May 2, 2025 • 50 mins
In this insightful episode of And Now Love, host Cynthia Marks is joined by entertainment attorney Nadia Davari to explore the unique intersection between creativity, legal protection, and evolving technologies in the entertainment industry. Nadia breaks down what entertainment law actually entails—from securing rights and drafting agreements to navigating new media, AI, and influencer-driven marketing. They discuss how creative professionals often overlook legal needs early on and how that can lead to complications when success strikes. The conversation also touches on the emotional intelligence required in this legal field, especially when working with artists, and how women are carving new space in a traditionally male-dominated profession. Together, Cynthia and Nadia reflect on the blend of intellect and feeling that drives both art and the law behind it. It’s a thought-provoking episode for creatives, professionals, and anyone interested in the deeper human side of legal practice.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:04):
Hi, I'm Cynthia Marks.
I head up the Holistic PsychoanalysisFoundation, established by my late
husband, Doctor Bernard Bail.
Welcome to And Now Love.
Nadia Davari is with us today.
She is an accomplished entertainmentattorney here in Los Angeles
(00:24):
working in music,film, scripted and unscripted television.
She also has experienceworking with technology
companies, new media and influencers.
Nadia works alongsideproduction companies,
record companies and moviestudios, and more.
(00:44):
Thank you for being here today.
Before we really get into this,and while it seems simple enough
on the surface,what is entertainment law broadly?
And hello.
Hi, Cynthia. Thank you for having me.
Thank you for the invitation.
Our pleasure.
And we're excited to know what you know.
(01:05):
I will try my best.
So entertainment law.
It sounds like it might be a very narrowarea, but it's actually quite wide.
It encompasses, like you just mentioned,
anything from film, television.
And each one of thosehas its own specific areas.
(01:26):
And then you go into distributionand then you have the whole other area
music, and that's its own area of law.
And then you've got the scriptedversus non-scripted
and then you we've got all thisnew technologies and content
that is created basically from the momentthat you,
(01:51):
create a work we call development.
Right?
You're thinking about making a projectfor a TV film
or for online platforms, even music.
You know, you'd start thinkingabout what you are going to be making.
That's the development stage.
So from that point on, there are
(02:12):
legal issuesthat come up and it's all about,
basically having
agreements with peoplewho are working on your project.
So, the concept of copyrightcomes into play where the person
who creates the original work of artor art or creates
any work and fixes it in a medium,tangible medium becomes the owner.
(02:36):
So if you are wanting to own
the results and proceeds, legalize
what they've created, thenyou need to have an agreement with them.
Otherwise, the elements that they create,you're not the owner of it.
For example, the person who wrotea screenplay is the owner of it.
Now, if you want to invest in that and tryand make something from that audiovisual
(03:01):
work, from that written material,you need to secure those rights.
So you need an agreement.
Then when you go to put itinto motion picture
and captured on a camera,then all the people who are working on it,
from the peoplewho are operating the camera or the lights
(03:21):
to the people who are doing your makeup,everybody needs to have an agreement.
So the other are the actors,the director, the producer, the
you know, if there are additional writers
working on it,they all need to have agreements.
So that's all part of entertainment law.
Then an area that you may noteven think about is the distribution.
(03:43):
When you when it's all put togethernow you have to get it out there.
And then you have the marketing aspects ofthat before it gets out there.
And so you hear about it.
I hear I mean, I just read about, an aurathat won all the Oscars this year.
There was a darling.
It cost $6 million to make it
(04:04):
an $18 million in cost.
Print and advertising coststhree times as much as was spent on it
from the budget of the movie.
To get it out there and make it a,
you know, success as far as the awardsseasons are concerned.
And is that typical for a filmthat is striving to be part of.
(04:25):
Yes. And is that becoming moreand more common or more and more necessary
where you really haveto put a lot more money forward
than you might have, say, ten years ago?
So that's a good question.
Has what we call Pana,which is, the abbreviation or an acronym
for print and advertisingis, always been expensive.
(04:49):
A lot of timesyou wind up spending more in
Na than you doin the actual cost of the movie,
because to get it on TV or buyads on TV, or
put it up on posters around town,all of that costs a lot of money.
Now, this is just the money they spent
for the awards seasonto get it in front of the, voters, right?
(05:14):
Members of the academy who would see itand vote for different movies and running
the campaigns, having screenings,having events, sending the screeners out.
They actually sent physical screeners out,which is not very typical anymore.
But the digital age.
And we get digital copiesthat. Still have.
The syllabus.
So not to bore your audience, but yeah, soall of that
(05:36):
is encompassed in entertainment lawand then financing part of it.
Peoplewho are putting money into the project.
Right.So that's a whole nother area of law.
And then you've got music law,then you've got you know, even within,
audiovisual work,you're going to have a composer
and then you're going to have music
that you compose that you licenseand the music supervisor.
(05:57):
So, and then all of thatneeds to get done.
And then music law is a wholenother entity onto its own,
you know, the artists and then the labelsand the producer and all of those.
If you're working on a music,and then if you have musical video,
then you have all of those legal issuesto, contend with.
(06:18):
So I could broadly
say is about securing the rights,financing it, and distributing it.
So let's even talk about this podcast,for example.
Right.
All the people who are working on it,then you've got guests coming
on, you know, to be able to use their,
image, the guest image
(06:39):
and, recordings of them,
you know,and then the people who are working
so diligently on this, your directorand financing this project.
So all of that will require legal work.
And then on the other side,also to protect it, you know,
(07:01):
copyright and, then
you've got trademarkall of that, you know,
it's legal work that needs to get done
for just one projectto make it to the market.
I think it could be.
And you know more about this than I do.
Hard for a lot of peoplethat are entering into these different
(07:25):
fields music, film, writing,
we all think of them as being creatively
based and sort of of the ilkwhere you don't think you need
this kind of technical,
stamp on everything,and you don't even want to go there
(07:45):
because you think we're just greatcreative people.
We can all make this happen.
Does that come up a lot?
Cynthia, you're right on.
This is something that I talk aboutall the time, and, it shows that
your have been with therapists and you'vestudied the human mind and heart.
(08:06):
Because especially with creative people,you know, they come to me,
they're like, oh, we just.
It's just meand my friends getting together.
I've known them all my life.
It's just my college buddiesare just shooting some stuff around.
And this is going to put a damperon our ability to be.
Creative and then I don't want to, like,sit there and talk about stuff like that,
or they just don't wantthey don't like it all about it.
(08:27):
They just want to go make their stuff,create stuff.
I can tell you the number of times where,
especially withpeople who are just starting
and younger folks,
and then something hits and it hits big.
And all the issues that come from
not having had those agreements in place.
(08:47):
I mean, I have clients and,they didn't heed my advice.
And, you know,
I do, I talk to at,
some schools to peoplestarting out at film festivals,
and I always say, talk to a lawyer,just start a relationship.
(09:08):
You know?
I knowyou think it's going to be expensive, but,
a lot of us entertainment lawyerswent into this because,
you know, sounds very cheesy and cliche,but we want to contribute, right?
We want to help facilitatewhat you're trying to do.
I believe that to be true.
It really is.
(09:30):
Maybe not everyone, but most of the time.
And the work with you,they'll figure out a way.
We'll figure out a way of, like,making it work so that it's, manageable.
And then, you know, you can have a coupleof different agreements that you can use,
and, you know,so that you don't get into that situation,
or you have a writing partner,
(09:50):
you're writing a scriptwith your writing partner,
how much should you contribute,how much that person contribute?
Who's going to make the decisions?
How are you going to decidewhere are you going to put this?
Or you know,what are you going to do with this?
You kind of want to it'slike almost like a prenup.
Yes, yes. Do you think that,
(10:11):
entertainment law is unique in a way,
in the field of law in general, in that
you know, you're helping peoplewho are sort of solely creative
and that that attracts a certain
type of person like you.
(10:32):
You could be practicingin another type of law that doesn't
stem from this creative base, which,
of course, in my opinioncomes from a place of feeling.
And by being able, as that creator,
to understand that you'recoming from a place of feeling,
but you need this sort of intellect
(10:53):
to help your feeling
materialize.
Yes. Congeal.
Yes. It'sit's like the combination of the masculine
and feminine or the ying in the yangto create this whole picture.
Cynthia, again, you'reright on the entertainment law practice
is very differentfrom all other areas of law,
(11:14):
and it's very, jargon based.
A lot of times, entertainment lawyersalmost morph into producers.
You're dealing with creative peopleand a lot of emotional.
A lot of timesthose people are very emotional.
Of course, as a business,the lawyers will help you manage that part
so you can concentrate on your creativity,
(11:35):
your kind of, you know, outsourcingthat part of it. Yes.
It has more of a human sidethan, say, if you're doing real estate or,
you know, you're doing other areas of lawwhere it's corporate law, where you're,
you know, making,you know, or you're suing some company.
Although I would argue at some level,
those thingsalso trickle down to a human level.
(11:57):
But this is more hands on.
You're right.
We only have attorneysbecause we are people and we're
we require assistance.
Absolutely, absolutely.
And, which kind of,
you know,I it's kind of the new wave of into
what's comingsweeping in entertainment and everywhere.
(12:19):
And it seems like, us in the entertainmentworld are more on
the forefront of the things that start,you know, making shifts in society.
I'm sure you heard about all the strikeswith the unions last year
and how it basically, you know, shut downthe business entertainment business.
And because we're an industry town,it kind of affected the whole economy
(12:42):
of Southern California.
So it was all, you know, mostly about, I
and protecting the creatorsfrom the invasion of AI.
So and, you know,you can take that a step further.
How was I going to affect other people'sjobs, you know, all aspects of society.
How does the field of entertainment law
(13:04):
generally feel aboutAI at this point in time?
That is.
That is such a loaded question.
You can say, I'm not discussing that.
So. Oh, are we talking about itfrom the perspective of creators,
or are we talking about the perspectiveof the producers and the studios?
(13:26):
So two different sides, right.
I would sayfrom the perspective of the creators.
And maybe I'm wrong because
unless the creators feel
good about it,it can't really go very far, can it?
I that's a very good point.
But then you've got these large models
(13:49):
that are using the works of creatorsto be trained.
Right?
So that's one part of it.
The work is being used without permission.
And, you know,they're not getting paid for it.
Well, not always, but a lot of the times.
And there's been lawsuits about that.
And then you've got the other side where,
for example, an actor might be performing,
(14:12):
but then their image is may
be used with AI for other purposes.
So they're notgetting paid for that additional purpose
that they only got paidfor this particular project.
Right.
So you can'tit wouldn't be fair to just use one,
(14:32):
image and performanceand then use deepfakes and other AI tools
to generate a whole nother projectbased on what you just captured here.
Right. So are there guardrails now?
So that was, the major issuewith the strikes
and the unions,came up with some solutions.
(14:54):
And then, GovernorNewsom passed a couple new laws.
One is that, you know,if I was going to be used,
you have to actually get the permissionfrom the performer,
and you have tothey have to be represented.
And then which ties in withwhat was in in SAG,
(15:16):
it was a great victory for the guild.
And then also on the publicity rights
side were deceased people
where we kind of discussed thatusing their images and creating a whole
nother project based on someonewho is no longer here.
Yes, I think we were talking aboutmaybe doing that with, Doctor Rael, right?
(15:40):
Yes. So I have concerns.
It's a
fabulous idea in that we could sort ofbring him back to life,
but we're bringing him back to life,
minus the feeling in the soul of him.
And I can't experience that person
without that. And I.
(16:02):
I feel like our very message,which is one of a healthy soul,
a human coming from a place of love.
I mean, these are feelings.
And I, in my mind,is missing human feeling.
(16:23):
And I fear the daywhen I, I somehow mimics.
I don't even know howthis would be possible.
Of courseI don't even know how I is possible.
I don't even know why a radio exists.
First of all,
that day scares me.
Really?
You. So, this is very interestingbecause if you say you were my client,
(16:45):
you came to me.
Hey, Nadia,I have this library of material written
or recorded of my husband,
and he was a, very knowledgeablepsychoanalyst.
And I, we want to be able to use that work
and kind of modernize itand continue his work.
(17:05):
And what do you think about it?
Like, how do I do that?
Was I you would be this is,you know, scenario of a client.
You're here. So I'm not bound by attorneyclient privilege.
I can talk about it, right? Yes.
Could you actually consider doing it
in a waywhere you think it would get his message
(17:27):
heard by more people
and continue in his path?
Or do you think there is no waythat that can be done
because it's generated by. I.
I do think to some degree it can be done.
So for example,you could go to our website now
and read one of 150 essays
(17:50):
that he produced.
And you're reading that material
and it was his voice,
his heart, his soul that
made that essay possible.
So I can question myself.
(18:10):
So what would be the differenceI versus me going to this written page?
I'll explain now.
So, I'll try to explain.
So imagine we're in year 2025.
The whole world of entertainmenthas changed
the way we consume content.
(18:33):
So it used to be the days where
we went to the theater's box office,
projects would go to the box office.
They would be sitting therefor a period of time.
Then they'd go into the second windowof home
entertainment,what we call home entertainment.
It would go into DVD, CD, Blu ray,what have you,
and then it would find its wayonto a cable TV,
(18:56):
and maybe there weresome sort of streaming device.
Not yet, but the, the beginnings of it.
So you had all these different, windows.
Now the whole thing is turned upside down.
Peopledon't want to go to theaters anymore.
Now it's going to streamers.
Sometimes people go for big eventsfor projects.
(19:17):
Right?
But still, relative to what it used to be,it's this.
It's it's virtually almost, you know,nothing is going
to the streaming platformsand then you've got, these,
Gen Zers,on their little, devices, on their phones,
and they're scrollingand they're looking at things.
Right.
And the attention span has kind of it'snot what it used to be is decreased.
(19:42):
And then people playing video games,you can go to YouTube
and look up a recipe for something
who's become very much more, visual.
People are not spending the same amountof time reading right as much as they did
before, and they want their informationin smaller portions and quicker.
(20:03):
So imagine if we could have
your husband,
the doctor, actuallyreading his own writings,
and then you could create an avatar of him
and then turn it into short form,
content with video aspectwhere people could go to your website,
(20:25):
to your social media platformsand kind of watch it.
He's reading out his own essays,
his own writings, with his own tone.
I happen to knowyour producer of your podcast very well.
I know he'sworking on some very interesting projects.
Yes, you could try and get it very closeto what
(20:48):
your husband was in fact,for what you're doing,
it might be a whole nother audiencethat you didn't have that you can reach.
Right.
And the younger generationwho would be consuming it?
Are they already more used to this idea
of an avatar than I am?
Well, clearly,because I don't like the idea all
(21:12):
I, I have
in this discussion, when you're talkingabout
viewing Bernard and listening
to Bernard as an avatar, I just can't.
I just can't even imagine it injust feels like
that takes away from
the genuine,
(21:33):
like I'm cheating someone, right?
I think that I can be usedin a responsible way.
And I feel actuallyfor this particular use,
this is an example that it could be used,you know,
responsibly, maybe try it,
have one little clip made
(21:54):
and watch itand see how you feel about it.
And is there a way that'sprobably obvious to you to make sure
that I stays on track, that
I only want these essays readand I don't want it?
That's why you have a lawyer.
So you
(22:15):
would help me be able to say,I don't want any.
Any foul. Ideas around this.
I need this. Yes.
Even before the guilds had the strike,you know, last year, we entertainment
lawyers have started to put in provisionsthat protected talent.
And there are agreements about use of AI
(22:36):
and regenerating their workwithout their knowledge or consent.
We have legalizedthat is there to protect you.
But think about how it happenedwith the music business, right?
The streaming music Napster,
and it turned the whole businessupside down.
(22:56):
Then it went to Netflix for film and TV,you know, and then it
it streamingand it turned that upside down.
And now we are likehaving another milestone, another change,
which is going to affect all of us, right?
Not just people in the entertainmentbusiness, but whether we like it or not.
(23:20):
It's here.
The question is, how do we do itresponsibly
and how do we protect people, individualswith their privacy
and the works they've createdand where that goes?
As lawyers, we can do everything
we can to help you.
And there are a number of lawsuits
(23:42):
that have come up because of it.
And then copyright law helps, right?
But of course, our lawsneed to also catch up with the times.
There's always a little bit lagging,but they kind of need to catch up as well.
And this is changing so fast.
This area of AIand probably across the board.
(24:06):
But what happens inthe field of entertainment is so present.
I mean, we all want to take part music,film.
It's it's with us.
There are the things that are happeningbehind the scenes with government and
whateverelse that we're not as a health care.
You're insurance how you get denied or
(24:28):
you get your, you know,this is a very hot topic.
Of course, with insurance, you know, how
you get your covered for a service or not?
How does that makehow does that I make that decision.
Right.
So it's not a humanbeing making that decision is a machine.
So, it's affecting all of us,all around us.
(24:51):
But we all see it more readily,I think, in the entertainment
field and in the entertainment field.
How can you, as attorneys.
Stay ahead of it and be because,like each day there's something
new coming out in the world of AIthat most of us look at and think,
how did that happen?
(25:11):
Or how is that possible?
You can't even have come up with the ideaof how
to protect someone from that,or have an agreement with that.
If you don't know that it exists,how do you do this?
I'm really, a good question. So,
when streaming was coming up and gaming
and the digital rights,
(25:35):
you know, we were scrambling and,looking at old contracts
to see if the rights werewhere, available or not.
Right.
So now we have a catch phrase, media now.
No, hereinafter, you know, I see.
It's covered. So,
there catch there, just like, catchall language that we have.
(25:59):
Right to save you. Yeah, for a while.
And then when it starts to become.
So the law is also I mean,as far as we are, the entertainment
lawyers are concerned,we evolve and we we add new language.
You know, as it comes up. So yes.
And then you've got like different rights
that come up in different waysof consuming and all of that.
Like I went to an event andthere was a whole nother area of platform
(26:23):
for consuming rightsthat, that came up and I thought, wow,
you know, it just doesn't solvethere's always something new, right?
And then those rightswere not in the contract.
Right.
But the catch all kind of created that.
So that was like another revenue stream
that they came up withlike how to consume.
(26:43):
Yeah.
And then I want to add,
you know, entertainmentlaw is not so niche as you would think.
I have clients who are physicians,
who have product lines,who need trademarking and copywriting.
And, and they've got likethere are social platforms now,
I think it's become a lot more democraticin that we all have a phone,
(27:04):
we all have a social media account,we all have YouTube.
We all have,you know, all the different apps
that people useand people are making content.
Right?
So so if I have a product,
I'm a physicianand I have a product that I want to sell
and it's going to be promoted via
social media,then I need an entertainment industry
(27:27):
to take care of the social media,which is if.
You hire an influencer, you needan agreement with the influencer, right?
Let's say you a fashion company,you hire models or you hire influencer.
We call themcontent creators, content creator
to put it up, for their followers, right?
Niche marketing to their own audience.
(27:48):
Right?
You can really pick
the kind of people you're trying to targetis more precise now, right? Yes.
You go to the right influencerfor the service or product you have
and so now you need to have an agreementwith that person.
And then you're creating all this work.
You're hiring people to do that for you.
(28:08):
You need agreements with those people.
You may want to trademarkthe name of your service or your product
and, copyright any logos
or things that you have,
writtenor created or work that you've produced.
So now a physician is now in the business
(28:29):
of entertainment, right? Yes.
And then even attorneys
or any professional or you,
you're, you know,
you're making podcasts,you're in the business of entertainment.
I'm just lucky enough to have shared
so much time with Bernardand learned so much from him.
And I'm I'm the laypersonwith a little bit
(28:52):
more knowledge than an average layperson.
Well, it makes it more accessibleto the rest of us.
I hope so. Yes. That's the idea.
But if he was with us,he could be doing this podcast.
Now he's in the business of entertainment.
Yes. Is what I mean. Right.
And he would have done this in a second.
Right.
Or an attorney would be in the businessof, you know, entertainment.
(29:15):
So, so given that there are constantly
new arenaspopping up in the world of entertainment,
I mean, we didn't haveI used to think about a while ago,
we didn't have podcaststo think about a while ago.
Do each of those specialties
require a specialist, or can you be,
(29:39):
a general contractor, let's say,
and be good enough in 27 different.
I think what you're you mean
please correct me if I'm wrong is,as an entertainment lawyer, could you
tackle all these different areasor do you need to specialize in one area?
So that's a really good question.
If you are working for a large company,large studio,
(30:02):
they usually have different attorneyswho specialize in one area.
Right.
They break it down even likewith television scripted and non-scripted.
Right.
To some degree, yes.
But, they're transferable skills.
And if you, you need to keep updatedand kind of otherwise, you know,
you become obsolete.
(30:22):
Just kind of the same thingwith medicine advances.
You have to keep taking continuinglegal education classes.
Same thing with us as attorneys.
You have to kind of keep up with it.
To answer your question,
if you're at the bigger studiosand bigger production companies,
there are attorneys who do just one,you know, they're lawyers.
Like every time I have a client who's
doing a podcast on a particular studio,I'm always dealing with the same lawyer.
(30:45):
Or if I'm dealing with the music rights,I'm dealing with the same lawyer at
a particular studiothat I'm thinking about.
So youthere are attorneys who just do one thing
because it becomes easierand they're well versed in it,
but you can potentially help clientsin different areas.
But there's some specific areas that,if I was advising
(31:06):
someone,I would say, go to an entertainment lawyer
who just does this one area,who just does like the finance part
or just especially a specifickind of financing, just does that.
I actually refer that outfor a special kind of financing
or special kind of music.
I refer that out to somebodywho does all they do.
(31:28):
But for the other generalized forms of it,
you know, an attorneywho has been doing it for a while
and has some experience and,you know, been around for a while,
should be able to kind of help.
So, for example, we have this podcast,which, as you had said
earlier, requires all kinds of agreementsbetween different entities.
(31:52):
And as I see as we're progressingmore and more and more,
that would be somethingthat you could pretty much cover.
Yes. Yes, yes.
So I, you and I should I know the words.
We'll take care of the rest later.
How did you actually decide
(32:13):
on entertainment law.
I always wanted to be a doctor
and personal things happenedand I for various reasons
I couldn't go away to medical school,even though I was accepted.
I should say that,
so I decided to go to law school, andthere are a lot of transferable skills.
You know, you're counselingyour clients, patients, you're
(32:36):
protecting their well-being, the financialwell-being and their careers.
So there's a lot of common, skills there.
I just, you know, my family, like I said,
I was raised by somebodywho's an artist as a painter.
And when I got to law school, I thought tomyself, did I make the right decision?
(32:59):
Should I stay?
Have stayed in the medical field untilI took an entertainment law class or.
The U.S is very entertainment heavy.
The business school is right there.
The film school is right thereand very much into entertainment is in LA.
I took a couple classesand I just honestly was the only
area of law that kind of spoke to meand I,
and I wanted to kind of protect them
(33:20):
and kind of make surethat things were done the right way.
And, and you creating something,you're building something right,
and you'reout of nothing and you're supportive.
Yeah. Field. Yeah.
That's right.
That's so kind of refreshing and lovelyto hear.
And noble on some level, I think.
(33:41):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So and you mentioned thatin your field oftentimes
and maybe because there's a passion
that attorneys have in this fieldfor what they're doing
or for the people that they're supportingthat isn't necessarily had an
in other areas of, of law that there's
(34:05):
a reasonable expectation that there's
some maneuverabilityin the financial situation,
like we understandthat you're doing this creative thing
and that you have,you know, a -$2 in the bank.
But let's look at your projectsand how much faith do we have in
what you're doing?
Yes, there'sdefinitely some level of that going on.
(34:27):
But then the lawyers also, I'mstill paying my student loans, you know.
So yeah, we have expenses too, right.
And you've you've trainedhard to do what you do.
And everyone needs toof course respect that and understand.
Right. We can't move on without you.
We're not going to be in debtbecause somebody sues us in six years.
Also, I should mentionI don't do litigation.
(34:48):
Mine is all transactional.
Work is just writing the agreementsfor those
I prefer my, you know, clients.
But if you do this part right, hopefullyyou can avoid the litigation part, right?
That's the whole point.
Catch the fire before it happens.
Prevention. Right.
There is a little bit more, room for that,especially for people
(35:10):
who are just starting out.
Your audience members,if anybody's in this area,
they should feel likethey can approach an entertainment lawyer
and kind of,you know, see what can be done for them.
I don't recommend doing thaton a long term basis.
But, you know, when you're starting out,definitely.
And maybe betterthat than saying to yourself,
(35:32):
well, there's no wayI can afford any of these services
beyond the fact that I also don't thinkI need these services
because we are all friends and we're goingto treat each other well forever.
That may be true, and that's fine,but there's even if that,
you know, the ideal world utopia,even that if that were to happen,
you still need to kind of know,okay, who's going to get what?
(35:52):
How do you make decisions?
How do you decidewhat you're going to do with this?
How do you decidehow are you going to release it?
You know, how much moneyyou want to take for this?
And then what if you want tomake other projects based on this?
Who decides that?
How do you, you know, take the next steps?
So that's why.
And how much do you wantto burden yourself with all of that,
that you don't really knowthat much about?
(36:14):
The risk of not being ableto have enough time
to do what you need to do creatively.
Yeah, I don't recommend a laypersonapproaching that side.
You're a very successful womanin what I think many of us think of
as stereotypically a man's
profession,particularly entertainment law.
(36:36):
What's that like for you?
Is it very male?
I don't I.
Maybe it's because I'm.
Yeah.
68 and that's what I perceived,you know sort of.
Yeah.
There weren't that many womenit seemed in, in law.
Yes. There were plenty of actresses
(36:58):
that needed to be managed by men.
But maybe that is not the way it feels.
Currently, the demographics of lawschools have changed.
They're more coming to par
5050 with women and men students,
although I think still at this stage of,
(37:19):
you know, the workforce, men, may be more,
representedthan women are for obvious reasons.
Yeah, entertainment is meh.
They are male dominated.
And also because of the hours,it's a lot of hours
and it sounds sexy,but there's a lot of hard work, and sweat.
(37:41):
Does sound sexy. It's.
Yeah, but the actual work is
there's a lot of hard workand long hours and.
You know,really have to have a passion behind that.
You really do.
What I say is a from a place of art.
It really is.
If I worked as hardin any other area of law,
I would, you know,financially would be a lot further along.
(38:02):
And it's not for the weak of heart.
So I think those are thesome of the reasons why
you might see more men in this area.
And, still, it's a, it's an area
where I think emotions run high
because you're supporting peoplewho are coming from
this creative feelingskind of place, you know, which.
(38:26):
Yes, it is very much so.
But at the end of the day, you want to dowhat's best for them
and protect their rights.
I think there are definitely more women,
now, but to some degree, what you said
still applies.
I can't tell you the number of timeswhere people say, are you an actress?
(38:47):
You know, you're an actress
or even sometimes you know,
yeah.
I won't go there.
Okay,
but do you ever feel like you're,
expected to be lessthan because you're a woman in this field?
(39:11):
I don't even entertain that thought.
You know,
I grew up with two boys, two brothers,and I was going to go to medical school.
I just, like,I just wasn't raised that way.
It just,
It doesn't.
I don't think about it sometimes. I,
I am faced with it.
And, it always surprises me
(39:34):
because I don't expect it,I don't think that way.
And I thinkthat actually helps protect me.
My blindness I think is a good thing.
I can understand that because,
you know, deep insidethat you're able to do what you do.
It doesn't matterwhat anybody else has to say.
Yeah. Male or female.
(39:55):
Yeah. You have to let it kind of. Yes.
But definitely it does happen.
Yeah. Still.
It happens to me too, in my field,even still.
And I am the same as you.
You know, I have I have a lot of,
men that work in the field that I'm in.
(40:18):
And they're a many of them.Not all of them.
I mean, I think men are fabulous,
kind of almost instinctually assume
that they know more than I doabout whatever it is we're discussing.
And all I do is move forwardwith what I know,
and that takes care of that.
(40:40):
I mean, and it's not meant to belittle.
It's it's meant to say, I'm hereand I know what I'm doing
and you know what you're doing.
And we're, you know, basicallygoing to come at this together.
You're you're not going to overrule me.
I'm not going to overrule you.
But look, I am worth considering.
(41:00):
Right?
And sometimes, it's evenworse when other women.
Sure.
Feel that way.
You know, you might be in a roomand your client is female,
but there are men around, and instead of,you know,
they look to the meninstead of to the woman.
Yeah.
So I find that more difficultthan when the guys do it.
(41:25):
When the guys do it, I.
I'm kind of
over it. Right.
But when.
Yeah, sometimes it happenswith the females, the women.
And that I find that more difficult.
Well and according to Bernard, we all come
sort of prepackaged with
(41:47):
this ability
to place women in a lesser position,
all of us women and men and
we need to stop doing thatbecause women really,
really deserve to be treated equally or
even more than equal, because we are theindividuals who carry the next generation.
(42:12):
It's I mean, that'sjust how the human body is.
But I,
I think so much of this is just innate.
And, you know, acrossgenerations, women have been treated
less than and we move it forward
without even knowingthat we're doing it at times,
(42:32):
or not realizingthat it's not the best way
to move forward, thatwe just keep the status quo, that women
are still second class,that women can't ever be.
I just read a study.
I don't know if you, I will send it to youthat, women physicians,
they're they are, they're patients.
(42:55):
If they're surgeons,they have less mortality.
If the physician if the surgeon is female,
and physicians who are female,
their patients do far better
than if your physician is male.
So if I had a choice,I would go to the female surgeon
rather than the male surgeon. So.
(43:17):
And not just with their female patients,but also with their male patients.
That makes perfect sense to me.
So did this study speak to whatthe cause was?
I don't want to misquote the the, study,
but I think it'sbecause women are more empathic.
And they
pay more attention to the environmentand the signs.
(43:40):
So I think that, yeah.
The information I want to know about.
So scientifically, you know,
proven so you know,people can say whatever they want
and think whatever they want.
The result is different. Right.
So that would
(44:00):
say to me that women are.
Better at this because
women probably right now are typically.
A little.
Better at being in touchwith feelings than men are.
So they're making decisions that arecoming, as you're saying, from the heart.
(44:23):
First and then using their skillson top of that feeling,
knowing from a feeling place person first
and then using their knowledgeto address the package as whole.
And men have as much a chance to go thereas women.
We just all need to sort of.
(44:45):
Gather. Together. Absolutely.
I mean, women are tasked with rearing
the next generationand raising a newborn, right?
And newborns have limited waysof communicating right with their feelings
and thoughts and emotions and cooing and,you know, and crying and.
And by the time they're born, you know,we on some level
(45:07):
have probably screwed them upa little bit already.
And they're havingthey're not even born yet.
So women have to be in tuned. Right.
So the same set of skillskind of carry through.
Whether I feel I'm not a physician,I can talk to it.
Although,you know, my brother's a physician,
so some and I have many physician friendsfrom observation the same kind of skills
(45:28):
kind of transfer there wherethey're in tune and they're reading cues.
Right.
And same thing in my area of profession,my profession as a lawyer.
You're reading the room, you're listening.
You know,
it might be thingsthat your client really wants,
but they don't know how to articulate itor they don't know
that they really want it.
And there's like, you know,you're almost a therapist or,
(45:50):
you know, you're negotiatingwith the other side.
They're saying one thing,but you know what?
They're really you know,you're reading four steps ahead
or in between the lines,so to speak, the same kind of,
empathyand being in tune with the environment.
It helps.
So I think that,
they're complementary skills
(46:13):
with, with, you know, men and women.
And that's probably why we have a husbandand a wife, a mom and a dad.
The kid needs both complementaryset of skills.
So there is no,
there's no reason to feel like one
sex is incapable or,
(46:33):
threatened by it or any of that.
True.
And I think all of us need to understand
our feelings together.
All people.
Absolutely.
And starting here first as an individual,understanding what's going on inside
and then seeing how what you're doing,what's going on inside of you
(46:57):
is pretty much the same thingthat's going on on the outside.
The turmoil hereis also the turmoil out there.
Yeah, trauma that we were all, you know,we were exposed
to dealing with itbut letting it play out still.
Yeah, absolutely. So
you'regoing to continue to do this forever.
(47:19):
You love it I do.
I do as all consuming and Yes.
So it's kind ofI guess I've dedicated my life to it.
What about it?
If there's one thing or a group of things
brings you the most joy?
What I know I've done
(47:40):
well for my client.
Yeah,
we got the deal.
We got the project finance.
We got the talent we wanted.
You know wherewe've been in negotiating for a project
I'm working on and,you know, getting it done.
(48:01):
Yeah, it's very gratifying.
It's also very addictive
because you're making something.
Where's my next fix I see.
Yeah. Like it.
Well and creative peopleI think feel that way.
You spending all this timecomposing a song
or painting a painting and it's finishedbut you're not finished.
(48:22):
What's next. That felt really good.
That felt really good.
That's one of the things I love aboutyou know creativity
is this build and this build and taking it
further and further and getting to a placewhere you recognize you're finished
and then moving on to something elsenow with even more skill.
(48:43):
For, for the next project.
Right. Yeah.
Same thing.
You're doing all these interviews withyou know very interesting people.
So you know what is the next one.
How is this going to lend to the next one.Yeah.
And lucky meI get to talk with the likes of you.
And so thank you the wonderful.
And it's very nice that.
We're so thrilled that you were heretoday.
Thank you for havingwe had a slightly different
(49:04):
take on our whole premise,but I totally see
our premise in our conversation,and we're talking about
feelings and intellectand how the combination of the two
help us all move forward,and how important it is to be aware
that we're all feeling individuals,and we really must start and.
(49:26):
The creative world is expressingus, right?
Yeah. This is why we also invested
in our writers and our filmmakersand our musicians.
Their art is an expressionof the human experience, for sure.
In fact,
I think we need to have a podcast heresome day about nothing but creativity.
(49:48):
That would be great.
Absolutely.
Well thank you again.
Thank you. Really appreciate it.
And thank you for listening and watching.
And follow us and come to our website.
And now dot.
Hi, I'm Cynthia Marks.
I head up the Holistic PsychoanalysisFoundation, established by my late
husband, Doctor Bernard Bail.
Welcome to And Now Love.
Nadia Davari is with us today.
She is an accomplished entertainmentattorney here in Los Angeles
(00:24):
working in music,film, scripted and unscripted television.
She also has experienceworking with technology
companies, new media and influencers.
Nadia works alongsideproduction companies,
record companies and moviestudios, and more.
(00:44):
Thank you for being here today.
Before we really get into this,and while it seems simple enough
on the surface,what is entertainment law broadly?
And hello.
Hi, Cynthia. Thank you for having me.
Thank you for the invitation.
Our pleasure.
And we're excited to know what you know.
(01:05):
I will try my best.
So entertainment law.
It sounds like it might be a very narrowarea, but it's actually quite wide.
It encompasses, like you just mentioned,
anything from film, television.
And each one of thosehas its own specific areas.
(01:26):
And then you go into distributionand then you have the whole other area
music, and that's its own area of law.
And then you've got the scriptedversus non-scripted
and then you we've got all thisnew technologies and content
that is created basically from the momentthat you,
(01:51):
create a work we call development.
Right?
You're thinking about making a projectfor a TV film
or for online platforms, even music.
You know, you'd start thinkingabout what you are going to be making.
That's the development stage.
So from that point on, there are
(02:12):
legal issuesthat come up and it's all about,
basically having
agreements with peoplewho are working on your project.
So, the concept of copyrightcomes into play where the person
who creates the original work of artor art or creates
any work and fixes it in a medium,tangible medium becomes the owner.
(02:36):
So if you are wanting to own
the results and proceeds, legalize
what they've created, thenyou need to have an agreement with them.
Otherwise, the elements that they create,you're not the owner of it.
For example, the person who wrotea screenplay is the owner of it.
Now, if you want to invest in that and tryand make something from that audiovisual
(03:01):
work, from that written material,you need to secure those rights.
So you need an agreement.
Then when you go to put itinto motion picture
and captured on a camera,then all the people who are working on it,
from the peoplewho are operating the camera or the lights
(03:21):
to the people who are doing your makeup,everybody needs to have an agreement.
So the other are the actors,the director, the producer, the
you know, if there are additional writers
working on it,they all need to have agreements.
So that's all part of entertainment law.
Then an area that you may noteven think about is the distribution.
(03:43):
When you when it's all put togethernow you have to get it out there.
And then you have the marketing aspects ofthat before it gets out there.
And so you hear about it.
I hear I mean, I just read about, an aurathat won all the Oscars this year.
There was a darling.
It cost $6 million to make it
(04:04):
an $18 million in cost.
Print and advertising coststhree times as much as was spent on it
from the budget of the movie.
To get it out there and make it a,
you know, success as far as the awardsseasons are concerned.
And is that typical for a filmthat is striving to be part of.
(04:25):
Yes. And is that becoming moreand more common or more and more necessary
where you really haveto put a lot more money forward
than you might have, say, ten years ago?
So that's a good question.
Has what we call Pana,which is, the abbreviation or an acronym
for print and advertisingis, always been expensive.
(04:49):
A lot of timesyou wind up spending more in
Na than you doin the actual cost of the movie,
because to get it on TV or buyads on TV, or
put it up on posters around town,all of that costs a lot of money.
Now, this is just the money they spent
for the awards seasonto get it in front of the, voters, right?
(05:14):
Members of the academy who would see itand vote for different movies and running
the campaigns, having screenings,having events, sending the screeners out.
They actually sent physical screeners out,which is not very typical anymore.
But the digital age.
And we get digital copiesthat. Still have.
The syllabus.
So not to bore your audience, but yeah, soall of that
(05:36):
is encompassed in entertainment lawand then financing part of it.
Peoplewho are putting money into the project.
Right.So that's a whole nother area of law.
And then you've got music law,then you've got you know, even within,
audiovisual work,you're going to have a composer
and then you're going to have music
that you compose that you licenseand the music supervisor.
(05:57):
So, and then all of thatneeds to get done.
And then music law is a wholenother entity onto its own,
you know, the artists and then the labelsand the producer and all of those.
If you're working on a music,and then if you have musical video,
then you have all of those legal issuesto, contend with.
(06:18):
So I could broadly
say is about securing the rights,financing it, and distributing it.
So let's even talk about this podcast,for example.
Right.
All the people who are working on it,then you've got guests coming
on, you know, to be able to use their,
image, the guest image
(06:39):
and, recordings of them,
you know,and then the people who are working
so diligently on this, your directorand financing this project.
So all of that will require legal work.
And then on the other side,also to protect it, you know,
(07:01):
copyright and, then
you've got trademarkall of that, you know,
it's legal work that needs to get done
for just one projectto make it to the market.
I think it could be.
And you know more about this than I do.
Hard for a lot of peoplethat are entering into these different
(07:25):
fields music, film, writing,
we all think of them as being creatively
based and sort of of the ilkwhere you don't think you need
this kind of technical,
stamp on everything,and you don't even want to go there
(07:45):
because you think we're just greatcreative people.
We can all make this happen.
Does that come up a lot?
Cynthia, you're right on.
This is something that I talk aboutall the time, and, it shows that
your have been with therapists and you'vestudied the human mind and heart.
(08:06):
Because especially with creative people,you know, they come to me,
they're like, oh, we just.
It's just meand my friends getting together.
I've known them all my life.
It's just my college buddiesare just shooting some stuff around.
And this is going to put a damperon our ability to be.
Creative and then I don't want to, like,sit there and talk about stuff like that,
or they just don't wantthey don't like it all about it.
(08:27):
They just want to go make their stuff,create stuff.
I can tell you the number of times where,
especially withpeople who are just starting
and younger folks,
and then something hits and it hits big.
And all the issues that come from
not having had those agreements in place.
(08:47):
I mean, I have clients and,they didn't heed my advice.
And, you know,
I do, I talk to at,
some schools to peoplestarting out at film festivals,
and I always say, talk to a lawyer,just start a relationship.
(09:08):
You know?
I knowyou think it's going to be expensive, but,
a lot of us entertainment lawyerswent into this because,
you know, sounds very cheesy and cliche,but we want to contribute, right?
We want to help facilitatewhat you're trying to do.
I believe that to be true.
It really is.
(09:30):
Maybe not everyone, but most of the time.
And the work with you,they'll figure out a way.
We'll figure out a way of, like,making it work so that it's, manageable.
And then, you know, you can have a coupleof different agreements that you can use,
and, you know,so that you don't get into that situation,
or you have a writing partner,
(09:50):
you're writing a scriptwith your writing partner,
how much should you contribute,how much that person contribute?
Who's going to make the decisions?
How are you going to decidewhere are you going to put this?
Or you know,what are you going to do with this?
You kind of want to it'slike almost like a prenup.
Yes, yes. Do you think that,
(10:11):
entertainment law is unique in a way,
in the field of law in general, in that
you know, you're helping peoplewho are sort of solely creative
and that that attracts a certain
type of person like you.
(10:32):
You could be practicingin another type of law that doesn't
stem from this creative base, which,
of course, in my opinioncomes from a place of feeling.
And by being able, as that creator,
to understand that you'recoming from a place of feeling,
but you need this sort of intellect
(10:53):
to help your feeling
materialize.
Yes. Congeal.
Yes. It'sit's like the combination of the masculine
and feminine or the ying in the yangto create this whole picture.
Cynthia, again, you'reright on the entertainment law practice
is very differentfrom all other areas of law,
(11:14):
and it's very, jargon based.
A lot of times, entertainment lawyersalmost morph into producers.
You're dealing with creative peopleand a lot of emotional.
A lot of timesthose people are very emotional.
Of course, as a business,the lawyers will help you manage that part
so you can concentrate on your creativity,
(11:35):
your kind of, you know, outsourcingthat part of it. Yes.
It has more of a human sidethan, say, if you're doing real estate or,
you know, you're doing other areas of lawwhere it's corporate law, where you're,
you know, making,you know, or you're suing some company.
Although I would argue at some level,
those thingsalso trickle down to a human level.
(11:57):
But this is more hands on.
You're right.
We only have attorneysbecause we are people and we're
we require assistance.
Absolutely, absolutely.
And, which kind of,
you know,I it's kind of the new wave of into
what's comingsweeping in entertainment and everywhere.
(12:19):
And it seems like, us in the entertainmentworld are more on
the forefront of the things that start,you know, making shifts in society.
I'm sure you heard about all the strikeswith the unions last year
and how it basically, you know, shut downthe business entertainment business.
And because we're an industry town,it kind of affected the whole economy
(12:42):
of Southern California.
So it was all, you know, mostly about, I
and protecting the creatorsfrom the invasion of AI.
So and, you know,you can take that a step further.
How was I going to affect other people'sjobs, you know, all aspects of society.
How does the field of entertainment law
(13:04):
generally feel aboutAI at this point in time?
That is.
That is such a loaded question.
You can say, I'm not discussing that.
So. Oh, are we talking about itfrom the perspective of creators,
or are we talking about the perspectiveof the producers and the studios?
(13:26):
So two different sides, right.
I would sayfrom the perspective of the creators.
And maybe I'm wrong because
unless the creators feel
good about it,it can't really go very far, can it?
I that's a very good point.
But then you've got these large models
(13:49):
that are using the works of creatorsto be trained.
Right?
So that's one part of it.
The work is being used without permission.
And, you know,they're not getting paid for it.
Well, not always, but a lot of the times.
And there's been lawsuits about that.
And then you've got the other side where,
for example, an actor might be performing,
(14:12):
but then their image is may
be used with AI for other purposes.
So they're notgetting paid for that additional purpose
that they only got paidfor this particular project.
Right.
So you can'tit wouldn't be fair to just use one,
(14:32):
image and performanceand then use deepfakes and other AI tools
to generate a whole nother projectbased on what you just captured here.
Right. So are there guardrails now?
So that was, the major issuewith the strikes
and the unions,came up with some solutions.
(14:54):
And then, GovernorNewsom passed a couple new laws.
One is that, you know,if I was going to be used,
you have to actually get the permissionfrom the performer,
and you have tothey have to be represented.
And then which ties in withwhat was in in SAG,
(15:16):
it was a great victory for the guild.
And then also on the publicity rights
side were deceased people
where we kind of discussed thatusing their images and creating a whole
nother project based on someonewho is no longer here.
Yes, I think we were talking aboutmaybe doing that with, Doctor Rael, right?
(15:40):
Yes. So I have concerns.
It's a
fabulous idea in that we could sort ofbring him back to life,
but we're bringing him back to life,
minus the feeling in the soul of him.
And I can't experience that person
without that. And I.
(16:02):
I feel like our very message,which is one of a healthy soul,
a human coming from a place of love.
I mean, these are feelings.
And I, in my mind,is missing human feeling.
(16:23):
And I fear the daywhen I, I somehow mimics.
I don't even know howthis would be possible.
Of courseI don't even know how I is possible.
I don't even know why a radio exists.
First of all,
that day scares me.
Really?
You. So, this is very interestingbecause if you say you were my client,
(16:45):
you came to me.
Hey, Nadia,I have this library of material written
or recorded of my husband,
and he was a, very knowledgeablepsychoanalyst.
And I, we want to be able to use that work
and kind of modernize itand continue his work.
(17:05):
And what do you think about it?
Like, how do I do that?
Was I you would be this is,you know, scenario of a client.
You're here. So I'm not bound by attorneyclient privilege.
I can talk about it, right? Yes.
Could you actually consider doing it
in a waywhere you think it would get his message
(17:27):
heard by more people
and continue in his path?
Or do you think there is no waythat that can be done
because it's generated by. I.
I do think to some degree it can be done.
So for example,you could go to our website now
and read one of 150 essays
(17:50):
that he produced.
And you're reading that material
and it was his voice,
his heart, his soul that
made that essay possible.
So I can question myself.
(18:10):
So what would be the differenceI versus me going to this written page?
I'll explain now.
So, I'll try to explain.
So imagine we're in year 2025.
The whole world of entertainmenthas changed
the way we consume content.
(18:33):
So it used to be the days where
we went to the theater's box office,
projects would go to the box office.
They would be sitting therefor a period of time.
Then they'd go into the second windowof home
entertainment,what we call home entertainment.
It would go into DVD, CD, Blu ray,what have you,
and then it would find its wayonto a cable TV,
(18:56):
and maybe there weresome sort of streaming device.
Not yet, but the, the beginnings of it.
So you had all these different, windows.
Now the whole thing is turned upside down.
Peopledon't want to go to theaters anymore.
Now it's going to streamers.
Sometimes people go for big eventsfor projects.
(19:17):
Right?
But still, relative to what it used to be,it's this.
It's it's virtually almost, you know,nothing is going
to the streaming platformsand then you've got, these,
Gen Zers,on their little, devices, on their phones,
and they're scrollingand they're looking at things.
Right.
And the attention span has kind of it'snot what it used to be is decreased.
(19:42):
And then people playing video games,you can go to YouTube
and look up a recipe for something
who's become very much more, visual.
People are not spending the same amountof time reading right as much as they did
before, and they want their informationin smaller portions and quicker.
(20:03):
So imagine if we could have
your husband,
the doctor, actuallyreading his own writings,
and then you could create an avatar of him
and then turn it into short form,
content with video aspectwhere people could go to your website,
(20:25):
to your social media platformsand kind of watch it.
He's reading out his own essays,
his own writings, with his own tone.
I happen to knowyour producer of your podcast very well.
I know he'sworking on some very interesting projects.
Yes, you could try and get it very closeto what
(20:48):
your husband was in fact,for what you're doing,
it might be a whole nother audiencethat you didn't have that you can reach.
Right.
And the younger generationwho would be consuming it?
Are they already more used to this idea
of an avatar than I am?
Well, clearly,because I don't like the idea all
(21:12):
I, I have
in this discussion, when you're talkingabout
viewing Bernard and listening
to Bernard as an avatar, I just can't.
I just can't even imagine it injust feels like
that takes away from
the genuine,
(21:33):
like I'm cheating someone, right?
I think that I can be usedin a responsible way.
And I feel actuallyfor this particular use,
this is an example that it could be used,you know,
responsibly, maybe try it,
have one little clip made
(21:54):
and watch itand see how you feel about it.
And is there a way that'sprobably obvious to you to make sure
that I stays on track, that
I only want these essays readand I don't want it?
That's why you have a lawyer.
So you
(22:15):
would help me be able to say,I don't want any.
Any foul. Ideas around this.
I need this. Yes.
Even before the guilds had the strike,you know, last year, we entertainment
lawyers have started to put in provisionsthat protected talent.
And there are agreements about use of AI
(22:36):
and regenerating their workwithout their knowledge or consent.
We have legalizedthat is there to protect you.
But think about how it happenedwith the music business, right?
The streaming music Napster,
and it turned the whole businessupside down.
(22:56):
Then it went to Netflix for film and TV,you know, and then it
it streamingand it turned that upside down.
And now we are likehaving another milestone, another change,
which is going to affect all of us, right?
Not just people in the entertainmentbusiness, but whether we like it or not.
(23:20):
It's here.
The question is, how do we do itresponsibly
and how do we protect people, individualswith their privacy
and the works they've createdand where that goes?
As lawyers, we can do everything
we can to help you.
And there are a number of lawsuits
(23:42):
that have come up because of it.
And then copyright law helps, right?
But of course, our lawsneed to also catch up with the times.
There's always a little bit lagging,but they kind of need to catch up as well.
And this is changing so fast.
This area of AIand probably across the board.
(24:06):
But what happens inthe field of entertainment is so present.
I mean, we all want to take part music,film.
It's it's with us.
There are the things that are happeningbehind the scenes with government and
whateverelse that we're not as a health care.
You're insurance how you get denied or
(24:28):
you get your, you know,this is a very hot topic.
Of course, with insurance, you know, how
you get your covered for a service or not?
How does that makehow does that I make that decision.
Right.
So it's not a humanbeing making that decision is a machine.
So, it's affecting all of us,all around us.
(24:51):
But we all see it more readily,I think, in the entertainment
field and in the entertainment field.
How can you, as attorneys.
Stay ahead of it and be because,like each day there's something
new coming out in the world of AIthat most of us look at and think,
how did that happen?
(25:11):
Or how is that possible?
You can't even have come up with the ideaof how
to protect someone from that,or have an agreement with that.
If you don't know that it exists,how do you do this?
I'm really, a good question. So,
when streaming was coming up and gaming
and the digital rights,
(25:35):
you know, we were scrambling and,looking at old contracts
to see if the rights werewhere, available or not.
Right.
So now we have a catch phrase, media now.
No, hereinafter, you know, I see.
It's covered. So,
there catch there, just like, catchall language that we have.
(25:59):
Right to save you. Yeah, for a while.
And then when it starts to become.
So the law is also I mean,as far as we are, the entertainment
lawyers are concerned,we evolve and we we add new language.
You know, as it comes up. So yes.
And then you've got like different rights
that come up in different waysof consuming and all of that.
Like I went to an event andthere was a whole nother area of platform
(26:23):
for consuming rightsthat, that came up and I thought, wow,
you know, it just doesn't solvethere's always something new, right?
And then those rightswere not in the contract.
Right.
But the catch all kind of created that.
So that was like another revenue stream
that they came up withlike how to consume.
(26:43):
Yeah.
And then I want to add,
you know, entertainmentlaw is not so niche as you would think.
I have clients who are physicians,
who have product lines,who need trademarking and copywriting.
And, and they've got likethere are social platforms now,
I think it's become a lot more democraticin that we all have a phone,
(27:04):
we all have a social media account,we all have YouTube.
We all have,you know, all the different apps
that people useand people are making content.
Right?
So so if I have a product,
I'm a physicianand I have a product that I want to sell
and it's going to be promoted via
social media,then I need an entertainment industry
(27:27):
to take care of the social media,which is if.
You hire an influencer, you needan agreement with the influencer, right?
Let's say you a fashion company,you hire models or you hire influencer.
We call themcontent creators, content creator
to put it up, for their followers, right?
Niche marketing to their own audience.
(27:48):
Right?
You can really pick
the kind of people you're trying to targetis more precise now, right? Yes.
You go to the right influencerfor the service or product you have
and so now you need to have an agreementwith that person.
And then you're creating all this work.
You're hiring people to do that for you.
(28:08):
You need agreements with those people.
You may want to trademarkthe name of your service or your product
and, copyright any logos
or things that you have,
writtenor created or work that you've produced.
So now a physician is now in the business
(28:29):
of entertainment, right? Yes.
And then even attorneys
or any professional or you,
you're, you know,
you're making podcasts,you're in the business of entertainment.
I'm just lucky enough to have shared
so much time with Bernardand learned so much from him.
And I'm I'm the laypersonwith a little bit
(28:52):
more knowledge than an average layperson.
Well, it makes it more accessibleto the rest of us.
I hope so. Yes. That's the idea.
But if he was with us,he could be doing this podcast.
Now he's in the business of entertainment.
Yes. Is what I mean. Right.
And he would have done this in a second.
Right.
Or an attorney would be in the businessof, you know, entertainment.
(29:15):
So, so given that there are constantly
new arenaspopping up in the world of entertainment,
I mean, we didn't haveI used to think about a while ago,
we didn't have podcaststo think about a while ago.
Do each of those specialties
require a specialist, or can you be,
(29:39):
a general contractor, let's say,
and be good enough in 27 different.
I think what you're you mean
please correct me if I'm wrong is,as an entertainment lawyer, could you
tackle all these different areasor do you need to specialize in one area?
So that's a really good question.
If you are working for a large company,large studio,
(30:02):
they usually have different attorneyswho specialize in one area.
Right.
They break it down even likewith television scripted and non-scripted.
Right.
To some degree, yes.
But, they're transferable skills.
And if you, you need to keep updatedand kind of otherwise, you know,
you become obsolete.
(30:22):
Just kind of the same thingwith medicine advances.
You have to keep taking continuinglegal education classes.
Same thing with us as attorneys.
You have to kind of keep up with it.
To answer your question,
if you're at the bigger studiosand bigger production companies,
there are attorneys who do just one,you know, they're lawyers.
Like every time I have a client who's
doing a podcast on a particular studio,I'm always dealing with the same lawyer.
(30:45):
Or if I'm dealing with the music rights,I'm dealing with the same lawyer at
a particular studiothat I'm thinking about.
So youthere are attorneys who just do one thing
because it becomes easierand they're well versed in it,
but you can potentially help clientsin different areas.
But there's some specific areas that,if I was advising
(31:06):
someone,I would say, go to an entertainment lawyer
who just does this one area,who just does like the finance part
or just especially a specifickind of financing, just does that.
I actually refer that outfor a special kind of financing
or special kind of music.
I refer that out to somebodywho does all they do.
(31:28):
But for the other generalized forms of it,
you know, an attorneywho has been doing it for a while
and has some experience and,you know, been around for a while,
should be able to kind of help.
So, for example, we have this podcast,which, as you had said
earlier, requires all kinds of agreementsbetween different entities.
(31:52):
And as I see as we're progressingmore and more and more,
that would be somethingthat you could pretty much cover.
Yes. Yes, yes.
So I, you and I should I know the words.
We'll take care of the rest later.
How did you actually decide
(32:13):
on entertainment law.
I always wanted to be a doctor
and personal things happenedand I for various reasons
I couldn't go away to medical school,even though I was accepted.
I should say that,
so I decided to go to law school, andthere are a lot of transferable skills.
You know, you're counselingyour clients, patients, you're
(32:36):
protecting their well-being, the financialwell-being and their careers.
So there's a lot of common, skills there.
I just, you know, my family, like I said,
I was raised by somebodywho's an artist as a painter.
And when I got to law school, I thought tomyself, did I make the right decision?
(32:59):
Should I stay?
Have stayed in the medical field untilI took an entertainment law class or.
The U.S is very entertainment heavy.
The business school is right there.
The film school is right thereand very much into entertainment is in LA.
I took a couple classesand I just honestly was the only
area of law that kind of spoke to meand I,
and I wanted to kind of protect them
(33:20):
and kind of make surethat things were done the right way.
And, and you creating something,you're building something right,
and you'reout of nothing and you're supportive.
Yeah. Field. Yeah.
That's right.
That's so kind of refreshing and lovelyto hear.
And noble on some level, I think.
(33:41):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So and you mentioned thatin your field oftentimes
and maybe because there's a passion
that attorneys have in this fieldfor what they're doing
or for the people that they're supportingthat isn't necessarily had an
in other areas of, of law that there's
(34:05):
a reasonable expectation that there's
some maneuverabilityin the financial situation,
like we understandthat you're doing this creative thing
and that you have,you know, a -$2 in the bank.
But let's look at your projectsand how much faith do we have in
what you're doing?
Yes, there'sdefinitely some level of that going on.
(34:27):
But then the lawyers also, I'mstill paying my student loans, you know.
So yeah, we have expenses too, right.
And you've you've trainedhard to do what you do.
And everyone needs toof course respect that and understand.
Right. We can't move on without you.
We're not going to be in debtbecause somebody sues us in six years.
Also, I should mentionI don't do litigation.
(34:48):
Mine is all transactional.
Work is just writing the agreementsfor those
I prefer my, you know, clients.
But if you do this part right, hopefullyyou can avoid the litigation part, right?
That's the whole point.
Catch the fire before it happens.
Prevention. Right.
There is a little bit more, room for that,especially for people
(35:10):
who are just starting out.
Your audience members,if anybody's in this area,
they should feel likethey can approach an entertainment lawyer
and kind of,you know, see what can be done for them.
I don't recommend doing thaton a long term basis.
But, you know, when you're starting out,definitely.
And maybe betterthat than saying to yourself,
(35:32):
well, there's no wayI can afford any of these services
beyond the fact that I also don't thinkI need these services
because we are all friends and we're goingto treat each other well forever.
That may be true, and that's fine,but there's even if that,
you know, the ideal world utopia,even that if that were to happen,
you still need to kind of know,okay, who's going to get what?
(35:52):
How do you make decisions?
How do you decidewhat you're going to do with this?
How do you decidehow are you going to release it?
You know, how much moneyyou want to take for this?
And then what if you want tomake other projects based on this?
Who decides that?
How do you, you know, take the next steps?
So that's why.
And how much do you wantto burden yourself with all of that,
that you don't really knowthat much about?
(36:14):
The risk of not being ableto have enough time
to do what you need to do creatively.
Yeah, I don't recommend a laypersonapproaching that side.
You're a very successful womanin what I think many of us think of
as stereotypically a man's
profession,particularly entertainment law.
(36:36):
What's that like for you?
Is it very male?
I don't I.
Maybe it's because I'm.
Yeah.
68 and that's what I perceived,you know sort of.
Yeah.
There weren't that many womenit seemed in, in law.
Yes. There were plenty of actresses
(36:58):
that needed to be managed by men.
But maybe that is not the way it feels.
Currently, the demographics of lawschools have changed.
They're more coming to par
5050 with women and men students,
although I think still at this stage of,
(37:19):
you know, the workforce, men, may be more,
representedthan women are for obvious reasons.
Yeah, entertainment is meh.
They are male dominated.
And also because of the hours,it's a lot of hours
and it sounds sexy,but there's a lot of hard work, and sweat.
(37:41):
Does sound sexy. It's.
Yeah, but the actual work is
there's a lot of hard workand long hours and.
You know,really have to have a passion behind that.
You really do.
What I say is a from a place of art.
It really is.
If I worked as hardin any other area of law,
I would, you know,financially would be a lot further along.
(38:02):
And it's not for the weak of heart.
So I think those are thesome of the reasons why
you might see more men in this area.
And, still, it's a, it's an area
where I think emotions run high
because you're supporting peoplewho are coming from
this creative feelingskind of place, you know, which.
(38:26):
Yes, it is very much so.
But at the end of the day, you want to dowhat's best for them
and protect their rights.
I think there are definitely more women,
now, but to some degree, what you said
still applies.
I can't tell you the number of timeswhere people say, are you an actress?
(38:47):
You know, you're an actress
or even sometimes you know,
yeah.
I won't go there.
Okay,
but do you ever feel like you're,
expected to be lessthan because you're a woman in this field?
(39:11):
I don't even entertain that thought.
You know,
I grew up with two boys, two brothers,and I was going to go to medical school.
I just, like,I just wasn't raised that way.
It just,
It doesn't.
I don't think about it sometimes. I,
I am faced with it.
And, it always surprises me
(39:34):
because I don't expect it,I don't think that way.
And I thinkthat actually helps protect me.
My blindness I think is a good thing.
I can understand that because,
you know, deep insidethat you're able to do what you do.
It doesn't matterwhat anybody else has to say.
Yeah. Male or female.
(39:55):
Yeah. You have to let it kind of. Yes.
But definitely it does happen.
Yeah. Still.
It happens to me too, in my field,even still.
And I am the same as you.
You know, I have I have a lot of,
men that work in the field that I'm in.
(40:18):
And they're a many of them.Not all of them.
I mean, I think men are fabulous,
kind of almost instinctually assume
that they know more than I doabout whatever it is we're discussing.
And all I do is move forwardwith what I know,
and that takes care of that.
(40:40):
I mean, and it's not meant to belittle.
It's it's meant to say, I'm hereand I know what I'm doing
and you know what you're doing.
And we're, you know, basicallygoing to come at this together.
You're you're not going to overrule me.
I'm not going to overrule you.
But look, I am worth considering.
(41:00):
Right?
And sometimes, it's evenworse when other women.
Sure.
Feel that way.
You know, you might be in a roomand your client is female,
but there are men around, and instead of,you know,
they look to the meninstead of to the woman.
Yeah.
So I find that more difficultthan when the guys do it.
(41:25):
When the guys do it, I.
I'm kind of
over it. Right.
But when.
Yeah, sometimes it happenswith the females, the women.
And that I find that more difficult.
Well and according to Bernard, we all come
sort of prepackaged with
(41:47):
this ability
to place women in a lesser position,
all of us women and men and
we need to stop doing thatbecause women really,
really deserve to be treated equally or
even more than equal, because we are theindividuals who carry the next generation.
(42:12):
It's I mean, that'sjust how the human body is.
But I,
I think so much of this is just innate.
And, you know, acrossgenerations, women have been treated
less than and we move it forward
without even knowingthat we're doing it at times,
(42:32):
or not realizingthat it's not the best way
to move forward, thatwe just keep the status quo, that women
are still second class,that women can't ever be.
I just read a study.
I don't know if you, I will send it to youthat, women physicians,
they're they are, they're patients.
(42:55):
If they're surgeons,they have less mortality.
If the physician if the surgeon is female,
and physicians who are female,
their patients do far better
than if your physician is male.
So if I had a choice,I would go to the female surgeon
rather than the male surgeon. So.
(43:17):
And not just with their female patients,but also with their male patients.
That makes perfect sense to me.
So did this study speak to whatthe cause was?
I don't want to misquote the the, study,
but I think it'sbecause women are more empathic.
And they
pay more attention to the environmentand the signs.
(43:40):
So I think that, yeah.
The information I want to know about.
So scientifically, you know,
proven so you know,people can say whatever they want
and think whatever they want.
The result is different. Right.
So that would
(44:00):
say to me that women are.
Better at this because
women probably right now are typically.
A little.
Better at being in touchwith feelings than men are.
So they're making decisions that arecoming, as you're saying, from the heart.
(44:23):
First and then using their skillson top of that feeling,
knowing from a feeling place person first
and then using their knowledgeto address the package as whole.
And men have as much a chance to go thereas women.
We just all need to sort of.
(44:45):
Gather. Together. Absolutely.
I mean, women are tasked with rearing
the next generationand raising a newborn, right?
And newborns have limited waysof communicating right with their feelings
and thoughts and emotions and cooing and,you know, and crying and.
And by the time they're born, you know,we on some level
(45:07):
have probably screwed them upa little bit already.
And they're havingthey're not even born yet.
So women have to be in tuned. Right.
So the same set of skillskind of carry through.
Whether I feel I'm not a physician,I can talk to it.
Although,you know, my brother's a physician,
so some and I have many physician friendsfrom observation the same kind of skills
(45:28):
kind of transfer there wherethey're in tune and they're reading cues.
Right.
And same thing in my area of profession,my profession as a lawyer.
You're reading the room, you're listening.
You know,
it might be thingsthat your client really wants,
but they don't know how to articulate itor they don't know
that they really want it.
And there's like, you know,you're almost a therapist or,
(45:50):
you know, you're negotiatingwith the other side.
They're saying one thing,but you know what?
They're really you know,you're reading four steps ahead
or in between the lines,so to speak, the same kind of,
empathyand being in tune with the environment.
It helps.
So I think that,
they're complementary skills
(46:13):
with, with, you know, men and women.
And that's probably why we have a husbandand a wife, a mom and a dad.
The kid needs both complementaryset of skills.
So there is no,
there's no reason to feel like one
sex is incapable or,
(46:33):
threatened by it or any of that.
True.
And I think all of us need to understand
our feelings together.
All people.
Absolutely.
And starting here first as an individual,understanding what's going on inside
and then seeing how what you're doing,what's going on inside of you
(46:57):
is pretty much the same thingthat's going on on the outside.
The turmoil hereis also the turmoil out there.
Yeah, trauma that we were all, you know,we were exposed
to dealing with itbut letting it play out still.
Yeah, absolutely. So
you'regoing to continue to do this forever.
(47:19):
You love it I do.
I do as all consuming and Yes.
So it's kind ofI guess I've dedicated my life to it.
What about it?
If there's one thing or a group of things
brings you the most joy?
What I know I've done
(47:40):
well for my client.
Yeah,
we got the deal.
We got the project finance.
We got the talent we wanted.
You know wherewe've been in negotiating for a project
I'm working on and,you know, getting it done.
(48:01):
Yeah, it's very gratifying.
It's also very addictive
because you're making something.
Where's my next fix I see.
Yeah. Like it.
Well and creative peopleI think feel that way.
You spending all this timecomposing a song
or painting a painting and it's finishedbut you're not finished.
(48:22):
What's next. That felt really good.
That felt really good.
That's one of the things I love aboutyou know creativity
is this build and this build and taking it
further and further and getting to a placewhere you recognize you're finished
and then moving on to something elsenow with even more skill.
(48:43):
For, for the next project.
Right. Yeah.
Same thing.
You're doing all these interviews withyou know very interesting people.
So you know what is the next one.
How is this going to lend to the next one.Yeah.
And lucky meI get to talk with the likes of you.
And so thank you the wonderful.
And it's very nice that.
We're so thrilled that you were heretoday.
Thank you for havingwe had a slightly different
(49:04):
take on our whole premise,but I totally see
our premise in our conversation,and we're talking about
feelings and intellectand how the combination of the two
help us all move forward,and how important it is to be aware
that we're all feeling individuals,and we really must start and.
(49:26):
The creative world is expressingus, right?
Yeah. This is why we also invested
in our writers and our filmmakersand our musicians.
Their art is an expressionof the human experience, for sure.
In fact,
I think we need to have a podcast heresome day about nothing but creativity.
(49:48):
That would be great.
Absolutely.
Well thank you again.
Thank you. Really appreciate it.
And thank you for listening and watching.
And follow us and come to our website.
And now dot.
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