August 16, 2023 • 54 mins
Join us for a journey into empathic marketing with our special guest Jason Berkowitz, the founder and SEO director of Break the Web. With his decade-long expertise in the digital world, Jason's insights promise to provide a fresh perspective on how to grow your business online. This conversation is not just about SEO and advertising strategies, it's about the significance of empathy in marketing and Jason's love for dogs which reminds us of the importance of companionship and comfort in our lives.
Our episode takes you through Jason's transition from traditional marketing to entrepreneurship and the birth of Break the Web. You'll be inspired by his battles with imposter syndrome and his continuous evolution in the marketing field. We unravel the intricacies of SEO strategy and how a niche audience plays a pivotal role in your business growth. Jason also shares his invaluable knowledge on long tail keywords, SEO-driven content marketing strategy, and ways to organically boost your website traffic.
We then dive into the challenges and strategies of SEO campaigns, discussing what can make or break your campaign. Discover the unique differences between SEO and other forms of marketing and how a good brand name and reputation can be beneficial to SEO. As we move ahead, we delve into the applications and limitations of Artificial Intelligence in our daily tasks and content creation, while also touching upon the potential legal liabilities of AI-generated content. Jason's fascinating experience with chatbots and how to understand website authority adds an extra layer of intrigue to the discussion. So, don't wait, indulge in this enlightening conversation and give your marketing strategy a supercharge today!
Eager to harness the power of Empathic Marketing to propel your business growth? Get your hands on my #1 Amazon Best Selling book, 'Empathic Marketing,' or book a '30-Minute Gap Analysis' session directly from my website: www.becausebusinessispersonal.com.
Discover a wealth of knowledge in our podcast archives at www.becausebusinessispersonal.com.
Stay connected and follow me on social media for more insights and updates:
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey, welcome to the Because Business is Personal
podcast, the podcast whereempathy meets marketing strategy
.
I'm your host, mike Caldwell,but I'm also known as the
marketing medic.
Now, the reason for that isbecause, before becoming a
marketing strategist, I actuallyworked as a paramedic for 12
years, and it was during thattime that I realized how
(00:20):
important it was to trulyunderstand the problems your
patient was facing before youstarted providing treatment.
And it's this sameunderstanding, the same empathy,
is just as crucial when itcomes to understanding our
prospects and making sales, andthat's why, in each episode,
we'll dissect the art ofempathic marketing, exploring
(00:42):
how top professionals infuseempathy into their strategies to
build stronger relationships,boost their sales and make a
lasting impact.
So buckle up and prepare toturn up the dial on your
marketing effectiveness.
As we gear up to dive deeperinto the realm of empathic
marketing, I'd like to share acouple of special offers with
(01:03):
you.
First, you can get a free copyof my international bestselling
book Empathic Marketing.
You only need to cover the costof shipping.
Reading this will provide youwith a much more in-depth
understanding of theempathy-based marketing approach
that we explore in this show.
Next, I'm offering a 50%discount on a transformative
(01:23):
30-minute gap analysis sessionwith me.
Reading this session willidentify the hurdles in your
marketing efforts and togetherwill develop an actionable
roadmap aimed at winning youmore clients and making you more
sales.
Just visit my website,wwwbecausebusinessispersonalcom
(01:44):
to grab your book or use couponcode podcast to take advantage
of my gap analysis offer.
So why wait?
Let's start turbocharging yourmarketing strategy today.
Now let's get started with ourepisode.
All right, hey, everyone.
Welcome back to another episodeof Because Business Personal.
I'm thrilled to have JasonBerkowitz, the founder and SEO
(02:09):
director of Break the Web, withus today.
With over a decade ofexperience in the world of
search engine optimization andpaid advertising, jason has been
instrumental in helpingbusinesses achieve remarkable
growth by demystifying organicgrowth strategies.
As a true advocate ofaccessibility, transparency and
(02:29):
meaningful results, jason'sexpertise aligns perfectly with
our empathic approach tobusiness.
So join us as we delve into hisjourney and uncover valuable
insights into building asuccessful online presence that
truly connects with customers.
Speaker 2 (02:45):
So welcome Jason.
Oh, thank you so much forhaving me, mike.
That was awesome.
I appreciate that intro.
Speaker 1 (02:53):
I did my research, man.
I know all about you, not allabout you.
I don't know much personalabout you.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
Social security nerd.
Yeah, talk about personal yeah.
Speaker 1 (03:06):
Because business is personal.
The way I like to start eachpodcast is to learn something a
little bit more personal aboutyou, something quirky, something
interesting to our listeners,that's non-business related, and
I know what I want to hear fromyou.
So if you don't give me thatanswer, then I'll get you to
change.
So what do you got for us?
Speaker 2 (03:22):
Oh man, I feel like there's a million things.
Speaker 1 (03:26):
I love Puppies.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
I love.
Puppies, she's actually snoringright through my desk.
So if you hear some weird noise, I mean puppy related, yeah, we
have a cleft lip, a cockapoo.
She's got like a little weird,weird lip and a little rescue.
So she has weird sleepy soundsbecause an extra hole, I guess,
in her face.
(03:48):
Yeah, she's a cute little one.
I would wake her up and showyou, but she's asleep.
Speaker 1 (03:54):
No, no, no, she's about a year and a half.
Let her sleep, let her sleep,let her get that beaty rest.
So what makes you like dogs somuch?
Speaker 2 (04:04):
No matter what you're going through, no matter how
your day is going, they'realways chipper and happy and
makes you smile.
You get home and again doesn'treally matter what's going on in
your life.
You always got like a friendlyface.
They call it man's best friendfor a reason a friendly face,
smiling, you want to give youlove and they're fluffy and
they're fluffy and they're coolto cuddle with.
(04:24):
I understand you've got a fewdogs yourself, right?
Actually, I see in thebackground we have five rescues.
Speaker 1 (04:31):
Yeah, if you're on the video, then you can see.
That's the puppy, that's anAustralian shepherd, Pico, and
then there's a basset hound, abasset hound and a Labradorian
right there.
Oh, then Fred's under the desk.
The border call, we're goingbuddies.
Yeah, buddy's over.
(04:51):
Oh, you can't see him.
We actually.
So we had two leather sofas andwe had to get a third, even
though there's just my wife andI.
But the way it works is I watchTV while my wife's making
dinner and sounds verypatriarchal, but that's the way
it is.
She'd make my dinner and bringme my dinner because I'm the man
(05:13):
, and then she'd have her place.
She's like I have nowhere tosit because I'm one part of the
couch, the dogs be on the othertwo, just so.
We actually had to get anothersofa, just so my wife could have
dinner with us.
Speaker 2 (05:28):
I love that you get in and dogs get priority right
On the couch.
They do, they do indeed.
Speaker 1 (05:34):
So tell me a little bit about the skydiving and then
we'll get into some businessstuff.
Speaker 2 (05:39):
Yeah, I mean.
Very similar actually to why Ilove dogs.
Oh, just a sec, I forgot a joke.
Speaker 1 (05:45):
I forgot a joke.
Yeah, the dog joke.
Yeah, so it's always funny.
So again I'm going back topatriarchal thing.
But you know, lock your wife inthe trunk of your car for an
hour and lock your dog in thetrunk of the car for an hour,
and who's happy to see you whenyou open the truck?
That's just dogs, man, they'rejust always.
(06:08):
They're not mad at you for whatyou did.
They don't judge you, they justlove you for who you are.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (06:12):
They're good.
They live simple, awesome lives.
You know, they just chill out,lay down in the sun, run after a
ball.
Yeah, yeah, pretty chill.
I mean I would come back as adog.
Yeah, I know we can learn a lotfrom our doggy friends for sure
.
Speaker 1 (06:25):
But anyway, okay, so sorry interrupt.
Let's go back to the skydiving.
Speaker 2 (06:29):
Oh.
So I mean skydiving is prettysimilar where, no matter where
you're going through in lifeoutside of the, you know it's,
of course, really adventurousand kind of out there as a sport
, but you're kind of in themoment, which is nice.
It's like a mental vacationwhere you kind of have to be in
the moment, which is cool andexciting.
Everything else going on inlife can be put on a temporary
(06:50):
pause and you're with thosefriends, have a great time,
laughs, and even the communityis pretty awesome.
No matter what status you arein life, income, occupation,
whatever it is all gets put awaybecause everyone there is just
skydivers.
Speaker 1 (07:05):
So skyd?
I know nothing about skydiving.
I bungee jumped with people saya scarier than skydiving by,
just I'm afraid of heights.
I was a helicopter paramedicbut I'm afraid of heights, but
so I don't know anything aboutskydiving.
Is that something you can getbetter at?
Or like, is what you do whatyou do?
Speaker 2 (07:22):
or yeah, you mostly suck when you get started.
Yeah, I mean, you mostly suckwhen you get started.
You had to learn how to controlyour body in the air, how to
maneuver, how to go left rightforward, back, slow down, speed
up, and especially if you're ina group, you don't want to just
tumble over people and that canbe bad.
So usually when you first getlicensed you're probably pretty
(07:46):
bad.
Everyone likes to think they'regood because they already can
do something really awesome.
But even after a couple hundredjumps you're still, for the
most part, learning somethingnew.
Speaker 1 (07:55):
Okay, so the cool part is like the actual flying
around like before the shootopens.
Speaker 2 (07:59):
So am I right?
Some people like it differently.
Some people enjoy the canopytime or underneath the parachute
a little bit more.
Some people like the free fall.
Okay, I enjoy both, actuallyalmost as equally where it's
calm, quiet, serene under thecanopy, but also the thrill,
excitement and going 150 milesan hour through the sky.
That's exciting in its own way.
(08:20):
So some people enjoy differentparts.
Some people will even pulltheir parachute much higher so
they can have more timeunderneath the canopy.
So that's it.
Speaker 1 (08:32):
Okay, all right, so let's get into some more
business related stuff.
So you're the founder and SEOdirector of Break the Web, so
how long have you been doingthat?
Speaker 2 (08:44):
Break the Web as a legal entity started about 2017.
I've been doing SEO since about2010.
So I think 13 years at thispoint.
But we went under a differentcompany name at the time and I
also kind of want to rebrand andrestructure everything from the
ground up, so kind of creatingnew light, and our old company
(09:07):
name kind of sucked.
It was hyper web marketing,which is stupid.
It's not even brandable, I meannonsense.
So that came in 2017restructuring and things and
trying to build out a moreefficient agency.
Speaker 1 (09:23):
Okay, actually I want to talk about that just a
little bit.
So my first, when I was doingmarketing for others, I was a
CastNet marketing and CAST stoodfor something and you know it's
CastNet and I had this logo andlook at back, it was so garbage
.
Now I'm the marketing medicwith empathic marketing like two
(09:47):
much more powerful statements.
So what gave you?
The epiphany that your firstname was no good and break the
web.
Man Like that says something.
Speaker 2 (09:57):
Yeah, I mean it's so interesting because when I first
started with SEO SEO is verydifferent back in around 2010.
And it still kind of works alittle bit today.
But I registered a domain name.
That was also the exact name ofthe search keyword I wanted to
rank for in Google, whichhappened to SEO services New
Yorkorg.
Oh, wow, that website is stilllive.
(10:18):
It's kind of a weird legion forus.
Hasn't been touched in yearsand still ranking surprisingly.
But SEO services New York isnot really brandable and it's
kind of stupid.
Oh well, seo companies, we useSEO services New York.
It's a category.
And then, okay, for legalpurposes, we went hyper web
(10:39):
marketing.
But I also thought that waskind of just bland.
You know, hyper web marketingit also doesn't really say what
we do.
It doesn't really create anydifferentiation.
And in that time around 2016,2017, I had probably a little
too much whiskey and was readingabout or saw something on the
(11:00):
TV, maybe about Kim Kardashianbreaking the web, and I went and
saw if the domain name wasavailable BreakthroughWebcom.
It wasn't and it's still not,because some squatter just
doesn't even want money, justwants to hold onto it and not do
anything.
So that's where it kind ofbreak the web started, though I
like the idea of more of like a,like an action type brand name.
(11:23):
Breaking the web and, of course, even the web is ambiguous
breaking Google and breaking SEOand breaking search engines.
Speaker 1 (11:31):
Huh, and that's so important because one of the
things I talk about is your bigdifference here, what separates
you, and so, and that's likeplanning your flag, naming what
you do, and so hyper web, itnames it, but, like I say, it
doesn't have the same intrinsicmeaning as break the web.
Right, and that's like I couldbe Mike Caldwell marketing and
nobody else could be MikeCaldwell marketing.
(11:51):
But who cares?
Right, empathic marketing.
Empathic has, has some meaningbehind it.
Break the web has some meaningbehind it.
So, yeah, that's that's reallycool.
One other people have cluedinto that.
Speaker 2 (12:04):
I like that.
I've heard nothing but positivefeedback over the years.
So even sometimes when I'mdoubtful of myself or like have
the imposter syndrome, Mike, isthat even a cool like brand name
?
We do SEO and people alwaysgive it some compliments, so
I'll take it.
Speaker 1 (12:18):
Yeah, and because there's the flip side to that as
well.
Right Like like everybody,you've spent so much time trying
to figure out your name and ifyou can't come up with one, I
look at like Apple computers.
That's pretty good company.
But what does Apple have to dowith anything?
Right Like could be paircomputers or nectarine computers
(12:41):
.
So yeah, as much as I loveempathic marketing, as much as I
love break the web, at the sametime Apple computer seems to
work, you know just fine forthem.
Speaker 2 (12:51):
So you know one thing I tend to notice, especially in
the marketing world andagencies they always have kind
of like a color plus animal,like right one.
That's not an actual agencyname but like orange iguana, you
know, it always tends to be onethat I see quite a lot, those
colors and animal names.
Speaker 1 (13:14):
So be so.
Hyper web you started that aswell.
Speaker 2 (13:18):
Yeah, it's now defunct.
It's the legal entity, I'm justso you've been an entrepreneur.
Speaker 1 (13:23):
You've been a business owner since 2010.
Speaker 2 (13:26):
Then, yeah, I was freelance for a couple of years
and over time, naturally frommaybe about 2010 until 2017, I
was slowly bringing on people tohelp me, whether it's virtual
assistance from all around theworld, just for the mundane
tasks that I don't have time foror just didn't really want to
do, and before you even know you, before you realize, you have
(13:49):
maybe like a small little agencyin a way.
But okay, it was around 2017where I'm like, okay, I want to.
I have a lot of bad habitsmyself.
Team members also have a lot ofbad habits.
We need to restructure from theground up.
We organize things and teammembers did stay, which is great
, but they also had theunderstanding that me as a
(14:10):
leader, we're going to be verydifferent.
The organization is verydifferent.
How we go about things is goingto change.
So it was an interesting timeand I mean it's still
interesting Always.
You know what it is like.
Entrepreneurship is kind oflike an emotional roller coaster
quite frequently.
Speaker 1 (14:24):
So that's actually my next question, like, do you
have any regrets?
You know going off on your ownand you know being responsible,
especially once you start hiringpeople, because that amps up
like your responsibility evenmore right.
So do you have any regrets forgoing that route?
Speaker 2 (14:38):
I wouldn't say I have any regrets.
I would say imposter syndromegets you or gets me all the time
.
I'm like why am I doing this?
I can go in house and a companyand do pretty well for myself
and not have to deal with any ofthis stuff.
I'll never get like the freedomand flexibility that I have now
(15:00):
with my life.
Being also able to buildsomething that's mine is also
kind of cool and gratifying in away.
Yeah Right, when those highscome, you just get beaten back
down again to a low.
What's?
Am I capable of doing this?
Am I worthy?
Why are people paying us moneyfor this crap?
Yeah, yeah, that's a day to dayfor me sometimes.
Speaker 1 (15:25):
I've always had cool jobs.
I've been an internationalwhite water guide, I've been a
firefighter, been a helicopterparamedic, self-employed.
I had all these cool jobs.
But one summer, back atuniversity, I worked in a
corrugated box factory and so myjob was sheets of cardboard
would go through the waxingmachine standing upright and wax
would pour down on them.
(15:45):
Then those waxed cardboardwould turn into like fruit boxes
right, that was my job.
All I did is I grabbed the waxand things of the thing, I put
on the roller belt and a strapwent around and I put it over
there.
I did that for eight hours.
Sounds pretty boring.
It is pretty boring, but we hadmusic on.
(16:06):
It was good.
But you know what, when I leftthat job, I didn't think about
that job again until I punchedin Free and clear brain, right.
And I agree with you entirelyon the freedom that we have
being self-employed.
Like if somebody asks me thisafternoon to go do something, I
could probably go just do it,right, I don't have to ask the
boss, I just go do it.
But at the same time, while I'mdoing it, I'm going to be
(16:29):
thinking about work when I go ona lot of vacations, but I
usually work for an hour or twoin the morning, which I don't
mind.
I like doing it.
Speaker 2 (16:37):
Even though you're not supposed to, we still do it.
Speaker 1 (16:39):
I'm never 100% free of my job, right, and you're
probably the same way.
Even though we have all thisfreedom at the same time, we do
kind of have shackles, unlikethe corrugated box job where I
can say, when I punched out,that was it.
Even as a medic, right, I waspunching in and punching out,
but I have the PTSD.
I've got to be thinking aboutthat patient I had the night
(17:00):
before or I might be worriedabout what I might be having
tonight.
It was always with you.
Sometimes I envy the hardcoreblue collar worker that just
punches in and punches out,because when they're punched out
they are 100% punched out.
Speaker 2 (17:15):
It's like a blessing and a curse, but also it's
interesting.
The empathy marketing reallyresonates with you.
It sounds like again, even whenyou're a medic, thinking about
the patient from the day prioror thinking about what the next
patient could be.
I find that really interesting.
What made you stop being amedic and going into marketing?
Speaker 1 (17:35):
It wasn't.
My last job was out in thehelicopter.
I loved being on the helicopterbecause I was as close to a
superhero as you can be.
You would just literally flyinto a scene, save somebody's
life and then fly away.
That was really cool.
There were two things about thejob I didn't like One, as I was
(17:56):
the base supervisor and I suckat politics.
I am just terrible at politics.
I'm a straight shooter.
I tell the way it is.
You're not allowed to do thatwith your staff.
You're not allowed to do thatwith your superiors.
I was getting in trouble withboth sides all the time because
I was just honest.
You're not supposed to behonest in work.
Anyway, I had a hard time withthe politics and I also am a day
(18:18):
person.
After 10 o'clock at night, mybody just shuts down and just
starts to hurt.
As a medic, especially in thatjob, we could go to bed.
If we have no calls, go to bedat 11 o'clock, 1 o'clock, alarms
would go and, oh my God, justgetting up just literally hurt.
(18:38):
The other problem is our shiftwould finish at 7 am.
I get home by 8, be in bed by9am and I could maybe sleep until
10 am and then I'd be awake.
It's like, no, I have to geteight hours.
30, 40 minutes isn't enough.
Go back to sleep and itwouldn't happen.
I'd be up all day just putzingaround and I'd go back to work.
(18:59):
Anyway, I think physically Iwould probably have died a lot
earlier if I kept doing that,because my body just doesn't
work that way.
Speaker 2 (19:08):
I get that working during night and trying to sleep
during the day just goingagainst your body's natural ebb
and flow.
Speaker 1 (19:16):
And I'm an outdoors guy, right and so to go to sleep
on a nice and I'm in Canada, sosummers are short and to waste
a day sleeping because you'veyou know it's.
I know I worked the nightbefore, but it seemed like I was
like sleeping the day away.
Yeah, it was tough.
Speaker 2 (19:32):
It was tough, for sure.
Speaker 1 (19:33):
So my thing is I've always done paid advertising.
If I want to get in front ofsomebody, I just pay to get
there.
Right, that's the quickest,shortest, the easiest way in my
mind.
So what's the benefit of SEO?
Like, why should we invest?
Not the money, I guess.
So much for the time.
Like, tell me the value of SEO.
Speaker 2 (19:55):
I mean the cool thing is you don't need to invest as
much in SEO, especially in alarge market, as you would with
paid.
Also, it's free clicks, you'renot paying per click.
I mean there's pros and cons togoing for SEO, going for paid
ads, even sometimes going forboth.
I mean we have clients thatlike to test markets and test
(20:15):
different topics and categorieswith paid ads First to justify
if it's worth it from an SEOperspective.
But if you can be in the organiclistings, people, as you know,
have the tendency to skip ads.
Even no matter how hard Googletries to hide those little words
that say ad, people tend toskip it.
So free clicks, there's a lotof different features that
(20:38):
appear in the search resultsalso that are not only part of
paid but in the e-com category,for example, product grids, free
shopping listings.
So there's a lot of opportunityand a lot of real estate on
page one of Google, paid adslistings being one of them.
But essentially free clicks,that's the big one where you
won't have to necessarily upyour budget during high seasons,
(21:02):
lower your budget during slowerseasons, where I mean money is
time anyway, time is moneyanyways, so you might not have
to work as much during certaintimes and certain areas, but
you're not throwing down as muchmoney overall.
Speaker 1 (21:19):
Okay.
So the other thing I like aboutpaid.
So this is a question you mightnot have had before when it
comes to SEO, and you said youwanted some hard balls.
So one of the things I talkedabout is Eugene Schwartz
breakthrough advertising.
He talks about your audience'slevel of awareness, where you
have an unaware audience.
You have a problem awareaudience, you have a solution
(21:40):
aware audience, you have aproduct aware audience and a
most aware audience, and so,when it comes to SEO, it seems
like you could only reallytarget the people looking for
the solution, right.
So, which is good, becauseyou've got a high intent
audience, but you're missing allthe people who aren't actively
searching for your solution,right?
So is there a way that SEO canbe used beyond that solution or
(22:05):
most aware audience?
Speaker 2 (22:07):
Probably not.
Seo is demand based.
If people aren't activelydemanding something whether,
again, it is an answer to aproblem, they have product, a
service, whatever it might bethen SEO is not fruitful.
I mean also, if your marketdoesn't necessarily exist like
this is notorious for startupsin which they want to integrate
SEO, but nobody's searching foryour product because nobody
(22:30):
really knows it exists yet.
And that's where paid ads comein, of course, usually during
social media, and paid ads andthat way are good for creating
markets, but SEO is good fordisrupting markets.
So it's a lot of it's based onwhat demand already exists.
Speaker 1 (22:48):
Okay, so I guess this is getting into like the nitty
gritty a little bit.
So what do you do like if Icame to you as a client?
What would you do to ascertainwhether or not my business, my
offer, is a good fit for SEO?
What's the first steps?
Speaker 2 (23:01):
there.
There's a lot that would comeinto an answer like that,
directly related to just solelySEO.
I mean, where are you?
What other marketing efforts doyou do?
What resources do you haveavailable?
I mean, that's one of the mostunderutilized aspects of good
SEO is the collaboration amongdifferent people developers,
(23:21):
copywriters, conversion teams,product teams, sales.
That's where everything in paidads too everyone should be
working together.
So that's the first one is tounderstand what kind of
resources you have available.
If we find a lot of glaringtechnical issues, who do we
present it to?
I mean, we're not developers,we're SEOs.
Do you have a development team?
(23:43):
Then, looking at the market size, what is kind of the?
Where do you stand in terms ofauthority?
I would carefully use the netword because I don't want any of
those vanity metrics or numbersto pop up like domain authority
.
But how does Google view yourwebsite?
And then how do they view yourwebsite against the competition?
Are you gonna be obliterated bythe bigwigs in the industry?
(24:06):
Do you have a realistic chance?
Does a good chance?
The answer actually might be no.
You may not be able to competeactively against the bigwigs.
Let's find some differenttargets.
If we can't, then probably SEOis not for you, but or at least
in the short term.
But there are ways that, again,solely but surely, you can
build your authority online,build your presence, build your
visibility so that, as you grow,you can start targeting more
(24:29):
competitive aspects.
Speaker 1 (24:32):
Okay, cool and like.
So my business is empathicmarketing, creating an empathic
marketing message, and I alwaystalk about so.
One of the things I always sayis like imagine I showed up at
the Monaco F1 race.
Okay, I showed up my Ram 1500truck right and Max Verchappen
was there with his F1 car rightand we switched vehicles.
(24:55):
It's just him and me on thecourse.
Who would win Max driving myRam pickup truck or me driving
his F1 car?
Speaker 2 (25:05):
And the answer is oh, sorry oh what would you think I
don't know if you're asking meor is it like a sorry Okay?
Speaker 1 (25:11):
well, yeah.
So the answer is Max would win.
Max would beat me driving mytruck over me driving his car,
and the reason for that isbecause those things are just
the vehicles.
Like the truck and the car arejust the vehicles, it's the
driver that matters.
And so, like Max to take mytruck to its limit, right, and I
(25:32):
would crash.
If I could get started, I wouldcrash, you know, max's car into
the wall in the first turn, andthis is what you're saying as
well.
That's why I brought that up.
It's because the message is soimportant.
So you could be at the topranking of an SEO, but it's not
gonna relate to a single sale ifyou don't have everything that
you're talking about behind it.
(25:52):
You know a website that worksand the copywriting and all that
other stuff, the team and it'sso cool that somebody who
focuses on SEO and you're sayingthat's so important because it
is, but you recognize that youknow SEO won't get you a sale on
its own.
It's just the.
It just opens the door.
It's just a vehicle that getsthe person searching for what
(26:13):
you're looking for to yourmessage.
Speaker 2 (26:15):
Yeah, I mean we've had leads come into our agency
of people saying like I need SEOto work or else XYZ will happen
or whatnot, and almost ninetimes out of 10, we'll probably
turn them down.
Because SEO is not a savinggrace and you can bring, like
you said, you can bring in asmuch traffic as you need, even
qualified traffic, but if CTAbuttons are in a different color
(26:36):
, if messaging is off, if thingsaren't even loading properly
and you wouldn't even know, thenthat's all gonna affect the
conversions and revenue.
So, yeah, I mean we say we playwell with others and we wanna
ensure that everyone gets whatthey need out of a collaboration
.
And also we understand that SEOis not the end of all be all,
where we might make an SEOrecommendation and the product
(26:58):
team comes back and says we needthat to be the way it is and
that's it.
We're like, okay, we'll try tofind some other areas that we
could win at.
Speaker 1 (27:09):
That's the one marketing vertical.
So I don't know how manywebsites are on the interweb
today.
Do you know Five, six?
Five or six Hundreds andbillions Billions, maybe Right
and each niche is growing, andso we've spoke a little bit
(27:30):
before and I think a lot of uswho know just a little bit about
SEO, I know just a little bitwe've heard the term long chain
keywords right yeah long tailkeywords yeah.
Long tail right.
Sorry, long see, I don't knowthat much.
So yeah, so do you want toexpand a little bit on that?
Like is that one of yourstrategies, or like?
Speaker 2 (27:49):
Yeah, especially in competitive markets where they,
of course, want to be the new upand coming, let's say clients.
Speaker 1 (27:56):
an e-com brand wants to be the new up and coming
player and let's just go back alittle bit and to those who know
even less than me, I don't knowif it's out there.
So what is a long tail versusshort tail?
What's the?
Speaker 2 (28:09):
Long tail technically is a keyword which keywords?
Sometimes even just a vanitymetric and SEO, but a long
version of a query that someonemight type into Google that may
not have as high search volumein Google search, so the amount
of people searching on a multibasis would be significantly
(28:29):
lower.
But the intent is significantlyhigher, the buyer's intent, the
conversion value issignificantly higher because
it's a lot more specific intosomeone, into what someone wants
.
So if I said, hey, mike, I gota widget for you.
Or hey, mike, I got a small redwidget that you can put in your
back pocket I think the secondone if that is what you're
(28:50):
looking for right, you probablyhave much higher conversion
value.
So it is a bit more longer tail, I mean long chain.
Long tail at the end of the dayis just a keyword and keywords
are sometimes dangerous too tofocus too heavily on.
But it allows you to startbuilding some SEO value.
Start building some great linksto your site, start building
(29:11):
some topical relevance, likeGoogle really understands what
your site's about.
Bring in some organic traffic.
If Google is giving you organictraffic, that means that they
kind of like you a little bitand continue building off that
and I mean we had to break theweb.
We do our own SEO drivencontent marketing.
There are times where we mightgo for keywords in our content
that maybe gets 50 to 100searches a month, but the
(29:34):
traffic that it gets has ahigher value and goes down the
funnel a lot easier than itwould going for the big money
keywords that have hundreds ofthousands of searches per month.
Which distractions.
Speaker 1 (29:46):
Right.
So, yeah, something that getsthat many searches, they've also
got a lot more options right,and so with a long tail keywords
you have less competition insome way.
Speaker 2 (29:58):
Yeah, and then if you have big players in your
competition, they're spending alot of money and time and
resources on those big keywords,especially if they could
realistically position forthemselves for two.
This might be best, eveninitially, focus efforts
elsewhere.
Speaker 1 (30:15):
Okay, yeah, one of my first success stories as a
marketer is I went to Californiato help a bootcamp gym just
really small bootcamp gym andthey were going under and what
they were trying to do isthey're trying to compete with
LA Fitness and Gold's gym andthey're the two owners.
They were ripped.
They look like freakingsuperheroes, they're so fit,
anyway, and they're going afterpeople like them.
(30:37):
And those are the people thatwere going to Gold's and LA
Fitness, like they were goingafter the 20 something who
wanted the beach body.
But when I went to the gym, Isaw that nobody like that
there's nobody that looked likethat in the gym.
It was all like middle-agedHispanic women.
Right, they were.
Just, they were significantlyoverweight, just trying to get
healthy, not beach bodies, butthey were.
(30:59):
So they were targeting thewrong audience and we weren't
doing SEO, we were doing paidadvertising.
But they were probably womenthat, like the women at their
gym, were afraid to go to LAFitness.
Like they even told me that,right, because they're just so
embarrassed, because, you know,if you're a 35-year-old woman
who's 60 pounds overweight, youdon't want to be beside Heidi
Klum working out at the machine.
(31:19):
So I can see how SEO would workreally well there, when you've
identified your sub-niche in acategory.
Speaker 2 (31:29):
And then you may even find out and that's just
general marketing that maybeyour ideal audience might be
wrong.
Let's say you might betargeting the wrong audience
because you think you know youraudience.
Especially if you're beingscrappy, you're like maybe I'm
spending too much time focusingon this one audience that is
harder to acquire.
(31:49):
But I have this giant audienceright here, who may not be what
I personally want.
You know entrepreneurs andfounders and their egos.
You know they want all thejacks people, but maybe they can
also bring in a crap ton ofrevenue running bootcasts for
people who want to lose weight.
Speaker 1 (32:06):
Yes, oh my gosh, this name escapes me.
I just read his book SethGoadon.
Oh yeah, seth talks about yoursmallest viable audience, and I
think that's probably like sortof a small tail, a short tail
keyword thing as well.
Right, you don't need everybody, you just need your core of
(32:26):
like diehard fans, and so I cansee how that would work there.
Speaker 2 (32:30):
Getting more specific .
I mean our agency.
We niche down not by industrybut by persona type.
So our pitch, in a way, is wemake SEO less annoying for
in-house marketing teams of B2C,d2c brands.
So we only work with in-housemarketing teams and I mean
that's our goal.
Seo is annoying, it's confusing, it's our nuances and a lot of
(32:53):
weird million different parts ofit.
I mean our goal is to just makeit a lot less annoying.
It's always going to beannoying, but less annoying.
Speaker 1 (33:02):
Okay, all right.
So is there any stories thatyou have where you ran a
campaign or something that youwere sure was going to work and
just like you were sure, like sosure it was going to work, and
it failed, or the flip side?
You're like we don't know whatto do, so you just hail Mary
this and then it ended up beinglike your biggest home run and
ever, ever.
(33:22):
Do you have any stories likethat?
Speaker 2 (33:24):
Probably a good amount on both sides.
I mean, okay, the hard thingabout SEO is that there's no
proven framework.
I mean there's frameworks.
There's no proven science tohow it all works.
It's not like you do thisexactly, this will happen.
Then you do this, this willhappen.
So for the most part, everythingis kind of theoretical in a way
(33:44):
, and sometimes you want thingsto move and you hope that.
Sometimes you hope that Googleis doing this job correctly.
Sometimes it doesn't, sometimesit does, sometimes you might be
missing something that's justright off on the side, but not
obvious, that is ruining theentire campaign, and it's
usually something small andweird and annoying when you find
it.
But I mean transparently, we'velost clients in the past,
(34:08):
especially early on when wedidn't have our processes and
our frameworks down pat, where acouple months go by and the
client's like, hey, what's goingon here?
And it could have been.
Maybe we set bad expectations,we didn't do as we needed to,
maybe Google is being weird,maybe their competitors have
more resources, time and moneyto dedicate to the SEO campaign,
(34:28):
which keeps them down.
So yeah, I mean there'sprobably a whole bunch of
campaigns over the years thatdidn't go as planned.
And, at the same time, there'ssmall little things that we do
and you're like holy crap.
I mean sometimes even like alittle tick in a box, in a way,
where Google is kind of waiting.
Like hey, domaincom, we want torank you, we want to put you on
(34:50):
top, but there's one littlething that's stopping you, and
that doesn't happen too often.
Seo is like a culmination ofmany different things, but, yeah
, there's been times where evencampaigns that we have a client
right now that we normally don'twork with startups but our team
has a lot of great rapport withtheir founder and he does have
the resources available.
(35:10):
And we said like hey, you'rebrand new, we're literally going
to be there when you press thelive button on your domain.
And we said it's probably goingto be a year until you see some
like really big stuff happeningthree months.
We're like, wow, we look likethe savers of the universe in a
way, and we look like the kidsand they're doing really great.
(35:32):
And it's only a month overmonth and I think we're on month
four right now and they'reabsolutely killing it.
So there's campaigns like thatwhere, when we have our team
meetings, we're like the site'sdoing really well.
You didn't expect it to move asfast as it is.
But they're also kind of asmall but big niche.
There's not a lot of bigplayers there, so good SEO can
(35:54):
surprise you.
Speaker 1 (35:57):
I couldn't do your job.
Speaker 2 (35:59):
Too much unknown.
Speaker 1 (36:01):
Well, no, I'm a firefighter paramedic by trade,
right.
And so if I take an action, ifI put the wet stuff on the red
stuff, I should see an immediateresponse.
Right, if I inject thismedication, I should expect to
see an immediate response, andthat's what I do now.
If I run an ad and I put $100on that ad, I'm going to know
(36:22):
with when $100, whether that isworking or not, and that could
be, like, you know, 12 hours.
I will know definitively whatI'm doing is working and there's
nothing you can do in SEO thatyou can measure in hours, little
weeks, like how long does ittake?
Speaker 2 (36:41):
SEO is not an instant gratification game.
If that's like what raises yourdopamine.
In a way, instant gratificationand SEO do not match.
You know, I get 100% whatyou're saying.
A part of me actually kind ofenjoys that.
We live in a world of basicgratification or phones,
everything at the palm of ourhands.
Sometimes, you know, I mean I'mweird.
(37:01):
I like to think back, like whatdid my ancestors do when they
had this issue or they got lost?
They didn't just pull outGoogle Maps, looked at the stars
and where the sun was setting,and you know, I don't know I'm
weird like that.
Sometimes, though and try not,I'm absolutely a product of my
time, 100%, like I love centralhair and I love my phone, but
(37:21):
fighting that urge for instantgratification, I actually enjoy
quite a lot.
Do I make a good choice now toget that?
Like, if I'm going to diet orsomething, I can eat this cake
and it's going to be absolutelydelicious.
Two hours later I might feellike crap, but I also won't
remember that I had the cake.
The taste will be gone out ofmy mouth.
Speaker 1 (37:40):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I don't know, it might beinstant gratification, it's just
more the patience, the weightLike.
I don't need to be rewardedright away, but I need an answer
.
Speaker 2 (37:52):
You're data driven, you mean you're a data driven
marketer.
We feed off data and then if wehave to wait sometimes a week
and a half or days to collect,like even for a search console
Google search console to updateits number, we're at the mercy
of that at times which is, Iguess, and that's like bad Bad.
If you want to make quick datadriven decisions, then yeah, but
(38:14):
SEO is more for like long termplays, where testing a market
with SEO is not the best, andthat's where paid ads are.
You know, even Google ads cancome in and help show if SEO is
viable.
Speaker 1 (38:29):
So I know with Facebook I'm a big Facebook guy
advertiser and I know if we payfor ads to an off to a page or
whatever that also Facebookrewards is with more organic
traffic, does that work at allwith Google?
So if you're paying for ads fora page, your organic doesn't
(38:50):
grow.
Speaker 2 (38:50):
No direct, direct correlation, okay, pardon me.
I mean, let's say, someone seesyour ad, they go to your
website and they're also writinga blog post about something on
their website.
Then they link from theirwebsite to your page, which they
saw from a paid ad.
Then you'll get SEO value.
Okay, but it's not a directcorrelation, right?
Speaker 1 (39:10):
Okay, all right, so what?
I've got two final questions.
One of the top three thingsthat drive SEO?
I'm thinking backlinks, I'mguessing, like what are the yeah
backlink?
Speaker 2 (39:21):
I'll let you answer what are the top three yeah
other strivers of SEO, othersites linking to yours ie
backlinks but also other sitesthat are reputable, that Google
themselves likes, gives themorganic traffic.
They themselves also, in turn,have good links, thematically
relevant.
That always helps If it alsodrives traffic.
(39:43):
That's like an added bonus.
So that's also really cool.
Like digital PR in a way,that's a big one.
I mean, even just branching offbroadly, that would be kind of
50% of it off page SEO and theother 50% would be on page SEO,
so kind of making sure that yoursite is thematically relevant.
But unfortunately every websiteand competitors can be
(40:05):
thematically relevant.
Every website could genuinelycreate really awesome content.
How far could you go when theysay, oh, just write better
content.
But I mean, sometimes you mightbe at your point of like this
is the best content.
And also that's kind ofsubjective too, who deems what's
better than another.
And that's where backlinks comein also to signal trust.
Relevance from the on page andtrust coming in from the off
(40:29):
page helps you dominate.
It's like if I said, hey, mike,you got a plumber I can use.
Yeah, jason, use ABC plumbers.
I'm going to trust ABC plumbersbecause they came from your
referral and your recommendation.
Speaker 1 (40:43):
So I paid a PR agency to get me on like 90 different
reputable sites so I can sayI've been on ABC.
You know it's kind of bogus.
But I really am on all thosesites.
We paid to be there.
Do those links count asbacklinks to the same degree, or
does Google differentiate it?
Speaker 2 (41:04):
depends.
I mean, it does depend on a lotof different things.
First and foremost is the linkwhat's called a follow or no
follow link.
You can attribute in the HTMLcode of your website a little
tag for every link that mighthave the words no follow in it,
which is telling search engineslike we're going to link to the
site, but we may not necessarilytrust them, so don't give,
(41:28):
don't blame us if the size isnot good, you know, type of
thing.
Okay, but also a site with PRlike that, which, when I
reference digital PR, more likepublic relations in a way, where
I'm I know exactly what you'retalking about, about press
releases back in a day so youcan get the ABC logo and all
these different logos next toyour icon.
Speaker 1 (41:46):
I've seen on yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (41:50):
So that's essentially contents indication in a way.
So if the same content is beingpublished to a million
different places, Google's notgoing to give you value for
every single unique one, butmaybe the source Most of the
time they will link back to thesource or they will have a code
in their HTML as well.
That's called canonical.
That'll tell Google hey, thisis duplicate.
This is the true version of themain page.
(42:13):
I mean it did work at a point.
I remember we used to do tonsof press releases because
they're also pretty cheap to doback in the day, Right, and you
can use software and tools toclick up a button and article
submissions and directorysubmissions and all that.
Yeah, At this moment not much.
I mean you could do it, itwon't hurt, but it probably
won't help you.
Speaker 1 (42:34):
Okay.
So, speaking of help, what isone actual thing that our
listeners could do today to helpmove the needle to get better
SEO rankings?
Speaker 2 (42:45):
Try not to reinvent the wheel with SEO.
Look at what your competitorsare doing and try to mimic it.
If they have a certainarchitecture of their website,
don't copy them, but try to usethat to brainstorm your own
unique ideas on how you can dosomething similar, especially if
multiple competitors are doingthe same thing.
If you see a correlation amongyour competitors having a
specific word in their title tagand title of the page, maybe
(43:08):
throw it into trying to get yourunique also so you can
differentiate yourself in thelistings.
Don't try to reinvent the wheel.
A lot of people try to createsomething new but if you look at
your competitors have astrategy and have a framework of
what to do just by looking atwhat Google is already showing
for your target search terms.
Speaker 1 (43:28):
Okay, cool, that's usually my last question, but I
thought of one earlier that Iforgot to ask, because this is
topical.
So AI are you doing anything?
Is AI because AI has reallyimproved a lot it's more
accessible to us mortals in thelast three to six months.
Is there anything you're doingwith AI now that you couldn't
have done a year ago?
Mostly?
Speaker 2 (43:50):
random tasks and things that would take us a
while to do, we would throw itthrough AI.
We're definitely not using AIfor content, art, belief and a
decent consensus, I think, whereI guess people to hang around
with in the SEO community.
It's just not there yet to bereally that valuable.
And the topic also of what isthe AI trained on, the LLMs, the
(44:14):
language learning models ifthey're trained on other
people's content as well, I meanit is a huge liability issue.
I know OpenAI is under variouslawsuits for just that exactly
AI content and having AIgenerate some thought leadership
.
We still wouldn't trust.
They're also actually wrong.
I mean I've gone to OpenAI andGoogle Bar and even Bing Chat,
(44:37):
which uses OpenAI, and they justgive out wrong information.
I was sitting on my phoneyesterday.
I went to Google Bar and Iwrote is Break the Web a legit
company?
I saw I think Lily Ray mighthave posted this on Twitter, an
SEO thought leader, and I waslike, okay, let me try this.
It said, yeah, here are somereviews about Break the Web.
It said John Brown at Acmeliterally said Acme company.
(45:00):
It just gave me a whole bunchof reviews for the company of
non-real people, fake companiesto help make your life easier
and your day-to-day easier.
Sure, if you also wanted tohelp you write an article, like
create an outline and createsome topical themes within an
article, absolutely, I mean,that's just smart time
(45:20):
utilization.
If you wanted to help calculatea whole bunch of data in a
Google Sheet, absolutely,content.
I mean it's gonna happen at onepoint where everyone's using AI
content not everyone, but it'sgonna be acceptable.
But when and will technology bethere and when will it be?
Speaker 1 (45:41):
there.
Yeah, I don't think you have tobe that sophisticated to be
able to pick out what AI hasgenerated.
Like I just saw an ad the otherday where in the ad, I said but
hang on to your hats, blah,blah, blah.
I'm like nobody says that.
Yeah, and also because I've gota Facebook group that I post
(46:03):
daily content in and that I justI just want to be on the group.
So I asked the chat to give melike 30 topics.
Gave me 30 topics and everymorning I'm like write topic one
for me, I just copy and pasteand put it in the group.
I mean you could.
But I just know all that.
Speaker 2 (46:20):
So go ahead.
I was gonna say, I mean, youcould train chat GBT in a way,
to kind of mimic you in aspecific thread Like a chat
combo.
Oh, it definitely does, and sothat's something I don't know.
Speaker 1 (46:29):
If you're using chat Now, there's a.
You can pre-instruct chat.
There's a little thing down thebottom left.
So you can tell a fair bitabout yourself and what you want
and what you don't want.
So in my instruction I'm likedon't say things like hang on to
your hats and don't say in this, you know, I say like lay off
the adjectives and the adverbsand all the flowery nonsense.
(46:51):
But yeah, but I see all the allthe emojis that puts up and
stuff right.
And so this one ad had had allthe same emojis as I have and,
like I said, it said hang on toyour hats.
I'm like, come on, this is anad.
You didn't even try, yeah.
Speaker 2 (47:05):
I mean it just doesn't sound human, sometimes
too Like there's a very bigdifference between what's
grammatically correct Alsowhat's conversational.
You know, so I mean we use wemight use chat, gbt or an AI to
generate meta descriptions.
Sometimes then we might likeswap things out here or there
and we're running jokeinternally here that they always
(47:26):
use discover to start up adescription and we always have
to say don't use the worddiscover or explore.
Well, discover the five dogswith cleft lips and you know
stupid.
Speaker 1 (47:41):
Yeah, I have one of my clients as a lawyer and I was
showing him what I was doingwith chat.
He's like, oh, I'm gonna.
So he went home he startedplaying with it and he was like,
oh, I love this, like it's fora lot of the research and stuff.
But he's but you, when you'reusing AI, when you're using chat
, like you say, you have to knowsome stuff.
Because one of the things hewas researching, chat quoted,
like we're in Canada, britishColumbia, law 67.2 and Harold my
(48:06):
client's like wow, I don't knowthat one.
And so he opened up his bookand chat just completely made up
a law, Like like the reviewsacne company gave you, like they
just made up a law and I meanlet people adopt more AI into
(48:26):
their lives and then realizelike, oh, I'm not gonna use AI
because it's just wrong.
Speaker 2 (48:30):
I mean, if you look at like Google Trends, ai, chat,
gbt, open AI, it's gone downover the last few months.
It was a big topic discussionbut the trend seems to have gone
down significantly.
But let people try andintegrate it into their day to
day and they'll be disappointedand say I'm not gonna go chat
anymore because it's wrong.
They also don't care aboutgiving wrong information.
(48:52):
Doesn't say like take this witha grain of salt, but XYZ law,
number whatever and bookwhatever you know.
Speaker 1 (49:01):
Yeah, like just yeah.
And actually the same client.
He has a car that's on the lakebehind us and we live off the
grid.
He lives off, he was, so I wasgonna install his off the grid
system for him and I wanna knowwhat size battery bank.
And so I'm like he's got afridge that uses this much power
and they're gonna use a currigand well, pump like three or
four other things.
(49:21):
So, based on this energyconsumption, what size battery
bank?
And oh my God, the battery bankwas 10 times as big as our home
here and I knew that because Iknow how big ours is and I know
what the chat was recommendingwith the calculation that it
wrote out the calculation for me, but it was 10 times as big.
I'm like, hey, chat, and I justsaid conversatially I think
(49:44):
that looks too big.
Can you check again and checkhis bags?
Like, oh, yeah, I made amiscalculation, my apologies, my
apologies, but had I just liketrusted chat with its first
answer, because it's a computerand it knows everything, I would
have went out and bought thislike million dollar battery bank
is like well, that's what Itold I needed, right.
(50:05):
And so, yeah, I think I love it, I use it a lot, but you it's
gotta be used as a tool andyou've got.
You have to have a foundationbefore you use it or it's gonna
it's gonna run you off the railssooner or later.
Speaker 2 (50:17):
Yeah, People are nervous about it taking over
their jobs.
Maybe depends what you do, butdefinitely not anytime soon.
Speaker 1 (50:25):
No, no, no.
Well cool, If our audiencewanted to work.
I don't know if you could helpsomebody, if you've got an offer
or how people can reach you,but what do you have for people
listening?
Speaker 2 (50:35):
We do SEO for in-house marketing teams that
wanna make SEO less annoying.
No specific offer.
If you wanna find us, you canGoogle break the web.
We're also atbreakthewwebagency Cool.
Speaker 1 (50:49):
And that's back in the day.
I used to get spam emails fromSEO companies and I would in
India, mostly right and I wouldtry to find them with Google
searches and I normally couldn'tfind them.
And this is when I had moretime than sense.
I like I just spent the lastfive minutes like trying to find
(51:10):
you with Google and I can'tfind you.
So if you're not doing SEO foryour own company, then I don't
think I want you representing me.
But break the web it was thefirst search, it was.
Speaker 2 (51:25):
Yeah, and companies are spot.
We own the service mark forthat, the legal trademark for
that word.
But yeah, I mean, it's easy toneglect your own marketing when
you offer marketing as a service, and it happens first of all
from like.
It's been a couple of monthssince we published a brand new
blog post.
We have our writer going in thenext two weeks and start
(51:46):
getting another.
One can't neglect it.
You can't get complacent.
Speaker 1 (51:50):
Right, and that's.
I spoke with that in my lastpodcast.
We were saying how, like yousaid, business is good, right,
business is good.
You're just cruising along andthen, like the woman I was
speaking with last week, we bothlost our like biggest client
out of the blue.
Like he retired, my clientretired, hers died.
And then we're like, oh shit,that's a big gap in our revenue
(52:13):
because we weren't marketing forourselves anymore.
We were just like coast alongon easy street and so you can
never, you never take your footoff the gas pedal there for sure
.
Speaker 2 (52:22):
Yeah, actually just made a LinkedIn post on
something similar this morningabout one URL being a primary
organic traffic driver and ifsomething would happen to that
one URL, your whole trafficmight drop and then the metrics
look like it sucks.
Speaker 1 (52:37):
So spread out and diversify your traffic sources
and I guess even spread out anddiversify and like say, don't
take your, you don't have tohave your foot on all the way
down on the gas, but you need tohave it on the pedal.
You need to be always you know,always moving forward.
Speaker 2 (52:52):
Yeah, cruisin with a little tap.
Speaker 1 (52:54):
Yes, yeah, yeah, well , anyway.
Well, thanks, jason.
It was great having you on theshow.
I learned a lot about SEO thatI didn't know before, and you
seem like a cool guy, and so ifthere are any in-house marketing
agencies that need help, theyshould definitely reach out to
you.
Speaker 2 (53:07):
I appreciate the time , Mike.
Speaker 1 (53:08):
This was great and that is a wrap for this episode
of Because Business is Personal.
Thanks for joining us and don'tforget to take advantage of my
two special offers.
First, you can get a free copyof my best-selling book,
empathic Marketing you Just Payfor the Shipping.
Or you can have 50% discount onmy Gap Analysis session with
(53:31):
the coupon code podcast Justhead over to
wwwBecauseBusinessIsPersonalcomor check the show notes for
details.
If you've enjoyed today'sepisode, please don't forget to
follow, subscribe, leave areview and share the podcast
with others who might benefit.
Your support means the world tous, so stay tuned for our next
(53:54):
episode, where we'll continue todelve into the intersection of
empathy and marketing strategy.
Remember, because Business isIndeed Personal, every
connection counts.
Until next time, see you then.
Hey, welcome to the Because Business is Personal
podcast, the podcast whereempathy meets marketing strategy
.
I'm your host, mike Caldwell,but I'm also known as the
marketing medic.
Now, the reason for that isbecause, before becoming a
marketing strategist, I actuallyworked as a paramedic for 12
years, and it was during thattime that I realized how
(00:20):
important it was to trulyunderstand the problems your
patient was facing before youstarted providing treatment.
And it's this sameunderstanding, the same empathy,
is just as crucial when itcomes to understanding our
prospects and making sales, andthat's why, in each episode,
we'll dissect the art ofempathic marketing, exploring
(00:42):
how top professionals infuseempathy into their strategies to
build stronger relationships,boost their sales and make a
lasting impact.
So buckle up and prepare toturn up the dial on your
marketing effectiveness.
As we gear up to dive deeperinto the realm of empathic
marketing, I'd like to share acouple of special offers with
(01:03):
you.
First, you can get a free copyof my international bestselling
book Empathic Marketing.
You only need to cover the costof shipping.
Reading this will provide youwith a much more in-depth
understanding of theempathy-based marketing approach
that we explore in this show.
Next, I'm offering a 50%discount on a transformative
(01:23):
30-minute gap analysis sessionwith me.
Reading this session willidentify the hurdles in your
marketing efforts and togetherwill develop an actionable
roadmap aimed at winning youmore clients and making you more
sales.
Just visit my website,wwwbecausebusinessispersonalcom
(01:44):
to grab your book or use couponcode podcast to take advantage
of my gap analysis offer.
So why wait?
Let's start turbocharging yourmarketing strategy today.
Now let's get started with ourepisode.
All right, hey, everyone.
Welcome back to another episodeof Because Business Personal.
I'm thrilled to have JasonBerkowitz, the founder and SEO
(02:09):
director of Break the Web, withus today.
With over a decade ofexperience in the world of
search engine optimization andpaid advertising, jason has been
instrumental in helpingbusinesses achieve remarkable
growth by demystifying organicgrowth strategies.
As a true advocate ofaccessibility, transparency and
(02:29):
meaningful results, jason'sexpertise aligns perfectly with
our empathic approach tobusiness.
So join us as we delve into hisjourney and uncover valuable
insights into building asuccessful online presence that
truly connects with customers.
Speaker 2 (02:45):
So welcome Jason.
Oh, thank you so much forhaving me, mike.
That was awesome.
I appreciate that intro.
Speaker 1 (02:53):
I did my research, man.
I know all about you, not allabout you.
I don't know much personalabout you.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
Social security nerd.
Yeah, talk about personal yeah.
Speaker 1 (03:06):
Because business is personal.
The way I like to start eachpodcast is to learn something a
little bit more personal aboutyou, something quirky, something
interesting to our listeners,that's non-business related, and
I know what I want to hear fromyou.
So if you don't give me thatanswer, then I'll get you to
change.
So what do you got for us?
Speaker 2 (03:22):
Oh man, I feel like there's a million things.
Speaker 1 (03:26):
I love Puppies.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
I love.
Puppies, she's actually snoringright through my desk.
So if you hear some weird noise, I mean puppy related, yeah, we
have a cleft lip, a cockapoo.
She's got like a little weird,weird lip and a little rescue.
So she has weird sleepy soundsbecause an extra hole, I guess,
in her face.
(03:48):
Yeah, she's a cute little one.
I would wake her up and showyou, but she's asleep.
Speaker 1 (03:54):
No, no, no, she's about a year and a half.
Let her sleep, let her sleep,let her get that beaty rest.
So what makes you like dogs somuch?
Speaker 2 (04:04):
No matter what you're going through, no matter how
your day is going, they'realways chipper and happy and
makes you smile.
You get home and again doesn'treally matter what's going on in
your life.
You always got like a friendlyface.
They call it man's best friendfor a reason a friendly face,
smiling, you want to give youlove and they're fluffy and
they're fluffy and they're coolto cuddle with.
(04:24):
I understand you've got a fewdogs yourself, right?
Actually, I see in thebackground we have five rescues.
Speaker 1 (04:31):
Yeah, if you're on the video, then you can see.
That's the puppy, that's anAustralian shepherd, Pico, and
then there's a basset hound, abasset hound and a Labradorian
right there.
Oh, then Fred's under the desk.
The border call, we're goingbuddies.
Yeah, buddy's over.
(04:51):
Oh, you can't see him.
We actually.
So we had two leather sofas andwe had to get a third, even
though there's just my wife andI.
But the way it works is I watchTV while my wife's making
dinner and sounds verypatriarchal, but that's the way
it is.
She'd make my dinner and bringme my dinner because I'm the man
(05:13):
, and then she'd have her place.
She's like I have nowhere tosit because I'm one part of the
couch, the dogs be on the othertwo, just so.
We actually had to get anothersofa, just so my wife could have
dinner with us.
Speaker 2 (05:28):
I love that you get in and dogs get priority right
On the couch.
They do, they do indeed.
Speaker 1 (05:34):
So tell me a little bit about the skydiving and then
we'll get into some businessstuff.
Speaker 2 (05:39):
Yeah, I mean.
Very similar actually to why Ilove dogs.
Oh, just a sec, I forgot a joke.
Speaker 1 (05:45):
I forgot a joke.
Yeah, the dog joke.
Yeah, so it's always funny.
So again I'm going back topatriarchal thing.
But you know, lock your wife inthe trunk of your car for an
hour and lock your dog in thetrunk of the car for an hour,
and who's happy to see you whenyou open the truck?
That's just dogs, man, they'rejust always.
(06:08):
They're not mad at you for whatyou did.
They don't judge you, they justlove you for who you are.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (06:12):
They're good.
They live simple, awesome lives.
You know, they just chill out,lay down in the sun, run after a
ball.
Yeah, yeah, pretty chill.
I mean I would come back as adog.
Yeah, I know we can learn a lotfrom our doggy friends for sure
.
Speaker 1 (06:25):
But anyway, okay, so sorry interrupt.
Let's go back to the skydiving.
Speaker 2 (06:29):
Oh.
So I mean skydiving is prettysimilar where, no matter where
you're going through in lifeoutside of the, you know it's,
of course, really adventurousand kind of out there as a sport
, but you're kind of in themoment, which is nice.
It's like a mental vacationwhere you kind of have to be in
the moment, which is cool andexciting.
Everything else going on inlife can be put on a temporary
(06:50):
pause and you're with thosefriends, have a great time,
laughs, and even the communityis pretty awesome.
No matter what status you arein life, income, occupation,
whatever it is all gets put awaybecause everyone there is just
skydivers.
Speaker 1 (07:05):
So skyd?
I know nothing about skydiving.
I bungee jumped with people saya scarier than skydiving by,
just I'm afraid of heights.
I was a helicopter paramedicbut I'm afraid of heights, but
so I don't know anything aboutskydiving.
Is that something you can getbetter at?
Or like, is what you do whatyou do?
Speaker 2 (07:22):
or yeah, you mostly suck when you get started.
Yeah, I mean, you mostly suckwhen you get started.
You had to learn how to controlyour body in the air, how to
maneuver, how to go left rightforward, back, slow down, speed
up, and especially if you're ina group, you don't want to just
tumble over people and that canbe bad.
So usually when you first getlicensed you're probably pretty
(07:46):
bad.
Everyone likes to think they'regood because they already can
do something really awesome.
But even after a couple hundredjumps you're still, for the
most part, learning somethingnew.
Speaker 1 (07:55):
Okay, so the cool part is like the actual flying
around like before the shootopens.
Speaker 2 (07:59):
So am I right?
Some people like it differently.
Some people enjoy the canopytime or underneath the parachute
a little bit more.
Some people like the free fall.
Okay, I enjoy both, actuallyalmost as equally where it's
calm, quiet, serene under thecanopy, but also the thrill,
excitement and going 150 milesan hour through the sky.
That's exciting in its own way.
(08:20):
So some people enjoy differentparts.
Some people will even pulltheir parachute much higher so
they can have more timeunderneath the canopy.
So that's it.
Speaker 1 (08:32):
Okay, all right, so let's get into some more
business related stuff.
So you're the founder and SEOdirector of Break the Web, so
how long have you been doingthat?
Speaker 2 (08:44):
Break the Web as a legal entity started about 2017.
I've been doing SEO since about2010.
So I think 13 years at thispoint.
But we went under a differentcompany name at the time and I
also kind of want to rebrand andrestructure everything from the
ground up, so kind of creatingnew light, and our old company
(09:07):
name kind of sucked.
It was hyper web marketing,which is stupid.
It's not even brandable, I meannonsense.
So that came in 2017restructuring and things and
trying to build out a moreefficient agency.
Speaker 1 (09:23):
Okay, actually I want to talk about that just a
little bit.
So my first, when I was doingmarketing for others, I was a
CastNet marketing and CAST stoodfor something and you know it's
CastNet and I had this logo andlook at back, it was so garbage
.
Now I'm the marketing medicwith empathic marketing like two
(09:47):
much more powerful statements.
So what gave you?
The epiphany that your firstname was no good and break the
web.
Man Like that says something.
Speaker 2 (09:57):
Yeah, I mean it's so interesting because when I first
started with SEO SEO is verydifferent back in around 2010.
And it still kind of works alittle bit today.
But I registered a domain name.
That was also the exact name ofthe search keyword I wanted to
rank for in Google, whichhappened to SEO services New
Yorkorg.
Oh, wow, that website is stilllive.
(10:18):
It's kind of a weird legion forus.
Hasn't been touched in yearsand still ranking surprisingly.
But SEO services New York isnot really brandable and it's
kind of stupid.
Oh well, seo companies, we useSEO services New York.
It's a category.
And then, okay, for legalpurposes, we went hyper web
(10:39):
marketing.
But I also thought that waskind of just bland.
You know, hyper web marketingit also doesn't really say what
we do.
It doesn't really create anydifferentiation.
And in that time around 2016,2017, I had probably a little
too much whiskey and was readingabout or saw something on the
(11:00):
TV, maybe about Kim Kardashianbreaking the web, and I went and
saw if the domain name wasavailable BreakthroughWebcom.
It wasn't and it's still not,because some squatter just
doesn't even want money, justwants to hold onto it and not do
anything.
So that's where it kind ofbreak the web started, though I
like the idea of more of like a,like an action type brand name.
(11:23):
Breaking the web and, of course, even the web is ambiguous
breaking Google and breaking SEOand breaking search engines.
Speaker 1 (11:31):
Huh, and that's so important because one of the
things I talk about is your bigdifference here, what separates
you, and so, and that's likeplanning your flag, naming what
you do, and so hyper web, itnames it, but, like I say, it
doesn't have the same intrinsicmeaning as break the web.
Right, and that's like I couldbe Mike Caldwell marketing and
nobody else could be MikeCaldwell marketing.
(11:51):
But who cares?
Right, empathic marketing.
Empathic has, has some meaningbehind it.
Break the web has some meaningbehind it.
So, yeah, that's that's reallycool.
One other people have cluedinto that.
Speaker 2 (12:04):
I like that.
I've heard nothing but positivefeedback over the years.
So even sometimes when I'mdoubtful of myself or like have
the imposter syndrome, Mike, isthat even a cool like brand name
?
We do SEO and people alwaysgive it some compliments, so
I'll take it.
Speaker 1 (12:18):
Yeah, and because there's the flip side to that as
well.
Right Like like everybody,you've spent so much time trying
to figure out your name and ifyou can't come up with one, I
look at like Apple computers.
That's pretty good company.
But what does Apple have to dowith anything?
Right Like could be paircomputers or nectarine computers
(12:41):
.
So yeah, as much as I loveempathic marketing, as much as I
love break the web, at the sametime Apple computer seems to
work, you know just fine forthem.
Speaker 2 (12:51):
So you know one thing I tend to notice, especially in
the marketing world andagencies they always have kind
of like a color plus animal,like right one.
That's not an actual agencyname but like orange iguana, you
know, it always tends to be onethat I see quite a lot, those
colors and animal names.
Speaker 1 (13:14):
So be so.
Hyper web you started that aswell.
Speaker 2 (13:18):
Yeah, it's now defunct.
It's the legal entity, I'm justso you've been an entrepreneur.
Speaker 1 (13:23):
You've been a business owner since 2010.
Speaker 2 (13:26):
Then, yeah, I was freelance for a couple of years
and over time, naturally frommaybe about 2010 until 2017, I
was slowly bringing on people tohelp me, whether it's virtual
assistance from all around theworld, just for the mundane
tasks that I don't have time foror just didn't really want to
do, and before you even know you, before you realize, you have
(13:49):
maybe like a small little agencyin a way.
But okay, it was around 2017where I'm like, okay, I want to.
I have a lot of bad habitsmyself.
Team members also have a lot ofbad habits.
We need to restructure from theground up.
We organize things and teammembers did stay, which is great
, but they also had theunderstanding that me as a
(14:10):
leader, we're going to be verydifferent.
The organization is verydifferent.
How we go about things is goingto change.
So it was an interesting timeand I mean it's still
interesting Always.
You know what it is like.
Entrepreneurship is kind oflike an emotional roller coaster
quite frequently.
Speaker 1 (14:24):
So that's actually my next question, like, do you
have any regrets?
You know going off on your ownand you know being responsible,
especially once you start hiringpeople, because that amps up
like your responsibility evenmore right.
So do you have any regrets forgoing that route?
Speaker 2 (14:38):
I wouldn't say I have any regrets.
I would say imposter syndromegets you or gets me all the time
.
I'm like why am I doing this?
I can go in house and a companyand do pretty well for myself
and not have to deal with any ofthis stuff.
I'll never get like the freedomand flexibility that I have now
(15:00):
with my life.
Being also able to buildsomething that's mine is also
kind of cool and gratifying in away.
Yeah Right, when those highscome, you just get beaten back
down again to a low.
What's?
Am I capable of doing this?
Am I worthy?
Why are people paying us moneyfor this crap?
Yeah, yeah, that's a day to dayfor me sometimes.
Speaker 1 (15:25):
I've always had cool jobs.
I've been an internationalwhite water guide, I've been a
firefighter, been a helicopterparamedic, self-employed.
I had all these cool jobs.
But one summer, back atuniversity, I worked in a
corrugated box factory and so myjob was sheets of cardboard
would go through the waxingmachine standing upright and wax
would pour down on them.
(15:45):
Then those waxed cardboardwould turn into like fruit boxes
right, that was my job.
All I did is I grabbed the waxand things of the thing, I put
on the roller belt and a strapwent around and I put it over
there.
I did that for eight hours.
Sounds pretty boring.
It is pretty boring, but we hadmusic on.
(16:06):
It was good.
But you know what, when I leftthat job, I didn't think about
that job again until I punchedin Free and clear brain, right.
And I agree with you entirelyon the freedom that we have
being self-employed.
Like if somebody asks me thisafternoon to go do something, I
could probably go just do it,right, I don't have to ask the
boss, I just go do it.
But at the same time, while I'mdoing it, I'm going to be
(16:29):
thinking about work when I go ona lot of vacations, but I
usually work for an hour or twoin the morning, which I don't
mind.
I like doing it.
Speaker 2 (16:37):
Even though you're not supposed to, we still do it.
Speaker 1 (16:39):
I'm never 100% free of my job, right, and you're
probably the same way.
Even though we have all thisfreedom at the same time, we do
kind of have shackles, unlikethe corrugated box job where I
can say, when I punched out,that was it.
Even as a medic, right, I waspunching in and punching out,
but I have the PTSD.
I've got to be thinking aboutthat patient I had the night
(17:00):
before or I might be worriedabout what I might be having
tonight.
It was always with you.
Sometimes I envy the hardcoreblue collar worker that just
punches in and punches out,because when they're punched out
they are 100% punched out.
Speaker 2 (17:15):
It's like a blessing and a curse, but also it's
interesting.
The empathy marketing reallyresonates with you.
It sounds like again, even whenyou're a medic, thinking about
the patient from the day prioror thinking about what the next
patient could be.
I find that really interesting.
What made you stop being amedic and going into marketing?
Speaker 1 (17:35):
It wasn't.
My last job was out in thehelicopter.
I loved being on the helicopterbecause I was as close to a
superhero as you can be.
You would just literally flyinto a scene, save somebody's
life and then fly away.
That was really cool.
There were two things about thejob I didn't like One, as I was
(17:56):
the base supervisor and I suckat politics.
I am just terrible at politics.
I'm a straight shooter.
I tell the way it is.
You're not allowed to do thatwith your staff.
You're not allowed to do thatwith your superiors.
I was getting in trouble withboth sides all the time because
I was just honest.
You're not supposed to behonest in work.
Anyway, I had a hard time withthe politics and I also am a day
(18:18):
person.
After 10 o'clock at night, mybody just shuts down and just
starts to hurt.
As a medic, especially in thatjob, we could go to bed.
If we have no calls, go to bedat 11 o'clock, 1 o'clock, alarms
would go and, oh my God, justgetting up just literally hurt.
(18:38):
The other problem is our shiftwould finish at 7 am.
I get home by 8, be in bed by9am and I could maybe sleep until
10 am and then I'd be awake.
It's like, no, I have to geteight hours.
30, 40 minutes isn't enough.
Go back to sleep and itwouldn't happen.
I'd be up all day just putzingaround and I'd go back to work.
(18:59):
Anyway, I think physically Iwould probably have died a lot
earlier if I kept doing that,because my body just doesn't
work that way.
Speaker 2 (19:08):
I get that working during night and trying to sleep
during the day just goingagainst your body's natural ebb
and flow.
Speaker 1 (19:16):
And I'm an outdoors guy, right and so to go to sleep
on a nice and I'm in Canada, sosummers are short and to waste
a day sleeping because you'veyou know it's.
I know I worked the nightbefore, but it seemed like I was
like sleeping the day away.
Yeah, it was tough.
Speaker 2 (19:32):
It was tough, for sure.
Speaker 1 (19:33):
So my thing is I've always done paid advertising.
If I want to get in front ofsomebody, I just pay to get
there.
Right, that's the quickest,shortest, the easiest way in my
mind.
So what's the benefit of SEO?
Like, why should we invest?
Not the money, I guess.
So much for the time.
Like, tell me the value of SEO.
Speaker 2 (19:55):
I mean the cool thing is you don't need to invest as
much in SEO, especially in alarge market, as you would with
paid.
Also, it's free clicks, you'renot paying per click.
I mean there's pros and cons togoing for SEO, going for paid
ads, even sometimes going forboth.
I mean we have clients thatlike to test markets and test
(20:15):
different topics and categorieswith paid ads First to justify
if it's worth it from an SEOperspective.
But if you can be in the organiclistings, people, as you know,
have the tendency to skip ads.
Even no matter how hard Googletries to hide those little words
that say ad, people tend toskip it.
So free clicks, there's a lotof different features that
(20:38):
appear in the search resultsalso that are not only part of
paid but in the e-com category,for example, product grids, free
shopping listings.
So there's a lot of opportunityand a lot of real estate on
page one of Google, paid adslistings being one of them.
But essentially free clicks,that's the big one where you
won't have to necessarily upyour budget during high seasons,
(21:02):
lower your budget during slowerseasons, where I mean money is
time anyway, time is moneyanyways, so you might not have
to work as much during certaintimes and certain areas, but
you're not throwing down as muchmoney overall.
Speaker 1 (21:19):
Okay.
So the other thing I like aboutpaid.
So this is a question you mightnot have had before when it
comes to SEO, and you said youwanted some hard balls.
So one of the things I talkedabout is Eugene Schwartz
breakthrough advertising.
He talks about your audience'slevel of awareness, where you
have an unaware audience.
You have a problem awareaudience, you have a solution
(21:40):
aware audience, you have aproduct aware audience and a
most aware audience, and so,when it comes to SEO, it seems
like you could only reallytarget the people looking for
the solution, right.
So, which is good, becauseyou've got a high intent
audience, but you're missing allthe people who aren't actively
searching for your solution,right?
So is there a way that SEO canbe used beyond that solution or
(22:05):
most aware audience?
Speaker 2 (22:07):
Probably not.
Seo is demand based.
If people aren't activelydemanding something whether,
again, it is an answer to aproblem, they have product, a
service, whatever it might bethen SEO is not fruitful.
I mean also, if your marketdoesn't necessarily exist like
this is notorious for startupsin which they want to integrate
SEO, but nobody's searching foryour product because nobody
(22:30):
really knows it exists yet.
And that's where paid ads comein, of course, usually during
social media, and paid ads andthat way are good for creating
markets, but SEO is good fordisrupting markets.
So it's a lot of it's based onwhat demand already exists.
Speaker 1 (22:48):
Okay, so I guess this is getting into like the nitty
gritty a little bit.
So what do you do like if Icame to you as a client?
What would you do to ascertainwhether or not my business, my
offer, is a good fit for SEO?
What's the first steps?
Speaker 2 (23:01):
there.
There's a lot that would comeinto an answer like that,
directly related to just solelySEO.
I mean, where are you?
What other marketing efforts doyou do?
What resources do you haveavailable?
I mean, that's one of the mostunderutilized aspects of good
SEO is the collaboration amongdifferent people developers,
(23:21):
copywriters, conversion teams,product teams, sales.
That's where everything in paidads too everyone should be
working together.
So that's the first one is tounderstand what kind of
resources you have available.
If we find a lot of glaringtechnical issues, who do we
present it to?
I mean, we're not developers,we're SEOs.
Do you have a development team?
(23:43):
Then, looking at the market size, what is kind of the?
Where do you stand in terms ofauthority?
I would carefully use the netword because I don't want any of
those vanity metrics or numbersto pop up like domain authority
.
But how does Google view yourwebsite?
And then how do they view yourwebsite against the competition?
Are you gonna be obliterated bythe bigwigs in the industry?
(24:06):
Do you have a realistic chance?
Does a good chance?
The answer actually might be no.
You may not be able to competeactively against the bigwigs.
Let's find some differenttargets.
If we can't, then probably SEOis not for you, but or at least
in the short term.
But there are ways that, again,solely but surely, you can
build your authority online,build your presence, build your
visibility so that, as you grow,you can start targeting more
(24:29):
competitive aspects.
Speaker 1 (24:32):
Okay, cool and like.
So my business is empathicmarketing, creating an empathic
marketing message, and I alwaystalk about so.
One of the things I always sayis like imagine I showed up at
the Monaco F1 race.
Okay, I showed up my Ram 1500truck right and Max Verchappen
was there with his F1 car rightand we switched vehicles.
(24:55):
It's just him and me on thecourse.
Who would win Max driving myRam pickup truck or me driving
his F1 car?
Speaker 2 (25:05):
And the answer is oh, sorry oh what would you think I
don't know if you're asking meor is it like a sorry Okay?
Speaker 1 (25:11):
well, yeah.
So the answer is Max would win.
Max would beat me driving mytruck over me driving his car,
and the reason for that isbecause those things are just
the vehicles.
Like the truck and the car arejust the vehicles, it's the
driver that matters.
And so, like Max to take mytruck to its limit, right, and I
(25:32):
would crash.
If I could get started, I wouldcrash, you know, max's car into
the wall in the first turn, andthis is what you're saying as
well.
That's why I brought that up.
It's because the message is soimportant.
So you could be at the topranking of an SEO, but it's not
gonna relate to a single sale ifyou don't have everything that
you're talking about behind it.
(25:52):
You know a website that worksand the copywriting and all that
other stuff, the team and it'sso cool that somebody who
focuses on SEO and you're sayingthat's so important because it
is, but you recognize that youknow SEO won't get you a sale on
its own.
It's just the.
It just opens the door.
It's just a vehicle that getsthe person searching for what
(26:13):
you're looking for to yourmessage.
Speaker 2 (26:15):
Yeah, I mean we've had leads come into our agency
of people saying like I need SEOto work or else XYZ will happen
or whatnot, and almost ninetimes out of 10, we'll probably
turn them down.
Because SEO is not a savinggrace and you can bring, like
you said, you can bring in asmuch traffic as you need, even
qualified traffic, but if CTAbuttons are in a different color
(26:36):
, if messaging is off, if thingsaren't even loading properly
and you wouldn't even know, thenthat's all gonna affect the
conversions and revenue.
So, yeah, I mean we say we playwell with others and we wanna
ensure that everyone gets whatthey need out of a collaboration
.
And also we understand that SEOis not the end of all be all,
where we might make an SEOrecommendation and the product
(26:58):
team comes back and says we needthat to be the way it is and
that's it.
We're like, okay, we'll try tofind some other areas that we
could win at.
Speaker 1 (27:09):
That's the one marketing vertical.
So I don't know how manywebsites are on the interweb
today.
Do you know Five, six?
Five or six Hundreds andbillions Billions, maybe Right
and each niche is growing, andso we've spoke a little bit
(27:30):
before and I think a lot of uswho know just a little bit about
SEO, I know just a little bitwe've heard the term long chain
keywords right yeah long tailkeywords yeah.
Long tail right.
Sorry, long see, I don't knowthat much.
So yeah, so do you want toexpand a little bit on that?
Like is that one of yourstrategies, or like?
Speaker 2 (27:49):
Yeah, especially in competitive markets where they,
of course, want to be the new upand coming, let's say clients.
Speaker 1 (27:56):
an e-com brand wants to be the new up and coming
player and let's just go back alittle bit and to those who know
even less than me, I don't knowif it's out there.
So what is a long tail versusshort tail?
What's the?
Speaker 2 (28:09):
Long tail technically is a keyword which keywords?
Sometimes even just a vanitymetric and SEO, but a long
version of a query that someonemight type into Google that may
not have as high search volumein Google search, so the amount
of people searching on a multibasis would be significantly
(28:29):
lower.
But the intent is significantlyhigher, the buyer's intent, the
conversion value issignificantly higher because
it's a lot more specific intosomeone, into what someone wants
.
So if I said, hey, mike, I gota widget for you.
Or hey, mike, I got a small redwidget that you can put in your
back pocket I think the secondone if that is what you're
(28:50):
looking for right, you probablyhave much higher conversion
value.
So it is a bit more longer tail, I mean long chain.
Long tail at the end of the dayis just a keyword and keywords
are sometimes dangerous too tofocus too heavily on.
But it allows you to startbuilding some SEO value.
Start building some great linksto your site, start building
(29:11):
some topical relevance, likeGoogle really understands what
your site's about.
Bring in some organic traffic.
If Google is giving you organictraffic, that means that they
kind of like you a little bitand continue building off that
and I mean we had to break theweb.
We do our own SEO drivencontent marketing.
There are times where we mightgo for keywords in our content
that maybe gets 50 to 100searches a month, but the
(29:34):
traffic that it gets has ahigher value and goes down the
funnel a lot easier than itwould going for the big money
keywords that have hundreds ofthousands of searches per month.
Which distractions.
Speaker 1 (29:46):
Right.
So, yeah, something that getsthat many searches, they've also
got a lot more options right,and so with a long tail keywords
you have less competition insome way.
Speaker 2 (29:58):
Yeah, and then if you have big players in your
competition, they're spending alot of money and time and
resources on those big keywords,especially if they could
realistically position forthemselves for two.
This might be best, eveninitially, focus efforts
elsewhere.
Speaker 1 (30:15):
Okay, yeah, one of my first success stories as a
marketer is I went to Californiato help a bootcamp gym just
really small bootcamp gym andthey were going under and what
they were trying to do isthey're trying to compete with
LA Fitness and Gold's gym andthey're the two owners.
They were ripped.
They look like freakingsuperheroes, they're so fit,
anyway, and they're going afterpeople like them.
(30:37):
And those are the people thatwere going to Gold's and LA
Fitness, like they were goingafter the 20 something who
wanted the beach body.
But when I went to the gym, Isaw that nobody like that
there's nobody that looked likethat in the gym.
It was all like middle-agedHispanic women.
Right, they were.
Just, they were significantlyoverweight, just trying to get
healthy, not beach bodies, butthey were.
(30:59):
So they were targeting thewrong audience and we weren't
doing SEO, we were doing paidadvertising.
But they were probably womenthat, like the women at their
gym, were afraid to go to LAFitness.
Like they even told me that,right, because they're just so
embarrassed, because, you know,if you're a 35-year-old woman
who's 60 pounds overweight, youdon't want to be beside Heidi
Klum working out at the machine.
(31:19):
So I can see how SEO would workreally well there, when you've
identified your sub-niche in acategory.
Speaker 2 (31:29):
And then you may even find out and that's just
general marketing that maybeyour ideal audience might be
wrong.
Let's say you might betargeting the wrong audience
because you think you know youraudience.
Especially if you're beingscrappy, you're like maybe I'm
spending too much time focusingon this one audience that is
harder to acquire.
(31:49):
But I have this giant audienceright here, who may not be what
I personally want.
You know entrepreneurs andfounders and their egos.
You know they want all thejacks people, but maybe they can
also bring in a crap ton ofrevenue running bootcasts for
people who want to lose weight.
Speaker 1 (32:06):
Yes, oh my gosh, this name escapes me.
I just read his book SethGoadon.
Oh yeah, seth talks about yoursmallest viable audience, and I
think that's probably like sortof a small tail, a short tail
keyword thing as well.
Right, you don't need everybody, you just need your core of
(32:26):
like diehard fans, and so I cansee how that would work there.
Speaker 2 (32:30):
Getting more specific .
I mean our agency.
We niche down not by industrybut by persona type.
So our pitch, in a way, is wemake SEO less annoying for
in-house marketing teams of B2C,d2c brands.
So we only work with in-housemarketing teams and I mean
that's our goal.
Seo is annoying, it's confusing, it's our nuances and a lot of
(32:53):
weird million different parts ofit.
I mean our goal is to just makeit a lot less annoying.
It's always going to beannoying, but less annoying.
Speaker 1 (33:02):
Okay, all right.
So is there any stories thatyou have where you ran a
campaign or something that youwere sure was going to work and
just like you were sure, like sosure it was going to work, and
it failed, or the flip side?
You're like we don't know whatto do, so you just hail Mary
this and then it ended up beinglike your biggest home run and
ever, ever.
(33:22):
Do you have any stories likethat?
Speaker 2 (33:24):
Probably a good amount on both sides.
I mean, okay, the hard thingabout SEO is that there's no
proven framework.
I mean there's frameworks.
There's no proven science tohow it all works.
It's not like you do thisexactly, this will happen.
Then you do this, this willhappen.
So for the most part, everythingis kind of theoretical in a way
(33:44):
, and sometimes you want thingsto move and you hope that.
Sometimes you hope that Googleis doing this job correctly.
Sometimes it doesn't, sometimesit does, sometimes you might be
missing something that's justright off on the side, but not
obvious, that is ruining theentire campaign, and it's
usually something small andweird and annoying when you find
it.
But I mean transparently, we'velost clients in the past,
(34:08):
especially early on when wedidn't have our processes and
our frameworks down pat, where acouple months go by and the
client's like, hey, what's goingon here?
And it could have been.
Maybe we set bad expectations,we didn't do as we needed to,
maybe Google is being weird,maybe their competitors have
more resources, time and moneyto dedicate to the SEO campaign,
(34:28):
which keeps them down.
So yeah, I mean there'sprobably a whole bunch of
campaigns over the years thatdidn't go as planned.
And, at the same time, there'ssmall little things that we do
and you're like holy crap.
I mean sometimes even like alittle tick in a box, in a way,
where Google is kind of waiting.
Like hey, domaincom, we want torank you, we want to put you on
(34:50):
top, but there's one littlething that's stopping you, and
that doesn't happen too often.
Seo is like a culmination ofmany different things, but, yeah
, there's been times where evencampaigns that we have a client
right now that we normally don'twork with startups but our team
has a lot of great rapport withtheir founder and he does have
the resources available.
(35:10):
And we said like hey, you'rebrand new, we're literally going
to be there when you press thelive button on your domain.
And we said it's probably goingto be a year until you see some
like really big stuff happeningthree months.
We're like, wow, we look likethe savers of the universe in a
way, and we look like the kidsand they're doing really great.
(35:32):
And it's only a month overmonth and I think we're on month
four right now and they'reabsolutely killing it.
So there's campaigns like thatwhere, when we have our team
meetings, we're like the site'sdoing really well.
You didn't expect it to move asfast as it is.
But they're also kind of asmall but big niche.
There's not a lot of bigplayers there, so good SEO can
(35:54):
surprise you.
Speaker 1 (35:57):
I couldn't do your job.
Speaker 2 (35:59):
Too much unknown.
Speaker 1 (36:01):
Well, no, I'm a firefighter paramedic by trade,
right.
And so if I take an action, ifI put the wet stuff on the red
stuff, I should see an immediateresponse.
Right, if I inject thismedication, I should expect to
see an immediate response, andthat's what I do now.
If I run an ad and I put $100on that ad, I'm going to know
(36:22):
with when $100, whether that isworking or not, and that could
be, like, you know, 12 hours.
I will know definitively whatI'm doing is working and there's
nothing you can do in SEO thatyou can measure in hours, little
weeks, like how long does ittake?
Speaker 2 (36:41):
SEO is not an instant gratification game.
If that's like what raises yourdopamine.
In a way, instant gratificationand SEO do not match.
You know, I get 100% whatyou're saying.
A part of me actually kind ofenjoys that.
We live in a world of basicgratification or phones,
everything at the palm of ourhands.
Sometimes, you know, I mean I'mweird.
(37:01):
I like to think back, like whatdid my ancestors do when they
had this issue or they got lost?
They didn't just pull outGoogle Maps, looked at the stars
and where the sun was setting,and you know, I don't know I'm
weird like that.
Sometimes, though and try not,I'm absolutely a product of my
time, 100%, like I love centralhair and I love my phone, but
(37:21):
fighting that urge for instantgratification, I actually enjoy
quite a lot.
Do I make a good choice now toget that?
Like, if I'm going to diet orsomething, I can eat this cake
and it's going to be absolutelydelicious.
Two hours later I might feellike crap, but I also won't
remember that I had the cake.
The taste will be gone out ofmy mouth.
Speaker 1 (37:40):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I don't know, it might beinstant gratification, it's just
more the patience, the weightLike.
I don't need to be rewardedright away, but I need an answer
.
Speaker 2 (37:52):
You're data driven, you mean you're a data driven
marketer.
We feed off data and then if wehave to wait sometimes a week
and a half or days to collect,like even for a search console
Google search console to updateits number, we're at the mercy
of that at times which is, Iguess, and that's like bad Bad.
If you want to make quick datadriven decisions, then yeah, but
(38:14):
SEO is more for like long termplays, where testing a market
with SEO is not the best, andthat's where paid ads are.
You know, even Google ads cancome in and help show if SEO is
viable.
Speaker 1 (38:29):
So I know with Facebook I'm a big Facebook guy
advertiser and I know if we payfor ads to an off to a page or
whatever that also Facebookrewards is with more organic
traffic, does that work at allwith Google?
So if you're paying for ads fora page, your organic doesn't
(38:50):
grow.
Speaker 2 (38:50):
No direct, direct correlation, okay, pardon me.
I mean, let's say, someone seesyour ad, they go to your
website and they're also writinga blog post about something on
their website.
Then they link from theirwebsite to your page, which they
saw from a paid ad.
Then you'll get SEO value.
Okay, but it's not a directcorrelation, right?
Speaker 1 (39:10):
Okay, all right, so what?
I've got two final questions.
One of the top three thingsthat drive SEO?
I'm thinking backlinks, I'mguessing, like what are the yeah
backlink?
Speaker 2 (39:21):
I'll let you answer what are the top three yeah
other strivers of SEO, othersites linking to yours ie
backlinks but also other sitesthat are reputable, that Google
themselves likes, gives themorganic traffic.
They themselves also, in turn,have good links, thematically
relevant.
That always helps If it alsodrives traffic.
(39:43):
That's like an added bonus.
So that's also really cool.
Like digital PR in a way,that's a big one.
I mean, even just branching offbroadly, that would be kind of
50% of it off page SEO and theother 50% would be on page SEO,
so kind of making sure that yoursite is thematically relevant.
But unfortunately every websiteand competitors can be
(40:05):
thematically relevant.
Every website could genuinelycreate really awesome content.
How far could you go when theysay, oh, just write better
content.
But I mean, sometimes you mightbe at your point of like this
is the best content.
And also that's kind ofsubjective too, who deems what's
better than another.
And that's where backlinks comein also to signal trust.
Relevance from the on page andtrust coming in from the off
(40:29):
page helps you dominate.
It's like if I said, hey, mike,you got a plumber I can use.
Yeah, jason, use ABC plumbers.
I'm going to trust ABC plumbersbecause they came from your
referral and your recommendation.
Speaker 1 (40:43):
So I paid a PR agency to get me on like 90 different
reputable sites so I can sayI've been on ABC.
You know it's kind of bogus.
But I really am on all thosesites.
We paid to be there.
Do those links count asbacklinks to the same degree, or
does Google differentiate it?
Speaker 2 (41:04):
depends.
I mean, it does depend on a lotof different things.
First and foremost is the linkwhat's called a follow or no
follow link.
You can attribute in the HTMLcode of your website a little
tag for every link that mighthave the words no follow in it,
which is telling search engineslike we're going to link to the
site, but we may not necessarilytrust them, so don't give,
(41:28):
don't blame us if the size isnot good, you know, type of
thing.
Okay, but also a site with PRlike that, which, when I
reference digital PR, more likepublic relations in a way, where
I'm I know exactly what you'retalking about, about press
releases back in a day so youcan get the ABC logo and all
these different logos next toyour icon.
Speaker 1 (41:46):
I've seen on yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (41:50):
So that's essentially contents indication in a way.
So if the same content is beingpublished to a million
different places, Google's notgoing to give you value for
every single unique one, butmaybe the source Most of the
time they will link back to thesource or they will have a code
in their HTML as well.
That's called canonical.
That'll tell Google hey, thisis duplicate.
This is the true version of themain page.
(42:13):
I mean it did work at a point.
I remember we used to do tonsof press releases because
they're also pretty cheap to doback in the day, Right, and you
can use software and tools toclick up a button and article
submissions and directorysubmissions and all that.
Yeah, At this moment not much.
I mean you could do it, itwon't hurt, but it probably
won't help you.
Speaker 1 (42:34):
Okay.
So, speaking of help, what isone actual thing that our
listeners could do today to helpmove the needle to get better
SEO rankings?
Speaker 2 (42:45):
Try not to reinvent the wheel with SEO.
Look at what your competitorsare doing and try to mimic it.
If they have a certainarchitecture of their website,
don't copy them, but try to usethat to brainstorm your own
unique ideas on how you can dosomething similar, especially if
multiple competitors are doingthe same thing.
If you see a correlation amongyour competitors having a
specific word in their title tagand title of the page, maybe
(43:08):
throw it into trying to get yourunique also so you can
differentiate yourself in thelistings.
Don't try to reinvent the wheel.
A lot of people try to createsomething new but if you look at
your competitors have astrategy and have a framework of
what to do just by looking atwhat Google is already showing
for your target search terms.
Speaker 1 (43:28):
Okay, cool, that's usually my last question, but I
thought of one earlier that Iforgot to ask, because this is
topical.
So AI are you doing anything?
Is AI because AI has reallyimproved a lot it's more
accessible to us mortals in thelast three to six months.
Is there anything you're doingwith AI now that you couldn't
have done a year ago?
Mostly?
Speaker 2 (43:50):
random tasks and things that would take us a
while to do, we would throw itthrough AI.
We're definitely not using AIfor content, art, belief and a
decent consensus, I think, whereI guess people to hang around
with in the SEO community.
It's just not there yet to bereally that valuable.
And the topic also of what isthe AI trained on, the LLMs, the
(44:14):
language learning models ifthey're trained on other
people's content as well, I meanit is a huge liability issue.
I know OpenAI is under variouslawsuits for just that exactly
AI content and having AIgenerate some thought leadership
.
We still wouldn't trust.
They're also actually wrong.
I mean I've gone to OpenAI andGoogle Bar and even Bing Chat,
(44:37):
which uses OpenAI, and they justgive out wrong information.
I was sitting on my phoneyesterday.
I went to Google Bar and Iwrote is Break the Web a legit
company?
I saw I think Lily Ray mighthave posted this on Twitter, an
SEO thought leader, and I waslike, okay, let me try this.
It said, yeah, here are somereviews about Break the Web.
It said John Brown at Acmeliterally said Acme company.
(45:00):
It just gave me a whole bunchof reviews for the company of
non-real people, fake companiesto help make your life easier
and your day-to-day easier.
Sure, if you also wanted tohelp you write an article, like
create an outline and createsome topical themes within an
article, absolutely, I mean,that's just smart time
(45:20):
utilization.
If you wanted to help calculatea whole bunch of data in a
Google Sheet, absolutely,content.
I mean it's gonna happen at onepoint where everyone's using AI
content not everyone, but it'sgonna be acceptable.
But when and will technology bethere and when will it be?
Speaker 1 (45:41):
there.
Yeah, I don't think you have tobe that sophisticated to be
able to pick out what AI hasgenerated.
Like I just saw an ad the otherday where in the ad, I said but
hang on to your hats, blah,blah, blah.
I'm like nobody says that.
Yeah, and also because I've gota Facebook group that I post
(46:03):
daily content in and that I justI just want to be on the group.
So I asked the chat to give melike 30 topics.
Gave me 30 topics and everymorning I'm like write topic one
for me, I just copy and pasteand put it in the group.
I mean you could.
But I just know all that.
Speaker 2 (46:20):
So go ahead.
I was gonna say, I mean, youcould train chat GBT in a way,
to kind of mimic you in aspecific thread Like a chat
combo.
Oh, it definitely does, and sothat's something I don't know.
Speaker 1 (46:29):
If you're using chat Now, there's a.
You can pre-instruct chat.
There's a little thing down thebottom left.
So you can tell a fair bitabout yourself and what you want
and what you don't want.
So in my instruction I'm likedon't say things like hang on to
your hats and don't say in this, you know, I say like lay off
the adjectives and the adverbsand all the flowery nonsense.
(46:51):
But yeah, but I see all the allthe emojis that puts up and
stuff right.
And so this one ad had had allthe same emojis as I have and,
like I said, it said hang on toyour hats.
I'm like, come on, this is anad.
You didn't even try, yeah.
Speaker 2 (47:05):
I mean it just doesn't sound human, sometimes
too Like there's a very bigdifference between what's
grammatically correct Alsowhat's conversational.
You know, so I mean we use wemight use chat, gbt or an AI to
generate meta descriptions.
Sometimes then we might likeswap things out here or there
and we're running jokeinternally here that they always
(47:26):
use discover to start up adescription and we always have
to say don't use the worddiscover or explore.
Well, discover the five dogswith cleft lips and you know
stupid.
Speaker 1 (47:41):
Yeah, I have one of my clients as a lawyer and I was
showing him what I was doingwith chat.
He's like, oh, I'm gonna.
So he went home he startedplaying with it and he was like,
oh, I love this, like it's fora lot of the research and stuff.
But he's but you, when you'reusing AI, when you're using chat
, like you say, you have to knowsome stuff.
Because one of the things hewas researching, chat quoted,
like we're in Canada, britishColumbia, law 67.2 and Harold my
(48:06):
client's like wow, I don't knowthat one.
And so he opened up his bookand chat just completely made up
a law, Like like the reviewsacne company gave you, like they
just made up a law and I meanlet people adopt more AI into
(48:26):
their lives and then realizelike, oh, I'm not gonna use AI
because it's just wrong.
Speaker 2 (48:30):
I mean, if you look at like Google Trends, ai, chat,
gbt, open AI, it's gone downover the last few months.
It was a big topic discussionbut the trend seems to have gone
down significantly.
But let people try andintegrate it into their day to
day and they'll be disappointedand say I'm not gonna go chat
anymore because it's wrong.
They also don't care aboutgiving wrong information.
(48:52):
Doesn't say like take this witha grain of salt, but XYZ law,
number whatever and bookwhatever you know.
Speaker 1 (49:01):
Yeah, like just yeah.
And actually the same client.
He has a car that's on the lakebehind us and we live off the
grid.
He lives off, he was, so I wasgonna install his off the grid
system for him and I wanna knowwhat size battery bank.
And so I'm like he's got afridge that uses this much power
and they're gonna use a currigand well, pump like three or
four other things.
(49:21):
So, based on this energyconsumption, what size battery
bank?
And oh my God, the battery bankwas 10 times as big as our home
here and I knew that because Iknow how big ours is and I know
what the chat was recommendingwith the calculation that it
wrote out the calculation for me, but it was 10 times as big.
I'm like, hey, chat, and I justsaid conversatially I think
(49:44):
that looks too big.
Can you check again and checkhis bags?
Like, oh, yeah, I made amiscalculation, my apologies, my
apologies, but had I just liketrusted chat with its first
answer, because it's a computerand it knows everything, I would
have went out and bought thislike million dollar battery bank
is like well, that's what Itold I needed, right.
(50:05):
And so, yeah, I think I love it, I use it a lot, but you it's
gotta be used as a tool andyou've got.
You have to have a foundationbefore you use it or it's gonna
it's gonna run you off the railssooner or later.
Speaker 2 (50:17):
Yeah, People are nervous about it taking over
their jobs.
Maybe depends what you do, butdefinitely not anytime soon.
Speaker 1 (50:25):
No, no, no.
Well cool, If our audiencewanted to work.
I don't know if you could helpsomebody, if you've got an offer
or how people can reach you,but what do you have for people
listening?
Speaker 2 (50:35):
We do SEO for in-house marketing teams that
wanna make SEO less annoying.
No specific offer.
If you wanna find us, you canGoogle break the web.
We're also atbreakthewwebagency Cool.
Speaker 1 (50:49):
And that's back in the day.
I used to get spam emails fromSEO companies and I would in
India, mostly right and I wouldtry to find them with Google
searches and I normally couldn'tfind them.
And this is when I had moretime than sense.
I like I just spent the lastfive minutes like trying to find
(51:10):
you with Google and I can'tfind you.
So if you're not doing SEO foryour own company, then I don't
think I want you representing me.
But break the web it was thefirst search, it was.
Speaker 2 (51:25):
Yeah, and companies are spot.
We own the service mark forthat, the legal trademark for
that word.
But yeah, I mean, it's easy toneglect your own marketing when
you offer marketing as a service, and it happens first of all
from like.
It's been a couple of monthssince we published a brand new
blog post.
We have our writer going in thenext two weeks and start
(51:46):
getting another.
One can't neglect it.
You can't get complacent.
Speaker 1 (51:50):
Right, and that's.
I spoke with that in my lastpodcast.
We were saying how, like yousaid, business is good, right,
business is good.
You're just cruising along andthen, like the woman I was
speaking with last week, we bothlost our like biggest client
out of the blue.
Like he retired, my clientretired, hers died.
And then we're like, oh shit,that's a big gap in our revenue
(52:13):
because we weren't marketing forourselves anymore.
We were just like coast alongon easy street and so you can
never, you never take your footoff the gas pedal there for sure
.
Speaker 2 (52:22):
Yeah, actually just made a LinkedIn post on
something similar this morningabout one URL being a primary
organic traffic driver and ifsomething would happen to that
one URL, your whole trafficmight drop and then the metrics
look like it sucks.
Speaker 1 (52:37):
So spread out and diversify your traffic sources
and I guess even spread out anddiversify and like say, don't
take your, you don't have tohave your foot on all the way
down on the gas, but you need tohave it on the pedal.
You need to be always you know,always moving forward.
Speaker 2 (52:52):
Yeah, cruisin with a little tap.
Speaker 1 (52:54):
Yes, yeah, yeah, well , anyway.
Well, thanks, jason.
It was great having you on theshow.
I learned a lot about SEO thatI didn't know before, and you
seem like a cool guy, and so ifthere are any in-house marketing
agencies that need help, theyshould definitely reach out to
you.
Speaker 2 (53:07):
I appreciate the time , Mike.
Speaker 1 (53:08):
This was great and that is a wrap for this episode
of Because Business is Personal.
Thanks for joining us and don'tforget to take advantage of my
two special offers.
First, you can get a free copyof my best-selling book,
empathic Marketing you Just Payfor the Shipping.
Or you can have 50% discount onmy Gap Analysis session with
(53:31):
the coupon code podcast Justhead over to
wwwBecauseBusinessIsPersonalcomor check the show notes for
details.
If you've enjoyed today'sepisode, please don't forget to
follow, subscribe, leave areview and share the podcast
with others who might benefit.
Your support means the world tous, so stay tuned for our next
(53:54):
episode, where we'll continue todelve into the intersection of
empathy and marketing strategy.
Remember, because Business isIndeed Personal, every
connection counts.
Until next time, see you then.
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