February 17, 2025 • 51 mins
Feeling overwhelmed over the tumultuous teen years? Confused about your teen’s eating habits? Join us for a conversation with Bryn Miller, an experienced adolescent eating disorder therapist turned parent coach, about the profound impact of parental support on adolescent mental health and eating disorders. On this episode of the Brainy Moms podcast, Bryn joins Dr. Amy and Sandy to help parents to bridge the gap with their teens. Discover how she utilizes whole family healing to tackle the often-stigmatized experience of parenting teenagers, turning it into a dynamic period of growth and development.
We dive into eating disorders, examining the roles of genetics, culture, and environment. Bryn sheds light on the vital part parents play in supporting adolescents through these challenges, guiding them to find information amidst a sea of misconceptions. Through enhancing emotional self-efficacy and fostering a nurturing family environment, parents can significantly improve outcomes for their children. Bryn's insights underscore the importance of finding true belonging within oneself and the power of emotional resilience in battling societal pressures on body image and values.
The conversation doesn't stop there. Bryn also provides practical strategies for parents navigating the emotional landscape of their teenagers seeking independence. Learn the art of "scaffolding" rather than "fixing," offering support while allowing teens to tackle their own challenges. She emphasizes emotional granularity, effective caregiving strategies, and the significance of self-care while showcasing how parental love can transform the family dynamic. With insights from Emotionally Focused Family Therapy and Dialectical Behavior Therapy, Bryn equips parents with the tools to remain calm and connected, fostering stronger, more resilient family bonds.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dr. Amy Moore (00:00):
Hi smart moms and dads, Welcome to another
episode of the Brainy Momspodcast brought to you today by
LearningRx Brain TrainingCenters.
I'm Dr Amy Moore.
I'm here with Sandy Zamalis,and Sandy and I are going to
interview Bryn Miller today.
Bryn is an adolescent eatingdisorder therapist turned parent
coach who empowers parents toget calm and confident so they
(00:23):
can connect to both theirchildren and the parents they
want to be.
She has a decade of experienceworking with adolescents and
young adults with mental healthissues, alongside their parents
and caregivers, and sheapproaches parent coaching with
the goal of whole family healing.
As an expert in the field ofcaregiver support and a parent
herself, she founded Bren MillerParent Coaching and developed a
(00:46):
signature five-step programcalled the Response Roadmap.
She's going to join us today tohelp her mission of getting
actionable tools in the hands ofparents.
Let's welcome Bryn.
Bryn Miller (01:01):
How are you guys Good, how are you?
I'm good, I'm good, nice tomeet you, good to meet you too.
Dr. Amy Moore (01:08):
I think you are just down the road from me.
I'm in Colorado Springs.
Bryn Miller (01:13):
Oh, no way that's so cool.
Have you been in ColoradoSprings a long time?
Dr. Amy Moore (01:17):
We moved here in 2006.
Okay, yeah, the South, yeah, soyou've been here.
Bryn Miller (01:23):
I actually grew up here.
So I grew up in like outside ofVail and then went to college
in California, lived there for along time, lived in New York
for a long time, and then myhusband, who grew up in Denver.
Actually, we moved back in gosh, it was 2016,.
Right before my oldest was born.
Dr. Amy Moore (01:40):
So yeah, yeah Well, my husband went to the Air
Force Academy for college andsaid, ok, I want to retire here.
Yes, he loved it so much.
And then in 2006, he just gotsuper lucky to get stationed
back here at the Air ForceAcademy, so he was able to
finish out his Air Force careerand then here, and then we just
(02:02):
stayed.
Bryn Miller (02:03):
Oh, that's amazing.
It's such a great spot.
Yeah, yeah, I'm partial, I'mbiased, but I love Colorado,
sandra where are you?
I'm in Virginia.
I'm on the other side of thecountry, but I agree, colorado
is lovely.
I do like Virginia though.
Oh, that's so nice, so nice tobe close to everybody.
Sandy Zamalis (02:27):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaking of lovely spaces, Ijust want to sit in your room
and I just want to get a cup ofcoffee and go sit in.
Bryn Miller (02:32):
That's the vibe.
I'm like, okay, come in.
I'm like I have blankets, Ihave pillows, like kick your
feet up, you know.
So I want to create that spacefor people and for selfishly for
myself.
I'm here a lot, so I'm like Iwant it to be nice, yeah.
Dr. Amy Moore (02:48):
Well, we are excited to talk to you, so nice
to have you today.
Bryn Miller (02:52):
I thank you guys for having me.
I'm excited to be here.
Sandy Zamalis (02:56):
So we love talking about teens on our show
and parenting teens.
We just always feel likethere's never enough resources
for parents out there forparenting teens, so share with
our listeners.
How did you get involved inthis area?
Bryn Miller (03:11):
Yeah, it's a great question and I feel the same way
and I love working with teens.
I love working with parents ofteens, and so I just get so
excited.
I think there's so much stigmaaround being a teenager and
parenting a teenager and it'sreally such a cool time of life,
(03:32):
it's such a cool time ofdevelopment, and so I think we
all need to have this paradigmshift around how teenagers are
actually way cooler than we givethem credit for, I think.
But in terms of how I got intothis work, when I went back to
school to get my master's inmental health counseling, I knew
I wanted to work with eatingdisorders.
I was just really passionateabout that work, really curious
(03:55):
about that work, and as I gotinto my first internship
placement where I was working inan eating disorder setting the
kind of gold standard treatmentfor adolescents that are
struggling with anorexia nervosaor bulimia nervosa is a type of
therapy called family-basedtreatment and what it does is
really empowers the parents ofthe adolescent to help the
(04:19):
adolescent overcome the eatingdisorder.
And so in getting trained inthat work and starting to do
that work, I had the opportunityto work with the adolescent,
but also in conjunction withtheir parents and really like
leveraging the love that theparents have for their
adolescent in order to help themovercome this incredibly
(04:41):
complex, incredibly challengingmental health issue, and it just
watching it work over and overagain felt kind of the closest
thing to magic, and so I reallyfell in love with.
I fell in love with working withthe adolescents, but also
really fell in love with theparent and caregiver work, and
(05:03):
so that's kind of this Venndiagram for me of you know, in a
perfect world, you know,getting to support an adolescent
but also getting to supporttheir parents and their
caregivers and helping them kindof come together, regardless of
what the mental health issue isor whatever the struggle is,
helping them sort of build abridge.
(05:24):
It's something I feel sopassionate about and so excited
about.
So as I kind of started downthat road and did that work, it
felt like home.
It felt like this is the workI'm meant to do and I've really
been doing it since.
So it's been, I think, 11 yearssince then and I've really kind
(05:46):
of exclusively done that workand then parent and caregiver
support work, kind of.
Sandy Zamalis (05:56):
That's so cool.
I just I can imagine howrewarding that would be for you
as a, as someone working withkids and adults, to kind of help
bridge and build hope forfamilies okay, did I freeze or
did you guys freeze, just to?
Bryn Miller (06:18):
see it, to see it work.
I think you froze for a minute.
Yeah, you're freezing.
Dr. Amy Moore (06:25):
Yeah, okay, I'm like I'm still moving and they
are not.
Hold on just a minute.
Let me check my internetconnection.
Okay, it says it's fine.
Sandy Zamalis (06:42):
It says it's fine .
Dr. Amy Moore (06:43):
Yeah, all right, that's okay.
We're human.
Our listeners laugh at us,laugh at ourselves.
I like it, we're just fine withthat.
We don't care, we only edit.
We don't edit for content,unless our guest says oh, I wish
I hadn't said that, otherwise,we just let it roll.
Bryn Miller (07:01):
I love that.
I love that we're allpracticing imperfection.
I'm here for it.
Yeah, absolutely.
Dr. Amy Moore (07:07):
So I really love that approach.
I'm older than you, obviously,but you know I did my undergrad
thesis on eating disorders, likea multidisciplinary look at
eating disorders, and sohistorically they've been
intractable, right Like reallyhard to treat, with a really
(07:27):
high recidivism rate.
Right Like, so, listeners, thatjust means they reoccur right
after treatment.
It doesn't always you, and Iquickly realize so do you mom,
(07:52):
right?
And so we have to address anykind of mental health issue,
eating disorders included, fromthe parent's perspective as well
, right, we have to give themtools and they have to be
willing and open to make thechanges.
Those changes start with them,not necessarily with the child,
right?
Bryn Miller (08:11):
Yeah, absolutely.
It's such a huge, it's such ait's such a huge piece of the
puzzle.
And I think you know, when Ihave a parent that kind of shows
up and sort of drops theirteenager on my doorstep, so to
speak you know my therapy officeand they're like you fix them.
You know you do this rightImmediately, my thought goes to
(08:31):
what's going on for this parent.
They're scared, they feeldisempowered, and what I hear
from parents time and time againis I'm terrified, I'm going to
make it worse.
I've done everything.
I know how to do.
You're the professional, youknow what to do.
I'm terrified, I'm going tomake it worse.
I've done everything.
I know how to do.
You're the professional, youknow what to do.
I'm lost, right, and I thinkthis is what happens, especially
(08:52):
in the face of mental healthissues, but really just with
parenting and adolescent.
Like I thought I knew this kid,we were so connected and then,
you know, overnight they woke upone day and now they hate me,
you know, or they don't want totalk to me anymore.
And I think, as parents,there's just so much that gets
activated that if we don't helpthe parents sit with, okay, what
(09:14):
is this fear that's coming up,or what is your own narrative of
being helpless or your ownnarrative of your own self-blame
around this, especially witheating disorders?
We so often hear from parentslike, oh, is this because I did
this when they were little, isthis because I struggled myself
(09:35):
with an eating disorder?
Is this because I don't like mybody, right?
And we always say no, no, no,that's not how eating disorders
develop.
But parents still have thesereally strong narratives of
self-blame, and so often thoseare the parents that are like
here, you know, you fix my kidbecause they're so scared that
they're going to make it worse,right?
(09:56):
And so, yeah, it's reallyfascinating of how do we help
the adolescent, but also how dowe help the parent, but also how
do we help the parent feel moreempowered, because when the
parent can show up and supportthe adolescent, that's the win.
You know, I always say toparents I'm going to be a blip
(10:16):
on your kid's radar, even if I'mtheir favorite therapist and
they fall in love with me andyou know we do all this great
work together.
At the end of the day, I'mgoing to be.
I'm going to be in their lifefor a year, maybe two.
You get to be in their lifeforever.
You're their parent, you'retheir mom, you're their dad,
you're their step mom.
You know whoever it is, andthat I really want you to feel
(10:39):
like you can support them,because I, when they're 30, when
they're 40, that phone call iscoming to you, not to me, as it
should, and so it's such a coolway to support the adolescent or
the young adult by supportingthe parent or caregiver, but
also the way in which it helpsthe parent and caregiver feel
(11:00):
again like they know how toparent and that they feel good
about how they're able to showup for their kid.
So that's always such a coolkind of win-win for everybody.
Dr. Amy Moore (11:11):
So you talk a lot about how you know, one of the
biggest struggles that parentshave is that they feel confused
instead of confident, right, and, like you were just saying,
they don't want to do somethingto make something worse because
they're confused.
Right, and the only way that wecan help them become confident
is to give them information,right, to give them what they
(11:32):
need to know so that they dohave the confidence to respond
empathetically and confidently.
So you mentioned some ways thateating disorders don't begin,
right, that it isn't because themom might have had one or said
something wrong.
So talk to us a little bitabout what is happening there,
(11:54):
like how do eating disordersdevelop and what should parents
be looking for and responding to.
Bryn Miller (12:01):
Yeah, oh, my gosh, that's such a big question but
such an important question, andI think the first thing is just
that there's so many variablesand that the reality is that we
don't know what causes eatingdisorders, just like many mental
health issues.
It's not like a COVID testwhere we can say like, oh, you
have it or you don't.
You know, or we can isolate itto this single gene.
(12:22):
It's much more complex andcomplicated than that.
That being said, you know, orwe can isolate it to this single
gene.
It's much more complex andcomplicated than that.
That being said, you know,there are people in the field of
eating disorders that willestimate that the genetic
component of eating disordersare up to 80%.
And so so much of this is justpre-wired, hardwired genetic
(12:44):
vulnerability in terms of youknow how we kind of come into
the world, and sometimes I'llhear families say, well, I never
had an eating disorder, or noone in our family did.
But it's complicated the wayour genes all kind of express
right.
And then you also have theepigenetics, which is the
relationship between thegenetics and the environment,
(13:04):
obviously the larger culturethat we live in, and we live in
an incredibly toxic culture whenit comes to food and bodies and
what we communicate to kids inparticular, especially young
women.
But really we're doing it withmen and boys now almost just as
much about the value of the wayyour body looks, the way your
(13:28):
body should look, how wemoralize food good and bad, and
right and wrong and there's justso much kind of in the air that
we breathe, so to speak, interms of culture and
environmental factors, thingslike temperament.
You know what is the sort ofpersonality that your child is
born with?
What's their tolerance foruncertainty?
(13:49):
Are they novelty-seeking, arethey more risk-averse?
Again, things that are reallyoutside of our control.
So when we look at all thesedifferent factors that
contribute to the development orthe maintenance of eating
disorders, we only have a couplethat are ones that we can
really do anything about, andone of them is the emotional
(14:10):
avoidance component of eatingdisorders, in the sense that
oftentimes the eating disorderbehavior becomes a way to manage
uncomfortable emotions.
So how do we help an individualbolster their sense of
emotional self-efficacy, theirown sense of confidence of I can
(14:31):
feel sad without having torestrict, or I can feel lonely
without engaging in a binge, andthat's about you know.
How do we help you feel moreconfident navigating those
challenging emotions.
And then the other piece is thefamily environment.
And so, while they don't, youknow, while that doesn't cause
an eating disorder, it issomething where, if we can work
(14:51):
with the parents and caregivers,how are we talking about
emotions?
How are we talking about food?
How are we talking about bodies?
What's the emotional supportlook like in your house?
How are we setting up structureor parameters so it's more
challenging to engage in eatingdisorder behaviors?
They're components that we haveaccess to, and so we're going
to put all of our energy.
(15:12):
It doesn't, you know, itdoesn't do us a lot of good to
focus on your genetics ifthere's nothing we can do about
it, or your temperament or thecultural environment.
You know not to say that weshouldn't advocate, and, you
know, continue to learn and, youknow, be aware of our biases
and all of those things.
But what are the things that wecan really get in there, and
get in there quickly and helpshift so that we're getting a
(15:35):
better prognosis?
And so those are places wherewe really help individuals make
shifts, but also where we canreally leverage the family
environment.
Sandy Zamalis (15:46):
What are some of the kind of misconceptions that
are out there right now forparents on this topic?
I know you know we were talkingabout that confusion for
parents, but that's like the ageof information.
There's so much information outthere I'm sure there's bad
information out there.
So can you navigate that withus a little bit?
(16:07):
How does a parent really kindof work through some of that and
try to get good informationabout these topics?
Bryn Miller (16:13):
Yeah, oh my gosh, I know it's so.
It's almost like the moreinformation we have, the harder
it gets to navigate Right.
I think it's so tricky andthere's so many misconceptions
about eating disorders inparticular, but I think you know
the idea that it's that.
It's that, the idea that it'sabout that it's vain or that
(16:33):
it's surface level I hear thisfrom parents all the time.
Like you know, we didn't raiseour child to be so worried about
their appearance and I thinkwhat that really misses is the
parent's opportunity toempathize with that.
It's much bigger than that andit's less about oh, I want to
look a certain way, and it'smore about what the adolescent
(16:57):
believes that will give themaccess to that's connected to a
very real value of theirs.
And so so often when we startpeeling back the layers of that
body image distress or the youknow, I want to weigh X, or I
want to lose X number of pounds,or I want to look like
so-and-so on Instagram that it'snot this surface level vanity
(17:18):
that it's really about, becausethen I'll be accepted and then
I'll feel better about myselfand then I'll have more friends
and then I'll feel moreconfident and then I'll like
myself, you know, and so it'sreally about this kind of
outward manifestation of thisbelief that that's how you get
(17:41):
the things that are reallyimportant to you.
That's so often even it gettingkind of conflated with academic
success.
You know, this idea of I workreally hard and I control what I
can control, and part of thatis having a 4.0 and getting into
an Ivy League school and partof that is, you know, I maintain
(18:01):
this really rigid approach tomy eating right.
And so I think, you know,really helping parents empathize
that this isn't because yourchild is vain, you know, or
really kind of surface level,it's connected to their sense of
not being enough underneath onsome level, as most things are
(18:22):
for most of us, I would argue,and also the function that it
serves that in some way,whatever the eating disorder
behavior is, be it restriction,binging, purging, compulsive
exercise, laxative use, you knowanything under the sun that so
often it's also about managingthose emotions that are
(18:46):
uncomfortable.
Emotions that are uncomfortable,and it's partly why, when we're
working with individuals, butalso when we're working with
parents and caregivers, a hugefocus, the type of therapy that
really kind of underpins thework that I do, is called
emotion-focused family therapy.
For that reason, because we wantto help parents and caregivers
(19:07):
increase their confidence withtheir emotions, so that they can
show up more confidently withtheir adolescent's emotions, so
that their adolescent can getbetter at managing their own
emotions, and that not only isthat going to help them kind of
combat whatever eating disorderbehavior is showing up, but it's
also going to help them buildmore resilience so that they are
(19:29):
better able to manage all ofthe feelings that come up being
a person in the world for therest of your life, without going
to some of those avoidancestrategies, be it self-harm, be
it, you know, avoidance of thefeared stimulus like we see in
anxiety, be it engaging inrituals like OCD, be it
(19:51):
substance use, you know, when Ican sit with uncomfortable
feelings without feeling like Ihave to reach for something to
make those feelings go away,then we've got a child that has
a greater, a greater resilienceto anything that kind of comes
their way resilience to anythingthat kind of comes their way.
Dr. Amy Moore (20:16):
Okay, so what I'm hearing you say is that many
times so restrictive behaviorsor eating behaviors or binging
behaviors have to do with reallythey're really values-based
decisions that the teen ismaking.
Right, because I want to beaccepted, I want to be loved, I
want to be included and I feellike this behavior will get me
(20:38):
to that goal.
So normally, you know,values-based decision-making is
well A a therapeutic strategy.
But and normally that can be agood thing, right Does this
choice behavior align with yourvalues?
Right?
I mean, that's the heart of ACT, but yeah, it it's.
(20:59):
In this case, it actually isdriving unhealthy patterns.
So then, how do you redirect?
How do you redirect that?
Because this is something thatthis teen values deeply to be
included, to be accepted, to beloved.
So they think that this is thepath to get there and they have
(21:22):
control over it, right, so theyhave that autonomy kind of tied
in with that issue as well.
Bryn Miller (21:28):
Yeah, yeah, and I'll take it one step further.
It gets positively reinforcedby the environment that we're in
.
Yes, right.
So I can't tell you how manykids I've worked with who are at
this really unhealthy low bodyweight where we're talking about
hospitalization or they'rehaving heart issues, where it's
actually medically dangerous,and they have strangers come up
(21:51):
to them on the street and saywhat's your secret?
Tell me what you do, right, andagain, that kind of speaks to
this incredibly toxic culturethat we live in that does value
people based on their body size,right, and that's the reality
of the world that we live in.
And so I think this is also areally important thing is not
gaslighting these kids intosaying you know well, why do you
(22:14):
think that?
That's bonkers?
You know they think thatbecause that's the culture we
live in, right, we all get thosemessages and they're not wrong
that their weight stigma is real, weight bias is real, that
people that are in larger bodiesare discriminated against,
right, and so you know, when youget into those values, it does
(22:36):
become very murky and verytricky, and I think part of it
is we can honor the valueunderneath.
So, let's say, we have a kidthat's engaging in restriction
because they were teased fortheir weight and so they think,
you know, if I was in a smallerbody, then more people would
like me, I would have morefriends, people wouldn't make
(22:56):
fun of me, I would belong, I'dfeel better about myself.
They're not crazy forconnecting those dots again in
the culture that we live in andthey might even have that lived
experience of wow, people didtreat me better, people did stop
teasing me when I lost all ofthis weight.
And what was the cost of that?
What did I have to give up?
(23:19):
And is that the kind ofbelonging that is really of
value?
It does?
It gets really murky and itgets really tricky, but trying
to help someone really pullapart, is this actually you and
what you want?
And are you really getting whatyou want from this?
If you restrict and lose weightand now the cool kids want to
(23:42):
hang out with you, are thosereally the people that you want
to spend time with?
You know what's the what is thevalues kind of embedded in that
versus what does it feel liketo?
You know, to kind of steal aBrene Brownism, find that
belonging in yourself, that it'snot about fitting in, it's
(24:03):
about belonging to yourself andthat authenticity and we carry
that wherever we go and thedifference between confidence
that comes from peoplecomplimenting you on your body
and the confidence that comesfrom I know where my worth and
value as a human being lies, andit's in who I am, not how I
look.
But again, I say to kids that Ido this work with you are gonna
(24:25):
feel for the rest of your lifelike you're swimming upstream in
a culture that is going to tellyou everything otherwise and
with the you know, proliferationof all of these weight loss
drugs and how that's everywherein the world.
Now, I mean, it's just, it'sreally fascinating.
Kids are growing up in a reallycomplicated world when it comes
(24:45):
to all of these things, and soI think you know, getting back
to your question honoring, ofcourse you want friends, of
course you want to, you know,have romantic relationships, of
course you wanna, you know, feellike you're taking care of your
health these values.
There's nothing wrong withthese values.
These are great values to have.
Is the eating disorder actuallygetting you what you want or is
(25:06):
it actually taking you furtheraway from those things?
Because what happens is it tendsto grow bigger and bigger.
It has this kind of snowballeffect where, even if it started
out by getting you some of thethings that you want, it tends
to take over.
You know, most people that Iwork with will do this exercise
where we do a pie chart of okay,if a pie chart represents 100%
(25:29):
of your waking thoughts andfeelings and behaviors in a
given day, what percentage ofthat is driven by thinking about
food and eating in your body?
And people that are in thethroes of this will say, I would
say, on average, between 80 and90%.
They are thinking about food intheir body and so think about
(25:50):
the rest of the parts of theirpie chart that have to shrink
down pretty small to allow forthat of okay, where's the energy
towards school and friends andyour family and your hobbies?
And how do we make those piecesbigger and start to shrink the
piece that the eating disorderhas taken up?
So it's kind of this false.
It gives you this false senseof moving towards your values,
(26:12):
which can be very intoxicatingand very tempting, which is why
eating disorders can be sointractable, like you said.
But when we really look at it,it's tending to be doing the
opposite.
Sandy Zamalis (26:23):
I love that your work is really parent focused
and parent centered.
This particular topic thatwe've been discussing is a
really emotionally charged topic.
For parents it's like a life ordeath situation that we're kind
of talking about in someregards, but you can also expand
that out to lots of otherthings that are going on in a
teen's life.
So how do you help parents kindof deal with that peace and
(26:47):
stay calm, Because that calmnessis what's going to help get
them through it right.
If they're escalating, that'sonly going to fuel the fire and
then cause all sorts of issueson top of what they're already
dealing with.
Bryn Miller (27:01):
Yes, absolutely, and I think it's one of the
biggest things that you know.
When parents come to me and Isay what are your goals, you
know, one of the first thingsthat comes out of their mouth is
I want to be able to be morecalm in the face of this.
And, to your point, it is.
I love it, it is.
Is it a cat tail?
(27:21):
Yes, I love it.
She was dying to get up here.
Oh my gosh, we have to let her.
She wants to be in theconversation.
I get it.
That's amazing.
But being calm in the face ofthis, like you were saying, it
(27:42):
runs counter to all of ourwiring, as the parents and
eating disorders do have thesecond highest mortality rate of
any psychiatric illness otherthan opioid addiction, and so it
is life and death.
Also, the rates of suicide withpeople struggling with eating
disorders are incredibly high,not to mention what we've been
(28:05):
finding out about, you know,despair and suicidal ideation
with adolescents already,especially since COVID, and so,
yeah, I mean the stakes don'tget much higher for a parent.
But again, like you said, youcan sort of extrapolate that to
also talking about vaping anddrinking and you know all the
other things that parents ofadolescents are navigating,
(28:26):
driving a car, and so, yeah, itis counterintuitive to stay calm
in the face of your child'sstruggles, especially when
they're really intense.
And so much of this is becauseof that interpersonal
neurobiological wiring thathappens during the attachment
process, where we get veryliterally in our brain.
(28:49):
We are wired to our kids rightthat when you talk about a child
who's in distress, you thinkabout a baby that's in distress.
You know we think about fightor flight.
A baby can't fight and a babycan't flight, right, they're not
even mobile.
You know, they're these littleblobs, right, but what are they
wired to do, instinctually, iscry, and they cry out for a
(29:13):
caregiver, and this is how we'vekept our species going since
the beginning of time.
Right, because the caregiver,then, is wired to respond to the
child's cries.
Right, and this is how they gettaken care of, this is how they
manage distress, and so thatwiring is there for us and for
our kids, and so to stay calm inthe face of your child's
(29:36):
distress is actually verycounterintuitive, right, we're
not wired for that.
We're wired to get right on theroller coaster with them as
they're getting whipped aroundand we're getting whipped around
, right, and to try and fix itright.
Oh, we want to fix it Well, andthat's the whipped around, right
.
And to try and fix it right, oh, we want to fix it Well, and
that's the other thing.
Right, like that's our first,that's our knee jerk reaction,
(29:56):
right, like our kid getsdistressed.
We get distressed right alongwith them and our next impulse
is we want to fix it right.
And, of course, so natural whenthey're little, you know, oh,
you have a boo-boo, here's aBand-Aid.
You know like, oh, you're sad,I'm going to give you a hug,
right.
But what happens as they getolder?
It just gets so much morecomplicated than that.
(30:19):
And I can't tell you the numberof times that I had an
adolescent in my office and I'mlike, if you had a magic wand,
you know, and your parent couldjust understand something that
they don't get, what would youwant them to know?
And almost invariably, thefirst thing out of their mouth
is I don't want them to fix it,I just want them to listen, I
just want them to hear me, Ijust want them to be there,
(30:43):
right?
I had this brilliant adolescentthat I worked with and she said
you know what I told my mom theother day?
And I said oh God, tell me,what are we going to get?
And she said I told her youtrying to fix me is the problem.
And my brain just aboutexploded and I'm like, okay, I'm
going to write that down.
(31:03):
And again, it's so naturalbecause we see them in distress
and our knee-jerk response is wewant to fix it.
But what happens is that intrying to fix it, we miss the
opportunity to sit with them inwhatever they're struggling with
and to help them helpthemselves, fix it, which is
(31:25):
really where that resiliencegets built.
It's really where theirconfidence in handling their
emotions gets built.
When we come in and we fix itfor them, on some level, it
communicates.
I don't think you can do thison your own, that we're not
communicating a confidence tothem.
And we don't do thisintentionally, of course.
(31:45):
Our intentions are oh my gosh.
We want you to not feel sad, orI want you to not feel angry,
or I want you to not feel lonely.
It's so well-intended asparents, and yet what happens is
we totally miss our kids and wemiss the opportunity to again
Brene Brown.
She talks about how, when ourkids are struggling, it's like
(32:06):
they're sitting in a dark roomand our first instinct as
parents, is to walk in the roomand be like flip on the light
switch.
Why are you sitting in the dark?
Don't sit in the dark.
That's stupid, right, and theydon't want us to do that.
That's not what they need fromus.
And so can we walk into thatdark room and sit with them in
the dark room and say I can sitwith you in the darkness, it's
(32:30):
okay that it's dark and I'll bein this with you until you're
ready to get up and turn thelight on and be with them in
that moment of struggle so thatthey're not alone in it.
But then they know where thelight switch is, which they
never find out if we keepflipping it on for them, right?
But some of that is also like wecommunicate that the darkness
(32:51):
is bad.
By coming in and flipping onthe light switch, we're saying
to them oh, we don't do darkness, and the reality is that life
is full of darkness.
Life is full of trials andtribulations and pain and loss
and suffering, and so we wantour kids to be able to navigate
that.
We want them to feel confidentin being able to handle that,
(33:12):
and we can help them build thatby sitting in the want to go in
and flip on all the lightswitches because it breaks our
heart to see our kid in the dark, right, and that's where it
gets to.
This idea of the first step withparents is always you have to
(33:34):
figure out what's gettingactivated for you in the
presence of your child'sstruggle so that you can manage
that yourself.
You have to manage your owndistress before you can help
them manage their distress,because otherwise you're going
to run around flipping on allthe light switches and kind of
rob them of the opportunity todo that, but also inadvertently
(33:57):
communicate that darkness is badand darkness isn't bad.
Darkness is part of life, right, and so, yeah, and darkness
isn't bad, darkness is part oflife, right, and so, yeah, it's.
A big, big part of the work ishelping parents have greater
awareness around what's comingup for them in these moments
that are really challenging,coming to that with a ton of
kindness and compassion and notjudgment, because we tend to do
(34:18):
that too with ourselves.
And then how do we help you getregulated and calm so that you
can turn around and sit withthem in the dark and have the
patience for them to feel aroundfor the light switch, you know,
which sometimes takes longerthan we'd like by nature that
(34:49):
they feel like if I don't fixthis for my child, my child will
think I'm a bad parent.
Dr. Amy Moore (34:51):
Right that my child expects me to fix things
for them, so if I don't, thenthey're going to feel helpless
because there's no one fixingtheir problems.
I think that's a misconception,that yes, when your child is
five you probably need to fixthe problem, but when your child
is 15, your role changes alittle bit in this.
Bryn Miller (35:13):
Absolutely, absolutely, and I think it is
you're hitting this movingtarget right and that when you
know, if you think about fromthe time when they're born, you
have to fix everything for them.
They are so helpless, you know,for such a long period of time.
And so there is this transitionof at what point do I step back
and let them figure it out?
(35:34):
And then, what are the placeswhere, even when they're 15 or
20 or 25, that I do need tointervene in some way because
there's a health and safetyconcern, that there's a danger
there?
And I think that gets reallytricky too of where do I step in
(35:55):
because it's actually not safe,right?
And yeah, I think that's such aninteresting the juxtaposition
between the parent thinking, oh,my child will think I'm a bad
parent if I don't fix this forthem, versus the adolescent
sitting in my office and beinglike, oh, my child will think
I'm a bad parent if I don't fixthis for them, versus the
adolescent sitting in my officeand being like, oh, will you
tell my mom to stop trying tofix it all the time.
And so it's kind of aninteresting conversation of like
, if you think that, maybe askyour adolescent, like, if I
(36:19):
didn't, you know, help you writeyour essay at midnight on a
Tuesday, right?
And I think there's also thedistinction and this gets so
nuanced but the distinctionbetween scaffolding and fixing,
like fixing is like okay, I'llwrite your essay for you, which
we don't want to do, right, butscaffolding is okay.
I know it's hard for you tofocus because you also have ADHD
(36:41):
or because you know you've hadso much going on this week and
now we're doing this at the lastminute.
How do I help, support you tofigure this out and provide some
of that like safety net or kindof like the scaffolding right,
with the intention of I'm goingto gradually pull this off so
that you're able to do it.
It's kind of the differencebetween the training wheels and
(37:02):
like riding the bike for them,you know, but I think some it's
not always, you know crystalclear of where that that line is
, you know.
Dr. Amy Moore (37:11):
Right and we don't want to step on their
agency and independence either.
Like I, I found that what wasthe most effective with my kids
as they were teens was to askhow do you want me to show up
for you right now?
Yes, because sometimes they dojust want you to come in and
tell them how to fix it right,tell them how to solve the
problem or do it, but a lot oftimes, like you were saying, you
(37:35):
just want to sit in, that theyjust want you to sit in that
space with them, to recognizethat they're hurting, to hold
space for those big feelings sothat they know that they're not
alone.
Bryn Miller (37:45):
Yes, absolutely.
And I think when I, you know,when I work with parents, I
always say you know, 30,000 footview.
This work is about a marriageof the empathy and the
compassion and the listening andthe validation and the
practical support, and sometimesit's 90-10, sometimes it's
50-50, right, but that we don'twant to skip the part where
(38:07):
we're helping them, put words towhat they're feeling, before we
come in and problem solve.
You know, okay, how can I bestsupport you?
Right, and then we come in withsome of that like very
practical problem-solvingsometimes, and sometimes we
(38:28):
don't even need to do thepractical problem-solving.
You know, it's like, oh, you hada tough day with your friends
and you're feeling really lonelyand you're worried, where you
kind of fit in in all of thisand it makes you wonder if
you're ever going to find yourpeople.
And that's so tough.
I mean, that's just, that's sopainful and I can sit with you
(38:48):
in that.
And then there's not a ton ofproblem solving to do because
that's theirs to figure out.
We can't make friends for them.
You know, we can't solve theteenage drama that's happening,
right, even though, gosh, wewish we could, but just sitting
with them and helping them againput words and process is
(39:08):
helping them build those emotionregulation muscles that are
going to also kind of inoculatethem from reaching towards those
things that we those moredestructive or maladaptive
coping that we reach for when wefeel like we can't handle those
emotions.
Sandy Zamalis (39:25):
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(40:06):
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That's LearningRxcom, brynn.
We've kind of danced around ita little bit, but I think, to
help our listeners, you actuallyhave like a five-step framework
or a roadmap that parents canuse.
Let's walk through some ofthose steps.
Bryn Miller (40:27):
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.
So yeah, this really kind ofcame out of taking all the work
that I've done, you know, withfamilies and really informed by
my own experiences as a parent Ihave two kids myself and just
feeling like in those moments Ihad this experience with my own
kids of feeling like I've gotall the tools in the toolbox.
(40:49):
I am an advanced certifiedtherapist in EFFT, I'm a
licensed professional counselor.
I've been doing this for 11years.
I parent coach, right, and yetin these really hard moments
with my kids, it felt like thebottom fell out and it was like
I can't find my toolbox, I don'tknow where, who moved my
toolbox right and I'm sort oflike groping around in the dark.
(41:11):
And it gave me such empathy inthat moment for these parents
that I'm working with, whereit's even more complex and
complicated as it is withadolescents and young adults and
mental health issues, and I'mlike you know what I need in
this moment?
I need a, I need a, one, two,three, four, five.
Like I need a step-by-stepprocess, like it can't be
ambiguous, it can't be like Ican't be like which tool do I
(41:32):
pull out of the toolbox?
Like no, I need to know it's Ato B and B to C, and so that was
really the birthplace of what Icall the response roadmap,
which is my five-step curriculumfor parents, and it's really
designed to be both like a microand a macro where you use these
steps in the moment, but alsoit can more broadly help us,
(41:53):
kind of 30,000-foot view.
Okay, what are we doing, youknow, to address this big, more
challenging issue?
But effectively, the first stepis called recognize, um, and
this is where we always startand I I always say this is the
metaphor for this is you know,when you go to the mall and you
don't know, you know you're likeI have to go to Nordstrom, but
I don't know like where, how doI get there?
(42:14):
The first thing that we find onthe map is that big star that
says you are here, right,because if we know where
Nordstrom is, but we don't knowwhere we are in the mall, we're
not getting to Nordstrom.
And so we find that you arehere, and I really help parents
work on their own skills ofwhat's happening in your body in
the moment.
What's the narrative that'sgetting activated in your brain?
(42:37):
I'm a terrible mom, I'm doingit wrong, I suck at this.
So-and-so, is a much better momthan me.
You know what are the narrativesthat get activated in that
moment.
Can we put a name to what we'refeeling, Can we label it and
that's a lot of that coolresearch around emotional
granularity of you know.
Can we really kind of drilldown, can we increase our
emotional vocabulary and then weuse EFFT to really talk about
(43:01):
what we call caregiver blocks.
What are the big things thatget activated for you in the
moment?
What's the fear and thehelplessness and the
hopelessness and the shame andthe self-blame and the grief,
these big feelings that getactivated for us as parents when
our kids really struggle, andhow does that kind of take us
down a rabbit hole?
(43:22):
So, really starting torecognize and be aware of when
we get triggered, when we getoverwhelmed, what pushes our
buttons, where our brain goes,so we can catch ourselves, so
that we can step two, which isregulate, to reconnect with your
values and this is regulate,really pulls from a lot of DBT
skills of like how do we getcalm in the moment?
Because, as the parent orcaregiver, it's our job to stay
(43:46):
as regulated as we possibly canin the face of our child's
distress.
This is like getting off of theroller coaster and staying on
the bench you know, like, wherethey get off the roller coaster
and then we want to, from thatplace, like so get really calm.
How do we get as calm as we can, given the the circumstances,
so that we can also reconnect toour values?
(44:06):
Who do I want to be, as a parent, for my child when they're
struggling, I want to be a safespace.
I want to be an anchor in thestorm.
I want to be the lighthouse.
I want to be a coach.
You know these are things thatI've heard from parents over the
years, but you know, kind of,what's your North Star.
So even when you feel lost,take a deep breath.
(44:30):
Who do I want to be for my kid?
I want to be a kid.
I want to be a parent wherethey feel like they can always
tell me how they feel.
That's a huge one for me, andso am I showing up in a way
that's facilitating that?
And if not, can I get calm sothat I can right?
And then the next step, stepthree, is called respond
(44:50):
effectively.
And this really pulls in EFFT,emotion coaching, which is this
three-step process of validatetheir feelings, come to it with
emotional support and thenfollow up with practical support
.
And this kind of gets into thatconversation we were having of
how do we help them.
Know, you know it's dark.
It's okay that it's dark, wedon't have to be afraid of the
dark and I'm here with you andtell me if you need some help
finding the light switch right.
That's like you know how do weoperationalize that and we
(45:12):
actually have scripts that welike pull out and pen to paper
so parents feel more confidenthaving these really hard
conversations.
And then step four is refuel,which I used to talk about as
self-care.
And then all the parents youknow everyone's eyes kind You're
going to end up broken down onthe side of the road and it's
going to be a bigger pain in thebutt than if you had pulled
(45:48):
into the gas station when thelight went on and filled up
right.
And so really talking toparents about taking care of
yourself is non-negotiable.
Your loved ones are downstreamof you.
What you do to take care ofyourself has a direct and huge
impact on them.
And so really reframing that,that kind of paradigm shift,
(46:09):
especially for moms, I have tosay, is how do we refuel?
And then step five is reflectand repeat.
And this is just this idea oflike okay, we got through that
really tough moment.
Take a time out.
How did it go?
What went well?
What would you do differently?
What did you learn?
Because every moment is anopportunity to just learn how
(46:29):
we're going to move forward.
And then the repeat is we holdthe hope and we never give up,
because that's what we do asparents, and it's one of the
reasons I love doing the parentand caregiver work, because
there is no one as motivated,there is no one as motivated,
(46:58):
there is no one whose love canmove mountains.
If we leverage the way a parentloves their child, I mean the
superhuman things that parentscan achieve.
You know how do we hold thehope, even when it's really hard
, as it can be, especially witheating disorders, but really
just with.
You know the day-to-daystruggles and so really kind of
give parents a place of like.
Okay, here are the direct stepsof how do we operationalize all
these awesome tools we have inour toolbox and use them in a
(47:20):
way that will help you be moreeffective.
Dr. Amy Moore (47:24):
So, Bryn, I know you have to go because you have
a client and so A we would lovefor you to come back.
I think there's so much morethat we could talk to you about.
Would you be willing to haveanother conversation with us?
Bryn Miller (47:37):
Of course, Okay great, I don't know if you can
tell, but I love talking aboutthis stuff.
Dr. Amy Moore (47:42):
We can tell absolutely, and we don't invite
people back very often oh wellthank you, I'm honored, yeah, so
we would love to talk to yousome more, but these steps are
available on your website.
You actually have a freegraphic that people can download
to be a reminder, but you alsohave, like, an online course and
a coaching package so thatparents can really dive in with
(48:05):
you, right?
Bryn Miller (48:06):
Yes, yeah.
So I kind of take all thiscurriculum and sort of get it to
people in a handful ofdifferent ways, with the goal of
getting this into the hands ofas many parents as possible as
easily as possible.
Just because I believe in theseskills and tools so much, and
so I do I have an online course.
It's got about seven hours ofmaterial, kind of broken down
into these bite-sized moduleswith handouts and resources, and
(48:31):
with that I do a monthlycoaching call.
So even if you just do theonline option once a month, you
can kind of drop in and dooffice hours and pick my brain
and we can we can, you know,kind of go through like, okay,
where are you getting stuck orwhat questions do you have, and
so that's a really cool optionthat's accessible to a lot of
people.
And then every once a quarter Irun a small cohort, so five
(48:52):
sets of caregivers, and I'llmove them through the online
course over the course of eightweeks.
So you get that kind of addedsupport, accountability, and
then you get in the room withother parents that are doing
this, which I think is just soimportant, because a big piece
of this is feeling like you'rethe only one who's struggling
with this, when it couldn't befurther from the truth, and so I
(49:13):
do that once a quarter.
It's the next one's opening upat the end of March, and then I
also do the course alongsideone-on-one coaching.
So for people that are like, no, I really want to get in the
room with you.
I really want to deep dive andkind of tailor this.
We combine the online coursewith the coaching, and then
there's a ton of freebies on mywebsite.
So there's a video all aboutusing some of these skills and
(49:36):
what are some of thefoundational skills.
That comes along with acompanion workbook.
You can access some of thefirst few videos of the course.
There's a ton of stuff on there.
I do a newsletter that I sendout once a month that I try and
keep you know entertaining,hopefully.
Sandy Zamalis (49:53):
I was going to say I had looked over and they
were really fun.
There's a lot of fun littlememes in them.
Bryn Miller (49:58):
Yes, I'm like we need some gifts in there to like
break it up a little bit.
So, thank you.
The goal is that it's I'm like,okay, I want people to feel
excited to read this and thenput a bunch of resources in
there.
So I send that out every monthand then do a lot of speaking
engagements and trainings withproviders and groups that are
looking to use some of theseskills as well.
So, yes, lots and lots of waysto get in contact with me and
(50:22):
always looking for more ways tokind of help parents connect to
this material.
Dr. Amy Moore (50:27):
All right.
Well, Bryn Miller, thank you somuch for being with us today,
and we look forward to having asecond conversation with you
soon.
Bryn Miller (50:34):
Awesome.
Thank you, guys so much.
Dr. Amy Moore (50:36):
All right, moms.
Thanks so much for listeningtoday.
If you like us, please followus on Instagram and Facebook at
the Brainy Moms.
If you'd rather see our faces,you can find us on YouTube at
the Brainy Moms.
You can find Sandy on TikTok atthe Brain Trainer Lady.
And if you love us, we wouldlove it if you would leave us a
five-star rating and review onApple Podcasts so that we can
(50:58):
reach more moms just like you.
That is all the smart stuff wehave for you today.
We hope you feel a littlesmarter.
Catch you next time on theBrainy Moms.
Hi smart moms and dads, Welcome to another
episode of the Brainy Momspodcast brought to you today by
LearningRx Brain TrainingCenters.
I'm Dr Amy Moore.
I'm here with Sandy Zamalis,and Sandy and I are going to
interview Bryn Miller today.
Bryn is an adolescent eatingdisorder therapist turned parent
coach who empowers parents toget calm and confident so they
(00:23):
can connect to both theirchildren and the parents they
want to be.
She has a decade of experienceworking with adolescents and
young adults with mental healthissues, alongside their parents
and caregivers, and sheapproaches parent coaching with
the goal of whole family healing.
As an expert in the field ofcaregiver support and a parent
herself, she founded Bren MillerParent Coaching and developed a
(00:46):
signature five-step programcalled the Response Roadmap.
She's going to join us today tohelp her mission of getting
actionable tools in the hands ofparents.
Let's welcome Bryn.
Bryn Miller (01:01):
How are you guys Good, how are you?
I'm good, I'm good, nice tomeet you, good to meet you too.
Dr. Amy Moore (01:08):
I think you are just down the road from me.
I'm in Colorado Springs.
Bryn Miller (01:13):
Oh, no way that's so cool.
Have you been in ColoradoSprings a long time?
Dr. Amy Moore (01:17):
We moved here in 2006.
Okay, yeah, the South, yeah, soyou've been here.
Bryn Miller (01:23):
I actually grew up here.
So I grew up in like outside ofVail and then went to college
in California, lived there for along time, lived in New York
for a long time, and then myhusband, who grew up in Denver.
Actually, we moved back in gosh, it was 2016,.
Right before my oldest was born.
Dr. Amy Moore (01:40):
So yeah, yeah Well, my husband went to the Air
Force Academy for college andsaid, ok, I want to retire here.
Yes, he loved it so much.
And then in 2006, he just gotsuper lucky to get stationed
back here at the Air ForceAcademy, so he was able to
finish out his Air Force careerand then here, and then we just
(02:02):
stayed.
Bryn Miller (02:03):
Oh, that's amazing.
It's such a great spot.
Yeah, yeah, I'm partial, I'mbiased, but I love Colorado,
sandra where are you?
I'm in Virginia.
I'm on the other side of thecountry, but I agree, colorado
is lovely.
I do like Virginia though.
Oh, that's so nice, so nice tobe close to everybody.
Sandy Zamalis (02:27):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaking of lovely spaces, Ijust want to sit in your room
and I just want to get a cup ofcoffee and go sit in.
Bryn Miller (02:32):
That's the vibe.
I'm like, okay, come in.
I'm like I have blankets, Ihave pillows, like kick your
feet up, you know.
So I want to create that spacefor people and for selfishly for
myself.
I'm here a lot, so I'm like Iwant it to be nice, yeah.
Dr. Amy Moore (02:48):
Well, we are excited to talk to you, so nice
to have you today.
Bryn Miller (02:52):
I thank you guys for having me.
I'm excited to be here.
Sandy Zamalis (02:56):
So we love talking about teens on our show
and parenting teens.
We just always feel likethere's never enough resources
for parents out there forparenting teens, so share with
our listeners.
How did you get involved inthis area?
Bryn Miller (03:11):
Yeah, it's a great question and I feel the same way
and I love working with teens.
I love working with parents ofteens, and so I just get so
excited.
I think there's so much stigmaaround being a teenager and
parenting a teenager and it'sreally such a cool time of life,
(03:32):
it's such a cool time ofdevelopment, and so I think we
all need to have this paradigmshift around how teenagers are
actually way cooler than we givethem credit for, I think.
But in terms of how I got intothis work, when I went back to
school to get my master's inmental health counseling, I knew
I wanted to work with eatingdisorders.
I was just really passionateabout that work, really curious
(03:55):
about that work, and as I gotinto my first internship
placement where I was working inan eating disorder setting the
kind of gold standard treatmentfor adolescents that are
struggling with anorexia nervosaor bulimia nervosa is a type of
therapy called family-basedtreatment and what it does is
really empowers the parents ofthe adolescent to help the
(04:19):
adolescent overcome the eatingdisorder.
And so in getting trained inthat work and starting to do
that work, I had the opportunityto work with the adolescent,
but also in conjunction withtheir parents and really like
leveraging the love that theparents have for their
adolescent in order to help themovercome this incredibly
(04:41):
complex, incredibly challengingmental health issue, and it just
watching it work over and overagain felt kind of the closest
thing to magic, and so I reallyfell in love with.
I fell in love with working withthe adolescents, but also
really fell in love with theparent and caregiver work, and
(05:03):
so that's kind of this Venndiagram for me of you know, in a
perfect world, you know,getting to support an adolescent
but also getting to supporttheir parents and their
caregivers and helping them kindof come together, regardless of
what the mental health issue isor whatever the struggle is,
helping them sort of build abridge.
(05:24):
It's something I feel sopassionate about and so excited
about.
So as I kind of started downthat road and did that work, it
felt like home.
It felt like this is the workI'm meant to do and I've really
been doing it since.
So it's been, I think, 11 yearssince then and I've really kind
(05:46):
of exclusively done that workand then parent and caregiver
support work, kind of.
Sandy Zamalis (05:56):
That's so cool.
I just I can imagine howrewarding that would be for you
as a, as someone working withkids and adults, to kind of help
bridge and build hope forfamilies okay, did I freeze or
did you guys freeze, just to?
Bryn Miller (06:18):
see it, to see it work.
I think you froze for a minute.
Yeah, you're freezing.
Dr. Amy Moore (06:25):
Yeah, okay, I'm like I'm still moving and they
are not.
Hold on just a minute.
Let me check my internetconnection.
Okay, it says it's fine.
Sandy Zamalis (06:42):
It says it's fine .
Dr. Amy Moore (06:43):
Yeah, all right, that's okay.
We're human.
Our listeners laugh at us,laugh at ourselves.
I like it, we're just fine withthat.
We don't care, we only edit.
We don't edit for content,unless our guest says oh, I wish
I hadn't said that, otherwise,we just let it roll.
Bryn Miller (07:01):
I love that.
I love that we're allpracticing imperfection.
I'm here for it.
Yeah, absolutely.
Dr. Amy Moore (07:07):
So I really love that approach.
I'm older than you, obviously,but you know I did my undergrad
thesis on eating disorders, likea multidisciplinary look at
eating disorders, and sohistorically they've been
intractable, right Like reallyhard to treat, with a really
(07:27):
high recidivism rate.
Right Like, so, listeners, thatjust means they reoccur right
after treatment.
It doesn't always you, and Iquickly realize so do you mom,
(07:52):
right?
And so we have to address anykind of mental health issue,
eating disorders included, fromthe parent's perspective as well
, right, we have to give themtools and they have to be
willing and open to make thechanges.
Those changes start with them,not necessarily with the child,
right?
Bryn Miller (08:11):
Yeah, absolutely.
It's such a huge, it's such ait's such a huge piece of the
puzzle.
And I think you know, when Ihave a parent that kind of shows
up and sort of drops theirteenager on my doorstep, so to
speak you know my therapy officeand they're like you fix them.
You know you do this rightImmediately, my thought goes to
(08:31):
what's going on for this parent.
They're scared, they feeldisempowered, and what I hear
from parents time and time againis I'm terrified, I'm going to
make it worse.
I've done everything.
I know how to do.
You're the professional, youknow what to do.
I'm terrified, I'm going tomake it worse.
I've done everything.
I know how to do.
You're the professional, youknow what to do.
I'm lost, right, and I thinkthis is what happens, especially
(08:52):
in the face of mental healthissues, but really just with
parenting and adolescent.
Like I thought I knew this kid,we were so connected and then,
you know, overnight they woke upone day and now they hate me,
you know, or they don't want totalk to me anymore.
And I think, as parents,there's just so much that gets
activated that if we don't helpthe parents sit with, okay, what
(09:14):
is this fear that's coming up,or what is your own narrative of
being helpless or your ownnarrative of your own self-blame
around this, especially witheating disorders?
We so often hear from parentslike, oh, is this because I did
this when they were little, isthis because I struggled myself
(09:35):
with an eating disorder?
Is this because I don't like mybody, right?
And we always say no, no, no,that's not how eating disorders
develop.
But parents still have thesereally strong narratives of
self-blame, and so often thoseare the parents that are like
here, you know, you fix my kidbecause they're so scared that
they're going to make it worse,right?
(09:56):
And so, yeah, it's reallyfascinating of how do we help
the adolescent, but also how dowe help the parent, but also how
do we help the parent feel moreempowered, because when the
parent can show up and supportthe adolescent, that's the win.
You know, I always say toparents I'm going to be a blip
(10:16):
on your kid's radar, even if I'mtheir favorite therapist and
they fall in love with me andyou know we do all this great
work together.
At the end of the day, I'mgoing to be.
I'm going to be in their lifefor a year, maybe two.
You get to be in their lifeforever.
You're their parent, you'retheir mom, you're their dad,
you're their step mom.
You know whoever it is, andthat I really want you to feel
(10:39):
like you can support them,because I, when they're 30, when
they're 40, that phone call iscoming to you, not to me, as it
should, and so it's such a coolway to support the adolescent or
the young adult by supportingthe parent or caregiver, but
also the way in which it helpsthe parent and caregiver feel
(11:00):
again like they know how toparent and that they feel good
about how they're able to showup for their kid.
So that's always such a coolkind of win-win for everybody.
Dr. Amy Moore (11:11):
So you talk a lot about how you know, one of the
biggest struggles that parentshave is that they feel confused
instead of confident, right, and, like you were just saying,
they don't want to do somethingto make something worse because
they're confused.
Right, and the only way that wecan help them become confident
is to give them information,right, to give them what they
(11:32):
need to know so that they dohave the confidence to respond
empathetically and confidently.
So you mentioned some ways thateating disorders don't begin,
right, that it isn't because themom might have had one or said
something wrong.
So talk to us a little bitabout what is happening there,
(11:54):
like how do eating disordersdevelop and what should parents
be looking for and responding to.
Bryn Miller (12:01):
Yeah, oh, my gosh, that's such a big question but
such an important question, andI think the first thing is just
that there's so many variablesand that the reality is that we
don't know what causes eatingdisorders, just like many mental
health issues.
It's not like a COVID testwhere we can say like, oh, you
have it or you don't.
You know, or we can isolate itto this single gene.
(12:22):
It's much more complex andcomplicated than that.
That being said, you know, orwe can isolate it to this single
gene.
It's much more complex andcomplicated than that.
That being said, you know,there are people in the field of
eating disorders that willestimate that the genetic
component of eating disordersare up to 80%.
And so so much of this is justpre-wired, hardwired genetic
(12:44):
vulnerability in terms of youknow how we kind of come into
the world, and sometimes I'llhear families say, well, I never
had an eating disorder, or noone in our family did.
But it's complicated the wayour genes all kind of express
right.
And then you also have theepigenetics, which is the
relationship between thegenetics and the environment,
(13:04):
obviously the larger culturethat we live in, and we live in
an incredibly toxic culture whenit comes to food and bodies and
what we communicate to kids inparticular, especially young
women.
But really we're doing it withmen and boys now almost just as
much about the value of the wayyour body looks, the way your
(13:28):
body should look, how wemoralize food good and bad, and
right and wrong and there's justso much kind of in the air that
we breathe, so to speak, interms of culture and
environmental factors, thingslike temperament.
You know what is the sort ofpersonality that your child is
born with?
What's their tolerance foruncertainty?
(13:49):
Are they novelty-seeking, arethey more risk-averse?
Again, things that are reallyoutside of our control.
So when we look at all thesedifferent factors that
contribute to the development orthe maintenance of eating
disorders, we only have a couplethat are ones that we can
really do anything about, andone of them is the emotional
(14:10):
avoidance component of eatingdisorders, in the sense that
oftentimes the eating disorderbehavior becomes a way to manage
uncomfortable emotions.
So how do we help an individualbolster their sense of
emotional self-efficacy, theirown sense of confidence of I can
(14:31):
feel sad without having torestrict, or I can feel lonely
without engaging in a binge, andthat's about you know.
How do we help you feel moreconfident navigating those
challenging emotions.
And then the other piece is thefamily environment.
And so, while they don't, youknow, while that doesn't cause
an eating disorder, it issomething where, if we can work
(14:51):
with the parents and caregivers,how are we talking about
emotions?
How are we talking about food?
How are we talking about bodies?
What's the emotional supportlook like in your house?
How are we setting up structureor parameters so it's more
challenging to engage in eatingdisorder behaviors?
They're components that we haveaccess to, and so we're going
to put all of our energy.
(15:12):
It doesn't, you know, itdoesn't do us a lot of good to
focus on your genetics ifthere's nothing we can do about
it, or your temperament or thecultural environment.
You know not to say that weshouldn't advocate, and, you
know, continue to learn and, youknow, be aware of our biases
and all of those things.
But what are the things that wecan really get in there, and
get in there quickly and helpshift so that we're getting a
(15:35):
better prognosis?
And so those are places wherewe really help individuals make
shifts, but also where we canreally leverage the family
environment.
Sandy Zamalis (15:46):
What are some of the kind of misconceptions that
are out there right now forparents on this topic?
I know you know we were talkingabout that confusion for
parents, but that's like the ageof information.
There's so much information outthere I'm sure there's bad
information out there.
So can you navigate that withus a little bit?
(16:07):
How does a parent really kindof work through some of that and
try to get good informationabout these topics?
Bryn Miller (16:13):
Yeah, oh my gosh, I know it's so.
It's almost like the moreinformation we have, the harder
it gets to navigate Right.
I think it's so tricky andthere's so many misconceptions
about eating disorders inparticular, but I think you know
the idea that it's that.
It's that, the idea that it'sabout that it's vain or that
(16:33):
it's surface level I hear thisfrom parents all the time.
Like you know, we didn't raiseour child to be so worried about
their appearance and I thinkwhat that really misses is the
parent's opportunity toempathize with that.
It's much bigger than that andit's less about oh, I want to
look a certain way, and it'smore about what the adolescent
(16:57):
believes that will give themaccess to that's connected to a
very real value of theirs.
And so so often when we startpeeling back the layers of that
body image distress or the youknow, I want to weigh X, or I
want to lose X number of pounds,or I want to look like
so-and-so on Instagram that it'snot this surface level vanity
(17:18):
that it's really about, becausethen I'll be accepted and then
I'll feel better about myselfand then I'll have more friends
and then I'll feel moreconfident and then I'll like
myself, you know, and so it'sreally about this kind of
outward manifestation of thisbelief that that's how you get
(17:41):
the things that are reallyimportant to you.
That's so often even it gettingkind of conflated with academic
success.
You know, this idea of I workreally hard and I control what I
can control, and part of thatis having a 4.0 and getting into
an Ivy League school and partof that is, you know, I maintain
(18:01):
this really rigid approach tomy eating right.
And so I think, you know,really helping parents empathize
that this isn't because yourchild is vain, you know, or
really kind of surface level,it's connected to their sense of
not being enough underneath onsome level, as most things are
(18:22):
for most of us, I would argue,and also the function that it
serves that in some way,whatever the eating disorder
behavior is, be it restriction,binging, purging, compulsive
exercise, laxative use, you knowanything under the sun that so
often it's also about managingthose emotions that are
(18:46):
uncomfortable.
Emotions that are uncomfortable,and it's partly why, when we're
working with individuals, butalso when we're working with
parents and caregivers, a hugefocus, the type of therapy that
really kind of underpins thework that I do, is called
emotion-focused family therapy.
For that reason, because we wantto help parents and caregivers
(19:07):
increase their confidence withtheir emotions, so that they can
show up more confidently withtheir adolescent's emotions, so
that their adolescent can getbetter at managing their own
emotions, and that not only isthat going to help them kind of
combat whatever eating disorderbehavior is showing up, but it's
also going to help them buildmore resilience so that they are
(19:29):
better able to manage all ofthe feelings that come up being
a person in the world for therest of your life, without going
to some of those avoidancestrategies, be it self-harm, be
it, you know, avoidance of thefeared stimulus like we see in
anxiety, be it engaging inrituals like OCD, be it
(19:51):
substance use, you know, when Ican sit with uncomfortable
feelings without feeling like Ihave to reach for something to
make those feelings go away,then we've got a child that has
a greater, a greater resilienceto anything that kind of comes
their way resilience to anythingthat kind of comes their way.
Dr. Amy Moore (20:16):
Okay, so what I'm hearing you say is that many
times so restrictive behaviorsor eating behaviors or binging
behaviors have to do with reallythey're really values-based
decisions that the teen ismaking.
Right, because I want to beaccepted, I want to be loved, I
want to be included and I feellike this behavior will get me
(20:38):
to that goal.
So normally, you know,values-based decision-making is
well A a therapeutic strategy.
But and normally that can be agood thing, right Does this
choice behavior align with yourvalues?
Right?
I mean, that's the heart of ACT, but yeah, it it's.
(20:59):
In this case, it actually isdriving unhealthy patterns.
So then, how do you redirect?
How do you redirect that?
Because this is something thatthis teen values deeply to be
included, to be accepted, to beloved.
So they think that this is thepath to get there and they have
(21:22):
control over it, right, so theyhave that autonomy kind of tied
in with that issue as well.
Bryn Miller (21:28):
Yeah, yeah, and I'll take it one step further.
It gets positively reinforcedby the environment that we're in
.
Yes, right.
So I can't tell you how manykids I've worked with who are at
this really unhealthy low bodyweight where we're talking about
hospitalization or they'rehaving heart issues, where it's
actually medically dangerous,and they have strangers come up
(21:51):
to them on the street and saywhat's your secret?
Tell me what you do, right, andagain, that kind of speaks to
this incredibly toxic culturethat we live in that does value
people based on their body size,right, and that's the reality
of the world that we live in.
And so I think this is also areally important thing is not
gaslighting these kids intosaying you know well, why do you
(22:14):
think that?
That's bonkers?
You know they think thatbecause that's the culture we
live in, right, we all get thosemessages and they're not wrong
that their weight stigma is real, weight bias is real, that
people that are in larger bodiesare discriminated against,
right, and so you know, when youget into those values, it does
(22:36):
become very murky and verytricky, and I think part of it
is we can honor the valueunderneath.
So, let's say, we have a kidthat's engaging in restriction
because they were teased fortheir weight and so they think,
you know, if I was in a smallerbody, then more people would
like me, I would have morefriends, people wouldn't make
(22:56):
fun of me, I would belong, I'dfeel better about myself.
They're not crazy forconnecting those dots again in
the culture that we live in andthey might even have that lived
experience of wow, people didtreat me better, people did stop
teasing me when I lost all ofthis weight.
And what was the cost of that?
What did I have to give up?
(23:19):
And is that the kind ofbelonging that is really of
value?
It does?
It gets really murky and itgets really tricky, but trying
to help someone really pullapart, is this actually you and
what you want?
And are you really getting whatyou want from this?
If you restrict and lose weightand now the cool kids want to
(23:42):
hang out with you, are thosereally the people that you want
to spend time with?
You know what's the what is thevalues kind of embedded in that
versus what does it feel liketo?
You know, to kind of steal aBrene Brownism, find that
belonging in yourself, that it'snot about fitting in, it's
(24:03):
about belonging to yourself andthat authenticity and we carry
that wherever we go and thedifference between confidence
that comes from peoplecomplimenting you on your body
and the confidence that comesfrom I know where my worth and
value as a human being lies, andit's in who I am, not how I
look.
But again, I say to kids that Ido this work with you are gonna
(24:25):
feel for the rest of your lifelike you're swimming upstream in
a culture that is going to tellyou everything otherwise and
with the you know, proliferationof all of these weight loss
drugs and how that's everywherein the world.
Now, I mean, it's just, it'sreally fascinating.
Kids are growing up in a reallycomplicated world when it comes
(24:45):
to all of these things, and soI think you know, getting back
to your question honoring, ofcourse you want friends, of
course you want to, you know,have romantic relationships, of
course you wanna, you know, feellike you're taking care of your
health these values.
There's nothing wrong withthese values.
These are great values to have.
Is the eating disorder actuallygetting you what you want or is
(25:06):
it actually taking you furtheraway from those things?
Because what happens is it tendsto grow bigger and bigger.
It has this kind of snowballeffect where, even if it started
out by getting you some of thethings that you want, it tends
to take over.
You know, most people that Iwork with will do this exercise
where we do a pie chart of okay,if a pie chart represents 100%
(25:29):
of your waking thoughts andfeelings and behaviors in a
given day, what percentage ofthat is driven by thinking about
food and eating in your body?
And people that are in thethroes of this will say, I would
say, on average, between 80 and90%.
They are thinking about food intheir body and so think about
(25:50):
the rest of the parts of theirpie chart that have to shrink
down pretty small to allow forthat of okay, where's the energy
towards school and friends andyour family and your hobbies?
And how do we make those piecesbigger and start to shrink the
piece that the eating disorderhas taken up?
So it's kind of this false.
It gives you this false senseof moving towards your values,
(26:12):
which can be very intoxicatingand very tempting, which is why
eating disorders can be sointractable, like you said.
But when we really look at it,it's tending to be doing the
opposite.
Sandy Zamalis (26:23):
I love that your work is really parent focused
and parent centered.
This particular topic thatwe've been discussing is a
really emotionally charged topic.
For parents it's like a life ordeath situation that we're kind
of talking about in someregards, but you can also expand
that out to lots of otherthings that are going on in a
teen's life.
So how do you help parents kindof deal with that peace and
(26:47):
stay calm, Because that calmnessis what's going to help get
them through it right.
If they're escalating, that'sonly going to fuel the fire and
then cause all sorts of issueson top of what they're already
dealing with.
Bryn Miller (27:01):
Yes, absolutely, and I think it's one of the
biggest things that you know.
When parents come to me and Isay what are your goals, you
know, one of the first thingsthat comes out of their mouth is
I want to be able to be morecalm in the face of this.
And, to your point, it is.
I love it, it is.
Is it a cat tail?
(27:21):
Yes, I love it.
She was dying to get up here.
Oh my gosh, we have to let her.
She wants to be in theconversation.
I get it.
That's amazing.
But being calm in the face ofthis, like you were saying, it
(27:42):
runs counter to all of ourwiring, as the parents and
eating disorders do have thesecond highest mortality rate of
any psychiatric illness otherthan opioid addiction, and so it
is life and death.
Also, the rates of suicide withpeople struggling with eating
disorders are incredibly high,not to mention what we've been
(28:05):
finding out about, you know,despair and suicidal ideation
with adolescents already,especially since COVID, and so,
yeah, I mean the stakes don'tget much higher for a parent.
But again, like you said, youcan sort of extrapolate that to
also talking about vaping anddrinking and you know all the
other things that parents ofadolescents are navigating,
(28:26):
driving a car, and so, yeah, itis counterintuitive to stay calm
in the face of your child'sstruggles, especially when
they're really intense.
And so much of this is becauseof that interpersonal
neurobiological wiring thathappens during the attachment
process, where we get veryliterally in our brain.
(28:49):
We are wired to our kids rightthat when you talk about a child
who's in distress, you thinkabout a baby that's in distress.
You know we think about fightor flight.
A baby can't fight and a babycan't flight, right, they're not
even mobile.
You know, they're these littleblobs, right, but what are they
wired to do, instinctually, iscry, and they cry out for a
(29:13):
caregiver, and this is how we'vekept our species going since
the beginning of time.
Right, because the caregiver,then, is wired to respond to the
child's cries.
Right, and this is how they gettaken care of, this is how they
manage distress, and so thatwiring is there for us and for
our kids, and so to stay calm inthe face of your child's
(29:36):
distress is actually verycounterintuitive, right, we're
not wired for that.
We're wired to get right on theroller coaster with them as
they're getting whipped aroundand we're getting whipped around
, right, and to try and fix itright.
Oh, we want to fix it Well, andthat's the whipped around, right
.
And to try and fix it right, oh, we want to fix it Well, and
that's the other thing.
Right, like that's our first,that's our knee jerk reaction,
(29:56):
right, like our kid getsdistressed.
We get distressed right alongwith them and our next impulse
is we want to fix it right.
And, of course, so natural whenthey're little, you know, oh,
you have a boo-boo, here's aBand-Aid.
You know like, oh, you're sad,I'm going to give you a hug,
right.
But what happens as they getolder?
It just gets so much morecomplicated than that.
(30:19):
And I can't tell you the numberof times that I had an
adolescent in my office and I'mlike, if you had a magic wand,
you know, and your parent couldjust understand something that
they don't get, what would youwant them to know?
And almost invariably, thefirst thing out of their mouth
is I don't want them to fix it,I just want them to listen, I
just want them to hear me, Ijust want them to be there,
(30:43):
right?
I had this brilliant adolescentthat I worked with and she said
you know what I told my mom theother day?
And I said oh God, tell me,what are we going to get?
And she said I told her youtrying to fix me is the problem.
And my brain just aboutexploded and I'm like, okay, I'm
going to write that down.
(31:03):
And again, it's so naturalbecause we see them in distress
and our knee-jerk response is wewant to fix it.
But what happens is that intrying to fix it, we miss the
opportunity to sit with them inwhatever they're struggling with
and to help them helpthemselves, fix it, which is
(31:25):
really where that resiliencegets built.
It's really where theirconfidence in handling their
emotions gets built.
When we come in and we fix itfor them, on some level, it
communicates.
I don't think you can do thison your own, that we're not
communicating a confidence tothem.
And we don't do thisintentionally, of course.
(31:45):
Our intentions are oh my gosh.
We want you to not feel sad, orI want you to not feel angry,
or I want you to not feel lonely.
It's so well-intended asparents, and yet what happens is
we totally miss our kids and wemiss the opportunity to again
Brene Brown.
She talks about how, when ourkids are struggling, it's like
(32:06):
they're sitting in a dark roomand our first instinct as
parents, is to walk in the roomand be like flip on the light
switch.
Why are you sitting in the dark?
Don't sit in the dark.
That's stupid, right, and theydon't want us to do that.
That's not what they need fromus.
And so can we walk into thatdark room and sit with them in
the dark room and say I can sitwith you in the darkness, it's
(32:30):
okay that it's dark and I'll bein this with you until you're
ready to get up and turn thelight on and be with them in
that moment of struggle so thatthey're not alone in it.
But then they know where thelight switch is, which they
never find out if we keepflipping it on for them, right?
But some of that is also like wecommunicate that the darkness
(32:51):
is bad.
By coming in and flipping onthe light switch, we're saying
to them oh, we don't do darkness, and the reality is that life
is full of darkness.
Life is full of trials andtribulations and pain and loss
and suffering, and so we wantour kids to be able to navigate
that.
We want them to feel confidentin being able to handle that,
(33:12):
and we can help them build thatby sitting in the want to go in
and flip on all the lightswitches because it breaks our
heart to see our kid in the dark, right, and that's where it
gets to.
This idea of the first step withparents is always you have to
(33:34):
figure out what's gettingactivated for you in the
presence of your child'sstruggle so that you can manage
that yourself.
You have to manage your owndistress before you can help
them manage their distress,because otherwise you're going
to run around flipping on allthe light switches and kind of
rob them of the opportunity todo that, but also inadvertently
(33:57):
communicate that darkness is badand darkness isn't bad.
Darkness is part of life, right, and so, yeah, and darkness
isn't bad, darkness is part oflife, right, and so, yeah, it's.
A big, big part of the work ishelping parents have greater
awareness around what's comingup for them in these moments
that are really challenging,coming to that with a ton of
kindness and compassion and notjudgment, because we tend to do
(34:18):
that too with ourselves.
And then how do we help you getregulated and calm so that you
can turn around and sit withthem in the dark and have the
patience for them to feel aroundfor the light switch, you know,
which sometimes takes longerthan we'd like by nature that
(34:49):
they feel like if I don't fixthis for my child, my child will
think I'm a bad parent.
Dr. Amy Moore (34:51):
Right that my child expects me to fix things
for them, so if I don't, thenthey're going to feel helpless
because there's no one fixingtheir problems.
I think that's a misconception,that yes, when your child is
five you probably need to fixthe problem, but when your child
is 15, your role changes alittle bit in this.
Bryn Miller (35:13):
Absolutely, absolutely, and I think it is
you're hitting this movingtarget right and that when you
know, if you think about fromthe time when they're born, you
have to fix everything for them.
They are so helpless, you know,for such a long period of time.
And so there is this transitionof at what point do I step back
and let them figure it out?
(35:34):
And then, what are the placeswhere, even when they're 15 or
20 or 25, that I do need tointervene in some way because
there's a health and safetyconcern, that there's a danger
there?
And I think that gets reallytricky too of where do I step in
(35:55):
because it's actually not safe,right?
And yeah, I think that's such aninteresting the juxtaposition
between the parent thinking, oh,my child will think I'm a bad
parent if I don't fix this forthem, versus the adolescent
sitting in my office and beinglike, oh, my child will think
I'm a bad parent if I don't fixthis for them, versus the
adolescent sitting in my officeand being like, oh, will you
tell my mom to stop trying tofix it all the time.
And so it's kind of aninteresting conversation of like
, if you think that, maybe askyour adolescent, like, if I
(36:19):
didn't, you know, help you writeyour essay at midnight on a
Tuesday, right?
And I think there's also thedistinction and this gets so
nuanced but the distinctionbetween scaffolding and fixing,
like fixing is like okay, I'llwrite your essay for you, which
we don't want to do, right, butscaffolding is okay.
I know it's hard for you tofocus because you also have ADHD
(36:41):
or because you know you've hadso much going on this week and
now we're doing this at the lastminute.
How do I help, support you tofigure this out and provide some
of that like safety net or kindof like the scaffolding right,
with the intention of I'm goingto gradually pull this off so
that you're able to do it.
It's kind of the differencebetween the training wheels and
(37:02):
like riding the bike for them,you know, but I think some it's
not always, you know crystalclear of where that that line is
, you know.
Dr. Amy Moore (37:11):
Right and we don't want to step on their
agency and independence either.
Like I, I found that what wasthe most effective with my kids
as they were teens was to askhow do you want me to show up
for you right now?
Yes, because sometimes they dojust want you to come in and
tell them how to fix it right,tell them how to solve the
problem or do it, but a lot oftimes, like you were saying, you
(37:35):
just want to sit in, that theyjust want you to sit in that
space with them, to recognizethat they're hurting, to hold
space for those big feelings sothat they know that they're not
alone.
Bryn Miller (37:45):
Yes, absolutely.
And I think when I, you know,when I work with parents, I
always say you know, 30,000 footview.
This work is about a marriageof the empathy and the
compassion and the listening andthe validation and the
practical support, and sometimesit's 90-10, sometimes it's
50-50, right, but that we don'twant to skip the part where
(38:07):
we're helping them, put words towhat they're feeling, before we
come in and problem solve.
You know, okay, how can I bestsupport you?
Right, and then we come in withsome of that like very
practical problem-solvingsometimes, and sometimes we
(38:28):
don't even need to do thepractical problem-solving.
You know, it's like, oh, you hada tough day with your friends
and you're feeling really lonelyand you're worried, where you
kind of fit in in all of thisand it makes you wonder if
you're ever going to find yourpeople.
And that's so tough.
I mean, that's just, that's sopainful and I can sit with you
(38:48):
in that.
And then there's not a ton ofproblem solving to do because
that's theirs to figure out.
We can't make friends for them.
You know, we can't solve theteenage drama that's happening,
right, even though, gosh, wewish we could, but just sitting
with them and helping them againput words and process is
(39:08):
helping them build those emotionregulation muscles that are
going to also kind of inoculatethem from reaching towards those
things that we those moredestructive or maladaptive
coping that we reach for when wefeel like we can't handle those
emotions.
Sandy Zamalis (39:25):
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(40:06):
brighter and more confidentfuture too.
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That's LearningRxcom, brynn.
We've kind of danced around ita little bit, but I think, to
help our listeners, you actuallyhave like a five-step framework
or a roadmap that parents canuse.
Let's walk through some ofthose steps.
Bryn Miller (40:27):
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.
So yeah, this really kind ofcame out of taking all the work
that I've done, you know, withfamilies and really informed by
my own experiences as a parent Ihave two kids myself and just
feeling like in those moments Ihad this experience with my own
kids of feeling like I've gotall the tools in the toolbox.
(40:49):
I am an advanced certifiedtherapist in EFFT, I'm a
licensed professional counselor.
I've been doing this for 11years.
I parent coach, right, and yetin these really hard moments
with my kids, it felt like thebottom fell out and it was like
I can't find my toolbox, I don'tknow where, who moved my
toolbox right and I'm sort oflike groping around in the dark.
(41:11):
And it gave me such empathy inthat moment for these parents
that I'm working with, whereit's even more complex and
complicated as it is withadolescents and young adults and
mental health issues, and I'mlike you know what I need in
this moment?
I need a, I need a, one, two,three, four, five.
Like I need a step-by-stepprocess, like it can't be
ambiguous, it can't be like Ican't be like which tool do I
(41:32):
pull out of the toolbox?
Like no, I need to know it's Ato B and B to C, and so that was
really the birthplace of what Icall the response roadmap,
which is my five-step curriculumfor parents, and it's really
designed to be both like a microand a macro where you use these
steps in the moment, but alsoit can more broadly help us,
(41:53):
kind of 30,000-foot view.
Okay, what are we doing, youknow, to address this big, more
challenging issue?
But effectively, the first stepis called recognize, um, and
this is where we always startand I I always say this is the
metaphor for this is you know,when you go to the mall and you
don't know, you know you're likeI have to go to Nordstrom, but
I don't know like where, how doI get there?
(42:14):
The first thing that we find onthe map is that big star that
says you are here, right,because if we know where
Nordstrom is, but we don't knowwhere we are in the mall, we're
not getting to Nordstrom.
And so we find that you arehere, and I really help parents
work on their own skills ofwhat's happening in your body in
the moment.
What's the narrative that'sgetting activated in your brain?
(42:37):
I'm a terrible mom, I'm doingit wrong, I suck at this.
So-and-so, is a much better momthan me.
You know what are the narrativesthat get activated in that
moment.
Can we put a name to what we'refeeling, Can we label it and
that's a lot of that coolresearch around emotional
granularity of you know.
Can we really kind of drilldown, can we increase our
emotional vocabulary and then weuse EFFT to really talk about
(43:01):
what we call caregiver blocks.
What are the big things thatget activated for you in the
moment?
What's the fear and thehelplessness and the
hopelessness and the shame andthe self-blame and the grief,
these big feelings that getactivated for us as parents when
our kids really struggle, andhow does that kind of take us
down a rabbit hole?
(43:22):
So, really starting torecognize and be aware of when
we get triggered, when we getoverwhelmed, what pushes our
buttons, where our brain goes,so we can catch ourselves, so
that we can step two, which isregulate, to reconnect with your
values and this is regulate,really pulls from a lot of DBT
skills of like how do we getcalm in the moment?
Because, as the parent orcaregiver, it's our job to stay
(43:46):
as regulated as we possibly canin the face of our child's
distress.
This is like getting off of theroller coaster and staying on
the bench you know, like, wherethey get off the roller coaster
and then we want to, from thatplace, like so get really calm.
How do we get as calm as we can, given the the circumstances,
so that we can also reconnect toour values?
(44:06):
Who do I want to be, as a parent, for my child when they're
struggling, I want to be a safespace.
I want to be an anchor in thestorm.
I want to be the lighthouse.
I want to be a coach.
You know these are things thatI've heard from parents over the
years, but you know, kind of,what's your North Star.
So even when you feel lost,take a deep breath.
(44:30):
Who do I want to be for my kid?
I want to be a kid.
I want to be a parent wherethey feel like they can always
tell me how they feel.
That's a huge one for me, andso am I showing up in a way
that's facilitating that?
And if not, can I get calm sothat I can right?
And then the next step, stepthree, is called respond
(44:50):
effectively.
And this really pulls in EFFT,emotion coaching, which is this
three-step process of validatetheir feelings, come to it with
emotional support and thenfollow up with practical support
.
And this kind of gets into thatconversation we were having of
how do we help them.
Know, you know it's dark.
It's okay that it's dark, wedon't have to be afraid of the
dark and I'm here with you andtell me if you need some help
finding the light switch right.
That's like you know how do weoperationalize that and we
(45:12):
actually have scripts that welike pull out and pen to paper
so parents feel more confidenthaving these really hard
conversations.
And then step four is refuel,which I used to talk about as
self-care.
And then all the parents youknow everyone's eyes kind You're
going to end up broken down onthe side of the road and it's
going to be a bigger pain in thebutt than if you had pulled
(45:48):
into the gas station when thelight went on and filled up
right.
And so really talking toparents about taking care of
yourself is non-negotiable.
Your loved ones are downstreamof you.
What you do to take care ofyourself has a direct and huge
impact on them.
And so really reframing that,that kind of paradigm shift,
(46:09):
especially for moms, I have tosay, is how do we refuel?
And then step five is reflectand repeat.
And this is just this idea oflike okay, we got through that
really tough moment.
Take a time out.
How did it go?
What went well?
What would you do differently?
What did you learn?
Because every moment is anopportunity to just learn how
(46:29):
we're going to move forward.
And then the repeat is we holdthe hope and we never give up,
because that's what we do asparents, and it's one of the
reasons I love doing the parentand caregiver work, because
there is no one as motivated,there is no one as motivated,
(46:58):
there is no one whose love canmove mountains.
If we leverage the way a parentloves their child, I mean the
superhuman things that parentscan achieve.
You know how do we hold thehope, even when it's really hard
, as it can be, especially witheating disorders, but really
just with.
You know the day-to-daystruggles and so really kind of
give parents a place of like.
Okay, here are the direct stepsof how do we operationalize all
these awesome tools we have inour toolbox and use them in a
(47:20):
way that will help you be moreeffective.
Dr. Amy Moore (47:24):
So, Bryn, I know you have to go because you have
a client and so A we would lovefor you to come back.
I think there's so much morethat we could talk to you about.
Would you be willing to haveanother conversation with us?
Bryn Miller (47:37):
Of course, Okay great, I don't know if you can
tell, but I love talking aboutthis stuff.
Dr. Amy Moore (47:42):
We can tell absolutely, and we don't invite
people back very often oh wellthank you, I'm honored, yeah, so
we would love to talk to yousome more, but these steps are
available on your website.
You actually have a freegraphic that people can download
to be a reminder, but you alsohave, like, an online course and
a coaching package so thatparents can really dive in with
(48:05):
you, right?
Bryn Miller (48:06):
Yes, yeah.
So I kind of take all thiscurriculum and sort of get it to
people in a handful ofdifferent ways, with the goal of
getting this into the hands ofas many parents as possible as
easily as possible.
Just because I believe in theseskills and tools so much, and
so I do I have an online course.
It's got about seven hours ofmaterial, kind of broken down
into these bite-sized moduleswith handouts and resources, and
(48:31):
with that I do a monthlycoaching call.
So even if you just do theonline option once a month, you
can kind of drop in and dooffice hours and pick my brain
and we can we can, you know,kind of go through like, okay,
where are you getting stuck orwhat questions do you have, and
so that's a really cool optionthat's accessible to a lot of
people.
And then every once a quarter Irun a small cohort, so five
(48:52):
sets of caregivers, and I'llmove them through the online
course over the course of eightweeks.
So you get that kind of addedsupport, accountability, and
then you get in the room withother parents that are doing
this, which I think is just soimportant, because a big piece
of this is feeling like you'rethe only one who's struggling
with this, when it couldn't befurther from the truth, and so I
(49:13):
do that once a quarter.
It's the next one's opening upat the end of March, and then I
also do the course alongsideone-on-one coaching.
So for people that are like, no, I really want to get in the
room with you.
I really want to deep dive andkind of tailor this.
We combine the online coursewith the coaching, and then
there's a ton of freebies on mywebsite.
So there's a video all aboutusing some of these skills and
(49:36):
what are some of thefoundational skills.
That comes along with acompanion workbook.
You can access some of thefirst few videos of the course.
There's a ton of stuff on there.
I do a newsletter that I sendout once a month that I try and
keep you know entertaining,hopefully.
Sandy Zamalis (49:53):
I was going to say I had looked over and they
were really fun.
There's a lot of fun littlememes in them.
Bryn Miller (49:58):
Yes, I'm like we need some gifts in there to like
break it up a little bit.
So, thank you.
The goal is that it's I'm like,okay, I want people to feel
excited to read this and thenput a bunch of resources in
there.
So I send that out every monthand then do a lot of speaking
engagements and trainings withproviders and groups that are
looking to use some of theseskills as well.
So, yes, lots and lots of waysto get in contact with me and
(50:22):
always looking for more ways tokind of help parents connect to
this material.
Dr. Amy Moore (50:27):
All right.
Well, Bryn Miller, thank you somuch for being with us today,
and we look forward to having asecond conversation with you
soon.
Bryn Miller (50:34):
Awesome.
Thank you, guys so much.
Dr. Amy Moore (50:36):
All right, moms.
Thanks so much for listeningtoday.
If you like us, please followus on Instagram and Facebook at
the Brainy Moms.
If you'd rather see our faces,you can find us on YouTube at
the Brainy Moms.
You can find Sandy on TikTok atthe Brain Trainer Lady.
And if you love us, we wouldlove it if you would leave us a
five-star rating and review onApple Podcasts so that we can
(50:58):
reach more moms just like you.
That is all the smart stuff wehave for you today.
We hope you feel a littlesmarter.
Catch you next time on theBrainy Moms.
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