Changing Workers Compensation with Bob Wilson

In this Rebroadcast episode, ADJUSTED welcomes Bob Wilson President & CEO  of WorkersCompensation.com. Bob shares his thoughts on the changes happening within the workers compensation industry.

Season 5 is brought to you by Berkley Industrial Comp. This episode is hosted by Greg Hamlin and guest co-host Mike Gilmartin, Area Vice President, Sales & Distribution, for Key Risk.

Comments and Feedback? Let us know at: https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/F5GCHWH

Visit the Berkley Industrial Comp blog for more!
Got questions? Send them to [e-mail]
For music inquiries, contact Cameron Runyan at [e-mail]

Episode Transcript

Greg Hamlin (00:12):
Hello, everybody and welcome to adjusted. I'm
your host Greg Hamlin coming atyou from beautiful Birmingham,
Alabama, and Berkley industrialcalm. And I'm excited that you
could join us for our firstrebroadcast. One of the things
that we're doing if you didn'tcatch my end of the year, thank
you, because we are going to bedoing some rebroadcast of some
of our best episodes, sincewe've now been doing this for

(00:36):
several years. And so to kick itoff, we're going to be listening
today to Bob Wilson, as he talksabout changing workers
compensation. And for those whohaven't been in the industry a
long time, Bob Wilson is astaple, has spoken conferences
across the country, and was theCEO of worker's

(00:58):
compensation.com, which is aputs them in a unique, unique
perspective, as many differentcarriers would come to his
website to make sure that theywere in compliance with state
regulations and state forms. Sohe had the opportunity of not
actually being a carrier, butseeing a lot of the challenges
carriers are having. And becausehis site was called workers

(01:20):
compensation.com and had forumsthere also injured workers that
would frequently post there. SoI really do think Bob Wilson was
a special interview. And it'sdefinitely thought leader in the
industry. So I hope you'll enjoythis episode. With that. We'll
get started. Hello, everybody,and welcome to adjusted. I'm

(01:42):
your host Greg Hamlin coming atyou from Sweet Home, Alabama,
and Berkeley industrial comp.
And with me is my co host forthe day. Mike Gilmartin. Mike,
you want to introduce yourselfto everybody?

Mike Gilmartin (01:53):
Yeah, excited to be back. Mike Gilmartin. I work
at key risk. And I'm based inGreensboro, North Carolina. And
Greg keeps asking me to comeback. So I've decided to oblige.
It's great.

Greg Hamlin (02:04):
I'm glad to have you, Mike, you always keep it
interesting. So appreciate yougiving up some time, we've got a
special guest today, Bob Wilson,who is president of workers
compensation.com. And I think ifyou've been in the Workers
Compensation space, and youhaven't run into him, then you
must not have been in here verylong. So glad to have you join
us, Bob.

Bob Wilson (02:24):
Thank you, Greg.
Appreciate it.

Greg Hamlin (02:26):
So I always like to start asking how you got into
the industry? Because I don'tthink there's too many of us
that when we were little growingup, knew we were going to be in
workers compensation. So Bob,how did you how did you fall
into this industry?

Bob Wilson (02:38):
Well, you're absolutely right. I got here
like everybody else by totalaccident. I think I had a web
development business in the 90s.
I'd had some background andtechnical recruiting for a
software development firm donehuman resource work, just
started a web developmentcompany in the mid 90s. And
through that was introduced to agentleman who had bought the
domain worker's compensation.comin 1995, but had done nothing

(03:00):
with it. This was in 1999. Andwe had we met had a general
agreement on what could be donewith that type of domain. Turns
out selling shoes is not asuccessful way to use that
domain. Now we set up a companyin September of 1999. And that's
it. I can't believe it's beenI'm in my what will be my 23rd

(03:23):
year in September. So I don'tknow where the time has gone.
You know, it's funny youmentioned about showing up here
by accident I speak I asked thatquestion a lot when I speak at
conferences and who you know whoreally in their, in their youth
as a kid wanted to be a worker'scomp professional and no one
ever raises their hand and in ahas anybody in college wanted to

(03:43):
be a worker's comp professionaland no one ever raises their
hand but then you ask who wokeup after a drunken stupor and
found out they were workerscompensation professional a few
people actually raised theirhand to that so I'm not quite
sure but but the thing you gotto understand in this industry,
it's like Hotel California youcan check out but you can never
ever leave because you never gothat's really

Greg Hamlin (04:05):
true. You see a lot of the same people bounce around
in different spots over theyears. It's true

Bob Wilson (04:09):
and even even good friends who have retired I still
see them at conferences they'restill showing up. They forgot
they retired. It's it's reallyit really is it's a it's a
fascinating industry. I'mactually been very very pleased
with the 20 some years I've beenin I'm trying to

Mike Gilmartin (04:23):
run from it personally I'm I started playing
stop says distribution. I'mtrying to face myself towards
the exit that no one ever has.
But it's not working. Like itdoesn't work on

Bob Wilson (04:32):
that we'll see in another year. On the wrap around
when you're back in

Mike Gilmartin (04:36):
the conference coming up and you'll be Yeah,
exactly. That's it. What's

Bob Wilson (04:40):
What's the old line in the mobster movie I tried to
get out and they sucked me backin. It's kind of like that.
Actually, I think about there'sa Sopranos episode that that
line.

Greg Hamlin (04:50):
That's great. Bob, could you tell us a little bit
about the resources that workerscompensation.com provides? Sure,
sure.

Bob Wilson (04:57):
I think a lot of people are familiar with the
basic stuff. Workerscompensation.com, which is a
free resource. It's open toanybody who's interested in
workers comp. It has statestatutes, regulations, we have
discussion forums, news, blogs,events and event calendar, lots
of useful information for theworkers comp industry. And that,
of course, is provides advertiseand that's one of the services

(05:19):
that we offer. But what a lot ofpeople don't realize is we do a
lot of work behind the scenes indata and forms management work
for TPAs insurers self insuredemployers, our primary product
is a product called Work Compresearch.com, which is a
subscription service. It's amulti jurisdiction compliance
tool for people trying to manageclaims across multiple

(05:39):
jurisdictions, you know, 3700continually updated reg reg.
Judicial jurisdictional forms,US keyword searchable rules and
statutes, Compliance Center,calculators, all sorts of tools,
cheat sheets, customizable cheatsheets, topic comparison center,
that's, that's our primaryproduct. Out of that we support

(05:59):
to others. What protocolflashrom SSL, which will auto
populate data, auto populatejurisdictional forms out of a
claim system or software thataccesses our library of forms.
And we have a virtual claimskit, which is really a digital
distribution of posting notices,brochures and other other
products that are required, whenunderwriting issues a new

(06:24):
policy, or when there's arenewal, you go to some of
probably 50% of the largestinsurance companies in the
company country use thatproduct. And it's been very,
very successful, hit some painpoints with that one. I'd like
to tell you, we're justbrilliant and think of all these
great ideas. But the reality iswe just answer the phone and
answer questions. And yet, wethink we can do that. And if we
can answer a pain point, we'llwe'll try and do it. So those

(06:46):
are our primary products. That'sgreat. I

Greg Hamlin (06:48):
know, our department, our company, in
particular, relies on on yourorganization, just to make sure
we're not messing up our forms,because like you said, You've
got 50 variants, and arechanging all the time. And if
you're operating in more thanone or two states, it's hard to
make sure you've got the mostcurrent form, and that you're
doing things the right way.

Bob Wilson (07:07):
It's true. You know, I've become friends with a good
number of regulators over theyears in my work with SOC and
the IBC. And I always thank themfor continually changing forms
and updating and keeping thingscomplex and confusing, because
frankly, it's keeping us inbusiness. The states change
between 204 100 forms everyquarter, on average, that has
dropped during the COVID era,it's been a little less. But

(07:32):
it's it's really for a companythat's not specializing and
trying to keep up with thatdata, and you're just trying to
work within the confines of ofthose changes. It's very
difficult. And I know several ofthe Berkeley companies use the
virtual claims kit and some ofthe other products that we have.
So we always appreciate that.

Mike Gilmartin (07:48):
Well, I think it's you know, it's funny, you
said, you know, I I wouldventure a guess I mean, I've
been doing this 15 years, buteven 20 years ago, I would say
big insurance companies haven'talways put a ton of focus on
compliance and making sure theyhave the right form something
else. And every year, I feellike it ratchets up and
penalties ratchet up and ratchetup. And everyone, there's such a

(08:10):
huge focus on it. Now, I guessfor you looking at it as a
whole, what is the biggestchange you've seen over the time
you've been doing this in theindustry?

Bob Wilson (08:18):
Well, biggest change in the industry, a couple that
you touched on. One is you know,as state budgets get tighter and
tighter, and it's harder forthese agencies to for some of
the advantage on their theirfiscal structure to fund their
operations. Frankly, insurersbecome a target because there's
money there if they can be ifpenalties can be assessed. In
some states, it goes into thegeneral fund, but in some

(08:40):
states, it goes directly to fundthe the agency that oversees you
guys. And we've definitely seena shift there. And some of the
fines we've heard of are morearbitrary. I won't name the
state. But we have one clientwho told us prior that they'd
had a problem with a formwasn't, wasn't because we

(09:01):
provided the wrong form. But thestate had come to them and said
they used it too often. And theywanted a pretty hefty fine, just
because they determined they usethe form too often. I don't even
know what that means. Butapparently someone in the
regulatory level did.

Mike Gilmartin (09:15):
It's called moving the goalposts. Yeah,
basically,

Bob Wilson (09:18):
you're right, you're right. When you can only kick a
ball five feet, you got to justmove the goalposts a little bit
make it a little closer. Youknow, you asked about some of
the changes in the industry overthe 20 years, there have been a
few negative changes. But I haveto say overall, I think there
have been a lot more positivechanges I've seen than I have
negative negative change wouldbe we have failed to really

(09:39):
prepare for the gray tsunami ofretirement that is now upon us.
And I think we have a lot ofwork to catch up to cover for
that. One on a really positivelevel. You know, when I first
joined this industry 20 Someyears ago, case loads were
extraordinarily high. Foradjusters they're still high,
but they're not as high overallas they used to be. And there

(09:59):
were is a real strong processand close mentality. And some of
us for a long time have beenclamoring for what we call a
little more humanity in thesystem a little more empathy
towards the position andsituations that injured workers
are in and a recognition that ifwe start treating them with an
understanding treat the wholeperson versus versus just a body

(10:21):
part that will actually savemoney and get better outcomes,
and you will have happier peopleall the way around. And I think
the positive thing for me is,you know, when we first started,
a lot of started talking, a fewof us started talking about that
over a decade ago, it was kindof a lonely field, now, it's
becoming much more common. I wasat the WCI conference in Orlando

(10:42):
in December, and a lot of theirsessions were focused on
advocacy based claims, claimsmanagement, you know, really
along the lines of recognizingthe humanity and treating the
whole person, which which soundssomewhat soapy on the surface,
but actually is a good businessstrategy in my mind, because it
actually makes far betteroutcomes. And if you can reduce

(11:04):
litigation, I think, you know,it's a positive step. And I've
seen a lot more of that inrecent years. It's it's really
encouraging trend to see.

Greg Hamlin (11:13):
Yeah, that's one of my, obviously, one of my big
passion points is just I think,if we treat if we do things the
right way, and we treat peoplethe right way, it turns out more
often than not, we get a betterout. Exactly. And everybody wins
in that scenario.

Bob Wilson (11:26):
Exactly. You know, sometimes when I speak at
conferences, I will ask people,you know, these are largely
compliant claims, people andprofessionals in the industry.
If you're an adjuster, and yougot a new file on your desk,
what's your single overridinggoal for that file? And
inevitably, it's close. That'sthe goal. I want to close it,
you know, thank you have a niceday, but don't have it here. And

(11:47):
there's not a lot of thoughtabout what happens after there
hasn't been traditionally a lotof thought about what happens to
that person after it's closed.
And certainly ever, I canunderstand why you want to close
files, but you want to closethem with proper results. Yeah,
you know, if we can avoiddisability, get more focused on
disability avoidance. It's justbetter, it's better for our
society. And I think it's,again, if we do it right, you

(12:09):
could do it with lesslitigation, which is where a lot
of that money goes, that getswasted.

Mike Gilmartin (12:16):
I think part of that point. And I think part of
one of the issues we've runinto, over the last however many
years, as we've continuallyasked adjusters to become
experts in more and more things,there are more fields to fill
out CMS issues that you need tobe experts on. I mean, you need
to be jurisdictional experts youneed MSA experts need to be and

(12:37):
it's really hard to be all thosethings. And they continue to
think about the bottom line,which is the care of the injured
worker and getting them back towork and everything out, right.
Which is why I you know, acompany in a group like yours
are big deals in our industry.
Because if you ask the adjustersto be experts at everything,
you're not going to be an expertat that. And so having people
like you guys that do that work,and that can figure out what

(12:58):
regulations are aware of whatneeds to be done. And automating
some of that for groups is a bigdeal, because I couldn't agree
more with the empathy thing. ButI think what we forget, is even
when I started adjusting theamount of fields, you had to
fill it, I mean, that everythingelse was nothing like it was 10
years later, I mean, the amountof information we asked people
to collect, right Stewart's ofit's quite unbelievable. And I

(13:20):
think it's, it's, the more wecan take out of adjusters hands,
they can do that work. And forexample, the things you guys do
make a big difference to the atthe end of the day to be able to
do the things we're talkingabout. And there's not a
question there. I just I justthink it's an interesting point.

Bob Wilson (13:35):
No, no, I think not only that, doing that you're
exactly right. And but add tothat, that some adjusters have
200 250 files on their desk,right? None, they don't have it
anymore. And I'm not going toname the it's it's a it's
actually a monopolistic state.
They had 300 files, their theirclaims, people oh my gosh,
you're not you're not managing aclaim. You're just putting out

(13:57):
fires when they erupt on yourdesk. You know, it's one of the
things we talk about inconferences too, is you put
yourself in the position of thatinjured worker. First, we have
to understand, I do a sessioncalled the wild and wacky world
of workers comp, which actuallyis really there. There's one
takeaway from the session isthat nobody outside our industry
understands anything about ourindustry, they don't understand

(14:19):
how it works. So when they havean accident, first off, their
employer stops talking to them.
They get sent to the emergencyroom to a doctor, they wait a
day or two they get a call fromsomeone they don't know who
works for a company they'venever heard of who mentioned
something about timely betpaying benefits timely and
investigating their claim now asfar as they knew they fell down

(14:41):
and broke their ankle. Theydidn't know that their claim
needed to be investigated. Andthen they wait their doctors
busy and won't answer theirquestions won't return their
calls. They do the adjuster isbusy and can't quite often can't
get back to them. You knowprobably that free one of the
three points of contact was avoicemail because they never
answer the phone, you know, theinjured worker doesn't answer

(15:02):
the phone. And then they sit athome. And they wonder and
they've got mortgage, they'vegot a spouse that wants to know
where the next paycheck iscoming from. They don't
understand what's coming.
Meanwhile, on the phone, you'vegot Larry, the lawyer telling
them that if they've been hurtat the job, they need to hire a
lawyer because they're gonna getscrewed. And the backyard,
they've got an idiot brother inlaw who lives in the trailer,
you know, everyone's got one ofthese brother in laws, right?
Who knows absolutely everythingin the world except how to keep

(15:23):
a job. Yep, that he better hirea lawyer and he gets screwed. So
he goes out and he hires alawyer. And guess what? The
lawyer doesn't answer theircalls. So I mean, because
everyone's so busy andcommunication in the industry
has not been a real strongpoint. So it really does spiral
quickly beyond that, not justbecause the adjuster has to know
absolutely everything abouteverything. And you're right, my

(15:45):
company prides itself on tryingto solve some of those problems,
shameless plug. But it reallydoes come down to there's just
too much of it the way we've gotit structured a tradition, that
is that is getting better. Ithink I've seen decreasing
workloads on some of thesecompanies, you know, recognize
that that is not an economicalway to run the business.

Mike Gilmartin (16:07):
I was just I was in WCI conference as well, when
I was on a panel. And the numberone thing I talked about 45
minutes was communication andthe lack of interest. I mean,
it's it's very simple stuff.
It's not rocket science. But ifyou actually people forget very
quickly that the injured workerhas no clue what's going on.
Right? We understand where theydon't. So how do we do better at
upfront, explaining it to them,letting them know the process,

(16:30):
the comfort level of knowing theprocess, man, I couldn't agree
more of what you said, it's ait's a huge problem. But if you
take a step back, and you givepeople the right workloads and
the right information, it's verydoable.

Bob Wilson (16:43):
We get because people don't understand the
industry. They think that a lotof people, a lot of people
believe that there's this big,nebulous agency that's, you
know, sets the premium rates,issues, the policies pays the
claims. And of course, theywould have a website, if it was
workers compensation, and thewebsite would probably be

(17:04):
workers compensation.com.
Therefore, we get tons of emailsand phone calls from people,
employers and employees who arelost. They're really looking for
information we get subpoenaedfor medical records, we get we
get mail and medical bills forworkers comp agencies from all
over all over the country.
There'll be literally I've hadthe workers, Mitt bills, medical

(17:26):
bills sent to workman's compWyoming at PO Box 2432,
Sarasota, Florida 34230. We'vegot him from Utah, we've had him
from New York, we weresubpoenaed five times from a law
firm by a law firm in New York,it was a third party medical
claim. Third party damage claimthat they were looking for all
the claim files, we get them allthe time. So actually, not only

(17:48):
to people outside the industrynot know our process. Sometimes
people inside our industryaren't very familiar with them,
either.

Greg Hamlin (17:55):
That's crazy.
That's crazy. You're in a you'rein a unique position, Bob,
because most of the people weinterview either they're there
on the TPA side, or they're onthe carrier side, where because
of where you're sitting, you'rekind of getting maybe more of a
5000 foot view on what's goingon in the industry, because
you're seeing it at this,whether it's a state fund, or,
you know, some of the vendorsI'm sure you run into too. And

(18:17):
one of the things I wanted tofocus on today with you, too, is
just talking about changingworker's compensation, and what
does that look like? And thereare so many moving pieces going
on right now in a COVID world.
Hopefully, we're soon moving toa post COVID world. I don't know
that we're there yet. Now thatwe have this Omni cranberry, and

(18:37):
I was just sharing with Bobbefore the call or family now
has had it the second time. Andwe've of course been vaccinated,
but it's a it's a challengingworld Schools are shut down.
People are trying to figure outhow to again, teach their kids
while they're working. Andoffices are trying to reopen and
some are stumbling, some aremoving to remote. And so I guess

(19:00):
my curiosity is what are whatare some of your thoughts on how
this industry's workforcetransitions when we get out of a
COVID world?

Bob Wilson (19:10):
Well, I would first actually say how impressed I was
that worker's compensationtransitioned as deftly, as it
did as smoothly as it did at thestart of the pandemic. If you
had told me five years ago thatwe would be able to overnight
adopt a new technology new tous, telemedicine, tele
telecommunications, or visitvideo communications. I would

(19:33):
have been shocked but we didwhat we had to do. And I think
that ultimately has forced us toembrace technologies that would
have otherwise taken years togain acceptance. I think going
forward obviously, remote workis going to affect our industry
in two different ways. Oneremote work is here to stay for
a lot of companies, eithereither a full time remote or a

(19:54):
hybrid situation of two or threedays a week at home couple days
in the office. For our industry.
It's interesting because is notonly do we have to function in
that environment, we also haveto manage claims that are
produced out of thatenvironment. And I COVID has
been kind of unique all the wayin that respect that not only
are we dealing with it asemployers, but we're dealing
with it's the end product COVIDhas been foisted upon us, within

(20:15):
the industry in most in manystates. I think going forward
though, any of the supervisorsmid management and upper level
managers who are locked in thatnine to five traditional work
mentality are going to struggle.
remote work is a differentanimal where people may not
necessarily work nine to fiveeye and you really need to start

(20:39):
focusing there are those peoplewho focus on how do I put it on
effort versus outcome effortversus, you know, they see
someone at the desk, they wantyou at your desk, they think
your desk working doesn'tnecessarily mean you're
producing anything. You have tolook at the end result. My own
company has gone virtual out ofthis, we had an office in

(21:00):
downtown Sarasota still have itone guy goes in every day, we
went virtual when the pandemichit, we reopened the office
halfway through, the numbersstarted climbing in Florida, we
closed it again. And I got a lotof pushback when the reopened
and I'm a small company withlike 12 employees in our office,
and we have some independentcontractors who do writing for
our new center. Some reporters,we had some people who just

(21:21):
didn't want to make the commute,you know, and I have to be
honest, I've suddenly become oneof them. It's a 40 minute drive
now from where I live to theoffice. And it's like, traffic
here is gotten very heavy,Florida is booming. Everybody's
moving here. It seems like butwe we decided to go remote. And
the reality is we made somechanges, we have a daily Zoom

(21:43):
meeting with everybody, it's allhands on board Monday through

Friday at 10 (21:47):
30am. We have a Zoom meeting, I'm not a big fan
of meetings, it may be 510minutes long, it may be half an
hour long. Some days, we may noteven discuss business, but it
does become our water coolertime. I think one of the biggest
challenges on remote work isbeing isolated and not feeling
part of a greater team, orhaving a focus or awareness of
what else is going on thecompany. And the Zoom meetings

(22:08):
every day have for us solve thatproblem. Now bigger companies
obviously can't get everybody atonce. But certainly departments
should be able to bring peoplein and, and have that daily
communication in an environmentwhere now a lot of people are
remote and isolated if thatworks. And I think that's gonna
be one of the biggest changes ismaintaining those lines of
communication and sense of team.
In an environment whereeveryone's working at home,

(22:32):
though for a lot of people areworking at home.

Greg Hamlin (22:35):
Good insight

Mike Gilmartin (22:36):
that goes that goes directly to kind of the
next talking point, you know, asthe as the president of an
organization, I'd be interestedto hear your thoughts. But with
that, and I really agree withyou, I think we're kind of the
changes here to say and and inmy opinion, it'll probably get
more and more remote as wecontinue down the line. But how
do you continue your culturewhen it comes to hiring and

(22:58):
onboarding and not having thatface to face? And I think we all
started with right? I know, Gregdoes we do I mean, interviewing
is different. How you bringpeople into the company is
different. And we work in aworld where people really need
to feel like they're a part of ateam because there's so much to
learn in our industry. How doyou How are you doing that your
company? Or what are yourthoughts on how you do that

(23:20):
successful?

Bob Wilson (23:21):
Well, you've touched on the biggest challenge, I
think with the remoteenvironment is hiring and
training, onboarding employees.
We've hired two people duringthe pandemic, good people, but
training has been difficult.
It's a learning curve on whatyou can do. You know, there's a
lot, there's a lot you can learnjust by almost I want to say
osmosis by being aroundconversations and listening to

(23:42):
the processes, and getting toknow what people do in the
company. And when you don't havethat in person contact. It's
very difficult. I've got like Isaid, the two people we hired I
know spent a longer time tryingto come up to speed to what
we've gotten. I think a lot ofthat is just the fact that we
were remote and trying to do itremotely. And it's the first

(24:02):
time we've done it in thatmanner. And we've learned a few
things along the way. I stillthink you know, even though we
are going to like for ourselvesmaintain a virtual presence. And
we'll downsize the office, Iwill still maintain a physical
location somewhere conferenceroom and an office with a couple
of desks where we used to joke iThree years ago, I would never

(24:23):
told you I'd want to run avirtual company. I just I used
to joke that I like to getpeople together in a room. And
we can come to a boneheadeddecision much faster than any
large corporation can becausewe're small and nimble. And
people together consult those,you know, can address those
issues or come to come tohopefully good conclusions. I
still want to be able to dothat. I still believe that you
need to get physically incontact and be in the same room

(24:47):
periodically. So we're stillgoing to try and maintain that
even though it will be you know,maybe once or twice a month
versus every single day. And Ithink there's just there's no
doubt that the train trainingnew employees in a virtual
environment is very, verydifficult because it's, it's
very hard for them to establishthe team. But again, our daily

(25:08):
calls have helped bring peopleup to speed and onboard because
a lot of the questions can beaddressed during those calls.

Greg Hamlin (25:14):
I think that's going to be a huge challenge.
And that's something I'm stilltrying to wrap my brain around
when I think about it in that.
And if you think when I, when Iwas starting out in the
industry, almost 20 years ago,we had just kind of gone through
the transition where a lot ofthe bigger fortune 100 companies
had shut down their localoffices, and created regional
offices that would cover seven810 states. And I love those

Bob Wilson (25:38):
companies, by the way, because suddenly you're the
adjuster who picks up seven newstates love.

Greg Hamlin (25:43):
Yeah, like I'd be encouraged. But, you know, I
think what we may see, or whatI'm starting to see is companies
are looking at now with this newvirtual situation that, well, if
I need somebody in Pennsylvania,I could just hire that person in
Pennsylvania, and they couldwork from their house, and we
don't maybe need that sameregional footprint. But then I
guess my thought is, how do youget to bringing new people into

(26:07):
the industry? And what does thatlook like when you're spread
out? And I don't know that we'vecracked that nut. But I'm just
curious what your thoughts areon? How do you find the next
college graduates or people whomaybe in other industries you
can invite into this? And how dothey learn? Where like, when I
think about when I was training,probably this way for Mike, you

(26:28):
know, I had a manager, I alsohad a senior that I could just
lean over and turn my deskaround and say, you know, I have
a question, how do you do this?
And then when I felt like Ibothered Kim too much, I could
go over to John, on the otherside of it. I think I've asked
him three questions today, Ineed to save this next one for
John, you know, thoughts on howwe get to that?

Bob Wilson (26:48):
I wish I had the answers to all that because it
is a challenge it is. First off,I think there's a big
discussion, obviously, about howdo we attract proper people into
the industry to begin with, andI will tell you that worker's
compensation, in my view, gets abad rap in the public eye. And
it's a part of it's our ownfault. You know, we've talked

(27:09):
about the process and closedmentality, the heavy workload
for adjusters, the, you know,you're stuck in a cubicle, maybe
it's a good thing, that peoplewill not be stuck in cubicles
all the time, it may actually bean attraction that you can now
work at home. I think, you know,when you're in one to 300
cubicles on a floor, and you'vegot all these files, and you're
on the phone all day with peoplewho generally don't like you, or

(27:30):
are unhappy, they're unhappy,because, you know, think about
the nature of our business.
Nobody, you know, wants to talkto you until somebody's hurt,
you know, and then when they'rehurt, they're in pain, they're
scared, they're angry, you know,I know a lot of injured workers
that are angry. And usually, I'mhard pressed, sometimes it's
hard pressed to find the injuredworker who is responsible for

(27:52):
their own injury, there'susually it's usually the boss
who may rush them at work or atsomething, you know, so they're
angry at things and they'reangry at the situation they're
in. So it's kind of a negativeenvironment environment, we
should market ourselves to newemployees as an industry that
can restore broken lives, we canactually take a broken life and
help restore. I think a lot ofit is our own language. You

(28:14):
know, if you're coming out ofhigh school, especially, or
college generation, generationscoming out of school, now they
say, you know, they want to makea difference in the world, they
want to have a difference. Well,you can do that if you want to
take someone whose life has beeninjured and make it better,
that's something but when youtalk about being an adjuster who
processes claims, it losessomething our own language

(28:36):
doesn't help us attract theright people to these positions.
You know, getting the rightpeople in door would be a
challenge. And we have to marketourselves appropriately to do
that. Beyond that, I think wehave to take advantage in the
remote environment, have all thetools, you may actually have to
have physical time together,there's still need to be offices
where people can go and worktogether in the training

(28:56):
process. And then beyond that,you know, I've worked with some
at some of the one of the guyshave been with me since we
started 22 years ago. And youknow, we used to chat up a storm
in the office. Now we end up onthe phone sometimes just to
catch up and find out what'sgoing on. We've got to make that
effort to continue tocommunicate either virtually you
know, I don't know if you'venoticed phone calls seem to be
dead. Whenever you set up acall, you get a zoom link. Now,

(29:19):
no one uses the telephoneanymore. But it's still an
excellent tool to be able topick up and ask those three
questions of John and one of Jimor Sally, when you're trying to
learn the position to beavailable for those people. I
sent some rambling, so I'll stopnow.

Mike Gilmartin (29:36):
No, I think you both made really good points. I
think you're the flip side ofhow do we attract more people
into the industry. There's a wayyou can look at the virtual
world we're moving to in apositive light my opinion that's
that your talent pool whereas ifwe want to hire an adjuster in
Maryland historical event,obviously Marilyn we're hiring
somebody. Now if I have somebodythat I need for my Maryland

(29:58):
team, my pool has opened Up toall 50 states if I needed to.
And so you're already attractingand I guess in terms of any
positive spin on it, that willbe one in terms of your talent
pool has now opened up becauseyou have the Virtual Ability to
train people and bring people onand everything else. But you
guys both hit on it. And I don'tknow how you fix it. But the
osmosis of being around people,especially in claims is still

(30:20):
huge, and probably big in allindustries. But yeah, I mean, I
remember ADA Williams sat behindme and liberty when I first
started, and I just listened toher talk all day on the phone,
and you're like, these are thekinds of conversations to have,
what did you do there? How didyou do this? Why did you do
that? And he will listen to youand say, Hey, man, you probably
shouldn't say that next time, orhey, maybe you should do
something different.

Bob Wilson (30:40):
Yeah, yep. We all learn from what we shouldn't.
That's right,

Mike Gilmartin (30:45):
exactly. But you know, and Jabra and all those
things, and whatever, you know,platforms, you use work. But
yeah, my question is the same. Ijust don't know how you you
replace that. And so I agreewith you. I think always having
some kind of physical presenceis good. But it's a hard
question to answer, in myopinion. I don't know. I mean,

Greg Hamlin (31:03):
yeah, I think, I think we're gonna see who
figures it out, becausesomebody's gonna have to, for
sure, we're trying some things,but I'm not ready to say that
they're winning ideas. Yeah.

Bob Wilson (31:14):
And it's tough. It's tough. Because there are some
companies out there I'm lookingat I mean, what there are some
states, of course, that requirephysical licensing and someone
to be physically located in thestate. And that still presents
some problems, you know, and tothat air, the legal and
regulatory world always lagstrends and technology in terms
of catching up. And that's notnecessarily the regulator's

(31:37):
fault, I actually have a lot ofsympathy for the regulators in
this country, I think they havea very difficult job, I'm not as
sympathetic to the legislatorsof the country, who continually
try to fix our system when theydon't understand what they're
fixing. And they usually fix itto the tune of whoever got their
ear in this particularlegislative session. But then
the regulators have to takewhatever they're given and make

(31:58):
sense out of it, and make itwork for everybody. So part of
one of those issues is we needto get rid of some of those
licensing requirements orphysical location in a state
because it's becoming less andless relevant. But yeah, your
point that the consolidation isimpacting people, but it also is
broadening the horizons as topeople being able to work in
multiple states and acrossmultiple areas from a from a

(32:20):
remote location.

Greg Hamlin (32:22):
I agree. You were talking some about change there,
Bob. And, and I know you've beenin this a long time. If you
could have a magic wand, and youcould change something in this
industry, and it would just bedone and solved. What would be
what would be the thing?

Bob Wilson (32:39):
Well, yeah, that's a softball question for me. So
thanks for that. It's a and bythe way, I've been told that I
couldn't make myself chancellorof the realm. That's really what
I want to be is Chancellor Well,no, I have been. My bandwagon
for over a decade now is thatthe workers compensation
industry is not properlybranded, we are misbranded. We

(33:00):
have a discussion forum onworkers compensation.com. And
it's open to anybody but it'sdominated by injured workers,
they seem to have more time ontheir hands than a lot of us.
And interestingly, during COVID,particularly last year, dramatic
drop off in activity on thatforum, I don't really have an
answer to it. There are a coupleother forums out there. I've
seen the same thing, big dropoffs. And I don't know why. But,

(33:23):
you know, over over the life ofthe forum, it's 160, some 1000
posts and 17,000 threads. Imean, it's very active forum.
For 20 years, we've seen areally common theme of a new
injured worker coming into thediscussion forum, they will
leave a very long description ofwhat happened to them their
particular injury, what happenedwith the employer, they got sent
to the doctor, they don't knowwhat you know, they, and they're

(33:44):
looking for answers. They haveno idea what's going to help.
But they always seem to end thedescription with a variant of
the same question. And that is,you know, this is what happened
to me, how much will I make? Howbig will my settlement be? And I
think when you think about it,and this is really been an
education, you mentionedearlier, how we have access to
all the players in the industryfrom a really pretty neutral

(34:05):
position. And that's true. It'sbeen a really unique spot. And
by the way, our discussion forumis an education curve for any
new adjuster. You want to learnhow injured workers think and
what their views are, spend sometime on the discussion forums.
But when you think about it, youdon't know anything about the
system and you have an injuryand you're told you need to file
a workers compensation claim andin many states are sent to a
workers compensation doctor. Andthen you're given a worker's

(34:25):
compensation adjuster. They allfocus on the word compensation.
And they don't understand it,particularly in the context that
we're statutory to statutorilydefined to provide it. They you
know, they often have muchdifferent expectations and what
they should be getting from whatthey really are. And, to me,
that has led me to believe thatwe really should be called

(34:47):
workers recovery. And that'sbeen my big issue for over a
decade. I think that simple wordchange would be a paradigm
shift, not just for peoplecoming into the system to set
different expectations. But forpeople within the system who are
suddenly it goes beyond that, ifI'm king for a day I've made
wave my magic wand, we would becalled workers recovering, we

(35:08):
wouldn't have adjusters anymore,get rid of the adjusters,
they're all going to be calledrecovery specialists. Screw the
guys in subrogation, they'llhave to get different titles,
but they recovery specialistsand we wouldn't have injured
workers we would have from dayone recovering workers, they
would be referred to asrecovering workers, because
you're setting differentexpectations to a point of
recovery, versus a point ofcompensation and possible

(35:31):
disability. And I really dothink we, you know, disability,
in my mind, I come to detest theconcept of disability, because
we are an industry thatunfortunately can take an
impairment and create adisability from that impairment.
And we've all known injuredworkers who have impairment and
go on to recover and have a veryproductive and successful life.

(35:51):
And then we know people who havethe exact same injury, and they
spiral down and completely fail.
And part of what we're talkingabout is setting different
expectations in that process, tofocus on a recovery mindset,
versus a process and closementality. So I really do think
shifting it. And I've actuallyseen some, I mean, one of your
companies has a workers recoveryunit. And Greg, I know it's the

(36:13):
sister company. Yes. Yeah,continental Western, they have
workers recovery unit thrilledme to death when I found out
about that I can't take creditfor it. But it was a you know,
it's the same concept. I justgot an email yesterday from a
risk manager at a very largecompany out west, who's got the
opportunity to rename herworkers comp program, and she's

(36:34):
talking about am I still talkingabout workers recoveries, it's
still a viable option. So Ireally would like the
regulator's in the states tochange it. That's where it needs
to change, I only need one,because once I can get one state
to change, it'll all go. But ifwe have to do it from the ground
up with insurance companies andprivate employers embracing that
recovery mindset, I think we youknow, that's what we'd like to

(36:55):
do. So that's what I would do.
If I were king for a day, I willtell you, Washington State
revamped their entire vocationalprogram, and they called it the
vocational recovery program. AndI was very honored. I was
speaking at a conference outthere and Ryan Guppy, who was at
that time, the chief ofpartnership for return to work
programs, gave me credit or gavecredit to the recovery use of

(37:16):
the recovery term to what I hadbeen promoting. That's probably
the only little impact I've beenable to have so far. That's
because I'm not king for a dayand can't wave my magic wand. So
but that's what I would do.

Mike Gilmartin (37:27):
I think that's a great point. I think it's a
really good initiative. I wishmore people were on board with
that. And I think it parlaysinto the next thought I have a
question. You said somethingearlier about how surprised you
were that when COVID hit theentire industry was able to move
virtual, and it really didn'tslow anybody down. I mean, it
was kind of tough. And because Iagree with you, I think workers

(37:47):
comp generally lags behindeverything. And insurance
companies in general generallylag behind on technology and
everything else. But you justkind of spend the last 10
minutes overlaying one of thebiggest issues we have, and
everyone seems very slow to pickup on is this whole idea of
empathy and kind of rebrandingwho we are and what our purpose

(38:07):
is? Why do you think there issuch a lag? In I mean, caseload
is even like it's gettingbetter, but it's still not where
it needs to be. Why is there somuch lag time on doing things
that you and me and Greg wouldlikely see as common sense, do
it because you have an outsideview? If you're not involved in
the insurance company level, youhave an outside view of all of

(38:28):
us? Why are we being so stupid?
Bob, I guess would be thequestion. Or,

Bob Wilson (38:34):
like, I'd like to state because they are my
customers, they're not stupid,we're not going to call my
customers stupid.

Mike Gilmartin (38:40):
I also thought you would say being king per
day, the requirement will bethat every insurance company
must sign up and you have acontract for workers
compensation back.

Bob Wilson (38:49):
That would be an assumed and by the way, I also
own the domain workersrecovery.com Because I'm not
stupid. Okay. I mean, you know,I am not stupid, I will tell you
that. I tell people mama onlyraised Ugly Children, but we are
a really risk averse industry. Imean, when you think about it, I
mean, we manage risk, and weactually, we deal with the

(39:12):
fallout of improper riskmanagement is really what we do
in a lot of situations. veryhesitant to change, very
reluctant to be the first oneout of the gate, okay. No one
wants to be first. You know, werolled out the virtual claims
get number of years ago and itwas a request of the insurance

(39:34):
company who used our forms andsaid Are these license for
public distribution? We said no,not but we could talk about
that. How do we then we createda virtual claims get the brands
through a company's website. AndI was on a call one day with a
competence a very good clientthey've been they've they're
what we call a trifecta client.
They have our three primaryproducts, but they were looking
at the virtual claims kit and Iwas on a call one day and had

(39:56):
been talking to him for over ayear and There were 33 people on
their Feasibility Committee.
Okay, they had a FeasibilityCommittee. And there was me on
my side of the call. And I wastraveling somewhere, as I said,
a conference something and I wason my cell phone. And I remember
one of the people on the callsaying, you know, Bob, when we
first started talking about thevirtual claims get a year and a
half ago, only one company haddeployed the solution. How many

(40:20):
other companies have deployedit? I said, I actually said, and
I was a little snarky, but itgot a lot of laughs. I said,
Well, the answer to yourquestion lies in the middle of
your question. We first startedtalking about this, a year and a
half ago, and everyone startedlaughing at someone, someone
else said, Yeah, we're moving atlightning speed do takes a long

(40:44):
time to go through decisions,you know, I, and I don't mean
this to be critical, because Iwill tell you what, there are a
lot of really good people inthis industry. And that's one
thing that I think keeps peoplein the industry is there are a
lot of people who really want todo the right thing. In a very
difficult, heavily regulatedenvironment, they want to be
able to do the right thing bypeople. And that's something

(41:05):
that's not known outside theindustry that we don't get that
credit for that. But they, Ilistened to some of these calls,
I'll be on calls with very bigcorporations. And I often joke
that Dilbert is alive and wellin corporate America, because I
will listen to them talk abouthaving to negotiate access to
resources within their owncompany, to be able to do things

(41:26):
to utilize a certain product.
And it really is interesting tolisten to that type of internal
structure. Because companies,some of these large companies
are so heavily siloeddepartments don't really talk to
each other. And I think thatthat slows down the adoption of
new technologies. And there's ageneral mistrust of new things
when this is the way we'vealways done it. And so if

(41:48):
there's a benefit of COVID, isin many levels, it shattered
that barrier, because wecouldn't do it that way on, you
know, on March 2, we could, andon March 3, we could not. And
that really forced people toscrap their concerns, and reach
out and adapt. And I think thatthat's been helpful. But I think

(42:10):
that's why we've been slow to,to adopt new new trends and
technologies, just because weare a very risk averse industry.
And no one wants to be the firstone in the pool.

Greg Hamlin (42:23):
I hope it doesn't take a nother worldwide pandemic
or catastrophic disaster for usto facilitate the next level of
change. But, but But what do youwhat do you think needs to
change? Or what needs to happento facilitate that change at a
faster pace? You mentionedsilos? I don't know. You know, I

(42:43):
guess our model is a littledifferent than some, but I think
many companies are still goingto be siloed in the next few
years. What what could move theneedle forward on some of this?
Well,

Bob Wilson (42:54):
I think the trend of new generations coming into the
workforce, you know, Gen Z andGen Y, who knows the I don't
even know who's coming after zare like five generations in the
workforce. Now, thoseexpectations from some of those
newer generations will forcechange in the way we do things.

(43:14):
So we want to attract them, wewant to keep them, we want to be
productive with them, we'regoing to have to do that. And I
think communication, we have toimprove our levels of
communication. We ashistorically, I think as an
industry, we've not done a greatjob of communicating with
injured workers or with eachother. You know, and again, part
of that is working in a fairlyheavily regulated structured

(43:35):
environment, this is the way wedo it. And this is what the
state requires. We have to getmore accustomed to talking to
one another, again, challengingin a remote environment for
everyone who's going to beremote. But I think we have to
improve our lines ofcommunication, both internally
and externally.

Greg Hamlin (43:52):
Great points, great points, and I would add my two
cents to it is I think we needto have leaders who feel like
they have the freedom to makechanges, and not feel afraid to
fail. Exactly. Because there'sgonna be some mistakes along the
way, too. I always say anytimeyou try to innovate and do
something new, it's messy. Andthat's why people don't want to
do it is there's there's alwayssnags, there's always problems,

(44:16):
and usually you're justdirectionally moving in the
right place. Normally, you don'thave that Apple moment where
it's like, This is amazing.
There's these directional, whereit's like, okay, we took two
steps forward, but we'redefinitely gonna have to take a
step back because some of thisdid not work. Right.

Bob Wilson (44:32):
Absolutely. That is a fantastic point. I read a meme
recently that just related tofailures are not are not
disasters, they're educationalopportunities. And I was talking
to a gentleman one time wetalked about I have he had whole
binders of ideas that did notwork. You know, these are the
ideas that didn't work, but youhave to try things. I think

(44:52):
you're right, you've hit on apoint that we were afraid to try
things because we don't want tofail. And the fact is, we can't
change until we fail. Oldenough, every failure is a step
towards what needs to be done.
We joke about in the company alot, because we have, you know,
three or four very successfulproducts. And I have some other
ideas that are on the ash heapof history somewhere. That
seemed like a good idea at thetime. But yeah, you've got to be

(45:14):
able to step out and be willingto try things. Absolutely.

Mike Gilmartin (45:19):
One and the attitude that it doesn't have to
be all done right away, right,like little incremental changes,
first of all, are easier to failand recover from, but it's a lot
easier for people to grasp thedigest if even if something is
better than nothing. Well, Iwould say, if you're gonna learn
from it, right? If you're gonna,it's gonna work, right, if
you're gonna fail, but out of itcomes something different.

(45:39):
That's awesome. But I think yousaid earlier, one of your
clients and what we've beentalking about it for a year and
a half, because no one wants tomake the decision to say, Okay,
we don't do that don't want todo it. Or if we're not going to
do all of it, what part of it?
Or do we want to let's just getstarted with something and see
where we go. And I thinkeveryone always wants all the
information and to know what'sgoing to happen before they make
a decision. And to Greg's point,we need leaders and people that

(46:00):
are willing to say, let's giveit a shot. Let's see what
happens. Right? We're talkingabout the farm, we're talking
about the company, but let's seewhere we go. Right. And those
things all build on each other.

Bob Wilson (46:11):
Yeah, there's, you know, there's a saying that it's
not the big who eat the small,it's the fast to eat the slow.
And you think about that a lot,because I hear a lot of people
complaining about theconsolidation in the industry. A
lot of the vendors that peopleuse have been acquired by a lot
of venture capital money cominginto the industry, a lot of
acquisitions, a lot ofconsolidation. But you see less

(46:33):
and less, you know, peoplecomplaining about less and less
choices for certain servicesthey need within the industry.
And what I actually see iscompanies that are going to get
bigger and bigger and slower,and perhaps become struggled to
be that nimble as they oncewere. And that's an opportunity
for other people to come in andyou see it, you can already see,
you know, the big wave started567 years ago. And you can tell

(46:55):
when the non competes expire,because the old players are back
in with their new small, nimblecompanies come in to chip away
again. And it is an opportunity.
Some of those are opportunitiesfor progress. And competition.
Competition is very healthy,because it makes everyone try
and be you have to be better. SoI don't think that's necessarily
a negative within the industry.

(47:17):
But you're right. I love thefact that you say incremental
change is good. Well, now youtell me. I mean, I should have
known that a long time ago.

Greg Hamlin (47:25):
That's great. Well, Bob, we really enjoyed having
you on this podcast today.
There's there's one thing Iwanted to start doing in season
three, that's a little differentas I wanted to, with each of our
guests. You know, there's somuch negativity out in the world
in general, I felt like there'sjust whether it's on the news,
whether it's, you know, thepandemic, and I thought I would
like to end every one of theepisodes this year with a memory

(47:48):
of a time that you were reallyhappy. And so it doesn't have to
be work comp related at all,Bob, but I wanted to know, if
you would mind sharing with us amemory of a time that just comes
to memory, when you're reallyhappy could be recent could be
further in the past.

Bob Wilson (48:06):
There are several times I mean, I've been very
happy from a businessperspective, when some of our
ideas have taken off and donevery well. You know, when when
you have that feeling ofaccomplishment. Alright. Well,
again, this is all work related.
At the national conferenceseveral years ago, national
workers comp conferences, theones usually in Vegas, it
happened to be in New Orleans,this particular year, the

(48:28):
keynote speaker was Tim East whois the Director of Risk
Management for Disney Corp. Andduring his keynote address, he
talked about the concept ofworker's recovery. And he talked
to him and he mentioned my blog,I write a blog where I've been
promoting it and he talked aboutthe concept he said you know,
it's a really good idea it makessense and I thought you know to
be endorsed by Disney is apretty happy thought for me. I'm

(48:51):
not saying didn't I'm sure I'llhear from the lawyers from
Disney now, Mr. Wilson, you havenot been endorsed by but to have
that level of endorsement andthat recognition was made me
very, very happy I that made myday. He had contacted me prior
to the event to get approval touse my name because we're in a

(49:12):
risk management world and that'swhat risk managers do. Sure,
sure. You know, and it took meabout a nanosecond to say oh
sure, no problem. But that wasthat was really good beyond that
there and there are lots oftimes in your in your private
life and you're very happy youknow that I remember some
vacations with my wife in Mainewe love the state of Maine it's

(49:32):
very relaxing you just enjoy itthere are a lot of things you
know worth living for and therethere will continue to be after
pandemic after what postpandemic we can never get there.
I don't know that's the kind ofcaught me off guard with that. I

Greg Hamlin (49:46):
said, I'm glad I did. I've got excited like both
of those things. And you know, I

Mike Gilmartin (49:51):
think that somebody says the day I was
asked to do adjusted for thisquestion is he wants someone
this season to say now

Bob Wilson (50:00):
I feel I've missed a glorious opportunity. Let me
revise that. Well, it was theday, the day. And actually, your
listeners may not know we've hada little because of COVID and
some other conflicts. It's beenabout what this our third tried
to get this done. I got threeinvitations to be on adjusted.
So I'm really happy.

Greg Hamlin (50:20):
No, I love that answer, though, Bob, because I
think you hit on to two thingsthat I love. One is, if you're
from Florida, or Alabama, andit's the summertime being up
north is a good thing. Whetherthat's Maine or Michigan, I
think Michigan was my spot. Butthere's nothing like 75 degree
weather when you're in the high90s, hundreds down here, and

(50:41):
family times where it's at. Ialso totally agree with you
mentioning, you know, having anidea catch fire or starting to
see the seeds of that and makingan impact. I often think to
myself, when this is all over, Ihope that I've left some kind of
impact impact for the positive.
And so those moments you got tohang on to him when they happen.

Bob Wilson (51:01):
No, I think that's true. You know, the only thing
the bottom line at the end ofthe at the end of the line you
only you can take with you whenyou go is your reputation. And
you want to make sure that itwas right and that you've done
done what you can you're not noone's perfect. We all make
mistakes. But that's reallyimportant. But I will tell you,
my wife will let you know thatI'm famous for taking her to
places at the wrong time of theyear. Now, just before we went

(51:24):
to I had an opportunity to speakin Anchorage, Alaska, and I had
never been to Alaska. It waslike I took it in a heartbeat.
Yes, I'll be happy to. And wewent up there but it was in May.
early May was beautiful. But youknow Denali opens two weeks
after we were there. We can seeit from a distance, but we're
not getting that close. Yeah, mytiming sometimes is off. But it

(51:46):
is there a lot a lot of thoseneat trips and memories that you
have. But there are a lot Ithink, and I'm going to be
misogynist for a moment here.
Men, if you ask a man what hedoes, he will immediately talk
about his job. He'll talk aboutwhat he does for a living.
That's where we often identifyourselves. And I will tell you
that I am one of the mostfortunate people in the world

(52:07):
that for 22 years I have beendoing something that I
absolutely love. And I haveabsolutely no regrets on it's
been a great run and a greatexperience and that and there
aren't many people who can lookback and say that you know in
that respect that level so it'sbeen good, I'm very blessed.

Greg Hamlin (52:25):
I appreciate you Bob I your voice for good and
the industry and I hope peoplewill check out your blog and
your website. I appreciate allyou do to move the needle
forward. And I also appreciateyou taking the time to chat with
us today.

Bob Wilson (52:39):
I appreciate the invitation I thank you this has
been really enjoyable I've had alot of fun with this today
doesn't feel like an interviewat all. You guys are very good
at this so I appreciate that.
Well Thanks Bob.

Greg Hamlin (52:51):
Well I just like to let everybody know that to
continue to check us out you cansee the blog on the off weeks
every other Monday we have anepisode drop we're into season
three now so encourage you ifyou haven't listened to some of
the previous episodes to checkthem out. And as always remember
to do right think differently.
And don't forget to care.
Thanks, guys.