow, 40 other people in the
(26:46):
room would go and give them ahug and just say we love you
afterwards and feel respect andendearment and notice the
person's courage in beingvulnerable, which for me is just
such a massive, underratedbridge to performance.
So it really shifts things, Ithink, when you can bring that
kind of intimacy into a team.
Most times we don't.
We're way too performative.
(27:08):
We manage the impression wemake very tightly.
Sue Anstiss (27:13):
And is that something that you then take
into the business environment?
Pippa Grange (27:16):
100%, Okay, interesting yeah yeah,
definitely the ability to havereal conversations, rather than
carefully craft your words toget a result, which means you're
always in performance.
It's always theatre, you know,and you never actually get to
that stuff.
That is the real performance.
Unlock whether that's bond,team alignment, unlocking
(27:40):
somebody's creativity orwillingness to take the risks to
solve a problem in a differentway.
You know that it needs intimacy, intimacy and some kind of
safety.
You know Amy Edmondson's workon psychological safety is
brilliant around that, but youknow, I think she doesn't use
the word, but I think when she'sexplaining it, she's also
(28:00):
talking about the ability tofreely express who you are.
And for me, when you do thatwith another person, you and I
are doing it right now.
Right?
That's intimacy.
Sue Anstiss (28:10):
Yeah, it's so powerful, isn't it?
And does that come?
I guess you need to get theplayers on board to share that,
but clearly on a hierarchicalbasis.
It's about getting the buy-infrom that.
It's the structure of a seniormanagement and team, and where
does where does the blockageoccur for you when you go into
an environment to create thateverywhere?
Pippa Grange (28:31):
everybody's always terrified of it.
You know, they might think it'sa great idea, but you know, um,
in organized if I give anexample of an organization that
I've worked with doing somethingsimilar, you know, um, I always
ask the boss to go first.
You know, um.
So you know that person showingup without their power armor on,
(28:51):
even if they're much loved andwell liked and don't think that
they use power in a negative way, the idea of being the boss and
the performance that goes withbeing the boss, is really hard
for them to take the armor offand say you know, I want to tell
you about my grandma or I wantto tell you about when I really
had a hard time, but it unlockssomething huge.
(29:12):
But I start at the top and askthe boss first, and so then that
gives a natural permission andan encouragement, you know, but
it really needs some strongfacilitation to do it well.
And then the emotional energythat comes through it.
Even if you're in the kind ofhyper-masculine environment that
you talked about before, wherethere's a lot of closed body
(29:34):
posture and eyes down kind ofthing, I absolutely know that
they're going to put their armaround somebody in the corridor
afterwards or say that was bravemate, I wouldn't have done that
, or whatever it is.
You know that it starts amomentum of energy towards
something much more useful.
Sue Anstiss (29:53):
Absolutely fascinating, isn't it?
You've been in sport for somuch of your working life and
it's uh, that discipline that isso focused on outcome, so
results and the scoreboard, andand it's easy to see how
athletes put so much of theirworth into the results that they
create.
So how do you begin to to breakdown that for them and create
that, that change in in whatsport's about for them?
Pippa Grange (30:17):
I think that it's an exploration.
It's not that I bring a new wayof looking at it.
What I try and do is create theconditions for them to look at
what feels right.
You know, because, again, it'snot my template, it's not my
idea, it's just it's what I'vetried to do with the book too.
It's like how can I provokeyour thought about what actually
(30:39):
feels right for you or better,stronger for you, and what is
the cost of your journey ifyou're doing it differently, in
a way that you don't want to?
So so I think you know I tryand create conditions to discuss
or to explore or to play Playis massively underrated or to
(31:00):
connect, you know, and sometimesit's really subtle.
It's not just like, okay,there's going to be a big scary
meeting, everybody in a circle,and we're going to have to
reveal ourselves and talk aboutour mothers.
You know, it's like it's tooterrifying.
So you can do it much moresubtly than that.
The Triple H is a really greatexample, but, as I said, there'd
been a big run up to that.
(31:20):
It wasn't like day one,everybody in, yeah, yeah, it's
like I'd be horrified doing that.
So I think you have to justcontinually think about what
conditions and environments andculture am I creating?
Are we creating on daily?
That is, um helping people befreer mentally, psychologically,
(31:42):
because that's the stuff and isthere a different approach for
different sports?
Sue Anstiss (31:46):
so you've worked across, uh, you know Aussie
rules and rugby league andswimming and so on, and also
different genders.
Is that?
Do you find it differentworking with female teams to
male teams?
Pippa Grange (31:57):
I think if you ask about individuals, female
athletes versus male athletes, Isee quite a lot of difference
in emotional tone perhaps, ormen sometimes feeling that they
have to be more performative andkind of reluctant when it comes
to sharing emotions.
But in teams female teams toooften in my view share the norms
(32:21):
of that sort of performativekeep it all in you know, talk
about it when we're out of sight, don't say what you really feel
and mean, because you don'twant to be seen as weak or less
or less committed or whateverelse.
So I still find that there'sstill quite a single archetype
of how to be in a team, andthat's something I'd really love
(32:45):
to see change over the comingyears that there can be more
individuality and emotionalfreedom for people in teams.
It doesn't have to look acertain way.
Sue Anstiss (32:54):
I think we're a bit stuck in a template of how it
looks and you talked about ahuge amount of the work that
you've done in the past, but youexposed bullying culture at
Australian swimming back in 2012, and that's certainly something
we've been hearing more aboutrecently.
In sports like gymnastics andathletics and then some para
sports.
In the GB team too, we talkabout that kind of myth that
(33:17):
fear is the best motivator,which is certainly something
that we see in sport.
So how do you feel coaches canget the most from their athletes
without that need to intimidatethem or the belief that they
need to intimidate?
Pippa Grange (33:30):
them?
Yeah, great question.
It is a myth, isn't it?
It's a sticky one.
I mean, if you think about thepremise of the book fear is
always with us.
We don't need to add more.
You will bring your own if youare the performer right.
It's actually more aboutchanneling it in a useful way.
I think what happens is that thecoach feels fear and transmits
(33:52):
it, passes it on, because thatsort of need to feel like all
the edges are tucked in andeverything's going to be
controlled and and you know theyneed to push that person
towards their goal, is just a,an underestimation or a.
I've used the term lazy beforeand that's probably not quite
right.
It's a under explored way ofdoing it.
(34:15):
So fear will lift your game forthe next 15 minutes, let's say
because of effort.
But actually there's so muchcost psychological and
physiological cost of elevatedfear.
It just doesn't work as themotivator.
Everything from narrowed vision, from changed physiology, from
(34:38):
a dump of cortisol which isgoing to have an effect half an
hour after that to.
You know the anxiety and theand the track running in the
back of your mind about don'tmess up which, this bucket of
attention that you have to applyto the task in front of you,
whether it's a penalty kick oryou know the next phase of a
game or whatever else, thebucket of attention you have to
(35:01):
apply is narrowed because halfof it's spent on don't stuff up
and also the experience is awful.
So what somebody is trying to dowhen they do that is make sure
that the person's focused, makesure that a person is bringing
right effort, that they areapplying their talent to the
(35:22):
task.
There are different ways ofdoing that that are about
discipline, which is veryrelevant, and focus and
attention and confidence.
Fear does not lift confidence,it takes it in the opposite
direction.
So I think, yes, we've got manyexamples of somebody getting a,
as they say in Australia, ahalftime spray from the coach
(35:43):
and it resulting in something,but most of the time that's out
of effort and then momentum.
The momentum of the game mightshift or change and it's you
know we see that as the way, butthere's a lot of luck in that.
I think the more precise orskilled way of doing that is
driving attention, disciplineand confidence.
So I just find it very limitedas a ledger of cost-benefit.
(36:06):
It usually doesn't stack up andit feels rubbish.
Sue Anstiss (36:11):
I guess there's so much fascinating in the book,
but I did find that thephysiological effect of fear and
the decision-making and allthose elements was quite
extraordinary to read andunderstand about that.
So do you think sports andcoaches are beginning to
understand that?
Are things changing inattitudes?
Books like yours obviously willhelp that and spread the word,
(36:33):
but do you feel we're in a morepositive place in terms of the
way we coach athletes?
Pippa Grange (36:37):
Yeah, I think there's some amazing progress
happening in that and, like anyother sort of big psychological
shift, it takes a bit of time,it takes a bit of courage to
keep experimenting.
But I see some very cool thingsthat inspire me or lift me,
especially where women arecoaching, that are different,
(36:59):
and that willingness to step inand say I don't really work like
that, so why would other humanbeings work like that?
That's why in the book I talkabout, see face replace, so like
you have to really stop a bitlonger and see what's going on
for you and see where fear iskicking around in the corners
and actually, yeah, I am a bit,you know that is anxiety
(37:22):
speaking in me.
That is a fear of not beinggood enough.
And then what's it costing?
And then, you know, bringingthat into the room.
So it's a male example.
But Steve Kerr as Golden StateWarriors, I really love his
coaching methodology andphilosophy because, you know,
their values include joy andcompassion too.
(37:43):
You know, I think that hereally coaches the human being,
not just the tactics or the game.
And if we really think abouthow human beings operate, then
this stuff is.
It's a journey Like how do wegrow, how do we open up, how do
we step into a bit morevulnerability for performance?
It's not an either orproposition.
(38:04):
I think people think if I'mvulnerable, I'm going to do all
the soft stuff, I'm going tolose.
Focus on the win.
You know, my sort of centralmessage is no, it's about method
.
The win is there for the taking.
It will still involve blood,sweat and tears.
It will still involve all thegrit and all the work.
It will still involve all thegrit and all the work, but the
(38:27):
tone is what we need to changeand fear is in the tone.
Sue Anstiss (38:29):
Excellent, excellent.
So much of your work has beenundoing years of athletes
focused on results and judgingtheir sense of worth by their
achievements in a pitch or in apool.
But with right to dream, itseems you're helping athletes to
shape their sport in a verydifferent way right from the
start, from the outset.
Pippa Grange (38:46):
So I'd love you to tell me a bit more about right
to dream and your your work withthe organization too yeah, I
mean, I think the sort ofcentral part of the model for
right to dream is that there isa the triangle of learning or
development is footballdevelopment, educational or
academic development, andcharacter, which, as a young
(39:07):
person, matures into sort of apro player that becomes purpose,
character and purpose.
How do you want the things thatyou know about yourself, your
own identity, to drive how youact in the world and especially
how you act in the world forothers?
You know life outside your ownwindow.
So the model from 10 years old,when a kid joins one of our
(39:30):
academies, especially ourresidential academies, which at
the moment is in Ghana and willsoon be in Egypt, is that that
triangle is the basis of thelearning.
I don't want to over-romanticiseit because they're also young
people who are aspiring to profootball and they will move into
or very sort of high-endeducation in the US or the UK.
(39:56):
So they enter what we invertedcommas call elite environments
where there is masses of thiskind of structure and
orientation to outcome.
So we have to prepare them forthat as well.
But you know, so those aspectsof resilience and discipline and
self-belief and self-focus, allthose things really matter.
But we hope that we also givethem a rounded sense of who they
(40:20):
are as a human being.
And you know they live in amultiverse, as we say, not just
a single universe of.
I am only a success if I playpro football for 10 years.
You know, how else do you bringrichness and success into your
life, for you and for others?
How are you part of the worldoutside of performance?
(40:44):
So that's kind of a big pieceof it and we're expanding at the
moment and trying to take thatsort of redefined idea of
excellence to other places forpeople to experiment and explore
with as well.
Sue Anstiss (40:57):
What's your?
Pippa Grange (40:57):
role with Right to Dream.
I'm Chief Culture Officer, soin another organisation, that's
just.
You know it's on the executive.
Excellent, excellent.
Sue Anstiss (41:07):
As we've alluded to , many perceptions of leadership
are associated with moretraditionally male attributes,
such as authority and dominance,and yet we're seeing amazing
women like Jacinda Ardern in avery different way, leading with
compassion and respect and thatauthentic area that we talked
about earlier.
So what advice would you giveto women who are taking on
(41:27):
leadership roles now around theattributes that they adopt?
Pippa Grange (41:33):
I mean, Jacinda Ardern is a great example
because for me it's about whatis her, and she has got swathes
of authority.
If you think about what she gotdone in her first term with the
first terrorist attack on newzealand, soil and covid and you
know, achieved massive thingswith influence and authority.
(41:53):
She didn't just show up withcompassion, right, she had those
other things.
Dominance, I think, is the onethat we can kick to the curb
that.
You know.
Ideas of dominance andcomparison are the draining,
exhausting, not very usefulthings that are part of
leadership, that we have toconquer and dominate the other.
Yeah, but I think that JacindaArdern, or you know, we might
(42:14):
look at closer to home, and EmmaHayes as a coach as well.
I mean, she's got authority,she's got credibility.
I would do what she told me andit's not just because she shows
up with charisma and compassion, it's an and it's what you add
from that original, classic,kind of outdated archetype how
(42:35):
do you bring those other things?
But I think that orientationfor any leader is if you start
by thinking about what am Itrying to achieve and who am I
trying to achieve it with andfor, and go back to the human,
the human perspective and thinkwhat moves the human, and most
of the time it is not going tobe those hardcore things about
(42:57):
dominance and comparison.
They're short-lived, like fear,like like the idea of a fearful
halftime talk.
It's leadership attributes thatare deep resilience, persistence
, compassion, open-mindedness,like can I hear my leader
learning?
Can I hear my leader listening?
(43:19):
Can I see flex in them.
When we think about, sometimesI think when we talk about
resilience as a leadershipfactor, we're still thinking
about toughness.
Can they bounce back?
It's just one aspect.
When I think resilience, I'mthinking the difference between
toughness, which is like aconcrete block, immovable, no
flex, and a flexible sheet ofsteel, which is resilience, like
(43:41):
can it bend and come back, canit take a different shape if the
environment or the contextneeds it, you know, or is it
rigid, hard, tough, immovable,no give in it.
I think they're the things forcontemporary leadership that are
just really high value.
It's fascinating.
Sue Anstiss (44:01):
And I guess, just finally.
Clearly, you've had amazingsuccess career-wise, and the
book's had huge success too.
But what's next in terms ofyour personal ambitions for the
future?
Pippa Grange (44:12):
I would like to.
I've spent sort of 25 years insport and you know, the reality
is that the majority of myemphasis has been working in
male teams, and I would like tohave a broader conversation.
I would like to see how we cancurate and create a different
archetype for women working insport, but also for men, who
(44:32):
might embrace more of thefeminine and, you know, get rid
of some of the old sort of stucktough archetype that we've just
been talking about.
So that's important to me andI'd really like us to broaden
out and be a bit moreimaginative about this idea of
winning and success and whatthat looks like.
So you know, there's parts ofthat that I hope to be able to
(44:54):
do through the role with Rightto Dream, but there's also parts
of it that are being able tocontribute a little bit to a
broader conversation about whowe are and how we live.
Sue Anstiss (45:06):
Wow, what an incredible woman.
It's clear to see why Pip hashad such an enormous impact
across her life.
I loved hearing about Pip'slink to Loughborough University.
Other trailblazing guests onthis podcast who studied or
lectured there include footballlegend Jill Scott, british
Paralympic champion BaronessTanni Grey-Thompson, head of
(45:29):
women's football at the FA, dameSue Campbell and the CEO of the
Youth Sport Trust, ali Oliver.
If you'd like to know more aboutthe other work I do, including
the Women's Sport Collective, anetwork for all women working in
sport, please visitfearlesswomencouk.
This is also where you can findout more about all my incredible
(45:51):
guests from this and theprevious series, and you can
also listen to the podcast fromthe website too.
You can also sign up toChanging the Game, our free
weekly newsletter thathighlights all the latest
developments in the world ofwomen's sport.
Thanks again to Barclays fortheir kind support of the Game
Changers, to Sam Walker, ourexecutive producer, rory Ouskery
(46:15):
on sound production and KateHannan behind the scenes making
sure everything runs smoothly.
Next week, in the final episodeof this series, I'm so excited
to talk to Laura Woods, recentlyvoted the SJA Sports Presenter
of the Year.
Laura is a regular on SkySports and the host of Talk
(46:36):
Sports' flagship SportsBreakfast, one of the most
listened to shows in the UK,laura talks very openly about
her journey from being a runnerat Sky Sports in 2009, working
her way up through thebroadcasting ladder in
production before moving infront of the camera.
Laura's outgoing nature and herunflappable personality make her
(47:00):
one of the most in-demandsports presenters right now it's
like walking down a road with aload of potholes and sometimes
you can skip over them andsometimes they completely suck
you up.
I find the kind of get back inthe kitchen comments, I find
those they're.
They annoy me a little bit, butthen sometimes I'm kind of like
well, that's such an old jokeand if you haven't come up with
(47:21):
anything new for the lasthowever many years, I feel sorry
for you.
If your opinion of a woman isgenuinely that she needs to stay
in the kitchen, you haven'tevolved either.
Like what are you doing?
The Game Changers?
Fearless women in sport.
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