December 11, 2023 • 50 mins
Get ready to redefine your marketing game with our remarkable guest, Jen McFarland. This episode takes you on a journey through the realm of marketing, blending it with the power of empathy and authenticity. Jen, championing the cause of entrepreneurs worldwide, shares her insightful approach and how consistent messaging can transform your relationship with customers, leading to a sales boom.
Busting the myth that a website alone can magically attract customers, we stress the crucial role of proactive promotion and distribution. Jen shares her robust framework for marketing, highlighting how understanding your audience is the key before venturing into technologies like sales funnels. We tackle the challenge of building resilience amidst criticism, an inevitable part of online content creation.
Towards the end, we delve into the significance of taking action and constantly promoting your business. Jen shares her wisdom on crafting a compelling Google business profile and how honesty can shape your marketing strategy. The episode concludes, exploring the profound intersection of empathy and business strategy. You'll walk away with an enriched perspective on marketing, so plug in your headphones and soak up all the insights!
Eager to harness the power of Empathic Marketing to propel your business growth? Get your hands on my #1 Amazon Best Selling book, 'Empathic Marketing,' or book a '30-Minute Gap Analysis' session directly from my website: www.becausebusinessispersonal.com.
Discover a wealth of knowledge in our podcast archives at www.becausebusinessispersonal.com.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey, welcome to the Because Business is Personal
podcast, the podcast whereempathy meets marketing strategy
.
I'm your host, mike Caldwell,but I'm also known as the
marketing medic.
Now, the reason for that isbecause, before becoming a
marketing strategist, I actuallyworked as a paramedic for 12
years, and it was during thattime that I realized how
(00:20):
important it was to trulyunderstand the problems your
patient was facing before youstarted providing treatment.
And it's this sameunderstanding, the same empathy,
is just as crucial when itcomes to understanding our
prospects and making sales, andthat's why, in each episode,
we'll dissect the art ofempathic marketing, exploring
(00:42):
how top professionals infuseempathy into their strategies to
build stronger relationships,boost their sales and make a
lasting impact.
So buckle up and prepare toturn up the dial on your
marketing effectiveness.
Hey, everyone, welcome back toanother episode of Because
Business is Personal.
Today we've got with us thesuper exciting and dynamic Jen
(01:06):
McFarland.
She's a passionate andcompassionate champion for
entrepreneurs, founders andbusiness owners.
She built her business toencourage people with great
ideas to reach their fullpotential, particularly women,
non-binary folks and people ofcolor.
A natural teacher and giftedspeaker, jen's committed to
providing you with fun stories,stories and great value.
(01:28):
So welcome Jen.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
Hey, thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (01:36):
So I didn't come prepared.
Did you come prepared with adad joke?
Speaker 2 (01:40):
Oh, with a dad joke, I mean, there's just so many, I
don't.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
So tell me.
Speaker 2 (01:45):
Do you have anything to share?
You didn't have one.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
No, that's how we usually start, but I forgot this
time.
Speaker 2 (01:52):
You know it was coming and you didn't.
Speaker 1 (01:53):
No.
Speaker 2 (01:54):
I didn't have one because my other bio talks about
dad jokes and how much I lovedad jokes, so Okay, well, we'll
mull on it and we'll come back.
Speaker 1 (02:01):
We'll come up with something.
Speaker 2 (02:02):
Don't worry about it.
Speaker 1 (02:03):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
It's all good All right so, Jen.
Speaker 1 (02:07):
so let's give us a little bit of background to who
you are and who you help.
Speaker 2 (02:12):
Yeah, so my company is called William and Conker
Business.
People ask if I help men andI'm like sure you just have to
be cool with the business name.
You know, kind of believe thatwe're all in it together.
We're all trying to build athing.
I started off in marketing wayback when because I could
identify a scanner.
I'm not even kidding.
I was like in an interview andI had done all this design work
(02:32):
and stuff and the guy's likewhat's that?
And I'm like a scanner, andhe's like you're hired, and I
was like really Okay, and sothen I worked for a long time as
an in-house designer.
I did a lot of graphics.
I designed educational posters,video covers, you name it.
Then I went into the PeaceCorps for a couple of years and
I lived in Kazakhstan.
My husband and I went there andwe lived and worked and taught
(02:55):
in Kazakhstan for two years.
I came back, I got a master'sdegree in leadership and
management, worked as anexecutive at the city of
Portland, helped with theirwebsite and boosted traffic at
my bureau by like 250%.
I got kind of bored withhelping nameless, faceless
hordes and crowds of people withthese huge projects and started
(03:16):
my own consultancy.
And here we are.
Okay, well, cool yeah.
Speaker 1 (03:22):
It's interesting because I didn't know about your
master's degree, because I havea master's degree it's called a
master of science andmanagement from Regis University
, but it was all.
It was mostly leadership stuff.
Yeah, and it's funny becauseI'm so literal.
I'm like how is this a sciencedegree?
It seems pretty, seems likeleadership really a science, I
(03:43):
don't know it sure as a sciencedegree or an arts degree.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
I have an MPA, so it's a master of public
administration.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (03:51):
So it was.
It's kind of like an MBA forgovernment.
Speaker 1 (03:55):
Okay, gotcha.
Speaker 2 (03:56):
Yeah, I really thought I was going to work in
government forever.
I did for about 10 years andthen I was like, yeah, I need to
do something else.
So Okay.
Speaker 1 (04:05):
So one question I have is, since you're a
marketing expert, is how do youdefine marketing?
Because, especially so, it'sfunny you bring up the
government because my buddy Joe,he wants me to do consulting
work for the government.
He's a consultant in thegovernment.
He's like dude.
You're like well, it's $1,000 aday per day, it's just easy
money.
And I'm like but I'm aparamedic and I'm a marketing
(04:29):
guy Like I don't know how Icould serve.
He's like don't worry, it'sjust a club and you just need to
know somebody in the club toget you in.
And I'm in the club.
So anyway, it was funny becausewhen I was creating my CV for
the public sector, he justtrashed.
He's like oh my God, you justsay like marketing and every one
of your bio things.
I'm like well, that's becausethat's what I've been doing.
He's like well, the governmenthates that word marketing.
(04:51):
In the government you have touse comms.
It's all about comms, whichmeans the same thing.
We just can't say marketing,but marketing has a different
perspective for different people.
So how do you envisionmarketing?
Speaker 2 (05:04):
I mean I have all these like fancy technical
definitions, but I will say thatat the end of the day,
marketing is getting the wordout about the things that you
care about.
That's it.
And then you choose how that is.
It can be online, it can beoffline, it can be in so many
different ways.
The one caveat is if I meet youon the street and I go look you
(05:26):
up, I better see the same thing.
I better see that same passion,I better see that same thing.
But really fundamentally andit's one of the things I talked
to about with my clients is likeyou remember when you sold
lemonade on the street and howmuch fun that was?
That's all that marketing is,because I tend to meet with a
lot of people who are prettytight about it.
(05:46):
They get pretty scared about it.
They don't necessarily want togo out and do the things and
they've heard so many thingsabout what it quote unquote has
to be that if we can stripeverything else away and say
look, you really care about thepeople that you serve, you
really care about the work thatyou do and making a difference,
talk about that, make offersaround, that Share, that that's
(06:09):
the marketing.
That's marketing is talking topeople getting out there and
doing things, and I think a lotof people don't realize all of
the ways that they're actuallymarketing now, when they feel
like they're not doing anymarketing at all.
Speaker 1 (06:23):
Right, because my differentiation is I hate sales.
For me, sales is me trying toconvince you to buy from me.
I think if you can mark it well, then you're going to be
begging me to sell to you.
I much prefer that you makethat happen by exactly what you
(06:43):
said.
When I just talk about my stuffout of passion, then people so
I'm a crystal executive withIsagenix.
It's a multi-level marketingproduct.
That's a protein powder.
I've never sold the product.
It's funny because all thepeople that I have sold it to I
(07:04):
always feel bad, because forsome reason, I feel bad about
selling stuff.
But when I first started withit, I was just so passionate
about it because I lost weight,I was racing faster, I had my
best Ironman time ever.
I was beating guys that I couldnever beat before.
They're like how are you doing?
I'm like, oh, I felt thisamazing thing and I would just
go on.
They're like how can we get it?
(07:25):
I'm like, oh, I guess I have tosell it to you.
I could find it weird because Ifeel guilty about that, but
they'd be like no, you must.
They thought I was trying tokeep it for myself because I
didn't want them to have thesame results, but that's
marketing.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
So then you're creating you didn't mean to, but
you're creating all this FOMOwhich makes it even more
attractive, like oh no, youdon't want to sell it to me.
So that's great, that's awesome.
I feel the same way, though.
If you talk about thingsseveral times and you're
different angles of it, you'resharing your expertise.
All of these things, all ofthis passion, all of these
(07:59):
things make you more attractiveto your customers, and people
forget about that.
They think that all of thatstuff is boring or they just
have.
There's all these things withinour minds that keep us from
doing that thing.
That's going to help get to domore of that thing that you want
to do and that's really thework that I do with a lot of
(08:20):
folks is helping with what'sgoing on between the years, so
that we can get some things outand get things happening.
And that's the real magic, Ithink, of being a consultant is
unpacking what's really going onand what the values of the
organization are, and then let'smake a plan around that, let's
(08:41):
do that, and then things startto really unlock for people.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
Okay, so that sounds like empathy to me.
Yeah, and that's just it.
So, as a consultant, it soundslike you empathize, so I'm sure
you have a framework that youuse with your business, with
your marketing, but I think it'snot a cast and stone framework.
(09:06):
No Right, it sounds like youadapt your framework to where
you're customers.
So can you give me someexamples of that?
Speaker 2 (09:14):
Yeah, I mean, I think and I think a lot of this comes
from having such a variedbackground I think it's one of
the things that I offer that alot of people don't is.
I've done everything from DJingto Peace Corps to executive.
I mean it's like I'm all.
I'm multi-passionate myself,but the bottom line has always
been about marketing and doingmarketing.
So I have a framework aroundthe repetition and getting
(09:38):
things out the door.
And then what we do is we justlook at all of the options for
marketing and I'm like, okay,we're going to sit down, you're
going to agree to it's differentfor everybody, but it's kind of
like you're going to agree todo this many tasks that are
marketing related.
Okay, what are the things thatyou're going to be able to do
(09:58):
when we pick from the menu?
And then it's like, okay, nowyou're going to do that, we're
going to put this in thecalendar and you're going to go
network this many times andyou're going to put that in the
calendar.
And then you're going to track,like, what happened after that?
Did you follow up with them?
Did you do what you weresupposed to do?
You're going to write X numberof newsletters.
You're going to talk about youroffers.
You're going to do that.
We're going to put that in thecalendar.
(10:18):
So it's really about like we'rejust mapping things out, we're
picking what it is that we'regoing to do and we get a
rudimentary plan and it kind ofgets people off the shnide and
then they can start running withit and we can start adding
complexity.
It works really well,regardless of how complicated
the organization is, to reallyget people to go.
(10:39):
Oh, okay, now I need to bethinking about it.
We don't focus as much on, likeyou know, marketing metrics as
we do about.
Did I get out and do it?
Did I follow up with the person?
Did it result in any clients?
Did it result in?
You know, because I helpservice-based businesses, so
it's more about clients anddollars and that kind of thing.
Then, like you know, how manywidgets did I sell?
(11:00):
Product-based marketing is alittle bit different than
services.
So, yeah, I mean that's kind ofthe general framework for, like
, say, a marketing plan forsomebody who is really confused
Like I.
And the whole framework cameabout because I do a lot of
mentorship and coaching withfemale business owners through a
(11:21):
project called Accelerate Women.
It's a fund here in Oregon,that you know you can get
finance to help you scale.
And I kept hearing from allthese business owners like I
don't understand, like whyposting on social media is going
to help me with my business,and I kept getting the you know
or I don't understand email andhow that helps my business.
(11:41):
Like there was this hugedisconnect and so I had to
create the framework to say,okay, here's why these things
come together.
And then, like the light wentoff and I was like, well, I can
do an iteration of this, forregardless of how big an
organization is, it just dependson complexity, but the
framework is very similar.
Speaker 1 (12:02):
Okay.
So this is interesting becauseone of the pet peeves I have
with some of my clients is theythink they're going to hire me
as their marketing guy.
They're going to say, okay,I've got this widget, I've got
the services, sell, go, build mea website and then bring me
customers.
And it sounds like that youdon't think I have the power
just to make sales withoutinvolving my client at all.
(12:24):
Are you saying that's true?
Speaker 2 (12:27):
I'm saying that's true.
I'm sorry, mike, I don't know.
I mean, did you go to magicschool?
I didn't.
I didn't get to go to marketingmagic school where I could just
you know, if I build a website,they will come.
That's, it's too bad.
And I've had clients like thattoo I have you know that are
(12:47):
that are like we have thiswebsite.
Why aren't the people justcoming?
And I'm like, well, did youshare the website?
No, did you tell anybody youhave it?
No, what do you mean?
And I'm like, well, we talkedabout it.
Like you have to share it withpeople.
And they're like, oh, okay, butwhat about the SEO?
And I'm like, well, part of itis sharing it with other people
(13:11):
so they read it.
I mean, there is somedistribution that goes on.
We have these conversations too.
And, yeah, I mean I wish itcould be.
If you build it, they will comewith anything.
But we live in a world that isvery complex and has a lot going
on and people are busy, so wehave to remind them, not once or
(13:32):
twice, but a few times, aboutour offers and what it is that
we're doing.
Speaker 1 (13:36):
Right Nowadays, every single day, I think, it grows
exponentially the amount ofdistrust and skepticism.
And so, yeah, without thoseconsistent touches with your
audience, that trust andunderstanding isn't going to be
there.
Speaker 2 (13:57):
Absolutely, and in fact the number of touches is so
funny it's like exponentiallymore touches the longer I'm in
business work.
I think it used to be closer tolike three to five and now
they're like 10 to 100.
I'm like, oh my gosh, that's alot.
But it is because of the lowertrust.
The internet, as great as it is, has also amplified the voices
(14:23):
of people who are dishonest, notjust people who are honest, and
then it means that hardworkingbusiness owners have to work
even harder sometimes to gettheir voice above some of the
people who are nefarious anddon't have good intent.
Speaker 1 (14:41):
Yeah, because I've worked with some incredible
business, great people withgreat products, and I'm really
good at crafting a marketingmessage.
I've got the hook.
I've got the big differentiator.
I've identified all the falselearning beliefs.
The offer is killer.
With guarantees it's anabsolute no-brainer.
The sales aren't pouring inbecause people still don't trust
(15:04):
us.
I could write anything I wantI'm the king of Saïr on my
website.
It doesn't mean it's true, andso even the guarantees.
I see you got the guarantee,but will you honor it?
Who knows?
So, like I said, the peoplehave to feel like you're
something that would welcome tohave dinner at your table before
(15:24):
they'll buy from you.
Speaker 2 (15:25):
Now it seems like that's true, and so the
disconnect I think that peoplehave is I've set everything up.
It's like you're invitingpeople to have dinner with you
and nobody's coming and you'relike but I invited you, I've
invited you 17 times, Right,they're not coming.
(15:46):
And so part of it is that youhave to go a little bit deeper.
You have to be like well, thisis the best fork I could find.
I weighed it.
It feels perfect in your hand.
I've crafted this meal.
I spent so much time cookingyour favorite dishes and here's
why I think that's important toyou and you have to keep doing
(16:08):
it and doing it.
And then they have to decidewhether they want to have dinner
with you.
So it is like a very, a verylong conversation and yeah, I
mean it is harder because a lotof people I would say a lot of
people but there are a fairnumber of people who don't have
good intent and then they tendsometimes to drown out the
people who do, and thensometimes there are a lot of
(16:31):
people who are very empathetic,heart centered folks who they
don't want to intrude.
I get so many people who don'twant to send out an email or
they don't want to.
They're like I don't want tobother anybody.
And the thing is, if you don'tdo marketing, if you don't go
out and invite people in to whatit is that you're offering,
(16:52):
then you're just letting theother people win that maybe
don't have the best intent andthey're missing out on your
great product and they'remissing out on your copy because
they're not going to see it andthey're missing out on all of
that hard work you did to makeeverything exactly how you need
to.
Speaker 1 (17:10):
Right, one of my favorite pastimes not my
favorite, actually, I don'treally like it that much, but I
do it.
I like to go on to Facebookbecause I live off the grid, in
different things.
I'll see a picture of an offthe grid cabin with a leg.
It's like this is my dream homeand it's just a beautiful
picture.
Right, it's just a motivationalor inspirational picture.
(17:31):
I like to scroll through thecomments to start finding all
the negative ones, becausethere's people who can throw
stones at this beautiful like oh, I'd like to see how you do in
the winter with no driveway.
It's like you know, can't wejust accept that?
It's a nice picture and thisdream that we're never going to
do, but we could have dreamedabout it.
(17:51):
But no, there's the realtace.
Like, oh, I don't see any phonelines going into that.
Speaker 2 (17:56):
I was like come on, you know, and that's why people
get it's the trolls right,that's why people get so tight
about things like social mediaand stuff.
And it's so interesting becauseI had a troll on YouTube for a
while and it was like everysingle thing I posted on YouTube
and they're all like, hey,marketing is cool, like there
wasn't anything that I thought.
(18:17):
Anyway, that was like superlike, crazy, out of bounds
scammy, anything, you know, andit was just like thumbs down,
troll comment, you know, and itgot to where it was just comical
, like I was just like, oh wow,they have, they're so bored they
have nothing to do but wait formy new video to come up, you
know, and I think that that iswhat kind of helped me just be
(18:39):
like there's always going to besomebody, you know, and I knew
that from managing people.
But like out in the other, youknow, there are those trolls
under a bridge who are justgoing to throw a rock through
any window they can find.
And we have to keep goinganyway, and you have to find a
way to kind of laugh at it,which for me, in that case, was
dude.
Talk about someone who's bored,like I was waiting for my
(19:03):
YouTube video so they can make acomment, and but it's hard,
right, like you have to buildthat online armor a little bit
if you're going to be out in thepublic eye and doing things,
because there's always going tobe somebody.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:16):
Because unless you write or present something
totally over the top amazing,it's pretty tough to get
positive love from strangers,right.
Right, there will be a lot ofpeople that do really like it,
but they're not going to extendthemselves and write anything.
And so there's a whole bunch ofpeople that are seeing your
stuff and they're loving yourstuff.
They're not going to be sovocal about it, but you got Joe
(19:37):
Troll there who has never missedan episode, watches your entire
20 minute education onmarketing just so he can zing
you at the end.
It's like whoa dude.
Speaker 2 (19:46):
Yeah, thumbs down, brah, thanks.
Yeah.
Yeah, peace out, yeah, and it'sso funny too, because I didn't
even think they were watching it, I think it was just oh,
there's Jen, no, so it's just aninteresting thing.
And you're right, I get thatpeople see stuff and they don't
say anything.
(20:09):
So what we fill the void withand I think that you find this a
lot in working around empathy,because I know that I certainly
find it is in that void webombard ourselves sometimes with
all the negative things aroundwhat it means when it's just
like somebody saw it, they lovedit and they moved on with their
life, and we're like, oh God,it must have just been so
(20:30):
terrible.
I better go back and work on it, I better refine it, I better
take it down, I'm not going toput anything up for a while.
We fill ourselves with all ofthis negativity instead of just
saying, oh, keep going.
Yeah, but it takes a while tobuild up that resiliency, at
least it seems in the folks thatI work with and I would share
(20:54):
with my own stuff too.
It's a lot different when youwork I did in a big organization
all this infrastructure andeverything, and then the
infrastructure is gone.
It's a lot different out herein the wild west.
Speaker 1 (21:07):
Yeah, and you probably experience the same
thing if you're posting theYouTube regularly, Like a lot of
first times I meet with acustomer first time, first time
I'm on a discovery call withthem.
They're quoting my videos andthey're saying, like well, I've
been following you for months, Ifinally got ready to reach out
and contact you.
But that's what your audiencehas to.
(21:28):
Your clients have to remember.
It's like there are peoplepositively stalking you.
Yeah, yeah, they're checking meout.
Speaker 2 (21:35):
Yeah, you know every you know.
If you think that you're comingin off the street and they
don't know anything about you,you're wrong.
I mean the statistics and myfirst hand knowledge, your first
hand knowledge.
They just really reinforce thefact that they're looking at
reviews.
They're looking at your publicprofiles there.
If you have videos, they'rewatching them.
They want to know if they likeyou.
(21:56):
They want to know if it'smaking sense or not, because
when you hire a marketing personor anybody for your business,
it's an investment.
Right, am I going to investtime with this person?
You know, and that's the thingyou know people don't
necessarily think of marketingas the long game and they run
out of patience a lot.
And what I really try toreinforce with my clients and
(22:20):
out in my writing and my videosis like the worst thing you can
do is just give up.
You have to keep at it for awhile and give it a chance
before you know really what'sworking and what's not working
and what it is that you need todo.
Speaker 1 (22:37):
Yeah, I just onboarded a client this morning
actually, and she's an amazingtax accountant in California and
she goes beyond that and shewants to offer a high ticket
coaching offer where bookkeepingand tax returns are included.
But she sent me her most recentblog posts from 2020 and I was
(22:58):
like, okay, I can help you withthis, but we're not going to
make any sales in the next monthor two months Because, like,
you're just letting.
Well, just, you know, you'rejust an accountant right now and
to go to a high ticket coaching, they've got to stalk you and
we don't really have anythingrecent to be stalked and so
you've got to put in that time.
(23:19):
Luckily, she's superintelligent when we say, oh,
she's disappointed because shewanted to make a sale like the
day after hiring me.
But when I explained to her,you know the work that's
involved, she's like yeah, no,that you know, I get it.
Speaker 2 (23:32):
I get it Tracks.
That makes sense.
Yeah, yeah, you know, andthat's the thing you know.
There are a lot of people whodon't want to make content, you
know, and it's kind of hardsometimes if you know, without
that, you know you're providingpeople with fodder for, like,
making a decision.
You know, with every piece ofcontent that you create, and so
(23:54):
I'm always trying to worm my wayinto like, well, what about
this?
You said you didn't want towrite blogs, but where did you
make a video?
Okay, you won't make a video,but like, what about?
Like an email?
Like, will you do that?
Speaker 1 (24:05):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:06):
Like I'm always trying to figure out like what's
the soft spot.
You know it's like because whenpeople are so adamant about not
wanting to create content, thenthey don't understand how many
you know.
Other windows kind of close atthat point in terms of what it
is that you can do and we haveto keep kind of exploring like
how we're going to get the wordout.
(24:27):
You know, because the thing islike we can talk about like
earlier I mentioned things likenetworking and stuff, but at a
certain point you know the wordof mouth and networking you're
not going to be able to likescale at that point.
You know you can alwaysreinforce things and do things,
but when you're trying to getout in the public eye and do and
(24:48):
have like high ticket items andhave people coming in, like
sometimes you've got to stepinto the limelight and you've
got to blog more often thanevery three years or four years,
like the blog from 2020, youknow, when I stumble upon
websites that have a blog fromthree or four years ago, I'm
like are they still around?
Yeah, Are they just paying for?
Speaker 1 (25:10):
this website.
Yeah Well, that's what gears,because it's my understanding
that you once wrote quite thecontroversial blog post yourself
.
Yes, I did.
Tell a little bit about that inthe.
Let's call it the fallout, thefallout.
Speaker 2 (25:25):
You know it's so interesting so I think I wrote
it.
You know, I always kind of lookback.
I think I wrote it in like 2019, 2018.
I wrote a blog post aboutClickFunnels.
That was.
You know, reasons why youshould or shouldn't use
ClickFunnels and what to doinstead.
And the thing about it is, ifyou've ever I'm sure most people
(25:48):
have heard of ClickFunnels,most people have heard of
Russell Brunson.
They've done all of the thingsIf you ever look up ClickFunnels
reviews, almost every singleClickFunnels review is like you
need to buy ClickFunnels.
Here's my affiliate link, youknow.
And so one of the things thatmade what I wrote so different
was that I was like well, youknow, a no affiliate links.
(26:09):
B I'm not an active customer.
C I'm somebody who's supportedother people who've had
ClickFunnels.
So I've written.
I wrote about like who it worksfor, who it doesn't work for,
about the FOMO that it createsand that whole excitement around
getting somebody to buy a newproduct.
And then the aftermath of likea product that maybe doesn't
(26:30):
always perform the way itpromises the people who are
marketed to about it that can'tgenerally afford that kind of
product, maybe their businessisn't ready yet for like a sales
funnel and a whole online likesales, a whole online
marketplace, basically createdthrough ClickFunnels because
it's a little bit more advancedof a product really for like who
(26:55):
it's marketed to, which are,like they, at home moms who want
to sell printables or somethinglike that.
That's who they market to andthen, but the people who are
really successful with it have abig audience and a team and are
really well-developedsalespeople.
So I wrote about all of that.
It was very cathartic, feltvery good because I work a lot
(27:17):
on SEO.
I SEOed the heck out of it andhere we are like five years
later.
I keep updating it and doingthe work and under ClickFunnels
reviews, I'm like rank numbertwo.
I get unbelievable traffic fromit and I was in a documentary
as the person like sitting onthe couch in the basement saying
(27:37):
no, yeah, you don't need allthat.
Yeah, no, nabra, it's not thatimportant.
Well, they're like interviewingall these high flyers and so I
really hope it comes out.
You know it's called Click theLink Below and you never know
with the documentary if it'sgoing to actually make it to
theaters or not.
(27:57):
It was such an interestingexperience because I was like we
always tell our clients writesomething controversial, go out
on a limb and talk about thethings you're passionate about.
And then I did it, and then allthis stuff happened and I'm
like, see, and I can tell myclients Because they had a it
was a Swedish, a couple ofSwedish men who were making this
(28:20):
film, and they were likezooming me in and they hired,
like this local, like Emmywinning cameraman, and like
there's somebody in my houseright now doing like
professional lighting andmic'ing me to talk about
ClickFunnels.
Like this is the weirdest thingI've ever heard, you know, and
I have so many clients andpeople who talk about things
(28:41):
that are far more interestingthan this.
And here I am and so I'm kindof like you can write about
anything and you have no idea,like what kind of attention you
could get, and so it's really agood lesson in going out on a
limb and talking about thethings that you care about, and
even if it's different, you know, I've never really gotten a lot
(29:01):
of.
You know, nobody's ever givenme low back.
I've had employees, formeremployees from ClickFunnels,
saying, well, you're not wrong,I've gotten messages and stuff,
and you know, and it's just kindof I'm surprised you gave it
two stars.
So, like you know, so it's justkind of an interesting
experience and it's a it was aninteresting experiment, you know
(29:24):
, and kind of how you cangenerate a lot of interest and
excitement by being differentand sharing an experience that
runs counter to, you know, allof the you know programming out
there.
So, yeah, I did that.
It was a thing Very cool ithelps to be a good writer.
(29:46):
I will say that Definitely.
Speaker 1 (29:52):
So that's one type of marketing and I call Russell
with love a hopeium dealer, likehe just deals in hope, right,
and it's so addictive and he'snot the only one who does it
Like we're all getting hit byFrank Kern and his stuff.
I don't remember, like lastyear he had this big offer of
how he generated whatever like$7,412 and a single day with
(30:14):
zero ad spend.
Let me show you how to how youdo it.
Well, first, you just need, youknow, 1.7 million followers.
If you got 1.7 millionfollowers and a decent offer,
you can make that sort of money.
But all these guys are like,look, how easy it was for me,
you can do it too.
And I'm not taking anythingaway from Frank Kern because
(30:37):
it's easy for him now, right,but he did the work then.
Exactly, there's a reason he has1.7 million followers right and
he can throw an offer and makethe money.
But so many of these hopeiumdealers kind of skip that part
just to the like.
You know, I sent out an emailand made $7,000.
Who wants to see the email?
Like, yeah, I've got like sevenpeople I can send that email to
(30:58):
.
I hope I can make some decentmoney.
Speaker 2 (31:01):
My mom's in the market, Like, yeah, I mean it's,
you know, it's just, and it'sfunny and it's sad because what
happens then is people startlike using these tactics on
people they know and they canalienate themselves if they
don't know what it is thatthey're doing.
And I've never heard the termhopeium dealer, but yeah, I mean
(31:23):
that's.
Yeah, it's a lot of FOMO.
You feel like you're going tobe part of this big community
and it's going to be so great.
You're going to make all ofthis money.
And it's hard for somebody likeme who comes in and like kind
of throws water on the fire,because I'm like, well, all of
that is true and there's allthis infrastructure that has to
(31:43):
be in place in order for that tobecome the reality.
And so what I, what I reallywant for people is to scale
responsibly, and that's what alot of my offers are about,
because I have a reallytechnical background.
So a lot, of, a lot of times,we're looking at the processes
that are broken and positioningthem for growth so that they can
(32:07):
do it.
You know, because what happensis they invest in something like
a click funnels and then offersit.
It's like offer island, likenothing, talks to anything else
and things take longer than theythink it should.
There are so many stops andkinks in the hose in the process
that you know reducing costs,streamlining, so you offer like
(32:27):
a really like solid goldonboarding process and
everything like that.
These things are what helps yougrow an audience, like because
everybody has a good experience,they tell their friends and
then, after some of those things, then you can think about like
a click funnels or some of thesome of the Hopium dealers might
be, it might you might be timefor some of the.
(32:48):
The other thing I tell people islike it's cool that you watch
Gary Vaynerchuk, but if youreally want to know about the
hard work it took for him to getthere, go to the very beginning
of of Wine Library.
You know, I know, see, evenyour dog agrees.
See, I have the same problem atmy house.
(33:13):
Man Can never bring a dog, aball and two dogs in the house.
Speaker 1 (33:17):
Yeah, this is.
They've got a thousand toys andthere's this one orange ball.
That is the much coveted musthave ball.
Speaker 2 (33:24):
We have one of those.
We try to hide it and theyalways find it.
Speaker 1 (33:29):
See if they're calling, but yeah, I mean it's,
it's just really hard.
Speaker 2 (33:32):
You know it's hard for people to navigate all of it
.
And they see the Frank Kearnsand the Gary Vaynerchuk and they
see all these people afterthey've done all of this
practice and they've gonethrough the hard part and they
didn't when they didn't haveanybody.
And then they see it now andthey're like well, I want that,
but I don't know.
I don't know if you everwatched the TV show Seinfeld,
but it's kind of like yada, yadayada, I'm a millionaire like,
(33:55):
and it's kind of like well, yeah, but each yada is pretty
important.
Yeah, yeah that's where you getthere.
Speaker 1 (34:01):
That's a good one.
Yeah, it's funny.
I'm in one of the funnelbuilding groups not click
funnels, let's call it XYZfunnels and I was following your
, your, your advice and likegetting content out there, and I
was posting in that group youknow quite regularly about the
strategy, about the messaging,and one of the admins asked me
(34:21):
not to post so much about thatstuff because it wasn't about
XYZ funnels.
I'm like because they justwanted like how do you automate
an email system?
How do you make the font blue?
How do you?
I was like none of that stuffmatters.
Yeah, if you don't have themessage like well, you know, I
kind of understand, but wereally always want to keep our
(34:41):
platform about, you know, thefunnels.
Yeah, and that's one of thebiggest things is everybody
thinks that the funnel is goingto do the work and it's just a
delivery system.
Speaker 2 (34:52):
Yeah, yeah, cause they asked.
They asked me in thedocumentary like what's the
definition of a of sales funnel?
I was like it's a sales process.
Speaker 1 (35:00):
Right.
Speaker 2 (35:01):
And then there was like all this silence, because I
think they expected like somebig, dedicated thing and like
it's your online sales process.
Speaker 1 (35:09):
Yeah, Cause like and it only works yeah.
Like we got to like yeah, Iknow, you know we make fun of
Russell and stuff, but we, weboth give them huge props and
credit.
Speaker 2 (35:20):
Huge props yeah.
Speaker 1 (35:21):
Yeah, and cause he was the one who said websites
are dead.
Right, that was.
That was mind blowing.
What do you mean?
Websites are dead, you don'tneed a website, you need a sales
funnel.
So, with his definition, it's,you know, it's a one problem,
one solution and website,whereas the reality is what
you're saying is a funnel startsfrom your organic posts.
It starts from, you know,talking to somebody on the
(35:43):
street and it ends, you know,maybe a couple of weeks, months
later, with a phone call and theand the close.
It's not those, you know, threelanding pages in the middle.
Speaker 2 (35:54):
See, and it's not, and it's not.
I'm not throwing shade atRussell Brunson.
He's fabulous, he's brilliant,Like that.
That's not the point.
The point is that you can't addany technology, whether it's
XYZ funnels, click funnels,WordPress, whatever.
You can't do that unless youknow what you're doing and what
(36:15):
works, because that's what makeswhat makes click funnels work
is the magic of knowing whatyour people want and how to
deliver it in the online space.
And you do that throughmessaging, you do that through,
like, touch points and ads andall the different things that
you have to do to make thefunnel go.
You're right, it's not about ifthe button is orange or not.
(36:36):
You know, and honestly, ittruly doesn't matter how pretty
the funnel is either.
It's really like do peopleunderstand what I'm trying to do
here?
Is it a reflection of who I am?
Is it a reflection of my salesprocess?
And if you can check all theboxes and people know, like and
trust you, then it's going towork Exactly.
But nobody wants to hear allthat.
(36:56):
They want the magic software.
The magic software.
It's like the magic beans, youknow.
Speaker 1 (37:02):
I think I got my hand slap for being negative before
too, because somebody wastalking about you know all this
tech behind their coaching thingthat they're going to offer.
And somehow I got I'm like,have you sold any yet?
Like, oh, no, it's not built.
I'm like you don't have tobuild it.
I'm like does anybody want tobuy it?
Have you pre-sold it at onetenth of a cost?
Like, no, I'm going to waituntil it's built, because people
(37:25):
, it's so much fun to buildstuff like click funnels or
whatever.
Oh, yeah, they're building.
They have this huge thing andwith all the buttons and the
bells and the whistles and youcan track how much videos they
watch and all this stuff.
But then it's the ugly part ofhaving to sell it.
And so people again, it's abuild it.
They think, oh, I'll just buildit and then they'll sell.
And I'm a big believer in yougot to whatever you're, I don't
(37:47):
care what it is, you got topre-sell a couple of them.
Like, just just, I don't, Idon't give yourself for a dollar
.
Just like, will somebody buy it?
Speaker 2 (37:56):
Yeah, you know, I mean it's and it's hard right.
You know, I mean I have acommunity, an online community.
I have people in there and andthey're I'm like I keep saying
we got to get out of tweak mode.
It's about doing it.
I'm giving you things that youcan be doing, but it's still
about prioritizing and executingand doing it.
(38:20):
You can't just be build, build,build.
It's got to be pre-sale release.
You have to go through a wholelaunch cycle if you're going to
do that, because, yeah, you'reright, it's fun to build.
I took myself off of WordPress.
As somebody who develops andworks in WordPress, I was like I
don't need to be tweaking myown website all the time.
(38:41):
I need to be talking to morepeople.
The answer is sometimes youhave to take some of that stuff
out of your own hands.
You make it less fun foryourself to tweak everything so
that then you can get more inthe execution mode.
Speaker 1 (38:59):
I know Russell a little bit personally and he's a
bit of a perfectionist.
The stuff he puts out has a lotof thought behind it.
Do you think Frank Kern hasever put out anything even close
to perfect?
Like Kern will just be sleepingin bed.
He's like I got an idea.
He gets on his phone and hesells it.
He's figuring out what he'stalking about as he's going.
(39:23):
He had no idea when he startedthe live what he was going to
talk about.
He just offer, offer, offerafter offer.
He just waits and most of themfail.
Something clicks.
He's like oh, who knew thatwould click.
Then he gets his team to startpushing that one thing.
But he sells everything beforehe makes it.
Speaker 2 (39:43):
Yeah, no, yeah.
You have to do that, otherwiseyou're just in constant
development mode.
That's the whole philosophyaround.
Fail fast, you just put it outthere, just keep putting it out
there.
Then if it's not going to work,then you have to abandon it.
The problem is a lot of peopleget too attached.
(40:04):
I've done that before too.
I think everybody's done that.
You get too attached to theidea and you don't want to
pre-sell it, because what ifpeople don't like it?
It's like well, yeah, becausethat means you need to come up
with another thing.
Speaker 1 (40:17):
You said you got to get past the trolls.
That's not hard to do.
How do you get past?
I said not hard to do.
I said that's not easy to do toget past the trolls.
Then you've got failure.
Failing is hard.
You've got your baby.
You put it out there.
Everybody says, oh, your baby'sugly.
How do you get past that?
Speaker 2 (40:37):
Yeah, everybody's different.
How you get through that ispretty personal.
I think it's a lot easier themore that you know about your
ideal customers.
What happens a lot, I think,from what I've seen among
clients and other people, isthey haven't necessarily done
enough of the work beforehand.
(40:57):
They get pretty frustrated thenwhen things don't go as they
expect.
There shouldn't be a ton ofsurprises on, especially like a
high ticket offer.
That means that you've donesome things beforehand that lead
up to it.
Hopefully You're not justbuilding toward this offer
without testing it.
(41:17):
People don't realize how muchof marketing is a test.
What Frank Kern is doing istesting.
He's just like I'm going tothrow this offer out there.
If it works, we're going tomake it, if it doesn't, well.
Speaker 1 (41:30):
I'll throw it with something else.
Speaker 2 (41:32):
That's the thing.
A lot of people get tooattached to that first idea, not
knowing that there's otherideas behind it.
There's other things that cancome.
I don't really have thatproblem because I have about
1,000 ideas a day.
I acknowledge that noteverybody's like that and it can
be agonizing to feel thatfailure because the conversation
(41:58):
around success is so much aboutall the good parts.
We don't really focus on thefact that you have to fail in
order to succeed.
I can't think of any time in mylife where I succeeded without
some sort of failure before it.
It's just that we don't talkabout that.
We're conditioned to not talkabout that.
Speaker 1 (42:21):
Success after failure is so much more valuable
because if you succeed after youfail, you know what caused the
success.
If you succeed out of the box,people are like what did you do,
I don't know?
It was funny.
I was watching Jimmy Fallonwith Keith Richards and he had
an acoustic guitar and he'splaying Jumping Jack Flash.
(42:42):
Oh my God, wow, that justsounded amazing.
Jimmy Fallon asked KeithRichards how did you do that?
How did you make that dollarstore acoustic guitar sound like
an electric guitar?
Keith's like I don't know.
He's like I know I can do it.
I just don't know how I can doit.
Nobody else could have pickedup that guitar and made it sound
(43:05):
the way Keith Richards did.
And he doesn't know how he doesit.
He doesn't purposely do it,it's just what flows out of him.
So when something just flowsout of you like that, it's hard
to reproduce.
Keith can't teach me to playlike he can because he doesn't
know.
He doesn't know how.
Right.
And had Keith work to developthat sound, then he could teach
other people.
Speaker 2 (43:27):
Yeah, I mean, there is something to genius, right In
some ways.
Michael Jordan can't teachpeople how to play basketball
like him, keith Richards can'tteach people how to play guitar
like him, to an extent maybeeven like Russell Brunson and
Frank Kern, and some peoplecan't teach you exactly how to
(43:49):
do it.
Some of that stuff has to bewithin yourself and you have to
be willing to face the failure amillion times.
If you think about a musicianor a basketball player I can't
remember the stats now onMichael Jordan but you think of
him as the person that you wantto take the last shot.
He missed a lot of last shotsRight, he missed more than he
(44:13):
made, but we remember the onesthat he made because they were
in the biggest moments.
But there's a lot of shots thatwe miss, but the thing is you
still have to take the shot.
That's right.
That's the thing that I want toencourage people most of all is
take your shots and then takeyour lumps if it works or not.
Speaker 1 (44:37):
So I think this is it .
So I'd like to close theinterview with what is one thing
that somebody can implementtoday to move the needle, and I
think you might have been sayingit right there, so let's just
reiterate that.
Speaker 2 (44:51):
Take your shots, get out there and do it.
You have to start taking action.
That isn't in the planningphases, it isn't in the I'm
going to build the thing.
You have to start talking aboutthings publicly.
You have to start sharing youroffers, sharing your deals and
getting it out there.
I can't hear you.
(45:20):
You coughed on, you coughed on,I did it backwards, you did it
backwards.
Speaker 1 (45:26):
For those of you listening and not watching I
unmuted when I started coughingand then I muted when I was done
coughing, so let's start againyou don't want me to cough
through it, or you don't want tocough through it.
Wow, damn it, all right.
So, jen, I think you're, sowe'll just start back with the
(45:50):
one take, with I'll edit thatcoughing spasm out, because
that's where I cough through.
So, jen, I think you've alreadyjust sort of said this, but I
like to end each interview withone thing that you can do right
away to start moving the needle.
I think you've kind of said itwith taking the shots.
Just want to reiterate that forus.
Speaker 2 (46:08):
Yeah.
So remember at the verybeginning when I said marketing
is getting the word out aboutthe things that you care about,
and then you do it over and overand over again and you have to
take those shots.
You have to get out there, youhave to do something to talk
about what it is that you'reoffering, and then you have to
practice enough on that that youfind the thing that you like to
(46:29):
do and that you're willing tofail at and do it.
You have to get out of thisspace of when it's perfect, I'm
going to do it, or when it's allbuilt, I'm going to do it.
Those start to become excuses.
They're not always excuses inthe beginning, but at the end it
becomes more of a barrier.
So what we want to do is breakthrough those barriers, start
(46:51):
taking a few risks so that wecan start to see the rewards,
because you'll never get thereunless you start getting out
there.
Speaker 1 (46:59):
Very cool.
So if people wanted to learnmore about you or ways that you
could help them, do you haveanything for my listening
audience, for your listeningaudience?
Speaker 2 (47:13):
If you go to womenconquerbizcom, I have a few
classes there that are freethat you can get into how to get
5% more leads from your Googlebusiness profile, which is,
believe it or not, a really bigthing that you can do, oh my
gosh.
Speaker 1 (47:33):
So I just want to touch on that for a second 5%.
I want 500%.
Jen, why are you saying 5%?
Why can't I get 500%?
Speaker 2 (47:42):
Well, you can, because if you're not getting
any leads at all, then you canget 500%.
It's because I'm honest, I'mnot going to tell you you're
going to get 500% more leads.
Statistically, people can get5% more leads from a good,
well-written Google businessprofile.
Speaker 1 (48:03):
Okay, and that's so.
I, you know I was beingtongue-in-cheek there because
that's something else like and Idon't know why I don't usually
talk about Frank Kern this much,but Frank did some.
He was showing his ad agencyand he was saying, yeah, he's
got a few different ad agenciesand one of them was consistently
getting him $2 for every dollarhe spent.
I guess he'd forgotten aboutthem.
(48:23):
He's like oh, I went into thisaccount and they're getting me
like $2 for every dollar.
And he's just so excited aboutthat.
And because that's the reality,like so many of the big the
Hopium dealers are like you know100 times your thing, right?
Or you can make all this moneywith no ad spend.
And it's just so nice to hearsomebody like be open and say
(48:44):
you know what?
I can get you 5%, because 5% isawesome, especially if it's,
you know, compounded, daily sortof thing, right?
Speaker 2 (48:51):
Yeah, I mean, that's the thing you know and so, yeah,
I guess it's not like hotmarketing copy, but it's the
honest, the honest marketingcopy of you know, hey, if you're
not getting anything from it,if you wrote it once and forgot
about it, hey, let's justremember that and make this part
of our workflow and you mightsee 5% bump or maybe more.
Speaker 1 (49:12):
Right, so very cool.
Yeah.
Well, jen, again, it was greathaving you as a guest.
I love, like my individuals.
I loved your honesty.
I loved your.
You don't have any Hopium todeal to us.
I love that.
It was great chatting with you.
Thanks, yeah.
Speaker 2 (49:27):
Thanks, it was great meeting you and, yeah, just glad
to be here.
Thanks a lot.
Speaker 1 (49:32):
All right, thanks.
And that is a wrap for thisepisode of Because Business is
Personal.
Thanks for joining us and don'tforget to take advantage of my
two special offers.
First, you can get a free copyof my bestselling book, empathic
Marketing.
You just pay for the shipping.
Or you can have 50% discount onmy Gap Analysis session with
(49:55):
the coupon code.
Podcast.
Let's head over towwwBecauseBusinessIsPersonalcom
or check the show notes fordetails.
If you've enjoyed today'sepisode, please don't forget to
follow, subscribe, leave areview and share the podcast
with others who might benefit.
Your support means the world tous, so stay tuned for our next
(50:19):
episode, where we'll continue todelve into the intersection of
empathy and marketing strategy.
Remember, because Business isIndeed Personal, every
connection counts.
Until next time.
See you then.
Hey, welcome to the Because Business is Personal
podcast, the podcast whereempathy meets marketing strategy
.
I'm your host, mike Caldwell,but I'm also known as the
marketing medic.
Now, the reason for that isbecause, before becoming a
marketing strategist, I actuallyworked as a paramedic for 12
years, and it was during thattime that I realized how
(00:20):
important it was to trulyunderstand the problems your
patient was facing before youstarted providing treatment.
And it's this sameunderstanding, the same empathy,
is just as crucial when itcomes to understanding our
prospects and making sales, andthat's why, in each episode,
we'll dissect the art ofempathic marketing, exploring
(00:42):
how top professionals infuseempathy into their strategies to
build stronger relationships,boost their sales and make a
lasting impact.
So buckle up and prepare toturn up the dial on your
marketing effectiveness.
Hey, everyone, welcome back toanother episode of Because
Business is Personal.
Today we've got with us thesuper exciting and dynamic Jen
(01:06):
McFarland.
She's a passionate andcompassionate champion for
entrepreneurs, founders andbusiness owners.
She built her business toencourage people with great
ideas to reach their fullpotential, particularly women,
non-binary folks and people ofcolor.
A natural teacher and giftedspeaker, jen's committed to
providing you with fun stories,stories and great value.
(01:28):
So welcome Jen.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
Hey, thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (01:36):
So I didn't come prepared.
Did you come prepared with adad joke?
Speaker 2 (01:40):
Oh, with a dad joke, I mean, there's just so many, I
don't.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
So tell me.
Speaker 2 (01:45):
Do you have anything to share?
You didn't have one.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
No, that's how we usually start, but I forgot this
time.
Speaker 2 (01:52):
You know it was coming and you didn't.
Speaker 1 (01:53):
No.
Speaker 2 (01:54):
I didn't have one because my other bio talks about
dad jokes and how much I lovedad jokes, so Okay, well, we'll
mull on it and we'll come back.
Speaker 1 (02:01):
We'll come up with something.
Speaker 2 (02:02):
Don't worry about it.
Speaker 1 (02:03):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
It's all good All right so, Jen.
Speaker 1 (02:07):
so let's give us a little bit of background to who
you are and who you help.
Speaker 2 (02:12):
Yeah, so my company is called William and Conker
Business.
People ask if I help men andI'm like sure you just have to
be cool with the business name.
You know, kind of believe thatwe're all in it together.
We're all trying to build athing.
I started off in marketing wayback when because I could
identify a scanner.
I'm not even kidding.
I was like in an interview andI had done all this design work
(02:32):
and stuff and the guy's likewhat's that?
And I'm like a scanner, andhe's like you're hired, and I
was like really Okay, and sothen I worked for a long time as
an in-house designer.
I did a lot of graphics.
I designed educational posters,video covers, you name it.
Then I went into the PeaceCorps for a couple of years and
I lived in Kazakhstan.
My husband and I went there andwe lived and worked and taught
(02:55):
in Kazakhstan for two years.
I came back, I got a master'sdegree in leadership and
management, worked as anexecutive at the city of
Portland, helped with theirwebsite and boosted traffic at
my bureau by like 250%.
I got kind of bored withhelping nameless, faceless
hordes and crowds of people withthese huge projects and started
(03:16):
my own consultancy.
And here we are.
Okay, well, cool yeah.
Speaker 1 (03:22):
It's interesting because I didn't know about your
master's degree, because I havea master's degree it's called a
master of science andmanagement from Regis University
, but it was all.
It was mostly leadership stuff.
Yeah, and it's funny becauseI'm so literal.
I'm like how is this a sciencedegree?
It seems pretty, seems likeleadership really a science, I
(03:43):
don't know it sure as a sciencedegree or an arts degree.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
I have an MPA, so it's a master of public
administration.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (03:51):
So it was.
It's kind of like an MBA forgovernment.
Speaker 1 (03:55):
Okay, gotcha.
Speaker 2 (03:56):
Yeah, I really thought I was going to work in
government forever.
I did for about 10 years andthen I was like, yeah, I need to
do something else.
So Okay.
Speaker 1 (04:05):
So one question I have is, since you're a
marketing expert, is how do youdefine marketing?
Because, especially so, it'sfunny you bring up the
government because my buddy Joe,he wants me to do consulting
work for the government.
He's a consultant in thegovernment.
He's like dude.
You're like well, it's $1,000 aday per day, it's just easy
money.
And I'm like but I'm aparamedic and I'm a marketing
(04:29):
guy Like I don't know how Icould serve.
He's like don't worry, it'sjust a club and you just need to
know somebody in the club toget you in.
And I'm in the club.
So anyway, it was funny becausewhen I was creating my CV for
the public sector, he justtrashed.
He's like oh my God, you justsay like marketing and every one
of your bio things.
I'm like well, that's becausethat's what I've been doing.
He's like well, the governmenthates that word marketing.
(04:51):
In the government you have touse comms.
It's all about comms, whichmeans the same thing.
We just can't say marketing,but marketing has a different
perspective for different people.
So how do you envisionmarketing?
Speaker 2 (05:04):
I mean I have all these like fancy technical
definitions, but I will say thatat the end of the day,
marketing is getting the wordout about the things that you
care about.
That's it.
And then you choose how that is.
It can be online, it can beoffline, it can be in so many
different ways.
The one caveat is if I meet youon the street and I go look you
(05:26):
up, I better see the same thing.
I better see that same passion,I better see that same thing.
But really fundamentally andit's one of the things I talked
to about with my clients is likeyou remember when you sold
lemonade on the street and howmuch fun that was?
That's all that marketing is,because I tend to meet with a
lot of people who are prettytight about it.
(05:46):
They get pretty scared about it.
They don't necessarily want togo out and do the things and
they've heard so many thingsabout what it quote unquote has
to be that if we can stripeverything else away and say
look, you really care about thepeople that you serve, you
really care about the work thatyou do and making a difference,
talk about that, make offersaround, that Share, that that's
(06:09):
the marketing.
That's marketing is talking topeople getting out there and
doing things, and I think a lotof people don't realize all of
the ways that they're actuallymarketing now, when they feel
like they're not doing anymarketing at all.
Speaker 1 (06:23):
Right, because my differentiation is I hate sales.
For me, sales is me trying toconvince you to buy from me.
I think if you can mark it well, then you're going to be
begging me to sell to you.
I much prefer that you makethat happen by exactly what you
(06:43):
said.
When I just talk about my stuffout of passion, then people so
I'm a crystal executive withIsagenix.
It's a multi-level marketingproduct.
That's a protein powder.
I've never sold the product.
It's funny because all thepeople that I have sold it to I
(07:04):
always feel bad, because forsome reason, I feel bad about
selling stuff.
But when I first started withit, I was just so passionate
about it because I lost weight,I was racing faster, I had my
best Ironman time ever.
I was beating guys that I couldnever beat before.
They're like how are you doing?
I'm like, oh, I felt thisamazing thing and I would just
go on.
They're like how can we get it?
(07:25):
I'm like, oh, I guess I have tosell it to you.
I could find it weird because Ifeel guilty about that, but
they'd be like no, you must.
They thought I was trying tokeep it for myself because I
didn't want them to have thesame results, but that's
marketing.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
So then you're creating you didn't mean to, but
you're creating all this FOMOwhich makes it even more
attractive, like oh no, youdon't want to sell it to me.
So that's great, that's awesome.
I feel the same way, though.
If you talk about thingsseveral times and you're
different angles of it, you'resharing your expertise.
All of these things, all ofthis passion, all of these
(07:59):
things make you more attractiveto your customers, and people
forget about that.
They think that all of thatstuff is boring or they just
have.
There's all these things withinour minds that keep us from
doing that thing.
That's going to help get to domore of that thing that you want
to do and that's really thework that I do with a lot of
(08:20):
folks is helping with what'sgoing on between the years, so
that we can get some things outand get things happening.
And that's the real magic, Ithink, of being a consultant is
unpacking what's really going onand what the values of the
organization are, and then let'smake a plan around that, let's
(08:41):
do that, and then things startto really unlock for people.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
Okay, so that sounds like empathy to me.
Yeah, and that's just it.
So, as a consultant, it soundslike you empathize, so I'm sure
you have a framework that youuse with your business, with
your marketing, but I think it'snot a cast and stone framework.
(09:06):
No Right, it sounds like youadapt your framework to where
you're customers.
So can you give me someexamples of that?
Speaker 2 (09:14):
Yeah, I mean, I think and I think a lot of this comes
from having such a variedbackground I think it's one of
the things that I offer that alot of people don't is.
I've done everything from DJingto Peace Corps to executive.
I mean it's like I'm all.
I'm multi-passionate myself,but the bottom line has always
been about marketing and doingmarketing.
So I have a framework aroundthe repetition and getting
(09:38):
things out the door.
And then what we do is we justlook at all of the options for
marketing and I'm like, okay,we're going to sit down, you're
going to agree to it's differentfor everybody, but it's kind of
like you're going to agree todo this many tasks that are
marketing related.
Okay, what are the things thatyou're going to be able to do
(09:58):
when we pick from the menu?
And then it's like, okay, nowyou're going to do that, we're
going to put this in thecalendar and you're going to go
network this many times andyou're going to put that in the
calendar.
And then you're going to track,like, what happened after that?
Did you follow up with them?
Did you do what you weresupposed to do?
You're going to write X numberof newsletters.
You're going to talk about youroffers.
You're going to do that.
We're going to put that in thecalendar.
(10:18):
So it's really about like we'rejust mapping things out, we're
picking what it is that we'regoing to do and we get a
rudimentary plan and it kind ofgets people off the shnide and
then they can start running withit and we can start adding
complexity.
It works really well,regardless of how complicated
the organization is, to reallyget people to go.
(10:39):
Oh, okay, now I need to bethinking about it.
We don't focus as much on, likeyou know, marketing metrics as
we do about.
Did I get out and do it?
Did I follow up with the person?
Did it result in any clients?
Did it result in?
You know, because I helpservice-based businesses, so
it's more about clients anddollars and that kind of thing.
Then, like you know, how manywidgets did I sell?
(11:00):
Product-based marketing is alittle bit different than
services.
So, yeah, I mean that's kind ofthe general framework for, like
, say, a marketing plan forsomebody who is really confused
Like I.
And the whole framework cameabout because I do a lot of
mentorship and coaching withfemale business owners through a
(11:21):
project called Accelerate Women.
It's a fund here in Oregon,that you know you can get
finance to help you scale.
And I kept hearing from allthese business owners like I
don't understand, like whyposting on social media is going
to help me with my business,and I kept getting the you know
or I don't understand email andhow that helps my business.
(11:41):
Like there was this hugedisconnect and so I had to
create the framework to say,okay, here's why these things
come together.
And then, like the light wentoff and I was like, well, I can
do an iteration of this, forregardless of how big an
organization is, it just dependson complexity, but the
framework is very similar.
Speaker 1 (12:02):
Okay.
So this is interesting becauseone of the pet peeves I have
with some of my clients is theythink they're going to hire me
as their marketing guy.
They're going to say, okay,I've got this widget, I've got
the services, sell, go, build mea website and then bring me
customers.
And it sounds like that youdon't think I have the power
just to make sales withoutinvolving my client at all.
(12:24):
Are you saying that's true?
Speaker 2 (12:27):
I'm saying that's true.
I'm sorry, mike, I don't know.
I mean, did you go to magicschool?
I didn't.
I didn't get to go to marketingmagic school where I could just
you know, if I build a website,they will come.
That's, it's too bad.
And I've had clients like thattoo I have you know that are
(12:47):
that are like we have thiswebsite.
Why aren't the people justcoming?
And I'm like, well, did youshare the website?
No, did you tell anybody youhave it?
No, what do you mean?
And I'm like, well, we talkedabout it.
Like you have to share it withpeople.
And they're like, oh, okay, butwhat about the SEO?
And I'm like, well, part of itis sharing it with other people
(13:11):
so they read it.
I mean, there is somedistribution that goes on.
We have these conversations too.
And, yeah, I mean I wish itcould be.
If you build it, they will comewith anything.
But we live in a world that isvery complex and has a lot going
on and people are busy, so wehave to remind them, not once or
(13:32):
twice, but a few times, aboutour offers and what it is that
we're doing.
Speaker 1 (13:36):
Right Nowadays, every single day, I think, it grows
exponentially the amount ofdistrust and skepticism.
And so, yeah, without thoseconsistent touches with your
audience, that trust andunderstanding isn't going to be
there.
Speaker 2 (13:57):
Absolutely, and in fact the number of touches is so
funny it's like exponentiallymore touches the longer I'm in
business work.
I think it used to be closer tolike three to five and now
they're like 10 to 100.
I'm like, oh my gosh, that's alot.
But it is because of the lowertrust.
The internet, as great as it is, has also amplified the voices
(14:23):
of people who are dishonest, notjust people who are honest, and
then it means that hardworkingbusiness owners have to work
even harder sometimes to gettheir voice above some of the
people who are nefarious anddon't have good intent.
Speaker 1 (14:41):
Yeah, because I've worked with some incredible
business, great people withgreat products, and I'm really
good at crafting a marketingmessage.
I've got the hook.
I've got the big differentiator.
I've identified all the falselearning beliefs.
The offer is killer.
With guarantees it's anabsolute no-brainer.
The sales aren't pouring inbecause people still don't trust
(15:04):
us.
I could write anything I wantI'm the king of Saïr on my
website.
It doesn't mean it's true, andso even the guarantees.
I see you got the guarantee,but will you honor it?
Who knows?
So, like I said, the peoplehave to feel like you're
something that would welcome tohave dinner at your table before
(15:24):
they'll buy from you.
Speaker 2 (15:25):
Now it seems like that's true, and so the
disconnect I think that peoplehave is I've set everything up.
It's like you're invitingpeople to have dinner with you
and nobody's coming and you'relike but I invited you, I've
invited you 17 times, Right,they're not coming.
(15:46):
And so part of it is that youhave to go a little bit deeper.
You have to be like well, thisis the best fork I could find.
I weighed it.
It feels perfect in your hand.
I've crafted this meal.
I spent so much time cookingyour favorite dishes and here's
why I think that's important toyou and you have to keep doing
(16:08):
it and doing it.
And then they have to decidewhether they want to have dinner
with you.
So it is like a very, a verylong conversation and yeah, I
mean it is harder because a lotof people I would say a lot of
people but there are a fairnumber of people who don't have
good intent and then they tendsometimes to drown out the
people who do, and thensometimes there are a lot of
(16:31):
people who are very empathetic,heart centered folks who they
don't want to intrude.
I get so many people who don'twant to send out an email or
they don't want to.
They're like I don't want tobother anybody.
And the thing is, if you don'tdo marketing, if you don't go
out and invite people in to whatit is that you're offering,
(16:52):
then you're just letting theother people win that maybe
don't have the best intent andthey're missing out on your
great product and they'remissing out on your copy because
they're not going to see it andthey're missing out on all of
that hard work you did to makeeverything exactly how you need
to.
Speaker 1 (17:10):
Right, one of my favorite pastimes not my
favorite, actually, I don'treally like it that much, but I
do it.
I like to go on to Facebookbecause I live off the grid, in
different things.
I'll see a picture of an offthe grid cabin with a leg.
It's like this is my dream homeand it's just a beautiful
picture.
Right, it's just a motivationalor inspirational picture.
(17:31):
I like to scroll through thecomments to start finding all
the negative ones, becausethere's people who can throw
stones at this beautiful like oh, I'd like to see how you do in
the winter with no driveway.
It's like you know, can't wejust accept that?
It's a nice picture and thisdream that we're never going to
do, but we could have dreamedabout it.
(17:51):
But no, there's the realtace.
Like, oh, I don't see any phonelines going into that.
Speaker 2 (17:56):
I was like come on, you know, and that's why people
get it's the trolls right,that's why people get so tight
about things like social mediaand stuff.
And it's so interesting becauseI had a troll on YouTube for a
while and it was like everysingle thing I posted on YouTube
and they're all like, hey,marketing is cool, like there
wasn't anything that I thought.
(18:17):
Anyway, that was like superlike, crazy, out of bounds
scammy, anything, you know, andit was just like thumbs down,
troll comment, you know, and itgot to where it was just comical
, like I was just like, oh wow,they have, they're so bored they
have nothing to do but wait formy new video to come up, you
know, and I think that that iswhat kind of helped me just be
(18:39):
like there's always going to besomebody, you know, and I knew
that from managing people.
But like out in the other, youknow, there are those trolls
under a bridge who are justgoing to throw a rock through
any window they can find.
And we have to keep goinganyway, and you have to find a
way to kind of laugh at it,which for me, in that case, was
dude.
Talk about someone who's bored,like I was waiting for my
(19:03):
YouTube video so they can make acomment, and but it's hard,
right, like you have to buildthat online armor a little bit
if you're going to be out in thepublic eye and doing things,
because there's always going tobe somebody.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:16):
Because unless you write or present something
totally over the top amazing,it's pretty tough to get
positive love from strangers,right.
Right, there will be a lot ofpeople that do really like it,
but they're not going to extendthemselves and write anything.
And so there's a whole bunch ofpeople that are seeing your
stuff and they're loving yourstuff.
They're not going to be sovocal about it, but you got Joe
(19:37):
Troll there who has never missedan episode, watches your entire
20 minute education onmarketing just so he can zing
you at the end.
It's like whoa dude.
Speaker 2 (19:46):
Yeah, thumbs down, brah, thanks.
Yeah.
Yeah, peace out, yeah, and it'sso funny too, because I didn't
even think they were watching it, I think it was just oh,
there's Jen, no, so it's just aninteresting thing.
And you're right, I get thatpeople see stuff and they don't
say anything.
(20:09):
So what we fill the void withand I think that you find this a
lot in working around empathy,because I know that I certainly
find it is in that void webombard ourselves sometimes with
all the negative things aroundwhat it means when it's just
like somebody saw it, they lovedit and they moved on with their
life, and we're like, oh God,it must have just been so
(20:30):
terrible.
I better go back and work on it, I better refine it, I better
take it down, I'm not going toput anything up for a while.
We fill ourselves with all ofthis negativity instead of just
saying, oh, keep going.
Yeah, but it takes a while tobuild up that resiliency, at
least it seems in the folks thatI work with and I would share
(20:54):
with my own stuff too.
It's a lot different when youwork I did in a big organization
all this infrastructure andeverything, and then the
infrastructure is gone.
It's a lot different out herein the wild west.
Speaker 1 (21:07):
Yeah, and you probably experience the same
thing if you're posting theYouTube regularly, Like a lot of
first times I meet with acustomer first time, first time
I'm on a discovery call withthem.
They're quoting my videos andthey're saying, like well, I've
been following you for months, Ifinally got ready to reach out
and contact you.
But that's what your audiencehas to.
(21:28):
Your clients have to remember.
It's like there are peoplepositively stalking you.
Yeah, yeah, they're checking meout.
Speaker 2 (21:35):
Yeah, you know every you know.
If you think that you're comingin off the street and they
don't know anything about you,you're wrong.
I mean the statistics and myfirst hand knowledge, your first
hand knowledge.
They just really reinforce thefact that they're looking at
reviews.
They're looking at your publicprofiles there.
If you have videos, they'rewatching them.
They want to know if they likeyou.
(21:56):
They want to know if it'smaking sense or not, because
when you hire a marketing personor anybody for your business,
it's an investment.
Right, am I going to investtime with this person?
You know, and that's the thingyou know people don't
necessarily think of marketingas the long game and they run
out of patience a lot.
And what I really try toreinforce with my clients and
(22:20):
out in my writing and my videosis like the worst thing you can
do is just give up.
You have to keep at it for awhile and give it a chance
before you know really what'sworking and what's not working
and what it is that you need todo.
Speaker 1 (22:37):
Yeah, I just onboarded a client this morning
actually, and she's an amazingtax accountant in California and
she goes beyond that and shewants to offer a high ticket
coaching offer where bookkeepingand tax returns are included.
But she sent me her most recentblog posts from 2020 and I was
(22:58):
like, okay, I can help you withthis, but we're not going to
make any sales in the next monthor two months Because, like,
you're just letting.
Well, just, you know, you'rejust an accountant right now and
to go to a high ticket coaching, they've got to stalk you and
we don't really have anythingrecent to be stalked and so
you've got to put in that time.
(23:19):
Luckily, she's superintelligent when we say, oh,
she's disappointed because shewanted to make a sale like the
day after hiring me.
But when I explained to her,you know the work that's
involved, she's like yeah, no,that you know, I get it.
Speaker 2 (23:32):
I get it Tracks.
That makes sense.
Yeah, yeah, you know, andthat's the thing you know.
There are a lot of people whodon't want to make content, you
know, and it's kind of hardsometimes if you know, without
that, you know you're providingpeople with fodder for, like,
making a decision.
You know, with every piece ofcontent that you create, and so
(23:54):
I'm always trying to worm my wayinto like, well, what about
this?
You said you didn't want towrite blogs, but where did you
make a video?
Okay, you won't make a video,but like, what about?
Like an email?
Like, will you do that?
Speaker 1 (24:05):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:06):
Like I'm always trying to figure out like what's
the soft spot.
You know it's like because whenpeople are so adamant about not
wanting to create content, thenthey don't understand how many
you know.
Other windows kind of close atthat point in terms of what it
is that you can do and we haveto keep kind of exploring like
how we're going to get the wordout.
(24:27):
You know, because the thing islike we can talk about like
earlier I mentioned things likenetworking and stuff, but at a
certain point you know the wordof mouth and networking you're
not going to be able to likescale at that point.
You know you can alwaysreinforce things and do things,
but when you're trying to getout in the public eye and do and
(24:48):
have like high ticket items andhave people coming in, like
sometimes you've got to stepinto the limelight and you've
got to blog more often thanevery three years or four years,
like the blog from 2020, youknow, when I stumble upon
websites that have a blog fromthree or four years ago, I'm
like are they still around?
Yeah, Are they just paying for?
Speaker 1 (25:10):
this website.
Yeah Well, that's what gears,because it's my understanding
that you once wrote quite thecontroversial blog post yourself
.
Yes, I did.
Tell a little bit about that inthe.
Let's call it the fallout, thefallout.
Speaker 2 (25:25):
You know it's so interesting so I think I wrote
it.
You know, I always kind of lookback.
I think I wrote it in like 2019, 2018.
I wrote a blog post aboutClickFunnels.
That was.
You know, reasons why youshould or shouldn't use
ClickFunnels and what to doinstead.
And the thing about it is, ifyou've ever I'm sure most people
(25:48):
have heard of ClickFunnels,most people have heard of
Russell Brunson.
They've done all of the thingsIf you ever look up ClickFunnels
reviews, almost every singleClickFunnels review is like you
need to buy ClickFunnels.
Here's my affiliate link, youknow.
And so one of the things thatmade what I wrote so different
was that I was like well, youknow, a no affiliate links.
(26:09):
B I'm not an active customer.
C I'm somebody who's supportedother people who've had
ClickFunnels.
So I've written.
I wrote about like who it worksfor, who it doesn't work for,
about the FOMO that it createsand that whole excitement around
getting somebody to buy a newproduct.
And then the aftermath of likea product that maybe doesn't
(26:30):
always perform the way itpromises the people who are
marketed to about it that can'tgenerally afford that kind of
product, maybe their businessisn't ready yet for like a sales
funnel and a whole online likesales, a whole online
marketplace, basically createdthrough ClickFunnels because
it's a little bit more advancedof a product really for like who
(26:55):
it's marketed to, which are,like they, at home moms who want
to sell printables or somethinglike that.
That's who they market to andthen, but the people who are
really successful with it have abig audience and a team and are
really well-developedsalespeople.
So I wrote about all of that.
It was very cathartic, feltvery good because I work a lot
(27:17):
on SEO.
I SEOed the heck out of it andhere we are like five years
later.
I keep updating it and doingthe work and under ClickFunnels
reviews, I'm like rank numbertwo.
I get unbelievable traffic fromit and I was in a documentary
as the person like sitting onthe couch in the basement saying
(27:37):
no, yeah, you don't need allthat.
Yeah, no, nabra, it's not thatimportant.
Well, they're like interviewingall these high flyers and so I
really hope it comes out.
You know it's called Click theLink Below and you never know
with the documentary if it'sgoing to actually make it to
theaters or not.
(27:57):
It was such an interestingexperience because I was like we
always tell our clients writesomething controversial, go out
on a limb and talk about thethings you're passionate about.
And then I did it, and then allthis stuff happened and I'm
like, see, and I can tell myclients Because they had a it
was a Swedish, a couple ofSwedish men who were making this
(28:20):
film, and they were likezooming me in and they hired,
like this local, like Emmywinning cameraman, and like
there's somebody in my houseright now doing like
professional lighting andmic'ing me to talk about
ClickFunnels.
Like this is the weirdest thingI've ever heard, you know, and
I have so many clients andpeople who talk about things
(28:41):
that are far more interestingthan this.
And here I am and so I'm kindof like you can write about
anything and you have no idea,like what kind of attention you
could get, and so it's really agood lesson in going out on a
limb and talking about thethings that you care about, and
even if it's different, you know, I've never really gotten a lot
(29:01):
of.
You know, nobody's ever givenme low back.
I've had employees, formeremployees from ClickFunnels,
saying, well, you're not wrong,I've gotten messages and stuff,
and you know, and it's just kindof I'm surprised you gave it
two stars.
So, like you know, so it's justkind of an interesting
experience and it's a it was aninteresting experiment, you know
(29:24):
, and kind of how you cangenerate a lot of interest and
excitement by being differentand sharing an experience that
runs counter to, you know, allof the you know programming out
there.
So, yeah, I did that.
It was a thing Very cool ithelps to be a good writer.
(29:46):
I will say that Definitely.
Speaker 1 (29:52):
So that's one type of marketing and I call Russell
with love a hopeium dealer, likehe just deals in hope, right,
and it's so addictive and he'snot the only one who does it
Like we're all getting hit byFrank Kern and his stuff.
I don't remember, like lastyear he had this big offer of
how he generated whatever like$7,412 and a single day with
(30:14):
zero ad spend.
Let me show you how to how youdo it.
Well, first, you just need, youknow, 1.7 million followers.
If you got 1.7 millionfollowers and a decent offer,
you can make that sort of money.
But all these guys are like,look, how easy it was for me,
you can do it too.
And I'm not taking anythingaway from Frank Kern because
(30:37):
it's easy for him now, right,but he did the work then.
Exactly, there's a reason he has1.7 million followers right and
he can throw an offer and makethe money.
But so many of these hopeiumdealers kind of skip that part
just to the like.
You know, I sent out an emailand made $7,000.
Who wants to see the email?
Like, yeah, I've got like sevenpeople I can send that email to
(30:58):
.
I hope I can make some decentmoney.
Speaker 2 (31:01):
My mom's in the market, Like, yeah, I mean it's,
you know, it's just, and it'sfunny and it's sad because what
happens then is people startlike using these tactics on
people they know and they canalienate themselves if they
don't know what it is thatthey're doing.
And I've never heard the termhopeium dealer, but yeah, I mean
(31:23):
that's.
Yeah, it's a lot of FOMO.
You feel like you're going tobe part of this big community
and it's going to be so great.
You're going to make all ofthis money.
And it's hard for somebody likeme who comes in and like kind
of throws water on the fire,because I'm like, well, all of
that is true and there's allthis infrastructure that has to
(31:43):
be in place in order for that tobecome the reality.
And so what I, what I reallywant for people is to scale
responsibly, and that's what alot of my offers are about,
because I have a reallytechnical background.
So a lot, of, a lot of times,we're looking at the processes
that are broken and positioningthem for growth so that they can
(32:07):
do it.
You know, because what happensis they invest in something like
a click funnels and then offersit.
It's like offer island, likenothing, talks to anything else
and things take longer than theythink it should.
There are so many stops andkinks in the hose in the process
that you know reducing costs,streamlining, so you offer like
(32:27):
a really like solid goldonboarding process and
everything like that.
These things are what helps yougrow an audience, like because
everybody has a good experience,they tell their friends and
then, after some of those things, then you can think about like
a click funnels or some of thesome of the Hopium dealers might
be, it might you might be timefor some of the.
(32:48):
The other thing I tell people islike it's cool that you watch
Gary Vaynerchuk, but if youreally want to know about the
hard work it took for him to getthere, go to the very beginning
of of Wine Library.
You know, I know, see, evenyour dog agrees.
See, I have the same problem atmy house.
(33:13):
Man Can never bring a dog, aball and two dogs in the house.
Speaker 1 (33:17):
Yeah, this is.
They've got a thousand toys andthere's this one orange ball.
That is the much coveted musthave ball.
Speaker 2 (33:24):
We have one of those.
We try to hide it and theyalways find it.
Speaker 1 (33:29):
See if they're calling, but yeah, I mean it's,
it's just really hard.
Speaker 2 (33:32):
You know it's hard for people to navigate all of it
.
And they see the Frank Kearnsand the Gary Vaynerchuk and they
see all these people afterthey've done all of this
practice and they've gonethrough the hard part and they
didn't when they didn't haveanybody.
And then they see it now andthey're like well, I want that,
but I don't know.
I don't know if you everwatched the TV show Seinfeld,
but it's kind of like yada, yadayada, I'm a millionaire like,
(33:55):
and it's kind of like well, yeah, but each yada is pretty
important.
Yeah, yeah that's where you getthere.
Speaker 1 (34:01):
That's a good one.
Yeah, it's funny.
I'm in one of the funnelbuilding groups not click
funnels, let's call it XYZfunnels and I was following your
, your, your advice and likegetting content out there, and I
was posting in that group youknow quite regularly about the
strategy, about the messaging,and one of the admins asked me
(34:21):
not to post so much about thatstuff because it wasn't about
XYZ funnels.
I'm like because they justwanted like how do you automate
an email system?
How do you make the font blue?
How do you?
I was like none of that stuffmatters.
Yeah, if you don't have themessage like well, you know, I
kind of understand, but wereally always want to keep our
(34:41):
platform about, you know, thefunnels.
Yeah, and that's one of thebiggest things is everybody
thinks that the funnel is goingto do the work and it's just a
delivery system.
Speaker 2 (34:52):
Yeah, yeah, cause they asked.
They asked me in thedocumentary like what's the
definition of a of sales funnel?
I was like it's a sales process.
Speaker 1 (35:00):
Right.
Speaker 2 (35:01):
And then there was like all this silence, because I
think they expected like somebig, dedicated thing and like
it's your online sales process.
Speaker 1 (35:09):
Yeah, Cause like and it only works yeah.
Like we got to like yeah, Iknow, you know we make fun of
Russell and stuff, but we, weboth give them huge props and
credit.
Speaker 2 (35:20):
Huge props yeah.
Speaker 1 (35:21):
Yeah, and cause he was the one who said websites
are dead.
Right, that was.
That was mind blowing.
What do you mean?
Websites are dead, you don'tneed a website, you need a sales
funnel.
So, with his definition, it's,you know, it's a one problem,
one solution and website,whereas the reality is what
you're saying is a funnel startsfrom your organic posts.
It starts from, you know,talking to somebody on the
(35:43):
street and it ends, you know,maybe a couple of weeks, months
later, with a phone call and theand the close.
It's not those, you know, threelanding pages in the middle.
Speaker 2 (35:54):
See, and it's not, and it's not.
I'm not throwing shade atRussell Brunson.
He's fabulous, he's brilliant,Like that.
That's not the point.
The point is that you can't addany technology, whether it's
XYZ funnels, click funnels,WordPress, whatever.
You can't do that unless youknow what you're doing and what
(36:15):
works, because that's what makeswhat makes click funnels work
is the magic of knowing whatyour people want and how to
deliver it in the online space.
And you do that throughmessaging, you do that through,
like, touch points and ads andall the different things that
you have to do to make thefunnel go.
You're right, it's not about ifthe button is orange or not.
(36:36):
You know, and honestly, ittruly doesn't matter how pretty
the funnel is either.
It's really like do peopleunderstand what I'm trying to do
here?
Is it a reflection of who I am?
Is it a reflection of my salesprocess?
And if you can check all theboxes and people know, like and
trust you, then it's going towork Exactly.
But nobody wants to hear allthat.
(36:56):
They want the magic software.
The magic software.
It's like the magic beans, youknow.
Speaker 1 (37:02):
I think I got my hand slap for being negative before
too, because somebody wastalking about you know all this
tech behind their coaching thingthat they're going to offer.
And somehow I got I'm like,have you sold any yet?
Like, oh, no, it's not built.
I'm like you don't have tobuild it.
I'm like does anybody want tobuy it?
Have you pre-sold it at onetenth of a cost?
Like, no, I'm going to waituntil it's built, because people
(37:25):
, it's so much fun to buildstuff like click funnels or
whatever.
Oh, yeah, they're building.
They have this huge thing andwith all the buttons and the
bells and the whistles and youcan track how much videos they
watch and all this stuff.
But then it's the ugly part ofhaving to sell it.
And so people again, it's abuild it.
They think, oh, I'll just buildit and then they'll sell.
And I'm a big believer in yougot to whatever you're, I don't
(37:47):
care what it is, you got topre-sell a couple of them.
Like, just just, I don't, Idon't give yourself for a dollar
.
Just like, will somebody buy it?
Speaker 2 (37:56):
Yeah, you know, I mean it's and it's hard right.
You know, I mean I have acommunity, an online community.
I have people in there and andthey're I'm like I keep saying
we got to get out of tweak mode.
It's about doing it.
I'm giving you things that youcan be doing, but it's still
about prioritizing and executingand doing it.
(38:20):
You can't just be build, build,build.
It's got to be pre-sale release.
You have to go through a wholelaunch cycle if you're going to
do that, because, yeah, you'reright, it's fun to build.
I took myself off of WordPress.
As somebody who develops andworks in WordPress, I was like I
don't need to be tweaking myown website all the time.
(38:41):
I need to be talking to morepeople.
The answer is sometimes youhave to take some of that stuff
out of your own hands.
You make it less fun foryourself to tweak everything so
that then you can get more inthe execution mode.
Speaker 1 (38:59):
I know Russell a little bit personally and he's a
bit of a perfectionist.
The stuff he puts out has a lotof thought behind it.
Do you think Frank Kern hasever put out anything even close
to perfect?
Like Kern will just be sleepingin bed.
He's like I got an idea.
He gets on his phone and hesells it.
He's figuring out what he'stalking about as he's going.
(39:23):
He had no idea when he startedthe live what he was going to
talk about.
He just offer, offer, offerafter offer.
He just waits and most of themfail.
Something clicks.
He's like oh, who knew thatwould click.
Then he gets his team to startpushing that one thing.
But he sells everything beforehe makes it.
Speaker 2 (39:43):
Yeah, no, yeah.
You have to do that, otherwiseyou're just in constant
development mode.
That's the whole philosophyaround.
Fail fast, you just put it outthere, just keep putting it out
there.
Then if it's not going to work,then you have to abandon it.
The problem is a lot of peopleget too attached.
(40:04):
I've done that before too.
I think everybody's done that.
You get too attached to theidea and you don't want to
pre-sell it, because what ifpeople don't like it?
It's like well, yeah, becausethat means you need to come up
with another thing.
Speaker 1 (40:17):
You said you got to get past the trolls.
That's not hard to do.
How do you get past?
I said not hard to do.
I said that's not easy to do toget past the trolls.
Then you've got failure.
Failing is hard.
You've got your baby.
You put it out there.
Everybody says, oh, your baby'sugly.
How do you get past that?
Speaker 2 (40:37):
Yeah, everybody's different.
How you get through that ispretty personal.
I think it's a lot easier themore that you know about your
ideal customers.
What happens a lot, I think,from what I've seen among
clients and other people, isthey haven't necessarily done
enough of the work beforehand.
(40:57):
They get pretty frustrated thenwhen things don't go as they
expect.
There shouldn't be a ton ofsurprises on, especially like a
high ticket offer.
That means that you've donesome things beforehand that lead
up to it.
Hopefully You're not justbuilding toward this offer
without testing it.
(41:17):
People don't realize how muchof marketing is a test.
What Frank Kern is doing istesting.
He's just like I'm going tothrow this offer out there.
If it works, we're going tomake it, if it doesn't, well.
Speaker 1 (41:30):
I'll throw it with something else.
Speaker 2 (41:32):
That's the thing.
A lot of people get tooattached to that first idea, not
knowing that there's otherideas behind it.
There's other things that cancome.
I don't really have thatproblem because I have about
1,000 ideas a day.
I acknowledge that noteverybody's like that and it can
be agonizing to feel thatfailure because the conversation
(41:58):
around success is so much aboutall the good parts.
We don't really focus on thefact that you have to fail in
order to succeed.
I can't think of any time in mylife where I succeeded without
some sort of failure before it.
It's just that we don't talkabout that.
We're conditioned to not talkabout that.
Speaker 1 (42:21):
Success after failure is so much more valuable
because if you succeed after youfail, you know what caused the
success.
If you succeed out of the box,people are like what did you do,
I don't know?
It was funny.
I was watching Jimmy Fallonwith Keith Richards and he had
an acoustic guitar and he'splaying Jumping Jack Flash.
(42:42):
Oh my God, wow, that justsounded amazing.
Jimmy Fallon asked KeithRichards how did you do that?
How did you make that dollarstore acoustic guitar sound like
an electric guitar?
Keith's like I don't know.
He's like I know I can do it.
I just don't know how I can doit.
Nobody else could have pickedup that guitar and made it sound
(43:05):
the way Keith Richards did.
And he doesn't know how he doesit.
He doesn't purposely do it,it's just what flows out of him.
So when something just flowsout of you like that, it's hard
to reproduce.
Keith can't teach me to playlike he can because he doesn't
know.
He doesn't know how.
Right.
And had Keith work to developthat sound, then he could teach
other people.
Speaker 2 (43:27):
Yeah, I mean, there is something to genius, right In
some ways.
Michael Jordan can't teachpeople how to play basketball
like him, keith Richards can'tteach people how to play guitar
like him, to an extent maybeeven like Russell Brunson and
Frank Kern, and some peoplecan't teach you exactly how to
(43:49):
do it.
Some of that stuff has to bewithin yourself and you have to
be willing to face the failure amillion times.
If you think about a musicianor a basketball player I can't
remember the stats now onMichael Jordan but you think of
him as the person that you wantto take the last shot.
He missed a lot of last shotsRight, he missed more than he
(44:13):
made, but we remember the onesthat he made because they were
in the biggest moments.
But there's a lot of shots thatwe miss, but the thing is you
still have to take the shot.
That's right.
That's the thing that I want toencourage people most of all is
take your shots and then takeyour lumps if it works or not.
Speaker 1 (44:37):
So I think this is it .
So I'd like to close theinterview with what is one thing
that somebody can implementtoday to move the needle, and I
think you might have been sayingit right there, so let's just
reiterate that.
Speaker 2 (44:51):
Take your shots, get out there and do it.
You have to start taking action.
That isn't in the planningphases, it isn't in the I'm
going to build the thing.
You have to start talking aboutthings publicly.
You have to start sharing youroffers, sharing your deals and
getting it out there.
I can't hear you.
(45:20):
You coughed on, you coughed on,I did it backwards, you did it
backwards.
Speaker 1 (45:26):
For those of you listening and not watching I
unmuted when I started coughingand then I muted when I was done
coughing, so let's start againyou don't want me to cough
through it, or you don't want tocough through it.
Wow, damn it, all right.
So, jen, I think you're, sowe'll just start back with the
(45:50):
one take, with I'll edit thatcoughing spasm out, because
that's where I cough through.
So, jen, I think you've alreadyjust sort of said this, but I
like to end each interview withone thing that you can do right
away to start moving the needle.
I think you've kind of said itwith taking the shots.
Just want to reiterate that forus.
Speaker 2 (46:08):
Yeah.
So remember at the verybeginning when I said marketing
is getting the word out aboutthe things that you care about,
and then you do it over and overand over again and you have to
take those shots.
You have to get out there, youhave to do something to talk
about what it is that you'reoffering, and then you have to
practice enough on that that youfind the thing that you like to
(46:29):
do and that you're willing tofail at and do it.
You have to get out of thisspace of when it's perfect, I'm
going to do it, or when it's allbuilt, I'm going to do it.
Those start to become excuses.
They're not always excuses inthe beginning, but at the end it
becomes more of a barrier.
So what we want to do is breakthrough those barriers, start
(46:51):
taking a few risks so that wecan start to see the rewards,
because you'll never get thereunless you start getting out
there.
Speaker 1 (46:59):
Very cool.
So if people wanted to learnmore about you or ways that you
could help them, do you haveanything for my listening
audience, for your listeningaudience?
Speaker 2 (47:13):
If you go to womenconquerbizcom, I have a few
classes there that are freethat you can get into how to get
5% more leads from your Googlebusiness profile, which is,
believe it or not, a really bigthing that you can do, oh my
gosh.
Speaker 1 (47:33):
So I just want to touch on that for a second 5%.
I want 500%.
Jen, why are you saying 5%?
Why can't I get 500%?
Speaker 2 (47:42):
Well, you can, because if you're not getting
any leads at all, then you canget 500%.
It's because I'm honest, I'mnot going to tell you you're
going to get 500% more leads.
Statistically, people can get5% more leads from a good,
well-written Google businessprofile.
Speaker 1 (48:03):
Okay, and that's so.
I, you know I was beingtongue-in-cheek there because
that's something else like and Idon't know why I don't usually
talk about Frank Kern this much,but Frank did some.
He was showing his ad agencyand he was saying, yeah, he's
got a few different ad agenciesand one of them was consistently
getting him $2 for every dollarhe spent.
I guess he'd forgotten aboutthem.
(48:23):
He's like oh, I went into thisaccount and they're getting me
like $2 for every dollar.
And he's just so excited aboutthat.
And because that's the reality,like so many of the big the
Hopium dealers are like you know100 times your thing, right?
Or you can make all this moneywith no ad spend.
And it's just so nice to hearsomebody like be open and say
(48:44):
you know what?
I can get you 5%, because 5% isawesome, especially if it's,
you know, compounded, daily sortof thing, right?
Speaker 2 (48:51):
Yeah, I mean, that's the thing you know and so, yeah,
I guess it's not like hotmarketing copy, but it's the
honest, the honest marketingcopy of you know, hey, if you're
not getting anything from it,if you wrote it once and forgot
about it, hey, let's justremember that and make this part
of our workflow and you mightsee 5% bump or maybe more.
Speaker 1 (49:12):
Right, so very cool.
Yeah.
Well, jen, again, it was greathaving you as a guest.
I love, like my individuals.
I loved your honesty.
I loved your.
You don't have any Hopium todeal to us.
I love that.
It was great chatting with you.
Thanks, yeah.
Speaker 2 (49:27):
Thanks, it was great meeting you and, yeah, just glad
to be here.
Thanks a lot.
Speaker 1 (49:32):
All right, thanks.
And that is a wrap for thisepisode of Because Business is
Personal.
Thanks for joining us and don'tforget to take advantage of my
two special offers.
First, you can get a free copyof my bestselling book, empathic
Marketing.
You just pay for the shipping.
Or you can have 50% discount onmy Gap Analysis session with
(49:55):
the coupon code.
Podcast.
Let's head over towwwBecauseBusinessIsPersonalcom
or check the show notes fordetails.
If you've enjoyed today'sepisode, please don't forget to
follow, subscribe, leave areview and share the podcast
with others who might benefit.
Your support means the world tous, so stay tuned for our next
(50:19):
episode, where we'll continue todelve into the intersection of
empathy and marketing strategy.
Remember, because Business isIndeed Personal, every
connection counts.
Until next time.
See you then.
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