February 27, 2025 • 66 mins
In this profound episode of And Now, Love, Cynthia Marks and Dr. Loren Weiner recap on Dr. Bernard Bail's revolutionary psychoanalytic theory, emphasizing how early imprints from the womb shape our lives. They discuss how the unconscious mind, formed through inherited trauma and maternal imprints, influences self-perception, relationships, and personal fulfillment. Through dream analysis, Dr. Weiner explains how these unconscious patterns can be uncovered and dismantled, freeing individuals from self-sabotage and emotional pain. The conversation highlights the importance of reclaiming one’s true self, unburdened by inherited negativity, to achieve genuine love, purpose, and inner peace. This episode offers hope for personal transformation and societal healing, emphasizing how individual growth can lead to a more compassionate world.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:04):
Hi, I'm Cynthia Marks.
I head up the HolisticPsychoanalysis Foundation
established by my latehusband, Doctor Bernard Bail.
Welcome to And Now Love.
We have Doctor Loren Wiener with us today.
Her psychologypractice is based on the teachings
(00:25):
of my favorite Doctor Bail, whomshe's followed for many years, many years.
Today we are going to talk broadlyabout Doctor Bail's incredible theory
and how it can help us to liveour best lives,
to be our best bit of humanity.
And lucky for us, Loren is our expert.
(00:48):
Thank you, as always,for being so willing to share with us.
So really, we kind of wanted
to go back to the beginningbecause we have our fabulous
audience, plus new peoplecoming to listen to us and watch us.
And we just need a little refresherfor those of us
who have been paying attentionso far, and a pretty good description
(01:11):
of what we're doing for our new visitors.
So tell us, what is this all about?
Okay, well, thank you for having me.
I'm glad to be back.
Welcome to everybody new and old.
Doctor Bail was a psychoanalystand he trained in
what was the normal way then,which was basically a Freudian paradigm.
(01:33):
And he learned this.
And what it really brought out for himwas a love of dreams.
And Freud had a great love of dreams.
He feltit was the royal road to the unconscious.
And Bail fell in love, basically.
He went on to have a Freudian analysis,
which means he brought his dreams tosomebody and talked about them.
(01:56):
He also then, as times were changing,
had, a bony an analysis with another
very well-known theorist. Yes.
And I, from what he discussed with me,
those experiences were extremely valuable.
And he, of course,respected those individuals.
(02:16):
But I think he felt likehe had to go through that experience
in order to realize that experi wasn'tenough.
Like, these are great conversations.
I'm learning so much that we have thesefabulous intellectual back and forth,
but yet there's still this thingthat's not.
(02:36):
I think he felt he wasn't changed enough.
Yeah. So he has a love of the dream.
You know,he came out of his psychoanalysis training
and his own analysis,and he loved the dream.
And so he would ask for dreamsand his patients would comply,
you know, they would bring him dreams.
And so over time, he would shift fromperhaps
making,you know, more traditional interpretations
(03:00):
to starting to say to his patientswhat he was starting to hear.
Oh, I think that isyour mother in the dream,
and you must be a baby, right.
And and he started to shift.
Now, it isn't that nobody everthought people were infantile, right?
But this was really himstarting to talk about the beginnings
of what he would really come towrite about is this very lasting imprint,
(03:29):
right way in which we relate
to emotionally connectto the people that give birth to us.
What he came to seewas that mothers actually imprint
their children,meaning mothers carry their own,
unprocessed, not understood, painful,
(03:52):
sometimes conscious, but most importantly,unconscious material.
We are all walking around withboth a conscious and unconscious mind,
and so the unconscious mindbecomes this receptacle,
if you will, for everythingthat happens to us in our life.
And you get enough of the painful
(04:13):
things, right,because the good things help us.
They don't need to be examined. Yes.
I mean, we can examine them.
They, you know, we'd like to,but it's really
the things that get in our way,the destructive forces
that we want to focuson, analyze and be looking for.
You want to hunt those down.
And so mothers don't knowthey're carrying all of this.
(04:36):
Even if they do, it's unconscious.
There's not much you can do about it.
But what happens is that this
nascent being, this concept,this fetus infant,
comes into being inside this mother
and becomes the receiver of all of thisnegative material.
(04:59):
And that's not intentional.
Harm, not intentional at all.
But it happens.
And Bail felt that it happensbecause the fetus or infant,
you know,after birth can feel very sensitive,
can feelthat the mother is beset with troubles.
(05:19):
Now, if your mother has troubles,
your survival might be compromised, right?
You need a really healthy, good motherwho is going to attach to you,
love you, feed you,not forget you somewhere, and not be too
depressed to get out of bedand make sure you're okay.
You need mom to be in pretty goodcondition, but this baby detects,
(05:41):
because of its enormous sensitivity,that everything is not right.
What does it do?
Well,it sets out with a rather Herculean task.
Also unconscious. Right.
So we've got the two deepestparts of people, the unconscious pieces.
Now in communication in the baby says,well, mom, you have too much trouble.
(06:02):
Don't worry, I'll take it.
I'll hold this.
Then you'll be relieved.
And if you're relieved
of all your troubles, you should be happyand able to take care of me.
I live, we're good.
This is the only way I can surviveis to help you.
That's right. And all of this is happeningin the unconscious.
This is all unconscious.
So we may imagine.
Oh, what's goingon? Oh, you got a little morning sickness.
(06:25):
The baby's growing and floating around.
Okay, that is the tip of the icebergof what is really happening.
That unconsciouslythere is just this enormous contact.
So this baby does this.
Okay, so now we've got a baby holdingwhat you can imagine is like a toxic
ball of bad feelingsthe mother has about herself.
(06:46):
All the ways in which she is not good,in which she feels
unloved, in which she doesn't feelthings were fair.
Maybe the ways in which women aren'tallowed to have a seat at the table
aren't allowed to decideall kinds of things for themselves,
or get paid as much, any,any way in which you can imagine
somebody, you know, they were beaten,they were cheated
(07:08):
on, they weren't loved themselves,you name it, it's in this ball.
Just to pick that apart a little bit.
Just let's saytake the part where mom feels unloved.
Of course.
Then if she feels unloved, howis this baby going to feel love from her?
So this fetus then says,
I don't want you to feel unloved,so I'm going to feel unloved myself.
(07:32):
Is that kind of it? Yes, I think it is.
It is probably on such a feeling level.
But yes, fundamentally that'swhat happens.
The baby looks and goes,oh my God, you're in danger.
You have a toxic ball.
It might take you out and I need you.
I need to survive, so I'll hold it.
(07:52):
In reality,there's no difference being made.
There's no difference being made.
This is all psychological and really, it's
a fantasy on the fetus's partthat the fetus could in any way
really change the motherby holding on to this.
But that doesn't mean all of the feelings
(08:16):
that go along with all thataren't taken into the baby.
They're taken in.
Now, this baby has this toxic balland it has to do something with it.
So it was it off says, okay, you know,you can imagine like an oyster
gets a bit of sand and it's an irritant.
This is more than an irritant,but you get the idea.
And it starts to put layersand layers of pearl around it, protect it.
(08:40):
Now I don't know there's any sand thereand it's all fine.
And I have this beautiful pearl.
So it's almost like you've made it. Okay.
Yeah, you've. You've made it okay.
But unlike an oyster,what you've had to do is split your mind.
Now imagineyou've got a bedroom in your house
that you've put stuff in.
(09:00):
Shut the door.
Maybe you've drywall it over the door.
Nobody even knowsthere's a door there anymore.
Except it's not quiet.
It doesn't sit hidden silently.
It is now sending messages.
Oh, you're unloved.
You're bad.
You can't dowhat you want to do in your life.
Nobody liked you anyway. You're ugly.
You're unlovable.
(09:21):
You're mean. Is it because we're trying
to keep something trappedthat's really not trackable?
Yeah, that.
It's just got to try to get its way out.
Yeah. It is.
It is so energized that it can't reallybe contained that way.
But, you know, a fetus tries thisand this is all what has to happen
for survival.
(09:41):
And so we are looking not just at the wayanimals survive in the jungle.
We're looking at the waythese animals, humans,
because they have this unconscious piecewhich we're supposed to have, we need,
but it also has brought us this trouble
that we have to understandand we have to get in contact with.
We have to go find the room,hear the messages and start addressing
(10:06):
them and start saying to the nowgrown person who is talking to you,
listen, when you were a baby,here are some of the messages
that you receive that you have been livingwith as though they are you.
But I want to say now that's not true.
That didn't happen, right?
I mean, we all want to say, no, I don't.
(10:27):
There's that's way too scary.
I don't want to open that door.
Yes, we have that. Certainly.
Who wants to go back?
And when you get thisball of toxic material, this isn't like
a gentle delivery, right?
You will see dreams of peoplewho are in the process of getting this.
You will see dreams where peopleare hit in the head with boards.
(10:48):
Baseballs are thrownhard at the head, jumping off of something
high and cracking the headon a concrete sidewalk.
You will see actually in people'sdreams, a detail of everything,
a detail of an imprint,a detail of their life,
a detail of their emotional truth.
And Bail felt that what you really wantto get to for people
(11:10):
and the dream is the vehicle.
You know, he's going to carry over thislove of the dream.
And what he found was, oh, it contains
so much more than they ever taught me.
So as he listened,the dream just became the focus
because it was so rich with all of thefeelings, all of the experiences,
(11:31):
all of the emotional truthsthat everybody had been through.
And he found thatthere was this commonality, really,
when people were sharing their dreamswith him over the course of time,
he discovered that it all led backto this mother's imprint.
That's right. So he listened.
You know, I think he was very goodat sort of saying, I have an idea.
(11:52):
Now, let me listen.
Let me do my best to listen and seewhether the data supports the hypothesis.
Trying right not to go the other waywhere you just make
every one of your patientsfit into a theory.
I think he felthe had tried to do that and it didn't.
That didn't feel right for him.
You get all of this happening.
(12:13):
He very early on. So we are talking now.
He has said maybe even before conception,because in his mind
we have all made agreements that we aregoing to come do this together.
So the relationship is already chosenbefore somebody gets here.
So what do you mean by that?We've made agreements before.
We he felt that, you know,we all come from source.
(12:35):
And so if you come down to earthto live this life,
you have come with a certain agreement,certain curriculum,
certainthings that you are going to work on here.
In other words, a reason for your soulto incarnate in this lifetime.
And your soul makes a choice. Yes.
And for example, what would a choice be?
(12:57):
Well, it would be anything.It would be to be me.
It would be to be you.
It would be to come into the world
and have a certain set of conditionsthat are necessary to learn.
Pick any personwalking around on the planet.
He would say, okay,those were the conditions you chose.
Now, a lot of times people say,but I don't like that idea
because I don't like what I chose.
(13:19):
Understand, you know,I have great compassion for that.
That doesn't mean you didn't choose it.
Right.
So what we have to then do isget an understanding of why you did
and what we will turn to is your dreams.
So the dreams are going to bethe repository of all
of those reasons and choices.
And the way we're going to see themis you're going to tell me
(13:41):
what was the emotional experiencelike in my life?
What did it feel like growing up?
You know, didI feel loved that I feel hate?
Was I beaten, was I adored all of it.
And as I said, most of the time, what,because we live in an imperfect place
most of the time,it is the things that hurt us,
(14:03):
that didn't see our true self,that didn't support
us, that neglected us, where we couldn'tconnect, where we felt misunderstood,
maybe where we were even overtly abused.
Those are the piecesthat show up in the dream
that have to be understoodby the person listening.
(14:23):
You have to find them, see them.
You have to make an interpretation
that says, oh, hereyou're talking about this feeling,
and you do this in a back and forthso you could tell me a dream.
And then we talk about your dream.
We just have a conversation.I get to ask you questions.
Tell me what comes to mindwhen you tell me the dream.
Tell me what this part of your dreammakes you think about.
(14:45):
Tell me what you think about that piece.
And I'm listening as your unconscious.
Right.
So your deepest selfis now going to bring ideas forward
and you might resist some,but you're going to tell me a story.
Just so we're clear.
Really, what is the differencebetween our conscious and our unconscious.
(15:05):
One we're aware of and one we're not?
So the unconscious is vast.
Think size of the universe.
And that knowing of the unconscious is
is typical in the world of analysis.
Yes. That there is a beliefthat there is an unconscious. Yes.
And that's a big piecethat a lot of people don't aren't
(15:27):
familiar with, but is imperativefor us to know, Bail felt.
I mean, it was imperative for him.
It was the place where everything happens.
We think that the world is our conscious,waking life,
and that is a tip of the iceberg pieceof what's really going on.
(15:49):
And then you have the vastnessof the unconscious
that sits below, sits below the surface.
But it is what drives everything.
And I understandthat's really hard to buy into.
Yeah, it'snothing but elusive to most of us.
And how could there be anything beyondeverything
we come across in our physical world?
(16:13):
I mean, there's there's no roomfor anything else, it seems.
Right?
Well, if you listen to people talk
and you also really spend timelistening to
dreams, you would be very easily
convinced that there's a whole worldpeople know nothing about.
But it drives everything.
And people come to see this very quickly.
(16:34):
You can see connections between dreamsand how you're feeling
and how you are carryingthese very early relationships.
Right.
So our earliest caregiversset the template
for all of our relationshipsin the field of mental health.
Pretty agreed upon.
(16:55):
Bail is going to go a step furtherand say, actually, what happens in utero
is what sets the stage for everything.
And all of this human life we're walkingaround in is really just a repeat,
a recreationof what we experienced in the womb.
So what he meant by that waswe are so bombarded with all of these
(17:19):
negative parts of our caregiversbecause yes, you are in the mother, so
of course you get the mother's full blast,but also whomever is around her, right?
She is sweepingin the unconscious of the father
and maybe of other peoplewho are important to her.
Those are all swept into.
(17:40):
So, you know, we like to think of timein the womb as this bucolic.
Yes, lovely.
It is, not it?
It ismore akin to being in a haunted house
where things are jumping out at youconstantly, where you are.
Oh, this feeling, it came at me and that,oh, and that feeling.
(18:00):
And and I'm confronted with the factthat my mother doesn't even feel like
she can tackle any of this.
And how is she going to be a motherand you name it.
Right?
So now what is helping to help us?
Not all come out, you know, completelya basket case is that. Yes.
Hopefullythere are enough good feelings as well,
(18:21):
but there aren't enough of thoseat this point in our evolution
to stop us from having an imprint,from having these negative feelings
and passingthose on to the next generation.
And that has to be known about.
Bail feltthat was just the crux of everything is
that you have to know this is happening,and you have to know that the only way
(18:46):
to fix that in yourself, so
you are not walking aroundcompletely filled
with all of these negative feelingsabout yourself and then recreating
situations, recreating situationsthat will support that.
Because that's how you survive.
That was how you survived.
(19:07):
And that's how you continue to survive.
You don't know any different.You don't know any different.
You don't know it isn't you. Yes.
You don't know. It isn't you.
And the knowing of youwhen you get there is incredible.
It's just incredible.
And this is such an importantpart of us moving forward.
(19:27):
And so few of us have access
to real therapy of this sort.
So few we need to be ableto figure out a way to share this message,
because it's the only waywe can move forward in our world.
Yeah, I think that was his hope.
I mean, you know,his hope was obviously he's
(19:48):
going to work with each patientthat comes into his office.
But his real hope was that, oh, okay.
What will happen eventually is enough.
People will understandthat I have an unconscious.
In order to survive, I felt I had to take
in all of my mother's toxic feelings.
I walled them off so I've been livingas though they're mine.
(20:09):
I now have a chance to realize, oh,wait a minute, maybe I'm not unlovable.
Horrible.
Not to be successful,not to live, not to enjoy happiness.
Not to find true love, not to succeed.
Whatever it is,I can now start to look at my dreams
for kind, where all of these messageshave embedded themselves in my daily life
(20:32):
and piece by piece, pull them out
to get back to my true self
before this invasion happened.
And what we're wanting is to try to helppeople know that there is a self.
Before all of that happened,there is a whole beautiful self,
(20:53):
and that self is what we want to get to,to help change the world.
That self comes with purpose.
That doesn't have obviously anything to dowith that little package of trauma.
Okay, so that's a slightly complex answerbecause yes,
that trauma was not innate to that being.
Now the question, of course, isdid we make an agreement to come down,
(21:15):
get this packet of trauma, becausethat was going to set the curriculum,
that was going to tell us, me,what do I need to learn in this lifetime?
What do I have to get over to evolve?
But with without this work,without being able to get to the place
where you operate from your trueself, yes,
(21:39):
you're you're not going to achievewhat you set out to, let's say.
Right.
You may not get the big changeyou want, right?
You may not get the big growth you want.
And and I would say whatwe're looking for now
and probably some of the reasonwe have so many big changes,
(22:00):
so many upheavals at the moment,just human beings have been pushing
and we all have to get to a place
now where we get big change that's needed.
We have to change the waywe've been doing things for millennia.
So if we go back,we've got the mother delivers
this toxic ball to a fetus, an infantwho then has to wall it off,
(22:24):
doesn't realize it is constantlybroadcasting negative messages.
And there's simple things.
You know, as I said, you're not lovable.
You're not going to be successful.
You can't have everything you want.
You can't be happy.
Very simple.
And her mother and her motherall had their own little ball of.
(22:45):
That's right.
But now I take it, I wall it off.
But in doing so,I cut off part of my unconscious.
So I've cut off a part of myself.
And also because I know I'm doing thisto take care of her, I have to become her
because I am simply, you know, a fetus.
What do I knowabout taking care of a grown woman?
(23:08):
Nothing.
So to do it,I have to actually become my mother.
Can you give me an example of that? Yes.
A baby will take on qualitiesof one of the parents.
But let's say the mother first,since that's where we all start.
So you don't know it.
But you've now ingestedthis toxic ball of hers, right?
(23:31):
So that there's two waysin which you become her.
You take in her material,and then you have to become
a mother to take care of your own mother.
Well, who are you going to turn to?
Your own mother.
So you will model your personalityon hers.
From the very. Beginning.
From the very beginning, I'm going to feelabout things the way she feels.
(23:55):
I'm going to do things the way she doesthem. Now.
This is less obvious, right?
We all come out and sometimes
people go, oh boy, your child'sthe spitting image of you, right?
We can start to see it.
But this goes way beyond just the geneticswe will feel about ourselves,
the way she felt we will feel about thingsin the world, the way she felt.
(24:17):
So even if there is a kidwho says there's no way I'm
going to be anything like my motheror my father, and they think they're
going in the opposite direction,are they not really
going in the opposite direction?
They may, in part.
So they may have this wonderful,
rebellious or driving spiritthat gets them somewhere.
(24:38):
I'm just never going to do anythingthe way my parents did.
Right? Well, right.Every teenager's famous last words.
But if we look,we have to look at the unconscious.
You can't always tell everything.
Just looking at the surface, right?
You cannot tell how big the iceberg is.
If by just seeing the tip,you have to look at the dream.
So I have to go to some rebellious personor non
(24:59):
rebellious person and and say, okay,but tell me the dream.
And little by little what we find. Yes.
Is that in all of your great efforts.
And I applaud them to do things your way.
Yes. And keepI'm not saying don't, don't try for that.
But what we want to do is then get outall of the unconscious ways
(25:19):
in which you had no ideayou were your mother,
you were your father,you were your older sister.
What?
We're getting out againare not the things that help you.
We're getting out the waysin which they themselves
weren't free to be their best self.
What was it that held them back?
(25:40):
Because you will have digested all of thatyou took it into.
So we have to get to it.
So we've got all of this happening.
And so what it does, if I have to come outand immediately go to work saving you
so that I can live, we set up a sort ofmaster and slave relationship.
You are the master.
I take care of you.
I give that part of myself.
(26:02):
I'm no longer going to be me.
I have to be you to take care of you.
And I have to holdall of your toxic material.
I am diminishing the fullness
of my being each time I have to do that.
So I get less and less.
And so could an example of that be, say,
there's a young woman and there's a person
(26:23):
she's attracted to a man, let's say,and he is completely intriguing to her.
But she says, I'mI'm not I'm not good enough for him.
Is that her mother speaking?
In that case,would she be stopping herself
because she's got to protectthat ball of trauma?
Yes. Somewhere in there.
(26:44):
If if that's what she's saying. Right.
I'm not good enoughor if that's the feeling.
And it may be a deep feeling, right?
It may just feel. Like I'm a I don't.
I don't like him.
Sometimes we have to really dig down a bitand sort of go, okay, well, what is it?
Why is it that person I mean, it could beromantic interest, it could be a friend.
It could be a teacher that you just can't,you know, you know something?
(27:05):
Well, we have to dig downand figure out what is that?
Is that an unconscious messageyou're carrying?
That you are somehow not good enough?
Not worthy, not deservingwill never be loved.
You know that.
They'll find out there's somethingfundamentally wrong with you.
So don't even try it.
Because even if you get there,it will fall apart.
All of the ways human beings do themselvesin, right?
(27:28):
Where do we cut ourselves offfrom a potentially happy life?
Success?
Getting something we want.
That's what we call the internal saboteur.
It is sort of the guard.
It says, all right, I know there isa ball of toxin sitting back here.
It was really painful when we got this.
Let's never touch it again.
(27:50):
Yes, it might be giving messagesbut will live with it, right?
You can take the messages. You'll live.
They won't kill you.
And it was originally tryingto save you pain.
Why would we ever go back and put our handon a flaming hot stove? Why?
Why would you do that again?Don't do that.
So it was going to save you initially,but because you now
(28:14):
just have to, you're not touching it,but you've got to listen to and obey.
Master slave.
I've got to obey my master.
My master tells me I'm not worthy.
My master tells me I don't deserveeverything I'm supposed to have.
Now we've got handcuffs,so you get an imprint.
The internal saboteuris going to protect you from it.
(28:34):
It thinks it's doing a good job,but fundamentally,
because it never lets you touch it again.
You are handcuffed and bound.
You are a slave to its messaging.
This is happeningwith every single person.
And for every single person.
It is all we know.
(28:55):
I think a lot of us can't even conceiveof there being anything beyond
that that we are somehow
just suffering through that.
That's just our course.
We don't have a choice.
That's again,I guess part of the master slave story.
What all wanted the whole world to knowis there's a choice.
(29:16):
We now have a way to give you a choice,which is you can look at your dreams,
see the true story of what happened, find
the pieces from the imprint,
all the messages come through them.
Undo them and take the handcuffs off.
(29:36):
So if this is happening to everybody,
and everybody has to be fundamentallyput in the position of being a slave,
I am a slave to take care of my mother.
Parents, right?
First we bring in the mother,but then everybody in the family comes in.
I have to take care of you.
(29:56):
I get crumbs, right?
So I work for you and I.
That's just how it is.
That's all I know.
That's all I know.
I don't think about it right now.
What happens when that's going onwith every single person.
And what will happen is because this isall unconscious, we do not know it,
but this is the templatefor how life goes, how the world goes.
(30:20):
We will go out there and make surewe recreate it, meaning we unconsciously
will get ourselvesinto predicaments, set up situations
that repeat all of this.
And this is what's happening in the world.
Everybody is repeatingall of the unconscious feelings
(30:41):
and experiencesthat they got in the womb, that they got
from the imprint,and they go out and live them.
And so as time goes by,this just becomes a bigger
and bigger ball of traumafor humanity at large.
Right? It's like just rolling into.
Rolling downhill, picking up speed andand collecting volume.
(31:03):
And through the course of time,I suppose there have always
been opportunities for individualsto do something different.
We just haven't had the the technology.
Yeah. That's right.
And now we have the technology. Right.
So he was jumping up and down.
I mean he didn't really jump on mebut right almost.
(31:23):
Oh my gosh. Right. Wait a minute.
Went when it began to become clear
of what this let you now address.
What if you couldby listening to someone's dreams,
albeit very carefully,making sense of them
connected to what they say,trying to build a picture,
(31:44):
an emotional pictureof who this person is, what happened?
What imprint did you get?
What junk?
What trash have you been carrying around?
Assuming it is you?
And what if we could startto diminish that trash and free you.
In the diminishing of the trash throughthe course of listening to the dreams?
And you see what the trash is?
(32:05):
How does the trash then go away?
Is it that you now discuss this like,okay,
that we see thatthat's what your mom was doing?
Does the person who has the dreamthen begin over time to understand.
Wait a minute.
That that thing is not me, right?
(32:27):
And all this time I thought that was me.
Is is that kind of how the trash goesaway?
Yes. There probably many waysin which what you're doing
is making space for the humanbeing sitting in front of you.
Who is covered in marinatingin all of this
negative stuff left over from the imprint.
(32:49):
So yes,every time you make some piece of it
conscious, oh, you didn't knowyou were doing this just like mom.
You thought you were really different,right? To your point.
You had worked so hard tomaybe not do it that way,
or it just wasn't clearyou were doing it that way.
But here it isin the dream says so, right?
(33:10):
And we are looking at dreams.
It could be something,you know, an example of that is sometimes
you will have a person in the dreamand they'll be doing something right.
I was going to the movies and then I metmy friends at the restaurant.
Oh, right. You go, what's the story here?
So sometimes you have to really be asking,well, okay, what were you wearing?
And then it'll come upand I had on my mother's pearls.
(33:34):
I don't even wear those.
Why was I wearing themlittle hints like that.
But it begins to show. Right.
I was standing in my mother's shoes.
I forgot she used to wear those shoesI saw.
That tells us. Right.What's your foundation.
You said I'm standing on my mother.
Okay,now we can start to make that conscious.
(33:56):
Now you can start to say, oh,I didn't know that.
All right,maybe I sound like her sometimes.
Maybe I make her favorite brownie recipe.
But I didn't know that.
Fundamentally,I had formed my life as a copy of hers
because I thought I had to.
I didn't know there was a choice.
I just took in her troubles.
(34:17):
I had to mother her.
So I became her, and I went off on my way.
Okay, but there it is. Right?
So you will begin to get it.
Now, those are very simple.
Sometimes it is trickier to track down.
If you can imagine, there areso many flavors of dreams, right? You.
But you just have to listen to the person.
You have to talk to them and understandtheir life, not just the dream.
(34:39):
I want to hear everything in your life.
Tell me about it all, becauseI want to make sense of who you are.
And mostly not just for me.
I want to do it so I understand you.
I want you to do it so that everythingthat has been hidden to you becomes known.
Then you get to decide.
As a therapist, you you listen to
(35:00):
how your patient describes their life,how they feel about their families,
their friends, the world,what they express to you consciously.
You know, I had the best family.
You know, my mom and dad love me so muchand whatever it might be.
And then eventuallyyou are listening to the dreams.
Or maybe all through the process,you're listening to the dreams and
(35:21):
and then do the dreams
show you what some of theI don't know if you call them lies
or perhaps the bits of traumathat they're basing their reality on.
Right.
And then how hard is itto help your patients understand that
(35:42):
all this that they've been doingisn't really them, and that this thing
that they thought was truthis somebody else's trauma.
That sounds so hard.
You know, there may be parts of itthat are hard.
Yes, we have resistance to a lotof these things, but we also have people
who are coming in generallybecause something didn't go right.
(36:04):
Sure. Right.
So somebody is coming inbecause they want relief.
So there is a part of the personwho is saying, help me, right?
I don't know what's going on or I do find.
Doc, I will listen to you. Right.You know, you're the expert.
All right.
Tell me.
I can decide whether I like it or not,whether I want to come back or not.
Yeah, but let me at least herebecause I'm suffering.
Right?
And so, yes, a lot of timespeople are a little bit shocked
(36:26):
to find out that the storythey told themselves
about where they come from is not accurate
in terms of the way their feelings,their emotional self experienced it.
And then we have to setabout correcting things,
because if you want to cure suffering,
(36:48):
you have to know the truthof how you got there.
You have to know the truth of your life.
The mind likes the truth.
So the more truth you can be pulling outfrom the dreams and saying, okay,
but it sounds like this.
So, all right,if you tell me this, everything was great,
but then you have a dreamthat looks like the apocalypse.
(37:09):
How do we square it?
Let's work together to figure outhow do you square this.
How can we make sense of it.
Right. Ityou know those two don't go together.
No. Okay.
So if you're really fighting methat much on it
meaning this makes so little sense to you.
Don't come back. It's okay.
But most of the timewhat people are saying is.
Oh, but this starts to explain why
(37:31):
I always sat at the back of the classroombecause I felt like
I was the dumbest kid in class.
Oh, maybe I wasn'tthe dumbest kid in class.
And that's a huge moment to shiftthat feeling, right?
It's huge. Right?
And you can imagineeach one of us has something right.
You know, your place where you're like,oh, I'm not good at this.
(37:51):
That's hard for me.
I try not to get in those situations.
I'm sorry.Please don't make me do this. Right.
Well, what if those, as you said,those are really other people's traumas
that you've taken in and made you.
What if we get a chance to peelthat off of you and see who you are?
Then we don't have to walk around.
(38:12):
So we're in this master slave position
and being in that positionalso makes us terribly afraid,
you know, because we
have no controland we are condemned to repeat
all of these pre-birth experiencesfrom the womb.
All of these thingswe got from the imprint out in the world.
(38:34):
You might do it, I might do it.
I'm going to go out there
and make sure if I felt I was dumb,then I'm going to go make sure
somehow I get myself into situationswhere I am made to feel stupid.
I am made to feel incompetent,whatever it is now,
what happens if we're all doing that?
What happens if we set up the world
(38:57):
to repeat our terror,
our fears,our worst feelings about ourselves?
It will do it.
It will do it.
It doesn't mean there aren'tgood things that come in, thank God.
Right?
Like love, we have things that softenthe edges at times, not always right.
Sometimes it is just plaingenocide, War, murder, right?
(39:18):
If we're lucky, we get some softness.
But that's what we're all doing.
We are all out there taking our insides
and putting them on everything.
Now, if you want to fix that,you cannot start out there.
That's not the origin.
The origin is in here.
(39:39):
And if we don't all goin, find this and fix this.
You can never fix that.
We can only make it worse.
You'll make it worse.
You certainly won't make it better.
In each of us.
Then we have to figure out how to dealwith our wars.
Our genocide? Yes.
Where did the murder happen?
Where?
Where did the cheatingand lying and stealing.
(40:02):
Where did something get taken from me?
Internally? Emotionally?
Where do I feel that was done to me?
That then that getsbrought out into the world right now.
And then we have another dilemma.
Our leaders, they all have an imprint too.
They all went through the same experience.
They have to both feel our fear.
(40:24):
We will pick a leaderwho will then take all of this fear
that and upset an awful feelingsthat we are putting out in the world.
We're going to elect a leaderwho will make sure those come true also.
So in a way, that leaderis protecting our ball of trauma.
Well,it is certainly abiding by it, right?
It is abiding by our imprints that saywe're we only get crumbs and the world.
(40:49):
I am only allowed so much good stuff.
Now, do we get some people who sort of,you know, identify with being the king
or the queen, which is really our mothersor fathers, the,
you know, the person with everything.
Well, if you're a fetus who's just takenin all of this, yuck, split yourself up
so that you could take care of thisother person.
(41:10):
Guess who the king or queen is?
That other person? Your parent?
Your mother.
I'm going back to the mothersbecause that's where we start.
I'm going back to the mothersbecause they carry the children
and because they have been mistreated.
So they have had more of this
put into them also forever.
(41:31):
They were the weaker group.
So they're going to have less power,but they're carrying that.
So you want to makethe next generation of babies feel better.
Even if you couldn't go in and analyzeall the dreams, give women all the freedom
and power to make us equal,give women a seat at the table
(41:51):
and you start undoing some of the troublejust there.
Any time as a group,if we are putting women down,
not anybody we're putting down, but womenbecause they carry the babies.
If you are doing that, youguarantee trauma to the next generation.
So we have to stop traumatizing ourselvesover and over and over.
(42:12):
Start treating women equal.
And it seems likethrough the course of time,
there are moments where it appearsto be really important that women
start to have a place at the table,and then we sort of backslide
and that backslide
is that coming from us thinking,wait a minute, wait a minute.
(42:34):
This is a little bit unknown,both for men and women.
I'm not sure we're ready to like,open that door a little bit more.
But it's part of the imprint.
We don't get this.
We don't get to be equal.
We don't get to have everything we want.
We don't get to have a happy life.
We don't get to make the choiceswe want to make.
I don't get to do what I want to do.
(42:56):
I have to be a slave,and we've all got this in us.
So we are all going to act this out,right?
So we may get a little bit and then, yes,the internal saboteur will sort it up.
You're going to break this imprint.
We don't do that.
I told you that was really painful. Stop.
And it's not quite such a nice voice,you know, it gets destructive, right?
(43:18):
You're getting too close. Back up. Yeah.
And then something will happen, right?
It gets undone some forces.
Because there even though this is allhappening at an individual level,
we all come together.
We have a mass unconscious.
So we all have this all going on.
We are all filled with all of this upsetand destruction, and we are putting it.
(43:39):
We're putting it on the world out there.
Now, that doesn't mean thatthat is how it has to be.
If you can start to know that,start working inward.
Go fix it inward, right,so that we are healing ourselves.
We are helping ourselves decidewe need love and what we're really doing.
(43:59):
As we pull out some of this trash,we make more space in our own unconscious.
We stop being our mothers,our fathers, other people as much.
So we are also making more spacein our unconscious for our true selves.
What we get is this beautiful reward.
We get a cleaner connection to spirit.
(44:24):
And that's really what all ofthis is about.
We have to get ourselves backto a full connection with source.
And where does where do we go with that?
Or what does that do for us?
Gets you everything.
If you want to be ableto have a happy life in a peaceful world.
People have talked about that.
For how long?Right way out of world peace.
(44:46):
Okay, well, world peace requireseverybody to clean up their insides,
fix themselves firstin each person, connect back with God.
God is not war and destruction.
Spirit source, God, whateveryou want to call it, it is pure love.
And that pure love is really
(45:06):
the essence of who we are.
Individuals.
Once we're unencumbered.
Yes, we have it in us now.
We are in everything for.
Each and every one of us.
We are part of the divine.
Could we say that you can't
honestly give love to others?
(45:27):
And until you figured outthat unencumbered you?
I would say some people can love,but most of us
are compromised in some way
because the more trash we're carrying,
the less room in our unconsciousthere is for us.
And our unconsciousis the pathway to spirit.
(45:50):
So the more you mess up this pathwaybecause you're not yourself,
the less contact,the less access to pure love you have.
I see, so you might have thiskind of a wall and a little dribble
over here, or it might be fully blocked.
Right. These arethis is what we're looking at.
So you know we're cleaning out.
(46:10):
We are cleansing. We are making space.
We're clearing this. Path. Yes.
We're clearing a path are what we haveto do is get back in touch with source.
When we are in touch with source,when we are coming from
that place of this honest, authentic love.
In addition, then to sort of being ableto give love of that
(46:35):
same ilk, we'realso then able to receive love of that.
Right?
Because so what's happening isif we're still carrying
all of this toxic materialor let's say, enough of it,
the love you give,you may be able to give some.
You probably won't feel you're allowedto receive that much of it.
It's all compromised.
(46:55):
And when it goes out there in the world
and gets enacted, it'sso filled with the gunk, right?
The trash that you know, yes,it comes through.
It's not like we're living in a world
where there, you know, there'snothing good, but it's compromised.
And what it doesn't let us do
is fundamentallyget the political systems, the governments
and the earth right to work for us.
(47:18):
The governments don't really work for us.
At the end of the day,I think most people feel
they work for the rich people,but that's what we set up
because we don't feelwe deserve the right government.
If we felt we deserved it,we would have governments who were scared,
worriedthey would offend us by not serving us
(47:39):
the best way,
by not making sure that theirwhy should anybody in this world be hungry
or not have a home, or be strugglingwith something that they need help
with or need medical careand we don't give it to them?
There is something fundamentallywrong with us, but we care about money.
There's something wrong with usthat isn't a loving system.
(48:02):
No, that's super clear. Right?
But that that is what we have beenbringing.
We have all been bringing it.
We are now tasked with changing
that and saying, oh,but we don't want that world anymore.
Okay, then you have to starton the individual level.
You have to understandthat you are carrying
(48:25):
this imprint,that it will make you destructive.
Fundamentally, it will keep you.
It will make you a slave and keep you
from having the good things,the true love, all of it.
You might get a little too.You won't get it all.
And we have to diminish that.
And then as a group, raiseour consciousness as a group.
(48:47):
Grow up.
Stop being babieswho turn everybody into mothers
and fathers, kings, queens,billionaires, leaders, whatever
it is, we've got them all mixed upbecause we are the little baby slaves.
We've got them all mixed up with parents.
And they're basically operatingfrom their baby space.
(49:09):
That's right.
They'll do what we want them to dobecause they've got the same problem.
They may have a lot of money,
they still have an imprint,and we're all mixed up anyway
because we make them into mothersor fathers, which is really our mistake,
because we make our mothers and fathersinto God.
So our spirit. And it isn't the people.
(49:30):
We have to fix the entire systemand we cannot fix it externally.
We cannot fix the system out there.
That is a creation of what is inside.
Although scary, super refreshingto think that
I can focus on healing myself
in order to really participatefully in humanity.
(49:53):
That's a lot of work and we needa lot of people to be willing to say,
I'm going to take this trip.
I'm going to find outwho I really am, right?
Without the likes of you in our lives,
meaning that we cannot come toyou and sit with you and,
you know, have therapy with you,this still seems so worthwhile.
(50:15):
I think we're creating a spacewhere people can begin to see this
and feel curiousenough about it to find some places
where they can get help,whether it's paying attention,
attention to this podcast,talking amongst their friends,
people can start to pay attentionto their dreams on.
(50:37):
On some level,they'll never get to the place
where they can with you in private.
Yes, all of that.
My hope is that what people will hearis okay, wait a minute.
There'sthere's a way to think about all of this.
There's a way to not have tojust panic and feel this is on both sides.
When one political parties empower,one group of people feels panicked.
(51:01):
Another political parties in power,the other group of people feels panicked.
This is just a hot potato.
We toss it aroundand so one country's at war.
Everybody's scared. What?
What we're really saying is, okay,hold on a minute.
There is a different wayto think about all of this.
We are not going to come up with apolitical system or a treaty or any of it.
It might hold for a while,and then it starts to fall apart.
(51:25):
Bail was fond of saying all empires
and they all tumblebecause it doesn't hold together.
You cannot keep it going.
The destructive forceswill eventually undo it.
So in my mind, really hopeful now
because they've tried to do thatfor thousands of years, it hasn't worked.
(51:46):
Oh, wait a minute.But we haven't tried this.
We haven't triedgetting everybody to understand
they have an unconscious,they have an imprint.
There is a way through your dreamsto understand how your imprint
is crippling you,how it is keeping you a slave,
how it is making you not have a completelyfulfilled life, how it is keeping
(52:07):
you fundamentally from full feelingsof getting and giving love.
And we can change something.
It really is a new opportunity right?
It's a new opportunity.
This is a different technology.
We have plenty of amazing technology,but none of that technology
has changedthe hearts of human beings. No.
(52:28):
It hasn't stopped us from having war.
It hasn't stopped usfrom killing each other.
This can.
And to that end,we can as individuals on some level, begin
to discern the differencebetween our true selves and our trauma
by looking at our dreamsover the course of time and
(52:49):
and thinking about them and feelingthe feelings associated with them.
I don't want to step out of turnin saying that, but I really feel like
this is a new opportunity, and I feel thatindividuals have an opportunity
to begin to open their own doorsto who they really are.
Yes, that'sthe whole idea is first at least.
(53:12):
If nothing else, here's a new idea.
Think about it.
Yeah, just give it a thought that we arecarrying around all of these things
that have done us in all this time,
and that maybe the souls that are here,all of us have decided
this is the time when we don't needto keep doing the same.
We'll maybe we get as a groupa new experience.
(53:37):
What if we get an experienceof connecting to source in a way
that we actually get everythingeverybody says they want?
Everybody wants this amazing fantasy life.
Look at the internet.
It is filled with peopletrying to convince you
they have found this amazing fantasy lifewhere they know how to get it.
They could sell it to you cheap.
Just come on this vacation or buy this,or wear this lip gloss or go on this diet.
(54:01):
But it's what we're all trying to getis this state of being where
you oh my God, it's amazing.
Right?
And I'm not saying that everythinghas to be only that way, but it's
that you have the ability to get thereand it is to connect with source.
And you can't connect with sourceuntil you deal with your imprint.
(54:21):
And in doing so, that process is really
I am imagining, at leastit seems so for me, a life journey.
Yes, but what else are you going to do?Yeah.
I mean, what else could you dothis more important?
Yeah. And more interesting.
It's so you. Get to dig in.
What are these things? Every nightI have a dream.
Sometimes I have a nightmare. Okay, great.
Then it's really important tolook at that one.
(54:43):
You have a nightmare.
I really want to seewhat you're dreaming about.
Because I want to hearwhat you want to tell me.
You need to understand.
To grow your mind,to free your unconscious of trash.
But you're going to tell me every night.
Yeah.
Unknowingly.
I mean, yeah.
Unknowingly, but nonetheless. Yeah.How amazing.
You mean we have this built in?
(55:05):
This is what we're built to do.
Over the course of timethat I spent with Bernard.
Because we loved each other so much,we talked about our dreams incessantly.
I mean, it was his favorite topic.
And to say, of course.
And he knew just what you were saying.
This is what we do.
What else do we doexcept follow this path,
(55:26):
go on this journey,discover who we are as individuals, then
become part of sort of this innate processof, yeah, helping humanity.
And when I began this journey with him,I didn't know anything about dreams.
I dismissed them readily and regularly.
And, you know, I had this great lifeand everything was set up
(55:48):
the way I meant it to be.
And he was, you know, so curious like.
And when
we would talk about my dreams and,and because I didn't come to him
for therapy, he was not my therapist,I didn't come to him with an issue,
I had issues, but I remember just thinkingthat's not what that dream was about.
(56:09):
How does how does he come up with that?
Know that thingI just told you about yesterday?
That was my perfect life.
And you're telling me that's not perfect,but unbelievable.
Through the course of talking about thesedreams, there's no moment.
But eventually I came to say,that's ridiculous.
(56:31):
Really? Really.
I've been doing this for 60 years
and thinking this was the way to do it.
I've believed that thing over therewas my truth and it was the opposite.
I mean, it's just fascinating andso changed the way I get to live my life.
(56:51):
I'm, you know, forever grateful.
Yeah.
But still comes up. Stuff still comes up.
And I find myself, though, on my ownbecause I don't have a therapist.
Right. Thinking about my dreams.
And I'm fortunateto have this past experience with him.
But I can see things.
I can feel things.
(57:12):
I can still find little arteriesthat I need to travel down
that continue to change who I am.
I mean, up until recently,
my father's voicewas still walking around in my head
and I would basically runeverything by him.
Not consciously, unconsciously.
And now I.
(57:33):
I can hear that voice clearlyand I can just say, no, thank you, right?
And don't need to be you.
I don't need youif you've already lived your life
and I don't have to be a slave to you,I don't have to do everything your way.
So I keep your love. That isn't true love.
I mean, just letting go of thatone thing is such freedom.
(57:57):
So that's the whole idea, iswe get freedom.
You know, we gainthat an imprint really is handcuffs.
We don't know it.
You know thatat least you say, oh, I can hear myself
talking to this person most of the time.
We don't know. We're in conversationwith the person.
It's just so innate in us.
Yeah, but we know we can't.
(58:18):
You know, you're not going to.
You're not allowed to operateoutside of that.
Yeah. That's right.
And so you end up in a tiny little box.
Yeah.
Well and it's interestingbecause I don't think I really heard
that voice until, you know,the past few years when it was actually
almost a voice in my headthat I could say, no, no, no, thanks.
(58:39):
See, that's what we want.
We want to start to make that conscious.
So you are knowing that,you know, you're doing that
enough that you now you start to hear it.
It's been there the whole time.
It was just silent and you just thought,oh no, I just really want to go
to this school and get this job and workthis many hours and marry that person.
(59:00):
That's who I am.
That's me.
This is great. And never mind. Right.
Because most of the time then I'm.
I'm having to ignore certain things.
Where do I have tothen put the denial right.
It doesn't feel greator I just don't think about it.
Just this is life.
Don't bother me with these romantic ideas,but there's some amazing
happy life out there.
(59:21):
This is just life.
Yeah. Okay, well there is.
You have to work for it, you know?
So I'm not saying that all of this doesn'trequire work.
It does. It requires a lot.
And it may be at the moment, just evenbeing willing to entertain this idea.
Just what about this idea?
That's a start, right?
(59:42):
As a start that you have an unconsciousand you have an imprint and you have taken
in all kinds of negative feelingsand they work against you.
You know, people understandthe concept of self-sabotage.
This is that on a grand level,an unconscious level
where you don't realizeyou cut off a pathway to something good
(01:00:03):
before you ever get there,because you don't feel you're allowed.
And we do that as a groupand we're going to have to change that.
This is the time it is.
I have to ask youone more thing that you're
so full of all of this information.
You live it, you breathe it.
It's part of who you are.
(01:00:24):
How did you come to this?
Through a lot of hard work.
You know, my father found Doctor bail.
My father's a psychiatrist.
He was doing his training.
He found Doctor Bail, who was workingalready, and he liked what he had to say.
He liked what he thought about.
He really believed in it,brought those ideas home.
(01:00:48):
And I grew up with them.
And then I thought.
I thought, I'll do something else.
Let me go do something else.
I tried other thingsand they didn't hold my interest.
I wasn't also very good at them.
And so it seemed that that I was goingto have to train with doctor bail.
I got lucky.
So you came to Doctor Bail and trained
(01:01:09):
with Doctor Bail, already
knowledgeable of the precious messagesyour dreams had for you.
Already knew dreams were really important.
You know, that was like,yeah, I just, you know, that was.
That was already part of.
That's right.
Then I thought,all right, well, I'll do this.
I had to go to school and study this.
Finally work up my courage to seeDoctor Bail because I saw other people.
(01:01:35):
I think my imprint didn't let me go right
to the person that had all the knowledge.
That was too scary to me,so I had to work my way up there.
But luckily I did.
And I think, you know, that's importantfor all of us to consider that probably
this thing that we need to achieve
(01:01:56):
in order to make us whole is scary.
Yes, it feels scary.
And human beings are fearful creatures.
We are always scared.
We're always scared.
When we separated from source,
I think we didn't understandwhy things happened that we don't know.
What is this?Why did that lightning strike?
It made fire over thereand that volcano erupted.
(01:02:17):
I mean, it's terrifying.
It's terrifying. We didn't understand.
And so because we got disconnected
and we didn't understand things,all of this fear began to build up.
And that,of course, kept us more disconnected.
And we've carried it.
And it builds and buildsand we're all just very, very fearful.
Even those that are brave, we're fearful.
(01:02:39):
I didn't understand anything when I wasyoung, like most young people don't.
I didn't know much of anything.
They said, oh, well, you don't see DoctorBail go to this therapist.
I don't know, the doctorBail would have had time for me anyway.
He was very busy, but it didn't.
In my mind.
I didn't have an imprint thatlet me say no.
(01:03:01):
I want to see him says idea.
Why would I go to somebody else?
It didn't occur to me I had to grow.
Yeah, well, thank you for growing.
Well, and then I got lucky.
So I got to work with him, train with him,fundamentally
learn about myself, figure out
what the hell was going on in there,what was stopping me, what was in my way.
And look, this isn't like you do this and,oh, you know, done.
(01:03:24):
You never. Yeah. No.And you get to keep doing it.
But you know what you're doing,and you have a way
to think about yourself in the worldand what's going on.
So you work through things.
I'm a worker.
I like to. Work,and you become interested in it.
It's almost as if you can't.
And you needed to do all that
so that you could haveall of your patients come to you.
I had to to be a person with everythingpeople go through,
(01:03:46):
so that I can understand what it's liketo be a person going through.
That's right. Thank you.
Thank you, thank youfor letting me talk about all this.
Thank you for letting me share his ideasand and and explain,
hopefully,how people can think about something new
and that we all need to do itso that we can all now decide
(01:04:07):
we do not have to be treated as a groupthe way we've been treated.
And we don't have to treat the earththe way we've been treating the earth.
That both need to happen.
We don't have to be slaves anymore.
So look here.
Look here, it's all in here.
Everything out there is what has been doneto us inside everything.
(01:04:30):
The way we treat the earth iswhat has been done to us inside.
How much trash pollute everything?
Well, we've been polluted.
So of course we're going to do that.
We've been lied to.
Somebody says I love youand then they hate you.
That's a lie. You don't love me.
That's a lie. You.
You may wish it wasn't, but it is. Yeah.
(01:04:51):
And there's a lot of wishing.
But it's interesting how these two thingsmirror each other so, so well.
And you can really start to think aboutwhat's happening in our world,
what's happening.
In me, what happened in me such that me
and all of my brothers and sisters suchthat it is now out there in the world.
(01:05:11):
Who am I to not be able to say anythingabout what's happening in my life,
for example. Right?
Why am I not in charge?
Am I why am I not the master of my ownlife?
I can't do somethingbecause you might not like it.
I'm not talking about killing you, right?
But I can't make a decision for myself.
That feels good to me because I'm worriedit might offend someone.
(01:05:31):
Where does that idea even come from?
Well, here.
Okay, well, we're moving forward, okay?
Which means you're coming backplenty of time.
All right. I'd love to.Thank you so. Much. Thank you.
Thank you for paying attention to us.
It's really important.Come back again soon.
Hi, I'm Cynthia Marks.
I head up the HolisticPsychoanalysis Foundation
established by my latehusband, Doctor Bernard Bail.
Welcome to And Now Love.
We have Doctor Loren Wiener with us today.
Her psychologypractice is based on the teachings
(00:25):
of my favorite Doctor Bail, whomshe's followed for many years, many years.
Today we are going to talk broadlyabout Doctor Bail's incredible theory
and how it can help us to liveour best lives,
to be our best bit of humanity.
And lucky for us, Loren is our expert.
(00:48):
Thank you, as always,for being so willing to share with us.
So really, we kind of wanted
to go back to the beginningbecause we have our fabulous
audience, plus new peoplecoming to listen to us and watch us.
And we just need a little refresherfor those of us
who have been paying attentionso far, and a pretty good description
(01:11):
of what we're doing for our new visitors.
So tell us, what is this all about?
Okay, well, thank you for having me.
I'm glad to be back.
Welcome to everybody new and old.
Doctor Bail was a psychoanalystand he trained in
what was the normal way then,which was basically a Freudian paradigm.
(01:33):
And he learned this.
And what it really brought out for himwas a love of dreams.
And Freud had a great love of dreams.
He feltit was the royal road to the unconscious.
And Bail fell in love, basically.
He went on to have a Freudian analysis,
which means he brought his dreams tosomebody and talked about them.
(01:56):
He also then, as times were changing,
had, a bony an analysis with another
very well-known theorist. Yes.
And I, from what he discussed with me,
those experiences were extremely valuable.
And he, of course,respected those individuals.
(02:16):
But I think he felt likehe had to go through that experience
in order to realize that experi wasn'tenough.
Like, these are great conversations.
I'm learning so much that we have thesefabulous intellectual back and forth,
but yet there's still this thingthat's not.
(02:36):
I think he felt he wasn't changed enough.
Yeah. So he has a love of the dream.
You know,he came out of his psychoanalysis training
and his own analysis,and he loved the dream.
And so he would ask for dreamsand his patients would comply,
you know, they would bring him dreams.
And so over time, he would shift fromperhaps
making,you know, more traditional interpretations
(03:00):
to starting to say to his patientswhat he was starting to hear.
Oh, I think that isyour mother in the dream,
and you must be a baby, right.
And and he started to shift.
Now, it isn't that nobody everthought people were infantile, right?
But this was really himstarting to talk about the beginnings
of what he would really come towrite about is this very lasting imprint,
(03:29):
right way in which we relate
to emotionally connectto the people that give birth to us.
What he came to seewas that mothers actually imprint
their children,meaning mothers carry their own,
unprocessed, not understood, painful,
(03:52):
sometimes conscious, but most importantly,unconscious material.
We are all walking around withboth a conscious and unconscious mind,
and so the unconscious mindbecomes this receptacle,
if you will, for everythingthat happens to us in our life.
And you get enough of the painful
(04:13):
things, right,because the good things help us.
They don't need to be examined. Yes.
I mean, we can examine them.
They, you know, we'd like to,but it's really
the things that get in our way,the destructive forces
that we want to focuson, analyze and be looking for.
You want to hunt those down.
And so mothers don't knowthey're carrying all of this.
(04:36):
Even if they do, it's unconscious.
There's not much you can do about it.
But what happens is that this
nascent being, this concept,this fetus infant,
comes into being inside this mother
and becomes the receiver of all of thisnegative material.
(04:59):
And that's not intentional.
Harm, not intentional at all.
But it happens.
And Bail felt that it happensbecause the fetus or infant,
you know,after birth can feel very sensitive,
can feelthat the mother is beset with troubles.
(05:19):
Now, if your mother has troubles,
your survival might be compromised, right?
You need a really healthy, good motherwho is going to attach to you,
love you, feed you,not forget you somewhere, and not be too
depressed to get out of bedand make sure you're okay.
You need mom to be in pretty goodcondition, but this baby detects,
(05:41):
because of its enormous sensitivity,that everything is not right.
What does it do?
Well,it sets out with a rather Herculean task.
Also unconscious. Right.
So we've got the two deepestparts of people, the unconscious pieces.
Now in communication in the baby says,well, mom, you have too much trouble.
(06:02):
Don't worry, I'll take it.
I'll hold this.
Then you'll be relieved.
And if you're relieved
of all your troubles, you should be happyand able to take care of me.
I live, we're good.
This is the only way I can surviveis to help you.
That's right. And all of this is happeningin the unconscious.
This is all unconscious.
So we may imagine.
Oh, what's goingon? Oh, you got a little morning sickness.
(06:25):
The baby's growing and floating around.
Okay, that is the tip of the icebergof what is really happening.
That unconsciouslythere is just this enormous contact.
So this baby does this.
Okay, so now we've got a baby holdingwhat you can imagine is like a toxic
ball of bad feelingsthe mother has about herself.
(06:46):
All the ways in which she is not good,in which she feels
unloved, in which she doesn't feelthings were fair.
Maybe the ways in which women aren'tallowed to have a seat at the table
aren't allowed to decideall kinds of things for themselves,
or get paid as much, any,any way in which you can imagine
somebody, you know, they were beaten,they were cheated
(07:08):
on, they weren't loved themselves,you name it, it's in this ball.
Just to pick that apart a little bit.
Just let's saytake the part where mom feels unloved.
Of course.
Then if she feels unloved, howis this baby going to feel love from her?
So this fetus then says,
I don't want you to feel unloved,so I'm going to feel unloved myself.
(07:32):
Is that kind of it? Yes, I think it is.
It is probably on such a feeling level.
But yes, fundamentally that'swhat happens.
The baby looks and goes,oh my God, you're in danger.
You have a toxic ball.
It might take you out and I need you.
I need to survive, so I'll hold it.
(07:52):
In reality,there's no difference being made.
There's no difference being made.
This is all psychological and really, it's
a fantasy on the fetus's partthat the fetus could in any way
really change the motherby holding on to this.
But that doesn't mean all of the feelings
(08:16):
that go along with all thataren't taken into the baby.
They're taken in.
Now, this baby has this toxic balland it has to do something with it.
So it was it off says, okay, you know,you can imagine like an oyster
gets a bit of sand and it's an irritant.
This is more than an irritant,but you get the idea.
And it starts to put layersand layers of pearl around it, protect it.
(08:40):
Now I don't know there's any sand thereand it's all fine.
And I have this beautiful pearl.
So it's almost like you've made it. Okay.
Yeah, you've. You've made it okay.
But unlike an oyster,what you've had to do is split your mind.
Now imagineyou've got a bedroom in your house
that you've put stuff in.
(09:00):
Shut the door.
Maybe you've drywall it over the door.
Nobody even knowsthere's a door there anymore.
Except it's not quiet.
It doesn't sit hidden silently.
It is now sending messages.
Oh, you're unloved.
You're bad.
You can't dowhat you want to do in your life.
Nobody liked you anyway. You're ugly.
You're unlovable.
(09:21):
You're mean. Is it because we're trying
to keep something trappedthat's really not trackable?
Yeah, that.
It's just got to try to get its way out.
Yeah. It is.
It is so energized that it can't reallybe contained that way.
But, you know, a fetus tries thisand this is all what has to happen
for survival.
(09:41):
And so we are looking not just at the wayanimals survive in the jungle.
We're looking at the waythese animals, humans,
because they have this unconscious piecewhich we're supposed to have, we need,
but it also has brought us this trouble
that we have to understandand we have to get in contact with.
We have to go find the room,hear the messages and start addressing
(10:06):
them and start saying to the nowgrown person who is talking to you,
listen, when you were a baby,here are some of the messages
that you receive that you have been livingwith as though they are you.
But I want to say now that's not true.
That didn't happen, right?
I mean, we all want to say, no, I don't.
(10:27):
There's that's way too scary.
I don't want to open that door.
Yes, we have that. Certainly.
Who wants to go back?
And when you get thisball of toxic material, this isn't like
a gentle delivery, right?
You will see dreams of peoplewho are in the process of getting this.
You will see dreams where peopleare hit in the head with boards.
(10:48):
Baseballs are thrownhard at the head, jumping off of something
high and cracking the headon a concrete sidewalk.
You will see actually in people'sdreams, a detail of everything,
a detail of an imprint,a detail of their life,
a detail of their emotional truth.
And Bail felt that what you really wantto get to for people
(11:10):
and the dream is the vehicle.
You know, he's going to carry over thislove of the dream.
And what he found was, oh, it contains
so much more than they ever taught me.
So as he listened,the dream just became the focus
because it was so rich with all of thefeelings, all of the experiences,
(11:31):
all of the emotional truthsthat everybody had been through.
And he found thatthere was this commonality, really,
when people were sharing their dreamswith him over the course of time,
he discovered that it all led backto this mother's imprint.
That's right. So he listened.
You know, I think he was very goodat sort of saying, I have an idea.
(11:52):
Now, let me listen.
Let me do my best to listen and seewhether the data supports the hypothesis.
Trying right not to go the other waywhere you just make
every one of your patientsfit into a theory.
I think he felthe had tried to do that and it didn't.
That didn't feel right for him.
You get all of this happening.
(12:13):
He very early on. So we are talking now.
He has said maybe even before conception,because in his mind
we have all made agreements that we aregoing to come do this together.
So the relationship is already chosenbefore somebody gets here.
So what do you mean by that?We've made agreements before.
We he felt that, you know,we all come from source.
(12:35):
And so if you come down to earthto live this life,
you have come with a certain agreement,certain curriculum,
certainthings that you are going to work on here.
In other words, a reason for your soulto incarnate in this lifetime.
And your soul makes a choice. Yes.
And for example, what would a choice be?
(12:57):
Well, it would be anything.It would be to be me.
It would be to be you.
It would be to come into the world
and have a certain set of conditionsthat are necessary to learn.
Pick any personwalking around on the planet.
He would say, okay,those were the conditions you chose.
Now, a lot of times people say,but I don't like that idea
because I don't like what I chose.
(13:19):
Understand, you know,I have great compassion for that.
That doesn't mean you didn't choose it.
Right.
So what we have to then do isget an understanding of why you did
and what we will turn to is your dreams.
So the dreams are going to bethe repository of all
of those reasons and choices.
And the way we're going to see themis you're going to tell me
(13:41):
what was the emotional experiencelike in my life?
What did it feel like growing up?
You know, didI feel loved that I feel hate?
Was I beaten, was I adored all of it.
And as I said, most of the time, what,because we live in an imperfect place
most of the time,it is the things that hurt us,
(14:03):
that didn't see our true self,that didn't support
us, that neglected us, where we couldn'tconnect, where we felt misunderstood,
maybe where we were even overtly abused.
Those are the piecesthat show up in the dream
that have to be understoodby the person listening.
(14:23):
You have to find them, see them.
You have to make an interpretation
that says, oh, hereyou're talking about this feeling,
and you do this in a back and forthso you could tell me a dream.
And then we talk about your dream.
We just have a conversation.I get to ask you questions.
Tell me what comes to mindwhen you tell me the dream.
Tell me what this part of your dreammakes you think about.
(14:45):
Tell me what you think about that piece.
And I'm listening as your unconscious.
Right.
So your deepest selfis now going to bring ideas forward
and you might resist some,but you're going to tell me a story.
Just so we're clear.
Really, what is the differencebetween our conscious and our unconscious.
(15:05):
One we're aware of and one we're not?
So the unconscious is vast.
Think size of the universe.
And that knowing of the unconscious is
is typical in the world of analysis.
Yes. That there is a beliefthat there is an unconscious. Yes.
And that's a big piecethat a lot of people don't aren't
(15:27):
familiar with, but is imperativefor us to know, Bail felt.
I mean, it was imperative for him.
It was the place where everything happens.
We think that the world is our conscious,waking life,
and that is a tip of the iceberg pieceof what's really going on.
(15:49):
And then you have the vastnessof the unconscious
that sits below, sits below the surface.
But it is what drives everything.
And I understandthat's really hard to buy into.
Yeah, it'snothing but elusive to most of us.
And how could there be anything beyondeverything
we come across in our physical world?
(16:13):
I mean, there's there's no roomfor anything else, it seems.
Right?
Well, if you listen to people talk
and you also really spend timelistening to
dreams, you would be very easily
convinced that there's a whole worldpeople know nothing about.
But it drives everything.
And people come to see this very quickly.
(16:34):
You can see connections between dreamsand how you're feeling
and how you are carryingthese very early relationships.
Right.
So our earliest caregiversset the template
for all of our relationshipsin the field of mental health.
Pretty agreed upon.
(16:55):
Bail is going to go a step furtherand say, actually, what happens in utero
is what sets the stage for everything.
And all of this human life we're walkingaround in is really just a repeat,
a recreationof what we experienced in the womb.
So what he meant by that waswe are so bombarded with all of these
(17:19):
negative parts of our caregiversbecause yes, you are in the mother, so
of course you get the mother's full blast,but also whomever is around her, right?
She is sweepingin the unconscious of the father
and maybe of other peoplewho are important to her.
Those are all swept into.
(17:40):
So, you know, we like to think of timein the womb as this bucolic.
Yes, lovely.
It is, not it?
It ismore akin to being in a haunted house
where things are jumping out at youconstantly, where you are.
Oh, this feeling, it came at me and that,oh, and that feeling.
(18:00):
And and I'm confronted with the factthat my mother doesn't even feel like
she can tackle any of this.
And how is she going to be a motherand you name it.
Right?
So now what is helping to help us?
Not all come out, you know, completelya basket case is that. Yes.
Hopefullythere are enough good feelings as well,
(18:21):
but there aren't enough of thoseat this point in our evolution
to stop us from having an imprint,from having these negative feelings
and passingthose on to the next generation.
And that has to be known about.
Bail feltthat was just the crux of everything is
that you have to know this is happening,and you have to know that the only way
(18:46):
to fix that in yourself, so
you are not walking aroundcompletely filled
with all of these negative feelingsabout yourself and then recreating
situations, recreating situationsthat will support that.
Because that's how you survive.
That was how you survived.
(19:07):
And that's how you continue to survive.
You don't know any different.You don't know any different.
You don't know it isn't you. Yes.
You don't know. It isn't you.
And the knowing of youwhen you get there is incredible.
It's just incredible.
And this is such an importantpart of us moving forward.
(19:27):
And so few of us have access
to real therapy of this sort.
So few we need to be ableto figure out a way to share this message,
because it's the only waywe can move forward in our world.
Yeah, I think that was his hope.
I mean, you know,his hope was obviously he's
(19:48):
going to work with each patientthat comes into his office.
But his real hope was that, oh, okay.
What will happen eventually is enough.
People will understandthat I have an unconscious.
In order to survive, I felt I had to take
in all of my mother's toxic feelings.
I walled them off so I've been livingas though they're mine.
(20:09):
I now have a chance to realize, oh,wait a minute, maybe I'm not unlovable.
Horrible.
Not to be successful,not to live, not to enjoy happiness.
Not to find true love, not to succeed.
Whatever it is,I can now start to look at my dreams
for kind, where all of these messageshave embedded themselves in my daily life
(20:32):
and piece by piece, pull them out
to get back to my true self
before this invasion happened.
And what we're wanting is to try to helppeople know that there is a self.
Before all of that happened,there is a whole beautiful self,
(20:53):
and that self is what we want to get to,to help change the world.
That self comes with purpose.
That doesn't have obviously anything to dowith that little package of trauma.
Okay, so that's a slightly complex answerbecause yes,
that trauma was not innate to that being.
Now the question, of course, isdid we make an agreement to come down,
(21:15):
get this packet of trauma, becausethat was going to set the curriculum,
that was going to tell us, me,what do I need to learn in this lifetime?
What do I have to get over to evolve?
But with without this work,without being able to get to the place
where you operate from your trueself, yes,
(21:39):
you're you're not going to achievewhat you set out to, let's say.
Right.
You may not get the big changeyou want, right?
You may not get the big growth you want.
And and I would say whatwe're looking for now
and probably some of the reasonwe have so many big changes,
(22:00):
so many upheavals at the moment,just human beings have been pushing
and we all have to get to a place
now where we get big change that's needed.
We have to change the waywe've been doing things for millennia.
So if we go back,we've got the mother delivers
this toxic ball to a fetus, an infantwho then has to wall it off,
(22:24):
doesn't realize it is constantlybroadcasting negative messages.
And there's simple things.
You know, as I said, you're not lovable.
You're not going to be successful.
You can't have everything you want.
You can't be happy.
Very simple.
And her mother and her motherall had their own little ball of.
(22:45):
That's right.
But now I take it, I wall it off.
But in doing so,I cut off part of my unconscious.
So I've cut off a part of myself.
And also because I know I'm doing thisto take care of her, I have to become her
because I am simply, you know, a fetus.
What do I knowabout taking care of a grown woman?
(23:08):
Nothing.
So to do it,I have to actually become my mother.
Can you give me an example of that? Yes.
A baby will take on qualitiesof one of the parents.
But let's say the mother first,since that's where we all start.
So you don't know it.
But you've now ingestedthis toxic ball of hers, right?
(23:31):
So that there's two waysin which you become her.
You take in her material,and then you have to become
a mother to take care of your own mother.
Well, who are you going to turn to?
Your own mother.
So you will model your personalityon hers.
From the very. Beginning.
From the very beginning, I'm going to feelabout things the way she feels.
(23:55):
I'm going to do things the way she doesthem. Now.
This is less obvious, right?
We all come out and sometimes
people go, oh boy, your child'sthe spitting image of you, right?
We can start to see it.
But this goes way beyond just the geneticswe will feel about ourselves,
the way she felt we will feel about thingsin the world, the way she felt.
(24:17):
So even if there is a kidwho says there's no way I'm
going to be anything like my motheror my father, and they think they're
going in the opposite direction,are they not really
going in the opposite direction?
They may, in part.
So they may have this wonderful,
rebellious or driving spiritthat gets them somewhere.
(24:38):
I'm just never going to do anythingthe way my parents did.
Right? Well, right.Every teenager's famous last words.
But if we look,we have to look at the unconscious.
You can't always tell everything.
Just looking at the surface, right?
You cannot tell how big the iceberg is.
If by just seeing the tip,you have to look at the dream.
So I have to go to some rebellious personor non
(24:59):
rebellious person and and say, okay,but tell me the dream.
And little by little what we find. Yes.
Is that in all of your great efforts.
And I applaud them to do things your way.
Yes. And keepI'm not saying don't, don't try for that.
But what we want to do is then get outall of the unconscious ways
(25:19):
in which you had no ideayou were your mother,
you were your father,you were your older sister.
What?
We're getting out againare not the things that help you.
We're getting out the waysin which they themselves
weren't free to be their best self.
What was it that held them back?
(25:40):
Because you will have digested all of thatyou took it into.
So we have to get to it.
So we've got all of this happening.
And so what it does, if I have to come outand immediately go to work saving you
so that I can live, we set up a sort ofmaster and slave relationship.
You are the master.
I take care of you.
I give that part of myself.
(26:02):
I'm no longer going to be me.
I have to be you to take care of you.
And I have to holdall of your toxic material.
I am diminishing the fullness
of my being each time I have to do that.
So I get less and less.
And so could an example of that be, say,
there's a young woman and there's a person
(26:23):
she's attracted to a man, let's say,and he is completely intriguing to her.
But she says, I'mI'm not I'm not good enough for him.
Is that her mother speaking?
In that case,would she be stopping herself
because she's got to protectthat ball of trauma?
Yes. Somewhere in there.
(26:44):
If if that's what she's saying. Right.
I'm not good enoughor if that's the feeling.
And it may be a deep feeling, right?
It may just feel. Like I'm a I don't.
I don't like him.
Sometimes we have to really dig down a bitand sort of go, okay, well, what is it?
Why is it that person I mean, it could beromantic interest, it could be a friend.
It could be a teacher that you just can't,you know, you know something?
(27:05):
Well, we have to dig downand figure out what is that?
Is that an unconscious messageyou're carrying?
That you are somehow not good enough?
Not worthy, not deservingwill never be loved.
You know that.
They'll find out there's somethingfundamentally wrong with you.
So don't even try it.
Because even if you get there,it will fall apart.
All of the ways human beings do themselvesin, right?
(27:28):
Where do we cut ourselves offfrom a potentially happy life?
Success?
Getting something we want.
That's what we call the internal saboteur.
It is sort of the guard.
It says, all right, I know there isa ball of toxin sitting back here.
It was really painful when we got this.
Let's never touch it again.
(27:50):
Yes, it might be giving messagesbut will live with it, right?
You can take the messages. You'll live.
They won't kill you.
And it was originally tryingto save you pain.
Why would we ever go back and put our handon a flaming hot stove? Why?
Why would you do that again?Don't do that.
So it was going to save you initially,but because you now
(28:14):
just have to, you're not touching it,but you've got to listen to and obey.
Master slave.
I've got to obey my master.
My master tells me I'm not worthy.
My master tells me I don't deserveeverything I'm supposed to have.
Now we've got handcuffs,so you get an imprint.
The internal saboteuris going to protect you from it.
(28:34):
It thinks it's doing a good job,but fundamentally,
because it never lets you touch it again.
You are handcuffed and bound.
You are a slave to its messaging.
This is happeningwith every single person.
And for every single person.
It is all we know.
(28:55):
I think a lot of us can't even conceiveof there being anything beyond
that that we are somehow
just suffering through that.
That's just our course.
We don't have a choice.
That's again,I guess part of the master slave story.
What all wanted the whole world to knowis there's a choice.
(29:16):
We now have a way to give you a choice,which is you can look at your dreams,
see the true story of what happened, find
the pieces from the imprint,
all the messages come through them.
Undo them and take the handcuffs off.
(29:36):
So if this is happening to everybody,
and everybody has to be fundamentallyput in the position of being a slave,
I am a slave to take care of my mother.
Parents, right?
First we bring in the mother,but then everybody in the family comes in.
I have to take care of you.
(29:56):
I get crumbs, right?
So I work for you and I.
That's just how it is.
That's all I know.
That's all I know.
I don't think about it right now.
What happens when that's going onwith every single person.
And what will happen is because this isall unconscious, we do not know it,
but this is the templatefor how life goes, how the world goes.
(30:20):
We will go out there and make surewe recreate it, meaning we unconsciously
will get ourselvesinto predicaments, set up situations
that repeat all of this.
And this is what's happening in the world.
Everybody is repeatingall of the unconscious feelings
(30:41):
and experiencesthat they got in the womb, that they got
from the imprint,and they go out and live them.
And so as time goes by,this just becomes a bigger
and bigger ball of traumafor humanity at large.
Right? It's like just rolling into.
Rolling downhill, picking up speed andand collecting volume.
(31:03):
And through the course of time,I suppose there have always
been opportunities for individualsto do something different.
We just haven't had the the technology.
Yeah. That's right.
And now we have the technology. Right.
So he was jumping up and down.
I mean he didn't really jump on mebut right almost.
(31:23):
Oh my gosh. Right. Wait a minute.
Went when it began to become clear
of what this let you now address.
What if you couldby listening to someone's dreams,
albeit very carefully,making sense of them
connected to what they say,trying to build a picture,
(31:44):
an emotional pictureof who this person is, what happened?
What imprint did you get?
What junk?
What trash have you been carrying around?
Assuming it is you?
And what if we could startto diminish that trash and free you.
In the diminishing of the trash throughthe course of listening to the dreams?
And you see what the trash is?
(32:05):
How does the trash then go away?
Is it that you now discuss this like,okay,
that we see thatthat's what your mom was doing?
Does the person who has the dreamthen begin over time to understand.
Wait a minute.
That that thing is not me, right?
(32:27):
And all this time I thought that was me.
Is is that kind of how the trash goesaway?
Yes. There probably many waysin which what you're doing
is making space for the humanbeing sitting in front of you.
Who is covered in marinatingin all of this
negative stuff left over from the imprint.
(32:49):
So yes,every time you make some piece of it
conscious, oh, you didn't knowyou were doing this just like mom.
You thought you were really different,right? To your point.
You had worked so hard tomaybe not do it that way,
or it just wasn't clearyou were doing it that way.
But here it isin the dream says so, right?
(33:10):
And we are looking at dreams.
It could be something,you know, an example of that is sometimes
you will have a person in the dreamand they'll be doing something right.
I was going to the movies and then I metmy friends at the restaurant.
Oh, right. You go, what's the story here?
So sometimes you have to really be asking,well, okay, what were you wearing?
And then it'll come upand I had on my mother's pearls.
(33:34):
I don't even wear those.
Why was I wearing themlittle hints like that.
But it begins to show. Right.
I was standing in my mother's shoes.
I forgot she used to wear those shoesI saw.
That tells us. Right.What's your foundation.
You said I'm standing on my mother.
Okay,now we can start to make that conscious.
(33:56):
Now you can start to say, oh,I didn't know that.
All right,maybe I sound like her sometimes.
Maybe I make her favorite brownie recipe.
But I didn't know that.
Fundamentally,I had formed my life as a copy of hers
because I thought I had to.
I didn't know there was a choice.
I just took in her troubles.
(34:17):
I had to mother her.
So I became her, and I went off on my way.
Okay, but there it is. Right?
So you will begin to get it.
Now, those are very simple.
Sometimes it is trickier to track down.
If you can imagine, there areso many flavors of dreams, right? You.
But you just have to listen to the person.
You have to talk to them and understandtheir life, not just the dream.
(34:39):
I want to hear everything in your life.
Tell me about it all, becauseI want to make sense of who you are.
And mostly not just for me.
I want to do it so I understand you.
I want you to do it so that everythingthat has been hidden to you becomes known.
Then you get to decide.
As a therapist, you you listen to
(35:00):
how your patient describes their life,how they feel about their families,
their friends, the world,what they express to you consciously.
You know, I had the best family.
You know, my mom and dad love me so muchand whatever it might be.
And then eventuallyyou are listening to the dreams.
Or maybe all through the process,you're listening to the dreams and
(35:21):
and then do the dreams
show you what some of theI don't know if you call them lies
or perhaps the bits of traumathat they're basing their reality on.
Right.
And then how hard is itto help your patients understand that
(35:42):
all this that they've been doingisn't really them, and that this thing
that they thought was truthis somebody else's trauma.
That sounds so hard.
You know, there may be parts of itthat are hard.
Yes, we have resistance to a lotof these things, but we also have people
who are coming in generallybecause something didn't go right.
(36:04):
Sure. Right.
So somebody is coming inbecause they want relief.
So there is a part of the personwho is saying, help me, right?
I don't know what's going on or I do find.
Doc, I will listen to you. Right.You know, you're the expert.
All right.
Tell me.
I can decide whether I like it or not,whether I want to come back or not.
Yeah, but let me at least herebecause I'm suffering.
Right?
And so, yes, a lot of timespeople are a little bit shocked
(36:26):
to find out that the storythey told themselves
about where they come from is not accurate
in terms of the way their feelings,their emotional self experienced it.
And then we have to setabout correcting things,
because if you want to cure suffering,
(36:48):
you have to know the truthof how you got there.
You have to know the truth of your life.
The mind likes the truth.
So the more truth you can be pulling outfrom the dreams and saying, okay,
but it sounds like this.
So, all right,if you tell me this, everything was great,
but then you have a dreamthat looks like the apocalypse.
(37:09):
How do we square it?
Let's work together to figure outhow do you square this.
How can we make sense of it.
Right. Ityou know those two don't go together.
No. Okay.
So if you're really fighting methat much on it
meaning this makes so little sense to you.
Don't come back. It's okay.
But most of the timewhat people are saying is.
Oh, but this starts to explain why
(37:31):
I always sat at the back of the classroombecause I felt like
I was the dumbest kid in class.
Oh, maybe I wasn'tthe dumbest kid in class.
And that's a huge moment to shiftthat feeling, right?
It's huge. Right?
And you can imagineeach one of us has something right.
You know, your place where you're like,oh, I'm not good at this.
(37:51):
That's hard for me.
I try not to get in those situations.
I'm sorry.Please don't make me do this. Right.
Well, what if those, as you said,those are really other people's traumas
that you've taken in and made you.
What if we get a chance to peelthat off of you and see who you are?
Then we don't have to walk around.
(38:12):
So we're in this master slave position
and being in that positionalso makes us terribly afraid,
you know, because we
have no controland we are condemned to repeat
all of these pre-birth experiencesfrom the womb.
All of these thingswe got from the imprint out in the world.
(38:34):
You might do it, I might do it.
I'm going to go out there
and make sure if I felt I was dumb,then I'm going to go make sure
somehow I get myself into situationswhere I am made to feel stupid.
I am made to feel incompetent,whatever it is now,
what happens if we're all doing that?
What happens if we set up the world
(38:57):
to repeat our terror,
our fears,our worst feelings about ourselves?
It will do it.
It will do it.
It doesn't mean there aren'tgood things that come in, thank God.
Right?
Like love, we have things that softenthe edges at times, not always right.
Sometimes it is just plaingenocide, War, murder, right?
(39:18):
If we're lucky, we get some softness.
But that's what we're all doing.
We are all out there taking our insides
and putting them on everything.
Now, if you want to fix that,you cannot start out there.
That's not the origin.
The origin is in here.
(39:39):
And if we don't all goin, find this and fix this.
You can never fix that.
We can only make it worse.
You'll make it worse.
You certainly won't make it better.
In each of us.
Then we have to figure out how to dealwith our wars.
Our genocide? Yes.
Where did the murder happen?
Where?
Where did the cheatingand lying and stealing.
(40:02):
Where did something get taken from me?
Internally? Emotionally?
Where do I feel that was done to me?
That then that getsbrought out into the world right now.
And then we have another dilemma.
Our leaders, they all have an imprint too.
They all went through the same experience.
They have to both feel our fear.
(40:24):
We will pick a leaderwho will then take all of this fear
that and upset an awful feelingsthat we are putting out in the world.
We're going to elect a leaderwho will make sure those come true also.
So in a way, that leaderis protecting our ball of trauma.
Well,it is certainly abiding by it, right?
It is abiding by our imprints that saywe're we only get crumbs and the world.
(40:49):
I am only allowed so much good stuff.
Now, do we get some people who sort of,you know, identify with being the king
or the queen, which is really our mothersor fathers, the,
you know, the person with everything.
Well, if you're a fetus who's just takenin all of this, yuck, split yourself up
so that you could take care of thisother person.
(41:10):
Guess who the king or queen is?
That other person? Your parent?
Your mother.
I'm going back to the mothersbecause that's where we start.
I'm going back to the mothersbecause they carry the children
and because they have been mistreated.
So they have had more of this
put into them also forever.
(41:31):
They were the weaker group.
So they're going to have less power,but they're carrying that.
So you want to makethe next generation of babies feel better.
Even if you couldn't go in and analyzeall the dreams, give women all the freedom
and power to make us equal,give women a seat at the table
(41:51):
and you start undoing some of the troublejust there.
Any time as a group,if we are putting women down,
not anybody we're putting down, but womenbecause they carry the babies.
If you are doing that, youguarantee trauma to the next generation.
So we have to stop traumatizing ourselvesover and over and over.
(42:12):
Start treating women equal.
And it seems likethrough the course of time,
there are moments where it appearsto be really important that women
start to have a place at the table,and then we sort of backslide
and that backslide
is that coming from us thinking,wait a minute, wait a minute.
(42:34):
This is a little bit unknown,both for men and women.
I'm not sure we're ready to like,open that door a little bit more.
But it's part of the imprint.
We don't get this.
We don't get to be equal.
We don't get to have everything we want.
We don't get to have a happy life.
We don't get to make the choiceswe want to make.
I don't get to do what I want to do.
(42:56):
I have to be a slave,and we've all got this in us.
So we are all going to act this out,right?
So we may get a little bit and then, yes,the internal saboteur will sort it up.
You're going to break this imprint.
We don't do that.
I told you that was really painful. Stop.
And it's not quite such a nice voice,you know, it gets destructive, right?
(43:18):
You're getting too close. Back up. Yeah.
And then something will happen, right?
It gets undone some forces.
Because there even though this is allhappening at an individual level,
we all come together.
We have a mass unconscious.
So we all have this all going on.
We are all filled with all of this upsetand destruction, and we are putting it.
(43:39):
We're putting it on the world out there.
Now, that doesn't mean thatthat is how it has to be.
If you can start to know that,start working inward.
Go fix it inward, right,so that we are healing ourselves.
We are helping ourselves decidewe need love and what we're really doing.
(43:59):
As we pull out some of this trash,we make more space in our own unconscious.
We stop being our mothers,our fathers, other people as much.
So we are also making more spacein our unconscious for our true selves.
What we get is this beautiful reward.
We get a cleaner connection to spirit.
(44:24):
And that's really what all ofthis is about.
We have to get ourselves backto a full connection with source.
And where does where do we go with that?
Or what does that do for us?
Gets you everything.
If you want to be ableto have a happy life in a peaceful world.
People have talked about that.
For how long?Right way out of world peace.
(44:46):
Okay, well, world peace requireseverybody to clean up their insides,
fix themselves firstin each person, connect back with God.
God is not war and destruction.
Spirit source, God, whateveryou want to call it, it is pure love.
And that pure love is really
(45:06):
the essence of who we are.
Individuals.
Once we're unencumbered.
Yes, we have it in us now.
We are in everything for.
Each and every one of us.
We are part of the divine.
Could we say that you can't
honestly give love to others?
(45:27):
And until you figured outthat unencumbered you?
I would say some people can love,but most of us
are compromised in some way
because the more trash we're carrying,
the less room in our unconsciousthere is for us.
And our unconsciousis the pathway to spirit.
(45:50):
So the more you mess up this pathwaybecause you're not yourself,
the less contact,the less access to pure love you have.
I see, so you might have thiskind of a wall and a little dribble
over here, or it might be fully blocked.
Right. These arethis is what we're looking at.
So you know we're cleaning out.
(46:10):
We are cleansing. We are making space.
We're clearing this. Path. Yes.
We're clearing a path are what we haveto do is get back in touch with source.
When we are in touch with source,when we are coming from
that place of this honest, authentic love.
In addition, then to sort of being ableto give love of that
(46:35):
same ilk, we'realso then able to receive love of that.
Right?
Because so what's happening isif we're still carrying
all of this toxic materialor let's say, enough of it,
the love you give,you may be able to give some.
You probably won't feel you're allowedto receive that much of it.
It's all compromised.
(46:55):
And when it goes out there in the world
and gets enacted, it'sso filled with the gunk, right?
The trash that you know, yes,it comes through.
It's not like we're living in a world
where there, you know, there'snothing good, but it's compromised.
And what it doesn't let us do
is fundamentallyget the political systems, the governments
and the earth right to work for us.
(47:18):
The governments don't really work for us.
At the end of the day,I think most people feel
they work for the rich people,but that's what we set up
because we don't feelwe deserve the right government.
If we felt we deserved it,we would have governments who were scared,
worriedthey would offend us by not serving us
(47:39):
the best way,
by not making sure that theirwhy should anybody in this world be hungry
or not have a home, or be strugglingwith something that they need help
with or need medical careand we don't give it to them?
There is something fundamentallywrong with us, but we care about money.
There's something wrong with usthat isn't a loving system.
(48:02):
No, that's super clear. Right?
But that that is what we have beenbringing.
We have all been bringing it.
We are now tasked with changing
that and saying, oh,but we don't want that world anymore.
Okay, then you have to starton the individual level.
You have to understandthat you are carrying
(48:25):
this imprint,that it will make you destructive.
Fundamentally, it will keep you.
It will make you a slave and keep you
from having the good things,the true love, all of it.
You might get a little too.You won't get it all.
And we have to diminish that.
And then as a group, raiseour consciousness as a group.
(48:47):
Grow up.
Stop being babieswho turn everybody into mothers
and fathers, kings, queens,billionaires, leaders, whatever
it is, we've got them all mixed upbecause we are the little baby slaves.
We've got them all mixed up with parents.
And they're basically operatingfrom their baby space.
(49:09):
That's right.
They'll do what we want them to dobecause they've got the same problem.
They may have a lot of money,
they still have an imprint,and we're all mixed up anyway
because we make them into mothersor fathers, which is really our mistake,
because we make our mothers and fathersinto God.
So our spirit. And it isn't the people.
(49:30):
We have to fix the entire systemand we cannot fix it externally.
We cannot fix the system out there.
That is a creation of what is inside.
Although scary, super refreshingto think that
I can focus on healing myself
in order to really participatefully in humanity.
(49:53):
That's a lot of work and we needa lot of people to be willing to say,
I'm going to take this trip.
I'm going to find outwho I really am, right?
Without the likes of you in our lives,
meaning that we cannot come toyou and sit with you and,
you know, have therapy with you,this still seems so worthwhile.
(50:15):
I think we're creating a spacewhere people can begin to see this
and feel curiousenough about it to find some places
where they can get help,whether it's paying attention,
attention to this podcast,talking amongst their friends,
people can start to pay attentionto their dreams on.
(50:37):
On some level,they'll never get to the place
where they can with you in private.
Yes, all of that.
My hope is that what people will hearis okay, wait a minute.
There'sthere's a way to think about all of this.
There's a way to not have tojust panic and feel this is on both sides.
When one political parties empower,one group of people feels panicked.
(51:01):
Another political parties in power,the other group of people feels panicked.
This is just a hot potato.
We toss it aroundand so one country's at war.
Everybody's scared. What?
What we're really saying is, okay,hold on a minute.
There is a different wayto think about all of this.
We are not going to come up with apolitical system or a treaty or any of it.
It might hold for a while,and then it starts to fall apart.
(51:25):
Bail was fond of saying all empires
and they all tumblebecause it doesn't hold together.
You cannot keep it going.
The destructive forceswill eventually undo it.
So in my mind, really hopeful now
because they've tried to do thatfor thousands of years, it hasn't worked.
(51:46):
Oh, wait a minute.But we haven't tried this.
We haven't triedgetting everybody to understand
they have an unconscious,they have an imprint.
There is a way through your dreamsto understand how your imprint
is crippling you,how it is keeping you a slave,
how it is making you not have a completelyfulfilled life, how it is keeping
(52:07):
you fundamentally from full feelingsof getting and giving love.
And we can change something.
It really is a new opportunity right?
It's a new opportunity.
This is a different technology.
We have plenty of amazing technology,but none of that technology
has changedthe hearts of human beings. No.
(52:28):
It hasn't stopped us from having war.
It hasn't stopped usfrom killing each other.
This can.
And to that end,we can as individuals on some level, begin
to discern the differencebetween our true selves and our trauma
by looking at our dreamsover the course of time and
(52:49):
and thinking about them and feelingthe feelings associated with them.
I don't want to step out of turnin saying that, but I really feel like
this is a new opportunity, and I feel thatindividuals have an opportunity
to begin to open their own doorsto who they really are.
Yes, that'sthe whole idea is first at least.
(53:12):
If nothing else, here's a new idea.
Think about it.
Yeah, just give it a thought that we arecarrying around all of these things
that have done us in all this time,
and that maybe the souls that are here,all of us have decided
this is the time when we don't needto keep doing the same.
We'll maybe we get as a groupa new experience.
(53:37):
What if we get an experienceof connecting to source in a way
that we actually get everythingeverybody says they want?
Everybody wants this amazing fantasy life.
Look at the internet.
It is filled with peopletrying to convince you
they have found this amazing fantasy lifewhere they know how to get it.
They could sell it to you cheap.
Just come on this vacation or buy this,or wear this lip gloss or go on this diet.
(54:01):
But it's what we're all trying to getis this state of being where
you oh my God, it's amazing.
Right?
And I'm not saying that everythinghas to be only that way, but it's
that you have the ability to get thereand it is to connect with source.
And you can't connect with sourceuntil you deal with your imprint.
(54:21):
And in doing so, that process is really
I am imagining, at leastit seems so for me, a life journey.
Yes, but what else are you going to do?Yeah.
I mean, what else could you dothis more important?
Yeah. And more interesting.
It's so you. Get to dig in.
What are these things? Every nightI have a dream.
Sometimes I have a nightmare. Okay, great.
Then it's really important tolook at that one.
(54:43):
You have a nightmare.
I really want to seewhat you're dreaming about.
Because I want to hearwhat you want to tell me.
You need to understand.
To grow your mind,to free your unconscious of trash.
But you're going to tell me every night.
Yeah.
Unknowingly.
I mean, yeah.
Unknowingly, but nonetheless. Yeah.How amazing.
You mean we have this built in?
(55:05):
This is what we're built to do.
Over the course of timethat I spent with Bernard.
Because we loved each other so much,we talked about our dreams incessantly.
I mean, it was his favorite topic.
And to say, of course.
And he knew just what you were saying.
This is what we do.
What else do we doexcept follow this path,
(55:26):
go on this journey,discover who we are as individuals, then
become part of sort of this innate processof, yeah, helping humanity.
And when I began this journey with him,I didn't know anything about dreams.
I dismissed them readily and regularly.
And, you know, I had this great lifeand everything was set up
(55:48):
the way I meant it to be.
And he was, you know, so curious like.
And when
we would talk about my dreams and,and because I didn't come to him
for therapy, he was not my therapist,I didn't come to him with an issue,
I had issues, but I remember just thinkingthat's not what that dream was about.
(56:09):
How does how does he come up with that?
Know that thingI just told you about yesterday?
That was my perfect life.
And you're telling me that's not perfect,but unbelievable.
Through the course of talking about thesedreams, there's no moment.
But eventually I came to say,that's ridiculous.
(56:31):
Really? Really.
I've been doing this for 60 years
and thinking this was the way to do it.
I've believed that thing over therewas my truth and it was the opposite.
I mean, it's just fascinating andso changed the way I get to live my life.
(56:51):
I'm, you know, forever grateful.
Yeah.
But still comes up. Stuff still comes up.
And I find myself, though, on my ownbecause I don't have a therapist.
Right. Thinking about my dreams.
And I'm fortunateto have this past experience with him.
But I can see things.
I can feel things.
(57:12):
I can still find little arteriesthat I need to travel down
that continue to change who I am.
I mean, up until recently,
my father's voicewas still walking around in my head
and I would basically runeverything by him.
Not consciously, unconsciously.
And now I.
(57:33):
I can hear that voice clearlyand I can just say, no, thank you, right?
And don't need to be you.
I don't need youif you've already lived your life
and I don't have to be a slave to you,I don't have to do everything your way.
So I keep your love. That isn't true love.
I mean, just letting go of thatone thing is such freedom.
(57:57):
So that's the whole idea, iswe get freedom.
You know, we gainthat an imprint really is handcuffs.
We don't know it.
You know thatat least you say, oh, I can hear myself
talking to this person most of the time.
We don't know. We're in conversationwith the person.
It's just so innate in us.
Yeah, but we know we can't.
(58:18):
You know, you're not going to.
You're not allowed to operateoutside of that.
Yeah. That's right.
And so you end up in a tiny little box.
Yeah.
Well and it's interestingbecause I don't think I really heard
that voice until, you know,the past few years when it was actually
almost a voice in my headthat I could say, no, no, no, thanks.
(58:39):
See, that's what we want.
We want to start to make that conscious.
So you are knowing that,you know, you're doing that
enough that you now you start to hear it.
It's been there the whole time.
It was just silent and you just thought,oh no, I just really want to go
to this school and get this job and workthis many hours and marry that person.
(59:00):
That's who I am.
That's me.
This is great. And never mind. Right.
Because most of the time then I'm.
I'm having to ignore certain things.
Where do I have tothen put the denial right.
It doesn't feel greator I just don't think about it.
Just this is life.
Don't bother me with these romantic ideas,but there's some amazing
happy life out there.
(59:21):
This is just life.
Yeah. Okay, well there is.
You have to work for it, you know?
So I'm not saying that all of this doesn'trequire work.
It does. It requires a lot.
And it may be at the moment, just evenbeing willing to entertain this idea.
Just what about this idea?
That's a start, right?
(59:42):
As a start that you have an unconsciousand you have an imprint and you have taken
in all kinds of negative feelingsand they work against you.
You know, people understandthe concept of self-sabotage.
This is that on a grand level,an unconscious level
where you don't realizeyou cut off a pathway to something good
(01:00:03):
before you ever get there,because you don't feel you're allowed.
And we do that as a groupand we're going to have to change that.
This is the time it is.
I have to ask youone more thing that you're
so full of all of this information.
You live it, you breathe it.
It's part of who you are.
(01:00:24):
How did you come to this?
Through a lot of hard work.
You know, my father found Doctor bail.
My father's a psychiatrist.
He was doing his training.
He found Doctor Bail, who was workingalready, and he liked what he had to say.
He liked what he thought about.
He really believed in it,brought those ideas home.
(01:00:48):
And I grew up with them.
And then I thought.
I thought, I'll do something else.
Let me go do something else.
I tried other thingsand they didn't hold my interest.
I wasn't also very good at them.
And so it seemed that that I was goingto have to train with doctor bail.
I got lucky.
So you came to Doctor Bail and trained
(01:01:09):
with Doctor Bail, already
knowledgeable of the precious messagesyour dreams had for you.
Already knew dreams were really important.
You know, that was like,yeah, I just, you know, that was.
That was already part of.
That's right.
Then I thought,all right, well, I'll do this.
I had to go to school and study this.
Finally work up my courage to seeDoctor Bail because I saw other people.
(01:01:35):
I think my imprint didn't let me go right
to the person that had all the knowledge.
That was too scary to me,so I had to work my way up there.
But luckily I did.
And I think, you know, that's importantfor all of us to consider that probably
this thing that we need to achieve
(01:01:56):
in order to make us whole is scary.
Yes, it feels scary.
And human beings are fearful creatures.
We are always scared.
We're always scared.
When we separated from source,
I think we didn't understandwhy things happened that we don't know.
What is this?Why did that lightning strike?
It made fire over thereand that volcano erupted.
(01:02:17):
I mean, it's terrifying.
It's terrifying. We didn't understand.
And so because we got disconnected
and we didn't understand things,all of this fear began to build up.
And that,of course, kept us more disconnected.
And we've carried it.
And it builds and buildsand we're all just very, very fearful.
Even those that are brave, we're fearful.
(01:02:39):
I didn't understand anything when I wasyoung, like most young people don't.
I didn't know much of anything.
They said, oh, well, you don't see DoctorBail go to this therapist.
I don't know, the doctorBail would have had time for me anyway.
He was very busy, but it didn't.
In my mind.
I didn't have an imprint thatlet me say no.
(01:03:01):
I want to see him says idea.
Why would I go to somebody else?
It didn't occur to me I had to grow.
Yeah, well, thank you for growing.
Well, and then I got lucky.
So I got to work with him, train with him,fundamentally
learn about myself, figure out
what the hell was going on in there,what was stopping me, what was in my way.
And look, this isn't like you do this and,oh, you know, done.
(01:03:24):
You never. Yeah. No.And you get to keep doing it.
But you know what you're doing,and you have a way
to think about yourself in the worldand what's going on.
So you work through things.
I'm a worker.
I like to. Work,and you become interested in it.
It's almost as if you can't.
And you needed to do all that
so that you could haveall of your patients come to you.
I had to to be a person with everythingpeople go through,
(01:03:46):
so that I can understand what it's liketo be a person going through.
That's right. Thank you.
Thank you, thank youfor letting me talk about all this.
Thank you for letting me share his ideasand and and explain,
hopefully,how people can think about something new
and that we all need to do itso that we can all now decide
(01:04:07):
we do not have to be treated as a groupthe way we've been treated.
And we don't have to treat the earththe way we've been treating the earth.
That both need to happen.
We don't have to be slaves anymore.
So look here.
Look here, it's all in here.
Everything out there is what has been doneto us inside everything.
(01:04:30):
The way we treat the earth iswhat has been done to us inside.
How much trash pollute everything?
Well, we've been polluted.
So of course we're going to do that.
We've been lied to.
Somebody says I love youand then they hate you.
That's a lie. You don't love me.
That's a lie. You.
You may wish it wasn't, but it is. Yeah.
(01:04:51):
And there's a lot of wishing.
But it's interesting how these two thingsmirror each other so, so well.
And you can really start to think aboutwhat's happening in our world,
what's happening.
In me, what happened in me such that me
and all of my brothers and sisters suchthat it is now out there in the world.
(01:05:11):
Who am I to not be able to say anythingabout what's happening in my life,
for example. Right?
Why am I not in charge?
Am I why am I not the master of my ownlife?
I can't do somethingbecause you might not like it.
I'm not talking about killing you, right?
But I can't make a decision for myself.
That feels good to me because I'm worriedit might offend someone.
(01:05:31):
Where does that idea even come from?
Well, here.
Okay, well, we're moving forward, okay?
Which means you're coming backplenty of time.
All right. I'd love to.Thank you so. Much. Thank you.
Thank you for paying attention to us.
It's really important.Come back again soon.
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Intentionally Disturbing
Join me on this podcast as I navigate the murky waters of human behavior, current events, and personal anecdotes through in-depth interviews with incredible people—all served with a generous helping of sarcasm and satire. After years as a forensic and clinical psychologist, I offer a unique interview style and a low tolerance for bullshit, quickly steering conversations toward depth and darkness. I honor the seriousness while also appreciating wit. I’m your guide through the twisted labyrinth of the human psyche, armed with dark humor and biting wit.