Wondering why America's children are struggling to read fluently? Is your child struggling with reading? Reading and dyslexia specialist Donesa Walker joins Dr. Amy and Sandy on this episode of the Brainy Moms podcast to unpack the alarming decline in America's reading performance revealed in the latest Nation's Report Card.
With the wisdom gained from 30+ years working with dyslexic students, Donesa challenges our fundamental understanding of reading instruction. "Reading begins in the brain, not in the classroom," she explains, revealing why conventional approaches often fall short despite decades of educational reform efforts.
The conversation takes a fascinating turn as we explore the neurological foundations of reading. Cognitive skills like processing speed, working memory, and visual-auditory processing, and reasoning form the bedrock upon which reading is built, yet traditional interventions rarely address these crucial elements. This explains why many struggling readers show the "two steps forward, one step back" pattern despite receiving specialized instruction.
We also chat about Louisiana's remarkable reading turnaround story, where targeted interventions and a holistic approach moved the state from near-bottom to 16th nationally in reading performance. While celebrating this success, Donesa cautions that addressing America's reading crisis ultimately requires parents to recognize their crucial role. "Every parent is a homeschool parent," she asserts, explaining why schools alone cannot solve our literacy challenges.
Ready to transform your understanding of reading challenges and discover evidence-based solutions that actually work? Listen now to gain practical insights that could change how you support the readers in your life.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dr. Amy Moore (00:01):
Hi smart moms and dads.
We're so excited to welcome youto another episode of the Brady
Moms podcast, brought to youtoday by LearningRx Brain
Training Centers.
I'm Dr Amy Moore here withSandy Zimalis, and Sandy and I
are excited to bring youaconversation with reading and
dyslexia specialist DonesaWalker.
Donesa has been working withdyslexic students and their
(00:23):
families for more than 30 years.
She spent 21 years as a teacherand reading specialist at all
grade levels, from pre-K throughcollege.
As a district readingcoordinator and dyslexia
specialist, she assistedteachers in choosing curriculum
for teaching reading andunderstanding reading
disabilities, including dyslexia, along with personally working
(00:46):
with students in small groups tosucceed in reading.
Donesa has a bachelor's degreein elementary and early
childhood education and twomaster of education degrees, one
in educational administrationand one in reading.
As a board-certified cognitivespecialist, Donesa is also
passionate about brain trainingand the ability to change the
(01:07):
lives of those with dyslexia,adhd, traumatic brain injury and
related disorders.
She lives in Louisiana, whereshe owns and manages LearningRx
Shreveport.
Donesa is here with us today totalk about the latest reading
results from the Nation's ReportCard and to give us some
insights on what might behappening with reading
(01:29):
instruction and performance inAmerica.
So let's say hello to DonesaWalker.
Sandy Zamalis (01:36):
Donesa, we're so glad you're here With the new
Nation's Report Card results out.
We just wanted to dive intothat topic and share that just
more information with ourlisteners about what that means,
what we can do about it asparents.
Why don't you take a second?
And why don't you take a second?
And we'd love for our listenersto hear a little bit about you,
(01:57):
your story and how you came tospecialize in dyslexia.
Donesa Walker (02:01):
I was a teacher.
For let's even go back beforethat, let's back up a little bit
.
My siblings actually had somestruggles with dyslexia and I
had never heard of it.
I was in college to be ateacher and actually was not.
I may be telling my age y'all,but a little bit back, it wasn't
(02:25):
really well known.
There wasn't really.
When there was a learningdisability or a reading
difficulty, people just didn'tknow what to call it or what to
do about it.
So my parents had enrolled mysiblings into a private school
and so that's how I came to knowabout.
Dyslexia was basically throughsome.
(02:45):
My siblings were brilliant.
They absolutely had the gift ofdyslexia, which this is the
thing I think a lot of peoplemiss is that dyslexia is an
extraordinary gift and I thinkwe fail to embrace that often
because we see the dis in it andsee it as a brokenness.
And it's not a brokenness, it'sa gift.
(03:07):
You just have to know how touse the gift, and I think of
this lovely little box that Ihave and it's something I give
to my kids at Christmas anddifferent in it and it's locked
up in an unusual way and I putmoney in it and they have to sit
there and puzzle out how toopen it.
And once they figure out how toopen it, there's great money
(03:27):
inside, but it may take them awhile to figure it out right
Sort of like a puzzle that youhave to put all the pieces
together to see the wholepicture.
And that's the way I think ofdyslexia.
Dyslexia is not a brokenness,it's a gift that you just have
to learn how to use, and so thatbecame my passion.
I had actually intended to gointo medical school and become a
(03:49):
medical doctor and that waskind of my gambit, and I made
some transitions in my lifebecause I became very passionate
about finding out, reading andunderstanding reading, and so
that just really spoke mylanguage, and so I became a
reading teacher.
I mastered in that.
(04:11):
Further on, I learned otherlanguages because I wanted to
know how language encoded to thebrain.
So I speak multiple languages,grew up on the border, so that
was part of a natural linguistictendency.
Anyways, when you're the onlywhite kid in your kindergarten
class, then that's what you did,right, you're the only English
speaker and you defensivelylearn to speak.
(04:33):
So I did.
I learned to speak that, and soit made it very natural for me
to pick up other languages,which is incredible.
And again about the brain.
So if you think about it,language starts in the brain and
if you're exposed to multiplelanguages when you're young,
then picking up languages iseasier for you, right, and so
that's one of the interestingthings about it.
(04:53):
And, teacher as an instructor,these were things that I missed.
So when I went to school tobecome a teacher, we spent a
little bit of time learningabout reading, but not a
(05:14):
significant amount of time.
We spent a lot of time aboutlearning about classroom control
and discipline and how tomotivate your kids, and you know
how to use curriculum and didall these, how to do great
projects and centers.
Now I will say that during thetime that I went to college, the
big flash was whole languageOkay, and that was the big flash
(05:39):
, okay.
And so I went to a school whereI actually had Becky Hechteman,
who was a teacher, and she wasnot all about whole language.
She wasn't totally embracing it.
So she insisted that we alsolearn phonetics and the
presentations of phonemes andphonographs and digraphs and all
(05:59):
of this.
But one of the things that hasalways amazed me is that most
things I can say to a teacherand also he's struggling with
phonemes and I get this blankstare.
Look like I don't know what aphoneme is okay, and I remember
being a reading specialist andbeing in the public school
system as the district readingcoordinator, and it was our
(06:21):
gambit to make sure that readingwas taught across from K to 12.
I'm in charge of training theseteachers to integrate reading
across all things, and Iremember very specifically this
biology teacher raising her handas she goes.
I went to school for science.
I did not go to reading.
(06:43):
I don't know what you'retalking about.
It's reality.
It is.
We make assumptions thatteachers know how to teach
reading and they do not.
Okay, and that's not being anaffront to teachers, that's not
being a bad thing to teachers.
It's that not all teachers weretaught to teach reading.
That's just reality.
(07:04):
A math teacher was not taughtto teach reading, and so a lot
of us make assumptions thatteachers were trained in all
things, and that's like makingan assumption that a doctor who
does laparoscopic surgery on thecolon is able to do heart
surgery.
Dr. Amy Moore (07:22):
It's not going to happen.
Donesa Walker (07:24):
That's not where their specialty or their
strength is.
And so I think we have toembrace the fact that reading
for all teachers is not whatthey know.
Okay, and so they know if theyknow how to read, but they don't
know how to teach that reading.
And that's the beginning thing.
And when we look at thenation's report card and we see
(07:45):
what's happening, I think we'reseeing that there is in some
areas where we're learning toembrace the science of reading.
But the truth of the matter isthat is a slow ship to turn.
I was taught 35 years to turn.
35 years, that's my lifetime,right as far as a teacher.
Dr. Amy Moore (08:06):
Right.
Well, it's interesting.
So when you said obviously I'llage myself right along with you
, I think we're the exact sameage.
Yeah, and so when I wentthrough my teacher training
program in the early 90s, I toowas taught whole language.
And I can remember when I cameback to the classroom after
being an administrator in DODprograms, when I came back to
(08:29):
the classroom in the early 2000s, I was sent to a training in DI
, in direct instruction, forreading mastery, and I thought
this is horrible.
This is not whole language.
These kids are not going tolike this.
Oh my gosh, how can we I waslosing my mind over the fact
(08:51):
that can we just immerse them inprint rich environments and
read them lots of books?
And they're going to, throughosmosis, learn to read?
Why are we torturing the kidswith this cadence?
And I didn't know what I didn'tknow at the time, because that
isn't what I was taught.
I was not taught to teach thatway.
So why all of a sudden?
(09:12):
Right, but what I know now isthat pendulum had swung way too
far away from what we know abouthow the brain learns to read
and we were pulling it back in.
Right, but we were pulling itback in, kicking and screaming.
Donesa Walker (09:28):
And I think that's exactly it.
So I think that there needs tobe some grace for teachers in
understanding that this is allnew to many of them also, and
many of them have been in theclassroom for lots of years and
they have dedicated their lifeto teaching the best way that
(09:48):
they possibly know how, andeither they have not been taught
to teach reading or they don'tunderstand the foundational
principles of reading, and Ithink that's a really important
aspect that we need to look atand understand.
Reading is not a natural process.
Language for us to speak is amore natural process, but
(10:08):
becoming even more challengingif we look at the environment of
where we are right now and thefact that many children that we
have in our classrooms right nowwho are in the cusp of reading
years actually went through aperiod of time for COVID where
masking was happening, wherethey weren't getting a lot of
linguistics from other peopleand so they weren't having that
(10:30):
exposure to rich vocabulary, tothe enunciation of sounds,
because they were hidden behinda mask or they were set on a
computer.
Or maybe you're down south,like I am, and you say your
language differently and youdrop your sounds.
I do that a lot, and so I haveto remind myself close your
(10:54):
sounds.
Because you don't close yoursounds, you drop that last sound
.
Dr. Amy Moore (10:59):
Can you give an example or two of that?
Donesa Walker (11:01):
I think you just heard my whole language right.
I think you just what one ofthe things that we always tease
about is like the word bada.
It was like I'm about to go,I'm fixing to do it.
These are the.
This is a.
This is what we do.
We drop that last sound and weput it the other maybe pig Latin
(11:22):
version.
Dr. Amy Moore (11:24):
I say that all the time.
I'm gonna go do this, but I'mfrom the south, so that's it.
Donesa Walker (11:29):
I mean we do that .
It's the funny, he can pecanpuck on.
It's all about how the languagehappens and I get in a lot of
groups where we talk todifferent people and they're
like that is not how that wordis said and they're like, au
contraire, my friend, itactually is said that way.
It's the whole salmon andsalmon.
It's like the pronunciations.
(11:51):
I remember very specificallygetting in trouble with my
English teacher in my freshmanyear because I said it was a
peninsula anyways, arab, justdifferent pronunciations that I
would say wrong, caribbean,caribbean.
So the pronunciations of wordsare challenging enough in the
speech and then you startgetting into things like
(12:13):
homophones and homographs andall of the different meanings,
multiple meaning words, and soEnglish and the reading process
is complicated.
It's the most complicatedlanguage and many of us don't
even know what we don't know.
Sandy Zamalis (12:31):
I love that you brought up COVID because I think
everything that happened inCOVID has just been such, I
think, a whiplash effect forteachers and for schools,
Because first we had thepandemic and that caused a bunch
of things and we changed theway we were teaching our kids
for safety reasons and all thatkind of good stuff.
But there was also this bigswell that happened with the
(12:53):
science of reading andstructured literacy and the new
reading wars came back to lifebecause we were talking about
also this big swell thathappened with the science of
reading and structured literacyand that the new reading wars
came back to life because wewere talking about the different
ways to teach reading.
And then I know in my areathere was this huge swell to
train our teachers and we didletters training here in the
area, a more Orton Gillinghambased approach.
But because they didn't get thescores that to shift fast
(13:14):
enough and it's to think about.
But because they didn't get thescores to shift fast enough and
it's to think about that shipmoving scores didn't shift fast
enough.
So, lo and behold, they'veswitched again to a whole
different reading program andall of the teachers in my area
are so frustrated becausethey've had to learn so much in
the last six years, Just revampover and over and over again and
(13:39):
having a hard time figuring outhow to prioritize.
The curriculum they chose thisyear is a really scripted
curriculum that addresses, Ithink, one of the pieces that we
should probably talk aboutabout the NEP scores.
But they really wanted to helpbuild that knowledge base and
build vocabulary, and so theypicked a curriculum that was
(14:00):
going to give that backgroundknowledge and Dunny's I know
this is a topic for you becauseyou bring this up all the time
so let's talk about that.
About the NAP scores One of thebiggest hurdles is that our
kids don't have the backgroundknowledge they need for those
tests.
Donesa Walker (14:17):
Right.
So the fancy word in schoolsand maybe relating there is
called schema or schemata, butbasically it's filing cabinet.
Okay, so the filing cabinet ofthe brain and the way the
information is filed away in thebrain matters for the reading
process because it matters forthe orthographic to link up to
(14:37):
the sounds.
So basically, your orthographis the way that the word looks
and the picture and how thatlinks to that.
So if you picture the word catin the letter C-A-T, that is
sounds that go to those letters,but the actual print is the
orthograph and you have to linkthe phonemic awareness and the
(15:01):
sounds, the phonics, to each ofthose sounds, to link that, your
phonological awareness.
So being able to do that is akey underpinning and I think a
lot of our kiddos struggle withthat one, because print looked
differently on a screen versuswhat it looked like in person,
right?
And so you think about allthese babies that were on the
(15:22):
naab and so you look at thoseresults and it was fourth grade
test, right?
So think about this is like2025, but these scores are 2024.
So if you think about that,these babies were, these were
learning, they were learningortho print the link to what the
word looks like, to what theysound like, when they were in
(15:44):
covid.
And then that year everybodywent out, like around march.
I remember very specificallybecause I was having a very big
event here that I had workedmonths on, and the night before
the event they called and saideverybody's closed down as of
tomorrow, and I was like you arekidding me worked on this
forever.
(16:05):
So in March everything closedand so now these kiddos were
just sent home and many of themdid not have the resources.
They did not have computers,they did not have the resources
and the schools not havecomputers.
They did not have the resourcesand the schools tried their
best to get that, but it wasreally, really challenging.
So that year, the rest of thatyear was lost, essentially when
(16:25):
they went back in the fall.
Many, many times those childrenwere sent home because we still
didn't have our brains wrappedaround exactly how the spread
was and that sort of thing.
So many kids.
As soon as one kid got sick,the whole class went home.
So you have a very inconsistentyear.
So they were passed on.
If they were in kinder, theydidn't finish out their kinder
(16:45):
year right Then first grade, itwas hit and miss whether they
were there and whether theirteacher was there and whether
their instruction was stable,and many just did here in our
area, many just didn't even sendtheir kids back for fear, and
so it was just a veryinconsistent year for 2021.
Okay, and so 21, 22, so 2020 waswhen we went out March, and
(17:07):
then it was that next year, whenwe're in 2020, 2021 would have
been the first grade year and sovery inconsistent year, and
those are foundational years.
Those are the years that we saywe are learning to read, okay,
and then at third it should bechanging to reading to learn.
But if you never had yourfoundations of learning to read,
(17:27):
then you basically start tryingto create that.
So really great brains, smartbrains, try to create a pathway
around that and what's the mostnatural pathway?
We memorize it right and ofcourse, this is right.
Before SOAR became veryimportant or the science of
reading became very aggressiveand that body of research really
(17:49):
got out there to everyone, wewere still in this balanced
literacy approach where we'retrying to make sure that these
kids are reading and they'regetting set.
It is a very unusual time frame, that transition to them.
The second grade most of thechildren were still learning
sight words.
That was still the big push wasmemorized sight words and so
(18:11):
word families and fall intothose patterns.
I spice kais rice and learn toread in that pattern and while
there is some good to that, itdoes create a abnormality in the
way that the brain learns tolink orthographics to the
phonemic awareness and thephonological.
(18:32):
So I think that had a big factorto it.
Okay.
And so when we get into lookingat their test scores, and okay,
there is not only did we nothave growth, but we actually
went backwards.
And from the previous year it'sreally about that group.
If we really look at that groupof kiddos, so not only has the
(18:53):
ship not turned completely,because it can't yet, but that
group had a huge deficit.
So I think we have to take thescores where they are and say
what this does do for us is itcalls us to action.
Really, it's not about sayingwhat did or didn't happen.
It's not really about an excuse.
(19:14):
My dad always said an excuse isa skin over reason stuffed with
a lie.
So basically, it's just.
I know Amy will love that one.
Embrace that one forever.
Now, basically, what we do, Ialways pictured it like a potato
.
See, there's my ADD brain.
Okay, now she's thinking it.
She's oh my gosh.
Dr. Amy Moore (19:33):
No, I'm getting ready to push back a little bit.
I'm actually looking at theeighth grade results and so,
while I think there's a lot ofcredence to the explanation that
the fourth grade test scoresreflect that, the instructional
challenges, the instructionalchallenges how do we explain
(20:01):
that huge decrease, especiallyin that lower quartile of four
readers in eighth grade?
Their scores went down evenmore than the fourth grade
scores in that lower quartilewent down.
How do you?
Donesa Walker (20:10):
how do you?
Not only are they not havingthat literacy right that they
need, but they missed some keyschema, some key schemata
building.
That is going to affecteverything for them.
I honestly, I cannot tell youthat I project reading scores to
go up because if we look at thelast 40 years, what's happened?
(20:31):
We haven't had any gains orsuccesses.
What's happened?
We haven't had any gains orsuccesses and it's because we're
not really looking at thefoundational truths.
As a group the three of us weactually know foundational truth
wise, because reading starts inthe brain and if you follow
along with what the researchsays, we all know that reading
has to begin in the brain.
And if there's foundationalweaknesses for these kids, then
(20:55):
that is going to have hugerepercussions when they get to
those upper grades.
Let me give you a prime example,one of the things that was
staggering for a school district.
When I went to become thedistrict reading coordinator, we
started testing for kiddos andthere was a ton of kids who had
been missed, who were now eighthgraders and not reading
(21:18):
literately.
In other words, they werebasically word calling but they
had no knowledge of the words orno uplink of the meaning behind
that word.
So they would say the word.
They could pronounce the word,but they had no knowledge of
what that word meant.
So they would say the word,they could pronounce the word,
but they had no knowledge ofwhat that word meant.
Dr. Amy Moore (21:37):
So they were functionally illiterate as well.
They are functioning, yeah.
Donesa Walker (21:41):
Functionally illiterate.
But the problem is there isthat we stop and not we like.
After, okay, third grade, we'regoing to identify them as
dyslexic or they're not dyslexic.
If they're in eighth grade,there's no way they could just
now be dyslexic, au contraire.
That is where we see a lot ofstealth dyslexia, and stealth
(22:01):
dyslexia means that's been thereall along.
It was just missed because thechild used the gift and
creatively learned to workaround, and so that's why you
find a ton of children that arein those upper grades struggling
.
Or this is why you hear aboutkids who are graduating high
school and can't read.
They're functionally illiterate, okay, they've learned to word
(22:23):
call enough to get them throughthat portion, and then they just
they bottom out.
And so I do think that has a lotto do with the NAEP scores
throughout the 40 years plusthat we've looked at this.
This is that we are stagnatingin those areas because we're not
really looking at the rootcause.
And I'm very passionate aboutthe root cause, because the root
(22:45):
cause can be so many differentthings for so many different
readers, right.
So, some readers, it can bebecause they're struggling with
vocabulary and the uplink.
Some readers, it can be becausethey're struggling with
vocabulary and the uplink Somereaders they just don't even
know the codes to the Englishlanguage which is where we've
swung with the science ofreading is that we need to do
that.
But there has to be a balancebetween those things and I'm not
(23:07):
saying that I'm into balancedliteracy, please don't take that
wrong.
But there has to be somestructured, purposeful intent,
not only in the classroom, butan embracing of understanding by
parents, community, the powersthat be, that reading begins in
the brain and not in thatclassroom.
(23:29):
And if you don't prepare thechild in advance and if the
parents don't, guys, if we goback and we say okay, I see, you
two have glasses on, I don'thave my glasses on because I had
eye surgery, otherwise I wouldhave glasses on, okay.
So the reality is that we knowif we can't see, we know we go
(23:50):
have checkups, we get that done.
We know what to do about that.
We have trouble with our teeth?
We go to a dentist.
Okay.
When we have trouble with ourbrain or the learning process,
we go and complain to the school.
And that is because they'reseeing us, the authority on that
, and I'm not saying that.
I'm just saying that this needsto be understood from the
(24:12):
parental side and understoodfrom the school side, that
reading begins in the brain andthere's foundational skills that
must be done in order to be agood reader and most people
don't embrace that andunderstand that at a very early
age.
If you're an eighth grader whohas never experienced an
(24:32):
escalator and you see that word,then you don't know how to say
it and you don't know how tolink it up.
You have no knowledge of thatand so you skip the word.
Basically, that's what happensto you.
I cannot forget my son, avidreader, loved reading, and he
came to me one day and he saidmom, what is a cathedra?
(24:56):
And I said a cathedra.
Okay, I'm not really sure whata cathedra is.
I said, spell it for me.
And he spelled itc-a-t-h-e-d-r-a-l and I was like
, oh, cathedral.
Okay, he phonetically said theword correct, but he had no
(25:17):
knowledge because we didn't goto a cathedral, we went to a
church.
We never heard of a spire, itwas a steeple.
So it's just all about how weuse our language and his
schemata.
His schema had never embracedthat word, okay, and so he
didn't know, as he was reading,how to make sense of that and he
wasn't getting it Right, and soI think a lot of times we miss
(25:41):
out on those aspects and we missout on the fact that word
building, language building, isa constant process.
It is a process that is alwayshappening.
I have a lovely student who hasbeen working on the spelling bee
.
If y'all have never gotten thewords for the national spelling
(26:04):
bee, let me tell you Not onlyare they spelling demons to
spell, but the meanings behindsome of these words.
And I am an avid reader.
I read a book a night, everynight, as my bookcase shows.
I love it.
I eat books just for fun.
It's my enjoyment, myrelaxation.
(26:26):
I'm an avid author.
I have over 20 published books.
I just it's something I love.
I love language, but it isastounding to me how many of
those words I did not know,really did not know.
It was really enlightening.
I learned a lot.
Let's put it that way.
My point is here is that it'salways a learning process, not
(26:47):
just the spelling, but thepronunciation of words and where
they come from.
And English is such a robustembracement of so many different
languages, just kind of meltingpot into what we do, and so I
think that's part of the thingthat makes it so challenging for
(27:07):
that.
So schools and moving forward.
So I think, as we move forwardand we look at these results and
we say we can't pound down theschools, we have to take
authority and ownership of thisand say, yes, there is some
responsibility and some shipchanging that needs to happen.
There's some changing of theguard that needs to happen.
(27:30):
But as a culture and a society,we also have to embrace that
there's things that we need todo and we need to look at and
say we need to be doing a betterjob of building vocabulary.
We need to be doing a much,much better job of building the
linguistic framework.
That needs to happen for thelearning process.
We need to make sure that we'regiving those foundational
(27:53):
skills that are going to becritical.
Every child needs to be sorting.
Sorting is a primary skill toreading, but most people don't
realize how important that skillis and so it's skipped.
It's something like we don'tneed to spend time doing that
and yet we're missing a criticalskill that builds language.
(28:16):
One of the things that we do, aswith our littles when they come
in the four or five-year-oldsis and you guys know- this is
working on helping them with thelanguage of over and under and
between and these prepositionalphrases that establish place in
the brain, and that's a criticalskill of categorization that
(28:38):
matters to the reading process,the math process and the overall
learning process, and so thisis something that often is seen
as unimportant, and yet it isone of the key skills to kids
being successful with reading inthe future.
Dr. Amy Moore (28:57):
So what I'm hearing you say is there.
Even though the educationsystem has made strides to try
and work on those foundationalreading skills to help improve
reading performance in America,there is a disconnect between
decoding and comprehension.
(29:20):
Those are the two ends of thereading spectrum that we hope to
get through instructionally,but there's so much that needs
to happen in between, and so wecan't just teach decoding and
expect this fluent reading totranslate to comprehension,
because we have to think aboutbuilding all of the schema, all
(29:44):
of those filing cabinets ofinformation, all of that
knowledge that's critical to thecomprehension piece.
Right, and then it comes backaround too right?
We can't even pronounce a wordaccurately sometimes if we don't
have the prior knowledge toinform that pronunciation, like
(30:06):
your example of your son sayingcathedral instead of cathedral,
correct.
Donesa Walker (30:13):
And I think there's the Scarborough's Rope,
and the Scarborough's Rope isthe Holy Grail right now as far
as reading is concerned, right,and so if you look at that, if
you're not familiar withScarborough's rope, is the holy
grail right now as far asreading is concerned, right and
so if you look at that, ifyou're not familiar with
Scarborough's rope, you cangoogle it.
You can easily see that'sbecome and there's the.
It's called the reading rope.
If there's another way, there'sa writing rope, there's a math
rope.
Now they're, we're doing ropeswith strands.
(30:35):
If we picture this as a strand,basically you have all these
different pieces that have toplay and they bind together.
Ok, so you have the upperstrand and you have the lower
strand, and the upper strand isbasically building that
background, the backgroundknowledge.
That's our upper strand, that'sour vocabulary, that's our, all
(30:56):
of our things that are going tolead to good comprehension
skills or visualization, all ofthose great, good skills.
And then you have your lowerstrand, which is your decoding
strand, basically getting tothat process of phonological and
phonemic awareness, and sotrying to build both of those
has to happen simultaneously andyou have a whole plethora of
(31:17):
things where this can fall apartand if you miss one strand, you
miss something significant tothe reader.
Okay, and many readers who arecompensatory readers cover up
that loss, and the compensatoryreader is a reader who's missing
a significant strand, but theycompensate by using other tools,
(31:40):
other things to get themthrough that process.
In my practice, I am seeing aton of kiddos now that are
missing the imagination stationfor their brain, their visual
sketch pad, and the visualsketch pad is super, super
important for the readingprocess but you can't comprehend
(32:00):
without it, like it is theskill, and so I see a lot of
kiddos who are reading and thenyou ask them a simple question
and they're like they read thewords.
They're functionally illiteratebecause they can say every one
of those words beautifully, butthey created no meaning while
they were reading those words.
Okay, and that is why we'reseeing more of the developmental
(32:23):
language disorder.
The developmental languagedisorder is growing at leaps and
bounds right now in a crazy way, and I know that's not our
topic that we're discussingtoday, but it feeds into why our
scores continually have thistight ship that we just cannot
get up.
We cannot get that rope upbecause we're not putting all
(32:44):
the pieces in play that need tobe in play, and if you don't put
all those different pieces intoplay in an effective manner and
if you script too much, asSandy was mentioning, if you get
too much scripting, then youdon't teach deep, you teach
shallow, and then there's neverthat experience, and then
there's never that experience.
And that I think that's mydaughter-in-law is a teacher, a
third grade teacher, and herscores were like some of the
(33:07):
best in the state and they werethe highest in her parish and
she was like the other day wewere talking about.
She said I'm worried that sameexpectation is going to be
placed on me with the currentgroup of kiddos that I teach.
And she said the difference istheir background knowledge is
much weaker and so as they go tothird graders to test, they're
(33:30):
going to have a harder timebecause their background
knowledge is very weak and Idon't have the time to teach
deep.
I don't have the time for themto experience it like that.
As a reading teacher.
I remember this one eighthgrade I was teaching Anne Frank
and teaching the diary of AnneFrank.
Dr. Amy Moore (33:51):
And.
Donesa Walker (33:51):
I literally made my class experience it, really
experience it.
It was intense.
I got the whole school on board.
I had the kids draw to see whattype of person that they were.
I was.
I really made them experienceit.
It was something and to theeffect that the news came out
because some people got upset,which you could see.
(34:14):
Okay, the understanding of itwas that this is a deep
experience.
So over the years I've seen acouple of my students who are
now grown and I never haveforgotten that.
That ingrained me so deeplythat I've never forgotten that
Teachers don't have anopportunity right now to teach
(34:34):
that deep.
Our parents need to understandthat they're going to have to be
building that vocabulary verydeep.
What the nation's report cardis telling us is that we're not
addressing the foundation whereit needs to be.
We have got to go out and wehave got to get some of these
machines, basically, and we'vegot to dig deeper.
(34:54):
We've got to get down to thebedrock and if you don't get
down to the bedrock, you're justcreating potholes for the
future.
Okay, because you're leavingbig old chunks of information
out or rocks that are going tobe messed up and it's going to
cause issues down the path inthat process.
One of the things we have toembrace is that there's
(35:14):
advantages to technology and AIand there's disadvantages, and
we need to understand wherethose are and embrace those that
are there.
And we need to also understandwhere the potholes are with
technology and we need to bescaffolding for that.
We need to be building thepieces in place that can help us
make that difference.
(35:34):
Because if we're not going toget to this foundational issue,
if we're not going to make thechanges that are necessary, then
this is going to be aperpetuation of weakness across
the board.
And now, with politically and alot of the changes that are
happening across our country,with children being pulled and
(35:57):
put into private schools andthings like that I will like,
here in Louisiana, the LouisianaGator Scholarship was just
introduced, which I think isamazing.
It's a great process because itallows children here in our
state to be able to take ourparents, to be able to take
monies through a scholarship anduse for services for
(36:19):
intervention for their child.
So basically they're getting acard where they for services for
intervention for their child.
So basically they're getting acard where they can choose and
create their own child'seducational journey.
I think that's powerful.
I think we also have to helpparents understand that every
parent, like it or not, is ahomeschool parent.
Okay, here we go, you choose.
Sandy Zamalis (36:43):
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spelling performance?
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(37:05):
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adults who wanted to think andperform better.
They'd like to help you getyour child on the path to a
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Give LearningRx a call at866-BRAIN-01 or visit
LearningRxcom.
Dr. Amy Moore (37:45):
That's LearningRxcom.
That's learningrxcom.
I think that's a great segue,because I was sitting here
thinking I'm not sure, as youwere talking about your
daughter-in-law's struggle ofnot being able to teach deep,
that is not because she doesn'thave the capability.
That is the nature of theeducation system, right.
It just does not allow us, itdoes not allow teachers the
(38:06):
luxury to go deep.
And so, then, is the schoolsystem even capable of fixing
this problem, or will this fallon a supplemental educational
intervention and the parents?
Is that the only way to fixthis problem?
Donesa Walker (38:28):
I think it is.
I think we have to embrace thereality as parents that we are
ultimately responsible for ourchild's educational prowess.
For our child's educationalprowess, educational prowess
varies from family to family.
Educational attainment what youput your value system on varies
from family to family.
(38:49):
Right, my husband was a gamewarden and he grew up in game
and fish and that type of things.
One of the things that wasreally important to him was that
our boys knew everything therewas to know about every animal
out under the sun.
Okay, I can tell you how manylaughing experiences that we've
had about flying squirrelsbecause I know nothing.
(39:11):
I've been married to this manfor 28 years and I can tell you
I hear a sound.
I'll say what is that?
He?
He'll say it's a such and suchduck and I'm like, okay, he
knows the sounds of animals andI have no ability to do that.
Okay, what I'm saying is thatit's impossible for one person
(39:32):
teacher, school, whatever tobuild that schema for every
single child.
You cannot ever do that.
I remember being an eighth gradeteacher and I had this sweet
little girl and she came intothe classroom one day and she
said Ms Walker, I have no ideawhy in the world.
People are going to go standaround that board outside at six
(39:55):
o'clock tonight and I said,marie, what are you talking
about?
And she said it says schoolboard meeting at 6 pm tonight.
Bada bing, yep, that's whereshe understood nothing about
what a school board was.
But there was a board outsidethat said school board meeting
(40:16):
tonight at six.
Lack of knowledge, lack ofschema.
She knew what the word boardmeant, but she didn't know what
the board meant in that context,and I think this goes back over
and over of the responsibilityof us as a society to build
those critical skills for kids,but also for parents to embrace
(40:37):
that every parent has theresponsibility of educational
attainment for their child to beat the level that they want to
be.
And that's what you have todrive that bus.
You have to think of the schooland the different components,
the extracurricular, thesupplementary education services
(40:58):
, the tutorials, all thedifferent organizations like
LearningRx that you partner withas your responsibility.
You do not think that it is theschool's responsibility to make
your child's teeth straight.
You do not think it is yourchild's responsibility to go to
school and be able to make goodchoices about everything if you
(41:23):
don't teach them to make thosegood choices, but yet you'll
blame that on the teacher and onthe school.
You have to take that ownership, and I think that's the shift
that we have to take as ourbrain and our responsibility and
(41:44):
our responsibility.
Dr. Amy Moore (41:44):
Wow, all right.
Unfortunately we are out oftime, but we are going to do a
second episode so that we candig into what that looks like
for parents.
What do parents need to knowabout the role that they can
play in helping their childrenbe strong readers, strong
comprehenders, completelyliterate, right, how?
(42:05):
This can't just fall on theteachers, because, as we've seen
in the trends of the NationalReport Card over and over again,
this just isn't something thatschools can do alone, nor should
they.
Right From what I'm alsohearing you say, you're going to
have to tune in to our nextepisode to find out part two on
what we can do about all of this.
(42:26):
So, listeners, thank you so muchfor being with us today.
If you liked our show, we wouldlove it if you would leave us a
five-star rating and review onApple podcasts so that we get
ranked higher, and gettingranked higher means we can reach
more parents like you guys.
We'd love it if you wouldfollow us on social media.
We are at the Brainy Moms onInstagram and Facebook.
(42:47):
If you'd rather see our faces,you can find us on YouTube at
the Brainy Moms, and that is allthe smart stuff that we have
for you today.
We hope you feel a littlesmarter.
We're going to catch you nexttime.
Hi smart moms and dads.
We're so excited to welcome youto another episode of the Brady
Moms podcast, brought to youtoday by LearningRx Brain
Training Centers.
I'm Dr Amy Moore here withSandy Zimalis, and Sandy and I
are excited to bring youaconversation with reading and
dyslexia specialist DonesaWalker.
Donesa has been working withdyslexic students and their
(00:23):
families for more than 30 years.
She spent 21 years as a teacherand reading specialist at all
grade levels, from pre-K throughcollege.
As a district readingcoordinator and dyslexia
specialist, she assistedteachers in choosing curriculum
for teaching reading andunderstanding reading
disabilities, including dyslexia, along with personally working
(00:46):
with students in small groups tosucceed in reading.
Donesa has a bachelor's degreein elementary and early
childhood education and twomaster of education degrees, one
in educational administrationand one in reading.
As a board-certified cognitivespecialist, Donesa is also
passionate about brain trainingand the ability to change the
(01:07):
lives of those with dyslexia,adhd, traumatic brain injury and
related disorders.
She lives in Louisiana, whereshe owns and manages LearningRx
Shreveport.
Donesa is here with us today totalk about the latest reading
results from the Nation's ReportCard and to give us some
insights on what might behappening with reading
(01:29):
instruction and performance inAmerica.
So let's say hello to DonesaWalker.
Sandy Zamalis (01:36):
Donesa, we're so glad you're here With the new
Nation's Report Card results out.
We just wanted to dive intothat topic and share that just
more information with ourlisteners about what that means,
what we can do about it asparents.
Why don't you take a second?
And why don't you take a second?
And we'd love for our listenersto hear a little bit about you,
(01:57):
your story and how you came tospecialize in dyslexia.
Donesa Walker (02:01):
I was a teacher.
For let's even go back beforethat, let's back up a little bit
.
My siblings actually had somestruggles with dyslexia and I
had never heard of it.
I was in college to be ateacher and actually was not.
I may be telling my age y'all,but a little bit back, it wasn't
(02:25):
really well known.
There wasn't really.
When there was a learningdisability or a reading
difficulty, people just didn'tknow what to call it or what to
do about it.
So my parents had enrolled mysiblings into a private school
and so that's how I came to knowabout.
Dyslexia was basically throughsome.
(02:45):
My siblings were brilliant.
They absolutely had the gift ofdyslexia, which this is the
thing I think a lot of peoplemiss is that dyslexia is an
extraordinary gift and I thinkwe fail to embrace that often
because we see the dis in it andsee it as a brokenness.
And it's not a brokenness, it'sa gift.
(03:07):
You just have to know how touse the gift, and I think of
this lovely little box that Ihave and it's something I give
to my kids at Christmas anddifferent in it and it's locked
up in an unusual way and I putmoney in it and they have to sit
there and puzzle out how toopen it.
And once they figure out how toopen it, there's great money
(03:27):
inside, but it may take them awhile to figure it out right
Sort of like a puzzle that youhave to put all the pieces
together to see the wholepicture.
And that's the way I think ofdyslexia.
Dyslexia is not a brokenness,it's a gift that you just have
to learn how to use, and so thatbecame my passion.
I had actually intended to gointo medical school and become a
(03:49):
medical doctor and that waskind of my gambit, and I made
some transitions in my lifebecause I became very passionate
about finding out, reading andunderstanding reading, and so
that just really spoke mylanguage, and so I became a
reading teacher.
I mastered in that.
(04:11):
Further on, I learned otherlanguages because I wanted to
know how language encoded to thebrain.
So I speak multiple languages,grew up on the border, so that
was part of a natural linguistictendency.
Anyways, when you're the onlywhite kid in your kindergarten
class, then that's what you did,right, you're the only English
speaker and you defensivelylearn to speak.
(04:33):
So I did.
I learned to speak that, and soit made it very natural for me
to pick up other languages,which is incredible.
And again about the brain.
So if you think about it,language starts in the brain and
if you're exposed to multiplelanguages when you're young,
then picking up languages iseasier for you, right, and so
that's one of the interestingthings about it.
(04:53):
And, teacher as an instructor,these were things that I missed.
So when I went to school tobecome a teacher, we spent a
little bit of time learningabout reading, but not a
(05:14):
significant amount of time.
We spent a lot of time aboutlearning about classroom control
and discipline and how tomotivate your kids, and you know
how to use curriculum and didall these, how to do great
projects and centers.
Now I will say that during thetime that I went to college, the
big flash was whole languageOkay, and that was the big flash
(05:39):
, okay.
And so I went to a school whereI actually had Becky Hechteman,
who was a teacher, and she wasnot all about whole language.
She wasn't totally embracing it.
So she insisted that we alsolearn phonetics and the
presentations of phonemes andphonographs and digraphs and all
(05:59):
of this.
But one of the things that hasalways amazed me is that most
things I can say to a teacherand also he's struggling with
phonemes and I get this blankstare.
Look like I don't know what aphoneme is okay, and I remember
being a reading specialist andbeing in the public school
system as the district readingcoordinator, and it was our
(06:21):
gambit to make sure that readingwas taught across from K to 12.
I'm in charge of training theseteachers to integrate reading
across all things, and Iremember very specifically this
biology teacher raising her handas she goes.
I went to school for science.
I did not go to reading.
(06:43):
I don't know what you'retalking about.
It's reality.
It is.
We make assumptions thatteachers know how to teach
reading and they do not.
Okay, and that's not being anaffront to teachers, that's not
being a bad thing to teachers.
It's that not all teachers weretaught to teach reading.
That's just reality.
(07:04):
A math teacher was not taughtto teach reading, and so a lot
of us make assumptions thatteachers were trained in all
things, and that's like makingan assumption that a doctor who
does laparoscopic surgery on thecolon is able to do heart
surgery.
Dr. Amy Moore (07:22):
It's not going to happen.
Donesa Walker (07:24):
That's not where their specialty or their
strength is.
And so I think we have toembrace the fact that reading
for all teachers is not whatthey know.
Okay, and so they know if theyknow how to read, but they don't
know how to teach that reading.
And that's the beginning thing.
And when we look at thenation's report card and we see
(07:45):
what's happening, I think we'reseeing that there is in some
areas where we're learning toembrace the science of reading.
But the truth of the matter isthat is a slow ship to turn.
I was taught 35 years to turn.
35 years, that's my lifetime,right as far as a teacher.
Dr. Amy Moore (08:06):
Right.
Well, it's interesting.
So when you said obviously I'llage myself right along with you
, I think we're the exact sameage.
Yeah, and so when I wentthrough my teacher training
program in the early 90s, I toowas taught whole language.
And I can remember when I cameback to the classroom after
being an administrator in DODprograms, when I came back to
(08:29):
the classroom in the early 2000s, I was sent to a training in DI
, in direct instruction, forreading mastery, and I thought
this is horrible.
This is not whole language.
These kids are not going tolike this.
Oh my gosh, how can we I waslosing my mind over the fact
(08:51):
that can we just immerse them inprint rich environments and
read them lots of books?
And they're going to, throughosmosis, learn to read?
Why are we torturing the kidswith this cadence?
And I didn't know what I didn'tknow at the time, because that
isn't what I was taught.
I was not taught to teach thatway.
So why all of a sudden?
(09:12):
Right, but what I know now isthat pendulum had swung way too
far away from what we know abouthow the brain learns to read
and we were pulling it back in.
Right, but we were pulling itback in, kicking and screaming.
Donesa Walker (09:28):
And I think that's exactly it.
So I think that there needs tobe some grace for teachers in
understanding that this is allnew to many of them also, and
many of them have been in theclassroom for lots of years and
they have dedicated their lifeto teaching the best way that
(09:48):
they possibly know how, andeither they have not been taught
to teach reading or they don'tunderstand the foundational
principles of reading, and Ithink that's a really important
aspect that we need to look atand understand.
Reading is not a natural process.
Language for us to speak is amore natural process, but
(10:08):
becoming even more challengingif we look at the environment of
where we are right now and thefact that many children that we
have in our classrooms right nowwho are in the cusp of reading
years actually went through aperiod of time for COVID where
masking was happening, wherethey weren't getting a lot of
linguistics from other peopleand so they weren't having that
(10:30):
exposure to rich vocabulary, tothe enunciation of sounds,
because they were hidden behinda mask or they were set on a
computer.
Or maybe you're down south,like I am, and you say your
language differently and youdrop your sounds.
I do that a lot, and so I haveto remind myself close your
(10:54):
sounds.
Because you don't close yoursounds, you drop that last sound
.
Dr. Amy Moore (10:59):
Can you give an example or two of that?
Donesa Walker (11:01):
I think you just heard my whole language right.
I think you just what one ofthe things that we always tease
about is like the word bada.
It was like I'm about to go,I'm fixing to do it.
These are the.
This is a.
This is what we do.
We drop that last sound and weput it the other maybe pig Latin
(11:22):
version.
Dr. Amy Moore (11:24):
I say that all the time.
I'm gonna go do this, but I'mfrom the south, so that's it.
Donesa Walker (11:29):
I mean we do that .
It's the funny, he can pecanpuck on.
It's all about how the languagehappens and I get in a lot of
groups where we talk todifferent people and they're
like that is not how that wordis said and they're like, au
contraire, my friend, itactually is said that way.
It's the whole salmon andsalmon.
It's like the pronunciations.
(11:51):
I remember very specificallygetting in trouble with my
English teacher in my freshmanyear because I said it was a
peninsula anyways, arab, justdifferent pronunciations that I
would say wrong, caribbean,caribbean.
So the pronunciations of wordsare challenging enough in the
speech and then you startgetting into things like
(12:13):
homophones and homographs andall of the different meanings,
multiple meaning words, and soEnglish and the reading process
is complicated.
It's the most complicatedlanguage and many of us don't
even know what we don't know.
Sandy Zamalis (12:31):
I love that you brought up COVID because I think
everything that happened inCOVID has just been such, I
think, a whiplash effect forteachers and for schools,
Because first we had thepandemic and that caused a bunch
of things and we changed theway we were teaching our kids
for safety reasons and all thatkind of good stuff.
But there was also this bigswell that happened with the
(12:53):
science of reading andstructured literacy and the new
reading wars came back to lifebecause we were talking about
also this big swell thathappened with the science of
reading and structured literacyand that the new reading wars
came back to life because wewere talking about the different
ways to teach reading.
And then I know in my areathere was this huge swell to
train our teachers and we didletters training here in the
area, a more Orton Gillinghambased approach.
But because they didn't get thescores that to shift fast
(13:14):
enough and it's to think about.
But because they didn't get thescores to shift fast enough and
it's to think about that shipmoving scores didn't shift fast
enough.
So, lo and behold, they'veswitched again to a whole
different reading program andall of the teachers in my area
are so frustrated becausethey've had to learn so much in
the last six years, Just revampover and over and over again and
(13:39):
having a hard time figuring outhow to prioritize.
The curriculum they chose thisyear is a really scripted
curriculum that addresses, Ithink, one of the pieces that we
should probably talk aboutabout the NEP scores.
But they really wanted to helpbuild that knowledge base and
build vocabulary, and so theypicked a curriculum that was
(14:00):
going to give that backgroundknowledge and Dunny's I know
this is a topic for you becauseyou bring this up all the time
so let's talk about that.
About the NAP scores One of thebiggest hurdles is that our
kids don't have the backgroundknowledge they need for those
tests.
Donesa Walker (14:17):
Right.
So the fancy word in schoolsand maybe relating there is
called schema or schemata, butbasically it's filing cabinet.
Okay, so the filing cabinet ofthe brain and the way the
information is filed away in thebrain matters for the reading
process because it matters forthe orthographic to link up to
(14:37):
the sounds.
So basically, your orthographis the way that the word looks
and the picture and how thatlinks to that.
So if you picture the word catin the letter C-A-T, that is
sounds that go to those letters,but the actual print is the
orthograph and you have to linkthe phonemic awareness and the
(15:01):
sounds, the phonics, to each ofthose sounds, to link that, your
phonological awareness.
So being able to do that is akey underpinning and I think a
lot of our kiddos struggle withthat one, because print looked
differently on a screen versuswhat it looked like in person,
right?
And so you think about allthese babies that were on the
(15:22):
naab and so you look at thoseresults and it was fourth grade
test, right?
So think about this is like2025, but these scores are 2024.
So if you think about that,these babies were, these were
learning, they were learningortho print the link to what the
word looks like, to what theysound like, when they were in
(15:44):
covid.
And then that year everybodywent out, like around march.
I remember very specificallybecause I was having a very big
event here that I had workedmonths on, and the night before
the event they called and saideverybody's closed down as of
tomorrow, and I was like you arekidding me worked on this
forever.
(16:05):
So in March everything closedand so now these kiddos were
just sent home and many of themdid not have the resources.
They did not have computers,they did not have the resources
and the schools not havecomputers.
They did not have the resourcesand the schools tried their
best to get that, but it wasreally, really challenging.
So that year, the rest of thatyear was lost, essentially when
(16:25):
they went back in the fall.
Many, many times those childrenwere sent home because we still
didn't have our brains wrappedaround exactly how the spread
was and that sort of thing.
So many kids.
As soon as one kid got sick,the whole class went home.
So you have a very inconsistentyear.
So they were passed on.
If they were in kinder, theydidn't finish out their kinder
(16:45):
year right Then first grade, itwas hit and miss whether they
were there and whether theirteacher was there and whether
their instruction was stable,and many just did here in our
area, many just didn't even sendtheir kids back for fear, and
so it was just a veryinconsistent year for 2021.
Okay, and so 21, 22, so 2020 waswhen we went out March, and
(17:07):
then it was that next year, whenwe're in 2020, 2021 would have
been the first grade year and sovery inconsistent year, and
those are foundational years.
Those are the years that we saywe are learning to read, okay,
and then at third it should bechanging to reading to learn.
But if you never had yourfoundations of learning to read,
(17:27):
then you basically start tryingto create that.
So really great brains, smartbrains, try to create a pathway
around that and what's the mostnatural pathway?
We memorize it right and ofcourse, this is right.
Before SOAR became veryimportant or the science of
reading became very aggressiveand that body of research really
(17:49):
got out there to everyone, wewere still in this balanced
literacy approach where we'retrying to make sure that these
kids are reading and they'regetting set.
It is a very unusual time frame, that transition to them.
The second grade most of thechildren were still learning
sight words.
That was still the big push wasmemorized sight words and so
(18:11):
word families and fall intothose patterns.
I spice kais rice and learn toread in that pattern and while
there is some good to that, itdoes create a abnormality in the
way that the brain learns tolink orthographics to the
phonemic awareness and thephonological.
(18:32):
So I think that had a big factorto it.
Okay.
And so when we get into lookingat their test scores, and okay,
there is not only did we nothave growth, but we actually
went backwards.
And from the previous year it'sreally about that group.
If we really look at that groupof kiddos, so not only has the
(18:53):
ship not turned completely,because it can't yet, but that
group had a huge deficit.
So I think we have to take thescores where they are and say
what this does do for us is itcalls us to action.
Really, it's not about sayingwhat did or didn't happen.
It's not really about an excuse.
(19:14):
My dad always said an excuse isa skin over reason stuffed with
a lie.
So basically, it's just.
I know Amy will love that one.
Embrace that one forever.
Now, basically, what we do, Ialways pictured it like a potato
.
See, there's my ADD brain.
Okay, now she's thinking it.
She's oh my gosh.
Dr. Amy Moore (19:33):
No, I'm getting ready to push back a little bit.
I'm actually looking at theeighth grade results and so,
while I think there's a lot ofcredence to the explanation that
the fourth grade test scoresreflect that, the instructional
challenges, the instructionalchallenges how do we explain
(20:01):
that huge decrease, especiallyin that lower quartile of four
readers in eighth grade?
Their scores went down evenmore than the fourth grade
scores in that lower quartilewent down.
How do you?
Donesa Walker (20:10):
how do you?
Not only are they not havingthat literacy right that they
need, but they missed some keyschema, some key schemata
building.
That is going to affecteverything for them.
I honestly, I cannot tell youthat I project reading scores to
go up because if we look at thelast 40 years, what's happened?
(20:31):
We haven't had any gains orsuccesses.
What's happened?
We haven't had any gains orsuccesses and it's because we're
not really looking at thefoundational truths.
As a group the three of us weactually know foundational truth
wise, because reading starts inthe brain and if you follow
along with what the researchsays, we all know that reading
has to begin in the brain.
And if there's foundationalweaknesses for these kids, then
(20:55):
that is going to have hugerepercussions when they get to
those upper grades.
Let me give you a prime example,one of the things that was
staggering for a school district.
When I went to become thedistrict reading coordinator, we
started testing for kiddos andthere was a ton of kids who had
been missed, who were now eighthgraders and not reading
(21:18):
literately.
In other words, they werebasically word calling but they
had no knowledge of the words orno uplink of the meaning behind
that word.
So they would say the word.
They could pronounce the word,but they had no knowledge of
what that word meant.
So they would say the word,they could pronounce the word,
but they had no knowledge ofwhat that word meant.
Dr. Amy Moore (21:37):
So they were functionally illiterate as well.
They are functioning, yeah.
Donesa Walker (21:41):
Functionally illiterate.
But the problem is there isthat we stop and not we like.
After, okay, third grade, we'regoing to identify them as
dyslexic or they're not dyslexic.
If they're in eighth grade,there's no way they could just
now be dyslexic, au contraire.
That is where we see a lot ofstealth dyslexia, and stealth
(22:01):
dyslexia means that's been thereall along.
It was just missed because thechild used the gift and
creatively learned to workaround, and so that's why you
find a ton of children that arein those upper grades struggling
.
Or this is why you hear aboutkids who are graduating high
school and can't read.
They're functionally illiterate, okay, they've learned to word
(22:23):
call enough to get them throughthat portion, and then they just
they bottom out.
And so I do think that has a lotto do with the NAEP scores
throughout the 40 years plusthat we've looked at this.
This is that we are stagnatingin those areas because we're not
really looking at the rootcause.
And I'm very passionate aboutthe root cause, because the root
(22:45):
cause can be so many differentthings for so many different
readers, right.
So, some readers, it can bebecause they're struggling with
vocabulary and the uplink.
Some readers, it can be becausethey're struggling with
vocabulary and the uplink Somereaders they just don't even
know the codes to the Englishlanguage which is where we've
swung with the science ofreading is that we need to do
that.
But there has to be a balancebetween those things and I'm not
(23:07):
saying that I'm into balancedliteracy, please don't take that
wrong.
But there has to be somestructured, purposeful intent,
not only in the classroom, butan embracing of understanding by
parents, community, the powersthat be, that reading begins in
the brain and not in thatclassroom.
(23:29):
And if you don't prepare thechild in advance and if the
parents don't, guys, if we goback and we say okay, I see, you
two have glasses on, I don'thave my glasses on because I had
eye surgery, otherwise I wouldhave glasses on, okay.
So the reality is that we knowif we can't see, we know we go
(23:50):
have checkups, we get that done.
We know what to do about that.
We have trouble with our teeth?
We go to a dentist.
Okay.
When we have trouble with ourbrain or the learning process,
we go and complain to the school.
And that is because they'reseeing us, the authority on that
, and I'm not saying that.
I'm just saying that this needsto be understood from the
(24:12):
parental side and understoodfrom the school side, that
reading begins in the brain andthere's foundational skills that
must be done in order to be agood reader and most people
don't embrace that andunderstand that at a very early
age.
If you're an eighth grader whohas never experienced an
(24:32):
escalator and you see that word,then you don't know how to say
it and you don't know how tolink it up.
You have no knowledge of thatand so you skip the word.
Basically, that's what happensto you.
I cannot forget my son, avidreader, loved reading, and he
came to me one day and he saidmom, what is a cathedra?
(24:56):
And I said a cathedra.
Okay, I'm not really sure whata cathedra is.
I said, spell it for me.
And he spelled itc-a-t-h-e-d-r-a-l and I was like
, oh, cathedral.
Okay, he phonetically said theword correct, but he had no
(25:17):
knowledge because we didn't goto a cathedral, we went to a
church.
We never heard of a spire, itwas a steeple.
So it's just all about how weuse our language and his
schemata.
His schema had never embracedthat word, okay, and so he
didn't know, as he was reading,how to make sense of that and he
wasn't getting it Right, and soI think a lot of times we miss
(25:41):
out on those aspects and we missout on the fact that word
building, language building, isa constant process.
It is a process that is alwayshappening.
I have a lovely student who hasbeen working on the spelling bee
.
If y'all have never gotten thewords for the national spelling
(26:04):
bee, let me tell you Not onlyare they spelling demons to
spell, but the meanings behindsome of these words.
And I am an avid reader.
I read a book a night, everynight, as my bookcase shows.
I love it.
I eat books just for fun.
It's my enjoyment, myrelaxation.
(26:26):
I'm an avid author.
I have over 20 published books.
I just it's something I love.
I love language, but it isastounding to me how many of
those words I did not know,really did not know.
It was really enlightening.
I learned a lot.
Let's put it that way.
My point is here is that it'salways a learning process, not
(26:47):
just the spelling, but thepronunciation of words and where
they come from.
And English is such a robustembracement of so many different
languages, just kind of meltingpot into what we do, and so I
think that's part of the thingthat makes it so challenging for
(27:07):
that.
So schools and moving forward.
So I think, as we move forwardand we look at these results and
we say we can't pound down theschools, we have to take
authority and ownership of thisand say, yes, there is some
responsibility and some shipchanging that needs to happen.
There's some changing of theguard that needs to happen.
(27:30):
But as a culture and a society,we also have to embrace that
there's things that we need todo and we need to look at and
say we need to be doing a betterjob of building vocabulary.
We need to be doing a much,much better job of building the
linguistic framework.
That needs to happen for thelearning process.
We need to make sure that we'regiving those foundational
(27:53):
skills that are going to becritical.
Every child needs to be sorting.
Sorting is a primary skill toreading, but most people don't
realize how important that skillis and so it's skipped.
It's something like we don'tneed to spend time doing that
and yet we're missing a criticalskill that builds language.
(28:16):
One of the things that we do, aswith our littles when they come
in the four or five-year-oldsis and you guys know- this is
working on helping them with thelanguage of over and under and
between and these prepositionalphrases that establish place in
the brain, and that's a criticalskill of categorization that
(28:38):
matters to the reading process,the math process and the overall
learning process, and so thisis something that often is seen
as unimportant, and yet it isone of the key skills to kids
being successful with reading inthe future.
Dr. Amy Moore (28:57):
So what I'm hearing you say is there.
Even though the educationsystem has made strides to try
and work on those foundationalreading skills to help improve
reading performance in America,there is a disconnect between
decoding and comprehension.
(29:20):
Those are the two ends of thereading spectrum that we hope to
get through instructionally,but there's so much that needs
to happen in between, and so wecan't just teach decoding and
expect this fluent reading totranslate to comprehension,
because we have to think aboutbuilding all of the schema, all
(29:44):
of those filing cabinets ofinformation, all of that
knowledge that's critical to thecomprehension piece.
Right, and then it comes backaround too right?
We can't even pronounce a wordaccurately sometimes if we don't
have the prior knowledge toinform that pronunciation, like
(30:06):
your example of your son sayingcathedral instead of cathedral,
correct.
Donesa Walker (30:13):
And I think there's the Scarborough's Rope,
and the Scarborough's Rope isthe Holy Grail right now as far
as reading is concerned, right,and so if you look at that, if
you're not familiar withScarborough's rope, is the holy
grail right now as far asreading is concerned, right and
so if you look at that, ifyou're not familiar with
Scarborough's rope, you cangoogle it.
You can easily see that'sbecome and there's the.
It's called the reading rope.
If there's another way, there'sa writing rope, there's a math
rope.
Now they're, we're doing ropeswith strands.
(30:35):
If we picture this as a strand,basically you have all these
different pieces that have toplay and they bind together.
Ok, so you have the upperstrand and you have the lower
strand, and the upper strand isbasically building that
background, the backgroundknowledge.
That's our upper strand, that'sour vocabulary, that's our, all
(30:56):
of our things that are going tolead to good comprehension
skills or visualization, all ofthose great, good skills.
And then you have your lowerstrand, which is your decoding
strand, basically getting tothat process of phonological and
phonemic awareness, and sotrying to build both of those
has to happen simultaneously andyou have a whole plethora of
(31:17):
things where this can fall apartand if you miss one strand, you
miss something significant tothe reader.
Okay, and many readers who arecompensatory readers cover up
that loss, and the compensatoryreader is a reader who's missing
a significant strand, but theycompensate by using other tools,
(31:40):
other things to get themthrough that process.
In my practice, I am seeing aton of kiddos now that are
missing the imagination stationfor their brain, their visual
sketch pad, and the visualsketch pad is super, super
important for the readingprocess but you can't comprehend
(32:00):
without it, like it is theskill, and so I see a lot of
kiddos who are reading and thenyou ask them a simple question
and they're like they read thewords.
They're functionally illiteratebecause they can say every one
of those words beautifully, butthey created no meaning while
they were reading those words.
Okay, and that is why we'reseeing more of the developmental
(32:23):
language disorder.
The developmental languagedisorder is growing at leaps and
bounds right now in a crazy way, and I know that's not our
topic that we're discussingtoday, but it feeds into why our
scores continually have thistight ship that we just cannot
get up.
We cannot get that rope upbecause we're not putting all
(32:44):
the pieces in play that need tobe in play, and if you don't put
all those different pieces intoplay in an effective manner and
if you script too much, asSandy was mentioning, if you get
too much scripting, then youdon't teach deep, you teach
shallow, and then there's neverthat experience, and then
there's never that experience.
And that I think that's mydaughter-in-law is a teacher, a
third grade teacher, and herscores were like some of the
(33:07):
best in the state and they werethe highest in her parish and
she was like the other day wewere talking about.
She said I'm worried that sameexpectation is going to be
placed on me with the currentgroup of kiddos that I teach.
And she said the difference istheir background knowledge is
much weaker and so as they go tothird graders to test, they're
(33:30):
going to have a harder timebecause their background
knowledge is very weak and Idon't have the time to teach
deep.
I don't have the time for themto experience it like that.
As a reading teacher.
I remember this one eighthgrade I was teaching Anne Frank
and teaching the diary of AnneFrank.
Dr. Amy Moore (33:51):
And.
Donesa Walker (33:51):
I literally made my class experience it, really
experience it.
It was intense.
I got the whole school on board.
I had the kids draw to see whattype of person that they were.
I was.
I really made them experienceit.
It was something and to theeffect that the news came out
because some people got upset,which you could see.
(34:14):
Okay, the understanding of itwas that this is a deep
experience.
So over the years I've seen acouple of my students who are
now grown and I never haveforgotten that.
That ingrained me so deeplythat I've never forgotten that
Teachers don't have anopportunity right now to teach
(34:34):
that deep.
Our parents need to understandthat they're going to have to be
building that vocabulary verydeep.
What the nation's report cardis telling us is that we're not
addressing the foundation whereit needs to be.
We have got to go out and wehave got to get some of these
machines, basically, and we'vegot to dig deeper.
(34:54):
We've got to get down to thebedrock and if you don't get
down to the bedrock, you're justcreating potholes for the
future.
Okay, because you're leavingbig old chunks of information
out or rocks that are going tobe messed up and it's going to
cause issues down the path inthat process.
One of the things we have toembrace is that there's
(35:14):
advantages to technology and AIand there's disadvantages, and
we need to understand wherethose are and embrace those that
are there.
And we need to also understandwhere the potholes are with
technology and we need to bescaffolding for that.
We need to be building thepieces in place that can help us
make that difference.
(35:34):
Because if we're not going toget to this foundational issue,
if we're not going to make thechanges that are necessary, then
this is going to be aperpetuation of weakness across
the board.
And now, with politically and alot of the changes that are
happening across our country,with children being pulled and
(35:57):
put into private schools andthings like that I will like,
here in Louisiana, the LouisianaGator Scholarship was just
introduced, which I think isamazing.
It's a great process because itallows children here in our
state to be able to take ourparents, to be able to take
monies through a scholarship anduse for services for
(36:19):
intervention for their child.
So basically they're getting acard where they for services for
intervention for their child.
So basically they're getting acard where they can choose and
create their own child'seducational journey.
I think that's powerful.
I think we also have to helpparents understand that every
parent, like it or not, is ahomeschool parent.
Okay, here we go, you choose.
Sandy Zamalis (36:43):
Are you concerned about your child's reading or
spelling performance?
Are you worried your child'sreading curriculum isn't
thorough enough?
Most learning struggles aren'tthe results of poor curriculum
or instruction.
They're typically caused byhaving cognitive skills that
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(37:05):
Learningrx one-on-one braintraining programs are designed
to target and strengthen theskills that we rely on for
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Learningrx can help youidentify which skills may be
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Learningrx can help youidentify which skills may be
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In fact, we've worked with morethan 125,000 children and
(37:25):
adults who wanted to think andperform better.
They'd like to help you getyour child on the path to a
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Give LearningRx a call at866-BRAIN-01 or visit
LearningRxcom.
Dr. Amy Moore (37:45):
That's LearningRxcom.
That's learningrxcom.
I think that's a great segue,because I was sitting here
thinking I'm not sure, as youwere talking about your
daughter-in-law's struggle ofnot being able to teach deep,
that is not because she doesn'thave the capability.
That is the nature of theeducation system, right.
It just does not allow us, itdoes not allow teachers the
(38:06):
luxury to go deep.
And so, then, is the schoolsystem even capable of fixing
this problem, or will this fallon a supplemental educational
intervention and the parents?
Is that the only way to fixthis problem?
Donesa Walker (38:28):
I think it is.
I think we have to embrace thereality as parents that we are
ultimately responsible for ourchild's educational prowess.
For our child's educationalprowess, educational prowess
varies from family to family.
Educational attainment what youput your value system on varies
from family to family.
(38:49):
Right, my husband was a gamewarden and he grew up in game
and fish and that type of things.
One of the things that wasreally important to him was that
our boys knew everything therewas to know about every animal
out under the sun.
Okay, I can tell you how manylaughing experiences that we've
had about flying squirrelsbecause I know nothing.
(39:11):
I've been married to this manfor 28 years and I can tell you
I hear a sound.
I'll say what is that?
He?
He'll say it's a such and suchduck and I'm like, okay, he
knows the sounds of animals andI have no ability to do that.
Okay, what I'm saying is thatit's impossible for one person
(39:32):
teacher, school, whatever tobuild that schema for every
single child.
You cannot ever do that.
I remember being an eighth gradeteacher and I had this sweet
little girl and she came intothe classroom one day and she
said Ms Walker, I have no ideawhy in the world.
People are going to go standaround that board outside at six
(39:55):
o'clock tonight and I said,marie, what are you talking
about?
And she said it says schoolboard meeting at 6 pm tonight.
Bada bing, yep, that's whereshe understood nothing about
what a school board was.
But there was a board outsidethat said school board meeting
(40:16):
tonight at six.
Lack of knowledge, lack ofschema.
She knew what the word boardmeant, but she didn't know what
the board meant in that context,and I think this goes back over
and over of the responsibilityof us as a society to build
those critical skills for kids,but also for parents to embrace
(40:37):
that every parent has theresponsibility of educational
attainment for their child to beat the level that they want to
be.
And that's what you have todrive that bus.
You have to think of the schooland the different components,
the extracurricular, thesupplementary education services
(40:58):
, the tutorials, all thedifferent organizations like
LearningRx that you partner withas your responsibility.
You do not think that it is theschool's responsibility to make
your child's teeth straight.
You do not think it is yourchild's responsibility to go to
school and be able to make goodchoices about everything if you
(41:23):
don't teach them to make thosegood choices, but yet you'll
blame that on the teacher and onthe school.
You have to take that ownership, and I think that's the shift
that we have to take as ourbrain and our responsibility and
(41:44):
our responsibility.
Dr. Amy Moore (41:44):
Wow, all right.
Unfortunately we are out oftime, but we are going to do a
second episode so that we candig into what that looks like
for parents.
What do parents need to knowabout the role that they can
play in helping their childrenbe strong readers, strong
comprehenders, completelyliterate, right, how?
(42:05):
This can't just fall on theteachers, because, as we've seen
in the trends of the NationalReport Card over and over again,
this just isn't something thatschools can do alone, nor should
they.
Right From what I'm alsohearing you say, you're going to
have to tune in to our nextepisode to find out part two on
what we can do about all of this.
(42:26):
So, listeners, thank you so muchfor being with us today.
If you liked our show, we wouldlove it if you would leave us a
five-star rating and review onApple podcasts so that we get
ranked higher, and gettingranked higher means we can reach
more parents like you guys.
We'd love it if you wouldfollow us on social media.
We are at the Brainy Moms onInstagram and Facebook.
(42:47):
If you'd rather see our faces,you can find us on YouTube at
the Brainy Moms, and that is allthe smart stuff that we have
for you today.
We hope you feel a littlesmarter.
We're going to catch you nexttime.
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