September 14, 2023 • 56 mins
Imagine taking everything you need for a multi-day backpacking trip in a pack weighing less than 10 pounds. That's ultralight backpacking, and our guest, adventurer Jerry Dugan, is here to share his passion and expertise in this unique outdoor pursuit. With a rich history tracing back to George Sears in the late 1800s and Grandma Gatewood in 1955, ultralight backpacking offers a minimalist approach to exploring the great outdoors. Jerry shares his journey from hammock camping to ultralight backpacking, and provides invaluable advice on what essentials to pack for various trips, all while keeping the load under 10 pounds.
Going solo or in a group, each backpacking trip presents its own challenges and dilemmas. Whether it’s planning for solo trips or managing the dynamics within a group, Jerry imparts his wisdom on these often overlooked aspects of backpacking. He candidly shares stories of wildlife encounters during his solo journeys, and how his ultralight gear enables him to move faster, see more, and have unique experiences off the beaten path. Learn how to adjust your gear based on weather, the importance of knowing your water sources, and crucial safety measures to keep in mind, particularly when camping in wildlife-dense areas.
Taking ultralight backpacking a step further, Jerry also talks about his plans to conquer sections of the Appalachian Trail and shares some of his upcoming trips. Tune in for a compelling exploration of ultralight backpacking and gather invaluable tips for your next outdoor adventure!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
Every day people following their passions.
Speaker 1 (00:14):
That's probably like one of the highlights of my life
so far.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Just being able to be creative, like that Something
of a whisper.
Speaker 1 (00:23):
And then I decided to get another hive and that
turned into a lot of hives.
As long as I can do that, Iwant to be a good citizen and
help people out.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
Putting themselves out there, taking chances and
navigating challenges along theway.
I absolutely identified withhaving stage fright, because any
time I went on stage I justfelt like I was having a hot
attack.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
Very first lap, very first practice session.
I crashed, Turned the carupside down, made a spectacle of
myself and I got back on thathorse and started riding again.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
As they pursue what makes them happy and brings them
joy.
As long as people are having agood time and I have the
opportunity to put smiles onpeople's faces, I love what I do
.
I have done things that I neverthought I could do.
This is Assorted Conversations,and I'm your host, helen.
(01:17):
Hello, hello, hello and welcomeif you're listening to Assorted
Conversations for the firsttime, and welcome back if you're
tuning in again.
Now for this week's episode.
I got to start by saying I amthe world's worst packer when it
(01:41):
comes to getting ready to takeoff on a trip, probably part of
the reason I've never consideredbackpacking as something I'd
like to explore.
This week's guest shed somelight on things for me as it
relates to his love ofultralight backpacking.
In the US, the term ultralightoften refers to backpackers who
(02:03):
carry gear with a base weight of10 pounds or less, and base
weight is considered the weightof your pack and your gear, your
supplies.
It doesn't include food and itdoesn't include water.
By contrast, traditionalbackpackers have a base weight
of anywhere from 15 to 30 poundsand can go all the way up to 55
(02:28):
pounds in some cases If huntingequipment or fishing equipment
or even video equipment is beinghauled along the trails.
A little history on ultralightbackpacking.
It was popularized by Americanrock climber Ray Jardine, whose
1992 book, the PCT HikersHandbook, which was later
(02:53):
retitled Beyond Backpacking,laid the foundation for many
techniques that ultralightbackpackers use today.
Although Jardine is creditedfor popularizing ultralight
backpacking, traveling light onthe trails, can trace its roots
back to George Sears, who in thelate 1800s hiked the
(03:15):
Appalachian Trail with only awaxed canvas tarp walking stick,
a small pan and a dual-bladedhatchet.
He also wrote a book about thatexperience in 1884.
The book is entitled Woodcraft,so I don't know if you can hit
up Alibris to get a copy of that, but that would be interesting
(03:39):
to take a look at.
And then another early pioneerwas Grandma Gatewood, who threw
height to the Appalachian Trailin 1955 with only a duffel bag
containing an army blanket, aplastic sheet, an umbrella and a
few cooking utensils Not myidea of a fun camping trip.
(04:02):
However, my guest this week,ultralight backpacker and fellow
podcaster, jerry Dugan, isprobably thankful for the
advancements made since GeorgeSears and Grandma Gatewood's
time.
Get ready to take a peek intothe challenging yet highly
rewarding experience of being anultralight backpacker, and I'll
(04:25):
see you on the other side.
This week's guest, jerry Dugan,has eight years of ultralight
backpacking experience throughthe Midwest area.
Please help me welcome JerryDugan to Astorta Conversations.
(04:47):
Hey there, jerry.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
Hey Helen, Thanks for having me on here.
I'm excited because we'retalking about something I love.
Speaker 2 (04:54):
That is great.
Well, good, I'm glad you liketo talk about this.
I've got to ask you what isultralight backpacking?
Speaker 1 (05:03):
All right.
So backpacking itself is whereyou just it's camping and hiking
put together, and so everythingyou're going to need for your
trip you carry on your back,hence backpack, and you put it
in a backpack.
You know that's different thanpeople just pulling up to a
campsite unloading the coolerthe tent the stairs.
If you're my brother, you pullup with a trailer, with a TV
(05:26):
screen, xbox, all those thingsLike.
To him that's camping, to meI'm like no, that's moving, I
don't want to do that.
So backpacking is you minimizedown to what you need to go out
camping.
And then ultralight backpackingtakes it a step further.
That says I don't need to carrya 30 to 40 pound pack.
(05:49):
I can go further, faster, if Ican keep my base weight to under
10 pounds.
And the base weight is just thebasics, your equipment, and not
counting your food or your fuelor your water.
So it's things like yoursleeping bag, changes of
clothing, toilet trees, sleepingpad, tent, all those and your
(06:12):
pack weighing 10 pounds or less.
So that's ultralightbackpacking and you just look
for ways to minimize the amountof weight you're carrying.
And so I think my average baseweight, especially during the
summertime, is around 8 and ahalf to 9 pounds.
Now, fall, winter, especiallywintertime, under 15 pounds is
(06:33):
considered ultralight becauseyou got to bring some extra
stuff or you can die, and wedon't want to die out there.
So I think my ultralight weightduring the winter is around 12
to 13 pounds.
Wow Well now I know why I am nota backpacker ultralight or
regular, because when I go onvacation I can't get my luggage
(06:54):
under 50 pounds, so, and I thinkhalf of that's my hair dryer,
but anyway, oh man, my, my, myfriends are amazed, Like when I
just did a work trip last weekand I went to Fort Lauderdale
for a couple days and everythingI needed my laptop, the
training materials I took withme and my clothes, as well as
(07:16):
leisure all fit into onebackpack and I also brought a
tripod and some microphones andremotes and things like that All
that in a one backpack andeverybody's like how?
Why?
I'm like, I just know how topack.
And so one of the things thatcarries over from ultralight is
that everything can havemultiple uses.
And so you know, a lot of folksthink in terms of redundancies
(07:39):
and ultralighters think of multiuses.
You know this one thing maybe ahandkerchief could be a sweat
bandana, my pot holder, mynapkin and, if needed, a bandage
in case I get hurt.
Speaker 2 (07:54):
And so you know, I'm like.
Speaker 1 (07:54):
I'm going to bring this one piece of clothing as
multiple uses.
So same thing when I go on awork trip.
I'm looking at the pants can beworn for work and leisure.
So I can I can take fewer pairsof pants.
I want to bring extra underwearthough, because you've got to.
That's gross.
Not to you say, okay, I bringone of everything and other
things.
You're like you know what.
(08:14):
This has multiple functions toit.
I could just bring the oneinstead of multiple.
So I can just do choice.
When I go on a work trip, youknow it's like it's a casual
shoe that can pass as a businessshoe, and it's like it's
comfortable and it looks goodand it's functional.
Speaker 2 (08:30):
So yeah, the same philosophy.
Speaker 1 (08:34):
Yeah, yeah, it's really seeped into everything I
do, anywhere I go.
I think terms of minimalistapproach, less is more, those
kinds.
Speaker 2 (08:44):
How did you go from regular backpacking to
ultralight?
Speaker 1 (08:49):
Yeah, my initial.
So in the history of Jerry, myoriginal camping experiences
were the traditional ones thatpeople would call glamping.
So you know, joined up withfamily who had, you know, they
drove up to a campsite and youhad to unload the car and it
just wasn't fun for me.
It's like gosh.
The cooler is heavy, it's.
You know everything's soggy andyou know they have all this
(09:11):
equipment.
You got to track the equipment.
You can't lose anything.
We always lose something and itjust seemed like too much
effort to go out in the woodsand enjoy the woods.
At some point I joined the armyand I'm like, yeah, this is
rugged army type of stuff.
I love it.
At least I thought that's whatI was signing up for.
And again, you're bringing lotsof equipment, bullets, body
(09:33):
armor, but it's still kind ofrugged, still kind of cool.
But a lot of my units weremechanized Mechanized.
So it was kind of like carcamping anyway, like we're going
to convert the home V into acamper.
Now it's like, yeah, that's soneat.
But what I really wanted to dowas like what you see in the
movies.
You know, we're going to put ona rucksack, we're going to go
out in the woods and we're goingto do our mission and come back
(09:53):
Like I want that.
So when I leave the army,there's a good decade that goes
by and I don't do any camping,no hiking, no backpacking.
I just want to reconnect withnature and have some sort of way
to diffuse from the work I doand just kind of reconnect with
myself and have time to reflect.
And I had read an article abouta guy who had also served in
(10:16):
Operation Iraqi Freedom.
So I was in that invasion in2003 with a third infantry
division and I had read anarticle from Backpacker Magazine
about a guy who had beenthrough, I think, afghanistan on
a couple of tours toAfghanistan and he was dealing
with things like PTSD anddepression and like survivors
(10:37):
guilt kind of stuff, and hehiked the entire Pacific Crest
Trail on his own solo and hewrote about how it just
recharged him and allowed him tothink through his thoughts,
have conversations with himselfthat he needed to have, and then
by the time he finished the2000 plus miles he was like I
feel healed and whole again, wow.
And so he still goes outbackpacking, from what I
(11:00):
understand.
But it was like this healingmoment for him and I thought one
Memorial Day about nine, maybe10 years ago, I just threw all
the weight I could into myrucksack.
I had my own personal Armyrucksack or backpack and I just
loaded all the weight I couldinto that.
I put on my combat boots that Istill had.
And on Memorial Day thisparticular year, almost a decade
(11:21):
ago, I did a 12 mile road marchjust to do it and clear my head
and it was the most healingthing I could have done in my
entire life.
It allowed me, in the fourhours it took me, to complete
those 12 miles.
And I know other veterans arelike that took you that long?
I'm like, yeah, guys, it tookme a little long.
My legs are short.
So if your Army standard is,yeah, quiet, I'm not in the Army
(11:42):
, but anyway, like in those fourhours though, it just cleared
my head, it allowed me to cometo terms with going through
combat, surviving it, and Ithought, wow, that was very
recharging for me and it alsowas inspirational for other
people and, of course, they wereexpecting me to do this every
Memorial Day after that.
(12:02):
Well, that is fun.
You know, I want, I want to.
If I'm going to do 12 miles, Iwant to see the woods.
I want to.
Now, like set up a tent or ahammock.
Actually, the hammock camelater because I realized tents
are heavy.
I was like but it's so muchcooler.
I live in Texas.
It's hot out here, tents arejust stifling.
Oh, hammocks, you can coolunderneath.
I want that.
(12:23):
So, yeah, about eight years agoI did my first little
backpacking overnighter, just totry things out.
I had a homemade hammock that Imade from one of those blue
tarps you get at like oh, yeah,yeah.
I watched a lot of YouTubevideos to create it and I mean,
it was one of those blue tarps,so it was hot in the summer.
(12:44):
It was not fun at all and Ilearned later on you got to use
material like nylon or sillnylon and be close to water,
like there's like a trick to it.
But it was so comfortablethough, even though it was hot.
Yeah, it wasn't on the hardground and I felt like I was
floating in there and I loved it.
I fell in love with thesleeping part of backpacking.
Speaker 2 (13:04):
You know, that would probably be the only thing that
appeals to me Right, yeah.
Speaker 1 (13:09):
And in a hammock.
It is amazing because I call mycurrent hammock the time
machine, because every time Iget in it I am propelled two
hours into the future.
Just well, to me it's like that, it's instantaneous.
The reality is, two hoursreally do go by.
Yeah, fall asleep.
But I realized, yeah, hammocksare comfortable, the system is
(13:30):
lighter than intent and nobodyin my family is going with me
anyway, so I don't have to worryabout enough space for people
to be in there.
And so I kind of fell in lovewith hammock camping.
And then that same overnighttrip where I was kind of
breaking everything in, Irealized my backpack was kind of
it wasn't as comfortable as Iremember it.
(13:51):
Then I remembered it was nevercomfortable.
I hated it when I was in theArmy.
What's wrong with me?
And so I just I wound up insome backpacking groups on
Facebook as well as some hammockcamping groups and just started
to learn about this thingcalled ultralight backpacking.
I was like oh let me try that.
(14:12):
So first thing I did was I stillhave the rucksack that I use
for ruck marching for a workout.
But I immediately switched to abackpack that weighed 10 ounces
and 28 liter backpack, sopretty small.
I got it at Walmart for like$18, because the alternative was
like a big backpack that wasmade out of some special fabric
(14:33):
for $200 to $300.
And my wife was like no, wedon't make enough for that and
you've only gotten once.
You're not going to justify a$300 backpack for something you
did once.
So, yeah, that backpack's nowbeen with me for about seven
years 28 liter backpack, verysmall.
I think Walmart sells it as aday pack.
So you're throwing a jacket,some water and some snacks and
(14:55):
that's the day pack for me.
I can do a three to four daytrip off of that backpack,
really, yeah, and it's light, sowhat?
Speaker 2 (15:05):
are, depending on the time of year you go and where
you're going.
What are some of the absolutenecessities that you can fit in
that ultralight backpack thatWalmart thinks it's just a day
pack?
Speaker 1 (15:21):
Oh man.
So summer and spring is when Ihave the lightest, smallest pack
, so I still have lots of roomin there and I get to pack extra
snacks.
So the basic things that go inthere.
We're talking about a three day, two night trip.
For example, if I'm expectingrain, I have a poncho.
Actually, this is I don't knowif you use video or not, but my
(15:43):
wife got me a poncho slash tarpfor Christmas.
Uh huh, it's a cute.
So if it rains, I've got aponcho.
When it's time to set up camp,I've got a tarp and it's like
the size of a Coca-Cola can 12ounce Coca-Cola can yeah, I can
see it, and it weighs eightounces, so half a pound.
It replaced a tarp that weighedtwo pounds or a pound and a
(16:04):
half, so that's like rain gear.
I've got that.
Well, if it's cold, I mean,this becomes like a windshield
for me as well.
Change of clothes I don't reallybring a full set of clothes
with me.
On a three day trip, even afour or five day trip, I've
never taken a full change ofclothes, maybe an extra pair of
underwear and an extra pair ofsocks, and I find a way to wash
(16:27):
those in camp and then they'reair dried by the morning.
So I've got clean clothes.
It's just not a fresh set ofclothes for every single day.
So that's one way to shedweight is I don't bring as much
clothes Now in the car.
Brand new set of clothes.
I need options.
Yes, I am not going to stink upthe car because my wife will
(16:48):
make fun of me when I get home.
There is a whole new set ofstuff in the car when I'm done
with the trip, so in thebackpack itself.
So some socks, you know.
One extra pair, really extrapair of underwear.
My sleeping bag it's a downsleeping bag rated to 40 degrees
and I got it at Walmart forlike 20 bucks.
I think it's now like 30 bucks,but yeah, that's my only
(17:11):
sleeping bag and I've taken thatthing down consistently to
about 20 degrees and been justfine.
Oh, wow, okay.
And it all comes with layering.
So you know I have like clothingin the wintertime that I'll
wear.
And then I have a poncho liner.
That adds a little bit moreweight.
The poncho liner is rated tolike it's a blanket.
It's rated to 50 degrees.
(17:32):
Combine it with the sleepingbag.
I can now take that system downto about 30 degrees and then,
wearing like long johns to sleepin, I can now take my whole
system down to about 20 degreesand then underneath me in the
hammock, it's not just asleeping pad that's rated to 50
degrees, Underneath that is justa $1 solar screen that you get
(17:57):
at like a dollar store for, likeyour windshield, and underneath
my sleeping pad and I couldtake that.
That whole thing keeps metoasty in 20 degree weather.
Wow, so you learn how to layerthings and lower our eyes.
Is that a word?
It is now.
Speaker 2 (18:17):
Yep, it is now.
I'm writing it down, yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:20):
Everything works together in some way, shape or
form, even like empty yourbackpack and use that as like a
foot cover at night, so you havethat extra foot insulation, so
you don't get frostbite.
So, going back to thesummertime though, so yeah, you
already got the underwear, thesocks, I'll have a.
I have an ultralight stovecalled a BRS 3000.
(18:41):
Can we take a number?
It's on Amazon, it's like $15.
It's made of titanium, verylightweight, not the most
efficient stove ever, but it islight and it just screws on with
one of those canisters you buyfrom any store.
And my spoon is a bamboo longhandle spoon so I can cook and
(19:05):
not scrape up my pots or pans.
And, depending on how I feel, Iprobably spend more time
thinking about what cook kit I'mtaking with me.
I've got an aluminum pot where,if I'm just boiling water and
pouring that into my food torehydrate, I've got a one quart
aluminum pot that weighs likehalf a pound.
But if I want fresh eggs likefarm fresh eggs with bacon bits
(19:29):
and cheddar cheese and like goto town on breakfast, I take a
frying pan I bought at Daiso, soit's not even like an
ultralight piece of kit.
It is a six inch or eight inchfrying pan I found at Daiso for
like $5.
It weighs under a pound andthen I just I look at that
frying pan.
I'm like, okay, what do I shedTo?
Speaker 2 (19:50):
take that.
Speaker 1 (19:51):
To justify the frying pan, yeah, and I'm like well,
the extra pair of socks stay,something stupid like that.
So there's that, my hammock, abug net, the straps for the
hammock and then I already shownyou the tarp.
So I've got the basics forshelter, for food prep, and then
the basic 10.
(20:11):
I've got a small compass, it'slike a wristwatch type of, like
small toy compass.
And then what else?
Fire starter, so lighter, andthen for backup, matches or a
ferro rod, depending on how Ifeel and where I am on the
weight, like if I'm creepingabout 10 pounds, it's matches,
(20:32):
not the ferro rod, the littleiron like flint steel type of
things.
Speaker 2 (20:36):
And now being under 10 pounds?
Does that count your food aswell, or no, just your pack?
Speaker 1 (20:43):
Well, just the pack, the equipment with food, water
and fuel.
My total pack is around 15pounds in the summer and spring.
In the winter I get up to about18 pounds.
Speaker 2 (20:56):
Okay, that makes sense.
Speaker 1 (20:59):
Yeah, total weight and a lot of it has to do with
like knowing where the watersources are, too like water.
Like you start thinking aboutthese things.
Like you know how heavy is thefood.
You know if your food ispackaged in tin cans, like you
got those are heavy, right, andyou got to take the cans out
with you.
Like it's a very bad form tojust leave the cans where you
(21:21):
are and I always joke about it.
Kind of irks me when peopleleave like plastic bottles on
the trail.
It's like seriously, was itheavier empty than it was when
you carried it?
Speaker 2 (21:30):
in Exactly.
Speaker 1 (21:31):
Yeah, yeah, it's lighter.
You should have less excuse tonot carry that thing in.
But for me, like water, youknow it's two pounds per liter
or quart and so if you carry agallon of water with you, that's
eight pounds that you have withyou.
And one of the things I gotused to carrying is this, like
Sawyer squeeze.
It's in a plastic bag right nowbecause I'm trying to keep it
(21:53):
from drying out because it turnsout they can dry out.
Well, that's a hard way, if yougo too long between trips they
can dry out.
But I have a Sawyer squeeze.
It's a water filter that fits ontop of.
I've got like a one liter, likecollapsible canteen, kind of
like a water bag, and it justscrews on top of there and then
I use that to squeeze the waterinto my smart water bottle.
(22:16):
So, like the bottles that youcan get at the store, the one
smart bottles.
So a lot of people you'll seethem with like now gene bottles,
like it's like thick, heavyplastic because they're thinking
about it being rugged, butultralight backpackers like to
take as light as possible, so tothem you'll see the now gene
and it's like that is way tooheavy, whereas a smart water
bottle not only is light as afeather, but the threads on that
(22:40):
bottle fit a water filterperfectly.
These are a catadine beef freetype of thing, and so it's like
already the thinking, if I needto like.
If I burst that little bag Iused for filtering, I could just
put dirty water in the smartbottle, screw my filter on there
and drink straight from that.
Speaker 2 (23:00):
Oh, and it filters it , filters it, wow Okay.
Speaker 1 (23:04):
Yeah.
So you got like a redundancywithout actually packing extra
stuff.
It's like okay, and so ifthere's a lot of water sources,
I carry just one liter with meat all times.
In Texas I wound up carryingtwo liters.
And once in a while if I'm so,knowing how much water I need to
take in an hour or every threeto four miles, you know, till
(23:25):
the next water source it's like.
So if there's like a watersource every three to four miles
, I'll carry one liter.
If it's going to be about six,seven or eight miles, I'll carry
two.
If it's a longer stretch thanthat, I'll camel up.
I'll actually have a fullgallon on me somewhere.
Oh wow, I'm drinking that asfast as I can.
Speaker 2 (23:43):
It's like, especially in Texas too.
Speaker 1 (23:45):
That's how I get so hot.
A lot of us out here in Texasdon't backpack from, I'd say,
may until October.
Speaker 2 (23:53):
That's a good reason.
Speaker 1 (23:56):
If they do, they go out of state.
They go to, like Oklahoma,colorado, utah, wherever there's
mountains and weather, they'llgo there.
So yeah it's very light.
A lot of stuff like the pack issmaller.
A lot of my equipment is eithercut down to the bare minimum or
the types of equipment I carryis the bare minimum.
Remember, on one trip I took itwas one of my earlier ones and
(24:22):
I had this little.
I don't have it in here with me, but it's a small little pocket
knife that it's a Swiss Armyknife.
It's got a small like inch anda half blade, maybe a one inch
blade on it.
It's got a file in case I wantto work on my nails, I guess,
and scissors and some tweezers.
It's very lightweight comparedto my other knife it's like a
three inch blade Gerber knifeand so I switched off for the
(24:44):
smaller one because for the mostpart I don't need a big Rambo
knife.
I don't need a survival knife.
I'm not going to go off thetrail and bushcraft I could have
a hand too, but I don't have to.
That's just not the reason I'mgoing out there.
But I remember running intosomebody that he had this like
staff, like a walking stick.
(25:04):
He looked like Gandalf butdifferent, and so he saw me
getting my stuff ready to go onthe trail and he walked up to
see if I wanted to hike out withhim.
But we were going differentpaths after all.
But I couldn't help but noticehe had this like staff, that was
his walking stick.
At the top of the walking stickhe had a big like hunting knife
strapped to the top with thesheath on it.
(25:27):
But I asked him what that wasfor and he said you know, in
case you run into wild hogs outhere, you want to be able to
defend yourself.
And I was like gosh, I did myresearch and there are no
armadillos and you know, but youdon't have to worry about them.
I didn't tell this guy thatlike he was convinced we're
going to run into hogs out here.
But I already knew from myresearch we weren't going to run
(25:49):
into that.
But you know, everybody hikestheir own hike.
But I also noticed he not onlyhad this basically a spear on
his shoulder strap of hisbackpack, he had like a Marine
Corps K bar knife ready to go onhis hip.
He had another survival knifeready to go.
Like the guy had like fourknives on him just in case.
(26:09):
And that was like one of thethings that just blew my mind
was like this guy carried threeknives too many because of the
phrase just in case.
And you see a lot of peoplepack themselves down with just
in cases.
You know, I'm going to bring aponcho and a rain suit just in
case.
I'm going to bring this extrafood or this extra water just in
(26:30):
case.
I'm going to bring an extra setof clothes all together just in
case.
And all these add up to a heavypack.
And something I heard abackpacker a neutral light
backpacker say was that we tendto pack our fears.
Speaker 2 (26:46):
I was absolutely going to say that.
I was like you, always want tobe prepared and and you have the
time you don't know what you'repreparing yourself for.
Sometimes, what what you'repreparing yourself for is far
worse than what reality is goingto happen.
Speaker 1 (27:05):
Exactly.
Yeah, you know we're expectingto run into, like this guy, a
pack of hogs out in the middleof nowhere and I've actually run
into a pack of hogs before.
But I kept my distance, youknow, I just kept my head on a
swivel and I saw them.
They're like 100 yards away.
Speaker 2 (27:18):
Yeah, I'd be up the first tree.
Speaker 1 (27:22):
Well, I stood there just wondering what do you do
when you're faced with a pack ofwild hogs?
I didn't know, like I was likeI researched bobcats they run
away from you.
I researched deer they run awayfrom you.
I researched birds unlessyou're dead, they're not going
to pick on you.
I was like wild hogs.
I should have researched wildhogs.
Okay, when I get home, if Imake it out of this, they're 100
(27:44):
yards away.
They were never coming towardsme, but I looked it up later on.
It's like they're almost blindas a bat.
Like they, they're sticking totheir, their what's right in
front of them.
They're looking for truffles,they're looking for grubs.
As long as you don't spook them.
When you're right up on them,you give them their space,
they're going to move on.
I was like all right, cool,that's good to know.
Speaker 2 (28:04):
For next time?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, you know.
I wanted to ask you.
In one you mentioned that yourfamily doesn't go with you.
Do you always backpack alone?
Speaker 1 (28:17):
Most of the time, yes , because my family doesn't like
to go out there.
Now a lot of my friends tell methey want to go out there and
be manly men and let's go.
And I'm sorry, guys, I'm goingto throw you under the bus here.
Every time we've planned a trip, it evolves like this it starts
off with one guy saying we needto reconnect with God and just
(28:39):
be manly men and get out innature and commune with each
other.
Commune with what God hascreated, and that's that's.
And you'll just talk about howhis parents were Marines and he,
you know, he leaves out thepart where he wasn't.
But he's like he gets everybodyriled up and like, great, well,
I'm available this weekend,this one and this one.
And somebody else says, well,I'm available for that one.
(29:01):
And the other guy says, yep, metoo, and so we get a date
longer.
Boom, well, that first guy goesradio silent for the next two
months.
He just put his money where hismouth is, and so that's him.
He disappears off the map.
He's not involved in planningat all.
Now the other guys who commit.
One of them starts asking hey,so is it like a place where we
(29:23):
could drive a Jeep up to,because I have the like this new
setup with my Jeep and I'd loveto be able to like just unroll
that.
He's talking more overlanding,and the other guy that's
committed, he's like is theregoing to be running water out
there?
It's called a river.
Yeah, I mean like facilities, Ineed facilities, and it's like.
And then the other guy is like,yeah, you know, it'd be really
(29:45):
great if we could like plug in aplasma TV and watch some movies
out there about camping.
And I'm like, so what itevolves to is, you know, it's
it's going to be glamping in theend.
And so I go on occasion withthem just to appease them and
make them feel like they'rethey're getting out there.
But if I want to get out there,I just need to go.
And so, like last minute, it'slike you know what I've got a
(30:08):
three or four day weekend.
I didn't expect my family's allgot plans for themselves.
I can hit this trail, get therein four hours, and this is my
out and back.
Or I can do a loop and it'slike planned right away and
there's no time to get otherpeople on board.
But I do have a small group offriends there in a Facebook
group called Backpacking andHiking Texas and we meet up at a
(30:30):
place once every year or two atLos Maple State Natural Area
and there's like eight to 12 ofus at a given moment and we kind
of just see what everybody'sgot and it's like the one time
we get together.
Speaker 2 (30:39):
Nice, Nice, I was thinking you know safety wise.
Now I know you're formermilitary, but even just safety
wise to be out.
And again I'm looking at itthrough my lens of yeah, there's
no way in hell you'll get meout in the woods alone by myself
, with the potential of wildhogs.
(31:02):
But from a from a safetyperspective.
Have you ever, you know,started getting somebody to go
with, just in case?
Here we go again.
Speaker 1 (31:16):
I, I asked folks and a lot of times they're not
available.
The one time where I did becomelike a liability to folks was a
time when I went with a group,but then again it was East Texas
during the summertime, likeJuly and very hot, so it was
like 98 degrees, but with thehumidity it felt like 100
(31:37):
something and I was woefullyunderprepared for that.
So it was with a group of fourother hikers and they almost had
to carry me out of therebecause I was pushing myself,
because I was around people.
It was like a false sense ofsecurity, with all this knowing
what my body is capable of andbeing aware of like I've got to
(31:58):
make myself rest every hourgetting some shade, sit down,
drink water, drink a certainamount of water, eat some salty
snacks, eat some beef jerky andjust rest for 10 minutes.
Finding myself to be aware oftime, distance and making myself
rest because the military guyand me will just push on until I
(32:19):
hit the destination.
You can die later, just getthere.
And it's like no, you got totake breaks, you got to rest,
it's okay to rest.
So then my stepdad had taughtme was because he and I did a
trip a few years ago and he wasstopping like every gosh, I'd
say 300 to 400 yards, mostly forme to catch up to him, because
(32:41):
we have longer.
We're going up a mountain andhe's resting just a few seconds,
just enough for me to catch mybreath, and then we move on
because he knows I'm alsoacclimating to this mountain and
so just taking the time he'slike the trail's going to be
there.
We've got everything we need,ideally.
Yes, we'd like to get to thisdestination, but you got to get
(33:02):
to the destination healthy andalive.
There's some safety things thatI put into place.
When I go out alone, I get amap, I print off a map of where
I'm going and I mark off ofthere for my wife.
This is where I'm going to park, this is where I plan to be,
this is my route, no matter what.
This is my route.
(33:22):
So I'm going to do this loop,I'm going to go out and back,
whatever it is.
So this is my route and I'llhighlight that on the map.
This is where I plan to camp onday one.
On night number two, we'll behere and then I should be back
to the car by this time.
You should hear from me by noonof this day, driving back
already Worst case scenariothree or four o'clock because I
(33:46):
decided to lull a gag on thelast day.
Whatever it, is.
You should hear from me by then.
There's not going to be signalout there, so there's no way for
me to get in touch with you.
So if I'm not back by Monday,you know exactly where to send
people and she knows I'm good atland navigation.
Because of that I was reallygood at land navigation, like I
(34:06):
could tell you what mountain I'mon.
If you give me a good map andyou give me some good as in this
to play with, where somelandmarks to look at, I can tell
you by triangulation this iswhere I am and that's if I need
it.
I mean, my phone has a GPS onit, so it's like this is exactly
where I am.
I know where I am.
So, yeah, I stay on trail.
I don't go off the beaten path.
(34:28):
I stayed on my route andthere's plenty to see on the
route and I try to stick to mytimetable just so I could be
back to when I need to be back,being aware of water sources.
So that's the other thing, likefrom running low on water, I
don't push it.
Food again, making myself eat,rest, resting my feet, checking
(34:52):
my feet, making sure my feetstay dry.
So that's another beautifulthing about ultralight
backpacking you got less weighton you and so therefore, your
shoes don't have to be theseheavy weight boots.
You see a lot of people withbig hiking boots and then they
laugh at me when I show up withlike these knit running shoes,
like these very lightweightrunning shoes and what are those
(35:14):
?
I'm like these are my hikingshoes.
And I'm like are you insane?
We're going over rocks.
I'm like, yeah, my backpackweighs 15 pounds, how about you?
And they're like it's like 40.
Like, well you boots?
I don't.
I'm much more nimble.
My feet don't collect waterbecause they're mesh tops, so
it's just in my feet are always.
(35:35):
And so I've never had a blisterhiking ultralight, whereas I got
blisters all the time hiking inboots and the heavy pack.
So with this ultralight pack,with the lightweight shoes, I'm
moving faster, I'm seeing morestuff.
Speaker 2 (35:48):
I would imagine you could.
If you, if, if you were withother folks, you could actually
go deeper into your hike ordeeper off the beaten path,
because your pack is so muchlighter and you and you have
everything you need, and I wouldexpect that maybe that would
lead to some really uniqueexperiences that most hikers
(36:11):
don't get to have, because it'syou know too dangerous.
With 40, 50 pounds on theirback, what?
What have been some of the thewow moments from your light or
your ultralight backpackingadventures?
Speaker 1 (36:27):
Man, some of my favorite ones.
The most recent trip, secondthe most recent trip, I went to
Big Bend National Park and acowboy camp.
So I didn't even have hammock,not allowed to hang anything up
anyway, and I just had groundcloth, sleeping bag, stars, and
it was.
It was nighttime, I was kind ofwinding down.
I had a little bit of signal soI was texting him like, hey,
(36:49):
what you know here, check thispicture out.
I took this earlier today on aday hike and I heard some
rustling about 15, 20 feet awayfrom me.
I look over my shoulder andit's a coyote, oh God, and it's
sniffing around because my, mybuddy, who did go out there with
me, he was like, what do we dowith, like, the water from our
dishes?
I'm like, well, you justdisperse it.
(37:10):
Uh, some backpacks are like, no, you drink it.
I'm like, no, that's gross, I'mnot doing that.
So I showed him how youdisperse it and you just spray
it like, so it has almost noscent.
He dispersed it all into onebush, and this coyote smelled it
.
And so he sniffed around thatbush and I'm like, oh boy,
there's a coyote right there,which is cool.
If I stay quiet, he's not goingto notice me, but then he
(37:34):
noticed me and he came up like apuppy dog and I'm like oh no,
no, no, no.
Speaker 2 (37:38):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (37:39):
And I'm like I'm trying to scare it away.
But this thing was, this coyotewas so comfortable with me that
it like cowered and likecreeping up to me for a snack.
I'm like, no, no, no, I hadnothing go get away.
And so it started to go away andI don't know why, but I wanted
to make some more noises tospook it, but instead I made I
don't know why, but I went, Icalled him back to me and he got
(38:03):
happy.
He's like, oh yeah.
And he's like, oh my gosh, hethinks I have food.
I don't have food on me and so,finally this is why I don't
have a picture of him I'm trying, like, while I'm keeping my eye
on the coyote, I'm trying tofind my trekking pole so I have
something in case he attacks.
And I'm trying, like, withoutlooking at my phone, to activate
the light so I can shine it atthe coyote and scare it.
(38:25):
And I'm trying to do all thisat the same time and he's just
kind of getting closer.
He's looking for a.
Finally, I get the light on andI, I stand up, like another
Gandalf reference.
I stand up, I put my arms outwide and I say I'm bigger than
you, it's enough running andleft.
(38:46):
But as soon as that was done, Itexted my family.
I'm like you won't believe whatjust happened.
This was so cool.
And they're like dad.
This is why we don't go.
We would all be in the carleaving or at least on the trail
running, and you're like thiswas so cool.
I'm like I knew what I wasinvolved with, like I had enough
awareness of, like okay, thethe Coyote came up to me because
(39:08):
somebody had fed it yeah, open,fed on a regular basis so it
associated me with dinner, notas I was dinner, but I had
dinner to give him.
And so I was aware of that andI had to kind of remind it.
No, no, no, no, you got to goand it's that campsite was just
on its circuit, you know,whatever two or three day route
(39:29):
it does.
Huh, that was part of out.
Speaker 2 (39:31):
So that was one of them alone.
Speaker 1 (39:34):
He was by himself.
Yeah, no pack, huh, no pack.
Now I heard them later on inthe night, like three or four in
the morning.
I'm like, okay, well, they'refar away, but that one was alone
.
That I know of.
But Paternalis Falls State Parkin Texas, and I was able to set
my hammock up at the ledge of acliff and it was like a 40 or
(39:58):
50 foot drop, but I set it up sothat I, when I woke up, I could
look through the trees and seethe river going by.
Pretty, it was so nice and thisis like November, so there were
no leaves and and sure enough,in the morning I heard birds
chirping.
I look out of my hammock I'mstill resting quite comfortably
(40:19):
in my hammock and I just look tomy left and there's the river,
and I could hear the riverrunning over the rocks.
Ah, this is it, this is thelife, and it was so cool to wake
up like that.
And so that's another one.
And then the trip I took with mystepdad probably the most
adventurous, I would say.
(40:39):
That was a Wintertime, justafter Christmas.
We, we had a campfire going,and then that night was also
very cold, it was like 15degrees.
This is when I learned how tolayer properly, because I didn't
do it properly that day.
I had my 40 degree Sleeping bag.
(41:00):
I had all my clothes on, but myunderside insulation was not
there, so it was a cold night.
I remember waking up in themiddle of the night.
We were not in eyesight of eachother.
Okay yeah, the trees I neededfor my hammock were quite a
distance from him, but Iremember hearing wrestling In,
cracking of leaves and so on andI thought it was my stepdad in
(41:21):
the middle of the night going tothe bathroom.
That's why I'm up, that it'scold, so I do my business.
I get back in my hammock and Istill hear that rustling around.
I'm like wow, what is hedigging?
Speaker 2 (41:36):
God.
Speaker 1 (41:37):
It's cold, I'd wait till morning and start a fire.
And yeah, it's cold, it's.
So when morning came, he's,he's up.
He's already drinking a cup ofcoffee.
He's got his breakfast going.
I get my breakfast go.
And he asked how I slept.
I said really well.
And he asked if I got up at all.
It's like yeah, a couple oftimes to go to the bathroom and
and how about you?
(41:57):
And he goes now, once I'm in mytent, I'm out.
The whole night I was like huh.
Speaker 2 (42:03):
What, what did you hear?
Did you go looking forfootprints?
Speaker 1 (42:08):
I Well, our food bag was in that area, and he just
says it matter of factly,because he's from North Carolina
.
He's, he looks like SylvesterStallone, but with a thick
country accent.
Like, yeah, I'm out all night,you just once.
I'm in that tent, I'm sleeping.
I slept good, it wasn't, it wasnice, I was nice and cozy.
He's like why I was like well, Iheard something wrestling
(42:30):
around where your tent area wasand I thought it was you going
to the bathroom.
He goes nope, I was out.
You know, I could have been,though, could have been a bear.
Think, maybe, maybe that thatbear we heard had some cubs, and
Where'd you hear the rustling?
And I pointed and he goes oh,isn't our food over there?
I'm like yeah, it is.
He goes, you know what?
I think it was after our food.
(42:51):
He's just like kind of coolabout it.
I'm saying I'm thinking I'msorry what?
There was a bear in ourcampsite and I was up and out of
my hammock when it was in ourcampsite.
Like we go.
He goes, yeah, I figured thepark rangers gonna be up here
anyway, because we had acampfire.
Okay, let's go.
And so when I saw you know thearea where I heard the wrestling
(43:15):
.
There were scratch marks in thetrees.
That was not so it had beenthere and it had found our food.
It was scratching the tree totry to get the food.
Scratching the tree justbecause they scratch trees and
on the whole hike out.
There are multiple trees wherewe saw bear sign, like scratches
in the trees that weren't therethe day before.
He goes.
(43:36):
Wow, you know, I think the bearcame up this way.
Yeah, thank you.
So the bear is ahead of us, notbehind us.
He goes.
Hey, ma be, you think it'd beat the car he goes.
Well, I hope not, because wegotta go.
It was no, or it nowhere nearus.
(43:57):
There was nothing in theparking lot when we got back to
the car.
Speaker 2 (44:00):
What advice do you have for somebody that wants to
transition into Ultralightbackpacking?
I mean it's lighter.
So you know Common sense, those.
To me it's lighter.
I ain't getting any younger.
It's gonna be easier for me toTo maintain.
You know what I want to do whenI'm out on a trail, and when I
(44:23):
say I I mean figuratively, don'tmean literally, and you know
that it's easier on your body.
You know the, the simplicity ofit.
I think is Is something thatwould be really attractive.
But if somebody is really Triedand true regular backpacker,
(44:46):
what advice would you have ifthey were interested in
transitioning?
Speaker 1 (44:50):
Yeah, the first thing that I got was one of those
kitchen scales the real smallones that you can wear your food
yeah.
Yeah.
So I have one of those.
It's like right outside thispodcast studio, like in my home
office, because I'm Jerry, oncein a while I just want to weigh
a carabiner, my stuff.
(45:12):
So get one of those and get afree account on a website called
lighter packcom, okay, and youcan inventory all your gear and
kind of mix and match everythingso that you know what you're
packing or what you're gonnaweigh before you even put it all
together.
From there I look at the bigthree.
The big three are the pack, theback or the other backpack, the
(45:37):
sleeping bag and your shelter.
So, whether that's a tarp or atent, and if you can reduce the
weight on those three thingsalone, you're you're gonna see
the biggest weight savings.
Now it could get more expensive.
Now my route I went to Walmart28 liter pack.
It forces me to bring lessBecause I also have a pack
(46:00):
that's 40 liters and I alwaysoverpack and like I'm never
ultralight when I take that,it's like I could take the stool
, I could take a second stoveand bacon at the same time.
It's like I started thinkingabout those extras and it
started creeping in.
So, yeah, a cheap backpackthat's got enough size to go
spring or summer.
(46:21):
Look at your, your sleeping bag.
If it's a polyester type offill, you can get a good down
one off of Walmart for like $30.
I think.
It's ready down 40 degrees.
But again, summertime you,unless you live up in the
mountain top, you don't needanything below 40 degrees.
It's spring and summer and soyou don't need a 10 degree
(46:44):
sleeping bag in the summertime.
It's you're just gonna kick itoff anyway.
And then tents.
You know, for some folks thatmight be the last thing they
want to get rid of.
For me it was one of the firstthings I ditched, I ditched, I
ditched the tent all together togo hammock camping.
So I just needed a hammock anda tarp and I started looking at
that system.
But those are the big threebackpack, shelter and sleeping
(47:08):
okay and Bring that down to whatyou realistically need For the
season you're going camping andand be.
You know like you don't need athree season tent.
If you're going out during thesummertime, you might just need
to tarp in a bug net, and so youknow, just looking at, what do
I really need for this?
Speaker 2 (47:25):
So last, question what's your next big adventure,
what's your next big challenge?
Speaker 1 (47:33):
There's a friend of mine who does sections of the
Appalachian Trail.
He's one of the guys who is nota backpacker, so he's been
telling me for years that whathe would love to do is, since I
want a section hike and he justwants to hike during the day, he
could drop me off at like pointA.
He'll drive to point B, hikeback until he meets up with me.
(47:56):
We hike the rest of the way topoint B, camp in the woods
somewhere, so I'm always on thetrail doing my thing where it's
popping.
Wherever the trip is for thatweek or two weeks, he's my ride
to the airport, so he's pickingme up because he'll drive out
there.
We'll leapfrog sections likethat and he'll take me to where
(48:17):
I need to go to get home.
So I threw it at him like, hey,we should plan that.
So I don't know when, but I'dsay early 2024,.
I'll start checking off thebucket list that I've hiked the
Appalachian Trail.
I'm not through hike the thing,but I think hitting in sections
and getting all of it that waywill still make me happy.
(48:41):
But between now and 2024, thereare a couple of spots in
Oklahoma that I haven't been toyet.
Broken bow, that area is verybeautiful, that's nice.
There's a loop there that Ithink I want to break in and use
as a break in kind of dust, thecobwebs off, kind of thing.
And then Eagle Rock Loop inArkansas is a 28, I think, or
(49:04):
almost 30 mile loop.
It's got river crossings, verybeautiful alams, lots of pine
trees, bears, it's going to befun.
So I want to do more of that.
And yeah, just see, becauseI've done a lot of Texas.
Texas is flat, it's hot, it'skind of the same old thing.
(49:26):
I want to get up in Oklahomaand hit some of those trails.
Oh, that's awesome, awesome.
Speaker 2 (49:33):
Jerry, I can't thank you enough for your time.
I loved having thisconversation with you.
Where can folks find you online?
Speaker 1 (49:45):
Yeah, so my podcast is called Beyond the Rut and
it's a show about sharingstories and practical tools that
help you create the life thatyou feel is worth living in your
faith, your family and career.
And you can find that atbeyondtherutcom and that's got
links to the podcast episodes,blog posts.
I don't think I have my book onthere.
(50:07):
So if you want the book, whichis like the 124 page version of
the podcast it's called Beyondthe Rut Create a Life Worth
Living in your Faith, family andCareer and that's on Amazon you
can go to beyondtherutcom.
It'll take you right there.
And if you want to listen to itand you don't want to pay for
it or you don't have the moneyfor it, I still want you to get
the content.
You can get the audiobook forfree beyond therutcom and you
(50:33):
just felt the form and I'llemail you access to the
audiobook.
Speaker 2 (50:37):
Awesome, jerry.
I'll have all those links inyour show notes.
And again, thank you so much.
I've learned a lot I.
There's always a big joke.
I have a very good friend whois an avid hiker and the joke is
, you'll never get me out there.
But if I could pack lightly andguarantee no bears or snakes,
(51:04):
that's the big one.
I mean talk about this.
Speaker 1 (51:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (51:09):
I may consider joining her for a little section
of her section of theAppalachian Trail when she gets
up to Massachusetts.
Speaker 1 (51:16):
So, jerry, If she doesn't eat day training, just
do a day hike with her.
Speaker 2 (51:21):
Yeah, I told her it had to be flat.
I have requirements.
Speaker 1 (51:27):
Don't bring her in my room, yeah.
Speaker 2 (51:29):
Yeah, she said there's a part out on Western
Mass that's very flat, likeCharlton Mass area, so who knows
?
But I will definitely stay intouch with you and again, cannot
thank you enough for all yourtime tonight.
Speaker 1 (51:44):
Oh, my pleasure.
Thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (51:53):
Jerry is such a super down to earth guy and I really
had fun chatting with him.
I learned a lot aboutultralight backpacking and some
of the reasons he's sopassionate about it, From the
cathartic heavy duty hike he didon Memorial Day to the
commuting with nature he's ableto do on his solo trips, and
(52:15):
even the quality time he spendswith his friends glamping or
dodging bears with his stepdad.
And of course, we can't forgetthe wild boars.
This man will never run out ofstories.
Although I'm not chomping atthe bit to go hiking, what
really resonated with me abouthis passion was what a great
(52:39):
metaphor for traveling throughlife ultralight backpacking is.
Don't pack your fears.
Take what you really need,because what you don't need just
weighs you down, slows you downand keeps you from being in the
moment.
And traveling lightly helps yougo further, explore more,
(53:01):
experience more and enjoy more,and for those reasons I'm
becoming a fan of the ultralightbackpacking mindset.
If you're interested in learningmore about Jerry, his podcast
Beyond the Rut or any of theresources he talked about, jump
down to the show notes for allthe links and if you're enjoying
(53:26):
the content, it would help megrow the podcast if you could do
two quick things Written reviewthe podcast, especially if
you're a Spotify or Applepodcast listener.
A five-star written reviewhelps get the podcast in front
of others who might enjoy thecontent as well.
(53:47):
And the second thing share thepodcast with a friend or your
Facebook network or yourLinkedIn network.
Short shows, word of mouth.
Podcast recommendations are thenumber one way podcast
listeners find new content tolisten to.
(54:09):
I'd appreciate it if you couldhelp the podcast out in those
two ways, and I would also loveto connect with you on social
media so you can connect with meon the Assorted Conversations
podcast Facebook page In ourFacebook community, where you
can interact with otherlisteners as well as our guests.
(54:29):
Follow the podcast on Twitterand Instagram, or you can simply
just drop me an email ataconvosepod at gmailcom.
All the links are in the shownotes.
So until next time, be bold, beblind to your challenges and
(54:52):
follow your passions.
Thanks for listening and I'llsee you in two weeks.
Every day people following their passions.
Speaker 1 (00:14):
That's probably like one of the highlights of my life
so far.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Just being able to be creative, like that Something
of a whisper.
Speaker 1 (00:23):
And then I decided to get another hive and that
turned into a lot of hives.
As long as I can do that, Iwant to be a good citizen and
help people out.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
Putting themselves out there, taking chances and
navigating challenges along theway.
I absolutely identified withhaving stage fright, because any
time I went on stage I justfelt like I was having a hot
attack.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
Very first lap, very first practice session.
I crashed, Turned the carupside down, made a spectacle of
myself and I got back on thathorse and started riding again.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
As they pursue what makes them happy and brings them
joy.
As long as people are having agood time and I have the
opportunity to put smiles onpeople's faces, I love what I do
.
I have done things that I neverthought I could do.
This is Assorted Conversations,and I'm your host, helen.
(01:17):
Hello, hello, hello and welcomeif you're listening to Assorted
Conversations for the firsttime, and welcome back if you're
tuning in again.
Now for this week's episode.
I got to start by saying I amthe world's worst packer when it
(01:41):
comes to getting ready to takeoff on a trip, probably part of
the reason I've never consideredbackpacking as something I'd
like to explore.
This week's guest shed somelight on things for me as it
relates to his love ofultralight backpacking.
In the US, the term ultralightoften refers to backpackers who
(02:03):
carry gear with a base weight of10 pounds or less, and base
weight is considered the weightof your pack and your gear, your
supplies.
It doesn't include food and itdoesn't include water.
By contrast, traditionalbackpackers have a base weight
of anywhere from 15 to 30 poundsand can go all the way up to 55
(02:28):
pounds in some cases If huntingequipment or fishing equipment
or even video equipment is beinghauled along the trails.
A little history on ultralightbackpacking.
It was popularized by Americanrock climber Ray Jardine, whose
1992 book, the PCT HikersHandbook, which was later
(02:53):
retitled Beyond Backpacking,laid the foundation for many
techniques that ultralightbackpackers use today.
Although Jardine is creditedfor popularizing ultralight
backpacking, traveling light onthe trails, can trace its roots
back to George Sears, who in thelate 1800s hiked the
(03:15):
Appalachian Trail with only awaxed canvas tarp walking stick,
a small pan and a dual-bladedhatchet.
He also wrote a book about thatexperience in 1884.
The book is entitled Woodcraft,so I don't know if you can hit
up Alibris to get a copy of that, but that would be interesting
(03:39):
to take a look at.
And then another early pioneerwas Grandma Gatewood, who threw
height to the Appalachian Trailin 1955 with only a duffel bag
containing an army blanket, aplastic sheet, an umbrella and a
few cooking utensils Not myidea of a fun camping trip.
(04:02):
However, my guest this week,ultralight backpacker and fellow
podcaster, jerry Dugan, isprobably thankful for the
advancements made since GeorgeSears and Grandma Gatewood's
time.
Get ready to take a peek intothe challenging yet highly
rewarding experience of being anultralight backpacker, and I'll
(04:25):
see you on the other side.
This week's guest, jerry Dugan,has eight years of ultralight
backpacking experience throughthe Midwest area.
Please help me welcome JerryDugan to Astorta Conversations.
(04:47):
Hey there, jerry.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
Hey Helen, Thanks for having me on here.
I'm excited because we'retalking about something I love.
Speaker 2 (04:54):
That is great.
Well, good, I'm glad you liketo talk about this.
I've got to ask you what isultralight backpacking?
Speaker 1 (05:03):
All right.
So backpacking itself is whereyou just it's camping and hiking
put together, and so everythingyou're going to need for your
trip you carry on your back,hence backpack, and you put it
in a backpack.
You know that's different thanpeople just pulling up to a
campsite unloading the coolerthe tent the stairs.
If you're my brother, you pullup with a trailer, with a TV
(05:26):
screen, xbox, all those thingsLike.
To him that's camping, to meI'm like no, that's moving, I
don't want to do that.
So backpacking is you minimizedown to what you need to go out
camping.
And then ultralight backpackingtakes it a step further.
That says I don't need to carrya 30 to 40 pound pack.
(05:49):
I can go further, faster, if Ican keep my base weight to under
10 pounds.
And the base weight is just thebasics, your equipment, and not
counting your food or your fuelor your water.
So it's things like yoursleeping bag, changes of
clothing, toilet trees, sleepingpad, tent, all those and your
(06:12):
pack weighing 10 pounds or less.
So that's ultralightbackpacking and you just look
for ways to minimize the amountof weight you're carrying.
And so I think my average baseweight, especially during the
summertime, is around 8 and ahalf to 9 pounds.
Now, fall, winter, especiallywintertime, under 15 pounds is
(06:33):
considered ultralight becauseyou got to bring some extra
stuff or you can die, and wedon't want to die out there.
So I think my ultralight weightduring the winter is around 12
to 13 pounds.
Wow Well now I know why I am nota backpacker ultralight or
regular, because when I go onvacation I can't get my luggage
(06:54):
under 50 pounds, so, and I thinkhalf of that's my hair dryer,
but anyway, oh man, my, my, myfriends are amazed, Like when I
just did a work trip last weekand I went to Fort Lauderdale
for a couple days and everythingI needed my laptop, the
training materials I took withme and my clothes, as well as
(07:16):
leisure all fit into onebackpack and I also brought a
tripod and some microphones andremotes and things like that All
that in a one backpack andeverybody's like how?
Why?
I'm like, I just know how topack.
And so one of the things thatcarries over from ultralight is
that everything can havemultiple uses.
And so you know, a lot of folksthink in terms of redundancies
(07:39):
and ultralighters think of multiuses.
You know this one thing maybe ahandkerchief could be a sweat
bandana, my pot holder, mynapkin and, if needed, a bandage
in case I get hurt.
Speaker 2 (07:54):
And so you know, I'm like.
Speaker 1 (07:54):
I'm going to bring this one piece of clothing as
multiple uses.
So same thing when I go on awork trip.
I'm looking at the pants can beworn for work and leisure.
So I can I can take fewer pairsof pants.
I want to bring extra underwearthough, because you've got to.
That's gross.
Not to you say, okay, I bringone of everything and other
things.
You're like you know what.
(08:14):
This has multiple functions toit.
I could just bring the oneinstead of multiple.
So I can just do choice.
When I go on a work trip, youknow it's like it's a casual
shoe that can pass as a businessshoe, and it's like it's
comfortable and it looks goodand it's functional.
Speaker 2 (08:30):
So yeah, the same philosophy.
Speaker 1 (08:34):
Yeah, yeah, it's really seeped into everything I
do, anywhere I go.
I think terms of minimalistapproach, less is more, those
kinds.
Speaker 2 (08:44):
How did you go from regular backpacking to
ultralight?
Speaker 1 (08:49):
Yeah, my initial.
So in the history of Jerry, myoriginal camping experiences
were the traditional ones thatpeople would call glamping.
So you know, joined up withfamily who had, you know, they
drove up to a campsite and youhad to unload the car and it
just wasn't fun for me.
It's like gosh.
The cooler is heavy, it's.
You know everything's soggy andyou know they have all this
(09:11):
equipment.
You got to track the equipment.
You can't lose anything.
We always lose something and itjust seemed like too much
effort to go out in the woodsand enjoy the woods.
At some point I joined the armyand I'm like, yeah, this is
rugged army type of stuff.
I love it.
At least I thought that's whatI was signing up for.
And again, you're bringing lotsof equipment, bullets, body
(09:33):
armor, but it's still kind ofrugged, still kind of cool.
But a lot of my units weremechanized Mechanized.
So it was kind of like carcamping anyway, like we're going
to convert the home V into acamper.
Now it's like, yeah, that's soneat.
But what I really wanted to dowas like what you see in the
movies.
You know, we're going to put ona rucksack, we're going to go
out in the woods and we're goingto do our mission and come back
(09:53):
Like I want that.
So when I leave the army,there's a good decade that goes
by and I don't do any camping,no hiking, no backpacking.
I just want to reconnect withnature and have some sort of way
to diffuse from the work I doand just kind of reconnect with
myself and have time to reflect.
And I had read an article abouta guy who had also served in
(10:16):
Operation Iraqi Freedom.
So I was in that invasion in2003 with a third infantry
division and I had read anarticle from Backpacker Magazine
about a guy who had beenthrough, I think, afghanistan on
a couple of tours toAfghanistan and he was dealing
with things like PTSD anddepression and like survivors
(10:37):
guilt kind of stuff, and hehiked the entire Pacific Crest
Trail on his own solo and hewrote about how it just
recharged him and allowed him tothink through his thoughts,
have conversations with himselfthat he needed to have, and then
by the time he finished the2000 plus miles he was like I
feel healed and whole again, wow.
And so he still goes outbackpacking, from what I
(11:00):
understand.
But it was like this healingmoment for him and I thought one
Memorial Day about nine, maybe10 years ago, I just threw all
the weight I could into myrucksack.
I had my own personal Armyrucksack or backpack and I just
loaded all the weight I couldinto that.
I put on my combat boots that Istill had.
And on Memorial Day thisparticular year, almost a decade
(11:21):
ago, I did a 12 mile road marchjust to do it and clear my head
and it was the most healingthing I could have done in my
entire life.
It allowed me, in the fourhours it took me, to complete
those 12 miles.
And I know other veterans arelike that took you that long?
I'm like, yeah, guys, it tookme a little long.
My legs are short.
So if your Army standard is,yeah, quiet, I'm not in the Army
(11:42):
, but anyway, like in those fourhours though, it just cleared
my head, it allowed me to cometo terms with going through
combat, surviving it, and Ithought, wow, that was very
recharging for me and it alsowas inspirational for other
people and, of course, they wereexpecting me to do this every
Memorial Day after that.
(12:02):
Well, that is fun.
You know, I want, I want to.
If I'm going to do 12 miles, Iwant to see the woods.
I want to.
Now, like set up a tent or ahammock.
Actually, the hammock camelater because I realized tents
are heavy.
I was like but it's so muchcooler.
I live in Texas.
It's hot out here, tents arejust stifling.
Oh, hammocks, you can coolunderneath.
I want that.
(12:23):
So, yeah, about eight years agoI did my first little
backpacking overnighter, just totry things out.
I had a homemade hammock that Imade from one of those blue
tarps you get at like oh, yeah,yeah.
I watched a lot of YouTubevideos to create it and I mean,
it was one of those blue tarps,so it was hot in the summer.
(12:44):
It was not fun at all and Ilearned later on you got to use
material like nylon or sillnylon and be close to water,
like there's like a trick to it.
But it was so comfortablethough, even though it was hot.
Yeah, it wasn't on the hardground and I felt like I was
floating in there and I loved it.
I fell in love with thesleeping part of backpacking.
Speaker 2 (13:04):
You know, that would probably be the only thing that
appeals to me Right, yeah.
Speaker 1 (13:09):
And in a hammock.
It is amazing because I call mycurrent hammock the time
machine, because every time Iget in it I am propelled two
hours into the future.
Just well, to me it's like that, it's instantaneous.
The reality is, two hoursreally do go by.
Yeah, fall asleep.
But I realized, yeah, hammocksare comfortable, the system is
(13:30):
lighter than intent and nobodyin my family is going with me
anyway, so I don't have to worryabout enough space for people
to be in there.
And so I kind of fell in lovewith hammock camping.
And then that same overnighttrip where I was kind of
breaking everything in, Irealized my backpack was kind of
it wasn't as comfortable as Iremember it.
(13:51):
Then I remembered it was nevercomfortable.
I hated it when I was in theArmy.
What's wrong with me?
And so I just I wound up insome backpacking groups on
Facebook as well as some hammockcamping groups and just started
to learn about this thingcalled ultralight backpacking.
I was like oh let me try that.
(14:12):
So first thing I did was I stillhave the rucksack that I use
for ruck marching for a workout.
But I immediately switched to abackpack that weighed 10 ounces
and 28 liter backpack, sopretty small.
I got it at Walmart for like$18, because the alternative was
like a big backpack that wasmade out of some special fabric
(14:33):
for $200 to $300.
And my wife was like no, wedon't make enough for that and
you've only gotten once.
You're not going to justify a$300 backpack for something you
did once.
So, yeah, that backpack's nowbeen with me for about seven
years 28 liter backpack, verysmall.
I think Walmart sells it as aday pack.
So you're throwing a jacket,some water and some snacks and
(14:55):
that's the day pack for me.
I can do a three to four daytrip off of that backpack,
really, yeah, and it's light, sowhat?
Speaker 2 (15:05):
are, depending on the time of year you go and where
you're going.
What are some of the absolutenecessities that you can fit in
that ultralight backpack thatWalmart thinks it's just a day
pack?
Speaker 1 (15:21):
Oh man.
So summer and spring is when Ihave the lightest, smallest pack
, so I still have lots of roomin there and I get to pack extra
snacks.
So the basic things that go inthere.
We're talking about a three day, two night trip.
For example, if I'm expectingrain, I have a poncho.
Actually, this is I don't knowif you use video or not, but my
(15:43):
wife got me a poncho slash tarpfor Christmas.
Uh huh, it's a cute.
So if it rains, I've got aponcho.
When it's time to set up camp,I've got a tarp and it's like
the size of a Coca-Cola can 12ounce Coca-Cola can yeah, I can
see it, and it weighs eightounces, so half a pound.
It replaced a tarp that weighedtwo pounds or a pound and a
(16:04):
half, so that's like rain gear.
I've got that.
Well, if it's cold, I mean,this becomes like a windshield
for me as well.
Change of clothes I don't reallybring a full set of clothes
with me.
On a three day trip, even afour or five day trip, I've
never taken a full change ofclothes, maybe an extra pair of
underwear and an extra pair ofsocks, and I find a way to wash
(16:27):
those in camp and then they'reair dried by the morning.
So I've got clean clothes.
It's just not a fresh set ofclothes for every single day.
So that's one way to shedweight is I don't bring as much
clothes Now in the car.
Brand new set of clothes.
I need options.
Yes, I am not going to stink upthe car because my wife will
(16:48):
make fun of me when I get home.
There is a whole new set ofstuff in the car when I'm done
with the trip, so in thebackpack itself.
So some socks, you know.
One extra pair, really extrapair of underwear.
My sleeping bag it's a downsleeping bag rated to 40 degrees
and I got it at Walmart forlike 20 bucks.
I think it's now like 30 bucks,but yeah, that's my only
(17:11):
sleeping bag and I've taken thatthing down consistently to
about 20 degrees and been justfine.
Oh, wow, okay.
And it all comes with layering.
So you know I have like clothingin the wintertime that I'll
wear.
And then I have a poncho liner.
That adds a little bit moreweight.
The poncho liner is rated tolike it's a blanket.
It's rated to 50 degrees.
(17:32):
Combine it with the sleepingbag.
I can now take that system downto about 30 degrees and then,
wearing like long johns to sleepin, I can now take my whole
system down to about 20 degreesand then underneath me in the
hammock, it's not just asleeping pad that's rated to 50
degrees, Underneath that is justa $1 solar screen that you get
(17:57):
at like a dollar store for, likeyour windshield, and underneath
my sleeping pad and I couldtake that.
That whole thing keeps metoasty in 20 degree weather.
Wow, so you learn how to layerthings and lower our eyes.
Is that a word?
It is now.
Speaker 2 (18:17):
Yep, it is now.
I'm writing it down, yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:20):
Everything works together in some way, shape or
form, even like empty yourbackpack and use that as like a
foot cover at night, so you havethat extra foot insulation, so
you don't get frostbite.
So, going back to thesummertime though, so yeah, you
already got the underwear, thesocks, I'll have a.
I have an ultralight stovecalled a BRS 3000.
(18:41):
Can we take a number?
It's on Amazon, it's like $15.
It's made of titanium, verylightweight, not the most
efficient stove ever, but it islight and it just screws on with
one of those canisters you buyfrom any store.
And my spoon is a bamboo longhandle spoon so I can cook and
(19:05):
not scrape up my pots or pans.
And, depending on how I feel, Iprobably spend more time
thinking about what cook kit I'mtaking with me.
I've got an aluminum pot where,if I'm just boiling water and
pouring that into my food torehydrate, I've got a one quart
aluminum pot that weighs likehalf a pound.
But if I want fresh eggs likefarm fresh eggs with bacon bits
(19:29):
and cheddar cheese and like goto town on breakfast, I take a
frying pan I bought at Daiso, soit's not even like an
ultralight piece of kit.
It is a six inch or eight inchfrying pan I found at Daiso for
like $5.
It weighs under a pound andthen I just I look at that
frying pan.
I'm like, okay, what do I shedTo?
Speaker 2 (19:50):
take that.
Speaker 1 (19:51):
To justify the frying pan, yeah, and I'm like well,
the extra pair of socks stay,something stupid like that.
So there's that, my hammock, abug net, the straps for the
hammock and then I already shownyou the tarp.
So I've got the basics forshelter, for food prep, and then
the basic 10.
(20:11):
I've got a small compass, it'slike a wristwatch type of, like
small toy compass.
And then what else?
Fire starter, so lighter, andthen for backup, matches or a
ferro rod, depending on how Ifeel and where I am on the
weight, like if I'm creepingabout 10 pounds, it's matches,
(20:32):
not the ferro rod, the littleiron like flint steel type of
things.
Speaker 2 (20:36):
And now being under 10 pounds?
Does that count your food aswell, or no, just your pack?
Speaker 1 (20:43):
Well, just the pack, the equipment with food, water
and fuel.
My total pack is around 15pounds in the summer and spring.
In the winter I get up to about18 pounds.
Speaker 2 (20:56):
Okay, that makes sense.
Speaker 1 (20:59):
Yeah, total weight and a lot of it has to do with
like knowing where the watersources are, too like water.
Like you start thinking aboutthese things.
Like you know how heavy is thefood.
You know if your food ispackaged in tin cans, like you
got those are heavy, right, andyou got to take the cans out
with you.
Like it's a very bad form tojust leave the cans where you
(21:21):
are and I always joke about it.
Kind of irks me when peopleleave like plastic bottles on
the trail.
It's like seriously, was itheavier empty than it was when
you carried it?
Speaker 2 (21:30):
in Exactly.
Speaker 1 (21:31):
Yeah, yeah, it's lighter.
You should have less excuse tonot carry that thing in.
But for me, like water, youknow it's two pounds per liter
or quart and so if you carry agallon of water with you, that's
eight pounds that you have withyou.
And one of the things I gotused to carrying is this, like
Sawyer squeeze.
It's in a plastic bag right nowbecause I'm trying to keep it
(21:53):
from drying out because it turnsout they can dry out.
Well, that's a hard way, if yougo too long between trips they
can dry out.
But I have a Sawyer squeeze.
It's a water filter that fits ontop of.
I've got like a one liter, likecollapsible canteen, kind of
like a water bag, and it justscrews on top of there and then
I use that to squeeze the waterinto my smart water bottle.
(22:16):
So, like the bottles that youcan get at the store, the one
smart bottles.
So a lot of people you'll seethem with like now gene bottles,
like it's like thick, heavyplastic because they're thinking
about it being rugged, butultralight backpackers like to
take as light as possible, so tothem you'll see the now gene
and it's like that is way tooheavy, whereas a smart water
bottle not only is light as afeather, but the threads on that
(22:40):
bottle fit a water filterperfectly.
These are a catadine beef freetype of thing, and so it's like
already the thinking, if I needto like.
If I burst that little bag Iused for filtering, I could just
put dirty water in the smartbottle, screw my filter on there
and drink straight from that.
Speaker 2 (23:00):
Oh, and it filters it , filters it, wow Okay.
Speaker 1 (23:04):
Yeah.
So you got like a redundancywithout actually packing extra
stuff.
It's like okay, and so ifthere's a lot of water sources,
I carry just one liter with meat all times.
In Texas I wound up carryingtwo liters.
And once in a while if I'm so,knowing how much water I need to
take in an hour or every threeto four miles, you know, till
(23:25):
the next water source it's like.
So if there's like a watersource every three to four miles
, I'll carry one liter.
If it's going to be about six,seven or eight miles, I'll carry
two.
If it's a longer stretch thanthat, I'll camel up.
I'll actually have a fullgallon on me somewhere.
Oh wow, I'm drinking that asfast as I can.
Speaker 2 (23:43):
It's like, especially in Texas too.
Speaker 1 (23:45):
That's how I get so hot.
A lot of us out here in Texasdon't backpack from, I'd say,
may until October.
Speaker 2 (23:53):
That's a good reason.
Speaker 1 (23:56):
If they do, they go out of state.
They go to, like Oklahoma,colorado, utah, wherever there's
mountains and weather, they'llgo there.
So yeah it's very light.
A lot of stuff like the pack issmaller.
A lot of my equipment is eithercut down to the bare minimum or
the types of equipment I carryis the bare minimum.
Remember, on one trip I took itwas one of my earlier ones and
(24:22):
I had this little.
I don't have it in here with me, but it's a small little pocket
knife that it's a Swiss Armyknife.
It's got a small like inch anda half blade, maybe a one inch
blade on it.
It's got a file in case I wantto work on my nails, I guess,
and scissors and some tweezers.
It's very lightweight comparedto my other knife it's like a
three inch blade Gerber knifeand so I switched off for the
(24:44):
smaller one because for the mostpart I don't need a big Rambo
knife.
I don't need a survival knife.
I'm not going to go off thetrail and bushcraft I could have
a hand too, but I don't have to.
That's just not the reason I'mgoing out there.
But I remember running intosomebody that he had this like
staff, like a walking stick.
(25:04):
He looked like Gandalf butdifferent, and so he saw me
getting my stuff ready to go onthe trail and he walked up to
see if I wanted to hike out withhim.
But we were going differentpaths after all.
But I couldn't help but noticehe had this like staff, that was
his walking stick.
At the top of the walking stickhe had a big like hunting knife
strapped to the top with thesheath on it.
(25:27):
But I asked him what that wasfor and he said you know, in
case you run into wild hogs outhere, you want to be able to
defend yourself.
And I was like gosh, I did myresearch and there are no
armadillos and you know, but youdon't have to worry about them.
I didn't tell this guy thatlike he was convinced we're
going to run into hogs out here.
But I already knew from myresearch we weren't going to run
(25:49):
into that.
But you know, everybody hikestheir own hike.
But I also noticed he not onlyhad this basically a spear on
his shoulder strap of hisbackpack, he had like a Marine
Corps K bar knife ready to go onhis hip.
He had another survival knifeready to go.
Like the guy had like fourknives on him just in case.
(26:09):
And that was like one of thethings that just blew my mind
was like this guy carried threeknives too many because of the
phrase just in case.
And you see a lot of peoplepack themselves down with just
in cases.
You know, I'm going to bring aponcho and a rain suit just in
case.
I'm going to bring this extrafood or this extra water just in
(26:30):
case.
I'm going to bring an extra setof clothes all together just in
case.
And all these add up to a heavypack.
And something I heard abackpacker a neutral light
backpacker say was that we tendto pack our fears.
Speaker 2 (26:46):
I was absolutely going to say that.
I was like you, always want tobe prepared and and you have the
time you don't know what you'repreparing yourself for.
Sometimes, what what you'repreparing yourself for is far
worse than what reality is goingto happen.
Speaker 1 (27:05):
Exactly.
Yeah, you know we're expectingto run into, like this guy, a
pack of hogs out in the middleof nowhere and I've actually run
into a pack of hogs before.
But I kept my distance, youknow, I just kept my head on a
swivel and I saw them.
They're like 100 yards away.
Speaker 2 (27:18):
Yeah, I'd be up the first tree.
Speaker 1 (27:22):
Well, I stood there just wondering what do you do
when you're faced with a pack ofwild hogs?
I didn't know, like I was likeI researched bobcats they run
away from you.
I researched deer they run awayfrom you.
I researched birds unlessyou're dead, they're not going
to pick on you.
I was like wild hogs.
I should have researched wildhogs.
Okay, when I get home, if Imake it out of this, they're 100
(27:44):
yards away.
They were never coming towardsme, but I looked it up later on.
It's like they're almost blindas a bat.
Like they, they're sticking totheir, their what's right in
front of them.
They're looking for truffles,they're looking for grubs.
As long as you don't spook them.
When you're right up on them,you give them their space,
they're going to move on.
I was like all right, cool,that's good to know.
Speaker 2 (28:04):
For next time?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, you know.
I wanted to ask you.
In one you mentioned that yourfamily doesn't go with you.
Do you always backpack alone?
Speaker 1 (28:17):
Most of the time, yes , because my family doesn't like
to go out there.
Now a lot of my friends tell methey want to go out there and
be manly men and let's go.
And I'm sorry, guys, I'm goingto throw you under the bus here.
Every time we've planned a trip, it evolves like this it starts
off with one guy saying we needto reconnect with God and just
(28:39):
be manly men and get out innature and commune with each
other.
Commune with what God hascreated, and that's that's.
And you'll just talk about howhis parents were Marines and he,
you know, he leaves out thepart where he wasn't.
But he's like he gets everybodyriled up and like, great, well,
I'm available this weekend,this one and this one.
And somebody else says, well,I'm available for that one.
(29:01):
And the other guy says, yep, metoo, and so we get a date
longer.
Boom, well, that first guy goesradio silent for the next two
months.
He just put his money where hismouth is, and so that's him.
He disappears off the map.
He's not involved in planningat all.
Now the other guys who commit.
One of them starts asking hey,so is it like a place where we
(29:23):
could drive a Jeep up to,because I have the like this new
setup with my Jeep and I'd loveto be able to like just unroll
that.
He's talking more overlanding,and the other guy that's
committed, he's like is theregoing to be running water out
there?
It's called a river.
Yeah, I mean like facilities, Ineed facilities, and it's like.
And then the other guy is like,yeah, you know, it'd be really
(29:45):
great if we could like plug in aplasma TV and watch some movies
out there about camping.
And I'm like, so what itevolves to is, you know, it's
it's going to be glamping in theend.
And so I go on occasion withthem just to appease them and
make them feel like they'rethey're getting out there.
But if I want to get out there,I just need to go.
And so, like last minute, it'slike you know what I've got a
(30:08):
three or four day weekend.
I didn't expect my family's allgot plans for themselves.
I can hit this trail, get therein four hours, and this is my
out and back.
Or I can do a loop and it'slike planned right away and
there's no time to get otherpeople on board.
But I do have a small group offriends there in a Facebook
group called Backpacking andHiking Texas and we meet up at a
(30:30):
place once every year or two atLos Maple State Natural Area
and there's like eight to 12 ofus at a given moment and we kind
of just see what everybody'sgot and it's like the one time
we get together.
Speaker 2 (30:39):
Nice, Nice, I was thinking you know safety wise.
Now I know you're formermilitary, but even just safety
wise to be out.
And again I'm looking at itthrough my lens of yeah, there's
no way in hell you'll get meout in the woods alone by myself
, with the potential of wildhogs.
(31:02):
But from a from a safetyperspective.
Have you ever, you know,started getting somebody to go
with, just in case?
Here we go again.
Speaker 1 (31:16):
I, I asked folks and a lot of times they're not
available.
The one time where I did becomelike a liability to folks was a
time when I went with a group,but then again it was East Texas
during the summertime, likeJuly and very hot, so it was
like 98 degrees, but with thehumidity it felt like 100
(31:37):
something and I was woefullyunderprepared for that.
So it was with a group of fourother hikers and they almost had
to carry me out of therebecause I was pushing myself,
because I was around people.
It was like a false sense ofsecurity, with all this knowing
what my body is capable of andbeing aware of like I've got to
(31:58):
make myself rest every hourgetting some shade, sit down,
drink water, drink a certainamount of water, eat some salty
snacks, eat some beef jerky andjust rest for 10 minutes.
Finding myself to be aware oftime, distance and making myself
rest because the military guyand me will just push on until I
(32:19):
hit the destination.
You can die later, just getthere.
And it's like no, you got totake breaks, you got to rest,
it's okay to rest.
So then my stepdad had taughtme was because he and I did a
trip a few years ago and he wasstopping like every gosh, I'd
say 300 to 400 yards, mostly forme to catch up to him, because
(32:41):
we have longer.
We're going up a mountain andhe's resting just a few seconds,
just enough for me to catch mybreath, and then we move on
because he knows I'm alsoacclimating to this mountain and
so just taking the time he'slike the trail's going to be
there.
We've got everything we need,ideally.
Yes, we'd like to get to thisdestination, but you got to get
(33:02):
to the destination healthy andalive.
There's some safety things thatI put into place.
When I go out alone, I get amap, I print off a map of where
I'm going and I mark off ofthere for my wife.
This is where I'm going to park, this is where I plan to be,
this is my route, no matter what.
This is my route.
(33:22):
So I'm going to do this loop,I'm going to go out and back,
whatever it is.
So this is my route and I'llhighlight that on the map.
This is where I plan to camp onday one.
On night number two, we'll behere and then I should be back
to the car by this time.
You should hear from me by noonof this day, driving back
already Worst case scenariothree or four o'clock because I
(33:46):
decided to lull a gag on thelast day.
Whatever it, is.
You should hear from me by then.
There's not going to be signalout there, so there's no way for
me to get in touch with you.
So if I'm not back by Monday,you know exactly where to send
people and she knows I'm good atland navigation.
Because of that I was reallygood at land navigation, like I
(34:06):
could tell you what mountain I'mon.
If you give me a good map andyou give me some good as in this
to play with, where somelandmarks to look at, I can tell
you by triangulation this iswhere I am and that's if I need
it.
I mean, my phone has a GPS onit, so it's like this is exactly
where I am.
I know where I am.
So, yeah, I stay on trail.
I don't go off the beaten path.
(34:28):
I stayed on my route andthere's plenty to see on the
route and I try to stick to mytimetable just so I could be
back to when I need to be back,being aware of water sources.
So that's the other thing, likefrom running low on water, I
don't push it.
Food again, making myself eat,rest, resting my feet, checking
(34:52):
my feet, making sure my feetstay dry.
So that's another beautifulthing about ultralight
backpacking you got less weighton you and so therefore, your
shoes don't have to be theseheavy weight boots.
You see a lot of people withbig hiking boots and then they
laugh at me when I show up withlike these knit running shoes,
like these very lightweightrunning shoes and what are those
(35:14):
?
I'm like these are my hikingshoes.
And I'm like are you insane?
We're going over rocks.
I'm like, yeah, my backpackweighs 15 pounds, how about you?
And they're like it's like 40.
Like, well you boots?
I don't.
I'm much more nimble.
My feet don't collect waterbecause they're mesh tops, so
it's just in my feet are always.
(35:35):
And so I've never had a blisterhiking ultralight, whereas I got
blisters all the time hiking inboots and the heavy pack.
So with this ultralight pack,with the lightweight shoes, I'm
moving faster, I'm seeing morestuff.
Speaker 2 (35:48):
I would imagine you could.
If you, if, if you were withother folks, you could actually
go deeper into your hike ordeeper off the beaten path,
because your pack is so muchlighter and you and you have
everything you need, and I wouldexpect that maybe that would
lead to some really uniqueexperiences that most hikers
(36:11):
don't get to have, because it'syou know too dangerous.
With 40, 50 pounds on theirback, what?
What have been some of the thewow moments from your light or
your ultralight backpackingadventures?
Speaker 1 (36:27):
Man, some of my favorite ones.
The most recent trip, secondthe most recent trip, I went to
Big Bend National Park and acowboy camp.
So I didn't even have hammock,not allowed to hang anything up
anyway, and I just had groundcloth, sleeping bag, stars, and
it was.
It was nighttime, I was kind ofwinding down.
I had a little bit of signal soI was texting him like, hey,
(36:49):
what you know here, check thispicture out.
I took this earlier today on aday hike and I heard some
rustling about 15, 20 feet awayfrom me.
I look over my shoulder andit's a coyote, oh God, and it's
sniffing around because my, mybuddy, who did go out there with
me, he was like, what do we dowith, like, the water from our
dishes?
I'm like, well, you justdisperse it.
(37:10):
Uh, some backpacks are like, no, you drink it.
I'm like, no, that's gross, I'mnot doing that.
So I showed him how youdisperse it and you just spray
it like, so it has almost noscent.
He dispersed it all into onebush, and this coyote smelled it
.
And so he sniffed around thatbush and I'm like, oh boy,
there's a coyote right there,which is cool.
If I stay quiet, he's not goingto notice me, but then he
(37:34):
noticed me and he came up like apuppy dog and I'm like oh no,
no, no, no.
Speaker 2 (37:38):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (37:39):
And I'm like I'm trying to scare it away.
But this thing was, this coyotewas so comfortable with me that
it like cowered and likecreeping up to me for a snack.
I'm like, no, no, no, I hadnothing go get away.
And so it started to go away andI don't know why, but I wanted
to make some more noises tospook it, but instead I made I
don't know why, but I went, Icalled him back to me and he got
(38:03):
happy.
He's like, oh yeah.
And he's like, oh my gosh, hethinks I have food.
I don't have food on me and so,finally this is why I don't
have a picture of him I'm trying, like, while I'm keeping my eye
on the coyote, I'm trying tofind my trekking pole so I have
something in case he attacks.
And I'm trying, like, withoutlooking at my phone, to activate
the light so I can shine it atthe coyote and scare it.
(38:25):
And I'm trying to do all thisat the same time and he's just
kind of getting closer.
He's looking for a.
Finally, I get the light on andI, I stand up, like another
Gandalf reference.
I stand up, I put my arms outwide and I say I'm bigger than
you, it's enough running andleft.
(38:46):
But as soon as that was done, Itexted my family.
I'm like you won't believe whatjust happened.
This was so cool.
And they're like dad.
This is why we don't go.
We would all be in the carleaving or at least on the trail
running, and you're like thiswas so cool.
I'm like I knew what I wasinvolved with, like I had enough
awareness of, like okay, thethe Coyote came up to me because
(39:08):
somebody had fed it yeah, open,fed on a regular basis so it
associated me with dinner, notas I was dinner, but I had
dinner to give him.
And so I was aware of that andI had to kind of remind it.
No, no, no, no, you got to goand it's that campsite was just
on its circuit, you know,whatever two or three day route
(39:29):
it does.
Huh, that was part of out.
Speaker 2 (39:31):
So that was one of them alone.
Speaker 1 (39:34):
He was by himself.
Yeah, no pack, huh, no pack.
Now I heard them later on inthe night, like three or four in
the morning.
I'm like, okay, well, they'refar away, but that one was alone
.
That I know of.
But Paternalis Falls State Parkin Texas, and I was able to set
my hammock up at the ledge of acliff and it was like a 40 or
(39:58):
50 foot drop, but I set it up sothat I, when I woke up, I could
look through the trees and seethe river going by.
Pretty, it was so nice and thisis like November, so there were
no leaves and and sure enough,in the morning I heard birds
chirping.
I look out of my hammock I'mstill resting quite comfortably
(40:19):
in my hammock and I just look tomy left and there's the river,
and I could hear the riverrunning over the rocks.
Ah, this is it, this is thelife, and it was so cool to wake
up like that.
And so that's another one.
And then the trip I took with mystepdad probably the most
adventurous, I would say.
(40:39):
That was a Wintertime, justafter Christmas.
We, we had a campfire going,and then that night was also
very cold, it was like 15degrees.
This is when I learned how tolayer properly, because I didn't
do it properly that day.
I had my 40 degree Sleeping bag.
(41:00):
I had all my clothes on, but myunderside insulation was not
there, so it was a cold night.
I remember waking up in themiddle of the night.
We were not in eyesight of eachother.
Okay yeah, the trees I neededfor my hammock were quite a
distance from him, but Iremember hearing wrestling In,
cracking of leaves and so on andI thought it was my stepdad in
(41:21):
the middle of the night going tothe bathroom.
That's why I'm up, that it'scold, so I do my business.
I get back in my hammock and Istill hear that rustling around.
I'm like wow, what is hedigging?
Speaker 2 (41:36):
God.
Speaker 1 (41:37):
It's cold, I'd wait till morning and start a fire.
And yeah, it's cold, it's.
So when morning came, he's,he's up.
He's already drinking a cup ofcoffee.
He's got his breakfast going.
I get my breakfast go.
And he asked how I slept.
I said really well.
And he asked if I got up at all.
It's like yeah, a couple oftimes to go to the bathroom and
and how about you?
(41:57):
And he goes now, once I'm in mytent, I'm out.
The whole night I was like huh.
Speaker 2 (42:03):
What, what did you hear?
Did you go looking forfootprints?
Speaker 1 (42:08):
I Well, our food bag was in that area, and he just
says it matter of factly,because he's from North Carolina
.
He's, he looks like SylvesterStallone, but with a thick
country accent.
Like, yeah, I'm out all night,you just once.
I'm in that tent, I'm sleeping.
I slept good, it wasn't, it wasnice, I was nice and cozy.
He's like why I was like well, Iheard something wrestling
(42:30):
around where your tent area wasand I thought it was you going
to the bathroom.
He goes nope, I was out.
You know, I could have been,though, could have been a bear.
Think, maybe, maybe that thatbear we heard had some cubs, and
Where'd you hear the rustling?
And I pointed and he goes oh,isn't our food over there?
I'm like yeah, it is.
He goes, you know what?
I think it was after our food.
(42:51):
He's just like kind of coolabout it.
I'm saying I'm thinking I'msorry what?
There was a bear in ourcampsite and I was up and out of
my hammock when it was in ourcampsite.
Like we go.
He goes, yeah, I figured thepark rangers gonna be up here
anyway, because we had acampfire.
Okay, let's go.
And so when I saw you know thearea where I heard the wrestling
(43:15):
.
There were scratch marks in thetrees.
That was not so it had beenthere and it had found our food.
It was scratching the tree totry to get the food.
Scratching the tree justbecause they scratch trees and
on the whole hike out.
There are multiple trees wherewe saw bear sign, like scratches
in the trees that weren't therethe day before.
He goes.
(43:36):
Wow, you know, I think the bearcame up this way.
Yeah, thank you.
So the bear is ahead of us, notbehind us.
He goes.
Hey, ma be, you think it'd beat the car he goes.
Well, I hope not, because wegotta go.
It was no, or it nowhere nearus.
(43:57):
There was nothing in theparking lot when we got back to
the car.
Speaker 2 (44:00):
What advice do you have for somebody that wants to
transition into Ultralightbackpacking?
I mean it's lighter.
So you know Common sense, those.
To me it's lighter.
I ain't getting any younger.
It's gonna be easier for me toTo maintain.
You know what I want to do whenI'm out on a trail, and when I
(44:23):
say I I mean figuratively, don'tmean literally, and you know
that it's easier on your body.
You know the, the simplicity ofit.
I think is Is something thatwould be really attractive.
But if somebody is really Triedand true regular backpacker,
(44:46):
what advice would you have ifthey were interested in
transitioning?
Speaker 1 (44:50):
Yeah, the first thing that I got was one of those
kitchen scales the real smallones that you can wear your food
yeah.
Yeah.
So I have one of those.
It's like right outside thispodcast studio, like in my home
office, because I'm Jerry, oncein a while I just want to weigh
a carabiner, my stuff.
(45:12):
So get one of those and get afree account on a website called
lighter packcom, okay, and youcan inventory all your gear and
kind of mix and match everythingso that you know what you're
packing or what you're gonnaweigh before you even put it all
together.
From there I look at the bigthree.
The big three are the pack, theback or the other backpack, the
(45:37):
sleeping bag and your shelter.
So, whether that's a tarp or atent, and if you can reduce the
weight on those three thingsalone, you're you're gonna see
the biggest weight savings.
Now it could get more expensive.
Now my route I went to Walmart28 liter pack.
It forces me to bring lessBecause I also have a pack
(46:00):
that's 40 liters and I alwaysoverpack and like I'm never
ultralight when I take that,it's like I could take the stool
, I could take a second stoveand bacon at the same time.
It's like I started thinkingabout those extras and it
started creeping in.
So, yeah, a cheap backpackthat's got enough size to go
spring or summer.
(46:21):
Look at your, your sleeping bag.
If it's a polyester type offill, you can get a good down
one off of Walmart for like $30.
I think.
It's ready down 40 degrees.
But again, summertime you,unless you live up in the
mountain top, you don't needanything below 40 degrees.
It's spring and summer and soyou don't need a 10 degree
(46:44):
sleeping bag in the summertime.
It's you're just gonna kick itoff anyway.
And then tents.
You know, for some folks thatmight be the last thing they
want to get rid of.
For me it was one of the firstthings I ditched, I ditched, I
ditched the tent all together togo hammock camping.
So I just needed a hammock anda tarp and I started looking at
that system.
But those are the big threebackpack, shelter and sleeping
(47:08):
okay and Bring that down to whatyou realistically need For the
season you're going camping andand be.
You know like you don't need athree season tent.
If you're going out during thesummertime, you might just need
to tarp in a bug net, and so youknow, just looking at, what do
I really need for this?
Speaker 2 (47:25):
So last, question what's your next big adventure,
what's your next big challenge?
Speaker 1 (47:33):
There's a friend of mine who does sections of the
Appalachian Trail.
He's one of the guys who is nota backpacker, so he's been
telling me for years that whathe would love to do is, since I
want a section hike and he justwants to hike during the day, he
could drop me off at like pointA.
He'll drive to point B, hikeback until he meets up with me.
(47:56):
We hike the rest of the way topoint B, camp in the woods
somewhere, so I'm always on thetrail doing my thing where it's
popping.
Wherever the trip is for thatweek or two weeks, he's my ride
to the airport, so he's pickingme up because he'll drive out
there.
We'll leapfrog sections likethat and he'll take me to where
(48:17):
I need to go to get home.
So I threw it at him like, hey,we should plan that.
So I don't know when, but I'dsay early 2024,.
I'll start checking off thebucket list that I've hiked the
Appalachian Trail.
I'm not through hike the thing,but I think hitting in sections
and getting all of it that waywill still make me happy.
(48:41):
But between now and 2024, thereare a couple of spots in
Oklahoma that I haven't been toyet.
Broken bow, that area is verybeautiful, that's nice.
There's a loop there that Ithink I want to break in and use
as a break in kind of dust, thecobwebs off, kind of thing.
And then Eagle Rock Loop inArkansas is a 28, I think, or
(49:04):
almost 30 mile loop.
It's got river crossings, verybeautiful alams, lots of pine
trees, bears, it's going to befun.
So I want to do more of that.
And yeah, just see, becauseI've done a lot of Texas.
Texas is flat, it's hot, it'skind of the same old thing.
(49:26):
I want to get up in Oklahomaand hit some of those trails.
Oh, that's awesome, awesome.
Speaker 2 (49:33):
Jerry, I can't thank you enough for your time.
I loved having thisconversation with you.
Where can folks find you online?
Speaker 1 (49:45):
Yeah, so my podcast is called Beyond the Rut and
it's a show about sharingstories and practical tools that
help you create the life thatyou feel is worth living in your
faith, your family and career.
And you can find that atbeyondtherutcom and that's got
links to the podcast episodes,blog posts.
I don't think I have my book onthere.
(50:07):
So if you want the book, whichis like the 124 page version of
the podcast it's called Beyondthe Rut Create a Life Worth
Living in your Faith, family andCareer and that's on Amazon you
can go to beyondtherutcom.
It'll take you right there.
And if you want to listen to itand you don't want to pay for
it or you don't have the moneyfor it, I still want you to get
the content.
You can get the audiobook forfree beyond therutcom and you
(50:33):
just felt the form and I'llemail you access to the
audiobook.
Speaker 2 (50:37):
Awesome, jerry.
I'll have all those links inyour show notes.
And again, thank you so much.
I've learned a lot I.
There's always a big joke.
I have a very good friend whois an avid hiker and the joke is
, you'll never get me out there.
But if I could pack lightly andguarantee no bears or snakes,
(51:04):
that's the big one.
I mean talk about this.
Speaker 1 (51:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (51:09):
I may consider joining her for a little section
of her section of theAppalachian Trail when she gets
up to Massachusetts.
Speaker 1 (51:16):
So, jerry, If she doesn't eat day training, just
do a day hike with her.
Speaker 2 (51:21):
Yeah, I told her it had to be flat.
I have requirements.
Speaker 1 (51:27):
Don't bring her in my room, yeah.
Speaker 2 (51:29):
Yeah, she said there's a part out on Western
Mass that's very flat, likeCharlton Mass area, so who knows
?
But I will definitely stay intouch with you and again, cannot
thank you enough for all yourtime tonight.
Speaker 1 (51:44):
Oh, my pleasure.
Thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (51:53):
Jerry is such a super down to earth guy and I really
had fun chatting with him.
I learned a lot aboutultralight backpacking and some
of the reasons he's sopassionate about it, From the
cathartic heavy duty hike he didon Memorial Day to the
commuting with nature he's ableto do on his solo trips, and
(52:15):
even the quality time he spendswith his friends glamping or
dodging bears with his stepdad.
And of course, we can't forgetthe wild boars.
This man will never run out ofstories.
Although I'm not chomping atthe bit to go hiking, what
really resonated with me abouthis passion was what a great
(52:39):
metaphor for traveling throughlife ultralight backpacking is.
Don't pack your fears.
Take what you really need,because what you don't need just
weighs you down, slows you downand keeps you from being in the
moment.
And traveling lightly helps yougo further, explore more,
(53:01):
experience more and enjoy more,and for those reasons I'm
becoming a fan of the ultralightbackpacking mindset.
If you're interested in learningmore about Jerry, his podcast
Beyond the Rut or any of theresources he talked about, jump
down to the show notes for allthe links and if you're enjoying
(53:26):
the content, it would help megrow the podcast if you could do
two quick things Written reviewthe podcast, especially if
you're a Spotify or Applepodcast listener.
A five-star written reviewhelps get the podcast in front
of others who might enjoy thecontent as well.
(53:47):
And the second thing share thepodcast with a friend or your
Facebook network or yourLinkedIn network.
Short shows, word of mouth.
Podcast recommendations are thenumber one way podcast
listeners find new content tolisten to.
(54:09):
I'd appreciate it if you couldhelp the podcast out in those
two ways, and I would also loveto connect with you on social
media so you can connect with meon the Assorted Conversations
podcast Facebook page In ourFacebook community, where you
can interact with otherlisteners as well as our guests.
(54:29):
Follow the podcast on Twitterand Instagram, or you can simply
just drop me an email ataconvosepod at gmailcom.
All the links are in the shownotes.
So until next time, be bold, beblind to your challenges and
(54:52):
follow your passions.
Thanks for listening and I'llsee you in two weeks.
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