August 28, 2025 • 43 mins
A few years ago, a young woman was interning at the Original Wine of the Month Club. Her internship revolved around social networking, office duties, and one particular job that may have set her career path. Lisa Kassabian was to write the talking points for all my podcasts that featured a woman in wine.
She would research the guest, write up peritnent points, present the to me and together we would redirect or correct. When that work was completed, Lisa was invited on set to hear how her questions worked and how the guest would respond. Maybe I had something to do with it, it would certainly make sense...because eventually, Lisa became an Enology student at Cornell University.
At the University, all students in this curriculum are required to do an internship before they graduate. This is the story of Lisa's internship at the famed Chateau Haut Bailly.
For sure, if you want to know the insights a young wine Enology student might gain from the academic side and the practical side of wine...this is the episode.
Lisa Kassabian never expected that an afterschool “All About Grapes” club would spark a journey from a Los Angeles vineyard to the heart of Bordeaux. In this episode of Wine Talks, you’ll discover how a childhood passion for science—and a hobby vineyard at home—led Lisa from California to Cornell, and ultimately, to an eye-opening internship in France. You’ll gain a rare behind-the-scenes view of the very real intersections between wine, science, and culture, as Lisa reveals how pruning and fermentation chemistry connect to centuries of tradition. Listen closely and you’ll learn what really happens when theory meets the terroir: from tackling grapevine netting and barrel racking to navigating French hospitality, language barriers, and immaculate cellars. Through Lisa’s first-hand stories, you’ll hear what distinguishes French winemaking—the meticulous attention to detail, relentless innovation, and deep cultural ties that set Bordeaux apart from Napa. Ever wonder what it’s like to balance the academic rigor of soil science classes with tasting your family’s Sauvignon Blanc in sunny California? Or how it feels to pour wine at a charity gala in a historic French château? This episode peels back the reality of building a global wine career, from landing international internships to learning the business beyond the classroom, and even discovering which French pastries pair best with your morning commute. By the end, you’ll understand not only the pathways women are carving into the industry, but also why every bottle holds a world of stories, science, and adventure—a revelation sure to inspire future vintners and aficionados alike.
Cornell University
https://www.cornell.edu
UC Davis (University of California, Davis)
https://www.ucdavis.edu
Château Haut-Bailly
https://www.haut-bailly.com
Sequoia Grove Winery
https://www.sequoiagrove.com
Smith Haut Lafitte
https://www.smith-haut-lafitte.com
Château Lynch-Bages
https://www.lynchbages.com
Château Giscours
https://www.giscours.com
#wineTalks #LisaKassabian #PaulKalemkiarian #viticulture #enology #CornellUniversity #wineinternship #ChateauHautBailly #Bordeaux #NapaValley #womeninwine #Frenchwine #wineeducation #vineyardmanagement #winemaking #winescience #Frenchculture #wineindustry #winecareers #winepodcast
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
I've always loved science and nature, and I feel like wine,
viticulture and enology just pairs both of the
science and the wine together. Sit back and grab a
glass. It's Wine Talks with Paul K.
Hey, welcome to Wine Talks with Paul Kay. And we are in studio today in
(00:20):
beautiful Southern California, about to have a conversation with college
student Lisa Casabi. And introductions in just a minute. Yes, I am the
guy that sold 17 million bottles and tasted 100,000
wines the way all by myself.
But that's not why we're here today, because Wine Talk started because of those 100,000
wines I tasted. There's 100,000 stories to tell.
(00:42):
And today, I'm really delighted and excited to hear from Lisa Kazabian.
She is a student at Cornell University, going into her third year
of the College of Agriculture and Life Sciences with a
specialty in viticulture and enology. Welcome to
the show. Thank you. And thank you for having me. You're welcome.
Well, you sat on the other side of this studio before, right? You
(01:06):
used to write. I used to write the little notes for you
about the people who you had on the podcast. And I
remember sitting on the couch over there on the other side of the podcast, watching
you ask people questions, and now I'm on the other side. It's
cool. It's like, what the heck? Yeah. What is he talking about? And
you actually. But you were. You. I don't think you were even
(01:29):
thinking about the wine trade then, were you? No, I was. I
mean, I was just thinking this is such a cool experience, and
it would just be nice to apply my sciences into something.
But this. This adventure is amazing.
Actually. I had this idea yesterday because a guy delivered
your chateau by you wines, and he goes, is this a bar?
(01:53):
And I go, no, but wouldn't that be cool if this, like, setup
was like a wine tasting room, and then once in a while there's a podcast
going on while people are enjoying their wines? It would be really cool. That'd
be fun. Yeah. Well, we'll pour some Chateau Bailly while we're doing that.
So why did you get. I know that your parents built a little
vineyard in the Valley in Los Angeles and
(02:15):
growing Cabernet and Merlot, I think. Right. And was that just
for fun that they did that? Yeah, they've always had
a little passion for wine and wine making,
and they started this little passion project,
and it's been growing ever since. We sell about
5,000 bottles, which is so small, but
(02:37):
it's growing. I didn't Realize it was that much. Yeah,
It's a really cool adventure. And that's what
brought me into the wine industry because I've always loved science
and nature, and I feel like wine and viticulture and
enology just pairs both of the science and the wine
together. And like their wines. Yes.
(03:02):
Not to be biased, but I. I love it. I had to put that out
there. Yeah, no, I absolutely love it. So,
like, I don't know, this must be on their third or fourth vintage by
now. And they're picking the grapes, they're fermenting them. And you
participated in most of that. Yes, and I have a
bottle after my name, which is
(03:24):
a Sauvignon Blanc. And
it's an amazing, nice, crisp, easy, drinkable
wine. And I think it's perfect for a nice hot summer day,
especially in sunny California. You sound like a real
wine person. Yeah. Learning to be.
Is it what it's called? Lisa's blend? I wish. What do they call
(03:46):
it? Just Lisa. Oh, just Lisa. Just. Okay, great. Yeah.
So we, along the way, which we are, I've tasted
the wines, of course. In fact, your dad brought in the first vintage of the
Cabernet grown on the property, and he was a little disappointed in what it
tasted like the night before. But then when we opened it here in the shop,
I go, you know, this is very palatable, you know, particularly for a first vintage
(04:08):
from an area that's not known for wine, et cetera, et cetera. And the wine
had flattened out. He goes, I didn't realize it would change like that. It changed
a lot because of the acid, but
slowly then it seems that this sort of interest in enology,
you always like science kind of developed. You sat here, wrote some
talking points, and I think I deliberately had you do talking points for most of
(04:30):
the women that came in here, because women in wine is a very
hot topic right now. Right. And winemakers,
there's like 25% of all winemakers that come out of college are women. But that's
gone up considerably and they're still looking for more executive
positions for women in the business. But when
(04:50):
did you say, you know what, I think I'm going to pursue this?
It was my junior year in high school, and
I wanted to do something with the science and the nature,
and I started All About Grapes club
at my high school. And I think that's where it really just took off because
(05:11):
I. We worked at the vineyard at my high school
and I brought in so many different things that were grape
related products like Concord Grape
Jam and just grapes itself and juice and
this and that. And I think that's where it really just took off, because
somebody had mentioned that you could use grapes not only for wine,
(05:34):
but also for, like, you know, topical cosmetics
and this and that. And I just, I just fell in love with the
idea of science and using grapes for
wine and just everything. Just. I was a member of the
backgammon club in high school and like the
old movie club, and here a young girl starts the All About Grapes
(05:56):
club. Yeah, they didn't allow this. I mean, they allowed this because you didn't say
it was all about wine. You said it was all about grapes. It was. It
was all about grapes. Yeah. You're not telling me that you had little wine coolers
in the back at the meetings or anything like that? No. You
know, it's funny, you said that about the curative and the health benefits
of, of grapes in general, which is in the book in front of you,
(06:17):
the French Paradox. But, you know, you. Were
you getting it? When we get to France, we're going to talk about Smith Old
Lafitte, because they have a very famous cosmetic brand. Right. That came from there.
But. So when you went out to find college to
decide where you're going to go and your brother had gone to Cornell, you applied.
Did you only apply to enology schools or did you apply? No, I
(06:38):
applied to a bunch of other schools as well, but the
three schools that really spoke to me were
all related to viticulture and enology, and
I got into Cornell and UC Davis as well. And
I mean, I picked Cornell because my older brother was there,
(06:59):
and it was a familiar school to me, but I think just
vidiculture really spoke to me, and
I honestly would not think of another school to be
in. And you went to Napa a couple times and sort of talked to some
people, essentially through Sequoia Grove. Yeah. And
would that. Was that interesting? Yes, it was very
(07:21):
interesting to see just everything, like,
from. You could see everything from the start of the
grapes, the vines, all the way through to the
actual product of the wine. And I just, I loved
seeing the whole entire process being able to see and even
implement everything into it. So I, I.
(07:44):
So you went, you got accepted and you got excited. I remember, I remember the
day. Yeah. The phone calls, texts Lisa got,
and you got there. What was your first. Were you
intimidated? Was it, Was there. Was the science too much? Was it, Was it
what you expected? It's okay for it not to be what you expected. Just wonder.
Your initial Impressions were when you got there, started this thing. I didn't
(08:08):
realize how much of science was actually
applied into the enology and the viticulture
side. So I was just a little bit like,
whoa, there's so much in the sciences. But
it's amazing learning about all these
different types of science classes and all these different stuff.
(08:30):
It's cool seeing how much applies into it. So
you studies, you're studying fermentation sciences.
Yeah. Agriculture? Yeah. Like soil
science, plant science, like orgo, chemistry, bio,
all those types of classes. And so was that what
you expected? Were you like, I don't know,
(08:54):
I want to do that. I should have gone into architecture. I mean,
I knew there was a lot of sciences into it, but I didn't, I wasn't
really expecting anything. I just, I, I knew science
was going to be in it. But, you know, it's interesting and I've brought this
up many times, there are two paths in this industry and then
there's the hybrid of the path. One path is what you're doing and then
(09:16):
now you became a hybrid of that path. But the other path is, you know,
these people start in the cellar, washing down the tanks and cleaning the
vineyard and I mean, cleaning the winery. And then they go in the vineyard and
they don't go to any school for it. Right. To me,
that's a really interesting dynamic for this, for an, for any industry. Like, you
probably couldn't do that with semiconductors because you'd have to know something
(09:38):
about computer science. But you can with
wine and you can make good wines on, on both paths. One of them
gives you a more worldly look at it, you know, more detailed look of the
science and the chemistry, etc. But the other one is like, you know, the way
they made wine all the time. Right. It's
such an organic product. Right. So I
(10:00):
want to know at Cornell, at school, and you're in New York,
right? Is it New York? Yeah, yeah, I forgot.
How do you get any practical experience on what
is going to go on in your career besides classroom and
learning about the chemistry? How do they sort of prepare you for
the idea you're going to be in a vineyard? Well,
(10:23):
I mean, our classes are more so catered towards that. We
have last year I
viticulture or vineyard management class
and I learned about netting, pruning
and all these different types of
subjects that are involved in vineyard management.
(10:45):
And then I also took a bunch of wines
classes like Grapes to Wines with Gavin Sachs. And
it was, it's a cool
place to learn about all the different molecules that are
involved in the winemaking process. And
(11:06):
in one of my other classes, you know, we learned about
how much fermentation actually exudes
out carbon dioxide. So I feel
like with all these little different, detailed things
within the class, we learn about wine. And then outside of
class, it's at our vineyard, at home,
(11:28):
or just, you know, searching up different types of things. If
anything comes to mind, it's. Well, the reason I brought that up is
like, you know, business school. Business school's great.
And what I find really interesting in the wine trade is that many, many, many,
many come out of their master's program at Harvard, and they come out
of Cornell, they come out of Columbia, and then they apply to it, they
(11:51):
try to apply their business school methods to the wine business.
It never works. Right, right. And so I'm wondering
then what you're learning so far, and you're going into the third year, so you've
had enough under your belt. And understand when you got to France, and we'll tell
the listeners in a second what happened, that
there was a huge distance between sitting in the
(12:13):
classroom and going in the vineyard. Let me
explain to the listeners real fast. Lisa worked
here. Then at Cornell, they said they want you to.
They want you to have an internship. Right. Or is it required to have an
internship? Yeah, it's required to have an internship. Before you graduate or
like at some point. Yeah, before you graduate. I mean, anytime
(12:34):
before. Yeah. And so when we heard this, we were going to
find a place and it could be anywhere in the world. Right. They don't really
care. Yeah. Why did you, why did you want to go to France?
Well, because your mom speaks French. Yeah. But also
because France is a well renowned and well
known winemaking region. So I thought
(12:57):
it would be perfect. I mean,
I could live there, so it's okay. I just wondered because there's so many places
to go. And Napa, of course, in California, which is, and I think one of
the big differences between the two. Let's just say California would be the
New World versus Old World being New World being Australia,
New Zealand, America, South America. Those are all what they
(13:19):
consider New World appellations. And then you got this history
like that's been developing for hundreds of years and the wine trade
in France, and that's why it's so inspiring. Right. So we set out to
find you an internship, Right? Yeah. And you, you
researched a lot. I, I did, I did. And I
mean, you introduced me to Veronique and her team
(13:42):
at Chateau Haute Bayou, which was an amaz
with such an innovative and wonderful team. And
I want to thank you again for. For
that introduction. But it. I mean, I
honestly wouldn't have asked for
really anything else, because as you were saying before,
(14:05):
that internship really did open
my eyes to how much Cornell preps
you for the real world, because everything
that we were doing in the vineyard or in.
In the racking as well, in the cellar, the
vineyard really just like, it was
(14:27):
basically what I studied at school, which was
so amazing. That's pretty much what the question. But let's go back to. For the.
For your. For your fellow students
and anybody that's listening, that has a child or a.
Is going to think about going in that career
you set out. We. We sent a bunch of emails out.
(14:49):
We didn't even know if. If wineries had internships,
particularly, you know, in June, which is not. There's not a whole lot going on.
Right. In the winery. Right. And you. You put a fair amount of work
into trying to at least send letters, you send questions. You send
all kinds of things. Right. Did you. I don't. Did you
send anything to Napa Valley at all?
(15:11):
No. You did. It's just all France. It was all France. I love it. I
looked for Napa, but I. I thought it would be such a. More
interesting. Yeah, it would be way more interesting. And then when. When we got the
offer, when. When Veronique responded,
were you scared at that moment? A little bit, yeah. Yeah. I was
nervous to see how. I mean, I would be there for my whole summer. I
(15:33):
was like, oh, my God, that's so much. But, yeah. But now looking
back, I want to go back. Yeah, of course. Yeah.
I desperately. Sandra and I desperately tried. We started a big
project here in Monroe, and there's no way I could leave because the contractor was
on a billion questions. And so I felt. I felt cheated
that didn't get. Come visit you guys while we were doing this. So we'll have
(15:55):
to do it separately. A different occasion when you go back.
So you get to France, your mom went with you to get you
settled. And what was your first
like? I mean, look, you're in a foreign country. They're speaking a foreign
language. You're exposed to the language, or you didn't know the language, and
you're not sure about what your education brought to the table
(16:17):
at this point. Right. And you're probably a little nervous standing there with these people.
Oh, I was so nervous the day before.
I was like, oh, my God, what am I gonna do? Like,
I don't even speak their language. I was so nervous, but actually
getting there the first day, even with the language, barri barrier, I
felt so welcomed, and they were all super
(16:39):
nice, and I got a tour of the vineyard, the office,
everything, and everybody just had a welcoming smile, and
I. I just felt like I was at home. Well, that's great. Yeah. Well, she.
She was the reason. It was because of her demeanor, Veronique
Sanders Van Beek, that I even suggested that.
(17:00):
Because she just wanted a woman in wine. Right. And her
famous quote, which you probably heard a few times, he had the
audacity to hire a woman. And that was about the owner, who I think
the son lives in la. Right, Right. In Santa Cruz. In Santa Cruz Chateau
Bailly. So I thought, okay,
this might be a great match because she is very
(17:22):
welcoming. And one of the comments she made to me after we were
done on our podcast, and I'm going to start producing some reels out of that,
was she goes, I felt very comfortable having
a conversation with you, which I'm not trying to pat myself on the back, but
the idea, I thought, wow, she felt comfortable. And this is. And I didn't
know her English level. I didn't know anything at that point that this would be
(17:43):
potentially a good match. So. But one thing that I think is very funny and
ironic is one of the things you told me when we were looking into doing
this. You said, well, I don't really want to be in the vineyard.
And the first thing they did was put you in the vineyard.
Because I didn't know how much I knew and
(18:04):
how much they were expecting of me. I was just nervous about.
About that. And actually now going
through with the vineyard and going through with everything,
I realized there was really nothing to be nervous about,
which is really good because Cornell had prepped me and I was ready.
But also, they were also very nice. What
(18:27):
was your impression of Bordeaux? Now, I'll tell you
mine. Before I went, you're thinking, this
is rural, you know, countryside, and that's all it is. And
you go from winery to winery, and it's actually not that.
It's a pretty big city. Yeah. And how did you find the city? Do
you find it friendly? You find it food, the whole thing?
(18:50):
Yeah, it was. It was really cool. It was
massive. There was a bunch of different stores, a bunch of different
restaurants, and it was like a mini Paris. And
I wasn't expecting that once I got there, I thought it was going to be
like that, like, more so rural and vineyards kind of Like Napa.
And I got there and I was like, wow.
(19:14):
So, I mean, everybody there were. They were very welcoming
and they're very nice. There was a little hairdresser
right below our apartment, and they,
they were very nice. We. My mom went there to get her
hair done, and I went there to get my nails done as well. And
they were just English, no problem at that point. Yeah. But
(19:38):
they're, they're. They were super nice. And I feel like that goes with everybody
there as well. You know, the, the, the. I went there in
1993. I went to Bordeaux, the
biggest wine tasting event of the world at that point. I was
so angry that I couldn't speak the language. I was so angry
I couldn't communicate because English was not nearly as prevalent as it is today. Right.
(20:00):
And your mom and I were discussing how we want to work on our French,
and her French is much better than mine, but she want. We don't want to
work on our French and they want to work on their English. Yeah. So there's
like a little bit of a push pull when you first meet people like what
you're going to do. Right, right. But. But I was so angry at it.
I. I swore I would never go back. And then my father
speaking French. I decided before he passed away that I would learn so
(20:24):
we could just chat and remember his childhood, because that's when he learned it.
And now I can't wait to go back and have become this Francophile because
there's something so amazingly interesting about the history of.
Of that part of the world. Right. How did, how was
your French? No problem.
(20:45):
I mean, I, I learned a little bit. Do some words out there.
Right, right. You know, because there is a. There is a hybrid language which
is like, you throw. You speak English, we throw some French words in there. Vice
versa, you know, French with some English. Right. But are you inspired to possibly
learn now? Yeah, no, I definitely am. Especially
after this. I for sure am. Because for me, when I
(21:07):
go, I don't want to leave because I don't. I don't want to ever want
to have to give it up. Right. And I want to continue practicing. So you
know what I did yesterday? I went to chapter because I.
And I said, write me a lesson. This is my level of French.
Write me a lesson. I want a vocabulary lesson. I want grammar, and I want
to be able to speak, you know, so wrote this whole thing. So
(21:29):
hour one, then I did hour two, and yesterday. Tomorrow I'm going to do hour
three. It does the whole thing for You. It progresses. I don't have to pay
somebody. It works really good. It
looks really cool. It really works. Oh, my God.
You're in the vineyard, you're working in the winery. And it
sounded like they put you through all kinds of things, not just vineyard management, but
(21:50):
you went into the office. You went into the winery itself. What did you do
in the office? And what did you do in the winery? So to start with
the winery, I was part of their racking.
So we clean the barrels, move the wine
from the barrel into the tank, and then back into the
barrel. And I was helping out with
(22:12):
that. And then also in the office,
I helped out with their charity
event that they had, which was called Back to Care. Oh,
you did. You worked on that? Yeah. Wow. And
I just helped assemble some of their little
parting gifts or. And the speaking
(22:35):
notes as well, and
just here and there, whatever they needed help with. And I also helped with
their hospitality. So they had a bunch of industry
tours, and I helped set up for the little
dinners and put, like, the silverware in
a. Very nice and precise. In the setting.
(22:57):
Very important. Yeah. And.
How was. How was your opinion of this is
what amazed me about my daughter Lisa, when we went and visited her at
pastry school. How immaculate
the French keep their kitchens, their. The
wineries, and of course, the winery requirement because of bacteria and yeast
(23:19):
and everything floating around the air. Right. Was that revealing to
you? Yeah. Even just
through the. Through the tours, everything was just so precise. It
had to be like, all in a straight line and
it was all very precise. And then in the winery as well, they
had little hidden cupboards for the water or for the
(23:42):
electricity. And the tanks
itself were under all these different panels to make it as if
there was nothing there. And I just thought that was so cool
and how their attention to detail was amazing.
Do you think that's a major difference in cultural
exchanges between American America, which I'm not dissing America, of
(24:05):
course, but that there's. You see a stark difference
between the way the cultures treat those things.
Yeah, no, I definitely did see that. Can you imagine a kitchen, a restaurant
in America? Well, there are many, but I mean, a typical restaurant
in, like Los Angeles have a kitchen is spotless as
they are in France. Yeah. I mean, both. I think
(24:27):
both can get. Can do it. Yeah. And get equally
as spotless. But it was. It was so cool walking
through the winery and everything was just so tucked away and
put away. It was. That winery, for the listeners,
is touted as one of the great innovations in wine
trade. Let's get in the wine business a little bit, see. See if we can
(24:50):
peel some things back. You know, the industry is in a difficult period right
now and innovation is this big word, right, that. Then I even
interviewed the professor of innovation and the business school of
USC to get an idea from him and he had. It was very difficult to
explain what in the wine trade would be considered
innovative. Like you're a student. Would you think putting
(25:12):
wine in a can is an innovation? Yeah, I mean, I suppose
from a definitive innovation is a good innovation. That's the difference. You don't have to
answer that bag in the
box, you know, these bladders. Is that a good innovation? It's innovative. Is it? Does
it advance the needle of the kinds of things, you know, Chateau Bailly
does? I don't think so. But what she did,
(25:35):
that winery is extraordinarily innovative. Right. So when they did
this charity event, which is a famous bike ride, how much? Been a
few years they've done this. I think three or four years. And they raised a
lot of money. Yeah, but did they do it
upstairs on top of the barrels? Is that where they were on top of the
tanks or the one underneath. It for the event? Yeah, it's like the
(25:56):
dinners or whatever they did. Yeah, they did it in their old winery.
So it was. Oh, really? It's now turned into like a boutique and a reception
area where they have massive dinners and they had
hosted it there. Oh, man. I thought because they got that
cool winery and they got the glass tasting room and then they got. You
walk around the new winery and then they. You can have events
(26:19):
underneath and on top. On top of the barrels and everything. Yeah, they
did. Do they have done events over there? But
this event, they didn't. Huh. So it was the other building
and. In the back across the. The way from the
chateau. Yeah. Interesting. Okay. Well, she,
she's. And then if. What's interesting to me about
(26:42):
Veronika is that, you know, her husband is the director of Chateauguy.
Score. So, you know, that's. I wonder. Okay, let me ask you,
what do you think they talk about when they get home? I. I have
no idea. I was actually thinking about that. Yeah, I didn't. I have
no idea. I think, you know, I would go home with Auntie Sander and
we, we would continue to talk about what happened during the day. And then that
(27:04):
got, you know, like, wow, we're doing this 24 hours a day. But, you know,
wine. Let me ask you this, this different. Do you
feel like there's A difference in the lifestyle of
wine in France, in the lifestyle of
wine in America? Probably, yes. I
don't know how to pinpoint and what to pinpoint it at, but.
(27:28):
Probably yes. It just seems to me that at least in the Napa Valley
and I had a conversation yesterday was from Paso Robles, and it was a little
bit different viewpoint of the business,
but seems like so much of the Napa Valley is wealth
that's been created elsewhere. And then they come and we want to buy
the lifestyle of the wine business. Right. And then we
(27:50):
realize how hard it is. Yeah. And then. But France,
particular place like Chateau Bay, where she's been running it for like 20 years or
something. Right, right. Where it is. It is the lifestyle. It is
life as part of the culture of
the business. That's the part that's romantic to me.
Yeah. No, I really like that too. Especially that
(28:13):
everybody's just so into it and all the workers,
too. Everybody just loves it. They love the lifestyle.
They are really just drawn to it. Is there
any conversation about the current state of
affairs, the current state of business in France about wine?
I Don't they really discuss that. No. They want the harsh reality to settle
(28:36):
in on this. Either they
didn't want to say it or I didn't ask. I. I also didn't ask. So
what are they? What's she making now? They have the Grand Vent, which is the
Chateau Bailly. Right. And then what else do they have? They have
the. The Grandfant Chateau Haute Bailey
2, which is the one lower. And then
(28:57):
HB and. And they have those three lines.
So you guessed it. They stopped making the pop. That
switched. They renamed it. They renamed it to hb. Oh, they did. Okay.
And then Lepard. It used to be
Lepard and Now it's to HB2. So they just
made it. What the. Obviously, the grand vine is the best stuff and the best
(29:18):
barrels, whatever. They do the best vineyards. What's by you
too, it's the one. A little bit lower. And
they also make very good wine, but it's with
the. A little bit lower. But is it the
vineyard difference? So sometimes
(29:40):
when I think it's been happening in Bordeaux, France lately is they're not creating
what they call second labels, even though it's got Roman numeral tune
next to it. But they're actually creating a new brand, which is a diff. There's
a difference between that and what we might do in America, which is.
Well, we have our Caymus and we have the Caymus Blah, blah, blah.
And that's usually in some cases
(30:04):
they go through all the barrels and the best barrels they put in the grand
vault and then the second barrel. So it's really a second label of the second
tier of quality. And I think with Obail and other
chateau in Bordeaux they're actually creating a new brand
that represents something else besides just the
second level of wine. Like an actual sipage difference or
(30:26):
Malone, you know the different cuvee or grapes from a different
part of the vineyard or grapes that are only five years or six
years or seven years old, the vineyards rather than the 25 year old
vineyards. Do you know the differences between those wines yet? I
don't know. I don't know for sure. I'm pretty sure it's,
it's the not as desirable
(30:49):
graves. Right. So it's like because they'll go through the barrels, they'll
taste them all. In some cases they'll say well we're only going to make,
you know, 25000 cases of the grand vault and then the rest is going to
be whatever. Right. So the La Pop then, which means
the Pope as we know your French is coming along.
It is. It came from that vineyard you said you
(31:12):
worked in, which is the other little chateau they have. It's got like a six
bedroom hotel or something. Right. And there's a, there's actually a Pope
bronze statue there in the, in the chateau.
Oh, I didn't see it. Yeah. So I wonder if that's where the grapes were
from that area. From that vineyard. Yes. It's about
like a one or two minute drive from the
(31:35):
Chateau Haute Bayou vineyard and they have their own
little parcels over there and it's,
it's like the hotel and you look out from your
window from probably your room and, and you just see the whole
vineyard. It's, it's magical. Did you go into the little
town right there? Yes. Little cheese shop and a little bakery right
(31:57):
there. Yeah. Do you like that part of the lifestyle? Like you can go down
the street to Boulangerie.
Yeah, Fromagerie. It was, it was nice.
In the morning before I got to work I would, we would go to the
boulangerie, get my lunch and then it be like a two minute drive
down to, to work and then I would start my day. It
(32:19):
was, it was such a nice life. So did you think like why don't we,
why isn't this in America? Why can't we go down the street
and have a decent baguette?
Did you think that I did think that, but, I mean, it's.
It's different. It's different. It's different. It's all part of, like. It's all
built into the system. So when you went touring, since you're there six
(32:41):
weeks, where'd you guys visit? We went to
Chateau Smith Haute Lafitte. Oh, yeah. It was
beautiful. The Cathiards. Yeah. Mr. Cathiard, I
heard. Yes. And then I saw him.
He gave a little bit of a tour at the beginning next to the
barrels that they were making. And then I
(33:05):
also went to Lynchbaj, which
was spectacular. Pretty fancy. Yeah, you
fancy, huh? Yeah. I
saw them do the. It was a whole gravity flow so they wouldn't
use pumping over, and they brought all the grapes
into, like, a little tray, and they, like, lifted it up,
(33:28):
brought it over, down into the barrels. It was. It was cool.
And then I also went to Chateau
Gisco. Yeah. Yeah. I've not been there.
It was beautiful. Yeah. You have to go. It was your husband
at another. Another time. Yes.
(33:49):
Alexander. Alexander. So did you think you'd ever be saying, like,
well, they're doing a gravity flow, you know, here, and they're doing pump over here,
and, like, was that. You say it with such confidence. It's
amazing. Yeah. I mean, you know why I was so nervous getting
into the internship is because I didn't know all of this, and now
coming out of it, I. I feel like I have, like, a little part
(34:11):
of my heart there. That's great. Yeah, you do. It's not like you
feel like you do. Yeah. So that was actually part of the
leading question earlier, which was how stark a difference
was getting into the field, getting into the bowels of a winery. I mean, winery
is not just making wine as business and charity events and all those kinds of
things that go with it. How different. How
(34:33):
real did that feel compared to the
academic side of it? Like, you show up and you're like, wait a minute. You
know, we're in the classroom. Yes. We made. What was that grape you guys made
wine from that was frozen before? Oh, Riesling. Yeah, it was a
Riesling gravy that was like frozen juice. And yet, I mean, that's clearly
not what you experienced in. In France. So
(34:54):
was that exciting? Inspiring,
intimidating? Which maybe all of them, honestly.
Yeah, it was all of them. I was honestly
intimidated and nervous and also excited. Very excited going into
it. But now, after
being through the whole entire internship, I. I look
(35:17):
back and I'm. I'm so happy. And. And so.
Yeah. And the Food. What'd you think of French food?
It was great. I had. I went to
the restaurant called 1925, and
it was so. It. It was so good. You were there six weeks,
so you had to experience. Yeah, we. We went. I think we went
(35:39):
to a new restaurant every single day. Like, so, like, you go to
Armenia and, you know, at least when we first went,
everybody had kebab, everybody had tomatoes, everybody had vegetables. That
was like the cuisine period. And it's not like that anymore. But
in France, you know, if you stick around long enough, you're going to have very
similar meals of very similar places. Beef bourguignon, and there's going to be
(36:02):
escargot and all the rest of the things that are typically French. Right. And so
sometimes you come away going, I really could go for a hamburger right now,
but. Yeah, but what was so special to
Bordeaux is the foie gras. Yeah. Did you like that?
It was okay. Have you had it before in America? No, it was
illegal. If not, maybe still is in California, probably, which is ridiculous.
(36:25):
But I love it. I. I tried it and I.
It was. It was nice. I just don't know. I wouldn't gravitate to
it on a menu another time. Yes. I have tried
snails. They're really good. But what's
a little pastry that's actually known for
and known in Bordeaux is the canel. Yes,
(36:48):
the canele. And, yeah, it's like
a. Maybe like this big, and it's a little bit
domed in the inside or on the top. It was
really good. Is that the little pastry that's like a little mini tower?
Yeah, yeah. That's very famous. Yeah. You enjoyed that? Yeah,
it was pretty good. Yeah, they're pretty good. But there's probably places. So when
(37:10):
we go. When I go to Paris or Bordeaux, I listen
to podcasts of chefs and things and where they go.
Right. And so. And that gives you. This is another thing that's interesting about
European culture, that. That Americans don't have
regional and very specific
pastries and breads. Right, right. We don't really have that. No.
(37:33):
But that's. So I'll give you a little insight on why
that is. The French and the Italians
and most of Europe protect those regionalities.
Right, right. So Bordeaux wine, you can't grow Pinot
Noir. Right? You can, but you can't call it Bordeaux. In Burgundy, you can't
grow Cabernet. You can, but you can't call it Burgundy. And same
(37:56):
with cheeses, same with butter. Right. And I think that
does a Lot to protect the culture in America. You can get Texas
chili in New England, and you can get New England clam chowder on the Southern.
Southern California. Right. And that we've kind of
blurred the lines. So here's the interesting thing for
me. The French love this idea of the New
(38:19):
World. Yeah. Because they can come to America and do whatever they want. Right. They
can grow Syrah, they can grow Pinot Noir, they can grow Chardonnay in places that
they wouldn't expect. And they can eat whatever they want. Whatever they
want and feel whatever they want. But I'm jealous of the fact that they protect
their culture. Yeah. And that's why I want to go back.
It was. It was really cool seeing that. And also, we went to
(38:40):
the. Sorry. We went to the Atlantic coast
and we tried the Dune Blanche. It's like a
little puff pastry. And
it had like, a little. It had like a vanilla and a bit
of a rose water type taste for the
inside filling. And it was. It was so good. You have to try it. That's
(39:03):
the. Because you're bars guy. Yeah.
And you like rose water. Yeah. It was kind of like the bone cheek.
That was the most disgusting thing I ever tasted when I went to Sandra's first
Christmas dinner. Really screams disgusting.
Maybe it was it rose water or it was almond something. There was
something else, but. But it was so good. You have to try it.
(39:25):
And so in Paris, what did you find in Paris? We're actually out of time.
What. What did you like about Paris? Is that you've been to Paris before, though,
right? Yeah. Yeah. It was just a weekend trip because the
weekends I had off, we went up to Paris and we just walked
around, went into different restaurants. Nothing
really is coming to mind right now, but nothing
(39:48):
like, spectacular. I want to go back to this because having this podcast with the
clad stripes. When I explained when you walked in, just for the
listeners, the Clatstrops have written four or five books on the wine trade, but
her last book was on the last Empress of France called.
Her name was Eugenie. And you went to Chateau Guiscord.
And we'll call this the last subject. And so I brought that up.
(40:11):
I told them, I said, you know, my intern was there and she went to
Giscourt and they were talking about Chateau, talking about Eugenie.
Then I realized there's so many
connections between the culture of France and she
had a lot to do with. With Paris. And I'm going
to encourage you to get the book and listen to the audiobook because much of
(40:34):
what you enjoy in Paris is because of her. Wow.
This unsung woman of French
patriarch that literally designed
Paris. Wow. And changed the way it was perceived by the world
was done by this woman. And what did they tell you at Chateauguy Score about
her? Do you remember? Yeah.
(40:56):
They said that on her way down from Paris to beat
she. They made Gisco the castle that
it is now to have her come and
have a little stop on her way down to
Viaris, which is also a very beautiful place that you should go
to. Did you guys go to the hotel there? Yeah, her place. That was her
(41:19):
house. Yeah. Isn't that amazing? Yeah. I didn't realize
that before until I had gone to Jisku and I learned the story. But
everything's. You should go to beauty. It's. What I did was
I told the way this book reads is very seamless. You can just
read it without stumbling. And. And I kind of
(41:39):
liken PD Cladstrup, the author of the book, to
Gertrude Stein, who is a famous art and
author critic of the 20s. But
the way this book reads, you can either been to Paris many
times and know what she's talking about because of what Eugenie
(42:00):
did and she. The way she explains with it, or you could read the book
and then go to Paris and go, wow, this is what she did. Wow.
That's how important what this woman's contribution was to. To
Paris and France. And then she got exiled. Wow. And lived her life in
exile after that. They ran her out. Did you go to.
I'll finish it. Did you go to Plus Concord,
(42:22):
which is where the Tall Tower is? And. And Van Cleef
is in there and the Ritz and the Ritz Hotel is there. It's all in
this big circle. I don't. I don't know. You've probably been here, but
I probably have. I just don't. It's not like coming to mind. So this
story, when she ran out, there was like
60,000 people. You're talking about 1890. Something like you talk
(42:43):
about a long time ago. Wow. Yelling off with her head.
And she's holed up in this room. And they had to get her out and
she ended up in Spain and then left her life span in exile. But.
And I. And when you go to Paris, you go to Concordia. Oh, my God.
This is like history standing in the middle of this amazing place.
And. And you did in
(43:06):
Chateau Bailly and in Bordeaux and then rounding
out your. Your, Your career or beginning your
career in this industry. Yeah. It's been really fun. To hear your story.
Thank you. And I. And I wish the best in this industry.
You're. You're. Every day is something new
in this trade, and it is really fascinating to live.
(43:28):
Yeah. And when do you go back to school? I go back in two weeks.
And you're just going to tell stories? Yeah. Let's just wrap up with it. You
have to write a paper. What do you have to. What do you have to
tell them? I have to tell him what I did and what I learned from
it, and I'm in the process of writing it right now,
but I have so much to write about.
(43:49):
It's great that it's fresh in your mind. Yeah. Well, thank
you for coming in and taking the time to talk to us. Thank you. I
hope we inspired a few young, promising
vintners to be, you know, to hear your story and
inquire too. Yeah. Thank you for having me. You're welcome.
Cheers.
I've always loved science and nature, and I feel like wine,
viticulture and enology just pairs both of the
science and the wine together. Sit back and grab a
glass. It's Wine Talks with Paul K.
Hey, welcome to Wine Talks with Paul Kay. And we are in studio today in
(00:20):
beautiful Southern California, about to have a conversation with college
student Lisa Casabi. And introductions in just a minute. Yes, I am the
guy that sold 17 million bottles and tasted 100,000
wines the way all by myself.
But that's not why we're here today, because Wine Talk started because of those 100,000
wines I tasted. There's 100,000 stories to tell.
(00:42):
And today, I'm really delighted and excited to hear from Lisa Kazabian.
She is a student at Cornell University, going into her third year
of the College of Agriculture and Life Sciences with a
specialty in viticulture and enology. Welcome to
the show. Thank you. And thank you for having me. You're welcome.
Well, you sat on the other side of this studio before, right? You
(01:06):
used to write. I used to write the little notes for you
about the people who you had on the podcast. And I
remember sitting on the couch over there on the other side of the podcast, watching
you ask people questions, and now I'm on the other side. It's
cool. It's like, what the heck? Yeah. What is he talking about? And
you actually. But you were. You. I don't think you were even
(01:29):
thinking about the wine trade then, were you? No, I was. I
mean, I was just thinking this is such a cool experience, and
it would just be nice to apply my sciences into something.
But this. This adventure is amazing.
Actually. I had this idea yesterday because a guy delivered
your chateau by you wines, and he goes, is this a bar?
(01:53):
And I go, no, but wouldn't that be cool if this, like, setup
was like a wine tasting room, and then once in a while there's a podcast
going on while people are enjoying their wines? It would be really cool. That'd
be fun. Yeah. Well, we'll pour some Chateau Bailly while we're doing that.
So why did you get. I know that your parents built a little
vineyard in the Valley in Los Angeles and
(02:15):
growing Cabernet and Merlot, I think. Right. And was that just
for fun that they did that? Yeah, they've always had
a little passion for wine and wine making,
and they started this little passion project,
and it's been growing ever since. We sell about
5,000 bottles, which is so small, but
(02:37):
it's growing. I didn't Realize it was that much. Yeah,
It's a really cool adventure. And that's what
brought me into the wine industry because I've always loved science
and nature, and I feel like wine and viticulture and
enology just pairs both of the science and the wine
together. And like their wines. Yes.
(03:02):
Not to be biased, but I. I love it. I had to put that out
there. Yeah, no, I absolutely love it. So,
like, I don't know, this must be on their third or fourth vintage by
now. And they're picking the grapes, they're fermenting them. And you
participated in most of that. Yes, and I have a
bottle after my name, which is
(03:24):
a Sauvignon Blanc. And
it's an amazing, nice, crisp, easy, drinkable
wine. And I think it's perfect for a nice hot summer day,
especially in sunny California. You sound like a real
wine person. Yeah. Learning to be.
Is it what it's called? Lisa's blend? I wish. What do they call
(03:46):
it? Just Lisa. Oh, just Lisa. Just. Okay, great. Yeah.
So we, along the way, which we are, I've tasted
the wines, of course. In fact, your dad brought in the first vintage of the
Cabernet grown on the property, and he was a little disappointed in what it
tasted like the night before. But then when we opened it here in the shop,
I go, you know, this is very palatable, you know, particularly for a first vintage
(04:08):
from an area that's not known for wine, et cetera, et cetera. And the wine
had flattened out. He goes, I didn't realize it would change like that. It changed
a lot because of the acid, but
slowly then it seems that this sort of interest in enology,
you always like science kind of developed. You sat here, wrote some
talking points, and I think I deliberately had you do talking points for most of
(04:30):
the women that came in here, because women in wine is a very
hot topic right now. Right. And winemakers,
there's like 25% of all winemakers that come out of college are women. But that's
gone up considerably and they're still looking for more executive
positions for women in the business. But when
(04:50):
did you say, you know what, I think I'm going to pursue this?
It was my junior year in high school, and
I wanted to do something with the science and the nature,
and I started All About Grapes club
at my high school. And I think that's where it really just took off because
(05:11):
I. We worked at the vineyard at my high school
and I brought in so many different things that were grape
related products like Concord Grape
Jam and just grapes itself and juice and
this and that. And I think that's where it really just took off, because
somebody had mentioned that you could use grapes not only for wine,
(05:34):
but also for, like, you know, topical cosmetics
and this and that. And I just, I just fell in love with the
idea of science and using grapes for
wine and just everything. Just. I was a member of the
backgammon club in high school and like the
old movie club, and here a young girl starts the All About Grapes
(05:56):
club. Yeah, they didn't allow this. I mean, they allowed this because you didn't say
it was all about wine. You said it was all about grapes. It was. It
was all about grapes. Yeah. You're not telling me that you had little wine coolers
in the back at the meetings or anything like that? No. You
know, it's funny, you said that about the curative and the health benefits
of, of grapes in general, which is in the book in front of you,
(06:17):
the French Paradox. But, you know, you. Were
you getting it? When we get to France, we're going to talk about Smith Old
Lafitte, because they have a very famous cosmetic brand. Right. That came from there.
But. So when you went out to find college to
decide where you're going to go and your brother had gone to Cornell, you applied.
Did you only apply to enology schools or did you apply? No, I
(06:38):
applied to a bunch of other schools as well, but the
three schools that really spoke to me were
all related to viticulture and enology, and
I got into Cornell and UC Davis as well. And
I mean, I picked Cornell because my older brother was there,
(06:59):
and it was a familiar school to me, but I think just
vidiculture really spoke to me, and
I honestly would not think of another school to be
in. And you went to Napa a couple times and sort of talked to some
people, essentially through Sequoia Grove. Yeah. And
would that. Was that interesting? Yes, it was very
(07:21):
interesting to see just everything, like,
from. You could see everything from the start of the
grapes, the vines, all the way through to the
actual product of the wine. And I just, I loved
seeing the whole entire process being able to see and even
implement everything into it. So I, I.
(07:44):
So you went, you got accepted and you got excited. I remember, I remember the
day. Yeah. The phone calls, texts Lisa got,
and you got there. What was your first. Were you
intimidated? Was it, Was there. Was the science too much? Was it, Was it
what you expected? It's okay for it not to be what you expected. Just wonder.
Your initial Impressions were when you got there, started this thing. I didn't
(08:08):
realize how much of science was actually
applied into the enology and the viticulture
side. So I was just a little bit like,
whoa, there's so much in the sciences. But
it's amazing learning about all these
different types of science classes and all these different stuff.
(08:30):
It's cool seeing how much applies into it. So
you studies, you're studying fermentation sciences.
Yeah. Agriculture? Yeah. Like soil
science, plant science, like orgo, chemistry, bio,
all those types of classes. And so was that what
you expected? Were you like, I don't know,
(08:54):
I want to do that. I should have gone into architecture. I mean,
I knew there was a lot of sciences into it, but I didn't, I wasn't
really expecting anything. I just, I, I knew science
was going to be in it. But, you know, it's interesting and I've brought this
up many times, there are two paths in this industry and then
there's the hybrid of the path. One path is what you're doing and then
(09:16):
now you became a hybrid of that path. But the other path is, you know,
these people start in the cellar, washing down the tanks and cleaning the
vineyard and I mean, cleaning the winery. And then they go in the vineyard and
they don't go to any school for it. Right. To me,
that's a really interesting dynamic for this, for an, for any industry. Like, you
probably couldn't do that with semiconductors because you'd have to know something
(09:38):
about computer science. But you can with
wine and you can make good wines on, on both paths. One of them
gives you a more worldly look at it, you know, more detailed look of the
science and the chemistry, etc. But the other one is like, you know, the way
they made wine all the time. Right. It's
such an organic product. Right. So I
(10:00):
want to know at Cornell, at school, and you're in New York,
right? Is it New York? Yeah, yeah, I forgot.
How do you get any practical experience on what
is going to go on in your career besides classroom and
learning about the chemistry? How do they sort of prepare you for
the idea you're going to be in a vineyard? Well,
(10:23):
I mean, our classes are more so catered towards that. We
have last year I
viticulture or vineyard management class
and I learned about netting, pruning
and all these different types of
subjects that are involved in vineyard management.
(10:45):
And then I also took a bunch of wines
classes like Grapes to Wines with Gavin Sachs. And
it was, it's a cool
place to learn about all the different molecules that are
involved in the winemaking process. And
(11:06):
in one of my other classes, you know, we learned about
how much fermentation actually exudes
out carbon dioxide. So I feel
like with all these little different, detailed things
within the class, we learn about wine. And then outside of
class, it's at our vineyard, at home,
(11:28):
or just, you know, searching up different types of things. If
anything comes to mind, it's. Well, the reason I brought that up is
like, you know, business school. Business school's great.
And what I find really interesting in the wine trade is that many, many, many,
many come out of their master's program at Harvard, and they come out
of Cornell, they come out of Columbia, and then they apply to it, they
(11:51):
try to apply their business school methods to the wine business.
It never works. Right, right. And so I'm wondering
then what you're learning so far, and you're going into the third year, so you've
had enough under your belt. And understand when you got to France, and we'll tell
the listeners in a second what happened, that
there was a huge distance between sitting in the
(12:13):
classroom and going in the vineyard. Let me
explain to the listeners real fast. Lisa worked
here. Then at Cornell, they said they want you to.
They want you to have an internship. Right. Or is it required to have an
internship? Yeah, it's required to have an internship. Before you graduate or
like at some point. Yeah, before you graduate. I mean, anytime
(12:34):
before. Yeah. And so when we heard this, we were going to
find a place and it could be anywhere in the world. Right. They don't really
care. Yeah. Why did you, why did you want to go to France?
Well, because your mom speaks French. Yeah. But also
because France is a well renowned and well
known winemaking region. So I thought
(12:57):
it would be perfect. I mean,
I could live there, so it's okay. I just wondered because there's so many places
to go. And Napa, of course, in California, which is, and I think one of
the big differences between the two. Let's just say California would be the
New World versus Old World being New World being Australia,
New Zealand, America, South America. Those are all what they
(13:19):
consider New World appellations. And then you got this history
like that's been developing for hundreds of years and the wine trade
in France, and that's why it's so inspiring. Right. So we set out to
find you an internship, Right? Yeah. And you, you
researched a lot. I, I did, I did. And I
mean, you introduced me to Veronique and her team
(13:42):
at Chateau Haute Bayou, which was an amaz
with such an innovative and wonderful team. And
I want to thank you again for. For
that introduction. But it. I mean, I
honestly wouldn't have asked for
really anything else, because as you were saying before,
(14:05):
that internship really did open
my eyes to how much Cornell preps
you for the real world, because everything
that we were doing in the vineyard or in.
In the racking as well, in the cellar, the
vineyard really just like, it was
(14:27):
basically what I studied at school, which was
so amazing. That's pretty much what the question. But let's go back to. For the.
For your. For your fellow students
and anybody that's listening, that has a child or a.
Is going to think about going in that career
you set out. We. We sent a bunch of emails out.
(14:49):
We didn't even know if. If wineries had internships,
particularly, you know, in June, which is not. There's not a whole lot going on.
Right. In the winery. Right. And you. You put a fair amount of work
into trying to at least send letters, you send questions. You send
all kinds of things. Right. Did you. I don't. Did you
send anything to Napa Valley at all?
(15:11):
No. You did. It's just all France. It was all France. I love it. I
looked for Napa, but I. I thought it would be such a. More
interesting. Yeah, it would be way more interesting. And then when. When we got the
offer, when. When Veronique responded,
were you scared at that moment? A little bit, yeah. Yeah. I was
nervous to see how. I mean, I would be there for my whole summer. I
(15:33):
was like, oh, my God, that's so much. But, yeah. But now looking
back, I want to go back. Yeah, of course. Yeah.
I desperately. Sandra and I desperately tried. We started a big
project here in Monroe, and there's no way I could leave because the contractor was
on a billion questions. And so I felt. I felt cheated
that didn't get. Come visit you guys while we were doing this. So we'll have
(15:55):
to do it separately. A different occasion when you go back.
So you get to France, your mom went with you to get you
settled. And what was your first
like? I mean, look, you're in a foreign country. They're speaking a foreign
language. You're exposed to the language, or you didn't know the language, and
you're not sure about what your education brought to the table
(16:17):
at this point. Right. And you're probably a little nervous standing there with these people.
Oh, I was so nervous the day before.
I was like, oh, my God, what am I gonna do? Like,
I don't even speak their language. I was so nervous, but actually
getting there the first day, even with the language, barri barrier, I
felt so welcomed, and they were all super
(16:39):
nice, and I got a tour of the vineyard, the office,
everything, and everybody just had a welcoming smile, and
I. I just felt like I was at home. Well, that's great. Yeah. Well, she.
She was the reason. It was because of her demeanor, Veronique
Sanders Van Beek, that I even suggested that.
(17:00):
Because she just wanted a woman in wine. Right. And her
famous quote, which you probably heard a few times, he had the
audacity to hire a woman. And that was about the owner, who I think
the son lives in la. Right, Right. In Santa Cruz. In Santa Cruz Chateau
Bailly. So I thought, okay,
this might be a great match because she is very
(17:22):
welcoming. And one of the comments she made to me after we were
done on our podcast, and I'm going to start producing some reels out of that,
was she goes, I felt very comfortable having
a conversation with you, which I'm not trying to pat myself on the back, but
the idea, I thought, wow, she felt comfortable. And this is. And I didn't
know her English level. I didn't know anything at that point that this would be
(17:43):
potentially a good match. So. But one thing that I think is very funny and
ironic is one of the things you told me when we were looking into doing
this. You said, well, I don't really want to be in the vineyard.
And the first thing they did was put you in the vineyard.
Because I didn't know how much I knew and
(18:04):
how much they were expecting of me. I was just nervous about.
About that. And actually now going
through with the vineyard and going through with everything,
I realized there was really nothing to be nervous about,
which is really good because Cornell had prepped me and I was ready.
But also, they were also very nice. What
(18:27):
was your impression of Bordeaux? Now, I'll tell you
mine. Before I went, you're thinking, this
is rural, you know, countryside, and that's all it is. And
you go from winery to winery, and it's actually not that.
It's a pretty big city. Yeah. And how did you find the city? Do
you find it friendly? You find it food, the whole thing?
(18:50):
Yeah, it was. It was really cool. It was
massive. There was a bunch of different stores, a bunch of different
restaurants, and it was like a mini Paris. And
I wasn't expecting that once I got there, I thought it was going to be
like that, like, more so rural and vineyards kind of Like Napa.
And I got there and I was like, wow.
(19:14):
So, I mean, everybody there were. They were very welcoming
and they're very nice. There was a little hairdresser
right below our apartment, and they,
they were very nice. We. My mom went there to get her
hair done, and I went there to get my nails done as well. And
they were just English, no problem at that point. Yeah. But
(19:38):
they're, they're. They were super nice. And I feel like that goes with everybody
there as well. You know, the, the, the. I went there in
1993. I went to Bordeaux, the
biggest wine tasting event of the world at that point. I was
so angry that I couldn't speak the language. I was so angry
I couldn't communicate because English was not nearly as prevalent as it is today. Right.
(20:00):
And your mom and I were discussing how we want to work on our French,
and her French is much better than mine, but she want. We don't want to
work on our French and they want to work on their English. Yeah. So there's
like a little bit of a push pull when you first meet people like what
you're going to do. Right, right. But. But I was so angry at it.
I. I swore I would never go back. And then my father
speaking French. I decided before he passed away that I would learn so
(20:24):
we could just chat and remember his childhood, because that's when he learned it.
And now I can't wait to go back and have become this Francophile because
there's something so amazingly interesting about the history of.
Of that part of the world. Right. How did, how was
your French? No problem.
(20:45):
I mean, I, I learned a little bit. Do some words out there.
Right, right. You know, because there is a. There is a hybrid language which
is like, you throw. You speak English, we throw some French words in there. Vice
versa, you know, French with some English. Right. But are you inspired to possibly
learn now? Yeah, no, I definitely am. Especially
after this. I for sure am. Because for me, when I
(21:07):
go, I don't want to leave because I don't. I don't want to ever want
to have to give it up. Right. And I want to continue practicing. So you
know what I did yesterday? I went to chapter because I.
And I said, write me a lesson. This is my level of French.
Write me a lesson. I want a vocabulary lesson. I want grammar, and I want
to be able to speak, you know, so wrote this whole thing. So
(21:29):
hour one, then I did hour two, and yesterday. Tomorrow I'm going to do hour
three. It does the whole thing for You. It progresses. I don't have to pay
somebody. It works really good. It
looks really cool. It really works. Oh, my God.
You're in the vineyard, you're working in the winery. And it
sounded like they put you through all kinds of things, not just vineyard management, but
(21:50):
you went into the office. You went into the winery itself. What did you do
in the office? And what did you do in the winery? So to start with
the winery, I was part of their racking.
So we clean the barrels, move the wine
from the barrel into the tank, and then back into the
barrel. And I was helping out with
(22:12):
that. And then also in the office,
I helped out with their charity
event that they had, which was called Back to Care. Oh,
you did. You worked on that? Yeah. Wow. And
I just helped assemble some of their little
parting gifts or. And the speaking
(22:35):
notes as well, and
just here and there, whatever they needed help with. And I also helped with
their hospitality. So they had a bunch of industry
tours, and I helped set up for the little
dinners and put, like, the silverware in
a. Very nice and precise. In the setting.
(22:57):
Very important. Yeah. And.
How was. How was your opinion of this is
what amazed me about my daughter Lisa, when we went and visited her at
pastry school. How immaculate
the French keep their kitchens, their. The
wineries, and of course, the winery requirement because of bacteria and yeast
(23:19):
and everything floating around the air. Right. Was that revealing to
you? Yeah. Even just
through the. Through the tours, everything was just so precise. It
had to be like, all in a straight line and
it was all very precise. And then in the winery as well, they
had little hidden cupboards for the water or for the
(23:42):
electricity. And the tanks
itself were under all these different panels to make it as if
there was nothing there. And I just thought that was so cool
and how their attention to detail was amazing.
Do you think that's a major difference in cultural
exchanges between American America, which I'm not dissing America, of
(24:05):
course, but that there's. You see a stark difference
between the way the cultures treat those things.
Yeah, no, I definitely did see that. Can you imagine a kitchen, a restaurant
in America? Well, there are many, but I mean, a typical restaurant
in, like Los Angeles have a kitchen is spotless as
they are in France. Yeah. I mean, both. I think
(24:27):
both can get. Can do it. Yeah. And get equally
as spotless. But it was. It was so cool walking
through the winery and everything was just so tucked away and
put away. It was. That winery, for the listeners,
is touted as one of the great innovations in wine
trade. Let's get in the wine business a little bit, see. See if we can
(24:50):
peel some things back. You know, the industry is in a difficult period right
now and innovation is this big word, right, that. Then I even
interviewed the professor of innovation and the business school of
USC to get an idea from him and he had. It was very difficult to
explain what in the wine trade would be considered
innovative. Like you're a student. Would you think putting
(25:12):
wine in a can is an innovation? Yeah, I mean, I suppose
from a definitive innovation is a good innovation. That's the difference. You don't have to
answer that bag in the
box, you know, these bladders. Is that a good innovation? It's innovative. Is it? Does
it advance the needle of the kinds of things, you know, Chateau Bailly
does? I don't think so. But what she did,
(25:35):
that winery is extraordinarily innovative. Right. So when they did
this charity event, which is a famous bike ride, how much? Been a
few years they've done this. I think three or four years. And they raised a
lot of money. Yeah, but did they do it
upstairs on top of the barrels? Is that where they were on top of the
tanks or the one underneath. It for the event? Yeah, it's like the
(25:56):
dinners or whatever they did. Yeah, they did it in their old winery.
So it was. Oh, really? It's now turned into like a boutique and a reception
area where they have massive dinners and they had
hosted it there. Oh, man. I thought because they got that
cool winery and they got the glass tasting room and then they got. You
walk around the new winery and then they. You can have events
(26:19):
underneath and on top. On top of the barrels and everything. Yeah, they
did. Do they have done events over there? But
this event, they didn't. Huh. So it was the other building
and. In the back across the. The way from the
chateau. Yeah. Interesting. Okay. Well, she,
she's. And then if. What's interesting to me about
(26:42):
Veronika is that, you know, her husband is the director of Chateauguy.
Score. So, you know, that's. I wonder. Okay, let me ask you,
what do you think they talk about when they get home? I. I have
no idea. I was actually thinking about that. Yeah, I didn't. I have
no idea. I think, you know, I would go home with Auntie Sander and
we, we would continue to talk about what happened during the day. And then that
(27:04):
got, you know, like, wow, we're doing this 24 hours a day. But, you know,
wine. Let me ask you this, this different. Do you
feel like there's A difference in the lifestyle of
wine in France, in the lifestyle of
wine in America? Probably, yes. I
don't know how to pinpoint and what to pinpoint it at, but.
(27:28):
Probably yes. It just seems to me that at least in the Napa Valley
and I had a conversation yesterday was from Paso Robles, and it was a little
bit different viewpoint of the business,
but seems like so much of the Napa Valley is wealth
that's been created elsewhere. And then they come and we want to buy
the lifestyle of the wine business. Right. And then we
(27:50):
realize how hard it is. Yeah. And then. But France,
particular place like Chateau Bay, where she's been running it for like 20 years or
something. Right, right. Where it is. It is the lifestyle. It is
life as part of the culture of
the business. That's the part that's romantic to me.
Yeah. No, I really like that too. Especially that
(28:13):
everybody's just so into it and all the workers,
too. Everybody just loves it. They love the lifestyle.
They are really just drawn to it. Is there
any conversation about the current state of
affairs, the current state of business in France about wine?
I Don't they really discuss that. No. They want the harsh reality to settle
(28:36):
in on this. Either they
didn't want to say it or I didn't ask. I. I also didn't ask. So
what are they? What's she making now? They have the Grand Vent, which is the
Chateau Bailly. Right. And then what else do they have? They have
the. The Grandfant Chateau Haute Bailey
2, which is the one lower. And then
(28:57):
HB and. And they have those three lines.
So you guessed it. They stopped making the pop. That
switched. They renamed it. They renamed it to hb. Oh, they did. Okay.
And then Lepard. It used to be
Lepard and Now it's to HB2. So they just
made it. What the. Obviously, the grand vine is the best stuff and the best
(29:18):
barrels, whatever. They do the best vineyards. What's by you
too, it's the one. A little bit lower. And
they also make very good wine, but it's with
the. A little bit lower. But is it the
vineyard difference? So sometimes
(29:40):
when I think it's been happening in Bordeaux, France lately is they're not creating
what they call second labels, even though it's got Roman numeral tune
next to it. But they're actually creating a new brand, which is a diff. There's
a difference between that and what we might do in America, which is.
Well, we have our Caymus and we have the Caymus Blah, blah, blah.
And that's usually in some cases
(30:04):
they go through all the barrels and the best barrels they put in the grand
vault and then the second barrel. So it's really a second label of the second
tier of quality. And I think with Obail and other
chateau in Bordeaux they're actually creating a new brand
that represents something else besides just the
second level of wine. Like an actual sipage difference or
(30:26):
Malone, you know the different cuvee or grapes from a different
part of the vineyard or grapes that are only five years or six
years or seven years old, the vineyards rather than the 25 year old
vineyards. Do you know the differences between those wines yet? I
don't know. I don't know for sure. I'm pretty sure it's,
it's the not as desirable
(30:49):
graves. Right. So it's like because they'll go through the barrels, they'll
taste them all. In some cases they'll say well we're only going to make,
you know, 25000 cases of the grand vault and then the rest is going to
be whatever. Right. So the La Pop then, which means
the Pope as we know your French is coming along.
It is. It came from that vineyard you said you
(31:12):
worked in, which is the other little chateau they have. It's got like a six
bedroom hotel or something. Right. And there's a, there's actually a Pope
bronze statue there in the, in the chateau.
Oh, I didn't see it. Yeah. So I wonder if that's where the grapes were
from that area. From that vineyard. Yes. It's about
like a one or two minute drive from the
(31:35):
Chateau Haute Bayou vineyard and they have their own
little parcels over there and it's,
it's like the hotel and you look out from your
window from probably your room and, and you just see the whole
vineyard. It's, it's magical. Did you go into the little
town right there? Yes. Little cheese shop and a little bakery right
(31:57):
there. Yeah. Do you like that part of the lifestyle? Like you can go down
the street to Boulangerie.
Yeah, Fromagerie. It was, it was nice.
In the morning before I got to work I would, we would go to the
boulangerie, get my lunch and then it be like a two minute drive
down to, to work and then I would start my day. It
(32:19):
was, it was such a nice life. So did you think like why don't we,
why isn't this in America? Why can't we go down the street
and have a decent baguette?
Did you think that I did think that, but, I mean, it's.
It's different. It's different. It's different. It's all part of, like. It's all
built into the system. So when you went touring, since you're there six
(32:41):
weeks, where'd you guys visit? We went to
Chateau Smith Haute Lafitte. Oh, yeah. It was
beautiful. The Cathiards. Yeah. Mr. Cathiard, I
heard. Yes. And then I saw him.
He gave a little bit of a tour at the beginning next to the
barrels that they were making. And then I
(33:05):
also went to Lynchbaj, which
was spectacular. Pretty fancy. Yeah, you
fancy, huh? Yeah. I
saw them do the. It was a whole gravity flow so they wouldn't
use pumping over, and they brought all the grapes
into, like, a little tray, and they, like, lifted it up,
(33:28):
brought it over, down into the barrels. It was. It was cool.
And then I also went to Chateau
Gisco. Yeah. Yeah. I've not been there.
It was beautiful. Yeah. You have to go. It was your husband
at another. Another time. Yes.
(33:49):
Alexander. Alexander. So did you think you'd ever be saying, like,
well, they're doing a gravity flow, you know, here, and they're doing pump over here,
and, like, was that. You say it with such confidence. It's
amazing. Yeah. I mean, you know why I was so nervous getting
into the internship is because I didn't know all of this, and now
coming out of it, I. I feel like I have, like, a little part
(34:11):
of my heart there. That's great. Yeah, you do. It's not like you
feel like you do. Yeah. So that was actually part of the
leading question earlier, which was how stark a difference
was getting into the field, getting into the bowels of a winery. I mean, winery
is not just making wine as business and charity events and all those kinds of
things that go with it. How different. How
(34:33):
real did that feel compared to the
academic side of it? Like, you show up and you're like, wait a minute. You
know, we're in the classroom. Yes. We made. What was that grape you guys made
wine from that was frozen before? Oh, Riesling. Yeah, it was a
Riesling gravy that was like frozen juice. And yet, I mean, that's clearly
not what you experienced in. In France. So
(34:54):
was that exciting? Inspiring,
intimidating? Which maybe all of them, honestly.
Yeah, it was all of them. I was honestly
intimidated and nervous and also excited. Very excited going into
it. But now, after
being through the whole entire internship, I. I look
(35:17):
back and I'm. I'm so happy. And. And so.
Yeah. And the Food. What'd you think of French food?
It was great. I had. I went to
the restaurant called 1925, and
it was so. It. It was so good. You were there six weeks,
so you had to experience. Yeah, we. We went. I think we went
(35:39):
to a new restaurant every single day. Like, so, like, you go to
Armenia and, you know, at least when we first went,
everybody had kebab, everybody had tomatoes, everybody had vegetables. That
was like the cuisine period. And it's not like that anymore. But
in France, you know, if you stick around long enough, you're going to have very
similar meals of very similar places. Beef bourguignon, and there's going to be
(36:02):
escargot and all the rest of the things that are typically French. Right. And so
sometimes you come away going, I really could go for a hamburger right now,
but. Yeah, but what was so special to
Bordeaux is the foie gras. Yeah. Did you like that?
It was okay. Have you had it before in America? No, it was
illegal. If not, maybe still is in California, probably, which is ridiculous.
(36:25):
But I love it. I. I tried it and I.
It was. It was nice. I just don't know. I wouldn't gravitate to
it on a menu another time. Yes. I have tried
snails. They're really good. But what's
a little pastry that's actually known for
and known in Bordeaux is the canel. Yes,
(36:48):
the canele. And, yeah, it's like
a. Maybe like this big, and it's a little bit
domed in the inside or on the top. It was
really good. Is that the little pastry that's like a little mini tower?
Yeah, yeah. That's very famous. Yeah. You enjoyed that? Yeah,
it was pretty good. Yeah, they're pretty good. But there's probably places. So when
(37:10):
we go. When I go to Paris or Bordeaux, I listen
to podcasts of chefs and things and where they go.
Right. And so. And that gives you. This is another thing that's interesting about
European culture, that. That Americans don't have
regional and very specific
pastries and breads. Right, right. We don't really have that. No.
(37:33):
But that's. So I'll give you a little insight on why
that is. The French and the Italians
and most of Europe protect those regionalities.
Right, right. So Bordeaux wine, you can't grow Pinot
Noir. Right? You can, but you can't call it Bordeaux. In Burgundy, you can't
grow Cabernet. You can, but you can't call it Burgundy. And same
(37:56):
with cheeses, same with butter. Right. And I think that
does a Lot to protect the culture in America. You can get Texas
chili in New England, and you can get New England clam chowder on the Southern.
Southern California. Right. And that we've kind of
blurred the lines. So here's the interesting thing for
me. The French love this idea of the New
(38:19):
World. Yeah. Because they can come to America and do whatever they want. Right. They
can grow Syrah, they can grow Pinot Noir, they can grow Chardonnay in places that
they wouldn't expect. And they can eat whatever they want. Whatever they
want and feel whatever they want. But I'm jealous of the fact that they protect
their culture. Yeah. And that's why I want to go back.
It was. It was really cool seeing that. And also, we went to
(38:40):
the. Sorry. We went to the Atlantic coast
and we tried the Dune Blanche. It's like a
little puff pastry. And
it had like, a little. It had like a vanilla and a bit
of a rose water type taste for the
inside filling. And it was. It was so good. You have to try it. That's
(39:03):
the. Because you're bars guy. Yeah.
And you like rose water. Yeah. It was kind of like the bone cheek.
That was the most disgusting thing I ever tasted when I went to Sandra's first
Christmas dinner. Really screams disgusting.
Maybe it was it rose water or it was almond something. There was
something else, but. But it was so good. You have to try it.
(39:25):
And so in Paris, what did you find in Paris? We're actually out of time.
What. What did you like about Paris? Is that you've been to Paris before, though,
right? Yeah. Yeah. It was just a weekend trip because the
weekends I had off, we went up to Paris and we just walked
around, went into different restaurants. Nothing
really is coming to mind right now, but nothing
(39:48):
like, spectacular. I want to go back to this because having this podcast with the
clad stripes. When I explained when you walked in, just for the
listeners, the Clatstrops have written four or five books on the wine trade, but
her last book was on the last Empress of France called.
Her name was Eugenie. And you went to Chateau Guiscord.
And we'll call this the last subject. And so I brought that up.
(40:11):
I told them, I said, you know, my intern was there and she went to
Giscourt and they were talking about Chateau, talking about Eugenie.
Then I realized there's so many
connections between the culture of France and she
had a lot to do with. With Paris. And I'm going
to encourage you to get the book and listen to the audiobook because much of
(40:34):
what you enjoy in Paris is because of her. Wow.
This unsung woman of French
patriarch that literally designed
Paris. Wow. And changed the way it was perceived by the world
was done by this woman. And what did they tell you at Chateauguy Score about
her? Do you remember? Yeah.
(40:56):
They said that on her way down from Paris to beat
she. They made Gisco the castle that
it is now to have her come and
have a little stop on her way down to
Viaris, which is also a very beautiful place that you should go
to. Did you guys go to the hotel there? Yeah, her place. That was her
(41:19):
house. Yeah. Isn't that amazing? Yeah. I didn't realize
that before until I had gone to Jisku and I learned the story. But
everything's. You should go to beauty. It's. What I did was
I told the way this book reads is very seamless. You can just
read it without stumbling. And. And I kind of
(41:39):
liken PD Cladstrup, the author of the book, to
Gertrude Stein, who is a famous art and
author critic of the 20s. But
the way this book reads, you can either been to Paris many
times and know what she's talking about because of what Eugenie
(42:00):
did and she. The way she explains with it, or you could read the book
and then go to Paris and go, wow, this is what she did. Wow.
That's how important what this woman's contribution was to. To
Paris and France. And then she got exiled. Wow. And lived her life in
exile after that. They ran her out. Did you go to.
I'll finish it. Did you go to Plus Concord,
(42:22):
which is where the Tall Tower is? And. And Van Cleef
is in there and the Ritz and the Ritz Hotel is there. It's all in
this big circle. I don't. I don't know. You've probably been here, but
I probably have. I just don't. It's not like coming to mind. So this
story, when she ran out, there was like
60,000 people. You're talking about 1890. Something like you talk
(42:43):
about a long time ago. Wow. Yelling off with her head.
And she's holed up in this room. And they had to get her out and
she ended up in Spain and then left her life span in exile. But.
And I. And when you go to Paris, you go to Concordia. Oh, my God.
This is like history standing in the middle of this amazing place.
And. And you did in
(43:06):
Chateau Bailly and in Bordeaux and then rounding
out your. Your, Your career or beginning your
career in this industry. Yeah. It's been really fun. To hear your story.
Thank you. And I. And I wish the best in this industry.
You're. You're. Every day is something new
in this trade, and it is really fascinating to live.
(43:28):
Yeah. And when do you go back to school? I go back in two weeks.
And you're just going to tell stories? Yeah. Let's just wrap up with it. You
have to write a paper. What do you have to. What do you have to
tell them? I have to tell him what I did and what I learned from
it, and I'm in the process of writing it right now,
but I have so much to write about.
(43:49):
It's great that it's fresh in your mind. Yeah. Well, thank
you for coming in and taking the time to talk to us. Thank you. I
hope we inspired a few young, promising
vintners to be, you know, to hear your story and
inquire too. Yeah. Thank you for having me. You're welcome.
Cheers.
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