April 3, 2023 • 43 mins
In this episode, ADJUSTED welcomes Dustin King, Vice President of underwriting at Berkley Industrial Comp. Dustin discuss what an Experience Modification Rating is and why it is important to an insured and insurance company.
Season 5 is brought to you by Berkley Industrial Comp. This episode is hosted by Greg Hamlin and guest co-host Mike Gilmartin, Area Vice President, Sales & Distribution, for Key Risk.
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Visit the Berkley Industrial Comp blog for more!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Greg Hamlin (00:12):
Hello everybody and welcome to adjusted. I'm your
host Greg Hamlin coming at youfrom beautiful Birmingham,
Alabama and Berkley IndustrialComp and with me as my co host
for the day, Mike Gilmartin.
Mike, if you want to say helloto everyone.
Mike Gilmartin (00:27):
Yeah. Hey, everybody, happy to be back on
the podcast. I'm coming to youfrom Greensboro where it is
seasonably warm. And Greg, wehave way too much pollen
already. It is gettingridiculous.
Greg Hamlin (00:38):
That is one thing I've had to adjust to being in
the south is every day I get outto my car and there's like a
thin sheet of yellow. I don'tknow if that's the pine trees or
something. Because I didn't havethat in Indiana. That's a new
thing. We have our special guesttoday Dustin King, who's the
vice president of underwritinghere at Berkeley industrial
(01:00):
comp. And we're excited to havehim. Dustin if you want to say
hello to everybody.
Dustin King (01:05):
Hey, guys. Yeah, nice to meet everyone. Yeah,
I've been at Berkeley industrialcomp since last May. So coming
up on a year pretty soon here.
And then in insurance for almost18 years, it's kind of been a
whirlwind, crazy to think abouthow quickly it all goes.
Greg Hamlin (01:21):
Well, we're glad to have you here. This is actually
a fun podcast in that I havesomebody on the underwriting
side, somebody on the businessdevelopment side, and then
myself on the claim side, andall three of us started up in
claims. So we decided with thisgroup today, we are going to
tackle experience mods and thisis going to be something I think
on the claim side, we get a lotof questions from our agents,
(01:43):
from our insureds of what doesthis do to my e mod or my
experience mod. And so I thoughttoday would be a good day to
tackle that question on theclaim side, we don't always get
our arms around, and maybe shedsome light on that. But before
we do that, Dustin, I want totalk to you a little bit about
how you ended up in theindustry. I know you if I'm
(02:05):
remembering right, you grew upin Mississippi, and I'm assuming
as you were growing up, you knewthis was your calling in life
that you were going to go intoinsurance.
Dustin King (02:16):
Oh, yeah, I knew since I was seven years old. No.
Yeah, like like everyone else. Ikind of fell into insurance.
Born and raised in Brandon,Mississippi, it's a small suburb
right outside of Jackson, rightafter high school, went to the
University of SouthernMississippi in Hattiesburg,
about two hours away fromBrandon, and was in the army and
(02:36):
then ROTC as well throughoutcollege. So I was really geared
toward wanting to go into theart continuing my military
career. I got commissioned as anArmy officer in 2005. And I was
going to do foreign armyofficer, however, that didn't
really pan out, I ended up goinglogistics instead so and went
(02:59):
National Guard and not activeduty. So I kind of had to pivot
my career afterwards. Andthrough that process, and oh
six, I applied for several jobs,and some of them that at various
other companies, and one of themwas insurance. And that kind of
piqued my interest. I wasn'treal sure. Anything about
insurance at all. In fact, whenI interviewed I thought I was
(03:21):
interviewing for a property andcasualty bite claims job, and
not workers compensation. Soyeah, I had a lot to learn about
the industry getting into it.
Looking back, I'm thrilled thatI made the decision. I'm very
fortunate that I fell into it,but it definitely was not
planned. Once I got into it. Ireally enjoy doing it, though,
and have enjoyed my career overthe past nearly 18 years.
Greg Hamlin (03:47):
I gotta say, Dustin, thank you for your
service. I've worked with manyveterans and people who've been
involved in the National Guard.
And I'm always impressed withthe amount of discipline and
focus folks have in coming fromthat side. I just out of
curiosity, how do you feel likeyour experience in serving in
the army has shaped who you areas an employee? We don't know
(04:10):
normally gets asked thatquestion. So I felt like we
should.
Dustin King (04:14):
Now that's a great one. Throw me a curveball on
that. You know, the Army is oneof the greatest organizations to
teach leadership. And from ayoung age, I was in JROTC in
high school and played sports aswell. And I learned leadership
from that aspect, but then incollege and being in the Army in
college, and then rightafterwards, it really helped
shape my leadership potentialand just taught me a lot about
(04:37):
people and really, thecamaraderie of things and
getting people to move in adirection even though sometimes
there's challenges and really,there is no better educators in
the army and in terms ofleadership school, and that's
really what it taught me butalso core values about hard
work, which was instilled in meas a young age through my dad,
(04:58):
but also the reason I'm with mysergeants in the in the army, as
well as some of my other leadersin the army also. So just, you
know, a lot of good things cameout of it, I definitely wouldn't
ever change the trajectory thatI've been on. It's been very
blessed.
Mike Gilmartin (05:14):
Yeah, I want to piggyback on what Greg said,
Thank you for your service, veryappreciated. My brother was also
in the army, so and my olderbrother was in the Navy for 25
years. So Oh, definitely hitshome. And I'm always, like Greg
said, impressed with with thediscipline and the careers that
folks have after their militarycareer. Before we talked about
emails, I think it'd be good tomaybe go back to basics and talk
(05:36):
a little bit about maybe yourrole in underwriting but just
kind of an overview of yourthought of, in a nutshell, what
what is underwriting? What isthe underwriters are trying to
do when they're looking at aninsurer when they're looking at
a new account? What does thatlook like?
Dustin King (05:50):
Yeah, sure. So I'll start out just with the basics
of what is underwriting,essentially pricing a business
to cover its losses, and we wantto give a fair price to the
insured as well as enough tocover what the loss is going to
be. And, you know, it can be thesame when you're looking at
property and liability. But forwork comp, you know, we want to
(06:12):
analyze what types of losses aregoing on, the first thing we
start to do is analyze data. Sowhen, when an account comes in
from our partner agents, whichwe utilize the independent agent
method, so we pay a commissionthe agents, they send us the
business, the account rolls,then we start that process, the
first thing we look at, we lookat their five year loss history,
(06:35):
we want to determine what typesof losses they're having. Look
at the trending, try to look atseverity as well. And then we
look at their experience modalso to see what that score is,
and what's kind of driving thatas well. And experience mods and
we'll talk about that in aminute. We really want to look
at payroll to see if there's anybeen any audit issues in the
(06:56):
past, we want to look at classcodes to make sure that the
Accord app that the agent sendsin is accurate based on what the
e mod shows from whatever ratingbureau that they're within,
within their state. And thenfrom there, we start doing our
pricing model. So it's a reallyunique thing that our
underwriters go through not onlythe data analysis, but also the
(07:19):
people aspect to try to connectwith our agents and insurance
also. So that's kind of the neatthing about underwriting.
Greg Hamlin (07:27):
I remember Dustin, I was at a career fair for a
previous employer, we weretrying to recruit new people.
And of course, I'm talking aboutclaims and how awesome it is.
And, and one of these collegestudents is like, well, I am an
English major, and I lovewriting. So I'm very interested
in the underwriting position.
And I it was well as both arelike well, that's not exactly
what this is. This is actuallymuch more on the finance side,
(07:50):
and evaluation of risk. So I'mglad that you took the time to
explain that in case there's anyconfusion out there of what it
is an underwriter does, buthaven't been on both sides,
Dustin claims and underwriting.
What do you like about each
Dustin King (08:08):
side for me coming out from the claim side. And
initially in my career, I was awork comp adjuster for nearly
six years that really got my dayset in terms of being able to
analyze claims and look attrending and try to determine
what might happen with with anaccount, what types of losses
they're having. So I think someof the best underwriters Not to
(08:31):
brag about it come from theclaim side, honestly, I've
worked with several folks thatcame up from the claim side and
underwriting and they can justreally understand that process.
And it helps them analyze thatbetter. But from the claim side,
I love the analysis part of it.
And being able to analyze whattypes of reserves we need to put
up what the cost is going to be.
(08:52):
And then some of the negotiationaspect from the settlement piece
as well. Those were some of themost enjoyable parts of the
claim side. From theunderwriting side, I would say
probably the people aspect interms of partnering with our
agents to try to come up with asolution and try to help our
agents either win an account orlook for better outcomes. So
(09:12):
that's really the power from theunderwriting side. And I like
the best also with my internalteams just working with them. We
have some of the best people inthe industry here. And it's
great to be able to connect notonly internally with Barclay
industrial, but other operatingunits around the Barclay company
as well, such as key risk andthe net preferred some other
(09:33):
ones we really try to partnerwith and help out. We're always
collaborating a lot. So that'skind of the unique thing about
Berkeley in itself.
Mike Gilmartin (09:43):
Yeah, I think everybody good comes from claims
so I think you can just broadblanket and poisonous prices is
probably the best at what theydo. But you know, going back to
email so you hear about it allthe time from insurance from
agents. I don't want my email togo up. You know how Are these
reserves gonna affect my Emad?
How is this set up claim processis going to gonna affect
(10:04):
everything in a nutshell whatwhat is an e mod for everybody
out there.
Dustin King (10:10):
So an EMA is essentially a multiplier, and
it's used to factor to adjustthe cost of premium, you've
probably heard that terminology,a one is considered a unity mod,
if it's less than one, then theaccount can get a credit if it's
greater than a one, and it's adebit on it. So if an account
has a debit mod, for instance, a1.25, they're paying 25% More
(10:33):
than they would, for an accountthat has a one point o mod, the
opposite way, if it's a pointseven, five mod, they're getting
a credit on it. So they'repaying 25% less than someone at
a one one mod. And the reasonthese were constructed from our
writing bureaus is essentiallywhat they say is that it really
measures for some instance, theoverall safety program and loss
(10:59):
prevention program have anaccount. Because the theory is,
the better the program, thebetter the mod should be. And
that's kind of the theory behindit. But yeah, it's a multiplier
that adjusts their premium.
Mike Gilmartin (11:13):
Thank you hit on something there. That's really
important. I think thefoundation of an experience mod
and something that I think everyonce awhile gets overlooked is a
lot of it's in the hands of theinsurer, right. So, I mean, you
need to have a good program. Andwe'll get into kind of claims
and how that all factors in. Butit really starts with the
insured having a solid programand a solid understanding of
(11:34):
what safety looks like whatreturn to work looks like, and
how picking the right insurancecarrier can make a difference in
their EMR going down or goingup, if they decide to go a
direction they shouldn't go. AndI think that gets missed a lot.
And you're speaking from theclaim side, I understand how it
works from that, but but talkingto agents on a daily basis, in
(11:57):
my role where hey, you know, wehave these three really cheap
prices from these threecarriers. And that's great. And
you might have a cheaper pricenow. But if your EMR goes up
year, over year, over a year,that price is going to start
climbing. And in the long run,you're probably going to be out
more money than you would havehad you pick the right, the
right program. If that makessense. I just I get very
(12:18):
passionate about this. So I wantto make sure everyone
understands, like EMRs areimportant. And they affect long
term costs for an insured. And Ithink that gets lost a lot of
wives want the cheapest price orI want you know, it's all bottom
line for me right now. Andthat's great. But that's not the
long term view that you needwhen looking at earbuds.
Greg Hamlin (12:37):
That's a really important point, Mike. And, you
know, we do see that a lotwhere, you know, one of our I
can think of one of our accountsthat ended up going with a
cheaper price. They they calledus a few months later. And they
were asking us, hey, you know,we need to get this these claims
reassigned, because nobody'sanswered on the phone. And, and
they've moved this around fourtimes different people and the
(12:59):
person who's handling doesn'thave people skills, and then we
looked at it, and we're like,Well, this is your new carrier,
we can actually make anychanges. You know, that's what
came with the cheaper price. Sothere is a lot there when it
comes to service andpartnerships that really can
impact that. e mod. Dustin, Iwanted you maybe if you could
(13:21):
talk a little bit about I knowwe don't want to get too deep
into this, but just what classcodes are and how those factor
in because there's so manydifferent types of jobs out
there. And getting that right.
Pretty important.
Dustin King (13:34):
Yeah, so the classification system came came
around in the early 1900s.
Essentially, what what happenedwas there was similarly related
risks that will just say, forinstance, the candlestick maker
and a shoemaker were being inclass the same. And they were
having to pay the same premium.
Well, when NCCI and otherwriting bureaus came in, they
(13:54):
decided, well, that's notnecessarily fair, because
there's different exposures,different classes of business.
So the classification systemcame around to put a unique
identifier on each class ofbusiness, so that they're
charged a different rate perclass, for instance, and
construction, 5403 generalconstruction, it has a different
(14:16):
rate and 5645. So when NCCIlooks at all these classes, they
look at it on a per state basis.
And then they do a ratinganalysis every year to where
they will look and see whattheir actual unexpected losses
are in develop out rates basedon that. So each year the rates
can change, depending on whattheir past loss history and
(14:38):
payroll was, for the past periodthat NCCI is analyzing on that.
But classes divide up differenttypes of risk based on what
their governing class code is ortype of industry that they work
with.
Greg Hamlin (14:54):
I think that makes a lot of sense. You know, I'm an
office worker. So obviouslythat's a very different work,
different type of risk thanworking in construction. And so
when we start talking about IImods just need to keep that in
mind that the class codesmatter, too, because the type of
job you're doing could be moreor less risky, depending on what
(15:14):
it is you're up to. Yeah, that's
Dustin King (15:16):
a really important piece for not only insurance,
but obviously agents tounderstand as well. I know a lot
of agents that will go back andlook through the experience mod
to make sure that things areclass properly, and they're not
being coded differently to wheremaybe they're paying a higher
rate based on a class code thatthey shouldn't be classed as.
Mike Gilmartin (15:35):
Yeah, that's a really good point. I think it I
think when it comes toexperience mods, it's just all
groups understanding how theyplay into it, and how they can
affect the outcome of it just bydoing what you're talking about.
So making sure things are classproperly, making sure claims are
handled properly, making sureyou have solid return to work
programs and what have you. Butone of the biggest things I
think on the claim side you hearis reserving reserving,
(15:57):
reserving, hey, you know, canyou lower these reserves?
They're they're ima, you know,blah, blah, blah. Can you kind
of explain a little bit howreserving plays into an e mod? I
mean, obviously, it looks atlast history. But can you have
to run through that a little bitfor running?
Dustin King (16:14):
Yeah, for us. From the underwriting side. Whenever
we have an account that comes upfor renewal or a piece of new
business that comes inobviously, renewals are easier
because we can call our claimsdepartment and or resolution
department and chat with themand talk about each account and
determine why why things werereserved a certain way that
reserving gives the underwriteran accurate picture. And what
(16:39):
claims is for saying the cost tobe for that type of claim, so
that we know from anunderwriting perspective, how
much premium we need to coverfor those types of losses. So
it's probably the most importantthing to ensure that claims are
adequately and accuratelyreserved, so that pricing is on
(16:59):
point. So there's no majorswings and pricing for an
insured, it's really the bestthing for uninsured to not have
these huge ups and downs interms of premiums and pay a
consistent price over time. Ifyou were to look at an account
that stays with a carrier formultiple years, they're likely
paying less than shopping and goand having these major swings,
(17:22):
because they'll have so many upsand downs that the variance is
just major instead of stayingconsistently with one with one
carrier that keeps thatconsistent rate keeps a
consistent premium over time.
Greg Hamlin (17:34):
Great, great, great points. Dustin, you know, I
know, one of the things that canbe confusing, and I don't know
if I'm sure all of us have seenit, even both of you and your
claims life is sometimes we haveinsurance that maybe don't want
to report claims, becausethey're thinking I think I could
probably just take care of thismyself and save a little money.
(17:56):
You know, when I was at I alwaysuse the example when I was
Mike Gilmartin (17:59):
really well Greg really? All right.
Greg Hamlin (18:04):
So when I was in high school, I had a wood
paneled minivan. That was myfirst car. Nice. And I got a
little wreck, I was leaving acarport and I hit the pillar
lease. That's my story stilltoday. And it took out the door.
And my mom was like, There's noway we're turning that into the
insurance. You're a boy driver,you're gonna go the junkyard and
(18:25):
get a new door. So I did so thenI had a door that did not have
wood paneling, that was adifferent color than the rest of
my minivan. That I guess wascharacter building, because we
were trying to save some moneyon the insurance premium. Right.
So I think sometimes though,people think about their work
comp program, the same way thatI thought about my parents
thought about my car. And Ithink there's some some
(18:49):
fallacies in that, as we talkabout men only claim. So Justin,
I wanted you to talk a littlebit about how medical only
claims are treated differentlythan a last time claim. And then
maybe, you know, between Mikeand I, we can talk about some of
the challenges and thinking youcan do it better if you just pay
for it out of pocket.
Dustin King (19:06):
Okay, yeah, just coming from the experience
writing side on that. There. Therating bureaus actually
incentivize companies to reportclaims for medical onlys.
Because they're actuallydiscounted by 70%. So the
insured is actually only gettingattributed 30% of that to the
(19:27):
actual primary and excessportions of the client of the
EMA to Yeah, it's reallyincentive to report is going to
be discounted. So from thatside, you know, there's really
no reason not to report that.
Greg Hamlin (19:42):
Mike, have you seen things go sideways when people
thought they could do it ontheir own when you're on the
claim side?
Mike Gilmartin (19:47):
Never Greg, it's always a good idea, as I've said
before, no, I think it's, youknow, it's, again, it's a short
term view and instead of a longterm view, and I think, you
know, it's done with goodintentions, right. So it's I
don't think it's ever done withoh, I don't want to do this or I
don't want to do that. I thinkit's really the idea of oh man,
like you said, My insurancepremiums go up, my email might
go up, you know, I can pay forthese three office visits, or I
(20:10):
can pay for these two PT visits.
And I think what insurancequickly realize is they do 700
other things. And so their mainjob isn't to make sure that that
person is getting the care theyneed, getting the referrals
authorized. And all it takes isone or two non return phone
calls or a visit not to be setup timely or questions from from
that injured worker. And they'reseeking the counsel of an
(20:34):
attorney, or they're, you know,no one's answering my questions.
And I feel like I shouldn't beworking. So I'm going to figure
this out on my own, whichgenerally, is not a good thing.
commercials for attorneys on TV.
And so a lot of times, by thetime we get the claim, it either
comes in through an attorney, oroh, shoot, now they need
surgery, and we're not preparedfor this at all. And we don't
(20:57):
really know what kind of carethey had and you lose a lot of
the control, you would have hadto help give that person the
care, they truly need to getthem back to work and kind of
back in their daily life as bestas possible. And that directly
affects an EMR because thatclaim that could have been
$5,000, or $2,000, or 500 bucks,is now a $25,000 claim with an
(21:19):
attorney with time out of work.
And it's a little bit of anexaggeration, but you see it all
the time, it's why earlyreporting of claims is so
important. Because then as ateam, you can figure out the
best way to get this person backto their whole life and back to
what they were doing assuccessfully as possible. And
you really miss that boat whenthe right parties are involved.
That's my opinion on it.
Greg Hamlin (21:42):
I couldn't agree more, it's it's so hard to put
the toothpaste back in the tubeonce it's out. And on a lot of
these types of claims. That'swhat we're dealing with. I can
think of one recently where theinjured worker fell from heights
very, very seriously injured,and had methamphetamines on him
at the time. But we didn't getthe claim for 10 days. And in
(22:06):
that 10 days, he had alreadybeen discharged there in the in
the hospital did not do a drugtest. So that put us in an
extremely challenging positionthat if we had had it on day
one, we would have made surethat those steps were taken,
because in that particularstate, having that affirmative
test is critical if we're goingto try to determine whether this
meets the criteria of acompensable work comp injury. So
(22:28):
you know, I think it was a goodintentions. But in the long run,
getting that us that informationas soon as possible is really,
really important.
Mike Gilmartin (22:37):
The other big one, Greg, and we talk about all
the time, and it's an example Iused to use with my staff when
why every claim that comes tothe doors important and that
that they all need the exactsame level of investigation, and
they need 700 hours of work. Butit is important to make sure
you're looking at each claimwith that I have what what's
going on here, and what do Ineed to do. And the biggest one
(22:57):
is cuts for people that havediabetes, right how many times
that's where honestly, I've seena lot of claims come in late.
And we're the amputee stagebecause so and so you know, cuts
their foot on what whateverthey're doing, right, and it's a
normal card and they give themstitches where they suddenly the
urgent care and that claim nevercomes in. And then no one's
(23:17):
checking on this person to findout, it's infected, then it has
gangrene, then they're in thehospital, and then you're
talking about a below the kneeamputation. And that's when we
get the claim. It's like, oh,hey, can you guys fix this now?
And but it sounds silly. But howmany claims and in your guys's
careers have you seen thatstarted as a cut or a back
strain or something very simple.
They're the most serious claimsyou've ever handled. And I think
(23:40):
that's it's a it's a jarringexample, but it happens and it
happens a decent amount of thetime if care is not given
appropriately. And so it's alldownstream, right? I mean, a cut
on a foot and amputation aregoing to affect your EMA
drastically differently. And,you know, having that carrier
that can work on those thingsand can do it in a timely
(24:03):
manner. Yeah, it's thetoothpaste back in the tube is a
real thing.
Greg Hamlin (24:08):
Yeah, absolutely.
Absolutely. So switching gears alittle bit here, Dustin, on
reserving, we talked a littlebit about the importance of that
on the claim side. Why is itimportant when you're looking at
renewals, you're looking at, youknow, get making sure that we
have the right price that ourclaims team is accurately
reserving the claims. I youknow, we hear a lot about well,
(24:29):
that's too much up. Butconversely, we could have too
little up and that could impactyou negatively to talk a little
bit about that.
Dustin King (24:37):
Yeah, so it can it can go either way. Obviously if
if a claims under reserved, Idon't know if that's PC to call
it but you know from theunderwriting side, it makes it
very challenging for us torealize how we should price
their premiums, because we'renot really getting the full
picture on that. And thenconversely from the unit stats
(24:57):
report, which goes to thewriting Bureau section mines
past policy expiration, they'renot getting accurate data. So
they're Ema is going to beimpacted, whether it's under
reserved or reserved, adequatelyor over reserved because of that
impacting the EMA as well. Sofor us from underwriting, it
really gives us an accuratepicture. And we're kind of
(25:19):
playing a guessing game on whereto price premiums based on that.
So it's super important, notonly for that, but also for the
writing bureaus for us from thecarrier side to report the unit
stats report accurately. So theinsurance mod is, is as accurate
as possible. And Gray, I
Mike Gilmartin (25:39):
think that brings a big point that I'm sure
you talk to your folks about alot. And obviously, key risk,
you know, I know work in theindustry was the same way. I
mean, we reserved for mostlikely outcome, given the facts
that we have today. And I thinkthat's the tact that most
insurance carriers should takeor hopefully do take. But that
goes both ways, right? I thinkclaims adjusters at times,
forget that. It's not just hey,I need to increase this reserve.
(26:02):
But it's, Hey, something hashappened. And I need to now
decrease this reserve. And soit's always I think we always
look at reserving one way, or atleast historically, we looked at
it one way to say, Yeah, youknow, I need to increase this,
which ones we need to increase.
But it goes both ways. You have$500,000 on a file and you
somehow settle for 100,000, youshould be decreasing, or look to
decrease those reserves based onwhat's going on. It's just a
(26:23):
huge, a huge thing. I think it'smissing our industry at times.
Would you agree, Greg?
Greg Hamlin (26:31):
Oh, absolutely. And I think you know, we're so
focused on trying to make surewe have enough money up and that
we've reserved appropriatelybecause no one likes to
surprises. But conversely, ifwe've lived, we've had that
great outcome, or we thoughtthat hospital bill was going to
come in for, you know, $300,000,and we ended up paying $30,000.
We get back in there, we need tofix that, because that's just
(26:51):
hanging out there. And you know,we're cautious not to drop
reserves too fast. But I thinkthose swings do happen, and they
sometimes get missed. Sometimeswe only focus on the ones that
go the other way. So I thinkthat's a really good point. You
know, talking about EMR, it'sone of the things I think we all
feel passionate about is thatinsured's do have an opportunity
(27:15):
to impact that they have morecontrol than they may think they
have. So Dustin, what are someof the things that stand out to
you? That could allow an insurerthat they're maybe they're
listening to this and theyrealize you know what, our
experience mod is not great.
We've got some problems in ourprogram. What are some things
they could do to try to turnthat around?
Dustin King (27:37):
Yeah, great question. There's several things
that they can do to impact theirmod. First off, I would say
either them or their agentshould look at their mod and
confirm its accuracy. And wetalked about this a little bit,
looking at each payroll,ensuring that it's class
properly as well. And thenlooking at the reserving also
(27:58):
from the claims aspect. Sothat's one component they can
look at. Secondly, I would saythat ensuring that there's a
strong safety program in place,they're really going to want to
analyze trends and look at lookand see what are the drivers not
only from a cost perspective,but those near misses, and try
(28:18):
to impact those accidents thatthey're having from a safety
perspective to try to stop thoseaccidents. Not only do you want
to protect the people, yourgreatest asset that works for
you, but also it can controlyour mod as well. We hit on this
a little bit reporting injuriesearly. That's one important
also, Greg, you had mentioned,the gentleman, I believe, that
(28:41):
had fell out and ended upinjuring themselves and we got
it later reported. That's justreally important letting the
adjuster handle it early on.
That way they can make theirpoints of contact, they can get
a case manager involved as theyneed to to try to help spur
along that treatment plan andimpact the claim in a positive
manner to try to bring thatinjured employee along to get
(29:03):
them back to the best outcomepossible. Another part of that
implementing a return to workprogram. We see a lot of larger
insurers that do have return towork programs. And that helps
when someone's put on lightduty, reduces the cost of
indemnity, which greatly canimpact the cost to claim which
in return would impact the modas well. And then investigating
(29:26):
accidents. Make sure there's ainvestigative process on those
near misses that I mentionedearlier. And then from a hiring
perspective, making sure thatthere's a good hiring plan in
place in terms of drug testingbeing done, there's background
checks being done and you'rehiring the right people up
front. As well as continualtraining with your employees,
(29:49):
especially the space we work inbeing in a high hazard
environment. You want to makesure that training is being up
to date and safety is reallybeing integrated and
incorporated into thoseprograms, that's probably the
most important piece is thislast part I'll touch on, which
is management commitment tosafety is really having
management all the way from thetop up, bought into safety, and
(30:09):
trying to impact their safetyculture overall. And that's
really what we look for, fromour ramp team, our loss control
team here at Berkley industrial,they'll go out and make sure
that that's one of the biggestdrivers that management is
committed to safety program arereally bought into it. So those
were just a few that I couldthink of offhand.
Mike Gilmartin (30:31):
Yeah, I think you hit on some great points.
And I'm gonna use a phrase Mywife hates that I use when we
get in an argument. But it's atwo way street, not a highway in
a bike path, right? Like youneed both sides to be invested.
So if you have a carrier that'sreally invested, but an insured
that's not or doesn't have thatculture, it doesn't really
matter how good the carrier is,because you're not going to get
people back to work. And youdon't really have that thought
(30:53):
process of safety. And viceversa, if you have a really good
insured that maybe he's had sometough years or really wants to
do the right thing, but doesn'thave a carrier that's going to
help them implement thoseprograms and handle the claims
in the right way, and make it acollaborative process. You're
setting yourself up to fail. Andso I think you brought some
great points. But you truly doneed somebody who is willing to
(31:16):
have a culture of safety andthat 100% starts at the top. And
I know that when we're on ourunderwriting meetings, the key
risk and we're doing point ofsale calls, or we're doing
underwriting meetings withlarger insurance to learn about
them. It's the number one thingwe ask, what is your culture?
Like? What? What drives yoursafety programs? We know, what
do you guys do internally tomake sure you're doing the right
(31:38):
things? Because if that isn'tthere, you can have all the
programs you want. But if peopledon't enforce them, or it's not
ingrained in people, it doesn'tmatter. So I think your points
are spot on. From my side andthe sales side in both the
claims side, Greg, I think you
Greg Hamlin (31:53):
would agree. Oh, yeah. And I think you hit on
something that's reallyimportant is you can have the
processes in place. But if theculture is not there, it's not
going to help and you know, aperfect micro example, that we
had an injured worker that'swearing their safety harness,
but all the slacks out. So whenhe falls off the roof, he ends
up dying. And it's so sad thatthat happened. So did they
(32:14):
follow the process? Yes, theprocess was to wear your
harness. The problem was theyweren't bought into the safety
culture. And the slack was allthe way out. So, you know, with
a lot of these things, it'sreally about good strong
partnerships. And, you know, wehope that in this marketplace,
whether it's key risk, or itsBerkley industrial comp, we're
offering that I think that's oneof the things that makes us a
(32:37):
pretty unique. And going intothat a little bit further. All
three of us have worked fordifferent employers that
probably had different modelsthan the Berkeley model. One of
the things that I foundrefreshing about working for
Berkeley industrial comp is thepartnership between claims and
underwriting and knowing ourunderwriters and our
(32:59):
underwriters, knowing our claimstaff, just how do you feel like
that adds value in the process?
Dustin King (33:05):
Yeah, that's a great point. We've all, as you
mentioned, worked at othercarriers before and you've
probably been at some that wouldoperate in what I would probably
call a siloed aware claims zone.
One thing underwriting is doingsomething sales is doing
something else finance audit.
And you know, there's no truecollaboration on that. Well, you
know, it's equally important tohave that collaboration. I feel
(33:28):
our collaboration super stronghere. We're always talking. One
from the underwriting side, it'sreally important for the claims
to communicate issues thatthey're saying up front so that
underwriting is aware of it,especially getting ahead of some
larger renewals so thatunderwriting can realize how we
need to factor that intopricing. But also what can we do
(33:48):
to leverage the agent to try toget involved, if there's issues
we're seeing, such as maybe ainsurer that doesn't offer
return to work and we're seeinga major impact to their
indemnity costs? Well, that'ssomething underwriting needs to
know. And, Greg, your team hasreally been great on trying to
give our team a heads up on thatas well. Not only that, but
(34:10):
hiring practices because you'rereally the day to day that's
communicating with theseinsurance. So you're seeing the
issues a lot sooner than itwould bubble up to underwriting.
So that's really important tohave that partnership and
collaboration together.
Mike Gilmartin (34:24):
Don't make Greg's head too big. We don't we
don't want that to happen. We'regood. I'm thinking about
everything we're talking aboutnow to get to. It's not metal,
like big picture. But all ofthis is just effort and
intentionality, right? So it iseffort to do the things we're
talking about it's effort to notbe siloed. It takes effort to
(34:45):
collaborate back and forth. Andit's easier not to do it right.
Like the reason a lot ofcompanies don't do it is because
it's just easier to work in yourlittle silo and move on. The
reason companies don't have asafety culture is because it's a
lot easier to Greg's point.
Yeah, we're the hardest but likeI don't really do all the things
in the checks I need to do, butI'm wearing it. Right, it's
effort. And I think if peopleare willing to put in the effort
(35:05):
and their intention about whatthey're doing, it makes a
difference. And that's where Isee the biggest difference in
the burglary companies and keyrisk, and certainly been is,
we're intentional about the waywe're set up. And we're set up
this way for a reason because itdelivers better results, in my
opinion. And but it's not easy,right? Like, in anything, you
put the effort in, you're gonnaget more out of it. And I think
(35:27):
that gets lost. Sometimes it'slike, yeah, you can have all
this stuff there and in place,but if the effort to do it, that
actually makes a difference.
Greg Hamlin (35:36):
I couldn't agree more. And I think, you know,
just even thinking about Dustinon our end with Berkeley
industrial comp, we have our ownsafety folks that are out there
you work with those guys talkeda little bit a little bit about
them. Dustin,
Dustin King (35:49):
yes. From our safety side, I mentioned
earlier, we call it our rampteam and ramp has, they've been
around for several years withthey've got tons of industry
experience, the majority of themwork within the industry that we
actually operate in, whether itbe mining, construction, some
oil and gas and cell tower work,things like that, what we do is
(36:11):
essentially, we like to seeourselves as an extension of
that insured, we really want toget in there, look at their
programs, analyze what's goingon and help them impact that we
could do specific training thatwe do. With us being a smaller
carrier, we can really partnerwith them and help impact their
safety culture and programs thatwe offer unique things that we
(36:31):
can bring to the table, we havea risk management center that we
utilize that we offer to ourinsurance at no cost. And this
is a program that essentiallycan do both training from an HR
perspective, HR is type system,as well as if it's a smaller
insurer that doesn't have asafety program that needs to
(36:52):
create a full safety program, wecan help partner with them on
that as well. So it's kind of aunique process that we can do.
And I can't thank my guysenough. They're really great at
their jobs and just reallypassionate about what they did.
Greg Hamlin (37:08):
So Mike, you know, on your edit key risk, your we
obviously our company solvedifferent problems in the
marketplace. So we're really inthe high hazard area. I know you
build similar partnerships withthe insurance and agents you
work with. Talk to us a littlebit about that, Mike? Yeah,
Mike Gilmartin (37:24):
I mean, it's, it's it's fairly similar to what
you guys were describing. Imean, historically, we've always
been a company that, that we'lllook at the companies with
higher e mods. And our thing is,we want to help you bring that
down, right, like we have groupsin place. So we have a risk
management team as well, that'smade up of loss control folks.
And then client serviceexecutives. And the plan is, I
love the way you said it to bean extension of the insured and
(37:46):
work with them throughout theyear to make sure they're
implementing the things theyneed to implement just to get a
better result. And so we're alot more hands on when it comes
to the service level and whatwe're, we're willing to offer
folks and so I think that's, butthat's huge, right? I think you
go back to those risk managementfolks have meetings with the
underwriters, they have meetingswith claims to say, how are we
doing with this insured? What'sgoing on? Are they reporting
(38:08):
claims timely? Hey, are theresome injuries or some trends we
need to look at and go out anddo some training for or work
with them on how they can set uptheir their manufacturing plant
in a safer way? So it's similar,you guys, we don't do as much of
that scary high hazard stuff.
But we look for theopportunities of the folks that
want to do the right thing andare interested in doing the
right thing. And that's who wepartner best with, because we're
(38:29):
going to be hands on, and wewant you to get a better result.
So that's awesome.
Greg Hamlin (38:36):
Well, I you know, I just appreciate both you guys
being on this episode. I thinkthis is a really important one,
I can't believe it's been twoyears that we've been doing a
Justin, we haven't covered thistopic, which I think will be
really helpful for both folks onthe claim side, even those that
are vendors that might beinvolved in the process to
understand what an e mod is andhow all this stuff plays
(38:57):
together to work. The one.
Mike Gilmartin (39:00):
One final question, sir, yep, go for it.
I'm very passionate about thistopic. Sorry, as I said, so
you're you are the claims guy,right. And I think you and I've
talked on previous podcastsabout how games folks at times
can get very involved in thetasks that they're doing, and
not see how that affects the bigpicture. How do you is the guy
that runs the claims group, getthe message that what they're
(39:22):
doing on a day to day basisaffects the mod effects like how
do you how do you get them inthat mindset in that culture of
what you do makes a difference.
And it plays in all the biggerthings we're talking about?
Greg Hamlin (39:33):
That is great, great question. And I don't know
that there's a silver bullet,but I think it involves, again,
what you talked about earlierabout effort. You know, it's the
little things we right nowyesterday, I spent two hours of
my day meeting with adjustersthat have one to two years doing
a mentorship program, talkingabout how can you move the
(39:54):
needle at your desk at yourlevel. Now, I don't know how
many VPS are taking title fromtheir desk to spend time like
that with folks, and I'm nottrying to pat myself on the
back. But it the reason youdon't is it takes time. We're
all busy. So I think it'sprioritizing and deciding that
the people matter, they have tounderstand how what they're
doing day to day connects toeverything else. I also think
(40:17):
getting them out of the office.
So they get a chance to eithermeet with an insured, or come to
meet an agency to see how thosethings can act really, really
helps. You know, we have one ofour adjusters, we sent to
Vermont to meet with one of ourlarge insurance out there. And
he came back and he's like, wow,now I understand how this injury
happens, because I've seen themachinery that they're using. So
(40:39):
when they say I got hurt doingXYZ, I know what that is now.
And that's a challenge whenyou're staying in the office all
day long. So I think any of thethings we can do to help connect
the dots really matter. Butagain, going back to what you
said earlier, I think it'seffort, and it takes a lot of
intention to do it. Because thedefault setting is to roll
through your day to day followyour handbook and process the
(41:01):
claim. So
Mike Gilmartin (41:04):
that's great.
Sorry to throw a curveball atyou. I just figured it was a
good segue to that.
Greg Hamlin (41:08):
No, I'm glad you asked. I think it's a really,
really important. And again,it's one of the things that
attracted me to thisorganization, from others that
I've worked for is I felt likethere, the opportunities are
here. And the support is here todo those things. And I don't
know that I can say that inevery place along my journey. So
kudos to the Berkeley companiesfor doing that. Dustin, as we
(41:28):
wrap up this episode, one of thethings I've wanted to do this
year, is again, I'm just areally big proponent of putting
positive vibes out there in theuniverse. I felt like Karma can
be a good thing. So one of thethings I wanted to end each
episode with this year, isasking each of the people that
we had on the podcast, somethingthat they're grateful for. So I
know for you Dustin, there's alot lot that you have in your
(41:51):
life. So I just wanted to ask,pose that question to you.
What's something you're gratefulfor this year? Dustin? Yeah, so
Dustin King (41:57):
great question.
Honestly, I never even imaginedI'd be in the position. I'm in
currently and able to impact somany lives. And you mentioned
positivity does actually onStrengthsFinder. That's one of
my top attributes. For me, justbeing able to positively impact
both of my teams from the rampperspective and underwriting and
being able to make people'slives better. So that's really
(42:20):
the most important part of it.
Greg Hamlin (42:23):
I think that's what leadership is all about really,
is if you're doing it right,other people's lives get better.
So at least that's the hope.
Well, I want to thank you bothfor being on this episode. And
remember, our remind ourlisteners our motto to do right
think differently. And don'tforget to care. And with that,
we'll end up this episode. Wehope you join us for future
(42:45):
episodes that aired every twoweeks on Monday. And don't
forget to follow us on our blog,which you can find on our
website at Berkley industrialcalm. Thanks, everybody. And so
long
Hello everybody and welcome to adjusted. I'm your
host Greg Hamlin coming at youfrom beautiful Birmingham,
Alabama and Berkley IndustrialComp and with me as my co host
for the day, Mike Gilmartin.
Mike, if you want to say helloto everyone.
Mike Gilmartin (00:27):
Yeah. Hey, everybody, happy to be back on
the podcast. I'm coming to youfrom Greensboro where it is
seasonably warm. And Greg, wehave way too much pollen
already. It is gettingridiculous.
Greg Hamlin (00:38):
That is one thing I've had to adjust to being in
the south is every day I get outto my car and there's like a
thin sheet of yellow. I don'tknow if that's the pine trees or
something. Because I didn't havethat in Indiana. That's a new
thing. We have our special guesttoday Dustin King, who's the
vice president of underwritinghere at Berkeley industrial
(01:00):
comp. And we're excited to havehim. Dustin if you want to say
hello to everybody.
Dustin King (01:05):
Hey, guys. Yeah, nice to meet everyone. Yeah,
I've been at Berkeley industrialcomp since last May. So coming
up on a year pretty soon here.
And then in insurance for almost18 years, it's kind of been a
whirlwind, crazy to think abouthow quickly it all goes.
Greg Hamlin (01:21):
Well, we're glad to have you here. This is actually
a fun podcast in that I havesomebody on the underwriting
side, somebody on the businessdevelopment side, and then
myself on the claim side, andall three of us started up in
claims. So we decided with thisgroup today, we are going to
tackle experience mods and thisis going to be something I think
on the claim side, we get a lotof questions from our agents,
(01:43):
from our insureds of what doesthis do to my e mod or my
experience mod. And so I thoughttoday would be a good day to
tackle that question on theclaim side, we don't always get
our arms around, and maybe shedsome light on that. But before
we do that, Dustin, I want totalk to you a little bit about
how you ended up in theindustry. I know you if I'm
(02:05):
remembering right, you grew upin Mississippi, and I'm assuming
as you were growing up, you knewthis was your calling in life
that you were going to go intoinsurance.
Dustin King (02:16):
Oh, yeah, I knew since I was seven years old. No.
Yeah, like like everyone else. Ikind of fell into insurance.
Born and raised in Brandon,Mississippi, it's a small suburb
right outside of Jackson, rightafter high school, went to the
University of SouthernMississippi in Hattiesburg,
about two hours away fromBrandon, and was in the army and
(02:36):
then ROTC as well throughoutcollege. So I was really geared
toward wanting to go into theart continuing my military
career. I got commissioned as anArmy officer in 2005. And I was
going to do foreign armyofficer, however, that didn't
really pan out, I ended up goinglogistics instead so and went
(02:59):
National Guard and not activeduty. So I kind of had to pivot
my career afterwards. Andthrough that process, and oh
six, I applied for several jobs,and some of them that at various
other companies, and one of themwas insurance. And that kind of
piqued my interest. I wasn'treal sure. Anything about
insurance at all. In fact, whenI interviewed I thought I was
(03:21):
interviewing for a property andcasualty bite claims job, and
not workers compensation. Soyeah, I had a lot to learn about
the industry getting into it.
Looking back, I'm thrilled thatI made the decision. I'm very
fortunate that I fell into it,but it definitely was not
planned. Once I got into it. Ireally enjoy doing it, though,
and have enjoyed my career overthe past nearly 18 years.
Greg Hamlin (03:47):
I gotta say, Dustin, thank you for your
service. I've worked with manyveterans and people who've been
involved in the National Guard.
And I'm always impressed withthe amount of discipline and
focus folks have in coming fromthat side. I just out of
curiosity, how do you feel likeyour experience in serving in
the army has shaped who you areas an employee? We don't know
(04:10):
normally gets asked thatquestion. So I felt like we
should.
Dustin King (04:14):
Now that's a great one. Throw me a curveball on
that. You know, the Army is oneof the greatest organizations to
teach leadership. And from ayoung age, I was in JROTC in
high school and played sports aswell. And I learned leadership
from that aspect, but then incollege and being in the Army in
college, and then rightafterwards, it really helped
shape my leadership potentialand just taught me a lot about
(04:37):
people and really, thecamaraderie of things and
getting people to move in adirection even though sometimes
there's challenges and really,there is no better educators in
the army and in terms ofleadership school, and that's
really what it taught me butalso core values about hard
work, which was instilled in meas a young age through my dad,
(04:58):
but also the reason I'm with mysergeants in the in the army, as
well as some of my other leadersin the army also. So just, you
know, a lot of good things cameout of it, I definitely wouldn't
ever change the trajectory thatI've been on. It's been very
blessed.
Mike Gilmartin (05:14):
Yeah, I want to piggyback on what Greg said,
Thank you for your service, veryappreciated. My brother was also
in the army, so and my olderbrother was in the Navy for 25
years. So Oh, definitely hitshome. And I'm always, like Greg
said, impressed with with thediscipline and the careers that
folks have after their militarycareer. Before we talked about
emails, I think it'd be good tomaybe go back to basics and talk
(05:36):
a little bit about maybe yourrole in underwriting but just
kind of an overview of yourthought of, in a nutshell, what
what is underwriting? What isthe underwriters are trying to
do when they're looking at aninsurer when they're looking at
a new account? What does thatlook like?
Dustin King (05:50):
Yeah, sure. So I'll start out just with the basics
of what is underwriting,essentially pricing a business
to cover its losses, and we wantto give a fair price to the
insured as well as enough tocover what the loss is going to
be. And, you know, it can be thesame when you're looking at
property and liability. But forwork comp, you know, we want to
(06:12):
analyze what types of losses aregoing on, the first thing we
start to do is analyze data. Sowhen, when an account comes in
from our partner agents, whichwe utilize the independent agent
method, so we pay a commissionthe agents, they send us the
business, the account rolls,then we start that process, the
first thing we look at, we lookat their five year loss history,
(06:35):
we want to determine what typesof losses they're having. Look
at the trending, try to look atseverity as well. And then we
look at their experience modalso to see what that score is,
and what's kind of driving thatas well. And experience mods and
we'll talk about that in aminute. We really want to look
at payroll to see if there's anybeen any audit issues in the
(06:56):
past, we want to look at classcodes to make sure that the
Accord app that the agent sendsin is accurate based on what the
e mod shows from whatever ratingbureau that they're within,
within their state. And thenfrom there, we start doing our
pricing model. So it's a reallyunique thing that our
underwriters go through not onlythe data analysis, but also the
(07:19):
people aspect to try to connectwith our agents and insurance
also. So that's kind of the neatthing about underwriting.
Greg Hamlin (07:27):
I remember Dustin, I was at a career fair for a
previous employer, we weretrying to recruit new people.
And of course, I'm talking aboutclaims and how awesome it is.
And, and one of these collegestudents is like, well, I am an
English major, and I lovewriting. So I'm very interested
in the underwriting position.
And I it was well as both arelike well, that's not exactly
what this is. This is actuallymuch more on the finance side,
(07:50):
and evaluation of risk. So I'mglad that you took the time to
explain that in case there's anyconfusion out there of what it
is an underwriter does, buthaven't been on both sides,
Dustin claims and underwriting.
What do you like about each
Dustin King (08:08):
side for me coming out from the claim side. And
initially in my career, I was awork comp adjuster for nearly
six years that really got my dayset in terms of being able to
analyze claims and look attrending and try to determine
what might happen with with anaccount, what types of losses
they're having. So I think someof the best underwriters Not to
(08:31):
brag about it come from theclaim side, honestly, I've
worked with several folks thatcame up from the claim side and
underwriting and they can justreally understand that process.
And it helps them analyze thatbetter. But from the claim side,
I love the analysis part of it.
And being able to analyze whattypes of reserves we need to put
up what the cost is going to be.
(08:52):
And then some of the negotiationaspect from the settlement piece
as well. Those were some of themost enjoyable parts of the
claim side. From theunderwriting side, I would say
probably the people aspect interms of partnering with our
agents to try to come up with asolution and try to help our
agents either win an account orlook for better outcomes. So
(09:12):
that's really the power from theunderwriting side. And I like
the best also with my internalteams just working with them. We
have some of the best people inthe industry here. And it's
great to be able to connect notonly internally with Barclay
industrial, but other operatingunits around the Barclay company
as well, such as key risk andthe net preferred some other
(09:33):
ones we really try to partnerwith and help out. We're always
collaborating a lot. So that'skind of the unique thing about
Berkeley in itself.
Mike Gilmartin (09:43):
Yeah, I think everybody good comes from claims
so I think you can just broadblanket and poisonous prices is
probably the best at what theydo. But you know, going back to
email so you hear about it allthe time from insurance from
agents. I don't want my email togo up. You know how Are these
reserves gonna affect my Emad?
How is this set up claim processis going to gonna affect
(10:04):
everything in a nutshell whatwhat is an e mod for everybody
out there.
Dustin King (10:10):
So an EMA is essentially a multiplier, and
it's used to factor to adjustthe cost of premium, you've
probably heard that terminology,a one is considered a unity mod,
if it's less than one, then theaccount can get a credit if it's
greater than a one, and it's adebit on it. So if an account
has a debit mod, for instance, a1.25, they're paying 25% More
(10:33):
than they would, for an accountthat has a one point o mod, the
opposite way, if it's a pointseven, five mod, they're getting
a credit on it. So they'repaying 25% less than someone at
a one one mod. And the reasonthese were constructed from our
writing bureaus is essentiallywhat they say is that it really
measures for some instance, theoverall safety program and loss
(10:59):
prevention program have anaccount. Because the theory is,
the better the program, thebetter the mod should be. And
that's kind of the theory behindit. But yeah, it's a multiplier
that adjusts their premium.
Mike Gilmartin (11:13):
Thank you hit on something there. That's really
important. I think thefoundation of an experience mod
and something that I think everyonce awhile gets overlooked is a
lot of it's in the hands of theinsurer, right. So, I mean, you
need to have a good program. Andwe'll get into kind of claims
and how that all factors in. Butit really starts with the
insured having a solid programand a solid understanding of
(11:34):
what safety looks like whatreturn to work looks like, and
how picking the right insurancecarrier can make a difference in
their EMR going down or goingup, if they decide to go a
direction they shouldn't go. AndI think that gets missed a lot.
And you're speaking from theclaim side, I understand how it
works from that, but but talkingto agents on a daily basis, in
(11:57):
my role where hey, you know, wehave these three really cheap
prices from these threecarriers. And that's great. And
you might have a cheaper pricenow. But if your EMR goes up
year, over year, over a year,that price is going to start
climbing. And in the long run,you're probably going to be out
more money than you would havehad you pick the right, the
right program. If that makessense. I just I get very
(12:18):
passionate about this. So I wantto make sure everyone
understands, like EMRs areimportant. And they affect long
term costs for an insured. And Ithink that gets lost a lot of
wives want the cheapest price orI want you know, it's all bottom
line for me right now. Andthat's great. But that's not the
long term view that you needwhen looking at earbuds.
Greg Hamlin (12:37):
That's a really important point, Mike. And, you
know, we do see that a lotwhere, you know, one of our I
can think of one of our accountsthat ended up going with a
cheaper price. They they calledus a few months later. And they
were asking us, hey, you know,we need to get this these claims
reassigned, because nobody'sanswered on the phone. And, and
they've moved this around fourtimes different people and the
(12:59):
person who's handling doesn'thave people skills, and then we
looked at it, and we're like,Well, this is your new carrier,
we can actually make anychanges. You know, that's what
came with the cheaper price. Sothere is a lot there when it
comes to service andpartnerships that really can
impact that. e mod. Dustin, Iwanted you maybe if you could
(13:21):
talk a little bit about I knowwe don't want to get too deep
into this, but just what classcodes are and how those factor
in because there's so manydifferent types of jobs out
there. And getting that right.
Pretty important.
Dustin King (13:34):
Yeah, so the classification system came came
around in the early 1900s.
Essentially, what what happenedwas there was similarly related
risks that will just say, forinstance, the candlestick maker
and a shoemaker were being inclass the same. And they were
having to pay the same premium.
Well, when NCCI and otherwriting bureaus came in, they
(13:54):
decided, well, that's notnecessarily fair, because
there's different exposures,different classes of business.
So the classification systemcame around to put a unique
identifier on each class ofbusiness, so that they're
charged a different rate perclass, for instance, and
construction, 5403 generalconstruction, it has a different
(14:16):
rate and 5645. So when NCCIlooks at all these classes, they
look at it on a per state basis.
And then they do a ratinganalysis every year to where
they will look and see whattheir actual unexpected losses
are in develop out rates basedon that. So each year the rates
can change, depending on whattheir past loss history and
(14:38):
payroll was, for the past periodthat NCCI is analyzing on that.
But classes divide up differenttypes of risk based on what
their governing class code is ortype of industry that they work
with.
Greg Hamlin (14:54):
I think that makes a lot of sense. You know, I'm an
office worker. So obviouslythat's a very different work,
different type of risk thanworking in construction. And so
when we start talking about IImods just need to keep that in
mind that the class codesmatter, too, because the type of
job you're doing could be moreor less risky, depending on what
(15:14):
it is you're up to. Yeah, that's
Dustin King (15:16):
a really important piece for not only insurance,
but obviously agents tounderstand as well. I know a lot
of agents that will go back andlook through the experience mod
to make sure that things areclass properly, and they're not
being coded differently to wheremaybe they're paying a higher
rate based on a class code thatthey shouldn't be classed as.
Mike Gilmartin (15:35):
Yeah, that's a really good point. I think it I
think when it comes toexperience mods, it's just all
groups understanding how theyplay into it, and how they can
affect the outcome of it just bydoing what you're talking about.
So making sure things are classproperly, making sure claims are
handled properly, making sureyou have solid return to work
programs and what have you. Butone of the biggest things I
think on the claim side you hearis reserving reserving,
(15:57):
reserving, hey, you know, canyou lower these reserves?
They're they're ima, you know,blah, blah, blah. Can you kind
of explain a little bit howreserving plays into an e mod? I
mean, obviously, it looks atlast history. But can you have
to run through that a little bitfor running?
Dustin King (16:14):
Yeah, for us. From the underwriting side. Whenever
we have an account that comes upfor renewal or a piece of new
business that comes inobviously, renewals are easier
because we can call our claimsdepartment and or resolution
department and chat with themand talk about each account and
determine why why things werereserved a certain way that
reserving gives the underwriteran accurate picture. And what
(16:39):
claims is for saying the cost tobe for that type of claim, so
that we know from anunderwriting perspective, how
much premium we need to coverfor those types of losses. So
it's probably the most importantthing to ensure that claims are
adequately and accuratelyreserved, so that pricing is on
(16:59):
point. So there's no majorswings and pricing for an
insured, it's really the bestthing for uninsured to not have
these huge ups and downs interms of premiums and pay a
consistent price over time. Ifyou were to look at an account
that stays with a carrier formultiple years, they're likely
paying less than shopping and goand having these major swings,
(17:22):
because they'll have so many upsand downs that the variance is
just major instead of stayingconsistently with one with one
carrier that keeps thatconsistent rate keeps a
consistent premium over time.
Greg Hamlin (17:34):
Great, great, great points. Dustin, you know, I
know, one of the things that canbe confusing, and I don't know
if I'm sure all of us have seenit, even both of you and your
claims life is sometimes we haveinsurance that maybe don't want
to report claims, becausethey're thinking I think I could
probably just take care of thismyself and save a little money.
(17:56):
You know, when I was at I alwaysuse the example when I was
Mike Gilmartin (17:59):
really well Greg really? All right.
Greg Hamlin (18:04):
So when I was in high school, I had a wood
paneled minivan. That was myfirst car. Nice. And I got a
little wreck, I was leaving acarport and I hit the pillar
lease. That's my story stilltoday. And it took out the door.
And my mom was like, There's noway we're turning that into the
insurance. You're a boy driver,you're gonna go the junkyard and
(18:25):
get a new door. So I did so thenI had a door that did not have
wood paneling, that was adifferent color than the rest of
my minivan. That I guess wascharacter building, because we
were trying to save some moneyon the insurance premium. Right.
So I think sometimes though,people think about their work
comp program, the same way thatI thought about my parents
thought about my car. And Ithink there's some some
(18:49):
fallacies in that, as we talkabout men only claim. So Justin,
I wanted you to talk a littlebit about how medical only
claims are treated differentlythan a last time claim. And then
maybe, you know, between Mikeand I, we can talk about some of
the challenges and thinking youcan do it better if you just pay
for it out of pocket.
Dustin King (19:06):
Okay, yeah, just coming from the experience
writing side on that. There. Therating bureaus actually
incentivize companies to reportclaims for medical onlys.
Because they're actuallydiscounted by 70%. So the
insured is actually only gettingattributed 30% of that to the
(19:27):
actual primary and excessportions of the client of the
EMA to Yeah, it's reallyincentive to report is going to
be discounted. So from thatside, you know, there's really
no reason not to report that.
Greg Hamlin (19:42):
Mike, have you seen things go sideways when people
thought they could do it ontheir own when you're on the
claim side?
Mike Gilmartin (19:47):
Never Greg, it's always a good idea, as I've said
before, no, I think it's, youknow, it's, again, it's a short
term view and instead of a longterm view, and I think, you
know, it's done with goodintentions, right. So it's I
don't think it's ever done withoh, I don't want to do this or I
don't want to do that. I thinkit's really the idea of oh man,
like you said, My insurancepremiums go up, my email might
go up, you know, I can pay forthese three office visits, or I
(20:10):
can pay for these two PT visits.
And I think what insurancequickly realize is they do 700
other things. And so their mainjob isn't to make sure that that
person is getting the care theyneed, getting the referrals
authorized. And all it takes isone or two non return phone
calls or a visit not to be setup timely or questions from from
that injured worker. And they'reseeking the counsel of an
(20:34):
attorney, or they're, you know,no one's answering my questions.
And I feel like I shouldn't beworking. So I'm going to figure
this out on my own, whichgenerally, is not a good thing.
commercials for attorneys on TV.
And so a lot of times, by thetime we get the claim, it either
comes in through an attorney, oroh, shoot, now they need
surgery, and we're not preparedfor this at all. And we don't
(20:57):
really know what kind of carethey had and you lose a lot of
the control, you would have hadto help give that person the
care, they truly need to getthem back to work and kind of
back in their daily life as bestas possible. And that directly
affects an EMR because thatclaim that could have been
$5,000, or $2,000, or 500 bucks,is now a $25,000 claim with an
(21:19):
attorney with time out of work.
And it's a little bit of anexaggeration, but you see it all
the time, it's why earlyreporting of claims is so
important. Because then as ateam, you can figure out the
best way to get this person backto their whole life and back to
what they were doing assuccessfully as possible. And
you really miss that boat whenthe right parties are involved.
That's my opinion on it.
Greg Hamlin (21:42):
I couldn't agree more, it's it's so hard to put
the toothpaste back in the tubeonce it's out. And on a lot of
these types of claims. That'swhat we're dealing with. I can
think of one recently where theinjured worker fell from heights
very, very seriously injured,and had methamphetamines on him
at the time. But we didn't getthe claim for 10 days. And in
(22:06):
that 10 days, he had alreadybeen discharged there in the in
the hospital did not do a drugtest. So that put us in an
extremely challenging positionthat if we had had it on day
one, we would have made surethat those steps were taken,
because in that particularstate, having that affirmative
test is critical if we're goingto try to determine whether this
meets the criteria of acompensable work comp injury. So
(22:28):
you know, I think it was a goodintentions. But in the long run,
getting that us that informationas soon as possible is really,
really important.
Mike Gilmartin (22:37):
The other big one, Greg, and we talk about all
the time, and it's an example Iused to use with my staff when
why every claim that comes tothe doors important and that
that they all need the exactsame level of investigation, and
they need 700 hours of work. Butit is important to make sure
you're looking at each claimwith that I have what what's
going on here, and what do Ineed to do. And the biggest one
(22:57):
is cuts for people that havediabetes, right how many times
that's where honestly, I've seena lot of claims come in late.
And we're the amputee stagebecause so and so you know, cuts
their foot on what whateverthey're doing, right, and it's a
normal card and they give themstitches where they suddenly the
urgent care and that claim nevercomes in. And then no one's
(23:17):
checking on this person to findout, it's infected, then it has
gangrene, then they're in thehospital, and then you're
talking about a below the kneeamputation. And that's when we
get the claim. It's like, oh,hey, can you guys fix this now?
And but it sounds silly. But howmany claims and in your guys's
careers have you seen thatstarted as a cut or a back
strain or something very simple.
They're the most serious claimsyou've ever handled. And I think
(23:40):
that's it's a it's a jarringexample, but it happens and it
happens a decent amount of thetime if care is not given
appropriately. And so it's alldownstream, right? I mean, a cut
on a foot and amputation aregoing to affect your EMA
drastically differently. And,you know, having that carrier
that can work on those thingsand can do it in a timely
(24:03):
manner. Yeah, it's thetoothpaste back in the tube is a
real thing.
Greg Hamlin (24:08):
Yeah, absolutely.
Absolutely. So switching gears alittle bit here, Dustin, on
reserving, we talked a littlebit about the importance of that
on the claim side. Why is itimportant when you're looking at
renewals, you're looking at, youknow, get making sure that we
have the right price that ourclaims team is accurately
reserving the claims. I youknow, we hear a lot about well,
(24:29):
that's too much up. Butconversely, we could have too
little up and that could impactyou negatively to talk a little
bit about that.
Dustin King (24:37):
Yeah, so it can it can go either way. Obviously if
if a claims under reserved, Idon't know if that's PC to call
it but you know from theunderwriting side, it makes it
very challenging for us torealize how we should price
their premiums, because we'renot really getting the full
picture on that. And thenconversely from the unit stats
(24:57):
report, which goes to thewriting Bureau section mines
past policy expiration, they'renot getting accurate data. So
they're Ema is going to beimpacted, whether it's under
reserved or reserved, adequatelyor over reserved because of that
impacting the EMA as well. Sofor us from underwriting, it
really gives us an accuratepicture. And we're kind of
(25:19):
playing a guessing game on whereto price premiums based on that.
So it's super important, notonly for that, but also for the
writing bureaus for us from thecarrier side to report the unit
stats report accurately. So theinsurance mod is, is as accurate
as possible. And Gray, I
Mike Gilmartin (25:39):
think that brings a big point that I'm sure
you talk to your folks about alot. And obviously, key risk,
you know, I know work in theindustry was the same way. I
mean, we reserved for mostlikely outcome, given the facts
that we have today. And I thinkthat's the tact that most
insurance carriers should takeor hopefully do take. But that
goes both ways, right? I thinkclaims adjusters at times,
forget that. It's not just hey,I need to increase this reserve.
(26:02):
But it's, Hey, something hashappened. And I need to now
decrease this reserve. And soit's always I think we always
look at reserving one way, or atleast historically, we looked at
it one way to say, Yeah, youknow, I need to increase this,
which ones we need to increase.
But it goes both ways. You have$500,000 on a file and you
somehow settle for 100,000, youshould be decreasing, or look to
decrease those reserves based onwhat's going on. It's just a
(26:23):
huge, a huge thing. I think it'smissing our industry at times.
Would you agree, Greg?
Greg Hamlin (26:31):
Oh, absolutely. And I think you know, we're so
focused on trying to make surewe have enough money up and that
we've reserved appropriatelybecause no one likes to
surprises. But conversely, ifwe've lived, we've had that
great outcome, or we thoughtthat hospital bill was going to
come in for, you know, $300,000,and we ended up paying $30,000.
We get back in there, we need tofix that, because that's just
(26:51):
hanging out there. And you know,we're cautious not to drop
reserves too fast. But I thinkthose swings do happen, and they
sometimes get missed. Sometimeswe only focus on the ones that
go the other way. So I thinkthat's a really good point. You
know, talking about EMR, it'sone of the things I think we all
feel passionate about is thatinsured's do have an opportunity
(27:15):
to impact that they have morecontrol than they may think they
have. So Dustin, what are someof the things that stand out to
you? That could allow an insurerthat they're maybe they're
listening to this and theyrealize you know what, our
experience mod is not great.
We've got some problems in ourprogram. What are some things
they could do to try to turnthat around?
Dustin King (27:37):
Yeah, great question. There's several things
that they can do to impact theirmod. First off, I would say
either them or their agentshould look at their mod and
confirm its accuracy. And wetalked about this a little bit,
looking at each payroll,ensuring that it's class
properly as well. And thenlooking at the reserving also
(27:58):
from the claims aspect. Sothat's one component they can
look at. Secondly, I would saythat ensuring that there's a
strong safety program in place,they're really going to want to
analyze trends and look at lookand see what are the drivers not
only from a cost perspective,but those near misses, and try
(28:18):
to impact those accidents thatthey're having from a safety
perspective to try to stop thoseaccidents. Not only do you want
to protect the people, yourgreatest asset that works for
you, but also it can controlyour mod as well. We hit on this
a little bit reporting injuriesearly. That's one important
also, Greg, you had mentioned,the gentleman, I believe, that
(28:41):
had fell out and ended upinjuring themselves and we got
it later reported. That's justreally important letting the
adjuster handle it early on.
That way they can make theirpoints of contact, they can get
a case manager involved as theyneed to to try to help spur
along that treatment plan andimpact the claim in a positive
manner to try to bring thatinjured employee along to get
(29:03):
them back to the best outcomepossible. Another part of that
implementing a return to workprogram. We see a lot of larger
insurers that do have return towork programs. And that helps
when someone's put on lightduty, reduces the cost of
indemnity, which greatly canimpact the cost to claim which
in return would impact the modas well. And then investigating
(29:26):
accidents. Make sure there's ainvestigative process on those
near misses that I mentionedearlier. And then from a hiring
perspective, making sure thatthere's a good hiring plan in
place in terms of drug testingbeing done, there's background
checks being done and you'rehiring the right people up
front. As well as continualtraining with your employees,
(29:49):
especially the space we work inbeing in a high hazard
environment. You want to makesure that training is being up
to date and safety is reallybeing integrated and
incorporated into thoseprograms, that's probably the
most important piece is thislast part I'll touch on, which
is management commitment tosafety is really having
management all the way from thetop up, bought into safety, and
(30:09):
trying to impact their safetyculture overall. And that's
really what we look for, fromour ramp team, our loss control
team here at Berkley industrial,they'll go out and make sure
that that's one of the biggestdrivers that management is
committed to safety program arereally bought into it. So those
were just a few that I couldthink of offhand.
Mike Gilmartin (30:31):
Yeah, I think you hit on some great points.
And I'm gonna use a phrase Mywife hates that I use when we
get in an argument. But it's atwo way street, not a highway in
a bike path, right? Like youneed both sides to be invested.
So if you have a carrier that'sreally invested, but an insured
that's not or doesn't have thatculture, it doesn't really
matter how good the carrier is,because you're not going to get
people back to work. And youdon't really have that thought
(30:53):
process of safety. And viceversa, if you have a really good
insured that maybe he's had sometough years or really wants to
do the right thing, but doesn'thave a carrier that's going to
help them implement thoseprograms and handle the claims
in the right way, and make it acollaborative process. You're
setting yourself up to fail. Andso I think you brought some
great points. But you truly doneed somebody who is willing to
(31:16):
have a culture of safety andthat 100% starts at the top. And
I know that when we're on ourunderwriting meetings, the key
risk and we're doing point ofsale calls, or we're doing
underwriting meetings withlarger insurance to learn about
them. It's the number one thingwe ask, what is your culture?
Like? What? What drives yoursafety programs? We know, what
do you guys do internally tomake sure you're doing the right
(31:38):
things? Because if that isn'tthere, you can have all the
programs you want. But if peopledon't enforce them, or it's not
ingrained in people, it doesn'tmatter. So I think your points
are spot on. From my side andthe sales side in both the
claims side, Greg, I think you
Greg Hamlin (31:53):
would agree. Oh, yeah. And I think you hit on
something that's reallyimportant is you can have the
processes in place. But if theculture is not there, it's not
going to help and you know, aperfect micro example, that we
had an injured worker that'swearing their safety harness,
but all the slacks out. So whenhe falls off the roof, he ends
up dying. And it's so sad thatthat happened. So did they
(32:14):
follow the process? Yes, theprocess was to wear your
harness. The problem was theyweren't bought into the safety
culture. And the slack was allthe way out. So, you know, with
a lot of these things, it'sreally about good strong
partnerships. And, you know, wehope that in this marketplace,
whether it's key risk, or itsBerkley industrial comp, we're
offering that I think that's oneof the things that makes us a
(32:37):
pretty unique. And going intothat a little bit further. All
three of us have worked fordifferent employers that
probably had different modelsthan the Berkeley model. One of
the things that I foundrefreshing about working for
Berkeley industrial comp is thepartnership between claims and
underwriting and knowing ourunderwriters and our
(32:59):
underwriters, knowing our claimstaff, just how do you feel like
that adds value in the process?
Dustin King (33:05):
Yeah, that's a great point. We've all, as you
mentioned, worked at othercarriers before and you've
probably been at some that wouldoperate in what I would probably
call a siloed aware claims zone.
One thing underwriting is doingsomething sales is doing
something else finance audit.
And you know, there's no truecollaboration on that. Well, you
know, it's equally important tohave that collaboration. I feel
(33:28):
our collaboration super stronghere. We're always talking. One
from the underwriting side, it'sreally important for the claims
to communicate issues thatthey're saying up front so that
underwriting is aware of it,especially getting ahead of some
larger renewals so thatunderwriting can realize how we
need to factor that intopricing. But also what can we do
(33:48):
to leverage the agent to try toget involved, if there's issues
we're seeing, such as maybe ainsurer that doesn't offer
return to work and we're seeinga major impact to their
indemnity costs? Well, that'ssomething underwriting needs to
know. And, Greg, your team hasreally been great on trying to
give our team a heads up on thatas well. Not only that, but
(34:10):
hiring practices because you'rereally the day to day that's
communicating with theseinsurance. So you're seeing the
issues a lot sooner than itwould bubble up to underwriting.
So that's really important tohave that partnership and
collaboration together.
Mike Gilmartin (34:24):
Don't make Greg's head too big. We don't we
don't want that to happen. We'regood. I'm thinking about
everything we're talking aboutnow to get to. It's not metal,
like big picture. But all ofthis is just effort and
intentionality, right? So it iseffort to do the things we're
talking about it's effort to notbe siloed. It takes effort to
(34:45):
collaborate back and forth. Andit's easier not to do it right.
Like the reason a lot ofcompanies don't do it is because
it's just easier to work in yourlittle silo and move on. The
reason companies don't have asafety culture is because it's a
lot easier to Greg's point.
Yeah, we're the hardest but likeI don't really do all the things
in the checks I need to do, butI'm wearing it. Right, it's
effort. And I think if peopleare willing to put in the effort
(35:05):
and their intention about whatthey're doing, it makes a
difference. And that's where Isee the biggest difference in
the burglary companies and keyrisk, and certainly been is,
we're intentional about the waywe're set up. And we're set up
this way for a reason because itdelivers better results, in my
opinion. And but it's not easy,right? Like, in anything, you
put the effort in, you're gonnaget more out of it. And I think
(35:27):
that gets lost. Sometimes it'slike, yeah, you can have all
this stuff there and in place,but if the effort to do it, that
actually makes a difference.
Greg Hamlin (35:36):
I couldn't agree more. And I think, you know,
just even thinking about Dustinon our end with Berkeley
industrial comp, we have our ownsafety folks that are out there
you work with those guys talkeda little bit a little bit about
them. Dustin,
Dustin King (35:49):
yes. From our safety side, I mentioned
earlier, we call it our rampteam and ramp has, they've been
around for several years withthey've got tons of industry
experience, the majority of themwork within the industry that we
actually operate in, whether itbe mining, construction, some
oil and gas and cell tower work,things like that, what we do is
(36:11):
essentially, we like to seeourselves as an extension of
that insured, we really want toget in there, look at their
programs, analyze what's goingon and help them impact that we
could do specific training thatwe do. With us being a smaller
carrier, we can really partnerwith them and help impact their
safety culture and programs thatwe offer unique things that we
(36:31):
can bring to the table, we havea risk management center that we
utilize that we offer to ourinsurance at no cost. And this
is a program that essentiallycan do both training from an HR
perspective, HR is type system,as well as if it's a smaller
insurer that doesn't have asafety program that needs to
(36:52):
create a full safety program, wecan help partner with them on
that as well. So it's kind of aunique process that we can do.
And I can't thank my guysenough. They're really great at
their jobs and just reallypassionate about what they did.
Greg Hamlin (37:08):
So Mike, you know, on your edit key risk, your we
obviously our company solvedifferent problems in the
marketplace. So we're really inthe high hazard area. I know you
build similar partnerships withthe insurance and agents you
work with. Talk to us a littlebit about that, Mike? Yeah,
Mike Gilmartin (37:24):
I mean, it's, it's it's fairly similar to what
you guys were describing. Imean, historically, we've always
been a company that, that we'lllook at the companies with
higher e mods. And our thing is,we want to help you bring that
down, right, like we have groupsin place. So we have a risk
management team as well, that'smade up of loss control folks.
And then client serviceexecutives. And the plan is, I
love the way you said it to bean extension of the insured and
(37:46):
work with them throughout theyear to make sure they're
implementing the things theyneed to implement just to get a
better result. And so we're alot more hands on when it comes
to the service level and whatwe're, we're willing to offer
folks and so I think that's, butthat's huge, right? I think you
go back to those risk managementfolks have meetings with the
underwriters, they have meetingswith claims to say, how are we
doing with this insured? What'sgoing on? Are they reporting
(38:08):
claims timely? Hey, are theresome injuries or some trends we
need to look at and go out anddo some training for or work
with them on how they can set uptheir their manufacturing plant
in a safer way? So it's similar,you guys, we don't do as much of
that scary high hazard stuff.
But we look for theopportunities of the folks that
want to do the right thing andare interested in doing the
right thing. And that's who wepartner best with, because we're
(38:29):
going to be hands on, and wewant you to get a better result.
So that's awesome.
Greg Hamlin (38:36):
Well, I you know, I just appreciate both you guys
being on this episode. I thinkthis is a really important one,
I can't believe it's been twoyears that we've been doing a
Justin, we haven't covered thistopic, which I think will be
really helpful for both folks onthe claim side, even those that
are vendors that might beinvolved in the process to
understand what an e mod is andhow all this stuff plays
(38:57):
together to work. The one.
Mike Gilmartin (39:00):
One final question, sir, yep, go for it.
I'm very passionate about thistopic. Sorry, as I said, so
you're you are the claims guy,right. And I think you and I've
talked on previous podcastsabout how games folks at times
can get very involved in thetasks that they're doing, and
not see how that affects the bigpicture. How do you is the guy
that runs the claims group, getthe message that what they're
(39:22):
doing on a day to day basisaffects the mod effects like how
do you how do you get them inthat mindset in that culture of
what you do makes a difference.
And it plays in all the biggerthings we're talking about?
Greg Hamlin (39:33):
That is great, great question. And I don't know
that there's a silver bullet,but I think it involves, again,
what you talked about earlierabout effort. You know, it's the
little things we right nowyesterday, I spent two hours of
my day meeting with adjustersthat have one to two years doing
a mentorship program, talkingabout how can you move the
(39:54):
needle at your desk at yourlevel. Now, I don't know how
many VPS are taking title fromtheir desk to spend time like
that with folks, and I'm nottrying to pat myself on the
back. But it the reason youdon't is it takes time. We're
all busy. So I think it'sprioritizing and deciding that
the people matter, they have tounderstand how what they're
doing day to day connects toeverything else. I also think
(40:17):
getting them out of the office.
So they get a chance to eithermeet with an insured, or come to
meet an agency to see how thosethings can act really, really
helps. You know, we have one ofour adjusters, we sent to
Vermont to meet with one of ourlarge insurance out there. And
he came back and he's like, wow,now I understand how this injury
happens, because I've seen themachinery that they're using. So
(40:39):
when they say I got hurt doingXYZ, I know what that is now.
And that's a challenge whenyou're staying in the office all
day long. So I think any of thethings we can do to help connect
the dots really matter. Butagain, going back to what you
said earlier, I think it'seffort, and it takes a lot of
intention to do it. Because thedefault setting is to roll
through your day to day followyour handbook and process the
(41:01):
claim. So
Mike Gilmartin (41:04):
that's great.
Sorry to throw a curveball atyou. I just figured it was a
good segue to that.
Greg Hamlin (41:08):
No, I'm glad you asked. I think it's a really,
really important. And again,it's one of the things that
attracted me to thisorganization, from others that
I've worked for is I felt likethere, the opportunities are
here. And the support is here todo those things. And I don't
know that I can say that inevery place along my journey. So
kudos to the Berkeley companiesfor doing that. Dustin, as we
(41:28):
wrap up this episode, one of thethings I've wanted to do this
year, is again, I'm just areally big proponent of putting
positive vibes out there in theuniverse. I felt like Karma can
be a good thing. So one of thethings I wanted to end each
episode with this year, isasking each of the people that
we had on the podcast, somethingthat they're grateful for. So I
know for you Dustin, there's alot lot that you have in your
(41:51):
life. So I just wanted to ask,pose that question to you.
What's something you're gratefulfor this year? Dustin? Yeah, so
Dustin King (41:57):
great question.
Honestly, I never even imaginedI'd be in the position. I'm in
currently and able to impact somany lives. And you mentioned
positivity does actually onStrengthsFinder. That's one of
my top attributes. For me, justbeing able to positively impact
both of my teams from the rampperspective and underwriting and
being able to make people'slives better. So that's really
(42:20):
the most important part of it.
Greg Hamlin (42:23):
I think that's what leadership is all about really,
is if you're doing it right,other people's lives get better.
So at least that's the hope.
Well, I want to thank you bothfor being on this episode. And
remember, our remind ourlisteners our motto to do right
think differently. And don'tforget to care. And with that,
we'll end up this episode. Wehope you join us for future
(42:45):
episodes that aired every twoweeks on Monday. And don't
forget to follow us on our blog,which you can find on our
website at Berkley industrialcalm. Thanks, everybody. And so
long
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