Unraveling the Father’s Role: A Journey Through Dreams

In this episode of "And Now, Love," host Cynthia Marks and returning guest Loren delve into the intricate topic of paternal influence in the psyche, exploring a male patient’s dreams centered around his complex relationship with his father. Dr. Loren breaks the assumption that The Mother’s Imprint Theory only involves the mother, but includes the father as a pivotal figure within the theory. Loren presents three powerful dreams from her patient, Glenn, who is grappling with questions of identity, familial patterns, and self-discovery. Together, Cynthia and Loren explore how father figures shape one's inner world and sense of self, how early impressions affect mental health and emotional development, and the challenges of breaking free from inherited patterns. This enlightening discussion encourages listeners to examine their own subconscious patterns and emphasizes the healing power of understanding one’s dreams and personal history.

Episode Transcript

(01:00:02):
(Gentle Music) Hi, my name is Cynthia Marks. I head up
the Holistic Psychoanalysis Foundation
established by my late husband, Dr.
Bernard Bail.(...) Welcome to the"And Now
Love" podcast. Hi, Loren. Hi. So nice to

(01:00:23):
have you back again. Thank you for having
me. Thrilled to talk about some more
dreams belonging to a patient of yours.
This time we're speaking about a
gentleman's dreams. Yes. And he's talking
some, or dreaming some, about his father,
or the interpretation leads us to his
father. Yes. And you've got three dreams

(01:00:45):
to share with us. Okay, let's go.
All right, I thought it
was time that the men get
their equal time. That's right, let's pay
attention to that. Yeah.
Yeah. I think what I'll do is just jump
into the intro, we'll do the sessions,
and get to the dreams.
Okay, and I think maybe we can also say

(01:01:05):
we're so used to the mother's imprint.
Right. It's called the mother's imprint,
but that doesn't mean that
our fathers don't imprint us.
Yes, and that was part of the reason I
wanted to share this particular patient
today, because it starts opening up this
entire idea that it really isn't just the

(01:01:26):
mother. The mother is who the person that
the baby comes, fetus,
comes in contact with first.
So because it happens that way, that
imprint gets laid down first.(...) That
doesn't mean that our fathers aren't
incredibly important. So they're
imprinting us just as much, they are

(01:01:48):
influencing how we develop,(...) often
just as much. Sometimes it's right next
to where the mother's imprint lays down,
so it's very much woven into the fabric
of who the person is. Sometimes it sits a
little further up. But of course that
just depends on the nature of the family

(01:02:08):
and the nature of the relationships. But
fathers are incredibly important, so I
don't want them to feel left out when
we're talking about this. I don't want
all of the people who say, oh, but it was
okay with my mom, my biggest issues were
around my father. And that's often what
people will come in talking about.(...)
And so I think we want

(01:02:28):
to start exploring that.
So the influence a father
has can also be in utero.
Yes. One of the ways that happens is that
the mother's unconscious sweeps in the
father.(...) So she knows this person in
some capacity. And again, we're gonna

(01:02:50):
talk about both, I know you, I have this
relationship with you. And we're also
gonna talk about the unconscious
relationship. Because sometimes people
will say, well, my mother and father
didn't spend a lot of time together. You
can imagine all sorts of situations in
which babies come into being. That
doesn't mean that unconsciously that

(01:03:10):
person wasn't swept in. We may have a
little bit of trouble finding out what is
what if you don't have a long
relationship history or no
characteristics about the person, but it
doesn't mean it isn't there. And often
what'll happen, and I say that having had
experiences where somebody maybe didn't
know a father until well into treatment

(01:03:33):
meets the person. And then you'll start
to see, oh my goodness, I think I do this
just like my father. Or it becomes clear.
So that's a small sample, but I think it
does speak to this idea that the
unconscious is vast. And just because we
don't see it working or don't have what

(01:03:54):
we would normally expect to be enough
information,(...) that it informs the
personality. That's not always true.
And could it be that early on in a
pregnancy, the mother already has a
certain attitude about something that the
father does regularly. I mean, she loves
this man, maybe she doesn't, but he comes

(01:04:15):
home and he always comes home in a
particular mood. And she now is starting
to prepare herself now that she's getting
to know him well enough, like, okay, he's
coming home, and I'm gonna behave like
this to help him through his evening.
Does something as simple as that get
transferred from her to the baby?
Everything gets transferred. So yes, now

(01:04:35):
how much, where you're gonna find that,
you have to wait and see.
Does that become a small blip? Or does
that, as things grow, really become part
of something larger?
And we may see that more. So anything's
possible? Yeah, anything is possible.
Anything is possible. Okay then. Okay, so

(01:04:58):
I am going to give you a little
background on this person, and then we'll
jump into the sessions. This is Glenn,
he's a 67-year-old man who was referred
to me by a colleague who treats his son.
The son was worried that his father's bad
moods might be getting to levels that
would have his father break his 20-plus
year sobriety from alcohol. So he

(01:05:20):
suggested he go talk to someone. He was
really worried about him. Glenn cared a
great deal for his son, trusted his
opinion, and also noticed he didn't feel
like himself. He came to see me and
presented as likable, but you could feel
just a little bit of anger, a little edge
running underneath the friendly exterior.
He had a history of alcoholism. He began

(01:05:43):
drinking heavily in his early 20s while
he was finishing school, building his
business and starting a family.(...) His
alcohol use caused the divorce from his
first wife when their child, the son who
referred him, was around two years old,
very early, and rather than stop the
drinking, he continued, threw himself

(01:06:03):
into work and a string of relationships.
(...) All of this took him away from his
son, whom he would see very infrequently.
Glenn's third wife demanded he quit
drinking, or she would leave, and he
agreed. He stopped, started AA, and
worked hard to repair his
relationship with his son.

(01:06:24):
How old is his son at this point?
Well into his adulthood. I see. The
marriage did not survive, but he was able
to start a new chapter with his son. So
the son was already an
adult, early 20s approximately.
I'm a little careful
because I wanna protect
the identities,(...) but well into being

(01:06:46):
an adult on his own. And he really had
had very little contact with his father,
and his father went through all of what
he went through, was able to stop
drinking, which was no small thing, and
worked incredibly hard to build the
relationship back.
And his son allowed it.

(01:07:06):
The drinking issue didn't affect the son
sort of in the forefront, but affected
the son was maybe not even knowing what
his father was up to, because he didn't
spend enough time with him to know this
torture that was
being felt by his father.
Yes, I think he had some sense of things,

(01:07:27):
and Glenn will talk about a little bit
more of what it looked like, in terms of
his relationship with the son, and really
what wasn't there. He was just off in his
own world, basically. And he was filling
his life with things he thought eased the
pain that he didn't fully understand.
(...) And what we'll see also is that this

(01:07:51):
leaving the son alone,(...) basically,
which is what happened, was really a
repeat in a certain way for Glenn, and he
didn't know that that was happening.
And over the course of his childhood and
being raised, was he
being raised by his mom?
He wasn't, the father was there. So I
think you'll see the twist

(01:08:12):
in why this was actually a
repeat. But I won't spoil it.
All right, I'm on the edge of my seat.
Yes.
The good news was that the son allowed
him back. And I think, given everything
that had happened, that was a pretty big
thing for the son to do.(...) Because he
was really risking
being completely hurt again.

(01:08:34):
He was, I mean, that was an amazing thing
to sort of jump off that ledge.
That's right, and it wasn't easy at
first, but I think, reasonably quickly,
the son opened his heart to him. And I
don't know that it had ever closed,
truthfully. I think he had just been
waiting, waiting. And the father had no
idea how much love was waiting for him.
So Glenn shared with me, he had

(01:08:56):
previously been in therapy around the
time he stopped drinking. And that was
actually a very helpful therapy.(...) I
don't, it certainly didn't go as deep as
he was willing to go now. But it was
incredibly helpful. He stopped drinking,
he cleaned things up, he made his way
back to his son. So in my mind, very

(01:09:16):
successful. So he learned a fair amount
about his history and how it connected to
his drinking, but much more on the sort
of biological level. What he starts
talking about very quickly in this
session shows that in addition to that,
there was so much more. So the main thing
that he felt, and what he starts to tell

(01:09:36):
me about was causing this bad mood, as
the son called it, was that he was
thinking about retiring. And he was
thinking about retiring from running a
very successful business that he built,
even with all of this going on, really
successful in business. And as he thought
about retirement, he felt his anxiety and

(01:09:58):
depression skyrocket.
And he hadn't felt it with that intensity
for years.(...) So he'd been kind of
tooling along and rebuilding his life and
getting things back together, and it sort
of just hit him. He was worried about his
age and how much longer he'd be able to
work the kind of hours running his

(01:10:18):
company required, but terrified that
slowing down would leave him with too
much time on his hands and he didn't know
what to do. Additionally, he had recently
had some health scares that turned out to
be nothing, but they made him think about
how his own father had died of a heart
attack when he was just a few years older
than the patient was now. So it really

(01:10:39):
brought him face to face with his
mortality and his father.(...) He
recounted several stories about his
childhood, which highlighted the fact
that both parents were also alcoholics.
His father would come home from work and
his parents would begin the cocktails,
which often stretched
into drinks with dinner.

(01:10:59):
Frequently, the drinking would lead to
screaming matches between the parents and
Glenn and his siblings, his two siblings
would try to get out of the fray and
retreat to their bedrooms or out of the
house as they got older. They would
just-- Can't deal with it. How can we
disappear out of this room as quickly as
we can and not get caught in anything? He

(01:11:20):
described his father as a very charming
man who was well-liked outside of the
home, but with the family, he could
explode in anger when he felt he was
being neglected or things didn't go his
way. It's pretty controlling.
And that would be with
his wife and his children.
Yes. He was also very successful in
business, and for that, he was

(01:11:41):
well-respected and liked.
He expected the children to make their
parents proud by being obedient, earning
good grades, and being good members of
the community. If the father felt the
children weren't living up to what he
expected, he would be verbally abusive
and often threatened physical violence,
though luckily rarely acted on it, but

(01:12:01):
there was always this threat. He
described his mother as much warmer
than his father overall, and he noted she
often seemed anxious and
totally under the father's spell.
He felt she feared angering her husband
and went along with everything the father
said. He expressed wishing she had stood
up to him more, but understood that it

(01:12:23):
probably wouldn't have
gone well for her if she had,
even though they would argue.(...)
Somehow, there would be moments where the
mother could stand up, but he thought
most of the arguments were that they were
intoxicated and misunderstood each other,
more than the mother really asserting her
own opinions. He spent a lot of time in

(01:12:46):
his life being angry with his father and
feeling he had to protect his mother as
he saw her as fragile and needing it.
Glenn knew that his difficulties with
anxiety and depression were present by
middle school and felt that he had
inherited some bad genes from both his
parents. He also knew that he had a
maternal uncle who had committed suicide

(01:13:07):
and a paternal grandmother who had spent
some time away from the family after her
second child was born, and she was
overwhelmed and unable to care for the
child. All of this, he knew, set him up
for how he felt most of his life, and he
worried that he had
passed it all down to his son.
So he recognized all of this before his

(01:13:30):
therapy with you. Yes.
That's quite introspective.
That was from his first therapy. I see.
Some of these connections, and most of
them were made sort of looking at just
the biological history, that there were,
as he told me, look, there's mental
illness running in the family. He didn't
realize the depth of it. Luckily, he did

(01:13:52):
get a nice view of these relationships
and what happened to the people in his
family. He just didn't get to go deep
enough to see how not only might there be
biological components. There were, no
doubt, enormous environmental components.
(...) Can't do anything about the biology.

(01:14:13):
We can argue that.(...) Another day.
Another day, we'll argue that, but
certainly,(...) you can understand your
environment and then try to make changes
in the environment for yourself going
forward. That's what we're looking at.
But even to think that some of this,
is impressed upon your genes, let's say,

(01:14:33):
that's pretty monumental to grasp that.
Yes. Had Glenn grown up in a different
home and been exposed to different
treatment and something that nurtured the
softer side of him. I think he had all of
the inclination to take that and run. I

(01:14:54):
see. He carried that. I think that came
from the mother. She had a warmer nature.
She got drawn into all kinds of things
that didn't help her, drinking being a
huge one, but I think generally, she was
more sensitive. Father was very smart,
smart guy, but I think the mother really

(01:15:14):
had more of the sensitivity and warmth.
So Glenn said he felt like it would be
good for him to talk to someone and get
himself straightened out again. He knew
he had been hard to be around the last
few months and welcomed some insight into
what he needed to do to change and feel
better. So he knew he had just been hell

(01:15:37):
on wheels. He was so hard to live with
and he was sort of pushing everybody
away. And as his son, I think was right
to worry, was he gonna crash? What was
this? Why did it kind of come on the way
it did and what was gonna happen?
And so lovely that he felt such love for
this man that he
brought it to the forefront.

(01:15:57):
Yeah, and he really trusted his son. And
I think that's probably one of the main
reasons he started with me, Glenn, and
stuck with it. I mean, it wasn't that he
was always on the verge of walking out.
Some people are. I don't think that was
Glenn. I think he actually did like to
learn about this, but it was all kind of

(01:16:21):
new. And I think he would get it and then
not get it and get it and not get it. But
that's normal. He really adapted to the
ideas pretty quickly. It's not that
there's something so hard to adapt to,
but I think it's getting and being able
to hold the ideas, which sounds so
simple. And yet when all of the things

(01:16:42):
you're talking about are so charged,
sometimes it makes it hard for the mind
to hold it. And people will tell me, "Oh,
I know we talked about this. "I can't
quite remember what you said."
Oh, it makes sense that you drift from
that. I mean, it's a big eye opener.
Each step is something big to contend

(01:17:03):
with. And yet you're used to being this
other thing all the time. So that's a
magnet almost, I would think.
Yeah, it is. And I think it's important
to say Glenn was willing to do it twice a
week. So it wasn't just
once, and that's a luxury,
but it gave us two times a week to start

(01:17:25):
to dive into things. So as the mind might
drift, it gets pulled back. Drift, pulled
back.(...) That helps.
Frequency's important.
It's sometimes a strange idea because a
lot of people think, "Oh, you go to
therapy once a week." But if people can
imagine actually how much goes on in your

(01:17:48):
life and how much history has already
occurred, the idea of 45 minutes, 50
minutes to an hour, addressing all of the
things in your life that have gone on.
Out of an entire week. And then out of an
entire week.(...) So it's
kind of a drop in the ocean.
And there's less catch-up, I suppose.

(01:18:09):
Yes. You have things you have to sort of
review if it's once every seven days.
That's right. People come in, "Oh, I
gotta tell you everything that happened
to me, and then we leave this much time."
And I think the more often you can talk,
it lets you, "Yeah, I know what, hey,
give me what happened between yesterday
and today, and now let's get into it."
There's so much that you wanna share. But

(01:18:31):
given that not all of us have the luxury
of therapy, and if someone is curious
about what their dreams can provide for
them, and they kind of
attend to it more regularly,
I had a dream last night, I'm not just
saying, "Oh, that's nothing, I'm gonna
write it down. Maybe I don't have time to

(01:18:51):
think about it now, but I'm going to make
sure I have some way to remember this,"
and you keep doing that.
You stay in contact with yourself often
that way. A lot of people aren't gonna be
able to talk to someone. We know that.
(...) But I hope people really take away
this idea that being in contact with
yourself is so important on an emotional

(01:19:12):
level, and knowing that the dreams have
meaning. They just have meaning. People
don't have to agree with the way I
interpret something, but at least if
people come away with this idea that
there is meaning, we are built this way
to communicate with ourselves, and the
more often we're in
communication,(...) the better.

(01:19:35):
Yeah, and I think you and I and lots of
other people really know that that dream
has meaning, but a lot of us think we're
nuts,(...) because dreams are nothing.
They're just, they can't even tell you,
some people can't say what they are, they
just know that they're nothing, but I am

(01:19:57):
impressed that you have the courage to
keep going with this, because there are a
lot of people who are adamant that we're
just barking up some kind of silly tree.
Well, that's okay.
Not everybody has to agree or believe
that this is true. That doesn't mean it
isn't. I say it not just to say, well, I
know best, and you have to listen to me.

(01:20:17):
I just say it after being immersed in
dreams for many, many years, and
listening. Every session, I
listen to at least one dream.
And you started with your
own in your own therapy.
And I started with my own in my own
therapy, and I know that they had
meaning, and I saw how they detailed the

(01:20:38):
emotional experiences of my life. I saw
it. I don't ask my patients to do
anything I haven't done myself, so I have
submitted to the process,(...) and gone
through and said, okay, I don't know what
this means, let me work it out. So let's,
we'll jump into it, because I think
you'll see Glenn at the beginning of his

(01:21:00):
treatment. He's a few months in. He's
kind of just getting the lay of the land,
and he's doing just what we're talking
about, sort of figuring out how does this
relate to me? He comes in for this
session, and he says, I've been worried a
lot lately, as you know. I'm worried
about whether I should retire or keep
working, and then whether I really have

(01:21:21):
enough money to retire.(...) I've been
pretty good about setting us up to be
able to do this, but I keep going back
and forth in my mind. I'm also not sure
it will be good for me. I try to imagine
not having the structure of work to keep
me going, and I don't know
what I would do without it.
I don't think I see myself driving around

(01:21:43):
in an RV or golfing all day. I like
working. I like being busy and feeling
productive. I guess at the root of it,
I'm scared I'll start drinking again.
It feels crazy to say that after all
these years, but I'm scared.
It's been making me irritable, and
Jeanette, his long-term partner, is

(01:22:04):
probably going to throw me out because I
have been all over her.(...) I know it,
but I can't stop it. I'm bothered by
everything. I don't even want to be
around me. She suggested we go to couples
counseling, but I don't know if I'm ready
for that. I feel like that might mean
we're too far gone. I want to be with

(01:22:25):
her, but I'm also so frustrated by her. I
thought I had worked through a lot of
this years ago. I was a real asshole for
a long time.(...) I was selfish and
didn't want to listen to anyone. It
really got me into trouble with everyone,
and I worked hard to clean it up, to
clean up myself, but here it is again.

(01:22:46):
I'm being mean, and I know it. I make
snide comments, I ignore her
requests, I withhold affection.
I can be a piece of work, and I know it,
but I still do it. I can't stop myself. I
don't want her to leave, but I act like I
don't want her to stay, as though I'm
doing her a favor by being with her. So

(01:23:07):
he's pretty honest. Yeah. And he can see
himself pretty well, which is nice.
That's unique. That's a great quality. So
I asked him, "If you see it, why do you
think you can't stop it?" And he said,
"That's a good question. It just rolls
off my tongue." And then I let it sit
there. I don't take it back. And I said,

(01:23:29):
"Well, where do you think you'll learn to
speak to people like that?"
And he said, "That one's easy, my father.
If you think I'm bad,
you should have heard him.
He would go at my mother and all of us,
and it was horrible. He would be
perfectly fine at work, and when we were
out, but when we got home, if he didn't
like something one of us said or did, he

(01:23:51):
would be relentless.(...) He would berate
us. He would start drinking and that
would really keep it going. It was very
unpleasant, and I don't think I was ever
that bad, but maybe I was."(...) And I
said, "So in this way, you're him.(...)
You start speaking and it's your father
talking." And he said, "That's
interesting, and I guess

(01:24:12):
it is, and it's strong.
It just flows out of me and I feel like I
can't stop it, or really it just feels
like it's me. But as you say that, I can
see how much I sound just like him. I
feel like I knew that on some level, but
hearing it just makes me stop(...) and

(01:24:32):
really have to look at it." I asked him
if he had a dream, and he did.(...)
Here's the dream.(...) I'm at work and I
walk into a building, and it's an
atrium-style building.(...) It's night
and very dark inside.(...) I'm not sure
how I can really see, but somehow I can.
(...) I wonder if it's been abandoned, but

(01:24:56):
I see things that let me know people
still work there. I see some signs on the
walls. I don't know what they are
pointing to, or if there's something
about them that is unusual,(...) maybe
the color or the shapes, but
I can't make them out anyway.
I remember standing against the railing,
looking into the atrium from the second

(01:25:17):
level.(...) I just had my hands on the
railing. Maybe I was gripping the railing
and looking around, and I could feel that
I was scared,(...) and then I just woke
up. So as I always do, I ask someone to
tell me whatever thoughts come to the
mind about the dream.(...) Just there's

(01:25:39):
no right or wrong, just see what starts
to come. So he starts telling me about
the building. He didn't know it, but he
felt like it was a pretty standard design
of a certain era, where there are three
or four floors and a center atrium that
you can look over from each floor. I
think I'm on the second floor, but I have
no idea how I might have gotten up there.

(01:26:01):
(...) It's dark, it seems like it is late
at night, and I'm the only one there. I'm
walking around looking for something or
someone, but there isn't much to it.
The last thing I remember is looking out
over what would be the first floor and
holding on to the railing. That's about
all I have. I think there was some

(01:26:22):
silence, and I did ask him, was there a
feeling in the dream? He said, I'm not
sure. I was just looking around, maybe
anxious, scared at the end, but nothing
that strong stands out.
Now, when he told me the dream, he said,
I got scared, and then I woke up.
So there was a big feeling. I think he

(01:26:44):
caught it, but it's minimized
a bit. I think it did waken.
So I said, what do you think you're
looking for? He said, I'm not sure about
that either. I feel like it might be a
person, but I'm not sure at first that
there are people there, and clearly
there's no one there at that hour.

(01:27:04):
I'm just looking out
over the lobby, I guess.
It's very dark, and I don't have a
flashlight, so there must be some dim
lighting coming from somewhere.(...)
Maybe the signs, but again, I'm not
really sure. What kind of signs?(...)
They could be something you would see
around an office, maybe an exit sign or a
restroom sign, but I remember thinking

(01:27:26):
that there was something off about them
or unusual in some way.(...) I'm sorry I
can't be more specific than that. I think
I just noticed them, but that's about it.
We had some more back and forth, but what
I said to them was, it sounds like the
fear of retiring has a lot to do with
retiring from living your father's life.

(01:27:47):
Your dream's saying that you've had to be
in the dark about who you really are, so
losing the structure of running the
business and being the boss like dad is
very scary.(...) In the dream, you wonder
if the place is abandoned. Said, I think
the place is you, and you were
emotionally abandoned early on. You were
left alone, and neither parent was fully

(01:28:08):
capable of parenting, of supporting you
and developing your true self.
Retirement brings up all of your very
early fear(...) about both fundamentally
being alone and not knowing who you
really are. Early on,
you solved it by being dad,
and it sounds like you're falling back on

(01:28:29):
that now, being him more than you were
before, and his words show,
his words now flow out of your mouth, so
you won't be alone, you've got him with
you. So it was a pretty big
interpretation.(...) That's a lot. Yeah,
maybe looking back, I might've chunked

(01:28:50):
that up for him a little better, but I
wanted to capture and speak to what he
was telling me about. If I'm going to
retire,(...) I'm gonna have to leave my
dad, and I've used my dad to shore myself
up. I've been him all these years. All
these years. Got me into a lot of
trouble, but it was better than being

(01:29:11):
alone,(...) because if I was alone, I'd
have to face not having
any idea who I really was.
He's managed to occupy himself enough to
not ever have to face that, and now what
do you do when there's nothing to occupy
you? Right, you panic. And so how did he
receive this big dose

(01:29:32):
of information from you?
He said, "I hear you, and it's a little
strange "because I want to argue and say
that I am me, "but somewhere I feel like
there's something to it. "I think it's
part of the reason "I go from
relationship to relationship.
"I don't like to be alone. "I'm not sure
that it's from my childhood, "but I also

(01:29:53):
wouldn't say that it didn't start there.
"There was a lot that was
wrong with my childhood."
He sits quietly for a few minutes.(...) I
wait, and then eventually I ask him,
"What is he thinking about?"
And he said, "I just had this thought
"that maybe both of my parents were
drinking all the time, "and I wonder how

(01:30:13):
often I was just left alone.
"Left alone in the middle of the night.
"I have some fuzzy memories of being very
scared at night "and not wanting to sleep
alone, "but that seems so common "that I
never really made much of it,(...) "but
maybe there's more to it. "More to the
ways we had to conform "to what my father
wanted, more to everything."

(01:30:35):
But all of that was just his normal. He
never thought that other families weren't
doing the same thing.
Yeah, I think he had some inklings. It
wasn't as though he thought we had this
idyllic child.(...) But I don't think he
realized how all of the pieces, and there
were a lot of pieces, fit together and
started to form this picture of what life

(01:30:57):
must have really been like in the house
if one were allowed to see it. And that's
one of the big pieces, is that in the
dream he's to be in the dark. "I don't
know how I'm even seeing," he says.
Whereas there must be just a little bit
of dim light coming through.
Right, and it's maybe an exit sign, but

(01:31:18):
you can't really tell.
Maybe it's a restroom sign, maybe it's a
who knows, right? But if you're in the
dark, you can't read the signs. Yeah. And
I said, "Well, I'm sure there is more to
everything." The dream shows that there
was a feeling of being all alone and that
you were to be in the dark about it. It
would be very scary to know that your

(01:31:39):
parents weren't up to the job of being
parents. Maybe those are the signs you
can't or weren't supposed to read. He
said again, "I don't know what I thought
of it back then,(...) but I feel it when
you say it. It almost makes me wanna cry,
so it's touching on something. I know you
hit on something." And

(01:31:59):
that's where we stop the session.
So it starts to give pretty early on a
picture(...) of how he
had to become his father.
And how we desperately protect what we
know even if it isn't healthy for us.
It's what we know and we just have to

(01:32:22):
survive in that situation.
Yeah, he looked at his parents and went,
"All right, what are my choices?" This is
what I've got to deal with.
He went, "I'll go with Dad."
These two people aren't in good enough
shape to help me figure out who Glenn is.
He wasn't going to get that.(...) But if
he looked at Dad, he could say, "All

(01:32:42):
right, this guy runs the family. He's
well-liked and respected. Maybe he's not
so nice to us, but I don't think that
that really,(...) I mean, this isn't a
conscious choice anyway." He just went,
"This is the way to survive."
He's in charge, so that's what he did.
And he jumped into being his father. And

(01:33:04):
his life looked very much like his father
in a lot of ways, but just as he was
abandoned, meaning the parents were
there. So you're abandoned on one level
because they're drinking. If they're
drinking, how present can they really be?
But second, they never attended to
Glenn's feelings.(...) Nobody sat down

(01:33:24):
with Glenn to say, "How are you doing?
(...) What do you imagine you want to be
in your life? How are you putting that
together? What can we do to support you
in figuring out who you really are? You
know, as a lot of you better get good
grades, I want you to be successful,"
which passes as I care about you and your
life, but they never really talked to

(01:33:47):
Glenn to see who Glenn was. Didn't enter
their minds. It didn't occur to them
because nobody had ever
done it for them either.
And that's a pretty common scenario,
isn't it? Incredibly common,
but then you're abandoned. Yeah. Right,
so he felt abandoned and then interesting
that he goes along and abandons his son.

(01:34:08):
So in that scenario, his son was him,
(...) right? He identified with the son
and then did what was
done to him. He walked away.
So in this dream and through this
interpretation and what he felt about
that, he really discovered how much he
was his dad or like his dad.

(01:34:30):
And then he continues to have some dreams
that furthered that point that help him
sort of have some
success in clearing this up.
He's gonna have to dream about this a
lot.(...) Because you want to do that,
you wanna chase it down. I mean, he's
gonna dream about whatever he's gonna
dream about. That doesn't mean he didn't

(01:34:50):
dream about his mother. It doesn't mean
he didn't dream about all kinds of
things. But one of the things that
brought him in was, if I retire, I don't
know who I am.(...) And if I don't know
who I am, I am completely destabilized.
(...) And what happens to me? What am I
gonna feel? How am I gonna
solve this? What do I do?

(01:35:11):
It was pretty fantastic that he was able
to come in and get to this.
You wanna get to this, right? Because
otherwise, either he gets forced into
retirement, something happens like this
health scare or something, and he falls
apart. So at least here we say, okay,
hold on, slow this down. Let's get the
lay of the land and figure out why this

(01:35:31):
is worrying you so much. And there's a
certain amount of retiring for everybody
that may be run of the mill anxiety. It's
a major stressor in life. It's a shift of
a life phase and role, and you can
reassess whether you were productive
enough and what's this next stage. And I
think there's a lot to be thought about,

(01:35:53):
and most people are going to go through
that. And then this, which felt much
deeper. And luckily his son caught it,
and then talked to Glenn and he could
kinda go, yeah, I am going through
something. This does feel bigger than
just stress. He had been through life
stressors before. He'd had divorces, and

(01:36:15):
it didn't do to him what this was doing.
(...) Yeah, he had managed to sort of
keep, he learned to behave well.
He wasn't well behaved early on. He was
nasty to people. When he wanted to not be
that way, he didn't wanna run around
making everybody feel bad.

(01:36:35):
And he recognized it when he was.
Yes, I think that took some time. There
was help. I think he had a lot of
community support so he could start to
look around and go, oh, this isn't how
you talk to people. This isn't that nice.
Right, and he was so clear about what he
was doing to his wife.
Yes, he started to see that, and just

(01:36:57):
know he was impossible to be with. I
mean, she stood by him, I think, because
she had also seen this other side. And
look, he, I think, always had an edge. He
still has an edge. I don't think that
this is, I feel it less when it used to
be it coming every time, and I think,
gosh, is he, hmm, is he angry with me?
And then it sort of clicks, oh, this is

(01:37:20):
just how he goes through life.
Well, that's so far extremely
enlightening, and thank you.(...) So
we're gonna talk about two
other dreams from Witter-Glens.
Yes. Yes, so we're gonna get a look at
what Glen looks like,(...) let's say
about 15, well, 12 to 15 months later.

(01:37:42):
The other piece I wanna go through is,
Glen is obviously male,
and it doesn't mean that women don't
become their fathers.(...) And I really
wanna say that, because that is
incredibly common, and vice versa. Bail
would say it's more than an
identification. There are lots of ways in

(01:38:02):
which we identify with people in our
lives. We're like them, and then there
are ways in which we are them. And that's
really what an imprint does to you. It
makes you that person.
That's a really hard concept to grasp,
and to grasp the
difference between those two things.
Yes, and we can talk more about that,
maybe at the end of this, but I'll get

(01:38:24):
into the dreams, because what Glen is
talking about at that point in the
treatment is changing.(...) And so I'll
let you hear what the mind does with the
idea of changing, because that was one of
the things that scared him when he first
came in, is he was facing a place where
he might have to change. If he retired

(01:38:47):
from his career, but really from being
his father,(...) what does it look like?
Right, so that was
already, we saw what a change did.
Yeah, and he's going to have to change.
It seems like he was already coming to
terms with that. Here is this moment,
(...) something's gotta give.
Yeah, he was coming to terms with the

(01:39:08):
idea of retiring. I think he had no idea
that retiring had, his upset had little
to do with stopping work(...) by
comparison to what it had to do with
stopping being his father,(...) right?
That was the big thing. That's the big
place he had to change. And that change
required assessing the personality and

(01:39:31):
saying, I have no idea who I am, right?
We're back to that primary question,
basic question, which is who am I? And
have I gotten a chance
to be me in this lifetime?
But it's so great. He was fortunate
enough to have this red flag(...) and act

(01:39:52):
upon it, and even have his son who loves
him so much say, hey, dad, there's a
little out of control here.(...) And that
he was able to see that, not knowing that
it would bring him to this,(...) but
desperate to make sure he
could make himself okay.
Yes, and luckily he had a prior therapy
experience, and though it was a very
different therapy, it was good for him,

(01:40:14):
right? So he came with a positive
feeling.(...) Sometimes people come and
say, oh, God, I had awful therapy or I've
had none and this is so foreign to me and
I don't know.(...) That little bit,
though many, many years prior(...) helped
carry him into this as well. So he had a
lot of things working for him. His

(01:40:34):
guardian angels were-- It sounds like it.
Heavy lifting for him, but they got him
there. And then it was his choice to
stay,(...) right? He didn't have to stay.
He could have come and talked to me a
couple of times, thanks, lady, see you.
I'm better, I'm not, I'm done. Whatever
it is, but he didn't, right? So in that
way, luckily there was a little bit that

(01:40:56):
wasn't so totally father that he couldn't
stay. I don't know that
his father would have stayed.
So we're a little over a year later and
he's been coming and he's talking to me
and I bring this up because it does, it
hearkens back to the early sessions in a
certain way, but you'll see. So he says,

(01:41:17):
I'm meeting with my attorney tomorrow and
I'm getting some things in order. I think
we can put together a plan to sell the
business, but I would stay on and run
things as I told you about. I think it's
a good balance. If I can slow down a
little, not put so much pressure on
myself to do everything and learn to
delegate more, I should be able to keep

(01:41:39):
working, but in a way that's not so
intense. It all felt so black and white
to me before. There was no middle ground,
so now I'm starting to find that. I'm
heading out of town this weekend.
Jeanette and I are going to drive up the
coast and spend a few nights and try to
reconnect. She thinks I'm much more
tolerable now, so she's willing to travel

(01:42:00):
with me. She said she'd do it, but if the
old me comes back, she'll get her own
room and I can find a ride back home
myself. I hear her and hopefully it will
be a nice getaway. I wanna do something
special for her. She really put up with a
lot of shit and I'm not sure why she did
it, but I'm very grateful. My son and his

(01:42:20):
girlfriend are going to meet us for a
night. He is another person that I really
feel lucky to have stand by me. He didn't
have to and it has meant everything to me
that he loved me enough to forgive me. I
really put him through it too. I wouldn't
show up when I said I would. I miss
birthdays and Christmases. It just breaks

(01:42:40):
my heart when I think about how I hurt
him. I miss so much time with him and so
much of his life.(...) I don't think I
can really make it up to him, but I try
every day.(...) I do think he's happy
now. He has this relationship and for the
first time in his life, I think he feels
loved. I know he has worked for it and
that also keeps me going in therapy. I

(01:43:03):
feel like I owe it to him to be a better
person. He said, I know you're going to
ask, so I'll tell you my dream. In the
dream, I'm with Jeanette and my son and
possibly his girlfriend and we're walking
down a tree-lined street and I have no
idea where we're going, but as we get
further down the street, I see this house
and a garden in front.(...) I'm sort of

(01:43:25):
drawn to it, but I have no idea why. It's
a reasonably large front yard with grass.
On one side, there's a path that leads to
the front door and the other side is
planted with all kinds of trees and
plants and flowers. I have no idea what
kinds, but there are a lot and I see this
grouping of flowers, yellow, maybe some a

(01:43:46):
little orange and there are a lot of them
in one area and then I see that they're
spread throughout the garden and I just
feel like I need to get them out of
there.(...) I start cutting them. I just
chop out the whole garden. I go after
everything. I flatten it all. All that
remains are these little
stumps or roots of the flowers.

(01:44:08):
I think I also start just hacking away at
everything, the rocks, maybe even into
the side of the house and I do it until
I'm exhausted and I feel like I've done
it. I wake up and then go back to sleep
and have another dream. In that dream,
I'm at a party. It must be a nice home, a
large home and it's half inside and half

(01:44:28):
outside in the back garden.
I go out of the house and pass through
the crowd of people. I walk by a pool and
I seem to be intent on heading to the
back gate and I go through it and exit. I
end up in a driveway and I see my car and
I get into it and I start changing my
clothes but I put on this outfit that

(01:44:50):
might be a little strange and not really
something I would wear. It is a suit in a
pale color, maybe beige. I put it all on
the pants, a shirt and jacket and I think
I'm going to go back to the party but I'm
not sure whether I do because I wake up.
It was not a great feeling.(...) I felt
like maybe I had put on something very

(01:45:12):
ugly, something I shouldn't have. Then I
ask him for his thoughts about the dream
and he's going to go through both, both
dreams. And he says, "In the first dream,
I didn't know where I was in the dream
but when I woke up, I thought it must be
sort of like my childhood home." It was
roughly the same design and we didn't
have a garden in the front like that but

(01:45:32):
we had one in the back that was similar.
The flowers that I have to cut down are
definitely ones that I remember.(...) My
mother loved the garden and it was one of
the things my parents really liked to do
together. They would spend hours figuring
out what to plant then planting it and it
just makes me think of them. So am I just
going crazy and trying to cut it all

(01:45:54):
down, level it? And I said, "Well, are
you?" And he said, "After everything
we've talked about, the alcoholism, the
abuse, the constant fear and anxiety to
perform, I would say, "Why wouldn't I
want to level it all?" Before we started
talking, I just thought I was unlucky
genetically.(...) But as we go over
everything, I can really see that I

(01:46:14):
didn't have a chance.(...) None of us had
a chance. My parents were both just so
damaged.(...) I used to make excuses for
my father, like he was just stressed and
he provided us such a good life that I
would excuse the bad behavior
but I can't now. I can see that it really
did real damage. Both of them did damage

(01:46:38):
in different ways. I think my mother was
softer but her drinking and not being
able to stand up for us was incredibly
disappointing and the way he treated her
was enraging and made us all rush to
protect her. I can see now that it
changed who we were. I don't even know

(01:46:58):
who we would be if we hadn't grown up. If
we had grown up in a different family, a
different environment. So I asked, "So
can these plants grow back "or does that
kill them?" He said, "That's a good
question. "I'm not a plant person but I
suppose it would be better "to dig them
all up too, not just leave the roots

(01:47:18):
intact." And I said, "That's what I was
thinking. "If you're going to do it,
let's get the roots out too "so they
can't grow back." Then I
asked him about the second dream.
He said, "I think I'm back at a very
different version "of my parents' house.
"This is the one that they moved to
"after we all grew up and left the house.

(01:47:39):
"It's larger, has a pool. "It was a big
move for them and I think they liked it
"but I never considered it home." And I
said, "So what are you doing there?" And
he said, "It's a party and I'm actually
dressed fine, "I think, so I'm not sure
why I go to change. "I'm walking through
the party and I see people I know, "I
think and I'm socializing "but definitely

(01:48:01):
making my way through the party "towards
the back gate. "It's a little bit of a
different layout "but generally this is
the idea.(...) "There was extra parking
behind the garage "and that's where this
gate lets you out.(...) "I go to my car,
well, the car that's mine in the dream.
"It's like an SUV that I've never owned

(01:48:21):
"and it has room for me to go inside and
change "into this suit. "Again, this is
not an outfit I would wear." And I said,
"Well, who would wear it?" And he said,
"I don't know. "It's nice enough but
maybe not something "I've worn before,
maybe a little fashion forward for me "or
just unusual for me "but I seem intent on
putting it on. "I change and then I

(01:48:43):
believe I plan "to return to the party."
(...) And I said, "So how do you feel
you've changed?" And he said, "All right,
so that's the idea here, "all right, that
I've changed?" And I sort of shrugged as
he looked at me and he said, "I have
changed. "I'm less angry and more able to
control myself. "I don't lash out at
Jeanette or my son or anyone really.(...)

(01:49:06):
"I still get angry but I
feel much less volatile.
"I think other people feel it too, I hope
they do. "Jeanette says I'm a lot better
"but she is also worried that I might go
back at any time "so I don't think she's
settled into it yet." Then he says, "Why
do you think I make it a suit "I don't
feel comfortable in?" And I said, "I

(01:49:28):
think you're doing something "you weren't
supposed to do, you're changing(...) "and
working on becoming more yourself.
"If you say you don't like it, "maybe
your internal parents won't be alerted
"that you do actually like it "and intend
on leveling them inside of you."
And that's where we left it.

(01:49:48):
Unconsciously then, there's still this
need to protect his parents.
Yeah, he's going to protect the whole
situation. Even at the beginning, you'll
catch that he tells me about retiring,
he's sort of making a bargain. All right,
I'm gonna sell it but I'm gonna stay on
and run it. Now, the man's entitled to

(01:50:10):
make a living, we're not gonna say, "All
right, you have to stop everything." But
I think there it's really a compromise.
I can take sort of a
step but not the full step.
Right, so I'm leaving but I'm not really
leaving.(...) Okay, I didn't even address
that in this session because first what
I'm gonna address is that unconsciously
he feels the change.(...) Then we'll come

(01:50:33):
back and pick up whatever this
negotiation is about staying on the
business, how much you're gonna stay,
Dad. But first things first. So I'm gonna
tend to where the dream went here.(...)
We can argue about that technically.
Yeah, but you kind of have to follow that
path because if you don't, then there's

(01:50:54):
like a little jink in the armor, you
can't kind of successfully
keep going with it.
Given the time of a session, I've gotta
wanna go through the dreams and I wanna
get at what he's dreaming about because
that's where the unconscious went. Now,
it also was telling me because it's the
first thing he says in the session is
like, "Hey, listen, here's my
compromise."(...) Okay, then he tells me,

(01:51:16):
"But I am working on this. "I'm working
on changing.(...) "I'm not supposed to
like the change yet. "I'm supposed to not
fully level it. "I've gotta leave the
roots. "They're
probably gonna grow back."
But there's some safety in
not completely destroying that.
That too, so your safety, so he will
never fully be alone. If the roots, if

(01:51:38):
everything's left and it could grow back,
you don't have to make
that complete commitment.
What if my change
really doesn't do it for me?
That's right, he hasn't settled in yet.
Of course he hasn't settled in yet. He's
been his father for years and years and
years and it worked more or less in a
way. It didn't work, life was a disaster.

(01:52:00):
But in his mind, it got him a job, a
career. The picture looked good. The
picture looked good. So that's what he's
doing, but he's changing.(...) So you
want to both address that because that's
no small thing, even to go and let your
feelings out and you're gonna cut down
this garden and beat in the side of the

(01:52:20):
house and bash the rocks and start doing
what you're doing. And you're bringing,
he brings this group with him. That group
were parts of himself. So everybody's now
going to go. That's good. That's a big
deal. That's progress. That's a big deal,
that's changing. In my mind, that's not
unreasonable time. That's pretty nice

(01:52:41):
timing actually that you go from saying
I'm completely my father and he's hell on
wheels and okay, I'm, oh, but I can pay
attention to what you tell me. Okay, I
don't like being him. I'd
like to be something else.
Then he goes, he's still at his parents'
house, at the party, where are you going?
To the party, my parents' house. So how

(01:53:03):
much can you really change if you're
still at your parents' house having the
party? But we'll take it, it's a good
start. I go right through the party, I
know where I have to go. I've gotta get
in my car. His car, I mean, it's not his
car, but it's his car in the dream,
right? It's a car he's never had, that's
right. He's never had a self.

(01:53:23):
So he's saying there's
emergence of a new car.
And it's big enough that he
can make the change in the car.
That's right. It's big enough to now hold
things. So the mind is growing, so he can
start changing. He's not gonna like it.
The parents in him don't like the change.
They would, ugh, hate the suit, in other
words, right? And he doesn't want to

(01:53:47):
signal that he's changed all that much
either, right? Oh, I'm still here at the
party. Don't worry, Mom and Dad, nobody's
left, right? Because if
he leaves, they might be
upset with him. And I'm wearing this
unusual thing, but I'm still here.
But I'm coming back into the party in it,
or at least that he thought was the plan.
We don't know what he
does, but that's the idea.

(01:54:09):
So Glenn, is he unusual in that he's such
a good listener and reporter of what's
going on inside him? I feel like his
connection with you for him, he
appreciates that this time, this analysis
is really benefiting him and bringing him
around to who he
really is. Is that unusual?

(01:54:32):
Yeah, it just depends. Some people are
like that. Some people are going to fight
you more. Some people you think, gosh,
you keep coming, and I can't tell whether
you like this or not. That has to do with
how they were treated, who were their
models, who are they being like, who

(01:54:52):
acted that way in their life. And
sometimes it doesn't mean that some deep
part of them, I mean, I assume for the
most part, because people have to pay me,
they're not coming there because they
feel they're getting nothing. Though of
course we probably could all say we see
those kinds of patients too, but they're
not allowed to sort of lap it up or they

(01:55:14):
can't show all the parents inside of them
that they really do like this, so they
have to keep putting it down or keep
making it, no, I don't think you're
quite, no, you don't know
what you're talking about.
But I'll be back next week. But I'll be
back next week. So then we're just
working to sort of analyze that, like,
all right, well, what keeps you coming if

(01:55:35):
it doesn't feel like I'm getting at your
experience? Again, most of the time, if
you really feel I'm missing you that
much, you may not come, but you might.
And we have to analyze that and see
because his mother was warmer and he
doesn't want to be alone, those are
important pieces for him. I don't know

(01:55:57):
what it would look like if I were a male,
because that would be a different
dynamic.(...) You'd probably, you know,
you just continue to analyze it. It just
may, I don't know whether he would have
settled in as quickly, but I think
because he had that feeling about his
mother, that could also carry him into
the treatment the way the prior therapy
did. So some of those things, there was

(01:56:18):
like he was primed(...) to at least have
conditions be there that supported him
being able to stay. And he was motivated.
He didn't want to be alone. He didn't
want to lose his son or Jeanette. Whom he
both love. I think they would say that is
starting to grow more. I see. But I think

(01:56:38):
yes, he was really trying to love in the
best way somebody who didn't get love
could do it. So, you know, sometimes it
was very awkward. It wasn't what most of
us would say, oh, okay, that feels just
so warm and delicious and loving. Right,
that's love. That's right. But he was
really trying. And I think that's what

(01:56:59):
comes through with him. So that piece is
unusual that I think he, boy, he was
gonna do his best to fix himself so that
he could be better for
the people around him.
And that that was somehow motivated by
the love he felt for those
people. Was that unconscious?
I think it was pretty conscious to him. I

(01:57:20):
think he felt a lot of guilt around his
son. And I think he really liked his son
on top of just loving him. I think he
liked him as a person. And I think he
felt these two people had stuck by him.
And I think he needed whatever those
tests were that he sort of put them

(01:57:40):
through. I think he needed to see that
this was something that existed.
People loved him. They stuck through this
horribleness of him.
They tolerated him. They must love me.
And luckily he could stop testing them so
much. If you find people who are doing
that, stop testing. Give them a break.

(01:58:02):
They're sticking with you. Let's not,
right? But again, how much do you have to
be alone,(...) emotionally or actually,
given how you were raised? And what will
you recreate in your relationships? He
did abandon this son for a long time. And
why the son was willing to take him back

(01:58:23):
because the son only will know that
reason, that his heart didn't turn to ice
and he didn't cut him out. And then he
didn't go and repeat the same thing.
Glenn was worried. Did I pass the genes
on? But luckily it
seems no, not in that way.
And so Glenn is still with you and he's

(01:58:44):
been with you for several years.(...) And
how is he doing now? He's still working.
He's still working hard. He's still
working in treatment. And that's where he
found the understanding of what the
actual work was really all about was he's
getting to work on himself. He's starting
to bring light in, turn up those dim

(01:59:04):
lights on who he really is.
For some of us, this kind of interaction,
this precious interaction with you or
someone like you, which there are many,
it could be a lifelong journey.
Yeah, and look, he started at 67, right?
Then people go, oh, why are you starting

(01:59:25):
then? Too late, not too late for him. Why
shouldn't he start? For sure. What is
this idea that, how could you ever be too
old to figure out who you really are and
get to know yourself in that way? There's
all of these things that he just assumed
were him. He didn't feel them as
different. And now he's starting to get

(01:59:48):
some space and they're going, oh, but I
don't think that was me.
So he's finding, coming to life in all
these ways, but also he's doing it and he
says this for the people around him also.
That's part of what kept him going. There
were some times in therapy where, should
I keep doing it, especially when you

(02:00:08):
start changing? There's a lot of
resistance that can come up. But he knew,
wait a minute, I need to do this because
the people around me also benefit. It
isn't just about me.
Well, great, if we all get to look inside
and understand something about us, get
closer to our true selves and change

(02:00:30):
things, it's not just about us, right?
It's about all the people that we then
come in contact with, take care of, love,
don't love. Beyond our families.
Beyond our families. I mean, that's the
ultimate goal, really. Operate from your
best true self. And then these things of
taking care of others and loving others

(02:00:51):
just become part of who you are.
Right, and you can see that as a ripple
effect.(...) That goes out from yourself,
your immediate family, your friends, he
even stopped being as cantankerous at
work.(...) Well, that relieved all of the
people that work with him who don't have
to run around waiting for his father's

(02:01:13):
explosions. All right, well, that might
change someone's life. Maybe somebody
stayed at the company who might have
left. Right. Right, said,
this guy's out of his mind.
Right, and they went in a whole other
direction given that
that environment was safer.
Right, so you can start to see that
learning about yourself is not really

(02:01:35):
just a selfish thing, that it impacts
everything. Well, you could say at any
point in time that this is of the utmost
importance, but at this point in time,
it's of the utmost importance because we
have to step out of who we've trained
ourselves to be and we're not giving our

(02:01:55):
best to humanity or the people that we
love because we don't know how to,
because we don't know who we are. We
don't know who we are. And it sounds so
simple, but just the process and
listening to you share these dreams, it's
just so important and such an opener. For
Glenn to be able to sort of operate from

(02:02:18):
his true self and see what those results
are for himself and those people he loves
and knew people that come into his life
that he's able to approach in a loving
way. I mean, that's a gift to
all of us, like you just said.
Yeah, it really lets him, and then
hopefully this lets everybody, start to

(02:02:40):
get an idea that we are often living in
ways that are not us. We wanna get enough
distance to start to feel that, but also
if we can all be carrying the idea that
all of these things we all just say, oh,
life is tough, life is just hard.
Sometimes we're so in it, we can't even

(02:03:02):
see that it's hard and tough, but I think
a lot of people, and Glenn certainly had
that, this was just life. You just make
yourself scarce, right? Just get out of
here. You can't make yourself scarce
enough, you carry it with you, but you
have to get the idea that we don't need
life to be that way, right? That all of

(02:03:25):
these places where we just say, oh, but
this is how it's always been done. Yeah,
it's kind of abusive, but that person
really loves me, they're doing it for my
best good. We have to start to say, no,
actually that's not for your best good.
And person doing it, if you've got that
idea, you have to change that idea and
stop doing it that way. We have to

(02:03:46):
reassess everything and look at it, like
how are we really doing this? Did we set
this up right? Why does everybody have to
suffer just because the generation before
did? Stop it, enough, we all have to look
and say, wait a minute, how have I set
this up and it isn't right?
Why is the status quo the status quo?

(02:04:07):
Does it have to be that? No, it does not.
That's right, but we see even with Glenn,
you change and it kind of goes, I don't
like the suit,(...) right?
It doesn't feel great on me.
So we see, you know, and that's somebody
who's motivated to change, right? Not
being dragged, kicking and screaming. And
so we just all have to

(02:04:28):
decide that change is needed
and let's just see how we can get there
by getting in touch with
ourselves. Right. Yeah,
that's where it has to
start. And it'll all ripple out.
Loren, thank you. Thank
you. Always a treasure.
Thank you. Thank you for
having me and letting me share.

(02:04:49):
Always, it's the best.
And you'll be back. Yes. And we'll do
more of this. Thank you. Thank you all
for listening. And I'm sure that you
found it as fabulous as I did. And we'll
be back again soon with Loren and with
others. So stay tuned.