August 27, 2023 • 41 mins
All feedback and questions welcome
You have 4 children under 10 and a successful career only to find that your brain tumour has returned more aggressively. Your doctor tells you to prepare for death. The emotional roller coaster is unimaginable. Kate's incredible story brings hope, stability and humility to a precariously dangerous situation. For most of her life Kate was a 'giver' and 'receiving' didn't come easily. A brain tumour is a tough teacher.
Thank you to the Quest for Life foundation for assistance in this episode. If you need help or can volunteer or donate please visit their website: https://questforlife.org.au/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Daniel Baden (00:19):
Kate Szymanski, welcome to 'a patient story.'
Kate Szymansky (00:37):
Thank you very much for having me, Daniel, I
really appreciated theinvitation.
Daniel Baden (00:51):
You were diagnosed with a aggressive form of brain
cancer, and given a short timeto live, but here you are
looking amazing. the listenerscan't see you but you look
amazing.
Kate Szymansky (01:03):
You're very kind, there must have been
vasoline on the lens. That'swhat we like.
Daniel Baden (01:10):
You were first diagnosed in 2009, with an
astrocytoma, which is a lessaggressive form of brain cancer.
And it was dealt with and howwas it dealt with?
Kate Szymansky (01:21):
Yeah, so that was 2009, Daniel and I had a
surgery, I had a resection, itwas removed. And I was really
fortunate because it was in avery accessible area and a non
eloquent area. So there wasn't alot of, I guess, concern going
in other then of course, therewas a lot of concern with the
thought of someone actuallygoing into your brain. And I
(01:42):
remember at that point, I was soconcerned, or just frightened,
fearful, the thought of someone,something happening to your
brain and wondering whether thatwould change me as a person,
there was a lot of fear aroundthat. I remember that very
distinctly. Yes. So at thatpoint, we didn't know what the
pathology was going to be. Allwe knew was that there was a
(02:05):
tumor, they didn't know if itwas going to be malignant, they
don't didn't know how long ithad been there, obviously, had
never having had a brain scanbefore and MRI. So yes, but at
that point, it was still veryconfronting to get the news that
it was brain cancer. In 2009,my, I had four children and my
youngest at that, at that stagewere I had twin girls who were
(02:28):
two and my eldest son was seven.
So that was a huge shock in ofitself, getting that news. And
it took quite a long time torecover, I recall after that
first surgery, and but I didn'thave to have any treatment. So
they felt confident that theywere able to get some margin
around the tumor that wasn'toverly large and, and that no
(02:49):
treatment post operation wasrequired. But I was told at the
time that it would come back,because that's how brain cancer
works. And when it comes back,it comes back a higher grade.
But I, I really think about howI reacted or reacted to that
news. And I'm sort of one ofthose blindly optimistic people,
(03:13):
that sometimes really works inmy favor. And sometimes it
doesn't. And so I was just, Ijust thought, you know what,
this, this isn't, you know, it'snot gonna be a problem, it won't
be I'm, I'm different, I'mdifferent, this isn't going to
it's not going to come backagain. And as a result of that,
so it's sort of really put itreally far out of my mind. But I
(03:35):
guess the downside of that waswhat now looking back
retrospectively, I see that thatwas a real red flag that I
ignored completely, and didn'tmake any changes in my life at
all at the time. If anything, Iprobably just got busier and
more stressed.
Daniel Baden (03:53):
How old were you at the time?
Kate Szymansky (03:55):
So I was 38.
Daniel Baden (03:58):
Okay, and you had four small children. And you
also came from a executive,corporate type role.
Kate Szymansky (04:05):
The first sort of, I guess the first half of my
career was advertising, and thensort of delved into a little bit
of marketing later. But it was,yeah, really high stress sort of
environment. And at that point,between those years of the first
tumor and the second tumor, Iremember I was working at a
particular agency, and it was,it was meant to be part time.
(04:27):
But to be honest, it was reallyfull time hours, I was doing a
lot of after hours work, andobviously with four young
children, trying to make surethat had a lot of balls in the
air, making sure that nothingsort of fell through the cracks
with them. So yeah, it was a lotit was a hell of a lot,
actually.
Daniel Baden (04:43):
But when you had the surgery for the first brain
cancer, we had a briefconversation a little while ago,
and you said that you didn'tmake any lifestyle or dietary
changes, which did surprise me alittle bit to be honest. And I'm
just wondering, you know, whynot? What was your mindset or
your state of mind? And aroundthat, because most people would
go, Okay, I'm going to chill outa bit more. I'm going to drink
(05:05):
more green products or whateverthey do. Yeah. What was going on
for you?
Kate Szymansky (05:11):
Yeah. So Daniel, I think what I mentioned before
about being super optimistic andpositive, and sometimes, you
know, sometimes that's great.
But other times, it's not sogood. And I think at that time,
I, it's just sort of a way ofbeing, I was always putting
everyone else's needs ahead ofmy own. And that's really come
back to bite me. Actually.
Daniel Baden (05:33):
The mother syndrome.
Kate Szymansky (05:34):
That's right there mother syndrome, but
actually times 1000. Okay. Justwhen I know it's sort of, I
guess, the way of my way ofbeing, I guess, I've done a lot
of work since then on that. Yes.
So I think that was my mind. Mymindset was, okay, the doctors
have told me that, but that'snot going to happen to me. So I
think I just felt like head inthe sand. I just thought, if I
(05:56):
put if I just put that to theside, I won't have to worry
about it. It's not going tohappen to me. I'll just keep
going. Like I always do. Justkeep going. Keep going, keep
going.
Daniel Baden (06:08):
Yeah,soldier on.
Kate Szymansky (06:09):
Oh, yes.
Daniel Baden (06:11):
But then it came back in 2012. And it was
diagnosed as a grade 4glioblastoma. And that's a
fairly serious diagnosis, youwere given 18 months to live.
And that's gotta be something,especially when you got a small
family that must just knock youout of the ballpark? How did you
feel?
Kate Szymansky (06:31):
Ah, Daniel, it was, I can't, I can't even
express how devastating thatnews is. I mean, I just
remember, it was awful. Iremember looking into a mirror,
in the in being in my car on theway home from the hospital. And
looking into it, I was in thepassenger seat and looking into
(06:52):
that mirror and just sort of notbelieving that it could be true.
And then I would wake up eachmorning and you know, that
moment where you don't you sortof forget that anything's
happened that blissful moment,and then literally be assaulted
with that sense of completehopelessness, and desperation
for my kids. You know, whenyou've got children, I think
(07:15):
your mortality really no longerhas anything to do with you.
It's just about them. And thethe feeling of them growing up
without their mother was justtoo much to bear. So I yeah, I
was absolutely devastated.
Daniel Baden (07:30):
Do you make a decision to try to explain to
your children what's happening?
Or do you well, for why aroundit
Kate Szymansky (07:38):
at that point, I mean, they were pretty young. So
Max, my eldest was only he wasonly 10. And the youngest, my
twin girls, they were only five.
So we actually got some reallygreat advice from Petrea King,
actually, who is a mentor ofmine now. But at the time, my ex
had met her at a conference. Andshe, she was just incredible.
(08:00):
When we found out this is evenbefore we actually got that
diagnosis. So before thesurgery, we just knew it was
going to be pretty bad. But fromI'd been to the doctor got the
scan results on the Friday, andI was literally going in that
Monday for the surgery. And soover that weekend, I remember
having some conversations withPetrea on the phone, I'd never
(08:22):
met her before, and just tryingto get a sense of how to, you
know, what do we tell the kids,what's sort of appropriate for
them. And very much the adviceat that time was, which I think
is spot on, you know, even atany age, kids get a sense that,
you know, they really understandthey get a sense of what's
happening, and when somethingreally distressing is happening.
(08:43):
And so if you sort of hide ortry and hide conversations from
them, I guess it makes them feellike they're not important
enough in your life to knowwhat's happening with they're
hearing conversations thatyou're having with other people.
So as much as possible, justbeing completely open and honest
with them. But certainly nottelling them anything that was
distressing for them, like youdon't then sort of project
(09:07):
forward and, and give them youknow, sort of statistics or
anything like that. Because Ireally believe no one is no one
can tell anyone how much longerthey've got left on this planet
who knows what none of us know.
So I find that interesting thatmedical practitioners feel like
they should tell people how muchhow much longer they've got, I
(09:27):
never wanted to know, actuallyand I went out of my way not to
know. But yeah,
Daniel Baden (09:31):
so how did you find out then?
Kate Szymansky (09:33):
Well, it was, it was, it was quite devastating,
really because I had actually Imade a real effort not to know I
didn't look anything up. And myneurosurgeon invited me to this
particular evening, and Ithought it was going to be about
sort of good news. They weretalking about brain cancer where
(09:53):
it's at at this point, and I wasthinking, Oh, great. I'm gonna
hear some good news about newtreatments and find out what the
lay of The land is, and this wasI'm not quite sure how long this
was post operation, but I guessit's probably, I'd say within
maybe the first year within thatfirst 12 months. And it was
basically a presentation,talking about mortality rates
(10:17):
and talking about how,basically, they're getting
nowhere with the treatment. Andit was all doom and gloom. And I
was looking at this PowerPointpresentation, just thinking, I
felt so blindsided by it. And Iwas really, really upset by it.
So much so that I sent a verystrongly worded email. Because,
(10:37):
yeah, it was I, they, and theysort of knew my position, and I
was quite disappointed by that.
Daniel Baden (10:43):
Yeah, I understand. Just going back to
your kids for a second, you hada adult conversation with your
young children. And I imaginedthat you may have had some sort
of expectation or inclination asto how they may have responded.
Was that met? I mean, how werethey?
Kate Szymansky (11:01):
When it's sort of hard to know, Daniel, when I
think back to those times, Imean, I'm, I'm a very tactile
person, and hopefully quite awarm person. So I would have
wrapped them up, I would have,you know, the love would have
just been expressed continually.
And it would just would havebeen a lot of reassurance. Like
(11:22):
just that we're doing everythingwe can to get to get mommy
better. And nothing really morethan that. And, and the good
thing is, I really didn't askthe hard questions. Because I
think because there were soyoung, which is was a blessing
in disguise. Really?
Daniel Baden (11:39):
Yeah. Look, it's an important conversation,
because so many people don'tknow how to manage their
children with a terriblediagnosis. So
Kate Szymansky (11:48):
lately, no, I think it's, I would just really
encourage people Yeah, to, tohave those conversations to ask
your children how they're going.
I know a lot more now than I didback then. And, and honestly, if
I went through this again, Iwould do it very differently. A
different person now to who Iwas 11. Yeah, more knowledge and
wisdom around it as well.
Daniel Baden (12:11):
We'll get onto that in a minute. Because that
sounds very interesting. Yourhusband met Petrea King at a
conference and introduced you toportray it. Now I'm just gonna
give Petrea a free plug here.
She doesn't know this. But Ilove Patricia King, she is a
hero of mine. And I've never meta kinder, more genuine
(12:31):
individual. She's a naturopath,a nurse, I think, and just has a
way of managing and dealing withpeople like I've never met
anyone. She runs a foundationcalled the quest for Life
Foundation
(https (12:47):
//questforlife.org.au/) , which I know has helped many
of my patients in the past, andfriends as well. And not just
the patient helps the wholefamily deal with some terrible
situations. If anyone out therelistening would like to get
involved, please get in touchwith the quest for Life
Foundation. If you have somespare cash, and you'd like to
(13:09):
benefit people in the future, oreven in the very near future,
please make a donation to Questfor life. And I just think it's
just one of the best things youcan do for humanity. That was my
free plug. She didn't know. Butlet's go on.
Kate Szymansky (13:26):
Daniel, and as you know, I now do facilitation
and counseling for quest forlife as well. So you know, I
can't sing betrays pay ispraises more loudly and clearly.
And yes, please anyone who candonate because the foundation
doesn't like to turn anyone awayon financial grounds. So when
(13:47):
people donate, it just meansthat many more people have
access to this educationprogram, which is is life
changing? I mean, I can changemy life.
Daniel Baden (13:56):
Yeah, yeah. Good.
Well, I'll put a link to thefoundation on the chat notes
after this. So you were exposedto Petrea and you you did the
one week program there. Yeah.
What is the one week program?
What's it all about?
Kate Szymansky (14:13):
Well, there's three different programs,
Daniel, but the one that I didwith my husband at the time was
called is called quest. It'sjust called Quest for life. And
that particular five day programis very much sort of directed
towards those people goingthrough life threatening
illnesses. That's what it's alittle bit more sort of focused
(14:34):
on. I guess, sort of thepractical side of that people
going through cancer, chronicillness, whereas the other two
programs, one called healingyour life, and one called Moving
Beyond trauma, and MBT movingbeyond beyond trauma is very
much for those dealing with posttraumatic stress and healing
(14:56):
your life is for everything elsereally. For people deal.
linguish major challenges mentalhealth challenges, people going
through grief, they've gonethrough a really messy divorce,
whatever their massive challengeis, that's what that third
program sort of is for everyoneelse. So they're the three
programs. And so the quest forLife program that I went on, and
(15:18):
that I experienced it, it wasprofound. And this is at a time
where I was waking up with nohope. And thinking I'm, I'm done
here. And I walked away fromthat program really changed and
having a sense of hope, for thefirst time since I got that
(15:40):
news. And the reason I had hopewas because it was explained to
me very clearly, that I hadquite a lot of agency in this
much more than I thought interms of control over what was
happening. And that's all aboutunderstanding your internal and
external environment, andessentially creating the most
(16:01):
conducive environment forhealing. So there's some really,
really practical informationthat you learn there, and really
easy to understand and easy toapply to your life immediately
Daniel Baden (16:14):
give you one example of what that might have
been for you. Well, I
Kate Szymansky (16:17):
things like meditation, and how incredibly
helpful it is in terms of,because when you think about
your distress around somethinglike this, the distress is
what's happening up here, I'mpointing at my head, in my mind,
that's where the pain is, that'swhere the anguish is. And what
meditation is all about is beingable to observe those thoughts
(16:40):
and all the feelings associatedwith those thoughts, and be able
to witness them as opposed tobeing overwhelmed and enmeshed
by those feelings. And having asense that that's all there is
you become those overwhelmingfeelings. So meditation wasn't
was just was really made anenormous difference for me in
(17:01):
terms of dealing with with whatI was dealing with. But other
practical things were thingslike having fresh juices, for
example, and what sort of impactthat can have, particularly when
you're going through chemo andradiation therapy. So just
nutrition, there's a lot aroundnutrition. That whole
understanding that when it comesto what we put on ourselves,
(17:23):
what we eat, everything that'sin that interstitial fluid
that's surrounding all of ourcells, understanding that the
chemistry of our emotions is oneof those things as well. And so
understanding then how essentialit or not essential, but
important it is to try andmanage the stressors in our life
(17:43):
and try and encourage a lot oflaughter, some lightness,
because that essentially is whatwe're what we are surrounding
ourselves in. And whatever disease in the body, whatever is
whatever gene might be there,whether that gene expresses or
doesn't express has everythingto do with this, what's
(18:04):
surrounding that cell, which isthe interstitial fluid. And we
have a lot of agency, we have alot of control around what that
environment looks like. And thatis really practical information
that I learned. And that was agame changer,
Daniel Baden (18:18):
you know, to reinforce everything you've just
said a couple of months ago, Iinterviewed Charlie Teo, who's a
well known brain surgeon for apodcast, who the patient he was
talking about also had aglioblastoma, and the gentleman
was on the podcast, but thegentleman lived a wild life,
let's say drinking andwomanizing and eating badly and
(18:40):
all that sort of stuff. And whenhe stopped all that the
glioblastoma shrunk and almostwent away. And after a few
years, the gentleman said, I hadenough of this I want to go
drinking in boozing andwhatever, smoking again, and
then also to come back again.
And I I just thought that wasamazing. And it reinforces
everything you've just spokenabout. Yeah.
Kate Szymansky (19:04):
Yeah.
Fascinating. Play. It's yeah,that is it's really accurate. I
do but I in saying that I stillthink that their balance is
necessary. Because I do rememberwhen I was first diagnosed, just
doing everything to the letter,getting rid of all sugar out of
my diet, getting rid of alcohol,getting rid of coffee, and I
remember mum saying to me,darling, you know, it's maybe
(19:26):
that's just a bit too much atthis point, you know, you're
dealing with so much right now.
It's, it's so it's those, likegoing out for you with your
friends and having a coffee,that connection is actually more
important than anything else.
And I absolutely understand thatnow knowing what I know. And,
you know, I'm actually notsurprisingly quite interested in
neuroscience these days and, andunderstanding that social
(19:49):
connection is one of the biggestthings to support
neuroplasticity. That's reallygood for our brain health. So
it's I think it's obvious See,you can go really hardcore. But
I do think you've got to havesome really nice things what we
were talking about before thechemistry of our emotions, we
want to feel happy. We want tofeel joyful. We want to, we want
(20:09):
to laugh. We want to have
Daniel Baden (20:14):
that from connecting with other human
beings. Yeah,
Kate Szymansky (20:16):
absolutely. And nature and nature. That's a big
one for me.
Daniel Baden (20:20):
Absolutely. It is lots of evidence behind nature
and serious diseases. Well, whathappened? You have this
diagnosis you went to Petrea,you did the course. I presume
you still have the tumor.Whatdid you do?
Kate Szymansky (20:33):
No the tumor was removed. So I had the surgery.
And then we got the pathologyback. So they were able, I was
very lucky, it had grown back inexactly the same place. And they
were able to remove it. So I wasremoved. But even with it
removed, I was still had thediet, that prognosis of 18
months, because the way thatbrain cancer works is there's
(20:55):
always said it satellite cellsall throughout the brain. That's
that is normally how thingswork. So I did the what they
call the gold standard treatmenthere in Australia, and that is
chemotherapy and radiationtherapy. And I also went on a
trial, which Yeah, was that thatwas a whole nother thing as
(21:18):
well, which meant I had to bebecause normally with brain
cancer, you have oralchemotherapy. Normally Tramadol,
I think is the agent. And I wenton to a trial that were that was
infusion. So it meant that I wasin the hospital in their chemo
ward for two days, every week.
And that ended up being sodepressing. So in the end with
(21:38):
that, with the actual trial, Imade the decision to actually
pull out of the trial because Ifelt like if potentially it was
doing any good, the negativeimpact of actually being in the
chemo ward two days a week faroutweighed any possible positive
positive effect it could have onme
Daniel Baden (22:00):
what was actually the part that affected you
mostly,
Kate Szymansky (22:03):
I tried to, I tried to make it a really
positive experience, I'd alwayshave someone one of my really
good friends with me, we'd watchsomething fun. But I think just
that environment, there's somany sad people there. And it
always took so much longer thanit was meant to. And so you were
there for hours and hours andhours and hours. There's nothing
(22:26):
really light about It's reallyheavy. Yeah, really heavy energy
that you're sitting in. Becauseyou're not just you're not just
there, in your own energy.
You're there with all of theseother people that feel really
hopeless, and feeling andfeeling really unwell. And, and
many of them, there's just a lotof heavy energy in that ward.
Daniel Baden (22:46):
So just in case there's a hospital administrator
listening to this podcast, ifyou had it in the garden, or
Kate Szymansky (22:53):
oh, man, that would be absolute. That would be
phenomenal. I've never thoughtabout that being out in.
Absolutely. Because we know andone thing I did try and do as
much as I could, Daniel withboth the chemo and with the
radiation therapy was very muchthinking, okay, and accepting
(23:15):
this, this is helping me seeingit not as poisoned seeing it as
life giving, because I thinkthose visualizations are really
important as well. So if youwere outdoors, just imagine how
much easier would be to do that,to really reframe that as this
is a life giving something lifegiving that is entering my body
(23:35):
right now. And I am welcoming itevery cell in my body is
welcoming this into my body toheal. I mean, that's a very,
very different visualizationright there, isn't it?
Daniel Baden (23:46):
Absolutely. So at some point, you've got yourself
involved with a particular typeof therapy, which I'm extremely
interested in, because I've seensome people have amazing
outcomes. And that is dendriticcell therapy. Yes. Could you
talk to us about that?
Kate Szymansky (24:03):
Sure. So I'm definitely not a scientist, but
I'll explain it in my verylayman terms. So this this was
really new back when in 2013.
When we went over to Germany,
Daniel Baden (24:18):
it's still not a thing in Australia, by the way.
Kate Szymansky (24:20):
No, it isn't.
You're right. It's not availablehere, which is ridiculous. But
many more people have know aboutit. And and back then I didn't
know anyone who had done it. Butmy partner then he did a lot of
research. And he found he cameacross a professor Julian
Barden, who was working with bioSEPTA at the time. I don't know
(24:46):
if he still is, and he developedthe antigen or the
chemotherapeutic that had theability to target tumor cells
and tumor cells only rather thannapalm in all the cells. which
is what you know, traditionalchemotherapy does. So he here in
Australia with FDA regulations,it takes, you know, 20 years of
(25:07):
trials, clinical trials toactually get anything through.
So recognizing that he wouldn'tbe able to get this administered
in Australia, he had arelationship with a doctor by
the name of Dr. Thomas Nestlehooked over in Germany. And he
created this this type oftherapy called dendritic cell
(25:27):
therapy, which is a type ofimmunotherapy. So, with this
therapy, they harvest your whiteblood cells, so my white blood
cells they harvested, and thenusing that chemotherapeutic that
Julian Barden had developed,they create a vaccine. So using
my white blood cells, and thenessentially you are mobilizing
(25:51):
your own immune system to do thejob that it hasn't done when it
comes to tumor cells, becausethey're like immortal cells that
that don't die. Every cell ismeant to die. And yeah, so
that's how the immunotherapyworks.
Daniel Baden (26:07):
And that was one little component to it. Yeah, is
that when they extract dendriticcells, or they isolate them from
your own blood, and they alsotake some tumor cells as well.
And so they expose the tumor toyour own dendritic cells and
potentized that mixture. Soyou've got these supercharged
(26:28):
dendritic cells that really knowwhat your tumor looks like. And
so they have a real good crackat attacking it. And that's, and
I think that's the key to itreally simulates what are called
T cells in the blood and destroygood evidence for it. Yeah,
overseas. There's a couple oftrials going on in Australia.
(26:51):
But we haven't seen itclinically available generally
yet. Very slow.
Kate Szymansky (26:57):
I recall.
There's someone but was it KevinHart? Was that his name? I
thought he was the chap here inAustralia, who was trying to get
it up and running originally.
Daniel Baden (27:06):
At university to Queensland is one I believe, and
there's another one that thePeter Mac center in Victoria, I
think they're also running atrial, if I remember correctly.
Yeah, but one day, because itdoes sound pretty good,
especially with a lot of thenatural medicine stuff that we
talk about, it seems to beaugmented by good diet and
(27:27):
lifestyle choices and somesupplements and that sort of
thing. So it's interesting.
Kate Szymansky (27:32):
I guess the not to bring a downer on that,
Daniel. But the I guess the hardpart of getting this through
will be the fact trying to getpharmaceutical companies on
board, because if there's not aone size fits all the fact that
this is customized for eachindividual, whether or not
they're going to make enoughmoney out of that will become
the issue and become thepotential barrier.
Daniel Baden (27:53):
Yeah, look, you never know. Yeah, we there's
lots of stuff that happens, I'msure behind closed doors that
we're never exposed to.
Kate Szymansky (28:03):
Yes, we just gotta cross our fingers that
Yeah. As you say it's it can itcan be incredibly effective. And
but I mean, to be honest,whether I'm still here as a
result of that, who knows? And Iguess who cares? Really, the
fact is, I'm still here, andI've done plenty of things to
try and ensure that I am.
Daniel Baden (28:23):
So you had to go to Germany, though, to get this
done. The stress on financiallythat must just be beyond the
reach of most people, the impactit has on the kids and who looks
after the kids and runs thehouse and give them to school?
And how did you manage all ofthat? How long did you have to
go for,
Kate Szymansky (28:42):
or we had to go had to go for? I had to go for
five, five to six months,because the way that the initial
treatment is sort of sheduledyou need to be there. It's not
arduous at all. The actualtreatment, nothing like chemo
here, it's literally so simple.
You could have it all done inone day. But the way that the
treatment had been working, youneeded to have those injections
(29:05):
consecutively monthly for thosefirst five months. And so yeah,
we were not financially in agood place at all at that time.
So some friends of mine reallyencouraged me to say yes to a
fundraiser, which I reallystruggled with. It was so hard
(29:28):
to say yes. And when Ieventually said yes.
Daniel Baden (29:36):
Why was it hard to say yes.
Kate Szymansky (29:37):
You know, because I'm not I wasn't used to
receiving you know, like, I helpI'm the one who helps other
people. And that's, you know,again, that's something this is
my life lesson. I'm stilllearning it. I'm still learning
it receiving is giving,receiving is giving and it is I
(29:58):
get that because If you don'tallow that, then you're robbing
somebody else of the opportunityto feel really good about
helping you. But it's a hardlesson to learn. So, my friends
wanted to do a do a fundraiser.
And when I, when I eventuallyacquiesced and said, you know,
yes, because there was no otherway. I mean, it was silly that I
(30:18):
was even contemplating notsaying yes, and this is way
before the days of, you know, onwhat are they on Facebook, how
they do for me, you know, therewas like that. So this is Yeah,
sort of wait a bit way backbefore any of that was
happening. And in my head, I'mthinking our backyard barbecue,
you know, I don't know. Anyhow,as it turned out, this group of
(30:42):
people or friends and somefamily, and my ex, they created
this group. And they did such ana magnificent job. And they, it
ended up being a an 800 personevent, which I sort of can't
even believe now. Beautiful Marykhusus was the emcee, the baby
(31:07):
animals were there playing. Itwas crazy. And there was all
these amazing, this is massive.
What is it called when they sellthings? A raffle? Yeah, an
auction auction. Auction. Theyhad this incredible auction that
all these people had had giventhey had given us the most
(31:29):
incredible sort of things toauction off. Gosh, my I'm losing
my words. But it was, yeah, it'sit. Even now, it can bring me to
tears, the thought of so muchlove in this room, and so much
love for me. And incredible, youknow, when you're alive to
witness that sort of love, youknow, just, they desperately
(31:53):
wanted to help me and wanted tohelp my family and get us over
to Germany. And they also wantunderstood that it really wasn't
going to work. If we weren't alltogether, like there's no way I
could, I wasn't well enough tobe going flying back and forth
six times and be away from mykids and my family for that long
each time. This is no way thatwould have just couldn't, that
(32:14):
wouldn't work at all. So thisallowed us the six of us to, to
like we took the kids out ofschool, we did distance
education with them. And we sortof moved around to a few
different places where there wassort of friends or family or
family. Yeah, and each time justkeep coming back to Germany to
daanish that where the clinicwas where that dendritic cell
(32:36):
therapy was offered.
Daniel Baden (32:38):
Imagine how hard it was for someone like you to
actually recognize that you areactually worthy.
Kate Szymansky (32:43):
Yes. Goodness, Daniel. Yes. Spot on spot on.
Yeah. And I'm still working atit.
Daniel Baden (32:56):
You know, there are so many lessons in life. And
one of them is that you're herenow to help other people.
Kate Szymansky (33:01):
That's right.
Absolutely.
Daniel Baden (33:04):
Right, you're giving back. It's wonderful.
Kate Szymansky (33:06):
No, no, no, no, that's my life's work now. And
that, no, for me, that's reallymakes sense of why I'm still
here, Daniel, I'm still here fora reason, not only just to,
obviously, for my children, butbecause I do I want you know,
I'm hoping there's somethinghere there's some sort of
wisdom, something that can helpother people when they're
dealing with massive challengethemselves.
Daniel Baden (33:27):
I know that you sought many different types of
modalities and therapies,acupuncture, Chinese herbs,
yoga, meditation, etc. Had youcome across all this stuff
before? It just wasn't so new toyou? And were you accepting of
it all?
Kate Szymansky (33:44):
I was very accepting. No, I'd been into
that stuff. Which was great.
Because I was very wellpositioned. There was no
skepticism whatsoever with me, Isort of go the opposite way. I'm
i i sort of, in some ways, I'm,is it too dumb to can be too
trusting? I sort of, yeah, butI'm very open, very, very open.
(34:09):
So there was no issuewhatsoever. I was already I
probably with the acupuncture.
probably hadn't done acupuncturebefore. But I'd certainly been
to naturopaths before, you know,I'd been into meditation before.
Yes, I was very as pretty opento pretty much everything.
That's
Daniel Baden (34:28):
why, if you could put this into a few words, how
have you as a person changed?
What have you seen that'sdifferent about yourself? And
perhaps what would you tell youryounger self now?
Kate Szymansky (34:41):
Well, I think going back to that self worth
thing that you mentioned aswell, I think I would, well, I'd
tell my younger self a fewthings. I would certainly let
them know that they'reabsolutely worthy. And I would
hopefully give them more of avoice in terms of expressing why
they need, what I need. And Ithink I would just encourage
(35:05):
more curiosity around who I am,and why I am like I am. And try
and get really clear on thosesort of unconscious beliefs that
you take on as a very youngperson that be sort of operating
out of completely unconsciously.
And I would really encouragethat, that sort of work on
(35:26):
yourself to just to understandmyself a little bit better. But
yeah, just just bring morecuriosity to things, I would say
just question things a littlebit more overarching advice, I'd
give my younger self, and alsojust understand the impact of
stress, the impact of going toohard in life, and, and just
missing a lot of things. Andunderstanding of that impact on
(35:51):
on the body. And the DIS easethat happens as a result of that
would be my advice as well.
Daniel Baden (35:59):
You've embraced everything you've learned. And
you look, you really do lookhealthy and amazing. And you've
obviously have continued toembrace it. And now you're is
the word facilitator orinstructor with portraying?
Kate Szymansky (36:15):
Yes, yeah. For you. So me and another
facilitator, we teach theprogram. So on five day programs
were there to teach. But thereason why I think these
programs work so spectacularlyDaniel is, everyone's there
together, there's no, the wholeteam shares, everyone shares,
(36:38):
what they're going through theirchallenges. So there's no sense
of us and them, there's just areal sense of community,
everyone there, being thereexperiencing similar things, and
learning from each other. Andit's a really, it's the
transformation that I'vewitnessed from Monday to Friday,
over and over and over isextraordinary. Extraordinary,
Daniel Baden (37:02):
isn't just for the individuals with the diagnosis
or do their families come inwith them, sometimes,
Kate Szymansky (37:08):
I think it's ideal for the partner, spouse or
you know, a partner to come,partners to come together, we
don't have facilities forchildren there at the moment,
we're not able to run children'sprograms, hopefully, maybe down
the track one day, but certainlyto be there with your partner,
because you're, it's really hardto explain otherwise. And and if
(37:31):
you're there together, you sortof walk away with a common sort
of language, a common, I guess,goal, or common understanding of
where you can go from here. AndI've also, as a result of going
through what I've what I've gonethrough and the result of doing
the work at Quest for beinginvolved with them for such a
long time. Now, you start outvolunteering, and then you do
(37:53):
second support, and then you dosort of support role. And then
you can train as a facilitator.
And in the last I've in I justwent back to uni full time and
did a counseling diploma. So nowI'm I'm a counselor, as well as
a facilitator. And yeah, it's Ilove it, I love to be able to,
to be there for other people andto help them and have some sense
(38:14):
of, I guess it's I feel blessedin many ways that I've
experienced something like this.
And it really, you know, I guessfor me, I love I feel like I can
really make an enormousdifference for other people
dealing with things like cancer,having walked in their shoes
before, totally understandingwhat that feels like to face
(38:36):
your mortality. It's really hardto understand unless you've been
there before and and so I justlove the fact that I can bring
that to other people whenthey're dealing with such
massive challenge
Daniel Baden (38:48):
will both says absolutely critical. So other
people get in touch with you orquiz for my posts, what's the
best way forward?
Kate Szymansky (38:56):
Well, thank you for giving the quest for life,
the website in just look up, youknow, just Google quest for
life, and they'll come upstraightaway, I can't recommend
recommend those weeks morehighly to anyone going through
any sort of challenge. Andreally, to be honest, that
education is so relevant toevery person on the planet. It's
because it's not about notdying. It's about living well.
(39:19):
Everyone could could do withwith that sort of recipe,
couldn't they? Because the wholeprogram really is about portrays
it's called the recipe forpeace, and who doesn't want a
little bit more peace in theirlives, and it's all about
navigating challenge moreskillfully and more peacefully
as well. So there's that and youcan find me on my website, which
(39:42):
is Kate szymanski.com.au. Sothat's Szymanski. For anyone
looking for a counselor
Daniel Baden (39:55):
will Kate you have just been amazing and very
encouraging and honest sendingyou lots of love. I hope you can
accept it.
Kate Szymansky (40:03):
Thank you. I do and I've sent much love back to
you, Daniel. I love doing thispodcast. It's amazing. And I
really hope that it helps a lotof people no doubt it has helped
many so far. So thank you forwhat you're doing. It's
incredible.
Daniel Baden (40:16):
It's a lot of fun.
I've got to tell you, I'mlearning so much.
Kate Szymansky (40:21):
You're teaching.
Thank you for you told mesomething about dendritic cell
therapy today that I didn't knowso well, thank you.
Daniel Baden (40:29):
But look, stay in touch and and wishing you all
the best. Take care.
Kate Szymansky (40:35):
Thank you, Daniel. Take care. Bye
Kate Szymanski, welcome to 'a patient story.'
Kate Szymansky (00:37):
Thank you very much for having me, Daniel, I
really appreciated theinvitation.
Daniel Baden (00:51):
You were diagnosed with a aggressive form of brain
cancer, and given a short timeto live, but here you are
looking amazing. the listenerscan't see you but you look
amazing.
Kate Szymansky (01:03):
You're very kind, there must have been
vasoline on the lens. That'swhat we like.
Daniel Baden (01:10):
You were first diagnosed in 2009, with an
astrocytoma, which is a lessaggressive form of brain cancer.
And it was dealt with and howwas it dealt with?
Kate Szymansky (01:21):
Yeah, so that was 2009, Daniel and I had a
surgery, I had a resection, itwas removed. And I was really
fortunate because it was in avery accessible area and a non
eloquent area. So there wasn't alot of, I guess, concern going
in other then of course, therewas a lot of concern with the
thought of someone actuallygoing into your brain. And I
(01:42):
remember at that point, I was soconcerned, or just frightened,
fearful, the thought of someone,something happening to your
brain and wondering whether thatwould change me as a person,
there was a lot of fear aroundthat. I remember that very
distinctly. Yes. So at thatpoint, we didn't know what the
pathology was going to be. Allwe knew was that there was a
(02:05):
tumor, they didn't know if itwas going to be malignant, they
don't didn't know how long ithad been there, obviously, had
never having had a brain scanbefore and MRI. So yes, but at
that point, it was still veryconfronting to get the news that
it was brain cancer. In 2009,my, I had four children and my
youngest at that, at that stagewere I had twin girls who were
(02:28):
two and my eldest son was seven.
So that was a huge shock in ofitself, getting that news. And
it took quite a long time torecover, I recall after that
first surgery, and but I didn'thave to have any treatment. So
they felt confident that theywere able to get some margin
around the tumor that wasn'toverly large and, and that no
(02:49):
treatment post operation wasrequired. But I was told at the
time that it would come back,because that's how brain cancer
works. And when it comes back,it comes back a higher grade.
But I, I really think about howI reacted or reacted to that
news. And I'm sort of one ofthose blindly optimistic people,
(03:13):
that sometimes really works inmy favor. And sometimes it
doesn't. And so I was just, Ijust thought, you know what,
this, this isn't, you know, it'snot gonna be a problem, it won't
be I'm, I'm different, I'mdifferent, this isn't going to
it's not going to come backagain. And as a result of that,
so it's sort of really put itreally far out of my mind. But I
(03:35):
guess the downside of that waswhat now looking back
retrospectively, I see that thatwas a real red flag that I
ignored completely, and didn'tmake any changes in my life at
all at the time. If anything, Iprobably just got busier and
more stressed.
Daniel Baden (03:53):
How old were you at the time?
Kate Szymansky (03:55):
So I was 38.
Daniel Baden (03:58):
Okay, and you had four small children. And you
also came from a executive,corporate type role.
Kate Szymansky (04:05):
The first sort of, I guess the first half of my
career was advertising, and thensort of delved into a little bit
of marketing later. But it was,yeah, really high stress sort of
environment. And at that point,between those years of the first
tumor and the second tumor, Iremember I was working at a
particular agency, and it was,it was meant to be part time.
(04:27):
But to be honest, it was reallyfull time hours, I was doing a
lot of after hours work, andobviously with four young
children, trying to make surethat had a lot of balls in the
air, making sure that nothingsort of fell through the cracks
with them. So yeah, it was a lotit was a hell of a lot,
actually.
Daniel Baden (04:43):
But when you had the surgery for the first brain
cancer, we had a briefconversation a little while ago,
and you said that you didn'tmake any lifestyle or dietary
changes, which did surprise me alittle bit to be honest. And I'm
just wondering, you know, whynot? What was your mindset or
your state of mind? And aroundthat, because most people would
go, Okay, I'm going to chill outa bit more. I'm going to drink
(05:05):
more green products or whateverthey do. Yeah. What was going on
for you?
Kate Szymansky (05:11):
Yeah. So Daniel, I think what I mentioned before
about being super optimistic andpositive, and sometimes, you
know, sometimes that's great.
But other times, it's not sogood. And I think at that time,
I, it's just sort of a way ofbeing, I was always putting
everyone else's needs ahead ofmy own. And that's really come
back to bite me. Actually.
Daniel Baden (05:33):
The mother syndrome.
Kate Szymansky (05:34):
That's right there mother syndrome, but
actually times 1000. Okay. Justwhen I know it's sort of, I
guess, the way of my way ofbeing, I guess, I've done a lot
of work since then on that. Yes.
So I think that was my mind. Mymindset was, okay, the doctors
have told me that, but that'snot going to happen to me. So I
think I just felt like head inthe sand. I just thought, if I
(05:56):
put if I just put that to theside, I won't have to worry
about it. It's not going tohappen to me. I'll just keep
going. Like I always do. Justkeep going. Keep going, keep
going.
Daniel Baden (06:08):
Yeah,soldier on.
Kate Szymansky (06:09):
Oh, yes.
Daniel Baden (06:11):
But then it came back in 2012. And it was
diagnosed as a grade 4glioblastoma. And that's a
fairly serious diagnosis, youwere given 18 months to live.
And that's gotta be something,especially when you got a small
family that must just knock youout of the ballpark? How did you
feel?
Kate Szymansky (06:31):
Ah, Daniel, it was, I can't, I can't even
express how devastating thatnews is. I mean, I just
remember, it was awful. Iremember looking into a mirror,
in the in being in my car on theway home from the hospital. And
looking into it, I was in thepassenger seat and looking into
(06:52):
that mirror and just sort of notbelieving that it could be true.
And then I would wake up eachmorning and you know, that
moment where you don't you sortof forget that anything's
happened that blissful moment,and then literally be assaulted
with that sense of completehopelessness, and desperation
for my kids. You know, whenyou've got children, I think
(07:15):
your mortality really no longerhas anything to do with you.
It's just about them. And thethe feeling of them growing up
without their mother was justtoo much to bear. So I yeah, I
was absolutely devastated.
Daniel Baden (07:30):
Do you make a decision to try to explain to
your children what's happening?
Or do you well, for why aroundit
Kate Szymansky (07:38):
at that point, I mean, they were pretty young. So
Max, my eldest was only he wasonly 10. And the youngest, my
twin girls, they were only five.
So we actually got some reallygreat advice from Petrea King,
actually, who is a mentor ofmine now. But at the time, my ex
had met her at a conference. Andshe, she was just incredible.
(08:00):
When we found out this is evenbefore we actually got that
diagnosis. So before thesurgery, we just knew it was
going to be pretty bad. But fromI'd been to the doctor got the
scan results on the Friday, andI was literally going in that
Monday for the surgery. And soover that weekend, I remember
having some conversations withPetrea on the phone, I'd never
(08:22):
met her before, and just tryingto get a sense of how to, you
know, what do we tell the kids,what's sort of appropriate for
them. And very much the adviceat that time was, which I think
is spot on, you know, even atany age, kids get a sense that,
you know, they really understandthey get a sense of what's
happening, and when somethingreally distressing is happening.
(08:43):
And so if you sort of hide ortry and hide conversations from
them, I guess it makes them feellike they're not important
enough in your life to knowwhat's happening with they're
hearing conversations thatyou're having with other people.
So as much as possible, justbeing completely open and honest
with them. But certainly nottelling them anything that was
distressing for them, like youdon't then sort of project
(09:07):
forward and, and give them youknow, sort of statistics or
anything like that. Because Ireally believe no one is no one
can tell anyone how much longerthey've got left on this planet
who knows what none of us know.
So I find that interesting thatmedical practitioners feel like
they should tell people how muchhow much longer they've got, I
(09:27):
never wanted to know, actuallyand I went out of my way not to
know. But yeah,
Daniel Baden (09:31):
so how did you find out then?
Kate Szymansky (09:33):
Well, it was, it was, it was quite devastating,
really because I had actually Imade a real effort not to know I
didn't look anything up. And myneurosurgeon invited me to this
particular evening, and Ithought it was going to be about
sort of good news. They weretalking about brain cancer where
(09:53):
it's at at this point, and I wasthinking, Oh, great. I'm gonna
hear some good news about newtreatments and find out what the
lay of The land is, and this wasI'm not quite sure how long this
was post operation, but I guessit's probably, I'd say within
maybe the first year within thatfirst 12 months. And it was
basically a presentation,talking about mortality rates
(10:17):
and talking about how,basically, they're getting
nowhere with the treatment. Andit was all doom and gloom. And I
was looking at this PowerPointpresentation, just thinking, I
felt so blindsided by it. And Iwas really, really upset by it.
So much so that I sent a verystrongly worded email. Because,
(10:37):
yeah, it was I, they, and theysort of knew my position, and I
was quite disappointed by that.
Daniel Baden (10:43):
Yeah, I understand. Just going back to
your kids for a second, you hada adult conversation with your
young children. And I imaginedthat you may have had some sort
of expectation or inclination asto how they may have responded.
Was that met? I mean, how werethey?
Kate Szymansky (11:01):
When it's sort of hard to know, Daniel, when I
think back to those times, Imean, I'm, I'm a very tactile
person, and hopefully quite awarm person. So I would have
wrapped them up, I would have,you know, the love would have
just been expressed continually.
And it would just would havebeen a lot of reassurance. Like
(11:22):
just that we're doing everythingwe can to get to get mommy
better. And nothing really morethan that. And, and the good
thing is, I really didn't askthe hard questions. Because I
think because there were soyoung, which is was a blessing
in disguise. Really?
Daniel Baden (11:39):
Yeah. Look, it's an important conversation,
because so many people don'tknow how to manage their
children with a terriblediagnosis. So
Kate Szymansky (11:48):
lately, no, I think it's, I would just really
encourage people Yeah, to, tohave those conversations to ask
your children how they're going.
I know a lot more now than I didback then. And, and honestly, if
I went through this again, Iwould do it very differently. A
different person now to who Iwas 11. Yeah, more knowledge and
wisdom around it as well.
Daniel Baden (12:11):
We'll get onto that in a minute. Because that
sounds very interesting. Yourhusband met Petrea King at a
conference and introduced you toportray it. Now I'm just gonna
give Petrea a free plug here.
She doesn't know this. But Ilove Patricia King, she is a
hero of mine. And I've never meta kinder, more genuine
(12:31):
individual. She's a naturopath,a nurse, I think, and just has a
way of managing and dealing withpeople like I've never met
anyone. She runs a foundationcalled the quest for Life
Foundation
(https (12:47):
//questforlife.org.au/) , which I know has helped many
of my patients in the past, andfriends as well. And not just
the patient helps the wholefamily deal with some terrible
situations. If anyone out therelistening would like to get
involved, please get in touchwith the quest for Life
Foundation. If you have somespare cash, and you'd like to
(13:09):
benefit people in the future, oreven in the very near future,
please make a donation to Questfor life. And I just think it's
just one of the best things youcan do for humanity. That was my
free plug. She didn't know. Butlet's go on.
Kate Szymansky (13:26):
Daniel, and as you know, I now do facilitation
and counseling for quest forlife as well. So you know, I
can't sing betrays pay ispraises more loudly and clearly.
And yes, please anyone who candonate because the foundation
doesn't like to turn anyone awayon financial grounds. So when
(13:47):
people donate, it just meansthat many more people have
access to this educationprogram, which is is life
changing? I mean, I can changemy life.
Daniel Baden (13:56):
Yeah, yeah. Good.
Well, I'll put a link to thefoundation on the chat notes
after this. So you were exposedto Petrea and you you did the
one week program there. Yeah.
What is the one week program?
What's it all about?
Kate Szymansky (14:13):
Well, there's three different programs,
Daniel, but the one that I didwith my husband at the time was
called is called quest. It'sjust called Quest for life. And
that particular five day programis very much sort of directed
towards those people goingthrough life threatening
illnesses. That's what it's alittle bit more sort of focused
(14:34):
on. I guess, sort of thepractical side of that people
going through cancer, chronicillness, whereas the other two
programs, one called healingyour life, and one called Moving
Beyond trauma, and MBT movingbeyond beyond trauma is very
much for those dealing with posttraumatic stress and healing
(14:56):
your life is for everything elsereally. For people deal.
linguish major challenges mentalhealth challenges, people going
through grief, they've gonethrough a really messy divorce,
whatever their massive challengeis, that's what that third
program sort of is for everyoneelse. So they're the three
programs. And so the quest forLife program that I went on, and
(15:18):
that I experienced it, it wasprofound. And this is at a time
where I was waking up with nohope. And thinking I'm, I'm done
here. And I walked away fromthat program really changed and
having a sense of hope, for thefirst time since I got that
(15:40):
news. And the reason I had hopewas because it was explained to
me very clearly, that I hadquite a lot of agency in this
much more than I thought interms of control over what was
happening. And that's all aboutunderstanding your internal and
external environment, andessentially creating the most
(16:01):
conducive environment forhealing. So there's some really,
really practical informationthat you learn there, and really
easy to understand and easy toapply to your life immediately
Daniel Baden (16:14):
give you one example of what that might have
been for you. Well, I
Kate Szymansky (16:17):
things like meditation, and how incredibly
helpful it is in terms of,because when you think about
your distress around somethinglike this, the distress is
what's happening up here, I'mpointing at my head, in my mind,
that's where the pain is, that'swhere the anguish is. And what
meditation is all about is beingable to observe those thoughts
(16:40):
and all the feelings associatedwith those thoughts, and be able
to witness them as opposed tobeing overwhelmed and enmeshed
by those feelings. And having asense that that's all there is
you become those overwhelmingfeelings. So meditation wasn't
was just was really made anenormous difference for me in
(17:01):
terms of dealing with with whatI was dealing with. But other
practical things were thingslike having fresh juices, for
example, and what sort of impactthat can have, particularly when
you're going through chemo andradiation therapy. So just
nutrition, there's a lot aroundnutrition. That whole
understanding that when it comesto what we put on ourselves,
(17:23):
what we eat, everything that'sin that interstitial fluid
that's surrounding all of ourcells, understanding that the
chemistry of our emotions is oneof those things as well. And so
understanding then how essentialit or not essential, but
important it is to try andmanage the stressors in our life
(17:43):
and try and encourage a lot oflaughter, some lightness,
because that essentially is whatwe're what we are surrounding
ourselves in. And whatever disease in the body, whatever is
whatever gene might be there,whether that gene expresses or
doesn't express has everythingto do with this, what's
(18:04):
surrounding that cell, which isthe interstitial fluid. And we
have a lot of agency, we have alot of control around what that
environment looks like. And thatis really practical information
that I learned. And that was agame changer,
Daniel Baden (18:18):
you know, to reinforce everything you've just
said a couple of months ago, Iinterviewed Charlie Teo, who's a
well known brain surgeon for apodcast, who the patient he was
talking about also had aglioblastoma, and the gentleman
was on the podcast, but thegentleman lived a wild life,
let's say drinking andwomanizing and eating badly and
(18:40):
all that sort of stuff. And whenhe stopped all that the
glioblastoma shrunk and almostwent away. And after a few
years, the gentleman said, I hadenough of this I want to go
drinking in boozing andwhatever, smoking again, and
then also to come back again.
And I I just thought that wasamazing. And it reinforces
everything you've just spokenabout. Yeah.
Kate Szymansky (19:04):
Yeah.
Fascinating. Play. It's yeah,that is it's really accurate. I
do but I in saying that I stillthink that their balance is
necessary. Because I do rememberwhen I was first diagnosed, just
doing everything to the letter,getting rid of all sugar out of
my diet, getting rid of alcohol,getting rid of coffee, and I
remember mum saying to me,darling, you know, it's maybe
(19:26):
that's just a bit too much atthis point, you know, you're
dealing with so much right now.
It's, it's so it's those, likegoing out for you with your
friends and having a coffee,that connection is actually more
important than anything else.
And I absolutely understand thatnow knowing what I know. And,
you know, I'm actually notsurprisingly quite interested in
neuroscience these days and, andunderstanding that social
(19:49):
connection is one of the biggestthings to support
neuroplasticity. That's reallygood for our brain health. So
it's I think it's obvious See,you can go really hardcore. But
I do think you've got to havesome really nice things what we
were talking about before thechemistry of our emotions, we
want to feel happy. We want tofeel joyful. We want to, we want
(20:09):
to laugh. We want to have
Daniel Baden (20:14):
that from connecting with other human
beings. Yeah,
Kate Szymansky (20:16):
absolutely. And nature and nature. That's a big
one for me.
Daniel Baden (20:20):
Absolutely. It is lots of evidence behind nature
and serious diseases. Well, whathappened? You have this
diagnosis you went to Petrea,you did the course. I presume
you still have the tumor.Whatdid you do?
Kate Szymansky (20:33):
No the tumor was removed. So I had the surgery.
And then we got the pathologyback. So they were able, I was
very lucky, it had grown back inexactly the same place. And they
were able to remove it. So I wasremoved. But even with it
removed, I was still had thediet, that prognosis of 18
months, because the way thatbrain cancer works is there's
(20:55):
always said it satellite cellsall throughout the brain. That's
that is normally how thingswork. So I did the what they
call the gold standard treatmenthere in Australia, and that is
chemotherapy and radiationtherapy. And I also went on a
trial, which Yeah, was that thatwas a whole nother thing as
(21:18):
well, which meant I had to bebecause normally with brain
cancer, you have oralchemotherapy. Normally Tramadol,
I think is the agent. And I wenton to a trial that were that was
infusion. So it meant that I wasin the hospital in their chemo
ward for two days, every week.
And that ended up being sodepressing. So in the end with
(21:38):
that, with the actual trial, Imade the decision to actually
pull out of the trial because Ifelt like if potentially it was
doing any good, the negativeimpact of actually being in the
chemo ward two days a week faroutweighed any possible positive
positive effect it could have onme
Daniel Baden (22:00):
what was actually the part that affected you
mostly,
Kate Szymansky (22:03):
I tried to, I tried to make it a really
positive experience, I'd alwayshave someone one of my really
good friends with me, we'd watchsomething fun. But I think just
that environment, there's somany sad people there. And it
always took so much longer thanit was meant to. And so you were
there for hours and hours andhours and hours. There's nothing
(22:26):
really light about It's reallyheavy. Yeah, really heavy energy
that you're sitting in. Becauseyou're not just you're not just
there, in your own energy.
You're there with all of theseother people that feel really
hopeless, and feeling andfeeling really unwell. And, and
many of them, there's just a lotof heavy energy in that ward.
Daniel Baden (22:46):
So just in case there's a hospital administrator
listening to this podcast, ifyou had it in the garden, or
Kate Szymansky (22:53):
oh, man, that would be absolute. That would be
phenomenal. I've never thoughtabout that being out in.
Absolutely. Because we know andone thing I did try and do as
much as I could, Daniel withboth the chemo and with the
radiation therapy was very muchthinking, okay, and accepting
(23:15):
this, this is helping me seeingit not as poisoned seeing it as
life giving, because I thinkthose visualizations are really
important as well. So if youwere outdoors, just imagine how
much easier would be to do that,to really reframe that as this
is a life giving something lifegiving that is entering my body
(23:35):
right now. And I am welcoming itevery cell in my body is
welcoming this into my body toheal. I mean, that's a very,
very different visualizationright there, isn't it?
Daniel Baden (23:46):
Absolutely. So at some point, you've got yourself
involved with a particular typeof therapy, which I'm extremely
interested in, because I've seensome people have amazing
outcomes. And that is dendriticcell therapy. Yes. Could you
talk to us about that?
Kate Szymansky (24:03):
Sure. So I'm definitely not a scientist, but
I'll explain it in my verylayman terms. So this this was
really new back when in 2013.
When we went over to Germany,
Daniel Baden (24:18):
it's still not a thing in Australia, by the way.
Kate Szymansky (24:20):
No, it isn't.
You're right. It's not availablehere, which is ridiculous. But
many more people have know aboutit. And and back then I didn't
know anyone who had done it. Butmy partner then he did a lot of
research. And he found he cameacross a professor Julian
Barden, who was working with bioSEPTA at the time. I don't know
(24:46):
if he still is, and he developedthe antigen or the
chemotherapeutic that had theability to target tumor cells
and tumor cells only rather thannapalm in all the cells. which
is what you know, traditionalchemotherapy does. So he here in
Australia with FDA regulations,it takes, you know, 20 years of
(25:07):
trials, clinical trials toactually get anything through.
So recognizing that he wouldn'tbe able to get this administered
in Australia, he had arelationship with a doctor by
the name of Dr. Thomas Nestlehooked over in Germany. And he
created this this type oftherapy called dendritic cell
(25:27):
therapy, which is a type ofimmunotherapy. So, with this
therapy, they harvest your whiteblood cells, so my white blood
cells they harvested, and thenusing that chemotherapeutic that
Julian Barden had developed,they create a vaccine. So using
my white blood cells, and thenessentially you are mobilizing
(25:51):
your own immune system to do thejob that it hasn't done when it
comes to tumor cells, becausethey're like immortal cells that
that don't die. Every cell ismeant to die. And yeah, so
that's how the immunotherapyworks.
Daniel Baden (26:07):
And that was one little component to it. Yeah, is
that when they extract dendriticcells, or they isolate them from
your own blood, and they alsotake some tumor cells as well.
And so they expose the tumor toyour own dendritic cells and
potentized that mixture. Soyou've got these supercharged
(26:28):
dendritic cells that really knowwhat your tumor looks like. And
so they have a real good crackat attacking it. And that's, and
I think that's the key to itreally simulates what are called
T cells in the blood and destroygood evidence for it. Yeah,
overseas. There's a couple oftrials going on in Australia.
(26:51):
But we haven't seen itclinically available generally
yet. Very slow.
Kate Szymansky (26:57):
I recall.
There's someone but was it KevinHart? Was that his name? I
thought he was the chap here inAustralia, who was trying to get
it up and running originally.
Daniel Baden (27:06):
At university to Queensland is one I believe, and
there's another one that thePeter Mac center in Victoria, I
think they're also running atrial, if I remember correctly.
Yeah, but one day, because itdoes sound pretty good,
especially with a lot of thenatural medicine stuff that we
talk about, it seems to beaugmented by good diet and
(27:27):
lifestyle choices and somesupplements and that sort of
thing. So it's interesting.
Kate Szymansky (27:32):
I guess the not to bring a downer on that,
Daniel. But the I guess the hardpart of getting this through
will be the fact trying to getpharmaceutical companies on
board, because if there's not aone size fits all the fact that
this is customized for eachindividual, whether or not
they're going to make enoughmoney out of that will become
the issue and become thepotential barrier.
Daniel Baden (27:53):
Yeah, look, you never know. Yeah, we there's
lots of stuff that happens, I'msure behind closed doors that
we're never exposed to.
Kate Szymansky (28:03):
Yes, we just gotta cross our fingers that
Yeah. As you say it's it can itcan be incredibly effective. And
but I mean, to be honest,whether I'm still here as a
result of that, who knows? And Iguess who cares? Really, the
fact is, I'm still here, andI've done plenty of things to
try and ensure that I am.
Daniel Baden (28:23):
So you had to go to Germany, though, to get this
done. The stress on financiallythat must just be beyond the
reach of most people, the impactit has on the kids and who looks
after the kids and runs thehouse and give them to school?
And how did you manage all ofthat? How long did you have to
go for,
Kate Szymansky (28:42):
or we had to go had to go for? I had to go for
five, five to six months,because the way that the initial
treatment is sort of sheduledyou need to be there. It's not
arduous at all. The actualtreatment, nothing like chemo
here, it's literally so simple.
You could have it all done inone day. But the way that the
treatment had been working, youneeded to have those injections
(29:05):
consecutively monthly for thosefirst five months. And so yeah,
we were not financially in agood place at all at that time.
So some friends of mine reallyencouraged me to say yes to a
fundraiser, which I reallystruggled with. It was so hard
(29:28):
to say yes. And when Ieventually said yes.
Daniel Baden (29:36):
Why was it hard to say yes.
Kate Szymansky (29:37):
You know, because I'm not I wasn't used to
receiving you know, like, I helpI'm the one who helps other
people. And that's, you know,again, that's something this is
my life lesson. I'm stilllearning it. I'm still learning
it receiving is giving,receiving is giving and it is I
(29:58):
get that because If you don'tallow that, then you're robbing
somebody else of the opportunityto feel really good about
helping you. But it's a hardlesson to learn. So, my friends
wanted to do a do a fundraiser.
And when I, when I eventuallyacquiesced and said, you know,
yes, because there was no otherway. I mean, it was silly that I
(30:18):
was even contemplating notsaying yes, and this is way
before the days of, you know, onwhat are they on Facebook, how
they do for me, you know, therewas like that. So this is Yeah,
sort of wait a bit way backbefore any of that was
happening. And in my head, I'mthinking our backyard barbecue,
you know, I don't know. Anyhow,as it turned out, this group of
(30:42):
people or friends and somefamily, and my ex, they created
this group. And they did such ana magnificent job. And they, it
ended up being a an 800 personevent, which I sort of can't
even believe now. Beautiful Marykhusus was the emcee, the baby
(31:07):
animals were there playing. Itwas crazy. And there was all
these amazing, this is massive.
What is it called when they sellthings? A raffle? Yeah, an
auction auction. Auction. Theyhad this incredible auction that
all these people had had giventhey had given us the most
(31:29):
incredible sort of things toauction off. Gosh, my I'm losing
my words. But it was, yeah, it'sit. Even now, it can bring me to
tears, the thought of so muchlove in this room, and so much
love for me. And incredible, youknow, when you're alive to
witness that sort of love, youknow, just, they desperately
(31:53):
wanted to help me and wanted tohelp my family and get us over
to Germany. And they also wantunderstood that it really wasn't
going to work. If we weren't alltogether, like there's no way I
could, I wasn't well enough tobe going flying back and forth
six times and be away from mykids and my family for that long
each time. This is no way thatwould have just couldn't, that
(32:14):
wouldn't work at all. So thisallowed us the six of us to, to
like we took the kids out ofschool, we did distance
education with them. And we sortof moved around to a few
different places where there wassort of friends or family or
family. Yeah, and each time justkeep coming back to Germany to
daanish that where the clinicwas where that dendritic cell
(32:36):
therapy was offered.
Daniel Baden (32:38):
Imagine how hard it was for someone like you to
actually recognize that you areactually worthy.
Kate Szymansky (32:43):
Yes. Goodness, Daniel. Yes. Spot on spot on.
Yeah. And I'm still working atit.
Daniel Baden (32:56):
You know, there are so many lessons in life. And
one of them is that you're herenow to help other people.
Kate Szymansky (33:01):
That's right.
Absolutely.
Daniel Baden (33:04):
Right, you're giving back. It's wonderful.
Kate Szymansky (33:06):
No, no, no, no, that's my life's work now. And
that, no, for me, that's reallymakes sense of why I'm still
here, Daniel, I'm still here fora reason, not only just to,
obviously, for my children, butbecause I do I want you know,
I'm hoping there's somethinghere there's some sort of
wisdom, something that can helpother people when they're
dealing with massive challengethemselves.
Daniel Baden (33:27):
I know that you sought many different types of
modalities and therapies,acupuncture, Chinese herbs,
yoga, meditation, etc. Had youcome across all this stuff
before? It just wasn't so new toyou? And were you accepting of
it all?
Kate Szymansky (33:44):
I was very accepting. No, I'd been into
that stuff. Which was great.
Because I was very wellpositioned. There was no
skepticism whatsoever with me, Isort of go the opposite way. I'm
i i sort of, in some ways, I'm,is it too dumb to can be too
trusting? I sort of, yeah, butI'm very open, very, very open.
(34:09):
So there was no issuewhatsoever. I was already I
probably with the acupuncture.
probably hadn't done acupuncturebefore. But I'd certainly been
to naturopaths before, you know,I'd been into meditation before.
Yes, I was very as pretty opento pretty much everything.
That's
Daniel Baden (34:28):
why, if you could put this into a few words, how
have you as a person changed?
What have you seen that'sdifferent about yourself? And
perhaps what would you tell youryounger self now?
Kate Szymansky (34:41):
Well, I think going back to that self worth
thing that you mentioned aswell, I think I would, well, I'd
tell my younger self a fewthings. I would certainly let
them know that they'reabsolutely worthy. And I would
hopefully give them more of avoice in terms of expressing why
they need, what I need. And Ithink I would just encourage
(35:05):
more curiosity around who I am,and why I am like I am. And try
and get really clear on thosesort of unconscious beliefs that
you take on as a very youngperson that be sort of operating
out of completely unconsciously.
And I would really encouragethat, that sort of work on
(35:26):
yourself to just to understandmyself a little bit better. But
yeah, just just bring morecuriosity to things, I would say
just question things a littlebit more overarching advice, I'd
give my younger self, and alsojust understand the impact of
stress, the impact of going toohard in life, and, and just
missing a lot of things. Andunderstanding of that impact on
(35:51):
on the body. And the DIS easethat happens as a result of that
would be my advice as well.
Daniel Baden (35:59):
You've embraced everything you've learned. And
you look, you really do lookhealthy and amazing. And you've
obviously have continued toembrace it. And now you're is
the word facilitator orinstructor with portraying?
Kate Szymansky (36:15):
Yes, yeah. For you. So me and another
facilitator, we teach theprogram. So on five day programs
were there to teach. But thereason why I think these
programs work so spectacularlyDaniel is, everyone's there
together, there's no, the wholeteam shares, everyone shares,
(36:38):
what they're going through theirchallenges. So there's no sense
of us and them, there's just areal sense of community,
everyone there, being thereexperiencing similar things, and
learning from each other. Andit's a really, it's the
transformation that I'vewitnessed from Monday to Friday,
over and over and over isextraordinary. Extraordinary,
Daniel Baden (37:02):
isn't just for the individuals with the diagnosis
or do their families come inwith them, sometimes,
Kate Szymansky (37:08):
I think it's ideal for the partner, spouse or
you know, a partner to come,partners to come together, we
don't have facilities forchildren there at the moment,
we're not able to run children'sprograms, hopefully, maybe down
the track one day, but certainlyto be there with your partner,
because you're, it's really hardto explain otherwise. And and if
(37:31):
you're there together, you sortof walk away with a common sort
of language, a common, I guess,goal, or common understanding of
where you can go from here. AndI've also, as a result of going
through what I've what I've gonethrough and the result of doing
the work at Quest for beinginvolved with them for such a
long time. Now, you start outvolunteering, and then you do
(37:53):
second support, and then you dosort of support role. And then
you can train as a facilitator.
And in the last I've in I justwent back to uni full time and
did a counseling diploma. So nowI'm I'm a counselor, as well as
a facilitator. And yeah, it's Ilove it, I love to be able to,
to be there for other people andto help them and have some sense
(38:14):
of, I guess it's I feel blessedin many ways that I've
experienced something like this.
And it really, you know, I guessfor me, I love I feel like I can
really make an enormousdifference for other people
dealing with things like cancer,having walked in their shoes
before, totally understandingwhat that feels like to face
(38:36):
your mortality. It's really hardto understand unless you've been
there before and and so I justlove the fact that I can bring
that to other people whenthey're dealing with such
massive challenge
Daniel Baden (38:48):
will both says absolutely critical. So other
people get in touch with you orquiz for my posts, what's the
best way forward?
Kate Szymansky (38:56):
Well, thank you for giving the quest for life,
the website in just look up, youknow, just Google quest for
life, and they'll come upstraightaway, I can't recommend
recommend those weeks morehighly to anyone going through
any sort of challenge. Andreally, to be honest, that
education is so relevant toevery person on the planet. It's
because it's not about notdying. It's about living well.
(39:19):
Everyone could could do withwith that sort of recipe,
couldn't they? Because the wholeprogram really is about portrays
it's called the recipe forpeace, and who doesn't want a
little bit more peace in theirlives, and it's all about
navigating challenge moreskillfully and more peacefully
as well. So there's that and youcan find me on my website, which
(39:42):
is Kate szymanski.com.au. Sothat's Szymanski. For anyone
looking for a counselor
Daniel Baden (39:55):
will Kate you have just been amazing and very
encouraging and honest sendingyou lots of love. I hope you can
accept it.
Kate Szymansky (40:03):
Thank you. I do and I've sent much love back to
you, Daniel. I love doing thispodcast. It's amazing. And I
really hope that it helps a lotof people no doubt it has helped
many so far. So thank you forwhat you're doing. It's
incredible.
Daniel Baden (40:16):
It's a lot of fun.
I've got to tell you, I'mlearning so much.
Kate Szymansky (40:21):
You're teaching.
Thank you for you told mesomething about dendritic cell
therapy today that I didn't knowso well, thank you.
Daniel Baden (40:29):
But look, stay in touch and and wishing you all
the best. Take care.
Kate Szymansky (40:35):
Thank you, Daniel. Take care. Bye
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