#15 Wayne Willoughby - From Severe Disability to Big Wall Summits, an Adaptive Rock Climber's Transformative Story - Ageless Athlete - Stories and Secrets of Adventure Sports Icons

Episode Transcript
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Kush (00:06):
Welcome to the Ageless athlete podcast, where we talk
to elite adventure, sports iconswho inspire and educate us to
keep pushing on.
Thank you for tuning in, and Ipromise this one will leave your
riveted.
It will challenge yourperspective on what it means to
be an elite athlete.
And leave you feeling soinspired.

(00:27):
What drives someone to achievethe seemingly impossible?
Meet Wayne, Wayne Willoughby, anadaptive rock climber, who
defied incredible odds and hasclimbed El Capitan in Yosemite.
Not once or twice, but a mindboggling 26 times.

(00:48):
From battling polio anddisabilities since infancy.
To suffering, terrible injuries.
Wayne overcame.
Obstacle after obstacle.
He also became the firstadaptive climber to reach the
summit of famous gruelingclimbs, like El Cap and the
diamond.
And under 24 hours.

(01:09):
In this wondrous conversationand with his infectious yet
humble demeanor.
Wayne opened up about how hedeveloped the grit.
Creative problem solving.
And deep gratitude for lives,simply gifts.
That empowered him to defylimitations.
His stoke for the outdoors andsheer refusal to be held back.

(01:29):
Despite the punishing toll onhis body is straight up
inspiring.
Whether you are a crusty tradhead or just someone looking for
an awesome story of perseveranceto get pumped on buckle up.
This convo with a real lifesuperhero still define the odds
well into his seventies is goingto blow your mind.
And if you like the show.

(01:51):
Leave a review on Spotify or anapple podcast now.
I mean it.
Pause do it now.
And then come back over here.
It helps others find the show.
I thank you from the bottom ofmy.
ageless heart.
Wayne, good to have you on theshow.
To start off with, can you tellus where you are and what did

(02:15):
you for breakfast today?

Wayne (02:16):
I had a ham sandwich for breakfast at my, sitting at my
computer desk here at the homethat I share with my wife and
our little kitty, Kaya, inPortland, Oregon.
Beautiful Portland.
Love this place so much.

Kush (02:34):
you sent me some lovely pictures from a hike yesterday.
Where were you Wayne?
And, and why is even going on ahike in your beautiful backyard
challenging for you?

Wayne (02:52):
well, I have to wear braces, um, as a result of both
paralytic polio when I was ninemonths old, post polio syndrome,
which I started dealing withwhen I was nine years old,
unbeknownst to me until I was, Idiagnosed myself with it.
When I was in my thirties andI've also had a lot of other

(03:13):
injuries, sadly, I have been hitby cars on my motorcycles and
bicycle.
I have been assaulted many,many, many times, including just
two years ago, which have led toreally, really, really major,
major injuries.
And then I've had lots ofsurgeries related to the polio

(03:33):
going back to I had two majorsurgeries before I was two.
Um, which I had to then learnhow to walk using a big, what's
called a CAFO, a big metal legbrace on my right leg and a set
of parallel bars, throwing myright leg in front of me and
holding myself up with theparallel bars.

(03:55):
So That was my first timelearning how to walk again post
contracting paralytic polio.
I walked for three or four dayswhen I was nine months old.
I was pretty precocious and wasable to walk for a few days
before I contracted paralyticpolio, but then I didn't walk

(04:16):
again until I was two in themanner that I just described.
And then I've had all theseother times where I've had major
surgeries.
Learn how to walk again, majorinjuries, learn how to walk
again, you know, trying tocontinue to be as close to the
best that I can be withlimitations that have been

(04:38):
imposed upon me.
And so that is why it's justsuch an incredible blessing to
be able to walk again.
And, It's timely.
It's very timely, this question,because it's just been in the
last three weeks that since theinjuries from June of 2022,

(04:59):
after those injuries, I couldonly walk assisted with a pair
of hiking poles or one hikingpole, like say in the house, but
anytime I would go out.
And I've just, just started tobe able to walk again without a
hiking pole, just a few stepshere and there.
And I did take a fall and I gota little too ambitious.
So now I'm starting toappreciate walking anew in ways

(05:22):
that I wouldn't have, had I notbeen through that.
Now, there's no way I'm gladthat I had to endure what I did,
but at the same time, it helpsme to keep a perspective of
gratitude for what I do have.
Rather than taking for grantedwhat I have or being upset

(05:49):
because I don't have more.
Instead, now I'm like, Oh, if Icould only get back to where I
was before those injuries, lifewould be pretty darn good.
So it's really all a matter ofperspective.
And for me, it's really a matterof trying to steal myself.
Make it through each day thebest day that I can.

(06:09):
Keep as much positive energy inmy heart as I can and try to
make good things come from allof this in terms of I'm also a
painter, an oil painter, and Ireally find myself being
challenged just to be able topaint when I have these major

(06:32):
injuries.
So then when I get to the pointwhere I'm recovering a bit, And
I can actually paint again, thenI appreciated all the new, all
the more.
And maybe before those injuries,I was like, Oh, why do I have to
wear this wrist brace just to beable to paint this kind of
sucks, it gets in the way.
And now it's like, wow, how,what a blessing that I'm able to

(06:56):
paint.
Um, so it's really how you frameit.
It's really how you see it.
And that is, um, a beautifulthing.

Kush (07:08):
Thank you, Wayne, uh, remarkable, and, uh, there's so
many questions that spring tomind, but just for edification,
would you mind just talking Justa little bit on what does, what,
how has post polio and, uh,subsequent trauma, how does that

(07:31):
physically impact you?
Which makes, uh, makes doingeveryday small things, including
other things such as painting,walking and all the other
incredible things.
what are fundamentally your, uh,limitations?

Wayne (07:46):
Well, I have to prioritize my time and my energy
because I don't have anabundant, you know, amount that
I can just utilize without, youknow, You know, thinking about,
Oh, what are the obligationsthat I have?
Like, I can only paint for solong.
I can only train so hard.

(08:08):
I can only, you know, I want totry to be the best that I can
be, but I also want to be thebest to myself that I can be.
And as I'm aging and I am 71now.
I think a lot about longevityand my wife is a lot younger
than me.
Most of my friends are youngerthan her, even a lot of, a lot

(08:29):
of them, in fact.
Um, and, and I don't mean tosound that, you know, I, I, I do
have friends my age and evenolder, I'm not trying to say
that.
I am an ageist type of person.
That wasn't what I was trying toimply.
I was just saying that I have alot of motivation and a lot of
reason to want to be here aslong as I can be functioning at
as high of a level as I can be.

(08:51):
And I think that's true of allof us.
And if you look at Americatoday, 43.
7 percent of Americans areobese.
So this concept is lost on a lotof people.
And sadly, those people are allgoing to pay the price.
you know, you start becomingobese and you start having, I

(09:11):
don't need to educate youraudience on this topic.
I'm sure they know it's, youknow, you're, you're, you're
going to become pre diabetic andyou'll eventually become
diabetic.
You're going to have heartproblems.
You're going to have.
Back problems, you're going tohave other joint problems from
care, you know, try carryingaround.
I mean, depending on how muchover their ideal weight people

(09:34):
are, just think what it would doto you if you carried a, let's
say, a 50 pound backpack aroundwith you all day long.
At the end of the day, you wouldbe wiped out.
Now try doing that in every daywith all this fat around your
internal organs.
Anyway, I don't need to go.

Kush (09:52):
absolutely.
I think, uh, I think a lot of ustake, uh, everyday health for
granted.
you know, that, that adage,youth is wasted on the young.
and there is maybe a parallelgood health is wasted on the
healthy.
But, uh, coming back to you Sowhat I gleaned from that is, you
have limited supplies ofvitality and you have to be

(10:18):
careful how you ration that.
But outside of that, I believeyou also have difficulty using
all your limbs.

Wayne (10:26):
oh yeah, no, I wear a ankle support on my left foot,
an AFO, which is short for anacronym for assistive foot
orthotic.
Say that 10 times fast.
I wear a cage type brace on myleft knee.
I wear a wrap brace on my rightleg and I wear wrist braces on

(10:51):
both wrists and also use elbowsupports, tendonitis type, you
know, wraps around my forearmswhen I'm training and, I feel
pretty lucky that, you know, I'mable to do all of the things I'm
able to do by using those.

(11:11):
Um, I, and I also walk withhiking poles as I alluded to
earlier, and I wish I haddiscovered those when I was like
in grade school, how much easiermy life would have been because
crutches just ruin your elbows,your shoulders, canes are so
hard on your wrists, but hikingpoles, and especially if you're

(11:32):
using the ones, you know, themodern hiking poles that have
the grips below the handle, I'mconstantly You know, grabbing
that, changing my grip and thenI have all these issues of my
wrists and arthritis in mywrists.
And so it's really important forme to be able to have a solid

(11:52):
base, which is not me juststanding on my feet, but me
standing on my feet and havingthose poles.
And I really feel so blessed tohave figured all of this out and
to be able to do the things thatI'm doing.
And you were asking me about myhike and why my hikes mean so

(12:14):
much to me.
And it's because there's beentimes when I haven't been able
to be at as high of a level whenI still, I really believe that
if you can work through injuriesand issues, and maintain some
level of fitness without harmingyourself further.

(12:36):
That is really the way to gobecause it's so hard to get back
in shape at any age.
And especially as you startgetting up above, you know, into
your fifties, sixties,seventies.
But with that said, I also thinkthat there are so many people
now Who are doing the types ofthings that I'm doing, following

(12:57):
the protocols I'm following,eating a relatively healthy
diet, eating smaller portions,always trying to maintain their
fitness level to the degree thatthey're able to, meditating,
thinking positive thoughts,surrounding yourself.
With positive people, which ishuge, which I've learned again

(13:18):
and again and again, howimportant that is, you know,
those strategies will allow youas you age to Much healthier way
and give you the potential to doso much more as you age.

Kush (13:34):
Wayne, Let me ask you about some of your, uh, early
climbing days.
And as we get into that, what Iam intrigued and fascinated by
is, growing up, uh, in the 60s,70s of the last century, I think
just being, just beingdifferently abled must have been

(13:57):
challenging enough.
Just measuring up and doingeveryday things would have been
hard enough.
What motivated you?
What pushed you into embracingrock climbing?
Something that was, somethingthat is difficult and niche,

(14:18):
even today for able bodiedpeople, you were out there
pushing the frontiers, learninghow to climb, being differently
abled.
what gave rise to that passion?

Wayne (14:30):
Well, I've always been drawn to adventure sports.
even though I was blessed to beable to live in Hawaii when I
was a kid.
for a few years and had somepretty major surgeries done
during that time, but stilltried to surf to the degree that
I was able to as I look back onit now, I realize I should have

(14:54):
been knee boarding or even, youknow, belly boarding.
but what did I know?
I was a kid anyway, but I didget to surf a bit.
I did have some great rides.
I did have some great times withfriends.
unfortunately when I was 19,when I was 12, one of the
surgeries I had in Hawaii, theytook out the growth.

(15:14):
My right leg was three inchesshorter than my left leg because
of the paralytic polio.
And they took out the growthcenters, the doctors, At a
military hospital in Hawaii,took out the growth centers in
my left knee, thinking my legswould grow even, but instead my
right leg ended up growing twoand a quarter inches longer, so
when I was 19, they took out twoand a quarter inches of femur

(15:38):
from my right leg and put aninch long rod through my hip for
a year and a half, I was 10years into the post polio
syndrome, unbeknownst to me, Ihad no idea what it was at that
time, and that certainly didn'tmake the post polio syndrome any
better, certainly didn't make myphysical circumstances any
better, but it did teach me thatI was going to have to work

(16:01):
really hard again to get back towhere I was before that event.
And that led me, I had been anage group swimmer, as well as
had done the surfing, so I wasin the water a lot.
That led me to get back into apool and start swimming again.
And that led me to join the swimteam in college and start

(16:23):
playing water polo.
And I was pretty fit.
and I knew guys.
That were climbers and I waslike, let's yeah, I'd love to
try this Let's and I'm and Istarted out as a boulderer Which
is ironic because these daysboulderer, you know bouldering
is so popular and there's lotsof people who are Purely
boulderers.

(16:43):
They don't that's all they do.
You know,

Kush (16:45):
So hang on.
Me understand this.
So you had post-polio and youhad these other issues going on,
and you were bouldering in anera before bouldering pads were
invented.
it sounds like you werecomfortable taking risks

Wayne (17:03):
Try not to fall.
Ha ha ha ha.
Try not How

Kush (17:06):
supportive was your family, your friends, your
community.
And the reason I ask is.
I am aware that sometimes whenyou have differently abled kids
born into families who are notaccustomed to that, they can be
overly protective of those kidsand keep them from maybe

(17:28):
flourishing into things.
But here you are.
You're surfing.
You are in swim teams.
You're out there ridingmotorcycles.
So, how did your parents dealwith that?
How did your community supportIt

Wayne (17:46):
My mother had been a ballerina in England, and my
father, Mike, I told you alittle bit about some of my
experience when I was 19, whenmy dad was 19, he was a side
gunner in a B 17 during WorldWar II in the 8th Air Force,
which took the highest casualtyand injury rate of any branch of

(18:08):
the American Armed Forces duringWorld War II.
extraordinary people And sothere was a side of, you know,
like they were happy for me.
I think my dad, it wasn't likehe was like, yeah, go climb El
Cap, at the same time, he wasn'tlike, you can't do that, you

(18:29):
know, like, and so I think thatthere, you know, I was really,
really, really lucky to havefriends who said, one of, one of
my early climbing friends whoreally believed in me was John
Backer.
And when I would talk to Johnabout, because I had wanted to
climb, even though I was mainlybouldering, I was bouldering,

(18:51):
you know, I was doing okay.
I knew that with my athleticbackground, with my drive, and I
really wanted to climb El Cap Ihad seen the first ascent of El
Capitan when I was five yearsold.
those guys were up there for along time.
We lived not terribly far fromYosemite.
There was, you know, things inthe news and the media about it.

(19:12):
And we went up and, and I canremember standing in El Cap
Meadow as a little kid with thismetal leg brace on and just
thinking, man, these guys arethe shit.
This is it! Come on! And Ialways carried that memory with
me, and so when I did startclimbing, my big goal right
away, as audacious as it mayhave sounded, was to climb El

(19:35):
Cap.
And I found out about anotheradaptive climber who had also
had polio, Roger Breedlove, um,we've actually become friends
now, and he He had a lesserdegree of disability than I did,
but he was affected by polio,and still hasn't been affected
by the post polio syndrome,luckily for him.

(19:55):
so when I found out about him, IBridwelt was the first one who
told me about Roger Breedlove.
And You know, it was like,alright, John Backer thinks I
can climb El Cap, Jim Bridwellthinks I can climb El Cap, maybe
I can do it.
And then I had more injuries andI had more setbacks, but

(20:15):
eventually I did.
And I had more injuries and moresetbacks, but eventually I got
past those and kept going.
And I'm in a place now where Iam taking time off to recover
from major injuries.
But I still have the goal ofgetting back up there and doing
more climbing and I'm reallyincredibly blessed to have many,

(20:39):
many, many partners who are alsogreat friends who are highly
interested in getting up therewith me again, which is pretty
extraordinary for somebody who's71 with or without my medical
history.

Kush (20:54):
it is so badass.
Can you describe to us what isclimbing El Cap for you?
And just for everybody'sreference also, what is the
difference in a normal personClimbing El Cap versus you
climbing El Cap.
You have climbed El Cap a recordnumber of times.

Wayne (21:18):
well, for, let's say for, for an adaptive climber,

Kush (21:22):
accept it, accept it.
What I'm getting to is, mostclimbers out there, 99.
X percent of all climbersregular or different, they will
never climb El Cap.
Most of us will never climb ElCap.
Not only have you climbed ElCap, you have climbed El Cap
also other walls many, manytimes.

(21:43):
would love to hear in yourwords, what is the experience of
climbing El Cap?
what does it involve?
How is it like there?
how is it like being up on thewall?
and accomplishing that kind ofgoal.

Wayne (21:56):
for me, you know, my life has been broken up into all
these different chapters of,after these injuries, after this
car hit me, after this personassaulted me.
And so, there's differentlayers, now, when I climbed El
Cap the first time, I hadn't hadthese major injuries in 91, that
really, like I couldn't evenwalk for a long time after that.

(22:19):
I was able to do a lot more.
And then as time went on, I hadvarious different things.
So it's really all beendifferent through the years.
And I actually had a pretty goodrun up until I had some pretty
serious injuries in 2017.
Where I was climbing quite a bitand doing quite a few walls and
was at a point where maybe I wasstarting to get a little blase

(22:43):
about it and taking it forgranted a little bit.
a short period of time, I set arecord on El Cap with my
friends, Hans Florain and BrianMcRae on the route Bad Seed for
my first one day ascent of ElCap.
And that was extraordinary.
And then after that I, you know,went through this, went through
that.
And got to a point where we seta record on, a route in Zion,

(23:09):
and then had more injuries.
And even after those injuries,set a record, did the first one
day ascent of the aid route ona, anyway, a route in Squamish
on the Chief.
and that was extraordinary to beable to do that.

Kush (23:26):
I was reading a little bit about your, ascent with Hans,
and Brian I actually am familiarwith Brian McRae.
I think that he also goes byflying Brian.
I think I used to climb at thenew river gorge where, uh,
Brian, left a legacy.
behind.
I remember reading, uh, Wayne,that your climbing style was so

(23:48):
different than everybody else'sbecause you could not use your
entire body the same way.
So in essence, you were doing,is that true?
You were doing thousands of Pullups

Wayne (23:59):
yeah.

Kush (24:00):
how is that?
Like, how is, what do you haveto do to get up on a wall?
What's the routine?
Like, how do you gear up?
How do you start climbing?
How do you exchange, places inall of those 30 odd pitches to
get to the top of that monolith?

Wayne (24:18):
well, I wear a sit harness as well as a chest
harness.
I use skateboard, elbow, kneepads, as well as, you know, knee
pads on my elbows and my knees.
And I use a speed stirrup thatHans actually designed, that
Yates makes and it's just anadjust, it's like a, as, as the

(24:39):
name implies, a stirrup thatgoes around your foot with a
little adjustment on it and youclip that to your system, you
know, your, when your jug, I, Ihave a chest harness, so I have
my bottom jug between my sitharness and my chest harness,
I'm connected from my sitharness to my jug, know, my, my

(25:03):
chest harness and my sitharness, I have a jug in
between.
And then I have my top jugconnected to the speed stirrup
and connected to my bottomharness.
So when I throw the top jug upand step up, With the speed
harness, then a lot of times Ihave to pull the rope underneath

(25:27):
me through the bottom, Jumar.
And I also use my hands and myfeet a lot on the wall.
It depends, like if I'm on thechief, for instance, there's
lots of places where I'mactually free climbing and just
pulling my jugs up.
And I can remember on one routeI did on The Chief, not that
many years ago, that I did awhole pitch.

(25:50):
I free climbed the whole pitchand had to pull my jugs up as I
was free climbing, just for theheck of it, just because I could
do it, because it was easy freeclimbing.
and I do mantles, and I do, youknow, I'm actually doing a lot
more than just ju marring.
And then when I'm on, you know,Really steep roots, like on the
southeast face where bad seedis.
Which is the root you weretalking about that I did with

(26:12):
Hans and Brian.
And that was the first one dayadaptive el cap ascent.
And before I did that, I didn'teven know how my body would
react.
I had tried cleaning, well, Idid lurking fear in 94 Was
coming back from some majorinjuries.
I had climbed the diamondearlier that year and was

(26:34):
carried in.
and that's a big story in that Ibrought my, I worked and worked
and worked and worked and gotmyself strong enough and used my
poles to actually hike in anddid three ascents of the diamond
in a row, many years later, but,on this ascent of lurking fear
that I did in 94, I tried toclean.
Well, I didn't clean the twotraverses.

(26:56):
because the pitches, it wouldjust take me too long to clean
them.
They're traversing pitches.
Um, but I cleaned all the otherpitches easily.
It wasn't even a problem for meuntil I got to the top.
And then I realized I had beenovertaxing my right leg to the
point where it didn't even movewhen I got to the top.
And the next day I startedgetting a little bit back and a

(27:17):
little bit, but it took a longtime.
And then I realized, okay, Ican't really be cleaning.
I can't really be carrying arack and taxing this leg to that
degree.
after that, I started doing allmy El Capistense, pretty much
just my partner's cleaning.
I would clean, you know, ifthere was some gear that would
be helpful for me to clean andmake it easier for the second or

(27:39):
whatever, I would do things likethat.
But a lot of times, it wouldmake it harder if I would, so I
wouldn't, Anyway, so that was,that was hard for me because I
wanted to do more.
I even, at one point, I wantedto get, you know, back into
leading.
But at the same time, it's like,anytime you are, especially with
aid climbing.
leading even a small fall ontoyour harness can really screw up

(28:02):
your back.
So I decided leading is probablynot in my best interests.
I'm trying to just be able towalk, you know, and then
falling, landing on my legs,that's not going to, you know,
so it was really hard for me toto say, all right, this I'm
going to be limited to justdoing this.
But at the same time, doing itin a day, was a whole nother

(28:24):
thing.
So then once I started doing OneDay A Sense, it was like, okay,
all I'm doing is jumeoring.
Uh, yeah, but it's still hardfor anyone, you know, and for me
especially.
And then as you know, like I wassaying about Bad Seed, I didn't
know how I would react.
I didn't know how I would do.

(28:46):
Well, when we got to that lastpitch, we actually got off root.
And we were on a record paceafter we went off route and then
got back on route.
We were behind the record pace,so then we just had to really,
really, really start busting itout.
And when we got to the top, Ihad this giant Esprit 11 mil

(29:06):
rope.
Oh my God, the thing was weight.
It was like a steel cable.
It weighed so much and it wasgoing to be most expedient to do
the fastest time for them not tofix that rope.
And for me to clip it to myharness and jug the last pitch
with that rope, clips to myharness and me just jugging the
line that was already going tothe top.
And, you know, that was like,whoa, I wouldn't have known that

(29:31):
I could have found that withinmyself to do that had I not been
there in that position.
And we broke the record by 45minutes.

Kush (29:41):
Hang on.
So is this, is this the recordfor normal body people or is
this the record for.

Wayne (29:47):
No, no.
this was the record.
No, this was the no, and that'swhy it was such a big thing for
me because it was the record forAble Climbers and it was also
the first one day ascent of LCAPby any climber.
And then that opened up the doorto me to start doing other one
day sense.
when I did the nose in a daywith Hans.

(30:07):
I didn't really know how my bodywould react, and then I had, if
it wasn't going to be difficultenough already, I had, uh, some
Jumars given to me by a sponsor,and didn't use my usual, follow
my proper protocol that Inormally would follow and use
the Jumars I usually use.
One of those, and I only broughtone of them, I brought the top

(30:30):
Jumar, and it started failing onme around sickle.
Like four pitches up and startedsliding down the rope and
progressively as we got higherand higher on the rope on the
route It would slide down andslide down and slide down So
that made it way harder, but wewere on about a 13 and a half
hour pace But we still did it inI think it was 22 21 I forget it

(30:54):
was what you know, well under 24Um, not, you know, super far
under, but Hans wasn't too happyabout that because we were on
such a good pace.
but he was a trooper and thatwas incredible.
I didn't know how my body wouldreact without having a Jumar
sliding, but I was able to, youknow, so it's really, it's like
it's changed for me because ofmy improving my situation and

(31:19):
then my situation, you know,Being worse off because of this,
because of that.
So it's really never beenstatic.
It's never been like aconsistent thing or a protracted
period of time.
And so that's really made mywhole climbing career very
interesting.
maybe makes what I haveaccomplished that much more

(31:40):
powerful when I really ruminateon it and really think about it
and really reflect on It

Kush (31:46):
It sounds.
Extraordinary because You havehad to learn how to climb with
all kinds of, let's say, body orbody evolutionary dynamics.
You have had a series ofchanging conditions.
with which you have been able tosomehow cope and retrain

(32:10):
yourself how to climb, yeah,which makes it really remarkable
because none of us, uh, have to,most of us don't have to, you
know, we are dealing with, let'ssay normal day to day or, uh,
let's say aging related or, uh,simple things.
Like I, I am dealing with someof that myself as I get older,
there's some things I can doquite as easily, but it's not

(32:32):
that I can't.
I have had to train myself touse my body in different ways
over a 20 year climbing career.
So I think you've kind of beenon your own, Wayne, in learning
how to, uh, adapt and, uh, keep,keep pushing yourself and keep
honestly pushing the boundariesof climbing.

Wayne (32:53):
Well, you know, I definitely didn't have a
template to follow, but at thesame time, I did know that the
other things that I had done inthe past You know, age group
swimming, surfing, water polo,riding motorcycles, riding
bicycle, you know, hiking, onand off, and I've done a lot of
hiking over the years.
I've done, I've hiked to the topof Half Dome a couple of times,

(33:14):
which is no big deal for theaverage person, but for me, and
once I did it, from my house,car to car, from my house to the
top of Half Dome and back down,um, that was a pretty big, you
know, the other time we had,this is before you couldn't stay
on top of Half Dome, like Ithink it was 1980, um, and we
slept the night on top, that waspretty extraordinary, but I did

(33:36):
it, you know, like, all in apush to the top, and that's a
long way for somebody Who has aleg like mine, but so those, all
of those things all prepared mefor the things that came after
that.
And all of those things thatcame after that prepared me for

(33:56):
where I am now.
So it's not like I ever wanted.
To have greater limitationsimposed, but I didn't have a
choice once those eventstranspired.
And so it was all about how canI make the best of this?
How can I get to be my best?

(34:17):
And, but I think a reallyimportant thing to bring up also
is without the motivation toclimb, Um, without the desire to
try to make good things comefrom all of this, without the
knowledge, knowing that somepeople can actually, and have
actually been inspired by someof my actions, gives me a huge

(34:41):
amount of motivation to do thatextra 30 pull ups that day, you
know, to do 180 pull ups insteadof 150, because when I do get
back up on El Cap, I am going tobe older.
I do have a little bit moresignificant degree of disability
now and I'm going to need to bethe best that I can possibly be.

(35:02):
Now, would I be doing 180 pullups if I wasn't thinking in that
way?
Hell no! You know, there's noway.
And so that, you know, that is alesson that maybe somebody else
can learn.
That's taken me a long time tolearn through all of these
major, major, major injuries andwhatnot.

(35:24):
but I think you get my point.

Kush (35:26):
I think you nailed it.
I think it's the power of goalsetting, which, is shared across
humanity, you you may not wantto go out and.
either do those pull ups or walkthe extra mile or burn the
midnight oil studying if you didnot have a goal to aspire to.
So I think you said it prettyclearly that you didn't want

(35:49):
these challenges.
These challenges came to you andyou reacted to them because
that's the only way you weregoing to be able to meet some of
these goals you had with life.
With climbing with everythingelse that came your way and I I
guess what I'm learning is, youknow there were two ways to go
about it, which is either you goand You know, grab the

(36:11):
proverbial bull by the horns andyou do those those countless
pullups or you don't your goals.
And I think the second is not anoption.
You know, one, one sets goalsand one wants to go after them
and you set a pretty, uh,transformational example of,
what it takes.
And just, I think the power of,aiming high, literally and

(36:34):
figuratively and, uh, did youhave a community vein of, other
differently able climbers withwhich, and, and the reason I ask
is, on a much smaller scale.
So for example, I am, um, I'm anIndian immigrant and I started
climbing in the US.
I sometimes do miss having,let's say other, you know, brown
humans climb with me because Istarted climbing here and I was

(36:56):
like this lone brown guy and,

Wayne (36:58):
Well, at that time, it was a very white dominated
sport.
It was almost all white guys,and now it's changing there's as
many women at the crags as thereare men someday.

Kush (37:08):
Exactly.
And I'm, what I'm saying is, Igot only love and support from
everybody else, but once in awhile I would wonder how would
it be to be climbing with otherpeople of my ethnicity or
background, but I feel like thatin your case, that this is my
naive thinking, did you ever,did you have a community of
differently abled climbers thatyou climbed with back then, or

(37:31):
even today?
who understood the specificityof your challenges, your
experience.

Wayne (37:38):
no, none.
No, I, I, like I told you aboutRoger Breedlove.
I knew, I knew of his story alittle bit.
He actually was a guide inYosemite.
He led clients up Half Dome, Ithink at least three times, the
regular route of Half Dome.
He led every pitch on an ascentof the Salath.
in 75, I think it was.

(38:02):
And, um, he always, he told me,he says, um, I always figured I
had one El Capistan in me and Iwas right, and he could have
done many more, but Rogeractually, is a brilliant,
brilliant, person and was verydedicated to his wife.

(38:24):
and saw the less than positiveaspects of some people's choices
of being really dedicated toclimbing in the seventies and
kind of gave it up and put itoff to the side and really
focused on his career.
And now has two daughters whoare successful, wonderful, you

(38:47):
know, happy, well adjusted.
has a wonderful relationshipwith his wife, has had a great
life.
Is still involved with, climbingonline and has lots of friends
who are climbers.
But I don't think he's reallygot a strong desire to keep
climbing.
I don't know why I do, but I do.
I still want to get up there.

(39:08):
Um, I am not at a place where Ifeel my body is ready to get
back to it, but I know that itis as I've, you know, now that
I'm in my 70s, it's all thatmore impressive to me, it's like
me just continuing on somethingthat I've been doing for a

(39:29):
really long time.
I started climbing in 77.
Which is a lot of years now, um,and there's been blocks of time
where I haven't been able to,but during all of that time,
it's always been a consistentdesire of mine to try to get
back to it, and I mentioned myoil painting, I take a huge
amount of inspiration from myclients and pour it into my

(39:51):
painting.
And I realize that and thatmotivates me to climb even more
because that power that I takefrom that, which infuses all
these different aspects of mylife makes my painting better.
And my painting is so importantto me that even if it's on a
subliminal level, even if it'snot something I'm consciously

(40:14):
thinking about on a regularbasis, it's still there.
you know.
yeah, I mean, those, those arebeautiful things.
Those are wonderful things.
And I don't remember the exactquote from William Blake, but he
said something along the linesof the only right way to
complain is by expressingyourself in a creative manner.

Kush (40:37):
There's some depth, in that one.
And yes, with your painting.
and you're climbing, I have someside hobbies as well and I feel
that when, for example, I dosomething which is non
outdoorsy, I like to go salsadance and do some other kinds of
performing arts stuff and themore I do of that, the more my

(40:59):
hunger for the outdoors grows.
And then when I'm outside, Icome back to my, let's say, more
urban, uh, passions and theystay ignited because of somehow
the, uh, this play between thesetwo different worlds and how
they help me find, uh, balancein my own life.

(41:21):
talking of finding balance,Wayne, you have, been climbing
for a long time and climbing ata very high commitment and
intensity level.
How have you supported yourself?
Uh, what kind of career have youhad that has allowed you to, uh,
pursue this, very highmaintenance passion?

Wayne (41:44):
Well, unfortunately, the postpolio syndrome has limited
me to a great degree in terms ofwhat I may have done otherwise.
I have never been fortunateenough to have, I mean, there
was a time when I thought I wasgoing to have A career doing
public speaking, butunfortunately I had these major

(42:06):
injuries, which made travelreally difficult and made the
postfolios in room worse.
I thought that perhaps throughmaking a film and having some of
my art in it, it would expose myart to a greater audience
because it's so hard.
The art world is so hard tobreak into it.
You really need to be sodedicated and.

(42:27):
Um, and I'm pretty limited inthe number of paintings I can
paint and if you're going to gethooked up with the right agent
and gallery and all of that, youreally need to be really
prolific and really, so all ofthese various different things
that I, I mean, am articulate, Ibelieve I could have done well
if I had the ability to travelwithout impacting my health so

(42:51):
adversely.
If I hadn't have had so manysetbacks and so many injuries,
but that's not the importantthing.
The important thing is that Ihave continued to follow the
things that I felt were mostimportant.
And I have been able to dopretty well with that.

(43:12):
I probably will never have, youknow, success with my art in the
ways that success is, you know,like, it's not necessarily how
good your art is, or how, youknow, successful your art is.
Much it touches people.
It's how much money you can makefrom it or how you can what what

(43:33):
you know How you can sellwhatever it is And that's
capitalism and that's how itworks.
I understand that But I've beenreally lucky to have been able
to have people who reallybelieved in me So I was able to
do my climbs with friends who?
You weren't expecting greatcompensation.

(43:55):
And if I gave them one of mypaintings, they were thrilled
with that.
Whereas someone else may havehad to hire a guide or two
guides, find a way to haveporters.
So I've really done all of myadventures really on the cheap,
you know, like I have done it inways that were sustainable for

(44:15):
me, for my particular situation.

Kush (44:17):
makes a lot of sense.
You know, you were able to gift.
Unique items, if I may, topeople, labors of love, and in
return, people like Hans andothers were able to share a part
of their craft.
their time and their labor oflove with you.

(44:38):
So, to me, this is also part ofthe beauty of, the climbing
community, at least how it usedto be.
I think still is in manyrespects where people will
recognize a shared passion andkindred spirits and want to do
things together because.

(44:58):
There is just that shared lovefor, uh, for the sport moving
on, um, before we close this,the chapter out any goals you
have with climbing that you arestill fired up about
specifically, you already havedone.
El cap, I think over 20 times.

(45:19):
Are you trying to tick all themajor, uh, roots on El Cap?
Are there any other ones whichburn your fire?

Wayne (45:26):
No, basically at a point now where I probably am going to
wrap LCAP the next time I do itrather than doing the big hike
down from the top.
And it's very likely that I willend up doing a root on the far

(45:49):
west face and that way, um, Ican wrap, you know, do a root
over there on the far left sideon the west face and then wrap
down and I have a root Chosen towrap down that's pretty direct
and that way I won't have to doit'll make it so much easier

(46:10):
Once I top out I won't have todo the long hike and come around
and then it not only will beeasier for me It'll
hypothetically should make iteasier for my partners because
all we're doing it.
I can't actually repel I have tobe lowered And I have a pretty
good system that I use where Iclip a sling to my sit harness,

(46:30):
wrap it around my line I'm beinglowered on.
Well, there's already a line.
The first person has gone down,so there's a line going to the
anchor.
So I just put the sling aroundthat, clip it to my harness, and
then the sling directs mestraight down to the anchor.
I just have to be lowered.
And then I use my hands on thewall, and so I pretty much am

(46:53):
not necessarily thinking interms of the longest route, the
hardest route, I'm just thinkingof how can I stack the, and then
I also really want to do it inunder 24 hours.
and so that's kind of where I'mthinking, but I haven't said to
myself, if I don't do it, then Iwill have failed my life No,

(47:18):
it's all predicated on how muchimprovement I can find
physically, how good of health Ican get myself back into, and I
am improving all the time.
And so that's something that's areally big thing for me.
is trying to keep that balancegoing while I still achieve

(47:38):
goals.
And then there's lots of other,routes on other formations that
are out there.
El Cap isn't my only thing thatI have in my mind, I definitely
would like to climb the chiefagain, I may go back and do
another route in the blackCanyon.
Am I going to climb the diamondagain?
No, definitely not.

(47:59):
Um, that's, oh, yeah, I mean,and I've done it four times,
which is a lot, I only know ofone other adaptive climber who
has done the diamond, AaronRalston, who, you know, the, the
film that was made about his,his experience in the desert,
and he did it with my friendTimmy O'Neill, and he said after

(48:19):
That ascent, that that was thehardest thing he had ever done
in his life by the power of ten,climbing the diamond.

Kush (48:27):
Sure.

Wayne (48:28):
and then the elevation too.

Kush (48:30):
absolutely.
you mentioned Timmy.
And I know Timmy as well.
And I know Timmy is, deeplyinvolved with Paradox Sports,
organization that

Wayne (48:42):
Well, he and Mal were the ones who started it.
Malcolm Bowie.

Kush (48:46):
he started it.
what I'm coming to is yourselfas an adaptive athlete, have you
been able to inspire, guide,train other adaptive climbers or
adaptive athletes either throughParadox or outside?

(49:06):
Because I'm sensing there aremany people out there who would.
adaptive or otherwise, who wouldbenefit from your, uh, tutelage,
but specifically if there arepeople in that community who
have had the benefit of learningfrom you.

Wayne (49:21):
I've been sharing knowledge with adaptive climbers
and with people who are helpingother adaptive climbers for many
decades.
And I actually am in the processof.
Helping somebody right now whois working on a project, yeah,
it's something that's reallymeaningful to me knowing that, I
still, even when one day I won'tbe able to climb anymore, I

(49:43):
still will have knowledge that Ican impart that can be helpful
to someone else, but I thinkeven bigger than that, Or maybe
it's not bigger than that, but Ithink another element that is
very powerful in this wholeequation is the fact that I am
able to find the way, you know,these ways in terms of having

(50:07):
these injuries, but still comingback and doing this and that
example is something that, andthen also the fact that, you
know, you know, I was the firstadaptive climber to climb the
diamond.
I was the first adaptive climberto climb the chief.
I was the first adaptiveclimber, I believe, to do a
route in Zion.
And if I wasn't, I was with thatroute.
We did it in like 10 and a halfhours.

(50:29):
So I did the first one dayascent there.
you know, I've done lots of oneday ascents of routes that, Are
very meaningful knowing that wasthe first time, like talking
about it sometimes kind of takessome of the power away from it,
but, it's, you know, it's noteasy for me just to make it

(50:49):
through your average day, like Ialmost fall over and do fall
over just in my kitchen tryingto make dinner.
I, but, you know, If I'm stillable to accomplish these things
that are seen as goals, that,oh, I'm not saying this well at

(51:09):
all, but I will say, I willbasically say that, there's a
quote from the Ojibwe that Ilike to remind myself of, and it
goes, sometimes I go aboutpitying myself, and all of the
time I am being carried by agreat wind the side.
And when I am in that place,carrying that gratitude with me,

(51:35):
it enriches my life in so manydifferent ways.
And that's a beautiful thing,and that's something that also I
think makes me want to continueon this path as long as I can,
because it's just part of who Iam at this point.

Kush (51:53):
the quote is powerful and being able to understand the
code find meaning andapplicability is what makes it,
real and, and profound.
You have accomplished a lot, alot, a lot, a lot.
any major sacrifices to haveachieved this life?

Wayne (52:15):
Well, I think anyone who accomplishes anything that's
outside the realm of what fitsinto the, like, sort of, the
square hole, square peg goes inthe square hole, the round peg,
anytime that you're gettingoutside of that anytime you're
doing something that's in thearts, you were talking about,
you have an interest in, itsounded like Music perhaps,

Kush (52:39):
Music and performing arts, dancing, etc.

Wayne (52:43):
So anytime you're involved in any other, any
discipline of any kind, andespecially creative disciplines,
it takes a lot of effort and alot of time to be able to do
that enough to actually becomegood at it, to actually become
proficient at it enough to beinvolved with other people who

(53:08):
are proficient at it, When Iclimbed Lurking Fear with Steve
Schneider in 94, what made himwant to go up there with me was
the fact that I had climbed thediamond earlier that year.
And he was like, If you climbthe diamond, El Cap is going to
be a party.
And I climbed the diamond, thefirst time I climbed the
diamond, we got hit by a majorstorm.

(53:30):
We were up there in snow, sleet,hail, 110 mile an hour gusts of
wind.
I jumarred through a waterfallfor hours.
And I mean, it was epic, truly.
Like, I'm not exaggerating.
It was epic.
And then I had to be carried inand carried out.
I mean, those guys, my friendswho helped with all of that,

(53:52):
Michael O'Donnell, Bill Witt,Pat O'Donnell helped organize,
the guys who carried, a lot ofthem took off when the storm
hit, Pat helped to carry me.
It was wild, the level ofcommitment.
and it's the same thing withother disciplines.
For, For, you to have,Accomplished something

(54:14):
worthwhile.
It took a lot of sacrifices toaccomplish that, but then that
is part of the foundation thatyou build on that leads to what
comes after that.

Kush (54:27):
Certainly.

Wayne (54:28):
yeah, it's, you know, there's nothing that's worth
doing that is easy.
I think that's, that probablysays it, you know, succinctly,
all of those paragraphs that Ijust said.
You can encapsulate it all inthat one little statement.

Kush (54:43):
It sure does.
Any Regrets, Wayne, to achievethis life.

Wayne (54:51):
Well, I re I regret having chosen to be around
people that I maybe wouldn'thave been around because I was
trying to help someone indifferent times and have been
seriously injured as a result ofthose instances.
But at the same time, I did havean open heart.
I was in those situations withan open heart, and just because

(55:11):
someone took advantage of mehaving an open heart doesn't
mean that I should close myheart off.
but you can always look at lifeand go back and hindsight's
always 20 20.
But at the same time, you know,by, having that sort of
mentality, then nothing's, youknow, you're, you're always

(55:33):
going to be saying, Oh, I couldhave done this.
I could have done that.
This could have been so muchbetter instead of reveling in
what we're able to accomplishand taking all of that energy
and putting it into movingforward.
And making good things come fromwhat you learn from all of the,
because sometimes you have tofail to learn really valuable

(55:58):
lessons.
Some, as a scientist, you may do10, 000 experiments that none of
them go the way you want themto.
But on the 10, 001, you know,boom, it's there, you know.
Whatever it was.
Oh, I put too much of this in,or whatever, and, and that was,

(56:18):
you know, what made me realize Ishould have been doing this all
along, You know what I'm saying.

Kush (56:23):
I'm fortunate that I am, I'm a little bit more mature
now.
I'm, I'm 45.
That I can appreciate whatyou're saying.
I think 10 years ago, I, I wouldnot have had the maturity to
appreciate that because Irecognize that all these things.
that I've done and all myexperiences, whatever label I

(56:43):
might give them, make me theperson I am and enable me to
move forward with all thelearnings and the lessons.
Interestingly, I talked to thisreally high-performing marathon
runner a few days ago, who's inhis fifties and he only started
running a few years ago.
So one of his obvious regretscan be, yes, if I had started

(57:05):
running at 15 and not 45.
But then he said he may notappreciate running as much.
He may have, lost the fire andquit.
So I really feel that mostthings in life are exactly what
you said.
They shape us into who we aretoday.
So thank you for helping meappreciate that even, More.

Wayne (57:29):
Oh, it's my great pleasure.
I certainly would like to thinkthat there is still the
possibility for me to come backfor someone in my physical
circumstances and my age,because I do need to acknowledge
the fact you know, getting intoyour 70s is an accomplishment.

(57:50):
I've outlived myself.
A lot of my contemporaries Ioutlived, a lot of people who
are much younger than myself,and so that alone is an
accomplishment.
but I think that, you know,basically, the thinking that led
me to try to accomplish thingsthat I have accomplished in the

(58:11):
past, in terms of, Not listeningto the voice of some other
individual who, I mean, when Ifirst started climbing and first
started talking about El Cap,there were supporters and there
were those who said, Oh, you'vedone this, you've done that.

(58:34):
I can totally see you having thedrive and being somebody.
And then there were others thatwere like, Oh man, I've been
climbing for this many years anddah, dah, dah, I know I'm never
going to be able to do it, whatmakes you think you'll be able
to do it?

Kush (58:48):
Hmm

Wayne (58:48):
So had I listened, I was wise enough to listen to the
former rather than the lattervoices, and that was what
allowed me to continue tobelieve that the goals that I
have were achievable.
And I think that's true ofanyone, whether they're able,

(59:10):
whether they're disabled,there's all kinds of
disabilities, more and morepeople are talking about, they
deal with whatever it is, youknow, I could throw out so many
different things, um, there'smore people on medication than
there's ever been.
I firmly believe a lot of thosepeople don't need to be on
medication and especially peoplewho are on things like, you

(59:32):
know, high blood pressuremedication or people who are pre
diabetic because they've eatenthemselves.
It's not necessarily that theywere born with whatever the con,
you know, childhood diabetes or,you know, some, it's behavioral.
It's if you exercise, if you eata healthy diet, If you try to

(59:53):
think good thoughts, if youmeditate, if you surround
yourself with good people, theyseem like basic easy things.
But unfortunately a lot ofpeople, it just seems to escape
them.
They seem incapable of beingable to do that.
And we live in a society wheremore and more and more things
just seem to be so out ofbalance.
And there's just such a senseof, anyway, I don't mean to

(01:00:18):
sound too cynical.
But it's not necessarily just mewho's, you know, expressing
that.
And so that makes all of theseother connections and all of
these other, you know, justgoing for a walk in the forest
and being around some wildlifeand nature, you know, just the
beauty of nature, the stars, themoon.

(01:00:40):
Uh, I'm lucky enough to livenear where on my hikes, I get to
look at.
At Mount Hood, Mount St.
Helens.
I mean, these are gloriousthings that easily can be taken
for granted.
But that's kind of the point isyou want to be in a place where
you don't take things forgranted.
Where you do feel like much ofeach of your days is worth

(01:01:05):
celebrating and creating eventsthat I mean, when I get off
this, when I finished with thisinterview with you, I can't wait
to work on this painting I'vebeen working on.
And I felt that way before westarted, but I feel even more
that way now.
And that's a beautiful thing.

Kush (01:01:22):
110% with everything you said.
moving on, Wayne in the lastfive years.
What new belief, behavior orhabit has most improved improved
your life?

Wayne (01:01:37):
Well, the last 5 years were quite years ago, it'll be
seven years ago in April.
I, should I say who it was thatit happened with?
There was a person who I wasaround.
Who I've been very kind to, whoisn't the highest functioning
person in the world, and I wentto give them a hug, they were

(01:02:00):
sitting in a little chair, andthis person grabbed me around my
neck, and pulled themselves up.
And then fell back down, butdidn't let go of my head and
popped my neck out of place.

(01:02:21):
My atlas completely out of placeand then everything popped out
of place all the way to my righthip.
Well, I had just broken a recordon a route in Zion, I, this and
that and the other.
I was the fittest I'd been inyears, the strongest, the most
vital, my health was the best.
Anyway, that sent me into aspiral of ill health and all

(01:02:45):
these problems, and I keptclimbing in spite of the fact
that my hip was completely outof place, and did two ascents of
the chief, did the first one dayascent of a route, did two
ascents of El Cap, did, um,Zodiac in 17 and a half hours.
luckily I, you know, had reallystrong partners for that one and

(01:03:07):
actually even had to stop for anhour at one point because I, my
body was in so much pain and Ijust had to, you know, and then
after that I had more injuriesand then after that I had more
injuries and I brought myselfback from that.
my wife's father had a terminalillness and her mother has

(01:03:29):
issues and had to move to a carefacility at the same time that
her dad had this terminalillness and we actually moved
here to care for him.
And we're able to keep him inhome and give him good care.
And unfortunately, at the end ofthat event, I was injured by

(01:03:50):
someone else, um, assaulted andseriously injured.
And this is something that goeson with people with disabilities
quite frequently, sadly.
And you don't really hear aboutit.
And the numbers are vastly underrepresentative of actually what
does transpire because most Um,but with all of that said, I

(01:04:14):
know that I could have let allof that completely destroy me
and completely, you know, justmake me give up, and just say,
okay, I'm done with this.
You know, enough is enough.
Like, I can't, I'm, I'm only sostrong, I can only put up a, but
no, I, I knew that if I kept ontrying to find improvement, kept

(01:04:37):
on trying to improve, that Iwould find improvement.
I didn't know how much, but now,I'm now getting to the point
where, and I've had some morefalls and more injuries, and,
but, I am getting to the pointnow where I'm starting to feel
better, where I'm getting morevital, where doing things isn't
as difficult as it was, where Ican see myself actually climbing

(01:04:59):
again.
And having a really good timedoing it and I've got all these
great friends who believe in meand wants to climb with me and
that alone is an extraordinarything at any age for someone
with my degree of disability,but especially somebody who's
71, you know, like, and that's,and that's a powerful thing.

(01:05:23):
That's a beautiful thing.
And not just because it's mewho's in this body, but just
talking about it and trying tosee it.
From outside myself, like.
Yeah, that's, that's, that's apretty great thing.
Like, yeah.
So that makes me really lookforward.
I take the weekends off fromtraining, but it really makes me

(01:05:43):
look forward to Monday.
Like I'm excited on Monday.
I'm going to get back to my pullups.
I'm going to get back and doanother wonderful hike.
Um, I'm going to see some of myfriends out on the trail who
I've been making, you know, allthese wonderful people who have
all these great things going onin their life.
A lot of them are creativepeople, a lot of them, but the

(01:06:06):
thing that we all share is weall love nature, we all love
being out there, and thosethings are easy to take for
granted, if you see it from theright way, it's, it's like a
miraculous, it's extraordinary,and so that's what I try to do
on as many days as I can, Is tohave this sense of how blessed I

(01:06:31):
am, how incredibly beautifulthis world is and can be in
spite of all of the less thanwonderful things that exist.
But ever has it been so, youknow, when was there ever a time
when, I mean, in ancient Rome,you could go and buy a disabled

(01:06:52):
person as your own personalscapegoat, you know, this isn't
a new thing, people abusingpeople with disabilities, um, I
just happened to be one of many,you know, through the centuries
of humanity, but am I going tolet those events define me?
No.
And that's the difference interms of your thinking and in

(01:07:16):
terms of your attitude.
And if I can share that withsomeone else, and that can help
to allow them to learn thoselessons.
I've had to go through so muchto learn.
Wow.
How beautiful is that?
How blessed am I?

Kush (01:07:36):
You said something when that.
caught my ear.
The ability to observe oneselffrom the outside.
I started and have been able tokeep up for the most part a
meditation practice and I amtrying to develop that ability
of being able to just dissociatemyself and being able to observe

(01:07:59):
and be more self aware.
When I heard you say that, itmade me wonder if You are, let's
say, religious or you have aspiritual practice of your own
that gives you this ability.

Wayne (01:08:16):
Well, I think that I do consciously try to set aside
time to meditate each day, and Ialso see my hikes as a walking
meditation.
I see my painting as a form ofmeditation and at my best, when
I am really, really diving,really diving deeply into that

(01:08:42):
pool of the color and thetextures and the brushstrokes
and the designs and thepatterns, and it all becomes
something that lifts me up to ahigher place that I would be if
If I wasn't following thatdiscipline, if I wasn't, and
then I've been doing this fordecades and decades and decades.

(01:09:04):
And I've learned so much aboutbreath control when I'm holding
the brush.
I've learned so much aboutbreath control when I'm
climbing, when I'm hiking,shutting off the internal
dialogue to the degree that I'mable and being the observer.
And listening to my intuitiontoo, which is a big part of the

(01:09:27):
whole equation, not just beingpurely driven by my analytical
thoughts and feeling when I'm,for instance, when I'm sometime,
I mean, I've been on hikes andscrambling third classing where

(01:09:47):
it's like almost, Like I'm goingto take a fall and I feel
weightless somehow.
And it's almost like invisiblehands helping me or something.
And I don't want to make toomuch out of it, but I've
experienced it so many times.
It's like, okay, I don't wantto.
Like say that was this or, youknow, defining it in certain
terms, like, but just being opento the possibility or

(01:10:12):
possibilities of there being somuch more than what we know and
especially in our society todayLike I was talking about there's
so much the superficial Iscelebrated where not only is the
superficial celebrated, but theartificial, all the people who

(01:10:32):
are having all this plasticsurgery and all these women in
their twenties, not, not evenwaiting until their thirties
that are having plastic surgery.
You know, fillers and all, andit's just you know, it's
antithetical to what I'm talkingyou know, because you're so
focused on, you think that thereare so many things that we can

(01:10:54):
focus on that will bring so manyblessings to us in so many ways.
That you're limiting yourself byfollowing, and I don't mean to,
you know, make too much out ofall of that.
I didn't really mean to go ontoo much about know, but I was
just trying to kind of make thatpoint.
know, I could have easily said,at different times, like, this

(01:11:19):
is You know, like if I hadn'tbeen trying to do whatever it
was, this person wouldn't havewanted to try to stop me from
doing but at the same time,maybe that gives more power to
what I'm doing.
In a certain way, because whatI'm doing must really, anyway,

(01:11:39):
you know, I don't mean to maketoo much out of any of it, but
at the same time, the world isthis incredibly out of balance,
you know, Hopi, you know, theKoyaanisquatsi, the prophecy,
life out of balance, you know,life out of balance, we are in
the midst of this incredible,this time of life being
incredibly out of balance.
So how do you try to find a wayto find balance?

(01:12:03):
And especially when you're asout of balance in terms of my
physical reality, making me needall of these device braces
whatnot and poles just to beable to ambulate, yet not saying
that's enough and saying, I wantto still be able to do this, and

(01:12:25):
that's what we are all trying todo at our best, is trying to
raise ourselves up to a levelthat's above where we are now,
and then we have a new baseline,and then try to raise ourselves
back up.
Up above that, and you can onlydo it for so long because we do
live in white bodies that have ashelf life, you know, but at the

(01:12:46):
same time, I think that thereare more possibilities for doing
that as you age now than therehas ever been with medical
advances with more knowledgeabout, you know, Nutrition with,
you know, I could go on and onwith it,

Kush (01:13:00):
Absolutely.
we've gone on for some time,just a couple of final fun
questions before we let you getback to your painting.
What's been the best 100 youspent in recent memory?

Wayne (01:13:16):
see.
Hmm.
What is the best hundred dollarsI've spent in recent memory?

Kush (01:13:22):
have to be that exact number, but

Wayne (01:13:25):
No, no.
no.
I, I, I'm trying to think Ibought it.
I bought a few things we boughtthis house and have, you know,
I've done a lot of work to it,and it's a little bit bigger
than the space we had before, soI bought a few little cool
things on Facebook Marketplace.
I got this little Thai Buddhathat somebody, you know, but,
um, I haven't really bought anyclimbing gear.
I really haven't bought anypaint.

(01:13:47):
That's, those are the thingsthat are kind of meaningful.
Like, you know, oh, I know, Idid buy a new pair of, I gave a
pair of my hiking poles that Ihad been using.
To somebody who I thought coulduse them and did get a new pair
of hiking poles.
It's ironic.
I've learned that the, I won'tsay name brands, but the more
expensive hiking poles areworking.

(01:14:09):
less effectively for me thanonce I'm finding that are more
like in the 30, 27 range.
they're actually larger incircumference, so they give you
more support.
They have a larger handle, thesereally wonderful core candles.
Do your due diligence when youbuy hiking poles when you do a

(01:14:29):
Google search and you might findsome really great ones that work
really well.
Oh, I know.
I bought another pair of hikingpoles from a young woman who has
a disability who is um havingand I've been working talking a
little bit with this filmmakerwho's working with her and he's
doing a film project and isfilming all of her climbs and

(01:14:50):
she's been using crutches and acane to get around and when I
heard that I was like You Dude,send me your address.
So I bought a pair for her andjust sent her a pair of those.

Kush (01:15:02):
Feel free to share the name.
I mean, we give them credit,this brand that's providing
great value for

Wayne (01:15:08):
Oh, let's see.
What is it?
I have to go and get it.
It's over here.
Let me go and get the poll.

Kush (01:15:13):
Oh, don't, don't worry about it.
don't worry about it.
You can, you can send it to melater.
It's all good.
It's all good.

Wayne (01:15:17):
Okay, you can find them easily enough if you do a Google
search.
Hiking polls.
under 30 and it's amazing.
They come with tips that arejust as good as the expensive
ones.
They work really well and theygive me more stability when I
gave away the one pair I wastalking about when I had a few
days going back to my, I won'tsay the name of the company.

(01:15:38):
The ones that were thinner andsmaller handles, I was
struggling and I, there were sostumbling more.
And then when I got the new onesback that were more robust and
sturdier, it was like, yeah,made really made me appreciate
them that much more.

Kush (01:15:54):
I never did used to.
Bring hiking poles on, uh, hikesattracts.
But recently I did bordersomebody spoils on a track and
Peru and, uh, I am converted.
Hiking poles are great.
if there was a giant billboardand you could write a message
for humanity, what would it say?

Wayne (01:16:14):
It would probably be one of my paintings.
Cause that was actually a bigthing that I was motivated to do
at one time was do murals, butunfortunately my physical
reality, limited what I, youknow, my grand ideas were never
able to.
but yeah, I would be doing oneof my, I actually have a friend
who is a muralist who hasoffered to do one of my
paintings as a mural, but itwould be a matter of, you going

(01:16:36):
through, jumping through a lotof hoops and a lot of effort and
a lot of time.
And lately, my time has been,You know, really limited, just
trying to take care of all of,recover from these major
injuries, trying to, create anew life for ourselves, trying
to find.
you know, balance with all ofthe other things that are going

(01:16:57):
on.
but yeah, that would be reallycool to see one of my paintings
as a big billboard.
That would be a wonderfulmessage to share, because I
think that paintings and imagescarry so much more power.
Then number of

Kush (01:17:15):
Mm-Hmm.
.Mm-Hmm.
it's true.
You know what they say?
A picture is worth so many morethan just words.
Yes.

Wayne (01:17:23):
a thousand words At the same time I was reading the
amount of time the averageperson spends in front of a
painting in a museum And it'sabysmal.
It's like You know, a really,really small, small, small, time
measurements.

Kush (01:17:37):
I have a personal pet peeve with the way museums are
designed.
I think they seem to be designedto get you in and out.
As quickly as possible.

Wayne (01:17:45):
You know, it depends on the country you're in, if you're
in England, if you're in London,the Tate, one of the best
museums in the world is free.
you know, American museums don'tget the same kind of financial
help from our government as somegovernments give to.
They're, you know, the cultural,but anyway, but basically, yeah,

(01:18:06):
I think that a lot of museums,that's how they survive is by
having big shows with highlyregarded, big named artists, and
that doesn't just draw thepeople who are normal patrons of
the museum, it brings in peoplefrom the periphery, and that's
how they generate more income,and how they're able to sustain

(01:18:27):
themselves.
So I understand, I see that sideof it, but I also really
appreciate the museums who tryto create an environment where
you can go there.
And really be touched and movedand carry something with you
that you didn't have before youwent and saw whatever exhibition

(01:18:50):
or painting or paintings or,know, combination of paintings.

Kush (01:18:54):
Absolutely.
And final question.
What is one meal that you couldeat every day?

Wayne (01:19:02):
Well, you're going to appreciate this.
How about we have this, we'rereally blessed to have this
incredible new Indian restaurantwho has opened not far from us.
and their chicken biryani.
I just had some last night.
Oh my god, it's to die for.
All of these incredible spices,and the aromas, and the
combination, and the flavors,and the textures.

Kush (01:19:25):
I've been hearing, wondrous things about the,
diversity and the quality ofcuisine in Portland

Wayne (01:19:32):
Portland has the best food scene in America.
And part of it again is thepower is the bee, the, city
government is making it easy forpeople to have food carts and
they've just opened up a newsection downtown, um, to try to
bring more people back downtownand to have more choices for the
workers that are workingdowntown because a lot of

(01:19:54):
restaurants have closed.
but it's really a blessing tohave so many ethnic restaurants
in particular Oh, which SriLankan place did you go to?
Like, there's like five of themor something, you know, it's,
it's pretty extraordinary.
It's pretty extraordinary.
And it's not historicallysomething that ever used to

(01:20:14):
exist here because the foodchoices here in the past were
not so great, generally.
Yeah.
And so that makes it all themore powerful And makes us
appreciate it all that muchmore.

Kush (01:20:25):
Wow.
All that food conversation ismaking me hungry.
Wayne it's been a pleasurespeaking to you.
Thank you.
so much.
Have a lovely evening.
Holy moly.
What a wildly inspirationaldude, Wayne Willoughby is
despite all the brutal physicalchallenges he's faced since

(01:20:48):
basically being a baby, hispsych and zest for the outdoors
are just.
Unreal.
From clawing his way his way tobecoming the first adaptive
climber.
To crash, heart corrals, like.
The nose on El cap and thediamond in the day.
To finding creative ways to keepcrushing after every new injury
and setback.

(01:21:08):
We're in the accomplishments arestraight up mind melting.
And get this.
He's still setting goals andtraining his ass off at 71
years.
Young.
Whether you are a diehardclimber, or just someone who
needs a boost to attack your ownwildest ambitions.
Let Wayne story light that fire.
And his words, there's nothingworth doing.

(01:21:29):
That's easy.
Time to get after it.
If you haven't left a review forthe ages athlete.
The podcast on your favoriteapp, whether it's apple podcasts
or Spotify or whatever.
Please do it now.
I really would appreciate it.
Until next time, my good friendsstay adventurous.

(01:21:50):
Stay humble.
stay ageless.

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#15 Wayne Willoughby - From Severe Disability to Big Wall Summits, an Adaptive Rock Climber's Transformative Story

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}#15 Wayne Willoughby - From Severe Disability to Big Wall Summits, an Adaptive Rock Climber's Transformative Story