Join Jacob Hansen and Colton Browning as they delve into their backgrounds in the AEC industry, emphasizing the importance of relationships and strategies for scaling firms. They explore the evolution of services with Building Information Modeling (BIM), discussing its purpose, application, and the need for buy-in and communication. A case study on BIM at TSMC highlights its practical use. The episode addresses challenges in scheduling, cost, and collaboration, stressing early involvement and coordination between contractors. Listen in for BIM war stories and success tales, offering insights and advice for newcomers to the field.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
So before, Will, before you go, for thelisteners and for us, explain BIM one sentence
(00:06):
really simply.
BIM is building information modeling and BIM isa tool.
BIM is not an object, not
a software.
A software is not a picture.
Because, actually, we should call it a toolbelt Mhmm.
To to be a little more comprehensive.
Have you ever wondered how successfularchitecture, engineering, and construction
(00:29):
company scale their business?
Or have you ever wanted guidance on how to getmore growth, wealth, and freedom from your AEC
company?
Well, then you're in luck.
Hi.
I'm Will Forret.
And I'm Justin Nagel, and we're your podcasthosts.
We interview successful AEC business leaders tolearn how they use people, process, and
(00:49):
technology to scale their businesses.
So sit back and get ready to learn from theindustry's best.
This is building scale.
Hey, listeners.
It's Will here.
Our mission is to help the AEC industry protectitself by making technology easy.
If you've ever listened to our show, then youknow that the three pillars of scaling a
(01:12):
business are people, process, and technology.
So if you suspect technology is your weak link,then book a call with us to see where we can
help maximize your company's IT andcybersecurity strategy.
Just go to buildingscale.net/health.
Today's guests are Jacob Hansen and ColtonBrowning.
(01:32):
Jacob is the founder of Hansen ConsultingGroup, HCG, a business solutions and BIM
consulting firm serving multiple industries.
He specializes in organizational structure,program optimization, and strategic
transformation.
He's passionate about creating a more connectedand advanced built world through BIM
consulting, coordination, and modeling.
His recent work includes building BIM programsfor clients, including Taiwanese GC on the TSMC
(01:58):
AZ Fab 21 project.
Colton is a partner mechanical engineer and BIMmanager in HCG, known for leading high
performance coordination teams.
He brings deep expertise in CAD, BIMprocessing, process piping, thermal pipe stress
analysis using tools like Revit, Cesar two, andScan to BIM.
(02:19):
Colton focuses on bridging design and fieldprecision, helping teams deliver cost
effective, structurally sound solutions fromconcept to completion.
Together, Jacob and Colton are helping reshapehow construction teams leverage BIM and
leadership to drive smarter, more integratedproject delivery.
And with all those many kind words and warmregards said, gentlemen, welcome to the show.
(02:42):
Thank you.
Appreciate you having us here.
Yeah.
We're excited.
We don't we don't dive into, you know, as in wedo IT and cyber, but we're not them.
Right?
We we are not that.
We're very much not that.
And people start always saying, well, you dotechnology, so it's all the same.
It's like, it's not in any way, shape, or formthe same.
So, yeah, so this is gonna be exciting.
Before we get into all the BIM funness, tell usa little bit of your origin stories.
(03:04):
Tell us how you got into the industry and alittle bit of history about the firm.
Yeah, I'll give you a start.
You know, Hanson Consulting Group as a whole,obviously my last name Hanson, you know, I'd
started the firm a little over three years ago,but my origins in the AEC space nearly a decade
ago started in the residential side, got intoroughing and trimming homes on the electrical
(03:25):
side, you know, gave me some insight and someopportunity that really piqued my interest, led
me to where I am today.
That slowly evolved into like commercial,eventually got opportunities to get into,
thankfully enough, the semiconductor, thehigh-tech mission critical space, had the
opportunity to dive into BIM early on as fieldBIM coordinator.
(03:48):
It evolved more into BIM management, gave methe exposure to a lot of different facets of
BIM, CAD, VDC within the AEC space that I'mvery, very fortunate for.
Very thankful for a lot of the connections too.
I think I should probably say that first aboveanything else, is a lot of the relationships
that made that happen.
(04:08):
Connections are king.
Find that to be true and truer every day.
Absolutely.
You know, and that's really where we're attoday as a company.
And I think Colton would testify to this too,is, you know, we're here to build partnerships,
build these relationships with people in theindustry that are going to last for decades.
As we continue to scale, as we continue tobuild, as we continue to become more efficient
(04:30):
in our processes and operations, we've got tobe able to communicate and help each other.
Thank you.
And as a partner here, my name is ColtonBrowning.
I started I graduated from mechanicalengineering school at ASU.
Go Devils.
The Go Devils.
Go Devils.
Yeah, graduated from there a very long timeago, it feels like, over about a decade now.
(04:51):
And right out of school, I got my first job asa project manager for a roofing, commercial
roofing company, and I really got my feet wetin the construction industry at that point,
understanding how things work.
And it was cool going on two different projectsand I was fortunate being able to be the
roofing contractor or the last ones on-site.
And so, not the last ones, but the last onesbefore the dry end.
And so, we get to see how the whole structuregets to get and go into play and how the
(05:14):
different trades interact.
And so, that really piqued my interest andshowed me how the construction industry evolves
and moves throughout the project, throughoutthe sequence of that.
And that's really what made me want to get intomore of a project management stance.
And after the roofing company, I got a job atIntel and their clean rooms and I started
(05:35):
working on their machines, actually doingmaintenance on their machines.
From there, I met Jacob at a company out therethat was doing construction for those machines
and designing the layouts for the MEP systems,the electrical, the mechanical, the process
piping for the different gases going throughthe process.
So, there, we just started working together anddesigning these machines and we found that
(05:59):
together we were actually very, very successfuland we're able to take processes that were in
place and streamline them and then change teamsthat were 20 people down to three, and it was,
it was quite, quite an experience, and fromthere, we were born in the subfab.
We went our separate ways and I continued doingthat and excelling in the BIM and then going
(06:22):
into the engineering field, where I starteddoing pipe stress analysis and evolving my pipe
knowledge.
And then we came back together and we're doingit all together now and it's really cool.
To piggyback off of what Jacob just said, it'sall about the relationships, the connections
you make, and the experiences you have, andeven from that roofing trailer that, or that
(06:44):
contractor I was working for, even walking intoconstruction trailers and having that
experience of being on-site really, reallybrings in that whole envelope of experience to
the table and that's really what we want to do.
We want to give people or professionals thespace to do what they do best, give them the
ability to give themselves the oversight andthe projects that they need or that they desire
(07:07):
in order to excel and be better.
So, as you mentioned, Jacob, the the firm isnamed after you.
So, when did when did it go from the solo shopto, hey, let's let's expand this out.
Let's get partner in here.
Let's get some employees.
Let's get let's get this thing rolling.
About eighteen months ago, that processstarted.
I was, prior to that point for about two years,an independent contractor just solely on my
(07:31):
own, providing BIM consulting services for afew different entities.
Just circumstances allowed me to step out andsay, okay, what do we want to do to continue to
scale this?
As I talked with some of his trusted familymembers, friends, and other individuals who
said, hey, you know, I really want grow.
I feel like I've gained enough experience.
I'm not an expert by any stretch ofimagination.
(07:52):
I absolutely hate that word, to be honest.
But I knew enough to say there's gaps here.
And in our specific vertical at that time waswas strictly semiconductor.
And they said there's there's contractors,there's designers, there's engineers, there's
there's multiple entities, multiplestakeholders on these projects that I can see
(08:14):
the gap that they're missing in BIM and VDC.
Necessarily technical, it's not about the AI,it's not about the implementation of a variety
of tools, it's about collaboration.
It's who can I connect with?
What can I do to solve somebody else's problemsand bring the right solutions to them?
Introduce Colton at that point.
You know, we've stayed in contact for for manyyears.
(08:36):
And I called him up, said, Colton, looking atsome opportunities here across the board,
whether it's been modeling or whether it'scoordination or management setting.
Need your help.
And we were fortunate enough to land a reallyawesome project last summer where we were
involved in some electrical modeling scope atIntel.
And Colton was a huge part of that.
He brings a lot of technical experience andexpertise, and he was able to bring, come in.
(08:59):
We built a team around the two of us thatallowed us to focus on getting the scope
accomplished.
And the rest is history.
We're today and we're doing more thansemiconductor now.
We're looking at engineering.
We're looking at architecture.
We're not diversifying too much in a sense, butwe're looking at opportunities.
What can we do to bridge different, differentgaps where there are, where there are problems
(09:20):
that need solutions?
So you started originally with the concept ofBIM coordination.
So why did it change?
Was it just opportunity landed at your feet orwas there something else?
I would say it's just that.
Yeah.
It it did start with BIM coordination.
Very simply, I was stuck in the middle of asemiconductor fab.
(09:43):
I was working with the trades, electricians,and and process pipe fitters.
And we were out there.
We were taking a BIM model.
We'd sit out there with a game box, and here'sthe computer.
Here's what it should look like.
Here's your guys' ISOs.
Let's map it out according to some sitecoordinates and whatnot.
Go make it fit.
And from there, it took a little while, butover a couple months and years, said, Hey, you
(10:06):
know, there's ways to be more efficient withthis.
It allowed me to get back into the office.
We're actually probably in the office for thefirst time working with moderators directly,
which Colton was at the time.
So, Colton, you guys are doing great at yourmodeling, but here's some suggestions, here's
some input.
Come out of the field with me.
Come look at this.
Let's either let's laser scan it.
Let's get your eyes out there and say, hey,this is not constructible, where there's better
(10:29):
ways of installing this electrical conduit.
So we were able to blend the office space, thefield space, which then naturally grew into
more of the management, the VDC coordination.
And I've learned it's just a natural process.
And that opened new doors with other companies.
It opened new doors with my own consultingpractices where I could go work on other
(10:51):
projects.
As you talked about just in the beginning, Iended up at TSMC with a variety of different
companies.
A lot of it was the consulting side where Icould go in and I can implement design and BIM
practices for for general contractor.
I could go work for a subcontractor and say,Hey, this is the best way to work with this
scope, with this GC.
And it really was just kind of a naturalprocess of opportunity.
(11:12):
Right people, right places, right time.
Will, before you go, for the listeners and forus, explain BIM one sentence really simply.
BIM is building information modeling and BIM isa tool.
BIM is not an object, not a software.
A software is not a picture.
It's actually we should call it a tool belt toto be a little more comprehensive.
(11:37):
It is not a one stop fix it all solution.
Got it.
Okay.
So this tool belt helps people do what?
You want to answer that one, Colin?
This tool belt that gives you the the it's atranslation tool between the trades.
It allows duct installer to come in and be anelectrician for a moment and get into the mind
(11:59):
of the person that he's trying to coordinatewith.
A picture's worth a thousand words and that'sessentially what we're providing is a detailed
picture, but it's not, it's way more than justa picture.
You can do BIM without the picture.
BIM is a tool that allows for all thecomponents within the model to be itemized and
extracted in a way that can be fabricated.
(12:22):
So, you can essentially hit print from a BIMmodel, send it to a fab shop, and it ends up in
the field where it can be installed.
Kind of like an IKEA bed frame.
You just, A goes to A, B goes to B, and thenyou can go down the line and the coordination's
already been done.
Well, look at what, look good for what it is,building information modeling, and information
(12:43):
requires input, it requires output.
You're going to have suggestions fromarchitects, engineers, and you're going to have
concepts.
You're going to have designs.
You then create it in a three d space.
You can then extract what's Colton's talkingabout in data is cost.
You can extract schedule.
You can extract environmental.
We refer to those as BIM dimensions.
If you do a quick Google search on that, you'llsee traditionally 1D through 7D.
(13:05):
And now people are starting to add on 9D, 10D,whether it's for others.
BIM's, like I said, a tool belt of justprocess.
And it's really dictated about what you putinto it and what you wanna get out of it.
So look, anyone that's doing any type ofbuilding, whether it's commercial or even
(13:26):
residential, has some sort of phases.
Right?
And they all interact.
Right?
Ducting, electrical, right, MEP, all thathappens.
So then why don't all projects does it makesense for all projects to have BIM to have that
overhead?
Pretty broad question.
Yeah.
Go ahead, Jacob.
Pretty broad answer.
(13:46):
It all depends because BIM isn't just here's amodel, go build.
There's different degrees or levels ofdevelopment on a model.
It can be very simple as a concept.
It can be as extreme and as polar as a digitaltwin, where you have a real living, breathing
construction document in a digital space thatcould be connected to real life data according
(14:12):
to cost, according to schedule.
You could talk about a real digital twin withsensors and real world input.
Not every project is going to need that.
Some projects may require concept and thenyou're going to have everything in between.
So it really just depends on the owner.
It depends on the contractor, whether it's aPMO organization, whether it's a GC, depends on
(14:33):
the capabilities of subcontractors, and then italso depends on the capabilities of a BIM and
VDC firm.
There's so many factors, and that's probablywhat makes this industry so challenging and so
polarizing in a lot of ways.
Oh, we like polarizing because Yes.
The the that's that's where the details are.
That's this is where what we wanna extract.
Right?
Mhmm.
(14:54):
But you guys work in pretty large scaleprojects.
Right?
And so you talked about a digital twinning.
Where is it that where it stops being adiscussion?
Like, if you're not doing this, it's you're notbeing competitive.
Good question.
Cole, do have any thoughts on
that?
I'm run
(15:15):
away with the show today?
Chewing on that one.
You take it right now.
I'll follow-up on the back end.
You know, it's an interesting interestingthought.
I've run into some, some individuals.
Was up at the Reality Capture Networkconference in Boise, back in the fall.
There's a gentleman who was working doingDigital Twin for Dallas Fort Worth, terminal,
(15:36):
terminal expansions.
And it was really fascinating On their project,they implemented RealityCapture.
They were out there doing the LiDAR scans.
They were implementing, like sensors,occupation sensors, where they could track
people coming and going through the terminal.
And they incorporated all this data into thesereal living models and allowed them to
(15:58):
understand and visualize the space in a moreeffective way.
In terms of layout, in terms of operation, interms of maintenance, It gave them a more
holistic approach towards the project as awhole.
Now there's other projects.
For example, TSMC, a little bit differentapproach.
You know, they have these big fabrications,these fabs, and we know exactly what's going to
(16:19):
go into them.
There's going be tool sets based off ofmanufacturing, which I won't speak to
manufacturing at all, not my wheelhouse, not myexperience, but a lot of that is what
predetermines the implementation, engineeringdesign, how the building's laid out.
And so they're probably not going to go as faras a DFW building because they already have in
their minds what they want to manufacture.
(16:41):
It then allows you to start this roadmap of,okay, we know where we want to get.
This is where we are.
We can weed out a lot of the extras.
We really only need to understand from a VDCstandpoint, our MEP systems are going to
collaborate.
What space management do we have?
Where can we utilize and be more efficient?
Where can we value engineer material out?
(17:01):
They're growing into some of the costs andschedule, but it's not quite there.
Like it may be on some other projects, which wedon't have a lot of experience in these, but
you're talking about like high rises and you'retalking about k through 12, you're talking
about hospitals or healthcare.
A lot of those projects are really, reallyinvolved in in the cost and schedule aspects of
BIM.
(17:22):
Whereas, semiconductor and others may not be atthis point.
So, because I'm gonna really really try here.
Obviously, this makes sense when you gotprobably billion dollar plus projects.
Does it make sense on a 20,000,000?
Like, especially at the level that you guys areworking at.
Does it really make sense at a 20,000,000, at a$5,000,000 project, million dollar project?
(17:43):
Or a tiny house?
I'm you know,
these are
all deep questions.
We get this all the time where people alwayssay, like, Tim seems it seems like a lot.
It seems like a lot for a project, but therehas to be these thresholds of like, oh, if
you're not doing this, you're totally leavingmoney on the table.
Like, it just it just becomes a simple businessdiscussion compared to any technical, any
(18:05):
process.
Well, we are doing a small project right now.
We're doing about a 2,400 square foot RV officespace, And we are using BIM.
We're not sinking a ton of money into it, butyeah, we've created concepts for it.
And we're working with architects.
We're working with engineers now to create someconstruction documents.
And it's definitely not a $10,000,000 project,maybe a couple $100,000 project.
(18:26):
But we Wow.
We use it for what needs to be used.
We really try to focus on on what matters andweed out anything that doesn't.
We get into a subcontractor who's doing a$4,050,000,000 dollar scope at semiconductor.
Absolutely.
We're gonna be a lot more involved in in theprocess and the tools and the technology we're
using and the implementation way more so thanwe would be on this little office space.
(18:50):
Mhmm.
So to answer your question, Will, yes, it canbe used on every project.
Just depends on to what degree it needs to beused and how much the owner shows the interest
in it and is willing to pay for that.
And to piggyback off of that, I agree witheverything Jacob has said.
What I've seen about projects is it alwayscomes down to what the owner needs.
If they want it to move fast, they want toavoid issues, if they want to get through the
(19:13):
permitting process, the red tape, before theconstruction happens, then use BIM, use our
design services to get you through that processso that you identify all the pinch points
before they even happen.
It gets to a point where you have a bunch ofcontractors on-site, want to get this done
quick, and so they rely on one coordinatinghead to make sure that that goes through.
So, that's really where BIM, the coordinationprocess of BIM, plays into the whole
(19:37):
construction process.
Now, for tiny homes or for even singleresidential homes, it doesn't need to be BIM'd?
The answer is no, it doesn't absolutely need tobe BIM'd, but it does have its value.
It holds its value in the cost analysis ifyou're gonna take that same design and apply it
in other places, like if you're doing aneighborhood or even a condo and you're using
(20:01):
that same concept across in different parts ofthe site, dimming would be very, very
beneficial.
But if you're just doing one of them and youhave maybe one electrician, one plumber and one
duct guy out there doing their job, they'repretty good at coordinating with each other and
they know where they're supposed to go.
The reality of them being, being in eachother's space is very limited.
So, there might not be a purpose for that.
(20:21):
It could be handled by a more traditionalproject manager or coordinator.
And I've heard it enough too.
You know, you talk about some of the smallscale things.
If you're scaling your product or your service,it definitely makes more sense than a one off.
But if you look at modular, you look at tinyhomes, you look at companies like Boxabl and
others who are building thousands of thesethings, they've absolutely bimmed their
(20:44):
product.
Guarantee you.
They've engineered it, they've designed it,they've conceptualized it in three d spaces.
They understand unit rates, they understandcosts.
They understand everything that goes into theirproduct.
And BIM as building information model, a toolbelt has allowed them to be more efficient in
that product development and marketing andsales and everything that goes into it.
(21:05):
Take that design, you copy paste it otherplaces, you can print it off and have it
shipped.
You can drop ship buildings.
It's essentially how that works.
So, so to be clear, me building my one cabin upin Payson, maybe not, will drop shipping, you
know, 50,000 homes or, you know, tiny homes,yeah, probably you should probably have BIM.
(21:27):
Correct.
I I would agree so.
Yeah.
Now, Justin, if you wanna build your littlecabin up there, you know, if the price is
right, we could always say, Hey, let's let'screate a three d model for you.
We'll go scan the site, make sure it fits, makesure you don't have to demo any trees or
nothing.
Know,
we'll make it
it.
I love the sales.
So one, one big question, we always have islike, how do you get buy in from the people,
the boots on the ground?
So that not necessarily somebody in the office,but how do you get people buy in from a
(21:50):
superintendent level?
Like, technology isn't always the first thingthey think of is like, this is going to be
beneficial for my job site.
So how do you get them to buy in?
That's that's that's been a pain point in thein the past, but it's also been something that
both Jacob and I are passionate about is thatcommunication and bringing people to the table.
When we first started, or I'll I'll use myexperience as a modeler at the same company,
(22:13):
we, it was, we were starting that BIMdepartment and the field kind of, the field
technicians, the installers, they kind of feltlike the BIM team was taking the creativity
away from their, from their job.
And so, it was more of a mindset shift that hadto take place.
Me coming in there doing doing the modeling,thought I was telling them what they I wanted
(22:34):
them to do and they had to follow it.
And that that is absolutely not true.
I'm not an installer.
I'm I manipulate the software, I'm able to useit to get you the results that you're looking
for in order to streamline the process.
So, need, I need your buy in, I need your, Ineed your words, I need, I need your
experience, otherwise this won't work.
So, actually, it takes time, you sit down withthem, you have these conversations, and no one
(23:00):
wants to waste time, so ten minutes down theline they see that this conversation has to
take place, that you are going to findsolutions, and so they, they start presenting
their solutions, and then as time goes on, youget out in the field, they actually implement
what we talked about in the meeting, and thenit really closes that loop.
It makes them feel like they were part of thatwhole process, they, they manage the entire
(23:21):
coordination effort.
So, that's how I've been able to get the buyin, is by just having those conversations.
And then on back end as well, the BIM helps youunderstand where problems went wrong in the
install process.
You can identify your issues with yourinstalling and also things that are costing a
little bit more.
(23:42):
So, that can also cause issues, but, you know,it does streamline the process quite a bit.
And I So,
let me pause there for a second.
Yeah.
Would this so, traditionally so, let's talkabout sources of truth for a second.
Because I think is what BIM helps solve.
Would you would you agree?
Yeah.
Love what you just said there.
(24:03):
That's great.
Sources of truth.
Because because part of the communication partof the problem is communication, especially
live on the field versus architect versusengineer.
Right?
Mhmm.
And when updates happen to the plans.
Yes.
And the timeliness of plan updates.
(24:24):
And then, obviously, what everyone hates tosome degree or another is rework.
Right?
Prevent preventing some sort of rework.
How much does this consolidate to a singlesource of truth?
Is it the single source of truth, or is itchanging it from, like, 20 sources of truth to
just maybe a handful?
We want it to be the single source of truth.
(24:45):
Every project, I know I keep sounding probablysound like broken record here.
Every project's different.
It all depends on the accountability and theintegrity of the project stakeholders
contractually.
How it's written into contracts or some substhat may or may not have varying degrees of BIM
involvement.
Some may say, Hey, this is our deliverable.
(25:06):
This is X, Y, Z.
This is what we're gonna do.
We're not gonna do anything beyond that or lessthan that.
Or you may have another subcontractor who maybedoes have a degree of of involvement a little
higher.
A good example of this, I'll go back to thisone at TSMC.
It has some work with JB Henderson, wonderfulcontractor, process contractor, was able to
(25:26):
work with them and and their and their BIMgroup detailed CAD services and support them
from a VDC aspect and and help manage theirproject.
It was really fascinating to work on thatproject with countless number of other trades
where what I just said in terms of varyingdegrees of involvement differed, like, vastly.
(25:46):
It was crazy.
But JB Henderson, we we allowed them to stickto a plan.
We went from A through Z, and we said, this iswhat our deliverable is going to be.
Get a little technical.
We're going say we're going do an LOD 400model.
It's going to be constructible.
We want to do prefabrication to some degree.
We want shop drawings.
We want ISOs.
(26:07):
We want to be able to build everything, bringit on-site, weld it all up, sign it off, be
done, get it commissioned and all.
So with that understanding, we were able tostart with a process from the very, very
beginning.
Okay.
What do we need to put into our models?
Who's going to do it?
How's it going be done?
We need to get buy off from the generalcontractor.
We need to get buy off from other entities.
(26:28):
We call that an IFC process or an IFF process,this issue for fabrication.
So we walk through this path with them.
And at the very end, when you start installingand then you realize somebody's in my space or
this is not gonna fit here or we need to find anew location, We can have all this
documentation all the way back to the beginningand say, hey, this is what the plan was.
(26:50):
What happened?
Nine times out of 10, we were not at fault.
I could probably even say 9.9 out of 10, wewere not at fault.
It was always somebody else who either did nothave a clear plan.
They didn't use models for what they wereintended for.
They were not coordinating with other people inproject coordination space.
(27:11):
And it gave us the credibility to say, you'rewrong.
You need to move.
Rip your content out.
You're in our space and you're at cost.
And if you don't and we have to move, well,here's a change order.
Move on.
Boy.
Yeah.
So that's where, when we start talking aboutcontracts and you start talking about this, you
know, you really get into the details of that.
(27:32):
It is really, really important on these megaprojects that you are very accountable to it
because I think that'll give what gives BIM abad rap in these in these projects is when
there's no accountability, it does become acost overrun.
It does become obnoxious.
People hate it.
It's spent.
It's costing them millions of dollars andthey're like, what are we getting out of it?
We're not solving our problems because they'renot being efficient.
(27:56):
Well, that's what Cole and I want to do.
We want to say, hey, let's cut out all thiscrap.
Let's focus on what really matters.
Everybody's got their own opinion about it.
I think everybody's opinion is true to adegree.
So let's figure out what works best foreverybody as a whole and solve these issues.
Everybody's got an opinion, and they allstinks.
I think it's worth
it.
Yeah.
(28:17):
You mentioned a term LOD.
Can you for the people out there that arelistening, what does LOD mean?
And can you give sort of different levels?
Because, I mean, it's everything from 100 to600, I think, and then one d to 40, 5D, 60.
You talked about 90 even.
There's two things there.
You have BIM dimensions, which is 1D throughtraditionally 70.
(28:39):
We'll leave that where it stands.
It's just different degrees of BIM andimplementation.
LOD is a level of development.
How detailed is your BIM going to be?
100 is concept, 200 is plans, traditionalplans, plan views, elevations, etc.
LOD 300 is the three d element.
You've you've got some some three d environmentwhere you can conceptualize what your project
(29:03):
is gonna look like.
It's not super detailed.
It may not be the manufacturer specs, but atleast you have something to represent it.
It's geometry.
It's space management.
LOD three fifty is correlated with materialspecifications.
It's very specific.
You can pull in cut sheets and you knowexactly.
If you look at the model and you click on anelement to say, Hey, you know what?
(29:25):
Yeah, that's EMT or that's rigid.
Or you can say that stainless steel or it'snatural gas.
OD400 is now you're saying, this is not just aconstruction model, but this can be built
according to scale.
This is can be built according to specificmeasurements.
You've included hardware, you've got nuts,bolts, accessories, everything included.
(29:47):
And that's where Colton talked about if you'rethen prefabbing.
If you're doing off-site, you can take that 400model.
You can basically send it to a fab shop andsay, hey, build this.
Put it on a truck and go bolt it onto the inthe in the fab.
And then the lastly is LOD 500, which is goingbe your ads built.
Once the project's done, you can go in and youcan dimension everything.
You can use reality capture.
(30:08):
You can do traditional hand take offs, ISOs,and then rebuild the model in the back end and
have it match exactly what's in real life.
And the great reference for this, which Itraditionally follow LOD BIM Forum.
And you can Google that and find that.
And that's generally what we follow when we'redoing bids and proposals is we're to say, we're
(30:29):
doing LOD 300 according to BIM form LOD.
And they come out with standards like everyyear, every two years.
So 400, you can build it.
Like you can literally hear all the pieces
to
hit print.
And you're saying, also, people are talkingabout 10, you know, 910.
Right?
Is that ex that's in existence?
(30:50):
D, you know, through
9D99 d, 10 d, everything.
Yep.
What the hell else do you have left?
If you've got it all, if you've got fullcontent, you've got you can literally build the
thing.
What else is what else is there above it?
You don't have go into each individually, but,like, what are big concepts of, oh, if you want
700, well, that's x.
Well, it's funny.
(31:11):
What's frustrating from our point of view isthe space that we've in the projects on.
They don't even get beyond three d.
They don't even get beyond the three d modelsbecause once you hit 40, you're talking about
schedule.
When are people tying a three d model into aschedule?
There's platforms out there.
Bentley has a great one called Syncro that doesit.
(31:31):
There's a few others where you can actually tiemodel elements into a schedule and say, hey, we
can track as this project moves on.
If your P6 or something is actually built rightand a project actually uses it, which we're
seeing less and less of in some of our spaces,unfortunately, there's some great correlation
back and forth.
And then you jump to 5D, which is going becost.
(31:52):
You can actually pull every single element outof that model, every nut, bolt, piece of
conduit, linear feet, whatever you want.
Man hours.
You can estimate it and you can build cost intoyour entire project.
When you get beyond that, you get 60environmental stuff, 70, you got operations and
maintenance.
There are some people that are there, but I'mgonna say majority of them are not.
(32:14):
Bring it back to the three d and understand whyyou're using the model in the first place.
What do you wanna get out of it?
Then let's have the conversation about where weneed to go.
Everybody wants the big, grand new stuff.
They wanna use AI.
They wanna use all these tools, but they hardlyeven know how to use a model.
Let alone know how to view it or how to extractany data
it.
So, what I just heard, and correct me if I'mwrong, what I just heard is you're talking
(32:39):
about, I think the term that I've heard beforeis TCO, total cost of ownership, and the length
of time for total cost of ownership.
Right?
There's the total cost of ownership just to thepoint of the end of the project.
There's total cost of ownership of, well, I'vedeveloped the building.
(33:00):
Right?
There's the total cost of ownership of, I'vedeveloped the building and now I'm running the
things that are inside of the inside of thebuilding.
And then there's total cost of ownership oflike the twenty year maintenance or whatnot.
Right?
Okay.
So, that's a very holistic view and I totallyunderstand why people would not be using the
more advanced ones.
(33:20):
But four d to me, sounds like the fourthdimension is time because that's to do with
scheduling.
Mhmm.
So three d the difference between three d andfour d is really are your, you know, different
crews getting in the way or not of each otherYes.
Along with along with all the equipment that,you know, goes with it.
(33:42):
And most people don't have the processes exceptfor maybe the really big contractors, like the
turners and stuff like that out there.
They probably don't have the processes in placeor the maturity to go, yeah, I have so much
process that I will not overlap, and I havecost control on top of it.
(34:03):
Because now you're controlling time, timeelements
Mhmm.
Which is super precious, but hard to control onon smaller projects.
Okay.
Well, it makes that totally makes sense to me.
Well, I like that you brought that out too,because look at look at the different
involvement.
Whether it is a turner or another generalcontractor, they're gonna have more control,
(34:23):
more oversight over that schedule as a whole,and are gonna dictate the input that goes into
it.
A subcontractor is gonna focus on their scope.
If it's an electrical contractor, they may taketheir BIM and build it into their own personal
p six and say, okay.
Here's what we have for a scope.
Cable trace can go in, duct banks are going togo in, etcetera.
But they don't care about everybody else.
So it really comes down to a project as awhole, the owner, the GC, PMO, whoever it is,
(34:48):
are they implementing BIM?
Are they implementing the models?
Are they wanting to take it as far as to put itinto the schedule?
Do they see the value in using the BIM andtying it into other facets of a project in
terms of cost and schedule?
If they're not, then when they need to becareful is to, you know, how far are they
pushing contractors or what is the expectationfor the use?
(35:08):
What is the deliverable?
Is everybody going to just do arts and craftsas Colton says?
Are they going to create pretty quick risk?
Or does the owner really want to take this BIMmodel and do they want to extract all the data
out of it?
Intel has done a great job of that.
In recent years, they use quantity surveyorslike faithful and gold and Curry and Brown and
(35:29):
others, and where they can actually go into themodel and they'll actually do takeoffs of trade
scope and say, Hey, you guys should haveinstalled X number of linear feet of conduit.
We're actually gonna, we're gonna send you acheck for what's in the model, not necessarily
what's in the field.
They're going to, they're going to, they thenprojects are leaning this way because then
(35:51):
your, your model in a sense, like your, yourdesign packages, your, IFC packages, those
that's, that's the contract document.
That's what you're building to.
So, if you're holding trades responsible to themodel and saying that's what you're going to
get billed or that's what you're going get paidon, you want it to be absolutely accurate.
And when you start, oh, sorry to cut you off,Justin,
(36:11):
if I could.
So just to piggyback off of that with the withthe experience out there in the subfab, there
it goes up.
So you first start out the architectural model,the structural model, and you find a lot of
trades that they put a beautiful little holeright in this spot where everyone wants to
transfer through that hole.
It's not big enough for all the trades, so youhave the trades fighting over it.
(36:33):
If you identify that early on in the process,you can get up the chain and they could put
more than one hole.
They could put several different pass throughsfor the traits.
So, we've actually implemented that in someprevious projects where they've added more core
holes and fireproofed it in order to add moreroom for the traits because it is a great pass
through.
So, it's a the coordination effort as a whole,it goes up and down the chain as we are, we're
(36:56):
going through the the process.
So as you were saying this, obviously you gavean example of like, well, a trade partner,
especially trade, can come in and just do, hey,we're just doing this.
So we're only focused on this and we have amodel for that.
But is the model coming from the GC or from adeveloper?
Like, what is there as this process ishappening, I assume like the GC is saying, hey,
(37:19):
this is what we're building.
These are all the trades that are involved inthis building.
We're gonna, Hey, we expect you to do yourportion of this, but wouldn't you want that
trade to use their expertise upon, Hey, like weshould be doing it X this way or that way
compared to like the, you know, there's areason why things are subcontracted out because
(37:39):
of the fact of like, well, we're not theexperts here.
We don't have the manpower to do this and wedon't necessarily know the best way to approach
plumbing or electrical or whatever it is.
So how is it built to make sure that like, oh,what you've built in this BIM model from the
top is actually the best way to do it as youpass it down the line to the trades?
Well, that's what's fascinating now more sothan ever is is contract methodology, when and
(38:05):
how people are being introduced to projects.
Some types of contractors won't get an RFPuntil after design's so far down the road.
Don't have any broken.
But also the other way is, well, how do you?
How do you get on especially on a project thisbig on take a TSMC, for example.
You can't bring in fifty, sixty subs and havethem all give input and design process.
(38:27):
Nothing will ever get done.
So there has to
that's why you were in place.
You bring them all in and then you organizethem.
Ain't that the whole thing?
I feel like there's a there's a there's a jokehere of how many engineers is to take the screw
in a light bulb.
Well, that and that's what that's what's sointeresting now more than ever is what are what
do we need to do in terms of collaboration froma cost standpoint?
Because everybody's in business, everybodywants to get paid.
(38:49):
If you're going to have 50 people come in, howmuch time is it going to take?
Do we have the right input?
Let's say one person says one thing and sixmonths down the road, they're gone and
somebody's like, who the heck made thisdecision?
It's so, so much more challenging than what yousee a face about.
But I think that's where there's, there's,there's a ton of opportunity, and especially at
(39:10):
the owner level, GC level, a lot of the EPCPMOs is what are we saying on the high level
concept side of it, you know, preconstruction?
What are we doing to understand the end goal,the deliverable?
If we know that we want a specific BIMdimension or BIM LOD at the very end, Well,
(39:31):
let's have those conversations.
Let's talk with the trades early on.
Let's talk with the engineers, architects.
Let's understand the commissioning side of it.
Let's understand all the other variables thatgo in and make sure everybody understands what
it is we're actually building and how we'regoing to do it.
The worst thing that I've ever seen on a coupleof projects, and I won't say the projects
specifically on these ones, but when you getsubcontractors involved and they get given a
(39:54):
design model and it can vary.
Sometimes they can just be given some plan setsand they can P and IDs, one lines, and say, go
build a three d model.
Or other times they can get like an LOD 200,300, where it's actually a three d design model
And then you're told to go trace it.
Okay.
Now go make it constructible based off of yourconstruction experience.
(40:17):
And everybody has a different way of doingthat.
They use different softwares in how theyauthor.
And then the goal is you bring everybody backtogether, what we call a federated model.
And you have design model, you haveconstruction models all roped into one, and you
say, let's figure it out.
You throw everything into a big pot and say,let's make it work.
When you get onto a project and not everycontractor's involved in that sometimes because
(40:42):
they contractually are not, sometimes becausethey don't have the teams to do it.
And so they oftentimes either don't do it or dothe bare minimum.
And then you have the other contractors.
Great props to people like Harder Mechanical.
I mean, awesome, awesome BIM program.
They have incredible prefabrication processes.
They do a lot of modular off-site OSM.
And it's hard for them to come in because thenthey get frustrated and they see other people.
(41:05):
It's like, these guys aren't doing anything.
How are we supposed to coordinate?
How are we supposed to stay on top of our gameand build one time?
The whole point of doing BIM is to build outonce and not have to rework, not have to rip
out, when these other guys are just stickbuilding and they're just going in there and
getting everybody's way.
And that makes the project so, so challenging.
It makes you want to just hit your head againstthe wall and say, why are we doing this?
(41:26):
And even for me as a BIM person, as a BIM BDC,I sometimes get those experiences in the
projects and it's tough because like, this isthe world I'm in it's really not going well.
So if the specialty trade doesn't have a BIMperson or a BIM team, who then builds it?
Or do we say like, I don't we're just going toavoid using you because you don't, you don't
have somebody that can actually give us inputthat is in the same language model and all
(41:51):
everything else that you just explained.
Yeah.
They have everyone
on the same playing field.
Everyone has to be at that level.
They do.
And so it all depends contractually too.
RFPs and bids.
Some of them will explicitly say, like, youneed to have a BIM program and we need proof of
that, etcetera, etcetera.
Or others may say, yeah, you will require this.
You guys figure it out.
So if you got a subcontractor who doesn't knowanything about BIM, and I've done some of these
(42:14):
too, they call you up and say, hey, can you youBIM this for us?
Can you give us these pictures?
It's like, that's really not how it works.
They've already signed a contract.
They've already got price locked in.
So there's not a lot of flexibility.
Those ones are the best to work with becausethey they have this fixed price and you have to
work inside of it.
Sometimes it works.
Sometimes it doesn't.
Mhmm.
But yeah, their responsibility is eitherbuilding a house, which is very difficult or to
(42:36):
outsource it.
Then you have a thousand different people withdifferent opinions on how, how that scope
should be done.
Oh yeah.
Yeah.
It's fun.
Really, really exciting space And acrossdifferent industries, different verticals,
differs.
Oil and gas is way, way different than it wouldbe for, like, commercial than it would be for
semiconductor data center.
Principles are generally the same.
There's typical precedents in in terms of BIMmodeling and and accountability.
(43:00):
But project types and specs and engineering, itcan vary.
What about some wars?
What about some war stories?
What are things that you've seen that shit BIMsaved the day here?
Like BIM saved this project a ton of rework ora ton of change orders?
I have one that comes to mind.
I'll jump in here before you, Jacob.
Yeah, please.
Another story from the subfab.
(43:23):
When Jacob and I were down there, we hadimplemented some laser scanning ideologies so
that we or practices so that we can actuallyget the content into the model accurately.
We had been scoped with this specialtygenerator that we, I think it was, pretty sure
it was a generator, it was just some sort ofequipment, a big piece of equipment that was
down in the depths of the bowels of the subfab,And we had to go all the way down there, seven
(43:46):
flights of stairs, deep, deep down into thedungeons of this place.
They had we had we spent a lot of time downthere.
We figured out exactly where they needed toplace it.
We could even put little stickered X's on theground where each corner is gonna have to be
put of that generator and we knew he's gonnawork exactly.
We modeled all the piping, the blowers, thediffusers, everything was exactly where it
(44:07):
needed to be.
We had it mounted to the wall, to the columns,it was beautiful.
I was very proud of this, this solution weprovided.
I got a call the day the equipment wasdelivered and they said, your model's not gonna
work.
And I said, no, it's going to work.
I know for a fact it's going to work, but didthey send the wrong generator?
They this is something different than for whatI expect.
And I said, no, it's all the same.
(44:28):
So, I went out there and I looked in the fieldand they generators on the X's, everything was
exactly where I put it and I'm like, what'sgoing on here?
Long story short, it came down that one of themain blowers that came out the top of the unit
was offset quite a bit and the installer didn'tdidn't install it the exact location that we
(44:48):
had specified and because of that all thepiping that went up out of the equipment was
different.
Everything had to change, and that would havecost the company two, three weeks of rework for
all of us to re go in there, us to re bin it,for them to reinstall it, everything would have
just been a nightmare.
I can't even put a dollar amount to that, butsince we were able to identify that the problem
(45:11):
was just that they used the wrong bolt hole,and yeah, exactly, let's slide it from here to
here and it's magically it magically works,That is what we do.
That is how we do it and there are mistakesthat are going to happen and being that person
that was able to answer that in time and nothave to have a hiccup in the whole timeline of
(45:35):
the project, it was huge.
It's a it's a big deal.
It saves lots of time and and money on the backend.
That's amazing.
That's tons and tons of saved money.
Also, not to mention, I didn't know BIM peoplewere such such athletes.
Seven flights of stairs up and down times.
Holy shit.
You stay in shape working out there in thosesemiconductor pads.
(45:55):
You have to walk multiple miles a day.
Sometimes 15 miles.
It's crazy.
If you want, I got two brief stories I canshare some some Yeah.
Please.
I got a horror story and then also a reallygood example of how and why, how and why it
works.
Do it.
Let's hear it.
The first one is, is, is kind of funny, youknow, it goes to show I'd go as far as saying
some of the ignorance or maybe the, themisconceptions about BIM.
(46:19):
We were working, it was TSMC and there was somestructural overhead racks that were carrying
some pipe and cable tray and whatnot.
And a contractor I was working for claimed thatthose racks were not installed per the BIM
model.
And so we went out there, we scanned it with alaser scanner and sure enough, you know, we
compared the point cloud against the model.
(46:40):
And yeah, they were out, they were like sixinches lower than they should have been.
And so we brought a team of thirteen, fourteenpeople together into the BIM Room, different
contractors, everybody that has some scope on arack said, Hey, here's what's going on.
And the rack installer, he's like, We don'ttrust the point cloud.
Says and and it gets better than this.
(47:00):
He's like, no.
No.
No.
We we were sure we were sure that it fits, blahblah blah.
And they took 13 people out there.
So we already have a thirty, forty minutes inan office.
They then walked 13 people out to the fab.
And so at this point, they've probably killedan hour and a half, two hours of day for that
many people to then pull out a tape measure andfind out that absolutely they were wrong.
They cut them back and say, yeah, I guessyou're right.
(47:23):
It's funny.
We have the process, the tools, technology.
Why are we not using it?
Come on.
The point cloud doesn't lie.
13 people's time.
Two hours.
I mean, it's small in terms of three years of aproject, but come on.
What an absolute waste of money.
What a waste of time.
You could have said, we've scammed this.
(47:44):
This is survey grade equipment.
I mean, the accuracy is three millimeters orless.
I mean, it's insane.
And and you're gonna say that the point cloudis wrong.
Like, come on.
Another good example on on the positive side issimilar actually, it was an Intel project,
similar to a story to Colons in a way.
But we we were working out there and there wassome distribution panels, transformer and
(48:07):
branch panels that we were trying to locate inthe space.
We're working directly with the engineer atthis point.
It was base build scope.
I should clarify, we've gone almost an hour inthis conversation.
There's two generally different scopes onsemiconductor building.
It's base build, which is going to be your coreinstall, your structure, everything goes into
it.
And then tool install, which is the equipmentmanufacturing equipment so that we go install.
(48:28):
So base build here, we're talking about largepanels.
Engineer had mapped out.
He'd given us some plan drawings and said, Hey,this is where this needs to go.
We've gone out there.
We've measured it.
It's going to fit.
So we know our clearances.
We know our equipment clearances.
We know radius is on conduit.
I mean, at this point we're using three, fourinch conduits, so pretty large radiuses.
And Cole and I were working on this one withanother, another modeler at the time.
(48:51):
And I was out there very heavily in the field.
Was like, this ain't going to fit.
I already know the radius is on these conduit.
We've had these other experiences.
And it was a little tough because we actuallyhad to go to the engineer and call them out in
a nice way and said, Hey, this isn't going tofit.
This is going to work.
And they typically don't like to hear that.
They're like, no, we've spec ed this.
This is right.
I even had our project manager and she's like,hey, you gotta careful what you say.
(49:14):
You can't just go to Intel engineer and tellthem they're wrong.
It's like, why not?
Whatever.
They're wrong.
Like, let me tell you the truth.
They're like, we we're not wrong.
We're Intel.
Yeah.
And so we we modeled it for him and we put itin that space because we had it scanned.
We're like, dude, it's not gonna fit.
And you should have seen his eyes again.
There was at this point, we were a couple ofdays into it, got a couple of engineers
(49:37):
together from Intel and from Jacobs, andthey're like, oh my gosh, you're not you did.
You're right.
So, we'd not modeled anything in any sense oftechnicality, but not super far down the road.
We'd not fabbed anything.
We've not installed anything.
Think about if we had not done that process.
They have a transformer distribution board,four inch conduit for a couple 100 feet wire.
(49:59):
If they had gone to put all that in, that wouldhave been horrible.
And what that what that proved from that momenton, we worked with that engineer super closely
for months.
He's like, I want you guys to work on all ourbase build scope, all our electrical.
We laid out everything.
We scanned it.
We bimmed it.
And we were able for months to just go in onetime, model it, install it, done.
(50:23):
Signed off.
And there were never re there was never rework.
There was never we actually shortenedschedules.
We decreased the cost on everything.
And they were they were ecstatic.
At one point, they even they gave gave creditto the team as a whole.
There were so many awesome people on it.
They're like, this is the best subcontractgroup we've ever seen in terms of BIM.
They've got it figured out.
And that's the model that Cole and I are.
(50:44):
We've decided years ago, we're like, that'swhat we gotta do.
We've gotta run with this.
It's not not super crazy.
It's just communicating.
Figuring out solutions with the tools that wehave and make it work for the people that care
about it.
Did anyone else hear that?
I heard cha ching.
I wish I I could it that fed up,
(51:06):
cost went down.
What?
What?
What?
Yeah.
So I'll tell you, there's a lot of great VDCBIM groups out there.
I could name off a 100 of them, like not thatmany, but a lot.
Awesome, awesome BIM companies out there.
Nothing bad to say about any of them.
We could recommend a ton of them on our end.
We're not gonna go out there and compete withthese big BIM companies.
(51:27):
You know, from a scalability standpoint, yougot the VECs and others who have hundreds of
people around the world.
That's not our forte.
We will model, and we do.
We do a really exceptional job at it.
But our goal is to say, we want to come in hereand help you understand your process.
Where does BIM need to be improved?
Where do the right people need to be in theright place in the right time?
(51:48):
And we love, we love being on-site.
We love boots on the ground.
That's where the differences are made.
And I wish more people would be more apt tothat, especially in the BIM side.
You get a lot of office people who don't wantget out of the office and like working remote,
which I'm all for.
But there's something special about workingwith the supers, the project managers, being
outside with the foreman.
I mean, that's really well the work is donethere.
(52:10):
Agreed.
Agreed.
Justin, I'd love to talk longer about this, butI feel like we're coming to the end of our
episode, which means it's time for our lastquestion.
Wanna take it away?
For sure.
So, we love to ask this question.
And individually, you can you can answer, soflip a coin or whatever, paper, rock, scissors,
who goes first.
But if you could go back twenty years, whatadvice would you give yourself?
(52:34):
Twenty years ago twenty years ago, I would havebeen 14.
Thousand five.
I would have been 14.
Great.
That's great, great time.
At 14, I was telling everyone that I wanted tobe an engineer and I wanted to be an inventor.
I wanted to design things that not I don't wantto be designing things that are new.
I want to take things that are alreadyimplemented and make them better.
(52:56):
And so, I would say, if I could go back to my14 year old self, I'd say, stay true to what
you want to do.
You are going to continue to make thingsbetter.
Don't let people tell you that what you'redoing is wrong, because if you are wrong,
you'll admit to it and you'll figure it out andnot make that mistake again.
That's the advice I would give myself.
Stay true to yourself.
Nice.
Love
it.
(53:16):
About you, Jacob?
As introverted as I am, I'm recognizing nowthat I'm more of a people person than I ever
thought I was.
If I were to go back, given all that I know, bebetter at communicating, understanding where
people are at, what their needs are, being ableto comprehend the environment situations, you
know, and talk about emotional intelligence.
(53:38):
Being aware of your surroundings from apersonal and physical standpoint.
It allows you to be more apt or more capableand able to find solutions to the crazy world
that's around you.
Specifically in the construction AEC space,never ending.
And we often say there's money in chaos.
So let's find the chaos.
(54:00):
Let's solve it.
And let's be better about doing that asindividuals and as a whole.
Love that.
I couldn't agree more.
I frequently say internally here at Spot andjust anytime I'm talking to people, good
communication solves 90% of problems.
It's just it's it's as easy as that.
Yeah.
There's some technical things that need tooccur in whatever you're doing in your life.
(54:20):
But in general, if you just communicateextraordinarily well, you're gonna you're gonna
find success very easily over and over again.
So that's great advice.
To piggyback off of what Jacob just said, themoney is in chaos and communication gets rid of
the chaos.
So what's left?
So that's what we're here to try to figure outis how to streamline all these processes.
It's been a lot of fun, guys.
(54:40):
Thanks for having us.
Yeah.
No, this has been great.
We're gonna throw all your social in the shownotes and all that fun stuff, but if a listener
wanted to get ahold of you, what's the best wayfor them to do that?
Our website.
Website or LinkedIn?
You know, we're pretty active on LinkedIn.
If you wanna message me, email and everything'son there.
I mean, it's all out there.
Pretty, pretty open book.
(55:00):
Give me a phone call, text, whatever.
Hansonconsultinggroup dot org or Jacob Hansenon LinkedIn.
Awesome.
Awesome.
And is there anything else you'd like to tellthe people before we say our goodbyes?
Call us.
We want we want to we want to help you with theprocess.
Just kidding.
No.
Absolutely.
No.
Even to just talk, you know, I love to as youguys, you know, with the podcast, I'm a little
(55:21):
jealous.
It's awesome just talking with other people inin the industry, whether it's the same space.
You know, there's a lot that we can learn fromeach other.
Absolutely.
There's lot that we can learn.
I love both of your responses there, but you'dbe surprised because like, yeah, absolutely.
Call us.
Like, yeah.
Like, that's a this is the grand opportunity tosay like, hey, Let us help you with your BIM
(55:42):
projects.
We're totally here for you.
Right?
And that never happens.
Nobody ever says that we give this opportunityfor everybody, and nobody's like, oh, yeah.
By the way, I do this thing, and you shouldcall me about it.
So kudos to you for the first thing out of yourhead.
Boom.
That's where you gotta
be.
Yeah.
We we have laser scanners and equipment.
Use us.
If you have anything that you want scanned,just give us a call.
We we can we can work with you.
(56:03):
It's it's not super expensive, so
I'll have to call you when I'm building mycabin.
There you go.
If you thought I wasn't on
a call, I'd fly up there for you too.
Yeah.
Awesome.
Awesome.
Awesome.
This has been a ton of fun.
It was really great talking to you guys.
And until next time, adios.
Adios.
Thank you, gentlemen.
Adios.
Thank you.
Thanks for listening to Building Scale.
(56:23):
To help us reach even more people, please sharethis episode with a friend, colleague, or on
social media.
Remember, the three pillars of scaling abusiness are people, process, and technology.
And our mission is to help the AEC industryprotect itself by making technology easy.
So if you think your company's technologypillar could use some improvement, book a call
(56:48):
with us to see how we can help maximize your ITcybersecurity strategy.
Just go to buildingscale.net/help.
And until next time.
Keep building scale.
So before, Will, before you go, for thelisteners and for us, explain BIM one sentence
(00:06):
really simply.
BIM is building information modeling and BIM isa tool.
BIM is not an object, not
a software.
A software is not a picture.
Because, actually, we should call it a toolbelt Mhmm.
To to be a little more comprehensive.
Have you ever wondered how successfularchitecture, engineering, and construction
(00:29):
company scale their business?
Or have you ever wanted guidance on how to getmore growth, wealth, and freedom from your AEC
company?
Well, then you're in luck.
Hi.
I'm Will Forret.
And I'm Justin Nagel, and we're your podcasthosts.
We interview successful AEC business leaders tolearn how they use people, process, and
(00:49):
technology to scale their businesses.
So sit back and get ready to learn from theindustry's best.
This is building scale.
Hey, listeners.
It's Will here.
Our mission is to help the AEC industry protectitself by making technology easy.
If you've ever listened to our show, then youknow that the three pillars of scaling a
(01:12):
business are people, process, and technology.
So if you suspect technology is your weak link,then book a call with us to see where we can
help maximize your company's IT andcybersecurity strategy.
Just go to buildingscale.net/health.
Today's guests are Jacob Hansen and ColtonBrowning.
(01:32):
Jacob is the founder of Hansen ConsultingGroup, HCG, a business solutions and BIM
consulting firm serving multiple industries.
He specializes in organizational structure,program optimization, and strategic
transformation.
He's passionate about creating a more connectedand advanced built world through BIM
consulting, coordination, and modeling.
His recent work includes building BIM programsfor clients, including Taiwanese GC on the TSMC
(01:58):
AZ Fab 21 project.
Colton is a partner mechanical engineer and BIMmanager in HCG, known for leading high
performance coordination teams.
He brings deep expertise in CAD, BIMprocessing, process piping, thermal pipe stress
analysis using tools like Revit, Cesar two, andScan to BIM.
(02:19):
Colton focuses on bridging design and fieldprecision, helping teams deliver cost
effective, structurally sound solutions fromconcept to completion.
Together, Jacob and Colton are helping reshapehow construction teams leverage BIM and
leadership to drive smarter, more integratedproject delivery.
And with all those many kind words and warmregards said, gentlemen, welcome to the show.
(02:42):
Thank you.
Appreciate you having us here.
Yeah.
We're excited.
We don't we don't dive into, you know, as in wedo IT and cyber, but we're not them.
Right?
We we are not that.
We're very much not that.
And people start always saying, well, you dotechnology, so it's all the same.
It's like, it's not in any way, shape, or formthe same.
So, yeah, so this is gonna be exciting.
Before we get into all the BIM funness, tell usa little bit of your origin stories.
(03:04):
Tell us how you got into the industry and alittle bit of history about the firm.
Yeah, I'll give you a start.
You know, Hanson Consulting Group as a whole,obviously my last name Hanson, you know, I'd
started the firm a little over three years ago,but my origins in the AEC space nearly a decade
ago started in the residential side, got intoroughing and trimming homes on the electrical
(03:25):
side, you know, gave me some insight and someopportunity that really piqued my interest, led
me to where I am today.
That slowly evolved into like commercial,eventually got opportunities to get into,
thankfully enough, the semiconductor, thehigh-tech mission critical space, had the
opportunity to dive into BIM early on as fieldBIM coordinator.
(03:48):
It evolved more into BIM management, gave methe exposure to a lot of different facets of
BIM, CAD, VDC within the AEC space that I'mvery, very fortunate for.
Very thankful for a lot of the connections too.
I think I should probably say that first aboveanything else, is a lot of the relationships
that made that happen.
(04:08):
Connections are king.
Find that to be true and truer every day.
Absolutely.
You know, and that's really where we're attoday as a company.
And I think Colton would testify to this too,is, you know, we're here to build partnerships,
build these relationships with people in theindustry that are going to last for decades.
As we continue to scale, as we continue tobuild, as we continue to become more efficient
(04:30):
in our processes and operations, we've got tobe able to communicate and help each other.
Thank you.
And as a partner here, my name is ColtonBrowning.
I started I graduated from mechanicalengineering school at ASU.
Go Devils.
The Go Devils.
Go Devils.
Yeah, graduated from there a very long timeago, it feels like, over about a decade now.
(04:51):
And right out of school, I got my first job asa project manager for a roofing, commercial
roofing company, and I really got my feet wetin the construction industry at that point,
understanding how things work.
And it was cool going on two different projectsand I was fortunate being able to be the
roofing contractor or the last ones on-site.
And so, not the last ones, but the last onesbefore the dry end.
And so, we get to see how the whole structuregets to get and go into play and how the
(05:14):
different trades interact.
And so, that really piqued my interest andshowed me how the construction industry evolves
and moves throughout the project, throughoutthe sequence of that.
And that's really what made me want to get intomore of a project management stance.
And after the roofing company, I got a job atIntel and their clean rooms and I started
(05:35):
working on their machines, actually doingmaintenance on their machines.
From there, I met Jacob at a company out therethat was doing construction for those machines
and designing the layouts for the MEP systems,the electrical, the mechanical, the process
piping for the different gases going throughthe process.
So, there, we just started working together anddesigning these machines and we found that
(05:59):
together we were actually very, very successfuland we're able to take processes that were in
place and streamline them and then change teamsthat were 20 people down to three, and it was,
it was quite, quite an experience, and fromthere, we were born in the subfab.
We went our separate ways and I continued doingthat and excelling in the BIM and then going
(06:22):
into the engineering field, where I starteddoing pipe stress analysis and evolving my pipe
knowledge.
And then we came back together and we're doingit all together now and it's really cool.
To piggyback off of what Jacob just said, it'sall about the relationships, the connections
you make, and the experiences you have, andeven from that roofing trailer that, or that
(06:44):
contractor I was working for, even walking intoconstruction trailers and having that
experience of being on-site really, reallybrings in that whole envelope of experience to
the table and that's really what we want to do.
We want to give people or professionals thespace to do what they do best, give them the
ability to give themselves the oversight andthe projects that they need or that they desire
(07:07):
in order to excel and be better.
So, as you mentioned, Jacob, the the firm isnamed after you.
So, when did when did it go from the solo shopto, hey, let's let's expand this out.
Let's get partner in here.
Let's get some employees.
Let's get let's get this thing rolling.
About eighteen months ago, that processstarted.
I was, prior to that point for about two years,an independent contractor just solely on my
(07:31):
own, providing BIM consulting services for afew different entities.
Just circumstances allowed me to step out andsay, okay, what do we want to do to continue to
scale this?
As I talked with some of his trusted familymembers, friends, and other individuals who
said, hey, you know, I really want grow.
I feel like I've gained enough experience.
I'm not an expert by any stretch ofimagination.
(07:52):
I absolutely hate that word, to be honest.
But I knew enough to say there's gaps here.
And in our specific vertical at that time waswas strictly semiconductor.
And they said there's there's contractors,there's designers, there's engineers, there's
there's multiple entities, multiplestakeholders on these projects that I can see
(08:14):
the gap that they're missing in BIM and VDC.
Necessarily technical, it's not about the AI,it's not about the implementation of a variety
of tools, it's about collaboration.
It's who can I connect with?
What can I do to solve somebody else's problemsand bring the right solutions to them?
Introduce Colton at that point.
You know, we've stayed in contact for for manyyears.
(08:36):
And I called him up, said, Colton, looking atsome opportunities here across the board,
whether it's been modeling or whether it'scoordination or management setting.
Need your help.
And we were fortunate enough to land a reallyawesome project last summer where we were
involved in some electrical modeling scope atIntel.
And Colton was a huge part of that.
He brings a lot of technical experience andexpertise, and he was able to bring, come in.
(08:59):
We built a team around the two of us thatallowed us to focus on getting the scope
accomplished.
And the rest is history.
We're today and we're doing more thansemiconductor now.
We're looking at engineering.
We're looking at architecture.
We're not diversifying too much in a sense, butwe're looking at opportunities.
What can we do to bridge different, differentgaps where there are, where there are problems
(09:20):
that need solutions?
So you started originally with the concept ofBIM coordination.
So why did it change?
Was it just opportunity landed at your feet orwas there something else?
I would say it's just that.
Yeah.
It it did start with BIM coordination.
Very simply, I was stuck in the middle of asemiconductor fab.
(09:43):
I was working with the trades, electricians,and and process pipe fitters.
And we were out there.
We were taking a BIM model.
We'd sit out there with a game box, and here'sthe computer.
Here's what it should look like.
Here's your guys' ISOs.
Let's map it out according to some sitecoordinates and whatnot.
Go make it fit.
And from there, it took a little while, butover a couple months and years, said, Hey, you
(10:06):
know, there's ways to be more efficient withthis.
It allowed me to get back into the office.
We're actually probably in the office for thefirst time working with moderators directly,
which Colton was at the time.
So, Colton, you guys are doing great at yourmodeling, but here's some suggestions, here's
some input.
Come out of the field with me.
Come look at this.
Let's either let's laser scan it.
Let's get your eyes out there and say, hey,this is not constructible, where there's better
(10:29):
ways of installing this electrical conduit.
So we were able to blend the office space, thefield space, which then naturally grew into
more of the management, the VDC coordination.
And I've learned it's just a natural process.
And that opened new doors with other companies.
It opened new doors with my own consultingpractices where I could go work on other
(10:51):
projects.
As you talked about just in the beginning, Iended up at TSMC with a variety of different
companies.
A lot of it was the consulting side where Icould go in and I can implement design and BIM
practices for for general contractor.
I could go work for a subcontractor and say,Hey, this is the best way to work with this
scope, with this GC.
And it really was just kind of a naturalprocess of opportunity.
(11:12):
Right people, right places, right time.
Will, before you go, for the listeners and forus, explain BIM one sentence really simply.
BIM is building information modeling and BIM isa tool.
BIM is not an object, not a software.
A software is not a picture.
It's actually we should call it a tool belt toto be a little more comprehensive.
(11:37):
It is not a one stop fix it all solution.
Got it.
Okay.
So this tool belt helps people do what?
You want to answer that one, Colin?
This tool belt that gives you the the it's atranslation tool between the trades.
It allows duct installer to come in and be anelectrician for a moment and get into the mind
(11:59):
of the person that he's trying to coordinatewith.
A picture's worth a thousand words and that'sessentially what we're providing is a detailed
picture, but it's not, it's way more than justa picture.
You can do BIM without the picture.
BIM is a tool that allows for all thecomponents within the model to be itemized and
extracted in a way that can be fabricated.
(12:22):
So, you can essentially hit print from a BIMmodel, send it to a fab shop, and it ends up in
the field where it can be installed.
Kind of like an IKEA bed frame.
You just, A goes to A, B goes to B, and thenyou can go down the line and the coordination's
already been done.
Well, look at what, look good for what it is,building information modeling, and information
(12:43):
requires input, it requires output.
You're going to have suggestions fromarchitects, engineers, and you're going to have
concepts.
You're going to have designs.
You then create it in a three d space.
You can then extract what's Colton's talkingabout in data is cost.
You can extract schedule.
You can extract environmental.
We refer to those as BIM dimensions.
If you do a quick Google search on that, you'llsee traditionally 1D through 7D.
(13:05):
And now people are starting to add on 9D, 10D,whether it's for others.
BIM's, like I said, a tool belt of justprocess.
And it's really dictated about what you putinto it and what you wanna get out of it.
So look, anyone that's doing any type ofbuilding, whether it's commercial or even
(13:26):
residential, has some sort of phases.
Right?
And they all interact.
Right?
Ducting, electrical, right, MEP, all thathappens.
So then why don't all projects does it makesense for all projects to have BIM to have that
overhead?
Pretty broad question.
Yeah.
Go ahead, Jacob.
Pretty broad answer.
(13:46):
It all depends because BIM isn't just here's amodel, go build.
There's different degrees or levels ofdevelopment on a model.
It can be very simple as a concept.
It can be as extreme and as polar as a digitaltwin, where you have a real living, breathing
construction document in a digital space thatcould be connected to real life data according
(14:12):
to cost, according to schedule.
You could talk about a real digital twin withsensors and real world input.
Not every project is going to need that.
Some projects may require concept and thenyou're going to have everything in between.
So it really just depends on the owner.
It depends on the contractor, whether it's aPMO organization, whether it's a GC, depends on
(14:33):
the capabilities of subcontractors, and then italso depends on the capabilities of a BIM and
VDC firm.
There's so many factors, and that's probablywhat makes this industry so challenging and so
polarizing in a lot of ways.
Oh, we like polarizing because Yes.
The the that's that's where the details are.
That's this is where what we wanna extract.
Right?
Mhmm.
(14:54):
But you guys work in pretty large scaleprojects.
Right?
And so you talked about a digital twinning.
Where is it that where it stops being adiscussion?
Like, if you're not doing this, it's you're notbeing competitive.
Good question.
Cole, do have any thoughts on
that?
I'm run
(15:15):
away with the show today?
Chewing on that one.
You take it right now.
I'll follow-up on the back end.
You know, it's an interesting interestingthought.
I've run into some, some individuals.
Was up at the Reality Capture Networkconference in Boise, back in the fall.
There's a gentleman who was working doingDigital Twin for Dallas Fort Worth, terminal,
(15:36):
terminal expansions.
And it was really fascinating On their project,they implemented RealityCapture.
They were out there doing the LiDAR scans.
They were implementing, like sensors,occupation sensors, where they could track
people coming and going through the terminal.
And they incorporated all this data into thesereal living models and allowed them to
(15:58):
understand and visualize the space in a moreeffective way.
In terms of layout, in terms of operation, interms of maintenance, It gave them a more
holistic approach towards the project as awhole.
Now there's other projects.
For example, TSMC, a little bit differentapproach.
You know, they have these big fabrications,these fabs, and we know exactly what's going to
(16:19):
go into them.
There's going be tool sets based off ofmanufacturing, which I won't speak to
manufacturing at all, not my wheelhouse, not myexperience, but a lot of that is what
predetermines the implementation, engineeringdesign, how the building's laid out.
And so they're probably not going to go as faras a DFW building because they already have in
their minds what they want to manufacture.
(16:41):
It then allows you to start this roadmap of,okay, we know where we want to get.
This is where we are.
We can weed out a lot of the extras.
We really only need to understand from a VDCstandpoint, our MEP systems are going to
collaborate.
What space management do we have?
Where can we utilize and be more efficient?
Where can we value engineer material out?
(17:01):
They're growing into some of the costs andschedule, but it's not quite there.
Like it may be on some other projects, which wedon't have a lot of experience in these, but
you're talking about like high rises and you'retalking about k through 12, you're talking
about hospitals or healthcare.
A lot of those projects are really, reallyinvolved in in the cost and schedule aspects of
BIM.
(17:22):
Whereas, semiconductor and others may not be atthis point.
So, because I'm gonna really really try here.
Obviously, this makes sense when you gotprobably billion dollar plus projects.
Does it make sense on a 20,000,000?
Like, especially at the level that you guys areworking at.
Does it really make sense at a 20,000,000, at a$5,000,000 project, million dollar project?
(17:43):
Or a tiny house?
I'm you know,
these are
all deep questions.
We get this all the time where people alwayssay, like, Tim seems it seems like a lot.
It seems like a lot for a project, but therehas to be these thresholds of like, oh, if
you're not doing this, you're totally leavingmoney on the table.
Like, it just it just becomes a simple businessdiscussion compared to any technical, any
(18:05):
process.
Well, we are doing a small project right now.
We're doing about a 2,400 square foot RV officespace, And we are using BIM.
We're not sinking a ton of money into it, butyeah, we've created concepts for it.
And we're working with architects.
We're working with engineers now to create someconstruction documents.
And it's definitely not a $10,000,000 project,maybe a couple $100,000 project.
(18:26):
But we Wow.
We use it for what needs to be used.
We really try to focus on on what matters andweed out anything that doesn't.
We get into a subcontractor who's doing a$4,050,000,000 dollar scope at semiconductor.
Absolutely.
We're gonna be a lot more involved in in theprocess and the tools and the technology we're
using and the implementation way more so thanwe would be on this little office space.
(18:50):
Mhmm.
So to answer your question, Will, yes, it canbe used on every project.
Just depends on to what degree it needs to beused and how much the owner shows the interest
in it and is willing to pay for that.
And to piggyback off of that, I agree witheverything Jacob has said.
What I've seen about projects is it alwayscomes down to what the owner needs.
If they want it to move fast, they want toavoid issues, if they want to get through the
(19:13):
permitting process, the red tape, before theconstruction happens, then use BIM, use our
design services to get you through that processso that you identify all the pinch points
before they even happen.
It gets to a point where you have a bunch ofcontractors on-site, want to get this done
quick, and so they rely on one coordinatinghead to make sure that that goes through.
So, that's really where BIM, the coordinationprocess of BIM, plays into the whole
(19:37):
construction process.
Now, for tiny homes or for even singleresidential homes, it doesn't need to be BIM'd?
The answer is no, it doesn't absolutely need tobe BIM'd, but it does have its value.
It holds its value in the cost analysis ifyou're gonna take that same design and apply it
in other places, like if you're doing aneighborhood or even a condo and you're using
(20:01):
that same concept across in different parts ofthe site, dimming would be very, very
beneficial.
But if you're just doing one of them and youhave maybe one electrician, one plumber and one
duct guy out there doing their job, they'repretty good at coordinating with each other and
they know where they're supposed to go.
The reality of them being, being in eachother's space is very limited.
So, there might not be a purpose for that.
(20:21):
It could be handled by a more traditionalproject manager or coordinator.
And I've heard it enough too.
You know, you talk about some of the smallscale things.
If you're scaling your product or your service,it definitely makes more sense than a one off.
But if you look at modular, you look at tinyhomes, you look at companies like Boxabl and
others who are building thousands of thesethings, they've absolutely bimmed their
(20:44):
product.
Guarantee you.
They've engineered it, they've designed it,they've conceptualized it in three d spaces.
They understand unit rates, they understandcosts.
They understand everything that goes into theirproduct.
And BIM as building information model, a toolbelt has allowed them to be more efficient in
that product development and marketing andsales and everything that goes into it.
(21:05):
Take that design, you copy paste it otherplaces, you can print it off and have it
shipped.
You can drop ship buildings.
It's essentially how that works.
So, so to be clear, me building my one cabin upin Payson, maybe not, will drop shipping, you
know, 50,000 homes or, you know, tiny homes,yeah, probably you should probably have BIM.
(21:27):
Correct.
I I would agree so.
Yeah.
Now, Justin, if you wanna build your littlecabin up there, you know, if the price is
right, we could always say, Hey, let's let'screate a three d model for you.
We'll go scan the site, make sure it fits, makesure you don't have to demo any trees or
nothing.
Know,
we'll make it
it.
I love the sales.
So one, one big question, we always have islike, how do you get buy in from the people,
the boots on the ground?
So that not necessarily somebody in the office,but how do you get people buy in from a
(21:50):
superintendent level?
Like, technology isn't always the first thingthey think of is like, this is going to be
beneficial for my job site.
So how do you get them to buy in?
That's that's that's been a pain point in thein the past, but it's also been something that
both Jacob and I are passionate about is thatcommunication and bringing people to the table.
When we first started, or I'll I'll use myexperience as a modeler at the same company,
(22:13):
we, it was, we were starting that BIMdepartment and the field kind of, the field
technicians, the installers, they kind of feltlike the BIM team was taking the creativity
away from their, from their job.
And so, it was more of a mindset shift that hadto take place.
Me coming in there doing doing the modeling,thought I was telling them what they I wanted
(22:34):
them to do and they had to follow it.
And that that is absolutely not true.
I'm not an installer.
I'm I manipulate the software, I'm able to useit to get you the results that you're looking
for in order to streamline the process.
So, need, I need your buy in, I need your, Ineed your words, I need, I need your
experience, otherwise this won't work.
So, actually, it takes time, you sit down withthem, you have these conversations, and no one
(23:00):
wants to waste time, so ten minutes down theline they see that this conversation has to
take place, that you are going to findsolutions, and so they, they start presenting
their solutions, and then as time goes on, youget out in the field, they actually implement
what we talked about in the meeting, and thenit really closes that loop.
It makes them feel like they were part of thatwhole process, they, they manage the entire
(23:21):
coordination effort.
So, that's how I've been able to get the buyin, is by just having those conversations.
And then on back end as well, the BIM helps youunderstand where problems went wrong in the
install process.
You can identify your issues with yourinstalling and also things that are costing a
little bit more.
(23:42):
So, that can also cause issues, but, you know,it does streamline the process quite a bit.
And I So,
let me pause there for a second.
Yeah.
Would this so, traditionally so, let's talkabout sources of truth for a second.
Because I think is what BIM helps solve.
Would you would you agree?
Yeah.
Love what you just said there.
(24:03):
That's great.
Sources of truth.
Because because part of the communication partof the problem is communication, especially
live on the field versus architect versusengineer.
Right?
Mhmm.
And when updates happen to the plans.
Yes.
And the timeliness of plan updates.
(24:24):
And then, obviously, what everyone hates tosome degree or another is rework.
Right?
Prevent preventing some sort of rework.
How much does this consolidate to a singlesource of truth?
Is it the single source of truth, or is itchanging it from, like, 20 sources of truth to
just maybe a handful?
We want it to be the single source of truth.
(24:45):
Every project, I know I keep sounding probablysound like broken record here.
Every project's different.
It all depends on the accountability and theintegrity of the project stakeholders
contractually.
How it's written into contracts or some substhat may or may not have varying degrees of BIM
involvement.
Some may say, Hey, this is our deliverable.
(25:06):
This is X, Y, Z.
This is what we're gonna do.
We're not gonna do anything beyond that or lessthan that.
Or you may have another subcontractor who maybedoes have a degree of of involvement a little
higher.
A good example of this, I'll go back to thisone at TSMC.
It has some work with JB Henderson, wonderfulcontractor, process contractor, was able to
(25:26):
work with them and and their and their BIMgroup detailed CAD services and support them
from a VDC aspect and and help manage theirproject.
It was really fascinating to work on thatproject with countless number of other trades
where what I just said in terms of varyingdegrees of involvement differed, like, vastly.
(25:46):
It was crazy.
But JB Henderson, we we allowed them to stickto a plan.
We went from A through Z, and we said, this iswhat our deliverable is going to be.
Get a little technical.
We're going say we're going do an LOD 400model.
It's going to be constructible.
We want to do prefabrication to some degree.
We want shop drawings.
We want ISOs.
(26:07):
We want to be able to build everything, bringit on-site, weld it all up, sign it off, be
done, get it commissioned and all.
So with that understanding, we were able tostart with a process from the very, very
beginning.
Okay.
What do we need to put into our models?
Who's going to do it?
How's it going be done?
We need to get buy off from the generalcontractor.
We need to get buy off from other entities.
(26:28):
We call that an IFC process or an IFF process,this issue for fabrication.
So we walk through this path with them.
And at the very end, when you start installingand then you realize somebody's in my space or
this is not gonna fit here or we need to find anew location, We can have all this
documentation all the way back to the beginningand say, hey, this is what the plan was.
(26:50):
What happened?
Nine times out of 10, we were not at fault.
I could probably even say 9.9 out of 10, wewere not at fault.
It was always somebody else who either did nothave a clear plan.
They didn't use models for what they wereintended for.
They were not coordinating with other people inproject coordination space.
(27:11):
And it gave us the credibility to say, you'rewrong.
You need to move.
Rip your content out.
You're in our space and you're at cost.
And if you don't and we have to move, well,here's a change order.
Move on.
Boy.
Yeah.
So that's where, when we start talking aboutcontracts and you start talking about this, you
know, you really get into the details of that.
(27:32):
It is really, really important on these megaprojects that you are very accountable to it
because I think that'll give what gives BIM abad rap in these in these projects is when
there's no accountability, it does become acost overrun.
It does become obnoxious.
People hate it.
It's spent.
It's costing them millions of dollars andthey're like, what are we getting out of it?
We're not solving our problems because they'renot being efficient.
(27:56):
Well, that's what Cole and I want to do.
We want to say, hey, let's cut out all thiscrap.
Let's focus on what really matters.
Everybody's got their own opinion about it.
I think everybody's opinion is true to adegree.
So let's figure out what works best foreverybody as a whole and solve these issues.
Everybody's got an opinion, and they allstinks.
I think it's worth
it.
Yeah.
(28:17):
You mentioned a term LOD.
Can you for the people out there that arelistening, what does LOD mean?
And can you give sort of different levels?
Because, I mean, it's everything from 100 to600, I think, and then one d to 40, 5D, 60.
You talked about 90 even.
There's two things there.
You have BIM dimensions, which is 1D throughtraditionally 70.
(28:39):
We'll leave that where it stands.
It's just different degrees of BIM andimplementation.
LOD is a level of development.
How detailed is your BIM going to be?
100 is concept, 200 is plans, traditionalplans, plan views, elevations, etc.
LOD 300 is the three d element.
You've you've got some some three d environmentwhere you can conceptualize what your project
(29:03):
is gonna look like.
It's not super detailed.
It may not be the manufacturer specs, but atleast you have something to represent it.
It's geometry.
It's space management.
LOD three fifty is correlated with materialspecifications.
It's very specific.
You can pull in cut sheets and you knowexactly.
If you look at the model and you click on anelement to say, Hey, you know what?
(29:25):
Yeah, that's EMT or that's rigid.
Or you can say that stainless steel or it'snatural gas.
OD400 is now you're saying, this is not just aconstruction model, but this can be built
according to scale.
This is can be built according to specificmeasurements.
You've included hardware, you've got nuts,bolts, accessories, everything included.
(29:47):
And that's where Colton talked about if you'rethen prefabbing.
If you're doing off-site, you can take that 400model.
You can basically send it to a fab shop andsay, hey, build this.
Put it on a truck and go bolt it onto the inthe in the fab.
And then the lastly is LOD 500, which is goingbe your ads built.
Once the project's done, you can go in and youcan dimension everything.
You can use reality capture.
(30:08):
You can do traditional hand take offs, ISOs,and then rebuild the model in the back end and
have it match exactly what's in real life.
And the great reference for this, which Itraditionally follow LOD BIM Forum.
And you can Google that and find that.
And that's generally what we follow when we'redoing bids and proposals is we're to say, we're
(30:29):
doing LOD 300 according to BIM form LOD.
And they come out with standards like everyyear, every two years.
So 400, you can build it.
Like you can literally hear all the pieces
to
hit print.
And you're saying, also, people are talkingabout 10, you know, 910.
Right?
Is that ex that's in existence?
(30:50):
D, you know, through
9D99 d, 10 d, everything.
Yep.
What the hell else do you have left?
If you've got it all, if you've got fullcontent, you've got you can literally build the
thing.
What else is what else is there above it?
You don't have go into each individually, but,like, what are big concepts of, oh, if you want
700, well, that's x.
Well, it's funny.
(31:11):
What's frustrating from our point of view isthe space that we've in the projects on.
They don't even get beyond three d.
They don't even get beyond the three d modelsbecause once you hit 40, you're talking about
schedule.
When are people tying a three d model into aschedule?
There's platforms out there.
Bentley has a great one called Syncro that doesit.
(31:31):
There's a few others where you can actually tiemodel elements into a schedule and say, hey, we
can track as this project moves on.
If your P6 or something is actually built rightand a project actually uses it, which we're
seeing less and less of in some of our spaces,unfortunately, there's some great correlation
back and forth.
And then you jump to 5D, which is going becost.
(31:52):
You can actually pull every single element outof that model, every nut, bolt, piece of
conduit, linear feet, whatever you want.
Man hours.
You can estimate it and you can build cost intoyour entire project.
When you get beyond that, you get 60environmental stuff, 70, you got operations and
maintenance.
There are some people that are there, but I'mgonna say majority of them are not.
(32:14):
Bring it back to the three d and understand whyyou're using the model in the first place.
What do you wanna get out of it?
Then let's have the conversation about where weneed to go.
Everybody wants the big, grand new stuff.
They wanna use AI.
They wanna use all these tools, but they hardlyeven know how to use a model.
Let alone know how to view it or how to extractany data
it.
So, what I just heard, and correct me if I'mwrong, what I just heard is you're talking
(32:39):
about, I think the term that I've heard beforeis TCO, total cost of ownership, and the length
of time for total cost of ownership.
Right?
There's the total cost of ownership just to thepoint of the end of the project.
There's total cost of ownership of, well, I'vedeveloped the building.
(33:00):
Right?
There's the total cost of ownership of, I'vedeveloped the building and now I'm running the
things that are inside of the inside of thebuilding.
And then there's total cost of ownership oflike the twenty year maintenance or whatnot.
Right?
Okay.
So, that's a very holistic view and I totallyunderstand why people would not be using the
more advanced ones.
(33:20):
But four d to me, sounds like the fourthdimension is time because that's to do with
scheduling.
Mhmm.
So three d the difference between three d andfour d is really are your, you know, different
crews getting in the way or not of each otherYes.
Along with along with all the equipment that,you know, goes with it.
(33:42):
And most people don't have the processes exceptfor maybe the really big contractors, like the
turners and stuff like that out there.
They probably don't have the processes in placeor the maturity to go, yeah, I have so much
process that I will not overlap, and I havecost control on top of it.
(34:03):
Because now you're controlling time, timeelements
Mhmm.
Which is super precious, but hard to control onon smaller projects.
Okay.
Well, it makes that totally makes sense to me.
Well, I like that you brought that out too,because look at look at the different
involvement.
Whether it is a turner or another generalcontractor, they're gonna have more control,
(34:23):
more oversight over that schedule as a whole,and are gonna dictate the input that goes into
it.
A subcontractor is gonna focus on their scope.
If it's an electrical contractor, they may taketheir BIM and build it into their own personal
p six and say, okay.
Here's what we have for a scope.
Cable trace can go in, duct banks are going togo in, etcetera.
But they don't care about everybody else.
So it really comes down to a project as awhole, the owner, the GC, PMO, whoever it is,
(34:48):
are they implementing BIM?
Are they implementing the models?
Are they wanting to take it as far as to put itinto the schedule?
Do they see the value in using the BIM andtying it into other facets of a project in
terms of cost and schedule?
If they're not, then when they need to becareful is to, you know, how far are they
pushing contractors or what is the expectationfor the use?
(35:08):
What is the deliverable?
Is everybody going to just do arts and craftsas Colton says?
Are they going to create pretty quick risk?
Or does the owner really want to take this BIMmodel and do they want to extract all the data
out of it?
Intel has done a great job of that.
In recent years, they use quantity surveyorslike faithful and gold and Curry and Brown and
(35:29):
others, and where they can actually go into themodel and they'll actually do takeoffs of trade
scope and say, Hey, you guys should haveinstalled X number of linear feet of conduit.
We're actually gonna, we're gonna send you acheck for what's in the model, not necessarily
what's in the field.
They're going to, they're going to, they thenprojects are leaning this way because then
(35:51):
your, your model in a sense, like your, yourdesign packages, your, IFC packages, those
that's, that's the contract document.
That's what you're building to.
So, if you're holding trades responsible to themodel and saying that's what you're going to
get billed or that's what you're going get paidon, you want it to be absolutely accurate.
And when you start, oh, sorry to cut you off,Justin,
(36:11):
if I could.
So just to piggyback off of that with the withthe experience out there in the subfab, there
it goes up.
So you first start out the architectural model,the structural model, and you find a lot of
trades that they put a beautiful little holeright in this spot where everyone wants to
transfer through that hole.
It's not big enough for all the trades, so youhave the trades fighting over it.
(36:33):
If you identify that early on in the process,you can get up the chain and they could put
more than one hole.
They could put several different pass throughsfor the traits.
So, we've actually implemented that in someprevious projects where they've added more core
holes and fireproofed it in order to add moreroom for the traits because it is a great pass
through.
So, it's a the coordination effort as a whole,it goes up and down the chain as we are, we're
(36:56):
going through the the process.
So as you were saying this, obviously you gavean example of like, well, a trade partner,
especially trade, can come in and just do, hey,we're just doing this.
So we're only focused on this and we have amodel for that.
But is the model coming from the GC or from adeveloper?
Like, what is there as this process ishappening, I assume like the GC is saying, hey,
(37:19):
this is what we're building.
These are all the trades that are involved inthis building.
We're gonna, Hey, we expect you to do yourportion of this, but wouldn't you want that
trade to use their expertise upon, Hey, like weshould be doing it X this way or that way
compared to like the, you know, there's areason why things are subcontracted out because
(37:39):
of the fact of like, well, we're not theexperts here.
We don't have the manpower to do this and wedon't necessarily know the best way to approach
plumbing or electrical or whatever it is.
So how is it built to make sure that like, oh,what you've built in this BIM model from the
top is actually the best way to do it as youpass it down the line to the trades?
Well, that's what's fascinating now more sothan ever is is contract methodology, when and
(38:05):
how people are being introduced to projects.
Some types of contractors won't get an RFPuntil after design's so far down the road.
Don't have any broken.
But also the other way is, well, how do you?
How do you get on especially on a project thisbig on take a TSMC, for example.
You can't bring in fifty, sixty subs and havethem all give input and design process.
(38:27):
Nothing will ever get done.
So there has to
that's why you were in place.
You bring them all in and then you organizethem.
Ain't that the whole thing?
I feel like there's a there's a there's a jokehere of how many engineers is to take the screw
in a light bulb.
Well, that and that's what that's what's sointeresting now more than ever is what are what
do we need to do in terms of collaboration froma cost standpoint?
Because everybody's in business, everybodywants to get paid.
(38:49):
If you're going to have 50 people come in, howmuch time is it going to take?
Do we have the right input?
Let's say one person says one thing and sixmonths down the road, they're gone and
somebody's like, who the heck made thisdecision?
It's so, so much more challenging than what yousee a face about.
But I think that's where there's, there's,there's a ton of opportunity, and especially at
(39:10):
the owner level, GC level, a lot of the EPCPMOs is what are we saying on the high level
concept side of it, you know, preconstruction?
What are we doing to understand the end goal,the deliverable?
If we know that we want a specific BIMdimension or BIM LOD at the very end, Well,
(39:31):
let's have those conversations.
Let's talk with the trades early on.
Let's talk with the engineers, architects.
Let's understand the commissioning side of it.
Let's understand all the other variables thatgo in and make sure everybody understands what
it is we're actually building and how we'regoing to do it.
The worst thing that I've ever seen on a coupleof projects, and I won't say the projects
specifically on these ones, but when you getsubcontractors involved and they get given a
(39:54):
design model and it can vary.
Sometimes they can just be given some plan setsand they can P and IDs, one lines, and say, go
build a three d model.
Or other times they can get like an LOD 200,300, where it's actually a three d design model
And then you're told to go trace it.
Okay.
Now go make it constructible based off of yourconstruction experience.
(40:17):
And everybody has a different way of doingthat.
They use different softwares in how theyauthor.
And then the goal is you bring everybody backtogether, what we call a federated model.
And you have design model, you haveconstruction models all roped into one, and you
say, let's figure it out.
You throw everything into a big pot and say,let's make it work.
When you get onto a project and not everycontractor's involved in that sometimes because
(40:42):
they contractually are not, sometimes becausethey don't have the teams to do it.
And so they oftentimes either don't do it or dothe bare minimum.
And then you have the other contractors.
Great props to people like Harder Mechanical.
I mean, awesome, awesome BIM program.
They have incredible prefabrication processes.
They do a lot of modular off-site OSM.
And it's hard for them to come in because thenthey get frustrated and they see other people.
(41:05):
It's like, these guys aren't doing anything.
How are we supposed to coordinate?
How are we supposed to stay on top of our gameand build one time?
The whole point of doing BIM is to build outonce and not have to rework, not have to rip
out, when these other guys are just stickbuilding and they're just going in there and
getting everybody's way.
And that makes the project so, so challenging.
It makes you want to just hit your head againstthe wall and say, why are we doing this?
(41:26):
And even for me as a BIM person, as a BIM BDC,I sometimes get those experiences in the
projects and it's tough because like, this isthe world I'm in it's really not going well.
So if the specialty trade doesn't have a BIMperson or a BIM team, who then builds it?
Or do we say like, I don't we're just going toavoid using you because you don't, you don't
have somebody that can actually give us inputthat is in the same language model and all
(41:51):
everything else that you just explained.
Yeah.
They have everyone
on the same playing field.
Everyone has to be at that level.
They do.
And so it all depends contractually too.
RFPs and bids.
Some of them will explicitly say, like, youneed to have a BIM program and we need proof of
that, etcetera, etcetera.
Or others may say, yeah, you will require this.
You guys figure it out.
So if you got a subcontractor who doesn't knowanything about BIM, and I've done some of these
(42:14):
too, they call you up and say, hey, can you youBIM this for us?
Can you give us these pictures?
It's like, that's really not how it works.
They've already signed a contract.
They've already got price locked in.
So there's not a lot of flexibility.
Those ones are the best to work with becausethey they have this fixed price and you have to
work inside of it.
Sometimes it works.
Sometimes it doesn't.
Mhmm.
But yeah, their responsibility is eitherbuilding a house, which is very difficult or to
(42:36):
outsource it.
Then you have a thousand different people withdifferent opinions on how, how that scope
should be done.
Oh yeah.
Yeah.
It's fun.
Really, really exciting space And acrossdifferent industries, different verticals,
differs.
Oil and gas is way, way different than it wouldbe for, like, commercial than it would be for
semiconductor data center.
Principles are generally the same.
There's typical precedents in in terms of BIMmodeling and and accountability.
(43:00):
But project types and specs and engineering, itcan vary.
What about some wars?
What about some war stories?
What are things that you've seen that shit BIMsaved the day here?
Like BIM saved this project a ton of rework ora ton of change orders?
I have one that comes to mind.
I'll jump in here before you, Jacob.
Yeah, please.
Another story from the subfab.
(43:23):
When Jacob and I were down there, we hadimplemented some laser scanning ideologies so
that we or practices so that we can actuallyget the content into the model accurately.
We had been scoped with this specialtygenerator that we, I think it was, pretty sure
it was a generator, it was just some sort ofequipment, a big piece of equipment that was
down in the depths of the bowels of the subfab,And we had to go all the way down there, seven
(43:46):
flights of stairs, deep, deep down into thedungeons of this place.
They had we had we spent a lot of time downthere.
We figured out exactly where they needed toplace it.
We could even put little stickered X's on theground where each corner is gonna have to be
put of that generator and we knew he's gonnawork exactly.
We modeled all the piping, the blowers, thediffusers, everything was exactly where it
(44:07):
needed to be.
We had it mounted to the wall, to the columns,it was beautiful.
I was very proud of this, this solution weprovided.
I got a call the day the equipment wasdelivered and they said, your model's not gonna
work.
And I said, no, it's going to work.
I know for a fact it's going to work, but didthey send the wrong generator?
They this is something different than for whatI expect.
And I said, no, it's all the same.
(44:28):
So, I went out there and I looked in the fieldand they generators on the X's, everything was
exactly where I put it and I'm like, what'sgoing on here?
Long story short, it came down that one of themain blowers that came out the top of the unit
was offset quite a bit and the installer didn'tdidn't install it the exact location that we
(44:48):
had specified and because of that all thepiping that went up out of the equipment was
different.
Everything had to change, and that would havecost the company two, three weeks of rework for
all of us to re go in there, us to re bin it,for them to reinstall it, everything would have
just been a nightmare.
I can't even put a dollar amount to that, butsince we were able to identify that the problem
(45:11):
was just that they used the wrong bolt hole,and yeah, exactly, let's slide it from here to
here and it's magically it magically works,That is what we do.
That is how we do it and there are mistakesthat are going to happen and being that person
that was able to answer that in time and nothave to have a hiccup in the whole timeline of
(45:35):
the project, it was huge.
It's a it's a big deal.
It saves lots of time and and money on the backend.
That's amazing.
That's tons and tons of saved money.
Also, not to mention, I didn't know BIM peoplewere such such athletes.
Seven flights of stairs up and down times.
Holy shit.
You stay in shape working out there in thosesemiconductor pads.
(45:55):
You have to walk multiple miles a day.
Sometimes 15 miles.
It's crazy.
If you want, I got two brief stories I canshare some some Yeah.
Please.
I got a horror story and then also a reallygood example of how and why, how and why it
works.
Do it.
Let's hear it.
The first one is, is, is kind of funny, youknow, it goes to show I'd go as far as saying
some of the ignorance or maybe the, themisconceptions about BIM.
(46:19):
We were working, it was TSMC and there was somestructural overhead racks that were carrying
some pipe and cable tray and whatnot.
And a contractor I was working for claimed thatthose racks were not installed per the BIM
model.
And so we went out there, we scanned it with alaser scanner and sure enough, you know, we
compared the point cloud against the model.
(46:40):
And yeah, they were out, they were like sixinches lower than they should have been.
And so we brought a team of thirteen, fourteenpeople together into the BIM Room, different
contractors, everybody that has some scope on arack said, Hey, here's what's going on.
And the rack installer, he's like, We don'ttrust the point cloud.
Says and and it gets better than this.
(47:00):
He's like, no.
No.
No.
We we were sure we were sure that it fits, blahblah blah.
And they took 13 people out there.
So we already have a thirty, forty minutes inan office.
They then walked 13 people out to the fab.
And so at this point, they've probably killedan hour and a half, two hours of day for that
many people to then pull out a tape measure andfind out that absolutely they were wrong.
They cut them back and say, yeah, I guessyou're right.
(47:23):
It's funny.
We have the process, the tools, technology.
Why are we not using it?
Come on.
The point cloud doesn't lie.
13 people's time.
Two hours.
I mean, it's small in terms of three years of aproject, but come on.
What an absolute waste of money.
What a waste of time.
You could have said, we've scammed this.
(47:44):
This is survey grade equipment.
I mean, the accuracy is three millimeters orless.
I mean, it's insane.
And and you're gonna say that the point cloudis wrong.
Like, come on.
Another good example on on the positive side issimilar actually, it was an Intel project,
similar to a story to Colons in a way.
But we we were working out there and there wassome distribution panels, transformer and
(48:07):
branch panels that we were trying to locate inthe space.
We're working directly with the engineer atthis point.
It was base build scope.
I should clarify, we've gone almost an hour inthis conversation.
There's two generally different scopes onsemiconductor building.
It's base build, which is going to be your coreinstall, your structure, everything goes into
it.
And then tool install, which is the equipmentmanufacturing equipment so that we go install.
(48:28):
So base build here, we're talking about largepanels.
Engineer had mapped out.
He'd given us some plan drawings and said, Hey,this is where this needs to go.
We've gone out there.
We've measured it.
It's going to fit.
So we know our clearances.
We know our equipment clearances.
We know radius is on conduit.
I mean, at this point we're using three, fourinch conduits, so pretty large radiuses.
And Cole and I were working on this one withanother, another modeler at the time.
(48:51):
And I was out there very heavily in the field.
Was like, this ain't going to fit.
I already know the radius is on these conduit.
We've had these other experiences.
And it was a little tough because we actuallyhad to go to the engineer and call them out in
a nice way and said, Hey, this isn't going tofit.
This is going to work.
And they typically don't like to hear that.
They're like, no, we've spec ed this.
This is right.
I even had our project manager and she's like,hey, you gotta careful what you say.
(49:14):
You can't just go to Intel engineer and tellthem they're wrong.
It's like, why not?
Whatever.
They're wrong.
Like, let me tell you the truth.
They're like, we we're not wrong.
We're Intel.
Yeah.
And so we we modeled it for him and we put itin that space because we had it scanned.
We're like, dude, it's not gonna fit.
And you should have seen his eyes again.
There was at this point, we were a couple ofdays into it, got a couple of engineers
(49:37):
together from Intel and from Jacobs, andthey're like, oh my gosh, you're not you did.
You're right.
So, we'd not modeled anything in any sense oftechnicality, but not super far down the road.
We'd not fabbed anything.
We've not installed anything.
Think about if we had not done that process.
They have a transformer distribution board,four inch conduit for a couple 100 feet wire.
(49:59):
If they had gone to put all that in, that wouldhave been horrible.
And what that what that proved from that momenton, we worked with that engineer super closely
for months.
He's like, I want you guys to work on all ourbase build scope, all our electrical.
We laid out everything.
We scanned it.
We bimmed it.
And we were able for months to just go in onetime, model it, install it, done.
(50:23):
Signed off.
And there were never re there was never rework.
There was never we actually shortenedschedules.
We decreased the cost on everything.
And they were they were ecstatic.
At one point, they even they gave gave creditto the team as a whole.
There were so many awesome people on it.
They're like, this is the best subcontractgroup we've ever seen in terms of BIM.
They've got it figured out.
And that's the model that Cole and I are.
(50:44):
We've decided years ago, we're like, that'swhat we gotta do.
We've gotta run with this.
It's not not super crazy.
It's just communicating.
Figuring out solutions with the tools that wehave and make it work for the people that care
about it.
Did anyone else hear that?
I heard cha ching.
I wish I I could it that fed up,
(51:06):
cost went down.
What?
What?
What?
Yeah.
So I'll tell you, there's a lot of great VDCBIM groups out there.
I could name off a 100 of them, like not thatmany, but a lot.
Awesome, awesome BIM companies out there.
Nothing bad to say about any of them.
We could recommend a ton of them on our end.
We're not gonna go out there and compete withthese big BIM companies.
(51:27):
You know, from a scalability standpoint, yougot the VECs and others who have hundreds of
people around the world.
That's not our forte.
We will model, and we do.
We do a really exceptional job at it.
But our goal is to say, we want to come in hereand help you understand your process.
Where does BIM need to be improved?
Where do the right people need to be in theright place in the right time?
(51:48):
And we love, we love being on-site.
We love boots on the ground.
That's where the differences are made.
And I wish more people would be more apt tothat, especially in the BIM side.
You get a lot of office people who don't wantget out of the office and like working remote,
which I'm all for.
But there's something special about workingwith the supers, the project managers, being
outside with the foreman.
I mean, that's really well the work is donethere.
(52:10):
Agreed.
Agreed.
Justin, I'd love to talk longer about this, butI feel like we're coming to the end of our
episode, which means it's time for our lastquestion.
Wanna take it away?
For sure.
So, we love to ask this question.
And individually, you can you can answer, soflip a coin or whatever, paper, rock, scissors,
who goes first.
But if you could go back twenty years, whatadvice would you give yourself?
(52:34):
Twenty years ago twenty years ago, I would havebeen 14.
Thousand five.
I would have been 14.
Great.
That's great, great time.
At 14, I was telling everyone that I wanted tobe an engineer and I wanted to be an inventor.
I wanted to design things that not I don't wantto be designing things that are new.
I want to take things that are alreadyimplemented and make them better.
(52:56):
And so, I would say, if I could go back to my14 year old self, I'd say, stay true to what
you want to do.
You are going to continue to make thingsbetter.
Don't let people tell you that what you'redoing is wrong, because if you are wrong,
you'll admit to it and you'll figure it out andnot make that mistake again.
That's the advice I would give myself.
Stay true to yourself.
Nice.
Love
it.
(53:16):
About you, Jacob?
As introverted as I am, I'm recognizing nowthat I'm more of a people person than I ever
thought I was.
If I were to go back, given all that I know, bebetter at communicating, understanding where
people are at, what their needs are, being ableto comprehend the environment situations, you
know, and talk about emotional intelligence.
(53:38):
Being aware of your surroundings from apersonal and physical standpoint.
It allows you to be more apt or more capableand able to find solutions to the crazy world
that's around you.
Specifically in the construction AEC space,never ending.
And we often say there's money in chaos.
So let's find the chaos.
(54:00):
Let's solve it.
And let's be better about doing that asindividuals and as a whole.
Love that.
I couldn't agree more.
I frequently say internally here at Spot andjust anytime I'm talking to people, good
communication solves 90% of problems.
It's just it's it's as easy as that.
Yeah.
There's some technical things that need tooccur in whatever you're doing in your life.
(54:20):
But in general, if you just communicateextraordinarily well, you're gonna you're gonna
find success very easily over and over again.
So that's great advice.
To piggyback off of what Jacob just said, themoney is in chaos and communication gets rid of
the chaos.
So what's left?
So that's what we're here to try to figure outis how to streamline all these processes.
It's been a lot of fun, guys.
(54:40):
Thanks for having us.
Yeah.
No, this has been great.
We're gonna throw all your social in the shownotes and all that fun stuff, but if a listener
wanted to get ahold of you, what's the best wayfor them to do that?
Our website.
Website or LinkedIn?
You know, we're pretty active on LinkedIn.
If you wanna message me, email and everything'son there.
I mean, it's all out there.
Pretty, pretty open book.
(55:00):
Give me a phone call, text, whatever.
Hansonconsultinggroup dot org or Jacob Hansenon LinkedIn.
Awesome.
Awesome.
And is there anything else you'd like to tellthe people before we say our goodbyes?
Call us.
We want we want to we want to help you with theprocess.
Just kidding.
No.
Absolutely.
No.
Even to just talk, you know, I love to as youguys, you know, with the podcast, I'm a little
(55:21):
jealous.
It's awesome just talking with other people inin the industry, whether it's the same space.
You know, there's a lot that we can learn fromeach other.
Absolutely.
There's lot that we can learn.
I love both of your responses there, but you'dbe surprised because like, yeah, absolutely.
Call us.
Like, yeah.
Like, that's a this is the grand opportunity tosay like, hey, Let us help you with your BIM
(55:42):
projects.
We're totally here for you.
Right?
And that never happens.
Nobody ever says that we give this opportunityfor everybody, and nobody's like, oh, yeah.
By the way, I do this thing, and you shouldcall me about it.
So kudos to you for the first thing out of yourhead.
Boom.
That's where you gotta
be.
Yeah.
We we have laser scanners and equipment.
Use us.
If you have anything that you want scanned,just give us a call.
We we can we can work with you.
(56:03):
It's it's not super expensive, so
I'll have to call you when I'm building mycabin.
There you go.
If you thought I wasn't on
a call, I'd fly up there for you too.
Yeah.
Awesome.
Awesome.
Awesome.
This has been a ton of fun.
It was really great talking to you guys.
And until next time, adios.
Adios.
Thank you, gentlemen.
Adios.
Thank you.
Thanks for listening to Building Scale.
(56:23):
To help us reach even more people, please sharethis episode with a friend, colleague, or on
social media.
Remember, the three pillars of scaling abusiness are people, process, and technology.
And our mission is to help the AEC industryprotect itself by making technology easy.
So if you think your company's technologypillar could use some improvement, book a call
(56:48):
with us to see how we can help maximize your ITcybersecurity strategy.
Just go to buildingscale.net/help.
And until next time.
Keep building scale.
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