From First Marathon To Desert Champion: Ryan Sandes On Risk, Resilience, And Running For Joy

We’re honoured to feature South African trail legend, Ryan “Hedgie” Sandes - a living testament to what a curious mind, unwavering discipline, and bold risk-taking can achieve. 

From lining up for his first marathon in Knysna with just three weeks of training, to winning the Gobi Ultra and becoming the first ever to conquer the Four Deserts, to his landmark Western States victory, Ryan has consistently redefined what’s possible in our sport. 

He’s faced setbacks, from glandular fever to being attacked by the locals, and emerged stronger and wiser. In our conversation, we’ll hear what truly motivates him - how racing for fun is better than racing for medals, and how important the small wins really are. 

Whether you’re an endurance athlete, business leader, or dreamer - Ryan offers strategies to help you push further, think smarter, and live more resiliently. 

Highlights:

• Try > What If?: Ryan’s core philosophy on risk, regret, and choosing action over hesitation.
• The ‘Accidental’ Marathon: Three weeks’ prep, a hilly course… and a breakout first marathon that sparked everything.
• Dream Givers: Why he treats partners as long-term collaborators, not logos - and how that saw him through the lows.
• Lesotho Lessons: A terrifying night on the mountain turns into a masterclass in empathy, context, and team resilience.
• Small Wins > Big Medals: Community runs, a K9 race with his dog, human connections that matter more than podiums.
• Becoming A Pro (The Real Playbook): Winning matters, but stories, value, and thinking like a business sustain a career.
• Joy Over Obligation: Letting go of UTMB and reigniting motivation with fresh goals like Cocodona 250.
• Inside 250 Miles: Hallucinations, micro-sleep fails, bone broth and rice - the mental and fuelling strategies that kept him moving.
• Rebuilds & Reinvention: Glandular fever and a sacrum stress fracture; ditching rigid goals to rediscover love for the sport.
• Giving Back & Legacy: From 13 Peaks to mentoring: using adventure to grow people, not just results.

Links:

Connect with Ryan on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/ryansandes/

Connect with Ryan on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Ryan.Nicholas.Sandes

Ryan Sandes Website: https://ryansandes.com/

This episode was sponsored by The Trusted Team and 4th Discipline

Episode Transcript

Ryan Sandes (00:07):
I would rather try something and fail hopelessly
than think like what if?
I didn't want to look back in40 years' time and think what
if.
I've always believed in kind ofliving every day as if it were
your loss.

Charlie Reading (00:18):
In this episode, we're honoured to
feature South African traillegend Ryan Hedgee Sands, a
living testament to what acurious mind, unwavering
discipline, and bold risk takingcan achieve.
From lining up for his firstmarathon in Nyisna with just
three weeks of training towinning the Gobi Desert Ultra
and becoming the first to everwin all four of the Desert

(00:41):
Ultras.
To his landmark Western Stakesvictory, Ryan has consistently
redefined what's possible in thesport of ultrarunning.
He's faced setbacks fromglandular fever to being
attacked by the locals andemerged stronger and wiser.
In our conversation, we'll hearwhat truly motivates him: how
racing for fun is better thanracing for medals, and how

(01:04):
important the small wins reallyare.
Whether you're an enduranceathlete, a business leader, or a
dreamer, a term that Ryanhimself loves to use, Ryan
offers strategies to help youpush further, think smarter, and
live more resiliently.
So let's dive into the episodewith the amazing Ryan Sands.

(01:26):
Do you know what?
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If you're enjoying Claire and Ibringing you amazing guests,

(01:49):
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it our mission, along with theteam that supports us, to

(02:09):
continue to improve this podcastevery week.
So thank you so much for yoursupport and for being a part of
the business of endurancecommunity.
Let's dive in.
So, Ryan, welcome to theBusiness of Endurance Podcast.
I am really looking forward tochatting to you.
All things running, plenty ofSouth Africa and some loads of

(02:31):
other stuff too, I suspect.
And I'd really love to kickthings off with how you started
running because you weren'tactually a runner as when you
were at school.
That wasn't your primary sport,was it?
And you sort of fell intorunning almost as an excuse to
drink beer, I think, which is abrilliant way of falling into
running.
So tell us a bit about thatfirst marathon that you did in

(02:52):
Nysen.
How did it all happen and howdid you do compared to how you
and your mates expected you todo?

Ryan Sandes (02:59):
Yes, hi Charlie and Claire.
Really cool to be chatting toyou.
Yeah, as you mentioned, I guessit's fair to say I got into
running by accident or stumbledupon running.
It was my last year atuniversity.
I was studying honours and Ihad a whole bunch of friends
going up to run an out-of-townmarathon, but it also was quite

(03:19):
a big kind of party weekend.
And I'd been up there a coupleof times just for the party.
But I thought, seeing that Iwas in my final year of studies
and doing my honors, that Ineeded to be a little bit more
responsible and at least have agood excuse to go up and have a
party.
So I decided to join them andthey were running the half
marathon.
Unfortunately or fortunatelyfor me, I left entering until I

(03:42):
think it was like three or fourweeks before the race and
actually discovered that thehalf marathon entries had
closed, but there were still acouple of full marathon entries.
So I guess being a student andpretty like young and naive, I
thought half marathon, marathonkind of same thing.
And so I entered the themarathon.
And yeah, I mean, I think I hadjust over three weeks of of

(04:05):
training to to yeah, kind oftime left to actually train for
the marathon.
And yeah, didn't train much forit.
Lined up at the at the startline.
And I guess to my surprise andmy mates from Varsity's
surprise, I actually finishedthe the marathon and really
enjoyed it.
And I think for me it was justkind of the feeling of of

(04:26):
setting yourself a goal that youdidn't know if you could
actually achieve, and actuallygoing out there and achieving
it, and just that feeling offulfillment of actually crossing
the the line, just kind of itwas out there running the NISN
marathon, that the running bugbit.
And I think it was more thanjust running, as I mentioned, it
was about that that feeling offulfillment.
And the Nigesner Marathon, it'sa kind of classified as as a

(04:50):
road marathon, but I would say agood kind of 60-70% of it is on
kind of forest road.
So I definitely, yeah, kind offrom the start of my career
gravitated towards more the thetrails and yeah, the kind of the
kind of out there adventures.

Charlie Reading (05:07):
I mean, it's it's a beautiful part of South
Africa, isn't it?
I think I'm right in sayingit's renowned for its oysters
and it's a it's a it's a reallybeautiful place on the garden
roof.
But what what time did you do?
I mean, how did how did thatmarathon go?
But anyway, three weeks oftraining.
I think you were playing rugbybefore that, weren't you?
But but no proper run training.
So how did it go?
Did you hit the wall and it wasit was a horrible meltdown, or

(05:28):
did it just go remarkably well?

Ryan Sandes (05:30):
Yeah, I mean GC was actually quite crazy to to
think back.
It was like yeah, just justover 20 years ago.
So it was quite a while.
So to actually, yeah, I'm justtrying to trying to think now.
Like I remember it it wentpretty well up until like 30ks,
and I definitely struggled thelast 10 or 12 kilometers.
Um being out on like the forestroads, it was quite a hilly and

(05:50):
and mountainous or quite ahilly marathon.
I I mean I think there's six orseven hundred meters of
elevation gain over the the fulldistance, or maybe it's closer
to to a thousand meters.
So by marathon standards, it'sit's it's quite hilly.
So I mean I felt really goodthe first 20, 30 Ks, and then
definitely hit the wall.
But I mean, I think that isnormal probably for a for a

(06:12):
marathon generally, kind ofwhether you're well trained or
or not.
I guess the final 10 kilometersor so is is tough.
Timing-wise, I mean I've got itwas about between three hours
and 15 minutes and three hoursand 20 minutes.
So I mean, I guess it was wasfairly a decent time for that

(06:33):
type of marathon.
But yeah, like I said, I Ithink just kind of going into it
with no real expectations, justkind of wanting to finish it.
Yeah, I mean, I I think I justsaw it as this as this cool kind
of adventure.
But I guess having said saidall of that, I've always been a
really competitive person.
I mean, I played a lot of rugbyat at school and was always

(06:55):
very competitive with withrugby.
And I guess whatever I do, Imean, it's not for me like about
beating someone else.
It's about kind of being thebest I can be and just kind of
getting the best out of myselfin the in the situation.

Charlie Reading (07:08):
I think that's incredible.
I think there'll be a lot ofpeople listening to this going,
you put three weeks, okay, youwere playing, you were running
on a rugby field, but you putthree weeks of run training in,
and on a hilly marathon, youcome out somewhere between 3.15
and 3.9.
I mean, that's just it is aphenomenal sort of baptism of
fire to to get into intorunning.
And and then I believe the nextstep, your first ultra, was the

(07:31):
Gobi Desert.
So tell us a bit about whatmade you sign up for that, what
was your preparation for thatlike, and how did the Gobi
Desert run play out?

Ryan Sandes (07:41):
Yeah, I guess so.
After the Nyasner Marathoncoming back to Cape Town, I was
living on the back side of TableMountain in a in a town called
Haupt Bear.
And I joined the local runningclub there, and I mean this was
back in 2006, and I mean trailrunning was was very new then as

(08:02):
a sport, but a lot of the therunners in in the club did a lot
of their running in in themountains, being on the back
slopes of of Table Mountain.
So very quickly joining thelocal running club or the Hyper
Harriers, I started joining someof the runners for runs on the
trails and just absolutely lovedit.
And from there entered a coupleof trail races.

(08:24):
And when I say trail races, Ithink there were like three or
four trail races in Cape Town.
So I ran like two of them andjust really loved the
experience.
And then I remember it was oneone Sunday afternoon.
I was I was googling extremetrail races, and I popped the
Four Deserts website.
Um, I was actually at the timereading Dean Connaz's book,

(08:45):
Ultramarathon Man.
He was a famous or is a famousultramarathon runner, I think
like kind of one of the pioneersof the sport.
And I was reading his book atthe time and I popped the Four
Deserts website and I saw he wasactually running the series at
the time.
So I thought this would be anan amazing opportunity to do
something completely out there.
What a cool adventure it itwould be.

(09:07):
So I entered the Gobi Desertrace.
To be honest, I actually gotthings a bit wrong.
I thought the deposit wasactually the full entry fee.
So very quickly realized Ididn't have the funds, so I had
to go to my dad for aninterest-free loan, which he
luckily gave me.
And then, secondly, actuallyhad to figure out where the Gobi
Desert was.
Obviously, with Google, thatwas quite easy to find out.

(09:29):
And I obviously realized thatit was in China.
And that was about six monthsout from the race.
I guess from that pointonwards, unlike the NIS the
marathon, I did put in a lot oftraining, did a lot of research,
and and I mean took the race asseriously as possible.
But it was was pretty toughtraining for the event.
I just started working in thecorporate world.

(09:52):
So yeah, trying to fit in areally busy job and train for
something like this.
And also I just moved into aplace on my own side, moved out
of my my parents' house.
So yeah, it was there was a lotof lot of change.
I remember once or twice Iactually running on Table
Mountain.
I I phoned my mom and was like,please, can you can you come

(10:12):
fetch me up?
I fetch uh pick me up.
I just can't run anotheranother kilometer.
So it was was tough.
I mean, I think literally a lotof the the evenings I would
just live off a microwavepopcorn, which was just the
easiest thing to do.
I was so tired after work andtraining.
But like I said, I put a lot ofeffort into it and and did
quite a bit of research.
So went into the race.

(10:35):
I mean, I was I was confident Icould get a good result.
To be honest, running the GobiDesert Race, it was a
250-kilometer race,self-supported, so you had to
carry everything that you thatyou needed to take with you for
the full seven days, except forwater, rations of water that the
race would give you.
And then also they theyprovided like a tent.

(10:56):
But apart from that, you had tocarry all your own stuff.
I mentioned it was over sevendays, six stages.
Most of the the stages wereabout 40 kilometers long, and
then on the the long stage wasjust over 80 kilometers.
I was just training for forthat and preparing was was quite
a challenge.
I mean that the longest raceI'd run up until then was a 42

(11:19):
kilometer road marathon, or Ithink it was a 36 kilometer
trail race.
So I was definitely steppinginto the unknown, but I mean I
was confident that I'd I'd prepreally well.
I was naturally a competitiveperson, and I think I was
secretly hoping for like a top20 or top 30.
And yeah, I remember lining upat the start of the race, just
being so nervous, just thinkinglike, what the hell have I got

(11:41):
myself into?
I mean, it was an expensiverace to get to train for.
I mean, the entry fee was threethree thousand dollars or three
and a half thousand dollars.
I mean, I was kind of havingvisions of of kind of I could
have spent three three months ona kind of island with my mates
instead of doing doing this.
But um, so it was quitedaunting standing on that that

(12:03):
start line.
But yeah, after the the startgun went, everything just seemed
to to click.
I really just focused on onrunning my own race.
And I mean, I remember comingon that first stage, coming into
into the final aid station, andthe aid station person said
you're in second position.
And I was like, looked at themshocked.
I couldn't believe it that Iwas in second position.

(12:25):
And they're like, Yeah, the guyleading the race is just in
front of you.
And I mean, that was like thefirst time I actually kind of
went into race mode andbasically just tried to run as
fast as I could until the finishline.
And I think with like three orfour K's to go past the guy
leading the race and won thatthat that first stage.
And I think for me, like whatwas going through my mind, I

(12:46):
just said like like all I wantedto do was like win one stage.
I mean, I said to myself, like,if I've got to walk the rest of
the stage, it's like who cares?
It's it's about kind of livingfor the moment, and I'd be the
first South African to to win astage.
So I mean, yeah, it was I wasreally chuffed and stoked with
myself to to win that firststage.
Um, and then yeah, I guessgoing into the rest of the race,

(13:08):
woke up that second morningfeeling very stiff and sore and
thinking, like, what have I whathave I done?
Um, again, it's been cool tosee how the sport has progressed
because back then it was a lotmore kind of older people that
that were doing the sport.
So I know like a lot of peopleare thinking, like, what's this
like young stuff done?
I mean, he's gonna crash andburn, like his race is over.

(13:29):
So I mean, I had that in the inthe back of my mind, but yeah,
I started day two, the secondstage, and again ran
conservatively, and then againkind of coming into the final
aid station, found myselfleading the the race and won the
second stage and the the restof the remaining stages and and
kind of won the the race again.

(13:50):
It was it was a big surprisefor for me and I think most of
the people at the the race, butyeah, I think it was that race
that the Gobi Desert race thatdefinitely kind of changed my
trajectory in life.
I mean, I studied quantitysurveying at the University of
Cape Town and was working for aproperty development company,
and but I think it was on thebus on on the way back to the

(14:14):
hotel from the the final stageof the Gobi Desert Race that I
was thinking, like, she'simagine I could do this on a on
a kind of full-time scale.
I mean, this is so much coolerrunning around the world than
kind of yeah, working for a bigproperty development company,
counting toilets, or having aboss shout at you.
So it yeah, it got the GobiDesert race, kind of got my cogs

(14:36):
turning in my brain.
I was very lucky to have metDean Conazis there, picked his
brain for it for a lot ofadvice.
And I think it was yeah, aboutsix months after the Gobi Desert
race that I decided to kind oftake the plunge and and try and
run fully professionally.
I mean, at the time when I whenI did make that decision, I
remember the one day kind ofgoing to my parents' house and

(15:00):
going to speak to my dad andtelling him that um I'm gonna
quit my job and and become aprofessional runner.
I remember his whole face justkind of dropping.
He was like my number onesupporter and my biggest fan,
but he kind of I know we weregoing into like a big recession
at at the time and it was like,don't you think it's a good idea
just to keep your job?
And I was like, no, this iswhat I what I want to do.

(15:21):
And I kind of took the took achance, and luckily it it worked
out for me.

Claire Fudge (15:26):
It's just so amazing to hear you talk about
you know running the marathon inNeisner and then a couple of
trail runs, and there you arewinning, you know, the whole of
that that that desert ultra isjust amazing.
You talked about having youknow this job before you did the
race, but the day after ormaybe that evening, when you'd
won and you'd you'd also uhbeaten Dean as well.

(15:46):
What actually changed in termsof inside to make you make that
decision that this was going tobe your profession?
What was it that kind of reallyclicked inside?

Ryan Sandes (15:56):
Yeah, I mean I think it's a really good, good
question.
And I think it wasn't like Imean, I think it was more like a
subconscious decision.
I mean, even to go and run thethe Gobi Desert race, I mean, in
in many ways, I felt like kindof going and working in in in
the corporate world almost likea little bit claustrophobic.
Um just I've always have beenquite a free spirit.

(16:19):
Um and I've always believed inkind of living every day as if
it were your last.
So I mean, I think finishingthe Gobi Desert, I thought like
this could be this incredibleopportunity to to do something
completely different.
And I think for me, it's like Iwould rather try something and
fail hopelessly than think likewhat if.
So I mean I I think thedecision to to kind of go from

(16:41):
the Gobi develop, I mean, I'vechased this this this this dream
of becoming a professionaltrail runner when I mean I think
there were only a handful oftrail runners at the at the the
time, I think it was purely justthat like I didn't want to look
look back in 40 years' time andthink what if.
And to, yeah, I guess to toturn that into a reality was

(17:03):
really difficult and challengingat times and quite frustrating.
I mean, the the sport is Imean, it is a very niche sport.
It's obviously got a lot moretraction and become more
mainstream, but to actually findsponsors and to actually do it
fully professional was yeah, itwas was very challenging.
And I mean, the first when Iactually quit my my job, I knew

(17:25):
I had like six months of savingsto kind of get by, but I wasn't
actually making enough moneyoff running to actually survive.
So yeah, I guess it was wasquite quite risky.
But like I said, I think forme, Ian Conazis was really
influential in terms of seeingthat, just seeing someone else
actually having done it.

(17:46):
But also, I remember it wasn'tthe the Gobi Desert Race, it was
the next race I did with him.
It was the Sahara Desert Race,which was later that that year,
that after I'd won that, I wasjust really trying to kind of
soak up as much knowledge fromfrom Dean as possible.
And he said something to me,it's like winning races is
great, but it's not necessarilygoing to get you sponsors.

(18:08):
And I think that's always stuckwith with me in terms of, yeah,
for sure, being a professionalathlete is it's important to to
win and to do well.
And I mean, if I hadn't of oneand had had success along the
way, I probably wouldn't besitting here now.
But I think also at the sametime, it it was so important in
those early years to just kindof think outside the box and

(18:31):
almost see myself as a business.
I guess in many ways it waslike I bet guess the best way to
describe because trail runningwas such a new sport.
It was like kind of applyingfor a job, but you didn't know
what the job description was.
I mean, essentially I had tomake my my own.
So I mean, that that was quitequite daunting, but at that at

(18:51):
the same time, I think for me,it really like made me feel
alive and and I really felt likeI was in control of my my own
destiny.

Claire Fudge (18:59):
What mistakes do you think?
Like obviously, the as yousaid, like the ultra running has
really changed since when youwhen you first won that ultra
and made that decision.
What advice would you givesomeone new making that decision
right now?
Like, is there anything thatyou would have done differently
in terms of you starting out inthat?

Ryan Sandes (19:16):
Yeah, I mean it's it's interesting.
I almost feel like now becausethe the the the sport is so much
more professional.
I mean, I find it's almostgetting like harder and harder
for up-and-coming athletes to dowell.
So I think for for me theimportant thing is to just
really focus on yourself andkind of tell your your story and
kind of do what you want to do,and then find like the partners

(19:40):
that that kind of fits what youwant to do.
Don't kind of change whatyou're doing to like tie into a
partner.
Um, I think it's those kind ofunique human stories that are
that are really important andkind of finding what what makes
you different, not justnecessarily follow following
what what everyone else isdoing.

(20:00):
Yeah, I mean, I also just thinkkind of my advice would just be
choose your team around youcarefully.
I mean, I think having theright support team is so
important.
And then again, just going backto to partners.
I think, I mean, I've noticedin the last couple of years with
the sport getting moreprofessional, that there's a lot
more kind of movement betweenpartnerships and relationships

(20:21):
kind of chop and change thewhole time.
Where I found in in my careerwhere I've had I've had a number
of highs, but I've also had alot of lows that really kind of
looking after those partnershipshave really helped me through
the tough times and kind ofknowing that those partners have
had my back.
So I mean, I think that that'salso really important, like just

(20:42):
really nurturing those thoserelationships and and growing
together.

Charlie Reading (20:45):
And you've got a really interesting name for
your sponsors or partners,haven't you?
Which is not a term I'd heardbefore.
So share that with people.

Ryan Sandes (20:53):
Yeah, I mean, I always I call my my partners
dream givers.
And yeah, I mean, I guess, as Isaid, not not a guess.
I mean, I wouldn't be sittinghere right now if it if it
wasn't for the incredible kindof dream givers I've had along
the the way.
Um and yeah, I mean a a lot ofmy my partners I've had right

(21:13):
from from the the the start.
So I mean I'm really, reallyproud of that and also grateful
for them to yeah, havingsupported me through thick and
thin.

Charlie Reading (21:22):
Brilliant.
And so so you mentioned there,you've mentioned the Gobi win,
you've mentioned the Sahara win.
I think I'm right in sayingyou're still the only person
that's won all four of theDesert Ultras.
Which one of those do you thinkstands out as the most special
for you in your mind and andwhy?

Ryan Sandes (21:39):
I guess definitely I would say that the first being
the Gobi Desert, just becauseto be honest, I remember like
two or three weeks out tellingmyself that like once I'm done
with the Gobi Desert, I wasgonna throw my running shoes
away and start spending moretime with my mates again and
kind of have a few few morebeers and yeah, just just be a

(22:01):
little bit more normal.
And I think it, yeah, it wasobviously as soon as I'd I'd
finished the Gobi Desert race,like I mentioned, it was just
surreal feeling, but also thislike feeling of emptiness was
like what next?
I'd invested like six months,I'd poured my heart and soul
into it, and all of a sudden itwas like what what what next?
And I mean, as uh as it's Imentioned, I was lucky after

(22:23):
after Gobi to pick up a few afew sponsors and to do the next
race in in the series.
But I mean, going going back toit, yeah, for sure, definitely
I'd have to say that the Gobi DeDesert and it was definitely
kind of out there that uhchanged my trajectory in in
life.

Charlie Reading (22:40):
Brilliant.
And I've listened to a fewother podcasts where you've been
on, and I haven't heard youtalk really in any detail about
you winning the Western States.
Now, qualifying for the WesternStates is the pinnacle of many
people's ultra-running career,but to go out and win it is just
incredible.
So tell us a bit about what itmeant to you to get to race the

(23:01):
Western States and then to winit, and how did that race play
out?
Because I don't really knowthat story.

Ryan Sandes (23:06):
Yeah, so obviously the the Western States Hundred
Mile is the the original 100miler.
So there's there's a lot ofprestige, a lot of a lot of
history.
Actually, the before I ran thethe Western States Hundred Mile,
my first 100 Mile was the theLeadville 100 Mile, which is
also another well-known 100miler in in the US.
And I ran the Leadville HundredMile in 2020 and won that.

(23:28):
And then in 2012, I came andran the the Western States
Hundred Mile.
And I was I was second thatyear, but both Timothy Olson,
who won, and myself went wentunder the course record.
So to be honest, I thought I'dcome back the the following year
and have a good shot at atwinning the Western States
Hundred Mile, but that didn'thappen.

(23:48):
I think a few weeks out fromtraveling from Cape Town to the
US, I sprained my ankle badly,tore some ligaments.
I didn't get to to run it in2013, and then yeah, there was
there was a few years of like Imean, I think I came fourth and
then yeah, I was fourth, andthen I think it was ninth or

(24:09):
something, and then so it wasn'tthere weren't quite the
performances I hoped for forthat.
And then I came back in in in2017 and and won it.
And I mean for me just that thewhole story had been a couple
of years like building up toWestern states.
And when I did finally win it,my wife was there, my my mom was
was was there, our newborn sonwas there.

(24:30):
So I mean it was a reallyspecial day out and just a
really memorable day.
But for me, it was more justthe the build-up, like kind of
the highs and lows along theway.
Um as I mentioned, I sprainedmy ankle for one year, so I
couldn't race it.
Actually, one of the years, acouple of days out, I got food
poisoning, couldn't line up.
So yeah, it was quite a quite aroller coaster to to get there.

(24:52):
And then also a really famousSouth African runner, Bruce
Fordyce, he actually signed abook for me way back in like
2011, and he wrote in the in thein the book to a future Western
States champion.
So that had always stuck in inmy mind, and I really look up to
to Bruce Fordyce and reallywanted to honor that.
So I remember kind of actuallypaging through that that book a

(25:15):
few weeks before leaving for forWestern States in 2017.
So to actually honor that waswas was really cool.
But yes, I think the beautyabout trail running and and
running ultras is that it's sucha humbling sport.
I mean, there's one minute youfeel like you can be on top of
the world, and the next minuteyou hit hit rock bottom.
And also the the thing I enjoyabout about ultra running, I

(25:37):
mean, it's not like riding abicycle where you can have a
mechanical and running if youhave a mechanical, the only
person you can blame is isyourself or your legs or getting
your nutrition wrong or kind ofyour pacing pacing wrong.
So I mean that that's reallycool and and as I mentioned, can
be really humbling at times.

Charlie Reading (25:54):
And I think that's probably a nice segue
actually into the UTMB.
So you'd have the Westernstates as the sort of maybe the
most iconic race in the US.
And then you've got the UTMB,which is the most iconic race in
Europe.
Your relationship with that hasnot been quite so good, has it?
So what's your take on the UTMBnow?
Will you ever kind of do itagain?

(26:15):
You know, what's you've justseen Tom Evans win it
brilliantly a couple of weeksago.
So what's what are yourthoughts on UTMB?

Ryan Sandes (26:21):
Yeah, I mean, as I as I mentioned, I think that the
sport has has really kind ofprogressed and and and moved
forward.
And I mean, as I say, I'venever had a great race at at
UTMB, and it's definitely likethe one race I feel like I
haven't been able to get rightor kind of get close to getting
getting right.
But I mean, to be honest, I Ikind of feel like I've I've

(26:44):
missed my opportunity.
There were a few years where Ikept going back to UTMB, and it
was almost like I was going backthere because I felt like it
was the thing to do, like I hadto get the monkey off off my
back.
But it wasn't actually what Iwanted to do.
And earlier, um so yeah, I IDNF didn't finish UTMB last
year, and it was quite like Ithought maybe that was like the

(27:05):
end of my my racing career interms of I just things felt like
a really stagnant and I wasn'tenjoying the the training and
yeah, it really kind of made merelook things and and this year
decided to enter a a 200 mile,or it was actually a 250 mile,
the Cocodona 250 mile in in theUS.
The training was really toughfor it, the race in itself was

(27:27):
was quite extreme.
But for me, just having acompletely new goal, something
fresh that really excited me.
And I felt like I was doingCocodon because I wanted to do
it.
It felt like lining up at theGobi Desert Race again for the
first time.
And I think for me that is soimportant to actually do what
makes you happy.

(27:48):
So I mean, going back to UTMB,never say never, but I mean,
yeah, currently, yeah.
I mean, I was I was there thisyear, saw Tom's incredible run,
really happy for him.
But I mean, being on thesidelines, I was I was pacing, I
mean, or careering for a s afellow Salaman athlete, Lucy
Bartholomew.
And to be honest, I didn't havelike a lot of FOMO about lining

(28:11):
up at the at that at the startline.
Yeah, I I mean, I feel likeI've had my experiences there.
Like I said, probably not notgood.
But I I don't think any like II mean I I think as as an
athlete, as a human, you need togo through those highs and
lows.
And I always say it's those lowpatches that have actually
shaped me in in life.
And I mean, possibly going backto Western states, if I hadn't

(28:34):
had those low, low moments, Iprobably wouldn't have found the
the passion and and the energyto to go back and and to win it.
Yeah, at that at the time itreally sucks when you're kind of
going through a bad patch, butI think it that's where I've
found I've really kind of grownas as a human and as a person,
and it's kind of forced me tolike evolve.
So yeah, I I think it'simportant where I am now, having

(28:57):
been in the sport for like 18years, just to keep finding new
things and to keep evolving andgrowing and doing the things
that excite me.

Claire Fudge (29:05):
That excitement when you're running that
distance and that adventure isjust so important, isn't it?
To not to not love it or wantit at that point is yeah, is
extremely important.
Um so it's really interestingto hear you talk about UTMB.
We're gonna come back to someof those bigger races actually.
But you know, we often hear,and with professional athletes,
you you hear the whole timeabout their, you know, their big
races, their big wins.

(29:26):
But in your journey, in yourcareer as a professional
athlete, what are some of themaybe smaller wins that maybe
actually made a huge impact onyou know how you approach races
now?
Or maybe it's some of the lowsactually that you've had along
the way that have been, youknow, had this major impact?

Ryan Sandes (29:42):
Yeah, I mean, I think it was when I was writing
my my first book.
I thought that like kind ofwhen I was kind of running
through kind of the races I'ddone, I thought it'd be those
big race wins that would wouldstand out.
And to be and to be honest, Ithink still my favourite race to
to.
date was doing a K9 search andand rescue race with my dog.

(30:04):
I mean I've still I've stillgot the got the photo of us at
at the finish line and just youcould see we both had had smiles
on our faces.
I mean for me I've realizedit's it's so smaller moments or
sometimes kind of having asetback and doing a community
run for a for a for for apartner and running with with
people that don't necessarilyget to run in the mountains

(30:26):
every day or on the trails everyday and everyone's so excited
and eager and it just makes yourealize that like kind of yeah
kind of what I have and not totake it for for granted.
So often I feel like that is isreally kind of yeah really kind
of motivates me and kind offuels me.
Even in in in South Africa I'vedone some some work with

(30:48):
foundations and there's afoundation called Live to to run
and yeah working with with someof the kids there is just so
inspiring just to hear theirbackgrounds of just yeah having
such a a rough upbringing and tospending time with them and it
just makes you realize like howhow privileged we are and not to

(31:09):
to take the small things inlife for for granted.
So I mean I think it's morethose those kind of human
interactions that really standout for me.
Essentially it ran a race inMadagascar and just interacting
with some of the local peoplethere.
I mean Madagascar Madagascarmust be one of the poorest
countries I've been to I meanthe people have absolutely

(31:29):
nothing but some of the happiestpeople I've ever met and I
remember like being inMadagascar people just being so
happy and having nothing butthey had like a really close
like family and that was enoughfor them.
And then I remember flying backto Cape Town via South Africa
via Johannesburg which is a bigbig city in in South Africa and

(31:51):
spending the the night there butjust driving along the freeways
everyone's getting road rageeveryone's in their like fancy
four by fours but like no one'sno one's happy or content
they're just grumpy and kind ofjust kind of going going with it
and I think for for me that wasso important.
Another thing that springs toto mind was when a good friend
of mine Rainer and I we ranacross the the Himalayas ran a

(32:13):
section of of the Great HimalayaTrail and that that that
experience for for me because wewere up in the high mountains
we were very reliant on the onthe local Nepal people to to
give us food and and shelter andI mean they were just
incredible.
There were times when we wouldknock on the doors of like a
random house in in the mountainsat like two three in the

(32:35):
morning and they kind of wouldalways open their doors they
would invite us in let us sleepin their beds give us food just
yeah just the like the kindnessof those those people just how
far a small gesture of ofkindness goes.
But yeah I mean yeah I I thinkfor me like if if I look back on
on my career it's more thosethose moments of being able to

(32:57):
to travel around the worldinteract with different people
that have kind of really shapedme and and kind of what's what's
been important to me.
I guess that the racing and thedoing projects has just been
kind of the the excuse to havethose interactions and and
experiences.

Claire Fudge (33:12):
I mean we could probably talk forever about the
stories of like you know goingto different people's houses and
knocking on doors and yeah theinteraction with the with the
local people.
Is there a particular likemoment in time whether that's in
a race or not in a race thatreally taught you a lesson and
shaped you as the athlete youare today?

Ryan Sandes (33:31):
Yeah I think it's probably if if I say it's
probably like the the lowmoments in in in my career.
I mean I can think back to endof 2014 early 2015 when I had
glandular fever and I mean againI thought maybe that was the
end of my running career at thattime there were a lot of
athletes getting overtrainingsyndrome and glandular fever was
I guess essentially the thestart of that and I mean I again

(33:54):
I stopped in enjoying runningand was really trying to force
things and it was only when Iactually took a complete step
back and stopped setting goalsfor myself like running goals
and just run started runningagain for the enjoyment that I
actually started to enjoy itagain.
And as I found as soon as Istarted enjoying something then
physically my performances areare a lot better.

(34:15):
And I mean even again Reyno andmy my friend and I we did a a
run around the country of ofLesotho which is a kind of
landlocked country within inSouth Africa really mountainous
and the conditions were reallybrutal.
But um anyway I came out ofthat with a stress fracture in
in my sacrum and and again Ithought that was the the end of

(34:35):
my running career and again justthat like complete setback and
having to completely start againstart from I mean I remember
doing the first hike in themountains again for the first
time just hiking and beingcompletely out of breath and my
calves cramping and I was likehow am I ever going to get to
where like where I was so justlike really building up from

(34:56):
from scratch.
I think those are the the likemoments I really think about and
and would kind of take thosemoments kind of moving forward
in in my career just likerealizing that I guess in life
you've got to kind of keepevolving and and moving with the
times and I guess in life andin business like yeah the world
is such a fast place or it'sjust you're moving at such a

(35:18):
fast pace that like I meanthings change you you have to
adapt if you if you can't adaptand and evolve then I mean
you're not gonna you're notgonna survive the the pace of of
the modern world.
So I mean I think that's that'sbeen like a really important
lesson for for me.

Charlie Reading (35:34):
You mentioned there the the running around the
Soto which I I was fascinatedwhen I listened to this because
firstly what I envision I mean Iknow South Africa pretty well
but I didn't envisage that beingas difficult from a terrain and
a climate point of view as youdescribed.
So I'd love you to tell thestory of of that but I'd also

(35:54):
like you to share you I'm gonnadescribe it the welcome
committee that you got early onwhich put the whole thing in
jeopardy in your in your minddidn't it but it also I think it
left quite a lasting impact onyou that welcome committee so
kind of tell the story of ofwhat that was all about what it
was like and you know what didyou learn from the welcome
committee?

Ryan Sandes (36:14):
Yeah so I I guess yeah the Lesotho project so I
mean I actually attemptedanother project the previous
year with Red Bull this idea ofrunning the length of of the
skeleton coast in Namibia andunfortunately I ran into some
seal clubbing happening halfwaythrough the the the project and
things escalated really quicklybasically I was in in the kind

(36:37):
of wrong place at the wrong timeto to summarize things but
really quickly found that I waskind of arrested or detained and
yeah kind of that was the endof the project but I mean it was
quite a kind of scary situationbut nevertheless managed to get
out of that and then it waskind of a good friend of of mine

(36:58):
said what about running aroundLesotho and I thought how hard
can it be like look at it on amap it looked like the small
little country it was only athousand one hundred kilometers
and essentially we'd just bekind of hugging the border all
the way around Lesotho and sothat's how the idea started
spoke to Rey no he's he's kindof got a got a rubber arm and he
was pretty quickly keen to joinand I mean that that was

(37:20):
essentially how it how itstarted.
We did a couple of recis andthen really quickly realized
that the terrain up there wasbrutal and also essentially we
weren't following hiking routesthat would take like the route
of least resistance we were justfollowing the circumference so
we were going against thevalleys so I mean instead of
often like a hiking route wouldtake you down into the valley

(37:42):
and we were going against likethe valleys and then the peaks
it was up down up down therewere no no trails during some of
the recis we encounteredthey've got the local herdsmen
on top um but they also havethese packs of dogs that were
were quite hectic and early on Ihave discovered that it was
going to be a yeah quite a quitea hectic project and it was

(38:04):
actually through that that I Ispoke to Red Bull and I said
just I'm feeling reallyuncomfortable from a safety
point of view but like and and away to make it safer would be
would be to for like there werea few select sections that we
could potentially have guys onon horseback join us.
Just from a safety point ofview they could go ahead could
speak the the local language soRed Bull agreed to that and I

(38:28):
felt a lot better about theproject.
We started the the project Renoand I and it was the the second
night that we'd actually justpicked up the the two guys on on
horseback and we were goingalong Raina and I could run
through the night quite easy butthe the the horses couldn't
couldn't go at night so we westopped and we we found like
somewhere to to camp for thenight and it was next to like a

(38:52):
crawl which is basically wheresome of the the herdsmen would
would keep their sheep and westarted setting up but we were
looking around we couldn't seeand we were waiting and waiting
but then it started to to rainand it got really dark and and
cold so we just set up our ourtents.
Anyways we set up tents gotinside and we were just like
going off to sleep and the nextminute I just remember hearing

(39:13):
this like screaming and shoutingrocks being thrown like I
remember just like opening myeyes and seeing this like rock
pierce my tent I mean or itdidn't luckily it didn't pierce
straight through the tent butlike the whole tent like just
indented Rayner was lying nextto me kind of screamed we ran
out the the tent and the twoguys on on horseback they their
tents were one up from us andthey they had got out and they

(39:35):
were like basically there wasjust screaming and shouting and
rocks being being thrown likesticks were and and yeah it was
just complete chaos and yeahthat the two two guys on
horseback were literallyfighting for their lives.
Luckily they could speak thelocal language so eventually
things calmed down and it wasthe the two herdsmen in that

(39:56):
area they had seen us coming andthey had thought that we were
coming to steal their sheep sothey had kind of called a whole
lot of friends in in the nearbyvalley so there were suddenly
like nine nine guys so so so thethese sheep and yeah luckily
with having guys that speak thelocal local language things
calmed down and the guys werereally apologetic like two of

(40:17):
the guys were were were cryinghim and yeah I mean kind of yeah
things things calm calm down Ican't say I slept much that that
that evening and I mean in inmy head I was just like okay
like this is the end of of ofthe project I've got a young son
Rain and I had to really runacross the Himalayas which was
pretty sketchy as I mentioned Ihad this bad situation along the

(40:39):
skeleton coast and I thoughtlike this was it I promised my
wife that if like anythingsketchy happened that was the
end of of the project.
I mean that that night all kindof just lying there tossing and
turning through the night I waslike cool this is the end of of
the project and we woke up thenext morning and we kind of took
our tents down and we'reheading out there was one of the

(40:59):
the local herdsmen was likesuper apologetic um and offered
to kind of navigate and to showus a way to to get out of there
and and they would like startedchatting a bit a bit more.
He explained it in terms ofthat basically the the chiefs
that live at the bottom of thethe mountain they pay the the

(41:19):
local herdsmen they would givethem one sheep a month if none
of the the sheep got stolen orinjured over the space of a
month but basically because itit's a high cattle theft area it
had been like nine or tenmonths since they had actually
been paid.
So essentially they weren'tbeing paid their their salary so

(41:40):
they all kind of being paid.
So they were super on edge andobviously reacted in a in a very
like harsh way.
You could see they were theywere really sorry and for me it
was probably didn't think it asmuch at the time but it was a
real like eye-opening situationfor me just to like realize that
I mean especially in in SouthAfrica we we come from such

(42:02):
diverse backgrounds and suchdifferent backgrounds that it's
so important to just listen andunderstand like where the other
person is is coming from andjust to have empathy and for me
that was a real yeah kind ofeye-opening situation just to to
have empathy and and realizefor sure the situation wasn't
ideal the guys could have justcome and and spoken to us but

(42:23):
kind of they they come from sucha different background where
life can be so harsh.
So yeah I mean that was a realeye opener for me but anyway
going going back to to theproject literally I I'd said
that that morning I said toRaina like kind of done with
this project I just want to wantto get out of there and we were
going and we had about 50 or 60Ks to get to where we could

(42:43):
resupply and where we would seecrew because that had heavy
rains um when we got about 10kilometers out we got in in
radio comms and our crew hadtold us that the rivers were all
flooded they couldn't get to usso then that meant that in yeah
instead of seeing our crew inlike in the 10 kilometers time
it was going to be like over ahundred kilometers.

(43:05):
Essentially we I was out therefor another kind of 36 hours or
so and it was in that that spacethat I realized like geez I'm
so far in this this now I hadtime to process the situation
that I decided to to keep goingon the on the project.
But I mean yeah it was a it wasa crazy way to to start the
project and I mean the rest ofthe project was was brutal just

(43:26):
in terms of the the weatherconditions uh the the the
terrain it was by far thehardest thing I'd done and I
mean I'm really grateful thatRaina and I had done the the
great Malaya trail before doingthe Lesotho project because we
actually felt we took a lot oflessons into the Lesotho project
in terms of I felt when you'redoing the Himalayas we were very

(43:48):
like set in our ways we werevery specific we didn't kind of
adapt and and evolve enoughthrough the project like I
remember at the start of of theHimalayas project there was
really extreme weatherconditions and we were just like
no we plan to start at 4 a.m onthe 1st of March so we're gonna
start no matter what whereas inthe Sutu really had to like

(44:08):
adapt and even I think it wasday seven or eight I made the
decision to for Rand and I to tobacktrack off the mountain just
because the weather conditionswere too extreme and it's it's
always that that feeling of likeI mean backtracking off the
mountain I didn't know I didn'tknow if that was the end of the
project if we're going to beable to kind of get back up

(44:28):
there again and and complete theproject.
But I mean in hindsight I thinkit was a really good decision.
But yeah I mean justessentially it was a yeah a
really extreme project just fromweather weather conditions
probably I mean weatherconditions anti rain but it's a
project I'm probably most proudabout because I feel that it was
Rainer and I that did thecircumnavigation of Lesotho but

(44:50):
we had a really big team behindus and I feel like it it was a
really big team effort and andwe really like it it was cool
just to kind of find the bestpossible team for them to really
all kind of go above and andand beyond to to make this this
project possible.
So I mean I think that'swithout going off on a tangent I

(45:11):
think for me trail running hasnever been about like running a
set time or kind of aboutwinning a specific race.
It's always been about theadventure and the unknown and
evolving as a person and I meanas I said I feel like for sure
the Himalayas was a thousand sixhundred kilometers and we're
going over peaks at over fiveand a half thousand meters

(45:32):
whereas the Suter was only athousand one hundred kilometers
and kind of the highestelevation was like three
thousand four hundred kilometersbut I think that the conditions
were so much more challengingand also we had to really kind
of build a strong team around usso I feel it's really kind of
yeah kind of made both Rain andand I kind of adapt and just

(45:52):
yeah I mean come out of itfeeling like we had grown as as
humans.

Claire Fudge (45:57):
You certainly got the adventures from what you're
saying.
The adventure is definitelythere in those stories.
So you were talking about youknow the importance of a really
good team moving to the CocaDonor 250 which was 61 hours
self-supported how do you takewhat you've learned in these
lessons of more of the adventurestyle trail projects into a

(46:18):
race like this and secondly I'mreally interested to know about
the fueling side of things.
How does that work for 61 hoursbeing self-sufficient?

Ryan Sandes (46:26):
Yeah so Coca Donor so we did actually so we had
eight stations along the way soat least didn't like have to
carry everything I mean againCoca Donut was again like an
incredible experience and Ithink for me the biggest take
out of it again was the was theteam again having having Reyno
there to crew me who I'd done alot of projects and adventures

(46:47):
with and some of my Salamonteammates like Lucy Bartholomew
and Christian who I'd spent alot of time with over the years
having them out there to to paceme.
A lot of the the Salamancialteam was out there some of the
the the developers and designersso it was also really cool to
share the experience with them.
So for me that was was probablyI didn't realize it before I

(47:10):
entered the race but that wasprobably the biggest takeout
from the the race just thatcollective experience I mean I
guess essentially I'm I'm I'mthe person that was running for
61 hours but just be to besurrounded by that that that
team just yeah I mean itwouldn't have been possible
without them and and I think forme I really went to a place
that I've never been before kindof from a mental point of view.

(47:34):
And as as you mentioned I'vedone like a lot of adventures
and multi-day adventures andthen also a lot of races.
So I felt this was like theperfect blend of the two where
essentially I mean it is a longadventure but at the same time
you're also in a race so I guessthe best way to describe it's
it's it's a bit like anadventure but just with a more
intense feeling like you'reconstantly racing.

(47:56):
So yeah I mean that was reallyinteresting for me and just the
the planning and preparation Imean I felt I made a a lot of
mistakes in in the race in termsof I really battled with with
sleep.
I planned to sleep like justkind of take some trail naps on
on the side of the trail forlike 10 maximum 10 minutes.
I found that's always workedreally good well for me during

(48:18):
the the projects and adventuresI'd done but unfortunately we
had really bad weatherconditions.
So that wasn't possible so thefew times I did try sleep I
couldn't sleep.
I actually only ended upsleeping during the for like I
think it was like seven minuteson the third morning but by then
during the the first night wasokay but that second night I was
yeah hallucinating rememberlike running through the foresty

(48:40):
section and all the treesstarted like looking like like
people I saw some deer thatactually looked like lions they
were actually they looked likeAfrican lions it wasn't even
like the the American likemountain lion so it's it's a
weird feeling that you likeseeing you like having these
hallucinations but you you knowit's not not not real but you
can still see them.

(49:00):
Like even I would see like theone time there was a a big tree
trunk and I thought it wassomeone hanging from a from a
tree and I kept telling myselflike it's not real like snap out
of it but you can see it untilyou get get closer or till you
get yeah like about 10 metersaway.
So I mean that was that wasquite weird and then also just
in terms of just it was weirdlike I also at times started

(49:22):
especially that second nightthere was a big section we
actually had to do on our own wecouldn't have a pacer with us.
So like a pacer is a lot of theAmerican race have it where for
certain sections of a race youcan have someone running with
you.
They're not allowed to carryany of your stuff but it's just
purely from a safety point ofview to to have a a second
person or to keep you company.
So I mean a few times out therewhen it was out there in my own

(49:43):
that second night um I wasreally starting to freak out
like was this like my bodyshutting down and you like so
tired you just yeah don't knowif you if you you're coming or
going.
So that was really challenging.
And then from a nutrition pointof view uh yeah so I I used it
like a combination of like wholefoods but like when I say whole

(50:04):
foods really easy stuff to toget down like smashed potato and
rice and a lot of bone brothsand then a lot of the sports
sports need nutrition like thethe general kind of like
precision hydration and andscratch labs and then a lot of
stuff like like Red Bull and andcaffeine during the night to to
stay awake so it was it wasquite a mixture but I mean in in

(50:25):
hindsight I think it was likeafter about 30 hours I was so
sick of of that.
So I mean if if I did another200 mile or I guess when I do
another 200 mile I'll definitelytry and have more variety in in
my my my food.
And again it's it's quitedifficult but I just feel like
the more tools you can bring themore tools you can have in your

(50:46):
your toolbox for a for a kindof 200 mila the better.
And I mean I think that's wherekind of experience really comes
into play.
But yeah I mean just the theexperience of of running coca
donor was was really cool.
I th I think I think for me mywhy was just like a really
strong during the the race and Iwas I mean I went through some
really dark patches but I mean Iwas quite I was yeah I'm I mean

(51:09):
I I kind of really felt likethere would there was never a
time where I thought that I wasgoing to quit or I was going to
stop even when my legs likeswelled up or got borderline
hypothermia.
I mean for me yeah I was justlike in a in a in a really good
headspace and I and I feel a lotof that comes from just I was
doing I was doing the racebecause I really wanted to do

(51:29):
it.
It wasn't because like I feltlike I should do it always the
thing to to do.

Charlie Reading (51:34):
I've got my first hundred miler coming up
and I'm listening to you talkingabout the 250 and I don't think
this yeah I I have no idea whatI've betten off but it what you
describe worries me but also Ifind it unbelievable.

Ryan Sandes (51:48):
I think on that I mean I I guess it's all relative
like a lot of people say likelike I I can only run 5Ks I
can't fathom how you run 100Ks,100 miles and for me it's just
breaking it down into intobite-sized chunks.
And I mean even a coca donorfor me that's why having a a
support crew out there was soimportant I literally I never
thought about the finish line itwas literally just getting to

(52:10):
the next aid station and seeingmy crew and just that was like
the race within the in the raceand then after that focusing on
the next race and I mean evenwhen times were really difficult
I remember some of those nightstretches where I was so tired
and I felt like I was movingbackwards I literally just
focused on kind of getting tothe next tree and then to the
next tree and then the next kindof marker.

(52:31):
So I mean I feel with a hundredhundred miler just break it
down into into four marathonsand before you know you'll be at
the finish line.

Charlie Reading (52:39):
Brilliant that sounds like amazing advice I
will remember you when I whenI'm battling towards the next
tree.
Now on this podcast we alwaysask for book recommendations.
Now you've already writtenyou've written two of your own
books which is amazing.
What books have you foundinfluencing you on your journey?
I know you or if not bookssomething else but I know you
mentioned Dean Calassis right atthe start and maybe that is the

(53:01):
book that influenced you butwhat do you what do you find
yourself reflecting back on as aas a as something that helped
you on your journey?

Ryan Sandes (53:09):
Yeah I guess I think my mum was always on it on
with me from my teenage yearsthat I need to read more books.
So that's probably something Ihaven't read enough books but I
mean in my early days I rememberlike yeah kind of reading Dean
Conasz's book even I guess it'sprobably slightly controversial
but reading Lawrence Armstrong'sbooks um just yeah I mean I

(53:29):
found it just super super in ininspiring.
So yeah for for me it's justreally the kind of like reading
those human element stories ofof kind of people that kind of
really just go out there and andpush their their their limits.
But I mean I guess guesscurrently I actually listen to a
lot of podcasts like I meanprobably a a podcast I listen to

(53:53):
a lot now is second nature.
Actually a friend a good friendof mine Dylan Bauman started it
and I mean I find it reallyinteresting just the business of
of trail running and and sportI mean I think I think for me
the big dream is just like howcan I keep doing what I'm doing
forever and like how can I keepevolving and I mean I know like

(54:15):
I'm not going to be competitiveforever but is there a way I can
still stay in in in the sportand still chase my dream?
But I mean yeah again a podcastlike like Second Nature I find
yeah just super in inspiringlike the business of of sport
and just being able to thinkoutside the box and and keep
keep evolving.
I mean even going off on atangent with a couple of my my

(54:37):
Red Bull teammates and it's beenreally cool to see how how
their careers have haveprogressed and also just how
they've they've continuouslyevolved and they like are still
able to do what they love and Imean that's why like like a
brand like like Red Bull I I'vecalled them a dream giver.
I mean I've pitched so manycrazy ideas and projects to to

(54:59):
them and they never say like noways you've lost your mind
they're always like cool how canwe help and support you so I
mean that's been also likereally cool because
unfortunately I can't I can'trace forever and I am getting
older but I mean I think thatthere are ways to to keep
evolving and and stay in in thesport and I mean also having
said that again with with withRain we started a sports

(55:22):
management companies yeah I'malso also keen to to give back I
think I'd like to think I'veI've learned quite a lot from
the the the years so I'm yeahI'm I'm yeah really passionate
about about sport and and beingable to to give back and and
continuously kind of grow thethe sport is is important to me.

(55:42):
And also just I guess living inin South Africa I mentioned it
earlier I mean I think that'sone reason why maybe I've I've
kind of kept doing what I'vedone for so long apart from kind
of just absolutely loving whatI do but I mean I just feel that
in South Africa we come fromsuch such varied backgrounds and
I'm kind of lucky that thatthat I've come from a really

(56:05):
fortunate background but I meanI think on it on a daily basis
you you're surrounded by peoplethat haven't come from such
fortunate backgrounds and I'vecome from really rough
backgrounds and you just heartheir stories and you you're so
inspired to kind of keep going Imean I I think back to Live to
run the foundation that I'vementored some of their runners

(56:26):
and and Cinovo you who I'vebecome good friends with I was
out with him and we're doingsome training and I just come
back from UTMB I dropped out Ithought it was the end of the
world and then he startedtelling me some of his stories
and I mean that his his mompassed away when he was like
five years old he didn't knowhis dad he didn't actually even

(56:47):
exist so at school he did reallywell at at at cross country but
then eventually he had to stopbecause when he made the the
regional team they wanted proofof his identification to make
sure he was in the right agegroup and he actually didn't he
didn't have an have an ID.
So eventually I mean that hehad to sort that out but that
took a number of of years andthen again spending some time

(57:09):
with him and going to visit hishis home I mean he kind of would
walk for five or six kilometersjust to just to get water.
So yeah I mean just kind ofhearing some of the the
hardships I mean it's justreally inspired me kind of to to
keep yeah doing what I what I'mdoing and just just to to
realize that I mean running isjust it's just running this
there's so much more more outthere.

(57:30):
I mean having said that I'm I'mreally kind of passionate to to
to give back because I feelrunning has given me so much.

Charlie Reading (57:38):
Well you're absolutely right it's the
stories behind it that's that'sso meaningful isn't it and it's
when you find out more aboutthose stories we've talked about
it a lot on the podcast butit's those stories that make it
powerful whether it's you knowvia books whether it's via
podcasts whether it's just youknow chatting to people out on
the trails or in in inconnections that is getting to
know those stories that is sopowerful both in sport and in

(58:01):
business actually it really itreally is.
And then we have a closingtradition on this podcast where
we get the last guest to ask thenext guest a question without
knowing who that who that personis going to be and the last
guest was Ruth Daniels who isthe CEO of British triathlon and
I think Ruth's question isgoing to be really interesting
for you.
So Claire has got Ruth'squestion lined up.

Claire Fudge (58:22):
So there's a lot of noise about private equity
investment in sport.
How will this impact theevolution of sports and will
there be a bigger divisionbetween the haves and the have
nots and if they don't maketheir returns what might then
happen?

Ryan Sandes (58:37):
Jeez interest interesting question or a hard a
hard question for the for thefinal question.
I mean I'll try to answer thequestion but I I guess my my
take and something that's quiterelevant maybe in in trail
running currently I mean withtalking about UTMB they
partnered with with Iron Man andthere's been a lot of kickback

(58:57):
and I mean as I say I've been inin the sport for 18 years I've
really seen it progress and andand grow and I feel there is
space for for everyone.
I think the beauty about trailrunning and sport I mean like a
lot of people moan about theprice of entering a trail race
or the barriers to entry butessentially running in the in
the mountains is free.
You don't have to run a raceyou can join a running club a

(59:20):
running community and you canget out there and have just the
same experience.
I mean I've got a a lot offriends that go out and and
trail run or run but they'vedon't have any desire to do a
race where the other people Iknow that their goal and their
ambition their kind of tenuredream is to to run UTMB or to to
run western states andobviously then the barrier to

(59:41):
entry does become become biggerbut I mean I I feel there's
there's there's room foreveryone and I mean I also feel
then with with an investment inthe in in the in the sport I
mean I do think it's good I justfeel it's it's really important
for for it to be managed in theright way and and for people
really to to Just uh still stickto the essence and the roots of

(01:00:03):
that uh sport.
I mean, I feel if there's a biginvestment in the sport and and
the sport because of that takesa completely different
direction, then I don't feelthat is that is good.
But I mean I've I feel if if wecan still honor kind of what
the the sport is about, then Imean I think it's a good thing.
And I mean, for me, people say,like, do you think it's a good

(01:00:23):
thing for Iron Man to getinvolved in trail running is
really commercialized thing andthings?
And I think I think it's great.
I mean, I I really feel likeit's it's kind of getting the
sport out to a wider audience,getting more people involved in
the sport.
But I just feel it's needs tobe managed in in the right way.
And I mean, I do feel UTMBslash Iron Man have made it a

(01:00:46):
number of mistakes along theway, but I mean I also feel like
they've been quite honest andopen and have kind of put their
hand up and said for sure wehaven't done this right.
And I mean, I I appreciate thatwe all we're all gonna make
make mistakes along the way.
So yeah, I don't know if ifI've kind of answered the the
question, but I do feel like Imean I I think it is a good good

(01:01:07):
thing for for sport.

Charlie Reading (01:01:08):
You're right.
I I mean I had a feeling thatthat was where you were gonna
take that question.
When I saw it, I was like,that's gonna end up with UTMB
and Iron Man, surely.
And as as the hundred milerthat I'm doing next year is the
Ark of Attrition, which has thenalso been bought by UTMB.
So and uh Claire and I both didthe 50 miler before it was
bought by UTMB.
It'll be interesting to see howthat's changed under the banner

(01:01:33):
of UTMB, and obviously UTMBbeing owned by Iron Man.
So I figured that that would bewhere you would go.
And I think I think my instinctis that you're right in that
there's there's an opportunityto make it even better and be
but but equally it's got to stayauthentic, and there's lots of
cheaper ways of doingultrarunning, isn't there?
So there's kind of it's it'sgood to have a pinnacle, but

(01:01:54):
there's then it needs to uh itneeds to stay authentic.
But yeah, no, fascinating.
And I think I think you kind ofshare a really valid point on
you know there being a pinnacle,but also kind of level
multi-levels to it.
Ryan, it's been absolutelybrilliantly chatting to you.
I think your story isincredible.
I think you know how you gotinto the sport and rose to
success so quickly is isphenomenal.

(01:02:16):
And now sort of doing like Ithink the conversation,
particularly around loving doingwhat you're doing, going away
from the fixed goals and doingwhat you want to do for fun, I
think is is really a reallypowerful lesson.
So a huge thank you for comingon the podcast and we look
forward to following what comesnext.

Speaker (01:02:32):
Thanks so much.
Really awesome chatting, andhopefully chat soon again.
So, what did you make of theinterview with Ryan?

Claire Fudge (01:02:39):
I think we could probably listen to him for a
year to listen to all hisstories.
There are just so many.
I guess from from the outset,like you know, having a couple
of weeks to that to do amarathon to then going and
winning, you know, a massivedesert race, I think is unreal,
isn't it?

Charlie Reading (01:02:56):
It's insane, isn't it?
I mean, his his time, his firsttime of a marathon just blew me
away when I heard that.
I was like, wow.
For three weeks training, thatis incredible.
But then, yes, like you say, togo on and win there.
And I think I think it wasamazing how actually the more
you spoke to him, andparticularly when we were
speaking into in in the after westopped recording, he said,

(01:03:19):
Well, actually, do you know whatit's like he's created this
thing which we didn't get achance to talk about?
He's created this thing inSouth Africa called 13 Peaks.
It's a bit like an FKT typething.
You just got to go and andascend the 13 peaks around Cape
Town.
And he said, That's more of mylegacy than any results around
Western States or in the desert.
It's people kind of thinking ofme as the guy that created 13

(01:03:41):
Peaks, not the guy who wonWestern States and the four
desert uh ultras.
That's kind of where it endedup coming back to.
That's what I thought wasreally interesting was his
legacy is not and what reallykind of motivates him are not
the medals, but the experiencesand the and the people, I think.

Claire Fudge (01:03:58):
Yeah, and actually that's where he started as
well.
The start of that conversationwas about um, you know, making
the best or being the bestperson, being the best of making
the best of yourself.
You know, it's not aboutbeating somebody else, which is
a really interesting take whenon like he talks a lot about
adventure, but not really aboutracing.
Um, which is reallyinteresting, isn't it?

(01:04:21):
To kind of interview somebodyon the kind of he happens to be
really great, really fast, butactually it's about the
adventure, um, which is which isamazing.
I thought it was reallyinteresting to um listen to him
talking about when you kind ofjust lose the love for something
as well.
That was when you asked thequestion about UTMB.

(01:04:42):
Um what did you what did youthink about that in terms of
yeah, just not having thepassion, I guess, for it.

Charlie Reading (01:04:49):
Well, I think it you're right, it it I could
really resonate with it.
And it's something we've sortof mentioned a few times on the
podcast.
It but when it when it purelycomes down to when it starts
coming down to times and likethe fun drains out of it, it's
really difficult to getmotivated to do um a sport that

(01:05:10):
is incredibly tough.
You know, it is an incrediblytough sport, and certainly Iron
Man is not as tough as runningUTMB, uh, or at least I don't
think it is.
But I found it exactly likethat.
You know, like when it startscoming, getting down to just
like, can I go faster than thattime?
And can I be be that peep, getthat peep?
It was exciting, but it becameless fun, it became much more

(01:05:32):
stressful because the smallestthing can happen that's outside
of your control, and suddenlythe whole plan falls to bits.
Whereas when it's about theadventure, um, it's it's way
better.
I mean, like I so I um, as youknow, I did my Lake Windermere
swim um last weekend.
I'm not sure I would describeit as fun, but it was something

(01:05:54):
that I wasn't sure whether Icould complete or not.
And I was really kind of happywith how it went.
Uh, I won't be rushing back todo it again, but it was
definitely an adventure and itwas definitely pushing through
the comfort zone.
And that to me is way moreexciting than you know, would I
go back and try and beat my timeat Lake Windermere?
Absolutely, definitely not.

(01:06:15):
But, you know, and so I thoughtthe way he said I just stopped
setting goals or ignored thegoals I'd set and just started
training for fun, running forfun again.
That I think is a really goodlesson to learn for you know,
just doing what you do for fun.

Claire Fudge (01:06:30):
And I think actually the you know, he talked
a lot about you know the peoplethat he'd met along the way and
actually the relationships withdifferent communities and um
you know their experiences umand and actually having time out
from the sport.
So when when he had glangularfever, he didn't talk about
loads, but he talked aboutcoming back from that, actually

(01:06:51):
having that time out and comingback in um is having that
passion again, isn't it?
And that that desire, thatadventure.
Um, and actually we've uh justthinking about who who we've
been speaking to recently, um,you know, people that are doing
big adventures have this kind ofsometimes just not a desire to
do anything just yet.
You know, when we ask them whattheir big plans are and they

(01:07:12):
go, Well, there's not there'snot anything just yet.
Because so it's reallyinteresting to hear people doing
these very long advent events,and I it makes me wonder what
that is also about in terms of,you know, psychologically, not
just physically, this must takea lot out of people to do these
kind of adventures when he talksabout his projects.

Charlie Reading (01:07:32):
Yeah, and but what you've just said there
reminds me of the previousepisode with Sean Conway,
because he was saying the samething, wasn't he?
He's kind of like the terrieris now tired for a while, and I
don't need something to wear theterrier out.
But it's what happens, and thereason I did the late Windermere
swim wasn't because Iparticularly wanted to do the
late Windermere swim.
But once I'd got this conceptof, you know, I was going to do

(01:07:54):
Lanzanter John Groaks as thelongest bike ride I could do,
and do Arc of Attrition, whichis the longest run I could think
of, that was, you know, well,could think of that was vaguely
achievable.
Then it as soon as I got in myhead that, well, if I do a
longest swim, I've now got myversion of the longest traffic.
Like it that sort of createdexcitement as a whole.

(01:08:17):
And and I think it takes timeto come up with these ideas that
excite you in your mind.
And once you've got them, thenit's like, right, now I can now
I can go off and get kind ofdetailed on it and do the
training and and get excitedabout it.
And so I suppose that's the oneof the lessons that I've taken
from this is it's how do youkind of gestate and formulate

(01:08:41):
what that is, because only thatonce you've got that and you go,
right, now that whole thingexcites me.
Now I'm gonna do that.
So um, yeah, and I and I thinkum he certainly added a few
races to our bucket list aswell, hasn't he?

Claire Fudge (01:08:54):
Yeah, I mean, even just doing a bit of research on
him, I was like, oh dear, thisis there's a lot, there's a lot
of races here.
I mean, some that we obviouslyknow of, and others that were
just well, he calls themprojects, but you know, the
adventures.
I mean, it's just yeah, justamazing.
You know, one of the greatthings that he that he talked
about was having the book, Iforget his name.

Charlie Reading (01:09:16):
Um yes, I can't remember the yes, I know he
can't.

Claire Fudge (01:09:19):
Very well-known Australian runner.
No, Australian, South Africanrunner.

Charlie Reading (01:09:22):
South African, South African, but yes, I can't
remember his name.

Claire Fudge (01:09:25):
But the fact it was written down, he looks
through it and and somebody'salready kind of said you can do
it.
Um that's really that's reallylovely to be able to kind of
hear it kind of written in adifferent way.
It's not you saying like thisis my goal, this is what I'm
gonna do.
It's actually somebody elsesaying you can do it.

Charlie Reading (01:09:42):
Um yeah, I wonder, I wonder if anyone, if
somebody had done that for himfor UTMB, I wonder whether.
Yeah, well, we didn't speakabout race visualization, but
I've heard him sport talk abouthow important that is to him.
And he's and he I've heard himadmit that he could never
visualize himself doing well atUTMB, but he could visualize

(01:10:02):
himself doing well at otherraces.
And so, I mean, visualizationis a really important thing
anyway, but yeah, that'sinteresting, isn't it?

Claire Fudge (01:10:11):
Um, yeah, yes.

Charlie Reading (01:10:12):
Um we should maybe another question we'll
have to ask him another time, Isuppose.
Um, but uh right there we go.
Another fascinating episodewith amazing stories,
adventures, and incredibleresults.
Um, and for everyone at home,keep on training.