#10 Frank Chan - Coloring San Francisco's Streets with "Run Art", Bliss of Running Later in Life & Hacks to Train in a Wholesome Way - Ageless Athlete - Stories and Secrets of Adventure Sports Icons

Episode Transcript
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Kush (00:05):
Hi friends.
Welcome back to the agelessathlete podcast, where we tap
into stories and secrets ofhigh-performing outdoor
athletes.
This is Kush.
your host from my corner in SanFrancisco.

Yeti Stereo Microphon (00:19):
Sometimes you get lucky and get to speak
to it.
Distinctively unique athlete.
Who breaks the ground onhigh-performance combined with
radical self-expression.

Kush (00:31):
Today we have Frank Chan.
A 51 year old.
Marathon runner from NorthernCalifornia who manages to
combine high performancerunning.
With run art.

Yeti Stereo Microphone (00:42):
This involves outlining complex
designs.
On a map by running specificroutes.
And creating intricate, stillart.
With the ships that have beenoutlined.
Why logging hundreds of milesacross the city.
Frank has managed to draw somegorgeous works of art, including

(01:03):
tributes to rockstars.
To his mom.
As well as animals.
Food groups.
And even the statue of Liberty.

Yeti Stereo Microphone-5 (01:13):
How to describe orally.
Of course.
We will provide Frank'sInstagram, et cetera for you to
see the designs themselves, butimagine large city blocks and an
entire neighborhoods.
Carved into intricate shapes anddesigns.
That is run art.

Kush (01:34):
Frank is no slouch when it comes to the actual running
either.
As an MIT engineer, Dernbicycling advocate.
Frank started running only a fewyears ago, late at the age of
45.
But he has already run over 13marathons.
He has been consistentlyimproving with each run and is

(01:57):
closing in on the fabled three.
Three hour mark.
In the sport where the elitescarefully plan each day and each
meal.
He has a refreshingly wholesomeapproach to training.
Why he's still intensely focusedon performance.
He manages to combine with lifeoutside of running.
Such as with supporting localcauses.

Yeti Stereo Microphone-7 (02:19):
And also volunteering, participating
and mentoring with werunsf andrun365sf.
amongst others.

Kush (02:28):
Thank you Diana for introing me to Frank and for
expanding my perspective on whatit means to be an elite outdoor
athlete.
Excited to dive into Frank'sunique pursuit.
And learn how intellectualrigors.
Planning and spontaneityconverge and his pursuit of run

(02:49):
art.
Know anybody else who mayinspire you and others on the
show?
Send me a note atkush@agelessathlete.co.
Or DM.
On social media.
Without further ado.
Here.
We go.
Hey, Frank.

Frank (03:10):
How are you doing?

Kush (03:11):
Good to see you in person.
please tell us a little bitabout, where you are right now.
How old are you and, what didyou have for breakfast?

Frank (03:21):
Oh wow.
Good question.
my name is Frank Chan.
I live here in San Francisco inthe Russian Hill neighborhood,
just a little bit west ofChinatown.
I'm 51.
I'm sure we'll talk about itmore, but, I used to bicycle a
lot and now a lot of timerunning.
did I eat for breakfast thismorning?
I had some oatmeal, just somedried fruit.
Pretty boring, some proteinpowder.

(03:43):
I think you are asking me aboutnutrition.
so I usually have that everyday.
oh.
And I've, one, one thing I dowith my oatmeal, I do sprinkle
in a little bit of cayennepowder just to spice it up.
It's like coffee, but it justgives a little kick.

Kush (03:57):
That sounds like a delicious and a nutritious,
breakfast and a cayenne pepper.
that's, we'll have to come backto that one.
Yes.
That's, that's great actually, Ihad something similar.
I usually have a steel cut oatsthing a few a week, and I did
something different.
I, I did that and I, but I bakedthat into a muffin.

(04:19):
I added some cacao powder andsome banana.
you tired, get tired of eatingthe same, mush every day.
So I made that into a bakedtreat.

Frank (04:27):
Yeah.
I'm usually not one to mixthese, the sweet and savory, but
in that case, the spice usuallyassociated with savory, works
well with the sweets.

Kush (04:37):
we happen to live in a city full of, Geeky gourmet
chefs and, it's not unusual tosee flavors being experimented
with.
And yes, the, the spicy, I likethose, those Mexican hot
chocolate kind of things myself.

Frank (04:52):
yes.
No, definitely.

Kush (04:53):
very tasty.
We jump right into it.
please tell us a little bitabout, your running

Frank (04:59):
sure.
like I said, I, at least growingup, I had more of a background
in, let's say bicycling, just asa commuter.
I've only raced like one bicyclerace in my life, and it was less
than an hour, so it was clearlywasn't that impressive an
effort.
I used to work, at the SanFrancisco Bicycle Coalition, a
nonprofit promoting the bicyclefor everyday transportation.

(05:19):
And Susan, who was her name, mycolleague at the time was
running the San FranciscoMarathon in 2017.
And I was just inspired by herwhole journey of building up the
mileage, eventually tapering,getting ready for the race and
just trying to, following her onthat day of, I didn't actually
see her in person, but I justfollowed online.
And then I heard about how shedid afterwards.

(05:40):
And so inspired by that, I justran into work, the week after
and it was two miles.
And if you're not used torunning two miles is.
You might as well have runacross the country.
I felt horrible.
I immediately got to work, waspanting, probably sweating a
little bit too much, butsomething with me resonated.
and I think it's that one of thethings about running, I think

(06:01):
that's been fascinating is it'sall been found money.
I didn't run cross country ortrack in high school or college.
And so someone once said thatpeople have a lifetime amount of
miles in them.
And so one of the things that'sbeen nice for me is that it's
all new.
Even if I certainly don'trecover as well as, let's say I
was back in my twenties orthirties, like most runners, all

(06:24):
those early days are prs comeeasy and I'm trying to have to
figure it out now that I've beenrunning a little bit longer how
to get better.
And it gets harder of course, aswe're not as, young as we used
to be.
But, I like that it's a newchapter, relatively late in
life.

Kush (06:38):
Interesting thing you said about, a certain number of life
miles and, many people who aregifted runners, they might have
started at a very young age,and, and you started later in
life.
Do you think that starting latergives you any other kind of
advantage be besides the factthat, you haven't exhausted

(06:59):
your, lifetime miles yet?

Frank (07:01):
Yeah.
I, there's a few, I think, Iobviously wonder, geez, if I'm
doing this now, how fast could Ihave run back in my twenties or
thirties?
Certainly, I do wonder aboutthat.
But there, there's someadvantages to now.
I think there's a patience thatyou have, especially for long
distance running where.
You're a little bit better aboutnot starting out too hard, just

(07:22):
because you can't start out toohard.
I just don't have a five minutemile in me ever, and I'm at
peace with that.
maybe I'll try, to get that alittle bit faster.
and I think the, specificallywith running it really rewards a
consistency.
Like no individual workout isgonna transform your body.
So it's about how can you setyourself up to go after, get out

(07:45):
there day after day, week afterweek, month after month.
And so I think perspective,something you associate with
being older, not necessarilyeveryone, but, that, that's an
advantage too.
And maybe it's also being in aposition in life where, I've
been lucky to be living in SanFrancisco for a while.
I know the paths.
Let's say And yeah, that you canlater on in life pick up a new

(08:08):
hobby and really embrace it.

Kush (08:10):
I think that is certainly, an aspect that is inspiring.
I.
About what you're doing becausemany of us, we chance upon
something like this maybe couldbe picking up a musical
instrument.
talking of which I startedplaying the Congress a couple of
years ago and I realized that, Ihave this beginner's enthusiasm
about it that maybe if I startedmuch younger, I probably would

(08:33):
not have appreciated.
Frank, you are known to fuse artand running and we will get into
that in a second.
Really excited to hear you speakon that.
But just on the subject of purerunning itself, can you give us
an idea of, what kind of runningdo you actually do and any

(08:56):
running accomplishments that,you're particularly proud of?

Frank (08:59):
Sure.
perhaps I'm unlike some of theother guests that we've had on
here.
I'm certainly not an eliterunner.
I think I'm doing like, okay.
For my age, that's the way Ilike to say.
perhaps like in local races, I.
They grade you by age group, sothey bucket you.
And I'd like to say, I'd like totry to get on the age group,
leaderboard of the podium.
I don't think I'm gonna win manyage groups, so I think I'm doing

(09:21):
okay.
in terms of accomplishments orwhere I generally find myself, I
do a lot of local race roadraces.
I haven't done as much trailjust because of where we are.
I just run where I happen to be,which is in a metropolis.
So I tend to spend a lot of timeon the road.
I have heard that most people ornot, I shouldn't say most
people, but there are people whoeventually when they're, have

(09:45):
had their time on the road, theyswitched to the trail and
there's a different mentalityand a different ethos to trail.
And I totally appreciate that.
I don't do it as much, but I doget over to, let's say the Marin
Headlands or even in Mount Sutroin the middle of San Francisco.
I do enjoy that too.
I've done, let's say, so afterbeing inspired to run, by my
former coworker.

(10:06):
The first thing I signed up was,let's say the Kaiser half
marathon.
That was in 2018 and I did twohalves.
And then for some reason, thisis where I did not have that
discipline.
I just decided, oh yeah, I'mready for the full marathon.
just after two halves.
And that was the first marathonI ran, the San Francisco, 2018
version.
I've since done 13, I thinkmarathons, doing reasonably, I

(10:31):
think, I don't think anythingsuper spectacular, but it's been
a goal to chip in to the lowthree hour range.
so I think now I'm quite contentto just try to chip away a
minute, at a minute, at a time.
not the days of massive gainsmay be behind me, but I think I

(10:52):
continue to, find littleoptimizations.

Kush (10:55):
Excellent.
Yeah.
Chipping away at, at, one's,performance one day at a time.
there's nothing like, likesuccess, breed success and
progress is wording.
Now getting into the subjectthat I'm really excited to talk
about, which is, which is runart.
I didn't know something likethis existed.

(11:16):
And, when our common friend,Diana first told me about you
and I had to go.
Back and look at, your websiteand your Strava profile.
I was, yeah, I was just floored.
I had not seen, that kind ofstuff on the streets for San
Francisco.
So could you describe, what isrun art?

Frank (11:34):
Sure.
so I'm certainly not the onlyperson doing this.
In fact, my friend Lenny Mon,he's certainly a local legend in
this, but you'll find a few ofthese running geeks in every
city or every country, as ifrunning or cycling, you can, I
guess you can bike the samepaths too, as if running or
cycling weren't niche enough.
There is this sub niche or subgenre of running, we call run

(11:57):
art, and it basically involvestracing a certain pattern
through the streets or paths orparks or wherever, staircases
even where, wherever you can cutthrough, a single line.
So it's like drawing a line, butyou can't pick up your pen and
you just try to make as.
Artistic or as long as a path asyou can.

(12:19):
And this is what usually donewith a GPS device.
So you either you have a watchor you, I guess you could even
record it on your phone also.
the watches seem to be a littlebit better.
and for the most part, this isusually done in a day though a
few of us nerds have done sortof multi-day efforts where
effectively you draw, let's sayhalf your drawing, you pause, go

(12:42):
home, take a shower, eatsomething, the next day
hopefully charge the watch toyou.
Next day you go back out thereto where you left off and resume
and you pick up.
And that's how you do like amulti-day effort.
gotta make sure you don't loseit on your watch.
some real nerds like me wearmultiple watches just to make
sure you record, this effortthat you've spent hours

(13:04):
designing, much less running.
so I, they don't have to besuper long efforts.
in fact, we can get into how ourmutual friend, we coax Diana
into doing a five mile run artfor our local weekly run group.
but efforts can be 20, 30 to 40miles.
And I'd say the longer or thebigger your run art is, the more

(13:27):
you eliminate the jaggies fromthe And the more you're your
design is resistant to error.
So let's say if you've missed ablock, ah, when you're won over,
it doesn't matter if yourdrawing is that big.
If it covers the entire, let'ssay city of San Francisco, no
one's gonna notice if you wentdown 23rd instead of 25th or
something like that.

Kush (13:48):
Got it.
No, that makes sense.
Over, yeah.
the longer, A piece of art.
the longer run is, or the longeranything really is, the more you
can, the law of averages takes.

Frank (13:59):
and your design can be more intricate.
one of the challenges is, youcan't run through a building but
you'd like to, anytime you havea diagonal line going through a
street grid, you're pretty muchgoing up, down, up and over, up
left up, left, let's say in astaircase pattern.
But the more you zoom out, themore that approaches a diagonal

(14:20):
line.

Kush (14:20):
makes sense.
Yeah, no, it absolutely makessense.
couple of dumb questions

Frank (14:24):
sure, sure.

Kush (14:24):
since I'm new to this.
are you drawing something onpaper first and that somehow
gets transferred onto real map?
Like how does this evolve?

Frank (14:34):
Yeah, I would definitely not recommend doing this on the
fly or designing this on thefly.
In almost all cases, you'd wantto plan out how you'd want your
run art to look.
So I'd say my general processis, first you want a sense of
like how long or how big youwant this to be.
So let's just say for you andme, on the eastern side of San

(14:56):
Francisco, if we were toconstrain it to, let's say the
northeast or downtown quadrant,instead of San Francisco being
seven by seven, it'd be like,let's say three by three miles.
So that'll give you a sense of,if you were to draw a big
circle, okay, that'd be aboutlike, six or seven miles, who
knows?
Within the down, within thedowntown portion.
so the first thing you wanna getis a sense of scale, and you

(15:18):
have a certain design that youhave in mind.
And I think the first thing isto take that design.
Which may have differentshadings or colors and simplify
it down to black and white lineart, right?
Just the lines.
And that may mean eliminatingsome details that come out
better when you're actuallydrawing, like with the pen and

(15:39):
pa, pen or color, andsimplifying it.
And then you at least visuallyor actually overlay it onto a
map and see where logisticallyit could go.
So obviously you don't want, youcan't run in the ocean, or maybe
you can and you switch over toswimming.
but generally you wanna avoidwater bodies of water freeways
where there's no, unless there'san underpass or overpass,

(16:00):
there's some areas of thePresidio where it's let's say,
or Golden Gate Park where it maybe unintuitive to get through
where or may be fenced off.
I have had to climb a fence ortwo just to make sure the line
goes through in some very rarecases.
But you generally wanna make it.
Where is the least runable?
So I'd say the first things tothink about are the scaling and
the positioning.
and then if you really want, oneof the more advanced things is

(16:22):
think about is like, are therekey elements of your design,
let's say the eyes where youreally wanna make sure those are
runnable and drawable?
So I've had sometimes eyes of,let's say aerial or Little
Mermaid where I'm effectivelyjust like you went on a piece of
paper, if you're going around incircles to circle the eye where
you're running around in circleson the street and you wanna make

(16:45):
sure it's a large enough areawhere a key element, your design
can be executed.
so sometimes I've positionedsomething where I wanna freehand
it in the middle of a park justso I can run all over the lawn
and not be constrained byanything else.
But that's more of a nichething.
I'd say the biggest things firstare just to get the scale and
the position right, where it'sactually doable.

Kush (17:07):
Makes sense.
And I think maybe peoplelistening if they wanted to get
started, I think you've givenpeople an idea of how they start
with the drawing on, let's say apiece of paper and then they
tried to, overlay that into,onto a map and then.
When it comes to executing it,so now you have it, and then do

(17:29):
you take that map that you'vedrawn?
Do you somehow import that intoStrava?
And then as you're running, areyou like looking at your watch
at the map and having it spitout directions?

Frank (17:41):
Yep.
a bunch of different ways to cutthis and they're all correct.
Whatever works best for theperson.
I generally do, so one of thethings I should have backed up,
you should have a general ideaof how long it's gonna be.
Otherwise you'll be out thereforever.
And with Straw or MapMyRun orGarmin or a lot of those.
You can begin to sketch out theroot and see how long it takes.

(18:02):
So that's, I'd at least do that.
I've done run art where I'vejust had the tracing and I don't
actually know how long it is.
And that's, it's fine if you're,used to winging it, but I
wouldn't recommend it if, if youwere starting from scratch.
So with any of the online, toolsfor drawing the route, yes, you
can either sync it to yourdevice.
I happen to print it out too'cause I just find it easier or

(18:26):
a little bit more convenient tojust look at a piece of paper.
but you can certainly have youron your watch.
I have found that, and thiswon't matter until, unless
people are really doingsomething intricate, but like
some devices can have a limit onhow many points are in your
route.
So I, I have an old garment,unfortunately it limits me to 50

(18:47):
Wayfair way points.
And a lot of these run art.
have more than 50 points inthem.
So it says limit, exceeded,navigate on your own from here.
it's something to test out.
And so I think anyone interestedin doing this should probably
start with something simplefirst.
Something achievable in an houror two, let's say, and then
proceed from there.

(19:07):
But, it, whatever works for you.
However you would navigate anyroute.
there is a run Go app.
I don't, there's probably othersimilar ones, but, it'll bark
the directions in headphones orif you're listening on a phone,
so you can turn, turn left orturn right, but even then,
something like that, it tends totell you a little too late.
So I'll be halfway through anintersection, maybe to the other

(19:29):
side, and it says, turn so you,so it, I think if you have in
your own sense of where thedesign is going, I.
That's always best, and notblindly rely on a device.
and I to think sometimes one ofthe things I like to do is
pretend I'm like this bird up inthe air.
And you should always have asense of where you are in the

(19:49):
art and what direction.
I know that's, directions.
It's not, not everyone has thesame proficiency with that.
I totally get it.
But you should always, if youwere drawing, let's say
something, knowing which way'snorth, and not you, I don't want
anyone to be turned around tothe point where they've lost
where their pen is, so to speak.

Kush (20:08):
Sure.
There is one other, part of therun you run our journey that I
wanted to quickly, touch on,which is I think you drew
something which you'reparticularly known for or
perhaps, take pride in, which issomething related to your

(20:28):
mother.

Frank (20:29):
Oh yes.
Okay.

Kush (20:31):
What is that all about?

Frank (20:33):
Yeah.
as we mentioned, I don't havemuch of a running history, but I
was going through my oldphotographs with my mom, or just
my childhood.
And there's this photo of my momhelping me or teaching me how to
tie my shoes when I was, let'ssay, three or four.
And so this is back in theseventies or eighties.
I forgot what.
Yeah, definitely.
I should say definitely in theseventies.

(20:54):
so she's tying my shoes.
And so for Mother's Day, a fewyears ago, and this was over
three days, so this was one ofthese, multi-day sagas.
I took that old photograph,simplified it down to line art.
I.
In other words, the, from a oldcolor photograph, converted it
to line art, eliminated somedetails, and it turned out to be

(21:14):
the 60 or 70 mile run.
it did over three days.
it was just a tribute to herthat she taught me how to tie my
shoes.
I don't know if she appreciatedit that much.
She was all, she was ah, that'snice and typical Asian, tiger,
Asian mom just was like,whatever.
but I think she at leastrecognized that yes, the drawing
looked something like the photo.

(21:35):
Maybe that's as much of begbegrudging acknowledgement as I
got.

Kush (21:39):
I will relate to that bit about Asian mothers, which is, I
think, that old, adage that it'sall about the thought.
it doesn't matter what I give mymom for Mother's Day or another
anniversary, or I think she's,honestly, yeah, she wouldn't
care as long as I justremembered and, appreciated her

(22:01):
of what I did.
But I think your gift certainlytakes the cake on uniqueness.

Frank (22:07):
yeah.
No, thank you.
I'd like to think so.

Kush (22:10):
and Frank, before we close out this chat from Runner, where
can I, you have a really, lovelywebsite.
Is that the best place to, to,discover your runner?

Frank (22:18):
a couple of different, I'll give you a couple different
handles.
Archy, CHAN, just my last name,con, concatenated with, anarchy,
archy.com has either somephotographs and some of the,
sort of the highlights ofrunning.
they can either go to I think onArchy also on most social media
profiles.
So let's say like Instagram,it's there mixed in with other

(22:40):
personal stuff.
But, yeah, I'd say either ofthose two.

Kush (22:43):
Fantastic.
We'll have to put those linksinto our show notes.
taking a step back, when I thinkof running in San Francisco and
I tell people that San Franciscois a world class running
destination, usually I thinkabout, running through.
The parks running through thehills, running by the water,

(23:04):
maybe crossing the bridge.
It had not struck me until thento recommend running through the
streets of San Francisco.

Frank (23:12):
Yep,

Kush (23:13):
So if somebody was to visit San Francisco and was to
look, was to was to inquire oflet's say a more, indie
perspective on best runningstreets or running areas, where
would you tell them to go?

Frank (23:25):
No, it's, I think that was a, that's a fair opinion.
I.
We can get into it more.
But during the pandemic, one ofmy little pandemic projects was
to, with all races beingcanceled, was to run every
single street in San Francisco.
So that's what I did over, let'ssay like 2020.
no, the one of the takeaway, itwas a great experience.
I certainly saw a lot.
The bulk of it was done over,let's say three months, the

(23:47):
summer.
I think where people end uprunning it, it is natural that
it is the best.
These are the best places torun.
that said, I think venturing offthe paths has a couple of
benefits.
where people tends to run isflatter, and I get it.
it, it takes more work to go uphills and there are a lot of
them in San Francisco, but I dothink there's a certain reward

(24:10):
to going up those hills.
You definitely, it definitelybenefits your training.
one of the indie things I liketo try to point out is you get
to know.
Every neighborhood much betterwhen you run them.
So a lot of the living in theNortheast, I would say I ran the
southern and the western partsof San Francisco less than

(24:31):
normal, so it was a good excuseto go out to them.
I think every neighborhood, forthe most part has, its like some
commercial activity.
So it was nice to go out to,let's say the Excelsior and
learn about the littlecommercial stretches

Kush (24:46):
Mm-Hmm.

Frank (24:47):
let's say portal, the Portola, the San Bruno Ave.
So let's say just a little bitsouth of you.
so it was a good excuse to get,to really get to know every
single neighborhood, and findout, oh, there's a nice little
store here, or I haven't triedthis restaurant.

Kush (25:02):
I do a bit of cycling and there are these cycling clubs
and, a lot of these cyclingclubs often revolve around,
finishing, a ride at a bakeryand getting a,

Frank (25:14):
yeah,

Kush (25:15):
and wondering, since you mentioned commercial activity
and you mentioned restaurants,do you ever do that?
Which is which is go anddiscover, A big house or
something similar and, use theirproducts to actually even fuel,
the rest of that run.

Frank (25:28):
oh, That's pretty much, my, my whole existence.
if it's not a workout where I'mdoing like intervals or repeats,
I'm usually running to somerestaurant, eating and then
running back.
Or in some cases, if it'scumbersome, or if it's suits the
condition, I will take it outand carry it back as I'm
running.

(25:49):
I have been busted running witha pizza box down Market Street.
no, I love it.
I love trying out newrestaurants that way.
it was also something I hadalready been doing it, but
especially motivated during thepandemic when all restaurants
were just doing takeout, makingsure I was still supporting
them.
So I'd run to a restaurant ortakeout and either sit on the

(26:10):
sidewalk and eat it or, or carryit back.

Kush (26:13):
Got it.
Got it.
Looking at your, at your life alittle bit, I believe you have a
degree from MITI just looked atyour LinkedIn

Frank (26:25):
Oh yeah.

Kush (26:26):
and, you also worked at the BI Coalition, which, it's
one of the organizations Isupport and I admire because,
uh, because it helps our streetsbecome more rideable for, for
commuters and riders like me.
Are you able to use your degreeand what you do for work every

(26:46):
day?
Does that somehow help youbalance out your running?

Frank (26:49):
I think it does.
I'll mention a couple ofdifferent ways.
usually in a race they tell youto not, overlook.
They ask you to limit yourcognitive load, right?
oh, do the first half, just zoneout and don't even think about
it.
Or, and I get why people saythat.
So that you could focus, on thelater half or save yourself some
energy.
I don't mind that as much.
in races, I will generally havethe pay span and I'll be, and I,

(27:13):
it's acknowledged.
It gets really hard to do.
Math at the end of a race, whenyou're at like mile 22 to 23 or
24, you're trying to think, am Igonna make a certain goal?
it's hard.
Your brain is just mashedpotatoes.
but I think there's sometraining, in that I like
applying math and knowing, oh,I'm 20 seconds behind, or I'm 15
seconds ahead of a certain goal.

(27:34):
one that's adjusted over theterrain of a race.
So I think getting used tocognitive load in it.
That's another thing about therun art too, where, it's nice to
have the, say a 20 mile long runwhere you're just doing, going
down the Golden Gate Park andcoming back and you can zone
out.
I totally understand why peoplewanna zone out on the runs.

(27:54):
in the run, you're, you can'tzone out for 2, 3, 4, 5, 6,
whatever, however many hours yougotta be locked in.
You gotta know where you'regoing.
You zone out, you're screwing upthe artwork.
I like to think there's sometraining there.
dunno how practical it is.
It may be just I don't know.
It might not be the most usefulthing in the world, but it's
useful for run art to be able tomentally keep attention on

(28:18):
something where every blockmatters, right?
You really can't be, let's sayit takes you roughly a minute to
run a block.
You really can't zone out formore than a minute.
Unless, there's this longstretch and that's a hard thing.
I've certainly, in fact, maybethe, your audience will
appreciate this.
I haven't really made any majormistakes on like solo long run
art.

(28:38):
I've made some mistakes whereI'm leading a group doing a
short piece because I'll betalking to someone that's oh
crap, we just missed a turn backthere.
And so it ha it happens or Ipaused and I forgot to resume.
Whereas if I'm just solo doingthis for hours, I'll tend to be
much more locked in.
But it's the yammering orsomeone asking me some questions
that we're talking about whatwe're doing tomorrow.

(29:00):
We did yesterday.
That'll totally throw me off.
And then the next thing we know,we've screwed up our magic run
art.

Kush (29:05):
Frank, that is amazing.
when I asked that question, Idid not, anticipate this
trajectory and, this combinationof running and, And
intellectual, exercise issomething that I think many
runners don't always get toexperience because you're right
with running, cycling in manyendurance sports, I think there

(29:27):
is a lot of emphasis on unzoning out, which is, just put
one step in front of the otherand yeah, you're running down,
running up a hill and it's,whatever, five miles long.
And you may listen to music andagain, quote unquote tap out.
But in this case, you have to beso aware of your surroundings
and so aware of turns you haveto make.

(29:48):
And running around city blocksis, again so distinct than
running down like one longendless rail.

Frank (29:53):
Yeah.
Yep.

Kush (29:54):
And you have to say sharp.
And the other thing I would, Iwas gonna say, and maybe this is
also a question in, when you,let's say you are.
Drawing a painting and somethinggoes wrong in some situations,
all of them, you get a chanceto, to cover up that error and,
draw on it.
But I think when you'rerecording this thing in Strava,
if you do make a big, a badmistake, you can't actually
erase that.

Frank (30:14):
no, you, you can't, or it's considered bad form to go
and edit the stuff afterwards.
no.
So there's a few cases wherewhen I've been a block off, I'll
have to kind of replan and I'vesat there and paused and then
get out the pen that I have andthen just retrace on my paper
map.
let me shift everything over,right?
So that it's, let's say I wasdoing the stair step pattern or

(30:34):
diagonal pattern, and I, let'ssay, blew it and missed a block.
it's usually recoverable if younotice it soon enough and you
have enough runway where okay,the curve will just go a little
farther out, but you wanna do itstill as smoothly as you can.
yeah, no, you do have to, it, ithappens.
and largely if you still haveenough streets to work with, you

(30:57):
can make it good enough.
there.
There's also enough justrandomness in GPS, especially if
you're a design, and I'velearned to avoid the financial
districts because of all thetowers, but you could run it
perfectly and your line will bejagged as it goes down
California street or Ker orMontgomery, just because that's
the nature of things.
So I would say as a tip, Iwouldn't make any critical part,

(31:21):
piece of run art go through thefinancial district or anything
with a lot of towers if you canavoid it.
But sometimes like where our rungroup meets on Wednesdays,
that's where we start.
that's part of the randomness ofit.

Kush (31:33):
Absolutely.
Yeah.
I guess note, note to aspiringrun Art Wannabes.
Avoid, avoid, financialdistricts and tall towers.

Frank (31:41):
Yeah.

Kush (31:41):
Did you play any sports growing up or other athletics
and just trying to gauge,whether you were naturally
gifted, to evolve as a runner.

Frank (31:53):
I think I was like, reasonable.
It was part of my, let's say,assimilation to the country
where I would, I had one ofthose, rebound nets.
So this is this is, it is the BAfor baseball where you throw it
against the, if there's a littlestrike zone and then it bounces
back.
And so I, I remember justendless hours in my backyard
throwing it and catching theball that way.

(32:13):
in high school, my letter was inbadminton.
If it can be believed.
I badminton is actually reallycompetitive in the Bay Area.
but I, it's not just a, law andpicnic sport maybe elsewhere.
and I would play with friends,play basketball on local courts,
but I nothing serious.
I.
You mentioned the degrees.

(32:34):
I think growing up, and as thisgoes back to our Asian parents,
I was much more the athlete thanthe athlete.
and I think that's why I'mpursuing this so aggressively
now, maybe out of, a little bitof, I don't wanna say revenge,
but just showing my mom, I couldhave been an athlete too,
athlete if you just let me.
I don't have any tales of herdropping me off at Little League
or anything because I didn'tplay or I didn't do those

(32:56):
typical things.
So I, I think part of myzealotry for running now is
making up for lost time.
but it's a way to say, no, Ireally could have done it all.
Mom.

Kush (33:05):
Yeah, it's, really fascinating how our upbringing
and, experiences we have growingup.
there are things that

Frank (33:13):
Yeah,

Kush (33:13):
perhaps don't surface back then, but then come back and
bite us bite us full force.
And I know this is part of myevolution as an outer athlete,
which is, I was not particularlygifted

Frank (33:24):
I see.

Kush (33:25):
as a soccer player or as a cross country runner, in my
class.
And I think that could havesomething to do with my zealotry
in pursuing these things today,which is maybe there's some
hidden need to prove myself.

Frank (33:37):
Yeah.
no, that was a, I'll justmention one tip.
'cause you mentioned MIT lastyear was the first year I did
the Boston Marathon after tryingto qualify for some time.
And it was also the first time Iwent back to campus.
I think I had been by Boston fora business trip or two, but I
never spent any serious time inBoston, Cambridge after all
those years.

(33:58):
and it all came together, inboth cases, whether it be the
marathon or MIT, it was.
A place that like, oh God, it'sso good to get in.
And I am very lucky to be ableto have done both, but you're
representing your family or yourfriends from back home.
They're following you on yourjourney of how you do there.
You get there and when you towthe line on the corral, it's

(34:18):
like everybody is supposed to bethe best of the best.
in the end, we're all just hobbyjoggers.
None of us are Olympians.
We're all just weekend warriortypes, right?
Not, we're all just doing thisrecreationally, but there is
this buildup to like, oh, thisis supposed to be a thing to
aspire to.
So I appreciated it for that andI think it, it, scratched this

(34:39):
issue of this is a little bitof, I, maybe I would consider
myself like lowkey competitive.
I'm not like raging to outruneverybody, but I want to do
well, or at least I wannarepresent my friends and family
from home and, not embarrassmyself, let's say on the course.

Kush (34:53):
sure.
Getting a little bit into Frankon the maintenance and the
effort it takes to keep youperforming as a, relatively high
end runner.
Running long runs, takesdiscipline, takes time.

Frank (35:11):
yep.

Kush (35:12):
What is your daily or maybe your weekly schedule, how
do you, what time, how do youorganize your life to be able
to, produce

Frank (35:22):
No, it's definitely a challenge.
I'd say, we have our friend incommon, Diana, and with these
run groups, it, I'd say it leansa little younger than us and.
Those kids just rebound or theyare amazing.
They can go a hard effort and gohard again tomorrow.
And I'm just completely wipedout after, I'd say I'm probably
not doing anything, toodifferent from many other

(35:45):
athletes.
I make sure I sleep well.
I try to, I've had to do somestrength training, dovetailing
back to something we talkedabout, earlier in the call.
I'm just patient about notoverextending and just confident
enough that I'd rather go into,let's say a race or even our,
just a long run, a littleundertrained than let's say,

(36:06):
overtrained and broken.
I've certainly been burnedbefore.
It's a challenge every marathoncycle to go in completely clean.
I can't remember a time where bythe time of the start line I
didn't feel a little something,so I.
It's my nature to push myself.
And I just, over the years, beena little bit better about
leaving a little on the table ormaybe for that last repeat, I

(36:27):
really don't need to hammer itand just fight to live another
day and save it for race day.
I do some strength training.
I think it's taken some time tofigure out, what in particular,
challenges I have.
And this is gonna be unique toeveryone, but I'd say let's,
I'll just give an example.
I tend to feel more joint painthan, let's say muscle pain.
so I wouldn't tell it, I don'tnecessarily have a massage gun

(36:49):
because it's not like you takethe massage gun and apply it
right to your joints, right?
it's something you more do formuscles.
So I think there's a learningjourney of figuring out what you
need to do to work for yourself.
I have, I.
Previous to this year, I wouldsay I generally run like, let's
say five days a week.
I had generally taken Monday andFriday off, so I have the

(37:10):
Saturday, Sunday, a little bitof a pause for recovery.
Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday,one of the things I'm trying
this year is running six orseven days a week.
It's going reasonably well sofar, but I am feeling, let's
say, a little bit more beat upthan let's say last year.
So it'll be interesting to seeif this is sustainable.
but even then, those days thatI'm adding tend to be easy days.

(37:33):
So I'm not like doing one morehard workout.
I'm just doing one moreleisurely run to a restaurant,
getting food and coming back.
I'm trying to add inincrementally, another, Cliche
they say, is to try to changeonly one thing at a time.
I'm probably changing more thanone thing at a time, but at
least I'm cognizant of that, oftrying to not scramble up my
routine too much and justchallenge challenging myself, a

(37:55):
little bit each cycle.

Kush (37:57):
Absolutely.
One thing that I findfascinating is, over the last,
couple of decades we've seenthe, maybe the average of the
median age of people who are,um,

Track 1 (38:10):
podiuming at,

Kush (38:11):
you know, some of the most famous endurance events.

Frank (38:14):
Yep,

Kush (38:15):
let's just talk about running for a second and running
people who are winning theseevents, et cetera.
The, I think the, those.
Those ages have trended higherand higher.
Now you people who are, again,breaking records who are a lot
older than the ones who aredoing it.
So have you, do you use some ofthat intelligence?

(38:36):
I'm wondering, do you getinspired by those performers?
Is, are there any secrets or anyways those people have learned
to train to keep excelling intothe later years that maybe
people were not doing two, threedecades ago?

Frank (38:53):
Yeah, I'd like to, I'd like to think so.
there was this curve, if you canimagine it, trying to peak for a
certain race.
you would, let's say, have along recovery period after, like
trying to peak for an absolute,

Kush (39:05):
seminal event versus what I think I'm doing, which is more
just have a general fitnesswhere maybe from my next race
coming up, maybe I won't beabsolutely peeking for it, but.
Then I can sustainably run theweek after or the month after.
so to answer your question, I'mnot exactly sure.
I have noticed that same trendwhere it does seem like people

(39:26):
are excelling later in theiryears.
I'm very conscious of the agingcurve.
'cause when you, let's sayyou're looking at race results
and you're flipping through theage groups, there's definitely
this fall off, so forties tofifties and sixties.

Frank (39:38):
those times, they're different.
I think one of the inspirationsfor me is to milk this last
burst, let's say, of the nextfew years of okay, I can still
do it.
And then maybe I, maybe in five,10 years I'll say, okay, maybe
my best times are beyond me.
But I think the thing that givesme hope and I'd say for people
starting late later, there'salso a little bit of urgency
too.

(39:59):
This provides me of let try todrill within the next few years
and see what I can do.
Before I pass the baton to thenext generation, so to speak.
So it does inspire me.
It does motivate me to see, Istill think my best times are
ahead of me, but I know I won'tbe in, in 10 years, probably
not.

Kush (40:17):
I love that, that, you are certainly your, best
performances are ahead of you.
And just staying on that seguefor a second, your running and
your creativity is aninspiration to others.
Where do you, source yourinspiration?

Frank (40:33):
it's, even though I was just watching, I think many of
us watched the Olympic trialsrecently, and obviously that's a
different level, right?
These people are elite athletesand they've been running their
whole lives.
it's still nice to see, I dofollowing along.
Running as a spectator sport.
I get inspiration from myfriends too.
Diana, our friend in common, shedid her first marathon, at the

(40:53):
end of last year.
And, I and another friend, weactually went up to go cheer.
So we took the train up toSacramento.
and so I, I'd say it goes bothways, right?
Like people entering the sport,you don't need to only be
inspired by, let's say, thepeople at the very top end of
the sport.
I get inspiration from seeingpeople do their first race.

(41:15):
I train.
With the running group, or run365.
It's the training group for theSan Francisco Marathon.
And so every season we'releading people through, let's
say their first marathon ortheir return.
this is the one, unlike those ofus who run multiple races a
year, this is the one event theydo, and then they go into
hibernation over the winter.
I totally get it.
It's totally fine.
but it's inspiring to see whatthey can do.

(41:37):
It's that same sort of hopethat, oh God, this next race,
this may be it for you.
I do invo.
I love that sort of, lotteryscratcher mentality of this
could be it, right?
So you can fool me all the time,right?
and guess what?
It gets harder, right?
Like the second race, you'reprobably pring the 20th.
You're really gonna have to getit right.
I.
and so I appreciate that thesedifferent chapters of these

(42:00):
different phases, everythingfrom that, like as long as you
show up sober and not hungover,you're probably gonna be our to
the, everything needs to line upperfectly for you to pr.
I, I love them just the same andthey're both interesting to me.

Kush (42:14):
Absolutely no, I would agree that, obviously one gets
inspired by the top end, butthen I find inspiration from
people or beginners too, becausethey bring this stoke and this,
humility, like basicallyexpectations are zero.
So I go, I'll take some friends,rock climbing and every climb
that they get on, it's justsome, it's like a new frontier

(42:35):
for them.
And that gets me excited becauseI go out and I'm like, I did so
many routes today or this yearand I'm still not feeling
fulfilled because maybe I didsomething better the year or the
year before that.
But then you go with somebodynew and you're like, oh my God,
I'm going out with these peopleand I'm forgetting why I got
into rock climbing, which is toexperience movement in.

(42:57):
Beautiful places outside, whichis fundamentally what took me
out there.
And now I'm forgetting that andthese people are reminding me of
what a gift that is to be ableto just do that.

Frank (43:10):
I, this is a very normy comparison, but, the, our local
team, the Golden State Warriors,Draymond Green said that,
there's nothing like winningyour first championship.
And the way he, in, the way hefeels that, again, is helping
his younger teammates get theirfirst championship, and that's
how he experiences that again.
So it, again, a contrivedcomparison, but I do appreciate

(43:32):
seeing people go through theirfirst marathon.
It reminds me of what that waslike.
I do enjoy seeing the sort ofrandomness who does well on race
day.
It like, I will silently so thePace group I normally train,
these are a bunch of people whoare right around the four hour
mark.
so it is interesting to see whoon race day actually does it and

(43:52):
doesn't.
and sometimes like you can dothe training, right?
But some people have a certainmentality on race day and they
get it right.
Some people go up too hard andblow up.
it's part of the joy of justseeing how your friends do and
Right.
You have a much more, I'd saycompared to the Warriors where I
don't have any real say in howthey do and they're, they're,
they are, stars that I don'tknow.

(44:13):
These are actual friends that Iknow.
I.
And I'm much more emotionallyinvested in how

Kush (44:18):
sure.
Absolutely.
Yes.

Frank (44:19):
I want the local team to win, but if they win or lose,
it's not like I'm gonna go yellat them afterwards.
Whereas my friends, it's like,what were you doing?
or you can run alongside themand cheer them.
And so see them in kind of theirdark moments of let's say mile
22.
Mile 23.
it's fascinating.

Kush (44:35):
Absolutely no, I wish I had a personal bond with Steph
Curry, but I don't,

Frank (44:39):
Exactly.

Kush (44:40):
stronger bond with the people I trained with every day.

Frank (44:43):
exactly.

Kush (44:44):
so there is more rested

Frank (44:46):
Yeah.

Kush (44:47):
before we wrap up and move to the next, next section.

Frank (44:50):
Sure.

Kush (44:51):
On the topic of, again, routines and maintenance, have
you seen your diet evolve as youhave, grown as a runner?
Any things you do differentlyyou pay attention to?
You mentioned, for example, thatyou have joint pain sometimes,
and what do you do about that?

(45:11):
What do you do to fuel yourselfon race days versus, normal
days?
Anything specific that comes tomind that you think people may
benefit from?

Frank (45:22):
fair question.
I, the one I am, I'm definitelynot a very disciplined eater.
I'm vegetarian, but within thatsearch space, oh, pizza, it's
great.
so I will go to a lot of these.
In fact, my Strava is prettymuch just what restaurant did I
go to today?
so I'd say I pay some attentionto it.
the one thing that may beactually pertinent for people

(45:45):
training to your audience isthere's, I think, huge value in
being able to eat and run andbenefit from that.
I think if you don't get used toconsuming something.
That'll eventually be adetriment to your performance,
unless you're really trying todo the fasted run, or that's a
kind of a very advanced thing.
I don't really even do thatmuch, but I think getting used

(46:05):
to eating real food or justquantities of food and being
able to soldier on is important.
So I admit, I'm one where it'spossible I'm leaving a few
minutes on the table by noteating, by not consulting a
dietician or being strict aboutmy diet.
But it's one of the things I'vejust accepted that, no, I think

(46:26):
I'm just going to eat what Iwanna eat, and I'll accept the
consequences of my training andresults as a result of that.
maybe the takeaway there isthere's some immutables in your
life and if I were, let's say,an aspiring Olympian, yes.
Every aspect of my life mustalign.
I.
For that goal, but I'm okay withit.
And that's part of picking it uplater on in life is okay, I

(46:48):
really care about how I'm doing,but no, I'm gonna go to this
restaurant.
And, if some dieticians wouldsay that this, maybe that donut
isn't the best thing for you,it's ah, I think I'm gonna have
that donut and then I'm gonnarun and it's fine.
I'll be okay.
the body is resilient.
diet could be better.
a lot of things could be better,but I'm happy to support local
restaurants even if it means aminute off my pr, let's say.

Kush (47:11):
Got it.
I would agree that, stayingfueled seems to also work for
me.

Frank (47:17):
Yeah.

Kush (47:18):
And, any reluctance I had

Frank (47:21):
Yeah.

Kush (47:22):
to avoid eating while I'm, doing my sports.
I think, I look back to this oneNetflix documentary.
I don't know if you saw,

Frank (47:33):
Oh,

Kush (47:33):
it's, it's the, it's that the documentary where this,
older swimmer sets a record byswimming from Miami to Ana.
It's, I recommend, if youhaven't seen it yet, watch this
thing called Nyad.
crazy.
Insane story of this, badassswimmer who over multiple years
managed to accomplish only, Ithink the only person to have
ever done this so far, to do thething.

(47:56):
And the one, montage from thatmovie that stays imprinted in my
memory bank is how she also hadto keep fueling because of that
swim took, I think of a coupleof days continuous swimming, of
her slurping down pasta whileshe was, bouncing or boing up

(48:17):
and down, the ocean just to stayfueled.
So I'm like, Hey, if you can, ifshe can eat something like pasta
while she's swimming, I'm sure Ican eat a power bar while I am,
out, rock climbing

Frank (48:30):
No, I don't know if you saw some of the run art, like
one of the, genres I've done orone of the patterns is to draw a
certain food shape while goingto places eating that food
shape.
So whether it be the donut, thepizza slice, the Dante, the
Chinese Egg Tart.
and so yes, how do you feelafter your, to your sixth slice
or your sixth egg tart or yoursixth donut?

(48:51):
it may not be easy, but yougotta get it down if you are
gonna be out there for hours andhours.
So maybe the one practical tip,I would say for anyone
interested.
Is get used to eating deep intoyour activity, even if you're
not, most people can still eat,let's say, early in their
activity in the first hour ortwo, but then they will be
supposedly sick of it by, let'ssay the third or fourth hour.

(49:12):
You, you've gotta continueeating, and your body will Thank
you.

Kush (49:16):
Absolutely the calories are, not being consumed in vain.

Frank (49:20):
Yeah.

Kush (49:21):
I also liked hearing that you are a vegetarian athlete.
I I am vegetarian myself.
And one of the things that Ikeep thinking about is a lot of
these messages I get these days,not just from food companies,
but even from athletes that,that as you get older, the
amount of protein that you eatis important, again, to keep the

(49:43):
body nourished, wondering whatyour views are on that and, and
how do you keep and yeah.
How do you make sure you getenough nutrition in your diet to
meet your needs.
And if, I don't know if you evenhave a coach or a trainer who
helps you, design your diet.

Frank (50:01):
No, I wish I did.
it's something where, it go,goes back to the simple adage
here of try to eat a variety ofthings.
I eat a lot of nuts, sub tofu.
I don't think I do anythingparticularly to make sure, I
guess I had the protein powderthat I mentioned in my oatmeal.
I think if your diet feelsrelatively balanced, I think I'm

(50:21):
generally okay.
but it's not something where Ihave the luxury of, let's say,
doing, having blood work doneevery month sure.
I guess if I were, I might beactually more inspired to, if,
let's say the races weren'tgoing well.
So in some sense, like I don'twanna be like the end's
justifying the means, but aslong as I'm consistently hitting
targets, like part of me thinkscould I be that bad?

(50:42):
so because I've been lucky orhad a reasonable track record,
one of my goals last year was tocrack, the three 20 mark and the
marathons, and I managed to dothat at all three.
And so I was like, okay, Icouldn't be that bad if I'm
doing that at every marathon.
but yeah, I'm not saying it'snot important, but it's
something where I've justaccepted, whatever results I can

(51:05):
generate with the diet that Ihave.

Kush (51:07):
Absolutely.
And yeah, you are findingprogress,

Frank (51:11):
yeah,

Kush (51:12):
which indicates whatever that you're doing is working.
Any supplementation though, thatyou take outside of the normal
food that you

Frank (51:22):
I probably should.
but I haven't been too, yeah,not at the moment.

Kush (51:28):
Absolutely.
Moving on.

Frank (51:30):
Okay.

Kush (51:31):
Let's talk a little bit about, behaviors, beliefs,
habits.

Frank (51:36):
Okay.

Kush (51:37):
In the last several years, has there been any specific,
habit or behavior that you haveintentionally picked up that has
most improved your life?

Frank (51:50):
I could, I'll tell you something that I probably should
come back to.
so it's an area of improvement.
For us all.
I think earlier in my racing, Iwould be better about let's say
the week of the race.
I tend to be a night owl.
It's also because I'm up latesometimes to attend local music
shows, but the race week wouldapproach, I would shift my
schedule so that I was like, inthe ideal case, getting closer

(52:13):
to waking up naturally on raceday at the event time, which
could be like 3:00 AM 4:00 AMwaking up.
So you, I would be better aboutshifting my schedule earlier.
last year, I didn't do as muchof that and still managed to do
okay, but it made for like avery rude adjustment on the day
of.
So I consider my, I think one ofmy year's resolutions for 2024

(52:35):
was to get back to that.
so that's one another thing wementioned a little bit earlier,
but in terms of habits, Therewas a time, let's say 2021,
where I would try to do two orthree hard workouts a week.
Now I'm better about just sayingI only need to do one, one and a
half or two, and that's fineenough.

(52:55):
so one of the things I have donebetter in the last year, I'd
say, is going into races, alittle undertrained or under,
not as, under strain as theywould in some earlier races.
So just I'd say like little finetuning.

Kush (53:10):
Going in as fresh as possible.

Frank (53:12):
yeah, going as fresh as possible.
I think this is, it's what Ilike about running is this, it's
this path of self-discovery.
even if I had a coach, they'renot gonna know, they're not
gonna feel exactly how I feelinternally, right?
There's no way you cantranscribe for someone.
How it feels right at the end ofthe run.
you could write some notes asyou could communicate to your

(53:32):
coach, but they're not gonnaknow exactly how you're feeling.
So I think to have success insport, whether it be running or
something else, being able toperceive how you're doing is
really critical leading up tothe race.
And I'd say even during a racetoo, I think I'm much more at
peace with starting a littleslower and seeing what kind of

(53:53):
day it's gonna be.
You can look at how you've donein training.
you can have all these racecalculators, you can have all
these things saying how youshould do, but nothing's as same
as like a quarter or a third ofthe way through.
Like you know how it's going,right?
And being able to adjust yourplan.
So I think more recently,instead of having a very
specific target time, I've gonein there with this range of

(54:13):
expectations and as if I'mtrying to aim in between two
goalposts, So having a littlebit of flexibility about how
it's gonna be.
And my friend Dario, he had agreat comment to me.
He just said at the halfway partof the marathon, what kind of
day it's gonna be.
And so like part of my goal nowis okay, let get to the half,

(54:34):
I'll know how it's gonna be andI'll like replan or kind of
readjust from there.

Kush (54:38):
Makes sense.
I think it's along the sametheme of, Keeping your, training
a little bit under.
Also keeping your expectations alittle bit under, and then
letting those things, calibrateas you go through the race.

Frank (54:53):
and I think it's really having a confidence to adjust to
that new information.
may, maybe the way I'd frame itis you have very.
Objective measures of how you'redoing, like the time that's
showing on your watch, thesplits, and then you have this
very subjective, more kind ofemotional, like, how do I feel?
so I wouldn't ever, I don'tthink I'd ever have the
wherewithal to run completely byfeel.

(55:15):
I think I'll always probably belooking at something, some data
oriented stuff, but I wouldn'tbe like a slave to the data
either.
And so the thing that I thinkI've been better about more
recently is trying to marriagethese two inputs and like they
both I kind of com I try tocombine them mentally to with
this picture of okay, I feelgreat or not great, but the time

(55:36):
says this.
And I'll, combine them for acertain approach for the second
half of the race.

Kush (55:42):
I am guessing that the very best athletes are able to,
find that within combination ofdata and, instinct to guide,
guide the performance.

Frank (55:53):
Because my thing is if you just went by field, don't
you always feel horrible at theend of the race and you just
slow down, right?
So there's something to likethis objective measure of you
are not going this pace that youthought you could try to go that
pace.
Let's go.
and it of course it feelsdisproportionately easy in the
beginning, right?
you don't wanna just go on that.

Kush (56:11):
Absolutely.
What are, maybe, so we talkedabout some of the things that
you have.
Learn to do, which have helpedyou perform well.
What could be, let's say, onepoor habit that you want to,
break out of?

Frank (56:28):
Yeah.
I alluded to a couple of them.
I do need to get wake upearlier, get on, Get on the race
day timing sooner.
I gotten Cavalier last year andstill had good results.
So that's one I wanna bringback.
no, you have a good point.
It, especially there, thosemiddle aged males, it would
probably be a good idea to dothat annual checkup.
it will not shock anyone to let,do all of us get our annual

(56:51):
physical and blood work done.
Ah, not really.
so that's a case where in termsof listening to my own advice
right now, I'm largely going offfield.
It would be nice to have thedata to see exactly what my
blood work number is.
that may be more common on thekind of a US healthcare system
too.
It'd be nice to be able to getthat information more regularly
without paying an arm and a leg.

(57:11):
But we are where we are.
so I'd say like I will continueto monitor those two, but I
probably could, I.
Have some improvement there tomaking sure my diet supports my
running.
I'm sure I'll be a lot moremotivated if I have a race where
I melt down.
I'll quickly sign up for myphysical right after that.

Kush (57:30):
I spoke to a, a world class, big wave surfer recently,
who's who also happens to be a.
medical doctor, his name is, Dr.
Mark Maner.
Anyway, so yeah, he advised meon the same thing.
So I'm the same way.
I have this inertia aboutgetting my blood work done on a
regular basis, and he said yet,yes, one is shooting from the
hip, otherwise, we are tryingdifferent things.

(57:51):
So I did have blood work donesometime back, and I did have, I
was deficient in D three, whichI think, many people are.
So I've been taking that and herecommended a couple of places.
One can get, full panel done,like function, health, et
cetera, and it costs a bit ofmoney, but I think they are able
to give one a, full spectrum of,biomarkers and our readings and

(58:14):
yeah.
I guess it's something for me tolook into or maybe all of us to
look into, who are not doingthat, doing that today.
Just moving on a little bit, wetalked about different things.
We talked about diet, we talkedabout, training, we talked about
some habits.
Frank, as, as we are all,getting older, do you think you
are prepared for aging, What aresome things that you're doing

(58:37):
well in that regard and somethings you should start doing?

Frank (58:41):
good question.
the thing I'm most prepared foris the trajectory, which I
alluded to earlier where I knowit's gonna be harder to wr out
some gains.
I will try and then I'll be atpeace with this other, this next
stage of running where maybeit's just, doing it for the
sport or supporting other peoplein the sport.

(59:02):
I'm okay with that.
So I'd say like the thing thatI'm probably most prepared for
is the mentality.
I don't know if I'm doinganything else to necessarily
prepare for running

Kush (59:13):
and by the way, it doesn't just have to be about,
specifically running.
It could be about, your life asa whole.

Frank (59:19):
Yeah, no, I think I'm reasonably set up.
it's an honor and privilege tobe able to spend time this way.
I should be able to do it thatway for the near term.
I don't see any reason why Ican't, no.
Just trying to stay healthy and,yeah.

Kush (59:34):
One thing I do love about, about your personality as
compared to many athletes.
you obviously, you do put somuch focus into your running,
but one is you can.
You find a way to add more funby, with the art perspective.
And then you also, you also goand listen to music shows, which
is great because I speak withother, endurance athletes.

(59:54):
a lot of them are, are theblocks, before the sun comes up
and putting their training milesin or whatnot, which means they
can't really be out at,watching, uh, rock shows.
shows.
so I like the way you findbalance, which is, nothing, hey,
nothing wrong with other othersand what schedule they follow.
But I like going to music eventsmyself.
One of my favorite things aboutliving in the city.

Frank (01:00:15):
and this is a little bit about picking up later in life
where the, if I had toself-describe, I would probably
say I'm a punk rocker more thanI'm a runner in terms of
lifetime.
the number of shows I'veattended is, let's say it's
probably almost 800.

Kush (01:00:30):
Wow.

Frank (01:00:31):
so let's say last year I saw about, I.
50 shows.
So imagine this is at least oncea week or roughly once a week.
I'm out till 10, 11, 12,wherever.
And then not surprisingly, it'snot like I get home and just
completely crash, right?
You're still a little too hoppedup or I've run back from the
show.
And I've just accepted that.

(01:00:52):
Yeah.
I'm gonna be asleep, fallingasleep at one, two, whatever.
And I understand and acknowledgethis is probably, not the
optimum for sing, but I, like Imentioned about the diet and
other things, there's certainimmutables that like, I will
accept whatever results I getand as close as possible.
I'm one where like I wanna tryto have it all.

(01:01:14):
I intellectually understandthat's not possible, but I'm
still dumb enough to like, no,I'm gonna try and stubborn
enough.
It's no, I'm gonna go to theshow.
I'm gonna run with the slice ofpizza.
Then I'm gonna try to drill iton Sunday at on Race day.
And I've been lucky in that,like I'm pulling the all mall
off, at least reasonably whileacknowledging yes, if I were

(01:01:37):
doing this to save my life, Iwould probably cut one and focus
on the other, but I don't haveto.

Kush (01:01:43):
Badass.
I think this is just refreshingabout the way you have
approached your sport goes on tosay that, there, there's more
than one road that leads to Romeand one can be hyper dialed in
and focused, singularly focusedon one's training, but one can
also accomplish otherinteresting things in life

Frank (01:02:03):
yeah.

Kush (01:02:03):
and still manage to pursue at, your support at a high
level.

Frank (01:02:06):
I think something specifically to running may,
maybe it's different for othersports, I'd say, is it doesn't,
I at least I haven't found thatit benefits from
intellectualizing or thinkingabout all throughout the week,
right?
you go out and you nail your runand then your mind should just
really be elsewhere while yourbody kind of recuperates.
I don't know if like for most ofus hobby joggers or like weekend

(01:02:28):
warrior types who are likeOlympians and maybe even I'd say
for them too, it probably isn'thealthy or it's not even the
best performance wise.
They're like solely so focusedto oh no, I can't go out.
I'm just gonna sit at home andwonder how I'm gonna do Sunday
or whatnot.
I do think there's some benefitto taking your mind off as much
as I said earlier, that it'snice to challenge yourself and
think throughout a run and pushyourself to the limit that way.

(01:02:50):
I think once a run's done, youdon't have to think about it
anymore, it's done.
let your body go recover.

Kush (01:02:56):
Absolutely.
obviously you managed to makethe space to keep pursuing some
hobbies and interests outside ofrunning, but at the same time,
given your output as an athleteand the effort that goes in,
there's this sacrifice.

Frank (01:03:13):
Yes, absolutely.

Kush (01:03:15):
Any significant sacrifices that you are making or have made
to achieve this life?

Frank (01:03:22):
nothing too significant.
there, I'd say big picture andsmall picture.
leading up to the week of therace, I probably do not go to a
show that week of cause I don'twanna be that thrashed.
I, maybe I'll revisit that, butusually on the week of, I try
to, I at least focus for that.
I'm lucky enough to be able tobe working part-time.
Which allows me to do all thisnonsense.

(01:03:45):
And so I'd say it's something toconsider for your audience if,
is there a way people can ifthe, if this is something they
wanna pursue, can they opt down?
Are they established enoughcareer wise where maybe they'll
need to be vice president ofwhatever and can kind go back to
being, let's say, an individualcontributor and nurturing other

(01:04:05):
aspects of your life?
So I know I'm conceding let'ssay something career-wise, but
I'm at peace with that.
certainly there's other thingsI'm sure I'm giving up on, but
it doesn't feel like it toomuch.
And I'm getting enough rewardfrom, I'd say the various facets
of my life that it doesn't feellike I'm overly weighing one
thing, and nor do I feel likeI'm passing up that much yet.

Kush (01:04:24):
Absolutely.
We are nearing, the end of ourtime here.
Frank, just a couple of funquestions before, before we let
you go.
obviously you have run everystudent sf, which is monumental.
What would be one city that youhaven't run in that would be on
your, bucket list?

Frank (01:04:43):
it's not very adventurous or not very far.
I'll give, I'll first give aboring answer.
I do wanna, I ha I am about,like a third of the way through
running Berkeley or all ofBerkeley.
my sister lives there now and Ihave some history there.
I, the way I've approached thisas a, life goal of eh, I'll chip
away at that over time.
It wa it was very unlike my SanFrancisco pursuit, where I
pretty much did over thatpandemic, run a neighborhood, go

(01:05:06):
home, shower, go to bed, wake upand run a different neighborhood
the next day.
So that was a very differentkind of pursuit.
no, I, I think in general, I.
When I travel it, it's nice tosee it by running.
I don't know if I have anyparticular city that's
screamingly scratching my itch.
I guess it'd be nice to go backto Hong Kong.
It is been a very long timesince I've been there, but that

(01:05:28):
was where, let's say my parentsmet and like their birthplace or
kind of childhood place.
eh, I, not typically a runningcity, but it'd be nice to go
around Hong Kong and revisitthat.
I think the thing that when you,when I do revisit a city now in
this new running era, the placesfeel small, right?
Because you can move so quicklyby running, let's say walk, then

(01:05:51):
let's say walking, SanFrancisco, it feels like running
over to the other side of theocean, the west side.
That would've been mind blowingto me in my youth, right?
But now it's eh, about an hourI'll get there.

Kush (01:06:03):
For sure.
And hey, I suppose to anybodylistening from Hong Kong and,
wanting to create run art, theywill have to remember to, to
dodge those, skyscrapers

Frank (01:06:14):
Oh yeah.
No, in that case, there's piecesof run art where every block
matters, and then there's onesthat are more abstract.
So maybe that ladder, eh, let'sjust try to draw a circle and
see how smooth that circle is inthe middle of, Kong.

Kush (01:06:28):
besides completing, running around Berkeley and
maybe gonna Hong Kong.
Any other running goals for thenext five years?

Frank (01:06:35):
Next five years.
so last year when I did Boston,I thought I'd be a one and done
thing.
I just wanted to see how it wasexperienced.
so I said it really resonatedwith me.
It was.
It was really inspiring just tobe there.
it was like running Nerdery,like you just run around those
other random people that yousee.
so it was like this conventionof sorts for running nerds.
so I'm going again in a few we,or in a few months.

(01:06:56):
and I'm, I am inspired to keepthat train going as long as I
can.
as far as that, I think justgenerally improving in time,
like we mentioned, of seeingwhat I can do in the next five
years and then gracefully,hopefully, or maybe not
gracefully transitioning to thenext phase where I'm just doing
the best I can on that day.
maybe at that point I'll bedoing more run art.

(01:07:16):
I'm not sure.
But, no, I think the near termgoal is to see what I can ring
out and then I'll revisit, whenI can't.

Kush (01:07:24):
Frank, I don't know if you like to read books or, watch.
Watch movies, but, any favorite,book or, piece of media that you
would recommend that you

Frank (01:07:34):
my favorite movie of all time.
Okay, so my favorite two moviesthat, of which I've done run Art
for is, these are very old, butlike Back to the Future, one of
the run art pieces I did was TheFlux Capacitor.

Kush (01:07:45):
Oh, nice.

Frank (01:07:46):
And then, one of the first run art piece, I think the
actually first serious run artpiece I did was The Little
Mermaid.
That's my favorite soundtrack.

Kush (01:07:52):
Okay.

Frank (01:07:53):
so yeah, no, part of with the Run Art, it's just pieces of
pop culture that inspire me.
So I've done a few album covers,both for big bands

Kush (01:08:03):
Oh,

Frank (01:08:04):
and also like small bands that like, where I know the,
where I know the artist.
It's fun to help highlight whatthey've done.
and cement their, album frontcover on the streets of San
Francisco.

Kush (01:08:16):
Beautiful.
We are right back to music.
On and on that note, perhaps myfinal question, which is one
music venue that you adored thatyou would not mind, sending
people to, and also onefavorite, band outta San
Francisco that needs more?
love.

Frank (01:08:35):
Oh, definitely.
so the venue that I've attendedthe most over time is Slims,
which is unfortunately close,but now second place is bottom
of the hill.
that's a great venue.
I love them.
down the street, the Parkside isalso in that Pater Hill area.
Those are great.
in terms of, one of the thingsthat I was not expecting last
year was, two bands.

(01:08:58):
Played on a BART train.
they're both young and up andcoming.
They're named false flag andsurprise Privilege.
I've seen them now since a bunchof times.
It's been great to see theirkind of ascendancy.
it's the nature of punk musicwhere it is, it's the voice of
the youth.
no one wants to hear like oldpeople ranting, or maybe they
do, if it's what you heard inyour youth or if it's not a

(01:09:19):
nostalgia,

Kush (01:09:20):
I think, I think, I think the people who love to hear old
people ranting are old peoplethemselves

Frank (01:09:28):
yeah.
Exactly

Kush (01:09:29):
because.

Frank (01:09:29):
No, I, yeah.
no.
It's, so I've loved seeing thetwo of them, so I definitely try
to catch the two of them.
and I'm usually there, I'musually running to the show.
I'm usually down somewhere infront trying to like, make sure,
although the one compromise isyou won't see me in the pitter
just because I'm like, oh myGod, I've got this race coming
up.
So I'm generally a little off tothe side these days.

(01:09:50):
so that, that is one compromiseof the music attendee
experience, I'd say is I'm alittle worried about like my
legs being crunched, but, it'sbeen fine.
but I will run it to and fromthe show usually.

Kush (01:10:02):
That's super.
get your running in every whichway.

Frank (01:10:05):
Yep.

Kush (01:10:05):
Awesome.
Hey, listen, so I know we stillhave, some soundbite left and
it's sunny where I am inBurnell.
I may be keeping you from your,afternoon run.
So I will let you go.
Frank.
It's been a delight having youon the show.

Frank (01:10:20):
No, thanks so much for having me.

Kush (01:10:22):
Absolutely.
Take care and wish you luck foryour next one.

Frank (01:10:25):
All right.
Bye-Bye.

Yeti Stereo Microphone-1 (01:10:29):
Wow.
Frank was a pleasure to chatwith.
I was breaking into new groundwith speaking with an urban
marathon runner, but came outinvigorated with Frank's
passionate, but humble pursuitof his craft.
He's talented.
Persevering.
And whip smart.
But also funny irreverent.

(01:10:51):
And knows a thing or two aboutbalance.
In a community where we oftentake ourselves a bit too
seriously.
Frank's humility.
And balanced approach totraining and life comes across
as a breath of fresh air.
A lot.
That he saw over 50 punk rockshows last year.

(01:11:12):
Do follow Frank on Instagram andJack Howard has run art at his
website ad.
www.chanarcy.com.
Of course you can look him up onStrava as well.
The leave the links on shownotes.
Thanks again, Diana for helpingme connect with Frank.

(01:11:32):
Friends, please leave a review.
If you enjoy the show.
It helps.
Until next time.
Stay funny.
stay irreverent.
And ageless.

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#10 Frank Chan - Coloring San Francisco's Streets with "Run Art", Bliss of Running Later in Life & Hacks to Train in a Wholesome Way

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}#10 Frank Chan - Coloring San Francisco's Streets with "Run Art", Bliss of Running Later in Life & Hacks to Train in a Wholesome Way