August 14, 2024 • 39 mins
In this episode, Cynthia interviews poet, songwriter, and painter Stephen Kalinich, a patient of Dr. Bernard Bail. They delve into Stephen's journey of self-discovery and healing under Dr. Bail’s guidance. Stephen shares insights on the influence of his past, particularly the concept of the "mother's signature," and how it has shaped his creative work and personal growth. The conversation touches on the importance of connecting with one's inner self, overcoming traumas, and the transformative power of art. Stephen discusses his process of using dreams as a source of inspiration and the value of embracing both light and darkness within oneself.
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(00:04):
Hi, I'mCynthia Marks, and I head up the Holistic
Psychoanalysis Foundationestablished by my late husband, Dr.
Bernard Bail.
Welcome to and Now love
and welcome to Stephen Kalinich.
Stephen is a marvelous poet,songwriter and painter,
(00:24):
and he seems to handle allwith the same level of passion.
Stephen's imagined Asian thoughtfulnessand wish to continue to grow
are ever present in all facetsof his creative endeavors.
Stephen was a patient of Dr.
Bails for several years.
Through his work with Dr. Bail.
He was able to make great stridesand found himself
(00:46):
living a lifethat could not have otherwise been.
I know that he is very grateful to havehad this precious opportunity with Dr.
Bail, and we are very fortunateto have Stephen here with us today.
He is going to share some of his journey
toward healingand the aftermath of that journey.
(01:06):
Hello. Hello.
Thank you for coming here, my good friend.
You too. Thank you for everything.
So to start off, if you're comfortable,
let us know how you came to find Dr.
Bail.
And what were you searching forin terms of emotional help?
I'm trying to think who the first personthat told me about Dr.
(01:27):
Bail. And it was Dr.
Wiener and I used to go to this bakery,and he would always buy a lot of bakeries.
And he was telling me about the dreams andhe said, You should go to my friend Dr.
Bail. And one day I just did it.
And I went in and that was the beginningof an incredible relationship.
I was pretty I'm a songwriterand a poet, too.
(01:49):
I was pretty stuck,not necessarily in my career,
but just not knowingwhat I was going to do and not feeling
I was getting enough recognitionand things like that.
And with Dr.
Bail, almost immediately,I felt a real connection, really.
He got me to see clearlythat in my own poems
(02:09):
I contained a lot of the answersthat he was talking about
that how some things I got out ofat the first one.
Am I trying to please Steven or myselfor God or my mother?
When I thought of the
the mother relationshipand the mother's signature and all that
or someone else, and how much of your lifeare you really doing? You.
(02:32):
And he unlocked that doormore than anyone.
And I realized there's no barrier at allthere.
And I got a clear insight into it.
When he talked about you not doing you,what did that make you think about?
All the peace poetsand all the things in the world.
If you don't go back to the beginningas far as you can,
(02:55):
and not only does it gobefore birth, and I thought,
if I'm doing things to please my mother,
my friends, whoever it brought up to me,I'm not doing myself
that I have to overcome or notlet that take me off base
and that no matter how much I did of itor how much we talked about world peace,
(03:17):
unless I would go backto the beginning, that
original sin might be just a DNAthat's still before your birth
or something in there that masks,which is really the mother signature,
that mask as here,they say you have all these things.
Your original sin could be the mother'ssignature.
Could beand it could be something like that.
(03:39):
Instead of thinking you could never getbetter that it's before you were born.
And it's even most of them went downto, what, six months to whatever.
My ex-fiancee was a psychologist,a good one.
So I read all her bookthat everyone you know,
I didn't know what I was readingwas wrong.
But Dr. Bail, I felt a clear path.
From the beginning.
(03:59):
Pretty much after a few months.
But what when he got quieter,when he couldn't talk as loud,
he would always say, Go to the source.
And that's before the mother signature.
And by doing that,I have a direct connection.
Whatever that original sin, whatever thatmother's things are, I can break that.
And all great artand all great music comes from a source.
(04:21):
If you don't want to call itGod, call it Spirit,
call it the consciousnessthat moves through all living beings.
So my poetry was informedby a lot of that.
I think all the great composerscome from that.
Now, you don't have to call it Godif you're want to be in it, not whatever,
but whatever that is, is the prime mover
that moves through all livingthings, creatures and through man.
(04:45):
If there's going to be any world peace,it has to come
by going before a mother signaturebecause.
You have to feel a true peace within.
Yeah, well,if you're not, feel the true peace.
As long as you're carryingthe weight of the mother's signature
or that whatever, that deep unconscious,whatever you might want to call it,
that's my view actually.
Let me say it.
(05:06):
He pulled it out of me without pulling.
Which is the is the most fabulous thing.
You had some you can. Rest on your own.
That through my art and music if I don'talways give Steven all the credit.
Well, it's just a big deal
in this town of being a celebrity or thisand that like that.
You're something specialbecause you're a celebrity.
But what he taught me is thateveryone has the potential to be special.
(05:28):
Everyone has a beautiful soulif they get to it.
And they will not be as ABBA rated wars,hatred, killing, all that
come out of a misconceptionof what a self is. Yes.
So a self is a naturally selfish,awful killing
and that's what you need to get had.
A self can be cooperative and help,but we also need principle.
(05:48):
You can't just go along with everything.
You have to stand up for certain things.
And Dr.
Bale, like when he stood up with a lot of
psychiatrists against things,you have to be willing to challenge.
Because when people havesomething established,
especially when it's making money,whether it's a medical system, whatever,
they fightlike hell for nobody to change it.
Even though they say they're open, they
(06:09):
they think it's trueand they don't want change in progress.
They want it to stay because maybe one dayyou won't be the one in control.
Someone else will come upwith something better.
But it's still in service of the self.
Yes, money can be such a motivatorand power can be such a motivator.
But both of those things take us awayfrom who we truly are
(06:31):
and don'tlet us bring our gifts to the world.
We can't help humanity in that way.
Did you find through your work with Dr.
Bale that your poetry, your writing,
let's say you were working on a pieceabout world peace.
Maybe in the past, would you say, Well,
you know,what will my friends think of this?
(06:51):
Or what would my mom say about.
I used to think about that.
But I think with Dr.
Bale, that was when I got the clear sight.
It's okay to want for myselfas long as I want for humanity.
I don't have to stop the selfor become the non self
like in some of the teachings,or burn my body or anything like that
by increasing myself to include
(07:12):
all other beings in one consciousness.
In that moment is where answers may lie.
More answers to the problems of humanity.
And the reason we've never been able to doit is because of that mother Sin
is probably
the greatest problem on the planet,if you want to call it something else.
Aberration, holy sin person, whatever.
(07:34):
Unless we get clearand unless we realize that which I believe
a lot of people don't believe it,but I believe that
there is what I call a goodnessand something
maybe not on the terms as humans think,but that also has principles.
Goodness has principle.
You don't do bad things to people,you don't kill people, things like that.
(07:57):
So we all have that in us.
Yeah, we all have that in us.
And I think that'swhat's holding the world back
since the beginning of time.And I think it's ever been addressed.
And that's what I think.What's special about Dr.
Bale's work for meand I found practical ways
like if I get really angrybecause my ego gets wounded now, I can
(08:17):
breathe
then and say, I don't have toplease anyone I did do wrong there.
I have to, first of all, forgive myselfand then understand if the person doesn't
forgive me.
A lot of people when they don't want tosee me again, a girl or whatever, a woman,
and I used to keep writing to her anyway,but I realize you just let it go.
Life will work it out.
You know, things like that.
(08:38):
That sounds simplistic,
but also to be realisticthat you do have to take steps
like you can't say, I'm just goingto get it to have the good flow into.
You've got to do the work too.
It's a lot. Isn't that true?
Like even in your field or whateveryou're doing, you've got to do the work,
whether it's write the song and be open towhat the universe can move through. You.
And if the less you give yourself credit,I feel Dr.
(09:02):
Bale helped me that I think that's oneof my suits and I don't always have it.
As many people will probably tell you
I'm aware of it.
But to give the credit to grace
to the inner workings of a soul,not somebody out there in the sky,
but something within usthat we haven't unlocked yet.
And if we can unlock that,we have a chance to
(09:24):
to go and overcome a lot of the darkness.
And you've done that. And some of itI've done.
I think it's kind of our life's work.
It is our life work.
And I realized that it wasn't enoughfor me to write the poems and,
you know, get there.
And I have a good ego and feeling good.
I'm good and feel like I'mdoing good for humanity.
But until I can actually live the wordsI write,
(09:47):
till I can live the goodness and kindnessand terms.
When I see all the starving, hungrypeople in the world, it's not simplistic
to want to help people,but I want to help myself too.
But I think that it's hard to getto a point where you can really care
that what you do for othersand ultimately affects you.
I'm having a hard timewith the world situation now.
(10:09):
A lot of people are.
I know no one wants to talk aboutit are very few, but what is the way?
And we do need some kind of a morality,some kind of right or wrong.
We do.
It's not all ethical relativism to me,
but I can't explain it in termsthat everyone can understand.
And it's not all intellectual
where we need to work with our feelings,with yeah.
(10:31):
With our feelings and our emotionsand besides emotions and feelings,
I think there is a some principle
which might be before at the beginning.
In the beginningwas the word that citizens are scriptures.
But if we translate thatfor in the beginning is the word,
not for Christians or Jews or anyone,but just for all beings and all people
(10:55):
that that that is probably where
some of the answers can start to emerge.
But we have to do it out in this worldwe're living.
In, but we have to figure outhow to do that within
in order to be able to do thatwell outside. Yes.
And we have to not only be goodand get applauded for what we do,
we have to really want to have,I think, care for others.
(11:17):
I think humanity.
Well, I think if we can undo the traumaand we can't probably accomplish
all of that in our lifetimes,but the more we do that, the more we I.
Think we all sit on beds of traumathat can explode at any minute.
I think of the people I tried
to stay friends with thatjust tell me anything to do with me.
And Inow I know I breathed that kind of laugh.
(11:40):
I said, my God,
I feel so bad for what I did to them too,to just let go of someone.
You don't needthat I'm even rethinking of.
Maybe, but a lot of peoplewon't like this, but I'm rethinking that.
I don't need to haveeveryone know me on social media.
If the work that I do is good, I will.
I'll be okay.
It feels like I will be anyway.
I know that's a hard position to be in.
(12:02):
What about social media?
Do you not like in terms of your exposureon social media?
It probably could be usedin service of good.
But if I could learn to promote others,
like I want to promote myselfand I realize that there's so much of,
I did this, I wrote for the Beach Boys,I did a duet with Paul McCartney.
Things that I have done,it doesn't make me any stronger or better.
(12:26):
I'm, I'm happy for it, but it's not,
you know, like, whatever it is, there'sno there's no place.
Just do your work
and try to be a good personand and allow others to be good to it.
You don't have to get all the attention.
No, but those relationships do speak
to a certain level of creativitythat you have. Yes.
(12:47):
But when I realize my creativityfrom my viewpoint, I feel that
I'm aided inwardly in a waythat I cannot express in full terms.
When I hear the great poetry teachersand this person is the great
and this person is the great,
I want to learn for myselfwhat resonates, what stirs me.
I see what is your great,what you perceive.
(13:09):
And what do otherbut also allow that other people may have
a different view and try to listen totheirs are not forcing my way on everyone.
Like if it's going to hurta lot of people,
I don't think it's a good thing,but I don't know how to set the parameters
on that.
Well, and there's a lot of thathappening on social media.
Yeah.
So I want to be more carefuland more thoughtful and I try to want
(13:30):
to not make people feel belittledor that I'm more important.
Can you talk a little bit about howthe process worked for you in Dr.
Bales office?
Did he take some time getting to know you?
Did he come toyou asking for dreams right away.
Through the dreams as well? How?
I brought up the images about the art.
(13:52):
I should have said that first.
First, as we explored the dreams.
And he would tell methere's light in that dream.
Or when my painting was really darkand light was emerging
and he saw an orange or a yellowcoming through a black.
It's like I was dreaming these paintingssometime.
And by me wanting to dive into colors.
(14:14):
So instead of just the wordsworld of peace,
I was starting seeing orangesand yellows and blacks
and how much I had all the colorsand which ones can express and which ones.
And what about whydo they always have to look like a person?
Why can't they be shapedlike the galaxies?
Or why can'twhy does art have to be that perfect?
Like a perfect?Why can't it just be what it is?
(14:37):
How children dowhen they put a hodgepodge of clay
or like that,allowing that part of creativity?
There's a destructive partthat can come by, like not limiting people
in any directioneither, You know, I'll go, honey, explode
with those and your kid blows upyour house or something like that.
I don't condone that.
(14:58):
Thank you.
But I'm being funny.
But you know what I mean. Yeah.
When you would come to talk aboutthe colors you were seeing in your dreams,
would Dr. Bails say so?
Tell me,
when you think about the color yellow,what does that bring to mind for you?
He didn't talk that way with me.
He would, like, try and get more from me.
(15:18):
And then it came to the pointwhere it almost was.
He almost said, It's spirit,something to that effect.
When you get to the pointwhere you're turning it to this
invisible creative forcethat moves through all beings
and not just think the paintersand the composers are the creative alone,
but that all humanshave this creative spark.
(15:41):
He opened up that for me.
So it could be the dishwasher,it could be the thing.
And not to put yourself because you'reextra creative in a special category.
At least I got that.
And also you could bring out your ownunique gifts because all those people
have some kind of gifts. Like today.
I'm just going to bring it up.
But this makeup girl you had for me,she was so lovely.
(16:05):
And the way she was kind,
not pretentious,it was just like a very creative feeling.
So it comes from all placeswhen you try to be open to it. Yes.
And she's so thrilled and happy about whatshe's doing.
She's passionate about it. Yeah.
So but tell mea little bit more about the process.
So the process waswe started the session maybe,
(16:28):
and I would start talking about my dreams.
And did you write your dreams down?
I wrote a lot of them down.Not all of them.
I wrote a lot of them down.
But I had dreams.
I mean, I had dreamswhen I would be writing in the car
and I'd go off the road in Malibu,
and then I'd be driving into the waterand it was a dead end road.
And sometimeI was with my first wife, ex-wife.
(16:50):
And sometimes I was aloneand I was going to drown.
And I had a lot of those kind of dreamsfor a while,
and I couldn't stay on a road.
And I had dreams where I was flyingwhen I was cruising through the universe.
And then sometime I combine itwith when I did go to New Zealand
and landed on the SwissAlps and almost fell through the ice,
the pilot of the helicopter said,You can't go there without me.
(17:13):
You could fall down something.I could never get you out.
The Alps and in New Zealand.
Is this reality or dream?
It was both, but that was reality.
But that fueled some of the dreamsand was like in.
Pretty potent and scary. Yeah.
And when I was in Hungaryat the the big museums
and on the water in Venice, Italy,and walking across the canals,
(17:34):
how much of it was a dream,I walked the streets of Venice.
In my mind,I've got to get that poem out again.
And I would I'd live it.
And I met the everyday people on the LidoSenior is retired
and I met the people everyday that will gowith flowers to their husband's grave
and Little Island, Italy and Hungary.
There were peoplewith babies at the airport
(17:56):
or at the train stationand they tried to get money.
But then I found out latersome of them would take the babies
from their friends in the day and use themand they would split them.
Not that that's if that's a survival,but I mean, there's
just all kinds of things that I opened upto that living in America.
I did a song called StevieNobody Wants, and I said,
(18:16):
My name is Steven, but I'm not StevenSpielberg, you know, But I live in America
apartment, see, like thejust the everyday American experience.
But when I matched it with travelingand going in, really in the dreams,
it all became part of the journey.
And sometimes they would mix up.
And that makes. Sense.
But by being just awarethat I might be living
(18:39):
what you what my mother wanted for me,the mother's signature.
It might have beenmy grandmother might have been before her
and might be back to the beginning ofwhen my in my part started.
Among the genetic all those things thatare alive in this consciousness somewhere.
And maybe that's what original sin is.
I'm the one I think I thought of that,but maybe he thought of it.
I don't know.
But I just came to meso asked questions about that.
(19:01):
So the dreams helped me.
I have more clarity now.
Like sometime I make a lot of typosafter I had a stroke.
And so I do.
And I know my grammar is not perfect,but I think to get the poetic thought
and the thought can uplift humanity out,try to get it as clear as you can.
And that's the important thing.
I think it's important to learn thatthe technical parts, but the main thing is
(19:23):
to get your God energy, your grace energy,
your creative to get that flowing.
And I think Dr.
Bale, by unmasking some of these dreams.
Whatever your endeavor.
Whatever your endeavorsand what's holding you back,
what in your dreams is holding you back,what are you afraid of?
What's the fear?
What's the fear of death?
(19:44):
And did he ask youthose kinds of questions?
Yeah,we talked about everything like that.
But as he got older, the more he came
to a quietness to realize
that I must look to that kind of Godenergy or grace energy.
He didn't call it that.So I don't want to misrepresent.
But I think what he said is a lot like Ithink it's what you said in your podcast.
(20:06):
And I think to get to love loving this,not for to gain
love back, but the flow of love,that is what can heal.
Nations can heal wounds.
And are we thousands of years awayor are we ever.
But I think that's the directionfor the world.
Someday. It's the only way to go.
It's the only way.
And I think that all the nationsare all off a little.
(20:30):
Well,I think I think the world is off where.
I think where as long as you wantto create these kind of enemies,
rather than look for wayswe can get along and doesn't
have to be bad for a lot of people.
No, but we just don't knowhow to work from love we're working for.
Yeah, fear and our in.
And jealousy and greed sometimesjust wanting and there are people
(20:53):
however they've got congestedin their consciousness.
I'm using my termthat are not for everyone.
And you also when you're going out there,
you have to don't think everyone'spotentially good on this existence.
I'm not saying overalland like some spiritual namby pamby world,
but in the real world,there's some hard assets out there
(21:14):
that are out to make sure you don't getthat promotion or that are jealous at work
because you got to thinkthat you did something good.
They don't like it.
They get envious of you. It'snot your fault.
But and so if you're in a placewhere you understand your true self,
when you come across those people,you know
sort of what to do with themin terms of your own well-being.
Yeah.
And you learn sometimes silenceto not engage a person like that.
(21:38):
If you can avoid it.
And you can't fix everyone.
And you can't fix everyone, but in otherwords, there's a harshness to a teaching.
Ah, not a harshness, buta hardness of firmness is a better word.
You must be firm in your moral content.
This is this is right.
So, for example, what would he have sharedwith you that would show that firmness.
(22:00):
By blaming someone elsefor something that you've done yourself?
I see. And he would sort of bring that up.
Here's the thing that happened.
This is how it really. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And also me realizingthat maybe I overdid do it.
But some of peoplejust want to get rid of me as a friend.
Or maybe I did try to fix some peopledon't want to be fixed that way
(22:20):
and then maybe they're just not clickwith you, right?
And you.
And when you're trying to impress people,eventually somebody will call you.
There's no.
But when you understand your worthon your own personal level.
Yeah.
And you don't needthe payoff of social media
or the press are being famous.
You, you feel good and contentwithin yourself for what life you do have.
(22:42):
And if all of that.
That's what Dr. Bale works toward with me.
Does that make. Sense?
It makes sense.
So what do you do now without him?
I try to work it as best he brought mealong enough that I'm trying to work it
as I can, and one by oneI can feel like even a block in your body
because you store it in your body traumas,you still store it somewhere.
(23:06):
But I'mif you love enough and long enough,
if you're learned stillnessenough to be loving stillness
not just still like a meditation alone,but to have.
I know people say don't use an intentbut a loving ness toward yourself.
You can un class and that willsometimes release pain out of your body.
You may need help of a therapistlike I did with him,
(23:28):
or you may need a doctor to stitchyou up, but you can.
That's the paththat I find closer for healing.
So you can use this methodto potentially cure physical pain.
For myself. Potentially.
But have I mastered it?
Was I circlealmost by the end of the year?
Yes, butI'm staying with that kind of process.
(23:49):
I'm trying not to deviateor be angry at life because I'm sick.
I just don't see any pointin that anymore.
But some time I feel like it,but I try to resist that.
And you recovered?
Yeah. And Dr.
Bails is not only was good in that way,but it was a very pragmatic way
to live with that, knowing thatunless you do,
your trauma is going to stay alive andactive in your experience in your body,
(24:14):
and you'll probably never overcome itthe rest of your life
and you'll die with it.
I mean, that's a hard one.
So you're dying with the same mothersend that you were born with,
maybe a little modified and you'repassing it on to your kids and on and on.
Until someday we get that break.
Maybe that's all I'll say.Let's cut from that.
I think there's a potentialfor a healing of a consciousness.
(24:35):
And I think he was on to somethingthat I don't think
they even grasp it totallywhat what he was ending at.
That's what I got out of that.
Yeah, well, and we need more peopleto understand this in practice.
Via his methodology.
Practicing the methodologyand practicing living, loving kindness.
Yeah, that's the base in.
Practical terms, for humanityand not just for yourself.
(24:57):
Do you still pay attention to your dreams?
Yeah, I probably could pay more attention,but I'd.
My dreams have been different,and I'm having a harder time
dreaming and sleeping now,so I do still listen to them.
So if you do remembera dream, do you think?
What does that mean?
What can I look to in that dreamthat's going to give me a key?
(25:21):
There's something that my unconsciouswants me to know.
Can you do some of that on your own?
Yes, I can.
And also, I can tell in a dream sometime
that I'm blockingthat something in me is blocking it.
And if I can pinpoint that time,I can get that body part to calm down.
It might evenit might even do it as simple as saying
(25:42):
don't eat cherries at night,but only eat six or seven of them.
But don't eat pineapple at night becauseyou're either going to get acid reflux.
I mean, that soundsthat's a of out of a dream.
I can get that now.
No, that's kind of weird,but that's great.
I have a hard time sleeping still.
I wish it was here because I'd like to getthrough this sleeping thing,
(26:03):
so I haven't been perfect on it,but I'm using it as best I can.
Well, we were talking in another episodewith Dr.
Lauren Weiner,and we were discussing a patient's dreams,
and she was sharing thatin this patient's dream.
She wasn't allowed to speak.
She discovered that via this methodor that method, she was being shut down.
And in her real world,she had a terrible sore throat.
(26:27):
Her inability to speak her imprint,
you are not to speak,was presenting itself physically.
And I still I think that's pretty amazing.
That and it seems so simple,but yet it's really complicated
for all of us to get to a placewhere we feel comfortable
knowing that our feelingsand our physical are attached.
(26:50):
And they are.
And what you what you were sayingin the beginning when we talked,
the trauma is alive in there,but it also not just in your mind
and thing as a physical form,but some element of physical, mental combo
tied together is time as a massin your body, not just as a thought.
(27:10):
And that's what the realize that that'swhy you have to address it.
You can't just think it awaybecause you got to go back
and release that experience.
So from my experience,
it doesn't seem to automatic for notfrom what I've gathered so far.
No. And a lot of us, you know,we can treat some amount of illness.
And sometimes you need help from someone.You do.
(27:31):
Yeah. Yeah.
And I'd like to find.
But I haven't met anyone else like that.
Even the ones that study like that,they're good, but not.
It's not the same.
So I don't know if I'll ever have another.
So I have to work with what I knowand try to.
And I'm still listening for the dreams.
Every nightI watch them and I sometime write.
I try to write a lot of them down.
(27:51):
And then you go back and review them.
Yeah, I go back and review
and then the same dream will comeand another door will open.
I didn't try that door.That's great. Yeah.
And as you work through dreams,your dreams change and they lead you,
as you're suggesting, to a new dreamor a different dream, a different door.
Yeah.
What I was surprised is,even though I'm write these poems
(28:15):
and there's a lot of light, how muchdarkness I still have within myself.
I think if you can facethat, it's helps you a lot.
So how do you see that?
Or how do you.
Know when I feel a real anger, fearor a hatred? Why?
Or if I'm envious of that, you got a breakthat I didn't and I won't tell anyone.
I pretend like I'm not.
I could feel that.
(28:36):
And then the dreams I feel more.
But like you got the break that I wanted,you know, like you didn't deserve it.
I'm smarter than you. We.
I don't know if you ever had feelingslike that, but I do.
Sometime I try to do them less, and thenI realize they're wrong now, at least.
So that's a good sign, isn't it?
And I realize those people.I don't go back to them anymore.
I just let it go. Yeah, so you.
(28:56):
But you can stop yourself and think,
Wait a minute,This isn't the me, the loving me.
Yeah. And also,I used to write him a note or something.
I'm sorry if I. But.But now I just let it go.
I mean, that's my way.I'm not saying everyone.
And then if they come back, they do.
And most of the time they don't.
And that's okay.
It's okay. You got to move on. Yeah.
You can't please every personin this life, in this dimension.
(29:18):
There's still a lot of sadness.
There is through this work with Bernard.
You came to understandall of this about yourself.
I came to understand much more of it. Yes.
And I never had an experience like himeither.
Me neither.
I had great doctors, great people.
But there was something differentabout him, that quietness he got.
(29:39):
And you know that at the end.
Well, it was hard for him to speak.
And so what he had to sayhad to be pretty pointed.
He needed to use his words wisely.
So also, through your work,I think with Dr.
Bail, you came to a place of paintingthese fabulous paintings.
Yeah. With him I opened up more.
(29:59):
He loved my paintingand even that one that you guys couldn't
hang the black one with the thing.
He liked that, but he liked that I'm usingthat fire of energy against the darkness
that I'm. I'm breaking through.
He really enjoyed.
He could see interpretit more than just as the painting.
And what about you?
What does the painting do for you?
Each one is different, butI find certain things opening up in it.
(30:21):
Everything doesn't have to be a face,doesn't have to be defined.
But sometimes you want one.
Sometimesit doesn't have to be a good face.
It just has to be convey an emotion.
Well, I think your painting is fabulous,I feel like.
And you'll tell me that you are
really letting your unconscious speak.
I really feel that I am.
(30:42):
And I thinkwhen I really let go in my spoken
like I wrote a poem about the ocean,but instead of romanticizing it,
like a lot of people, I realize the oceanknows nothing about human kindness.
It is ruthlessly itself.
When it comes, a wavecomes, it's not going to stop.
that man's there.
It doesn't have that.
It's on a largeror a different scale than humans.
(31:04):
And the recognition of that,I think, is very positive
because you know where you shouldn't treadmaybe in this life,
if you really tune in to your dreams,you will know I shouldn't
go that rocky precipice because I couldfall into the water and be gone forever.
It gives you some survival on this planet.
Navigation skills.
(31:25):
And you can apply those sorts of feelingsto relationships with other people.
And relationshipsto maybe this relationship.
One of my relationshipsI should have never gone in, but I did.
But if I was with Dr.
Baily, I might have known.
I love her like that,but it's not worth my sexual
my other feelings to gowhere I'm where I'm in a tornado.
(31:45):
I'm in a hurricane of consciousnessthat I don't know how to get out of it.
It'd be like knowing the arc,the waters coming,
you're going to either drownor you're on the ark.
And then if you don't like it on the ark,what are you going to do
till you get to land?
And then you're going to mess up again?
So in that relationship that you were in,
where you ultimately realizedit wasn't healthy for you.
It was too late for her.
(32:07):
But for me, I was okay.
But I got through it.
But it was so many woundsI couldn't even tell you.
Maybe even made me impotent.
I made more problems.
I had all kind of problems.
And I, partly by not addressing it
or not seeing it for what it wasor thinking, everybody's good.
That's somethingyou got to watch, that is. Yeah.
(32:28):
So describe that a little bit.
Thinking everybody's good.
And I think.
That everybody's reallyas not sorted out to be a really
when I say good I mean I'mnot that they're awful evil people,
but they're mostly still in a survivalfor themselves
and it's hard for them to have enoughto think of others and humanity.
And I don't even mean it sometimesit's just they do not know.
(32:51):
They don't.
They don't know.
But it is difficult for people to processdoing good for others sometimes.
Yeah, because that means a cost to them.
And the one thing that Dr.
Bail taught meis that it's good to give to others
and not just to take for yourself.
You have to be willingto let go of something
(33:13):
maybe that you wanted for a higher good.
Well, I think that's part of our truehuman experience, is to be able to give.
If you've gotten rid of the trash,then it's sort of a natural occurrence.
You just automatically give to the restof humanity because you're coming from it.
And I want to tryand give more to people in my way
(33:35):
with less selfishnessand knowing I'll never do it.
All that is my legacy.
And I think he helped me a lot in that,or to try and be a good person.
There's a lot of people say, I'man egomaniac.
I might have elements of that,but I try to face the darkness.
And one thing that I learned,I wrote a song with P.F.
Sloan called Embrace the Darkness.
(33:55):
P.F. Sloan wrote Eve of Destruction,Secret Asian Man, lot of song.
He's deceased now, a wonderful writer.
But in that we embraced the darknessbecause from the darkness,
we can learn the lightand from the dreams.
A lot of the darkness will emergeif you open up and don't block them.
So the darkness represents reallythe parts of ourselves that we're afraid.
(34:16):
Probably, yeah, that we're afraidto explore and that we're afraid to face.
And that unaddressed traumas could be
the storms and oceans of our consciousnessthat look like thunder and lightning
and clouds and irresistiblethat you can never get out of the vortex.
The black holes of existencethat seems no tunnel out like some
(34:38):
some of the world situation. Now.
One thing that a few people have said,and I felt this myself, is that
when you're going through this processand you're discovering
what your trauma isor parts of your imprint,
you almost step back like, Wow,that's a big discovery.
I realize I'm not to be loved.
(34:59):
I know that.
And now that I know that I can operatefrom knowing that
all of the trash that was held in that
container has been released or some of ithas, How do you fill in the spaces?
I mean, how do you dealwith this different existence
now that you get a glimpse of the factthat that's not true?
(35:20):
You put it by living more kind of actstoward more people.
That's my answer.
Out of the dreams emerges.
The reality of trying to be a betterat realizing
that you will never beprobably the God maybe
where we are from here,but we could be better beings.
I know this song we wrote P.F.
(35:41):
Sloan and I got to bring him up.
It was one of the lines wasit was called Ginger Street,
determined to make each daybetter than the one before.
Just around the corneron the other side of the world.
Somedayour hearts will meet on Ginger Street,
which was the metaphorfor that place in dreams and in life,
where we overcome these hurdlesmay be the ultimate overcoming.
(36:06):
So when I wrote World of Peacewith Brian Wilson,
we really hope to changeconsciousness toward peace.
But at then I hadn't met Dr.
Bail, and if I had had writtenWorld of Peace after,
now I understand World Peaceand after work with Dr.
Bail, I think I might have known
more pragmatic ways to do itrather than just write about it at rallies
(36:26):
and things in the sixties,which was good, but it wasn't
the effect of just complaining about it,but it wasn't.
How do you change yourselfto create the peace?
It wasn't coming from a place of actuallyknowing that inside yourself.
We all wish for that.
Knowing how to live it.
When you start living it,
you can effectively start changing peopleand yourself.
(36:47):
That's my view.
Well, thank you for all of thisfabulous insight.
Really. Was it a good one or Pretty good?
Yeah, I love talking about this.
I love thisand I love these kind of shows.
Everyone's so sweet and wonderful to me.
It's a great experience producing this.
And and again, I just want to say thatand I think Dr.
Bill would say this too,that accessing your unconscious
(37:09):
through your dreams is the way we heal.
As an adjunct to that,we find other ways to release
trauma and trash or express ourselves.
And you have done thatso unbelievably through your painting.
I mean, I look at your paintingsand I just see so much expression
(37:30):
coming out, so much of your unconscious.
That'swhat I see, is that. I think it's true.
I I've done thingsI never could do before.
I've attained levels of happiness humanly.
I've never experiencedeven in love before.
Through the art is an act of love.
Sometimes it is.
It's an act of loving like I love the art,
(37:52):
like a woman or romantic it sensual.
It's everything.
The one thing I learnedand a lot of people I haven't seen, but
I encourage them to take their owncreative
Don't just have themwant to like your work.
This helps me through the dreams.
I realize this and the realitieswhen I encourage others
and see good in them,they start feeling good.
(38:12):
Yes, I think we all need to do thatfor each other.
Yeah, and I think that's good too.
And don't just save it for yourself.
No, and I don't I think you get tothe bottom of this with this work.
You can't help but do that.
It just becomes a natural.
If you get to this point. Yes.
Which is no easy task. No.
But curiosity and venturing forwarda little bit, one step at a time.
(38:35):
I think we all need to do that.
So thank you. Glad you were here.
Thank you so much.
It was a pleasure.
And thank you all for listeningand watching and come back again soon.
I'm so grateful.
Thank you very much. Bye for now.
Bye.
Hi, I'mCynthia Marks, and I head up the Holistic
Psychoanalysis Foundationestablished by my late husband, Dr.
Bernard Bail.
Welcome to and Now love
and welcome to Stephen Kalinich.
Stephen is a marvelous poet,songwriter and painter,
(00:24):
and he seems to handle allwith the same level of passion.
Stephen's imagined Asian thoughtfulnessand wish to continue to grow
are ever present in all facetsof his creative endeavors.
Stephen was a patient of Dr.
Bails for several years.
Through his work with Dr. Bail.
He was able to make great stridesand found himself
(00:46):
living a lifethat could not have otherwise been.
I know that he is very grateful to havehad this precious opportunity with Dr.
Bail, and we are very fortunateto have Stephen here with us today.
He is going to share some of his journey
toward healingand the aftermath of that journey.
(01:06):
Hello. Hello.
Thank you for coming here, my good friend.
You too. Thank you for everything.
So to start off, if you're comfortable,
let us know how you came to find Dr.
Bail.
And what were you searching forin terms of emotional help?
I'm trying to think who the first personthat told me about Dr.
(01:27):
Bail. And it was Dr.
Wiener and I used to go to this bakery,and he would always buy a lot of bakeries.
And he was telling me about the dreams andhe said, You should go to my friend Dr.
Bail. And one day I just did it.
And I went in and that was the beginningof an incredible relationship.
I was pretty I'm a songwriterand a poet, too.
(01:49):
I was pretty stuck,not necessarily in my career,
but just not knowingwhat I was going to do and not feeling
I was getting enough recognitionand things like that.
And with Dr.
Bail, almost immediately,I felt a real connection, really.
He got me to see clearlythat in my own poems
(02:09):
I contained a lot of the answersthat he was talking about
that how some things I got out ofat the first one.
Am I trying to please Steven or myselfor God or my mother?
When I thought of the
the mother relationshipand the mother's signature and all that
or someone else, and how much of your lifeare you really doing? You.
(02:32):
And he unlocked that doormore than anyone.
And I realized there's no barrier at allthere.
And I got a clear insight into it.
When he talked about you not doing you,what did that make you think about?
All the peace poetsand all the things in the world.
If you don't go back to the beginningas far as you can,
(02:55):
and not only does it gobefore birth, and I thought,
if I'm doing things to please my mother,
my friends, whoever it brought up to me,I'm not doing myself
that I have to overcome or notlet that take me off base
and that no matter how much I did of itor how much we talked about world peace,
(03:17):
unless I would go backto the beginning, that
original sin might be just a DNAthat's still before your birth
or something in there that masks,which is really the mother signature,
that mask as here,they say you have all these things.
Your original sin could be the mother'ssignature.
Could beand it could be something like that.
(03:39):
Instead of thinking you could never getbetter that it's before you were born.
And it's even most of them went downto, what, six months to whatever.
My ex-fiancee was a psychologist,a good one.
So I read all her bookthat everyone you know,
I didn't know what I was readingwas wrong.
But Dr. Bail, I felt a clear path.
From the beginning.
(03:59):
Pretty much after a few months.
But what when he got quieter,when he couldn't talk as loud,
he would always say, Go to the source.
And that's before the mother signature.
And by doing that,I have a direct connection.
Whatever that original sin, whatever thatmother's things are, I can break that.
And all great artand all great music comes from a source.
(04:21):
If you don't want to call itGod, call it Spirit,
call it the consciousnessthat moves through all living beings.
So my poetry was informedby a lot of that.
I think all the great composerscome from that.
Now, you don't have to call it Godif you're want to be in it, not whatever,
but whatever that is, is the prime mover
that moves through all livingthings, creatures and through man.
(04:45):
If there's going to be any world peace,it has to come
by going before a mother signaturebecause.
You have to feel a true peace within.
Yeah, well,if you're not, feel the true peace.
As long as you're carryingthe weight of the mother's signature
or that whatever, that deep unconscious,whatever you might want to call it,
that's my view actually.
Let me say it.
(05:06):
He pulled it out of me without pulling.
Which is the is the most fabulous thing.
You had some you can. Rest on your own.
That through my art and music if I don'talways give Steven all the credit.
Well, it's just a big deal
in this town of being a celebrity or thisand that like that.
You're something specialbecause you're a celebrity.
But what he taught me is thateveryone has the potential to be special.
(05:28):
Everyone has a beautiful soulif they get to it.
And they will not be as ABBA rated wars,hatred, killing, all that
come out of a misconceptionof what a self is. Yes.
So a self is a naturally selfish,awful killing
and that's what you need to get had.
A self can be cooperative and help,but we also need principle.
(05:48):
You can't just go along with everything.
You have to stand up for certain things.
And Dr.
Bale, like when he stood up with a lot of
psychiatrists against things,you have to be willing to challenge.
Because when people havesomething established,
especially when it's making money,whether it's a medical system, whatever,
they fightlike hell for nobody to change it.
Even though they say they're open, they
(06:09):
they think it's trueand they don't want change in progress.
They want it to stay because maybe one dayyou won't be the one in control.
Someone else will come upwith something better.
But it's still in service of the self.
Yes, money can be such a motivatorand power can be such a motivator.
But both of those things take us awayfrom who we truly are
(06:31):
and don'tlet us bring our gifts to the world.
We can't help humanity in that way.
Did you find through your work with Dr.
Bale that your poetry, your writing,
let's say you were working on a pieceabout world peace.
Maybe in the past, would you say, Well,
you know,what will my friends think of this?
(06:51):
Or what would my mom say about.
I used to think about that.
But I think with Dr.
Bale, that was when I got the clear sight.
It's okay to want for myselfas long as I want for humanity.
I don't have to stop the selfor become the non self
like in some of the teachings,or burn my body or anything like that
by increasing myself to include
(07:12):
all other beings in one consciousness.
In that moment is where answers may lie.
More answers to the problems of humanity.
And the reason we've never been able to doit is because of that mother Sin
is probably
the greatest problem on the planet,if you want to call it something else.
Aberration, holy sin person, whatever.
(07:34):
Unless we get clearand unless we realize that which I believe
a lot of people don't believe it,but I believe that
there is what I call a goodnessand something
maybe not on the terms as humans think,but that also has principles.
Goodness has principle.
You don't do bad things to people,you don't kill people, things like that.
(07:57):
So we all have that in us.
Yeah, we all have that in us.
And I think that'swhat's holding the world back
since the beginning of time.And I think it's ever been addressed.
And that's what I think.What's special about Dr.
Bale's work for meand I found practical ways
like if I get really angrybecause my ego gets wounded now, I can
(08:17):
breathe
then and say, I don't have toplease anyone I did do wrong there.
I have to, first of all, forgive myselfand then understand if the person doesn't
forgive me.
A lot of people when they don't want tosee me again, a girl or whatever, a woman,
and I used to keep writing to her anyway,but I realize you just let it go.
Life will work it out.
You know, things like that.
(08:38):
That sounds simplistic,
but also to be realisticthat you do have to take steps
like you can't say, I'm just goingto get it to have the good flow into.
You've got to do the work too.
It's a lot. Isn't that true?
Like even in your field or whateveryou're doing, you've got to do the work,
whether it's write the song and be open towhat the universe can move through. You.
And if the less you give yourself credit,I feel Dr.
(09:02):
Bale helped me that I think that's oneof my suits and I don't always have it.
As many people will probably tell you
I'm aware of it.
But to give the credit to grace
to the inner workings of a soul,not somebody out there in the sky,
but something within usthat we haven't unlocked yet.
And if we can unlock that,we have a chance to
(09:24):
to go and overcome a lot of the darkness.
And you've done that. And some of itI've done.
I think it's kind of our life's work.
It is our life work.
And I realized that it wasn't enoughfor me to write the poems and,
you know, get there.
And I have a good ego and feeling good.
I'm good and feel like I'mdoing good for humanity.
But until I can actually live the wordsI write,
(09:47):
till I can live the goodness and kindnessand terms.
When I see all the starving, hungrypeople in the world, it's not simplistic
to want to help people,but I want to help myself too.
But I think that it's hard to getto a point where you can really care
that what you do for othersand ultimately affects you.
I'm having a hard timewith the world situation now.
(10:09):
A lot of people are.
I know no one wants to talk aboutit are very few, but what is the way?
And we do need some kind of a morality,some kind of right or wrong.
We do.
It's not all ethical relativism to me,
but I can't explain it in termsthat everyone can understand.
And it's not all intellectual
where we need to work with our feelings,with yeah.
(10:31):
With our feelings and our emotionsand besides emotions and feelings,
I think there is a some principle
which might be before at the beginning.
In the beginningwas the word that citizens are scriptures.
But if we translate thatfor in the beginning is the word,
not for Christians or Jews or anyone,but just for all beings and all people
(10:55):
that that that is probably where
some of the answers can start to emerge.
But we have to do it out in this worldwe're living.
In, but we have to figure outhow to do that within
in order to be able to do thatwell outside. Yes.
And we have to not only be goodand get applauded for what we do,
we have to really want to have,I think, care for others.
(11:17):
I think humanity.
Well, I think if we can undo the traumaand we can't probably accomplish
all of that in our lifetimes,but the more we do that, the more we I.
Think we all sit on beds of traumathat can explode at any minute.
I think of the people I tried
to stay friends with thatjust tell me anything to do with me.
And Inow I know I breathed that kind of laugh.
(11:40):
I said, my God,
I feel so bad for what I did to them too,to just let go of someone.
You don't needthat I'm even rethinking of.
Maybe, but a lot of peoplewon't like this, but I'm rethinking that.
I don't need to haveeveryone know me on social media.
If the work that I do is good, I will.
I'll be okay.
It feels like I will be anyway.
I know that's a hard position to be in.
(12:02):
What about social media?
Do you not like in terms of your exposureon social media?
It probably could be usedin service of good.
But if I could learn to promote others,
like I want to promote myselfand I realize that there's so much of,
I did this, I wrote for the Beach Boys,I did a duet with Paul McCartney.
Things that I have done,it doesn't make me any stronger or better.
(12:26):
I'm, I'm happy for it, but it's not,
you know, like, whatever it is, there'sno there's no place.
Just do your work
and try to be a good personand and allow others to be good to it.
You don't have to get all the attention.
No, but those relationships do speak
to a certain level of creativitythat you have. Yes.
(12:47):
But when I realize my creativityfrom my viewpoint, I feel that
I'm aided inwardly in a waythat I cannot express in full terms.
When I hear the great poetry teachersand this person is the great
and this person is the great,
I want to learn for myselfwhat resonates, what stirs me.
I see what is your great,what you perceive.
(13:09):
And what do otherbut also allow that other people may have
a different view and try to listen totheirs are not forcing my way on everyone.
Like if it's going to hurta lot of people,
I don't think it's a good thing,but I don't know how to set the parameters
on that.
Well, and there's a lot of thathappening on social media.
Yeah.
So I want to be more carefuland more thoughtful and I try to want
(13:30):
to not make people feel belittledor that I'm more important.
Can you talk a little bit about howthe process worked for you in Dr.
Bales office?
Did he take some time getting to know you?
Did he come toyou asking for dreams right away.
Through the dreams as well? How?
I brought up the images about the art.
(13:52):
I should have said that first.
First, as we explored the dreams.
And he would tell methere's light in that dream.
Or when my painting was really darkand light was emerging
and he saw an orange or a yellowcoming through a black.
It's like I was dreaming these paintingssometime.
And by me wanting to dive into colors.
(14:14):
So instead of just the wordsworld of peace,
I was starting seeing orangesand yellows and blacks
and how much I had all the colorsand which ones can express and which ones.
And what about whydo they always have to look like a person?
Why can't they be shapedlike the galaxies?
Or why can'twhy does art have to be that perfect?
Like a perfect?Why can't it just be what it is?
(14:37):
How children dowhen they put a hodgepodge of clay
or like that,allowing that part of creativity?
There's a destructive partthat can come by, like not limiting people
in any directioneither, You know, I'll go, honey, explode
with those and your kid blows upyour house or something like that.
I don't condone that.
(14:58):
Thank you.
But I'm being funny.
But you know what I mean. Yeah.
When you would come to talk aboutthe colors you were seeing in your dreams,
would Dr. Bails say so?
Tell me,
when you think about the color yellow,what does that bring to mind for you?
He didn't talk that way with me.
He would, like, try and get more from me.
(15:18):
And then it came to the pointwhere it almost was.
He almost said, It's spirit,something to that effect.
When you get to the pointwhere you're turning it to this
invisible creative forcethat moves through all beings
and not just think the paintersand the composers are the creative alone,
but that all humanshave this creative spark.
(15:41):
He opened up that for me.
So it could be the dishwasher,it could be the thing.
And not to put yourself because you'reextra creative in a special category.
At least I got that.
And also you could bring out your ownunique gifts because all those people
have some kind of gifts. Like today.
I'm just going to bring it up.
But this makeup girl you had for me,she was so lovely.
(16:05):
And the way she was kind,
not pretentious,it was just like a very creative feeling.
So it comes from all placeswhen you try to be open to it. Yes.
And she's so thrilled and happy about whatshe's doing.
She's passionate about it. Yeah.
So but tell mea little bit more about the process.
So the process waswe started the session maybe,
(16:28):
and I would start talking about my dreams.
And did you write your dreams down?
I wrote a lot of them down.Not all of them.
I wrote a lot of them down.
But I had dreams.
I mean, I had dreamswhen I would be writing in the car
and I'd go off the road in Malibu,
and then I'd be driving into the waterand it was a dead end road.
And sometimeI was with my first wife, ex-wife.
(16:50):
And sometimes I was aloneand I was going to drown.
And I had a lot of those kind of dreamsfor a while,
and I couldn't stay on a road.
And I had dreams where I was flyingwhen I was cruising through the universe.
And then sometime I combine itwith when I did go to New Zealand
and landed on the SwissAlps and almost fell through the ice,
the pilot of the helicopter said,You can't go there without me.
(17:13):
You could fall down something.I could never get you out.
The Alps and in New Zealand.
Is this reality or dream?
It was both, but that was reality.
But that fueled some of the dreamsand was like in.
Pretty potent and scary. Yeah.
And when I was in Hungaryat the the big museums
and on the water in Venice, Italy,and walking across the canals,
(17:34):
how much of it was a dream,I walked the streets of Venice.
In my mind,I've got to get that poem out again.
And I would I'd live it.
And I met the everyday people on the LidoSenior is retired
and I met the people everyday that will gowith flowers to their husband's grave
and Little Island, Italy and Hungary.
There were peoplewith babies at the airport
(17:56):
or at the train stationand they tried to get money.
But then I found out latersome of them would take the babies
from their friends in the day and use themand they would split them.
Not that that's if that's a survival,but I mean, there's
just all kinds of things that I opened upto that living in America.
I did a song called StevieNobody Wants, and I said,
(18:16):
My name is Steven, but I'm not StevenSpielberg, you know, But I live in America
apartment, see, like thejust the everyday American experience.
But when I matched it with travelingand going in, really in the dreams,
it all became part of the journey.
And sometimes they would mix up.
And that makes. Sense.
But by being just awarethat I might be living
(18:39):
what you what my mother wanted for me,the mother's signature.
It might have beenmy grandmother might have been before her
and might be back to the beginning ofwhen my in my part started.
Among the genetic all those things thatare alive in this consciousness somewhere.
And maybe that's what original sin is.
I'm the one I think I thought of that,but maybe he thought of it.
I don't know.
But I just came to meso asked questions about that.
(19:01):
So the dreams helped me.
I have more clarity now.
Like sometime I make a lot of typosafter I had a stroke.
And so I do.
And I know my grammar is not perfect,but I think to get the poetic thought
and the thought can uplift humanity out,try to get it as clear as you can.
And that's the important thing.
I think it's important to learn thatthe technical parts, but the main thing is
(19:23):
to get your God energy, your grace energy,
your creative to get that flowing.
And I think Dr.
Bale, by unmasking some of these dreams.
Whatever your endeavor.
Whatever your endeavorsand what's holding you back,
what in your dreams is holding you back,what are you afraid of?
What's the fear?
What's the fear of death?
(19:44):
And did he ask youthose kinds of questions?
Yeah,we talked about everything like that.
But as he got older, the more he came
to a quietness to realize
that I must look to that kind of Godenergy or grace energy.
He didn't call it that.So I don't want to misrepresent.
But I think what he said is a lot like Ithink it's what you said in your podcast.
(20:06):
And I think to get to love loving this,not for to gain
love back, but the flow of love,that is what can heal.
Nations can heal wounds.
And are we thousands of years awayor are we ever.
But I think that's the directionfor the world.
Someday. It's the only way to go.
It's the only way.
And I think that all the nationsare all off a little.
(20:30):
Well,I think I think the world is off where.
I think where as long as you wantto create these kind of enemies,
rather than look for wayswe can get along and doesn't
have to be bad for a lot of people.
No, but we just don't knowhow to work from love we're working for.
Yeah, fear and our in.
And jealousy and greed sometimesjust wanting and there are people
(20:53):
however they've got congestedin their consciousness.
I'm using my termthat are not for everyone.
And you also when you're going out there,
you have to don't think everyone'spotentially good on this existence.
I'm not saying overalland like some spiritual namby pamby world,
but in the real world,there's some hard assets out there
(21:14):
that are out to make sure you don't getthat promotion or that are jealous at work
because you got to thinkthat you did something good.
They don't like it.
They get envious of you. It'snot your fault.
But and so if you're in a placewhere you understand your true self,
when you come across those people,you know
sort of what to do with themin terms of your own well-being.
Yeah.
And you learn sometimes silenceto not engage a person like that.
(21:38):
If you can avoid it.
And you can't fix everyone.
And you can't fix everyone, but in otherwords, there's a harshness to a teaching.
Ah, not a harshness, buta hardness of firmness is a better word.
You must be firm in your moral content.
This is this is right.
So, for example, what would he have sharedwith you that would show that firmness.
(22:00):
By blaming someone elsefor something that you've done yourself?
I see. And he would sort of bring that up.
Here's the thing that happened.
This is how it really. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And also me realizingthat maybe I overdid do it.
But some of peoplejust want to get rid of me as a friend.
Or maybe I did try to fix some peopledon't want to be fixed that way
(22:20):
and then maybe they're just not clickwith you, right?
And you.
And when you're trying to impress people,eventually somebody will call you.
There's no.
But when you understand your worthon your own personal level.
Yeah.
And you don't needthe payoff of social media
or the press are being famous.
You, you feel good and contentwithin yourself for what life you do have.
(22:42):
And if all of that.
That's what Dr. Bale works toward with me.
Does that make. Sense?
It makes sense.
So what do you do now without him?
I try to work it as best he brought mealong enough that I'm trying to work it
as I can, and one by oneI can feel like even a block in your body
because you store it in your body traumas,you still store it somewhere.
(23:06):
But I'mif you love enough and long enough,
if you're learned stillnessenough to be loving stillness
not just still like a meditation alone,but to have.
I know people say don't use an intentbut a loving ness toward yourself.
You can un class and that willsometimes release pain out of your body.
You may need help of a therapistlike I did with him,
(23:28):
or you may need a doctor to stitchyou up, but you can.
That's the paththat I find closer for healing.
So you can use this methodto potentially cure physical pain.
For myself. Potentially.
But have I mastered it?
Was I circlealmost by the end of the year?
Yes, butI'm staying with that kind of process.
(23:49):
I'm trying not to deviateor be angry at life because I'm sick.
I just don't see any pointin that anymore.
But some time I feel like it,but I try to resist that.
And you recovered?
Yeah. And Dr.
Bails is not only was good in that way,but it was a very pragmatic way
to live with that, knowing thatunless you do,
your trauma is going to stay alive andactive in your experience in your body,
(24:14):
and you'll probably never overcome itthe rest of your life
and you'll die with it.
I mean, that's a hard one.
So you're dying with the same mothersend that you were born with,
maybe a little modified and you'repassing it on to your kids and on and on.
Until someday we get that break.
Maybe that's all I'll say.Let's cut from that.
I think there's a potentialfor a healing of a consciousness.
(24:35):
And I think he was on to somethingthat I don't think
they even grasp it totallywhat what he was ending at.
That's what I got out of that.
Yeah, well, and we need more peopleto understand this in practice.
Via his methodology.
Practicing the methodologyand practicing living, loving kindness.
Yeah, that's the base in.
Practical terms, for humanityand not just for yourself.
(24:57):
Do you still pay attention to your dreams?
Yeah, I probably could pay more attention,but I'd.
My dreams have been different,and I'm having a harder time
dreaming and sleeping now,so I do still listen to them.
So if you do remembera dream, do you think?
What does that mean?
What can I look to in that dreamthat's going to give me a key?
(25:21):
There's something that my unconsciouswants me to know.
Can you do some of that on your own?
Yes, I can.
And also, I can tell in a dream sometime
that I'm blockingthat something in me is blocking it.
And if I can pinpoint that time,I can get that body part to calm down.
It might evenit might even do it as simple as saying
(25:42):
don't eat cherries at night,but only eat six or seven of them.
But don't eat pineapple at night becauseyou're either going to get acid reflux.
I mean, that soundsthat's a of out of a dream.
I can get that now.
No, that's kind of weird,but that's great.
I have a hard time sleeping still.
I wish it was here because I'd like to getthrough this sleeping thing,
(26:03):
so I haven't been perfect on it,but I'm using it as best I can.
Well, we were talking in another episodewith Dr.
Lauren Weiner,and we were discussing a patient's dreams,
and she was sharing thatin this patient's dream.
She wasn't allowed to speak.
She discovered that via this methodor that method, she was being shut down.
And in her real world,she had a terrible sore throat.
(26:27):
Her inability to speak her imprint,
you are not to speak,was presenting itself physically.
And I still I think that's pretty amazing.
That and it seems so simple,but yet it's really complicated
for all of us to get to a placewhere we feel comfortable
knowing that our feelingsand our physical are attached.
(26:50):
And they are.
And what you what you were sayingin the beginning when we talked,
the trauma is alive in there,but it also not just in your mind
and thing as a physical form,but some element of physical, mental combo
tied together is time as a massin your body, not just as a thought.
(27:10):
And that's what the realize that that'swhy you have to address it.
You can't just think it awaybecause you got to go back
and release that experience.
So from my experience,
it doesn't seem to automatic for notfrom what I've gathered so far.
No. And a lot of us, you know,we can treat some amount of illness.
And sometimes you need help from someone.You do.
(27:31):
Yeah. Yeah.
And I'd like to find.
But I haven't met anyone else like that.
Even the ones that study like that,they're good, but not.
It's not the same.
So I don't know if I'll ever have another.
So I have to work with what I knowand try to.
And I'm still listening for the dreams.
Every nightI watch them and I sometime write.
I try to write a lot of them down.
(27:51):
And then you go back and review them.
Yeah, I go back and review
and then the same dream will comeand another door will open.
I didn't try that door.That's great. Yeah.
And as you work through dreams,your dreams change and they lead you,
as you're suggesting, to a new dreamor a different dream, a different door.
Yeah.
What I was surprised is,even though I'm write these poems
(28:15):
and there's a lot of light, how muchdarkness I still have within myself.
I think if you can facethat, it's helps you a lot.
So how do you see that?
Or how do you.
Know when I feel a real anger, fearor a hatred? Why?
Or if I'm envious of that, you got a breakthat I didn't and I won't tell anyone.
I pretend like I'm not.
I could feel that.
(28:36):
And then the dreams I feel more.
But like you got the break that I wanted,you know, like you didn't deserve it.
I'm smarter than you. We.
I don't know if you ever had feelingslike that, but I do.
Sometime I try to do them less, and thenI realize they're wrong now, at least.
So that's a good sign, isn't it?
And I realize those people.I don't go back to them anymore.
I just let it go. Yeah, so you.
(28:56):
But you can stop yourself and think,
Wait a minute,This isn't the me, the loving me.
Yeah. And also,I used to write him a note or something.
I'm sorry if I. But.But now I just let it go.
I mean, that's my way.I'm not saying everyone.
And then if they come back, they do.
And most of the time they don't.
And that's okay.
It's okay. You got to move on. Yeah.
You can't please every personin this life, in this dimension.
(29:18):
There's still a lot of sadness.
There is through this work with Bernard.
You came to understandall of this about yourself.
I came to understand much more of it. Yes.
And I never had an experience like himeither.
Me neither.
I had great doctors, great people.
But there was something differentabout him, that quietness he got.
(29:39):
And you know that at the end.
Well, it was hard for him to speak.
And so what he had to sayhad to be pretty pointed.
He needed to use his words wisely.
So also, through your work,I think with Dr.
Bail, you came to a place of paintingthese fabulous paintings.
Yeah. With him I opened up more.
(29:59):
He loved my paintingand even that one that you guys couldn't
hang the black one with the thing.
He liked that, but he liked that I'm usingthat fire of energy against the darkness
that I'm. I'm breaking through.
He really enjoyed.
He could see interpretit more than just as the painting.
And what about you?
What does the painting do for you?
Each one is different, butI find certain things opening up in it.
(30:21):
Everything doesn't have to be a face,doesn't have to be defined.
But sometimes you want one.
Sometimesit doesn't have to be a good face.
It just has to be convey an emotion.
Well, I think your painting is fabulous,I feel like.
And you'll tell me that you are
really letting your unconscious speak.
I really feel that I am.
(30:42):
And I thinkwhen I really let go in my spoken
like I wrote a poem about the ocean,but instead of romanticizing it,
like a lot of people, I realize the oceanknows nothing about human kindness.
It is ruthlessly itself.
When it comes, a wavecomes, it's not going to stop.
that man's there.
It doesn't have that.
It's on a largeror a different scale than humans.
(31:04):
And the recognition of that,I think, is very positive
because you know where you shouldn't treadmaybe in this life,
if you really tune in to your dreams,you will know I shouldn't
go that rocky precipice because I couldfall into the water and be gone forever.
It gives you some survival on this planet.
Navigation skills.
(31:25):
And you can apply those sorts of feelingsto relationships with other people.
And relationshipsto maybe this relationship.
One of my relationshipsI should have never gone in, but I did.
But if I was with Dr.
Baily, I might have known.
I love her like that,but it's not worth my sexual
my other feelings to gowhere I'm where I'm in a tornado.
(31:45):
I'm in a hurricane of consciousnessthat I don't know how to get out of it.
It'd be like knowing the arc,the waters coming,
you're going to either drownor you're on the ark.
And then if you don't like it on the ark,what are you going to do
till you get to land?
And then you're going to mess up again?
So in that relationship that you were in,
where you ultimately realizedit wasn't healthy for you.
It was too late for her.
(32:07):
But for me, I was okay.
But I got through it.
But it was so many woundsI couldn't even tell you.
Maybe even made me impotent.
I made more problems.
I had all kind of problems.
And I, partly by not addressing it
or not seeing it for what it wasor thinking, everybody's good.
That's somethingyou got to watch, that is. Yeah.
(32:28):
So describe that a little bit.
Thinking everybody's good.
And I think.
That everybody's reallyas not sorted out to be a really
when I say good I mean I'mnot that they're awful evil people,
but they're mostly still in a survivalfor themselves
and it's hard for them to have enoughto think of others and humanity.
And I don't even mean it sometimesit's just they do not know.
(32:51):
They don't.
They don't know.
But it is difficult for people to processdoing good for others sometimes.
Yeah, because that means a cost to them.
And the one thing that Dr.
Bail taught meis that it's good to give to others
and not just to take for yourself.
You have to be willingto let go of something
(33:13):
maybe that you wanted for a higher good.
Well, I think that's part of our truehuman experience, is to be able to give.
If you've gotten rid of the trash,then it's sort of a natural occurrence.
You just automatically give to the restof humanity because you're coming from it.
And I want to tryand give more to people in my way
(33:35):
with less selfishnessand knowing I'll never do it.
All that is my legacy.
And I think he helped me a lot in that,or to try and be a good person.
There's a lot of people say, I'man egomaniac.
I might have elements of that,but I try to face the darkness.
And one thing that I learned,I wrote a song with P.F.
Sloan called Embrace the Darkness.
(33:55):
P.F. Sloan wrote Eve of Destruction,Secret Asian Man, lot of song.
He's deceased now, a wonderful writer.
But in that we embraced the darknessbecause from the darkness,
we can learn the lightand from the dreams.
A lot of the darkness will emergeif you open up and don't block them.
So the darkness represents reallythe parts of ourselves that we're afraid.
(34:16):
Probably, yeah, that we're afraidto explore and that we're afraid to face.
And that unaddressed traumas could be
the storms and oceans of our consciousnessthat look like thunder and lightning
and clouds and irresistiblethat you can never get out of the vortex.
The black holes of existencethat seems no tunnel out like some
(34:38):
some of the world situation. Now.
One thing that a few people have said,and I felt this myself, is that
when you're going through this processand you're discovering
what your trauma isor parts of your imprint,
you almost step back like, Wow,that's a big discovery.
I realize I'm not to be loved.
(34:59):
I know that.
And now that I know that I can operatefrom knowing that
all of the trash that was held in that
container has been released or some of ithas, How do you fill in the spaces?
I mean, how do you dealwith this different existence
now that you get a glimpse of the factthat that's not true?
(35:20):
You put it by living more kind of actstoward more people.
That's my answer.
Out of the dreams emerges.
The reality of trying to be a betterat realizing
that you will never beprobably the God maybe
where we are from here,but we could be better beings.
I know this song we wrote P.F.
(35:41):
Sloan and I got to bring him up.
It was one of the lines wasit was called Ginger Street,
determined to make each daybetter than the one before.
Just around the corneron the other side of the world.
Somedayour hearts will meet on Ginger Street,
which was the metaphorfor that place in dreams and in life,
where we overcome these hurdlesmay be the ultimate overcoming.
(36:06):
So when I wrote World of Peacewith Brian Wilson,
we really hope to changeconsciousness toward peace.
But at then I hadn't met Dr.
Bail, and if I had had writtenWorld of Peace after,
now I understand World Peaceand after work with Dr.
Bail, I think I might have known
more pragmatic ways to do itrather than just write about it at rallies
(36:26):
and things in the sixties,which was good, but it wasn't
the effect of just complaining about it,but it wasn't.
How do you change yourselfto create the peace?
It wasn't coming from a place of actuallyknowing that inside yourself.
We all wish for that.
Knowing how to live it.
When you start living it,
you can effectively start changing peopleand yourself.
(36:47):
That's my view.
Well, thank you for all of thisfabulous insight.
Really. Was it a good one or Pretty good?
Yeah, I love talking about this.
I love thisand I love these kind of shows.
Everyone's so sweet and wonderful to me.
It's a great experience producing this.
And and again, I just want to say thatand I think Dr.
Bill would say this too,that accessing your unconscious
(37:09):
through your dreams is the way we heal.
As an adjunct to that,we find other ways to release
trauma and trash or express ourselves.
And you have done thatso unbelievably through your painting.
I mean, I look at your paintingsand I just see so much expression
(37:30):
coming out, so much of your unconscious.
That'swhat I see, is that. I think it's true.
I I've done thingsI never could do before.
I've attained levels of happiness humanly.
I've never experiencedeven in love before.
Through the art is an act of love.
Sometimes it is.
It's an act of loving like I love the art,
(37:52):
like a woman or romantic it sensual.
It's everything.
The one thing I learnedand a lot of people I haven't seen, but
I encourage them to take their owncreative
Don't just have themwant to like your work.
This helps me through the dreams.
I realize this and the realitieswhen I encourage others
and see good in them,they start feeling good.
(38:12):
Yes, I think we all need to do thatfor each other.
Yeah, and I think that's good too.
And don't just save it for yourself.
No, and I don't I think you get tothe bottom of this with this work.
You can't help but do that.
It just becomes a natural.
If you get to this point. Yes.
Which is no easy task. No.
But curiosity and venturing forwarda little bit, one step at a time.
(38:35):
I think we all need to do that.
So thank you. Glad you were here.
Thank you so much.
It was a pleasure.
And thank you all for listeningand watching and come back again soon.
I'm so grateful.
Thank you very much. Bye for now.
Bye.
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