From Ocean to Ironman: Finding Purpose Beyond Victory with Matt Trautman

In this episode of The Business of Endurance, we’re joined by the incredible Matt Trautman - an athlete whose journey embodies the essence of resilience, reinvention, and mental toughness. 

From competing as a white-water kayaker to becoming a world-class triathlete, Matt’s story is one of overcoming obstacles, including a severe spinal injury, and finding the strength to not only recover but to thrive. 

Matt opens up about his path to recovery after a life-changing crash, his transition from professional athlete to coach, and how his background in kayaking and yacht racing shaped his approach to endurance sport. 

He shares invaluable lessons on building resilience, dealing with setbacks, and finding purpose beyond the racecourse. 

If you’re looking for insights on long-term performance, mental fortitude, and how to tackle life’s hardest moments with grit and grace, this conversation is for you. 

Highlights:

• Resilience Through Setbacks: Overcoming physical and mental challenges, including a life-changing spinal injury.
• From Whitewater Kayaking to Triathlon: How kayaking set the foundation for Matt’s endurance career.
• Adapting to Injury: How Matt embraced a slow recovery to return to triathlon stronger.
• Load Management in Training: Respecting recovery to avoid setbacks and enhance performance.
• Influence of Mentors: How coaches like Brett Sutton shaped Matt’s career and coaching style.
• Dealing with Concussions: The psychological and physical challenges of recovering from a concussion.
• Team and Community Support: The value of camaraderie and encouragement during tough times.
• Retirement Decision: How family and shifting motivation led Matt to step away from professional triathlon.
• Building a Strong Endurance Base: The benefits of developing a physical foundation through varied sports.
• Mental Resilience and Goal Setting: Using small, achievable goals to regain fitness post-injury.

Links:

Connect with Matt through Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/mattytrautman/

Please Subscribe to Business of Endurance on Apple Podcasts, leave a comment, and give us a 5-Star review. 

This episode was sponsored by The Trusted Team and 4th Discipline

Episode Transcript

Matt Trautman (00:07):
Professional athletes do you have lots of
setbacks along the way.
You have your ups and downs andjust realizing that there's no
down without up and no upwithout down and you just got to
ride that wave and see your waythrough it to get to the other
side of that.

Charlie Reading (00:19):
In this episode of the Business of Endurance,
we're joined by the incrediblematty trauman, an athlete whose
journey embodies the essence ofresilience, reinvention and
mental toughness from competingas a whitewater rafter to
becoming a world-classtriathlete, matty's story is one
of overcoming obstacles,including a severe spinal injury

(00:41):
, and finding the strength tonot only recover but to thrive.
Matt opens up about his path torecovery after a life-changing
crash, his transition fromprofessional athlete to coach,
and how his background inkayaking and yacht racing shaped
his approach to endurance sport.
He shares invaluable lessons onbuilding resilience, dealing

(01:02):
with setbacks and findingpurpose beyond the race course.
If you're looking for insightson long-term performance, mental
fortitude and how to tacklelife's hardest moments with grit
and grace, this conversation isdefinitely for you.
So listen up and dive in tothis brilliant episode about the

(01:22):
journey of Matty Trauman, thisbrilliant episode about the
journey of Mattie Troutman.
Do you know what?
When we look at the back end ofthis podcast, then we see
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We see that 57% of the peoplethat regularly listen to it
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(01:42):
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(02:05):
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So thank you so much for yoursupport and for being a part of
the Business of Endurancecommunity.
Let's dive in.
So, matt, welcome to theBusiness of Endurance podcast,
really looking forward tochatting to you and sort of

(02:28):
diving into all things Ironman,all things South Africa and lots
of other stuff.
But I want to start with atopic we haven't talked about
before, which is you started outas a competitive whitewater
kayaker before you transitionedinto triathlon.
So can you take us back tothose days?
What does that look like?
I didn't even know that was athing, and so I mean I know what

(02:49):
whitewater rafting is, but Ididn't know that it was a
competitive thing.
So tell us a bit about that andalso kind of maybe sort of
segue into what did that teachyou that later proved useful
when you came to triathlon?

Matt Trautman (03:04):
Yeah, hilie, um, thanks for having me on.
Yeah, I mean the kayaking.
Suppose it's that we have to goback to where I grew up, which
was in peter maritzberg, um, insouth africa, and I mean it's a
very sports mad town.
I guess.
There's a lot of big enduranceevents that, uh, that happen.

(03:25):
There's the comrades marathon,um, which is the biggest the
ultra marathon in the world,participant wise, and then
you've got mid-mile mile, whichis, I think, also, if not the
biggest, one of the biggest massswim events.
It's a mile and a dam there andum, yeah, just just that, I
mean growing up there, obviouslyI had a big influence on my

(03:47):
career and who I, you know,turned out to be.
And, yeah, one of the sportsthat is popular there is
canoeing and there's a racethere, the Doozy Canoe Marathon,
which is a three-day eventstarting in Peter Maritzburg and
going down to Durban, and myparents had both done it, um,

(04:07):
and were into it, as I was, as Iwas growing up and I mean,
amongst other sports, uh,comrades as well, and, and, yeah
, I mean it's it's a tough sportto do, um, when you're younger.
I mean, I only got into it a bitlater in life, but yeah, I was
playing I guess all thetraditional sports in primary

(04:28):
school growing up, but paddlingwas always on the radar and as
soon as I was I was able to thenthen got into that.
Yeah, in high school I went to,I went to a boarding school
there just outside of PeterMaritzburg and you had to do one
term of team sports, like itwas cricket, and then you could

(04:51):
start.
You could start paddling in thein the fourth term and yeah,
that was I couldn't wait and soI got into it then and, yeah,
just really enjoyed it.
I think getting out it wasdefinitely a way to get out of
the boarding school and get offthe grounds on the weekends was

(05:12):
a big attraction.
But for various reasons I guessyeah, I was growing to it and
it's yeah definitely set me upin terms of being an endurance
sport athlete later in life doyou think just sort of kind of
diving deeper on that?

Charlie Reading (05:29):
do you think it ?
You know what?
What specifically do you thinkabout that sort of sort of youth
stage?
Do you think then helped youlater on, when it came to
ironman in particular?

Matt Trautman (05:41):
like it is an endurance sport.
I mean I did.
I know the question started offwith whitewater kayaking, which
I did do.
The doozy is it's down a river,it's, I guess, what are flack
water boats.
Otherwise, Like in the Olympicsyou've got the kayaking event
is a sprint from, I think, 200meters to a kilometer on flack

(06:02):
water and it's very similarboats, except you go down rivers
with them which yeah, I meanit's quite unique, I guess, to
South Africa.
There are some other eventsaround the world, but it's, you
know, it's very popular inPietermaritzburg and Durban.
Yeah, I guess I mean thetraining.
You've got to train for it likeyou would a triathlon.

(06:23):
I teaches you the discipline ofdoing that, and I mean from a
physical point of view.
It definitely sets you up wellfor being active and fit and
you're building this big aerobicengine in your youth and that
no doubt helped with thetriathlon.

Charlie Reading (06:42):
It's interesting, actually, because
we've often talked to peoplethat whether they end up in
triathlon or doing somethingelse, that they start with
swimming in their youth.
Swimming in your youth seems tobe a great way of and it's
described in the same way.
It's a way of building theengine, it's understanding, sort
of following a training program, it's having a tribe, building
a tribe around you, and itsounds to me that that's

(07:03):
actually delivered somethingvery similar to what a lot of
people that start in a swimmingbackground probably get.
Were you a swimmer as well as ayoungster?

Matt Trautman (07:12):
Yeah, a hundred percent.
I mean there's like I thinkdoing anything at that age and
building a big, a goodfoundation, it can help.
It can help, I mean, swimmingwould have been.
It would have been more usefulfor triathlon in terms of the
technical aspect of it andgetting those neuromuscular
patterns dialed in a bit better.

(07:32):
In youth I did swim, yeah, injunior school, and, like I
mentioned, there was a mid-monthmile which I did a few times
and yeah, it was.
It was more just a school sportthat you'd swim, I don't know,
like once or twice a week, Iguess, and then be the guilers,
it was never just a school sportthat you'd swim, I don't know,
like once or twice a week, Iguess, and then be, the garters.
It was never something that Itook too seriously, which, yeah,
like I said, would have beenuseful, but um, yeah, the

(07:55):
paddling.

Charlie Reading (07:56):
It sounds like it did something different.

Matt Trautman (07:58):
It did something similar the paddling for sure,
and I mean you got a.
I mean I played a lot ofdifferent sports and besides the
paddling, there was your crosscountry and that race, the doozy
you got to.
There's a lot of portage inwith your boats.
You got to be very run fit andyou're running with your boat
quite long distances.
So, yeah, there was a goodcrossover to triathlon for sure.

Charlie Reading (08:23):
And so that kind of raises another question,
which is so we talk a bit aboutthis kind of opportunity for
people to niche down early, andparticularly in triathlon.
You know, with ironman,historically people didn't sort
of start doing ironmans untilthey were certainly in their 20s
, and sometimes not even untilthey were in their 30s, whereas
we're now seeing youngerathletes switching to long
course much sooner.

(08:43):
So they're niching down muchearlier.
But you had range from doingall sorts of different things.
You also spent some time onsuper yachts, which I'm going to
kind of touch on in a minute.
But just before we do, what doyou think the difference?
You know, what do you thinkthat range of doing different
sports provided to you later on?

Matt Trautman (09:05):
of doing different sports provided to you
later on.
Yeah, I mean, I'm a bigbeliever in that, that you don't
need to specialise too soon inyour youth.
I mean the technical aspects ofswimming, like definitely
picking that up sooner ratherthan later.
You see the importance of that,especially in the short course
Olympic distance stuff.
But even moving now into theshort course olympic distance

(09:32):
stuff and but even moving nowand see the longer course stuff,
you gotta, you gotta have agood swim foundation, um, but
yeah, outside of that, I thinkyou want to, you just like in
terms of youth, you just want toinstill that that passion of
moving your body and and beingactive and having fun, um, and
yeah, it's whatever you findenjoyable.
It just sort of becomes a habit, I guess, and gets ingrained
that this is a good way to liveand a good way to spend your

(09:54):
time.

Charlie Reading (09:55):
Brilliant, brilliant, and just tell me a
little bit about what you weredoing with the high-performance
yachts.
What did that look like, andwhat lessons from the sea helped
you shape your approach toendurance?

Matt Trautman (10:07):
land rate racing on land yeah, so I got into
sailing straight after schoolwhen I matriculated at 17.
Yeah, I'd spent five years,like I said, in boarding school
and I couldn't wait to just getout and explore the world a bit,
I guess.
So, yeah, I mean I started offjust working on a diving and

(10:31):
fishing boat in Mozambique anddid that for a few months and
then met a guy there who had anold round the world racing yacht
in the in the uk and he waslooking for for crew.
So it went over to the uk anddid some racing there on this.
It was like an old 80 foot boat.

(10:51):
We had like 20 we'd sail withabout 20 people on board, um,
and we sailed across theatlantic and yeah, it just sort
of was always my plan to justtake, I guess, a gap year and
then go back and study something.
But that gap year turned intothe next 10 years.
I mean up until recently Iguess I was on more like a 20

(11:14):
year gap year before I had tofind a desk job.
Yeah, I mean it didn't startoff as a.
I mean I wasn't racing straightaway.
But yeah, what did it teach me?
I mean sailing is a lot of.
It is about the preparation ofof your equipment.
I mean having having your boatsand good working order is is
very important, and I mean as asport.

(11:34):
There there are a lot ofvariables, a lot of things that
are out of your control I meanthe weather.
You can predict it to an extent,but but you do, there is an
element of luck involved, Iguess.
And I mean you're workingtogether with other members,
with other crew members, to getthe best, the best, out of the
boat.
And, yeah, it's, there's lotsof factors that go into it and I

(11:58):
eventually, yeah, from the crewstuff, I then tried some
single-handed sailing andmanaged to get some funding
together to do this race acrossthe atlantic called the mini
transit, which, yeah, that wasan experience and sailing
single-handed across theatlantic and definitely some
some good lessons there and inperseverance and staying focused

(12:19):
.
That that I took over totriathlon.
But I mean, yeah, triathlon wasat the time obviously wasn't on
the radar and I started as aprofessional triathlete.
Well, I started triathlon at 27and so, yeah, late starter, um,
but like sailing's a from aphysical point of view, it's
like it's not like you'resitting behind a desk, yeah,

(12:41):
you're always on the move andthere was some, some carryover
there as well and I love thefact that you've talked about a
couple of things.

Claire Fudge (12:48):
I think triathletes definitely forget
one prepping your equipment.
So the fact you were able tolearn that early on I think is
is amazing.
On the, on the yachts and alsothis, this idea of like these
variables and things you know,being out of control, and I
think you know a long race, raceday, anything can happen, can't
it?
So what?
What took you from the, theworlds of of yachts, to then

(13:13):
coming into triathlon becauseyou mentioned just there that
you got into it a little bitlater in life what really
brought you into the world oftriathlon?
And then Ironman, or did youstart with Ironman, because I
know some athletes do?

Matt Trautman (13:26):
yeah, I mean I started, yeah, straight into the
longer course stuff it's.
I mean, at the time we were, wewere based, I was on a boat,
working on a boat in Cowes onthe Isle of Wight and it was
actually in 2012 and theOlympics were on.
The Brownlees obviously wonthat year in London and there's

(13:47):
a lot of focus on triathlon andyeah, I literally saw that,
thought it would be a fun thingto try.
I mean, I was still stayingactive, I was paddling and doing
some running and I'd done a, atrail marathon, yeah, in that
year, in 2012, and yeah, it juststarted as a fun challenge and
yeah, there are lots of otheroptions um, in the uk, a lot of

(14:10):
races to choose from.
So did a half distance racelater in that year and, yeah, I
found that I was um, that Ireally enjoyed it first of all,
and um was competitive and it'skind of snowballed from there
quite quickly and that came backto South Africa in the in the

(14:31):
off season and race 70.3 hereand then did Ironman South
Africa.
It was in 2013 and qualifiedfor Kona there and then, yeah,
it just it did just the momentum, kept going and went to Kona
and it did well there and thenthought, okay, let's try and

(14:52):
give this a go as a as aprofession.

Claire Fudge (14:55):
So you quite quickly got from kind of this
idea of being being in the UKover the Olympic year and
thought, actually, triathlonlooks a good go.
And then how long did it takeyou then from from there until
going professional?
Was it literally just a coupleof years?

Matt Trautman (15:11):
Yeah, I raced.
I raced one year in the agegroup category in 2014, and
raced as a, as a professional,and that was my first
professional victory.
So, yeah, that was a like a bigturning point in my career and
sort of solidified that I couldmake a living out of it and that
I could be competitive, couldgo very quickly.

(15:32):
I mean the sport I wouldn't sayit was as competitive as it is
at the moment.
I think if I had done the same,if I tried to take the same
trajectory now, yeah, youprobably wouldn't be winning
races straight off the bat.

Claire Fudge (15:46):
What do you mean by that?
Do you mean the professionalworld of triathlon has got a lot
more competitive?
Like, for what reason, morenumbers of people coming in, or
numbers of races, or lack ofnumbers of races?
What's kind of driven that, doyou think?

Matt Trautman (15:59):
Yeah, I mean, I think there's just there's been
more publicity for the sportwith starters.
I think there's just there'sbeen more publicity for the
sport with starters.
There've been more athletesgoing, more younger athletes
getting straight into the longcourse stuff.
There's more money, I think,with the PTO and now with the
Ironman and Pro Series, andthere's just more incentive for

(16:32):
people to do well and to getinto the sport straight away
instead of going through the,through the short course circuit
first.
And yeah, there's.

Charlie Reading (16:35):
I'm sure there are more, more professionals
overall racing, for whateverreason?

Matt Trautman (16:36):
yeah, probably there.
I mean, I don't know if theirjob is financial or what it is,
but it's definitely a biggerprofessional sport these days.

Claire Fudge (16:42):
We certainly saw like a massive sort of uplift in
terms of age groupers and thenage groupers going, you know,
going professional over theyears.
But it's interesting you talkabout it being more competitive
now, you know, since kind ofpost COVID, I wonder if people
have sort of moved intodifferent sports, but it seems
to have had kind of a second,you know, kind of a second wind
again.
You had a crash in 2017, whichwas horrific, and you came out

(17:07):
of it extremely strong.
So tell us a little bit aboutwhat happened in 2017 after your
trauma and spinal injury.
So tell us a little bit aboutthe accident, but also about
what it took for you to be ableto get through that, recover and
actually come back even evenstronger.

Matt Trautman (17:28):
Yeah, um, in 2017 , I was riding on a Saturday
morning, it was yeah last longride before 70.3, south Africa,
in East London, and yeah, goingout towards uh, franschhoek here
in the Cape and yeah, I got hit, uh hit from behind by a car at

(17:51):
high speed.
I was riding in the in theyellow like emergency lane and
this car was in there forwhatever reason and uh and
hooked me out and yeah, theresult of that was, yeah,
crushed, yeah, crushed, threecrushed vertebrae and that they
then needed to operate on.
Yeah, straight away it was.
I mean, it was quite close tothe spinal cord and I was very

(18:15):
lucky not to have any spinalcord damage.
And yeah, some other.
I mean, that was the, that wasthe main, yeah, the main.
The main injury was, yeah, abig one.
That, yeah, so they had to do aspinal fusion between those
three vertebrae and yeah, it wasa.
It was a long recovery.

Charlie Reading (18:33):
What was the advice at the time?
Were your sort of specialiststelling you, yeah, you'll be
back racing again in no time, orwas there very much
contradictory advice to them?

Matt Trautman (18:42):
No, I mean, there was, it was the, there was, it
was the only, it was the onlyfeasible option that the spinal
fusion itself, that thereweren't many other alternatives.
The ligaments between thevertebrae had had torn in this
during the accident.
So, yeah, I mean, I got hit,landed on the bonnet and the
windscreen and then supposedly,as I was like flying through the

(19:03):
air, like that twisting motionand for the ligaments as well,
and so, yeah, to stabilize thearea I had to put in the put in
the rods.
Um, the surgeon no, he was, hewas pretty straight up that um,
I probably wouldn't raceprofessionally again.
He had done like spinal fusionson a few athletes, but mostly

(19:24):
rugby players.
I was in had the operation inStellenbosch.
It's a big professional rugbycommunity there and it's, yeah,
I mean, rugby is obviously adifferent sport.
If you try it alone, you're notgoing to try and scrum anyone,
unless it's a mass start, Iguess.
Yeah, I was going to water, noton purpose, but no, he wasn't

(19:47):
too positive that I'd be able toto race professionally again
and I guess that was some smallmotivation to try and prove him
wrong and not the biggest one.

Claire Fudge (20:00):
What were your motivations?
Because to be told, obviouslyto, to have been, you know, a
competitive professionaltriathlete.
And then have, because to betold, obviously to to have been,
you know, a competitiveprofessional triathlete, and
then have this accident.
Be told that I guess that wasmaybe a step up, you know,
actually be told that there ishope that you could have this,
this, this operation.
But what was going through yourmind because you mentioned
there about you know actually,well, I'm going to prove

(20:20):
everybody wrong, I'm going toget back to it.
Were you kind of goingbackwards and forwards, from I'm
going to prove everyone wrongto, I'm going to get back to it.
Were you kind of goingbackwards and forwards, from I'm
going to prove everyone wrongto, kind of what's, you know
what's going to happen.

Matt Trautman (20:30):
Yeah, for sure, I think.
I mean, I think initially I waslike, okay, just you have to do
what you have to do.
It was like I don't think Iobviously didn't know at the
time what the long-termprognosis was was going to be.
Yeah, it was like initially,you just gotta, I mean, like you
say, you know, a little bitconcussed, and I think you're
thinking that straight um, youjust gotta order the survival

(20:52):
mode um in the initial phasesand then no, I mean I like it
wasn't my initial thought to totry and um race professionally
again.
It was like I definitelyexplored my options.
I was, I mean, I remember likelooking for jobs back in the
sailing industry and but I meanthe like I had to stay put for

(21:13):
for the recovery, for theinitial I mean at least a few
months, I guess, as it as thefusion settled and the bone
started to um to grow back.
And then, yeah, I mean I thinkone of my, one of my traits is
that once I do set a goal andvery single-minded and focused
on trying to see that through,and my first goal, I think, was

(21:34):
just to be able to run again, Iwas like if I can just run again
and then I'll be happy, and itwould have been.
You know, I can live like anormal life and as far as I'd
always lived my life, I guess,and yeah, once you start seeing
like the small improvements, itis motivation on its own and
yeah, it is always like it's,even when you're, you know, not

(21:56):
injured.
Seeing the progress and tryingto improve is is what drives you
and, yeah, there was definitelythat to just to try and get a
little bit better each day andsee, you know where I ended up,
and it took about six months.
Then, before I ran again, I justbuilt up slowly.
Um, there was yeah, there's norush in that process, as the as

(22:18):
the body tries to heal.
And then, yeah, I kept seeingprogress and then, like I think
it was probably only after aboutseven, eight months that I
thought, okay, I could, um, Imight be able to race again.

Charlie Reading (22:29):
Did your training change?
You know did.
Did being hit by a car on theon the bike have a psychological
impact?
That meant you trained moreinside, or you know how did?
How did that all play out?

Matt Trautman (22:42):
Yeah, well, I mean my wifele wasn't shading me
out on the road at all, that'sfor sure.
For those first few months itwas all yeah on the indoor
trainer and no, I mean just interms of the.
From the physical standpoint itwas much better without having
any jarring on the back.
And yeah, I mean with therunning.
I started off on the l2g, theanti-gravity treadmill, and then

(23:03):
on the treadmill and I mean therunning was the was on the LTG,
the anti-gravity treadmill, andthen on the treadmill and I
mean the running was the was thehardest discipline to get back
because you put in so much loadthrough your back when you're
running and without the discs inbetween the vertebrae anymore,
there's a lot more load goinginto your lower back and and
about that.
So, yeah, getting the musclestrong enough took some time but

(23:25):
yeah, in terms of getting backon the road, it was.
It took a while and then Nicoleended up following me in the
car for for the first, it wasprobably first few months of any
riding that I did on the road.
Yeah, it's like I don't think Iwas ever like.
I don't think it ever made memore nervous, I mean definitely

(23:47):
more aware of the of the risks.
And yeah, first thing I did wasput a red light on the back of
my back.
That might have made adifference in hindsight one
that's more recent as well.

Claire Fudge (24:07):
But how do you think that that first trauma
kind of changed I guess your, ifit did, your mindset or your
approach to training, and what Imean by that is you know, were
you you were talking there a lotabout.
Actually your body takes timeto recover and we see so many
athletes, whether they'retriathletes or in a different
field, actually doing loads oftraining and not taking enough
time to recover.
So did it change your approach?
I know that some of it you hadto, but did it change your

(24:29):
approach then and now in termsof training, recovery, load,
mindset?
It's a big question, I knowyeah, I mean definitely
initially.

Matt Trautman (24:40):
I mean that like I had to adapt the training to
just be able to cope physically.
And then, yeah, I mean I didtry and and then get back into
into normal I guess normaltraining and training like the
way, the way I used to.
Yeah, so I got pet by the car.
It was in January and then Idid, I did 70.3 Bahrain and like

(25:06):
November, december that yearand and that all went fine, like
relatively pain-free, and thenI thought, okay, let's ramp it
up some more and in training for70.3 in South Africa again,
which, yeah, it then ended upbecoming like a big thing in my
mind to, okay, this is a yearpost accident and this will be

(25:30):
like my proper comeback race.
And, yeah, I ended up ended upoverdoing it in the lead up to
that and had like issues withthe sciatic pain.
There was some of the discsbelow the fusion started bulging
and pushing up against nervesand like, thankfully managed to
get through that race and still,you know, make my comeback.

(25:50):
But then, of course, a fewmonths out again after that, and
I think it was really onlyafter that that I truly
appreciated that.
Okay, you're gonna have to try alittle bit of a different
approach and and respect.
You know what's gone on andyeah, it's mainly like load
management and not getting intothat situation again where you,

(26:12):
where you're doing damage so youget to this stage, there must
have been a point where youthought, do I quit?

Charlie Reading (26:18):
so what, what?
What was it that continued topush you forward and then
describe what you went back towin ironman Wales again.
Didn't you Describe what it waslike getting back there and
winning again?

Matt Trautman (26:33):
Yeah, I mean in terms of quitting, for sure, I
mean I must have retired ahundred times in my head over
the course of being aprofessional triathlete.
I mean not just at that stagestage, but I guess at all stages
when you do question your lifechoices.
But yeah, as I said, I meanthat's like once I like set a
goal and for whatever reason itis trying to see that through.

(26:55):
That I did manage to win 70.3south africa, which I guess was
the biggest reward at the timeand from all work that I'd put
in.
But then had had those issuesafterwards and then I went back
over to Europe and trained withthe Brett Sutton and a squad and
, yeah, I struggled, struggledfor a while.

(27:16):
It was so up and down.
Just thinking back, yeah, I hadhad some really bad races and
then managed to string togethera few good weeks of training and
get to Wales and in decentshape and win that again, which,
yeah, I mean it obviously feelsgood winning, good for your ego
.

Charlie Reading (27:35):
It's a tough race, but it is an amazingly
well supported race, isn't it it?
I mean, it's beautiful, but thesupport is incredible.

Matt Trautman (27:41):
I mean, it's honestly one of the highlights
of my professional career.
Racing, yeah, I love theircourse, love the town and all
the support you get along theway.
It holds a special place in myheart and I wouldn't change it
Brilliant.

Charlie Reading (27:56):
So let's fast forward then, to 2024.
Now, ironman South Africa 2024holds a very special place in my
heart because where I got myKona slot.
What I remember from that dayis probably what everyone says
every year, and I think Clairewarned me in advance who it was
going to be was tough sea swim.
Fortunately we got the fullswim, not the shortened version.

(28:17):
Lot very, very windy bike andthen hot and windy run, and I
remember seeing seeing the prosflying by me which of, I dare
say, you were one of them that Iwould have seen.
That's unbelievable in in thatwind.
So describe what happened inthat race as far as you're aware
, because I don't think you'recompletely sure what happened,

(28:38):
but maybe, maybe, with time,you've worked it out.
Um, yeah, just decide, describewhat happened in that race for
you yeah, I just like very.

Matt Trautman (28:47):
It was a very windy day and it's always a
tough course, even if theconditions are perfect.
You're always in for a reason,for a tough day.
But yeah, like I say, we hadthe full swim, had a, had a
great swim and for me, justtrying to think it was, I was in
the front pack.
Yeah, the guy managed to getout first out of transition.
Even that was, uh, that was astandout.

(29:07):
And yeah, we had some strongbikers that, yeah, there was cam
.
Yeah, camper was there anderasmus fenningson, who ended up
winning, and we were allrelatively close together.
I think cam had got up the roadbefore my accident, before I
crashed.
Yeah, it was on the second leap.

(29:27):
I think he was ahead by about aminute.
But, yeah, very much in the mix, still pushing hard and, yeah,
pushed a little too hard.
I guess it was, I don't.
I don't remember the accident,but someone did take a video of
it, surprisingly.
So, yeah, could see inhindsight what had happened.
But, yeah, on a descent and Ithink I just I hit a bump, got a

(29:51):
little bit airborne and therewas a strong crosswind and like
on the tri bike with the discwheel and deep section front
wheel, and I think it just likeblew me out and, yeah, I ended
up hitting the deck.

Charlie Reading (30:05):
In those videos that you sent, like the day
after, you do look like you'repretty beaten up.
So what?
How did you?
How did you feel, based on whatyou'd been through with with
the car?
How did you feel in those days,that day after?

Matt Trautman (30:18):
I mean again, initially I was.
I mean I was completely out of.
Initially I was.
I mean I was completely out ofit.
I was, yeah, I had quite a badconcussion.
Um, so definitely wasn'tthinking too straight.
Um, apparently all I was uhasking after the crash was was
the bike all right, or who's gotmy bike and where is it?
And then, yeah, it was quite.

(30:39):
Apparently I don't remember anyof this.
We're quite keen to know whathad happened in the race and
kept asking you know, about theoutcome of the race.
Um, yeah, there was.
I mean, after the accident,besides the concussion, the
outbreaks in collarbone and yeah, a lot of road rash and to
learn how to operate on thecollarbone, yeah, for the second

(30:59):
time and I, yeah, matched theother side, so both collarbones
broken.
But yeah, I mean, I think likewith concussion symptoms it's
yeah, it definitely takes awhile and to start to start
thinking straight againafterwards and like it was quite
a.
It was a very rough few weeksand post-crash where you, I
guess not in your right mind andthere's a bit of a daze, like

(31:23):
thinking back a bit to this,like very sleepy and and yeah,
like I said, just not notthinking straight.
But I mean in the end it was,it was the crash that I guess,
retired me.

Charlie Reading (31:34):
I haven't haven't raced professionally
since then obviously there'sbeen a lot of talk about those
crashes, but what do you think?
What's the toughest moment ofyour career that people didn't
see, that perhaps you knowwhat's been the toughest part of
that whole journey for you.

Matt Trautman (31:51):
Yeah, I mean this last crash was tough, just not
like coming to terms with notracing again and dealing with
that and not having, I guess,the ending that I would have
wanted having I guess the endingthat I would have wanted.
Yeah, those few months afterthat accident were definitely
hard to deal with and asprofessional athletes do, you

(32:11):
have lots of setbacks along theway and you know you have your
ups and downs and I guess justrealizing that there will be,
you know there's no down withoutup and no up without down and
you just got to ride that waveand you know, see your way
through it to get to the otherside of that.

Claire Fudge (32:28):
You mentioned there about the 2024 crash and
that sent you into retirement.
Was that?
Were you already thinking aboutyour, your career at that point
, before that 2024 race, thatactually at some point I'm going
to go?
I'm going to stop when I go outon a high?
Some athletes do differentthings.
They stop when they're at thetop of their career or they kind
of go out when, when things aresort of changing.

(32:49):
So what made you make thatdecision?
Was it purely the crash or werethere lots of other factors
involved in in your retirement?

Matt Trautman (32:56):
yeah, I mean I was, as I said, I'd retired a
few times in my head before that, but it was going going to be,
you know, potentially my lastyear, like it's always, I guess
it's.
It is hard to to retire whenyou're on top Cause you don't
you know, you don't know howlong you'll be able to.
You know, if you can keepperforming, then then you'll do

(33:17):
that and I think if I'd had goodresults last year, I
potentially would have doneanother year.
But like I had, I mean I'd hadsome serious discussions with
Nicole about the next steps andNicole was pregnant with our
second child and traveling, yeah, with the young family and
trying to make a living.

(33:37):
That had been a professionalchild, it's like, based in South
Africa, at least it it doesmean a lot of time away from
home.
So I mean those were were bigconsiderations, um, and then, of
course, the financial, thefinancial aspect.
You got to be doing well inraces, um, to earn a living and
so, yeah, there were lots offactors, um, and after that

(34:00):
crash it was going to be, likeyou, at least four or five
months to get back to a goodlevel of racing again.
And yeah weighing everything up, but it just it didn't make
sense and, yeah, in a way I lost.
I didn't have the samemotivation to to prove anything
to myself or others again thatthat.
I could make a comeback.

(34:21):
I mean, if I, I think if I'dhad the same, I mean definitely,
but you know I was a younger,me, and and had the same drive,
then you know I could have comeback and done something, but, um
, just I'd lost that a bit and,yeah, lost the need to to prove
anything and it was, it was agood, uh, in the end, good time
to move on.

Claire Fudge (34:41):
I guess, like you know, a really, really difficult
decision.
And and now you're coaching andyou mentioned, obviously, being
coached by or under the eye ofBrett Sutton before tell us a
little bit about your coaching.
So what have coaches in thepast, how have they shaped you
as an athlete, and what have youtaken from that coaching

(35:03):
philosophy into your owncoaching with athletes now?

Matt Trautman (35:06):
yeah, I think Brecht, he was my first.
Well, he was my second coach.
I was, I was coached by localprofessional triathlete clearing
, kent Horner, which was, yeah,a great start around and they
had a great squad here.
That that I started with anddefinitely set me up and set me
on the right path.

(35:27):
And, yeah, training with others, at least initially, was I mean
, yeah, a great fun and greatway to learn and be motivated.
And then when I went, when Iturned pro, I was looking to
race more overseas and try andbe based outside of South Africa
and so joined Brett Sutton andhis squad and, yeah, that was a

(35:52):
big, big step in my career and Imean learned, learned loads
from Brett.
I think his I mean he's he'sobviously one of the most
successful triathlon coaches inhistory with the amount of
Ironman world titles and Olympictitles.
He's got his athletes too.
Yeah, I mean his philosophy isquite different, I guess, to a

(36:14):
lot of other coaches.
He's very good at looking atthe entire holistic view of an
athlete and, you know, not on onthe numbers specifically at all
, really and and more just, howdo we get this person as a, as a
human being, to to their bestpotential?

(36:34):
yeah, and so looking likelooking at the overall picture
and I guess knowing whichbuttons to push to motivate
different people and andcreating, I mean, the importance
of of creating the rightenvironment is is very important
and he had, you know, beingsurrounded by other
high-performing athletes in this, in this training environment,

(36:58):
where I guess, success isinevitable in the end.
That's the way it feels is,yeah, it was huge and I mean
there's, yeah, a lot of likesubtleties of the way he goes
about it and but in the end it'syeah, just just consistent
training in the rightenvironment was were the biggest
lessons I took from Brett.

(37:18):
From that I moved out of thefamily here, I guess, and we're
spending less time overseas andgot a local coach who was a lot
more into the numbers.
So, I learned more on thattechnical side of things, on
setting specific targets.
But yeah, I mean in terms of myown coaching.
I guess it's a new approach.
I try to take the best of bothworlds there and into my

(37:41):
coaching now.

Claire Fudge (37:42):
A mixture of numbers and that kind of
holistic part that you weretalking about with Brett, and I
guess you're an expert atgetting over injuries and being
patient with your body, so I'msure that comes across in your
coaching about being patient.
Is that something that you seea lot with your athletes in
terms of kind of this rushed,got to do more hours and not

(38:03):
give yourself enough recovery?

Matt Trautman (38:10):
Yeah, for sure.
I mean, it's definitely a lostart these days in terms of
listening to your body and, yeah, dialing into how you feel and
on each specific day and notbecoming a slave to the program
and, yeah, we live in a verylike digital connected world and
just taking it back to to like,yeah, being in the moments and
listening to your body on eachday and just trying to get the

(38:31):
best out of yourself and on eachday instead of chasing you know
these these metrics is.

Claire Fudge (38:36):
There's a big part of it with your coaching now
and with your athletes.
I mean, we've been having,obviously, a discussion since
the world championships in konahad changed quite considerably
and with all the people we'vebeen speaking to all the guests
on our podcast and and with ourin our own triathlon communities
.
It's been a really interestingconversation that we've had with
lots of people.
Yesterday I don't know if theannouncement came out before

(38:58):
yesterday I saw the announcementof of Kona and the world
championships now coming backtogether so that males and
females race on the same day.
Tell us a little bit about whatKona and that experience has
meant to you.
What do you feel sort of makesit really special to you as a
race?

Matt Trautman (39:16):
Yeah, I mean, kona is the pinnacle of Ironman.
There's a lot of mystiquearound it and, as was clear with
the announcements and the pollsthat they've done it's.
It's very important to topeople and a big driving factor
on why people, a lot of people,race Ironman is to to get to
Kona and to tick that box.

(39:37):
Yeah, for me, like initially itwas yeah, my first world champs
was in kona and probably mybest race there.
I mean not in terms of time,but just in in terms of
performance and enjoyment.
After that, I guess, neverlacked right and racing and in
the heat, comparatively, Ialways perform better in the

(39:57):
cooler conditions.
And, yeah, as a professional,the race, definitely you need to
, you need to swim well there,you need to be in or very near
the front pack in order toperform there.
So, like it's a very specificcourse from the professional
side of things to do well, that,yeah, you have to.
You have to fit into that boxif you're gonna perform there,

(40:20):
which, yeah, never really suitedme.
So, yeah, I would have like,personally, would have liked to
race in nice.
I think I never.
I never did, but that wouldhave been more suited to me.
But, yeah, in terms of theannouncement.
It's that's what, that's whatthe people wanted and, um, I
understand that it's got so muchhistory and there is, you know,

(40:41):
it's kona, that's what thebirthplace of Ironman is, and I
think a good move in terms ofgiving the people what they want
.

Charlie Reading (40:49):
It's difficult if you're in South Africa,
though, isn't it?
So it's a long way from SouthAfrica.
I remember chatting to somebodyout in Kona, and they'd come
over from South Africa and Ithought I'd had a long trip and
they'd flown to London beforethey could start their journey
or continue their journey to orcontinue their journey.
So it is a long way.
So I kind of get why Nice waswas a good offering, but I think

(41:11):
the more important thing isthat we've got the guys and the
girls racing back on the sameday, which, to me, is is more
important than I mean.
Kona is obviously the, theiconic place, and we all want to
race Kona, but also but I don'tknow what are your thoughts on
bringing the guys and the girlsback together?

Matt Trautman (41:29):
Yeah, I mean, I think the initial change was
that they they tried the two dayevents in Kona and that wasn't
sustainable.
And and yeah, I think theinitial thinking was that it was
more important to try and haveseparate races than to stay in
Kona, which is why they moved toNice.
And yeah, I mean, in terms ofthe fairness of the professional

(41:53):
female race, yeah, you might be, might be losing a bit there,
and personally I don't know howmuch the, like the age group
race is affecting theprofessional female race, um,
having passed the age groupmales around, um, and then
there's so like the splitcoverage and that's not.

(42:14):
You know, each race isn'tgetting as much attention but
yeah, I mean, I think it was itwas the only way to keep it in
kona was to have it on the sameday.
In an ideal world, I stillthink having the other separate
races is probably a that'sprobably a fair race and you
know you get the, the focusedcoverage if you have it on
separate days, but yeah, I don'tknow, I guess.

Charlie Reading (42:35):
Yeah, it's a difficult call, isn't it?
There is no perfect, is there?
Yeah, the reward of having it inKona on one day outweighed the,
you know, having it somewhereelse on separate yeah, and so
one of the questions that wefinish off with always is we ask
our guest for books that havehelped them along their journey.
So what books do you findyourself, either you know,

(42:57):
recommending to the people youcoach, or what books
particularly helped you on yourjourney through sport?
Well, any books, any books.
Actually, it doesn't have to bea sporting book.

Matt Trautman (43:07):
Yeah, I think the standout book I really enjoyed,
which I read when I was firststarting out in triathlon, was
the Sports Gene by David Epstein.
That was a good read, and AlexHutchinson Endure.
That book was a great one, likesports specific.

Charlie Reading (43:23):
By the way.
So David Epstein was also theguy that wrote Range, which was
what we where.
We started this conversationreally.
But yes, brilliant, brilliantbook.
What did you take from Endure?
We've had Alex Hutchinson onthe podcast and he's brilliant.
I love that book.
What did you, what did youlearn from that book?

Matt Trautman (43:39):
okay, but that's naive, I think.
In this specific no, I got liketo be honest.
I can't remember exactly what,uh, what was in there, even it
was a few years ago, but Iremember really enjoying it.

Charlie Reading (43:52):
Yeah, it's a brilliant.
It's a brilliant book.
Any others that you would throwout there as books that helped
you on your journey.

Matt Trautman (43:58):
Yeah, the one I read um in 2017, which made a
big difference, was a book byryan holiday called the obstacle
is all is the way, and that isjust about embracing, I guess,
where you are and justovercoming, like, overcoming the
obstacle is the point, and ifthere's any points at all, then

(44:20):
then that is it that is.

Charlie Reading (44:21):
It is also a great book, and I can see why in
2017, that would have been avery helpful book for for
getting you through what wasclearly a huge obstacle, and
then what we also do.
We have a closing tradition onthe podcast where we get the
last guest to ask the next guesta question without knowing who
that's going to be.
Our last guest was john huttonobe, who is the ceo of british

(44:41):
cycling and claire.
I think you've got John'squestion for Matt, haven't you?

Claire Fudge (44:47):
So John Dutton asked what three leaders, dead
or alive, would you invite todinner, and why?

Matt Trautman (44:54):
I think it would be interesting to this may be
controversial, but have Jesus,buddha and maybe Lao Tzu, the
founder of Taoism, or Muhammadthere's some different
perspectives on religion and thefounding members and hear what
they have to say to each other.
I think that would be quiteentertaining.

Charlie Reading (45:16):
Wow, I think that would definitely be
entertaining.
So when I saw that we weregoing to be asking you that
question, I was like, well,Nelson Mandela is obviously
going to be one of those peopleum, what question would you
specifically ask at that table?

Matt Trautman (45:29):
just to open up the conversation oh man, I don't
think you'd have to askanything.
I've been you could just sitback and let them fight it out.

Claire Fudge (45:38):
Enjoy the different views my first
question is what would they eat?

Matt Trautman (45:43):
Just looking at that range of people sat there,
well, I mean you could justwater and bread and could turn
it into anything, I guess, andsome red wine maybe it would be
a feast, obviously, which wouldhave to be South African red
wine, just to finish it offnicely.
Brilliant.

Charlie Reading (46:00):
Matt, it's been fascinating chatting to you.
I think it's been fascinatingchatting to you.
I think it's.
It's incredible how you gotthrough that first crash and
came back even stronger andperformed like in clearly very
difficult circumstances, um gotback right back to the top of
the sport.
But I think it's been.
It's been an incredible journeyand it's been really
interesting to learn how you gotthrough that and and where

(46:22):
you're heading next.
So just to finish off, what'snext?
What are you excited about inthe future?

Matt Trautman (46:27):
well, at the moment I'm working back in the
sailing industry.
I'm doing sail design for asail making company in coton
coton almond sales and, yeah,getting back into the racing
again.
We got the lipton Cup coming up, which is probably the biggest
inshore sailing event here inSouth Africa, so I've designed

(46:50):
some sails for the boats thatwe're racing on and, yeah,
that's been a challenge and, youknow, a big learning experience
and I mean that is, yeah,definitely keeping me, keeping
me motivated and engaged at themoment.
So the next goal is improve asa, as a sail diviner and, yeah,
getting back into into thesailing game, which is a sport

(47:10):
you can do for for a long timeyes, it's not quite so hard on
your body as as some of theother previous ones, matt, it's
been absolutely brilliant.

Charlie Reading (47:18):
Where do people find out more about you?

Matt Trautman (47:20):
yeah, I mean that's.
It's a tricky one, cause Idon't do too much on social
media, but yeah, I do have.
Yeah, you can go and find me onInstagram, maddy Trautman, and
you might see some updates everyfew months there.
But yeah, otherwise, yeah, Imean reach out on Instagram in
terms of the coaching.
Yeah, if you are, if you areinterested, then that is, you

(47:41):
can get hold of me there, mattyTraffman on Instagram.

Charlie Reading (47:44):
Amazing.
Thank you so much.
Thank you and yeah, we lookforward to following the journey
as it continues.

Matt Trautman (47:50):
Yeah, thanks guys , it's been a pleasure Simon.

Charlie Reading (47:52):
So what do you make of the conversation with
Matt?

Claire Fudge (47:54):
I thought it was fascinating actually with I mean
, I'm saying fascinating, we'retalking about crashes, aren't we
?
But I think his I mean hisstarting point, and this made me
think, actually, we'veinterviewed lots of guests in
terms of triathlon that havestarted with this kind of
swimming background andessentially he had this like
water background, didn't he?
I know he did lots of differentsports, but that was really

(48:16):
interesting just to.
I guess it comes back to thishaving discipline at a young age
in an inner sports, like beingin a sport.
So that was really interestingto me.
And also there was two thingsactually I wrote down as he was
saying it.
It was fascinating, I don'tthink.
Well, since I've beenco-hosting the podcast, I don't
think we've had anyone in termsof sailing yachts.

(48:38):
I might well be mistaken, no, Idon't think so so that was
fascinating and I was thinkinglike, how does that transfer
onto sort of you know, semi dryland?
But actually him saying that ittaught him to think about
keeping your equipment likeprepped, and you know you've got
to make sure that you maintainthings and also this you know,
being at sea, of course is outof your control the whole time,

(49:01):
isn't it?
So I thought that was reallyinteresting.
That kind of he's come intotriathlon later on in life,
progressed really quickly, andyet he's got this kind of
background of like look afteryour kit, because a lot of
triathletes don't do thatparticularly well, and this kind
of being out of control, thatthat day is never going to go
completely as planned.

(49:21):
What were your thoughts?

Charlie Reading (49:23):
Well, I completely agree and I think so.
Where we started theconversation as well was about
this difference between rangeand niching and specialising too
early.
And I think it's reallyinteresting when you hear from
people like him that have comein from a kayaking background,
playing lots of different sportsat school and then going into

(49:45):
sailing and then becoming, youknow, like, pretty late on,
deciding I'm going to trytriathlon because I saw the
Brownlees do really well inLondon, and then, like a year or
two later, he's winningIronmans and turning pro.
I mean it's absolutely amazing,but it is a really great
demonstration.
And in range, david Epstein usesthis example of Roger Federer

(50:08):
versus Tiger Woods, and theexample is that Tiger Woods is,
you know, the golfer who, at theage of two, was swinging a golf
club and at the age of four hewas going around a nine hole
course in like 42 or whateverthe number was like ludicrously
good.
And versus Roger Federer whoand then, obviously so Tiger

(50:29):
Woods goes on to become the bestgolfer in the world ever.
And then Roger Federer, heplayed loads of different sports
.
It was only in his late teenageyears that he decided to niche
down and specialize in tennis.
He obviously went on to becomewell, arguably the best tennis
player of all time.
So I'm sure Novak would have adiscussion about that.
But and and yet we think wethink that most of the top you

(50:53):
know, best athletes in the worldever go down the Tiger Woods
path and like specialize reallyearly and yet actually 95% of
the top athletes come from amore diverse, ranged background
and they're more like the RogerFederer and I think that's
really interesting and I thinkthat's kind of a bit of what
we're seeing with this swimmingbackground and people not

(51:16):
necessarily ending up asswimmers, but it's kind of
giving them range and helpingthem in different ways and in
the same way that kayakinghelped him.
So I thought that was reallyinteresting.
What did you make about hiskind of approach to returning
after those crashes or after thefirst crash?

Claire Fudge (51:33):
Interesting, isn't it?
Because both his crashes werequite different in terms of I
mean, obviously the second onehe didn't return, but almost
kind of where he was in terms ofhis career and maybe him still
loving that sport, so that thatdrive to actually and he didn't
mention some of the thingsactually I'd read in terms of
his thoughts at that time butthis kind of actually do you

(51:54):
know what I'm?
I want to go back to this kindof just being being able to be
somebody normal that can go outfor a run and have a run, like I
think it really puts intoperspective you know the way he
told it in terms of you know,actually you're lucky that there
wasn't any other spinal traumaand damage in terms of nerve
damage.
This is what we can do, whichis not particularly great, but

(52:17):
this is the best option andactually I'd be happy if I can
run from this and this is my,you know, this is my goal, and
it must have been reallydifficult to be able to trust
your body that it's okay to getback running, to get back out
there on a bike.
Um, I've worked with numerouspatients, but also athletes,
that have had spinal injuriesand it's quite terrifying to get

(52:40):
back out there and like go, Idon't know, is it okay, can I
run, can I cycle?
So it was Can I run, can Icycle.
So it was amazing that he madethis.
You know this huge comeback andthe fact that he just kind of
threw himself back into things,but also you know how that maybe
translated into his way that hewent about training as well,
because he talked quite a bitabout you know, respecting the

(53:00):
recovery, that it did take along time, that it did take
longer to get back into it.
And you know, respecting therecovery, that it did take a
long time, that I did takelonger to get back into it and
even with that, he still hadsetbacks of those injuries.

Charlie Reading (53:11):
But he was just gonna, you know, just gonna
keep going.
And he alluded to the fact thatand I don't know that he said
it specifically, but I've heardhim say elsewhere his, his
training changed quite a lot.
He switched doing, I think, onthe bike.
Something like 80% of histraining turned to indoors and,
yeah, and you can understand whythat would be the case.
I mean, obviously, it helps youtrain more specifically, but,
yeah, you can understand, havingbeen hit from behind by a car,

(53:32):
why that would, why that wouldbe the case.
So, yeah, I mean, it'sphenomenal that he could do that
, but I think he also waspushing too hard and it was
Brett that said no, no, you needto back off a bit and actually
allow this recovery to be, to beslower than you're trying to to
make it, which you know, I, youknow, I suppose is the

(53:52):
importance of having a coach,isn't it?
Sometimes you need?
You need them to tell you toslow down as opposed to speed up
.

Claire Fudge (53:59):
I think it also comes back to listening.
You know, listening to you, andI always talk about, you know,
with my clients, about listeningto their body, because you know
your body does tell you things,it's just we override it the
whole time and you know it takesa long time to recover from a
lot of these things and actuallylistening to that intuition.
So having you're absolutelyright, you know, having that
coach there, and that's theimportance of having a person as

(54:21):
a coach, the importance ofhaving a person as a coach.
You know, we talk, we oftentalk about ai, don't we?
In terms of you know, having,having, you know, your data
there to tell you one thing, butit can't tell you actually
whether you're ready to goforward, if you're, if you're
suffering from an injury.
So I think that you know, allthree of those things are, you
know, are really, really, reallyimportant.
Do you know?
I I thought it's reallyinteresting mentioned, and I

(54:42):
picked up on it with him aboutthe field becoming more
competitive, which I thought wasreally interesting.
You know, at the time he wassaying, well, maybe the field
wasn't, I mean, maybe he wasbeing very humble about his wins
and how well he did, you know,but actually how that field has
become.
You know, a lot morecompetitive over the years.
What are your thoughts on that?

(55:03):
More competitive over the?

Charlie Reading (55:03):
years.
What are your thoughts on that?
I think you only have to lookat the times to see that it is
definitely more competitive.
The guys at the top of thesport are taking it more
seriously from a science andtechnology point of view than
it's ever been taken before.
I mean I's what's fascinatingis we're only just now starting

(55:25):
to see, if you discount theadvantage of riding a much more
aero, much faster bike.
We're only in in the last twoor three years have we started
to see them coming back to.
You're getting past the timesthat mark allen and dave scott
were doing, which shows you howphenomenal those guys, those
guys were.
But I think, yes, from ascience and technology point of

(55:47):
view, obviously, in a nutritionsense, it's just so much more
scientific than it's ever beenand therefore it yet, yes, it is
, and people are starting longcourse much earlier, which is,
you know, they're specializingin that and that's only gonna
mean that you end up with withwith better athletes in it.
So, yes, I, I think that's thecase.

(56:09):
But, yeah, another fascinatingconversation, another like an
amazing story from a, anunbelievable athlete.
So for everyone else, keep ontraining.