Continuing Education with Bob Wilson

In this episode, ADJUSTED welcomes Bob Wilson President & CEO of WorkCompCollege.com. Bob shares his thoughts on the changes happening within the workers compensation industry.

Season 5 is brought to you by Berkley Industrial Comp. This episode is hosted by Greg Hamlin and guest co-host  Mike Gilmartin, Area Vice President, Sales & Distribution, for Key Risk.

Visit the Berkley Industrial Comp blog for more!
Got questions? Send them to [e-mail]
For music inquiries, contact Cameron Runyan at [e-mail]

Episode Transcript

Greg Hamlin (00:12):
Hello, everybody and welcome to ADUSTED. I'm your
host Greg Hamlin coming at youfrom Berkley Industrial Comp and
Sweet Home Alabama. And with meas my co host for the day, Mike
Gilmartin. Mike, you want tointroduce yourself to everybody?

Michael Gilmartin (00:27):
Yeah. Hello, everybody, Mike Gilmartin B key
risk. I am in sunny Greensboro,North Carolina. It's gonna be
like 80 degrees today, Greg. SoI'm really excited to be second
time. It's awesome.

Greg Hamlin (00:37):
I know, well, hey, having grown up in the Midwest,
I'll take this warmer weatherevery day.
So we've got our special guesttoday, Bob Wilson, who actually
did an episode with us a whileback, he is the president of
work comp college.com. And hasbeen in the industry a long
time. Bob, you want to say hi toeverybody.

Bob Wilson (00:58):
Oh, hello, everybody. Thank you. Thanks,
Greg. Appreciate it.

Greg Hamlin (01:01):
I'm glad to have you, Bob. So if you haven't
followed Bob, Bob has been veryinvolved in worker's
compensation for a number ofyears, and has spoken on many
different comp conferences. Andwe wanted to talk today about
continuing education. And Ithink we joke about this a lot
that none of us when we were inkindergarten, thought we were

(01:22):
going to become workerscompensation experts. And there
aren't really degrees for that.
There are some risk and safetydegrees, I think a few, a few
colleges. But for the most part,everybody got into the industry
one way or another. And so Ifelt like covering a topic of
continuing education will begood. So Bob, I know for you,
it's been a while since we didthis previous episode, I thought

(01:45):
we just start by talking abouthow did you end up in the
industry?

Bob Wilson (01:50):
Well, and we may have even talked about that in
the last time we did this. Andthe answer is probably the same
as everybody else we got, I gothere by accident completely by
accident. I had a background inbusiness management and human
resources. I ended up starting aweb development firm in the 90s,
which was fairly successful. Andthrough that was introduced to a

(02:11):
gentleman who owned the domainworker's compensation.com, and
had never done anything with it.
And we had a common vision forwhat could happen. And we
decided in 1999, to set that up.
And that's what I actually didfor almost 23 years, I ran
worker's compensation.com. And,you know, just you get into this
industry, I tell people, it'slike Hotel California, you can

(02:31):
check out but you can never everleave once you're here, you're
here. And it's a great industry.
And I left that previousposition last year to start
something new. But obviouslywanted to stay stay around.
There's still things to do here.
Absolutely. Wanted to ask thesame question to Mike because I
you know, I posted I don't knowhow many episodes with you might

(02:52):
but I don't think I've everasked you this question. So how
did you? How did you end up inworkers comp? You know, Greg, I
don't really know. No, I'm

Michael Gilmartin (03:01):
appreciate you calling us all experts on
this. Because I'm not sure I'man expert. I'm not sure you can
ever be an expert. No. So I wentto University of Maryland. And I
studied criminal justice. And Ihad high hopes of being you
know, like the next Jason Bourneor like, an FBI agent. And for
one reason or another, thatprocess didn't really work out.

(03:21):
And so my dad was actually aninsurance for 50 years, started
in claims and said, Hey, man,like, why don't you look at
insurance. And so a job openingcame available to a larger
insurance carrier. I went intoit and said, You know what,
we'll give it six months, like,well, we'll do this for six
months, and I'll find someoneelse to do. And it's been almost

(03:42):
15 years. So it's, uh, you know,I didn't mean to, to get into
it. But I've learned a ton alongthe way. I think it's an
unbelievable career. And Ithink, in general, no, there's
some risk management programs incollege, but it's an under,
mostly under unknown field, butit's under utilized how good of
a career path that can be forfolks coming out of college. And

(04:03):
I think the vast majority of usfall into it, and then end up
staying like Bob said, forforever. So I've thoroughly
enjoyed it. You tell everybodyyour story. Greg, what about you
so similar? You just kind oflike decided you were going to
have to work on claims one day?
Yeah,

Greg Hamlin (04:17):
no. So for me, I was also criminal justice major.
And at the time, though, I wasdoing nonprofit fundraising for
Indiana University, and lovedit, love giving back, like
helping people passionate aboutit. I felt like if I could help
people get an education, thenthey could fix a lot of their
own problems, hopefully. So Ireally love doing that. But at

(04:40):
the time, I was young and crazy.
We got my wife and I've beenwe'll be married 20 years coming
up. But we got married while Iwas in college. And so we
already had a baby while I wasgoing to school. And as I was
trying to figure out how tograduate. I met with the people
at the foundation to further mycareer there and they said
you've You got a kid? Do youwant more? And my I said, Well,
my wife jokes that she wants 10.

(05:05):
And he said, then you need toget out of non for profit. You
need to figure something elseout. And I said, Well, I don't,
I don't have a business degree.
I'm a criminal justice major.
And I don't think I want to gointo law school. And so they
said, well go to a career fair,go talk to the business people,
you've been doing the same thingand not for profit, just switch
over and then give back withyour extra time in the nonprofit

(05:26):
sector. So that's kind of theway I've took things. And again,
similar story met a largecarrier at a career fair and
knew absolutely nothing aboutworkers comp. But I knew I
needed a paycheck and a way in,and here I am, almost 20 years
later. So very similar, verysimilar.

Michael Gilmartin (05:45):
What I'm hearing is criminal justice
majors don't do what they go toschool for. That's

Bob Wilson (05:52):
kind of picking that up. I have a nephew who just
graduated from the Carey Schoollaw University of Maryland. And
he's now a he's a new assistantstate's attorney in Frederick,
Maryland, actually, but hedidn't go the criminal justice
route. But he did have to gopursue on beyond into law school
to do something. So apparentlycriminal justice, you end up in
workers comp. Now. Let's see.
Yeah, that's right. A whole blogin there somewhere, I would

(06:13):
think that's exactly

Greg Hamlin (06:15):
right. When I, when I was going to school, 911
happened. So I was a businessmajor to begin with. And when
911 happened, I thought, well,if I switch to criminal justice
in this in this new world,there'll be jobs. And so that
that really why I switched, butI didn't know I would end up in
this space. But it's worked outreally well. Because again, we
get to help people

Michael Gilmartin (06:35):
that are sidebar too quickly. And I think
what that proves is we'retalking about education and
continuing education, unlessyou're going into something very
specific, right. So like ascience or law or things for the
degree truly like what degreeyou get truly matters, what you
major in in college is just astepping stone to get into the
working world. It is not adictation of where you have to
go. And I think people that likeany college students are like,

(06:59):
Man, if I don't do this, I don'tdo this, I don't do this, and
it's not going to work out. AndI think what we've all realized
was what I realized is when Istudied in college has nothing
to do with what I'm doing now. Imean, there were things I
learned in college that I canapply. But I think people put so
much weight on their major andwhat they're they're majoring in
and unless you're going into aspecialized field, really, it's
just a proof that you can do thework to an employer.

Bob Wilson (07:21):
I agree with that. I have a bachelor's degree in
business administration. Andreally in college, what you
learned was the discipline tolearn, and how to then learn
your job once you got out ofcollege. I mean, there were some
things in a business world andbusiness school that certainly
apply. But a lot of it is is youknow, you have to get out of the

(07:41):
Get out of the school and fallon your face a few times in the
trenches. And that's youreducation.

Greg Hamlin (07:46):
I exactly agree with both of you. And I think
that's, especially in thisindustry, and probably all
industries. I think that's wherecontinuing education so
important. Once you get into thecareer that you're moving into.
It's recognizing the skill setsyou need, and then finding the
resources to help you improveand really sharpen your saw. You

(08:08):
know, from your perspective,Bob, why do you feel like
constantly learning soimportant?

Bob Wilson (08:13):
Well, I think because things constantly
change. You know, we're not thesame industry. We weren't 20
years ago, or 30 years ago or 50years ago. We you know it and to
some degree, the this industry,particularly, it's so heavily
regulated and process driven,that there are a lot of things
that we do, because we've alwaysdone it this way. And I think
there are better ways out there.
I am curious, and I think it'sbeen a trend in the industry.

(08:35):
You said you you were in schoolat 911. You just joined the
industry after that one leveland not naming it with your with
a different company than the oneyou're with today. Correct?
Correct. Yeah. Oh, good. So wedon't have to name but we can
talk about? Yes. What was thequality of training that you
went through? 20 years ago? Whatwas the training program? Like
you're a newbie, you don't knowanything about comp? Like the

(08:56):
rest of us when you step in?
What was your training?

Greg Hamlin (09:00):
Yeah, that's a great question. So I think
initially, I probably worked amonth or so where I was, you
know, had a manager that wouldsit with me sometimes or there
was a senior adjuster that wouldhelp. And then sometime in that
period, within the first maybetwo months, maybe six weeks,
they sent me to home office fortwo weeks. And it was two weeks

(09:21):
of generic kind of worker's compclaims training. They couldn't
get into jurisdictionalspecifics, because they were
bringing people in this nationalcare from all over the country.
So you know, but you at leastlearn where the system was and
how to basically investigate aclaim, right? I think we might
have even done a mocknegotiation, but then after

(09:41):
that, it's like you're back atyour desk trying to figure this
stuff out. And what's hard aboutworkers comp and I don't know if
you notice this, Mike, when youstarted out as every claim is
different. And just a couple ofdifferent facts means you gotta
go a totally different route andtrying to understand So the
medical component, the legalcomponent, the jurisdictional

(10:03):
component, the investigativecomponent, how to work with
others how to listen. Like a lotof those things. You know, it's
all it was a lot. It felt like Iwas drinking from the firehose,
especially the first threeyears, I would say, well,

Bob Wilson (10:17):
curious about that.
Because one of the trends Inoticed and I started 99, and I
went a different route, I didn'thave a claims background, I was
an Information Servicesbackground serving the industry.
But one of the things I noticedin my discussions with people
around the country is afterthe.com, bubble burst, which was
early 2000. I know, because Ilaunched a.com operation about
three weeks before it busted, itwas like, showing up at a big

(10:39):
rave three seconds ahead of thecops. But it was, you know,
Where's everybody going. Butprior to that time, training was
probably more prevalent than ithas become in the last 15 years
across the industry. A lot ofafter the investment income for
the insurance industry wentaway, there were some good
programs that got cut, trainingseemed to get cut, and we

(11:01):
concentrated more on stealingeach other's people. And now of
course, we're running out ofpeople to steal. And I think and
that's really been that's kindof what drove us to where we're
where I'm at now is that wethink it's really becoming an
urgent focus to get back andrefocus on the core elements and
train people. So that we canactually keep the people we

(11:22):
bring in because this year, adifferent generation than what's
coming in today. And then, youknow, no one ever agrees with
the generations behind them. Butthey have different focus, they
do have different needs. Theywant to make a difference. I'm a
boomer, okay, I'm a boomer, Iwas taught to do my job and suck
it up and feed your family. Ifyou don't like your job, too
bad, your job. That's not theway people feel coming out of

(11:45):
school. They want to make adifference. But if you look at
how we market ourselves as anindustry, you know, the people
coming out of college, theythink we're a heavily regulated,
stodgy, paper driven industrythat manages files, when in
reality, we need to marketourselves as and I've said this
before, we need to marketourselves as an industry that
actually repairs broken andshattered lives. That's a very

(12:06):
noble effort if we do itproperly. And that's the element
that we need to train people in.
And I think that's kind of beenlost. That's why I asked that
question early on about the typeof training you went through.
And I don't know if you've seenthe same type of degradation
overall, and training as in froman industry perspective. And I'm
not talking about the programsare available. We'll talk you

(12:27):
know, I know today about severalthat are good programs, but
internal corporate training isthe focus.

Greg Hamlin (12:33):
Yeah, I would agree. I do think you call the
old there, though, Bob, becauseyou said I'm from a different
generation than the current

Bob Wilson (12:39):
one. Well, I think I did I call you old?

Greg Hamlin (12:42):
I don't know. But

Bob Wilson (12:43):
I'll tell you, there's a shocking reality. And
you're just I can tell from thedate you gave. You're in school
20 years after I was in school.
Okay. So you're still in forshocking realities, when people
who don't see much younger thanyou start calling you, sir, you
know, you're in trouble that'shappening to me?

Greg Hamlin (13:03):
Well, I have my like I said earlier, my daughter
is graduating from high schoolthis year. So I'm gonna
officially have a college, acollege aged child. So I think
I'm thinking I'm earning it. ButI think you hit on some things
there that were reallyimportant. And I think the
problem that I'm seeing now inthe industry and be interested
in Mike's take on this is, Ithink that we lost a lot of

(13:26):
people through great resignationduring COVID, a lot of people
went into retirement. And thatcaused, like you had mentioned
earlier companies stealing eachother's people, and then
allowing people to workremotely. But what that's the
new challenges that's created isa lot of people had to enter the
industry who had to immediatelystart handling claims. And they

(13:49):
may have even in entered theindustry in a remote location,
without the ability to sit in anoffice or to learn from people.
And they weren't able to travelfor a while there when they were
being on boarded. So I thinkwe've got some unique challenges
that have come out of what we'vejust come out of as a industry.
Thoughts on that, Mike?

Michael Gilmartin (14:09):
No, I completely agree. I think, Greg,
you and I started the same placeout of college. So I had a
similar experience. Trading wasfairly robust. I will say,
trading made me think that everyclaim was be held the exact same
way and be kind of easy. And youquickly realize like, that is
not the case. You're like, wait,what, what do you mean? Like,

(14:29):
this is what's supposed tohappen next. And then the
injured worker is like, no, butwe're going to do this. So
anyways, I think the biggestdifference that I've seen I
agree with you completely. Greg,I actually think last time the
three of us were talking wetalked about in office out of
office stuff. Funny enough. Bob,I agree with you. The training
when I started was very robust.
We had groups that werededicated to training. That's
all they did and that they werefocused on. They're really,

(14:51):
really good at it. And I thinknow, we're good at training
people and I think we have betthe best intentions, but we're
we're asking folks who alreadyhave a full time job to then
train people. And that gets verydifficult. And it's through no
fault of your own. Greg, on ourlast podcast, you talked about
the fact that you sit withfolks. And it's a lot of time,
right. And you also have yourwhole job that you're doing, but

(15:13):
you do it. Because you know,long term, you get good benefit
from everything else. But it'sreally hard to do. And so when
we're bringing new people in, alot of the times, it's on the
manager, or the supervisor or asenior, to really get that
person up to speed. And thatsenior, that supervisor has 1200
Other things to do. So it getsreally tough to be a full time

(15:33):
trainer and a full timesupervisor, and a full time
claims adjuster. And that'sreally hard. There's a lot of
great resources out there. But Ithink that's made it tough. And
then, from a claims perspective,working from home and not
hearing people around you isreally hard. One of the biggest
ways that I learned was on thejob listening to all the
adjusters sitting around me justhaving conversations of oh,

(15:55):
that's how you handled thatsituation, or oh, that's how you
talk to that attorney, or, Oh,those are the questions that you
asked, or I could just stand upand say, Did I sound like an
idiot? What should I ask nexttime like it, that stuff is
real. And if you don't havethat, it's really hard to get up
to speed and to learn, becausetalking about continuing
education, I'm still learningthings about work comp every

(16:16):
single day. Like things I didnot know, or things statutes I
didn't know or different states,I didn't know. And so I think
that's what I've seen, thebiggest change in is that we're
asking more of people with lessresources. These days, I think
companies like to run lean. Butthat gets really hard when it
comes to something liketraining.

Bob Wilson (16:37):
That's what I would say, well, and I think your
point is excellent, because oneof the challenges we have is we
look to recruit and replacethese people we've lost, they're
working in a remote environment,but they don't want to work in
an office, they want now theflexibility to work at Starbucks
or wherever they want to work,you know, and when they want to
work. And that's a challenge. Iagree with you, there's so much

(17:01):
to me through the pandemic, Iwas very fortunate the virtual
work well for us. I mean, itjust worked. But you still lose
if you're an I would not want tobe a 20 something coming out of
college today and not have thatoffice environment where you can
learn so much just by osmosis.
Because you're around the peopleas it happens. You know, I was
talking to someone the otherday, he said, I used to be able

(17:22):
to spot where I could stand upin my cubicle and say, Hey,
anybody ever dealt with thisparticular issue, and someone
would stand up and have it. Soyou know, there might be some
tools today, you know, I thinkthey've got Yammer and some
other internal communicationdevices, where people can use
that, but it's still notnecessarily the same. And that's
one of the challenges, I thinkwe're going to face going
forward. Because we're not goingto be able, even though it's

(17:43):
important for that young,inexperienced person to get into
an office, they may not knowthat, and they may not want to
go and you may not be able tohire them based on the fact that
you're insisting they come to anoffice and they won't do it. So
I think that's one of the bigchallenges we have as an
industry.

Greg Hamlin (17:59):
I think you're spot on. And, you know, for a lot of
organizations that may not havethe resources for a robust
training program that Mike and Iwent through, then figuring out
how do you get people to thatnext that next spot? And how do
you help develop them? I knowBob, one of the things that
you've been working on this lastyear is a program called Work

(18:20):
Comp college.com. And so Iwanted you to fill me in a
little bit on that, because I dothink that's pretty new. If I'm
right,

Bob Wilson (18:27):
yes, thanks. We just we officially launched in
November in our firstcertification program called the
workers recovery professionalcertification went fully live on
January 14, or 15th. We reallywanted to and there are good
training programs in the in theindustry available for people
but we one of the things that Ithink is not been given its full

(18:48):
service was an emphasis on thebio psychosocial elements. That
you know, as Mike said earlier,and you said earlier, claims are
not always the same. And onereason they're not the same is
because the injured worker we'redealing with can handle it in a
completely different manner thanthe previous injured worker with
the identical injury. It's thedifferences of what's going on
in their head that reallymatters. And as an industry, I

(19:11):
don't think we've been as strongas we need to be in communion in
training that communication andthat understanding the ability
to listen and to reallyunderstand the broader picture
of what's happening and thatinjured workers life and that's
what torpedoes a lot of theclaims that we see go off the
rails. So we really set up acourse that's based on the bio
psychosocial well we call itwhole person recovery

(19:32):
management. We set up nineschools of discipline we have a
school of claims School ofmedical management school of
legal School of regulatorylegislative, we have a school of
stakeholders we have a I'm goingto return to work I'm probably
going to remit forget them as Igo through because we wanted to
give a whole picture not notjust to understand what's going

(19:52):
on in that injured workers lifeand that you need to know the
technical aspects of doing yourjob, but to understand why your
job in comp is important, what'sthe big picture? That's the
second thing is we we've came torealize that a lot of people
don't really understand whathappens outside their little
sphere of influence, and how ifthey don't do their job one

(20:13):
particular way, or somebodyalong the line doesn't do their
job properly, the entire thingcan go off the rails. So we call
it work comp 360 was kind of thephrase we picked up just to get
it so that people coming outhave a better understanding of
the Comp industry in general. Sothat's really was one of our
focuses to do that. And we'vebeen very fortunate, we've got a
couple 100 students in thesystem already. We've got people

(20:35):
starting to graduate withcertifications, which is really
good. It's a it's a difficultthing. 64 courses, 50 some hours
of content in that program. ButI think we're getting a
tremendous feedback. Andhopefully, you know, we'll be
able to make a difference insome of this.

Greg Hamlin (20:50):
That's awesome. So in that program, is it all done
online? Are you meeting likevirtually? Or is it self driven,
where you're, you know, you'redoing the reading yourself. And
then and taking a test? Or howdoes the coursework setup,

Bob Wilson (21:04):
it's all done online, and it's self guided or
self driven on your own at yourown pace. Every course includes
a lecture video, and these wehave, I will say one thing
that's really neat is we've hadpeople, dozens of people step
up, they came to us, we didn'thave to seek people out, they
wanted to help build a betterindustry. And they want to leave
a better industry than theyfound. And we've got some

(21:26):
incredible and incrediblytalented people working, we've
got some trustees, we've got aboard of trustees, we've got
Dean's reach school, and a lotof really skilled faculty, they
have recorded video lectures,there are transcripts of the
lectures, there are otherresources and links available in
each individual class. And thereis a graded test for every
course. And you have to have a70% or better on each test to

(21:50):
pass the individual course test.
And there is a final exam thatyou need to maintain an average
of 80% Or better, we put incertain protections, you cannot
fast forward the videos werestrict up, I have a business
partner who discovered that whenhe tried to zip through a couple
of classes, and he wasn't ableto fast forward, he had to
actually watch the lecture, wehave, you know, in addition to
the testing, you can't fastforward through the videos. Even

(22:12):
our certification forum, whenit's issued has a QR code that
anybody can scan to verify thevalidity of the certification.
So it can't be fake. So we'vetried to put in protections to a
calendar, the fact that it's anall virtual system, we
eventually would like to havesome live events. But right now
off the ground, we it's allonline, all virtual. Awesome.

Greg Hamlin (22:35):
Yeah, I think these kinds of resources are
definitely needed in theindustry and just getting
different ways for people toexpand their depth. I've seen
some of the folks on yourwebsite that are involved in
know several of them, and theythey're fantastic. So definitely
worth checking into. Now I knowthere are lots of ways to

(22:56):
further your education in theinsurance industry. And Mike,
you took the route of theinstitute's as one of those
paths by getting your cpcu. So Ithought knowing how hard that is
to get having done several ofthe sections myself, I just
wanted you to talk a little bitabout one, what motivated you to
do that. And what what did youthink of the process?

Michael Gilmartin (23:20):
Yeah, that's a that's a great question, Greg.
So I started it, probably fouror five years into my career.
And at that time, I think Iquickly realized I wasn't going
to be insurance, six months, Iwas probably going to be here
for a lot longer. And so I wasgoing back and forth on I knew I
wanted to do more education,whether it was an MBA, or

(23:41):
something more industryspecific. And what I landed on
was, I'm learning a lot of thesame things I would getting an
MBA, but it's all tailored toinsurance, which is really what
I was looking for. So I like tocall it the DBQ the masters of
insurance, just because I haveone now, so I could say that.
But it was tough. I mean, it'sin full transparency. It's my

(24:02):
dad kind of pushed me to do it.
He was the Maryland shadowpresident the cpcu. For a long
time, he taught a lot of thecourses. So I had a really good
advocate in my corner that whenI had questions on stuff, I
could call and say what this orwhat that. But it's pretty
intense. I mean, it's eightsections or eight basically
courses with a test of the end.
Everything from insuranceoperations, to finance to

(24:26):
commercial property to a youreally run the gambit of of
insurance. And I just felt likeit would make me a more well
rounded insurance professional,regardless of what industry or
what area of the industry Iwanted to go into. The tests are
not easy. I think a lot of themhave fairly high fail rates. I
was fortunate enough that whenyou go through it, and you do

(24:46):
it, and you go to a testingcenter to do all the tests, and
there's a screen at the end thattells you whether you passed or
you failed. And like there'slike a three second delay
doesn't come up. And so you sitthere and just like the most
intense anticipation of like tocast it out past that I passed.
And I fortunately passed all thetests the first time.

Bob Wilson (25:06):
We know they build that in just to tease you, they
could just produce the resultslike that, oh, great, just want
you to suffer for a few seconds,

Michael Gilmartin (25:14):
every other screen somehow pops up right
away. But that one, it waitsjust long enough for you to be
sweating. But no, great. I thinkit just, you know, I had always
only been in work comp, I, forthe most part have only done
work comp. And it really openedmy eyes to policy structure and
the different lines of businessand kind of how insurance
companies are run and what thefinances and the balance sheets

(25:34):
look like. And it just, it gaveme a better understanding so
that when I'm in conversations,or I'm talking to different
groups of people, I have abetter understanding of what
they do when it comes to ourindustry. And back to what Bob
said before, it helps you get abroader picture of where what
you do fit in with the entiretyof, of the product that we're
offering and what we're doing.
So it's a long winded answer,but I just I knew I wanted to do

(25:57):
more education. And I decided togo in with something that was
industry specific worked for me,because I plan on completing my
entire career in insurance,

Greg Hamlin (26:07):
I think you definitely hit on some things,
you know, I've taken three ofthe courses and completed them
first time, but they're hard.
And as you mentioned before,it's very much the 5000 foot
view over all of insurance. Andso I think that's probably the
difference, if we're looktalking about like a work comp
college.com experience versusthe cpcu is, you might spend

(26:28):
five, and I might be giving toomuch credit here. But 5% focused
on workers comp, because there'sa lot of liability, there's a
lot of property, there's a lotof financial, so it is risk
management ideas. Sounderstanding how everything
connects, I think you get areally good picture through the
cpcu from the 5000 foot view ofall lines, but it is not the

(26:52):
zeroed in work comp only. Sothere's value in both I think I
actually did my claim to fame, Idid some video clips for the
associate and claims that theyhave, which is probably the
step. I would encourage folkswho haven't done anything to
start with if they're going togo down that path. And some of
those at least at least one ofthe courses, I believe transfers

(27:14):
over for your cpcu. So it's nota wasted effort if you decide to
go down that road. Bob, have youhad any interactions with the
institute's before?

Bob Wilson (27:23):
I really have not.
And I was it was interesting tolisten to Mike's description,
because he he relates to myunderstanding of what they do in
the broad, broad scope of broadspectrum. A good program very
broad across multiple lines, youknow, and a lot of ways, you
know, I talked about the rimsevent sometimes and worker's
comp is always like theredheaded stepchild and rims,
you know, it's five or 10% ofany content that rims is

(27:46):
national is sometimes dedicatedto calm. And that's kind of the
way the industry I think, Ithink we have a feeling
sometimes that we don't get thefull attention that we may want
from other ag avenues. But theinsurance industry is huge. And
it's understandable from thelines in the business in these
other in the other lines, thevolume of the other lines of

(28:06):
business. Why that may be thecase. But yeah, he gave me my my
understanding, you did not stopme and my place to ask you
questions, because you're thehost. But you know, my second
questions, but

Greg Hamlin (28:19):
this is

Bob Wilson (28:19):
like my second time here. So I'm going to ask you a
question, because I know yousaid earlier, you do teaching
for CLM as well, the CLM collegeclaims college, you want to tell
people what that is? Are you canyou add a story for that?

Greg Hamlin (28:31):
Absolutely. So CLM stands for claims litigation
management. It's a group of alot of attorneys, there is a
carrier involvement as well. Andthey do a three year
designation. And so this isactually an in person event
where you go to I think rightnow it's in Baltimore, for about

(28:52):
four days of in class work inperson. And then after year one,
you complete a test, and thenyou go back for your two. And
the next year, take the nextround. And then year three is
your final year. And then thatone, instead of taking a test,
you do a group presentationwhere they actually give you a
case study of workers comp. Andso what's kind of nice about

(29:16):
that is you are getting the inperson piece. The challenge with
that is you're going to have towork for an employer that's
going to allow for you to traveland it is at a hotel there's
it's for three or four days outof the office where you're fully
going to be engaged in differentlectures from different
professionals throughout theindustry who are teaching so I

(29:39):
think it has its own benefitsand of course its own
challenges. I believe you can doyour one online now and I don't
know if they're bringing thatback in person but during the
pandemic they they switched thatone. So that would be a good way
for people to see if that'ssomething that they like and it
is directly related to workerscomp but they also do
designations for or other lines.
So if you are listening to thisand you're a property person,

(30:04):
they've got something going onthat same week for that. The
Work Comp group, so usuallyabout 20 or so students, I would
say each year that go throughthe program, 20, or 30. And
there's several 100, when youstart looking at all the
different lines, so definitelyinteresting. We've had several
of our people go through it. AndI think you get a good flavor of

(30:24):
workers comp. Again, it has tobe somewhat generic, because
you've got people coming fromall over the country. So you
can't talk about Virginiaworkers comp.

Bob Wilson (30:37):
And that's a problem because we have to face up to
we've got, you know, this highlevel best practices, national
focus overview, one of thethings we're developing, and
we'll be launching this summerare 50 different states specific
modules being produced withstate partners that will cover
legal claims, ethics, thespecifics of doing business in a
given state, you need that, Imean, you you do come out of

(30:57):
this training. And you stillneed to know, what's the filing
requirement? What's the waitingperiod? What's, you know, what,
what's the fine if I don't getthis form checked off in the
proper amount of time? You know,all those nuances? It's
difficult, because comp, youknow, as we'd like to say, is
exactly the same. Yep. Totallydifferent in every state. Yeah,
that's right.

Greg Hamlin (31:17):
That's right. And you could be thinking you're
doing it right. And if you don'tknow the jurisdiction you're in,
you could be doing it completelywrong and find yourself in some
trouble. So

Bob Wilson (31:25):
is CLM CCP designation? Is that the one
dedicated to comp? Is that the

Greg Hamlin (31:29):
Yes, yes, yes. And we've had a few of our like, so
we've had a few of our folks gothrough it. And I think you
know, that third year, when youdo your presentation, they get
them a pretty difficult worker'scompensation claim, and then
have them present as a group,what they would do, in
retrospect, because it's kind ofat the endpoints and kind of see

(31:50):
where maybe some of thechallenges how did it get to
that spot? And what were thingsthat could be done to either get
it back on the rails or couldhave been done earlier to, to
keep it from going down thatpath? Yeah, I

Bob Wilson (32:01):
know, somebody who went through that, and, and was
very complimentary of thatparticular portion of the
program. Thought it was veryuseful to have that team effort
and collaboration. Yeah. Whichis, which is pretty valuable. I
think you can learn a lot justin that process.

Greg Hamlin (32:15):
Absolutely.
Absolutely.

Michael Gilmartin (32:17):
I was gonna say, I think, you know, one of
the one of the themes is that itsounds like we're all folks that
want to learn, right? Like, Ijust want to know more. And if I
don't know the answer tosomething, it's instead of
asking someone, I want to gofigure out why or, but I think I
had this conversation yesterday,funny enough, when I was sitting
with a group of agents havinglunch. And I was talking to a
woman who was a teacher forlike, 13 years. And for one

(32:40):
reason or another, he needed toget into a different industry.
And so she, she kind of cameinto insurance, not knowing
anything, and she came in withone role. And then a couple of
folks moved on fairly quickly.
And so they had different thingsthey were doing. And she said,
Well, I'll learn that, I want tolearn that I'll learn that I can
do that. Let me let me see if Ican figure that out. And what
quickly dawned on me iscontinuing education isn't just

(33:01):
signing up for a course or orgoing to a conference, it's as
simple as saying, Okay, I wantto know where my data comes
from. So let me get more versedin how we do our data, or I want
to learn what underwriting isdoing. So let me go sit with
somebody for a little bit andreally understand what they do.
And I think what people need tounderstand coming out of college
is it's great to have your joband do your job and be really

(33:23):
good at your job. But if that'sall you're interested in doing,
not going to take you thefarthest, right? So the people
that are curious, the peoplethat say, Hey, I want to learn
this, or hey, I want to do thisproject, or hey, I want to push
myself outside of my comfortzone and do this. It lets people
become invaluable to anorganization. And so I think
that that's overlooked, we'recontinuing education, all of
these resources are awesome, andthere's something that should be

(33:46):
utilized. But it can be assimple as saying, I just want to
learn how to do this at yourcurrent job. And that's
something that I think I don'tknow if you guys agree, but that
gets overlooked is I do my job.
And my job is my job. And that'sit. But the people that I find
most successful are those thatget outside their comfort zone
and say, hey, I want to do thisproject, or I want to learn

(34:06):
this, or I want to go do that. Imean, look at me, I switched
from claims and sales anddistribution two years ago, and
completely changed thetrajectory of my career. Because
I wanted to try somethingdifferent and wanted to
understand the totality of ourindustry and what we do from a
different perspective. So I youknow, that's just not a snap
question. Just kind of athoughts on that from you guys.

(34:26):
I don't know.

Bob Wilson (34:27):
I think you're absolutely right. I think
there's a difference in there'sthe type of employee that wants
to, you know, there's a type ofemployee who's counting the days
to retirement, okay. And thenthere's the type of employee who
continually wants to find abetter way to do something,
expand their horizons, maybewant to step into another,
another area for differentchallenges. They like the

(34:49):
challenges, and those are thepeople that are generally
looking for the education toimprove themselves and to take
on those those challenges. Thoseare the more successful people.
I mean, I think in our mindthere are stereotypes of the
jaded professional that justbeen sitting in a desk for 20
years, and just can't wait untilthe day they're done. And then
there are those who just can'twait for the next step and the

(35:09):
next challenge and somethingthey haven't dealt with before.
And you said something thatreally struck me because in my
previous life, previous company,we dealt with a lot of very,
very large insurance carriers,and wonderful people, really
great people in this industry. Ilove this industry. But Dilbert
is alive and well, in corporateAmerica. When you start
negotiating with some of thesecompanies, you realize how

(35:32):
little how heavily siloed somecompanies are. So you mentioned
something about underwriting,there are people in claims who
have absolutely no clue whatgoes on and underwriting and
business development and viceversa. And I've actually
listened to calls where peoplehave to negotiate amongst
departments in their own companyto get something done, you know,

(35:52):
when they're trying to bring inan external service. And people
who who routinely work reach outto understand what's going on in
those other areas, and what'shappening in the bigger picture,
have much more flexibility andmuch more ability to advance.
And I think that's important,but I don't even think they do
it because they want to advance,they want to do it, because it's
just a chance to do somethingdifferent and a different

(36:14):
challenge. I really do thinkthat that matters to a lot of
people.

Michael Gilmartin (36:17):
Yeah, and I think you hit on something there
that read the goal of a companyis to hire very talented people
that are well rounded. And ifyou are only in one area, and
that's all you know, and that'sall you learn, it's very hard to
become well rounded. And I knowkey risk. And same for Berkeley
industrial, like we want peopleto learn what everybody else
does. And we want people tocollaborate and talk and
everything else. And all thatdoes is benefit the employer, it

(36:40):
makes your employees more wellrounded, it makes them more
talented. I've always said Iwant to hire the most talented
people, I can teach you thetechnical. But if you have to
want to learn and want to absorbinformation, and then want to be
curious and and learn more abouthow what you do impacts the
bigger picture, those by far themost successful people, I can
teach you the rates in Virginiaand the statutory rules in

(37:04):
Maryland like that stuff thatcan be taught. But people that
want to learn, and I agree withyou, Bob, those people are
generally also the people thatare going to reach out to you
and come to work on couches andpeople that are going to get
their cpcu they're the peoplethat are going to CLM. And I
think it's no secret that thosefolks generally are the ones
that just want to know more andbe more well rounded.

Greg Hamlin (37:25):
I agree. And I think you know, every every
company allocates differentresources to training. So one of
the things I thought maybe justto talk a step further is, you
know, it may be that somebody'slistening to this podcast, and
where they're working,unfortunately, doesn't invest in
training, but they want to knowmore. And so what does that
person do? And, you know, asthinking about some of the ways

(37:47):
in my own career, where I'velearned, you know, some, some
companies may even be, you know,state funds or situations where
the budgets are very limited,and trying to go to a conference
would need to be approved twoyears in advance or three years
in advance, because of how tightthings are run. So in those
scenarios, what are some otherways that people can learn?

(38:09):
Either or, Michael, I'll throwthat to either of you?

Bob Wilson (38:12):
Well, I think there's a, an explosion in our
industry of podcasts andwebinars such as this, where
people can go and learn aboutspecific topics, some are
extremely technical, you know,and in nature, those are those
are great resources. They don'trequire travel, you know, there
are good, you said they, theyhave trouble getting to
conferences. I think, you know,it's interesting, after the

(38:35):
pandemic, some conferencesattempted a hybrid of in person,
and you know, you could doattend remotely, and discovered
immediately that all companysaid, oh, there's a remote
option. You're not traveling,you know. And so you'll notice
now, those conferences aren'tremote anymore. They're not
offering a hybrid. Right, right.
But there are some greatconferences, some great
educational events, I think, forpeople looking for information.
Those are some of the areas. Imean, WC Ri was just WC Ri and

(38:59):
Phoenix, which is a reallyinteresting, if you're a data
head especially they reallyinteresting stuff that they come
out that they report on everyyear. WCI in Orlando is a big
conference with lots and lots ofeducational information. And
it's not an expensiveconference. I mean, they haven't
Orlando in August, and no onewants to be in Orlando in

(39:19):
August. So it's a little cheaperfrom Hotel perspectives. And the
conference itself is a few 100bucks. It's not a lot of money.
So those are some of the I thinksome of the resources people can
look at. Yeah, I was I was atactually WCI this last year as a
speaker and at that conference,they even had a live work comp
hearing of Florida work comphearing that you could go to and

(39:41):
sit in you had to go throughlike security and everything but
you could go and see what ahearing looks like. They do a
lot of hearing. They do not livesurgery. They do live surgery
every year they do a livesurgery, I guess you know, your
number gets drawn when you checkin at the register.

Michael Gilmartin (39:57):
gets that?
Yeah, right. But I mean what hada great opportunity to learn.
I'm not I'm not doing it, mycouple, my coworkers actually
went to the live surgery. Andthey were psyched that as far as
for me, um,

Bob Wilson (40:09):
I, I am the type of guy that just doesn't want to
think about the concept of bloodflowing through my veins, I just
don't,

Michael Gilmartin (40:15):
I don't have the same you and I are the same
person, Bob, I'm gonna say,

Bob Wilson (40:20):
I've been doing WCI.
For years, I've never gone tothe live surgery, and I don't
think I ever will.

Greg Hamlin (40:25):
Well, and you mentioned WC ri, and they do
some fantastic. I mean, if youwant research, heavy research
within very specific states,they're fantastic. You know, I
have read quite a few of theirarticles. And they actually
provide some of the best statespecific guides that you can get
each year if you if you justneed you know the basics. So

(40:47):
now, we want to go deep

Michael Gilmartin (40:49):
on Greg, I'm gonna I'm gonna quote, I'm gonna
quote your boss who used to be akey risk. Google is your friend.
I don't know how many times I'veheard like marketing. But it's
100%. True. And so look, I'll goback to what I said earlier. And
I think you guys make greatpoints. But it costs you nothing
to ask a question. It cost younothing to network and get to

(41:09):
know good people, right now Iknow Bob, I can go to Bob and
say, Hey, man, talk to me moreabout what you do. And what's
what how you got where you are.
And it's the same thing withgoing to an underwriter or going
to the president of key risks.
Right. One of the things I loveabout brewing companies is
they're very flat organization,I could walk into Scott
Holbrooks office tomorrow andsay, Hey, man, talk to me about
how you got where you are, or,Hey, I want to know more

(41:30):
specifically about our CFO callsand how we work with Berkeley as
a whole. And it just, it costsyou nothing to ask questions and
be inquisitive, and reach out tofolks and really network within
your own company or just in theindustry in general. That that's
something that gets overlooked.
Like, it's great to go to aconference. But one of the
biggest things I get out of theconference is the networking,
and getting to know folks thatdo things differently than I do,

(41:51):
and aligning myself with thosepeople to figure out what they
do like that. That's a, that isa big thing to me. And that
costs me nothing.

Bob Wilson (42:01):
I will tell you and I agree with that completely.
But along those lines and tyinginto conferences, we work real
heavily with the SouthernAssociation of Workers
Compensation administrators,Sokka 20 states belong to
soccer. That is an outstandinggroup for casual conversations
about how to address issues andchallenges in comp and how
people process things there. Andyou get and you're talking to

(42:24):
regulators from the variousstates are very open, they're
very approachable. I've alwaysenjoyed those meetings, and a
lot of our I've, I've gottengreat ideas. In fact, when we're
building work comp college, theywere very supportive of what we
were doing and got, we got greatfeedback from state regulators
on what needed to be done. Soit's helpful talking to people

(42:45):
is and you're right, you coulddo it in the lunchroom, you
could you know, when you go to aconference, it's important to go
to the sessions, but you shouldalso go to the networking events
and talk to people. Absolutely.
Absolutely.

Greg Hamlin (42:56):
Well, the last thing I wanted to hit on as we
kind of wrap up this topic is,is just how I felt like learning
if you want to improve yourself,a lot of that has to be self
driven. Of course, you know,company can offer your
resources. And of course, youknow, you can wait for things to
happen. But one of the thingsI've learned throughout my
career is just that when Irecognize an area that I could

(43:18):
do better, and like Mike said,go look for the answers to that
and take a self driven approach.
We're going to have a episodecoming up in the next month or
two that's on listening. And youknow, I had a 360 review 10
years ago. And in that 360review, I got some feedback that
I could improve on listening.

(43:39):
And I thought, Well, boy, Ithought I was pretty good at
this. And I asked my wife, shewas like, Yeah, you're, you're
great. But then I when I startedrealizing that other people,
some of the people that I wasworking with, because I was so
busy, and I was moving so fast,I sometimes didn't take the time
to pause and listen and reallyhear them. You know, I went I
got a book on listening, hatedit, threw it away, got another

(44:00):
book on listening, loved it, andstarted doing some exercises. So
you know, you might go down thatpath and what you're pursuing
doesn't work for you. But thenfurther down the road, you find
that answer if you keep looking.
And so we're gonna hear from theauthor of that book, in the next
month or two. And that should bea fun discussion as well. But
any other favorite books oravenues that that you guys have
taken to learn? Well, from a

Bob Wilson (44:23):
book perspective, there's a couple that popped to
mind that I really enjoyed.
There's a book it's been out nowa number of years from good to
great, which is a review ofcertain case studies,
businesses, business studies ofcompanies, what they've done to
make the difference between justa standard good procedure to
becoming a great organizationand I thought there were some
interesting thoughts in thatbook. There's another book that
I haven't seen out in print inyears. I read it back in the 80s

(44:44):
called Dinosaur brains couldn'teven tell you who wrote it, but
it talked about the instinctualreaction in some people fight
fight or flight and how they howcertain people act as dinosaur
brains to build little fiefdomsand empires in the corporate
structure, and try and maintaincontrol through irrational

(45:06):
methods. Unfortunately, they saythe dinosaur brains at that time
were could most often be foundin accounting and human
resources. My apologies, anybodywho's listening who's in
accounting or human resources,but it talks about the
instinctual reactions that somepeople have and how to deal with
it, they build little wallsaround them. They don't have
direct control over a lot ofthings, but they, they try and

(45:27):
control as much as they can. AndI found it to be a really
insightful book and and it's tothis day, I will sometimes come
across some people, and I'll beable to flag them when I think
of dinosaur brains from theirreaction or the way they behave.
It was it was a really a greatbook, if you can find an old
copy. I don't even know if it'sstill in print.

Greg Hamlin (45:46):
All right, you're gonna make me look, that's
definitely interesting. Mike,how about you?

Michael Gilmartin (45:51):
Yeah, one book that comes to mind. And
Greg, I don't know if you guysread it at Ben, we honestly as a
leadership group read it a keyrisk was Extreme Ownership. By
jakka, willing can it's a human,another guy that are Navy SEALs,
or were Navy SEALs are still ourNavy SEALs. And it's all about
as leaders kind of owningeverything in your world, right?
So you you own the decisionsthat are made both at your level

(46:14):
and your folks level, but justowning the results and owning
kind of the direction thatyou're taking your team. And
it's what it's good for anylevel, right? It's not just
about leadership, from amanaging people perspective,
it's just a different way tolook at your desk in your life.
And, you know, you own yourresults, and you own the work
that's being put out. And ittaught me one of my worst, one

(46:37):
of the phrases I do dislike themost is why didn't have the file
then or Well, I didn't I wasn'tinvolved in so I can't blah,
blah, blah, we all own theresults, right? We're all one
company, we're all one place.
And we should all have ownershipof and pride of the work that we
do and what we're doing. So thatthat was a pretty influential
book. And then honestly, I'mjust involved in a lot of online
newsletters and updates indifferent industries and niches.

(47:00):
So like PEOs, or staffing, theyhave organizations that what
they do is they send out dailyupdates on legislation on
different things they're goingin the industry, how capital,
and the rates and interest rateincreases are affecting the
different companies and what'sgoing on there. And I'm heavily
involved in those. So if you'reinvolved in niches, or you have
a lot of a certain type ofbusiness, on your desk, go learn

(47:23):
about that industry. And there'sI will guarantee you that there
are plenty of newsletters andorganizations that are that's
all they do is that industry.
And it's a really good way tokind of just stay current on
what's going on in theenvironment and what's going on,
that can affect what you'redoing. So those are two avenues
that I you know, that helped me.

Greg Hamlin (47:46):
I think those are great. I've read Extreme
Ownership very, very good book,and good reminder. Very intense.

Michael Gilmartin (47:52):
He also podcasts, and it looks like
it's, it's a little like overthe top intense, but some of the
points he makes are fantastic.

Greg Hamlin (48:01):
Well, in his in his industry, two lives are at stake
actual lives. So when mistakesare made, there are people who,
whose lives depend on it. So itwas very good. So definitely
good recommendations. Well, Iwanted to wrap things up this
year, the thing that we're doingthis season is asking each of
our guests to share somethingthey're grateful for. I felt

(48:22):
like one of the things that I'vebeen on a mission for the next
or for the last several yearsjust to put good vibes in the
universe universities. So Iwanted to throw this one to Bob
and set and ask you somethingthat you're grateful for.

Bob Wilson (48:35):
Well, obviously, I'm grateful for the opportunity to
be on your blog, or yourpodcast. That's that's what I'm
grateful for. Right now. I I amactually grateful that for the
last 20 some years, myexperience in this industry,
that I've had the opportunity tomeet some tremendous people and
just thoroughly enjoy everythingthat I've been able to do when

(48:57):
you look forward to going to theoffice in the morning or to get
up and going to work everysingle day, with very rare
exception that that's a realblessing. And I've been really
blessed with that. And eventhough my job has changed in the
last year, I've had thatopportunity to really expand our
horizon and try something newand create again, and I'm just
really, really grateful for thatopportunity.

Greg Hamlin (49:19):
I really love that Bob, I know, you know, it's
really about people in the end.
The industry is what we do inour jobs. And I think that's one
of the things as I reflect onthe time that I've spent in
workers comp that I'm gratefulfor as well. So thanks for
sharing that. Thanks again, Mikefor joining me on this episode.
We remind all of our listenersto do right, think differently.

(49:41):
Don't forget to care and hopethat you join us in two weeks
for our next episode. Thankseverybody.