What Happens when Purpose Meets Ambition: Lessons in Leadership with British Cycling CEO Jon Dutton

Episode Transcript
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Jon Dutton (00:06):
have energy and determination, I think.
Have a plan, but don't beafraid to change the plan as you
navigate through.
It's just like riding a bike,isn't it?
Sometimes you want to go in astraight line and sometimes you
have to navigate around.
If you believe in something,then give it everything you've
got.
What does?

Charlie Reading (00:24):
it take to lead one, one of Britain's most
iconic sports, into a new era.
Well, in this episode, we sitdown with John Dutton OBE.
He's the CEO of British Cyclingto unpack how purpose-driven
leadership, bold decision-makingand emotional intelligence are
shaping the future of sport.

(00:45):
From orchestrating thegroundbreaking Rugby League
World Cup to overseeing the pathto Paris 2024 and beyond, john
shares the untold stories behindelite performance, everyday
cycling and the entrepreneurialmindset needed to drive systemic
change.
We talk values, resilience,media disruption and the

(01:05):
entrepreneurial mindset neededto drive systemic change.
We talk values, resilience,media disruption and why mindset
, not just physiology, isbecoming the biggest predictor
of success in sport and business.
So, whether you're an athlete,a business owner or simply
looking for leadershipinspiration, this conversation

(01:26):
is a masterclass in navigatingchallenge with clarity, ambition
and integrity.
If you're ready to think biggerand lead better, this episode
is for you.
So let's dive into theinterview with John Dutton OBE.
John, when we look at the backend of this podcast, then we see

(01:47):
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(02:10):
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(02:34):
the Business of Endurancecommunity.
Let's dive in.
So, john, welcome to theBusiness of Endurance podcast.
Really looking forward tochatting to you some more.
I know we chatted briefly inthe RAC club after a very lovely
dinner.
So looking forward to sort ofdiving in to your journey and
what you're bringing to theworld of cycling now.

(02:55):
And I'd love to start sort ofwhere you started.
So you know you've heldmultiple roles across major sort
of different sporting events,whether it's the PGA Tour's,
uefa and, obviously, the, therugby league world cup, which
we'll definitely want to talk toyou about.
But what first drew you to thebusiness of sport, what brought
you into being in the businessof sport and what have you

(03:18):
learned from that journey thatyou're now wanting to bring to
british cycling well.

Jon Dutton (03:23):
First of all, charlie, thank you for the
opportunity, really lookingforward to the conversation.
I'm 30 years now in my career,exclusively in the sports
industry.
So first of all, I would alwaysregard myself as having a
privileged experience.
I worked across many differentsports.
I always wanted to be aprofessional rugby player and
that's where I started off.

(03:44):
I am from a town called Lee,45,000 population.
Lee was a big part of theIndustrial Revolution, then a
mining town, and rugby rugbyleague in particular has always
been woven into the fabric ofthe town.
So I had aspirations to playsports realised, probably after
a trial and played oneprofessional game.
I was neither good enough norbrave enough, pursued a career

(04:05):
in sports administration, did adegree in sport management at
the University of Northumbriaand I've managed to carry on
that passion for all my love ofsport, throughout my career.
So, reflecting back on 30 yearsof amazing experiences working
with amazing people, you knowjust been involved in some
fantastic things, but that wasmy motivation.
I always wanted to play anddidn't quite make it but have

(04:29):
navigated a different direction.

You mentioned that you were brave enough to
play.
By the way, I was definitelynot brave enough to play rugby
either.
I was far too soft.
It was like hiding on the wing.
But I've heard you talk, usethe words quite often when, when
you've been interviewedelsewhere about being bold and
brave in business.
Do you think that that wascrafted as a result of your
early days in sport, or whatbrought out bold and brave this
term that I hear you?

Jon Dutton (04:49):
use.
I've always been, I guess,ambitious, determined is
probably the the key word, andit was probably that
determination in the early daysof appreciating I couldn't
follow through and be thatprofessional athlete that I
wanted to be to then use mydegree.
My first job was on theEuropean golf tour, as was, and
I just saw opportunity fromthere.
So I think determination ismanifesting to bold, brave,

(05:14):
almost seeking forgivenessapproach, but also, you know, I
appreciate the accountableofficer for millions of pounds
worth of public funding.
So there is a balance betweenreally pushing on and being
ambitious but also neverstepping over the line of being
funding.
So there is a balance betweenreally pushing on and being
ambitious but also neverstepping over the line of being
reckless.
But I think the key word,probably Charlie, is
determination.

I think that's a great word in business and in
anything, isn't it?
Because I think I mean, we'vetalked a lot on the podcast
about you know, is it moreimportant to be born with, you
know, the right sort of talentsor the right determination?
And I think, every time we'veever asked anyone dear,
determination trumps talent.

Jon Dutton (05:50):
Every, every time, I think so and I think we can
learn so much in business fromsports if you think about how we
prepare or train, how we getourselves into the right
position, how we go into thatmatch play environment and how
we reflect afterwards, so thatthere are so many things, I
think, to learn from the worldof sport.
And I don't think I'm naturallygifted or naturally talented in

(06:12):
any particular area, but I havea real determination to work
hard, a big high work ethic.
Got that from my parents.
I would say some stoicism inthere as well.
I think it's probably a bitabout being a northerner, but I
just think the fabric of who Iam I've appreciated I'm not the
most gifted or talented personin the world, but make up for
that with determination, desireand hard work.

And one of those phenomenal things that
you've done.
I mean it's an amazing CV whenyou look at all of the different
sporting, I mean the number ofevents that you must have seen
over the years must beabsolutely phenomenal.
But, um, but one of the one ofthe key ones I would assume
maybe the top of the CV, I don'tknow it was bringing the rugby
league world cup together andputting three events into one.

(06:53):
So for those people that don'tknow really what happened there,
describe what you had to do,why you felt that you needed to
change it and what was theresult of that change.

Jon Dutton (07:05):
First of all, it's my sport and so what a privilege
to be able to do somethingreally special.
I worked on the Rival LeagueWorld Cup in 2013.
I was the operations directorand that was an amazing
tournament.
I worked with Sally Bolton, whowas the CEO Sally is currently
chief exec of the All Englandclub, wimbledon and we just had
a really small budget, a reallysmall team, and we over achieved

(07:27):
we, we outperformed everysingle target and that was great
.
And we reflected and said, well, if we had the opportunity to
do it again, we wanted to do itin a bigger, bolder, more
ambitious way, and theopportunity arose not not too
far from that, in 2015, where wehad a conversation with the UK
government about deliveringassortment that had equality at
its heart and also delivered asignificant social impact

(07:50):
programme, a transformativesocial impact programme.
But that was a long way awayfrom the tournament, so the
tournament was due to be held in2021.
So, six years out, theconversation with government and
it was largely about apolitical agenda as well, about
the Northern Powerhouse as wasDavid Cameron was the Prime
Minister, george Osborne theChancellor, and we had this
slightly weird conversationabout Rugby League being born in

(08:11):
the North, a sport of the Northand an opportunity to stage a
global tournament thatcelebrated that but also
delivered more than the sum ofthe parts.
So forward through.
Obviously, the spoiler alert isit didn't get delivered in 2021
, it got delivered in 2022,which is a completely different
story in itself, but it was justwhat.
What a privilege, what anopportunity to be really proud

(08:31):
of my sport, standing tall men,women and wheelchair athletes on
the same platform, treated withequality, and to deliver a
social impact program thatreally did make a difference to
the lives of people in reallychallenged communities.
And, yeah, so much to be proudof.
And to this day, I reflect backin 2015 of some of the bumps in
the road.

(08:51):
We thought that the EUreferendum we submitted our bid
the day before the EU referendum, david Cameron and George
Osborne as our bid sponsors.
We thought that that would bethe the most difficult thing we
had to contend with.
Um, needless to say, the nextday after the bid was submitted,
neither David Cameron or GeorgeOsborne were no longer in power
.
They they resigned when the EUreferendum didn't go the way it

(09:15):
went, and Brexit was the sort ofthing that we thought, gosh,
that's going to be the biggestchallenge, but little did we
know, charlie, what was ahead interms of having to postpone the
tournament.

Amazing, amazing and yes, so we could
describe what that was like,what was ahead in terms of
having to postpone thetournament, amazing, amazing and
yes, so describe what that waslike.
What was it like negotiatingall of those different things
for the tournament and what didyou?
You know, reflecting back, whatwas the greatest achievement?

Jon Dutton (09:40):
I think the greatest achievement was the commitment
to social impact, it beingdeeply embedded within the DNA
of the event.
It had a purpose.
We always talked about it beinga tournament with a purpose.
I think the achievement of justgetting the thing delivered
after postponement was yeah, itcertainly took a lot of emotion,
a lot of energy and a lot ofback to the word of

(10:01):
determination to go again afterwe had to postpone it.
But in 2015, we were full ofideas and we hadn't probably
quite figured out once weconvinced UK government to give
us quite a big sum of money howwe'd actually do it.
So we went in very, very braveand said we would deliver 32
teams, 21 venues, every gamelive on the BBC all the things

(10:21):
that we wanted to achieve, butwe hadn't quite worked out how
we were going to do that.
But we had a purpose, we had avision, we had a brilliant board
.
The values were embedded withinthe decision-making.
I learnt a lot about myselfover that period and, of course,
having to postpone thetournament, having worked for
almost six years to get thetournament into the position of

(10:42):
less than 100 days away from thestart, having to let it all
crumble around around us andreset and go again I think it's
amazing to hear as well thatyou're bringing this, this, the
social impact program, together,but also the men, women, powers
all together in in one place isjust amazing.

Claire Fudge (11:00):
Moving on to british, how did that experience
impact what you brought toBritish Cycling?

Jon Dutton (11:07):
I learned a lot about myself.
I mean the opportunity atBritish Cycling.
It was just, it was so special.
It's a sport I love, I'vealways loved.
I regard myself as a Tour deFrance super fan.
It was also a role that had anenormous amount of challenge.
I think I'm at my best andthrive where there is challenge.
I've not been disappointed withthe lack of challenge, it's
fair to say.
But yeah, I guess thedifference was I was delivering

(11:28):
an event that had a start, amiddle and an end, whereas
British Cycling hopefully,things will be here in
perpetuity, so it's a slightlydifferent rhythm, although we
now have our own commercialsubsidiary that also delivers
events and a social impactprogram.
So there are some similarities,but I think for me, I joined an

(11:48):
organization two years ago thathas had some challenges,
well-documented in the publicdomain, whether it's a brand and
reputation or financial.
I joined an organization, Iwould say, that lost its
confidence and it's been amazingto be on a journey for two
years that I've led, but withjust a brilliant team and we've
really approached some of thechallenges head on.
I do say there will be more,but having a sport where 27

(12:11):
million people have got on abike in the last 12 months in
the UK, which is an astonishingfigure a third of the UK
population and for us to be ableto try and reach those 27
million people more, give peoplegreat experiences, get people
moving and healthy.
Do that whilst also performingat the elite level and winning
medals in Olympic and ParalympicGames and everything in between

(12:33):
is again what an absoluteprivilege.
It's a tough role, but it's avery fulfilling role to be able
to make a difference.

I mean just listening again, doing the
research for it to speak to youtoday.
It sounds like like you've madeso much impact.
You mentioned the, thechallenges.
What do you think has been thebiggest challenge?
Like when you first joinedBritish Cycling, you were faced
with lots of differentchallenges and made lots of
changes.
What, what do you think hasbeen the biggest I guess

(13:02):
perceived challenge when youwent in, but what was the actual
biggest challenge do you thinkhas been the biggest?
I guess perceived challengewhen you went in, but what was
the actual biggest challenge doyou think?

Jon Dutton (13:07):
I think I remember sitting down as part of the
recruitment process, which wasquite extensive, and meeting
with the chairman, and thechairman was brilliant and just
said look, I'm going to tell youhow it is.
And I guess that was the bit ofmaybe even trying to scare me
off.
And when he told me how it wasand there was no surprise when I
walked into the organisationand what I encountered and you
know, thank you for your praise,but I'm just a bus driver and

(13:31):
it's the team that I've gotaround me that have made the
difference and we were in aposition, two years on, probably
only halfway of where I wouldlike the organisation to be, but
we're in an improved financialposition.
I would like to say our brandand reputation has improved.
Our culture certainly hasimproved and we measure that on
a regular basis.
We've got new commercialpartners, but I think also the
organization's got itsconfidence Back.

(13:53):
A few weeks ago, we published anew strategy that's really
different.
I am really proud of all ofthose things and despite that,
we live in a really challengingenvironment.
I talk a lot about VUCA,volatility, uncertainty,
complexity and ambiguity, and Ithink we can tick every one of
those boxes, but that's whatwe're all living, isn't it?
We live in an environment whereevery day, when we wake up and

(14:15):
consume the news, something newis coming at us, and that's just
we've got to accept that.
You can either feel sorry foryourselves or you can get on and
do something about it, and I'dlike to say we fall in the in
the latter, where we've had ourown share of adversity, but
we've navigated it as best wecan so far you talk there about
culture.

We've we talked to lots of different athletes and
business professionals aboutabout culture.
How.
How do you measure that?
Because you said you're youknow made changes and you're
measuring.
How would you measure that inin the world of british cycling?

Jon Dutton (14:45):
yeah, we, we use one of the many tools that are
available.
We use the happiness index.
It was important for me that weset a benchmark when I came
into the organization and wemeasured that again at points,
and I'm pleased to say that theindicators are positive.
What it's given us also, then,is feedback of the areas that we
still need to work on.
So a big conversation at themoment about mental wellbeing,

(15:06):
about leadership development,and I'm pleased with that
because they are things I thinkwe can do better on and they're
really proactive areas ratherthan maybe some of the hygiene
factors that I encountered whenI came into being.
But, yeah, I think cultureleadership to me is how you make
people feel, and I think then,if you can deeply embed a sense

(15:26):
of collective responsibility, Iwould say my soft contract with
people is based on TLC nottender, loving, care, but trust,
loyalty, and then that C youcan have collectivity, curiosity
or challenge, and I think ifyou can get the blend of that
high level of trust, loyalty,not just the organization but to
each other, and then we cancheat a little bit with the Cs.

(15:47):
But I love people that arecurious, I love people that
challenge me and I love thesense of collective
responsibility.
I think it's super, superpowerful.
I'm a big fan of Jim Collinsfrom Good to Great and I use the
analogy of the flywheel a lot,and I think when I joined the
organisation organisation theflywheel had definitely got
stuck and we've just graduallykept going and it's now getting

(16:08):
its own momentum and that feelsit feels good.
You know, you can measure itusing whatever tool, but also,
if it feels good, that's, it'suplifting, and if people have a
smile on their face, feel happy,healthy and supported.
And it's the same for our GBcycling team.
We've've got 140 riders onprogramme, we've got an amazing
performance director, we've gotan amazing team, and I remember
talking about Paris and creatingthe perfect environment.

(16:32):
The perfect environment isbased on culture, and if then,
the athletes are happy andhealthy and they feel supported,
guess what?
They go out and they perform atthe best.
And that's exactly whathappened in the Olympic and
Paralympic Games in Paris.

I love your idea of this soft tlc but also
swapping out the sea forwhatever you want, I think, in
the end was making my mindquestion a little bit.
Yeah, and I think you knowhaving it, having a measure,
that you have got this benchmarkin terms of culture and
happiness, but I think you'reabsolutely right in terms of
it's something that you feelpeople are breathing it, people
are living it.
Um, you know to feel thatacross all your athletes and and
members of the team as well.
You've spoken a number of timesactually, when just at the

(17:11):
beginning you were, when youwere talking at the start, about
the social impact program youmentioned actually in rugby, but
you also mentioned it brieflyin terms of cycling.
Tell us a little bit about whatnumber one, I guess, what
social impact means in sport andin cycling and what you're,
what you're trying to to achievethrough that yeah, I mean

(17:31):
social impact.

Jon Dutton (17:32):
To me, some people get confused with participation.
So in whatever sport, justgetting more people playing the
game, getting more members, etc.
And that's a great.
I think that's a great outputof the social impact program.
But social impact to me it is apermanent positive change to
someone's life and I guess thehard thing.
Going back to the rugby leagueworld cup, we had a really clear

(17:55):
vision of what we wanted toachieve and it's about
experiences.
And when we sat down with lotsof very smart people, we asked
the question about how we wouldmeasure that and I've always
wanted to measure in aqualitative way and we had lots
of very smart people scratchingtheir heads to say, well, we're
not sure you can do that.
You need to get likequantitative numbers.
And we found a way through atheory of change model and we

(18:17):
carried that forward intoBritish Cycling.
But it's more outcome drivenrather than the numbers.
So 27 million people haveridden a bike.
I'd like to think if we canconvince those to be regular
riders, people will be healthier, make a contribution to the
national health service.
We'd maybe make the nation abit more productive and
contribute to a growth agenda.
That that's a very loftyambition, but we might just

(18:39):
change one person's life and andthat, for me, is more than good
enough and I have a particularpersonal passion around social
mobility I think the fact ofwhere you are born has such a
defining outcome on your life.
So, whether it's education,employment, health, opportunity
and I just think that sport hasa such a massive part that plays

(19:00):
in people's lives that can makea difference.
So we we're doing a number ofdifferent things at British
Cycling, but one is working withpeople in social care, and if
you think about people in socialcare who just don't have the
same level of opportunities asmany other people in society and
this is 2025 in a developednation and many people in social
care have a carer who are theironly friend.

(19:23):
The carer is being paid to besomeone's friend and I just find
that quite astonishing.
So I think, whether it'scycling, rub league, but sport
in general, I think we can usethat as a force for the good.
I think sport is a great way ofbringing people together,
having great experiences,sharing memories, also getting
people moving.
I know social impact program atbritish cycling.

(19:44):
We have four outcomes socialjustice is the first one.
Social mobility, the second one, social cohesion, the third one
, in tackling inactivity, thefourth, and we've gone through a
theory of change and say, wellthey're the outcomes, great,
what might?
We put together a program tolook at that and using things
like our tours of britain, whereon the road we reach hundreds

(20:05):
of thousands of people andcreate visibility.
The Tour de France coming backto the UK, which is amazing news
, the riders that we have in theprogramme are simply just those
people that want to get out forpositive mental wellbeing and
get some exercise in the freshair.
So yeah, hugely excited, reallypassionate about our social
impact programme and if you canstart to see it change people's
lives for the positive, thenyeah, we're all in.

I think this is absolutely brilliant.
Firstly, I heard you say that20 million figure in one of the
interviews I was listening toyou on.
It's an astonishing figure,isn't it?
I mean it's incredible to thinkthat that many people a third
of the people in the UK got on abike in the last year.
That is phenomenal and it doesmean that there is this huge

(20:50):
opportunity.
I know cycling has made my lifeimmeasurably better because,
whether it's a social thing,whether it's getting outside,
whether it's the fitness,whether it's the goals, all of
this stuff is so brilliant and Isuppose there's so much scope
for uplifting the people that doit.
A lot within that 27 millionisn't there.

(21:11):
What are your thoughts on howyou do that and where do you do
that?
I think people understand whatBritish Cycling's role is for
those people that are racing inParis, but does British Cycling
kind of?
What's its scope for the wholeof the community?

Jon Dutton (21:28):
Yeah, it's a really good question, charlie, and I
think and I'm sure my boarddirectors and my team wouldn't
mind me saying I think probablywe'd lost our way in that
definition of what exactly westood for.
So we've always been incrediblystrong.
From a performance team, I mean, our medal tally at both
Olympics and Paralympics isastonishing and that's to be
celebrated, and we have thecompetition pathway that feeds

(21:50):
through into that.
But I think we had lost our way.
And my definition now in ournew strategy definition just get
more people on a bike and givethem great experiences.
And if you work through themultiple ways of which you can
ride a bike, first of all, it'sa life skill Many of.
And if you work through themultiple ways of which you can
ride a bike, first of all, it'sa life skill.
You know many of us are taughtat school used to be cycling
proficiency when I was at school.

(22:10):
It's no bike ability, but youhave that very first step.
Or you might be with thestabilizers, with your mum and
dad, with your family.
You know all of that.
Then it's about freedom andit's about adventure and it's
about liberation.
It's also a form of travel andwe see more people now cycling
to work, and I think I'm rightin saying that the cycle to work
scheme is the biggest way thatanyone now buys a bike.

(22:32):
It's overtaken people justgoing to the shop and purchasing
a bike.
So it shows that there has beena societal change.
We see no more dedicated cycleroutes being developed.
You know, you look at Londonnow.
Comparedondon five or ten yearsago, it's radically different
and lots of towns and cities aregoing through that.
So the reality for britishcycling is that we we reach
about a million of the 27million.

(22:54):
So whether it's our members,people have come to our events,
had experiences, so we have dataof about a million.
We'd love to have more data,we'd love to understand people's
motivation and we'd love toserve them better offers, but
for us it's just throwing ourarms wide open.
And if you ride an e-bike, ifyou ride at home on your Strava
or whatever you choose, if youare out with your family the

(23:16):
weekend or you are ridingcompetitively, we just want to
warmly embrace all of that.
And there is a big conversationabout safety.
We've seen an exponentialgrowth of people riding off-road
.
I think some of that more is alifestyle offer the types of
bikes you can buy now gravel isis enormous, but for us, more
people on a bike, greatexperiences and hopefully we can

(23:39):
start to engage a bit more andhave better conversations you
touch on safety there, which isobviously, you know, a key
factor and probably the singlething that puts more people off
cycling more than than anythingelse.

Does british cycling have scope to influence
the government on?
You know, because I would agree, 25 years ago, when I lived in
london, there's no way I wouldhave cycled to work.
Now it's.
It's significantly, you know,significantly better.
Having been cycling in cornwalllast week, it's significantly
better.
Having been cycling in Cornwalllast week, it's probably a
slightly different conversation,but equally, the cycling is
amazing, coy.
It's an amazing part of theworld to be cycling.

(24:12):
What can British cycling do tomake it?

Jon Dutton (24:14):
safer.
What's its role?
To be part of the conversation,charlie.
So I don't think singularly weare able to influence on our own
, I think, as a group.
So we are part of a sort ofactive groups called the walking
and cycling alliance with manyother people who work mainly a
charitable space, um, and andwe're part of that conversation.
So making experiences safer,developing more infrastructure

(24:36):
and reacting.
We talked a bit early, didn'twe?
About the environment in whichwe live in is constantly
changing and becomingchallenging.
I think that's the same fromfrom a societal perspective.
But yeah, going to cycle inCornwall, getting some fresh air
, feeling good, positive mentalwellbeing, I mean, there are
reasons enough to get on yourbike.

I think we've definitely seen, I think, sort
of post-COVID.
There's been an explosion,hasn't there, of both running
actually, so the ultramarathonscene has sort of taken off and
certainly cycling.
I don't know if there's any, ifyou've got any stats on how
many people took up cycling andcontinued.
I don't know, do you have thosekinds of stats?

Jon Dutton (25:12):
Yeah, I mean certainly there was the
explosion in participationduring the pandemic.
The curve then went downslightly and we do a quarterly
market tracker.
We've seen the 26, 27 millionnumber be pretty stable and
clearly there are challenges forthe industry.
The industry is probably wortha little less overall.
It was a £2 billion industry inthe UK.

(25:35):
It's probably somewhere like£1.2, £1.5 billion industry and
that's slowed down since thepandemic.
But we just want to be here aspositive advocates of better
mental wellbeing, betterphysical wellbeing and if we can
do that scale, genuinely atscale, I think we are
contributing to the nation.
You know that's not BritishCycling, that's just everyone
that gets on a bike and is a bithealthier, a bit more

(25:56):
productive and hopefullycontributes to growth of the
nation.

Absolutely, and actually with a clinical
background, so as a dietician,like seeing that impact from a
medical perspective as well, youknow the rates of sort of
health obesity.
Heard you speak quite a bit ina few other podcasts.
You've been on about values andyou've mentioned it today, both

(26:28):
about you know sort of thevalues that you have in British
cycling, but also the purpose insport.
Is there a time that you canthink of where, as a leader,
you've had to make like a reallybig decision, a really tough
decision, and you've had to bereally sort of guided by the
values that you have?

Jon Dutton (26:48):
Yeah, I would give you the example of the Rugby
League World Cup, the probablytoughest professional decision
in my career, when we were facedwith three options.
One was to postpone ourtournament for 12 months.
One was to cancel ourtournament and walk away, and
this is, after six years worthof hard work, a slug of public
investment.
Or the third option was tocarry on, and I remember vividly

(27:11):
what led to that and that wasthe withdrawal of a couple of
the nations that had playersacross most of the 21 competing
nations, and I remember we had astraw poll in the morning of
our board.
So we had nine directors andthere were three options and we
went round myself in the chair,and we had four directors who

(27:33):
wanted to cancel and walk away.
We had four directors who wantedto postpone for 12 months and
and carry on, and it quicklydawned on my chair that he had
the casting vote, which wasn'tthe best position to be in, but
we worked throughout the day andmy show chris brinley, who's a
wonderful human being, and atthe start of the board meeting
he reminded all of our directorswe were going to make a

(27:56):
decision based on our values andit was just astonishing.
That was a manifestation ofliving and breathing your values
and people.
People were tired, emotional,really angry about the situation
and what had happened.
And yet Chris very calmlyreminded the board and we went
round and guess what?
It was 9-0 that we postponedand carried on for another 12

(28:18):
months, and that, for me, wasvalues in action.
We were making decisions, or wecould have made decisions, as
executives sat 12 000 miles awayfrom the athletes that were
affected.
Many of them afterwards, someof the women from a couple of
the nations, talked about familyplanning and how their whole
life centered on going to thetournament.

(28:39):
I mean, it was just incredible,but it was the values that got
us through, the sense of purpose, sense of collectivity, but the
values and that was superbchairship from chris, but also,
at the time, people were.

People were pretty battered and bruised by what
happened in the preceding weeksif you can tell us I what you
know, what were those kind of, Iguess, key values that that
decision was then made on?

Jon Dutton (29:02):
the first one was authenticity, and what ch Chris
was advocating is that.
You know we've been on ajourney so far.
We've been six years togetheras a board.
He wanted us to be authentic.
The second value wasinclusivity.
You know we were standing forathletes' hope and dreams across
three different competitionsand certainly in the wheelchair
tournament, the first time everit had been part of this whole

(29:25):
festival.
Some people hadn't travelledaway from home before.
I mean, it was quiteastonishing the circumstances
that people were facing.
And the third value was aboutbeing world-class.
You know behaving in aworld-class way.
So you know, drawing the valuesout on the board, reminding
ourselves of our purpose andthen having the conversation and
then coming back to we need tomake a decision and we're going
to make it based on our values Ithink that's great to be able

(29:48):
to like bring that back to thosetrue values and be able to make
a huge decision on that.

How do you in british cycling make sure that
the values that you have, kindof you know, living, breathing
people, are being authentic toit and true to it, rather than
it just just be, you know, awritten document or somewhere?

Jon Dutton (30:05):
No, and it's a great question.
We've actually done a lotphysically recently.
So we've had our office Iwouldn't say redecorated, but
we've got big pillars in theoffice and on each of the
pillars it has one of our values.
So it is a constant reminder,but the values had already been.
We'd gone through a bigconsultation exercise internally
before I joined theorganization.
The bit for me that was missingwas a behavior framework, and

(30:27):
we have put that into being inthe behavior framework.
It's been really helpful interms of helping people
understand what each of thevalues means, but it also allows
people to challenge poorbehavior and they've got
something then to some directionto go in.
The big bit for us is ourpurpose.
So we have a purpose which isto bring the drive cycling to

(30:47):
everyone.
Probably goes back to some ofyours and charlie's previous
questions and and that's thereason we get out of bed in the
morning and like that constantreminder and I don't think
people need to remind it anymore.
But when we decided that wewould have the new purpose,
probably about 18 months ago, Isaid you know that's our
elevator pitch, that you knowyou've got 10 seconds.

(31:08):
We want to bring the drivecycling to everyone and that
really has now been inbuilt, andI hear people repeating it back
.
I hear people repeating ourvalues back here, some people
repeating some of what I've saidbefore back, and that just it
just shows to me that it hasbeen deeply embedded and we are
acting in line with our purposeand our values I think that's

(31:28):
brilliant, and I've I'vecertainly seen that in business,
and I think so.

I often use the term moonshot in that that's
what you're.
You know, if everyone, ifyou've got a list of 10 big
goals, nobody that is employedin the company can list those 10
goals.
If you've got one single thing,that is, you know, one sentence
, one framework, I think that'sreally, really powerful.
I think I think it really pullspeople forward and ultimately

(31:52):
it's their why isn't it?
You know?

Jon Dutton (31:53):
and he who knows his why can withstand anyhow, can't
they, yeah, yeah, and it ispowerful and and this is that
sense of yes, we can measure itgo back to culture surveys and
other things.
But if you can just see peoplepulling together, and as you
sort of alluded to earlier,charlie, we've got a broad
number of different things thatwe deliver.
So we've got a performanceprogramme.

(32:14):
I think it's like having aPremier League football team.
You know, the way that theathletes are looked after, the
way they train, the way we usetechnology is quite astonishing.
So we've got that one end ofthe spectrum, but at the other
end of the spectrum we just wantto get people on a bike, and
then we've got everything inbetween.
So if you've got something thateveryone can coalesce around in
the organisation whether it'syou're working with one of our

(32:35):
Olympians or Paralympians oryou're just going to try and get
children on a bike, the joy ofcycling is pretty powerful and
we found it really commerciallycompelling.
We've onboarded a couple of newcommercial partners and it has
that ubiquity to it whichprobably celebrates many, many
people, many of the population,getting on a bike.

If you clearly know why you're doing something,
it brings other people on board, like the team are on board,
clients are on board, customersare on board.
It works in all ways, doesn'tit?
I've heard you in otherconversations to talk about
growth mindset and one of thethings.
So, as I mentioned to you whenwe when we spoke, my 16 year old

(33:15):
daughter is currently goingthrough the.
So she's done the talentdevelopment centers, she's just
doing the regional version, soshe's kind of working her way up
through the cycling world,which is a whole new landscape
for me to understand.
But what's been reallyinteresting is several people
within British Cycling alongthat journey have said we're

(33:35):
less interested about herphysiology at the moment, more
interested about the psychology.
I think it's a Sir CliveWoodward term.
We want sponges, not rocks.
So I'd love to know what yourthoughts are on the growth
mindset, or rocks versus sponges, in both the sporting world and

(33:55):
also in the business world, andhow do you find the sponges?

Jon Dutton (34:00):
Oh gosh, great question, charlie.
I think fundamentally it comesdown to resilience and building
resilience, whether it's on thefield of play or whether it's in
the organisation, in theboardroom, the growth mindset
piece I really identify with.
So if I give you an example ofour new strategy, maybe six,
nine, 12 months ago, we askedour organisation to do three

(34:21):
things One was have a growthmindset, secondly was to adopt
an entrepreneurial spirit andthe third was to feel liberated
and it was to try and remove thebarriers.
I think as human beings wealways see the problem and not
the solution first.
So clear all those away andwe're in receipt of a
significant amount of publicmoney, but it doesn't mean to

(34:42):
say we have to behavenecessarily with a public sector
mindset.
So it was to try and get thatblend of growth mindset, feel
liberated and entrepreneurial,and I see it in our performance
space.
I mean the way we look atwinning and winning well.
So that might be anything froma skin soup development to the
bike frame to the wind tunnelthat we use, and these are, if

(35:04):
you're in a sprint competitionon the track.
I mean these are such finemargins and that, I think,
manifests it then into theathletes with the resilience
that they need to keep going.
I mean cycling, like many sports, you can fall off your bike.
It's quite easy to fall off yourbike and you see our athletes
get back on the bike and and andgo again and it is.

(35:26):
It's that toughness, it's thatsteel determination and also
from a performance perspective,the olympics and paralympics are
the pinnacle for most of ourriders on program.
That.
That's once every four years.
That's a long time to wait andof course there are many other
competitions in between.
But if that, that is the onething that you are aiming for as
an individual, I think you'vegot to have a really strong

(35:48):
mindset and we've seen peoplesucceed.
I think probably Laura Kennywas the last of the golden
generation on our program andnow we've got a new generation
of young people, but a newgeneration of young people who
probably have a differentmindset maybe the TikTok
generation and have had alreadyin their young lives different
experiences.
So that's quite interestingfrom a psychological perspective

(36:10):
of having to adapt differentskill sets, and that again I
think can relate, whether it'son the field of play with those
athletes or whether it'smanaging people with different
expectations who are now cominginto employment.

And is there any advice that you would give
to parents that are trying tonurture this growth mindset
based on everything that you'velearned about it?

Jon Dutton (36:33):
I think well, parents of a 15-year-old who
plays sports and just try andencourage positivity, not being,
I always say, be as kind toyourself as you would be to
others, and I think that's agood skill to try and master.
Building resilience definitely.
We all know in our life,whether it's doing what we love
or, you know, at work we'regoing to encounter some

(36:56):
difficult situations and you'vegot to be resilient.
I think also being pragmatic Ilove pragmatism and you've just
got to find a way through.
Sometimes life's tough andsometimes you've got to shrug
your shoulders and find a waythrough it, but I think also
just appreciating that probablyyounger people now have had
different experiences and youknow, being a child during the

(37:17):
pandemic, gosh that's you knoweveryone's doing it tough.

So just being a bit kinder is probably not a bad
thing overall I love that aboutyou know, learning to be kind
to yourself and being able to,you know, get back out there and
and get back on with things aswell.
Well, how do you approach?
I just maybe think sort of, howdo you approach I'm not even
going to use the word failure,actually, but not necessarily
winning that you know that notas expected in those younger

(37:42):
athletes.
How do you approach that?

Jon Dutton (37:44):
you know, as, within brit, cycling with young
athletes, I think the programmecan be ruthless the way we
select athletes.
We're allowed a certain numberon the programme and that is
constantly reviewed.
Some people might push backslightly against that, but
that's performance, isn't it?
We see that manifest inmultiple different sports.

(38:04):
I think an example I would giveat the Olympic Games was Beth
Shriever, our BMX rider, who wongold in the previous games.
And Beth won every single oneof her heats.
She was absolutely magnificent,went through the semifinals
unbeaten and came to the finaland didn't succeed.
And you saw the interviewsafterwards with Beth and you saw

(38:24):
that innate mental with Bethand you saw that innate mental
resilience and she said I've hada great experience.
I've given everything I've got.
Bmx racing is so cruel.
If you're not out the startgates at the front, you're going
to struggle to to catch up andI just think it's that I've got
another opportunity.
I'm going to go again and I amgoing to be kind to myself and
and develop that resilience.

(38:45):
And yeah, we see people win,people not succeed, but pretty
much every time people get back,dust themselves down, get back
on the bike and go again.

And that's not just a phrase.
Is it dusting yourself off andgetting back on again either?
I remember actually.
I remember her beinginterviewed and you know to hear
her speak like that after youknow this four-year cycle.
And you know to hear her speaklike that after you know this
four-year cycle and, as you say,sort of building up to it.
Yeah, it's amazing to hearathletes speak in that way.

Jon Dutton (39:13):
Two really good examples.
I mean Matt Cavendish.
Whilst we're talking of cycling, matt Cavendish, 35 stage wins
at Tour de France and you knowhis career, just incredible, and
everyone had written him offand then he got back on and then
he was so close and then he gotknocked off.
I mean that is a manifestationof resilience.
And Dame Sarah's story mostcelebrated Paralympian and Sarah

(39:34):
part of our programme.
You just look at her.
So there are many examples ofrole models and I think we all
need role models in work, inlife, and we're fortunate that
we've got, uh, many of thosepeople absolutely, yeah, really
important, I guess reallyimportant for those developing
athletes as well, to have thoseboth within sport but also
outside of sport as well well,looking back at paris olympics,

(39:55):
I was lucky enough to be there,actually, and watch a few of
these cycling races, alongsidetriathlon, of course.

Well, what's, what's your honest reflection on
how Paris Olympics worked outfor you as a, you know, as a
cycling team there, and howwould you, how do you sort of
balance, you know, celebratingthose athletes that have done
well, but also that pressure tothen get on and do even better
next time?

Jon Dutton (40:20):
yeah, I reflect very proudly on Paris both from
Olympic and Paralympicperspective.
33 medals in total achieved ourcamp environment where people
felt supported and peopleperformed.
And we saw the likes of EmmaFinucane, 21 years old at the

(40:51):
time, her first games, and shecame away with three medals,
including one of those gold.
We saw the performance by TomPidcock in in the mountain bike.
And then you look at theParalympics, you look at the
performance of Kadina Cox, ourabsolutely red hot favorite, for
her event came at the blocks.
She fell off.
She was absolutely distraughtand then she came back in the
team sprint and the team tookgold.
So there are lots and lots ofthings to be proud of.

(41:13):
I think the the key thing forme is it was a young team.
We had lots of fourths andfifth places, which we're really
encouraged by, but we we thinkwe met our expectations.
We created some memories, wegave some people some incredible
life experiences and overall, Ithink paris just was an
astonishingly successful olympicand paralympic game.

(41:34):
I think the nation really stoodup and, uh, yeah, I'm sure we
all have so many memories fromit it was certainly amazing to
um, to watch and be there aswell.

That atmosphere was just unreal.
And when your time at BritishCycling comes to an end,
whenever that might be, whatwould you say?
You know?
Success for you.
Having been the CEO there, whatwould that look like?
So, leaving that position, whatwould success have been for you
?

Jon Dutton (42:06):
that position.
What would success have beenfor you?
I think the most simplisticform to have made a difference
and to leave the organization ina better place than when I
joined it.
Obviously, lots of people willhave the view about what success
means, but on some of themetrics, my three objectives
coming in were to create someefficiencies was number one.
Second was to grow revenue andthe third thing was to invest
into growth is to make sure thatwhat we're doing now is also

(42:27):
looking to the future.
I think we're well on with thatprogram and the financial
results and all the differentmetrics.
People can have a look at thebalance scorecard and judge for
themselves.
But I think the softer piece isto have built confidence, to
have developed some leaders inthe organization.
I'm a big fan of successionplanning.
I'd love to think there's loadsof people in the organisation.
I'm a big fan of successionplanning.
I'd love to think there's loadsof people in the organisation

(42:47):
that want my job and loads ofpeople in the organisation that
want my executive team's job.
I think that's a really healthyculture.
But yeah, it won't be measuredin gold medals and what happens
on the field of play.
It will be measured in thebusiness being in a better place
in a really tough environment,and whenever people choose that,
that's the time that that ends,you know.

(43:08):
Hopefully I can reflect proudlyon my contribution and what
I've done you mentioned that you.

You know you're clearly a big cycling fan and
you obviously want to have a bigimpact in the world of cycling.
What do you think the impact ofbringing the you know you
mentioned that you're a superfan of the Tour de France what
do you think the impact onBritish cycling will be of
having the Grand Depart here inin 2027?

Jon Dutton (43:32):
I think it's enormous, charlie.
I think it's a really seminalmoment for the organisation.
I was fortunate enough to beinvolved in the 2014 Grand
Depart in Yorkshire and theslightly curious title of
Director of Readiness.
I'm not sure we were ever ready, but the race came and was
successful and that was aproject.
I mean it was phenomenallysuccessful.
The sun shone in Yorkshire.
I mean millions of people cameto the side of the road.

(43:54):
I mean it was quite incredible.
But I mean some of that, someof it was obviously planned and
some of it was sort oforganically happened.
What we didn't have in 2014 wasa long leading time.
What we have now we have morethan two years.
We have the ability to reachEngland, wales and Scotland.
We have six stages three in themen's, three in the women's.
It feels like a moment likenever before and it will be the

(44:18):
biggest free sports event everto come to the UK ever.
So you know it is a historicmoment and for us, hopefully,
the tide will rise and all boatswill rise from the staging of
it.
But British cycling needs to beproactive and really see this
as a really seminal moment andcertainly, for my part, I will
definitely play that role.

I'm really excited about it.
I'm, yeah, very, very excitedabout it.
But what?
What do you think the impact ofkind of the, the dynamics of tv
coverage is going to to make onthe world of cycling and and
your job?
So with that, you know, withwhat I mean by that is, you know
, the, the future loss of tourof france from mainstream tv,

(44:58):
but also, like I mean, unchainedhas obviously had amazing
impact on viewing figures, butnow we are apparently not going
to get any more Unchained, whichI'm very disappointed about.
So, you know, where does TVcoverage fit in all of this and
how do you think it could bebetter?

Jon Dutton (45:16):
It's significant, isn't it?
I mean there's a big debategoing on in the sport at the
moment, some of the rights beingmoved from free tour to behind
a paywall.
We obviously would campaign andadvocate for as many people to
see the sport as possible.
There's been a big transitionover the last probably 10 years
of young British talent, bothmen and women, who we used to
see on British roads, now we'reriding on the continent and

(45:37):
being incredibly successful andmore British riders than ever
before earning their living onthe continent.
What that means is we don't getto see them very often on
British roads.
So events like Tour of Britain,tour de France, are
opportunities to do that and weobviously want it to be
projected to the mass population.
So I think, media rights as awhole in sport while that is a

(45:58):
podcast, a subject all on itsown, I think from a cycling
perspective, you know we'restill hopeful that in 27 people
will be able to consume andenjoy that free to our.
That's not in our gift, butyeah, we'll definitely be part
of the conversation andhopefully the geography will
mean that people are not too faraway to actually come and
hopefully stand by the side ofthe road and see that moment.

(46:19):
But, yeah, we're super excitedto play a role.
An event to create visibility,an event to bring people
together I think that's superspecial.
You know, we can go all the wayback to talk about social
impact, social cohesion inparticular.
I remember in 2014, one of thebiggest projects was the knitted
bunting and people wereknitting yellow bunting and it

(46:42):
was amazing because it broughtpeople together, it was
intergenerational, it was aboutcelebrating civic pride, you
know.
Fantastic.
So we will be rolling out theknitted bunting project again
when the route is announced whatdo you think the the thing will
be then for the grand tour depart?

then do you think it, do you think there's going
to be a new theme to it, or Idon't, I don't know.

Jon Dutton (47:03):
Maybe we should put it out on the podcast.
If people have got ideas,please do send them in.
We probably need something abit more social media savvy,
don't we?
But I don't know.
Just that special thing aboutbringing people together and, I
think, the great thing aboutTour de France in my 30 years, I
don't think I've ever beeninvolved in a media launch we

(47:29):
did it a few weeks ago inedinburgh that's had such
positive sentiment and ittranscended.
It wasn't a cycling story, itwasn't a sport story, it was a
new story.
And, you know, even if you feltlike cycling, even if not a
bike or getting a bike, likejust this is an opportunity to
celebrate pride in place, tocelebrate everything that's
great about our nation, and Ithink that's really, really
compelling.

And, yeah, I can't , can't wait and and as part of
that will lots of you knowyou've talked about sort of the
social impact of this Are therelots of events that will be
going on around this, you know,start as well?

Jon Dutton (47:52):
Yeah, we hope so.
So, whether it's culturalheritage, just a festival
carnival atmosphere, and alsofor the areas of the UK that we
don't quite reach, is we wanteveryone to feel that they're
involved, that this is a verydemocratic project, isn't it
that that you know we're notasking people to pay and buy
tickets?
Um, so we want people to feelinvolved.

(48:13):
It's, yeah, really specialmoment.

I mean, I think it's going to be absolutely
incredible and very difficult tomeasure, isn't it?
If you're, if you haven't gotpeople paying for tickets, like,
how do you measure how manypeople turn up and get involved
in things as well?

Jon Dutton (48:24):
yeah, we.
I remember in 2014 quitesurreal moment.
I was in the the gold commandwhere the police put the
helicopter up and looked overwhole moss and there was a bit
of a moment of wow, we can'tcontrol the people.
You know there's no crowdsafety measures in place, but
people were coming out in justthousands and thousands of
people and, yeah, just try andthen roughly calculate how many

(48:47):
people that was.
But the event impact will showincredible economic impact
locally.

But if we can do that and create a social impact
as well through somestorytelling and some great
experiences, then that will bejob done you've you've talked a
lot about and I've listened toyou talk about kind of you you
know being this, you know thisentrepreneur within British
Cycling, this entrepreneurialthinking.
How difficult is that in a bigkind of structure such as

(49:14):
British Cycling to be and thinkin an entrepreneurial way?

Jon Dutton (49:19):
I don't think it is difficult at all, clara.
I think to enact it you've gotto build trust, you've got to
bring people with you.
I think there are conversationsI still have every day about oh
gosh, that's quite bold andbrave.
But yeah, I think you can thinkentrepreneurially that there is
a big desire to bring morecommercial revenue to the
organisation and as sponsorshipchanges, that doesn't

(49:42):
necessarily mean it has to besponsorship.
There's multiple different waysof driving revenue.
But yeah, I'm not going tochange who I am.
Some people, I'm sure, will tryand just slow me down a little
bit.
But if it's in the interest ofthe organisation, if it's
something that we can reach morepeople, if we can give people
better experiences, then it'sdefinitely worth pushing the
envelope as far as we can thenit's definitely worth pushing

(50:06):
the envelope as far as we can.

And what lessons do you think from from your role
in british cycling?
What do you think smallbusinesses, like small business
owners, could take away fromwhat you've learned within
british cycling?

Jon Dutton (50:15):
I think have a purpose.
I think have energy anddetermination.
I think have a plan, but don'tbe afraid to change the plan as
you navigate through.
It's just like riding a bike,isn't it?
Sometimes you want to go in astraight line and sometimes you
have to navigate around and andyeah, if you believe in
something, then give iteverything you've got.
I would always say I do a lotof speaking mainly to

(50:38):
undergraduates, people goingthrough a degree is follow your,
your dreams, and I trulybelieve that, and it's the same
for me.
I had a dream of wanting to bea professional athlete.
It didn't quite work out, but,rather than feel sorry for
myself, I've managed to curate acareer of which I've been
incredibly privileged and, yeah,I wouldn't change any of it.

Brilliant.
I mean, that's just greatadvice.
I think it's interesting thatyou've said, well, I advice.
I think it's and it'sinteresting that you've said,
well, I wanted to be aprofessional rugby player.
It didn't happen, but actuallythat desire to be a professional
rugby player has led you on tothis incredible career doing,
working in and around the sportsthat you love.
So it doesn't just because youfollow a dream.
It doesn't necessarily executein the way that you want it or

(51:22):
plan it to, but it, uh, it doesdrive you towards something
quite brilliant.
So I think that's fantastic.
You mentioned a particular bookearlier on.
Jim Collins is Good to Great.
I think it was the book you'rereferring to, and we always ask
guests what books have helpedthem on their journey.
So, aside from Good to Great,what other books have you found

(51:43):
yourself recommending to otherpeople or do you think stand out
in helping you?

Jon Dutton (51:49):
Oh gosh, I wasn't.
I'm not prepared for thatquestion, charlie.
I think James Kerr Legacy is agreat book.
I just like escapism for me.
I read lots of surreal fiction.
Magnus Mills is my favouriteand I love nothing more than I
find it quite hard to relax.
So I both cycle but also run.
I find that's a great way ofjust helping with mental

(52:12):
wellbeing.
But I love looking forward to aholiday and just being able to
read Escapism for me.
I will not be sat there withleadership, learning and manuals
and how to be a better person.
If I go on holiday, I wouldjust read escapist surrealism.

Which I think is also great advice for anyone
Like anyone that's checkingtheir emails or reading the work
stuff while on holiday is justyeah, I think that's a great
thing to do.
I was just going to say youlook like you're about to talk
about the checking your emailsbit on the holiday.

Jon Dutton (52:46):
No, I was just about to say I read a lot every day,
but I like to read short formcontent and just different
things, and this is a piece ofadvice that I do offer to people
beginning their career isyou've got to remain
contemporary, and I love toexplore and find things that
really stimulate your thinking.
So, whether it's a McKinseypiece we've done some work with

(53:08):
Deloitte, who do some amazingstuff or just whether it's stuff
that you stumble across andit's different, I also love to
go and hear people speak.
I went to an event last week.
It was a really fascinatingpresentation from Channel 4
talking about the exponentialgrowth in YouTube amongst Gen Z,
and from Channel 4 talkingabout the exponential growth in
YouTube amongst Gen Z, and thatto me, and I went away and then
I read the report afterwards andit made me think.

(53:28):
So, just stuff that stimulatesyou.
It doesn't always have to be aparticularly formal book, but
that contemporary knowledge.
I think as the world changes,you've got to yeah, just be
curious and change a bit.

And you mentioned James Kerr's Legacy,
which is an excellent book,obviously all about the
leadership, but written sort ofwoven through how the All Blacks
approach leadership.
Did you take any lessons fromthat that you found yourself
applying to either your approachto leadership or how you run?

Jon Dutton (53:58):
your teams.
I like the bit about stab me inthe belly, stab me in the back,
and that's definitely somethingI've used quite frequently,
particularly in buildingrelationships.
So people I've never met.
When I you remember coming toBritish Cycling, we employ I
think it's about 275 on thepayroll.
You know we're of a reasonablesize.
I hadn't met anyone and Iinherited an executive
leadership team, not met anyoneuntil the first day when I

(54:20):
arrived.
So building relationships, butthat just authenticity, no
surprises.
I just love that phrase.
I know it's probably quite achallenging phrase, but when you
read that chapter of how theAll Blacks decompress and how
they feed back and thatauthenticity always with respect
, I use an example from theRugby League World Cup of Tonga

(54:41):
playing Samoa, an example fromthe rubble league world cup of
tonga playing samoa and bothnations from the pacific having
what many people would call awar dance, they would say a
cultural celebration.
And they told us before thegame it's a sign of weakness to
go first, so we're not goingfirst.
And we said, well, hang on aminute, someone's got to go
first.
We were live on the bbc.
It was the middle game of three.
We were under some massive timepressures to get it kicked off

(55:03):
on time, and all I couldenvisage was just this standoff
between two groups of very bigmen.
And the most amazing thing isthey didn't need us to intervene
.
They worked it out themselvesand they went together, so it
wasn't a sign of weakness.
And then they beat the livinghell out of each other for 80
minutes and then they came backat the end and they formed a

(55:26):
circle in the centre and theyprayed together.
And I use that example a lot inbusiness of whether you get on,
whether you like each other ornot, you can always have really
tough, challenging conversations, but always with respect, and I
think if 34 big men for thePacific can do that, that shows
absolute respect.
And I think if 34 big men forthe pacific can can do that,
that shows absolute respect.

And I think james kerr really articulated
some of that with the all blacksI, I agree, I think I think
that's a brilliant and I'dactually I've referred to that
book quite a lot, but I've notkind of gone back to that
particular chapter of late.
So I think that's, I thinkthat's really powerful.
I I thought perhaps you weregoing to pull out the no
dickheads policy or the sweepthe sheds, but no, but it's a

(56:06):
really great book.
We have a closing tradition onthis podcast where the last
guest asks the next guest aquestion without knowing who
that is going to be.
So our last guest was AlistairBrownlee, and I think Claire has
got Alistair's question linedup and I think Claire has got
Alistair's question lined up.

Jon Dutton (56:27):
Yeah, so Alistair's question is what does
contentment mean to you?
What does contentment mean tome?
Gosh, gosh.
That's a very thought-provokingquestion, isn't it?
I think contentment to me isself-fulfillment, but a balance
between, like, professionalachievements and personal
achievements, and I know we talka lot about work-life balance,

(56:49):
if such a thing exists.
But you know, I keep remindingmyself, and I've said it to lots
of other people, you know,family is the most important
thing.
We make ourselves busy and wecome to work and we prepare and
we do our best and we're veryproud of our professional
achievements, but you know,there is life.
Life is more important thancoming to work.
So contentment to me would befeeling a sense of achievement,

(57:13):
feeling proud of my family andfeeling that, when I eventually
step off and finish myprofessional career, that I've
helped people along the way andmade people feel good.

I think that's.
That's brilliant.
I think I think the mistake.
I think there is a such a thingas work-life balance.
I think there's lots of peoplethat say there's no such thing
as work-life balance becausethey don't have work-life
balance.
But I think if you make a planto put family first and have you
know like even so, you can set.

(57:44):
I would set goals in thosedifferent areas of life, not
just in business, as a lot ofpeople would do, or in fitness.
So I think that's absolutelybrilliant.
I think it's really important.
I suppose I just want to finishoff with one last question,
which is if you were to go backand give your sort of
21-year-old self some advice,what would it be?

Jon Dutton (58:07):
It would be follow your dreams and try and navigate
through life, feeling proud ofyour achievements and doing your
very best.
And you know, I think thatadvice would still stand today.
I've had an amazing career,absolutely amazing 30 years,
been incredibly privileged, butit has been that sense of
following my dreams and everynow and again you get punched in

(58:29):
the face metaphorically, andit's hard, and I think the more
you, I guess, climb the ladder,the more you get into more
senior positions, the more it islonely and I often reflect that
sometimes it feels prettylonely being the leader.
I wouldn't change anything atall and I've had such amazing
opportunities.
I remember one of my favouriteopportunities 2010,.

(58:51):
We organised the World BlindFootball Championships, the
Royal National College for theBlind in Hereford, which was
qualified for London.
2012, met a most amazing mancalled Dave Clark.
Dave is now Chief Executive ofParalympics GB.
Dave was the England captainand I will remember that for the
rest of my life and that was anevent.
We had 900 spectators every day, so not the 74,000 that we had

(59:11):
at Old Trafford, but the skills,things I learned about myself,
the skills but that's amazingand I would love to live that
all over again.
So yeah, follow your dreamswould always be my advice
brilliant, john.

It's been an absolute privilege chatting to
you.
I've really loved talking.
I think what you're doing withbritish cycling is amazing.
What you achieve with the withthe rugby league world cup was
also absolutely incredible,particularly given the, given
the, the headwind of well,multiple headwinds, as you've
described.
I actually actually thinkBritish Cycling, as I'm seeing
it firsthand with Bronwyn, islike it seems to be like digging

(59:50):
into it.
It seems to be this much bigger, wider, all-encompassing
organisation than I'dappreciated, and I think that
it's so fantastic and it's sucha great opportunity.
I'm going to be cycling thelength of the country in a few
weeks' time and I just thinkit's so fantastic and it's such
a great opportunity.
I'm going to be cycling thelength of the country in a few
weeks time and and I just thinkit's such an amazing way of
seeing the what you never seethat much of the cut.

(01:00:11):
Well, unless you're going torun Land's Edge, which is not
many people are going to do, butequally, if you drive it, you
ain't going to see it Like yousee it on a front or from a bike
.
It is such a.
It's such a wonderful thing.
So, yeah, I, I think it's.
I really look forward to whatyou're going to deliver in terms
of the the grande part, and Ithink everything that you're
planning, particularly on the onthe social impact side of

(01:00:32):
british cycling, is fantastic.
So a huge thank you for forcoming on the podcast and doing
what you're doing thanks so much.

Jon Dutton (01:00:39):
Thank you, cloud, thank you charlie, thanks for
the opportunity.
It's been a really enjoyableconversation.
So what did you make?

Charlie Reading (01:00:43):
of the interview with john.
So much, thank you, claire.
Thank you, charlie.
Thanks for the opportunity.
It's been a really enjoyableconversation.
So what did you make of theinterview with John?

Claire Fudge (01:00:46):
So much.
I always write, you know, lotsof little notes, things I want
to remember, things to talkabout afterwards and my page is
full because there was so muchthere to take away.
Do you know, one of the I thinkone of the biggest things that
came across to me is like, as aleader, he comes across and he

(01:01:07):
speaks about this, but hisauthenticity he's he is leading
in a very authentic way andchanging things as he goes and
the way he talks about you knowvalues and purpose and I know
you know every leader, everybusiness, right like everyone,
talks about values, culture,purpose.
I think it can become somethingthat in business, everyone just
has a page on.
Nobody really lives by it, butthe way that he was talking

(01:01:29):
about it today that that, to me,is the biggest thing was this
authenticity.
And also I loved his like softapproaches and that's what you
called it, didn't he?
And was his TLC, trust, loyaltyand anything beginning to see
essentially, um.
So it got my mind thinking alittle there, but it all goes,
apparently, so yeah.

I agree.
I thought he was brilliant inthe sense of like, when he
described when they had to makea decision around the Rugby
World Cup and they just cameback to their values and they
went from 4v4 to a majority ofnine, because you know all of
them, all I don't know four Vfour doesn't add up to nine, but
that was with the chair.

(01:02:08):
But that that ability to makedecisions through the value
framework is really powerful andI and I love the way that he
was measuring through thehappiness index, the culture as
well.
I thought that was that wasreally interesting and I think
there's definitely something Ithink this is the greatest

(01:02:31):
takeaway I think that I tookfrom it is that the more
businesses can really not justdefine their values, their
purpose, their culture, but alsolive and breathe it and have
everyone in the business reallybe able to say, well, this is
what it means to be a part ofthis organization and this is
the you know the frameworkaround which I'm going to make
any decision I have to make.
It's really powerful becauseyou know the business, the

(01:02:54):
people in the business knowtheir why and then they're much
more likely to go out and dosomething that's difficult, so I
thought that was.
I thought it was really good,really really interesting, and,
yeah, difficult, so I thoughtthat was.
I thought it was really good,really really interesting and
yeah, and I thought a reallyfascinating story around the
World Cup as to how they usethat in a practical way to make
a very difficult decision.
What else did you get from theconversation?

there was some, there were lots of bit actually
from my, from my area of workand work in mental health, but
also work in like behaviorchange, because it's a huge part
of the way that I certainlyhelp to make change or help
change and transformation inclients.
And he was talking about like hewas using, like the theory of
change, different behaviorchange techniques within his

(01:03:34):
like leadership as well.
So that to me I didn't ask manyquestions about it, but that
was really fascinating and and Icould see I mean obviously you
know the business of enduranceas a podcast, you know I could
really see like this idea ofsome of those techniques that
used and played out withprofessional athletes in terms

(01:03:55):
of behavior change, the theoryof change, and then he's using
it within his leadership teamwith sport, like that.
To me I was like wow, these arelike the, you know, all these
like foundational elements andpieces of the jigsaw and he's
just like naturally veryslotting, you know, slotting
them into place.
So and I think, yeah, I thinkthis just shows sort of the way

(01:04:17):
that he has really shaped sortof British cycling, as he's, you
know, as he's been CEO.
I will say what was yourthoughts on the social impact
side of British Cycling and kindof what he's wanting to be able
to do.

I think it's brilliant and it's not something
until I started doing moredigging on what British Cycling
were doing.
It's not something that I everreally thought of linking them
to.
I mean, if I'm honest, untiluntil, well, brahmin started
cycling on the track and also mejoining my local cycling club,
which I've only done relativelyrecently because I I was a part

(01:04:55):
more, my cycling gang weren'twasn't a club, so until I
started digging into that, Ididn't really know a huge amount
about what they did outside of,obviously, the elite stuff.
But I think it's brilliant andI think and we didn't really
talk about it in the interviewbut their plan is to organize a
whole lot more of the events tobring more and more people into

(01:05:19):
cycling, because it is such afantastic way and particularly
with, you know, the the adventof e-bikes, it is such a
fantastic way of getting peopleout.
You know, not everybody can gofor a run, particularly, you
know, if you're old or you'vebeen injured or whatever.
So it is such a brilliant wayof getting exercise in a in a
low impact way, and so thinkit's a it's an amazing tool for

(01:05:43):
change and I think you know,you've only got to go to a city
like Amsterdam and you go.
This is a better city as longas you don't get hit by a bike.
This is a better city becauseof the bikes as opposed to
because of, you know, beingjammed full of cars.
So I think there's there's somuch great stuff there that you
know that they're doing andplanning, and what did you make

(01:06:06):
of it?

I loved it.
I loved all the different likeelements and actually having
having done some work with someof the development team so I've
had a couple of athletes on thedevelopment teams, like your
daughter, and so I actually hadhad kind of new, quite sort of
the inner workings of all thedifferent areas that they that
they have been in.
And you know, I think there areso many levels aren't there in

(01:06:31):
terms of where they're workingfrom right up here, in terms of,
you know, feeding into thatprofessional Olympic pathway and
developing the really tiny totsas well.
You have everything in there.
And keeping the really tinytots as well.
You have everything in there.
And keeping the oldergeneration.
Let's not forget them.
Because you know you've got,and I'm sure you probably have
them in your cycling club, youknow, like the 80-year-olds that
are out on a bike.

(01:06:52):
Still, I mean that is justamazing to keep everything from
like literally I can't eventhink of the age they start
working with them at, but youknow, if that's developing them
on, you know, a tiny little bikeat the age of five or seven and
then you've got 80-year-oldcycling.
I mean it just spans age groups, doesn't it?
It's just, yeah, unreal.

It's incredible , and so that 27 million figure
of the number of people in theUK that have got on a bike in
the last year.
It's just incredible, isn't it?
I mean it's way beyond.
I mean, yeah, that blew my mind, and I think it's amazing.
And the other thing I loved waswhen we were talking about books

(01:07:33):
and he referred to two greatbooks James Kerr's Legacy For
anyone that wants to kind oflearn more about leadership,
then that is a brilliant book.
And then Good to Great by JimCollins is a phenomenal book.
But the stab me in the bellynot the back being his first
sort of principle as to when hewent into British cycling, had
all of these employees that he'dnever met before and he was

(01:07:55):
like right, you know, that's,that's I want you to.
You know, if something's notgoing right, tell me to my face,
not behind my back, that's agreat way of leading a business,
and, yeah, I think there's alot to be learned from that.
It's certainly gone up, hasn'tit?

The Uber and the.

Invermig.
It's certainly been a growthbusiness, hasn't it?
Jeez, yeah, yeah.
Having been in London, I saidexactly that in London the
weekend.
Yeah, the weekend.
Yeah, I'm not sure where, where, the, where the line is drawn,
but yeah, no, brilliant, and Ithink, yeah, it's just really
exciting in terms of what'sgoing on with, you know, things
like the grande part and and allthe other stuff they've got

(01:08:31):
planned.
So, yeah, another amazinginterview from an incredible man
that has achieved a huge amountin the world of business, but
the world of business in sport.
So, for everyone else, keep ontraining.

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