As life's complexities unfold, psychologist and coach Lauren Napolitano joins us to dissect the painful yet sometimes transformative nature of infidelity, providing understanding for those navigating these difficult times.
Trust is the cornerstone of any relationship, yet when it's shattered by infidelity, the rebuilding process can resemble a labyrinth of emotional turns. This episode doesn't shy away from the tough conversations, including a gripping account of a woman who chose to face her husband's emotional affair with extraordinary bravery. We discuss the societal shackles and the often solitary aftermath of such revelations, and the imperative role of specialized couples counseling in the journey towards forgiveness and reconnection. The goal is to validate the myriad of experiences and the resilience it takes to either mend the cracks or close the book on a chapter of one's life.
In a world where the term 'narcissism' is thrown around with alarming frequency, we zone in on what it truly means to be entangled with a narcissist and how gaslighting can erode one's sense of self. Tactics for preserving your identity and the importance of establishing boundaries are underscored, without sugarcoating the challenging decision of whether to stay or depart from a relationship.
https://www.instagram.com/laurennapolitanopsyd/
https://www.laurennapolitano.com/
I'd love to work with you! Let me help you reach your health and fitness goals.
https://www.fasterwaycoach.com/?aid=MicheleFolan
Have questions about Faster Way? Feel free to reach out.
mfolanfasterway@gmail.com
Follow Asking for a Friend on Social media outlets:
https://www.instagram.com/askingforafriend_pod/
https://www.facebook.com/askforafriendpod/
Please provide a review and share. This helps us grow!
https://lovethepodcast.com/AFAF
This podcast is for general informational purposes only and does not constitute the practice of medicine, nursing, or other professional healthcare services, including the giving of medical advice. The content of this podcast is not intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Users should not disregard or delay in obtaining medical advice for any medical condition they may have and should seek the assistance of their healthcare professionals for any such conditions.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Michele Folan (00:00):
If you are a midlife woman who's frustrated
because you're trying to losebody fat, but what you've done
in the past is no longertouching that muffin top Perhaps
you're struggling to manageyour sugar cravings or evening
snacking.
You want to build muscle, stayactive and be mobile well into
your later years?
Well, listen, I have been inyour shoes and can share a
(00:24):
program with coaching andaccountability to keep you on
track, with daily at-homeworkouts and macro-based meal
plans that produce sustainableresults.
All you need to do is decidethat you are worth it and that
you want to control thenarrative.
And how do I know this willwork for you?
I was a client and loved myresults so much that I became a
(00:47):
coach.
Just go to the show notes ofthis episode and let's connect.
I'd love to tell you more andwork with you as your certified
coach.
Now on to the show Health,wellness, fitness and everything
in between.
We're removing the taboo fromwhat really matters in midlife.
(01:10):
I'm your host, michelle Follin,and this is Asking for a Friend
.
Welcome to the show everyone.
When it comes to reasons forcouples to part ways, infidelity
or an extramarital affair isstill the most common reason,
(01:31):
but you almost have to look atwhat causes the infidelity in
the first place.
Some top reasons are lack ofconnection or family support, or
lack of emotional intimacy orsexual intimacy.
If you or someone you know isin this place, how do you
recover and move ahead?
(01:51):
Either you stay or you go.
But can your best days be aheadof you?
Lauren Napolitano says thatindeed you can heal from
infidelity.
Laura is a clinicalpsychologist and coach who
believes that it is never toolate to either reinvent yourself
or even your relationship.
(02:13):
Welcome to Asking for a Friend,lauren Napolitano.
Thanks, Michelle.
I'm thrilled to be here back ofhow we connected, but it was
nice to have you bring thistopic up, because I think there
is not only a ton of meat onthis bone, but for women in this
(02:35):
age group, this is becomingvery relevant, and so I'm glad
we're going to dig into thistoday.
But before we get started, Iwould love for you to tell the
audience more about you and alsoyour career path, sure.
Lauren Napolitano (02:49):
I'm a psychologist.
My office is in Philadelphia.
I work with adults individuallyand also couples.
I also work with parents whoare divorced that are working on
co-parenting.
I've been a psychologist forabout 20 years now, which I
guess makes me appropriate for amidlife conversation, but my
interests have sort of changedover the years.
(03:11):
I think as you conquerdifferent hurdles you become
interested in different issues.
So early in my career I workedwith younger adults or
adolescents and then, as I'veaged, I've been more interested
in working in marriages andrelationships and infidelity,
divorce all the things that allof us are dealing with in one
(03:31):
way or another.
Michele Folan (03:33):
So you said that you have a personal story that
you feel is really helping youhelp others.
Do you mind sharing a littlebit about that?
Lauren Napolitano (03:41):
Oh sure, I turned 50 this year but I got
divorced from my first husbandwhen I was 35 and there was
infidelity in that marriage.
But I will say that in my casethe infidelity I will say was a
gift because it was the least ofour problems.
The infidelity was not thereason for the divorce.
(04:03):
The divorce happened because wereally weren't friends and so
in many ways that kind ofinfidelity just woke me up to
the fact that I was trying tofit a square into a round hole.
But it was a real eye openerfor me and I think for a lot of
people.
This is sort of going on, youknow probably further questions,
but there's two types ofinfidelity.
(04:23):
There's infidelity that hurtsbecause there is love and
there's affection and there'sfriendship, and it's a real
betrayal.
And then there's another kindof infidelity which I
experienced which is more justlike a wake up call of like, wow
, I don't have to be here, whyam I doing this?
Michele Folan (04:41):
And it's a gift, to sort of say like get out, and
you were relatively young atthat.
At that point, yes, I was.
Lauren Napolitano (04:48):
I mean, I had two young kids, so it wasn't
easy.
But I was young enough torealize like, wow, if there's
already infidelity in ourthirties like this is not going
anywhere, good Right.
Michele Folan (05:01):
And then once we get a little older 50s, even 60,
it may have some differentmeaning where the kids are out
of the house.
And then it means, okay, we'regoing to be alone.
And I did want to talk aboutthat real quick because the
current statistics for marriageor divorce and correct me if I'm
(05:26):
wrong, but from what I read,baby boomers are still divorcing
at a much higher rate thanother age groups.
And then the fact that in thebaby boomer group it's typically
(05:51):
the women that are initiatingthe divorce.
What are you seeing currentlyin your practice?
Lauren Napolitano (05:56):
I wouldn't say that I see any gender splits
in terms of who is initiatingdivorce.
I know the cliched answer forwhy more women initiate divorce
is that you know, say, 50, 70years ago, women didn't have
financial opportunities so theycouldn't afford to divorce a bad
partner, and so more women areeconomically or educationally
(06:19):
privileged that they can do that.
I also think, though, if youwant to talk about some sort of
like stereotypes in terms of aman cheating on a woman, I think
sometimes in that situation,like in my first marriage, I
think my husband at the time wascheating so that I would file
for divorce.
So he was provoking me so thatI would sort of take the fall
(06:44):
and file for divorce.
So there is a little bit of oneperson loads the gun, one
person fires the gun.
Michele Folan (06:49):
All right, I don't want to get too personal,
but what do you think led up tothat, or what do you see even in
your practice, like what leadsup to that infidelity most often
?
Lauren Napolitano (07:00):
I think what there's?
A lack of friendship.
I think that's really the mostfundamental piece of any
platonic or romanticrelationship is are you friends,
like, are you really goodfriends where you can count on
one another?
And I think when there isn't afriendship, then there's just
less emotional intimacy, there'sless connection and then people
(07:23):
kind of drift emotionalintimacy there's less connection
and then people kind of drift.
Michele Folan (07:32):
Okay, I don't mean to laugh, but I was like,
could we be too good of friendsand there is no sexual
connection?
Yeah, yeah, that's a very goodpoint.
I'm not speaking fromexperience.
Lauren Napolitano (07:41):
We're asking for a friend, yeah.
Michele Folan (07:42):
Yeah, I'm asking for a friend.
I can't believe.
I just said that.
So what if there's infidelitywith both partners?
Lauren Napolitano (07:50):
Well to me if .
If someone came into my officeand there was infidelity with
both partners.
I think the obvious question issort of like do you want a, do
you want to be together or doyou want an open marriage?
Like do you want A, do you wantto be together or do you want
an open marriage?
Like do you need to redefinethe terms of your relationship?
I mean no judgment.
Like whichever works is great,but like let's not call this
(08:14):
monogamous marriage if you'reboth cheating.
Michele Folan (08:17):
Yeah, we've had that topic on the show before.
Ethical non-monogamy, yeah, andI'm sure it made some people's
heads spin, but I think in 2024.
I mean, I think really alloptions are on the table, right,
yeah, okay, can we talk aboutthe emotional affair?
(08:39):
How often?
Lauren Napolitano (08:41):
do you?
Michele Folan (08:41):
see that.
Lauren Napolitano (08:42):
I think that's much more common and, I
think, typically pretty secret,right.
Like I always say, the firstsign of like an emotional affair
is when you put the person inyour phone under a different
name, like I think that's when,if you're the person saying, oh,
I'm going to call this personSally, it should be sort of a
(09:02):
red flag that something has gonea little bit too far.
But I think, again it's, it's aslippery slope, so can people
recover from infidelity.
Michele Folan (09:16):
It's a slippery slope.
So can people recover frominfidelity?
Do you?
Do you see that being a truepossibility for the people in
your practice?
Lauren Napolitano (09:19):
A hundred percent If both people are
motivated and they are using, ifboth of them are using it as a
wake up call that they've kindof, you know, gone into highway
hypnosis and slid off the road.
A hundred percent it can beworked through to highway
hypnosis and slid off the road.
100% it can be worked through.
The only issue is if one personis not motivated right, like if
(09:40):
one person is already checkedout, then the prognosis is grim.
Michele Folan (09:43):
Okay, is there ever really forgiveness?
Lauren Napolitano (09:47):
That's a good question.
I think there can be.
Okay.
I mean, I don't see why therewouldn't be.
I think you can forgive.
What about trust?
I think that also can berebuilt, but it would be
different, okay, as we once were.
(10:10):
And so I think, even in asituation where maybe there's
been betrayal, you can rebuildtrust.
But I don't know that it wouldbe the same level or the same
type of sort of blind trust thatmaybe you had 20 years ago.
Michele Folan (10:25):
You know I have a story to share.
Yeah, this happened a whileback.
This is someone that I know andshe found out that her husband
was having more of an emotionalat least that's what he said.
It was an emotional affair, Ithink.
She discovered some things andand he was open with her.
(10:46):
She wanted to work it out andbut she really felt that he
needed to, you know, beremorseful for what he had done,
because she really wanted tokeep it from happening again.
Now I don't know what you'regoing to think about this, but
her strategy was to haul his assto her parents' house, make him
(11:12):
get out of the car, ring thedoorbell and tell her parents
exactly what he had done.
And then she took him to hisparents' house Wow and made him
do the exact same thing.
She said you are going to beaccountable for this.
I appreciate you being honest,but you're going to be
accountable for what you've doneand, to my knowledge, they are
(11:36):
still together today.
Wow, yeah, that's quite a story.
Yeah, I like that.
I was really excited to sharethat with you because I'm
throwing it out there as an ideato women that if you really
want to make it work, then youtalk about creating
accountability.
(11:56):
Everybody's going to know, butthere's also the social stigma,
I think, around whether you staywith someone who everyone know
has cheated on you, and thenalso the flip side of maybe,
okay, you're going to be thatperson that's never going to
forgive and there's a lot there.
Lauren Napolitano (12:18):
There's so much there, michelle.
The reason that I really talk alot about infidelity in my
practice is because there is somuch stigma around staying with
someone after infidelity.
American culture is very blackand white.
We have this sort of knee-jerkreaction like once a cheater,
always a cheater.
A leopard doesn't change theirspots and in many cases that's
(12:41):
true, right, but not all of thetime.
But my concern for women, ifthey are the one who have been
cheated on, is that then theycannot confide even with their
closest friends or family,because the immediate advice
they get is you know, you arespineless if you don't kick this
person out.
And it leads all of thesesecrets and shame and people
(13:05):
feel very, very isolated whenthey're dealing with it because
there's no one they can tell.
Michele Folan (13:09):
Yeah, I can only imagine how that feels in a
social situation, when peoplesee you with that person and
they're wondering why you'restill with them and you
obviously want to work on it.
You care, you love that person.
(13:30):
You see that remorse and wantto work it out Right.
But then there's also thatgroup which Lauren, you've seen
this too where they think youshould stay together at all
costs and sometimes that's notpalatable.
How do you coach those people?
Lauren Napolitano (13:50):
I mean.
The truth of the matter is thatI think when infidelity is on
the table, both partners feellike they're like in a circus,
like everybody's got an opinion,everybody's cheering or jeering
or booing, like people likeoutside you know, your outside
sort of a circle of friends orfamily are heated and
(14:13):
opinionated and have all kindsof unsolicited advice.
So the best thing to do is totry to tune that out, to kind of
listen to what your instinct istelling you, cause it's very
easy to get swept up.
Michele Folan (14:27):
Yeah, and I I think too, when we're talking
this age group, you know,fifties, 60s hopefully we have a
little more confidence to standon our own two feet and make
those decisions based on what weneed and what we want, and not
what those outside influencesare telling us.
(14:47):
Yeah, agree, when people arelooking for a couples coach,
what do you recommend they lookfor?
What's the most important thing?
Lauren Napolitano (15:02):
Well, that is a very good question, and it
brings me to something you saidbefore about.
You know, some people are verystrong minded around like once a
cheater, always a cheater, andother people have very strong,
say, religious backgrounds whereit's like, nope, you made a vow
, it's to the death.
I think if you are handlinginfidelity, you should look for
(15:24):
a counselor that specializes inthat, because I think my concern
would be that if you happen tosee someone who is perhaps doing
faith-based counseling, it'sgoing to be a very biased
opinion, right, which is likemarriage is a vow you took and
you have to forgive, orpotentially someone who isn't
(15:45):
specialized in infidelity, andthey might be more in the camp
of you know, if you haveself-esteem, you skedaddle out
of there.
So I think you want to findsomeone who's seasoned with the
topic.
Michele Folan (15:56):
Okay, you know, I had a friend call me the other
day.
She and her husband are goingthrough a divorce and I think
this happens very often whereone of the parties really loves
the counselor or the therapistand the other person doesn't.
What do you do in that case?
Lauren Napolitano (16:16):
Sadly, I can tell you from both personal
experience of having been incouples counseling in my first
marriage and also being acouples counselor.
It's often the case, right,Like in certain moments you
experience the counselor sidingwith your partner and not you,
and it's just, it's so enragingin that moment, right, but
(16:38):
typically over time the scaleswill balance out.
It's just, it is hard totolerate when you feel like in
that moment the counselor issiding with, quote unquote, the
wrong person.
So it is, it's part of being incouples counseling, sort of
that seesaw of emotions.
Michele Folan (17:00):
Okay, Because I think that the person that
typically doesn't like thetherapist or the counselor is
the one that feels that they'regetting picked on or that they
aren't.
Their story isn't really beingheard, Right.
So okay.
Yeah, it's very challenging andI do want to discuss the
(17:22):
narcissist, because there's theinfidelity piece, but then there
is the narcissism thatoftentimes is a result of you
know why they come to see you.
If you do have a client, that'sin that you detect that there
(17:42):
really truly is narcissisticbehavior.
What do these conversationslook like?
Because these can be tough,right.
Lauren Napolitano (17:52):
Well, unfortunately it's really common
, right.
I mean I see some people whoare exiting or divorcing a
narcissistic man and that'susually a process of kind of
rebuilding your self-esteem andrebuilding kind of what reality
is.
But I think this the hardestemotionally, the hardest work
that I do is working with womenwho are committed to staying
(18:15):
with sort of narcissistic menand really enduring ongoing
emotional abuse because I can'tcoach them to leave.
They're very clear that they'renot going to leave, but it's
hard to watch someone kind ofperpetually be put down or kind
of hurt, can you?
Michele Folan (18:35):
provide some examples of what you have seen
in regard to narcissisticbehavior.
Lauren Napolitano (18:41):
Well, the primary thing that happens is
gaslighting, right?
So say, michelle, you and I goout to lunch and you eat all my
French fries and I'm like, hey,michelle, get out of my French
fries fries.
And then you say to me well,those were mine.
You're wrong I, they came withmy meal.
And I start to feel like I'mlosing my mind.
Right, that's the foundation oflike narcissistic abuse, is
(19:06):
that when you say to the person,hey, you know, I thought you
were going to bring the trashcans in, they spin it on you in
a way that is so clever and sopowerful that you question your
own sanity and over years itreally erodes your confidence or
your sense of yourself or youridentity.
It's very controlling.
Michele Folan (19:28):
So if you do have a client who wants to stay with
that narcissist or is enduringthat narcissistic behavior, I
mean, how do you coach that?
That's a tough one.
Lauren Napolitano (19:44):
Well, I think part of it is.
I would encourage them not toreally provoke the narcissist.
If you are committed to stayingwith someone who is at least at
a minimum we can agree thatthey're difficult or moody, then
I think it's really importantto build up all of the other
areas of your life.
You need to increase yourfriend group, you need to do
(20:04):
more work that has purpose.
You need to travel.
You need to have a vibrantpersonal life that can kind of
offset some of the challenges ofcommunicating with someone who
can be difficult.
Okay.
Michele Folan (20:18):
Do you ever just have to tell a couple or a
person that you're?
There is no hope for therelationship.
Lauren Napolitano (20:28):
That's a good question.
I don't usually have to saythat myself, I think usually
like again, if you look back tohow I was when I was 35, like I
was in couples counseling, I wasin individual therapy.
I don't think it took too longfor someone to kind of bring me
around to the fact that I wastrying to glue something
(20:49):
together that was not going toever work.
But it's best for the person tocome to that conclusion on
their own.
Can a narcissist change though?
No, no, Okay, a hundred percentno.
Michele Folan (21:05):
Okay.
Well, that doesn't give me alot of hope for the people out
there that are dealing with thisShoot, Okay, but I know this
comes up a lot of hope for thepeople out there that are
dealing with this Shoot.
Okay, but I know this comes upa lot right.
Lauren Napolitano (21:15):
I mean it does oh yeah, but that's part of
the work too.
I work with a lot of women whoare committed to narcissistic
men and I know that they arevery committed to their marriage
, so I don't try to dissuadethem.
And I know that they are verycommitted to their marriage, so
(21:40):
I don't try to dissuade them,but I really try to help keep
them from trying to change thisperson or hoping that this time
they'll get through to them orthis time they'll come around.
It's like, well, no, just let'saccept that person for the way
that they are, but let's notmake excuses for the other areas
of your life that you areneglecting that could also give
you purpose and meaning and joy.
Michele Folan (21:53):
Okay, so it's, it's kind of like living
separately together in a way.
Lauren Napolitano (22:00):
Well, I like to think of it more as, like
radical acceptance.
Like, if you're committed tostaying with this person, that's
no judgment, that's great, butyou have to really accept them
for who they are, rather thanusing all of this lovely energy
and life force to try to getblood from a stone.
Yeah, like, just accept thisperson but build joy and support
(22:25):
in other areas, because it'sout there, right.
Michele Folan (22:28):
Yeah, and but you know, I do have to call this
out and I oftentimes think thatwhat others see in public or in
social situations may not alwaysbe the reality behind closed
doors.
I think there's always thatthat friend or person that you
know that is really good athiding the reality of their
(22:53):
marriage.
And then when they do tellpeople, hey, we're getting
divorced, we're separating,whatever the case might be,
people sometimes can be reallysurprised.
Lauren Napolitano (23:07):
Do you ever see that Well, yeah, of course,
but again, but again.
It's one of those things like,as the marriage is circling the
drain, there's so much shame anddenial and sort of optimism,
like maybe this time we'll pullthis out and it'll be great, but
people don't disclose how hardit is until it's over?
Michele Folan (23:29):
When do you think it's truly time to move on,
like when?
When you say you know what myrecommendation is for you to to
leave, get out of this situation.
Lauren Napolitano (23:41):
I think I think what happens for a lot of
people and again I can onlyspeak in my first marriage there
were like so many things whereI was asking for my husband at
the time to connect and onething that came up which seems
so ridiculous, but you know, Iwas 35, he wouldn't wear his
wedding ring and I kept sayingto him it hurts my feelings that
(24:03):
you won't wear your weddingring, but he just wouldn't.
And at some point I had torealize, but he just wouldn't.
And at some point I had torealize that's the answer.
Like, right, he's not saying Irefuse to wear it, but his
behavior was speaking volumes,right.
Like I think at some point youreally have to look at how is
this person treating youbehaviorally?
Not like, are they talking aslick game, but how are they
(24:26):
really making you feel?
And if it's consistently, youfeel dejected, depleted,
demoralized, humiliated, etcetera.
There's your answer, right.
Michele Folan (24:38):
Yeah, you know this brings up another question.
So I had this conversationagain with my friend who I had
the phone chat with, and there'sthis, the quandary right, do
you stay together for the kidsand then when the kids are in
their twenties, they're out ofthe house?
Then you, you make that jump,or do you do what maybe you did?
(25:03):
35 kids are still young.
You know you still have yourwhole life ahead of you, but you
know you're going to be raisingthese kids as a single parent
or co-parenting, and I know it'sa very personal choice, but in
your experience or your opinion,what do you think is best?
Lauren Napolitano (25:26):
I don't think it's a matter of what's best.
I think it's a matter of howtoxic the marriage is.
If the marriage is super toxic,like my first marriage, I had
to get out of there.
I mean it just.
It was going to implode anyminute, so like I ejected myself
.
But it was a.
It was a burning house already,Whereas I think people who can
(25:47):
luckily kind of hold on untiltheir kids are older, Typically
things aren't toxic.
They're just maybe disconnectedand so it more has like a
evaporating intimacy or anevaporating warmth.
So they're just, they're twodifferent types of marriages,
Okay.
Michele Folan (26:06):
All right, you know I hate to ask this question
, but when things are gettingreally nasty and dirty and one
of the spouses is pulling thekids in and, you know, maybe the
kids are siding with one overthe other, can you walk us
through how you deal with thatwhen you're in a therapy
(26:30):
situation?
Lauren Napolitano (26:31):
Well, I think the first step is just to
normalize it, like if you are infact divorcing someone who is
narcissistic or, at a minimum,difficult, you can expect what's
called like a smear campaign,like that person is going to
smear you to all of your friendsand all of your kids and what
have you, and that is sort of anexpectable phase.
(26:52):
But truthfully, after the smearcampaign, which is incredibly
hurtful and painful to tolerate,typically people then can sort
of make their own opinions.
So even when your kids arealienated at the start or they
get very swept up in what thelies that are being told about
you, usually eventually peoplekind of calm down and can see
(27:15):
the situation in a more balancedmanner, but it is very hard to
tolerate, for sure.
Okay.
Michele Folan (27:21):
So can you provide a sense of how you work
with clients?
I mean, I'm certain that yousee clients in person.
Do you ever do remote?
Oh sure, how does that usuallywork for you?
Lauren Napolitano (27:34):
I prefer to see people in person, but I will
say, since the pandemic, 90% ofmy clients are virtual.
Oh, you're kidding, becausethat's just the way of the world
.
Yeah, I mean, people want tokind of fit in an appointment on
their lunch break, which Iappreciate.
Michele Folan (27:50):
Do people ever bring their kids in?
Do they ever make it part ofthe group chat?
Lauren Napolitano (27:55):
No, I don't want to do that.
I feel like that's for adifferent specialist, that's not
for me.
Michele Folan (28:03):
I didn't know People bringing in their
22-year-old kids.
You know, just like let's havea family chat.
I didn't know if that was eversomething that people do.
But I don't know, I'm sure itis but not on my watch.
Now that I think about that,that could be really bad.
Do you have any client successstories you'd want to share?
Lauren Napolitano (28:24):
I mean, I think most marriages who are
committed to sticking in couplestherapy tend to really improve.
Right, I mean, it's, it's, it'ssort of like it's.
It's a silly analogy, but likeif you join a gym but you never
go right, not much is going tochange.
But if you join a gym and youreally work at fitness and
(28:45):
health, your fitness and yourhealth are going to improve.
The same is true with marriage,like if you're both working the
program, it's going to improve.
Michele Folan (28:54):
Okay.
So before we wrap this up, Iwant to ask you, and I ask all
my guests this what is one ofyour vitally important pillars
of self-care?
How does Lauren Napolitano takecare of herself?
Lauren Napolitano (29:10):
That is such a good question.
It's funny because most of myclientele is virtual.
The one thing that I feel likeis so important for me every day
is group fitness classes,because it's so in-person, right
, there's so many people and youhave the rush of like
endorphins, but also like asense of community.
(29:33):
It's an antidote to beingvirtual, you know and we don't
talk about that enough.
Michele Folan (29:38):
But that sense of community, particularly as we
get into midlife, havingnetworks and connections and you
know some of those people canbecome some of your greatest
friends, you know, because youknow each other on a different
level.
So I think that's a great tipthat, yeah, we just don't bring
(30:00):
up enough.
On this show we talk a lotabout getting good sleep and
lifting heavy weights and, youknow, meditation, but community
is a really good one.
Yeah, for sure.
Lauren Napolitano, how canlisteners find you?
Lauren Napolitano (30:17):
Well, my website is my name.
It's laurennapolitanocom.
Or I'm on Instagram atlaurennapolitanosyd, which is
P-S-Y-D, but those two places.
Michele Folan (30:30):
I will put that in the show notes.
Appreciate you being here today.
Thank you, lauren.
Thanks Michelle.
Follow Asking for a Friend onsocial media outlets and provide
a review and share this showwherever you get your podcasts.
Reviews and sharing help usgrow.
If you are a midlife woman who's frustrated
because you're trying to losebody fat, but what you've done
in the past is no longertouching that muffin top Perhaps
you're struggling to manageyour sugar cravings or evening
snacking.
You want to build muscle, stayactive and be mobile well into
your later years?
Well, listen, I have been inyour shoes and can share a
(00:24):
program with coaching andaccountability to keep you on
track, with daily at-homeworkouts and macro-based meal
plans that produce sustainableresults.
All you need to do is decidethat you are worth it and that
you want to control thenarrative.
And how do I know this willwork for you?
I was a client and loved myresults so much that I became a
(00:47):
coach.
Just go to the show notes ofthis episode and let's connect.
I'd love to tell you more andwork with you as your certified
coach.
Now on to the show Health,wellness, fitness and everything
in between.
We're removing the taboo fromwhat really matters in midlife.
(01:10):
I'm your host, michelle Follin,and this is Asking for a Friend
.
Welcome to the show everyone.
When it comes to reasons forcouples to part ways, infidelity
or an extramarital affair isstill the most common reason,
(01:31):
but you almost have to look atwhat causes the infidelity in
the first place.
Some top reasons are lack ofconnection or family support, or
lack of emotional intimacy orsexual intimacy.
If you or someone you know isin this place, how do you
recover and move ahead?
(01:51):
Either you stay or you go.
But can your best days be aheadof you?
Lauren Napolitano says thatindeed you can heal from
infidelity.
Laura is a clinicalpsychologist and coach who
believes that it is never toolate to either reinvent yourself
or even your relationship.
(02:13):
Welcome to Asking for a Friend,lauren Napolitano.
Thanks, Michelle.
I'm thrilled to be here back ofhow we connected, but it was
nice to have you bring thistopic up, because I think there
is not only a ton of meat onthis bone, but for women in this
(02:35):
age group, this is becomingvery relevant, and so I'm glad
we're going to dig into thistoday.
But before we get started, Iwould love for you to tell the
audience more about you and alsoyour career path, sure.
Lauren Napolitano (02:49):
I'm a psychologist.
My office is in Philadelphia.
I work with adults individuallyand also couples.
I also work with parents whoare divorced that are working on
co-parenting.
I've been a psychologist forabout 20 years now, which I
guess makes me appropriate for amidlife conversation, but my
interests have sort of changedover the years.
(03:11):
I think as you conquerdifferent hurdles you become
interested in different issues.
So early in my career I workedwith younger adults or
adolescents and then, as I'veaged, I've been more interested
in working in marriages andrelationships and infidelity,
divorce all the things that allof us are dealing with in one
(03:31):
way or another.
Michele Folan (03:33):
So you said that you have a personal story that
you feel is really helping youhelp others.
Do you mind sharing a littlebit about that?
Lauren Napolitano (03:41):
Oh sure, I turned 50 this year but I got
divorced from my first husbandwhen I was 35 and there was
infidelity in that marriage.
But I will say that in my casethe infidelity I will say was a
gift because it was the least ofour problems.
The infidelity was not thereason for the divorce.
(04:03):
The divorce happened because wereally weren't friends and so
in many ways that kind ofinfidelity just woke me up to
the fact that I was trying tofit a square into a round hole.
But it was a real eye openerfor me and I think for a lot of
people.
This is sort of going on, youknow probably further questions,
but there's two types ofinfidelity.
(04:23):
There's infidelity that hurtsbecause there is love and
there's affection and there'sfriendship, and it's a real
betrayal.
And then there's another kindof infidelity which I
experienced which is more justlike a wake up call of like, wow
, I don't have to be here, whyam I doing this?
Michele Folan (04:41):
And it's a gift, to sort of say like get out, and
you were relatively young atthat.
At that point, yes, I was.
Lauren Napolitano (04:48):
I mean, I had two young kids, so it wasn't
easy.
But I was young enough torealize like, wow, if there's
already infidelity in ourthirties like this is not going
anywhere, good Right.
Michele Folan (05:01):
And then once we get a little older 50s, even 60,
it may have some differentmeaning where the kids are out
of the house.
And then it means, okay, we'regoing to be alone.
And I did want to talk aboutthat real quick because the
current statistics for marriageor divorce and correct me if I'm
(05:26):
wrong, but from what I read,baby boomers are still divorcing
at a much higher rate thanother age groups.
And then the fact that in thebaby boomer group it's typically
(05:51):
the women that are initiatingthe divorce.
What are you seeing currentlyin your practice?
Lauren Napolitano (05:56):
I wouldn't say that I see any gender splits
in terms of who is initiatingdivorce.
I know the cliched answer forwhy more women initiate divorce
is that you know, say, 50, 70years ago, women didn't have
financial opportunities so theycouldn't afford to divorce a bad
partner, and so more women areeconomically or educationally
(06:19):
privileged that they can do that.
I also think, though, if youwant to talk about some sort of
like stereotypes in terms of aman cheating on a woman, I think
sometimes in that situation,like in my first marriage, I
think my husband at the time wascheating so that I would file
for divorce.
So he was provoking me so thatI would sort of take the fall
(06:44):
and file for divorce.
So there is a little bit of oneperson loads the gun, one
person fires the gun.
Michele Folan (06:49):
All right, I don't want to get too personal,
but what do you think led up tothat, or what do you see even in
your practice, like what leadsup to that infidelity most often
?
Lauren Napolitano (07:00):
I think what there's?
A lack of friendship.
I think that's really the mostfundamental piece of any
platonic or romanticrelationship is are you friends,
like, are you really goodfriends where you can count on
one another?
And I think when there isn't afriendship, then there's just
less emotional intimacy, there'sless connection and then people
(07:23):
kind of drift emotionalintimacy there's less connection
and then people kind of drift.
Michele Folan (07:32):
Okay, I don't mean to laugh, but I was like,
could we be too good of friendsand there is no sexual
connection?
Yeah, yeah, that's a very goodpoint.
I'm not speaking fromexperience.
Lauren Napolitano (07:41):
We're asking for a friend, yeah.
Michele Folan (07:42):
Yeah, I'm asking for a friend.
I can't believe.
I just said that.
So what if there's infidelitywith both partners?
Lauren Napolitano (07:50):
Well to me if .
If someone came into my officeand there was infidelity with
both partners.
I think the obvious question issort of like do you want a, do
you want to be together or doyou want an open marriage?
Like do you want A, do you wantto be together or do you want
an open marriage?
Like do you need to redefinethe terms of your relationship?
I mean no judgment.
Like whichever works is great,but like let's not call this
(08:14):
monogamous marriage if you'reboth cheating.
Michele Folan (08:17):
Yeah, we've had that topic on the show before.
Ethical non-monogamy, yeah, andI'm sure it made some people's
heads spin, but I think in 2024.
I mean, I think really alloptions are on the table, right,
yeah, okay, can we talk aboutthe emotional affair?
(08:39):
How often?
Lauren Napolitano (08:41):
do you?
Michele Folan (08:41):
see that.
Lauren Napolitano (08:42):
I think that's much more common and, I
think, typically pretty secret,right.
Like I always say, the firstsign of like an emotional affair
is when you put the person inyour phone under a different
name, like I think that's when,if you're the person saying, oh,
I'm going to call this personSally, it should be sort of a
(09:02):
red flag that something has gonea little bit too far.
But I think, again it's, it's aslippery slope, so can people
recover from infidelity.
Michele Folan (09:16):
It's a slippery slope.
So can people recover frominfidelity?
Do you?
Do you see that being a truepossibility for the people in
your practice?
Lauren Napolitano (09:19):
A hundred percent If both people are
motivated and they are using, ifboth of them are using it as a
wake up call that they've kindof, you know, gone into highway
hypnosis and slid off the road.
A hundred percent it can beworked through to highway
hypnosis and slid off the road.
100% it can be worked through.
The only issue is if one personis not motivated right, like if
(09:40):
one person is already checkedout, then the prognosis is grim.
Michele Folan (09:43):
Okay, is there ever really forgiveness?
Lauren Napolitano (09:47):
That's a good question.
I think there can be.
Okay.
I mean, I don't see why therewouldn't be.
I think you can forgive.
What about trust?
I think that also can berebuilt, but it would be
different, okay, as we once were.
(10:10):
And so I think, even in asituation where maybe there's
been betrayal, you can rebuildtrust.
But I don't know that it wouldbe the same level or the same
type of sort of blind trust thatmaybe you had 20 years ago.
Michele Folan (10:25):
You know I have a story to share.
Yeah, this happened a whileback.
This is someone that I know andshe found out that her husband
was having more of an emotionalat least that's what he said.
It was an emotional affair, Ithink.
She discovered some things andand he was open with her.
(10:46):
She wanted to work it out andbut she really felt that he
needed to, you know, beremorseful for what he had done,
because she really wanted tokeep it from happening again.
Now I don't know what you'regoing to think about this, but
her strategy was to haul his assto her parents' house, make him
(11:12):
get out of the car, ring thedoorbell and tell her parents
exactly what he had done.
And then she took him to hisparents' house Wow and made him
do the exact same thing.
She said you are going to beaccountable for this.
I appreciate you being honest,but you're going to be
accountable for what you've doneand, to my knowledge, they are
(11:36):
still together today.
Wow, yeah, that's quite a story.
Yeah, I like that.
I was really excited to sharethat with you because I'm
throwing it out there as an ideato women that if you really
want to make it work, then youtalk about creating
accountability.
(11:56):
Everybody's going to know, butthere's also the social stigma,
I think, around whether you staywith someone who everyone know
has cheated on you, and thenalso the flip side of maybe,
okay, you're going to be thatperson that's never going to
forgive and there's a lot there.
Lauren Napolitano (12:18):
There's so much there, michelle.
The reason that I really talk alot about infidelity in my
practice is because there is somuch stigma around staying with
someone after infidelity.
American culture is very blackand white.
We have this sort of knee-jerkreaction like once a cheater,
always a cheater.
A leopard doesn't change theirspots and in many cases that's
(12:41):
true, right, but not all of thetime.
But my concern for women, ifthey are the one who have been
cheated on, is that then theycannot confide even with their
closest friends or family,because the immediate advice
they get is you know, you arespineless if you don't kick this
person out.
And it leads all of thesesecrets and shame and people
(13:05):
feel very, very isolated whenthey're dealing with it because
there's no one they can tell.
Michele Folan (13:09):
Yeah, I can only imagine how that feels in a
social situation, when peoplesee you with that person and
they're wondering why you'restill with them and you
obviously want to work on it.
You care, you love that person.
(13:30):
You see that remorse and wantto work it out Right.
But then there's also thatgroup which Lauren, you've seen
this too where they think youshould stay together at all
costs and sometimes that's notpalatable.
How do you coach those people?
Lauren Napolitano (13:50):
I mean.
The truth of the matter is thatI think when infidelity is on
the table, both partners feellike they're like in a circus,
like everybody's got an opinion,everybody's cheering or jeering
or booing, like people likeoutside you know, your outside
sort of a circle of friends orfamily are heated and
(14:13):
opinionated and have all kindsof unsolicited advice.
So the best thing to do is totry to tune that out, to kind of
listen to what your instinct istelling you, cause it's very
easy to get swept up.
Michele Folan (14:27):
Yeah, and I I think too, when we're talking
this age group, you know,fifties, 60s hopefully we have a
little more confidence to standon our own two feet and make
those decisions based on what weneed and what we want, and not
what those outside influencesare telling us.
(14:47):
Yeah, agree, when people arelooking for a couples coach,
what do you recommend they lookfor?
What's the most important thing?
Lauren Napolitano (15:02):
Well, that is a very good question, and it
brings me to something you saidbefore about.
You know, some people are verystrong minded around like once a
cheater, always a cheater, andother people have very strong,
say, religious backgrounds whereit's like, nope, you made a vow
, it's to the death.
I think if you are handlinginfidelity, you should look for
(15:24):
a counselor that specializes inthat, because I think my concern
would be that if you happen tosee someone who is perhaps doing
faith-based counseling, it'sgoing to be a very biased
opinion, right, which is likemarriage is a vow you took and
you have to forgive, orpotentially someone who isn't
(15:45):
specialized in infidelity, andthey might be more in the camp
of you know, if you haveself-esteem, you skedaddle out
of there.
So I think you want to findsomeone who's seasoned with the
topic.
Michele Folan (15:56):
Okay, you know, I had a friend call me the other
day.
She and her husband are goingthrough a divorce and I think
this happens very often whereone of the parties really loves
the counselor or the therapistand the other person doesn't.
What do you do in that case?
Lauren Napolitano (16:16):
Sadly, I can tell you from both personal
experience of having been incouples counseling in my first
marriage and also being acouples counselor.
It's often the case, right,Like in certain moments you
experience the counselor sidingwith your partner and not you,
and it's just, it's so enragingin that moment, right, but
(16:38):
typically over time the scaleswill balance out.
It's just, it is hard totolerate when you feel like in
that moment the counselor issiding with, quote unquote, the
wrong person.
So it is, it's part of being incouples counseling, sort of
that seesaw of emotions.
Michele Folan (17:00):
Okay, Because I think that the person that
typically doesn't like thetherapist or the counselor is
the one that feels that they'regetting picked on or that they
aren't.
Their story isn't really beingheard, Right.
So okay.
Yeah, it's very challenging andI do want to discuss the
(17:22):
narcissist, because there's theinfidelity piece, but then there
is the narcissism thatoftentimes is a result of you
know why they come to see you.
If you do have a client, that'sin that you detect that there
(17:42):
really truly is narcissisticbehavior.
What do these conversationslook like?
Because these can be tough,right.
Lauren Napolitano (17:52):
Well, unfortunately it's really common
, right.
I mean I see some people whoare exiting or divorcing a
narcissistic man and that'susually a process of kind of
rebuilding your self-esteem andrebuilding kind of what reality
is.
But I think this the hardestemotionally, the hardest work
that I do is working with womenwho are committed to staying
(18:15):
with sort of narcissistic menand really enduring ongoing
emotional abuse because I can'tcoach them to leave.
They're very clear that they'renot going to leave, but it's
hard to watch someone kind ofperpetually be put down or kind
of hurt, can you?
Michele Folan (18:35):
provide some examples of what you have seen
in regard to narcissisticbehavior.
Lauren Napolitano (18:41):
Well, the primary thing that happens is
gaslighting, right?
So say, michelle, you and I goout to lunch and you eat all my
French fries and I'm like, hey,michelle, get out of my French
fries fries.
And then you say to me well,those were mine.
You're wrong I, they came withmy meal.
And I start to feel like I'mlosing my mind.
Right, that's the foundation oflike narcissistic abuse, is
(19:06):
that when you say to the person,hey, you know, I thought you
were going to bring the trashcans in, they spin it on you in
a way that is so clever and sopowerful that you question your
own sanity and over years itreally erodes your confidence or
your sense of yourself or youridentity.
It's very controlling.
Michele Folan (19:28):
So if you do have a client who wants to stay with
that narcissist or is enduringthat narcissistic behavior, I
mean, how do you coach that?
That's a tough one.
Lauren Napolitano (19:44):
Well, I think part of it is.
I would encourage them not toreally provoke the narcissist.
If you are committed to stayingwith someone who is at least at
a minimum we can agree thatthey're difficult or moody, then
I think it's really importantto build up all of the other
areas of your life.
You need to increase yourfriend group, you need to do
(20:04):
more work that has purpose.
You need to travel.
You need to have a vibrantpersonal life that can kind of
offset some of the challenges ofcommunicating with someone who
can be difficult.
Okay.
Michele Folan (20:18):
Do you ever just have to tell a couple or a
person that you're?
There is no hope for therelationship.
Lauren Napolitano (20:28):
That's a good question.
I don't usually have to saythat myself, I think usually
like again, if you look back tohow I was when I was 35, like I
was in couples counseling, I wasin individual therapy.
I don't think it took too longfor someone to kind of bring me
around to the fact that I wastrying to glue something
(20:49):
together that was not going toever work.
But it's best for the person tocome to that conclusion on
their own.
Can a narcissist change though?
No, no, Okay, a hundred percentno.
Michele Folan (21:05):
Okay.
Well, that doesn't give me alot of hope for the people out
there that are dealing with thisShoot, Okay, but I know this
comes up a lot of hope for thepeople out there that are
dealing with this Shoot.
Okay, but I know this comes upa lot right.
Lauren Napolitano (21:15):
I mean it does oh yeah, but that's part of
the work too.
I work with a lot of women whoare committed to narcissistic
men and I know that they arevery committed to their marriage
, so I don't try to dissuadethem.
And I know that they are verycommitted to their marriage, so
(21:40):
I don't try to dissuade them,but I really try to help keep
them from trying to change thisperson or hoping that this time
they'll get through to them orthis time they'll come around.
It's like, well, no, just let'saccept that person for the way
that they are, but let's notmake excuses for the other areas
of your life that you areneglecting that could also give
you purpose and meaning and joy.
Michele Folan (21:53):
Okay, so it's, it's kind of like living
separately together in a way.
Lauren Napolitano (22:00):
Well, I like to think of it more as, like
radical acceptance.
Like, if you're committed tostaying with this person, that's
no judgment, that's great, butyou have to really accept them
for who they are, rather thanusing all of this lovely energy
and life force to try to getblood from a stone.
Yeah, like, just accept thisperson but build joy and support
(22:25):
in other areas, because it'sout there, right.
Michele Folan (22:28):
Yeah, and but you know, I do have to call this
out and I oftentimes think thatwhat others see in public or in
social situations may not alwaysbe the reality behind closed
doors.
I think there's always thatthat friend or person that you
know that is really good athiding the reality of their
(22:53):
marriage.
And then when they do tellpeople, hey, we're getting
divorced, we're separating,whatever the case might be,
people sometimes can be reallysurprised.
Lauren Napolitano (23:07):
Do you ever see that Well, yeah, of course,
but again, but again.
It's one of those things like,as the marriage is circling the
drain, there's so much shame anddenial and sort of optimism,
like maybe this time we'll pullthis out and it'll be great, but
people don't disclose how hardit is until it's over?
Michele Folan (23:29):
When do you think it's truly time to move on,
like when?
When you say you know what myrecommendation is for you to to
leave, get out of this situation.
Lauren Napolitano (23:41):
I think I think what happens for a lot of
people and again I can onlyspeak in my first marriage there
were like so many things whereI was asking for my husband at
the time to connect and onething that came up which seems
so ridiculous, but you know, Iwas 35, he wouldn't wear his
wedding ring and I kept sayingto him it hurts my feelings that
(24:03):
you won't wear your weddingring, but he just wouldn't.
And at some point I had torealize, but he just wouldn't.
And at some point I had torealize that's the answer.
Like, right, he's not saying Irefuse to wear it, but his
behavior was speaking volumes,right.
Like I think at some point youreally have to look at how is
this person treating youbehaviorally?
Not like, are they talking aslick game, but how are they
(24:26):
really making you feel?
And if it's consistently, youfeel dejected, depleted,
demoralized, humiliated, etcetera.
There's your answer, right.
Michele Folan (24:38):
Yeah, you know this brings up another question.
So I had this conversationagain with my friend who I had
the phone chat with, and there'sthis, the quandary right, do
you stay together for the kidsand then when the kids are in
their twenties, they're out ofthe house?
Then you, you make that jump,or do you do what maybe you did?
(25:03):
35 kids are still young.
You know you still have yourwhole life ahead of you, but you
know you're going to be raisingthese kids as a single parent
or co-parenting, and I know it'sa very personal choice, but in
your experience or your opinion,what do you think is best?
Lauren Napolitano (25:26):
I don't think it's a matter of what's best.
I think it's a matter of howtoxic the marriage is.
If the marriage is super toxic,like my first marriage, I had
to get out of there.
I mean it just.
It was going to implode anyminute, so like I ejected myself
.
But it was a.
It was a burning house already,Whereas I think people who can
(25:47):
luckily kind of hold on untiltheir kids are older, Typically
things aren't toxic.
They're just maybe disconnectedand so it more has like a
evaporating intimacy or anevaporating warmth.
So they're just, they're twodifferent types of marriages,
Okay.
Michele Folan (26:06):
All right, you know I hate to ask this question
, but when things are gettingreally nasty and dirty and one
of the spouses is pulling thekids in and, you know, maybe the
kids are siding with one overthe other, can you walk us
through how you deal with thatwhen you're in a therapy
(26:30):
situation?
Lauren Napolitano (26:31):
Well, I think the first step is just to
normalize it, like if you are infact divorcing someone who is
narcissistic or, at a minimum,difficult, you can expect what's
called like a smear campaign,like that person is going to
smear you to all of your friendsand all of your kids and what
have you, and that is sort of anexpectable phase.
(26:52):
But truthfully, after the smearcampaign, which is incredibly
hurtful and painful to tolerate,typically people then can sort
of make their own opinions.
So even when your kids arealienated at the start or they
get very swept up in what thelies that are being told about
you, usually eventually peoplekind of calm down and can see
(27:15):
the situation in a more balancedmanner, but it is very hard to
tolerate, for sure.
Okay.
Michele Folan (27:21):
So can you provide a sense of how you work
with clients?
I mean, I'm certain that yousee clients in person.
Do you ever do remote?
Oh sure, how does that usuallywork for you?
Lauren Napolitano (27:34):
I prefer to see people in person, but I will
say, since the pandemic, 90% ofmy clients are virtual.
Oh, you're kidding, becausethat's just the way of the world
.
Yeah, I mean, people want tokind of fit in an appointment on
their lunch break, which Iappreciate.
Michele Folan (27:50):
Do people ever bring their kids in?
Do they ever make it part ofthe group chat?
Lauren Napolitano (27:55):
No, I don't want to do that.
I feel like that's for adifferent specialist, that's not
for me.
Michele Folan (28:03):
I didn't know People bringing in their
22-year-old kids.
You know, just like let's havea family chat.
I didn't know if that was eversomething that people do.
But I don't know, I'm sure itis but not on my watch.
Now that I think about that,that could be really bad.
Do you have any client successstories you'd want to share?
Lauren Napolitano (28:24):
I mean, I think most marriages who are
committed to sticking in couplestherapy tend to really improve.
Right, I mean, it's, it's, it'ssort of like it's.
It's a silly analogy, but likeif you join a gym but you never
go right, not much is going tochange.
But if you join a gym and youreally work at fitness and
(28:45):
health, your fitness and yourhealth are going to improve.
The same is true with marriage,like if you're both working the
program, it's going to improve.
Michele Folan (28:54):
Okay.
So before we wrap this up, Iwant to ask you, and I ask all
my guests this what is one ofyour vitally important pillars
of self-care?
How does Lauren Napolitano takecare of herself?
Lauren Napolitano (29:10):
That is such a good question.
It's funny because most of myclientele is virtual.
The one thing that I feel likeis so important for me every day
is group fitness classes,because it's so in-person, right
, there's so many people and youhave the rush of like
endorphins, but also like asense of community.
(29:33):
It's an antidote to beingvirtual, you know and we don't
talk about that enough.
Michele Folan (29:38):
But that sense of community, particularly as we
get into midlife, havingnetworks and connections and you
know some of those people canbecome some of your greatest
friends, you know, because youknow each other on a different
level.
So I think that's a great tipthat, yeah, we just don't bring
(30:00):
up enough.
On this show we talk a lotabout getting good sleep and
lifting heavy weights and, youknow, meditation, but community
is a really good one.
Yeah, for sure.
Lauren Napolitano, how canlisteners find you?
Lauren Napolitano (30:17):
Well, my website is my name.
It's laurennapolitanocom.
Or I'm on Instagram atlaurennapolitanosyd, which is
P-S-Y-D, but those two places.
Michele Folan (30:30):
I will put that in the show notes.
Appreciate you being here today.
Thank you, lauren.
Thanks Michelle.
Follow Asking for a Friend onsocial media outlets and provide
a review and share this showwherever you get your podcasts.
Reviews and sharing help usgrow.
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
The Nikki Glaser Podcast
Every week comedian and infamous roaster Nikki Glaser provides a fun, fast-paced, and brutally honest look into current pop-culture and her own personal life.