#122 - Creator Wizard: Justin Moore (Founder)

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Justin Moore is a Sponsorship Coach & the founder of Creator Wizard, a school & community that teaches you how to find & negotiate your dream brand deals so that you stop leaving thousands on the table. Along with his wife April, he has been a full-time creator for over 7 years and has personally made over $3M working with brands. He has also run an influencer marketing agency for over 5 years that has helped other creators earn an additional $2M. Justin brings a very unique perspective because not only has he been a creator in the trenches doing sponsorships for years but by running an agency, he has insider knowledge of how big brands choose which influencers to partner with and why they pass on others. Justin's mission is to enable creators big and small to land 1 million paid brand partnerships by 2032.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Today we play golf.
Let me show you how we do it inthe pros. Welcome to Behind the
Golf Brand podcast. I nevermissed with the Seven Iron, a
conversation with some of themost interesting innovators and
entrepreneurs behind thebiggest names in golf. My
friends were the golf clubs. Ilived on the golf course, I
lived on the driving rein fromPro Talk . You should learn

(00:21):
something from each and everysingle round. You play to fun
from on and off the green. Whywould you play golf if you
don't play it for money? Justlet me put the ball in a hole.
This

Speaker 2 (00:30):
Is Behind the Golf Brand podcast with Paul Libert
tore . What's up guys? Welcometo the Behind the Golf Brand
podcast. Today I have one of myreally good friends, Justin
Moore. He actually, he goes bythe Creator Wizard and he's
helped me out a ton. He works alots of brands, a lot of
creators, and he's been in theworld and it's really

(00:51):
interesting. Today I wanna talkabout kind of his take on
what's happening in the golfindustry in terms of like the
creator industry and why it'sthe way it is and how this is
nothing new we've seen in otherindustries. 'cause I mean,
Justin's been doing himself fora long time and awesome,
awesome guy. So I'm reallyexcited to have him on the
show.

Speaker 3 (01:08):
What's going on, Paul? Thanks for having me,
man. Looking forward to this.

Speaker 2 (01:11):
See you . I know I've met you. I bet you
probably even know this. Well,you probably I'm too .

Speaker 3 (01:16):
I dunno .

Speaker 2 (01:16):
So like ,

Speaker 3 (01:17):
Like what , what was it ?

Speaker 2 (01:18):
My , my , uh, the guy who mentored me, like, he's
like, somebody was talkingabout said , brought up your
name, and I'm like, who's that?
So I like did a bunch ofresearch and I was like, he's
like, oh yeah, I'm friends withhim. And I'm like, seriously?
It's like, you know Kevin Ispito

Speaker 3 (01:33):
Yeah. Oh , yes , dude. Yes. I remember he
mentioned that he had , uh,like, name dropped me when he
was talking to you. That is, Iforgot about that. That's
hilarious.

Speaker 2 (01:41):
Yeah, so that was like in January and I was like,
what the heck? Yeah . So that'scrazy. I mean, he is blowing up
a lot on YouTube. Dude. He

Speaker 3 (01:48):
Is man. He's, he's my idol. I always look at him,
I'm like, dude, I need to like,like get one ounce of your
creative genius.

Speaker 2 (01:54):
Yeah . I like, I was at his house, like, what was
that , 2020? No, 19 rightbefore Covid . Oh , 20. I'm
always confused now. And likewe were talk like before,
before like the big wave hitand I was like, holy

Speaker 3 (02:06):
Smokes dude. But

Speaker 2 (02:07):
So do you play golf?
That's

Speaker 3 (02:09):
The first question I do. I I would say, this is kind
of embarrassing to say on agolf, I dabble, I'm , I'm gonna
say I dabble. Like, is that, isthat appropriate? Can I say
that here? Yeah. I dab, I playwhen I can. I play with
friends, but , uh, I , uh, I'mgonna go ahead and say I'm not
, uh, uh, I'm not too great,but I enjoy it, . We're
all

Speaker 2 (02:26):
Great peers . So where, where

Speaker 3 (02:29):
Are you located then? I'm based in the , uh,
San Francisco Bay area.

Speaker 2 (02:34):
So there's a lot of nice golf courses around there.
There is, right ?

Speaker 3 (02:36):
There's some awesome ones. Yeah, there's some
really, really nice ones. Ilive kind of in the suburbs
outside the city, about 45minutes, and we've got some
awesome , uh, I kind of live upin the hills, and so we've got
some really nice , um, reallynice ones. That's

Speaker 2 (02:48):
Cool. I guess my first question to you is like,
kind of what is yourbackground? Like, how did you
get into the creator world?

Speaker 3 (02:56):
Well, my, my real background is I, I
professionally, I'm an engineerby trade, so I went to UCLA for
engineering and I outta school,I went into medical devices,
actually, of all things . Um, so completely opposite
from the creator economy andall that stuff. But what
happened was my, my wife orgirlfriend at the time , uh,
April, she started makingYouTube videos for fun on the

(03:18):
side. And this is me again. Iwas like in the corporate world
climbing the, like , what yearthis corporate career ladder
and all that stuff. Uh , thiswas 2009 when she started her
first YouTube channel. Um, andso this was to date myself a
little bit. This was way beforethey even had a partner
program. You could not makemoney on AdSense back when we
started, basically. Whoa . Um,and so it very much was like a

(03:41):
hobby for a long time for her.
Um, and then, so her firstchannel was all around kind of
beauty cosmetics , uh, you know, uh, like makeup, that type of
stuff. 'cause she really likedthat, didn't have any other
friends in her real life thatwanted to talk about that with
her. And so she started makingYouTube videos. Then what
started to happen was firstbrands started reaching out,
offering to send free stuff,right? And so initially it

(04:03):
reminds you we were like, atour early twenties at this
point, and we were like, shewas like , yes, free stuff,
right? You know, it's like, youknow, don't have to spend money
on beauty products, which wereexpensive, right? Um, and so
she just started getting boxesand boxes of like free hair
curlers and, you know, curlingirons and all this stuff. And
she was stoked about it, right?
But it really was when thefirst brand reached out,
offering to compensate her topay her, that was like a big

(04:26):
eye-opening moment for usbecause we were just like
always used to looking at thisas like, just for fun. Like we
were doing , you know? It was,it was never something like,
oh, actually we could makemoney doing this. It's crazy.
And so I remember the veryfirst deal, dude, it was a ,
uh, Korean skincare company,paid her $700 a month for six
months to make two YouTubevideo, two inclusions in a

(04:48):
YouTube video permit . And likefor us, dude, that was so much
money. Like, it's still kind ofa lot of money, like, you know,
for our very first deal, right?
And so that was the biginflection point for our
mindset was like, wow, what ifwhat we thought immediately,
what if we could find 10brands, you know, to like do
this sa same type of thing. Um,and so that was what led us

(05:10):
down the , the path of, youknow, we started other
channels, started a cookingchannel, started a vlogging
channel , um, you know,different social platforms. Um,
and, you know, fast forward ,you know, to to to now we've
done over 500 sponsorshipspersonally over the last decade
as creators. Um, you know,about around the 2015
timeframe. Um, I started , uh,you know, my, my business brain

(05:34):
by that time I was in , uh,business school at night, and I
was thinking, man, things aregoing really great on social
media for us right now, butlike, what if everything
crashes and burns? Like, that'salways like, I'm always
thinking worst case scenario,right? And so , um, I was like,
let me actually leverage allthe knowledge that we've gained
as creators, but also kinda myprofessional background, which
is like project management,product management, et cetera.
So like, what if I got dealsfor other creators? That was

(05:56):
what I thought, okay, let me,let me start an agency here
where I can bring brandpartnerships to other creators.
And so ran that for about sevenyears, you know, paid out
millions of dollars to othercreators. Um, and so those are,
that, those are kind of two,the two yin and yang of my
personality of being in thetrenches for many years doing
deals, but also having been onthe other side of it in the big
boardrooms with these bigbrands and big advertisers,

(06:18):
helping them decide how tospend millions of dollars , uh,
across hundreds of creators.
You know, it's like a verydifferent conversation. So ,
um, we could , we could diginto that a little bit more,
but those two things are kindawhat led me to, to doing
creator education, which iswhat I do now. When

Speaker 2 (06:31):
You guys are making money, you're probably like,
holy crap, right? Like, this isone , one of the thing that
Justin has this course iscalled Gifted to be paid ,
gifted to paid, right? Orsomething like that. How's

Speaker 3 (06:40):
That go ? Yeah, so I have one course called Gifted
to Paid, and then another onecalled Brand Deal Wizard .

Speaker 2 (06:44):
Mm-Hmm .
. Yeah. So withgifted to paid, right? And then
I think that's like a bigdisconnect with a lot of
creators, right? Now's like,everyone thinks it's so cool in
the beginning, they get freestuff. You're like, oh, that's
cool. Mm-Hmm , .
And then you realize the huge,like, you know, part of that
deal. It's like, okay, you cando all that work. And it's
like, by the time you do allthe math, it's like, you could
have bought 20 of those things,you know? So I mean, what, what

(07:04):
do you recommend to peoplelike, I mean, that would like
to get into content creating?
Like what's the, what's, what'sthe best way of like doing
that?

Speaker 3 (07:14):
That's a good question. And , and to your
point around , um, you know,getting the free stuff and how
cool that feels like it, thatwas definitely for , for us
early on, it felt likevalidation, Paul, like, it , it
was like we were doing all thiswork, putting in all this
energy, and then we finally, abrand finally noticed us like

(07:35):
that . That's how it felt,right? It was like, wow. And
like, and also it felt cool,like relative to our peers,
like, oh, we are beingacknowledged, right? And all
our other friends are like,seeing that we're doing cool
stuff like that. That feelsgood early on. It feels like
validation, especially if youhave people in your real life
who are looking down on whatyou're doing. Friends, family,
oh, you're,

Speaker 2 (07:55):
Everybody does that.
They're like, that's

Speaker 3 (07:57):
Stupid. You're a, a podcaster. You know , like all
this type of thing. It's like,and so it's like it for , for
someone to acknowledge you andoh , here's free stuff. It
feels good. And so you're,you're that the tendency is to
wanna give away the farm. It'slike, okay, sure, yeah, you ,
you , they say jump, you sayhow high? It's like, oh yeah,
10 posts , sure, for this $20,you know, golf accessory like,
sounds great. Send it over. Um,and so I think that's ,

Speaker 2 (08:18):
I I did that for years. Yeah . , you
guys understand , like, likeJustin like changed my life.
Like, for real. It's like,there's very few people that
have changed my life. Justin'sone of those people because
like going from that mindset toa completely different mindset
is like a huge jump, right?
Yeah. And especially when youthink those first couple of
years, you think you're cool,right? Like , oh, I'm so cool,

(08:39):
I have the newest ex , youknow, and it's like, but when
you have like a hundred newexes and it doesn't even, like,
you gotta pay your bills,right? Mm-Hmm. , I
mean ,

Speaker 3 (08:48):
Mm-Hmm.
. Yeah. Freeproduct doesn't pay the bills,
that's for sure. And, and tokind of go back to your initial
question of like, people who,you know, may want to start
creating content , um, thefirst thing that I need to
everyone to hear is that , um,the , the pervasive attitude
that I think everyone has islike, oh, it's so saturated,
right? All , there's all thesepeople talking about what I

(09:10):
want to talk about. There's noroom for me. Like, I , how am I
gonna break through? There's somany people , uh, trying to do
this, et cetera. Um, and I'mhere to say that that's
complete and utter bss becausethere is always going to be a
lane for you to share your ownperspective, your own voice,
your own personal lifeexperiences. Um, and it
obviously helps if you havesome spiky points of view,

(09:33):
, you know, things thatare somewhat polarizing or not
for polarizing's sake, but likethat you actually take a stance
on something that , uh, there'sthis person, I , I follow, her
name is West Cow . She has thisarticle called Spiky Spiky
Points of View. It's like youhave a spiky point of view, not
just for the sake of it, but beyou really truly believe this.
For example, one of my spikypoints of view is that I
believe 99% of creators shouldnot have managers, talent

(09:55):
managers, right? You shouldactually, this is your own
business. You should, why runit yourself as ACEO? Um, a lot
of different reasons. But , um,number one is you're building
their Rolodex, not yours. Andin the age of , um, infinite ,
uh, ability for you to, like,the , the beauty of being a
creator is there's no longergatekeepers, right? Like any

(10:18):
brand, any company can slide inyour inbox or your dms and say,
Hey, let's collaborate.
Contrast that to the , thetraditional media of yesteryear
where everything had to gothrough the talent agent.
Everything was routed throughthat person. Um, and , um, in
the world of talent management,when it's digital natives like
creators, they are oftentimesthere's all sorts of other ,

(10:41):
um, incentives that I believeare actually, can sometimes be
misaligned. Um, so to kind ofgo rewind the clock , um, I
have, part of this is coloredby the fact that I have kind of
like P-P-T-S-D from our firstforays into management. Um,
early on with our YouTubechannels, there was these
things called multi-channelnetworks, MCNs , um, that

(11:02):
proliferated right afterYouTube kind of blew up in the
early years. And what theseMCNs did is they forged all of
these really kind of predatoryagreements with early
YouTubers, where they weretaking a huge amount of their
AdSense earnings each monthwith the promise of, oh, we're
gonna bring you opportunities,we're gonna get you brand
deals, we're gonna do all thesethings. Um, and a lot of it did

(11:24):
not turn out to be the case. Alot of it was snake oil and was
preying on the fact that no onehad any idea what we were
doing. Like we had no idea,right? And so it was like,
sure, oh, you're gonna, man ,you're gonna help me figure
this space out? Sure. Here ,let me sign, sign this away .
And so we had varying levels oflike, terrible experiences, a
few awesome experiences, but ,um, I have so many friends in
this industry who have beenscrewed over the years because

(11:45):
they didn't advocate forthemselves . They just said,
okay, I, I just wanna focus onthe creative stuff. I'm just
gonna highlight , I just wannafind someone to like, handle,
handle the, the business stufffor me. I'll, I'll do the
creative stuff, right? And, andmy drum that I've been beating
over the last few years is likethat. If you have that
attitude, it's going to bevery, very hard for you to have
a sustainable and long-termcareer as a, as a , uh, a

(12:07):
creator in this, in thisindustry . Um, and so like that
, that , that I could go in , Icould talk for like three hours
about why I think this is ,

Speaker 2 (12:14):
This is awesome , because

Speaker 3 (12:15):
It's very

Speaker 2 (12:15):
True. I mean,

Speaker 3 (12:17):
Yeah ,

Speaker 2 (12:17):
The industry in the world of golf, like the
industry's really changed a lotin the last couple years. Like,
I, I mean, I mostly started mychannel two years ago, but my
YouTube channel up everythingelse. But what I was selling
Justin talking before this showis like in the last, you know,
nine months, we've seen a lotof very, very, very big brand
deals with like Callaway andGood, good . And, you know, no

(12:37):
laying up has a big brand deal.
All these have these huge branddeals. And it's almost like
what I'm seeing, because I'veworked with a lot of brands, is
the big boys are gobbling upthe influencers, is the big
influencers, and like tying 'emup right away. And then there's
no, like, it's like, you areonly gonna use our product.
You're like, and it's, itwasn't like that before. It was
like everyone was kinda likethe wild west and was kind of

(12:58):
doing as much as they possiblycould, but I, I just find like,
that's so interesting becauseit was never like that till
this year. And it's like, andthen it's like they all start
fighting for control, right?
And we're not talking like,some have millions of
subscribers, but some don't,you know, that'd been a hundred
thousand. Like, and then theother thing is too on this is
I've seen in the last, I wouldsay a year and a half, the

(13:20):
mid-size brands or themid-size, third party retailers
are going after the up andcomers because they know that
they need to grab those guysfor gals before the big guys
do. But is that common, like,in other industries? Because I
mean, I know you've worked in alot of different worlds, right?
Yeah . I don't know . I mean,it's all interesting to me.

Speaker 3 (13:40):
I have, and, and, and it's, it's funny because ,
um, I actually just released a,a new YouTube video today
around this topic of like, whyit's difficult to get brands in
tra quote unquote traditionalindustries to , um, con like
find the value in working withcreators, not just traditional
celebrities or athletes or thistype of thing. Like what is the

(14:00):
value in working with, withsomeone who has a presence on
social media? Um, and , uh,you're absolutely right. Like
I, I have seen this, it'shappen over and over and over.
In fact, one of my , um,longest , uh, running clients,
his name's also Paul , um, he'sin the , uh, long , he, he,
okay, so he has a podcast wherehe teaches lawn care
professionals how to grow theirbusinesses, and he's getting

(14:23):
hundreds of thousands ofdownloads a month on his
podcast. And so , um, superniche, but he also was running
into a , that very similarproblem where talking with the
likes of, you know, some of thelargest tractor companies and
hedge trimmers and mowers, andlike, all these stuff, and
they're always just like, nowwe're running TV ads, we're
doing magazine ads, we're doingthe traditional, you know, kind
of direct to home , you know,type mailers to , you know,

(14:44):
contractors, et cetera, etcetera , et cetera. It was just
like banging against the wallfor years and years and years.
And then the floodgates opened.
What happened was all it tookwas like one domino to fall
where one of the largest, youknow, kind of biggest companies
in this space , um, decided tokind of start dabbling with
influencer marketing, workingwith creators. And then what
happens? Everyone's lookinglike this, right? If you , for

(15:06):
those of you listening andcan't see this, it's like
you're looking side to side ,right? It's like, oh, what is
my competitor doing over here?
Oh, oh, if they're doinginfluencer marketing, then
that, there must be somethingto that, right? And so this is
oftentimes the advice that Ican give to , um, creators who
are in traditional niches andindustries is like, it, it
takes a while to chisel away.
And if you have this mindset ofjust like sewing the scenes,

(15:28):
doing the education and, andunderstanding that it , it will
take a little while for the ,for you to be able to reap
that. Um, those are the typesof people who ultimately break
through . Because what happenswhen you position yourself as
the, as the educator, thethought leader, the , uh, you
know, the authority on thistype of space, yeah, it may
take a while, but when theyultimately do decide to write
those checks, you're gonna bethe first name at the top of

(15:48):
the list because you were kindof putting in the work,
providing value the whole time.

Speaker 2 (15:52):
I, I just, I was amazed, honestly. I was like,
holy, the , the deals that arebeing made are like, not like a
normal, you know, oh, it's a 50grand or 20 grand, you're
talking like millions ofdollars. Mm-Hmm.
. Like , and the other thingI'm seeing too is you're seeing
a lot of , um, what's the word?
Consolidation, I guess a betterway of saying where it's like,
you know, we'll get a bunch ofcreators together and we'll
call it X, you know, and then Xwill be then sponsored by

(16:16):
ginormous company, right? Right. And it's almost like, is
that, is that something you'veseen a lot too in other
industries? Like, you know,that you've been in

Speaker 3 (16:23):
For sure. I mean, I think that the all betts are
off. I think when traditionalbrands start through splashing
around some of these largemarketing dollars, it look, you
know , it's in their bestinterest to gobble up market
share and share of voice. Youknow, it's like, they just
wanna , if they're able to, ifthey decide, look , okay ,
we've got, you know , I , doyou actually know this
statistic? Like, how much doesCallaway spend , uh, a year on

(16:44):
like advertising? Do you know?

Speaker 2 (16:46):
Probably a bazillion dollars. I don't know .

Speaker 3 (16:47):
Yeah . Yeah . I

Speaker 2 (16:48):
Mean , they own top now too, right?

Speaker 3 (16:51):
Billion that , yeah . Let's just say, let's just
say they spend $50 million ayear on advertising. I don't
know, I'm making it up, right?
Um , yeah . Like, and of those50 million a certain, you know,
let's say 20 million isbroadcast, 20 million is, you
know, out of home print, youknow, you know, whatever,
putting aside sponsorshipdollars for athletes and stuff.

(17:11):
Um, and then previously maybelike digital partnerships with
like creators and influencersand stuff like that, maybe
represented 1% ofthose, of that overall budget,
right? But if you move into,let's say for 2024, they're
planning for their budget fortheir calendar year, and they
decide, okay, we're gonna up itfrom one to 10%. Like, that's a
huge , that's a huge amount of, of dollars. And the thing I

(17:32):
always like, because I ran thisagency for many years, like,
one thing I always like to talkabout is like, it's like really
hard to deploy lots ofmarketing capital. Like, it ,
it's difficult, really.

Speaker 2 (17:42):
Uh ,

Speaker 3 (17:42):
And so like you, yeah, you think like, oh, man,
like it would be hard to spendmoney, but no, you can't just
like walk into, you know, an adagency and be like, Hey, I
wanna spend $10 million, likein the next, like , it's hard.
Like , it's hard to figure outlike places to , to , to park
that money. And so onephenomenon that I actually have
seen to your point, was whenthese lar really large
advertisers, advertisers decidethat a very specific marketing

(18:05):
tactic is worthwhile, they'llgo big. They'll be like, okay,
yeah. Like we , we we'renormally spending a hundred
million or 50 million orwhatever. Like, we're gonna
spend millions of dollars doingthis now because we, we believe
in this, in this movingforward. And so , um, that's
why you sometimes you'll see itgo from like zero to like a
hundred or zero to 60real quickly , uh, in some of
the dollars that they'resplashing around. Because when
they do ultimately decide to ,um, have this be a meaningful

(18:28):
part of their strategy , um, tokind of go big or go home,

Speaker 2 (18:31):
I mean, for somebody who's starting out as a
creator, and let's say , I mean, we use golfers, you know, do
that for example. Like, wouldyou say, if you're beginning
out, is it good to be gifted oryou just start charging people?
Or like, what would you say ifsomeone was brand new at being
a creator?

Speaker 3 (18:50):
You know, I , I would say , um, two things.
Number one, we came up in thevery early years where it was
always content first. It wasalways audience first. Like,
how can, how can we make greatcontent? How can we serve them?
Um, but the generation that'scoming up on social media right
now, or folks who want to startdabbling with it right now,
there's not the same stigma ofmonetizing as there was when we

(19:14):
started, right? It's, it's somuch more accepted now to do
brand partnerships, to havepaid communities and courses
and coaching and all thesestuff that you can do. And so
what I always like to say islike , um, you don't have to go
through the , um, , youknow, the like walk on glass
for five years without gettingpaid a dime. Like, I , like,
we, like a lot of us earlycreators did. And that's a

(19:36):
beautiful thing. Like, you cancome into this being like,
okay, if , if I can figure outa, like a, let's, like maybe
it's a sub niche within golf,like I'm gonna help players who
have had injuries , um, figureout how to improve their game,
or something like that's gonnabe my niche or something. Um,
then there's a lot of ways inwhich you can serve that
particular segment, right?
Whether it's courses orcoaching or whatever to like

(19:57):
cater to them. Um, and I thinkthat that's actually a really,
really positive thing. And itjust comes down to like serving
your audience, serving yourcustomer. And so , um, I
actually think that creatorswho start now have a leg up
where you could sit and think,okay, like, okay, yes, this is
gonna be my content strategy.
These are the types of thingsthat I'm going to post about,
but also I can see in sixmonths or in 12 months, these

(20:18):
are the types of income streamsthat I can envision. Yeah,
maybe it's sponsorships ormaybe it's courses or whatever.
And like sitting and thinkingabout that is actually useful
because it po potentially couldinform the types of people that
you wanna serve with yourcontent , uh, at the beginning.
I mean,

Speaker 2 (20:33):
I think now too, there's, there's so many more
streams of , of revenuesources, right? Because like
back then it was just likeYouTube only , right? Or a
website. Mm-Hmm. . And then it's kind of evolved
into, I mean, Instagram andTikTok . And, you know, I mean,
one thing that's reallysurprised me is just while,
even though in the last coupleyears there's been a lot of
people have come up veryquickly just because Mm-Hmm .
, you know, they, they can platform jump,

(20:54):
right? Let's call it. Is that,is that something you recommend
to people? Or do you , like ,you think you should start out
your, you know, I'm , I'm on Xplatform, and then you dabble
on the other two? Or what wouldyou recommend to people that
are wanting ,

Speaker 3 (21:05):
I would say the quickest way to get burnt out
is to try to attack allplatforms at once when you're
starting out, because it'sgonna feel really
unsustainable. The one , theone caveat I will say though is
that , um, we are now in atime, which is unlike any other
time in the history of socialmedia, where you can create a
single piece of short formcontent and publish it across a

(21:28):
bevy of platforms withoutbasically changing anything.
Instagram reels, TikTok , uh,you know, YouTube shorts, you
could post stuff on Pinterestidea pins now on Reddit on X,
you can get paid to post onTwitter slash x now . So like
the same asset, you canbasically cross post it in a
bunch of different places. Soif I was giving any advice to
any person coming up today, itwould be short form content.

(21:49):
That would be where I wouldstart. Um, that's the path of
least resistance. It's theeasiest , uh, to, you know, go
from idea to finished piece ofcontent. Um, what I will say
though is that , um, there isvalue in, in doubling down and
focusing on one platform tobegin with. Because as you
know, like every platform kindof has their subtleties, right?

(22:09):
Like a , AAP you could crosspost the same video, the same
short form piece of contentacross a bunch of different
platforms, and you could get ahundred thousand views on
YouTube shorts and like athousand on TikTok and

Speaker 2 (22:20):
Sometimes Yeah , two on TikTok .

Speaker 3 (22:21):
Yeah . Yeah. It's like very like mystifying, like
why would that, how could thatpossibly be? Right? But then
you start to double click andbe like, okay, well actually
people on TikTok prefer itlooking a little bit like less
professional. They don't likethe super glossy look . It
looks like some you're justsitting in your bedroom and you
fired it up your form . Peopleprefer that type of format. Oh
. Or content quality there. So,so there is like subtleties to
it. And so what I always say islike, don't just necessarily

(22:42):
pick the platform that youlove. You have to pick the
platform where the audiencethat you wanna serve loves
that. That's what you should befocusing on. Um, and so , uh,
going back to how do you know ,I think it is a little bit
difficult early on when youdon't have any sort of
audience, but like, likehere's, here's a good example
of like my friend Paul, right?
Uh, who runs the, the GreenIndustry podcast. He, his

(23:04):
audience of who he wanted toserve is like, these are guys
who were on lawnmowers all daylong, . And so for him,
they're

Speaker 2 (23:10):
Listening to stuff Yeah. They're like, already
Yeah. Wanna grow theirbusiness. Yeah .

Speaker 3 (23:13):
So like, perfect ,

Speaker 2 (23:13):
I

Speaker 3 (23:14):
Got a , I in the, I should start a podcast. That
that was his, the, the , the ,the genesis of that idea. But
because he thought of of , ofit was him, it was like, I , I
, I'm listening to podcasts allday long 'cause I'm on the
mower. Like I , I , I gottaserve them in that way.
Contrast that with being like,you know, they're not gonna be
opening up their phone andlooking, watching YouTube
videos probably , um, whenthey're, when they're doing

(23:35):
their job, right? And so it'slike, I think that can be a , a
, a helpful question to thinkof, of like, okay, well, let me
think about my audience andkind of what they're , what's
going on in their life and howthey consume content. And, and
an easy way to do it is justlike, if you have five or six
people in your life, actualreal life, who you think would
find value in the types ofstuff you wanna post about, ask
'em . be like, Hey, I'mthinking about doing this. Like

(23:56):
, um, tell me about yourcontent consumption behavior.
Like, like when do you watchsocial media? What platforms
are you on? What types ofcontent are you watching? Um,
if I were to cr start creatingcontent about this type of
thing, what would be yourpreferred way to consume that
content? Is it a video? Is it ashort form? Is it a podcast?
You know, if you wanna read it,you know, like that , that's

(24:16):
been another really interesting, um, uh, eye-opening thing for
me, Paul. Is it like , um, I'vereally doubled down on my
written blog, really , becauselike really? Yeah, dude,
because like, I, I've , I'verealized like, you know, if I
was looking, analyzing searchtraffic on Google, like if you
go, I am the number one resultfor how much to charge for a
brand deal because people aresearching for this stuff,

(24:39):
right? It's like I , they'renot necessarily thinking, oh ,
lemme go to YouTube, bro .
Lemme go to TikTok ,

Speaker 2 (24:42):
Watch a video about some dumb. Like talk about ,

Speaker 3 (24:44):
Yeah, let me let Google this and see what
articles I can do . So

Speaker 2 (24:47):
Right now,

Speaker 3 (24:48):
Yeah. And so, and so part of it, my content strategy
over the last few years, andagain, this was like version
two, 3.0 of my strategy islike, okay, how can I repurpose
my content that I've alreadycreated , um, in written form?

Speaker 2 (25:00):
How do you do that?

Speaker 3 (25:01):
Uh, I mean, download the transcript now, now , like,
if , if I was doing it now, theplaybook would be download the
trans transcript from YouTube,use chat GPT and or some
freelancers to help merepackage this into a blog
post. Embed the video on theblog post. Call it in , clean
it

Speaker 2 (25:15):
Up. Yeah. Up .
Upload it . Yep .

Speaker 3 (25:17):
Clean it up.

Speaker 2 (25:18):
I knew you were gonna say that.

Speaker 3 (25:19):
Yeah, ,

Speaker 2 (25:20):
You understand , like , Justin is one of the
smartest guys I know. Like, Iguess tell the audience what ,
I mean, tell the audience howmuch you and your wife has made
since you started, like yourstuff. Yeah . Like, this is no
joke you guys.

Speaker 3 (25:31):
So actually I was just , uh, interviewed by , uh,
insider , uh, for , uh, thing,and they, they actually made me
send them proof of theincome really to to fact check
it. Yeah. Because I , you know, I talk about this a lot, but
, um, we made, yeah , four ,4.5 million working with brands
since, since 2013, since Istarted keeping QuickBooks. So
it's probably more than that.
'cause I wasn't , wasn't goodat like, keeping books back

(25:53):
then. But yeah, it's been 4.5million and, and again, paid
out millions to other creators, uh, over the years , uh, as
well. So it's been , um, yeah,man, it's been, it's been a
huge part of our, our revenuestreams, our family income. Um,

Speaker 2 (26:06):
You guys are doing lots of things, right? Because
I mean, like, I took Justin'sCreator Woods course , which
we'll talk about in a minute,minute earlier this year. But I
mean, you guys are on Amazon,you have your YouTube channel,
you have a really big, I mean,you and your wife had that
channel together, that's reallybig too. I mean, you have a lot
of different stuff. You do livestreaming, and it's like all

(26:26):
kinds of like, I'm just golf,right? Pretty much. So it's
like they're doing like reallycool stuff. Like, what was it ,
what was that thing you guysdoing ? Went to this resort or
something? Was that withNickelodeon or who was that?

Speaker 3 (26:38):
You guys going ?

Speaker 2 (26:39):
Yeah ,

Speaker 3 (26:39):
I mean we've, we've had just some awesome, amazing
opportunities over the , overthe, the years, dude. Like ,
um, yeah, like we went to , um,a , uh, a , it was called , uh,
Azo Beach Resort in Cancunrecently to kind of showcase
what they've , uh, you know,all the amenities that they
have there. So, you know, part,part of the , part of the , um,
cool thing about our journey isthat we've shared so much of

(27:01):
our life. You know, we shared ,um, you know, our relationship,
we've shared our, our marriage,we've shared kind of our
pregnancy journey and raisingour kids. So it's like, we
haven't been in like, just aspecific niche the whole time,
like you are. Um, and sothere's, there's pros and cons
to that, right? Because ifyou're, if you're talking about
everything, oftentimes you'retalking about nothing like that
, that is a danger of like,just being a, oh , general,

(27:22):
like lifestyle influence . I'mgonna talk about everything,
you know, this type of thingthat is a da that is dangerous
for sure. Um, but , uh, it hasafforded us the ability to
enter into a lot of different ,um, verticals, right? In terms
of family and travel ,hospitality,

Speaker 4 (27:36):
Food .

Speaker 3 (27:37):
Yeah. So, so, so a lot of, you know, the , the ,
the advantage is , is thatwe've built up all these
amazing relationships over theyears with brands and, and
especially advertising agencieswho represent a lot of brands.
And so if we do good work forone of their clients, then
they're gonna immediately putus in the deck for their other
clients because , oh, we justworked with April and Justin,
they are so amazing. We shoulddefinitely work with them again

(27:58):
on this other new project. So,yeah, I mean, it's been, I I I
will say though, I, I wanna belike totally like vulnerable
here for a minute, is thatlike, we've had some big
successes, but we've also hadsome really big failures, dude,
really ? Like we have, yeah.
Oh, for sure, dude. Like we, wetried to launch a paid
membership in 20 14, 20 13. Um,so, so what happened was, like

(28:21):
back in the day, one of thepieces of content, or the
formats of content that we weregetting, hundreds of thousands
of views per video, dude, waswe would do these relationship
advice videos. 'cause people, alot of people came to us and
like, we have a , I think my ,you know, my wife and I, we've
been together 17 years now, sowe must be doing something
right. But like back in theday, like we , um, talked a lot
about what we view as like someof the, the pillars of like a

(28:43):
successful relationship inmarriage. And people came to us
for that. And so what happenedwas we had a company approach
us and they were like, Hey,everyone is coming to you for
relationship advice. Let's makea relationship membership,
right? Like where there'strainings and all this stuff.
And we were like, yeah, thatsounds awesome. Like, honestly,
it came from a place of like,we were excited about this, of
like helping improve people'srelationships. And what the

(29:03):
biggest mistake that we madewas that we went into a vacuum,
a cave, we told no one aboutthe fact that we were doing
this. And six months later wemove emerged and we were like,
ta-da , here's our $20 a monthmembership. Like, join. And
everyone's like, it was justlike the worst who reaction you
can possibly New phone. Yeah .
Worst . Yeah . New , new phone.

(29:24):
Who dis It was like worstpossible reaction. Yeah .

Speaker 4 (29:28):
Um ,

Speaker 3 (29:28):
And we got flamed, we got absolutely roasted sell
out . Like, how dare you? This,this whole, it's been a long
con, you're trying to likemoney grab all this stuff. And
it was really, really humblingfor us, dude . And it was
really, really demoralizing.
And we were, were, and so we,you know, kind of tried try ,
you know, tried to limp along.
Uh, you know, we did it for awhile and , and we actually had
some amazing transformations inthere, but ultimately decided

(29:50):
to, to wind it down. 'cause it,you know, didn't have the I
impact that we hoped it would.
And so we kind of licked ourwounds for a couple years. Um,
and you know, we, we , we ,but, but it's like, I just,
it's important to like, tellthe story that it hasn't been
this like rocketship you

Speaker 2 (30:05):
Yeah . Straight up hockey , like stick to success
.

Speaker 3 (30:07):
No , like we've had, and , and , and I think that's
part of the, you know, like ,like sobriety that you need to
have around being a creator isthat your income streams could
be, can change. variessignificantly. Like, like, man,
we were in the height of ourYouTube when we were like
killing it. We were making 25KA month on our YouTube
channels.

Speaker 2 (30:27):
Holy.

Speaker 3 (30:27):
Like , and that was like, you know , represented 90
plus percent of our income atthat time. And now our YouTube
, uh, AdSense income representsless than 1% of our income. So
it's like, like, like talkabout such a massive swing and
, and , and you have to be kindof,

Speaker 2 (30:42):
Yeah. If you just , if you just focus just on that
forever, you'd be like, broke.
You know what I mean? Like ,

Speaker 3 (30:46):
You'd be screwed.
Yeah. And so it's like, and,and so what I'm saying is like,
it's not for everyone. It's notfor the faint of heart. Like I,
I, I , I get it. If you have anine to five and you can punch
the time card and kind of checkout when you come home at
night, like, that's fine. Like,I'm never gonna like complain
or I'm never gonna like putthat down. 'cause there's,
there's value to likehaving that mental , uh, relief
, uh, of where your income'sgonna come from. But at the

(31:07):
same time , um, there , it's,it's so beautiful. Like the,
the, the, if , if you reallylook at it, there's no ceiling
for your income potential andyour impact potential when you
work for yourself, in myopinion.

Speaker 2 (31:20):
So, I mean, and if you are new and you have a
channel right now, or let's sayyou have a , you know , a
couple thousand subscriber ornot even that let's , there's
even just enough to bemonetized, let's put it that
way. Okay . And you have asmall Instagram account,
whatever, a couple thousandfollowers would you recommend
for that person to continue?
Like, I mean, would you saylike, I guess one idea is you

(31:45):
make a YouTube video, right?
You chop it , you could chop itup, turn into some shorts, or
maybe one good short out ofthat five minute YouTube video
and try to repurpose that inother places and just try to, I
don't know . I'm trying tothink of ways somebody could
like further their , uh,content creation without having
to like go crazy.

Speaker 3 (32:03):
Yeah. So , um, I'll be totally honest here, man,
I'm still figuring this out.
Like for a long time, that'swhat I've been doing, is I do
this, like you said, I do thislivestream every Friday , um,
and I download the replay ofthat and I chop it up and use
it for shorts. Um, and that'snot ideal , you know,
for a piece of content thatfeels native to the platform.

(32:23):
Like there's a difference forlike filming something
specifically for like, let'ssay short form content. Um, but
to your , to your point, likethere's, my , my approach has
been volume where I'm like,okay, I just wanna be
everywhere. I want to be onTwitter, I wanna be on TikTok,
I wanna be on YouTube, I wannabe everywhere. And so by
definition, that means that I'mnot gonna be able to excel

(32:44):
everywhere. But I , that's justthe path, the bed that I've
made. If I was giving advice tosomeone who's just starting
out, it probably wouldn't bethat, because I also, just to
clarify, I have a team. I havevirtual assistants, I have, you
know, people , editor, videoeditors, all that stuff. And so
if it's just you and you don'thave that , uh, ability to
invest in other people to helpyou out with this stuff, I
would concentrate on just oneor two platforms in the

(33:06):
beginning. And like you said,trying to, probably what I
would do is I would, I wouldhave a long form strategy and I
would have a native short formstrategy where I'm gonna sit
down and I'm gonna like filmshort form pieces of content
that I'm not repurposing fromanywhere else. Um, because I
think that that'll have thebetter , uh, the best , um,
probably the best results.

Speaker 2 (33:26):
So how many podcasts do you have then ? You have a
live stream on Friday, whatelse you've created ?

Speaker 3 (33:29):
I have, I do. I have a , um, a , a podcast called
Creator Debates where everyepisode pits to high profile
creators against each other todebate a hotly contested topic
in the creator economy. So ,um, it , it's actually kind of
come full circle. 'cause wewere talking just earlier about
niches and whether or not youshould pick a niche or, you
know, or you should kind of bea general creator, whatever.

(33:51):
And this was my big strugglefor a long time, is like, you
know, people know me as thesponsorship coach. Like I'm,
that's, that's my kind of lane,right? Um, but I didn't want to
just make a podcast aboutsponsorships. 'cause I love
talking about all this othertypes of stuff too, right?
Digital products and coursesand merch and affiliate
marketing and all this stuff.
Um, and so once I, ultimately,basically what's happened over
the last couple years is Ispent the first two years

(34:14):
basically developing my, theknow , like, and trust factor,
like they call it , um, in thisparticular lane. And people
started trusting me for, forthis topic. And so once I
ultimately decided to launch apodcast that wasn't about my
niche, which was sponsorships ,um, they followed me over
there. They were like, okay,well Justin has some good stuff

(34:35):
to say about sponsorships, sohe probably has some good stuff
to say about these other topicstoo. And so it's allowed me ,
uh, I call it kind of the , theTrojan horse effect ,
right? It's like you go in withthis one thing, and then once
you , you know, once you kindof penetrate there, then you
can kind of jump out and belike, ta-da, I've got all these
other things I wanna say too.
Um, and so, so yeah, man , it'sbeen, it's been a blast. I've
got the live stream , I've gotthe podcasts. Um, yeah, it's,

(34:56):
it's, it's a lot. I will sayit's a lot. I feel,

Speaker 2 (34:59):
So you guys, Justin knows the stuff, right ? Right
. , like legit, likehe's the only person I know
that a is willing to talk aboutthe things he talks about,
because usually it's behindclosed doors. Or you have,
like, one thing, you know, hetalks about or you know, is he
says, you know, creators willgo ask another creator. Like,
Hey, what do you charge? Right?
And he's like, that's the worstthing you can do. Because like,

(35:21):
and I think it's the hardestpart too , if you're trying to
charge money for contentcreation, like you have no idea
what to charge, you have noidea what to offer, you don't
even know what you're worth,right? Because you might think
you're worth a lot less thanwhat you're really worth in the
market, but, and then peoplewill roll right over you and be
like , oh yeah, sure. Yeah . Imean, you're pretty much tuned
for free

Speaker 3 (35:40):
To , to your point.
I mean, there's like, you couldbe wrong to the tune of
hundreds of thousands ofdollars in the in in
these examples that you'resharing now with some of these
brands splashing around massiveamounts of cash. Like, if you
don't educate yourself aroundhow to value your work and
value what you're bringing tothe table as a creator,

(36:01):
remember, like, brands do nothave all this stuff figured
out. E everyone thinks Oh yeah.
Brands like ,

Speaker 2 (36:07):
Yeah , you really do think , I mean, I , yeah , like
you , you realize that you'rethe one that has the authority.
They don't, I mean, they havethe money, but they have a
clue,

Speaker 3 (36:14):
Right? Right. And so it's like your job is to
educate them. That's your job, . You shouldn't just be
like, oh, this brand's in ,they're so stupid. They don't,
they're paying $20,000 forthese magazine spots like that.
What , what's their clueless,right? It's like, and this is
the tendency when you come inand talk with brands in some of
these traditional categories,sometimes it's just like you
have to unlearn that. You haveto be like, okay, look, this is

(36:35):
what they've done to date, butnow it's my job to come in
there and help them understandhow they can supplement their
current strategy. I'm notcoming in and saying that
you're an idiot brand. Um, I'msaying, Hey, this is, yeah,
this took you up to where you,you are today. I'm gonna help
you take you into the nextchapter. Um, and so it's like
having the humility tounderstand that that's your job
as a creator to do that. Um,it's gonna be a game changer.

Speaker 2 (36:59):
Yeah, I mean, I think it's, so I guess what's
Creator Wizard ?

Speaker 3 (37:03):
So Creator Wizard is my , uh, my moniker, my brand
name. So if you go to creatorwizard.com , that's like kind
of where that's the umbrella ofeverything that I talk about.
All the sponsorship stuff andpodcasts and courses and all
that stuff too. So yeah,people, people call me the
Creator Wizard . And so that's,that's kind of my, my, my
social handle.

Speaker 2 (37:22):
And what, what is, what are the, what are the
courses you offer? So you'vegifted a paid, and what's the
second one? So peopleunderstand the difference?

Speaker 3 (37:29):
Yeah, so, so , um, my primary course is called
Brand Deal Wizard . Um, and sothe reason i I created this
program is that first of all,like if you're interested at
all in , in any of this stuff,I have like 99% of my stuff is
free. I have like hundreds ofYouTube videos. I have so many
like, stuff on my blog, like mynewsletter creator
wizard.com/join . By the way,shameless plug. Um, you know, I

(37:50):
literally just send you lots ofstuff for free. But , um, like
I decided to create a programthat if for anyone that's even
interested in like earningmoney by working with partners
and brands and companies andthings like this , um, I wanted
to make the best like course ,uh, on the planet for that. Um,
because I didn't like, numberone, I wanted people to avoid

(38:13):
the mistakes that my wife and Imade grow , you know, like
coming up, right? Signing awayrights, the broadcast TV rights
for nothing. And, you know,signing exclusivity, like, oh,
it can't work with any brands,you know, that are competitors
for a year. Like, we made everymistake under the book. You can
imagine. So I wanted to helpprovide , uh, people a , a
venue to learn those things.
Secondly , um, like a very,very large mistake that

(38:37):
creators make is they have thistransactional mindset. It's
like a one , I'm gonna do thisone-off deal with this one
brand, and then I'm literallygonna never talk to them again.
And that is like firingyourself from your nine to five
job every single month. It'slike you're back out there
being like, okay, hire me, hireme. Like I, I work with me,
right? And so it's like Iwanted to teach people that
it's so much easier to convincea brand that you just worked

(38:59):
with to hire you. Again,, it's so much easier to
convince them to do that 'causethey just had a great
experience. And so this is aforeign concept for a lot of, a
lot of people , uh, especiallycreators who maybe never had a
professional job before theywere doing this, right? Um, and
so, and I just, I have so manyframeworks and methodologies,
and I have what I call mysponsorship wheel, which is my

(39:20):
eight step , uh, framework thatI teach people about what brand
partnerships look like. I justwanted to have a forum for, for
people who are frankly makinga, oftentimes a lot of money.
Um, and so if you canunderstand how do you go from
like charging a thousanddollars to $10,000 without 10
times the amount of work likethat , that's really what I
specialize in. Um , and that'swhat the , uh, the course is

(39:42):
for.

Speaker 2 (39:43):
I think it's brilliant. I mean, there's not
, there's not a lot of people,like, I honestly, like Justin's
the only guy I know talks aboutthis to be quite honest. I
mean, I've worked with a lot ofbrands and I've talked with a
lot of creators and I even likethe things I've learned from
Justin, I've had to like tellour creators, like just the
other day, a creator friend ofmine who I'm not gonna name was
did some content and I waslike, Hey, did they pay you

(40:05):
right? And he is like, no. AndI'm like, and then I said ,
well , this brand had come outto me and they wanted to pay me
to do the same same thing. AndI was like, but I read their
contract. And I was like, ohhell to the no. And I'm like,
I'm just making sure you didn'tsign that contract, because
like, it was pretty, like interms of there was, it was
exclusivity in there, there ,well , it wasn't so much the

(40:27):
price or any of that is whenyou start really reading it,
it's like they would own theentire rights of your video for
very, or however many videosthey wanted you to do for a
very long time. And I was like,there's no way. But like, if
you're new, you know, if you'rea new person, like you probably
like, oh cool, I'm gonna make acouple, couple dollars here.
And then not even realize thatthe true value of what you're
giving away just 'cause youdon't understand what that,

(40:49):
what that even means, you know,like as a, as a creator and the
, the value of a brand runningads with your content, right?
Mm-Hmm . or allthat. It's like, that's your,
that's you man. That's yourpersona. That's like that're
using you. You understand that.
It's like, so, I mean

Speaker 3 (41:07):
It's, it's, I mean it's , it's , it can be a
really frustrating thing forcreators what you just
described, because a lot ofpeople will, brands
will come and they'll have aconversation with a creator and
you'll be like, Hey, you gottapay me money for that. And
they'll like, Hey, well thiscreator over here, they, they
were fine doing it for free. Solike, well , how come you're
not fine doing it for free? Andthey'll try and kind of

(41:28):
gaslight you, ,

Speaker 2 (41:29):
You know , to some degree really.

Speaker 3 (41:30):
Um, yeah, for sure.
And so, and creators getfrustrated 'cause they're like,
how can I advocate for myself?
How can I get paid if everyoneelse is doing it for free? It's
so frustrating. Like, I can't,you know, like that , that's
like a , a really commonrefrain that I hear a lot. And
what I tell creators is like,look, you have absolutely no
control over what someone elsedecides to do, whether they
decide to do it for free orvery little money, you have no

(41:53):
control over that. What you dohave control over is helping
illustrate to the brand or thepartner why you are so much
different than those otherpeople. One, a quick example,
your friend who just did abunch of content for free,
oftentimes what brands do notget when they are giving away
free, free stuff is , uh, therights to repurpose the
content, to run paidadvertising with it, the rights

(42:15):
to preview the content beforeit goes live. What, what
happens when they sendsomething free, the creator
talks about it and then thebrand's like, wait , whoa ,
whoa , whoa , whoa. Youactually said something that's
not true or not accurate.
That's a problem. And there'sno incentive for the creator to
like, say, give the brand apreview of it before it goes
live when there's nocompensation involved , right?
Sure . And so it's your job tolike bring this stuff up when

(42:35):
you're talking with a partnerand be like, Hey, is that
important to you being able topreview it and make sure that
everything I said and depictedmake

Speaker 2 (42:42):
The before it goes live Yeah . Make

Speaker 3 (42:43):
You know like that if that's valuable to you.
Well, that's why I specializein this and that's why you have
to pay me, right? Becausethere's, this is a, this is a
relationship here. Um ,

Speaker 2 (42:51):
Yeah. We're we're working together on this. This
isn't just

Speaker 3 (42:54):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (42:54):
You know? Yeah.
'cause a complete roll thedice, I mean, I have , I have a
couple brands I own myself andI'll send out product and it's
a roll the dice. You don't knowthe person's gonna do it or not
like Mm-Hmm . If you wannafollow up a thousand times, and
then maybe if you do get thecontent back, it might not
necessarily be what you wanted,but now what are you gonna do?
You gave away for free, youknow? Right . It's like, so I
can see from the otherperspective, like a brand, they

(43:16):
really have that in place toknow those objectives will be
met. Right. Whatever that mightbe. And,

Speaker 3 (43:21):
And the other important thing, note , knowing
that you have a brand, like youalso know like there is value
for each of these tactics.
There, there is value in what Icall product seeding. You just
send stuff out, you have no,you just kiss it and let you
have no expectation. There'sgonna be like a bunch of posts
made of it . You just, that'sjust like part of it, right?
That's one strategy. Thenyou've got the affiliate
strategy where you've gotpeople like out there, a little

(43:43):
army on your behalf sellingstuff. You give 'em 20%
commission, whatever, that'sone strategy. Then you've got
the, you know, flatcompensation content creation
budget too. That, that , likethese are all strategies and
any brand worth their saltshould be doing all of these
things. Right? And so are

Speaker 2 (43:58):
You all three of them , right? You send stuff
out.

Speaker 3 (43:59):
Yeah . You should be doing everything right. And so,
and so it's

Speaker 2 (44:02):
Important and you do affiliate with the guy, so he
like wants to keep on pushingit after the period's over and

Speaker 3 (44:07):
Exactly. And, and so it's like your goal, your ,
your re it's yourresponsibility to teach the
brand this. If they don'tunderstand this, you say like,
Hey, like here's all thesedifferent ways in which you
work with creators. Like it'sall fine. Good. And well, if
you're used to doing it forfree or whatever, and do this
over here, but oh, by the way,over here, this is what I
specialize in. And if that'swhat you need, gimme a ring.
But if not, Ciara , basically.

(44:29):
Right? And so you just have tohave that, that confidence. And
, and it comes with, witheducating yourself.

Speaker 2 (44:33):
What do you think brands look at when they wanna
partner with somebody?

Speaker 3 (44:37):
So I think it really comes down to the goal of the
campaign. In , in , in my view,this is what I teach creators
and , and also teach brands whodon't, who don't really
understand this. What a lot oftimes happens is that , um,
brands have very unrealisticexpectations about what is
going to happen on the otherside of this partnership. So
let's say they reach out, let'ssay they do compensate the
creator, Hey, we're gonna payyou five grand, two grand, 500

(44:59):
bucks, whatever it is , right?
And they're expecting, they're, they're , they're , they're
expecting that this is going tobe like a Facebook ad ,
right? They're gonna be like,okay, we're , we're gonna put
$500 in and we're gonna get twoor three X row ads , sales ,
sales , turn on ads . We'regonna these sales on, we're
gonna get conversions on theother side of that

Speaker 2 (45:16):
Part . The one to PR do .

Speaker 3 (45:17):
Yeah. And, and , um, and yet that was never
communicated to the partner.
They never said like, that ,this is what our expectation
is. And so the, the creatorsover here kind of oblivious to
this, like , uh, you know, kindof in their , they've got a big
smile, you know, na naive smileon their face. They're doing
the content and they say, thisepisode of, you know, golfers
authority is, is brought to youby, you know, Titleist or

(45:39):
whatever, right? And it's likemore of a brand awareness play,
right? That that's a brandawareness play. And yet, on the
other side of this, they do thedeal. You do a couple videos
and oh, it didn't translateinto sales like we were hoping.
And then you're, as the creatorsitting over here thinking,
well, hold on a second. Younever told me that that was
what you were

Speaker 2 (45:55):
Trying to

Speaker 3 (45:56):
Accomplish. Yeah.
Because, because if youwould've told me that brand, I
would've said, Hey, click thelink below. You use Golf
Authority 20 for 20% off yourfirst purchase. That is a
conversion, that is aconversion focused piece of
content, right? And so it'slike you have to be asking ,
uh, these types of questions.
And so when you're a brand, theto , to your question , um, you

(46:19):
have to understand what is yourgoal? ? Is it
conversion? There's three typesthat I always teach. It's
conversions, right? Where it'ssales, you know, app downloads,
software trials, whatever itis. Then there's repurposing
where the reason that theywanna hire Paul is because they
want to get, they wannaleverage your name and likeness
to run ads or to put it ontheir website , uh, or to

(46:41):
regroup, repost it on theirsocial media channels like
that. That's a goal, right? Andso you probably don't care at
all how many sales aregenerated there, because that's
not the goal. And then you haveawareness, right? Where it's
like , you know, products thatwere previously only sold in
Europe or Australia, and nowthey're coming to the us . This
is a brand awareness campaign.
We wanna get this splashy. Wewant , uh, you know, we want
the , um, behind the golf brandpodcast powered by , uh, you

(47:06):
know, Callaway

Speaker 2 (47:06):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (47:07):
Whatever, with the badge. That's awareness. So, so
there's, there's differenttactics that you need to employ
based on the goal of thecampaign. See

Speaker 2 (47:14):
What it is like, it's like, it's like you can't
go to school for this. I mean,honestly, I mean, the only way
you learn is by doing it.
Mm-Hmm . , or youtake Justin's course. Yeah .

Speaker 3 (47:22):
, I need set you up as an affiliate . Like
click the click for , forPaul's affiliate link in the
description box . I'm evenlooking for an affiliate. I
need to give you one. I need togive you one.

Speaker 2 (47:31):
I mean , yeah , jerk kidding , . Um , you
know, but honestly, like, untilI met Justin, like, I didn't
understand any of these things.
Like, you , you , you don'tknow. You just don't know . And
then, you know, unless you knowsomebody who's like , uh,
professional in this world orwho's very successful, like
they know their stuff, but it'slike they don't know everything

(47:53):
either. It's like whatever youlearn on your way up, right?
But once you get to a certainlevel, it's like you're not
really learning that no morebecause you don't need to, you
know? Mm-Hmm . .
And I think like, what's so keyabout people like Justin is
that you're able to learn fromsomebody that knows what
they're talking about,especially when you're a new
creator, you know? You know,and for this example in the
golf industry, it's like, lotsof guys always reach out to me

(48:14):
and say, Hey, I got a new, whatdo you recommend? What do you
recommend to do? You know? AndI'm like, oh , I should have
Justin on the show . Solike, he could at least like
explain like, what do you do ifyou're just new? And how do you
try to make money at this? Or,you know, maybe you do some
free stuff and then you make itpaid later on. You know, you
never know. It's like, onething I , I think when ju
gathered through Justin'scourse is like , about the ,
it's a lot about relationshiptoo. It's about relationship

(48:36):
with that company or thatbrand, or that PR agency, or
whoever it is. 'cause likethat's 90% of it right there,
you know, and it's theexecution at the second half.
But I mean, what do you, whatdo you think in terms of that?

Speaker 3 (48:48):
A hundred percent, man. I mean, I think, you know,
it , it's funny because when Istarted doing this, like, I
very much was like, oh, I'mgonna help like social media
creators, that that's what I'mgonna help. 'cause that's what
I know, right? It's likeYouTubers, TikTok or
Instagramers, right ? But like,so many people have , have come
to me from all different , uh,industries and like people who
run conferences, people whohave podcasts, like bloggers,

(49:11):
all sorts of stuff from allthese different , um, you know,
angles. Because sponsorshipshas become a really, really ,
uh, meaningful part of their,of their revenue streams. And ,
and, and now it's so funnybecause I'm sure a lot of folks
in your audience, like whenyou, when they think of the
word sponsorship, the extent ofit is like, oh , someone's

(49:31):
gonna sponsor me as a golfer,maybe, right? Like, I , maybe
you're listening to this,you're like, oh, I'm a I'm an
aspiring golfer and I wanna getsponsored by one of the, the
big brands or whatever. And soI'm gonna get swag . I'm gonna
wear the hat, I'm gonna get thebag, I'm gonna do all this.
Right? Um, and like that is howit's been done up to date ,
like a traditional, likeathlete sponsorship. But to

(49:52):
your point, like things arechanging very quickly. If,
like, if you look at some ofthe top athletes who have, who
have forged like verysignificant sponsorship deals,
a huge component of it wastheir social footprint. It
wasn't just about them wearingit. And the brand awareness
piece, like, which is what wejust talked about. It's like
there's all these other ways inwhich they're, they're serving

(50:12):
the brand. So maybe there'sconferences and the person goes
there and is doing a keynote onbehalf of the brand, or they're
going and they're doing this a, you know, interview circuit
or, you know, for the newproducts that the brand is
releasing, or maybe this personhas a podcast like, like you do
Paul, right? They come on thebehind the golf brand podcast,
but they're also a golfer,right? So they're supplementing

(50:33):
their professional aspirationswith a social footprint. And I
think that, that , this is, tome, this is kind of the next
chapter of , um, of the creatoreconomy or the new media, what
have you, is you're not justlike, you're not just
leveraging your name andlikeness, which is what the
celebrities or the athletes ofyesteryear would've done.
There's all these other ways inwhich you can , um, you know,

(50:57):
basically upsell thesepartnerships for a lot more
money based on other propertiesthat you own, where you can
amplify the brand's message.

Speaker 2 (51:05):
Where can people find you right now if they're
like interested in like,learning more about you and
about what you do and yourcourses?

Speaker 3 (51:13):
Yeah, I'd , I'd say the best way is just to my free
newsletter, creatorwizard.com/join . Um, I share
everything, you know, all myvideos and my courses and
coaching and all that stuff ,uh, on there. And I send it out
three times a week. Um, Iactually send you paid
sponsorship opportunities everyweek if you're on that list as
well. So you can start gettingfamiliarity with like, oh, this
is a brand that's like tryingto pay creators right now to

(51:34):
like , talk about them, right?
The , these types ofopportunities exist. But then
more, more generally, I sendout, you know , videos and I
actually have started sharingsome of my, like, coaching
calls live, like publicly. Um,if that's your thing too. So ,
uh, yeah, I just, I got a lot,a lot of stuff out there, but
probably the newsletter's thebest way.

Speaker 2 (51:50):
How many times do you do brain deal wizard a
year?

Speaker 3 (51:54):
I do it three times a year. Um, and in fact, cohort
number 10 is , uh, startingenrollment in about two weeks
now. So , um, crazy. I can ,it's been 10 times. Um, but ,
uh, yeah, we , uh, it's a fourweek sprint and uh, this
upcoming one is the kind of theOctober November timeframe. The
reason I do it , uh, right nowis because Q four , uh, kind of

(52:14):
the holidays is like when a lotof brands back load their
marketing budget, oftentimes upto 50, 60% of their marketing
budget for the entire year isspent in Q four , which is
October, November, December.

Speaker 2 (52:25):
Really ? I , yeah .

Speaker 3 (52:26):
Yeah . So , um, I'm getting told like

Speaker 2 (52:27):
Stuff like , uh, you know, people are doing their
budgets for next year, likeright now. I was

Speaker 3 (52:31):
Like , yes . Well, that's true as well. That is
true as well.

Speaker 2 (52:33):
December , I'm like, really

Speaker 3 (52:35):
Pitch .

Speaker 2 (52:36):
I was like, okay.
I'm like, I have a big one .

Speaker 3 (52:39):
Oh yeah, no, I mean, this is, this is a lot of
stuff. What I talk about. Infact, my live stream , uh, last
week on Friday was called Qfour holiday pitching strategy
. So it was like, okay, like weneed to be pitching, you know,
these, and then I'm gonna dothe Q one, you know, January,
February , uh, stream soon tooas well. 'cause like they're ,
you know, the larger the brand,the further in advance they
plan on this stuff.

Speaker 2 (52:58):
So it , what do you think about , um, people, would
you, if you're just doingcontent, would you also do
content with like an affiliate?
Or would you do like, you know,would you do paid with
affiliate or would you do paidwith like your own product?
Like I know it's like, it'swhat costs more money, right?
Essentially for yourself.
Affiliate's pretty easy 'causeyou don't spend any money. But
like, you know, I guess whatways do you recommend people to

(53:21):
monetize themself outside ofthe sponsorship?

Speaker 3 (53:23):
Where I always come from as a creator is it has to
be audience first. Everythingthat I do, whether it's
sponsorships, whether it'saffiliate marketing, whether
it's talking about my ownservices and coaching and
courses and stuff like that,it's what is going to be the
most additive to my audienceslash customer, right? Um, and
so that's where I come fromwith everything. Um, and so ,

(53:45):
uh, a lot of people get fixatedon this whole topic of like,
well, I don't wanna do too manyspon . Like, you have a brand,
right? You're thinking, oh ,like what if I just like talk
about my own brand every singleshow instead of like sponsors,
right? Because then I canmaximize the amount of money. A
lot of people think of thislike, oh, I , I'm, I'm only
gonna talk about my stuff,right? And so what I lack to
talk about is like, okay, wellthat is number one, a very
selfish perspective. Numbertwo, it's not audience first .

(54:05):
You're thinking about justyourself. Number three. Um, if
you were to get into the psycheof your brand , of your
followers, of your audience'shead, what is keeping them up
at night? What are, what aretheir challenges? Yeah .
Specifically related to theirgolf game. There's probably
lots of other products,services, education courses, et
cetera, that you're never gonnaoffer as a creator, right? And

(54:29):
yet you have other friends whoare offering those things.
Well, it probably makes senseto do some sort of jv, you
know, j some joint ventureaffiliate type deal where you
talk about their program and toyour audience. 'cause you're
never gonna do that, right? Andso it's like if you , if you
have this audience firstmindset, it makes it a lot
easier to be like, okay, oh,okay. Yeah. Taking a
sponsorship from that brandmakes a lot of sense. 'cause
I'm never gonna make thatproduct or I'm never gonna do

(54:50):
that. Um, and so I think itjust, it, it really helps
people. Um, and , and the otherthing too, you ask like
generally like how shouldpeople monetize? Um, listen,
listen to your audience. Whatare they asking you for? Are
they asking you for help? Forme, when I started coaching
creators on sponsorships , uh,there was no way you could pay
me. I, I literally didn't havea course. I didn't have
coaching. I didn't ever havehad it have anything. And it

(55:12):
took someone reaching out in mydms and be like, Hey, can you
coach me ? And I waslike, coach you, what , what
are you talking about? And soit was like, I never thought of
that. Like, oh, people wouldactually want to pay me. Like,
for this. It was more just kindof scratch a creative itch. And
so you , you should belistening. What are people
constantly asking questionsabout in the comments in the
dms? What are people emailingyour newsletter about? Uh, and

(55:32):
just don't ignore that stuff.
'cause that could potentiallybe a way , uh, for you to serve
them with some sort , somethingpaid.

Speaker 2 (55:38):
Well , that's one thing I love too, is about your
sponsorship wheel. 'cause likeif you take that, it's like,
you know what your problem is,right? Like you're like, I'm
really good at this, but I'mnot good at those. And that's
when you focus on, and that'sprobably why I'm not where I
want to be or whatever it mightbe. Is that for free or are
they only through the course? Ican't remember.

Speaker 3 (55:56):
That's for free.
Yeah, you can take, it's thesponsor , the sponsorship wheel
snapshot. Um, and in fact, ifyou join my
[e-mail] join, one of the first
emails you'll get , uh, afterthe first couple days is , uh,
invitation to take thatassessment. It's free
assessment, basically .

Speaker 2 (56:09):
I have it like I , I downloaded it on my computer.
Like I always look at it andI'm like, yeah, that's like,
it's still true and that's whatI still need to work on. And
it's like, it's like peopledon't wanna work on the things
that are hard, right? Mm-Hmm .
So they like go , I'm reallygood at this, but I wanna do
these. It's like, like, well ,you, you know , work on those,
not that, 'cause you alreadyknow how to do that, but ,
Mm-Hmm. . Mm-Hmm.
, I dunno .
Justin gives a lot of value.
Like a lot of, it's free. Iwould say majority of his stuff

(56:31):
is free, you know, so I mean, Iwould highly, highly , highly,
highly recommend going to hiswebsite. Um, just read the
articles and like he is , Imean , has his YouTube channel
too. You can watch the videos,but it's like, there's so much
content right there andinformation that can actually
help you figure out what to doif you're wanting to be, if you
wanna work with golf brands orany brand really, I mean, me

(56:53):
golf brands, but , um, soagain, where where can people,
where can people find you sothey can look you up?

Speaker 3 (57:00):
Yeah. Creator wizard.com/join is the
newsletter. And then I'm prettymuch at Creator Wizard
everywhere on social.

Speaker 2 (57:06):
He's everywhere.
He's everywhere. . Well,thank you so much for , uh,
teaching me and everyone else.
I can't think more highly ofyou guys and I love what you're
doing. I'll see you guys in thenext episode. Thanks

Speaker 3 (57:17):
Again, man. It was a blast.

Speaker 5 (57:18):
Thanks for listening to another episode of Behind
the Golf Brand podcast. You'regonna beat me and golf stay
connected on and off the showby visiting golfers
authority.com. Don't forget tolike, subscribe and leave a
comment. Golf is always morefun when you win. Stay out of
the beach and see you on thegreen.