July 11, 2024 • 31 mins
In this bonus episode, Dr. Loren discusses the significance of dreams in understanding one's unconscious mind and emotional history. The conversation focuses on a debrief of a case study with patient Jessica and her dreams, highlighting how her dream interpretations reveal deep-seated emotional truths and imprints from her past. Dr. Loren reflects on the process of interpreting dreams and how it requires collaboration and feedback from the patient to ensure the interpretations resonate with their feelings. The discussion emphasizes the importance of recognizing and working through unconscious imprints to achieve personal growth and emotional clarity. Dr. Loren also touches upon the societal implications of these unconscious imprints, particularly the pervasive issue of women feeling like "zeros" and how this affects their self-worth and opportunities. The episode concludes with a hopeful message about the potential for individuals to uncover and address their unconscious imprints, leading to a more authentic and fulfilling life.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:04):
So I have some questions
about the first two dreamsthat you shared.
Jessica's dreams.
I can't remember them word for word.
So I'm going to read from this paper.
So what you've presented in thosefirst two dreams, it
truly took my breath awayjust how clear it was.
Now, I know in doing the workit's not so clear.
(00:25):
But your presentation made it clear that
you allowed us to seethat there are steps that we take
and there's movementthat takes place over time.
But you look at it and you think, Wow,how could I not see that?
It seems to that Jessica really had to bein touch with her feelings.
Do patients usually get to thispretty easily, or was she unusual in that?
(00:50):
I think Jessica was unusual in
that she for somebodywho was not supposed to talk
about her feelings,she wasn't fully a zero.
She was there.
And she mayhave had to put on a lot of that.
But there was a core person therethat had feelings about things
and they would pop up in the dreams
(01:12):
and she could talk about them openly,at least in session.
So that was nice.
She didn't start feeling I mean,maybe she wouldn't even have come in
if she really didn't feelshe wasn't allowed to talk at all.
So somewhere there was a part of this,I can talk and at least I can talk to you.
But do people come inand they're just upset about something
(01:32):
depressed or confusedand they don't even know what to say.
All the time.
And sometimes they know what to sayin the beginning,
and then they're not so surewhat to say a little after that.
Because what if they've talkedabout all of that stuff?
Everything you can imagine about peoplebeing comfortable, talking a lot,
not being in touch with feelings happens.
(01:53):
There is a certain self-selectinggroup, right?
There's a group of people who decideI will go to therapy.
Some people may not be geared that way.
It doesn't even occur to themthat's just reality or
some people feel it is so shameful
to need to talk to someone.
(02:14):
Many people view that as a weaknesssomehow.
You can't just pull yourself upand you're not.
So those people may or may not be ableto come in and talk to someone.
Hopefully, over time people will get moreused to the idea that we need this
and we have these sides of usand there's a whole world in there.
And it's actually a strength.
(02:35):
And it's a strength.It's really a strength.
I'm glad you said that. Yeah.
To be able to exploreyourself is a strength.
This I always wondered about too.
So what is it about an interpretationthat helps a patient
really get it as a feeling?
And it's almost like
I want to put blinders on and think, Wait,wait, wait, wait.
(02:56):
That struck a chord.
Is that what happens? Sometimes
the simple answer is sometimes yes,you will get a hit
and you can even seewhen you're talking to people,
you might say center ahead becausethey feel or they might start to cry.
Do you have to inquire?What does that mean to them?
Does it feel right?
And you want to see?
And sometimes people will say no.
(03:18):
Yeah, you know what?
I don't I don't think that's itor doesn't quite feel right.
And I said, okay, then.
I mean, I may be sold on it.
That doesn't mean it's right, you know?
And so I have to say.
All right, Are they just not feeling itfor whatever reason?
Am I really?
I've gone the wrong direction.
Let me rethink this.
Keep talking.
(03:39):
Tell me what doesn't feel right.
Okay. Tell me where it.
Where does it feel, then? What?
What arena do you think we're in?
If the person can say,
and I have to try to seeif I can come to it, sometimes I can't.
That's just the reality.
I would love to say
I can wrap up each session with youknow, a perfect interpretation.
It's not like that.
And so as I said, Well, all right,we'll pick it up the next time we meet.
(04:02):
Let me come back to it.
And we'll try to get it rightand tell you.
Okay.
I think I think yeah, that'skind of that's what I'm talking about.
So it's collaborative in that way.
You really have to havethe person's feedback.
And sometimes it is a lightning boltmoment or an epiphany and some dreams.
Are you just moved completelyAnd sometimes it's not.
(04:24):
And even when somebody might say to me,
I'm not sure I have to think about it,and sometimes it's
very transparent, I think,how could it be anything but this?
But okay,you think about it and let me know.
Let's see and we'll watch the next dream.
Don't stop dreaming.
Think about it.We can always come back to it.
Let your mind keep going.
Let me see what the next dream says.
(04:46):
Does it deepen it?
Does it say more about it?Does it say, yeah.
Here, let me elaborate a little bit.
You hit something.
Maybe you weren't perfect,but you hit it enough.
So you have to look at all of it.
If someone were to say to you, Yeah,that that's not it, you're like, okay.
And you can start to investigateother avenues.
But if that.
No, that's not it, is itthat will show up down the road somewhere.
(05:11):
It's going to show upand then you can figure out why didn't
the person feel itor feel comfortable with it.
And thisI don't think many of us do very well.
Is it similar to trusting your instinctsand not stepping on your instincts?
Yes. That in itself is. Tricky.
Because sometimesour instincts are so backwards
(05:34):
because they've been stepped on so much.
I see that they're all turned aroundand all over the place.
So people say, Well, trust your gut.
Yes, in the best of circumstancesyou might be able to trust your gut
if you can hear what it's saying.
But sometimes your guts offbecause you've got an imprint
that put your gut not on the right path,you know it's going south
(05:55):
and that's the North Star.
It's got the wrong star.
So we have to again, like everythingI'm looking at, all the information.
It's never my goalto force an interpretation on somebody
that doesn't do any good.
It's,you know, even if it makes sense to me,
if it doesn't make sense to the patient,then.
You're not going anywhere.
We're not going anywhere. Andand there's no point.
(06:17):
So let's figure outwhat doesn't feel right.
And sometimes you're just workingwith that piece, what didn't feel right.
And sometimes you have to figure out,
is that person allowed to feel understood?
Can they even relax enough
to let you understand them,even if you don't get the dream right?
(06:38):
Are you allowed to be working at it?
Has anybody ever worked hard, hardto understand what that person is saying,
even if you don't get it rightimmediately?
That's part of it, too.
And that's lovely.
What a nice space to be in insome of these interpretations
where your patient then feels itand knows that that's the right path.
(07:00):
Like for Jessica, she discoveredthat she wasn't allowed to have a voice.
And when she discovered that, thatmust have been shocking on some level,
I would think.
I don't know. Maybe not.
But it's certainly tragic to have livedall these years without a voice.
Do people generally,even though it's tragic or it hurts
or it makes a person cry,is it also a glimmer of hope? Yes.
(07:24):
Hopefully this gives people a lot of hope
to find outthat something has been happening
out of your consciousness,even if you had hints of it
to know what it is,while you may feel the sadness of it.
Absolutely. But now you know what it is.
Before you had no ideaand you still felt the sadness, I think
(07:46):
how hopeful to knowand know that one could work through it.
That, to me, is enormous hope.
So, yes,sometimes it's a blow, but better.
You know what's happening, then?
There's hope.
How great to not have to think of yourselfas a bad person or a flawed person
because you can't do this thing.
(08:07):
Whatever it is that this was an imprintyou were given
and you applied to yourself.
That's very importantbecause people will say, Well,
aren't you just taking responsibilityaway from the person?
The person has to be responsiblefor whatever it is?
No, what we're trying to do is say,here was how it felt emotionally.
(08:27):
These were the rulesthat were put in place.
This is what you felt you had to obey.
It is now your responsibilityto fix it, to change it if you want.
So you have all the responsibility.
Nobody'sgoing to come in and do anything for you.
You have to do all the work.
It's your responsibility,but you have to know where it originated.
(08:49):
And part of that is knowing your trueemotional story.
Here's what happened to me.
Unconsciously,the whole unconscious piece is huge
because people say, Well,this is what happened to me, okay.
But I also need to know unconsciously,what did that mean to your mind?
What happened as a result of all that?
(09:10):
Unconsciously,because the unconscious, seemingly silent
as it is, is not actuallywe don't know about it.
We're not in thinking, well, myunconscious just did something we're not.
But it is actually governing everything.
And well, it's giving usthese loud messages in our dreams.
If we choose to listen.Yeah. That's right.
(09:32):
So listening to you share these dreams,more than once, I felt a twinge of.
I can relate to that.
that I can relate to that.
And it put me in a place where I thought,
I want to look at my dreams more and see
if I can discover these thingsthat maybe they show up often,
(09:53):
or the things I have to think aboutthe things that I thought were a truth.
Maybe they aren't.
We spoke about this earlier, but onsome level we can do that for ourselves.
It's not the same as having you,but again, we can investigate our own
lives, right?
And think about what we're doingand what those around us are doing
(10:13):
to help us do what we're doing,whether we like it or not.
Yes, hopefully that's what people do.
Get curious,get curious, start examining it.
Look and see what you find in your dreams.
Yes, it's hard.
It is a big undertaking,but it's so worth it.
You get to know yourself.
Bails idea was Here'sa way of understanding who we are.
(10:37):
I found it this way.
I talk about it.
I found it incredibly helpful to use that.
Now, of course, you go into every session,I try not to sell.
It has to fit into Bails theory. Yeah.
I didn't cover everything, right?
So you have to be open and just listen.
But I'll tell you, it'sa really good place to start.
It gives you a way to organize things
(10:59):
and be thinkingthat takes you back to the beginning.
And the idea was,if you want to understand something,
go as far back as you can.
Go to the beginning.
Why start in the middle?
You're going to miss everything.
so much.
So this is go back to the beginning.
Well, where's the beginning? Backwith Mom and Dad.
Where did you start, Mom?
(11:20):
There is a large group of peoplewho don't know who their parents are.
They don't know,you know, for various reasons.
So that's important.That's very important.
We have to take that into consideration.
But okay, that doesn't meanmost of the time that means
you were raised by someone.
That person will lay downcertain expectations also.
(11:43):
So it's all in there,the unconscious records at all.
You're not going anywhere in your life
where you're not interactingwith the environment on this deep level.
We are right nowunconsciously communicating.
It's somewhere in there.
We are feeling each other.
For the longest time in my life, my fatherused to like, walk around in my head.
(12:04):
Whenever I made a decision.I heard his voice.
I saw his face.
Is this going to be a decisionthat he's going to like?
And that was so narrowing.
I mean, givenhe was a strong, smart person.
But through the course of,I'd say, thinking about my dreams
and feeling different thingsrelative to my dreams,
(12:26):
he's there and I hear himand I say, okay, stand down.
And that feels very good.
That's important, right?
Why do I have to please you?
Why? I wanted you to love me.
But I'm not a baby anymore.
I'm not a kid.
I don't need youto really approve of that, too.
Am I really so worriedthat I'm going to lose your love and die?
(12:49):
Now, what about this ideathat maybe I just do what I want?
What do I. Want?
That's novel.
What if I don't hear your voice?
What do I want?
And can I just do that?
Very liberating.
Jessica had the dream about theto Robbins,
and it was so full,even though it was really short.
(13:14):
Was it clear to youwhat your interpretations would be,
or was that from the beginninga matter of collaboration?
Both. I had a hunch.
I had a feeling of where she was going,
given everything she was saying,but I had to prove it.
I don't like to make an interpretationthat I can't support.
(13:35):
I try not to just say, Well,my feeling is this is it.
And it does seem that she kind ofcame to it through her free association.
It's like, this, this, this.
Wait a minute.
Then there's this. Right.
And and some of what wasn't in the sessionbecause I didn't do every single back
and forth isI try to ask questions that elicit enough
(13:55):
thinking on her part talkingso that I can be
listening to said, All right,is that the mother or is it her?
Who do I have here? Do I both?
I hear about Robin.
What's she like? Let me hear.
So I may have a hypothesis or a hunch,and then I have to set about proving it.
And then I have to say itand see what the responses.
(14:17):
And then I have to say, is my patientjust being nice because my patient
wants to please me and won't say,What is she talking about right.
There, ready to get out of there?They don't want to deal with it.
No, she.
Doesn't want me to talk either,so I better not say
I don't like that interpretation.
So you're listening for all of that?
When the patient finally feels
(14:38):
that interpretation deeply, that's it.
Does that just by virtue of that,does that release
some of the traumaor reduce the trash in the trash can?
Exactly. It reduces it. We've now got.
All right.
Here we go. We've got a category of trash.
We now can be aware of it.
(14:58):
It's not like thatclears the whole place out.
Then you've got to go in
and have all the dreams in each dreampulls out another piece of trash.
So it's work.
And so your load is lightenedand that feels good.
So why wouldn'tyou want to lighten that more?
Jessica's dream
about the passwordand the zero is so clear.
(15:21):
It too seems so simple.
I'm sure it wasn't. That wasn't as simple.
But listening to you talk about it,it's like, wow, it's just right there.
But I get thatif it wasn't in your collaboration,
her discovery of needing to be a zeroin order to survive
and then knowing that she was following inher mother's footsteps is awesome.
(15:43):
And that's such big news to Jessica.
I find this to be surprising and awesome.
Or was she sort of like,yeah, let's kind of.
I think that she had to work upto really understanding what that meant.
I think it sounded fine.
I think she got it.
I think she could see how her motherhad not been able to become
(16:06):
who she really wanted to be.
But I think to getthe full impact of that, that was not like
you say it once.
And she went, like that's wow,
No, no.
Took time.
And I guess it's a big thingto contend with.
Pretty frightening.
It's frightening.What does that mean for someone?
Yeah, What do you mean? I'm a zero?
I don't think she came in feelinglike a zero.
(16:27):
Right.
So this is a case that that'swhat she's carrying.
So she didn't feel like a complete zero.
But what that would meanis that she would assume she was capable.
She wanted to go do things.
She wanted these job.
She wanted to get itand couldn't understand
why they would sort of all disappear.
And she didn't understand
(16:49):
that she's carryingher mother's requirement to be a zero.
So every time she got closeto doing anything where she wasn't a zero,
the unconscious would somehowdo something.
It would communicate something,which is I'm not to have this.
So it would make you crazybecause you can't think of what happens.
(17:09):
Why don't I get this job?
If they tell me I'm good, I interview.
Well,everything seems like it's happening.
Then it falls apart.
And she didn't know that that pull to bea zero was going to be so impactful
when she herself didn'tnecessarily feel like a zero in her life.
There may have been somesome things that were hard in her life,
but I don't think she would have come insaying, I feel like I'm just a nothing.
(17:33):
Yeah.
In the first dream about Robin and Robin,Jessica found that she was sleeping.
She was not engaged in her truth.
As you said,she needed to be awake to be able to take
in the meaning of other imprints.
And it seems thatthis one in the second dream,
the one of being a zero, puts her
(17:56):
almost at the base of all her trauma.
Is that so?
Do we have an imprint
that's at the base of everythingand then other imprints on top of that?
Probably I say probably because
I don't think I've seen every single caseI want to be.
I want to leave some room.
Sure.
Yes, we have somethat are going to be more foundational.
(18:19):
It doesn't meanthe other pieces aren't there.
But it's so interesting.
I mean, sometimes you think you're workingand you got to say, okay, I think we got
say, boy, lo and behold,you might peel something else back.
And then yet which one is at the root?
We may not need to even argue about that.
You just have to know they're both there.
But one was keeping you awayfrom really knowing something,
(18:42):
and that's always fascinating.
So it's not sequential necessarily.
For example,
you said,
you know, Jessica discovered thatshe didn't have the right to have a voice.
And I thought, wow, that's that's big.
That's really big.
And then to find out that actuallyshe's a zero huge.
But so I understand there'syou don't have to try hard to get to
(19:03):
this one imprintthey're all affecting work.
With it all see what the patient wants.
What's nice is what you get to follow is
what does the patient's mindwant to know in that moment to grow?
Because that's the dream that comes.
I see. Yeah.
So you're following the dreambecause that sets the treatment.
(19:25):
It really says, Go here, go here now,go there now, go here now, Go back there.
Because I'm. I'm still wrestlingwith this.
Come back, Come back.
So you get to follow the patient's mind,which is much better than me saying,
here's what I thinkmy patient needs to know about next.
That's nice for me.
But that doesn't meanthat patient needs that.
(19:50):
So I'd much prefer I have to follow.
What does the patient's mind want to know?
And the information in the dream is
always leading you to your truth.
Or you might be dreaming somethingthat is more representative
of this internal saboteurlike you've been doing.
(20:13):
So well,I'm going to put your mind over here now.
Yes, that happens quite a lot. Each dream.
I don't assume allthis is some truth about your life.
I mean, I'm listening.
Maybe it is, maybe it isn't.
It may be a whole host of things, though.
Some of them have to do with somethingyou went to
and you may make a critique about itin a dream.
(20:36):
Okay.
Well, clearly,that was just important for the mind.
It wanted this. No.
Now you might have remembered that dreambecause it's a little less
shocking than maybe another dreamyou had that night.
You might start therebecause the mind that I can talk about.
Okay, then let's start there.
Let me start where you are.
And then maybe the next night.
(20:57):
then you have the other dream.It's variable
because it really just depends onwhat the person is allowed to know.
Wants to know, needs to know, andis allowed to know in any given moment.
And what you can see with an imprintand people
having a prohibition against oftenknowing what the emotional truth
(21:20):
in the family was, who was in love,who wasn't in love, who was cheating on
whom, who didn't really want to be there,who felt trapped, who was really a baby
looking for a mother or fatherand not ready to be a parent.
All of it.
Parents don't want all the dirty laundryhung out there for all the kids to know.
So the unconscious goes to work and says.
(21:45):
Blocks it all off.
So we have to see where are you?
So start wherever you want to start.
Dream about it and we'll find our way.
That feels so comfortable.
And that even that may be uncomfortable.
True, right?
Because somewhere the mind ofBut I know where you're going.
You even if I haven't said it peopleyou know they just an okay
(22:05):
you're going to want to get to the meat.
Well yes.
If you do come as long as you want,if you're satisfied or you decide
you don't want to go further,don't come anymore.
You have that say.
And yes,
sometimes it's the internal saboteurthat will make somebody leave treatment.
They're not ready, meaningthey still have a lot of things
they haven't worked outand would like to work out on some level.
(22:29):
But they may say,I'm not allowed to even do this.
And then then you can't.
Yeah, and that's just what it is.
So I think everybody who sees people,
any therapist is familiar with thisin some way.
We just get to see it often with a dream.
Sometimes I know beforesomebody is going to leave a treatment,
you know, I mean, a
(22:49):
sometimes you can just feel that,but also you can see it in a dream.
And I might say,
this looks like you're upset with meor you're not allowed to be here.
I'm not allowed to help you or you'renot allowed to take in help, or you felt
I was too much like your motherwhen I said this to you.
I made this interpretation, andmaybe the words were too similar to her.
I'm looking for everything.
(23:10):
So yeah, you had to keep a huge picture.
I can't assume anything. Really.
I can't even assumethat Bail's theory is right.
If I can help it,I don't even want to assume that.
Let me say he might have a theory,and I found it to be helpful,
but I have to again question it and say,But does it make sense here?
(23:32):
And it's really comfortingto have a theory, let me tell you,
because you're out thereat the end of a small branch
hoping you can helpsomebody write the person in front of you.
This is there for help.
They don't care what theory you've got.
Who cares, right? Help me.
Help me understand myself.
So it's really comfortingto have a theory.
But even that if you can, you have to say,
(23:55):
Let me just weighthe material as best I can.
Let me try to use my internal voice,
my feelings, to see where this person is.
That's exciting. Part of the work.
You get to challenge yourselfevery day, every session,
knowing nothing is ever the same.
It's lovely that sometimes,
(24:17):
unbeknownst to your patient, perhaps,
that a dream will showthat they're kind of on the edge.
They're like close to getting out the doorso that you're given an opportunity
to actually go over that with them.
Yeah, Hopefully you're givenan opportunity to go over everything.
We touched on women generally
(24:37):
feeling unconsciously like zeros.
We spoke about that afterwe were talking about Jessica's dream.
It seems accurate to me and it seems like
truly a major loss for humanity.
We seem to be on the edge of just
almost losing control as humanity.
(24:58):
How do we overcome this?
This is such a big question.
I think really, it's by this process.
But outside of this process, do you thinkthat we're getting somewhere currently?
I mean, women and women'srights are sort of a popular discussion
these days,but are we getting to the root of it?
Well, it seems like we're going backwardsin certain ways, So I'd have to say no.
(25:21):
I mean, we're told all the time,Now speak up.
Talk about these waysyou've been hurt or shamed.
And then you get a backlash.
If we're not all looking inside.
Men and women. Men and women start their
look inside every single humanbeing started in a woman.
I'm not saying
men are important or involved, buteven the men started inside of a woman.
(25:44):
So you got the same trash delivered to you
that the woman sitting next to you, God.
And you were in the womb of a woman
who already knew that she was not equal.
Yeah, that's right.
Everybody starts in a woman who knowsshe's not considered equal.
(26:04):
That's a problem.
That is a problem for humanity.
One of our biggest.
One of the biggest, because it's the root.
Go back to the beginning.
You know, let's look at the ripple effect.
What ripple effect does that havewhen you're out at the 10th circle
of starting in a woman who feels likeshe is less than in some way
doesn't have the same opportunities,you name it, education, work,
(26:28):
power, a seat at the table, can't decideabout her own body, whatever it is.
And that attitude then by the 10th Ripple,
or maybe the fifth Ripple, isjust just wrote.
Of course, men deserve more moneydoing the same job as a woman.
You know, it's things like that whereyou don't even give it a second thought.
And you don't know you felt that way.
(26:48):
That's your point.
You don't know what startedwhere it started.
So, yes, if everybody can startto look inside first
and this isn't navel gazing,this isn't being completely just occupied
with yourself for a real purposeto understand
how you work so that you're not out therein the world making trouble.
(27:11):
When trouble's been done to you,you will make trouble.
We're all making trouble.We're all making trouble.
You can look around.
We are all doing something wrong.
We're not looking at problemsin the right way.
And this is just to say, look, I'm notsaying this is going to fix everything,
but I can certainly tell you,if you start to deeply understand yourself
in your unconsciousand understand that this started
(27:33):
from the beginning of your life,you may start asking better questions.
We have to ask better questions.
If you think about it just a little bit,that's a pretty simple thing
to do, really, to ask better questions.
As different questions,we have to open up our minds and say
we've been doing the same thingfor a long time.
(27:55):
We have to open, we have to goin, try to see where we're blocked.
We just may not even have imagined yet
what is the framework for the right,a better thing, even.
What does it look like?
We're using our old technology,even though we look fancy
with our electronics,we're using very old technology
(28:16):
to imagine life.
This is a way to begin
to open everything up, expand.
Then maybe new ideas get to come.
Maybe we don't have a political systemyet designed
that really represents the people.
Yes, we haven't even thought of it yet.
We haven't thought of it.
It hasn't occurred to us yetbecause we're too shackled internally and.
(28:40):
We don't know how to think of somethingoutside of what we know.
What we know. That's right.
Bernard said that imprints generallyare just beautifully simple.
Maybe they're described in a line or two.
It is hard to grasp that something
so simple can truly create such havoc.
For me, it seems like what happenswhen you disrupt
(29:03):
a glassy, smooth lakeby throwing a stone into it?
We were just talking about that.
A complicatedripple effect is created in nature, though
that is so gently taken awayand the lake is once again smooth
in Jessica's case.
Well, or in anybody's case, is it
(29:23):
easy to let the simplicity take hold?
We seem to be set on complication.
What I mean is, can we just sort of buy
in to that simple thing that we were just
discovering about ourselves,or do we want to pile on stuff?
Well, it can't.
It can't be just bad.
It has to be more difficult than that.
(29:45):
Right now. We pile on all kinds of stuff.
For us, it doesn't dissipate.
That lake never gets smooth again.
I suppose at some pointwe are just returned
to, you know, a different form of matter.
Maybe you could say
it gets smooth in your soul, hasto figure out what else it wants to do.
But we pile on a lot and maybe
in, I don't know, hundred years, 500 yearsmaybe.
(30:08):
The idea if this takes hold,if it makes sense to people,
maybe they say, right.
It started at the beginning of my lifebecause it starts at the beginning.
And there were all sorts of thingsthat disrupted me.
And it's easy.
I wasn't supposed to say my mind. Okay,I get it.
That, yeah, I felt that my whole lifeand I'll work on that for a year or so
(30:32):
and then I can let that go.
Or maybe in 500 years you'll just kind ofsit there and some of them I think.
Yeah. Yeah. This issounds like what you're talking about.
Right.
And we'll have evolved.
Yeah. It'll be more part of who we are.Yeah.
You'll just know that existsand it's not such a foreign concept.
Now. This is a foreign language.
What do you mean?
And our unconscious is a foreign place.
(30:53):
And so hopefully over time,our unconscious
is not such a foreign place.
We all have it. It's working all the time.
Go there.
It'll just be part of our day to day.
Yeah, and this is difficultto do on your own, but I think at least
you start to get some ideas and you canstart thinking about your own life.
And that's enormous. That's terrific.
(31:16):
That's it for the questions I have.
But if you leave me alone long enough,I'll come up with a whole new list.
Okay? I'll be happy to try to answer them.
Thank you again. Thank you.
So I have some questions
about the first two dreamsthat you shared.
Jessica's dreams.
I can't remember them word for word.
So I'm going to read from this paper.
So what you've presented in thosefirst two dreams, it
truly took my breath awayjust how clear it was.
Now, I know in doing the workit's not so clear.
(00:25):
But your presentation made it clear that
you allowed us to seethat there are steps that we take
and there's movementthat takes place over time.
But you look at it and you think, Wow,how could I not see that?
It seems to that Jessica really had to bein touch with her feelings.
Do patients usually get to thispretty easily, or was she unusual in that?
(00:50):
I think Jessica was unusual in
that she for somebodywho was not supposed to talk
about her feelings,she wasn't fully a zero.
She was there.
And she mayhave had to put on a lot of that.
But there was a core person therethat had feelings about things
and they would pop up in the dreams
(01:12):
and she could talk about them openly,at least in session.
So that was nice.
She didn't start feeling I mean,maybe she wouldn't even have come in
if she really didn't feelshe wasn't allowed to talk at all.
So somewhere there was a part of this,I can talk and at least I can talk to you.
But do people come inand they're just upset about something
(01:32):
depressed or confusedand they don't even know what to say.
All the time.
And sometimes they know what to sayin the beginning,
and then they're not so surewhat to say a little after that.
Because what if they've talkedabout all of that stuff?
Everything you can imagine about peoplebeing comfortable, talking a lot,
not being in touch with feelings happens.
(01:53):
There is a certain self-selectinggroup, right?
There's a group of people who decideI will go to therapy.
Some people may not be geared that way.
It doesn't even occur to themthat's just reality or
some people feel it is so shameful
to need to talk to someone.
(02:14):
Many people view that as a weaknesssomehow.
You can't just pull yourself upand you're not.
So those people may or may not be ableto come in and talk to someone.
Hopefully, over time people will get moreused to the idea that we need this
and we have these sides of usand there's a whole world in there.
And it's actually a strength.
(02:35):
And it's a strength.It's really a strength.
I'm glad you said that. Yeah.
To be able to exploreyourself is a strength.
This I always wondered about too.
So what is it about an interpretationthat helps a patient
really get it as a feeling?
And it's almost like
I want to put blinders on and think, Wait,wait, wait, wait.
(02:56):
That struck a chord.
Is that what happens? Sometimes
the simple answer is sometimes yes,you will get a hit
and you can even seewhen you're talking to people,
you might say center ahead becausethey feel or they might start to cry.
Do you have to inquire?What does that mean to them?
Does it feel right?
And you want to see?
And sometimes people will say no.
(03:18):
Yeah, you know what?
I don't I don't think that's itor doesn't quite feel right.
And I said, okay, then.
I mean, I may be sold on it.
That doesn't mean it's right, you know?
And so I have to say.
All right, Are they just not feeling itfor whatever reason?
Am I really?
I've gone the wrong direction.
Let me rethink this.
Keep talking.
(03:39):
Tell me what doesn't feel right.
Okay. Tell me where it.
Where does it feel, then? What?
What arena do you think we're in?
If the person can say,
and I have to try to seeif I can come to it, sometimes I can't.
That's just the reality.
I would love to say
I can wrap up each session with youknow, a perfect interpretation.
It's not like that.
And so as I said, Well, all right,we'll pick it up the next time we meet.
(04:02):
Let me come back to it.
And we'll try to get it rightand tell you.
Okay.
I think I think yeah, that'skind of that's what I'm talking about.
So it's collaborative in that way.
You really have to havethe person's feedback.
And sometimes it is a lightning boltmoment or an epiphany and some dreams.
Are you just moved completelyAnd sometimes it's not.
(04:24):
And even when somebody might say to me,
I'm not sure I have to think about it,and sometimes it's
very transparent, I think,how could it be anything but this?
But okay,you think about it and let me know.
Let's see and we'll watch the next dream.
Don't stop dreaming.
Think about it.We can always come back to it.
Let your mind keep going.
Let me see what the next dream says.
(04:46):
Does it deepen it?
Does it say more about it?Does it say, yeah.
Here, let me elaborate a little bit.
You hit something.
Maybe you weren't perfect,but you hit it enough.
So you have to look at all of it.
If someone were to say to you, Yeah,that that's not it, you're like, okay.
And you can start to investigateother avenues.
But if that.
No, that's not it, is itthat will show up down the road somewhere.
(05:11):
It's going to show upand then you can figure out why didn't
the person feel itor feel comfortable with it.
And thisI don't think many of us do very well.
Is it similar to trusting your instinctsand not stepping on your instincts?
Yes. That in itself is. Tricky.
Because sometimesour instincts are so backwards
(05:34):
because they've been stepped on so much.
I see that they're all turned aroundand all over the place.
So people say, Well, trust your gut.
Yes, in the best of circumstancesyou might be able to trust your gut
if you can hear what it's saying.
But sometimes your guts offbecause you've got an imprint
that put your gut not on the right path,you know it's going south
(05:55):
and that's the North Star.
It's got the wrong star.
So we have to again, like everythingI'm looking at, all the information.
It's never my goalto force an interpretation on somebody
that doesn't do any good.
It's,you know, even if it makes sense to me,
if it doesn't make sense to the patient,then.
You're not going anywhere.
We're not going anywhere. Andand there's no point.
(06:17):
So let's figure outwhat doesn't feel right.
And sometimes you're just workingwith that piece, what didn't feel right.
And sometimes you have to figure out,
is that person allowed to feel understood?
Can they even relax enough
to let you understand them,even if you don't get the dream right?
(06:38):
Are you allowed to be working at it?
Has anybody ever worked hard, hardto understand what that person is saying,
even if you don't get it rightimmediately?
That's part of it, too.
And that's lovely.
What a nice space to be in insome of these interpretations
where your patient then feels itand knows that that's the right path.
(07:00):
Like for Jessica, she discoveredthat she wasn't allowed to have a voice.
And when she discovered that, thatmust have been shocking on some level,
I would think.
I don't know. Maybe not.
But it's certainly tragic to have livedall these years without a voice.
Do people generally,even though it's tragic or it hurts
or it makes a person cry,is it also a glimmer of hope? Yes.
(07:24):
Hopefully this gives people a lot of hope
to find outthat something has been happening
out of your consciousness,even if you had hints of it
to know what it is,while you may feel the sadness of it.
Absolutely. But now you know what it is.
Before you had no ideaand you still felt the sadness, I think
(07:46):
how hopeful to knowand know that one could work through it.
That, to me, is enormous hope.
So, yes,sometimes it's a blow, but better.
You know what's happening, then?
There's hope.
How great to not have to think of yourselfas a bad person or a flawed person
because you can't do this thing.
(08:07):
Whatever it is that this was an imprintyou were given
and you applied to yourself.
That's very importantbecause people will say, Well,
aren't you just taking responsibilityaway from the person?
The person has to be responsiblefor whatever it is?
No, what we're trying to do is say,here was how it felt emotionally.
(08:27):
These were the rulesthat were put in place.
This is what you felt you had to obey.
It is now your responsibilityto fix it, to change it if you want.
So you have all the responsibility.
Nobody'sgoing to come in and do anything for you.
You have to do all the work.
It's your responsibility,but you have to know where it originated.
(08:49):
And part of that is knowing your trueemotional story.
Here's what happened to me.
Unconsciously,the whole unconscious piece is huge
because people say, Well,this is what happened to me, okay.
But I also need to know unconsciously,what did that mean to your mind?
What happened as a result of all that?
(09:10):
Unconsciously,because the unconscious, seemingly silent
as it is, is not actuallywe don't know about it.
We're not in thinking, well, myunconscious just did something we're not.
But it is actually governing everything.
And well, it's giving usthese loud messages in our dreams.
If we choose to listen.Yeah. That's right.
(09:32):
So listening to you share these dreams,more than once, I felt a twinge of.
I can relate to that.
that I can relate to that.
And it put me in a place where I thought,
I want to look at my dreams more and see
if I can discover these thingsthat maybe they show up often,
(09:53):
or the things I have to think aboutthe things that I thought were a truth.
Maybe they aren't.
We spoke about this earlier, but onsome level we can do that for ourselves.
It's not the same as having you,but again, we can investigate our own
lives, right?
And think about what we're doingand what those around us are doing
(10:13):
to help us do what we're doing,whether we like it or not.
Yes, hopefully that's what people do.
Get curious,get curious, start examining it.
Look and see what you find in your dreams.
Yes, it's hard.
It is a big undertaking,but it's so worth it.
You get to know yourself.
Bails idea was Here'sa way of understanding who we are.
(10:37):
I found it this way.
I talk about it.
I found it incredibly helpful to use that.
Now, of course, you go into every session,I try not to sell.
It has to fit into Bails theory. Yeah.
I didn't cover everything, right?
So you have to be open and just listen.
But I'll tell you, it'sa really good place to start.
It gives you a way to organize things
(10:59):
and be thinkingthat takes you back to the beginning.
And the idea was,if you want to understand something,
go as far back as you can.
Go to the beginning.
Why start in the middle?
You're going to miss everything.
so much.
So this is go back to the beginning.
Well, where's the beginning? Backwith Mom and Dad.
Where did you start, Mom?
(11:20):
There is a large group of peoplewho don't know who their parents are.
They don't know,you know, for various reasons.
So that's important.That's very important.
We have to take that into consideration.
But okay, that doesn't meanmost of the time that means
you were raised by someone.
That person will lay downcertain expectations also.
(11:43):
So it's all in there,the unconscious records at all.
You're not going anywhere in your life
where you're not interactingwith the environment on this deep level.
We are right nowunconsciously communicating.
It's somewhere in there.
We are feeling each other.
For the longest time in my life, my fatherused to like, walk around in my head.
(12:04):
Whenever I made a decision.I heard his voice.
I saw his face.
Is this going to be a decisionthat he's going to like?
And that was so narrowing.
I mean, givenhe was a strong, smart person.
But through the course of,I'd say, thinking about my dreams
and feeling different thingsrelative to my dreams,
(12:26):
he's there and I hear himand I say, okay, stand down.
And that feels very good.
That's important, right?
Why do I have to please you?
Why? I wanted you to love me.
But I'm not a baby anymore.
I'm not a kid.
I don't need youto really approve of that, too.
Am I really so worriedthat I'm going to lose your love and die?
(12:49):
Now, what about this ideathat maybe I just do what I want?
What do I. Want?
That's novel.
What if I don't hear your voice?
What do I want?
And can I just do that?
Very liberating.
Jessica had the dream about theto Robbins,
and it was so full,even though it was really short.
(13:14):
Was it clear to youwhat your interpretations would be,
or was that from the beginninga matter of collaboration?
Both. I had a hunch.
I had a feeling of where she was going,
given everything she was saying,but I had to prove it.
I don't like to make an interpretationthat I can't support.
(13:35):
I try not to just say, Well,my feeling is this is it.
And it does seem that she kind ofcame to it through her free association.
It's like, this, this, this.
Wait a minute.
Then there's this. Right.
And and some of what wasn't in the sessionbecause I didn't do every single back
and forth isI try to ask questions that elicit enough
(13:55):
thinking on her part talkingso that I can be
listening to said, All right,is that the mother or is it her?
Who do I have here? Do I both?
I hear about Robin.
What's she like? Let me hear.
So I may have a hypothesis or a hunch,and then I have to set about proving it.
And then I have to say itand see what the responses.
(14:17):
And then I have to say, is my patientjust being nice because my patient
wants to please me and won't say,What is she talking about right.
There, ready to get out of there?They don't want to deal with it.
No, she.
Doesn't want me to talk either,so I better not say
I don't like that interpretation.
So you're listening for all of that?
When the patient finally feels
(14:38):
that interpretation deeply, that's it.
Does that just by virtue of that,does that release
some of the traumaor reduce the trash in the trash can?
Exactly. It reduces it. We've now got.
All right.
Here we go. We've got a category of trash.
We now can be aware of it.
(14:58):
It's not like thatclears the whole place out.
Then you've got to go in
and have all the dreams in each dreampulls out another piece of trash.
So it's work.
And so your load is lightenedand that feels good.
So why wouldn'tyou want to lighten that more?
Jessica's dream
about the passwordand the zero is so clear.
(15:21):
It too seems so simple.
I'm sure it wasn't. That wasn't as simple.
But listening to you talk about it,it's like, wow, it's just right there.
But I get thatif it wasn't in your collaboration,
her discovery of needing to be a zeroin order to survive
and then knowing that she was following inher mother's footsteps is awesome.
(15:43):
And that's such big news to Jessica.
I find this to be surprising and awesome.
Or was she sort of like,yeah, let's kind of.
I think that she had to work upto really understanding what that meant.
I think it sounded fine.
I think she got it.
I think she could see how her motherhad not been able to become
(16:06):
who she really wanted to be.
But I think to getthe full impact of that, that was not like
you say it once.
And she went, like that's wow,
No, no.
Took time.
And I guess it's a big thingto contend with.
Pretty frightening.
It's frightening.What does that mean for someone?
Yeah, What do you mean? I'm a zero?
I don't think she came in feelinglike a zero.
(16:27):
Right.
So this is a case that that'swhat she's carrying.
So she didn't feel like a complete zero.
But what that would meanis that she would assume she was capable.
She wanted to go do things.
She wanted these job.
She wanted to get itand couldn't understand
why they would sort of all disappear.
And she didn't understand
(16:49):
that she's carryingher mother's requirement to be a zero.
So every time she got closeto doing anything where she wasn't a zero,
the unconscious would somehowdo something.
It would communicate something,which is I'm not to have this.
So it would make you crazybecause you can't think of what happens.
(17:09):
Why don't I get this job?
If they tell me I'm good, I interview.
Well,everything seems like it's happening.
Then it falls apart.
And she didn't know that that pull to bea zero was going to be so impactful
when she herself didn'tnecessarily feel like a zero in her life.
There may have been somesome things that were hard in her life,
but I don't think she would have come insaying, I feel like I'm just a nothing.
(17:33):
Yeah.
In the first dream about Robin and Robin,Jessica found that she was sleeping.
She was not engaged in her truth.
As you said,she needed to be awake to be able to take
in the meaning of other imprints.
And it seems thatthis one in the second dream,
the one of being a zero, puts her
(17:56):
almost at the base of all her trauma.
Is that so?
Do we have an imprint
that's at the base of everythingand then other imprints on top of that?
Probably I say probably because
I don't think I've seen every single caseI want to be.
I want to leave some room.
Sure.
Yes, we have somethat are going to be more foundational.
(18:19):
It doesn't meanthe other pieces aren't there.
But it's so interesting.
I mean, sometimes you think you're workingand you got to say, okay, I think we got
say, boy, lo and behold,you might peel something else back.
And then yet which one is at the root?
We may not need to even argue about that.
You just have to know they're both there.
But one was keeping you awayfrom really knowing something,
(18:42):
and that's always fascinating.
So it's not sequential necessarily.
For example,
you said,
you know, Jessica discovered thatshe didn't have the right to have a voice.
And I thought, wow, that's that's big.
That's really big.
And then to find out that actuallyshe's a zero huge.
But so I understand there'syou don't have to try hard to get to
(19:03):
this one imprintthey're all affecting work.
With it all see what the patient wants.
What's nice is what you get to follow is
what does the patient's mindwant to know in that moment to grow?
Because that's the dream that comes.
I see. Yeah.
So you're following the dreambecause that sets the treatment.
(19:25):
It really says, Go here, go here now,go there now, go here now, Go back there.
Because I'm. I'm still wrestlingwith this.
Come back, Come back.
So you get to follow the patient's mind,which is much better than me saying,
here's what I thinkmy patient needs to know about next.
That's nice for me.
But that doesn't meanthat patient needs that.
(19:50):
So I'd much prefer I have to follow.
What does the patient's mind want to know?
And the information in the dream is
always leading you to your truth.
Or you might be dreaming somethingthat is more representative
of this internal saboteurlike you've been doing.
(20:13):
So well,I'm going to put your mind over here now.
Yes, that happens quite a lot. Each dream.
I don't assume allthis is some truth about your life.
I mean, I'm listening.
Maybe it is, maybe it isn't.
It may be a whole host of things, though.
Some of them have to do with somethingyou went to
and you may make a critique about itin a dream.
(20:36):
Okay.
Well, clearly,that was just important for the mind.
It wanted this. No.
Now you might have remembered that dreambecause it's a little less
shocking than maybe another dreamyou had that night.
You might start therebecause the mind that I can talk about.
Okay, then let's start there.
Let me start where you are.
And then maybe the next night.
(20:57):
then you have the other dream.It's variable
because it really just depends onwhat the person is allowed to know.
Wants to know, needs to know, andis allowed to know in any given moment.
And what you can see with an imprintand people
having a prohibition against oftenknowing what the emotional truth
(21:20):
in the family was, who was in love,who wasn't in love, who was cheating on
whom, who didn't really want to be there,who felt trapped, who was really a baby
looking for a mother or fatherand not ready to be a parent.
All of it.
Parents don't want all the dirty laundryhung out there for all the kids to know.
So the unconscious goes to work and says.
(21:45):
Blocks it all off.
So we have to see where are you?
So start wherever you want to start.
Dream about it and we'll find our way.
That feels so comfortable.
And that even that may be uncomfortable.
True, right?
Because somewhere the mind ofBut I know where you're going.
You even if I haven't said it peopleyou know they just an okay
(22:05):
you're going to want to get to the meat.
Well yes.
If you do come as long as you want,if you're satisfied or you decide
you don't want to go further,don't come anymore.
You have that say.
And yes,
sometimes it's the internal saboteurthat will make somebody leave treatment.
They're not ready, meaningthey still have a lot of things
they haven't worked outand would like to work out on some level.
(22:29):
But they may say,I'm not allowed to even do this.
And then then you can't.
Yeah, and that's just what it is.
So I think everybody who sees people,
any therapist is familiar with thisin some way.
We just get to see it often with a dream.
Sometimes I know beforesomebody is going to leave a treatment,
you know, I mean, a
(22:49):
sometimes you can just feel that,but also you can see it in a dream.
And I might say,
this looks like you're upset with meor you're not allowed to be here.
I'm not allowed to help you or you'renot allowed to take in help, or you felt
I was too much like your motherwhen I said this to you.
I made this interpretation, andmaybe the words were too similar to her.
I'm looking for everything.
(23:10):
So yeah, you had to keep a huge picture.
I can't assume anything. Really.
I can't even assumethat Bail's theory is right.
If I can help it,I don't even want to assume that.
Let me say he might have a theory,and I found it to be helpful,
but I have to again question it and say,But does it make sense here?
(23:32):
And it's really comfortingto have a theory, let me tell you,
because you're out thereat the end of a small branch
hoping you can helpsomebody write the person in front of you.
This is there for help.
They don't care what theory you've got.
Who cares, right? Help me.
Help me understand myself.
So it's really comfortingto have a theory.
But even that if you can, you have to say,
(23:55):
Let me just weighthe material as best I can.
Let me try to use my internal voice,
my feelings, to see where this person is.
That's exciting. Part of the work.
You get to challenge yourselfevery day, every session,
knowing nothing is ever the same.
It's lovely that sometimes,
(24:17):
unbeknownst to your patient, perhaps,
that a dream will showthat they're kind of on the edge.
They're like close to getting out the doorso that you're given an opportunity
to actually go over that with them.
Yeah, Hopefully you're givenan opportunity to go over everything.
We touched on women generally
(24:37):
feeling unconsciously like zeros.
We spoke about that afterwe were talking about Jessica's dream.
It seems accurate to me and it seems like
truly a major loss for humanity.
We seem to be on the edge of just
almost losing control as humanity.
(24:58):
How do we overcome this?
This is such a big question.
I think really, it's by this process.
But outside of this process, do you thinkthat we're getting somewhere currently?
I mean, women and women'srights are sort of a popular discussion
these days,but are we getting to the root of it?
Well, it seems like we're going backwardsin certain ways, So I'd have to say no.
(25:21):
I mean, we're told all the time,Now speak up.
Talk about these waysyou've been hurt or shamed.
And then you get a backlash.
If we're not all looking inside.
Men and women. Men and women start their
look inside every single humanbeing started in a woman.
I'm not saying
men are important or involved, buteven the men started inside of a woman.
(25:44):
So you got the same trash delivered to you
that the woman sitting next to you, God.
And you were in the womb of a woman
who already knew that she was not equal.
Yeah, that's right.
Everybody starts in a woman who knowsshe's not considered equal.
(26:04):
That's a problem.
That is a problem for humanity.
One of our biggest.
One of the biggest, because it's the root.
Go back to the beginning.
You know, let's look at the ripple effect.
What ripple effect does that havewhen you're out at the 10th circle
of starting in a woman who feels likeshe is less than in some way
doesn't have the same opportunities,you name it, education, work,
(26:28):
power, a seat at the table, can't decideabout her own body, whatever it is.
And that attitude then by the 10th Ripple,
or maybe the fifth Ripple, isjust just wrote.
Of course, men deserve more moneydoing the same job as a woman.
You know, it's things like that whereyou don't even give it a second thought.
And you don't know you felt that way.
(26:48):
That's your point.
You don't know what startedwhere it started.
So, yes, if everybody can startto look inside first
and this isn't navel gazing,this isn't being completely just occupied
with yourself for a real purposeto understand
how you work so that you're not out therein the world making trouble.
(27:11):
When trouble's been done to you,you will make trouble.
We're all making trouble.We're all making trouble.
You can look around.
We are all doing something wrong.
We're not looking at problemsin the right way.
And this is just to say, look, I'm notsaying this is going to fix everything,
but I can certainly tell you,if you start to deeply understand yourself
in your unconsciousand understand that this started
(27:33):
from the beginning of your life,you may start asking better questions.
We have to ask better questions.
If you think about it just a little bit,that's a pretty simple thing
to do, really, to ask better questions.
As different questions,we have to open up our minds and say
we've been doing the same thingfor a long time.
(27:55):
We have to open, we have to goin, try to see where we're blocked.
We just may not even have imagined yet
what is the framework for the right,a better thing, even.
What does it look like?
We're using our old technology,even though we look fancy
with our electronics,we're using very old technology
(28:16):
to imagine life.
This is a way to begin
to open everything up, expand.
Then maybe new ideas get to come.
Maybe we don't have a political systemyet designed
that really represents the people.
Yes, we haven't even thought of it yet.
We haven't thought of it.
It hasn't occurred to us yetbecause we're too shackled internally and.
(28:40):
We don't know how to think of somethingoutside of what we know.
What we know. That's right.
Bernard said that imprints generallyare just beautifully simple.
Maybe they're described in a line or two.
It is hard to grasp that something
so simple can truly create such havoc.
For me, it seems like what happenswhen you disrupt
(29:03):
a glassy, smooth lakeby throwing a stone into it?
We were just talking about that.
A complicatedripple effect is created in nature, though
that is so gently taken awayand the lake is once again smooth
in Jessica's case.
Well, or in anybody's case, is it
(29:23):
easy to let the simplicity take hold?
We seem to be set on complication.
What I mean is, can we just sort of buy
in to that simple thing that we were just
discovering about ourselves,or do we want to pile on stuff?
Well, it can't.
It can't be just bad.
It has to be more difficult than that.
(29:45):
Right now. We pile on all kinds of stuff.
For us, it doesn't dissipate.
That lake never gets smooth again.
I suppose at some pointwe are just returned
to, you know, a different form of matter.
Maybe you could say
it gets smooth in your soul, hasto figure out what else it wants to do.
But we pile on a lot and maybe
in, I don't know, hundred years, 500 yearsmaybe.
(30:08):
The idea if this takes hold,if it makes sense to people,
maybe they say, right.
It started at the beginning of my lifebecause it starts at the beginning.
And there were all sorts of thingsthat disrupted me.
And it's easy.
I wasn't supposed to say my mind. Okay,I get it.
That, yeah, I felt that my whole lifeand I'll work on that for a year or so
(30:32):
and then I can let that go.
Or maybe in 500 years you'll just kind ofsit there and some of them I think.
Yeah. Yeah. This issounds like what you're talking about.
Right.
And we'll have evolved.
Yeah. It'll be more part of who we are.Yeah.
You'll just know that existsand it's not such a foreign concept.
Now. This is a foreign language.
What do you mean?
And our unconscious is a foreign place.
(30:53):
And so hopefully over time,our unconscious
is not such a foreign place.
We all have it. It's working all the time.
Go there.
It'll just be part of our day to day.
Yeah, and this is difficultto do on your own, but I think at least
you start to get some ideas and you canstart thinking about your own life.
And that's enormous. That's terrific.
(31:16):
That's it for the questions I have.
But if you leave me alone long enough,I'll come up with a whole new list.
Okay? I'll be happy to try to answer them.
Thank you again. Thank you.
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