August 20, 2024 • 25 mins
In this episode of "And Now, Love," Cynthia Marks sits down with Zach Coco, a professional photographer who has recently completed a poignant book titled "World War Two Heroes." Inspired by his late grandfather, a WWII Navy veteran, Zach embarked on a mission to document the stories of over 100 veterans, ensuring their sacrifices and experiences are never forgotten. Throughout the conversation, Zach shares touching anecdotes from his interviews, the emotional journeys he has undertaken with veterans to historic battle sites, and the profound impact these experiences have had on him. This episode delves into the importance of preserving history, understanding the personal cost of war, and the power of forgiveness.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:04):
Hi, I'mCynthia Marks, and I head up the Holistic
Psychoanalysis Foundationestablished by my late husband, Dr.
Bernard Bail.
Welcome to And now, love.
Zach Coco is with us today.
He is a professional photographerby trade.
In fact,he's even taken photos in this studio.
(00:27):
We didn't know that until today.
Zach recently completed a booktitled World War Two Heroes.
It is a precious compilationof the stories
of many World War Two veterans.
Some time ago, Zachrealized that the information these vets
have, their stories and their insights
(00:47):
should not disappear with their passings.
Zach and I know each otherbecause he came to our home
and interviewed BernardBernard's World War Two.
Experience changed the course of his life,and I am pleased
that Zach was able to learn of itand put it in writing for us.
Thank you for being here, Zach.
This is great.Yeah, Thank you for having me.
(01:09):
Of course.
It's a pleasure.
And what you've done is terrific.
And the first thing I want to ask is
how did you come to decidethat you ought to do this?
Well, my grandfather was a World WarTwo veteran, and he served in the Navy.
And he was my hero growing up.
I always looked up to him.
He instilled a lot of a lotof moral values that I have today.
(01:29):
And I always wanted to sit downand interview him
and kind of learn about his servicehistory.
I knew little tidbits hereand there that my dad had kind of told me,
but I moved away from from homewhen I was 18
and I'd make it homemaybe once a year, you know, after that.
And the time never seemed right,or I just always felt like I had
(01:52):
the opportunityand it would always be there.
But more time in the future. Always.
Always, always push it down the road.
But yeah, yeah.
He got, he got sick and he, he, he died.
And that kind of litlit the bulb in my head.
And I realized this whole generationwas kind of leaving us rather quickly.
And that's, that's what startedmy mission.
(02:15):
His death was the catalyst for it.
And the next year, I
startedseeking out World War Two veterans.
How did you go about that?
Well, it's it's kind of difficult becausethey you know, they're not out and about.
They're under the radar.
Very under the radarand not a lot on social media.
So there's this wonderful program,national nonprofit called the Honor
Flight.
(02:35):
Basically, what the program doesis it flies veterans to D.C.
for free so they can see the memorialsthat were built for them.
It started serving World War Two veteransbecause the World War
two Memorial wasn't completed until 2005,I believe,
and it was completed after the VietnamMemorial, after the Korean Memorial.
So they they were kind of built backwards.
(02:56):
So these guys were alreadyin their eighties, and the opportunity
for them to see the memorial was
was probably impossiblefor a lot of a lot of those guys.
So it's created around that time
my dad took my grandfatheron on a trip on an honor flight.
And I flew out there and I surprised them.
So I documented that trip.
(03:17):
I have photos of it
and I didn't fully grasp what it meantuntil after he passed away.
And I was looking at the photos again
and then it really struck melike how impactful this was,
you know, on him and the other veteransand then also on me. So
when I started my my
mission, my project, I looked at the honorflight as a as a resource.
(03:38):
And it just so happened at the time
that I was starting my project,a hub in Los Angeles was starting up.
So one didn't exist untiluntil this very same year.
So I had reached out to the directorand they were
just getting started up as welland didn't have the funds or the resources
to bring additionalor unnecessary people aboard.
(03:58):
So I offered to pay my own way.
So I flew out to D.C.,followed this group around, documented
their their group's trip,and then donated the photos
to the families,the veterans and the organization.
And that was kind of the beginningof my relationship with them.
I've done 17 trips with thiswith that particular hub.
(04:18):
Wow. And they've flown, I think, overa thousand veterans back to D.C.
So I really heavily leaned on the HonorFlight Network for reaching out and
as a resourceto find World War Two veterans.
And then once you get into the community,it just kind of snowballs.
And so and so no somebody else.
And you get referredto other amazing individuals.
(04:41):
So is that the only tripthe honor flight takes is to D.C.?
I know you mentionedthat you'd been to Normandy.
Is that a different organization?
Yeah, it's a different organization.Honor flight.
I was created, and that'stheir main mission to get veterans to D.C.
There's there's other organizationsthat that do various
different trips around the world.
Some go to the World War Two Museumin New Orleans, forever young veterans.
(05:04):
That's another groupthat I volunteer with.
And they take veteransback to where they served.
So that was that was the Normandy trip.
I've also been to Germany and Belgiumwith them with with a group of World
War Two veterans and Pearl Harborfor the 80th anniversary there.
So all amazing experiencesand especially to be there
with with the veteranswho served and lived during that.
(05:25):
I can't even imagine for yougoing to all those different places
with all these menwho had pretty potent experiences.
Did you pick up on any of their feelings
or did you come away feeling differentabout those people that served or
different about those places or differentabout humanity than you had before?
(05:47):
I guess a short question would be,
was there something eyeopening about those experiences for you?
Well, my first time to Normandyand my first time to Pearl Harbor, we were
I was there for the anniversary.
So the ceremonies that took placetook place
on on the day,naturally, on our way to each ceremony.
(06:08):
And while we were there,I kind of did some self-reflection
and imagined at this time on this day,
75 years ago, 80 years ago,this was this was happening in this place.
So it's it's a little toughto comprehend the chaos and the brutality
that was taking placein such a peaceful and serene space today.
(06:30):
But just trying to to imagine like,you know, at this time, you know,
thousands of troopsare invading the shoreline.
And I'm just trying to imagine the chaosand putting myself in the shoes
of the soldiers that were there,which I can never, never do.
But just to havea little bit of perspective
(06:52):
and a few of the veteransthat I returned with, especially one
gentleman jack up inwho is who is in the book,
he he served as a medic on OmahaBeach on D-Day,
and he had never been backfor until 75 years.
He he returnedand he struggled with PTSD his whole life.
He openly talks about his battlewith alcoholism and the struggles
(07:15):
that he had overcome.
And he ended up writing a book
himself, expressing his experiencesand how he overcame.
But returning to Omaha Beach with him,he was very emotional for him.
My job was to documentthe trip and to capture images.
So there's also kind of a delicate balanceto wanting to give him his time
(07:37):
and his space, but to also capture thesethese moments that that are impactful.
So so there's no forcedsharing of information, of course,
because these could be for lots of people,very private moments
where they're experiencing somethingthat they don't even want to share.
And something I wouldn'teven be able to comprehend what what
they're going through. So, yeah.
(07:58):
But there is something to that.
And and it is, as you say,you can't as a person
outside of what was goingon, you can't ever really experience
what was going on,what sort of terror or fright or
those thingsthat must have been happening.
But I even remember as a little girlgoing to a Civil War site, and it was,
as you say, this very peaceful,beautiful field with trees.
(08:21):
And you could hear the breeze blowing.
But yet knowing what had happenedthere created a huge impact.
And it was valuable for me to feel that.
They seemed to choose the mostbeautiful places to fight.
What's that about?
So of course, you met
with over a hundred veteransand you've put together this book.
(08:43):
You're still putting togethermore interviews.
Is that right?
Since COVID hit,
I kind of stopped with the interviewsand redirected my focus towards
documenting these various tripswith different organizations.
I see.
And because you are this fabulous photo,the photographer, it's not just
the stories of these great individuals,but you took some beautiful photos.
(09:06):
Yeah, that's. That's my grandfather.So he.
my gosh.
He's the reason for it all.
So this gentleman was bornin Philadelphia.
He was born in Philadelphia.
He was in the Army Air Corps,and he was stationed
in the Philippinesbefore Pearl Harbor was was even attacked.
So we had troops over therein the Philippines,
I believe, about four monthsafter Pearl Harbor was attacked.
(09:29):
Essentially our supply lines were cut offbecause of that.
The Navy fleet was decimated.
So our troops overthere weren't able to be resupplied
with rations and ammunition,
and they were basically on half rations
and had to continue,you know, rationing it out.
So they didn't run out.
I believe it was in April of 42.
(09:51):
The Japanese had
forced our troops back to the bitter endpeninsula
and essentially said, surrenderor we'll annihilate everybody.
General MacArthur,I believe he reluctantly surrendered.
Thousands of our troops
were captured by the Japaneseand forced on this death march.
And it's that it's been coined,
(10:12):
I believe it wasit was different for for each individual.
But up to seven, seven daysof just marching with no food, no water,
extreme heat, the slightest infraction,they would be tortured, killed, beheaded.
You know, some describe seeing troopsrun over by tanks
and the Filipino
(10:32):
citizens would try to throw foodat these guys to help them survive.
And if even if they went to the roadsideto get some water out of a puddle
that probably had was diseaseanyways, they they'd be killed.
So he survived that.
Unbelievable.
And a prisoner of war campfor the duration of the war
(10:52):
survived the hell shipshe was working 12 hours a day
in a coal mine being fednothing more than a small bowl of rice.
At one point he ended up in the zero ward,which was essentially where
they went to die.
And he told me he saw thisbottle of liquid on the ground.
He had no idea what it was,but he thought it would end his life.
(11:13):
And in turn, it ended up cleaning him outand healing him back to health
and that's kind ofwhat got him through the rest of the war.
But amazing.
His story is very, very interestingbecause after the war, he returned home,
he regained health and he starteda jewelry business and eventually
moved out to Beverly Hills, opened upa shop there and became a jeweler.
(11:37):
And Elvis was one of hishis big go to customers.
And he designed numerous pieces for him,the iconic TCB
with the lightning boltthat was Solomon's design. So.
And TCB means. Taking care of business.
Yeah. Yeah.
But he Solomon forgave his captors
(11:58):
and the tortureand beatings that he endured.
And did he talk about what it tookto forgive those captors?
From my recollection,it didn't take a lot for him, I think.
And I don't want toI don't want to misquote him either.
But I think he
he kind of understood that partlythey were doing what they were told.
They were doing their job, so to speak.
(12:19):
But I feel like a lot of that hateand animosity
that he had just kind of left once, oncehe returned home
and was able to find peace,he was a very, very loving man.
I mean, hehe felt like a grandfather to me after
after my grandfather had passed.
And so you became kind of close in a way.
Yeah.
We'd go down and I'd have lunch with himand I visited with him multiple times.
(12:39):
And. Well, I wonderif part of that forgiving has to do
with giving some amount of thought
to a just in a way,
being the luck of the drawcould be turned around where,
you know, you're holding people captiveand you're putting other people
in a horrific situation as a soldierand you're just doing
(13:00):
what you've been assigned to do,which has to create all sorts
of uncomfortable thoughts and feelingsin one's body and head and heart.
I imagine there's a strong internalconflict that, yeah, that people faced.
So many times you hear that veterans
don'teven want to talk about their experience,
(13:21):
I assume, and maybe it's not correctthat it's just because it's too painful,
just both in terms of the visualthat you might have to create in your head
and in terms of wrestling with your ownfeelings about what you did or didn't do.
Did anyone speak about that?
Probably not. If they chose not to speak,they're not going to speak about that.
Well, yeah, it's interesting.
(13:41):
And because that is it,that is like a common phrase,
you know,they don't really like to talk about it.
And I totally understand that.
And I can't speakfrom personal experience,
but I imagine that that if you've beenthrough something traumatic,
you'renot just going to openly tell people.
But if you were to sit down likewe are now and kind of have a conversation
and you're asking questionsthat that may allow them to open up
(14:05):
and speak about those things,
I think there's opportunity thererather than then then
just kind of waiting for somebodyto share that information with you.
So I suppose tothere'd be some concern about what
how what you're sayingis affecting the person that's hearing it.
I agree with that.
And and I think a lot of the timesthe veterans are trying to protect
their family from from hearing that,because you do hear from family
(14:29):
or I have heard from familya lot that, they never talked about this.
You know, I learned a lotfrom the interview that you did with them.
But of all thethe veterans that I approached,
I think only one saidthey didn't want to speak about it.
Another one denied me an interviewbecause he didn't feel worthy,
that he belonged among
the others because he didn't feel likehis contribution was significant enough.
(14:52):
But after, you know, after sitting downand face to face,
I spoke to over 100 World War Two vets
and they all shared to varying degrees.
Some weren't as open.
Some would speak for 5 hourswithout me having to ask a question.
Amazing.
And some of their memories were just likelike it had happened yesterday. So.
And were they sharing like the day
(15:14):
to day storiesor those stories that were more monumental
or were they sharing some amountof feeling about the experiences?
What they would share mostly would be,yeah, the actual events that took place.
And I would try to ask like, how are you?
Like, how did that make you feel?
And I don't think there was a lot of depthto the response.
(15:35):
A lot of the times, Yeah.
I mean, I also feel like a lot of timesit was kind of a silly question.
It's like, what did it feellike to be getting shot at?
And so I think it's pretty obviouswhat that feeling was.
Fear and looking back, these peoplelooking back at their experiences,
what would it well up in themor what did they think about
how was life different for them?
(15:56):
Had they not experienced that?
I mean, they wouldn't knowbecause they did experience that.
But as I mentioned to you before,I I'm so curious
to know if that kind of
all in horrific thing makesyou think about your life differently.
Like here, I thought I was goingto do this simple thing and now I see
how fragile we are as humanity.
(16:19):
Now what do Iwhat do I do with this information I have?
Yeah, I mean, a few of the gentlementhat I spoke with,
they they entered serviceas a means to help their family.
I mean, remember, our countrywas in the midst of the Great Depression
at the time.
And so a lot of thesethese guys grew up with nothing
and their families had nothing.
And they were getting paid50 bucks a month, 50 bucks a week.
(16:44):
Some like not a lot of money.
And that was enough to helpsend money home to their family.
Yeah.
So there was a dutyand there was. A duty in that.
And one of the one of the gentlemenI spoke with, he was a paratrooper,
jumped into Normandy on D-Day.
And he was 16 when when he enlisted,he took his brother's
birth certificate and lied about his agebecause he was too young at the time.
(17:05):
But I think paratroopers were offeredan additional $50 a month as hazard pay.
So that wasthat was the incentive for him.
They didn't they weren't reallyI can't speak for everybody.
But in his circle,he wasn't looking at the dangers.
He wasn't looking at the repercussionsof his decisions.
I mean, as a 16 year old.One of the joys of being 16.
Yeah. You don't you don't reallyhave have that perspective.
(17:27):
And he was looking to betterhis the life of his family.
So so I know for
my favorite
veteran Bernard his experience in the war
was such that he did createa different path for himself.
But first he decided he would be a doctor,and then he said,
(17:48):
Wait a minute, I can't just be a doctor.
I have to be a doctor of the heartand the mind.
And maybe that wayI can get to individuals
who can.
Then get to other individuals,
and we can create a placewhere we think about peace first.
I think through work
such as yours,where we bring to the forefront
(18:10):
these people that servedand we support them
and we hear their messagesand really take it to heart.
I'm grateful to youfor bringing this to us,
and obviously we're all gratefulto these people who served.
Now, I justI just want to share the information.
That's that's my that's my mission.
That's my goal is to make sure that,
you know, their dutyand sacrifice is not forgotten.
(18:32):
And it gave me a lot of perspective
and appreciation for the life that I live.
And, you know, if I'm having a bad day,it's it's to.
Put it into a different sortof perspective.
So you mentioned that some of these people
would speak to you for hoursat a time and others just a few minutes.
Was there any common thread,
(18:53):
anything that they all mentioned
or a group of them mentionedabout their experience?
Probably the most common thread was therewas like, there's a clear enemy there.
They knew.They knew what they were fighting for.
They knew.
I don't think there was much conflict inmost of them as to what the mission was.
That's interesting.
I think a lot of us wonder about that.
(19:14):
Do these people knowwhat they're getting into?
Yeah, I think I thinkcompared to other conflicts, you know,
Vietnam is also likeanother polarizing war.
You know, there's a lot of controversysurrounding that one.
And it's just the reception when the waris it ended, you know, in World
War Two and there was a giant celebrationand they were welcomed.
(19:37):
You know, they were welcomedhome and Vietnam vets weren't.
And they were treated very poorly.
And you see that same feeling and emotionin D.C.
at the
at the memorials like the World War twomemorials is a very celebratory space.
And the Vietnam Memorialis very overwhelming.
And it is somber, very dark.
So I don't know if that's intentional
(19:59):
or if it's just a result ofof what they were.
But yeah, I think there was a very clear,clear enemy and clear mission at hand
when a lot of them when asked,would you do it again,
they all say in a heartbeat.
My father is a Vietnam
vet and all that you're sharing.
I can remember those experiences, himcoming home to sort of very lackluster
(20:22):
reception and he too would not talkabout his experience.
And there was not a little windowfor me to open
to begin to knowwhat that was like for him.
Just totally shut down.
Anyway, he's he's passed on and I'mnot able to get that information from him.
So in this book, too,there are some women.
(20:44):
There are some amazing women in there.
That is quite something back inWorld War two.
So what sort of positions dida couple of those women have?
One of them was an army nurse,and she was stationed
just outside the Battle of the Bulge,which was like the deadliest
battle, I think, in in history,definitely of World War Two.
(21:06):
Another one was a typist.
And I believe she stayed stateside.
And then another one, Yvonne Carson.
She she actually grew up in Belgiumand her family had to flee.
She's Jewish descentand her family had to flee
Belgium when she was, I believe, 11 or 12.
And they were on footand treacherous escape.
(21:26):
I believe they made their way to Spain.
And she had a brotherwho who didn't stick with them
and was kind of tricked by somebodysaying that they could help him get out.
So I believe herher parents and her sister ended up
making it off the continent.
I believe they went to Jamaica first.They traveled a bunch of different places.
(21:46):
But And were they looking for a placewhere they would be well-received
or a place where they felt likethey could earn a living?
From what I understoodjust yeah, where they would be safe
getting out of Europe entirely.
It was mission number one.Yes. The duration of the war.
She ended up workinglike decoding and encoding messages.
But fast forward to the end of the war.
They returned back to Europeand found out that her brother had been
(22:10):
held in a concentrationcamp was eventually killed
and she had 50 of her family members
had all been lostin the extermination camps,
so almost their entire familywas was just annihilated.
And yeah, just unbelievable.
So did she speak about what that felt like
(22:30):
for herto have not been one of those 50 people?
I mean, that's something to contendwith. Why?
Why me? Why am I still here now?
Like survivor's guilt?
To a degree, yeah, not to my recollection.
She has a book as well,
which is kind of greatthat a lot of a lot of these veterans
didn'tput their testimony into into a book.
And, you know, her her pages in hereonly touches on a small part of it.
(22:54):
But but yeah,
that was probably one of my thirdor fourth interview that I had done.
And it must've just really madeyou want to keep going.
Yeah, it's it's tough to comprehend.
It really is.
This book is available on your website.
It is? Yes.
The website is Pictures for Heroes.
Dot org Pictures for Heroes, dot org.
(23:17):
And the book is WorldWar Two Heroes, right?
Yeah.
And all the imagery and biographiesare on the website as well.
So you can previewpretty much all the book on there.
And even so, then if we say
we're interested in that,the woman from Belgium, I think it was
(23:37):
and you saw it in Google her name,you might even find her book.
Definitely. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I believe that's available on Amazonand should be easy to find.
I see.
But yours is easiest to find on your website.
It is.
Well, thank you for sharing that.
And just to kind of go back to Dr.
Bail for a moment,I'm so pleased that he was able
(23:58):
to share his experience with youand share his experience in the film
that was sort of documenting his life andwith the goal of promoting his theories.
So again, he came out of this World
War Two experience as a Jew,
having survivedall of the sort of treacherous events
(24:21):
that he went through and was ableto share his story with you, with us.
And I am so gratefulthat he was able to do that.
So again, thanks for promoting this for us
and for sharing all of these storiesand keep it going.
Now, of course,I mean, it's an honor to have met Dr.
(24:41):
Bail and all the other veteransthat I have.
And yeah, like I say, my missionis just to get the information out there,
make sure that people can read about itand appreciate what people have done
to ensure that we have a safeand free country that we live in. Yes.
Yeah.
So thank you and thank you allfor listening to this special podcast
(25:03):
with Zack.
Please come back again soonand we'll have something new and different
to share before now.
Hi, I'mCynthia Marks, and I head up the Holistic
Psychoanalysis Foundationestablished by my late husband, Dr.
Bernard Bail.
Welcome to And now, love.
Zach Coco is with us today.
He is a professional photographerby trade.
In fact,he's even taken photos in this studio.
(00:27):
We didn't know that until today.
Zach recently completed a booktitled World War Two Heroes.
It is a precious compilationof the stories
of many World War Two veterans.
Some time ago, Zachrealized that the information these vets
have, their stories and their insights
(00:47):
should not disappear with their passings.
Zach and I know each otherbecause he came to our home
and interviewed BernardBernard's World War Two.
Experience changed the course of his life,and I am pleased
that Zach was able to learn of itand put it in writing for us.
Thank you for being here, Zach.
This is great.Yeah, Thank you for having me.
(01:09):
Of course.
It's a pleasure.
And what you've done is terrific.
And the first thing I want to ask is
how did you come to decidethat you ought to do this?
Well, my grandfather was a World WarTwo veteran, and he served in the Navy.
And he was my hero growing up.
I always looked up to him.
He instilled a lot of a lotof moral values that I have today.
(01:29):
And I always wanted to sit downand interview him
and kind of learn about his servicehistory.
I knew little tidbits hereand there that my dad had kind of told me,
but I moved away from from homewhen I was 18
and I'd make it homemaybe once a year, you know, after that.
And the time never seemed right,or I just always felt like I had
(01:52):
the opportunityand it would always be there.
But more time in the future. Always.
Always, always push it down the road.
But yeah, yeah.
He got, he got sick and he, he, he died.
And that kind of litlit the bulb in my head.
And I realized this whole generationwas kind of leaving us rather quickly.
And that's, that's what startedmy mission.
(02:15):
His death was the catalyst for it.
And the next year, I
startedseeking out World War Two veterans.
How did you go about that?
Well, it's it's kind of difficult becausethey you know, they're not out and about.
They're under the radar.
Very under the radarand not a lot on social media.
So there's this wonderful program,national nonprofit called the Honor
Flight.
(02:35):
Basically, what the program doesis it flies veterans to D.C.
for free so they can see the memorialsthat were built for them.
It started serving World War Two veteransbecause the World War
two Memorial wasn't completed until 2005,I believe,
and it was completed after the VietnamMemorial, after the Korean Memorial.
So they they were kind of built backwards.
(02:56):
So these guys were alreadyin their eighties, and the opportunity
for them to see the memorial was
was probably impossiblefor a lot of a lot of those guys.
So it's created around that time
my dad took my grandfatheron on a trip on an honor flight.
And I flew out there and I surprised them.
So I documented that trip.
(03:17):
I have photos of it
and I didn't fully grasp what it meantuntil after he passed away.
And I was looking at the photos again
and then it really struck melike how impactful this was,
you know, on him and the other veteransand then also on me. So
when I started my my
mission, my project, I looked at the honorflight as a as a resource.
(03:38):
And it just so happened at the time
that I was starting my project,a hub in Los Angeles was starting up.
So one didn't exist untiluntil this very same year.
So I had reached out to the directorand they were
just getting started up as welland didn't have the funds or the resources
to bring additionalor unnecessary people aboard.
(03:58):
So I offered to pay my own way.
So I flew out to D.C.,followed this group around, documented
their their group's trip,and then donated the photos
to the families,the veterans and the organization.
And that was kind of the beginningof my relationship with them.
I've done 17 trips with thiswith that particular hub.
(04:18):
Wow. And they've flown, I think, overa thousand veterans back to D.C.
So I really heavily leaned on the HonorFlight Network for reaching out and
as a resourceto find World War Two veterans.
And then once you get into the community,it just kind of snowballs.
And so and so no somebody else.
And you get referredto other amazing individuals.
(04:41):
So is that the only tripthe honor flight takes is to D.C.?
I know you mentionedthat you'd been to Normandy.
Is that a different organization?
Yeah, it's a different organization.Honor flight.
I was created, and that'stheir main mission to get veterans to D.C.
There's there's other organizationsthat that do various
different trips around the world.
Some go to the World War Two Museumin New Orleans, forever young veterans.
(05:04):
That's another groupthat I volunteer with.
And they take veteransback to where they served.
So that was that was the Normandy trip.
I've also been to Germany and Belgiumwith them with with a group of World
War Two veterans and Pearl Harborfor the 80th anniversary there.
So all amazing experiencesand especially to be there
with with the veteranswho served and lived during that.
(05:25):
I can't even imagine for yougoing to all those different places
with all these menwho had pretty potent experiences.
Did you pick up on any of their feelings
or did you come away feeling differentabout those people that served or
different about those places or differentabout humanity than you had before?
(05:47):
I guess a short question would be,
was there something eyeopening about those experiences for you?
Well, my first time to Normandyand my first time to Pearl Harbor, we were
I was there for the anniversary.
So the ceremonies that took placetook place
on on the day,naturally, on our way to each ceremony.
(06:08):
And while we were there,I kind of did some self-reflection
and imagined at this time on this day,
75 years ago, 80 years ago,this was this was happening in this place.
So it's it's a little toughto comprehend the chaos and the brutality
that was taking placein such a peaceful and serene space today.
(06:30):
But just trying to to imagine like,you know, at this time, you know,
thousands of troopsare invading the shoreline.
And I'm just trying to imagine the chaosand putting myself in the shoes
of the soldiers that were there,which I can never, never do.
But just to havea little bit of perspective
(06:52):
and a few of the veteransthat I returned with, especially one
gentleman jack up inwho is who is in the book,
he he served as a medic on OmahaBeach on D-Day,
and he had never been backfor until 75 years.
He he returnedand he struggled with PTSD his whole life.
He openly talks about his battlewith alcoholism and the struggles
(07:15):
that he had overcome.
And he ended up writing a book
himself, expressing his experiencesand how he overcame.
But returning to Omaha Beach with him,he was very emotional for him.
My job was to documentthe trip and to capture images.
So there's also kind of a delicate balanceto wanting to give him his time
(07:37):
and his space, but to also capture thesethese moments that that are impactful.
So so there's no forcedsharing of information, of course,
because these could be for lots of people,very private moments
where they're experiencing somethingthat they don't even want to share.
And something I wouldn'teven be able to comprehend what what
they're going through. So, yeah.
(07:58):
But there is something to that.
And and it is, as you say,you can't as a person
outside of what was goingon, you can't ever really experience
what was going on,what sort of terror or fright or
those thingsthat must have been happening.
But I even remember as a little girlgoing to a Civil War site, and it was,
as you say, this very peaceful,beautiful field with trees.
(08:21):
And you could hear the breeze blowing.
But yet knowing what had happenedthere created a huge impact.
And it was valuable for me to feel that.
They seemed to choose the mostbeautiful places to fight.
What's that about?
So of course, you met
with over a hundred veteransand you've put together this book.
(08:43):
You're still putting togethermore interviews.
Is that right?
Since COVID hit,
I kind of stopped with the interviewsand redirected my focus towards
documenting these various tripswith different organizations.
I see.
And because you are this fabulous photo,the photographer, it's not just
the stories of these great individuals,but you took some beautiful photos.
(09:06):
Yeah, that's. That's my grandfather.So he.
my gosh.
He's the reason for it all.
So this gentleman was bornin Philadelphia.
He was born in Philadelphia.
He was in the Army Air Corps,and he was stationed
in the Philippinesbefore Pearl Harbor was was even attacked.
So we had troops over therein the Philippines,
I believe, about four monthsafter Pearl Harbor was attacked.
(09:29):
Essentially our supply lines were cut offbecause of that.
The Navy fleet was decimated.
So our troops overthere weren't able to be resupplied
with rations and ammunition,
and they were basically on half rations
and had to continue,you know, rationing it out.
So they didn't run out.
I believe it was in April of 42.
(09:51):
The Japanese had
forced our troops back to the bitter endpeninsula
and essentially said, surrenderor we'll annihilate everybody.
General MacArthur,I believe he reluctantly surrendered.
Thousands of our troops
were captured by the Japaneseand forced on this death march.
And it's that it's been coined,
(10:12):
I believe it wasit was different for for each individual.
But up to seven, seven daysof just marching with no food, no water,
extreme heat, the slightest infraction,they would be tortured, killed, beheaded.
You know, some describe seeing troopsrun over by tanks
and the Filipino
(10:32):
citizens would try to throw foodat these guys to help them survive.
And if even if they went to the roadsideto get some water out of a puddle
that probably had was diseaseanyways, they they'd be killed.
So he survived that.
Unbelievable.
And a prisoner of war campfor the duration of the war
(10:52):
survived the hell shipshe was working 12 hours a day
in a coal mine being fednothing more than a small bowl of rice.
At one point he ended up in the zero ward,which was essentially where
they went to die.
And he told me he saw thisbottle of liquid on the ground.
He had no idea what it was,but he thought it would end his life.
(11:13):
And in turn, it ended up cleaning him outand healing him back to health
and that's kind ofwhat got him through the rest of the war.
But amazing.
His story is very, very interestingbecause after the war, he returned home,
he regained health and he starteda jewelry business and eventually
moved out to Beverly Hills, opened upa shop there and became a jeweler.
(11:37):
And Elvis was one of hishis big go to customers.
And he designed numerous pieces for him,the iconic TCB
with the lightning boltthat was Solomon's design. So.
And TCB means. Taking care of business.
Yeah. Yeah.
But he Solomon forgave his captors
(11:58):
and the tortureand beatings that he endured.
And did he talk about what it tookto forgive those captors?
From my recollection,it didn't take a lot for him, I think.
And I don't want toI don't want to misquote him either.
But I think he
he kind of understood that partlythey were doing what they were told.
They were doing their job, so to speak.
(12:19):
But I feel like a lot of that hateand animosity
that he had just kind of left once, oncehe returned home
and was able to find peace,he was a very, very loving man.
I mean, hehe felt like a grandfather to me after
after my grandfather had passed.
And so you became kind of close in a way.
Yeah.
We'd go down and I'd have lunch with himand I visited with him multiple times.
(12:39):
And. Well, I wonderif part of that forgiving has to do
with giving some amount of thought
to a just in a way,
being the luck of the drawcould be turned around where,
you know, you're holding people captiveand you're putting other people
in a horrific situation as a soldierand you're just doing
(13:00):
what you've been assigned to do,which has to create all sorts
of uncomfortable thoughts and feelingsin one's body and head and heart.
I imagine there's a strong internalconflict that, yeah, that people faced.
So many times you hear that veterans
don'teven want to talk about their experience,
(13:21):
I assume, and maybe it's not correctthat it's just because it's too painful,
just both in terms of the visualthat you might have to create in your head
and in terms of wrestling with your ownfeelings about what you did or didn't do.
Did anyone speak about that?
Probably not. If they chose not to speak,they're not going to speak about that.
Well, yeah, it's interesting.
(13:41):
And because that is it,that is like a common phrase,
you know,they don't really like to talk about it.
And I totally understand that.
And I can't speakfrom personal experience,
but I imagine that that if you've beenthrough something traumatic,
you'renot just going to openly tell people.
But if you were to sit down likewe are now and kind of have a conversation
and you're asking questionsthat that may allow them to open up
(14:05):
and speak about those things,
I think there's opportunity thererather than then then
just kind of waiting for somebodyto share that information with you.
So I suppose tothere'd be some concern about what
how what you're sayingis affecting the person that's hearing it.
I agree with that.
And and I think a lot of the timesthe veterans are trying to protect
their family from from hearing that,because you do hear from family
(14:29):
or I have heard from familya lot that, they never talked about this.
You know, I learned a lotfrom the interview that you did with them.
But of all thethe veterans that I approached,
I think only one saidthey didn't want to speak about it.
Another one denied me an interviewbecause he didn't feel worthy,
that he belonged among
the others because he didn't feel likehis contribution was significant enough.
(14:52):
But after, you know, after sitting downand face to face,
I spoke to over 100 World War Two vets
and they all shared to varying degrees.
Some weren't as open.
Some would speak for 5 hourswithout me having to ask a question.
Amazing.
And some of their memories were just likelike it had happened yesterday. So.
And were they sharing like the day
(15:14):
to day storiesor those stories that were more monumental
or were they sharing some amountof feeling about the experiences?
What they would share mostly would be,yeah, the actual events that took place.
And I would try to ask like, how are you?
Like, how did that make you feel?
And I don't think there was a lot of depthto the response.
(15:35):
A lot of the times, Yeah.
I mean, I also feel like a lot of timesit was kind of a silly question.
It's like, what did it feellike to be getting shot at?
And so I think it's pretty obviouswhat that feeling was.
Fear and looking back, these peoplelooking back at their experiences,
what would it well up in themor what did they think about
how was life different for them?
(15:56):
Had they not experienced that?
I mean, they wouldn't knowbecause they did experience that.
But as I mentioned to you before,I I'm so curious
to know if that kind of
all in horrific thing makesyou think about your life differently.
Like here, I thought I was goingto do this simple thing and now I see
how fragile we are as humanity.
(16:19):
Now what do Iwhat do I do with this information I have?
Yeah, I mean, a few of the gentlementhat I spoke with,
they they entered serviceas a means to help their family.
I mean, remember, our countrywas in the midst of the Great Depression
at the time.
And so a lot of thesethese guys grew up with nothing
and their families had nothing.
And they were getting paid50 bucks a month, 50 bucks a week.
(16:44):
Some like not a lot of money.
And that was enough to helpsend money home to their family.
Yeah.
So there was a dutyand there was. A duty in that.
And one of the one of the gentlemenI spoke with, he was a paratrooper,
jumped into Normandy on D-Day.
And he was 16 when when he enlisted,he took his brother's
birth certificate and lied about his agebecause he was too young at the time.
(17:05):
But I think paratroopers were offeredan additional $50 a month as hazard pay.
So that wasthat was the incentive for him.
They didn't they weren't reallyI can't speak for everybody.
But in his circle,he wasn't looking at the dangers.
He wasn't looking at the repercussionsof his decisions.
I mean, as a 16 year old.One of the joys of being 16.
Yeah. You don't you don't reallyhave have that perspective.
(17:27):
And he was looking to betterhis the life of his family.
So so I know for
my favorite
veteran Bernard his experience in the war
was such that he did createa different path for himself.
But first he decided he would be a doctor,and then he said,
(17:48):
Wait a minute, I can't just be a doctor.
I have to be a doctor of the heartand the mind.
And maybe that wayI can get to individuals
who can.
Then get to other individuals,
and we can create a placewhere we think about peace first.
I think through work
such as yours,where we bring to the forefront
(18:10):
these people that servedand we support them
and we hear their messagesand really take it to heart.
I'm grateful to youfor bringing this to us,
and obviously we're all gratefulto these people who served.
Now, I justI just want to share the information.
That's that's my that's my mission.
That's my goal is to make sure that,
you know, their dutyand sacrifice is not forgotten.
(18:32):
And it gave me a lot of perspective
and appreciation for the life that I live.
And, you know, if I'm having a bad day,it's it's to.
Put it into a different sortof perspective.
So you mentioned that some of these people
would speak to you for hoursat a time and others just a few minutes.
Was there any common thread,
(18:53):
anything that they all mentioned
or a group of them mentionedabout their experience?
Probably the most common thread was therewas like, there's a clear enemy there.
They knew.They knew what they were fighting for.
They knew.
I don't think there was much conflict inmost of them as to what the mission was.
That's interesting.
I think a lot of us wonder about that.
(19:14):
Do these people knowwhat they're getting into?
Yeah, I think I thinkcompared to other conflicts, you know,
Vietnam is also likeanother polarizing war.
You know, there's a lot of controversysurrounding that one.
And it's just the reception when the waris it ended, you know, in World
War Two and there was a giant celebrationand they were welcomed.
(19:37):
You know, they were welcomedhome and Vietnam vets weren't.
And they were treated very poorly.
And you see that same feeling and emotionin D.C.
at the
at the memorials like the World War twomemorials is a very celebratory space.
And the Vietnam Memorialis very overwhelming.
And it is somber, very dark.
So I don't know if that's intentional
(19:59):
or if it's just a result ofof what they were.
But yeah, I think there was a very clear,clear enemy and clear mission at hand
when a lot of them when asked,would you do it again,
they all say in a heartbeat.
My father is a Vietnam
vet and all that you're sharing.
I can remember those experiences, himcoming home to sort of very lackluster
(20:22):
reception and he too would not talkabout his experience.
And there was not a little windowfor me to open
to begin to knowwhat that was like for him.
Just totally shut down.
Anyway, he's he's passed on and I'mnot able to get that information from him.
So in this book, too,there are some women.
(20:44):
There are some amazing women in there.
That is quite something back inWorld War two.
So what sort of positions dida couple of those women have?
One of them was an army nurse,and she was stationed
just outside the Battle of the Bulge,which was like the deadliest
battle, I think, in in history,definitely of World War Two.
(21:06):
Another one was a typist.
And I believe she stayed stateside.
And then another one, Yvonne Carson.
She she actually grew up in Belgiumand her family had to flee.
She's Jewish descentand her family had to flee
Belgium when she was, I believe, 11 or 12.
And they were on footand treacherous escape.
(21:26):
I believe they made their way to Spain.
And she had a brotherwho who didn't stick with them
and was kind of tricked by somebodysaying that they could help him get out.
So I believe herher parents and her sister ended up
making it off the continent.
I believe they went to Jamaica first.They traveled a bunch of different places.
(21:46):
But And were they looking for a placewhere they would be well-received
or a place where they felt likethey could earn a living?
From what I understoodjust yeah, where they would be safe
getting out of Europe entirely.
It was mission number one.Yes. The duration of the war.
She ended up workinglike decoding and encoding messages.
But fast forward to the end of the war.
They returned back to Europeand found out that her brother had been
(22:10):
held in a concentrationcamp was eventually killed
and she had 50 of her family members
had all been lostin the extermination camps,
so almost their entire familywas was just annihilated.
And yeah, just unbelievable.
So did she speak about what that felt like
(22:30):
for herto have not been one of those 50 people?
I mean, that's something to contendwith. Why?
Why me? Why am I still here now?
Like survivor's guilt?
To a degree, yeah, not to my recollection.
She has a book as well,
which is kind of greatthat a lot of a lot of these veterans
didn'tput their testimony into into a book.
And, you know, her her pages in hereonly touches on a small part of it.
(22:54):
But but yeah,
that was probably one of my thirdor fourth interview that I had done.
And it must've just really madeyou want to keep going.
Yeah, it's it's tough to comprehend.
It really is.
This book is available on your website.
It is? Yes.
The website is Pictures for Heroes.
Dot org Pictures for Heroes, dot org.
(23:17):
And the book is WorldWar Two Heroes, right?
Yeah.
And all the imagery and biographiesare on the website as well.
So you can previewpretty much all the book on there.
And even so, then if we say
we're interested in that,the woman from Belgium, I think it was
(23:37):
and you saw it in Google her name,you might even find her book.
Definitely. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I believe that's available on Amazonand should be easy to find.
I see.
But yours is easiest to find on your website.
It is.
Well, thank you for sharing that.
And just to kind of go back to Dr.
Bail for a moment,I'm so pleased that he was able
(23:58):
to share his experience with youand share his experience in the film
that was sort of documenting his life andwith the goal of promoting his theories.
So again, he came out of this World
War Two experience as a Jew,
having survivedall of the sort of treacherous events
(24:21):
that he went through and was ableto share his story with you, with us.
And I am so gratefulthat he was able to do that.
So again, thanks for promoting this for us
and for sharing all of these storiesand keep it going.
Now, of course,I mean, it's an honor to have met Dr.
(24:41):
Bail and all the other veteransthat I have.
And yeah, like I say, my missionis just to get the information out there,
make sure that people can read about itand appreciate what people have done
to ensure that we have a safeand free country that we live in. Yes.
Yeah.
So thank you and thank you allfor listening to this special podcast
(25:03):
with Zack.
Please come back again soonand we'll have something new and different
to share before now.
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Intentionally Disturbing
Join me on this podcast as I navigate the murky waters of human behavior, current events, and personal anecdotes through in-depth interviews with incredible people—all served with a generous helping of sarcasm and satire. After years as a forensic and clinical psychologist, I offer a unique interview style and a low tolerance for bullshit, quickly steering conversations toward depth and darkness. I honor the seriousness while also appreciating wit. I’m your guide through the twisted labyrinth of the human psyche, armed with dark humor and biting wit.