February 6, 2024 • 55 mins
Sara Kuburic shares her journey of self-discovery, emphasizing the importance of self-awareness, personal responsibility, and the impact of key questions on personal growth, while host Aaron Pete moves the conversation towards understanding the essence of living a fulfilling life.
Dr. Sara Kuburic, also known as the @millennial.therapist on Instagram, is an existential psychotherapist, consultant, and author of the book IT'S ON ME. A former columnist for USA Today, she is driven by a passion to help individuals embrace change and lead lives that are authentic, free, and meaningful. Drawing on her own experiences of living through wars and navigating complex relationships, Sara is deeply invested in exploring and understanding the intricacies of human existence.
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Episode Transcript
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Aaron Pete (00:00):
Welcome back to another episode of the Bigger
than Me podcast.
Here is your host, aaron Self.
Love, self acceptance, selftalk these are words we hear all
the time, but it's way harderto implement than people realize
.
Today, I'm speaking with theauthor of it's On Me.
She's known on Instagram as theMillennial Therapist.
My guest today is Sarah Kubrick.
(00:22):
Sarah, I cannot tell you howlong I've been looking forward
to doing this interview.
Would you please introduceyourself for listeners who might
not be acquainted with yourwork?
Dr. Sara Kuburic (00:33):
Thank, you so much for having me.
I am Dr Sarah Kubrick.
I'm often known as theMillennial Therapist because of
my handle on Instagram, and I'man existential psychotherapist
that specializes in identity,moral trauma and relationships.
Aaron Pete (00:50):
You have an incredible book that I highly
recommend people check out.
It's called, it's On Me, andI'm wondering if we could
perhaps start from the beginning, because I found that to be one
of the most important parts ofthe book, because the first step
to solving a problem isadmitting that there is one, and
that can be the hurdle that Ifelt like you broke down really
(01:11):
well For listeners.
Would you mind taking us backto your personal life and the
challenges you were starting toovercome in your own life and
the steps you were able to takefrom that?
Dr. Sara Kuburic (01:23):
Yeah, of course I'm really fun writing
the book because I'm a prettyprivate person.
People don't know very muchabout me and it was the first
time that I incorporated anautobiographical piece, and I
think because I wanted people toknow.
It's something I haveexperienced and something I have
been through, and hopefully mystory will help them.
(01:43):
So the book opens up with mebeing roughly I don't know, in
my early 20s in a bar in LAchatting to a friend, and this
time I was in grad school, I wasmarried and everything about my
life seemed very idyllic, verysociety approved.
I got lots of pats on the backand I was chatting to my friend,
(02:07):
who is from college and we werecatching up.
So I was telling him about mylife, and something that's
really cool is, instead ofsaying wow, that's amazing, you
must be so happy, which I thinkis an imposition, I'm telling
the other person they shouldfeel happy.
He just simply asked like wow,that's a lot going on.
Are you happy?
And my whole story begins withthat one question, because the
(02:32):
answer was so obviously no, butit was not an answer that I saw
until that very moment, and soduring this time of my life I
was quite emotionallyunavailable.
I didn't express my emotionvery readily.
I was like I'm in LA, crying,bawling my eyes out at a bar
where everyone is clearly veryuncomfortable, because I don't
(02:54):
know what's happening and myfriend is clearly very
uncomfortable and I justcouldn't contain it.
I think it's the first time Iallowed myself to truly ask that
question and answer thatquestion.
And then I went into thebathroom because I was like I
need to really collect myself, Ineed to pull it together and I
remember like splashing my faceand looking in a mirror and then
(03:16):
being like who is this girl?
Like I understand it's me and Iunderstand like she's mirroring
all the things I'm doing, andit wasn't like dissociation, but
it was kind of like she's acomplete stranger to me.
I have no feelings for youexcept disdain.
I very much.
I think it was the first time Irealized that I hated myself a
(03:39):
little bit and that soundsreally intense, but it was.
And I think the reason I hatedmyself and we'll talk about this
more is because I realized thata big part of why I was so
miserable was on me and I thinkhe was in that moment where it's
like oh, I am not happy, oh andyou're to blame.
(04:02):
And so it was this really,really intense moment.
Afterwards, just like everyoneelse, I went to my hotel room, I
ordered room service, I watchedfriends and I was like phew,
that was like really intense.
I'm glad it's over.
I was completely like.
I was like, wow, howembarrassing, what a journey
Like it's, just like wow, Ireally had a breakthrough and
(04:24):
just pretending my life wasgoing to go back to normal and
he didn't.
So there were a couple ofevents that happened afterwards
and we can, you know, talk aboutthem if that's something you're
interested in.
But this was one big event thatkind of broke me in terms of my
denial, my suppression of mychildhood trauma of the
decisions I was making in themoment that were contributing to
(04:45):
me being miserable.
All of these things became veryclear to me very suddenly, and
then my life drastically changed.
Aaron Pete (04:53):
Yes, I definitely like to dive more into those
things, but there's one piecethat I'd like to hone in on, and
it's the power of a highquality question.
That doesn't have like anexpectation with it, and as an
interviewer, it just interestsme because I was thinking about
what I love in an interview, andit isn't necessarily just the
answer.
It's when I get to see theperson I'm asking learn
(05:16):
something about themselves bybeing given the opportunity to
be asked a certain question thatnobody's ever posed before.
So what did it mean to havethat question asked and what
role can that play in peoplegrowing I love that.
Dr. Sara Kuburic (05:28):
You're like a therapist.
That's what we love, too iswhen you ask a question and I
love the way you articulatedthat it's about not having an
expectation when it comes to theother person's answer.
This is so powerful and mostpeople we do have an expectation
and the person knows we have anexpectation.
So when you ask someone likehey, how's your day, we expect
(05:50):
them to say it's fine, it's good, it's whatever, and they expect
us to expect them to say that,and then in the end, there's no
genuine connection or processingor insight for either
individual.
So what was your question?
Because I got really carriedaway and excited about what you
said and then I forgot yourquestion.
Aaron Pete (06:06):
It seems like this question was the genesis for so
much growth and I'm justwondering what role does that
play in helping people takethese meaningful steps in their
lives?
Because it's not always just aninternal click.
I get it.
I read a book, I understand itnow.
Sometimes it's an externalforce of a good question that
makes somebody go whoa, likeyou're putting this in this new
perspective and now I'm able totake these next steps.
Dr. Sara Kuburic (06:28):
Yeah, it's a lot about facing the truth.
I think we can't create changewithout self-awareness, and
self-awareness comes with a lotof truth and I think the power
of that, of having it beexternal sometimes, is that we
can't avoid the answer.
Sometimes we can ask questionsto ourselves in a way that will
(06:50):
feel comfortable answering.
So there's a bit ofmanipulation of the truth.
But when someone flat out,point blank asks you a certain
question and you have to answerand you're aware that you're
either going to lie to them andyourself or you're just going to
be honest and you hear thatanswer organically come out of
you, I think that's what I wasshocked by.
(07:12):
I didn't want to admit, I wasunhappy at that moment.
I wasn't like, oh, wow, okay,I'll be honest with everyone.
I literally heard myself.
I don't even think I answered.
I think I just started cryingand I think that was the really
cool thing about my journey withmy body.
I probably, if it was up to justmy cognition, would have lied
(07:34):
Not to him but to myself.
I would have been like, yeah,totally, so many good things.
Hashtag, grateful that girlfrom the bombshell, like you
know, shelter she would havekilled to have this life, and I
think that was for me like Icame from a really interesting
and intense background.
But it's like I should begrateful for these things and
society tells me I should begrateful for these things and
(07:56):
part of me was grateful for them.
So I think if it was just acognitive response, I would have
been like, yeah, you know, yeah, absolutely.
So many wonderful things.
And I felt really betrayed by mybody in that moment, because my
body answered the question inthe most honest way that I
cognitively couldn't have andit's kind of ripped that veil
and it was like you're crying.
(08:17):
So do with that as you will,but the fact that the answer to
that question is youuncontrollably crying is a
pretty powerful thing.
So I think we need to becareful, we need to be really
aware of how we're responding tothings, and sometimes that's
more our body than the wordscoming out of our mouth.
But I think our actions willoften point to the truth, which
(08:41):
is helpful when you're keeling.
Aaron Pete (08:43):
Yeah it does speak to the fact that we do have this
disconnect between the mind andbody, and in those moments you
realize that what you're sayingisn't always accurate, and I
like when people talk about likeyou don't always know when
you're lying to yourself, likethat's actually one of the
hardest things to be able todefine is where you're lying
actually to yourself and not toanybody else, and not
(09:04):
maliciously but unintentionallyaccepting things as status quo
that you wouldn't want to if youwere able to take that step
back.
Dr. Sara Kuburic (09:14):
Oh yeah, and you know a lot of people will
get upset and rightly so aboutindividuals lying to them, and I
often come from a place ofcompassion, of like.
Chances are they're lying tothemselves and unless this is a
really, you know, toxic,manipulative relationship,
people lie to others mostlybecause they're lying to
themselves and they don't.
(09:34):
They don't know how else toexpress it.
If they were to be honest withyou then they would have to be
honest with themselves andthey're not ready to do that,
and so it's not really about us.
A lot of the times and I thinkthat's not lying to myself was
one of the biggest parts of myjourney.
Taking responsibility for mylife and then being brutally,
brutally honest with myself wasreally life changing.
Aaron Pete (09:58):
It does seem at times that we feel kind of
forced to be grateful foreverything, and when you compare
your life to other people, wekind of go, oh well, I have a
way better than these people.
So who am I to look at thosecircumstances?
But you do have an interestingupbringing in that it's unique
from so many others experiencesand I'm just wondering if you
mind sharing some of those earlyexperiences you had.
Dr. Sara Kuburic (10:20):
Yeah, of course.
So I was born in Bosnia rightbefore the Bosnian War and then
we moved to Serbia and there wasthe NATO bombings and after the
bombings, about a year or soafter, we immigrated to Canada.
So my early childhoodexperiences were quite intense,
(10:41):
saturated.
There was a lot of I mean, Idon't know trauma from the wars,
but also immigration is notsuper easy.
I don't know how it hits foreveryone else, but being an
immigrant child and notunderstanding the culture or the
language and feeling like youdon't belong and you don't
understand was also reallydifficult.
And so I had all these superformative experiences that I
(11:02):
didn't realize were unusual andI didn't realize how they
impacted me.
Part of the reason is becauseeveryone around me normalized it
, so we were hanging out with asermon community, my family went
through the same thing, and soit was very common to be like
hey, remember in that bombshelter when that thing happened
, and we thought like that's howwe would talk about it, as if
(11:23):
it was like hey, remember when Iwent to Disneyland or when we
went to like Starbucks and likethis thing.
So there was nothing to signalto me that like hey, this maybe
had consequences and hey, thismaybe wasn't a normal or a
commonly shared experience, andso I it took me a really long
time to realize what impactedtruly had on me, and I think
(11:45):
part of my resistance toacknowledging that was I already
felt like so much damage wasdone and so many lives were lost
and so much sadness andsuffering occurred that I I felt
like, if I let it impact me, Ilet them win somehow, like
they've taken away so much andthis is like my 10 year old, 15
(12:07):
year old brains, like they'vetaken away so much from me
already that if, if Iacknowledge how much they really
changed me, that means thatthey took away even more.
And so I had to like, reconcilethat of like, yeah, it did
impact me, but it doesn't meanthat they, they get to take more
and what you do with thatimpact is up to you.
And so that was kind of myjourney of figuring out like my
(12:29):
therapist had to be.
Like you know, that sounds liketrauma literally, and I was,
like you may try and like, oh,is it?
Which is, you know, ironic,because I was studying to be a
therapist.
But we need those moments, weneed someone else to sometimes
act as a mirror.
Aaron Pete (12:46):
I'm also wondering about the process of becoming
conscious.
I don't believe that, just as achild you're you're born like
really conscious, in the sensethat you fully understand
everything and that you're ableto take it in and relay it and
process everything at once.
I remember going to movies andloving the movie and not talking
about it afterwards and notthinking about it afterwards and
(13:07):
not really understanding whatit meant that I just saw this
person and when you look back onit and I think of watching
things like Spider-Man, I wasemblematic and looking to Toby
McGuire in that movie of like Iwant to be like you, but I
couldn't talk about that.
There wasn't a movie club to godiscuss what I had taken away,
what, what lessons and and lifeapproaches I would go forward
(13:30):
with.
So I think that journey ofbecoming conscious is is a
process people have to gothrough.
Not everybody does, um, but I'mwondering about your journey.
It sounds like it somewhatstarted there.
When do you feel like youstarted to be conscious of your
impact and where you wanted yourtrajectory to go, rather than
being kind of on somebody else'sdirectory of how to live a good
(13:52):
life?
Dr. Sara Kuburic (13:54):
Yeah.
So I think, when it comes toawareness, we can be so hard on
ourselves and others and be likewhy aren't you aware?
The thing about it is you'renot going to be conscious of
things that are too threatening,which means you need a healthy
degree of inner safety to beable to face the truth, to
become fully conscious of whatyou need to, and so a lot of
(14:14):
that journey does take time,because for you to feel safe
enough to face someuncomfortable truths takes time,
and for me, I think thatjourney really took a turn when
I realized, um, after I had myfriends burrito and was like,
yay, I conquered this big hurdle, I went.
The next morning, I went on aflight and I had my very first
(14:36):
panic attack, but I didn't knowwhat it was, and I went into
pretty much full body paralysis,and so that was a really
horrifying experience, because Ithought I was going to die.
And in that moment I went.
I haven't lived and I'm aboutto die.
What a loss, and I think it'swhat snapped me out of it,
because I was like there is no I, even if I fail really horribly
(15:03):
, it's not going to hurt as muchas this very moment.
And so I took me to hit rockbottom before I did anything
about it, and I hope that othersdon't have to.
But for me, everything shiftedwhen I was like I'm incredibly
unhappy, I'm existentially dead,I'm not actually living my life
and it hurts so effing bad thatI cannot handle living like
(15:29):
this, like I like really theoptions and this is sounds a bit
grim, but it's like you eitherdie or you do anything you can
to not feel exactly what you'refeeling.
And I was never suicidal, whichis actually quite shocking
considering, like the, the panicdisorder that I developed at
that time and just how it'sfeeling.
But I was like I will doanything to not feel this and
(15:52):
that was my motivation was lackof pain, it was not this
beautiful like I want to beenlightened, I want to be
authentic, I want to live ameaningful life.
No, that wasn't it at first,and that's okay If you're
listening and this is whereyou're at the bare minimum.
It was like I just want to feelthis much less pain, like I'm
showing yeah, this is terriblefor audio but I want to feel
(16:15):
less pain, even if it's likeinsignificant to the naked eye.
I just want to feel less painand that was my motivation, and
then it became about growth, andthen it became about healing,
and then it became about meaningand purpose and fulfillment.
But at the very start it wasjust about not not being in so
(16:36):
much pain.
Aaron Pete (16:38):
Would you mind elaborating on the brilliant
quote?
You have changing my life.
No longer felt like asuggestion, it felt like a
necessity.
Dr. Sara Kuburic (16:48):
Yeah.
So this moment just articulatedbetter because I had time to
write it.
I think a lot of the times werelike, yeah, I could have better
relationships, or yeah, I couldtake care of my health more.
Or yeah, it's all suggestions.
It's like great, I could do it.
But when you realize that youhave to do it, otherwise, for me
(17:10):
I thought it was dying in thatmoment with my first panic
attack.
I think that's a different typeof motivation.
It's like no one is going tochoose to move out or jump out
of a moving car.
But when you realize it's theonly thing that will keep you
potentially alive, you're goingto jump out of a moving car.
So that's what that felt like.
(17:30):
It was no longer like, hey, doyou want to?
Like, it's not going to feelgood, but do you want to do it?
It's probably going to be goodfor you.
It was like you're going off acliff.
You're going to jump becausethat's the only thing that's
going to keep you alive.
And that's how I felt.
Aaron Pete (17:44):
This really leads in nicely to the armchair metaphor
that you wrote about.
Would you mind articulatingthat for people who haven't
heard of it?
Dr. Sara Kuburic (17:52):
Yeah.
So the armchair metaphor that Ihave is imagine that you're in
a room and the examples I giveare your coffee's cold and you
have stale crackers and yourbooks are perfectly new because
you didn't bother to read them,and you're just like sitting
(18:15):
there and you have a nice lampnext to you, but it's not really
illuminating a lot because youdon't need it because the room
is on fire and you're justchilling there and, although
you're about to die, you areanswering emails, you are
reposting inspirationalInstagram posts.
I think the irony about why Iwrote that particular thing was
(18:37):
sometimes you are doing theright things, like, for example,
maybe you are reading self-helpbooks, but you need more than
that in that moment.
So you're doing all thesethings and you hear this
internal scream that's sayingyou're going to die.
You need to get up and leave,you need to do something, you
need to extinguish the fire, andyou don't.
You just sit there and you'vealso normalized the fact that
(19:00):
it's really cozy and hot andthere's flames all around you
and you don't understand howdire the situation truly is, and
I think a lot of us functionthis way in terms of not
realizing what a big existentialthreat it is not to be yourself
not realizing that we don'tactually live our lives.
And I stopped the metaphorbefore the person died because I
(19:25):
thought that would be toomorbid.
But I want to say there aresuch severe consequences and
just because we've normalizedsomething, just because we're
ignoring something, just becauseyou're suppressing something,
it doesn't mean that there areno consequences.
And so this metaphor was justkind of like an interesting way,
using some imagery, to showthat we can be functioning and
(19:47):
autopiloting through our livesand sleepwalking through our
lives and everything seemstotally fine, and yet we're in
some real danger.
Aaron Pete (19:55):
I look at other people and the reason that I
loved your book so much as I seepeople doing this in their life
.
I look at how much they makeapproximately and how they're
spending and how they'reapproaching their life and
they're on a trajectory tobankruptcy.
They're on a trajectory off acliff.
Oh, interesting, and I'm seeingit and I'm going like, okay,
you make like 20 bucks an hourand you have a $30,000 car and
(20:19):
you have three cats and you livein this.
The places you're moving to aregetting smaller and smaller.
You are on a trajectory to atrailer park or to living on
somebody's couch, but you're notchanging your direction.
And if you come in and just lookat someone and say that to them
, like that wouldn't be wellreceived.
But it's so hard to watchpeople be in the room, be in the
(20:43):
space where the room is on fireand you need to do something,
and but it's not your place toforce other people to.
And one of the points I lovedthat you made in that metaphor
was that they start askingquestions like why is the room
on fire?
Who lit it on fire?
Who's responsible for the fire?
Rather than just getting up andgetting out of the situation
they're in.
Dr. Sara Kuburic (21:04):
Yeah, that's the part that's the most
frustrating.
Sometimes, even with the mentalhealth movement now, it's like
let's really make sure that wecan pin the blame on someone.
That seems to be a lot, of, alot of what's happening and the
narratives that are kind ofdeveloping around it.
It's like, well, it wasn'treally your fault, it was your
(21:24):
parents fault, it was yourupraising fault, and I do not
dismiss that Like and I Iunderstand what childhood stuff
does to you.
Very much honour in their spacefor that.
But I think when theconversation ends there, it
takes away agency.
It's going well, you're thisway, you're in this burning room
because you lived through thesethings, it doesn't say, but you
(21:48):
have the freedom and theresponsibility to get up and
leave, and it's not going to beeasy, like if the flames are
high, whatever contributed tothat.
Like it's going to beincredibly, incredibly difficult
.
But I just think that it takesaway a lot of that empowerment.
And so for me, yes, of courseyou should try to figure out.
(22:09):
You know why is it happening,who's doing it, and sometimes we
don't have the, the courtesy oftime, the plan, you know, and
sometimes you just need to actand then you can reflect further
.
But for me, I had to startdoing very practical things to
manage my panic attacks and then, with time, I realized why they
(22:30):
were happening.
I did not do anything for mypanic attacks until I figured
out why they were happening.
So I think sometimes you justneed to be more proactive and
make sure that our narratives,as much as they're insightful,
don't disempower people frombeing like and now,
unfortunately, you areresponsible.
Your parents can't save you, noone can save you, and that's, I
(22:52):
think, the cool thing alsoabout the metaphor is like no
one came in and picked you upand ran out.
It wasn't your therapist.
I was like okay, let's go.
You had to do it yourself, andunfortunately it does.
At some point you're going tohave to realize that, no matter
what happened to you, you're theonly one that can do something
about it.
Now, and I have an example, Ithink, in there of Chad.
(23:15):
I don't know if you read thatpart.
So Chad is someone who you know.
In high school his parents gotdivorced or he got cheated on by
his first love in college, andnow he's a 30-something-year-old
male and he is mistreatingabsolutely every partner that he
has, and so at what point doChad's actions become his
(23:37):
responsibility?
Of course we can validate thetrauma, of course we can have an
explanation in the past, butdoes it justify it?
And everyone's like, well, ofcourse not.
It's like well, that applies toa lot of other things.
And then the other feedback Iget is like, yeah, chad really
needs to get his crap togetherso that he can start treating
(24:01):
all his partners better and hispartners can start having a
better time, a betterrelationship.
And my response is always he'sthe let's call her Casey.
It is on Casey for the factthat she's dating Chad.
This is this has nothing to dowith Casey.
Casey has decided to datesomeone who mistreats her.
(24:21):
This is not on Casey.
The reason I want Chad to feelbetter is because Chad most
likely wants connection, wantsintimacy, wants love.
He deserves to have afulfilling existence and the
only way he can do that is totake responsibility.
My rant is over.
Aaron Pete (24:38):
That is very well said.
I'd like to take thisinformation because I'm on
council for my First Nationcommunity and so much of what
you just said applies to ourcommunity.
I find that we are in such adifficult position because, on
the one hand, we can point tocolonization, indian residential
schools the 60s school.
(24:59):
We can point to all of thesethings, but working as a native
court worker assistingindigenous people through the
legal system, I see where peoplestopped there and they went.
Well, the government did thisto me, so it's not my fault.
They need to come in and giveme a First Nations lawyer, a
First Nations judge, and Ishouldn't be held accountable
for this, because I wouldn't bethis way had all of these things
(25:19):
not happened.
And the reality that we have toface with each person is what
had happened and what has goneon is horrible and like
unexcusable.
But you're here today becauseof your actions and you have to
take responsibility for thoseactions.
Today, and wherever directionyou go, you can be a beacon of
(25:43):
light for the young people inour community, for yourself, for
your family, and start to setan example for other people to
move in a different direction.
This is day one of the new partof your life where you can put
all of that in the past and notforget, but forgive what
happened and start to take thosemeaningful steps.
But I find so many people rightnow are telling indigenous
(26:05):
people it's not your fault, soyou don't have to do anything,
and that leaves people, as youdescribed, agentless.
Dr. Sara Kuburic (26:14):
Yeah, I mean it's.
So.
I think the work that you'redoing is absolutely amazing and
it's so hard when you look atsomething like that and the
amount of like injustice that'sbeen done and so much harm
that's been done.
And it's hard to look atsomeone in the face and be like,
but it's on you, like thatfeels so heartless and I
(26:35):
understand.
And when I chose my title, Ialso understood the risk of that
.
But because I associate agencywith freedom, I actually think
it's a gift, it's an opportunity, it's and I love the way that
you just described that, becauseI understand how hard it is to
look at someone in the face andbe like, but now, fortunately on
(26:58):
you and it's such a hard thingto receive.
But I hope that peopleunderstand that that statement
is a statement of hope andempowerment and freedom, and so
I do think, unfortunately, wehave to say it.
And if we don't say it, it'sletting someone stay in that
room.
And sometimes we see people inthat room and we're not like,
hey, are you getting out?
(27:19):
Hey, the flames are awfullyclose to you, like, do you plan
to do something about it?
We're like, well, someone elsesaid it, they're not moving,
it's not, it's not my place,right, and I like the approach
of like.
Sometimes it's not going to bereceived well and I'm not saying
it's always our job to evenshare that message.
But if someone around you isabout to burn, you know, think
(27:43):
of it, think of it in a physicalsense, you would do something
about it.
And I think if we took mentalhealth and our wellness
seriously, we would sometimeshave those difficult
conversations if it was, ofcourse, appropriate and context
appropriate.
But sometimes, you know, I saythose things because I want them
to survive and I go yeah, canyou get up, can you get out of
(28:04):
the room please?
You're making me reallyuncomfortable, I'm worried.
Aaron Pete (28:11):
The other piece that I find that others lacked, when
dealing with vulnerablepopulations specifically, is the
idea that past 25 years old 25years old, that people could go
on and live their dream, that we, at some point in time, stop
telling people that you haven'treached your full potential and
it would be awfully nice if youdid, and that's by your own
(28:34):
definition.
And we start looking at, like,what did you want to be when you
were 15 years old, 20 years old, like, where would you like
your life to be?
I found that when I'd work withother people in the social
sector, they'd be like well,let's get you into counseling to
deal with you abusing your wifeor abusing your spouse.
And then it'd be like okay,well, that's a symptom, but what
long term is going to addressthe alcohol use, the abusive
(28:57):
tendencies, the negativeattitude, the acting out over
the weekend?
We need to give this person ashining light, a goal that's
bigger than just a few thingsthat are going to get checked
off in the next six months.
We need to have a trajectoryover the rest of your life
that's going to inspire you tocontinue on this journey.
When things get tough Do youfind this as well that people
(29:17):
stop kind of imagining whattheir life could be if it was
its maximum, if it reached itsfull potential.
Dr. Sara Kuburic (29:24):
Oh yeah, and I think it's because it feels so
out of reach or so unsafe wherepeople have told them they can't
accomplish more than whatthey're accomplishing right now.
There are so many narrativesthat would force someone to
think that their reality is theonly one in which they can exist
, and I think, when it comes todealing with symptoms, that's
(29:46):
one thing I just try to shy awayfrom, like, of course.
First, if you're abusing yourwife, that needs to stop.
How do we make that stop?
At the same time, we need tolook at the individual and go
what is causing it?
My entire dissertation was oninfidelity, but perpetrators of
infidelity, not the victims ofinfidelity, and I also find that
so fascinating, becauseinfidelity was just a symptom,
(30:09):
it was just a manifestation, andif you look at someone who has
cheated, you'd be like they're aterrible person.
They just need to keep it intheir pants, they just need to
respect themselves and theirwives or husbands more, whatever
it is, and it just completelymisses the human that is doing
this thing.
And I think sometimes we misshumanity by being so symptom
(30:32):
oriented and trying to targetthe symptoms themselves.
And so I think that you'reright.
It's important to dream, it'simportant to ask the person who
do you want to become?
This is who you are right now.
Let's not lie.
I also don't like the wholelike well, that's not really who
you are.
You're behaving this way,unfortunately.
That's probably who you areright now, but it does not mean
(30:55):
that that's who you need to stay, that you can become whoever
you want to be.
And I think giving people thathope and that like evoking that
imagination, I think is sopowerful Because, as you said,
they need a bigger thing todream about.
They're probably not motivatedenough just to not harm their
partner.
That, to some extent, is notgoing to be motivation enough.
But if they can understand thefuture that they can have, that
(31:18):
the person they can become, thecareer they can have, that is
going to be so powerful thatthis is just going to feel like
one of the steps that is helpingthem achieve something so much
greater.
Aaron Pete (31:31):
Would you mind putting that into context for
yourself?
You're a person at thebeginning of the book.
You're struggling with yourself-identity.
Now you're making such a largeimpact.
You have a book out, you'rehaving a global impact on
individuals who are able tofollow your work and start to
find steps, and I love the workthat you do because it can be so
simple on an Instagram post ora Facebook post that somebody
(31:51):
can absorb that and go yeah, youknow what.
That's what I'm going to dotoday in a simple kind of format
.
Would you mind talking aboutyour own trajectory, finding
yourself?
Dr. Sara Kuburic (32:01):
Oh yeah, easy question.
No, a lot of it was takingresponsibility.
I think sometimes people areshocked in.
Something I write about in mybook is that my early 20s were
more painful than my childhoodtrauma, and I say that
tentatively, but what I mean bythat is that in my early 20s I
(32:21):
was the perpetrator, meaning Imade conscious decisions that
hurt me.
When I was a child, I had nopower.
I was genuinely a victim as achild.
I had no power over politics, Ihad no power over the bombings,
I had no power over anything,and then, as I didn't deal with
(32:42):
that, those things started toinform my decisions.
And then I started to beintentional or make decisions
that actually hurt me, and thatwas a really, really difficult
and difficult pill to swallow, adifficult thing to come to
terms with, and so I had tostart taking responsibility.
It is responsibility thatchanged my life and it's why the
book is called it's On you anda lot of it was respecting
(33:08):
myself and fulfilling my ownneeds.
I think that was at the verybasic start of it.
It wasn't like oh, I'm soauthentic, I know exactly what I
want.
I'm a lie to have a higherpurpose.
At the start it was like howcan I start to respect this
person, how can I start to trustthis person?
Then, after those fundamentals,and then how can I meet my own
(33:31):
needs?
Amazing, we love it.
Then it was like okay, now Ineed to protect this person, so
how do I set these boundaries todo so?
Okay, Now I have these basicneeds met.
Let's talk about fulfillment.
Let's talk about alignment,let's talk about envisioning who
I want to become.
Where did I go off track?
Then I would cycle, then Iwould go there and I'd be like
(33:54):
great vision, blah, blah, blah.
Then I would realize that whileI was trying to strive for this
vision, I wasn't fulfilling myown needs and I wasn't trusting
myself.
What I want to show is it'scyclical, it's messy, it's a
spiral, but you can either bespiraling up or down, but it's
going to sometimes feel like acircle, like you're walking in a
(34:15):
circle, but you can also bewalking upward.
So for me, it was a journey thattook a decade I would say
Genuinely to be in a place whereI'm like, I understand who I am
, I feel really rooted andgrounded and I welcome the fact
that life is messy and that I'mgoing to make a lot of mistakes
(34:36):
and that I'm going to fail abunch, and sometimes publicly,
and that's okay too, because Ithink that's a really important
thing about figuring out yoursense of identity and your sense
of self is trial and error.
I think that's something thatwe don't talk about.
We make psych seem really neatand clean and there is nice
(34:57):
little progress to all of this,but I think a lot of figuring
out who you are and living thelife you want is trying things
and then being like I don't likeit, or doing things and then
failing and then going okay, I'mnot going to that and it's just
not taking it too seriously.
Aaron Pete (35:13):
I couldn't agree more when you were describing
that.
It just had me thinking aboutcompound interest that yes, the
stock market goes up and down,but over 10 years it has a very
clear trajectory and you can getlost on the ups and downs, but
if you zoom out as long asyou're striving to improve and
take those steps, you're goingto fall down.
You're going to go down a pathand say maybe I want to be a
(35:33):
painter and realize that's notyour calling and then go down
this other path, like you'regoing to have those learning
moments.
The other piece that stands outto me, that seems really
important, that can be such abarrier for people, is the right
in group, the right peoplearound you that are going to
nurture your growth.
I'm wondering what advice youhave for people in order to
(35:54):
surround themselves with theright people who are going to
support their growth andself-development, because so
often we can have people go whoa, whoa, whoa.
That's not how you are and tryand put you back into the box of
who you used to be when you'retrying to take these steps of
redefining yourself.
Dr. Sara Kuburic (36:10):
Oh my gosh, such a good point.
Be so painfully selective, sopainfully selective.
You are going to be molded andshaped for the people you
surround yourself with.
That is a fact and that is notsomething you can avoid.
But the only choice you have iswho those people are.
So take that choice, run withit, make it instead of just
(36:34):
passively letting anyone moldyou.
Because as human beings, we aresocial and we do get impacted
by those around us.
I really struggled with peoplenot seeing me the way I saw
myself.
This was really hard for mebecause I would experience
myself a certain way and the waypeople reflected back to me who
(36:55):
I was did not align and I feltcrazy.
I was like, okay, I don't seemyself like this at all.
So who's right?
And part of my journey at thevery start was I dropped 80% of
my friendships, 90% of myfriendships.
I completely set differentboundaries.
I mean I also got.
(37:16):
I mean I left my marriage atthe time.
I changed my relationship withmy family to actually become
closer with them.
But it was a huge, huge, hugeshift.
And you have to meet people whoare willing to actually see you
and that doesn't mean that,like when people tell you things
(37:37):
you don't wanna hear, you'relike they don't see me, you're
out.
It's not that at all.
It's about trusting thoseindividuals to reflect back to
you and, when they reflectsomething that is incongruent,
to go okay.
Maybe they misunderstood ormaybe I'm not really expressing
myself or being who I think I'mbeing, and we need those wake up
calls sometimes.
And so part of my journey wasreally establishing friendships,
(38:00):
really, really meaningfulfriendships.
My friend group, a group, becamemuch smaller.
I'm naturally an introvertanyways, and so I have expanded
lately a little bit, but I'mjust so incredibly selective and
if you think that you can be acertain way and hang out with
(38:20):
people that have completelydifferent lives, you're lying to
yourself, because you are gonnabecome who you hang out with,
and it's really hard to resistthat.
So, if you're on this journey,find other people who are on
this journey, find people whowill respect and honor this
journey and people who want youto succeed, because lots of
people do not want you tosucceed, because that means you
(38:43):
change, which means yourrelationship with them changes,
or it means it shines a light onwhat they should be changing.
So a lot of people would ratheryou stay the same, just because
you already fit in theecosystem that you have created,
and so people get a bit pettyand people don't want things for
(39:03):
you that are even good for you.
And so finding people that seeyour success as their success
and who are open to being likewow, our dynamic is changing and
if this serves you better, likethat's awesome.
It's hard, but it's possible.
Aaron Pete (39:18):
There's a great quote and I'm not gonna
paraphrase it perfectly, but itwas from a UFC fighter who said
when I'm in the gym, everybodybelieved in me because they had
the same goals that I had at thetime.
But once I started to reachthose goals, I became emblematic
of everything that they didn'tactually achieve.
And so that there can be thatthey're there for you when
(39:38):
you're on your rise up, butthey're not there for you once
you actually make it, becausethen you become a statement of
what they're not.
May I ask how did the bookactually come about?
What were those early days ofgetting this book prepared?
How did the meeting start?
Dr. Sara Kuburic (39:55):
Yeah, I remember my agents who were
amazing were like, okay, if youcan write about literally
anything, anything at all, whatwould it be?
And in my MA and doctoral workI studied moral injury, and a
theme that kept reemerging wasself-loss, and it was the only
thing I found super interesting,and so I kept seeing it in my
(40:15):
clients.
I started to fully understandthat that's what happened to me,
because although I was likehealing from it and recovering,
I never really fully understoodwhat happened.
There was no term that fullysummarized my experience, and so
when they asked, it was kind ofan automatic thing.
And the writing process wasreally interesting because, as
(40:36):
you know, to explain somethingto someone you need to
understand it really well.
You can like half-assunderstand it if you're like
trying to just get through theworld, but to teach someone else
you must really understand it.
And so it was a lot of readingand a lot of learning for me too
to really like solidify anddiscern things.
And then it almost felt like abit of therapy for me to relive
(40:59):
everything and to try to expressmy own experience in a way that
would be helpful to others, andso it was intense, but it kind
of came in massive like spurts,like I would write three
chapters in like two weeks andthen I would like struggle to
write one chapter for like fourmonths.
And then I knew it wasinteresting because I got to
(41:20):
learn about myself, where I waslike the fact that it's not
coming means it's not fullyaligned.
That was my takeaway and itmeans I'm forcing this chapter,
I'm forcing this point, when Idon't find this point
interesting or like it's kind ofirrelevant, and I know that
they want me to write about it.
But I couldn't care less.
And there were certain topicsthat I was like everyone's
written about this, everyone andtheir mother has written about
(41:41):
boundaries.
Do you know what I mean?
But it's like how can I makesure that I'm portraying it in a
way that still feels fun andexciting and different for me?
And so it was really cool.
I got to learn a lot aboutmyself as a creative, as a
writer, as a human being.
And it was a very personal book.
As I said, it's the first timeI've ever spoken about my life
(42:02):
experiences.
And so, right, a couple of daysbefore I got out, I wasn't even
scared about like will peoplelike the content?
It was more.
Although some may not.
It was more like wow, this isso vulnerable.
I think writing a book is anextra level of vulnerability
that people assume I would beaccustomed to, given that I run
a social media page and writeall the time, but it really felt
(42:24):
very, very vulnerable and thatwas one of the biggest surprises
for me.
And now it's out there in theworld living its whole life.
Aaron Pete (42:35):
It's out there in the world.
Would you mind definingself-loss?
Dr. Sara Kuburic (42:40):
Yeah.
So I have two definitions.
One is lack of it'sself-restrangement, lack of
alignment or congruency withourself.
And then my favorite definitionis self-loss, is our failed
responsibility to be the self.
Self which essentially meansyou have participated and you
(43:01):
are not yourself because of you,and I think that so many of us
are an autopilot or sleepwalkingthrough life.
I think a lot of us don'tunderstand why we're not
ourselves, and this definitionkind of highlights why that
might be happening for us.
Aaron Pete (43:22):
Would you mind talking a little bit about the
brilliance behind the cover andthe circle?
Dr. Sara Kuburic (43:28):
So the circle is actually a mirror, which I
think is really fun.
And I don't even I don'tremember how this came about,
but I always go like just lookat yourself and face yourself
and I think my I think it was mypublishers that were like
that's great.
And then I don't want tomis-credit someone but we ended
(43:52):
up with a mirror and we were soexcited because it's almost
clear enough to see yourself andI think when you pick up and
you go, it's on me and you seethe me you're talking about.
It's pretty powerful and I'm sohappy that the US trans or not
translation, but the US editionhas the mirror on it.
It's very special to me.
Aaron Pete (44:11):
I couldn't agree more.
I didn't fully understand itwhen I saw the audiobook because
it is not in fact a mirror, butit looked kind of like an egg.
But then, once I got the copy,I was looking at it and I was
like, wow, that is such athoughtful way of raising it to
the person when you are tryingto figure these things out, to
really put it back to the personthat it is on you.
(44:32):
So it all kind of came togetherin a really thoughtful way.
Dr. Sara Kuburic (44:35):
Thank you.
One of my princes like Ithought it was a giant period,
like really making a point, andI was like, okay, it does sound
a little like Sarah, but like itwasn't that aggressive.
No, it's not a giant period,it's just, it's a mirror.
Aaron Pete (44:49):
What has the impact of the book been in your unique
circumstance?
I would say you have a betterrelationship with an audience
than other people might have,who are authors, who don't have
social media pages.
That reaches many people, so itseems like you might have a
better opportunity to kind ofsee the impact of the book can
have.
What has that experience beenlike?
Dr. Sara Kuburic (45:10):
It's interesting to see the
experience because I get justthe most overwhelmingly like
vulnerable, raw, beautiful DMsand emails about this book.
But yet it's also a book that'sreally like private to people
and that's really intense forpeople and so seeing how the
(45:32):
audience reacts to it forwardfacing versus like private DMs
is really fascinating.
Everyone is super positive butthey're like that's book
recommend and then in the DMs oflike this is all that it's done
for me and I think it's becauseit's so vulnerable and private
that people don't are not likewriting out their life story on
(45:53):
the recommendation when they'relike tagging me in their story.
But I thought that that was aninteresting discrepancy.
It's the same thing when Iwrite a really intense post,
people will save it so much butthey won't like it.
Sometimes that's because theydon't want others to know that
like that really resonated withthem or that's what they're
struggling with, and I alwaysfind that the most hard hitting
things it's like lots of saves,lots of DMs, and then I'll look
(46:17):
at it.
I were just to look at the likesand like wow, this really bombs
, like why doesn't anyone care?
And then it's like completelydifferent and this was
interesting to see, like theamount of DMs I've received has
just been like life changing forme and it fills my heart and I
have the best community ever andthey're outwardly obviously
supportive as well.
But when I get those details,that's really what like melts my
(46:40):
heart.
When someone sits down is likeI'm going to tell you exactly
how this changed my life.
That to me is just like even ifI got one of those DMs, I think
it would have made the wholeprocess worth it.
But the fact that I'mprivileged enough to get many of
those is really humbling and Ilove my community and it's been
really positive, and so I hopethere'll be another book one day
.
Aaron Pete (47:01):
A few more quick questions and I just I can't
thank you enough for your time.
The next one is around thereference list at the end for
other books people can get.
One of the pieces that I reallyloved about it was they weren't
all just about like self helpor books that are sort of
similar.
Some of them were really deepbooks that just kind of walk you
through the human experience,for lack of a better word, can
(47:23):
you talk about the referencesand the recommendations for
books?
Dr. Sara Kuburic (47:27):
Yeah, I think not.
How do I say this?
Self help books are not theonly books that can be helpful,
and I don't always enjoy selfhelp books, and some of the
books that have changed my lifethe most weren't self help, and
so I think there are lots ofways we receive information.
(47:47):
For me, I love receiving itthrough narratives, and so I had
some of my favorite likephilosophers or novelists that
impacted my work very personally, but they weren't psychologists
, and so I just wanted to give avariety, because I don't know
what's going to resonate withsomeone, and I think it's
important not to make it onedimensional, like here's self
(48:09):
help on the self, and just readthat.
I think it's really nice toexpand to different disciplines,
such as philosophy, and so Ijust wanted people to know the
books that have impacted me,some of my favorite books, the
books that have fed into my book, and then also something that
might be helpful for them.
Aaron Pete (48:31):
Recommendation, if you're open to it, would be a
music list of recommendationsfor music that is insightful,
like.
One of my favorite rappers ofall time is NF, and he hits on a
lot of these deep topics offiguring out who you are, like
his four albums where theyoutline the journey he's been on
, and this most recent one onhope and finding himself and
(48:53):
being comfortable in his ownskin and letting the dark side
of him go.
These are things I think thatare vulnerable to people.
I don't hear a lot of peopletalk about their favorite music
or music that inspires them butthat can just motivate you when
you're at the gym or it's whereyou go when you're crying on a
bad day, and I would befascinated to hear some of your
favorite artists that help youget through those tough days and
(49:15):
help you keep on that trackwhen you feel so misunderstood
by the world.
Dr. Sara Kuburic (49:19):
Oh my gosh, this is hard, you know.
It would be fun to have alittle playlist because what
happens in my brain is, when Ihear a song, it's always
associated with a period of timein my life or with a person
almost immediately, and so it'dbe interesting to transition
from like early 20s into like30s, to be like here are all the
(49:40):
songs I love.
Okay, I mean, I don't knowimpacts, but people I love is
like Bruno major, not sure ifyou've heard of him.
He's a jazz guitarist who nowsings and I just thought a
(50:01):
concert of his.
I'm always inspired by peoplewho have so much meaning behind
their lyrics and I obviously amvery impacted by music.
A lot of my piano here, but alot of my family.
There are musicians, and sothat's something that's really
close to my heart.
I love Taylor Swift now becauseI feel like I grew up with her
(50:21):
and it's interesting to like be15 and figuring out your first
love and then hear someone elsesay it.
I think there's somethingreally powerful about human
connection.
But I have a really wide like.
Now I'm more into just listeningto a lot of classical music, a
lot of cello concertos, so I'vebeen through everything, but I I
(50:42):
love a good throwback if I'm atthe gym or like really
frustrated, or I sometimes tohelp me.
Actually it's interesting, Ihave a playlist.
I'm just thinking of this andit's a rant and you can edit it,
but for each chapter I had aplaylist on Spotify, because I
would try to like get back intothat head space.
So it would be like Rihanna,you know in my 20s, or it would
(51:03):
be like Eminem, or it would besomeone I was listening to at
the time, and then I wouldlisten to that song to try to be
like okay, sarah a 22, sarah a22, and just like channel that
energy.
And so I listened to a lotwhile I was kind of writing.
And then now I'm very eclectic,so I didn't give you an answer,
but that's an answer.
Aaron Pete (51:24):
That was a very good answer.
How, where do you hope to takethings into the future?
Do you have any goals for 2024,the next five years, any big,
lofty goals that you can tell usabout?
Dr. Sara Kuburic (51:36):
Not that I can tell you about, but I did start
something called thePhenomenological Society.
It's an existential society andthat's just like a fun passion
project.
It hasn't been hard launched oranything and that's for anyone
who's interested in just kind ofexploring their existence from
a philosophy lens.
(51:57):
I co created it with one of mybest friends.
We write weekly essays and wejust try to kind of give a bit
of education aboutexistentialism and how we
implement something that seemsso theoretical into our everyday
lives.
And so if you're kind of aphilosophy nerd and you're into
(52:18):
the, you know absurdity and theabyss of existence, this is
where I go a little dark, right,because, like in psych, I try
to keep it like yay.
And then I was like, to behonest, there's a part of me
that that is not that optimisticall the time and I wanted to
find a way to be true to her andgive her a voice.
And so this is not that I findexistentialism depressing, but
(52:43):
it is a lot more challenging andwhen I want to sit with that
kind of darkness or that void oror those questions are really
intense.
This is kind of where I expressmyself.
So I started this club and it'sreally fun.
I mean, it's like one stopstack.
Check it out if you want to.
Aaron Pete (52:58):
Brilliant.
Would you mind telling peoplehow they can follow you on
Instagram, Twitter, Facebook?
Dr. Sara Kuburic (53:04):
Yeah, of course.
So Instagram is my mainplatform because that's where
I'm the most engaged and that'sat millenialtherapist.
My website is Sarah dashKubrickcom.
You can get my book anywherebooks are sold.
It's currently being translated, I think, to 16 languages.
So it's going to be everywhereis the hope.
(53:25):
And if you are interested inpsych content, that's longer
form than my Instagram.
I do have a newsletter notesfrom my phone on sub stack and
then if you're interested in thephilosophy side of things, it's
called the phenomenologicalsociety, also on the sub stack.
Aaron Pete (53:42):
I love it.
I love the book so much.
I really enjoyed the the audiobook version and I was so
grateful that you narrated ityourself because it just adds
that personal connection and Ithought that was so valuable.
I highly recommend people gocheck out your book, listen to
the audio book.
I think it just adds that extrapersonal element to it that I
(54:03):
think is really important whenyou're going through such
vulnerable topics.
It gives you that real worldunderstanding.
Sarah, I can't thank you enoughfor being willing to do this.
I've been looking forward tothis since your book dropped.
Since I was able to read it,I've been getting excited, so I
really appreciate you beingwilling to take the time to do
this.
Dr. Sara Kuburic (54:19):
Oh my gosh, it's my pleasure anytime.
It was really fun.
You asked questions I couldn'tanswer, which is always which I
always look forward to, like themusic one, no idea, but I I
absolutely had a blast and thankyou so much for having me.
Aaron Pete (54:35):
Brilliant.
I have to do one more shout out, and it's to a woman named
Kylie Bartell, who knew youduring your time in school and
she was the one in our firstinterview together.
She mentioned your work and shesaid I go to her Instagram page
for inspiration and insightswhen I'm working with clients
and I was like who is this?
Person went and searched youand I've been a fan and that was
two years ago, I believe, soI'm going to follow you and work
(54:57):
with you.
Dr. Sara Kuburic (54:58):
Oh my gosh, what, what.
That is so sweet.
Thank you so much.
She's.
That's really kind, amazing,how cool.
Aaron Pete (55:07):
Absolutely.
Welcome back to another episode of the Bigger
than Me podcast.
Here is your host, aaron Self.
Love, self acceptance, selftalk these are words we hear all
the time, but it's way harderto implement than people realize
.
Today, I'm speaking with theauthor of it's On Me.
She's known on Instagram as theMillennial Therapist.
My guest today is Sarah Kubrick.
(00:22):
Sarah, I cannot tell you howlong I've been looking forward
to doing this interview.
Would you please introduceyourself for listeners who might
not be acquainted with yourwork?
Dr. Sara Kuburic (00:33):
Thank, you so much for having me.
I am Dr Sarah Kubrick.
I'm often known as theMillennial Therapist because of
my handle on Instagram, and I'man existential psychotherapist
that specializes in identity,moral trauma and relationships.
Aaron Pete (00:50):
You have an incredible book that I highly
recommend people check out.
It's called, it's On Me, andI'm wondering if we could
perhaps start from the beginning, because I found that to be one
of the most important parts ofthe book, because the first step
to solving a problem isadmitting that there is one, and
that can be the hurdle that Ifelt like you broke down really
(01:11):
well For listeners.
Would you mind taking us backto your personal life and the
challenges you were starting toovercome in your own life and
the steps you were able to takefrom that?
Dr. Sara Kuburic (01:23):
Yeah, of course I'm really fun writing
the book because I'm a prettyprivate person.
People don't know very muchabout me and it was the first
time that I incorporated anautobiographical piece, and I
think because I wanted people toknow.
It's something I haveexperienced and something I have
been through, and hopefully mystory will help them.
(01:43):
So the book opens up with mebeing roughly I don't know, in
my early 20s in a bar in LAchatting to a friend, and this
time I was in grad school, I wasmarried and everything about my
life seemed very idyllic, verysociety approved.
I got lots of pats on the backand I was chatting to my friend,
(02:07):
who is from college and we werecatching up.
So I was telling him about mylife, and something that's
really cool is, instead ofsaying wow, that's amazing, you
must be so happy, which I thinkis an imposition, I'm telling
the other person they shouldfeel happy.
He just simply asked like wow,that's a lot going on.
Are you happy?
And my whole story begins withthat one question, because the
(02:32):
answer was so obviously no, butit was not an answer that I saw
until that very moment, and soduring this time of my life I
was quite emotionallyunavailable.
I didn't express my emotionvery readily.
I was like I'm in LA, crying,bawling my eyes out at a bar
where everyone is clearly veryuncomfortable, because I don't
(02:54):
know what's happening and myfriend is clearly very
uncomfortable and I justcouldn't contain it.
I think it's the first time Iallowed myself to truly ask that
question and answer thatquestion.
And then I went into thebathroom because I was like I
need to really collect myself, Ineed to pull it together and I
remember like splashing my faceand looking in a mirror and then
(03:16):
being like who is this girl?
Like I understand it's me and Iunderstand like she's mirroring
all the things I'm doing, andit wasn't like dissociation, but
it was kind of like she's acomplete stranger to me.
I have no feelings for youexcept disdain.
I very much.
I think it was the first time Irealized that I hated myself a
(03:39):
little bit and that soundsreally intense, but it was.
And I think the reason I hatedmyself and we'll talk about this
more is because I realized thata big part of why I was so
miserable was on me and I thinkhe was in that moment where it's
like oh, I am not happy, oh andyou're to blame.
(04:02):
And so it was this really,really intense moment.
Afterwards, just like everyoneelse, I went to my hotel room, I
ordered room service, I watchedfriends and I was like phew,
that was like really intense.
I'm glad it's over.
I was completely like.
I was like, wow, howembarrassing, what a journey
Like it's, just like wow, Ireally had a breakthrough and
(04:24):
just pretending my life wasgoing to go back to normal and
he didn't.
So there were a couple ofevents that happened afterwards
and we can, you know, talk aboutthem if that's something you're
interested in.
But this was one big event thatkind of broke me in terms of my
denial, my suppression of mychildhood trauma of the
decisions I was making in themoment that were contributing to
(04:45):
me being miserable.
All of these things became veryclear to me very suddenly, and
then my life drastically changed.
Aaron Pete (04:53):
Yes, I definitely like to dive more into those
things, but there's one piecethat I'd like to hone in on, and
it's the power of a highquality question.
That doesn't have like anexpectation with it, and as an
interviewer, it just interestsme because I was thinking about
what I love in an interview, andit isn't necessarily just the
answer.
It's when I get to see theperson I'm asking learn
(05:16):
something about themselves bybeing given the opportunity to
be asked a certain question thatnobody's ever posed before.
So what did it mean to havethat question asked and what
role can that play in peoplegrowing I love that.
Dr. Sara Kuburic (05:28):
You're like a therapist.
That's what we love, too iswhen you ask a question and I
love the way you articulatedthat it's about not having an
expectation when it comes to theother person's answer.
This is so powerful and mostpeople we do have an expectation
and the person knows we have anexpectation.
So when you ask someone likehey, how's your day, we expect
(05:50):
them to say it's fine, it's good, it's whatever, and they expect
us to expect them to say that,and then in the end, there's no
genuine connection or processingor insight for either
individual.
So what was your question?
Because I got really carriedaway and excited about what you
said and then I forgot yourquestion.
Aaron Pete (06:06):
It seems like this question was the genesis for so
much growth and I'm justwondering what role does that
play in helping people takethese meaningful steps in their
lives?
Because it's not always just aninternal click.
I get it.
I read a book, I understand itnow.
Sometimes it's an externalforce of a good question that
makes somebody go whoa, likeyou're putting this in this new
perspective and now I'm able totake these next steps.
Dr. Sara Kuburic (06:28):
Yeah, it's a lot about facing the truth.
I think we can't create changewithout self-awareness, and
self-awareness comes with a lotof truth and I think the power
of that, of having it beexternal sometimes, is that we
can't avoid the answer.
Sometimes we can ask questionsto ourselves in a way that will
(06:50):
feel comfortable answering.
So there's a bit ofmanipulation of the truth.
But when someone flat out,point blank asks you a certain
question and you have to answerand you're aware that you're
either going to lie to them andyourself or you're just going to
be honest and you hear thatanswer organically come out of
you, I think that's what I wasshocked by.
(07:12):
I didn't want to admit, I wasunhappy at that moment.
I wasn't like, oh, wow, okay,I'll be honest with everyone.
I literally heard myself.
I don't even think I answered.
I think I just started cryingand I think that was the really
cool thing about my journey withmy body.
I probably, if it was up to justmy cognition, would have lied
(07:34):
Not to him but to myself.
I would have been like, yeah,totally, so many good things.
Hashtag, grateful that girlfrom the bombshell, like you
know, shelter she would havekilled to have this life, and I
think that was for me like Icame from a really interesting
and intense background.
But it's like I should begrateful for these things and
society tells me I should begrateful for these things and
(07:56):
part of me was grateful for them.
So I think if it was just acognitive response, I would have
been like, yeah, you know, yeah, absolutely.
So many wonderful things.
And I felt really betrayed by mybody in that moment, because my
body answered the question inthe most honest way that I
cognitively couldn't have andit's kind of ripped that veil
and it was like you're crying.
(08:17):
So do with that as you will,but the fact that the answer to
that question is youuncontrollably crying is a
pretty powerful thing.
So I think we need to becareful, we need to be really
aware of how we're responding tothings, and sometimes that's
more our body than the wordscoming out of our mouth.
But I think our actions willoften point to the truth, which
(08:41):
is helpful when you're keeling.
Aaron Pete (08:43):
Yeah it does speak to the fact that we do have this
disconnect between the mind andbody, and in those moments you
realize that what you're sayingisn't always accurate, and I
like when people talk about likeyou don't always know when
you're lying to yourself, likethat's actually one of the
hardest things to be able todefine is where you're lying
actually to yourself and not toanybody else, and not
(09:04):
maliciously but unintentionallyaccepting things as status quo
that you wouldn't want to if youwere able to take that step
back.
Dr. Sara Kuburic (09:14):
Oh yeah, and you know a lot of people will
get upset and rightly so aboutindividuals lying to them, and I
often come from a place ofcompassion, of like.
Chances are they're lying tothemselves and unless this is a
really, you know, toxic,manipulative relationship,
people lie to others mostlybecause they're lying to
themselves and they don't.
(09:34):
They don't know how else toexpress it.
If they were to be honest withyou then they would have to be
honest with themselves andthey're not ready to do that,
and so it's not really about us.
A lot of the times and I thinkthat's not lying to myself was
one of the biggest parts of myjourney.
Taking responsibility for mylife and then being brutally,
brutally honest with myself wasreally life changing.
Aaron Pete (09:58):
It does seem at times that we feel kind of
forced to be grateful foreverything, and when you compare
your life to other people, wekind of go, oh well, I have a
way better than these people.
So who am I to look at thosecircumstances?
But you do have an interestingupbringing in that it's unique
from so many others experiencesand I'm just wondering if you
mind sharing some of those earlyexperiences you had.
Dr. Sara Kuburic (10:20):
Yeah, of course.
So I was born in Bosnia rightbefore the Bosnian War and then
we moved to Serbia and there wasthe NATO bombings and after the
bombings, about a year or soafter, we immigrated to Canada.
So my early childhoodexperiences were quite intense,
(10:41):
saturated.
There was a lot of I mean, Idon't know trauma from the wars,
but also immigration is notsuper easy.
I don't know how it hits foreveryone else, but being an
immigrant child and notunderstanding the culture or the
language and feeling like youdon't belong and you don't
understand was also reallydifficult.
And so I had all these superformative experiences that I
(11:02):
didn't realize were unusual andI didn't realize how they
impacted me.
Part of the reason is becauseeveryone around me normalized it
, so we were hanging out with asermon community, my family went
through the same thing, and soit was very common to be like
hey, remember in that bombshelter when that thing happened
, and we thought like that's howwe would talk about it, as if
(11:23):
it was like hey, remember when Iwent to Disneyland or when we
went to like Starbucks and likethis thing.
So there was nothing to signalto me that like hey, this maybe
had consequences and hey, thismaybe wasn't a normal or a
commonly shared experience, andso I it took me a really long
time to realize what impactedtruly had on me, and I think
(11:45):
part of my resistance toacknowledging that was I already
felt like so much damage wasdone and so many lives were lost
and so much sadness andsuffering occurred that I I felt
like, if I let it impact me, Ilet them win somehow, like
they've taken away so much andthis is like my 10 year old, 15
(12:07):
year old brains, like they'vetaken away so much from me
already that if, if Iacknowledge how much they really
changed me, that means thatthey took away even more.
And so I had to like, reconcilethat of like, yeah, it did
impact me, but it doesn't meanthat they, they get to take more
and what you do with thatimpact is up to you.
And so that was kind of myjourney of figuring out like my
(12:29):
therapist had to be.
Like you know, that sounds liketrauma literally, and I was,
like you may try and like, oh,is it?
Which is, you know, ironic,because I was studying to be a
therapist.
But we need those moments, weneed someone else to sometimes
act as a mirror.
Aaron Pete (12:46):
I'm also wondering about the process of becoming
conscious.
I don't believe that, just as achild you're you're born like
really conscious, in the sensethat you fully understand
everything and that you're ableto take it in and relay it and
process everything at once.
I remember going to movies andloving the movie and not talking
about it afterwards and notthinking about it afterwards and
(13:07):
not really understanding whatit meant that I just saw this
person and when you look back onit and I think of watching
things like Spider-Man, I wasemblematic and looking to Toby
McGuire in that movie of like Iwant to be like you, but I
couldn't talk about that.
There wasn't a movie club to godiscuss what I had taken away,
what, what lessons and and lifeapproaches I would go forward
(13:30):
with.
So I think that journey ofbecoming conscious is is a
process people have to gothrough.
Not everybody does, um, but I'mwondering about your journey.
It sounds like it somewhatstarted there.
When do you feel like youstarted to be conscious of your
impact and where you wanted yourtrajectory to go, rather than
being kind of on somebody else'sdirectory of how to live a good
(13:52):
life?
Dr. Sara Kuburic (13:54):
Yeah.
So I think, when it comes toawareness, we can be so hard on
ourselves and others and be likewhy aren't you aware?
The thing about it is you'renot going to be conscious of
things that are too threatening,which means you need a healthy
degree of inner safety to beable to face the truth, to
become fully conscious of whatyou need to, and so a lot of
(14:14):
that journey does take time,because for you to feel safe
enough to face someuncomfortable truths takes time,
and for me, I think thatjourney really took a turn when
I realized, um, after I had myfriends burrito and was like,
yay, I conquered this big hurdle, I went.
The next morning, I went on aflight and I had my very first
(14:36):
panic attack, but I didn't knowwhat it was, and I went into
pretty much full body paralysis,and so that was a really
horrifying experience, because Ithought I was going to die.
And in that moment I went.
I haven't lived and I'm aboutto die.
What a loss, and I think it'swhat snapped me out of it,
because I was like there is no I, even if I fail really horribly
(15:03):
, it's not going to hurt as muchas this very moment.
And so I took me to hit rockbottom before I did anything
about it, and I hope that othersdon't have to.
But for me, everything shiftedwhen I was like I'm incredibly
unhappy, I'm existentially dead,I'm not actually living my life
and it hurts so effing bad thatI cannot handle living like
(15:29):
this, like I like really theoptions and this is sounds a bit
grim, but it's like you eitherdie or you do anything you can
to not feel exactly what you'refeeling.
And I was never suicidal, whichis actually quite shocking
considering, like the, the panicdisorder that I developed at
that time and just how it'sfeeling.
But I was like I will doanything to not feel this and
(15:52):
that was my motivation was lackof pain, it was not this
beautiful like I want to beenlightened, I want to be
authentic, I want to live ameaningful life.
No, that wasn't it at first,and that's okay If you're
listening and this is whereyou're at the bare minimum.
It was like I just want to feelthis much less pain, like I'm
showing yeah, this is terriblefor audio but I want to feel
(16:15):
less pain, even if it's likeinsignificant to the naked eye.
I just want to feel less painand that was my motivation, and
then it became about growth, andthen it became about healing,
and then it became about meaningand purpose and fulfillment.
But at the very start it wasjust about not not being in so
(16:36):
much pain.
Aaron Pete (16:38):
Would you mind elaborating on the brilliant
quote?
You have changing my life.
No longer felt like asuggestion, it felt like a
necessity.
Dr. Sara Kuburic (16:48):
Yeah.
So this moment just articulatedbetter because I had time to
write it.
I think a lot of the times werelike, yeah, I could have better
relationships, or yeah, I couldtake care of my health more.
Or yeah, it's all suggestions.
It's like great, I could do it.
But when you realize that youhave to do it, otherwise, for me
(17:10):
I thought it was dying in thatmoment with my first panic
attack.
I think that's a different typeof motivation.
It's like no one is going tochoose to move out or jump out
of a moving car.
But when you realize it's theonly thing that will keep you
potentially alive, you're goingto jump out of a moving car.
So that's what that felt like.
(17:30):
It was no longer like, hey, doyou want to?
Like, it's not going to feelgood, but do you want to do it?
It's probably going to be goodfor you.
It was like you're going off acliff.
You're going to jump becausethat's the only thing that's
going to keep you alive.
And that's how I felt.
Aaron Pete (17:44):
This really leads in nicely to the armchair metaphor
that you wrote about.
Would you mind articulatingthat for people who haven't
heard of it?
Dr. Sara Kuburic (17:52):
Yeah.
So the armchair metaphor that Ihave is imagine that you're in
a room and the examples I giveare your coffee's cold and you
have stale crackers and yourbooks are perfectly new because
you didn't bother to read them,and you're just like sitting
(18:15):
there and you have a nice lampnext to you, but it's not really
illuminating a lot because youdon't need it because the room
is on fire and you're justchilling there and, although
you're about to die, you areanswering emails, you are
reposting inspirationalInstagram posts.
I think the irony about why Iwrote that particular thing was
(18:37):
sometimes you are doing theright things, like, for example,
maybe you are reading self-helpbooks, but you need more than
that in that moment.
So you're doing all thesethings and you hear this
internal scream that's sayingyou're going to die.
You need to get up and leave,you need to do something, you
need to extinguish the fire, andyou don't.
You just sit there and you'vealso normalized the fact that
(19:00):
it's really cozy and hot andthere's flames all around you
and you don't understand howdire the situation truly is, and
I think a lot of us functionthis way in terms of not
realizing what a big existentialthreat it is not to be yourself
not realizing that we don'tactually live our lives.
And I stopped the metaphorbefore the person died because I
(19:25):
thought that would be toomorbid.
But I want to say there aresuch severe consequences and
just because we've normalizedsomething, just because we're
ignoring something, just becauseyou're suppressing something,
it doesn't mean that there areno consequences.
And so this metaphor was justkind of like an interesting way,
using some imagery, to showthat we can be functioning and
(19:47):
autopiloting through our livesand sleepwalking through our
lives and everything seemstotally fine, and yet we're in
some real danger.
Aaron Pete (19:55):
I look at other people and the reason that I
loved your book so much as I seepeople doing this in their life
.
I look at how much they makeapproximately and how they're
spending and how they'reapproaching their life and
they're on a trajectory tobankruptcy.
They're on a trajectory off acliff.
Oh, interesting, and I'm seeingit and I'm going like, okay,
you make like 20 bucks an hourand you have a $30,000 car and
(20:19):
you have three cats and you livein this.
The places you're moving to aregetting smaller and smaller.
You are on a trajectory to atrailer park or to living on
somebody's couch, but you're notchanging your direction.
And if you come in and just lookat someone and say that to them
, like that wouldn't be wellreceived.
But it's so hard to watchpeople be in the room, be in the
(20:43):
space where the room is on fireand you need to do something,
and but it's not your place toforce other people to.
And one of the points I lovedthat you made in that metaphor
was that they start askingquestions like why is the room
on fire?
Who lit it on fire?
Who's responsible for the fire?
Rather than just getting up andgetting out of the situation
they're in.
Dr. Sara Kuburic (21:04):
Yeah, that's the part that's the most
frustrating.
Sometimes, even with the mentalhealth movement now, it's like
let's really make sure that wecan pin the blame on someone.
That seems to be a lot, of, alot of what's happening and the
narratives that are kind ofdeveloping around it.
It's like, well, it wasn'treally your fault, it was your
(21:24):
parents fault, it was yourupraising fault, and I do not
dismiss that Like and I Iunderstand what childhood stuff
does to you.
Very much honour in their spacefor that.
But I think when theconversation ends there, it
takes away agency.
It's going well, you're thisway, you're in this burning room
because you lived through thesethings, it doesn't say, but you
(21:48):
have the freedom and theresponsibility to get up and
leave, and it's not going to beeasy, like if the flames are
high, whatever contributed tothat.
Like it's going to beincredibly, incredibly difficult
.
But I just think that it takesaway a lot of that empowerment.
And so for me, yes, of courseyou should try to figure out.
(22:09):
You know why is it happening,who's doing it, and sometimes we
don't have the, the courtesy oftime, the plan, you know, and
sometimes you just need to actand then you can reflect further
.
But for me, I had to startdoing very practical things to
manage my panic attacks and then, with time, I realized why they
(22:30):
were happening.
I did not do anything for mypanic attacks until I figured
out why they were happening.
So I think sometimes you justneed to be more proactive and
make sure that our narratives,as much as they're insightful,
don't disempower people frombeing like and now,
unfortunately, you areresponsible.
Your parents can't save you, noone can save you, and that's, I
(22:52):
think, the cool thing alsoabout the metaphor is like no
one came in and picked you upand ran out.
It wasn't your therapist.
I was like okay, let's go.
You had to do it yourself, andunfortunately it does.
At some point you're going tohave to realize that, no matter
what happened to you, you're theonly one that can do something
about it.
Now, and I have an example, Ithink, in there of Chad.
(23:15):
I don't know if you read thatpart.
So Chad is someone who you know.
In high school his parents gotdivorced or he got cheated on by
his first love in college, andnow he's a 30-something-year-old
male and he is mistreatingabsolutely every partner that he
has, and so at what point doChad's actions become his
(23:37):
responsibility?
Of course we can validate thetrauma, of course we can have an
explanation in the past, butdoes it justify it?
And everyone's like, well, ofcourse not.
It's like well, that applies toa lot of other things.
And then the other feedback Iget is like, yeah, chad really
needs to get his crap togetherso that he can start treating
(24:01):
all his partners better and hispartners can start having a
better time, a betterrelationship.
And my response is always he'sthe let's call her Casey.
It is on Casey for the factthat she's dating Chad.
This is this has nothing to dowith Casey.
Casey has decided to datesomeone who mistreats her.
(24:21):
This is not on Casey.
The reason I want Chad to feelbetter is because Chad most
likely wants connection, wantsintimacy, wants love.
He deserves to have afulfilling existence and the
only way he can do that is totake responsibility.
My rant is over.
Aaron Pete (24:38):
That is very well said.
I'd like to take thisinformation because I'm on
council for my First Nationcommunity and so much of what
you just said applies to ourcommunity.
I find that we are in such adifficult position because, on
the one hand, we can point tocolonization, indian residential
schools the 60s school.
(24:59):
We can point to all of thesethings, but working as a native
court worker assistingindigenous people through the
legal system, I see where peoplestopped there and they went.
Well, the government did thisto me, so it's not my fault.
They need to come in and giveme a First Nations lawyer, a
First Nations judge, and Ishouldn't be held accountable
for this, because I wouldn't bethis way had all of these things
(25:19):
not happened.
And the reality that we have toface with each person is what
had happened and what has goneon is horrible and like
unexcusable.
But you're here today becauseof your actions and you have to
take responsibility for thoseactions.
Today, and wherever directionyou go, you can be a beacon of
(25:43):
light for the young people inour community, for yourself, for
your family, and start to setan example for other people to
move in a different direction.
This is day one of the new partof your life where you can put
all of that in the past and notforget, but forgive what
happened and start to take thosemeaningful steps.
But I find so many people rightnow are telling indigenous
(26:05):
people it's not your fault, soyou don't have to do anything,
and that leaves people, as youdescribed, agentless.
Dr. Sara Kuburic (26:14):
Yeah, I mean it's.
So.
I think the work that you'redoing is absolutely amazing and
it's so hard when you look atsomething like that and the
amount of like injustice that'sbeen done and so much harm
that's been done.
And it's hard to look atsomeone in the face and be like,
but it's on you, like thatfeels so heartless and I
(26:35):
understand.
And when I chose my title, Ialso understood the risk of that
.
But because I associate agencywith freedom, I actually think
it's a gift, it's an opportunity, it's and I love the way that
you just described that, becauseI understand how hard it is to
look at someone in the face andbe like, but now, fortunately on
(26:58):
you and it's such a hard thingto receive.
But I hope that peopleunderstand that that statement
is a statement of hope andempowerment and freedom, and so
I do think, unfortunately, wehave to say it.
And if we don't say it, it'sletting someone stay in that
room.
And sometimes we see people inthat room and we're not like,
hey, are you getting out?
(27:19):
Hey, the flames are awfullyclose to you, like, do you plan
to do something about it?
We're like, well, someone elsesaid it, they're not moving,
it's not, it's not my place,right, and I like the approach
of like.
Sometimes it's not going to bereceived well and I'm not saying
it's always our job to evenshare that message.
But if someone around you isabout to burn, you know, think
(27:43):
of it, think of it in a physicalsense, you would do something
about it.
And I think if we took mentalhealth and our wellness
seriously, we would sometimeshave those difficult
conversations if it was, ofcourse, appropriate and context
appropriate.
But sometimes, you know, I saythose things because I want them
to survive and I go yeah, canyou get up, can you get out of
(28:04):
the room please?
You're making me reallyuncomfortable, I'm worried.
Aaron Pete (28:11):
The other piece that I find that others lacked, when
dealing with vulnerablepopulations specifically, is the
idea that past 25 years old 25years old, that people could go
on and live their dream, that we, at some point in time, stop
telling people that you haven'treached your full potential and
it would be awfully nice if youdid, and that's by your own
(28:34):
definition.
And we start looking at, like,what did you want to be when you
were 15 years old, 20 years old, like, where would you like
your life to be?
I found that when I'd work withother people in the social
sector, they'd be like well,let's get you into counseling to
deal with you abusing your wifeor abusing your spouse.
And then it'd be like okay,well, that's a symptom, but what
long term is going to addressthe alcohol use, the abusive
(28:57):
tendencies, the negativeattitude, the acting out over
the weekend?
We need to give this person ashining light, a goal that's
bigger than just a few thingsthat are going to get checked
off in the next six months.
We need to have a trajectoryover the rest of your life
that's going to inspire you tocontinue on this journey.
When things get tough Do youfind this as well that people
(29:17):
stop kind of imagining whattheir life could be if it was
its maximum, if it reached itsfull potential.
Dr. Sara Kuburic (29:24):
Oh yeah, and I think it's because it feels so
out of reach or so unsafe wherepeople have told them they can't
accomplish more than whatthey're accomplishing right now.
There are so many narrativesthat would force someone to
think that their reality is theonly one in which they can exist
, and I think, when it comes todealing with symptoms, that's
(29:46):
one thing I just try to shy awayfrom, like, of course.
First, if you're abusing yourwife, that needs to stop.
How do we make that stop?
At the same time, we need tolook at the individual and go
what is causing it?
My entire dissertation was oninfidelity, but perpetrators of
infidelity, not the victims ofinfidelity, and I also find that
so fascinating, becauseinfidelity was just a symptom,
(30:09):
it was just a manifestation, andif you look at someone who has
cheated, you'd be like they're aterrible person.
They just need to keep it intheir pants, they just need to
respect themselves and theirwives or husbands more, whatever
it is, and it just completelymisses the human that is doing
this thing.
And I think sometimes we misshumanity by being so symptom
(30:32):
oriented and trying to targetthe symptoms themselves.
And so I think that you'reright.
It's important to dream, it'simportant to ask the person who
do you want to become?
This is who you are right now.
Let's not lie.
I also don't like the wholelike well, that's not really who
you are.
You're behaving this way,unfortunately.
That's probably who you areright now, but it does not mean
(30:55):
that that's who you need to stay, that you can become whoever
you want to be.
And I think giving people thathope and that like evoking that
imagination, I think is sopowerful Because, as you said,
they need a bigger thing todream about.
They're probably not motivatedenough just to not harm their
partner.
That, to some extent, is notgoing to be motivation enough.
But if they can understand thefuture that they can have, that
(31:18):
the person they can become, thecareer they can have, that is
going to be so powerful thatthis is just going to feel like
one of the steps that is helpingthem achieve something so much
greater.
Aaron Pete (31:31):
Would you mind putting that into context for
yourself?
You're a person at thebeginning of the book.
You're struggling with yourself-identity.
Now you're making such a largeimpact.
You have a book out, you'rehaving a global impact on
individuals who are able tofollow your work and start to
find steps, and I love the workthat you do because it can be so
simple on an Instagram post ora Facebook post that somebody
(31:51):
can absorb that and go yeah, youknow what.
That's what I'm going to dotoday in a simple kind of format
.
Would you mind talking aboutyour own trajectory, finding
yourself?
Dr. Sara Kuburic (32:01):
Oh yeah, easy question.
No, a lot of it was takingresponsibility.
I think sometimes people areshocked in.
Something I write about in mybook is that my early 20s were
more painful than my childhoodtrauma, and I say that
tentatively, but what I mean bythat is that in my early 20s I
(32:21):
was the perpetrator, meaning Imade conscious decisions that
hurt me.
When I was a child, I had nopower.
I was genuinely a victim as achild.
I had no power over politics, Ihad no power over the bombings,
I had no power over anything,and then, as I didn't deal with
(32:42):
that, those things started toinform my decisions.
And then I started to beintentional or make decisions
that actually hurt me, and thatwas a really, really difficult
and difficult pill to swallow, adifficult thing to come to
terms with, and so I had tostart taking responsibility.
It is responsibility thatchanged my life and it's why the
book is called it's On you anda lot of it was respecting
(33:08):
myself and fulfilling my ownneeds.
I think that was at the verybasic start of it.
It wasn't like oh, I'm soauthentic, I know exactly what I
want.
I'm a lie to have a higherpurpose.
At the start it was like howcan I start to respect this
person, how can I start to trustthis person?
Then, after those fundamentals,and then how can I meet my own
(33:31):
needs?
Amazing, we love it.
Then it was like okay, now Ineed to protect this person, so
how do I set these boundaries todo so?
Okay, Now I have these basicneeds met.
Let's talk about fulfillment.
Let's talk about alignment,let's talk about envisioning who
I want to become.
Where did I go off track?
Then I would cycle, then Iwould go there and I'd be like
(33:54):
great vision, blah, blah, blah.
Then I would realize that whileI was trying to strive for this
vision, I wasn't fulfilling myown needs and I wasn't trusting
myself.
What I want to show is it'scyclical, it's messy, it's a
spiral, but you can either bespiraling up or down, but it's
going to sometimes feel like acircle, like you're walking in a
(34:15):
circle, but you can also bewalking upward.
So for me, it was a journey thattook a decade I would say
Genuinely to be in a place whereI'm like, I understand who I am
, I feel really rooted andgrounded and I welcome the fact
that life is messy and that I'mgoing to make a lot of mistakes
(34:36):
and that I'm going to fail abunch, and sometimes publicly,
and that's okay too, because Ithink that's a really important
thing about figuring out yoursense of identity and your sense
of self is trial and error.
I think that's something thatwe don't talk about.
We make psych seem really neatand clean and there is nice
(34:57):
little progress to all of this,but I think a lot of figuring
out who you are and living thelife you want is trying things
and then being like I don't likeit, or doing things and then
failing and then going okay, I'mnot going to that and it's just
not taking it too seriously.
Aaron Pete (35:13):
I couldn't agree more when you were describing
that.
It just had me thinking aboutcompound interest that yes, the
stock market goes up and down,but over 10 years it has a very
clear trajectory and you can getlost on the ups and downs, but
if you zoom out as long asyou're striving to improve and
take those steps, you're goingto fall down.
You're going to go down a pathand say maybe I want to be a
(35:33):
painter and realize that's notyour calling and then go down
this other path, like you'regoing to have those learning
moments.
The other piece that stands outto me, that seems really
important, that can be such abarrier for people, is the right
in group, the right peoplearound you that are going to
nurture your growth.
I'm wondering what advice youhave for people in order to
(35:54):
surround themselves with theright people who are going to
support their growth andself-development, because so
often we can have people go whoa, whoa, whoa.
That's not how you are and tryand put you back into the box of
who you used to be when you'retrying to take these steps of
redefining yourself.
Dr. Sara Kuburic (36:10):
Oh my gosh, such a good point.
Be so painfully selective, sopainfully selective.
You are going to be molded andshaped for the people you
surround yourself with.
That is a fact and that is notsomething you can avoid.
But the only choice you have iswho those people are.
So take that choice, run withit, make it instead of just
(36:34):
passively letting anyone moldyou.
Because as human beings, we aresocial and we do get impacted
by those around us.
I really struggled with peoplenot seeing me the way I saw
myself.
This was really hard for mebecause I would experience
myself a certain way and the waypeople reflected back to me who
(36:55):
I was did not align and I feltcrazy.
I was like, okay, I don't seemyself like this at all.
So who's right?
And part of my journey at thevery start was I dropped 80% of
my friendships, 90% of myfriendships.
I completely set differentboundaries.
I mean I also got.
(37:16):
I mean I left my marriage atthe time.
I changed my relationship withmy family to actually become
closer with them.
But it was a huge, huge, hugeshift.
And you have to meet people whoare willing to actually see you
and that doesn't mean that,like when people tell you things
(37:37):
you don't wanna hear, you'relike they don't see me, you're
out.
It's not that at all.
It's about trusting thoseindividuals to reflect back to
you and, when they reflectsomething that is incongruent,
to go okay.
Maybe they misunderstood ormaybe I'm not really expressing
myself or being who I think I'mbeing, and we need those wake up
calls sometimes.
And so part of my journey wasreally establishing friendships,
(38:00):
really, really meaningfulfriendships.
My friend group, a group, becamemuch smaller.
I'm naturally an introvertanyways, and so I have expanded
lately a little bit, but I'mjust so incredibly selective and
if you think that you can be acertain way and hang out with
(38:20):
people that have completelydifferent lives, you're lying to
yourself, because you are gonnabecome who you hang out with,
and it's really hard to resistthat.
So, if you're on this journey,find other people who are on
this journey, find people whowill respect and honor this
journey and people who want youto succeed, because lots of
people do not want you tosucceed, because that means you
(38:43):
change, which means yourrelationship with them changes,
or it means it shines a light onwhat they should be changing.
So a lot of people would ratheryou stay the same, just because
you already fit in theecosystem that you have created,
and so people get a bit pettyand people don't want things for
(39:03):
you that are even good for you.
And so finding people that seeyour success as their success
and who are open to being likewow, our dynamic is changing and
if this serves you better, likethat's awesome.
It's hard, but it's possible.
Aaron Pete (39:18):
There's a great quote and I'm not gonna
paraphrase it perfectly, but itwas from a UFC fighter who said
when I'm in the gym, everybodybelieved in me because they had
the same goals that I had at thetime.
But once I started to reachthose goals, I became emblematic
of everything that they didn'tactually achieve.
And so that there can be thatthey're there for you when
(39:38):
you're on your rise up, butthey're not there for you once
you actually make it, becausethen you become a statement of
what they're not.
May I ask how did the bookactually come about?
What were those early days ofgetting this book prepared?
How did the meeting start?
Dr. Sara Kuburic (39:55):
Yeah, I remember my agents who were
amazing were like, okay, if youcan write about literally
anything, anything at all, whatwould it be?
And in my MA and doctoral workI studied moral injury, and a
theme that kept reemerging wasself-loss, and it was the only
thing I found super interesting,and so I kept seeing it in my
(40:15):
clients.
I started to fully understandthat that's what happened to me,
because although I was likehealing from it and recovering,
I never really fully understoodwhat happened.
There was no term that fullysummarized my experience, and so
when they asked, it was kind ofan automatic thing.
And the writing process wasreally interesting because, as
(40:36):
you know, to explain somethingto someone you need to
understand it really well.
You can like half-assunderstand it if you're like
trying to just get through theworld, but to teach someone else
you must really understand it.
And so it was a lot of readingand a lot of learning for me too
to really like solidify anddiscern things.
And then it almost felt like abit of therapy for me to relive
(40:59):
everything and to try to expressmy own experience in a way that
would be helpful to others, andso it was intense, but it kind
of came in massive like spurts,like I would write three
chapters in like two weeks andthen I would like struggle to
write one chapter for like fourmonths.
And then I knew it wasinteresting because I got to
(41:20):
learn about myself, where I waslike the fact that it's not
coming means it's not fullyaligned.
That was my takeaway and itmeans I'm forcing this chapter,
I'm forcing this point, when Idon't find this point
interesting or like it's kind ofirrelevant, and I know that
they want me to write about it.
But I couldn't care less.
And there were certain topicsthat I was like everyone's
written about this, everyone andtheir mother has written about
(41:41):
boundaries.
Do you know what I mean?
But it's like how can I makesure that I'm portraying it in a
way that still feels fun andexciting and different for me?
And so it was really cool.
I got to learn a lot aboutmyself as a creative, as a
writer, as a human being.
And it was a very personal book.
As I said, it's the first timeI've ever spoken about my life
(42:02):
experiences.
And so, right, a couple of daysbefore I got out, I wasn't even
scared about like will peoplelike the content?
It was more.
Although some may not.
It was more like wow, this isso vulnerable.
I think writing a book is anextra level of vulnerability
that people assume I would beaccustomed to, given that I run
a social media page and writeall the time, but it really felt
(42:24):
very, very vulnerable and thatwas one of the biggest surprises
for me.
And now it's out there in theworld living its whole life.
Aaron Pete (42:35):
It's out there in the world.
Would you mind definingself-loss?
Dr. Sara Kuburic (42:40):
Yeah.
So I have two definitions.
One is lack of it'sself-restrangement, lack of
alignment or congruency withourself.
And then my favorite definitionis self-loss, is our failed
responsibility to be the self.
Self which essentially meansyou have participated and you
(43:01):
are not yourself because of you,and I think that so many of us
are an autopilot or sleepwalkingthrough life.
I think a lot of us don'tunderstand why we're not
ourselves, and this definitionkind of highlights why that
might be happening for us.
Aaron Pete (43:22):
Would you mind talking a little bit about the
brilliance behind the cover andthe circle?
Dr. Sara Kuburic (43:28):
So the circle is actually a mirror, which I
think is really fun.
And I don't even I don'tremember how this came about,
but I always go like just lookat yourself and face yourself
and I think my I think it was mypublishers that were like
that's great.
And then I don't want tomis-credit someone but we ended
(43:52):
up with a mirror and we were soexcited because it's almost
clear enough to see yourself andI think when you pick up and
you go, it's on me and you seethe me you're talking about.
It's pretty powerful and I'm sohappy that the US trans or not
translation, but the US editionhas the mirror on it.
It's very special to me.
Aaron Pete (44:11):
I couldn't agree more.
I didn't fully understand itwhen I saw the audiobook because
it is not in fact a mirror, butit looked kind of like an egg.
But then, once I got the copy,I was looking at it and I was
like, wow, that is such athoughtful way of raising it to
the person when you are tryingto figure these things out, to
really put it back to the personthat it is on you.
(44:32):
So it all kind of came togetherin a really thoughtful way.
Dr. Sara Kuburic (44:35):
Thank you.
One of my princes like Ithought it was a giant period,
like really making a point, andI was like, okay, it does sound
a little like Sarah, but like itwasn't that aggressive.
No, it's not a giant period,it's just, it's a mirror.
Aaron Pete (44:49):
What has the impact of the book been in your unique
circumstance?
I would say you have a betterrelationship with an audience
than other people might have,who are authors, who don't have
social media pages.
That reaches many people, so itseems like you might have a
better opportunity to kind ofsee the impact of the book can
have.
What has that experience beenlike?
Dr. Sara Kuburic (45:10):
It's interesting to see the
experience because I get justthe most overwhelmingly like
vulnerable, raw, beautiful DMsand emails about this book.
But yet it's also a book that'sreally like private to people
and that's really intense forpeople and so seeing how the
(45:32):
audience reacts to it forwardfacing versus like private DMs
is really fascinating.
Everyone is super positive butthey're like that's book
recommend and then in the DMs oflike this is all that it's done
for me and I think it's becauseit's so vulnerable and private
that people don't are not likewriting out their life story on
(45:53):
the recommendation when they'relike tagging me in their story.
But I thought that that was aninteresting discrepancy.
It's the same thing when Iwrite a really intense post,
people will save it so much butthey won't like it.
Sometimes that's because theydon't want others to know that
like that really resonated withthem or that's what they're
struggling with, and I alwaysfind that the most hard hitting
things it's like lots of saves,lots of DMs, and then I'll look
(46:17):
at it.
I were just to look at the likesand like wow, this really bombs
, like why doesn't anyone care?
And then it's like completelydifferent and this was
interesting to see, like theamount of DMs I've received has
just been like life changing forme and it fills my heart and I
have the best community ever andthey're outwardly obviously
supportive as well.
But when I get those details,that's really what like melts my
(46:40):
heart.
When someone sits down is likeI'm going to tell you exactly
how this changed my life.
That to me is just like even ifI got one of those DMs, I think
it would have made the wholeprocess worth it.
But the fact that I'mprivileged enough to get many of
those is really humbling and Ilove my community and it's been
really positive, and so I hopethere'll be another book one day
.
Aaron Pete (47:01):
A few more quick questions and I just I can't
thank you enough for your time.
The next one is around thereference list at the end for
other books people can get.
One of the pieces that I reallyloved about it was they weren't
all just about like self helpor books that are sort of
similar.
Some of them were really deepbooks that just kind of walk you
through the human experience,for lack of a better word, can
(47:23):
you talk about the referencesand the recommendations for
books?
Dr. Sara Kuburic (47:27):
Yeah, I think not.
How do I say this?
Self help books are not theonly books that can be helpful,
and I don't always enjoy selfhelp books, and some of the
books that have changed my lifethe most weren't self help, and
so I think there are lots ofways we receive information.
(47:47):
For me, I love receiving itthrough narratives, and so I had
some of my favorite likephilosophers or novelists that
impacted my work very personally, but they weren't psychologists
, and so I just wanted to give avariety, because I don't know
what's going to resonate withsomeone, and I think it's
important not to make it onedimensional, like here's self
(48:09):
help on the self, and just readthat.
I think it's really nice toexpand to different disciplines,
such as philosophy, and so Ijust wanted people to know the
books that have impacted me,some of my favorite books, the
books that have fed into my book, and then also something that
might be helpful for them.
Aaron Pete (48:31):
Recommendation, if you're open to it, would be a
music list of recommendationsfor music that is insightful,
like.
One of my favorite rappers ofall time is NF, and he hits on a
lot of these deep topics offiguring out who you are, like
his four albums where theyoutline the journey he's been on
, and this most recent one onhope and finding himself and
(48:53):
being comfortable in his ownskin and letting the dark side
of him go.
These are things I think thatare vulnerable to people.
I don't hear a lot of peopletalk about their favorite music
or music that inspires them butthat can just motivate you when
you're at the gym or it's whereyou go when you're crying on a
bad day, and I would befascinated to hear some of your
favorite artists that help youget through those tough days and
(49:15):
help you keep on that trackwhen you feel so misunderstood
by the world.
Dr. Sara Kuburic (49:19):
Oh my gosh, this is hard, you know.
It would be fun to have alittle playlist because what
happens in my brain is, when Ihear a song, it's always
associated with a period of timein my life or with a person
almost immediately, and so it'dbe interesting to transition
from like early 20s into like30s, to be like here are all the
(49:40):
songs I love.
Okay, I mean, I don't knowimpacts, but people I love is
like Bruno major, not sure ifyou've heard of him.
He's a jazz guitarist who nowsings and I just thought a
(50:01):
concert of his.
I'm always inspired by peoplewho have so much meaning behind
their lyrics and I obviously amvery impacted by music.
A lot of my piano here, but alot of my family.
There are musicians, and sothat's something that's really
close to my heart.
I love Taylor Swift now becauseI feel like I grew up with her
(50:21):
and it's interesting to like be15 and figuring out your first
love and then hear someone elsesay it.
I think there's somethingreally powerful about human
connection.
But I have a really wide like.
Now I'm more into just listeningto a lot of classical music, a
lot of cello concertos, so I'vebeen through everything, but I I
(50:42):
love a good throwback if I'm atthe gym or like really
frustrated, or I sometimes tohelp me.
Actually it's interesting, Ihave a playlist.
I'm just thinking of this andit's a rant and you can edit it,
but for each chapter I had aplaylist on Spotify, because I
would try to like get back intothat head space.
So it would be like Rihanna,you know in my 20s, or it would
(51:03):
be like Eminem, or it would besomeone I was listening to at
the time, and then I wouldlisten to that song to try to be
like okay, sarah a 22, sarah a22, and just like channel that
energy.
And so I listened to a lotwhile I was kind of writing.
And then now I'm very eclectic,so I didn't give you an answer,
but that's an answer.
Aaron Pete (51:24):
That was a very good answer.
How, where do you hope to takethings into the future?
Do you have any goals for 2024,the next five years, any big,
lofty goals that you can tell usabout?
Dr. Sara Kuburic (51:36):
Not that I can tell you about, but I did start
something called thePhenomenological Society.
It's an existential society andthat's just like a fun passion
project.
It hasn't been hard launched oranything and that's for anyone
who's interested in just kind ofexploring their existence from
a philosophy lens.
(51:57):
I co created it with one of mybest friends.
We write weekly essays and wejust try to kind of give a bit
of education aboutexistentialism and how we
implement something that seemsso theoretical into our everyday
lives.
And so if you're kind of aphilosophy nerd and you're into
(52:18):
the, you know absurdity and theabyss of existence, this is
where I go a little dark, right,because, like in psych, I try
to keep it like yay.
And then I was like, to behonest, there's a part of me
that that is not that optimisticall the time and I wanted to
find a way to be true to her andgive her a voice.
And so this is not that I findexistentialism depressing, but
(52:43):
it is a lot more challenging andwhen I want to sit with that
kind of darkness or that void oror those questions are really
intense.
This is kind of where I expressmyself.
So I started this club and it'sreally fun.
I mean, it's like one stopstack.
Check it out if you want to.
Aaron Pete (52:58):
Brilliant.
Would you mind telling peoplehow they can follow you on
Instagram, Twitter, Facebook?
Dr. Sara Kuburic (53:04):
Yeah, of course.
So Instagram is my mainplatform because that's where
I'm the most engaged and that'sat millenialtherapist.
My website is Sarah dashKubrickcom.
You can get my book anywherebooks are sold.
It's currently being translated, I think, to 16 languages.
So it's going to be everywhereis the hope.
(53:25):
And if you are interested inpsych content, that's longer
form than my Instagram.
I do have a newsletter notesfrom my phone on sub stack and
then if you're interested in thephilosophy side of things, it's
called the phenomenologicalsociety, also on the sub stack.
Aaron Pete (53:42):
I love it.
I love the book so much.
I really enjoyed the the audiobook version and I was so
grateful that you narrated ityourself because it just adds
that personal connection and Ithought that was so valuable.
I highly recommend people gocheck out your book, listen to
the audio book.
I think it just adds that extrapersonal element to it that I
(54:03):
think is really important whenyou're going through such
vulnerable topics.
It gives you that real worldunderstanding.
Sarah, I can't thank you enoughfor being willing to do this.
I've been looking forward tothis since your book dropped.
Since I was able to read it,I've been getting excited, so I
really appreciate you beingwilling to take the time to do
this.
Dr. Sara Kuburic (54:19):
Oh my gosh, it's my pleasure anytime.
It was really fun.
You asked questions I couldn'tanswer, which is always which I
always look forward to, like themusic one, no idea, but I I
absolutely had a blast and thankyou so much for having me.
Aaron Pete (54:35):
Brilliant.
I have to do one more shout out, and it's to a woman named
Kylie Bartell, who knew youduring your time in school and
she was the one in our firstinterview together.
She mentioned your work and shesaid I go to her Instagram page
for inspiration and insightswhen I'm working with clients
and I was like who is this?
Person went and searched youand I've been a fan and that was
two years ago, I believe, soI'm going to follow you and work
(54:57):
with you.
Dr. Sara Kuburic (54:58):
Oh my gosh, what, what.
That is so sweet.
Thank you so much.
She's.
That's really kind, amazing,how cool.
Aaron Pete (55:07):
Absolutely.
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