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November 19, 2023 • 54 mins

Get ready to discover the hidden struggles and triumphs of our first responders and veterans as they face the challenge of addiction. Welcoming our guest, Pat DeSarno, Shields Service Specialist at Brookdale Premier Addiction Recovery Center and former fire chief, we delve into a candid and enlightening discussion. Unraveling decades of civil service, Pat shares his personal journey of recovery, providing a unique perspective on the often overlooked issue of addiction among those who serve our communities.

Deep diving into the complex nexus of PTSD, addiction, and the fire services, we engage in a critical conversation on the unique challenges facing this tight-knit community. We discuss how ego and fear often perpetuate a cycle of silence, as these brave men and women grapple with being perceived as weak. Our conversation underscores the importance of incorporating clinical therapy into recovery programs and the life-changing impact of programs like Shields, designed specifically for first responders at Brookdale.

In our final segment, we discover the transformative power of fellowship and awareness in recovery. With Pat sharing his experiences with the Shields program and the 12-step routine, we highlight the essential role of these tools in the recovery journey. We further delve into the significance of book workshops and fellowship programs that can greatly influence an individual's recovery path. Let's embark on this journey of resilience, recovery, and hope together. Join us for this powerful episode that's not just about overcoming addiction, but about recognizing the strength and courage of our everyday heroes.

SHEILDS PROGRAM: https://brookdalerecovery.com/shields-program/

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Transcript

Episode Transcript

Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hello and thanks again for listening to another
episode of All Better.
I'm your host, joe Banh-Wi.
Today's guest is Pat DeSarno.
Pat is the Shields ServiceSpecialist at Brookdale Premier
Addiction Recovery Center.
That brings forth both thepersonal and professional
expertise needed to serve theirfirst responder population.

(00:25):
As former fire chief of theScranton Fire Department and as
a person in long-term recovery,pat understands the specific
needs of our uniformprofessionals and what it takes
to overcome addiction in theirenvironment.
With 31 years experience as acivil servant, pat spent 25
years on the line raising to therank of lieutenant and in the

(00:50):
last six years of his career asthe fire chief.
In addition, pat has spentcountless hours working with
first responders struggling withsubstance use disorder, feeling
compelled to carry the messageof hope, help them realize their
own potential in recovery.
As a Shields Specialist, he hasjoined the Brookdale team to

(01:11):
help build first responders aplace to land and have their own
program, helping support andserve an extremely tight-knit
segment of our society.
Pat is a certified recoveryspecialist and has received his
trauma certification.
Through his own personalexperience, pat inspires
identification among Shieldspatients and turning the opening

(01:34):
of a door of trust, honesty andrecovery.
Outside of work, pat enjoysgolfing, traveling, coaching,
wrestling and spending time withhis girlfriend, mary Beth, six
children and eight grandchildren.
Let's meet Pat and find outmore about the Shields program.
Okay, we're here with PatDiSarno, my friend.

(01:56):
We're going to cover a coupletopics today Pat's entry in
general, a general way intorecovery, what the Shields
program is for first responders,police and firefighters, and
what Pat has been up to for thelast five years.

Speaker 2 (02:17):
What's up, joe?
Thanks for having me on here.
I really appreciate it.
I love talking about recovery,a Shields program in particular
because first responders.
We've also expanded atBrookdale now to include
veterans in our program and Ihave a soft spot.
My love and respect for veteransgoes back to my dad 21-year

(02:39):
career army, korean War andVietnam.
He was a two-war guy PurpleHeart, brown Star, etc.
That's the real deal.
My love and respect forveterans goes way, way deep.
So when it was suggested by theformer CEO up at Brookdale that
we include veterans, I was noresistance whatsoever.
I went through a program Idon't know how the chronology

(03:02):
you want to go here is, but Iwent through a program at more
words, if I can mention that andwe had the Shields program up
there and Shields was just firstresponders police, firefighters
, corrections officers, ems, etc.
And they didn't includeveterans at the time.
But the Shields, the technicalname, was the Uniform

(03:25):
Professionals program, that wastheir true name for it and I
remember going up there.
Well, I don't know where youwant me to start, how I got here
, how I came into thisfellowship yeah, I think let's
start a little story there.

Speaker 1 (03:41):
I think that gives a really good description of where
we're going to land.

Speaker 2 (03:43):
Okay.

Speaker 1 (03:44):
Shields, I'm a little bit curious about your dad
being in the Korean War inVietnam.
Yes, he got a tail end, and sohow old would he have been when
he was a young man in Korea, atlike 18?

Speaker 2 (03:59):
Yeah right, fresh out of high school over to Korea.
I was actually born on an armybase there.
My mom is Korean, I'm halfKorean and Italian and yeah,
right toward the end of it, asthey were wrapping up, wrapping
it up in Korea, he was deployed,Spent a couple of years over
there and then came home andthen got to go to Vietnam as
well.

Speaker 1 (04:19):
Wow, that's a stretch .
And you bleed blue though, too.

Speaker 2 (04:22):
Oh, I'm a West Side of the Torch.
Yeah, thank you for showingthat out there.
Yeah, you probably can't see me, but I got it up there.

Speaker 1 (04:28):
West Side till fourth grade man.

Speaker 2 (04:31):
Once a West Side or always a West Side.

Speaker 1 (04:32):
Oxy Plot, oxy Plot, summers.

Speaker 2 (04:34):
Yeah, right, and how about?
All I was 10th Avenue, 10thAvenue.

Speaker 1 (04:39):
You would have known, probably my sister Gina.
Gina remember Terry Tansley, orwere they a little young?
They were a little younger forme, I think so, yeah, that was
that crew, louis Flowers, and,oh God, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (04:50):
Oh, I remember, I'm all the flowers, boys, girls,
all the big loo.
You know, just they were yeah,they were fun.

Speaker 1 (04:58):
Yeah, they were my heroes right as kids.

Speaker 2 (05:00):
Right across from St Lucie's Church.
I grew up Father.

Speaker 1 (05:02):
Cotone.

Speaker 2 (05:03):
Yeah, father Cotone, that's right.
Yeah, good stuff.

Speaker 1 (05:07):
Good stuff, man.
That's interesting.
You grew up around of that,Someone who followed the chain
of command loyalty duty forprobably big ideas in your house
.
When did you get first drawn tothe relief that alcohol or any

(05:29):
substance gave to you?
What do you think you weregetting relief from, pat?

Speaker 2 (05:33):
I want you know I tell this in my story that I
wanted to fit in.
You know I had this face thatin the 60s and 70s, scranton,
pennsylvania, didn't quite fitin.
Okay, a little different.
We weren't as diverse as we arethese days.
So I needed to do more.
I needed a little bit more tofit in.
I needed to make friends.
They were playing sports, I wasplaying sports.

(05:55):
They were drinking, I wasdrinking.
They were smoking weed, I waswhatever.
I just wanted to do more to fitin because I looked different
and I remember I won't mentionmy good friend, my good friend
our yards were connected and, assome people know, there used to
be the bread man, the milk manand the beer man back in the day
and my friend's dad would leavehis two cases of 16 ounce

(06:18):
Stegmaier returnables on theback porch and some of the old
Nipah guys will appreciate thatand he would leave it the two
cases.
And a little note you know,donning, leave two cases and
leave the money.
We would change it, donning,leave three cases and leave the
money.
And before I got back from workwe would take that top case off
and write down into the cellar.

(06:38):
And I can remember, man, thatfirst 12 years old right, that
first crack of the beer.
You needed an opener back thenand I, oh that relief, I belong.
Yeah, I'm here with my buddiesnow, and that was it.

Speaker 1 (06:51):
That's real man.

Speaker 2 (06:52):
That was it.
Yeah, I got friends.
Now this makes me feel like Ibelong.
I'm sitting here having acouple of having a couple of
beers with my buddies and theexcitement of it all.
You know the sneaking aroundand the danger of it off.
You want to say that just thatstarted it.
You know, and you know it was,it was good and it went along in
my life, went along, I had apretty good clip and just

(07:15):
somewhere along the line Icrossed that line.
You know, like your books, likethe book says we'll get into,
I'm a big book guy.
You know, I'm an a, I'm anaddict, alcoholic, who has
changed my life through thesteps and principles of alcohol.
It's anonymous because I'velearned.
It's not the substance, man,it's the why.
Now, why is the why use?
And then the thoughts, thebehaviors and the consequences.

(07:35):
Those are the similarities.
So, like it says in the book,man, you know, I just I fit, I
felt like I fit in, you know youcan't repeat it enough because
it takes a little bit of it.

Speaker 1 (07:45):
It seems like a huge revelation for me.
It was to think I didn't makethat connection.
I thought if I stopped drinkingI was going to be all right.
I didn't make the sense thatthe addiction was an attempt to
solve a problem.
Yeah yeah.

Speaker 2 (07:58):
Yeah, you know, and I don't again, I don't know when
I crossed that line.
You know, it tells me that longbefore it.
We know it.
Yeah it's, we've crossed itlong before we know it.

Speaker 1 (08:08):
For some of us it doesn't seem relevant to get
started in recovery.
If curiosity provides it, somepeople really dig in and try it,
but it doesn't need to be knownnow to produce recovery.
That's the interesting part tome.
I'm like well, when you startedyour career, what drew you to

(08:30):
be a first responder or intopublic service?
And I got a water there for you.

Speaker 2 (08:37):
Oh, thank you.
I'll say this For me it was nota calling.
It wasn't a calling per se.
I was young man.
Well, yeah, for my 20, almost28 at the time.
Yeah, 28 at the time.
Let's 18 in Scranton yeah, 28at the time, 18 in my life.
I was a little children at thetime, yeah, and I'd always just
been trying to improve myselfand, to be honest, it was just,

(09:00):
it was a good job with goodbenefits.
Yeah, that's what I looked atit at first, just trying to
improve myself.
And then, as time goes by, itdoes become a calling, it does
turn to something you love doing, you love helping people, et
cetera.
And you know the whole,whatever you want to call it,
the thrill of the job, thecamaraderie which is a big part
of Shields, the camaraderie thatcomes with the job, the

(09:21):
trusting you learn, you learnthat whole thing about chain of
command and got a count on your,your partner, et cetera, the
guys on your company, et cetera.
But and that's that's whatstarted my journey, to, like I
said, to be honest, it wasn't acalling to start.
So you're 28.

Speaker 1 (09:37):
What year is this?
Is this early 90s?
May of 89.
I was high, 89.
May of 89.
89.
The okay, I was just watchingNetflix.
That was the year of JohnGotti's fourth trial.
It was a new series on there,but so it's 1989.
Can you just speak to one word?
Um, the power the unions hadthen and really distinctly our

(10:02):
region for firefighters, police,it seemed like, if I'm not
mistaken you could correct me ifI'm wrong Scranton was one of
the most highly desired areas towork as a first responder
because of how strong the Unionwas in protecting wages rights.
You know the high demand of thejob.

(10:24):
We somehow ended up with areally strong and organized
Union here for police andfirefighters right.

Speaker 2 (10:30):
Yes, when I first came on the job, the unions were
the IAEFF, which I belong to,international Association of
Firefighters was very strong.
The FOP, the Fraternal andPolice.
They were very strong as well.
Both of the public safetyunions in the city were very
strong.
And you know, little by little,as reality said, in the reality
of the world, you know theylost their grip a little bit,

(10:52):
you know, and you know they gotsome good, bad or otherwise.
It was just the reality of thething.
And the job changed from when Istarted by the time I retired
and, as I'll get into, at theend of it all I was on the other
side of that fence.

(11:12):
Okay, I was on the managementside.
For 25 years I was a Unionmember, a career firefighter,
rose to lieutenant and then thelast six years I was the
superintendent.
So I was on the other side ofit, but I was always.
I always try to advocate forwhat was right, or you know, I
really did, even when I was nuts.

(11:33):
Okay, I, just as far as thatone, I was tried to advocate for
what was right and what waswrong and I always realized that
.
And I'll just say, most timeswhen grievances were brought to
bear, and I don't forget offtrack here, but when grievances
were brought to bear it wasalways, for the most part, it
was management side that kind ofscrewed the pooch, you know,
went against the contract, wentagainst what was agreed to, and

(11:57):
that was just my experience.
So I tried to change that,tried to, you know, keep
management, you know, keep themon the right track and to avoid
all the crap that went on.

Speaker 1 (12:06):
I like speaking to I just had someone from a Union
and the relationship between thecomplexity of a career, a job,
especially one that's, if you'reinjured, you can not only lose
your life, but what do you do?
You're 30, you can break yourback, your hip, extreme burns

(12:28):
that these jobs need a voice, anorganized voice, to protect
their future, or if they've lostthe ability to work.
I just always find thatinteresting that most people are
removed from that kind oforganization and I always like
to talk a little bit about itbecause your career is real
distinct in the sense.
Unlike other jobs, you could goto work and maybe have to work

(12:52):
three, four days in a row, andthen you go home and you could
see some horrifying shit.
And what does this do to aperson who might have a
virgining addiction to beginwith?
And is the addiction now a toolto help with work stresses?
Seeing high acuity, trauma fromcar accidents to burn victims,

(13:14):
even domestic violence.
Firefighters are on the scene.
For what does this do to aperson and how do you not take
that home, especially if theaddiction is rising up in your
life?

Speaker 2 (13:26):
Well, it's absolutely a part of it.
As I look back, work my waythrough this program, work my
way through the steps andrecovery, I see that I did drink
and use a lot at those things.
But when I'm in it I know Ican't see that and I have to put
up the facade.
That's a big part of Shieldstoo, that facade that I'm okay.
The ego what do we call this?

(13:48):
Eagle maniacs with inferioritycomplexes?
Right, yeah, and I'm like holycrap, that absolutely applied to
me.
You know that I can't admit thatI'm weak because I'm afraid of
how that's gonna help.
People are gonna look at me.
Okay, I can't ask for helpbecause I'm the helper.
And if I ask for help I'm gonnalook weak amongst people,

(14:11):
amongst my peers.
It's gonna all the stuff in myhead that's gonna cause mistrust
.
I'm not gonna be looked at asthis super guy and it's insanity
.
And I tell the guys that comein that that attitude will kill
you.
Okay, that will kill you If youare an addict or an alcoholic,
that having that attitude of ego, your ego, will kill you.

(14:32):
And they you know some of themare a little taken aback by that
, but so many of them just like,holy shit, man, you're right,
you know that's what it is, thatwe are the helpers.
We don't ask for help period.
And so what's our alternative?
Right, drink it away.
Drug it away.
Don't feel, you know.
You know, like to use thatcliche, but numb ourselves, you

(14:53):
know, to the stuff we've seenand the stuff we're feeling,
because we don't have any otheroutlet for it.

Speaker 1 (14:58):
Yeah, and when you started, I mean there's been so
many shifts and changes since1989 with what that job could do
to someone, what it could do,you know, for cops, firefighters
and even mentioned vets.
Ptsd wasn't a term until, likeyou know, after 2000 that it

(15:21):
started to have its own symptoms, kind of these ideas of it.
But to have imagery in yourhead or a reoccurring thought of
something you've seen or couldproduce itself in nightmares I
was reading about it.
I think you'd find thisinteresting path.
What happens also is that youcan't put things in a long term
memory.
So, whatever the conflict was,so you see some horrifying

(15:46):
violence or a car accident, itwon't go into long term memory.
So your brain, your amygdala,is constantly scanning for
threats because this is going tokeep happening, like the events
still happening subconsciously.
So you're always at aheightened sense.
So like dropping a pen mightmake you snap the hell out and I

(16:07):
think addicts have a generalanxiety like that.
But you guys are on the frontlines of stuff, so it's really
really heightened.
Alcohol at first, in thebeginning of addiction, would be
great relief to that.
It would make you feel relieved.

Speaker 2 (16:23):
Yeah, yeah, okay, that suppressed that memory for
now.
Yeah, but excuse me.
But then as the time goes by,especially years, as I've
learned from our awesome, one ofour awesome clinical counselors
up there who, don, who is ahuge part, she's the main, she's
the program director of theShields as the clinical part of

(16:44):
it and she said something onceto a bunch of we were sitting
there having a session and shesaid something and that a PTSD
she has learned.
She's VA trained by the way,I'll put that out there in
trauma therapy, and this is atBrookdale.
At Brookdale, yes, donna's our,she's our top clinician for the
Shields and she said you know,it doesn't seem to creep in

(17:05):
until about maybe five years orso.
I'm not big on timelines, sure,but she says around five years
or so.
This is when it starts topresent.
And there was like three orfour vets there that just went
like right to her immediatelyafterwards it said Holy shit,
man, we didn't know what washappening.
Wow, yeah, it was like a bigrevel, even for me as well.

(17:26):
Yeah, me too.
These guys just had this holyshit Like we didn't know what
was happening to us.

Speaker 1 (17:30):
It must have been that number five.
That must have made completesense to them.
Her reputation precedes her.
People speak really highly ofDonna.

Speaker 2 (17:38):
Well, not to get un-chronological, but when I,
when I went to Brookdale, youknow, when I went up there
because I had, I had gonethrough a program similar,
because of my stature in thefirst responder world that
everyone would call it andbecause you know the I guess,
the work that people theattraction, right, joe, the work
people saw that I was doing,you know I was.
I was going back up to Marworth.

(17:59):
I was running little groups upthere on Monday night, totally
informal but carrying a message.
You know, working, the working,the program.
People saw me at meetings.
People saw me, you know, asponsor and taking people to the
book, just doing the work.
And I asked our old CEO.
I said why are you offeringthis to me?
He said.
He said, look, I got one job.
I was, you know, nick, nick C.
Yeah, okay, he said I got onejob I ever applied for.

(18:20):
He said the rest of the peopletold me screw you.
He said everything else in mylife has been hey, can we talk
to you, can we talk to you aboutsomething?
Because they saw I was doingthe next right thing.
And he said that's why I'moffering this to you.
So when I went up there I justit was kind of loosely based,
you know, because they had itwas something I had to get.
I got up there before it wasreally up and ready to go.

(18:40):
So I've been, like you know,slogging at it and but when they
asked me to put together a a, aa gave them an outline of a
program I knew the clinical partwas was huge.
It had to be.
There had to be clinical partsbecause we had that up there
small groups with the cliniciansitting in all the time.
It couldn't just be me.
Okay, I'm not a clinician, I'mjust another recovered A hole.

(19:01):
Okay, that was like them thatthey were going to relate to.
And Don was the first person Ithought of.
Don was I just know she was noBS.
Okay, she was a school, she hadthe trauma training from the VA
.
And when I put down theclinicians I would like Don was
first number one and there was,you know, other people but Don

(19:22):
was number one and she's provenit.
You know.
She's proven time and timeagain that she's she can relate.
It doesn't, it doesn't matter,she's also a family member, so
she does have that also has thatside to her too, you know.

Speaker 1 (19:34):
I was wondering how, like I put together because it
was quick, broke the one up andit just seemed like a real home
for the shields.

Speaker 2 (19:40):
Yeah, you know, and I , like I've been Eddie, eddie
Allen, one of the old, the oldCEO, said like he, how did he
put it?
He said I've been like a oneman wrecking crew for like a
couple of years because I'd justbeen trying to keep it together
, keep a cobble together,because I don't know it was, it
was slow developing, let me letme put it this way and there was
a lot of transition and therewas a lot of people leaving that

(20:01):
were it was just crazy.
So finally, now that we havesome stability, it's been really
taking some shape now.
Yeah, it really has been.
So I'm I'm so thrilled, I'mgrateful for that too, because
it's so important.

Speaker 1 (20:14):
Pop them back to your story.
Sure, when did you firstrealize alcohol or your drugs of
choice were not working to getthat same relief that you talked
about earlier?
And what did that cause panic.

Speaker 2 (20:27):
I didn't.
I didn't really know I was justgoing along.
Well, no, let me, let me.
That's kind of a BS, because Iwould look in the mirror and say
what the hell are you doing?
And and how does this end?
And I don't.
I could see no good ending, andat this.

Speaker 1 (20:45):
you were pretty much in public life too, oh yeah,
yeah.
This was the first year of mytenure.
That makes things different,and I'm not saying that you're
different.
Well, you know, we don't saythat but there's a public
scrutiny?
If there's, you know that'sextra pressure.
I can't expose this.
I have to keep the secret.
I'll solve it on my own terms.
Was that going on, joe?

Speaker 2 (21:04):
more than more than most people, the alcoholic leads
a double life.
Right, it's right in our bookman.
Right in my book.
You know you that, you know I,I I enjoy a certain, a certain
amount of you know, like all theaccolades, a certain reputation
, but I know in my heart I don'tdeserve it.
That's and that's the battleman.
That is not like I don't, Ijust nobody can find out, but

(21:26):
it's insanity.
I can't.
Is anybody going to leave it inthat paranoia and I don't want
to feel that today.
So I'm going to do this evenmore.
Yeah, and that's the insanity,that's the insane world I was
living in and looking at my,looking in the mirror, it's like
I said, like how does this end?
And I could see no good endingto it.
And then to to answer, I guess,your question, when I finally

(21:46):
realized it, when I was, when Iwas called on my BS.
You know I'll keep, I'll leavethe details, you know, to
another time.
Come to a meeting if you want.

Speaker 1 (21:54):
Come to a meeting.
You'll hear them, I know thedetails.

Speaker 2 (21:57):
Come to a meeting you know, and I was called on my BS
by a very prominent person inthe community who, thank God,
was one of one of me, one of us,and he gave me the courage and
he said look, man, if you needsome help, I will help you, but
you got to tell me right now, orelse this is going to be bad
and let me ask you this, sir,you didn't think he set me up.

Speaker 1 (22:16):
There was no power.
You, you saw, in that momentthis person cared and wanted to
help, really help, he said he.

Speaker 2 (22:22):
I remembered exactly Joe.
He said look, I know whatyou're thinking, you know where
the hell am I going from here,cause I couldn't see my future
five feet in front of my face.
He said I know what you'rethinking.
And he said you know I'm, youknow where my position is now
and you know where I'm going ina couple of months I'm going
into an even higher position.
And he said I have been throughthis, I'll help you.

(22:45):
And I was like, oh my God, thisman has given me a courage,
he's shown me.
Do I tell him me this?
Okay, and the hope he's givenme, but like, life doesn't end
now, my life isn't over now,cause I'm looking at this man.
He's moving on to anotherposition, a higher, prominent
position.
I'm thinking that was the hope,that was that.
And the hope was there becausein the beginning, man, when he

(23:05):
first confronted me, the egokicked it screw you.
I know who you are.
Do you know who I think that Iam?
You know that kind of crap, orhe?

Speaker 1 (23:13):
finds.
He tried to leverage me.
Like you know politics, youcould you never know what the
agenda is, or but not a genuine.

Speaker 2 (23:20):
It was genuine, and, and at the end of it all I said,
instead of screw you coming outof my mouth, please help me.
I want some help.
Wow, that was it.
Joe, that was that first steppromise.
Right, the moment I made thedecision to go through with the
through with it the process, Ihad the relief, Like I, I got a
way out now, Cause I couldn'tsee any way out.
You know, wow, the mask was off.

(23:42):
Buddy, you can't, you can'tunder render.

Speaker 1 (23:44):
Yes, Both lives kind of start to merge.
Now I'm Pat that wants help.
I want the paranoia to end.
I want to end them and it'sessentially happening pre
shields.
This is a shields program cause.
It's people who have anotherlayer of loyalty when it comes
to first responders, lawenforcement.

(24:04):
That's a real distinct world.
I'm not saying it's differentthan any other alcoholic, but
there's a distinction ofprotection of families, your job
cops, of rested people thatthey may be in the rooms with.
That's gotta be scary.

Speaker 2 (24:24):
Oh I.
Well, my sponsor is lawenforcement, but you know it's
principles before personalities,right?
He says that I've, I've takenguys through the book that I've
arrested, seriously.
And that's what it has to be.
You know, cause, when I dealwith a lot of officers, ceos,
you know corrections, guys, andthey're like I can't.
I said this is what my sponsortells me.
Okay, yeah, I've taken peoplethrough the book principles

(24:46):
before, personalities Okay, youhave to show them.
And you know, I have so manystories.
But my sponsor said, when hewent to treatment, he said I
first lecture, I'm ready to gointo the lecture, and I leaned
into the one of the the textsare the one of the counselors,
and I said hey, you know, by theway, I'm a cop.
And he said he leaned, he saidyou're an alcoholic, get in the
meeting.
Yeah, that was very humbling,you know, but that's what it was

(25:10):
.
Yeah, and you know, we used tosaid something that we're not
different, we're not better than, not less than, but we, there
is a difference.
Okay, when I, when I got into,when I got into Mara that was
sitting at the calf Joe, likewhat the hell am I doing here?
Like holy, holy crap, like Ican't believe this, and two guys
, two FDNY guys, came over andthey said hey, man, we're your

(25:31):
buddies and there's more of ushere.
And it was like all right, andthat sense of relief that I
immediately got that okay.
And I see that one when I go,when I go down to the guys in
detox, that the shields that arecoming in, and I say, hey, I
let them know who I am, what I'mdoing here, and I could, I
could see that sense of okay,you know like safety trust you

(25:54):
know what I mean, that I couldsee it.

Speaker 1 (25:56):
I was in Marworth, one of the 15 treatment centers
I went to Pat.
It was a.
There was a whole group of guysthere, though there was one old
timer that was a firefighterand I.
They had a nickname for himbecause he did his entire tour
was when the Bronx was burningand it was like a Bronx burning
kind of nickname.

(26:16):
But the sense of fellowship theyhad, especially on entry, it
just looked so healthy, Likethey were really protecting each
other and helping each other,and in groups like I'd end up
sometimes in a firefighter groupto see them one person take the
lead to share about somethingreal stuff.

(26:38):
It was like a domino effectthat they would all it was just
waiting to let out their realstory.

Speaker 2 (26:44):
And when I was again, not better than at last, than
just different.
As you know, mara is right inmy backyard, so I don't know
who's in there, I don't knowwhat their agenda is.
So I'm pretty damn sure thatI'm not gonna share everything
in an open community.
And had I not had the shieldsthere in the beginning?

(27:05):
Because we gotta get honest,you know that we gotta be open,
we gotta trust, we gotta learnall those skills, and if it
weren't for the shields group, Idon't know that I would have
done that in an open community.
If I had gone to a facilitythat didn't have a shield,
program was once we got intosmall group, man, I felt safe.

Speaker 1 (27:21):
So let me ask a simple question what is shields?
Who does it include, and wouldit be it's cops?

Speaker 2 (27:29):
Yes, police, firefighters, corrections, EMS,
healthcare, people that work inany of those fields.
I came in like a nurse thatrides on an ambulance.
Emts, EMTs yes, absolutely.
Dispatchers and veterans allbranches.

Speaker 1 (27:47):
So this includes all the shields and what is the
distinction?
What is the shields outside ofhaving their own clinician?
Like, how would you just giveme a summary of what makes it a
program?

Speaker 2 (28:00):
We start a identification.
We buddy them up buddy to buddy.
Shields.
We try to room as best as wecan.
Yeah, we have our clinician forthe small groups.
It's all those the shields guystogether for the small groups
and they work on the clinicalstuff.
They work.
Talk about DBT, okay, they talkabout all the different

(28:22):
therapies, the clinical stuff.
And then for our specialtygroups they're from two, they're
twice a week and it's just theshields again and that's where
the trauma part works.
Okay, but other than that, andthen on the other thing, if we
have people that wanna go forrelapse prevention, early

(28:42):
sobriety, grief, those are theother specialty groups that are
offering.
We 100% encourage them to do so.
Nobody's forced to come into.
And then nobody's forced tocome into the to participate in
the program we offer to them.
And 99.9% rate is like, yeah, Iwant that.
That's awesome, I wanna be partof that.

Speaker 1 (29:04):
And how does someone who's say an EMT, they're
curious about their own theystart making calls?
If they went through theirunion, would the union be able
to articulate shields programsto them like a shields program?

Speaker 2 (29:17):
That's one of the things that I'm gonna say on
this.
I've been frustrated with overthe last couple of years, but
now I think we have a littletraction where we are going to
start getting out there and toactively promote.
That'd be awesome.
Okay, like I travel todifferent departments, travel
just.

Speaker 1 (29:35):
I believe, Put a presentation on and then maybe
you could have.

Speaker 2 (29:40):
You know, I did a whole interview, a whole video
that was on Facebook for a while.
A while back I saw it, it'sbeautiful.
And that disappeared again.
It was like, hey, here we go,and then the rugs pulled out,
yeah.
So I think hopefully now we'regonna get some traction,
especially into the promotionpart of it, because some guys

(30:00):
come in and say I didn't evenknow this existed, but then
others say I heard from word ofmouth that it did.
So we gotta try to tighten thatup a little bit.
I believe and again, these arethings that are way above my pay
grade, so to speak, but thingsthat I would love to see happen
and things that I've beenpushing since the beginning.

Speaker 1 (30:18):
It would just be good to know that I have a brother
in law enforcement, that theyalways know that there is a way
for them to go to treatment thatdoesn't expose them.
They're not gonna be around thepeople they arrested, or like
that idea that could maybe makethem pause just long enough that
a real tragedy could happen,Like there's no hiccup there.

Speaker 2 (30:40):
Yeah, yeah, to enter in treatment.
I knew when your brother and Iwe've actually we've carried the
message together for some time,for a little while we were
going up to him over together.

Speaker 1 (30:49):
He makes a distinction.
He goes to Shield's meetingsbecause he needs support.
He goes to meetings thatservice, you know, and for him,
like that was early on now, hedoesn't care.
But in the beginning theShield's was for him Exactly To
talk about things he wasn'tgonna talk about at a meeting.

Speaker 2 (31:06):
Exactly, yeah, at my core I'm an addict, I'm an
alcoholic, but in the beginning,like I said, that helped me
tremendously.
Yeah, I think so.

Speaker 1 (31:17):
What drew you to so you had this run in with Nick.
It awakens up a new career path.
Let me ask you this If there's atrend you know back with
treatments, maybe centers overthe last 15 years or so, a
departure formally, I'll put inquotations from the 12 steps and

(31:42):
making sure things that are inliterature or presented in
groups have more of a clinicaldescription, summary and you see
people leaving from the 12 stepbeing part of a modality that
can happen within the treatmentcenter.
Brookdeals embrace classic 12steps, letting that be part of

(32:04):
some of the programming and thisis a big portion of what you
teach.
Tell me about that.

Speaker 2 (32:09):
Okay, yeah, I'll talk about the big book all day, joe
, because it saved my life.
You know, the 12 steps ofAlcoholics Anonymous, the
principles have saved my life,changed my life to.
You know, I kind of never see,like they say, life beyond your
wildest dreams.
I think that's corny, but it'strue, you know.
So a while back, when I wasfirst going there, I was just

(32:33):
kind of floating around like Isaid, not knowing what I'm doing
.
So I would just, you know, talkto people about the book, be it
informal.
Go talk to Pat about the steps,go and talk with the shields
and, you know, start doing somestep work, because it doesn't
say you have to wait until youget out of treatment, to it.
It's when you want what we haveand you're ready to do anything
, then you are ready.
Those are the words, okay, so,and it just kind of got informal

(32:54):
.
And then they said you knowwhat?
We think we need a big bookstudy.
And I was like, all right,let's do it.
So every weekday I would do abig book study.
And you know the differencebetween Brookdale and where I
went was, you know, when I went,here's your big book.
We got the steps all over thewall and we're gonna talk about
A, but we're never really gonnadelve into the big book.

(33:15):
Sure, and I don't know ifthey've changed that yet,
because I can't contest to that,but at the time it was just
like here's your big book andhere's AA, but we're not really
gonna talk about AA, we're gonnado all the other stuff.
And which was whatever.
What did I know?
But I have found, you know, Iknow how I changed my life.
You know, the clinical part wasawesome and here's let me put

(33:35):
it this way, if I can, you know,when people don't want to talk
about aftercare, aftercare forme was suggested that you know,
go here, come back up here forsix weeks, twice a week.
And I was like, okay, you know,I don't really want to.
But my sponsor said, well, isthere a job?
Ramification?
I said no.
He said then why dismiss it outof hand?
I said you know what?
Okay, fair enough.

(33:55):
So I went there and it wasawesome.
I clipped with my therapist.
It was great.
I got a lot of good stuff.
Meanwhile, joe, in those sixweeks, I was five weeks into the
book.
Okay, yeah, I came out running.
You get out.
I came out, I wanted this.
I had my sponsor, I was makingmeetings.
I said I want to change nowCause, luckily well, let me kind

(34:17):
of back up when I was sittingthere, I remember talking about
God putting people in your liferight.
When I got called to my BS onthat Wednesday, my future
sponsor was sitting in the roomwith this other fellow.
Okay, and that was on aWednesday.
I went to, I went to treatmenton Friday, monday, eight PM is a
shields group, okay, and whocomes strolling in?
But my sponsor, my futuresponsor.

(34:39):
I'm like what are you doinghere?
He said, oh well, one of ourADAs, their, his sister, is the
admissions director here.
And she said hey, your friend,your friend John, he's sober,
right, I think he'd come up andtalk to the guys.
He said so I've been doing it.
She said I've been doing thatfor a while.
So I was told the story.
These four kids come in becausethey're kids, my sponsors, two
years older than my oldest son,four kids this John, john, john

(34:59):
and Jesse it's over boy band.
I used to call them right,strolling in with their big
books.
Right, ricky, ronnie, bobby,mike, here they come, and that's
where I learned about the book,because we'd just be talking
like you and I, and they go holdon and they'd open up the book
and they talk and they'd pullsomething out of it and we talk
some more and it whoa, whoa,whoa.
Here's where it talks aboutthat in here.
And it's like these kids havewhat I want and they keep

(35:22):
talking about this damn book.
There's gotta be something toit, okay.

Speaker 1 (35:26):
And was it disarming to think it's A?
Not, it's not their opinion,there's A.
You see something differentabout their personality.
He have a little idea of whothey are.
But the fact that they'resourcing their ideas from a book
kind of disarms you that orcreates an interest that okay.
It's just not some any guytelling me something.

(35:49):
Whatever he thinks aboutalcoholism or hobbies, it's
coming from a book.
Yeah, yeah, right, Disarms you,right.
What is with that?

Speaker 2 (35:56):
yeah, what's with this book, dave?
Oh, so, this, okay.
So, and you know, you've heardthe saying it's not a novel,
it's meant to be taught, it's amanual.
And that was another thing thathelps me relate to the guys is
I say you know, in all of ourprofessions here we're trained.
Okay, we have a training manual, this is your training manual.

(36:16):
And when we're in a jam, whatare we told?
Revert to your training.
Yeah, that's what this book is,man, that's what these steps
are.
They're your training.
And when you're in jam, yourefer back to the steps.

Speaker 1 (36:27):
So you're seeing guys from all different age classes
50s, retired, 30s, 20s, guysjust on the job.
Are you seeing?
How do you creatively get pastthe language?
Language changes every 10 years, even if it's the same word,
the way it's used.
The big book's hard to read,and I don't mean hard to read.

(36:47):
It's hard to have theexperience by yourself.
When do you see that the wordscome alive to them and what are
you doing to make thatinteresting to a person that's
in their 30s or 40s?
That is like that's what thatmeans, that's what that's saying
, and to think they might neverrelate to a guy from 80 years
ago in New York to watch thathappen.

(37:11):
What are the things you'reusing to make the words come
alive to them in these workshops?

Speaker 2 (37:18):
Really, simply, is my experience, me and, like you,
would do it with you.
That's how it was taught to me,right?
That's how it was shown to me,cause I read it three times.
I'm a pretty smart guy, right?
Just ask us, we're pretty smartguys.
I read it in treatment, read itright out of treatment, and the
third time, when John would say, okay, this is the chapter
we're reading this week, this iswhat we're working on this week

(37:39):
, I would read it again.
And it wasn't until, right, hesat across from me, joe, read it
to me, stopped, showed me theaction, showed me the promises,
interspersed his own experiencewhere, oh, that's what it is,
okay.
That's where the connectioncame, the relation that it was
just interjecting my ownexperiences, cause it doesn't

(38:01):
matter how old or young, or thedrug or the drink, it's just my
thoughts, my behaviors and,again, I was keeping it real
simple my consequences, andthese are the things that I seem
to find out that people canrelate to.
So when they asked me to do I'msorry, I got way out of track
when they asked me to do a bigbook study, I was like, yeah,

(38:22):
let's do it.
And it was just, it wasoptional at the first, okay, so
it would have a smattering ofpeople.
But then it started growingmore and more and more and then
they decided to make itmandatory.
And I'll tell you, at first,honestly, I was like, oh, this
is gonna be crap.
You know, I'm gonna have peoplecoming in here screwing around,
not wanting to be here, and Ikind of resisted it at first.

(38:43):
But you know, it's like and Ido pretty much tell them look, I
really don't, I'm gonna, Idon't know hope, I don't give a
shit if you come here or not.
Okay, you could leave if youwant.
I'm not, I'm not gonna squealon you, because I said I have
only one requirement If you comehere, respect those who wanna
be here.
It's real simple.
If you feel like you gotta talk, screw around, just leave, go
back to your cab but I won'tsqueal on you.

Speaker 1 (39:05):
I promise I cause this curiosity.
I did a big book workshop atAvenus and you could tell we're
following instructions from it.
I did the same thing.
Hey, if you don't wanna be here, we need an app.
Just take a, take a nap here,just don't snore, yeah, but
check out, man, if you don'twanna be in here.
I'm not selling Cadillacs, I'mjust.

(39:26):
We're just reading a book.
I'm gonna tell you exactly whatit means.

Speaker 2 (39:31):
I love it and that was it, that's it and you know
what it does.
It does.
It's a curiosity and like now Ibelieve, and from what I've
been told, it's like the mostpopular group up there and I
love that people again from 20to 60 and 70 are just taking it
in.
I just keep the open mind rightand, like at the end of the

(39:51):
doctor's opinion, some of youmaybe came to scoff, but now you
may hopefully remain to pray,like maybe you came here
thinking what is this voodoo,this crap, this religious crap,
this cult stuff?
So maybe you came to scoff,okay, but hopefully you'll stay
and pray, you'll just keep theopen mind and just keep coming
back and then just saying holyand make that connection, that

(40:13):
holy crap.
Like these two guys are me, I'mthem and you know what they're
telling me, that they did thisand changed their life.
Maybe I should do that and Ilove doing it.
And also to give it's just notthe 12 steps, just not the book.

(40:33):
I'm sorry, aa, I should saythat's five days a week, but
they offer other alternativeslike of programs, because then
we need something when we getout of here.
The clinicians are gone out ofour lives, so we need some
programs.
So they have NA on alternativedays.
They go alternative to the bigbook.
Big book is five days a week.
They have Dharma okay, theyhave Dharma recovery.

(40:54):
I've been going to Dharma Okay,they have Dharma.
They have smart recovery okay,and then they have NA.
So what Brookdale?
To their credit, they also havealternative avenues, but things
that we need.
When we leave here, when weleave the bubble of treatment,
so to speak, we need these somesort of fellowship programs, and
they offer those, which is, Ithink, well way beyond what

(41:16):
other inpatient facilities do.

Speaker 1 (41:17):
They're doing a really good job.
I was just there for a visit.

Speaker 2 (41:20):
Can?
I saw you.

Speaker 1 (41:21):
It's just, yeah, it's the quality of staff, the
grounds, the programs being used, the content in the programs.
It's just impressive, it's veryimpressive.
So, and to note this, here weare, we're marketing shields.

Speaker 2 (41:42):
Thank you for that.
I appreciate that because it'simportant that it doesn't get
out there and that's why I'malways glad to promote and I'm
always glad to tell my story,because my story is my story.
It's who I was Okay, it's notwho I am today.
I like to think that I am.
I know that I'm not that person.
I like to think I'm a prettygood dude these days.
I was saying I'm not Gandhi byany means, but I'm a pretty good

(42:03):
guy these days, yeah you're agood guy.

Speaker 1 (42:05):
You've helped a lot of people, pat.
I've watched it.
You've helped me.
I came lumping back in here.
You saw it swollen head.
We came around just piggybackedoff the same amount of time
coming back.
You're very helpful to me.
I appreciate it.
Shields one last note shieldsAre there in the region.

(42:25):
Are there meetings?
Not to say where there are, butare there informal meetings?
And I wanted to see, is therealumni services that people
could reach out?

Speaker 2 (42:36):
One there.
There are 100% like I don'tknow of any.
I truly don't know of anyShields based meetings.
I've always thought I want toentertain the thought of having
that.
But what my sponsor and I havedone, quick history.
We were going, I, for beforethe pandemic hit I had to go mid
going up to Marworth for likefive years.
Like, yeah, I can count on twohands how many days I missed,

(42:57):
because that's what helped me.
I had had that.
I missed, in fact, the firstfive years.
Then COVID comes along.
So they actually called me andsaid we can you guys come up,
you know, one at a time, we'llallow it.
And I said, yeah, we'll figuresomething out.
Because we had sometimes wewere Outnumbered the patients,
like we'd be going up there six,eight strong.
You know, you know, seriously,man was crazy but it was awesome

(43:17):
.
So Called me back within acouple hours.
I said you know we're shuttingeverything down.
So like, okay, now what do wedo?
So John, to his credit, saidlet's get zoom going.
Okay, so we've been having.
We've been having is we have aFriday night zoom meeting, 1800
hours?
First responders will knowthat's 6 pm.
Okay, 1800 hours every Fridaynight.

(43:39):
I don't know if you could postit somewhere, if I could just
say it out loud.
Yeah, so I'll just say it outloud enough Anybody's gonna
listen.
We have you can get.
I'll give you a two seconds.
They get a pen.
Our ID number is 410 821 1 4, 1, 4 and the password is 21030.
And that's every Friday night,1800 hours.

(44:02):
It's, it's a just an infinite.
It's not an aim, it's just aninformal time.
We get about 20, sometimes 30people coming on there, shields
from all different disciplinesPlease fire corrections, all the
ones I mentioned veterans andwe just come on.
A lot of Marworth grads, a lotof Brookdale grads, a lot of
people just hear about itword-of-mouth and jump on to
check it out.
Just a bunch of peers hangingout on a Friday night for an

(44:23):
Hour to stay sober, one morehour.
And you know it's, it's.
We've been doing that for likea couple of years now.
Probably two and a half yearshave been doing that.
I get the word out for that.

Speaker 1 (44:30):
Thank you.

Speaker 2 (44:32):
And now we still go to mark.
We're back on a Marworth, butnow we have like about 10 people
.
We do like two-man crews.
I have my, my rider die girl ismy, my friend, while Kira, two
and a half years now sober.
There's a side story here.
Like I've been helping, workingwith this girl for a long time,
I met her in not to matriculatein tomorrow, but met her through
Marworth, so many and I to thepoint where I had a.

(44:53):
I had a blocker.
She came back to Brookdale andI had a blocker because I said
I'm not watching you killyourself.
Oh man, yeah.
And then she came out, she, shetexted me.
She called me from, actuallyfrom her daughter's phone and
she said if I I'm going totreatment again, if I, when I
come out, if I'm serious, willyou still help me?
They said, of course I will,I'm never gonna abandon you, but
I'm not watching you killyourself.

(45:13):
And that was a little over twoand a half years ago.
So she and she moved toScranton.
Now she's, she's a Marine slash, retired NYPD, she's fireman,
you know, and she's she's, she'sawesome, she's my rider, she's
my partner on Monday nightsbecause she had moved to
Scranton.
Now she lives in the Scrantonarea.
Congratulations.
Yeah, so she's my rider, dieMarworth girl.
Now, I mean, as a matter offact, we're going up tomorrow

(45:34):
night, she and I so, but we havelike a group of 10, 12 people
and we do two-man crews.

Speaker 1 (45:39):
And one, one question I had before I kind of wind
down.
That's the peer-to-peer andthat's where a lot of our
long-term, real transformativethings happen, be it through the
12 steps as for severe trauma.
Clinically how would youdescribe their approach to it

(46:00):
and are they using anytechniques that are new or
interesting, like EMDR, and Doesthat continue after you know
initial treatment?
I've you've been seeing guyspursue in these groups a Deeper
dive into trauma, or are theyjust doing a fourth and fifth
step?

Speaker 2 (46:19):
Well, you know it's, it's To you for the first part
of the question.
That's where.
That's where our specialtygroups come in.
There there is, don has a pro.
Don has drawn up and she hasactually written a pro.
She has a program drawn up thatshe because that's what she
did- in her.

Speaker 1 (46:33):
She identifies the trauma first.

Speaker 2 (46:35):
Yes, Every, every every Tuesday and Thursday, she
works on a different base of thetrauma therapy.
Okay, that's that's what thespecialty groups are about.
As I said, the small groups,the daily small groups, are more
about the clinical stuff.
Yeah, okay, and Tuesday andThursday are trauma dedicated,
which is, which is awesome.
You know, that's where the deepdive, you did say that.

Speaker 1 (46:55):
I just guess.
I wanted to just make that lastnote too, you know she's.

Speaker 2 (46:58):
She'll admit.
She said I can't really dotrauma work here because 30 days
I certainly not enough toreally to really do it.
So I just give everybody alittle, a little opening open
the door a little bit, you know,give them a little food for
thought, give them a littlestart, a little traction and a
lot of from what I, from whatI've heard from my feedback is a
lot of our guys and girls sayyou know what I'm gonna get?

(47:18):
I've got needed, that this iswhat I need.
Yeah, I need to get a therapistalong with Working the other
things out here.

Speaker 1 (47:24):
Yeah, I've seen a lot a coupled with 12-step support,
then therapy.
Once they pick the track in theapproach, which there's some
interesting ones happening, newand developing ones that People
are getting a lot of relief,resolving things that Never
stopped.
Never stopped the pain or theanxiety, a constant sense that a

(47:46):
threat is looming, mm-hmm, itjust wouldn't subside, even in
like early sobriety.

Speaker 2 (47:52):
Yeah, yeah.
So I'm glad I'm, and if this iseven on track.
But I know I've seen peopleI've never been diagnosed with
PTSD okay, I don't ever, indoubt, diagnosed with it but
I've seen many Combat bats comein and say, look man, I.
I came back for my tour and youknow I was all messed up but I

(48:13):
got into the fellowship, okay,and I worked the steps in my
life and that that has been abelieved, you know, and it's
this Program of ours is amazing.
It truly is.
It's a blessing and it can takeso many things from us, even
anxiety, depression, you know,fear, ptsd.
It's a relief, you know,because we have that.

(48:33):
I'm gonna say it out.
They have to have a higherpower.
I got in my life and I it's aresiliency to.

Speaker 1 (48:40):
I always tell young guys that you know if I'm
working with them.
They have, you know, anannounced extreme anxiety
disorder.
I mean, can you imagine havinganxiety and being alright with
it?
I'm not saying like let'spretend it doesn't go away, do
you?
Can you see a space where youcould have anxiety and you're

(49:01):
still alright?
There's a space there and I gotoffered that Through a lot of
step work and and the 11th step,mm-hmm me, that you can be
upset, you can be sad, badthings can happen, but I could
be a witness of it.
I don't have to become it.

Speaker 2 (49:18):
Yeah, I like that, yeah yeah, yeah, and they
certainly don't have to todestroy myself over it either.

Speaker 1 (49:24):
Yeah, so we know where the the shields zoom could
be found.
I will post Brookdale's Websiteup here.
Yeah, is there anything Ishould have asked you?
Maybe I didn't get around to.

Speaker 2 (49:38):
I Think we got it all .
I really.
I just want to say I reallyappreciate you coming on me.
I hope I did.
All right, you know, sometimesyou know we'll let the audience
greatest.
I just kind of shoot from thehip kind of thing.
But I, I just how I have is mystory, Joe.
Yeah, all I have is what I didand and how I and how I changed,
and that is as the result of,as the result of the steps

(49:59):
period for me, okay, and all ofthe clinical stuff that
everybody's doing is amazing andI was glad I went.
I went to treatment with theopen mind, truly open mind.
I embraced it and I tell peoplethat don't fight this.
Embrace what's going on here,take this, this grace that
you're getting, that have achance to change your life.
And and I did that and I'm, youknow, I'm a one and done, or,

(50:22):
as they say, you know, I'm happyto say that.
You know, april 12th, 20, 2015,okay, I got called on my crap
and I'm a one and done, or,since then, because I
surrendered and accepted andsaid you know what?
How can I?
I want to change, please helpme.
There was those, please help me.
Those.
Those are my words.
There was.
I've never looked back, joe,thank you, by the grace of God,

(50:44):
and that's so.
That's what I like to helppeople and that's what we're
told, right, brother?
Yeah, we carry the message, wegive it away to keep it and and
that helps me stay sober.

Speaker 1 (50:53):
That's a great place to start.
Please help me.

Speaker 2 (50:56):
Please help me.

Speaker 1 (50:56):
Yeah, you can learn anything when you're asking that
.
Well, guys, that's anotherepisode.
Pat, I'd like to thank youagain for coming on, and I'll
talk soon.

Speaker 2 (51:06):
All right, brother, thank you so much.

Speaker 1 (51:10):
I'd like to thank you for listening to another
episode of all better.
To find us on all better, dotFM, or listen to us on Apple
podcast, spotify, google podcaststitcher, I heart radio and
Alexa.
Special thanks to our producer,john Edwards, and engineering

(51:32):
company five, seven oh, drone.
Please like or subscribe to uson YouTube, facebook, instagram
or Twitter and, if you're not,on social media you're awesome.
Looking forward to seeing youagain.
And remember, just becauseyou're sober doesn't mean you're

(51:52):
right.
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