August 27, 2023 • 34 mins
Ever wondered about the secret world of ghostwriting? Pull up a chair, sip on some coffee, and join us for an engaging discussion with Douglas Glenn Clark, a seasoned professional from this intriguing field. From his early days as a journalist to the reality of penning words for others, Douglas takes us on a fascinating exploration of what a ghostwriter does when it comes to writing work for others. We also unravel the art of ghostwriting, shedding light on how it helps authors express their narratives, and uncover some well-known books with unexpected ghostwriters behind them!
In the second half, we dive into the world of pen names, a tool that authors use to create different identities. You'll be hooked as we chat about notable authors such as J.K. Rowling and Stephen King’s son who utilized pseudonyms to distance themselves from their famous works or families. Furthermore, we delve into the intricate web of ghostwriting contracts, the potential monetary value in writing, and the risky but often necessary decisions of ghostwriters to accept pay for a book instead of waiting for royalties. By the end of this episode, you will have an understanding of the ghostwriting industry, making it a must-listen for anyone interested in the writing world.
(This podcast episode was shortened for time. Please visit the full video on YouTube if you'd like to hear more).
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Music By Geovane Bruno, Moments, 3481
Editing by Team A-J
Host, Carmen Lezeth
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Here we go.
This is how we do it.
Speaker 2 (00:02):
We just this is how we Okay.
Copyrighted can't docopyrighted.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
I know it is copyrighted.
Hey, everyone, welcome to AllAbout the Joy.
We're so glad to have you here,rick, high as always Hello,
hello, but I wanna welcomeDouglas.
How are you?
I'm so glad you're here and onthe show.
Speaker 3 (00:20):
Well thanks for having me yeah, and I'm doing
great Doing great Welcome.
Speaker 1 (00:25):
So I wanna welcome our guest and I wanna tell
everyone who he is before westart interviewing him.
But Douglas Glenn Clark, who Ikept calling Glenn, I think
forever.
We met back in.
I don't know if we met, but wetalked in 2016,.
Right, and forgive me, becauseI know it has something to do
(00:46):
with the AMR Foundation, where Iworked with Arlene Rosen, but
what do you remember?
Because I was really trying tofigure out how we connected.
Speaker 3 (00:57):
You know I'm in the same boat with you.
I remember Tashi and beingconnected and thinking how did
that happen?
Speaker 1 (01:08):
I think it was through the foundation.
So here's what I remember.
For me, it's really importantto kind of always have context
while I bring people on the show.
You were helping us or you weregoing to help us with our
website and our press release.
That's the only thing that Iremember and that's how we
started talking and at somepoint we went back and forth on
(01:30):
LinkedIn.
That's what I remember.
Speaker 3 (01:31):
Yeah, and I was writing for businesses primarily
back then.
Speaker 1 (01:36):
Right.
So here's my thing.
We're going to talk about youbeing a ghost writer, but I want
to talk about how you startedwriting to begin with, like did
you know as a kid?
Did it happen to you some othertime?
Tell me, when did you becomeinspired to become a writer?
Speaker 3 (01:52):
Well, you know, oddly enough, when I was very young,
I had three things I wanted todo, and they were all in the
arts performing, making somemusic.
My father was a musician, okay,and I wanted to write a book.
Now, no one in my family was anauthor.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (02:15):
I have no idea why so young maybe 12, I had this
distinct choice or made thesedistinct choices and I proceeded
.
Speaker 1 (02:28):
But you didn't just proceed.
You're not like everyone alwayssays, I'm a writer, but you're
a writer of everything.
You've done screenplays, you'vedone, a play on Broadway,
you've done books, you've doneI'm trying to remember
everything that was on yourwebsite but you've written in
every genre.
(02:49):
You also write music, which Ithought was mind-blowingly crazy
, but I think that's prettyunique, to have kind of such an
overall love of the art that youcan fit in every genre.
Speaker 3 (03:04):
Well, thank you, I'm having to look back now.
You're right, you, all thosethings, and it's been so odd to
start in one place and then, 10years later, you touched all
these different bases.
Speaker 2 (03:23):
I think one of the best things that happened to me,
though.
Speaker 3 (03:26):
I began writing as a playwright and I had some plays
done, got some grants and thosesorts of steps forward.
But when I became a journalistwhich I did kind of through the
back door I didn't go toColumbia Journalism School but
when that started I really feltthat that taught me how to write
(03:48):
professionally, in the sensethat there were gonna be some
tough deadlines.
I was sure they have to drawfrom interviews and research and
various points of reference tobe able to create something.
And I use all of that todaybecause eventually newspapers
died yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:10):
Or they're still dying.
They're still dying.
There's some holding on.
There are some holding on.
Speaker 3 (04:15):
Yeah, and they certainly have made a rebound
because I was working for theLos Angeles Daily News.
And as a turn of the century.
I mean when the internet roseand it all was glory and
everything had to be free.
Speaker 2 (04:31):
Right.
Speaker 3 (04:32):
But since then, yeah, I mean jobs were lost then and
I had no future in journalismthen as a daily newspaper guy.
Speaker 1 (04:40):
Oh, wow, okay.
Speaker 3 (04:42):
So that forced me into freelancing, thank you.
Led to boss and Led to you andI meeting because I was ready
for businesses.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
Yeah, so tell me about your business and Okay,
but here's the thing I, you know, I had to do some research on
the whole ghost writing thing.
So of course I know Rick hasquestions too, but I think it's,
I Think it's I don't want tosay weird, but that's the word
coming out of my mouth For youto go from being this journalist
(05:15):
and being you know I were wereyou also a reporter, because you
said you were interviewing too.
So you were a reporter.
How did you end up becoming aghost writer, which first?
Can we tell people what thatmeans?
Because I didn't realize howextensive of a definition that
was.
Speaker 3 (05:33):
Yeah, you know, it's why it is still a mystery, I
don't know, but it does.
Oh, it creates some anxietysometimes and the people are
right for and Other people arefine with it and they just need
some help.
Right?
Basically, a ghost writer helps, the author will call the
(05:56):
author to be a business person,theater person, whomever Decides
they want to tell their story.
Yeah, so they, they need help.
They don't have the time or theskills.
And I got into ghost writingbecause at one point I realized
how do I, if I'm going tofreelance, how do I describe
(06:18):
what I do?
I can't, I can't have 20 thingsthat I say I do.
Right, and I finally settled on.
You know, I have written somany people's story as a news
writer.
I Can write your book.
Speaker 1 (06:34):
So, yeah, I was shocked to find out.
I was heartbroken today and,like I want you to walk me
through this, I was looking upbooks that were Written by other
people, ghost written, right.
So some of the famous ones wealready know, which everyone no
one is surprised by this one, Itell you, but the art of the
deal by Donald Trump wasactually by Tony Schwartz, and
(06:59):
Tony Schwartz has then said he'sregretted writing that or
whatever.
So I want to get into that in aminute, not so much about the
Trump part or the Tony Schwartzpart, but about, kind of, how do
you go through that processwith the author?
I am Malala, so Malala, who weall love, right, she's an
amazing young woman.
(07:20):
Her book was also ghost writtenby Christina Lam, who's a
foreign correspondent, right.
But here's the one that I washeartbroken about, because it's
one of my favorite books andactually I love the idea of it
was profiles and courage.
Yeah, is how did I not knowthat that was a book that was
(07:41):
ghost written?
Ted Sorensen, that's right.
Ted Sorensen wrote, yeah,profiles and courage.
So how do you deal with that?
Do you does?
Does anyone know that you arethe ghost, that you are the
actual writer.
Does the author take over thework?
How does it work?
Speaker 2 (08:01):
Yeah, I would say too , could we for like the
seven-year-old watching and youjust said ghost, right, like, oh
, is it ghost stories?
No, sweetheart, like explainyeah what it means?
I think a lot people stilldon't know what that means.
Speaker 3 (08:14):
Well, the ghost means I Need to be invisible mmm.
You like, let's start with JFK.
Mm-hmm.
That book won the PulitzerPrize and and everyone thought,
oh, yeah, wonderful.
We have such a literatepolitical leader and he wins the
(08:35):
Pulitzer as well as becomingwell-known and eventually to the
White House.
Well, how do you?
Speaker 1 (08:43):
How do you deal with that?
Speaker 3 (08:44):
How does JFK then say oh, by the way.
I didn't write it, or the sonor Pierre Salinger, whoever they
thought at the time, how?
Speaker 1 (08:52):
does he?
Speaker 3 (08:53):
give up the identity of being a writer and it pull a
surprise when you write that.
That's tricky.
Speaker 1 (09:01):
Just kind of explain it in a different way, because I
think that's what Rick isgetting at a ghost writer in the
layman's term.
My, my way of looking at it isif you're a business, or you're
somebody who has an idea of abook but you're not a writer, or
you don't have the time and youdon't really want to sit down
and, you know, write all thesechapters out, whatever you hire
(09:23):
somebody else to write the book,I'm gonna say with you, but it
is kind of for you, isn't it?
I mean, that's where it getsconfusing.
That's, yeah, kennedy thing.
Speaker 3 (09:35):
Well, there are so many different situations.
For example, I have a newclient and he very successful
businessman, but he was a verysuccessful young college athlete
.
Okay and that's part of whatmakes the story unique and fun.
But we were on the phone theother day and we've just started
(09:56):
.
He said by the way, doug, yourname is gonna be on the front
cover with my name, and I rarelySee that.
I, you know I I don't fight forit, it's just it becomes so
you'd be co-author.
Speaker 1 (10:14):
Is that what it is, or?
Speaker 3 (10:15):
yeah, it would probably be title by clients
name, and maybe with DouglasGlenn Clark, right, but you see
any number of non-fiction bookswith two names, right?
Then I asked a ghost writerthey might have just
collaborated on the book, right?
(10:35):
So you taught me off charge ofthat.
And his point was it's anintegrity thing, I don't want to
pretend I didn't write that.
I'm gonna help, I'm gonna be.
You need me to write the book,but I'm not actually technically
the right.
So there's a scenario.
Speaker 1 (10:54):
Okay, but that's an interesting.
I mean, is that about integrity?
I mean, okay, let's just bringit back to John F Kennedy.
He has a great idea aboutprofiles and cards.
If people don't know the book,basically it's about honoring
each Person in politics who Imean I'm really dumbing it down
here, but it's essays, right ofeach individual person who he
(11:15):
believes are doing something.
That's a profile in courage.
They're doing something soextraordinary and they might
lose their election or they'retaking a big risk because
they're doing what's in the bestinterest of the country first.
So it's a great idea, it's anamazing idea.
But he didn't sit down andstart writing page for page.
(11:37):
He hired someone like you andsaid here's my idea, and then
what's the process after that?
Speaker 3 (11:43):
Yeah, but he was usually not so easy or simple as
saying hey, here's the idea.
Go disappear and go write thatjfk probably had His own stories
, the reason he loved the peoplehe focused on.
So there would be a dialogue.
Right, let's pretend we know.
Speaker 1 (12:05):
Right happened there, but you know, jfk, or the
author would be in conversationregularly and say, right, so I
have this other idea for achapter.
This is the story I want totell you.
You know, me and my mom werewalking down the street and we
came across this car, whatever,and then you would take that
information and you would put itin A story form that was
(12:31):
written down in a way, because,look at, here's the thing it is
rare, in my opinion.
Most people do not write theway they speak and tell stories.
The reason why I know this isbecause I am pathetically
exactly that person.
I write exactly the way I speak,which gets me in trouble a lot
(12:52):
when it comes to grammar andspelling and Using words like
suffage, that don't really exist, like making up.
So one of the things that'sreally interesting is that when
you have an editor that workswith you right and that's
different and editors different,if they don't know you well
enough, they're going to changethe way in which you write.
(13:12):
It's really a hard, difficultone.
So my question for you, douglas, is this how do you get that
person's tone, that person'slike that's what the mastery is
of what you do, because if not,it would just be you, the you
writing for somebody else andit's your voice, right.
Speaker 3 (13:35):
Well interesting when Sarah Palin remember her yes
yes, it became famous.
She got a publishing contractand that first bull was
obviously a ghost writer.
Yeah, you know and in fairness,sarah Palin never claimed to be
(13:56):
an author and was in the midstof A campaign.
Speaker 1 (14:02):
Right.
The whole thing that happenedwith John McCain.
Right, was it John McCain?
Yeah, john McCain.
Right, right, right.
Speaker 3 (14:06):
And one of the book was reviewed and one reviewer
said this doesn't sound anythinglike so exactly right, and that
was a complaint, because Palinactually has a voice, right.
Yeah, whether you like it ornot, she has a distinct sound
exactly and rhythm.
Yeah, so I wrote a book for adentist.
(14:29):
Actually, his son was funding itand forcing his dad to write a
story, that's good, yeah, hisfather was actually not fame,
but had become well known fortraining young athletes, and so,
in any case, I wrote the bookand the son said to me hey, my
(14:52):
mom and I agree that you reallycaptured his voice, maybe a
little too well.
Speaker 1 (15:02):
I would think that's the.
I would think that's themastery of what you do.
You have to be able to catchthat person's voice a compliment
.
Speaker 3 (15:10):
Yeah, I would say that's the ultimate compliment.
Yeah, and that's what you hopefor.
But I also say to the authorlook, you know the way you sound
on the telephone or the zoommeeting.
By all means, I'm listening but, we have to write 50,000 words
and there are going to be sometimes when we just have to be
(15:34):
dramatically correct and it's achapter or a sentence and it may
not be exactly the way you talk.
Speaker 1 (15:43):
I'm laughing because you know my first manuscript was
like 600 pages or something andmy friends took it in sections
first to go through it and Imean most of it was cut out.
You know, I don't want to missMelanie's question.
She asked this what's thedifference between a ghost
(16:05):
writer and using a pen name?
Great question, melanie.
Speaker 3 (16:09):
Great question yeah, excellent a pen name.
You remember that, thatsomewhat famous author JK
Rowling?
Speaker 1 (16:18):
Yes, harry Potter.
Speaker 3 (16:19):
There you go.
Well, she used a pen name whenshe decided she wanted to write
crime novels.
And I think Robert Galebreathis the name.
Well, initially, when thatfirst Robert was published, they
kept it secret and her pointwas she wanted to break from
Harry Potter.
And so she's not the firstauthor to start a new series and
(16:45):
style using a pen name.
So she still is the woman weknow her to be.
But for those other detective,those other novels she did.
Speaker 1 (16:56):
Yeah, I didn't read them, but yeah, oh, really, I've
never read them.
I've read all the HarryPotter's, of course, when they
came out.
So a pen name, melanie, also isused by a lot of actors as well
.
You know we were talking about,I mean, I guess it's, I mean, I
don't know if you'd use thesame verbiage, right, pen name.
Well, people change their namesall the time.
They don't use their real namesin order to break away, like we
(17:17):
were talking about MartinSheehan in one of our last
episodes, or as Rick likes tocall him, martin.
What is it?
You call it Martin?
Speaker 2 (17:24):
Sheen.
Speaker 1 (17:26):
Right, but his name is.
It's very Latin and I forgetwhat it is, but it's this I mean
that's his last name.
No, no, it's his last name, buthis name is.
Speaker 2 (17:39):
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:40):
You know what, rick?
Your mic is really hot.
I don't know if you knew that,but you wouldn't know that if I
had let you talk to like even alittle bit.
You know, I mean like you wouldhave seen it already.
Speaker 2 (17:52):
I was going to say too.
Stephen King's son did the samething because he didn't want if
he got popular, he didn't wantit to be well, that's because
everybody loves my dad, so heused a different name, and that
makes total sense.
Speaker 3 (18:04):
And so, melanie, that's what a pen name is, and
yeah, actors other people maychoose a different name, but a
ghost writer is not the name onthe book.
You know, let's pretend JKRowling decided I've got a hairy
powder thing in my head but Idon't know how to write it, so
(18:24):
she hurries me I write it, andthat's a ghost writer.
I'm behind the scenes.
I'm invisible.
Speaker 1 (18:34):
Nobody knows it's you .
They all think it's JKRowling's who wrote the book.
Right, let's be clear.
Jk Rowling's did write theHarry Potter, but you know.
Just just to talk about thattoo, her name is actually not J
(18:56):
K Rowling's or Rowling's.
She had to do that becausenobody would would take her book
, because no one thought it wasa Bible book.
So she went with JK, so peoplewould assume she was a man.
Other conversation yeah, I mean, her parents didn't name her JK
.
She did that on purpose becauseshe got so many rejections,
(19:19):
rejections, rejections, and thenshe was like I'm gonna use a
different name, so she used herinitials.
Yeah, that's how that happenedto.
What kind of people hire you ordo you work with, and are there
people that you choose not towork with?
Speaker 3 (19:35):
Yeah, well, there are a couple I wish I had chosen
not to work with.
Let's do the first part of thequestion.
You know, non-fiction became sobig in these last 20 years.
It was always a Large presentpresence in the publishing world
(19:58):
, but I think the advent ofKindle not.
I think I know when selfpublishing became available in a
brand new way.
Men and women in business, forexample, medicine.
What have you realized?
They should have a legitimatebook Without feeling it was a
(20:19):
vanity press Meaning that theywrote a book, paid somebody a
lot of money and they publishedit.
Oh, okay they could actually dothat me legitimately do
something creative unique totheir background, their
expertise, and I started Joe'swriting at about that time you
(20:40):
know, 2008.
Yeah, and for the reasons I'vementioned so often, I'll be
writing for, or someone with abusiness background.
But I always say to the theauthor Look, here's my job, I'm
gonna help you write the storythat only you can write oh.
(21:05):
Okay, wait a minute.
That sounds weird, right Wellmeaning, it has to be personal.
In other words, if I Let meback up a little bit, you said
who you work with and who wouldyou rather not work with okay.
Well, I would rather work withsomeone who understands I Know
(21:28):
you have been through toughtimes, as well as All the
business success you've had.
If you're willing to bevulnerable and Tell me the low
points as well as the successes,that story is your story and
only you can tell that storybecause you have lived it right.
(21:50):
So we may be writing a, abusiness book, but my technique
is to get the author to tell ustheir, their story, their whole
story, and then we blend that inwith whatever they want to
share.
Speaker 1 (22:08):
But you only work with a.
You know what I have to bequiet now, I promise.
Well, hey, rick.
Speaker 2 (22:16):
Well, questions I had was so you generally have like
a contract and say, like youknow, if this makes it big, I
wrote the thing, so I better getsome money out of this thing
too.
Speaker 3 (22:28):
I know that that's an interesting point now.
When we were talking aboutsomeone like Tony, who wrote
Donald Trump sport Right nowthat level in the publishing
industry, he would have beenpaid a lot of money and he would
have had I'm pretty sure,listening to what he said about
(22:49):
the book that he had a nice dealof sharing in the royalty of
that book and it became a bestseller.
Yeah, so that's one thing.
Wouldn't we all love to havethat?
Speaker 1 (23:01):
No, that's it.
I don't think you could paysomeone enough money to do that.
Speaker 3 (23:07):
To do that now?
Yeah, but back in the day hewas happy to have the gig.
Yeah, and it turned out, he's aterrific writer.
Speaker 1 (23:15):
You say his name like you know him, I'm just spilling
tea here.
You say, like you know Tony,I'm just yeah, so so don't.
So his publishing company paidhim probably an upfront money
and then turned around and hegot Royalties afterwards.
Speaker 3 (23:37):
Well to rich question .
That would have been worked outin the contract.
You know they didn't just saylater hey, you did a great job,
we're gonna give you all thismoney.
That has to be set in place.
But you know, some of mycontracts, of course, are not
with traditional publishers.
I have a contract with theauthor, and sometimes with an
(23:59):
author and what I'll callpartnership publishing right.
And so it's really to be frank.
In my situation, it's better tohave a fee for the book, not
worry about what happens downthe road, but create a good book
, and Once you've done, you done, and that's the money you made
(24:22):
from the work you've done right.
Speaker 1 (24:24):
So you get paid a fee upfront.
So let's say you and I weregonna work on a book together
and I wasn't gonna write it.
You're gonna be my ghost writer.
I would pay X amount of dollars.
I know all your fee structureis up on your website so people
can go check that out at yourghostwritercom.
And there are slashes inbetween each word as it is On
(24:47):
the ticker at the bottom.
But but then that's it right.
I mean, then if my book becomesa best-seller, you don't get
anything.
Speaker 3 (24:55):
Right there, but well you know yes or no.
It's kind of.
Let me put it this way let'ssay we have a stack of money on
the table and I can either takeall of that money and write the
book, or I can take I'm justnaming a number 75% of that
(25:21):
money to write the book with thehope that later down the road
I'll make even more money on aroyalty.
Speaker 1 (25:29):
Right.
Speaker 3 (25:30):
Well, that's speculation.
Speaker 1 (25:32):
Right.
Speaker 3 (25:33):
Right.
So that's the issue, that's therisk Are you willing to
speculate.
Right, and it just depends.
Speaker 1 (25:40):
Well, if somebody's a celebrity or you know
somebody's book I mean, ifBarack Obama he wrote his own
book.
But if Barack Obama was like,hey, I'd love you to be the
ghostwriter on this book, you'dbe a fool to be.
You take 75% and know you'regoing to get royalties on the
end.
You know what I mean.
Speaker 3 (25:58):
Yeah right, Sure you would you would yeah.
The president has joked thatMichelle hired a ghostwriter.
Speaker 1 (26:07):
Yeah, that I knew.
Speaker 3 (26:09):
And no embarrassment, you know she.
Speaker 1 (26:12):
Yeah, she's me out, though I don't know why.
Speaker 3 (26:17):
Well, that's an issue that a lot of people have.
It feels dishonest sometimes, Ithink, if I don't mean to put
words in your mouth, but I had aclient who had a great concept.
I really liked the concept andso I was hired to write this
(26:42):
book Non-Fiction and she was soparanoid about anyone knowing
that I wrote her book that whenit was published, although we
had a contract that said in theacknowledgments my name would be
there and in some simple way ofsaying thank you, douglas, for
(27:07):
the publishing and writingconsultations, right.
Well, when the book waspublished it wasn't there.
Oh no, and it was too late forme to do anything, and it's not
as if it became a bestseller butI was proud of that book and
(27:28):
Ghostwriter has to find a way ofmaking an agreement with a
client.
Look, I have to be able to tellsomeone that you hired me,
Otherwise who's going to hire meto do their book?
Speaker 1 (27:43):
I know, but that is a legal document too.
I mean, not that I think you'rewanting to sue people or
whatever, but actually what shedid showed more about who she
was.
It was actually more unethicalthan what she thought having a
Ghostwriter would be about.
You know what I mean.
Speaker 3 (28:01):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, well, yeah, middle kinds Exactly
.
Oh my God.
Speaker 1 (28:10):
See, rick, I'm giving you space, jump in.
Speaker 2 (28:12):
Okay.
So other question was soeverybody's different,
everybody's case is different,obviously, but what would you
say, maybe on average percentageof people, that actually give
you a really good skeleton, atleast, of what they want, versus
just a very brief idea and herejust write it, if you know what
(28:35):
I mean, like as far as guidance, I mean how does it?
Speaker 3 (28:39):
what do we start with ?
Speaker 2 (28:41):
Yeah, like if I came to you and I, as if I said, can
you write a book about birds?
And I give you almost nothingelse, just about that, as
opposed to I've got to outlineand here's all my points and
then here make a book out ofthat.
Like, how often is it one wayversus the other way?
Speaker 3 (28:59):
Well, it's really hard to begin if you don't, if
the author hasn't put somethingtogether and that might mean a
very loose biography or oneclient actually works out.
It's just happened to time outthis way.
It was a book I really wantedto do.
(29:19):
I really love the book.
It's called Maintenance man toMillionaire and it's done pretty
well and Glenn Gonzalez tellshis story of wanting to be in
real estate.
Glenn is fine with me sayingthat we work together, but the
way it began was an interviewmuch like this that he did for a
(29:42):
podcaster in real estate.
And for an hour Glenn sat oncamera and went through his
whole life story.
So that was ideal.
I didn't have to ask him totake the time to do that and
because he was speaking to theaudience that the book would
(30:04):
speak to, he hit the majorpoints and it was even then.
It was just the beginning.
Speaker 1 (30:12):
How long is the process?
Like someone comes to you andsays I have an idea for a book
and then it's a collaborativeeffort.
I assume you speak on a prettyregular basis, right?
Until you're done with the book, right?
It's not like here's mytemplate, here's my idea about
birds.
Let me know, when you're doneso from beginning to end, what
(30:32):
would be a time frame?
Is it a year it takes to writea book, or is it three months?
Speaker 3 (30:40):
Well, you know, getting back to a risk question,
it does depend.
How much do you have, I think,of those books in the six month
time frame?
Speaker 1 (30:52):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (30:53):
You know that's a thousand words, but some, even
some shorter books might stilltake six months, because I have
to drag it out, I have to be anattorney in a courtroom Right?
I have to drive fast, and soforth.
Speaker 2 (31:15):
I find that fascinating you need to pull
stuff out from people so thatyou have something to work with
yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:23):
But six months is not a long time to write a book, in
case people don't realize ittakes a long time to write a
book, Even a bad book.
It takes a long time to write abook.
So six months is nothing.
Speaker 3 (31:39):
It's more me saying you know, I can only book so
many projects per year.
Speaker 1 (31:46):
Right how efficient.
Speaker 3 (31:47):
Can I be?
Speaker 1 (31:49):
Let's talk about this website.
Authorlaunchgumroadcom.
Yeah, it's down on the tickerhere.
I replaced your other one,which is yourghostwritercom,
which people should go and checkout.
There are links there, and Rickjust put it up in the chat as
well.
Do you want to talk a littlebit about this website?
Speaker 3 (32:10):
Yeah, this is very simple courses and some guidance
.
You know, I even put in theheadline on the
authorlaunchgumroadcom site heywriter, how about another course
?
No, you don't need anotherwriting course.
You just need to know.
So there are a few courses thatyou can download for free there
(32:33):
and they're very simple, butthey're put together to help
people who are trying to getgoing and they can't get started
as a writer.
They want to be a writer.
Speaker 1 (32:44):
Oh.
Speaker 3 (32:45):
Or they're stuck and they need a few ideas to get out
of that rut, and so go therevisit, it won't hurt you.
There are three courses whichyou'll see have a zero right
next to them that you candownload.
And then what I'm also sayingis hey, contact me.
I'd love to have 15 minuteconversations with people who
(33:08):
are trying to figure out wherethey belong in their writing,
and sometimes they do itthemselves.
It's not a business call, it'stry to help them get started.
Speaker 1 (33:19):
Is it is the call a free consultation, would you?
Are you doing a freeconsultation to 15 minute?
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (33:26):
Is that?
Speaker 1 (33:26):
what you're doing I don't like.
I just want to make sure I readthe email right and Rick has a
saying that I love that.
He says all the time what is it, Rick?
Speaker 2 (33:34):
If it's free, is for me.
Speaker 1 (33:36):
If it's free, it's for me, yeah, yeah.
So it's courses, but alsopeople.
Anybody who's interested inwriting a book and doesn't know
where to start, doesn't knowwhat to do.
Go and visit Douglas's website,your ghostwritercom, or the one
that's in the ticker right nowat the bottom, author
(33:57):
launchgumroadcom and reach outto him and he at least will give
you some nice time and energyand tell you what your next
steps might be.
Is that fair enough?
Speaker 3 (34:09):
That's fair enough.
Speaker 1 (34:10):
Yes, I think that's fair enough.
Yeah, that'd be great.
I might take you up on that.
I don't know.
I don't know, I don't know.
Speaker 3 (34:17):
Yeah yeah, what a pleasure to be here and really
enjoy speaking with you both.
I hope we offer somethinguseful to your audience.
Speaker 1 (34:26):
No, absolutely so, everyone.
Thank you for stopping by againand we'll be back next week.
Thank you everyone, bye.
Speaker 3 (34:33):
Bye, good night.
Speaker 1 (34:35):
Thanks for stopping by.
All about the joy Be better andstay beautiful.
Folks have a sweet day.
Here we go.
This is how we do it.
Speaker 2 (00:02):
We just this is how we Okay.
Copyrighted can't docopyrighted.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
I know it is copyrighted.
Hey, everyone, welcome to AllAbout the Joy.
We're so glad to have you here,rick, high as always Hello,
hello, but I wanna welcomeDouglas.
How are you?
I'm so glad you're here and onthe show.
Speaker 3 (00:20):
Well thanks for having me yeah, and I'm doing
great Doing great Welcome.
Speaker 1 (00:25):
So I wanna welcome our guest and I wanna tell
everyone who he is before westart interviewing him.
But Douglas Glenn Clark, who Ikept calling Glenn, I think
forever.
We met back in.
I don't know if we met, but wetalked in 2016,.
Right, and forgive me, becauseI know it has something to do
(00:46):
with the AMR Foundation, where Iworked with Arlene Rosen, but
what do you remember?
Because I was really trying tofigure out how we connected.
Speaker 3 (00:57):
You know I'm in the same boat with you.
I remember Tashi and beingconnected and thinking how did
that happen?
Speaker 1 (01:08):
I think it was through the foundation.
So here's what I remember.
For me, it's really importantto kind of always have context
while I bring people on the show.
You were helping us or you weregoing to help us with our
website and our press release.
That's the only thing that Iremember and that's how we
started talking and at somepoint we went back and forth on
(01:30):
LinkedIn.
That's what I remember.
Speaker 3 (01:31):
Yeah, and I was writing for businesses primarily
back then.
Speaker 1 (01:36):
Right.
So here's my thing.
We're going to talk about youbeing a ghost writer, but I want
to talk about how you startedwriting to begin with, like did
you know as a kid?
Did it happen to you some othertime?
Tell me, when did you becomeinspired to become a writer?
Speaker 3 (01:52):
Well, you know, oddly enough, when I was very young,
I had three things I wanted todo, and they were all in the
arts performing, making somemusic.
My father was a musician, okay,and I wanted to write a book.
Now, no one in my family was anauthor.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (02:15):
I have no idea why so young maybe 12, I had this
distinct choice or made thesedistinct choices and I proceeded
.
Speaker 1 (02:28):
But you didn't just proceed.
You're not like everyone alwayssays, I'm a writer, but you're
a writer of everything.
You've done screenplays, you'vedone, a play on Broadway,
you've done books, you've doneI'm trying to remember
everything that was on yourwebsite but you've written in
every genre.
(02:49):
You also write music, which Ithought was mind-blowingly crazy
, but I think that's prettyunique, to have kind of such an
overall love of the art that youcan fit in every genre.
Speaker 3 (03:04):
Well, thank you, I'm having to look back now.
You're right, you, all thosethings, and it's been so odd to
start in one place and then, 10years later, you touched all
these different bases.
Speaker 2 (03:23):
I think one of the best things that happened to me,
though.
Speaker 3 (03:26):
I began writing as a playwright and I had some plays
done, got some grants and thosesorts of steps forward.
But when I became a journalistwhich I did kind of through the
back door I didn't go toColumbia Journalism School but
when that started I really feltthat that taught me how to write
(03:48):
professionally, in the sensethat there were gonna be some
tough deadlines.
I was sure they have to drawfrom interviews and research and
various points of reference tobe able to create something.
And I use all of that todaybecause eventually newspapers
died yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:10):
Or they're still dying.
They're still dying.
There's some holding on.
There are some holding on.
Speaker 3 (04:15):
Yeah, and they certainly have made a rebound
because I was working for theLos Angeles Daily News.
And as a turn of the century.
I mean when the internet roseand it all was glory and
everything had to be free.
Speaker 2 (04:31):
Right.
Speaker 3 (04:32):
But since then, yeah, I mean jobs were lost then and
I had no future in journalismthen as a daily newspaper guy.
Speaker 1 (04:40):
Oh, wow, okay.
Speaker 3 (04:42):
So that forced me into freelancing, thank you.
Led to boss and Led to you andI meeting because I was ready
for businesses.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
Yeah, so tell me about your business and Okay,
but here's the thing I, you know, I had to do some research on
the whole ghost writing thing.
So of course I know Rick hasquestions too, but I think it's,
I Think it's I don't want tosay weird, but that's the word
coming out of my mouth For youto go from being this journalist
(05:15):
and being you know I were wereyou also a reporter, because you
said you were interviewing too.
So you were a reporter.
How did you end up becoming aghost writer, which first?
Can we tell people what thatmeans?
Because I didn't realize howextensive of a definition that
was.
Speaker 3 (05:33):
Yeah, you know, it's why it is still a mystery, I
don't know, but it does.
Oh, it creates some anxietysometimes and the people are
right for and Other people arefine with it and they just need
some help.
Right?
Basically, a ghost writer helps, the author will call the
(05:56):
author to be a business person,theater person, whomever Decides
they want to tell their story.
Yeah, so they, they need help.
They don't have the time or theskills.
And I got into ghost writingbecause at one point I realized
how do I, if I'm going tofreelance, how do I describe
(06:18):
what I do?
I can't, I can't have 20 thingsthat I say I do.
Right, and I finally settled on.
You know, I have written somany people's story as a news
writer.
I Can write your book.
Speaker 1 (06:34):
So, yeah, I was shocked to find out.
I was heartbroken today and,like I want you to walk me
through this, I was looking upbooks that were Written by other
people, ghost written, right.
So some of the famous ones wealready know, which everyone no
one is surprised by this one, Itell you, but the art of the
deal by Donald Trump wasactually by Tony Schwartz, and
(06:59):
Tony Schwartz has then said he'sregretted writing that or
whatever.
So I want to get into that in aminute, not so much about the
Trump part or the Tony Schwartzpart, but about, kind of, how do
you go through that processwith the author?
I am Malala, so Malala, who weall love, right, she's an
amazing young woman.
(07:20):
Her book was also ghost writtenby Christina Lam, who's a
foreign correspondent, right.
But here's the one that I washeartbroken about, because it's
one of my favorite books andactually I love the idea of it
was profiles and courage.
Yeah, is how did I not knowthat that was a book that was
(07:41):
ghost written?
Ted Sorensen, that's right.
Ted Sorensen wrote, yeah,profiles and courage.
So how do you deal with that?
Do you does?
Does anyone know that you arethe ghost, that you are the
actual writer.
Does the author take over thework?
How does it work?
Speaker 2 (08:01):
Yeah, I would say too , could we for like the
seven-year-old watching and youjust said ghost, right, like, oh
, is it ghost stories?
No, sweetheart, like explainyeah what it means?
I think a lot people stilldon't know what that means.
Speaker 3 (08:14):
Well, the ghost means I Need to be invisible mmm.
You like, let's start with JFK.
Mm-hmm.
That book won the PulitzerPrize and and everyone thought,
oh, yeah, wonderful.
We have such a literatepolitical leader and he wins the
(08:35):
Pulitzer as well as becomingwell-known and eventually to the
White House.
Well, how do you?
Speaker 1 (08:43):
How do you deal with that?
Speaker 3 (08:44):
How does JFK then say oh, by the way.
I didn't write it, or the sonor Pierre Salinger, whoever they
thought at the time, how?
Speaker 1 (08:52):
does he?
Speaker 3 (08:53):
give up the identity of being a writer and it pull a
surprise when you write that.
That's tricky.
Speaker 1 (09:01):
Just kind of explain it in a different way, because I
think that's what Rick isgetting at a ghost writer in the
layman's term.
My, my way of looking at it isif you're a business, or you're
somebody who has an idea of abook but you're not a writer, or
you don't have the time and youdon't really want to sit down
and, you know, write all thesechapters out, whatever you hire
(09:23):
somebody else to write the book,I'm gonna say with you, but it
is kind of for you, isn't it?
I mean, that's where it getsconfusing.
That's, yeah, kennedy thing.
Speaker 3 (09:35):
Well, there are so many different situations.
For example, I have a newclient and he very successful
businessman, but he was a verysuccessful young college athlete
.
Okay and that's part of whatmakes the story unique and fun.
But we were on the phone theother day and we've just started
(09:56):
.
He said by the way, doug, yourname is gonna be on the front
cover with my name, and I rarelySee that.
I, you know I I don't fight forit, it's just it becomes so
you'd be co-author.
Speaker 1 (10:14):
Is that what it is, or?
Speaker 3 (10:15):
yeah, it would probably be title by clients
name, and maybe with DouglasGlenn Clark, right, but you see
any number of non-fiction bookswith two names, right?
Then I asked a ghost writerthey might have just
collaborated on the book, right?
(10:35):
So you taught me off charge ofthat.
And his point was it's anintegrity thing, I don't want to
pretend I didn't write that.
I'm gonna help, I'm gonna be.
You need me to write the book,but I'm not actually technically
the right.
So there's a scenario.
Speaker 1 (10:54):
Okay, but that's an interesting.
I mean, is that about integrity?
I mean, okay, let's just bringit back to John F Kennedy.
He has a great idea aboutprofiles and cards.
If people don't know the book,basically it's about honoring
each Person in politics who Imean I'm really dumbing it down
here, but it's essays, right ofeach individual person who he
(11:15):
believes are doing something.
That's a profile in courage.
They're doing something soextraordinary and they might
lose their election or they'retaking a big risk because
they're doing what's in the bestinterest of the country first.
So it's a great idea, it's anamazing idea.
But he didn't sit down andstart writing page for page.
(11:37):
He hired someone like you andsaid here's my idea, and then
what's the process after that?
Speaker 3 (11:43):
Yeah, but he was usually not so easy or simple as
saying hey, here's the idea.
Go disappear and go write thatjfk probably had His own stories
, the reason he loved the peoplehe focused on.
So there would be a dialogue.
Right, let's pretend we know.
Speaker 1 (12:05):
Right happened there, but you know, jfk, or the
author would be in conversationregularly and say, right, so I
have this other idea for achapter.
This is the story I want totell you.
You know, me and my mom werewalking down the street and we
came across this car, whatever,and then you would take that
information and you would put itin A story form that was
(12:31):
written down in a way, because,look at, here's the thing it is
rare, in my opinion.
Most people do not write theway they speak and tell stories.
The reason why I know this isbecause I am pathetically
exactly that person.
I write exactly the way I speak,which gets me in trouble a lot
(12:52):
when it comes to grammar andspelling and Using words like
suffage, that don't really exist, like making up.
So one of the things that'sreally interesting is that when
you have an editor that workswith you right and that's
different and editors different,if they don't know you well
enough, they're going to changethe way in which you write.
(13:12):
It's really a hard, difficultone.
So my question for you, douglas, is this how do you get that
person's tone, that person'slike that's what the mastery is
of what you do, because if not,it would just be you, the you
writing for somebody else andit's your voice, right.
Speaker 3 (13:35):
Well interesting when Sarah Palin remember her yes
yes, it became famous.
She got a publishing contractand that first bull was
obviously a ghost writer.
Yeah, you know and in fairness,sarah Palin never claimed to be
(13:56):
an author and was in the midstof A campaign.
Speaker 1 (14:02):
Right.
The whole thing that happenedwith John McCain.
Right, was it John McCain?
Yeah, john McCain.
Right, right, right.
Speaker 3 (14:06):
And one of the book was reviewed and one reviewer
said this doesn't sound anythinglike so exactly right, and that
was a complaint, because Palinactually has a voice, right.
Yeah, whether you like it ornot, she has a distinct sound
exactly and rhythm.
Yeah, so I wrote a book for adentist.
(14:29):
Actually, his son was funding itand forcing his dad to write a
story, that's good, yeah, hisfather was actually not fame,
but had become well known fortraining young athletes, and so,
in any case, I wrote the bookand the son said to me hey, my
(14:52):
mom and I agree that you reallycaptured his voice, maybe a
little too well.
Speaker 1 (15:02):
I would think that's the.
I would think that's themastery of what you do.
You have to be able to catchthat person's voice a compliment
.
Speaker 3 (15:10):
Yeah, I would say that's the ultimate compliment.
Yeah, and that's what you hopefor.
But I also say to the authorlook, you know the way you sound
on the telephone or the zoommeeting.
By all means, I'm listening but, we have to write 50,000 words
and there are going to be sometimes when we just have to be
(15:34):
dramatically correct and it's achapter or a sentence and it may
not be exactly the way you talk.
Speaker 1 (15:43):
I'm laughing because you know my first manuscript was
like 600 pages or something andmy friends took it in sections
first to go through it and Imean most of it was cut out.
You know, I don't want to missMelanie's question.
She asked this what's thedifference between a ghost
(16:05):
writer and using a pen name?
Great question, melanie.
Speaker 3 (16:09):
Great question yeah, excellent a pen name.
You remember that, thatsomewhat famous author JK
Rowling?
Speaker 1 (16:18):
Yes, harry Potter.
Speaker 3 (16:19):
There you go.
Well, she used a pen name whenshe decided she wanted to write
crime novels.
And I think Robert Galebreathis the name.
Well, initially, when thatfirst Robert was published, they
kept it secret and her pointwas she wanted to break from
Harry Potter.
And so she's not the firstauthor to start a new series and
(16:45):
style using a pen name.
So she still is the woman weknow her to be.
But for those other detective,those other novels she did.
Speaker 1 (16:56):
Yeah, I didn't read them, but yeah, oh, really, I've
never read them.
I've read all the HarryPotter's, of course, when they
came out.
So a pen name, melanie, also isused by a lot of actors as well
.
You know we were talking about,I mean, I guess it's, I mean, I
don't know if you'd use thesame verbiage, right, pen name.
Well, people change their namesall the time.
They don't use their real namesin order to break away, like we
(17:17):
were talking about MartinSheehan in one of our last
episodes, or as Rick likes tocall him, martin.
What is it?
You call it Martin?
Speaker 2 (17:24):
Sheen.
Speaker 1 (17:26):
Right, but his name is.
It's very Latin and I forgetwhat it is, but it's this I mean
that's his last name.
No, no, it's his last name, buthis name is.
Speaker 2 (17:39):
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:40):
You know what, rick?
Your mic is really hot.
I don't know if you knew that,but you wouldn't know that if I
had let you talk to like even alittle bit.
You know, I mean like you wouldhave seen it already.
Speaker 2 (17:52):
I was going to say too.
Stephen King's son did the samething because he didn't want if
he got popular, he didn't wantit to be well, that's because
everybody loves my dad, so heused a different name, and that
makes total sense.
Speaker 3 (18:04):
And so, melanie, that's what a pen name is, and
yeah, actors other people maychoose a different name, but a
ghost writer is not the name onthe book.
You know, let's pretend JKRowling decided I've got a hairy
powder thing in my head but Idon't know how to write it, so
(18:24):
she hurries me I write it, andthat's a ghost writer.
I'm behind the scenes.
I'm invisible.
Speaker 1 (18:34):
Nobody knows it's you .
They all think it's JKRowling's who wrote the book.
Right, let's be clear.
Jk Rowling's did write theHarry Potter, but you know.
Just just to talk about thattoo, her name is actually not J
(18:56):
K Rowling's or Rowling's.
She had to do that becausenobody would would take her book
, because no one thought it wasa Bible book.
So she went with JK, so peoplewould assume she was a man.
Other conversation yeah, I mean, her parents didn't name her JK
.
She did that on purpose becauseshe got so many rejections,
(19:19):
rejections, rejections, and thenshe was like I'm gonna use a
different name, so she used herinitials.
Yeah, that's how that happenedto.
What kind of people hire you ordo you work with, and are there
people that you choose not towork with?
Speaker 3 (19:35):
Yeah, well, there are a couple I wish I had chosen
not to work with.
Let's do the first part of thequestion.
You know, non-fiction became sobig in these last 20 years.
It was always a Large presentpresence in the publishing world
(19:58):
, but I think the advent ofKindle not.
I think I know when selfpublishing became available in a
brand new way.
Men and women in business, forexample, medicine.
What have you realized?
They should have a legitimatebook Without feeling it was a
(20:19):
vanity press Meaning that theywrote a book, paid somebody a
lot of money and they publishedit.
Oh, okay they could actually dothat me legitimately do
something creative unique totheir background, their
expertise, and I started Joe'swriting at about that time you
(20:40):
know, 2008.
Yeah, and for the reasons I'vementioned so often, I'll be
writing for, or someone with abusiness background.
But I always say to the theauthor Look, here's my job, I'm
gonna help you write the storythat only you can write oh.
(21:05):
Okay, wait a minute.
That sounds weird, right Wellmeaning, it has to be personal.
In other words, if I Let meback up a little bit, you said
who you work with and who wouldyou rather not work with okay.
Well, I would rather work withsomeone who understands I Know
(21:28):
you have been through toughtimes, as well as All the
business success you've had.
If you're willing to bevulnerable and Tell me the low
points as well as the successes,that story is your story and
only you can tell that storybecause you have lived it right.
(21:50):
So we may be writing a, abusiness book, but my technique
is to get the author to tell ustheir, their story, their whole
story, and then we blend that inwith whatever they want to
share.
Speaker 1 (22:08):
But you only work with a.
You know what I have to bequiet now, I promise.
Well, hey, rick.
Speaker 2 (22:16):
Well, questions I had was so you generally have like
a contract and say, like youknow, if this makes it big, I
wrote the thing, so I better getsome money out of this thing
too.
Speaker 3 (22:28):
I know that that's an interesting point now.
When we were talking aboutsomeone like Tony, who wrote
Donald Trump sport Right nowthat level in the publishing
industry, he would have beenpaid a lot of money and he would
have had I'm pretty sure,listening to what he said about
(22:49):
the book that he had a nice dealof sharing in the royalty of
that book and it became a bestseller.
Yeah, so that's one thing.
Wouldn't we all love to havethat?
Speaker 1 (23:01):
No, that's it.
I don't think you could paysomeone enough money to do that.
Speaker 3 (23:07):
To do that now?
Yeah, but back in the day hewas happy to have the gig.
Yeah, and it turned out, he's aterrific writer.
Speaker 1 (23:15):
You say his name like you know him, I'm just spilling
tea here.
You say, like you know Tony,I'm just yeah, so so don't.
So his publishing company paidhim probably an upfront money
and then turned around and hegot Royalties afterwards.
Speaker 3 (23:37):
Well to rich question .
That would have been worked outin the contract.
You know they didn't just saylater hey, you did a great job,
we're gonna give you all thismoney.
That has to be set in place.
But you know, some of mycontracts, of course, are not
with traditional publishers.
I have a contract with theauthor, and sometimes with an
(23:59):
author and what I'll callpartnership publishing right.
And so it's really to be frank.
In my situation, it's better tohave a fee for the book, not
worry about what happens downthe road, but create a good book
, and Once you've done, you done, and that's the money you made
(24:22):
from the work you've done right.
Speaker 1 (24:24):
So you get paid a fee upfront.
So let's say you and I weregonna work on a book together
and I wasn't gonna write it.
You're gonna be my ghost writer.
I would pay X amount of dollars.
I know all your fee structureis up on your website so people
can go check that out at yourghostwritercom.
And there are slashes inbetween each word as it is On
(24:47):
the ticker at the bottom.
But but then that's it right.
I mean, then if my book becomesa best-seller, you don't get
anything.
Speaker 3 (24:55):
Right there, but well you know yes or no.
It's kind of.
Let me put it this way let'ssay we have a stack of money on
the table and I can either takeall of that money and write the
book, or I can take I'm justnaming a number 75% of that
(25:21):
money to write the book with thehope that later down the road
I'll make even more money on aroyalty.
Speaker 1 (25:29):
Right.
Speaker 3 (25:30):
Well, that's speculation.
Speaker 1 (25:32):
Right.
Speaker 3 (25:33):
Right.
So that's the issue, that's therisk Are you willing to
speculate.
Right, and it just depends.
Speaker 1 (25:40):
Well, if somebody's a celebrity or you know
somebody's book I mean, ifBarack Obama he wrote his own
book.
But if Barack Obama was like,hey, I'd love you to be the
ghostwriter on this book, you'dbe a fool to be.
You take 75% and know you'regoing to get royalties on the
end.
You know what I mean.
Speaker 3 (25:58):
Yeah right, Sure you would you would yeah.
The president has joked thatMichelle hired a ghostwriter.
Speaker 1 (26:07):
Yeah, that I knew.
Speaker 3 (26:09):
And no embarrassment, you know she.
Speaker 1 (26:12):
Yeah, she's me out, though I don't know why.
Speaker 3 (26:17):
Well, that's an issue that a lot of people have.
It feels dishonest sometimes, Ithink, if I don't mean to put
words in your mouth, but I had aclient who had a great concept.
I really liked the concept andso I was hired to write this
(26:42):
book Non-Fiction and she was soparanoid about anyone knowing
that I wrote her book that whenit was published, although we
had a contract that said in theacknowledgments my name would be
there and in some simple way ofsaying thank you, douglas, for
(27:07):
the publishing and writingconsultations, right.
Well, when the book waspublished it wasn't there.
Oh no, and it was too late forme to do anything, and it's not
as if it became a bestseller butI was proud of that book and
(27:28):
Ghostwriter has to find a way ofmaking an agreement with a
client.
Look, I have to be able to tellsomeone that you hired me,
Otherwise who's going to hire meto do their book?
Speaker 1 (27:43):
I know, but that is a legal document too.
I mean, not that I think you'rewanting to sue people or
whatever, but actually what shedid showed more about who she
was.
It was actually more unethicalthan what she thought having a
Ghostwriter would be about.
You know what I mean.
Speaker 3 (28:01):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, well, yeah, middle kinds Exactly
.
Oh my God.
Speaker 1 (28:10):
See, rick, I'm giving you space, jump in.
Speaker 2 (28:12):
Okay.
So other question was soeverybody's different,
everybody's case is different,obviously, but what would you
say, maybe on average percentageof people, that actually give
you a really good skeleton, atleast, of what they want, versus
just a very brief idea and herejust write it, if you know what
(28:35):
I mean, like as far as guidance, I mean how does it?
Speaker 3 (28:39):
what do we start with ?
Speaker 2 (28:41):
Yeah, like if I came to you and I, as if I said, can
you write a book about birds?
And I give you almost nothingelse, just about that, as
opposed to I've got to outlineand here's all my points and
then here make a book out ofthat.
Like, how often is it one wayversus the other way?
Speaker 3 (28:59):
Well, it's really hard to begin if you don't, if
the author hasn't put somethingtogether and that might mean a
very loose biography or oneclient actually works out.
It's just happened to time outthis way.
It was a book I really wantedto do.
(29:19):
I really love the book.
It's called Maintenance man toMillionaire and it's done pretty
well and Glenn Gonzalez tellshis story of wanting to be in
real estate.
Glenn is fine with me sayingthat we work together, but the
way it began was an interviewmuch like this that he did for a
(29:42):
podcaster in real estate.
And for an hour Glenn sat oncamera and went through his
whole life story.
So that was ideal.
I didn't have to ask him totake the time to do that and
because he was speaking to theaudience that the book would
(30:04):
speak to, he hit the majorpoints and it was even then.
It was just the beginning.
Speaker 1 (30:12):
How long is the process?
Like someone comes to you andsays I have an idea for a book
and then it's a collaborativeeffort.
I assume you speak on a prettyregular basis, right?
Until you're done with the book, right?
It's not like here's mytemplate, here's my idea about
birds.
Let me know, when you're doneso from beginning to end, what
(30:32):
would be a time frame?
Is it a year it takes to writea book, or is it three months?
Speaker 3 (30:40):
Well, you know, getting back to a risk question,
it does depend.
How much do you have, I think,of those books in the six month
time frame?
Speaker 1 (30:52):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (30:53):
You know that's a thousand words, but some, even
some shorter books might stilltake six months, because I have
to drag it out, I have to be anattorney in a courtroom Right?
I have to drive fast, and soforth.
Speaker 2 (31:15):
I find that fascinating you need to pull
stuff out from people so thatyou have something to work with
yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:23):
But six months is not a long time to write a book, in
case people don't realize ittakes a long time to write a
book, Even a bad book.
It takes a long time to write abook.
So six months is nothing.
Speaker 3 (31:39):
It's more me saying you know, I can only book so
many projects per year.
Speaker 1 (31:46):
Right how efficient.
Speaker 3 (31:47):
Can I be?
Speaker 1 (31:49):
Let's talk about this website.
Authorlaunchgumroadcom.
Yeah, it's down on the tickerhere.
I replaced your other one,which is yourghostwritercom,
which people should go and checkout.
There are links there, and Rickjust put it up in the chat as
well.
Do you want to talk a littlebit about this website?
Speaker 3 (32:10):
Yeah, this is very simple courses and some guidance
.
You know, I even put in theheadline on the
authorlaunchgumroadcom site heywriter, how about another course
?
No, you don't need anotherwriting course.
You just need to know.
So there are a few courses thatyou can download for free there
(32:33):
and they're very simple, butthey're put together to help
people who are trying to getgoing and they can't get started
as a writer.
They want to be a writer.
Speaker 1 (32:44):
Oh.
Speaker 3 (32:45):
Or they're stuck and they need a few ideas to get out
of that rut, and so go therevisit, it won't hurt you.
There are three courses whichyou'll see have a zero right
next to them that you candownload.
And then what I'm also sayingis hey, contact me.
I'd love to have 15 minuteconversations with people who
(33:08):
are trying to figure out wherethey belong in their writing,
and sometimes they do itthemselves.
It's not a business call, it'stry to help them get started.
Speaker 1 (33:19):
Is it is the call a free consultation, would you?
Are you doing a freeconsultation to 15 minute?
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (33:26):
Is that?
Speaker 1 (33:26):
what you're doing I don't like.
I just want to make sure I readthe email right and Rick has a
saying that I love that.
He says all the time what is it, Rick?
Speaker 2 (33:34):
If it's free, is for me.
Speaker 1 (33:36):
If it's free, it's for me, yeah, yeah.
So it's courses, but alsopeople.
Anybody who's interested inwriting a book and doesn't know
where to start, doesn't knowwhat to do.
Go and visit Douglas's website,your ghostwritercom, or the one
that's in the ticker right nowat the bottom, author
(33:57):
launchgumroadcom and reach outto him and he at least will give
you some nice time and energyand tell you what your next
steps might be.
Is that fair enough?
Speaker 3 (34:09):
That's fair enough.
Speaker 1 (34:10):
Yes, I think that's fair enough.
Yeah, that'd be great.
I might take you up on that.
I don't know.
I don't know, I don't know.
Speaker 3 (34:17):
Yeah yeah, what a pleasure to be here and really
enjoy speaking with you both.
I hope we offer somethinguseful to your audience.
Speaker 1 (34:26):
No, absolutely so, everyone.
Thank you for stopping by againand we'll be back next week.
Thank you everyone, bye.
Speaker 3 (34:33):
Bye, good night.
Speaker 1 (34:35):
Thanks for stopping by.
All about the joy Be better andstay beautiful.
Folks have a sweet day.
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