March 10, 2025 • 52 mins
John and Ann describe how they navigated his Bipolar Disorder in their marriage. Bipolar disorder is also referred to as manic-depressive disorder because it is characterized by extreme shifts in mood with highs and lows that impact a person's ability to function normally. An estimated 2.8 percent of the population has bipolar disorder. In Part 2, Ann describes the heavy weight of caring for her husband and the family without his help. After finding support, she learned how to care for herself by setting boundaries. John then had to make hard choices about managing his illness. Their journey from almost divorcing to renewing their vows offers couples hope in successfully navigating mental illness together. #bipolarinmarriage #healthyrelationships #difficultmarriage
Mental Health Strong https://mentalhealthstrong.com/ National Alliance on Mental Illness (NAMI) https://www.nami.org Re|engage study for strengthening marriages. https://www.reengage.org/ "10 Lifesaving Principles for Women in Difficult Marriages" by Karla Downing https://a.co/d/eSSsUlQ Karla Downing's classes https://www.changemyrelationship.com/current-and-upcoming-classes/
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
You're listening to a podcast by ChangeMy Relationship, featuring
licensed marriage and family therapistand author Karla Downing.
These podcast are designed to provide youwith practical solutions
based on biblical truthsfor all your relationships.
Today, Karla will be interviewing a guestwho has experienced
a relationship problemand successfully worked through it.
(00:29):
So we are backChange My Relationship podcast.
And we are going to do part two with Johnand Anne
who are talking about, their marriage
with his diagnosis of bipolar disorderand how they navigated that.
And truly a remarkable story.
If you haven't heard part one, pleaselisten to it.
(00:49):
They talked about when they metand what the early marriage was like
and what it was like putting the, first
episode happenedand as they were navigating through that.
But in this, this part,we're really going to focus more on
kind of what we call the solution.
It's like what I,what did, and do that kind of
made a turning point for herand gave her some new tools
(01:13):
and, that she could useto figure out how to respond to it.
And then, what are some of the thingsthat John was able to do
that has gotten them to the pointthey were at?
And they'll tell you about some really,really positive
events in their marriageand what it's like now.
And it's it's really a success story.
It's really wonderful.
(01:34):
And with us,just to recap, in the first, interview,
they were told,they said by every counselor
that they went to that they shouldwould that they would probably divorce,
that people do not stay marriedwhen there's a diagnosis like this.
Yeah. They found that very discouraging.
And, Anne
was saying that she's had a hard timefinding any groups that are supportive,
(01:58):
mental health strong.
Is that the one you were talking about?That does happen.
Yeah, that is correct.
Yeah.
So I'll put the mental healthstrong in Nami in the notes.
But, in the, in the podcast notes,but yes.
And that it's very hardto find those things that so
the fact that you guys have come outand you have, such, wonderful marriage
now and it's so much stronger and, it'sit's really remarkable and it's really
(02:23):
I, I want people toto hear it, to know that it's possible.
So okay, so we kind of left offwith talking about what it was
like with you and taking careof the five children in the home.
And while he was still, pretty depressed,
lethargic, sleeping a lotand that type of thing.
(02:44):
So let's start withyou came to my classes about that time.
Yeah.
You learned some tools that helped you,and this didn't happen overnight.
I mean, this took quite a few yearsof you. Yes.
learning them, figuring out how toplay them because you learn the principles
and then you figure outhow do they work in my situation,
(03:07):
but at the same time,you also get healthy yourself.
Yeah.
Because if you don't get healthy yourself,
you're going to keep doing thingsthe way that you were.
And it's going to continueto, be not healthy for you,
because you're pretty exhaustedand mentally.
Yeah.
And you were telling me,I don't know if I can stay.
(03:29):
Yeah, I can do that is true.
And I thinkwhen one of the things when you were
if I hope it's okay to say this,but I think what that was,
usually when somebody tells methat, I'll say, well, where could you go?
And you were like,I probably have to move in with my mom,
with my five kids, far awayfrom all my friends and their friends.
(03:52):
And that will be a little bit crazyto live with my mom with five kids.
And, we don't I don't have a lot of moneyto have a choice to do that.
So had you had a lot of money or hado you,had just have like
an easy place to step outor have you might have just been like,
yeah, I'm going to go, yeah.
But yeah.
(04:13):
And you also knew that that wouldn'tbe the best for your kids, but
you still wanted it to workif you could, like. Yes.
You, if that divorce is not a happy thing,divorce is a sad ending.
Yeah. it is so many ways.
So that you cameand you were ready to learn.
So tell me aboutsome of the things you learned
(04:34):
and how you appliedthem and why they helped.
So I would
say Iwasn't ready to learn in the beginning
because I was so tired
and so emotional and so just broken.
I really came in the beginning
because someone else there listen to me.
(04:58):
The small groups had other womenin difficult marriage
that were able to listen,and they didn't judge me.
They didn't think I was an awful personfor possibly wanting to leave or for
complaining about his sleepingor the mental illness or whatever.
(05:18):
And so in the beginning,if you talk to a few of my group mates,
they'll say that I cried every week.
Every week.
I cried probably for the first year,because it was just
my only place to talk to another adult,because I was around kids all day
and talk to someone elsewho at least somewhat understood.
(05:41):
And then you have the aspectof your teachings and the coursework
that I did throughout the weekand that really sustain me in my focus,
because it was really easyto look at all the bad.
It was really easy to crawl into that holeand just be sad and give up.
(06:03):
I love school, I like learning.
So it was, it was really goodfor me to take it out and to read the book
and to do the questions,and that is what sustained me.
I think it just,I mean, I, I probably took the class,
at least three years in a row.
So that would be, what, six, 6or 8 classes?
In a row.
(06:24):
And then then it
started settling in like thenthe truths were real.
They weren't just pretend or metrying to pretend.
So in the beginning, having supportwas very important to someone else
I could talk to havingsomebody speak truth into me.
That was not, Christian ease was not.
(06:46):
I'm doing it wrong.
Was not, toughen upand just pray about it.
Like having truths,biblical truth were huge for me
because then I wasn't at fault.
I had so many people in my lifetelling me that I was
causing his mental illness and that it.
And, it was close friends
(07:07):
and family, and it itit was so disheartening.
But to to go to class every week and hearthat it wasn't my fault to learn
that other women had these difficulties toto learn that there was hope.
If if we could work it out.
But I had to stop crying.
Like I had to get my own self
(07:28):
out of that hurt and out of that pit.
Psalm 40,I said to myself over and over again,
because he pulled me out of the mire.
He pulled me out of the pit.
He set my feet on solid ground.
It may have taken me 3 or 4 years
to get on solid ground,but I knew that his hand was holding me.
And a lot of that has to do with the truththat I was learning
(07:52):
every week in your class as far as, like,
how I was supposed to get better.
But I think thatI guess that's the first step.
I learned that I had to get better first.
I remember having a conversationwith someone, in Care Ministries
and I was complaining about my husbandnot wanting to work,
(08:12):
sleeping all day, and yada yada yada.
And he said, well, that's all good,but what what are you doing?
And I was like,what do you mean, what am I doing?
It's not my fault.
And he was like,yeah, you need to be taking care of you,
and you need to be making surethat you are healthy.
So seeing a counselor myself was helpful,but there was still
no truths in the counseling.
(08:33):
It was a lot of me talking, but no truth.
So once I I started reading,especially women A Difficult Marriage
and going through the chapterslearning how to detach
from his, reactionsor his choices, were huge
because then when he chose to sleep,it wasn't personal, right?
(08:54):
I always felt like he was choosingto not love me at that moment.
So he was going to sleep,or he was choosing to not want to be
a part of Christmas morningbecause it was too much work for him.
But honestly, it was the mental illness.
But at the time, being so enmeshed
in his illnessas if it was my cause or something
(09:17):
that I could fixwas the mistake that I made.
So detaching was huge for me.
Realizingthe lies that I was telling myself
in my head that I could fix it,
that, that I needed to do better, that I,
instead of letting God take over for thatand putting the appropriate boundary
(09:41):
after I set the boundariesclass, between myself and my husband,
it was the only way that we then startedto see improvement for both of us.
I finally had a boundary that said,
you take your meds or you can't stay here.
You get up and shower every day.
(10:02):
You, try to find a job like we had.
I had a list and I had a time frame,
and then he didn't take me so seriously.
And then I remember, after having gonethrough the class a few times,
I asked you,what do I do if he doesn't do it?
What if I do, what do I do if he doesn'tget out of bed?
(10:24):
What if I do
if he doesn't take a shower, what if Iwhat do I do if he doesn't take his meds?
then what?
I think I just assumed thatif I told him he would do it.
That's obviously we know that's not true.
But at the time, I really hadconvinced myself that that was true.
And so when he didn't do it,we had a moment, I think,
(10:46):
I had a moment with you, actually,and you said
you need to tell him that he has todo this, or he can't stay there anymore.
And I was like,what no Christian woman in the church
would ever say if they don't blah,blah, blah, they can't stay there anymore.
Or, butit honestly was what we both needed.
(11:09):
So I sat him down on the couchand I told him, look,
you haven't done what we talked about,and you're not stepping up.
You're not getting a job,you're not trying to get out of bed.
You'renot trying to take care of yourself.
So you can't live here anymore.
And what did you say?
Well, I actually heard those words, and I.
(11:30):
I was angry and sad.
I was like, what are you talking about?
This is, I know I can't be this bad.
You can't be this bad, right? Yeah.
I was in shock, and and I was, I was angryand I refused to leave, actually.
So mental pictureor physical or mental picture here he.
He crossed his arms.
(11:51):
He sat on the couch in a huffand he said, I'm not leaving
and you can't make me,
okay, I guess I did that, but, well,
that is pretty much how I, it's like I wasI was, hit with kind of an ultimatum.
And I remember thinking to myself
during the process,I don't think it was instantly,
(12:11):
but I thought to myself,
if I don't change, I'm goingto lose everything that I love.
And that ultimatumwas very helpful to get me,
off the couch, give me up.
And trying, and making me
make the choiceto keep what I loved in my life,
(12:32):
which was my wife and my kids and and,I had,
a whole bunch of emotions, like,we built this together.
You can't just tell meto get out. I'm not.
we were.
It takes two to make five children,And and it takes two to pay bills.
And then we have a house togetherand all these things, and
and there was a selfish side that I said,no, I don't want to lose this.
(12:53):
And, and so it left me with the choicethat I had to make the change in me
that was necessaryto stand up and and get healthy
and make good choices and shower
and, get off the couch and get work
and get backto being successful again, in life,
and so it was a really helpful, outcome
(13:15):
that let us, yeah,it was definitely a turning point.
Yeah. Situation.
I we re retalked about boundariesat that time because I was like,
what do you mean you're not leaving?
You'reyou're supposed to say, okay, I'll leave.
Like, why are you not leaving?
And that's when I came to youand said, he's not going to leave.
I have to leave.
(13:37):
I have to take the kids and leave.
But I really didn't have an option.
Like, I really didn't.
My my parents lived 45 minutes away,and the kids are in school, and I just.
I just couldn't leave.
So I remember that the the
the chapters on speaking my truth,
(13:59):
and so I sat him down
on, on another occasion because thenI wasn't so angry that he said no.
And I said, okay,if you're going to stay then.
And we outlined boundaries again.
And I said,
I'm out.
I'm not helping you anymore.
(14:19):
This is all on you.
I have to take care of our childrenbecause you're not.
And I walked out.
It was little more than ten words, butI really tried to do less than ten words.
But I walked out, and.
And then I did.
I checked out, I was done,he was going to do it or he wasn't.
And this was where he was going to provethat he could.
(14:41):
And I was going to do my bestto take care of myself,
to take care of our children
what they needed, and, practicegetting myself healthy.
And he did take some baby steps.
Not right away, but he did take some babysteps, got out of bed and,
eventually got a job.
(15:03):
Yeah.
I mean, I think, if you're hearing thisand you're as a listener
and you're hearing theany similarity to this, we're not saying
that the person with the mental illnessdoesn't need time to heal.
Know for sure that's true.There's going to be a downtime.
There's going to be a down, periodwhere the person's down for the count
(15:23):
and they but the the reality isyou got to get up at some point.
You've got to you've got to stand up and
will yourself or change your mindsetor do something,
get your medicinescorrect and, get with psychiatrist,
get with psychologist,get with counselors, get with friends, and
(15:49):
and work hard at building your,
building back up to a stronger point.
And you just can't stay down.
Yeah. Right.
I when restating that a different way,I would, I would say
the the family doesn'thave to take anything and everything
and suffer and be harmedwhile the person with mental illness
(16:13):
or any addiction or any problem gets
to do whatever they need to do
without accountabilityand without having to take responsibility.
So we have to have lots of compassion,
which I think that Anne demonstratedthat she had she loved you.
She tried to keep the family together.
(16:33):
She was trying to help you.
She, had, compassion for that.
But she couldn't do it anymore.
It was just absolutely overwhelmingand starting to affect her too negatively.
and we haven't talked about howwhen this is
happening, resentment grows
because, I mean, what you're talking aboutis your wife isn't your wife anymore.
(16:56):
She's your caregiver and caregiver.
Don't feel like having sex withtheir people that they are taking care of.
They don't feel like,being intimate and close and sharing.
You're not sharing things as husbandand wives,
really like,like like your mother or your caregiver.
And that's not healthy.
So it does break down your relationshipto for it to be like this.
(17:21):
But I so I think that, it has,it has a lot of inhibiting,
impacts on your relationship.
And obviously you're not you were not back
then where you are today, which is your
in a happy marriagewhere you're, you still got.
So we all do right. Yeah.
you can tell that there's, there's giveand take and interaction and my guess is
(17:44):
you were not talking about thissituation this way back then.
No, no, no what what were you saying?
Not much to me.
Yeah. Not much to me.
He had a lot ofof these thoughts internally.
So honestly, it wasn't until years laterthat I knew what he was thinking.
(18:06):
Then.
It's in in nature, I mean, typical.
It's just hard for himto have express his emotion.
So adding that all in with the illnessat that time,
I definitely didn't have a two.
We didn't have a two way conversationvery often.
I'm a very internal, cerebraltype of thinking type of person.
I don't know if that has anything to dowith the mental illness, but I.
(18:29):
I cycle and think through
lots of different scenariosand options and situations and kind of,
mentally challenged and all the,you know, I'm very high functioning.
I've been a performer and,
excelled in work and success and careersand things that,
that think, still, it doesn't mean thatI'm a crippled individual, necessarily.
(18:53):
But it is.
But but, yeah, youyou still can be a high functioning person
and have mental illnessissues, and, and emotions.
Sorry. Good.
With bipolar disorder, you, you tendto have people that are, highly creative
and, yeah, your, your musical sideand your performing side.
And so that really and, a lot of thoughtsyou probably are a,
(19:18):
person who's not an introvert, probablyan introvert instead of an extrovert.
You do a lot of your own internalthinking.
And yeah, I was more extrovertedwhen I was younger, but
I became introverted extremelyafter the mental illness.
The so I became very inwardfocused and became
I work from homenow on a side job and stuff like that.
(19:39):
I, I became very introvertedbecause I didn't know
what I was dealing withand I didn't want to have a,
an episode in front of somebodyoutside in the public.
Yeah, that kind of thing.
So and I became very cautiousabout how I held myself.
Yeah.
And you were anxious,so the anxiety keeps you from,
like,go out and interact and stuff like that.
(20:00):
So, yeah, it has a lot of ramifications.
So so you he told youyou had to start doing it on your own,
and you were first angry,and then you were motivated, and then I'm
sure it like you said, it took a whilefor you to get to where you could do that.
But what are you telling yourself?
I have to do thisor I'm going to lose my family?
(20:20):
Or was there a point
where you started to be like,this is good for me, I want to do this.
I mean, butwhat would you think that was years later?
That was years later,and now I'm kind of thriving again,
even though I've had multiple experienceswith, paranoia,
anxiety, different episodeswe could call smaller in scale than 2010,
(20:42):
but had many different, experiences
that are medical, experiences.
I'm still in a much better place.
I've we've come to discover
with the psychiatry that I neededa very little dose of medicine,
a very small amountof, regular, consistent medicine.
I was diagnosed once we, moved,and that's kind of a whole nother
(21:04):
topic, but, we we did kind of lose
our house and move, as a couple.
But you're saying thatwhen we were in the, other home,
the psychiatrist we saw thereprescribed something different.
And when we got here, insurancedidn't cover that medication.
And so the psychiatristthat we ended up with here
(21:27):
gave him a sample of somethingbecause we didn't have any money.
Neither of us had jobsto pay for anything.
So he he took samples of this new med,
and it was like, night and day.
It was.
It was such a God thing that the insurancedidn't cover the other one
because he, he, like, woke up,
(21:48):
and, and was able to,
like,look me in the eye and was able to like,
read body language againand care about like
what he looks likeand what our home looked like.
And wanted to go to churchlike it was just
it did help to be in a new state,a new city, a new church.
(22:11):
Absolutely.
We didn't have the eyes that we thoughtwere watching us before.
It doesn't mean that people don'tknow, here, but less people know
because we're we're more careful on whowho we trust that
we test the water before we tell them,because we don't need that again.
Like we're we're starting over,we're fresh.
(22:32):
And now with this new medication,we also, added in lithium on top of that.
And believe it or not,it's been a miracle.
All because we can add and subtract
that a little bitand we can stop an episode.
And beforewe didn't know we could do that.
So that has been huge since Covidin the last five years.
(22:54):
To be able to say, I think you're cycling
right now,you didn't really sleep last night.
Are you okay?
Checking in.
Did you take your sleeping pill?
And we can call the psychiatristand she can say, yeah,
he seems a little anxious.
Let's just add, like, a half fora couple days and help him to calm down.
(23:14):
And it's taken us straight out of
that.
Could have been full blown episodes intojust maybe a week or so.
Instead of years.
Like it used to be.
Wonderful. Yeah, yeah.
Because usually you've got to treat it
with anti-psychoticsbut also mood stabilizer and so lithium.
(23:35):
Right. So we are. Yeah.
He has all he has all of thatplus an antidepressant.
Yeah.
So we have anti-psychotic the lithiumthen with, depression and anxiety.
Yeah. And then yeah. Yeah, yeah,I think so.
Because a lot of that makes you not wantto sleep or not be able to sleep.
Yeah. Right. So he does take the well.
(23:58):
And I was also diagnosedafter the move with diabetic as well.
And I was attributing some of the thingsthis is the lack of knowledge that we had.
I was attributing a lot of my side effectsand my sleeping on the couch
and my tirednessto some sort of mental illness problem.
Well, when you eat ten Oreo cookies
with, diabetic, you're going to sleepon the couch, five minutes later.
(24:22):
So, I was eating unhealthy.
I was, having sugarthat immediately would put me to sleep.
So just as a side note,if you have any other health issues,
make sure that those are clearly definedin your life as well.
Yeah.
So that you can identifythat it's not always mental illness
that's causing the side effect. Yeah.
But you may have other health issues.Yeah.
(24:43):
It doesn't get like okay. Anything.
Right, right.
And what you're the waythat you're interacting right now,
you're talking about like,what he's doing with his meds.
You're giving him feedbackabout what you're seeing.
Like, you're, yeah, you'rekind of manic or, you're saying things
that aren't making sense,but there's a difference from before.
(25:03):
You're not taking responsibilityfor all of that with him.
You're partnering with him. Right.
And like you would do with a husbandand wife as partners,
we support each other and we knowwhat's going on with each other.
And when somebody does has mental illness,they do need the other person.
The same thing with the diabetes.
(25:24):
You would say, it seems like you're,go into the bathroom a lot.
you're you. Yeah.
I think you're you're going in theretoo much to urinate.
I think there's something going onor you seem like you're kind of out of it.
Are you in a sugar coma? so it's you.
You give feedback and you work together,
but you're not taking responsibilitybecause he's participating fully, right?
(25:49):
And and I wouldI would say that was something I struggled
with for a long time.
And I could see that others would strugglebecause
I want him to be responsible for himself100%.
He's not my child, right?
But when I was fully hands off,
(26:09):
like when I said, you do it,I'm walking right?
There were some things he couldn't doby himself, right?
And I was mad for a long timethat he couldn't do them by himself.
You are a grown up.
You should be able to. But
fast forward to
now, where we, like yousaid, we engage in conversation.
(26:30):
I'll say,I think you were upset last night.
probably shouldn't be sending an emailin the middle of the night, Are you okay?
Or being proactivein reaching out to a stressor, like,
we had a couple that we're very close withthat was causing immense stress for him.
And I just reached out to them and said,look, you need to back off.
(26:51):
This is too much for him right now.
You can talk to me or you can not.
Or you can wait, but you cannottalk to him about that right now.
And he just needed to breathe.
He needed to have, the cycle over.
And we needed to talk about it rationally.
And then we went back to them andwe were ready to have the conversation.
But prior to this healthiness,I would have been mad
(27:14):
that he couldn'tjust tell them to leave him alone,
or that he couldn't just,see that he didn't sleep last night like,
It seems silly
now, but at the time,I just wanted him to be a grown up
and not have to take care of himlike that. But.
But you're right in knowing thatnow that we are in a partnership,
(27:35):
and I would expect him to take care of me
the same wayI would want to take care of him.
If that were me.
And, but I think it also has to dowith recognize.
Oh, acceptance, grievingthe grief process.
You guys, I talk about the grief processa lot now. Yes.
And more and more.It's a huge part of this.
(27:55):
Like when you're recognizing anything,it could be like even when your son was
diagnosed with that illness as a child,you've got to go through a grief process.
But when you recognize
that you've got mental illness,mental illness is not going to be cured.
It's there to stay.
It can be treated,but it's not going to be cured.
And it is going to affect your life.
(28:17):
And that is the reality.
But you have to go through the denial,the anger, the bargaining.
John has to go through it too.
And then the sadnessand then the acceptance.
And once you're on the other sidewith the acceptance of, okay,
this is in our lives,this is will be a part of our marriage,
we have to figure out how to kind of dothis.
(28:40):
That acceptance allows you to look at itand say, now, what can we do?
And with you guysboth working together, yeah, it
it becomes possible.
Yeah.
When I first took that class
at the very beginning,after his first episode on bipolar,
they talked about the grief processand the people leading
(29:03):
the class talked about acceptance,and I thought they were crazy.
I was like, no way will I ever get there.
I was so upset.
I was so disheartened.
There was so many things.
And I went back and forth in the griefprocess all around and around.
I honestly probably didn't make itto acceptance until a few years ago.
(29:28):
And this is this has been 14 years.
It it it's a process and it's definitely
you have to allow yourself
grace and you have to allow yourselfto feel what you're feeling.
Yes, but I wanted to stay in that.
It's not fair stage.
I wanted to stay in the,This is not supposed to be how it is.
(29:53):
This is not the fairy taleI dreamed about.
This is not who I married.
This is not what I signed up for.
And none of that is true.That is just that.
That is not true. I.
I fell in love with him.
I chose him, we chose each other.
God placed us together.
It was definitely not a mistake.
(30:13):
And we are exactly rightfor what each other needs.
But in the middle of the grief process,we both
didn't believe that it's just taken,
I don't know, maybe
12 yearsor more to come to that acceptance.
And then we can see it from a healthyperspective, set appropriate boundaries
(30:35):
and give appropriate graceand all of the things that come with that.
And then for you to then, John,you had to go through the grief process
and accepting this.
Are you at a place of acceptancewhere you are fully?
Yeah for sure. Yeah.
There's a there's a stage where, they sayI'm one of your you're telling me
(30:57):
I'm one of those guys that is on medicinethe rest of their life?
Or, if I'm off the medicine, it'sgoing to go crazy again
or whatever, that kind of thing.
There's this. This.
I'm not one of those guys.I. That's not me.
I'm a high functioning, performing,successful guy, that that kind of thing.
And I've come to accept that.
(31:18):
I definitely have something that,I've been given, genetically,
whatever you want to call it,that's come out, that, I deal with
and that, comes outwith anxiety, depression,
paranoia, different, different symptomsthat we've been able to identify.
But having a proper diagnosis,having proper medicine, having, a care of
(31:39):
someone in your lifethat you can turn to for
helping you identifywhat's going on, that's a, a partner.
in this situation, is totally necessaryfor me to be able to thrive.
And I'm so grateful.
I mean, wewe moved out here, and we took a class
three times,through our church called reengage.
(32:02):
I think it's funny that it's calledreengage because I always didn't engage.
Yeah, and reengage was a, couple studyon relationships
16 and 16 weeks where you get intosmall groups with, other couples,
you hear their stories in a small group,private setting, and everybody,
expresses in a counseling settingwhat they're going through
(32:24):
and what they've dealt with.
And I got to sit therein the first session
and listen to everybody's affairsand all these different problems,
and things like that and go, well,I don't look that bad after all.
Do I, and
but, each session did, we did itthree times.
It really helped us reengage
as a couple, reignitethe flame of love between each, ourselves.
(32:45):
Yeah.
And get to a place where we understoodthat it's a covenant relationship
that we've made,not a contract that you can just rip up.
God. Basically,
my my personal opinion is that marriageis like your relationship with the Lord.
with God that,if you can't stay married for a lifetime,
how are you going to loveGod for an eternity?
(33:06):
there's a there's a marriage, covenantthat you make with each other
to try to go through thick and thinand have health issues, and it's like
a sick or healthy or whateverthe vows are, that you, go through.
But ultimately, I feel like we started
with a typical marriage issuesand, and challenges, faced
(33:26):
many left hand turns and right handturns that we didn't expect to go through.
And through hard work and dedicationto stay together as a couple.
We're in a time periodwhere we're flourishing
now, more than we ever have as a couple.
In all our areas,from communication to intimacy to,
(33:47):
finances to, where there is
a blessing
in this that we would never experiencehad we given up.
Yeah.
When the locusts have stolen our, Yeah.
Felt like that. Sure.
Our joy and everything like that,I feel like that's really
brought our restorative and broughtour marriage to a a thriving place.
(34:11):
Yeah. Yeah, I agree with that.
Yeah,but it was through a lot of hard work.
Yeah, yeah.
Because I think your stages of grief
were apparent to meand that I could see that you were angry.
And why did God make me have this?
And I don't want to take these medsbecause I'm.
I don't want to have to take them forever.
(34:32):
I'm fine.
Sometimes even now, you say, are you sure?
I still have bipolar?
And, we we still talk about that.
So it's it's ongoing.
It's not like,oh, we've accepted it and we're good.
Oh, no, it's it's ongoing.
We still have cycles.
We still have moments ofI don't like this at all.
(34:54):
I, I go revert back tothis is not what I signed up for or you're
not loving me because you're sleepinglike we definitely still cycle that.
But, it's still an an encouragementto know that we're not
we're not going to give up.
Yeah.
I mean,
and I too have had my own personalchallenge with my relationship with the
(35:15):
with the Lord, with God
feeling kind of like,
scorned, like,why would you give this challenge to me?
Yeah. I was your golden child.You were blessing me.
And so greatly in my career, in my life.
And I was always,having such great experience.
Why would why would you chooseto let me go through this,
and so that that has somethingI had had to work with and work
(35:38):
on, to the point where at one pointI had a hard time worshiping,
I had a hard time going to church.
I would continue to call myselfa believer in a Christian,
but there was a area in my heartthat was challenged
by the fact that, I was struggling,you know, so, so hard with this.
Yeah.
And that had to be acceptedand worked through,
(35:59):
to the point where today,sometimes the devil gets a foothold
and he comes back in and we are backin our stages of grief again, and we're
angry and crying and upset and in denial.
And then we get to acceptance again.
I mean, it doesn't go away. Ever.
I wish I could say it did. It doesn't.
And so and then you, you guys know,what did you do on your 25th
(36:24):
wedding anniversary?
Like, that is a big deal.
So, let me backtrack a teeny bit,because up
until this point,right before we moved here.
So that was about seven years ago,
I was done like we were just roommateswhen we moved.
We were just roommates.
Like, he said, it was a Hail Mary.
(36:46):
When we started reengage,it was because he made me go,
I had tried all those marriage things.
I tried all those intensives,all those books.
None of it worked. I was done trying.
We were just going to raise our kids and,
we had to sign a paperthat we would be committed to taking
the 16 week course in the beginning,and I refused to sign it.
(37:11):
I was like, no,I don't think you're going to do the work.
I'm tired of doing the workfor both of us.
I'm not signing it.
And he says, well, I'm signing it.
I'm like, well,good for you because I'm not.
And you can't join a small groupuntil you both agree.
So we went to this open groupfor several weeks
until I, agreed to sign it.
Fast forward then, afterwe had gone through it
(37:32):
three times, I come into that
acceptance was able to,
save up some money and buynew wedding rings.
I got to go to Ireland with my momand I had them made in Ireland
for us, there without himknowing, paid cash so he wouldn't know.
And when I got back from Ireland,I proposed to him
(37:56):
againand I said, this time I really choose you.
Will you marry me again?
Because bipolar and all in our kids
were all there,when I proposed, filmed it and everything.
And he said yes, thank goodness.
And then, so that was in like Septemberand then the that next year was our 25th,
and we went to the Bahamaswhere we, originally honeymooned
(38:20):
and we, got remarried,we got a wedding dress and the kids
got bridesmaid dressesand we hired, a minister,
and we had a wedding cake,and we even had a rehearsal dinner.
And it is just our family.
Just the seven of us.
We had itvideoed and photography and everything.
Because that and the kids all signedthe wedding, or the marriage certificate.
(38:44):
Because they were our witnessesthat we were choosing each other.
And, so, yeah, that was the big deal.
That is absolutely beautiful.
I think I cried when I saw thaton Facebook knowing you guys’ story
you and what it was like, I was just like,oh my gosh, this is I believe it's true.
100, I always have hope, but,
(39:07):
oh, I know it's just beautiful,but I know that not everything
is perfect.
Still, in terms of now,I know from talking to you,
maybe about a year or so ago,maybe a little bit more, and that,
there's still some thingsyou have to do to monitor
the psychosis and the paranoia.
(39:30):
And I knowso I know he's got to still take his meds.
He's got, you guys got to, your monitoring is, mania
coming up or whatever,but tell me about some of that stuff,
some of the but limitsthat you put on Facebook and things.
Yeah.
So you to well yeah.
You mentioned Facebook.
I mean that's a, that was a realstimulating mental thing for me.
(39:53):
And a lot of the thingsthat came out of that, experience, I, I,
I not being on Facebookall the time is a good idea.
Yeah.
So mental was definitely a trigger.
It was during an election year.
And, he just got overheated debatingwith random
people on Facebookabout who should be president.
(40:14):
And, it triggered him.
And then we were in a big episode
and, and so to,
to keep him safeand to keep our family safe,
we had to take away his phoneand his computer.
And he took a break from workfor a couple of weeks.
(40:35):
Just to
get back to level playing field.
And then we slowly introduced,Facebook back in, but
and every time I was going, I, every time
I get ahold of his phone, I deleted the.
It's just not good for meto be on Facebook
and watching the newsand cycling on the world events.
(40:58):
We know it's a trigger.
He knows it's a trigger, butit's a temptation just like anything else.
So, and because we have the obsessivecompulsiveness,
it's easy when you're stressedto do something that is numbing.
And for him, scrolling is numbing.
And so it's easier to do that and to facewhatever it is that's causing
the anxiety. Right. I can point it out.
(41:20):
Yeah, it's true.
I can point it out to him,
but he has to be in the rightframe of mind to receive it.
So he continues to scrollor he puts it away.
It hit.
That's his choice.
But, it'sdefinitely something we're working on. So.
So you will mention it to him,but then you give him the choice.
It's not likeyou are saying like a parent.
(41:40):
You cannot have that. No, no.
Only when he was in the episode
and the doctor told meI needed to take it away, but no.
Okay.
Yeah, yeah, I would love to,but no, I'm just kidding.
Yeah. No I'm not.
I'm not treated as a child in our marriageor anything like that, or treated
as, as a child is the best wayI can think of calling it.
(42:03):
I'm left to my own devices to do whatI will and all that kind of stuff.
But I sometimesdon't always make the best choice.
Is, as a parent, just maybe as just a guy,just being a, male,
I enjoy, taking my mind off my stressesby reading the news or getting stuff.
But then but what happens with me is, is
(42:23):
I cycle on those thoughts and, have
debates.
Yeah.
Debates and reactionsthat, that are not as healthy for me.
So I just have to identifywhat my things on
my triggers are and avoid those,in a healthy way.
Yeah.
And are you taking responsibility for thatand doing that more and more in my job.
Yeah.
(42:44):
Yeah for sure. Yeah.
I think for the lastI don't know, 3 or 4 years I've done that.
Much better. At that.
there's still timeswhere like the episode may happened
and I'm just not awareuntil it's brought to my attention.
Yeah, yeah, you might be off a little bitor whatever, that kind of thing.
I we have a couple friends that we, like.
(43:06):
I said, we trusted with our story
and they will text me and say,have you seen his post lately?
And I'll say, no, what happened?
And they'll say,maybe you should check and go talk to him.
And so then I don't even post anymorein the last couple of years.
I just don't think it's a wise thingfor me to write to, like I do.
I have posted or I've had instant messagecommunication with people about
(43:29):
topics and stuff like that, but that'swhat gets me going to starts my mind
reeling and cycling andand it's like, I don't I can't do that.
I just can't do that to myself.
It's I just need to live kind of more calmand more boring.
Unexcited, like stimulation,that kind of thing.
Yeah. I think it's the same for all of us.
(43:50):
I, I stepped away from theany type of political stuff
for about four yearsbecause I got anxious from it too.
And I just was like, I don't need it.
It's not good for meand it's too negative.
And and, and I love it.
I'm back to doing some of itnow, but I have to watch it to not
(44:10):
have any mental illness.
But it's justif I want to keep my anxiety level down
or keep my my self calm like we all did.
Yeah, right. Y'all need to be calm
and not anxious and wound up for
to be a non-reactive personin our relationships, in our families.
Because if we're not,then we're more reactive.
(44:31):
So I love what do you guys have to share.
Because I think it's just ait's that amazing.
Apparently anomaly.
Anomaly for what people have told you.
But it's just an amazing exampleof how you can
manage this together in a healthy way.
But it took change and growth,for both of you.
(44:54):
Yeah.
Get there.
Yeah.
if I could do it over,
if I could go back to the first episode,
I would have let, my women'spastor come and pray over.
I would have told, peoplewe needed their help.
I would have asked more and not hid more.
(45:19):
And that obviously, we know now we stillhave to be careful on who we tell.
But I think that we wouldI would do a different because,
I didn't understand itand obviously I did the best I could then,
but the different I would do is, isI would ask for help.
I would not try to do it alone.
(45:39):
And I would,search up any book or class or group
or anything that I could findthat could help me walk through it.
And not and not try to wish it away.
Exactly.
Well, and I think, too, that, it itit takes reaching out obviously.
But it is it but it's difficult,because like you said it,
(46:02):
it had some there were some ramificationsthat you experienced unfortunately.
But hopefully, I'll give you the resourcesin the notes of some groups
that people can reach out to.And they. Yeah.
And find hope with that.
What would each of you offer?
A word of hope to those couples
that are managing a mental healthdiagnosis in their marriage?
(46:27):
My word of hope is kind of like
I said a little bit earlier,is that at the end,
if you stay committed to each other,
God can bless your marriage. Yeah.
God can blesswhat has really fallen apart.
Yeah.
And, bring things to a placewhere I've experienced more joy
(46:48):
and more fulfillment in our marriagein the last 4 to 7 years
than I have at any time in my life.
And it there's a connection with my wife
that is better it’sa healthier way of living, that is better.
There's a, joyfor getting up in the morning,
that I'm experiencing as a personwith the mental health issue,
(47:09):
that I,at some points, couldn't even fathom
being in the place where I'm at today,you know, at some point.
So, it can,
with God's
help, and a lot of hard work,get to a better place.
Yeah, yeah, I agree with that.
I think the biggest revelationthat I had in the last
30 years, being married, is,
(47:33):
is the fact that Jesus loves me
in spite of my issues,
and he calls me to love himas Christ loves me.
It has changed my whole perspective on
what it means to be a child of God,
and what it means to love
(47:53):
your spouse the way Christ loves you.
So it allowed.
It allowed me to have,
mercy and grace for him
when he honestly wasn'tdoing it on purpose.
Not to say thatsometimes or not on purpose, but
I think that giving him graceand loving him in
(48:17):
spite of his actions are what changed
the way that I perceive our marriage.
I may not like everything he does
for a long time.
I may not like it, but I will stilllove him the way that Christ loves me.
So there is hope.
I don't know how someonewithout the hope of Christ could do it.
(48:39):
It really would be quite difficultbecause without having that assurance
of hope, of salvation,and that Christ loves me, I don't see
I don't see what hope I would have hadbecause it was really, really hard.
And felt very hopeless.
But because I knew Christ was with me,holding my hand, lifting me
(49:00):
out of the mire.
Like I said in Psalm 40,I could love him that way.
And that is what brought us through it.
And definitely.
And you, you needyou both have needed outside support
and outside helpin order to navigate this.
So yes, but having having that assuranceand having that hope in the Lord,
(49:21):
I agree, it's like that strength is
is it's just through anythingwe've gone through, through Covid,
through the problems, it'slike we're we've got I, I have people that
I know that are unsaved and they're like,I'm afraid all this is going on in there.
Like I'm terrifiedand I'm like, I'm concerned, not afraid.
Right. Exactly.
(49:42):
All the universe in his hand.
And that's right.
And and I have faith and I have trust.
So afraid I'm.
No, I'm not afraid. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
There is like, a comfort and a hope so.
But, you know, I just pray that this
podcast helps so many couples
and I'm, just going to just praythat the people will find it
(50:07):
and they will reach for answersand that they'll listen to your story.
Absolutely beautiful.
Thank you.
Thank you, thank you both for saying yes.
You could have said no.You could have said no.
We don't want to take risk,but I appreciate.
Yeah, both of you that, you know, maybe
(50:28):
God will use you both someday to.
Yeah.
To others who are struggling with thisand, be a light
in the darkness for them, too.
So, yeah, we hope so.
The first time we've ever,shared it together.
So it's a big deal.
Yeah.
We hope that it changes lives, too.
(50:49):
It I'm just going to put you overin that group
of couples that are being,doing, being doing fantastic
that I know that have gone throughlots of problems.
And I love to be able to saythat people are doing great.
So thank you so much.
All right. Thank you.
Thank you for listening.
(51:09):
And I hope you'll share this, podcastwith people
who you know are strugglingwith mental illness in their marriage
and let that be some encouragement to themand to give them hope.
So thank you, and I will see you backthe next time.
God bless.
Thank you for listeningto Change My Relationship.
We hope you will subscribe to thesepodcasts and share them with your friends.
(51:31):
Karla would love to hear from you.
She welcomes ideas for a future podcast,as well as your feedback
on how the podcasts have helped your lifeand relationships.
You can email her at.
karla@changemyrelationship.com
For more informationon Change My Relationship and Karla
Downing's ministry, including her books,studies, devotionals, podcasts
(51:54):
and YouTube videosvisit changemyrelationship.com.
You're listening to a podcast by ChangeMy Relationship, featuring
licensed marriage and family therapistand author Karla Downing.
These podcast are designed to provide youwith practical solutions
based on biblical truthsfor all your relationships.
Today, Karla will be interviewing a guestwho has experienced
a relationship problemand successfully worked through it.
(00:29):
So we are backChange My Relationship podcast.
And we are going to do part two with Johnand Anne
who are talking about, their marriage
with his diagnosis of bipolar disorderand how they navigated that.
And truly a remarkable story.
If you haven't heard part one, pleaselisten to it.
(00:49):
They talked about when they metand what the early marriage was like
and what it was like putting the, first
episode happenedand as they were navigating through that.
But in this, this part,we're really going to focus more on
kind of what we call the solution.
It's like what I,what did, and do that kind of
made a turning point for herand gave her some new tools
(01:13):
and, that she could useto figure out how to respond to it.
And then, what are some of the thingsthat John was able to do
that has gotten them to the pointthey were at?
And they'll tell you about some really,really positive
events in their marriageand what it's like now.
And it's it's really a success story.
It's really wonderful.
(01:34):
And with us,just to recap, in the first, interview,
they were told,they said by every counselor
that they went to that they shouldwould that they would probably divorce,
that people do not stay marriedwhen there's a diagnosis like this.
Yeah. They found that very discouraging.
And, Anne
was saying that she's had a hard timefinding any groups that are supportive,
(01:58):
mental health strong.
Is that the one you were talking about?That does happen.
Yeah, that is correct.
Yeah.
So I'll put the mental healthstrong in Nami in the notes.
But, in the, in the podcast notes,but yes.
And that it's very hardto find those things that so
the fact that you guys have come outand you have, such, wonderful marriage
now and it's so much stronger and, it'sit's really remarkable and it's really
(02:23):
I, I want people toto hear it, to know that it's possible.
So okay, so we kind of left offwith talking about what it was
like with you and taking careof the five children in the home.
And while he was still, pretty depressed,
lethargic, sleeping a lotand that type of thing.
(02:44):
So let's start withyou came to my classes about that time.
Yeah.
You learned some tools that helped you,and this didn't happen overnight.
I mean, this took quite a few yearsof you. Yes.
learning them, figuring out how toplay them because you learn the principles
and then you figure outhow do they work in my situation,
(03:07):
but at the same time,you also get healthy yourself.
Yeah.
Because if you don't get healthy yourself,
you're going to keep doing thingsthe way that you were.
And it's going to continueto, be not healthy for you,
because you're pretty exhaustedand mentally.
Yeah.
And you were telling me,I don't know if I can stay.
(03:29):
Yeah, I can do that is true.
And I thinkwhen one of the things when you were
if I hope it's okay to say this,but I think what that was,
usually when somebody tells methat, I'll say, well, where could you go?
And you were like,I probably have to move in with my mom,
with my five kids, far awayfrom all my friends and their friends.
(03:52):
And that will be a little bit crazyto live with my mom with five kids.
And, we don't I don't have a lot of moneyto have a choice to do that.
So had you had a lot of money or hado you,had just have like
an easy place to step outor have you might have just been like,
yeah, I'm going to go, yeah.
But yeah.
(04:13):
And you also knew that that wouldn'tbe the best for your kids, but
you still wanted it to workif you could, like. Yes.
You, if that divorce is not a happy thing,divorce is a sad ending.
Yeah. it is so many ways.
So that you cameand you were ready to learn.
So tell me aboutsome of the things you learned
(04:34):
and how you appliedthem and why they helped.
So I would
say Iwasn't ready to learn in the beginning
because I was so tired
and so emotional and so just broken.
I really came in the beginning
because someone else there listen to me.
(04:58):
The small groups had other womenin difficult marriage
that were able to listen,and they didn't judge me.
They didn't think I was an awful personfor possibly wanting to leave or for
complaining about his sleepingor the mental illness or whatever.
(05:18):
And so in the beginning,if you talk to a few of my group mates,
they'll say that I cried every week.
Every week.
I cried probably for the first year,because it was just
my only place to talk to another adult,because I was around kids all day
and talk to someone elsewho at least somewhat understood.
(05:41):
And then you have the aspectof your teachings and the coursework
that I did throughout the weekand that really sustain me in my focus,
because it was really easyto look at all the bad.
It was really easy to crawl into that holeand just be sad and give up.
(06:03):
I love school, I like learning.
So it was, it was really goodfor me to take it out and to read the book
and to do the questions,and that is what sustained me.
I think it just,I mean, I, I probably took the class,
at least three years in a row.
So that would be, what, six, 6or 8 classes?
In a row.
(06:24):
And then then it
started settling in like thenthe truths were real.
They weren't just pretend or metrying to pretend.
So in the beginning, having supportwas very important to someone else
I could talk to havingsomebody speak truth into me.
That was not, Christian ease was not.
(06:46):
I'm doing it wrong.
Was not, toughen upand just pray about it.
Like having truths,biblical truth were huge for me
because then I wasn't at fault.
I had so many people in my lifetelling me that I was
causing his mental illness and that it.
And, it was close friends
(07:07):
and family, and it itit was so disheartening.
But to to go to class every week and hearthat it wasn't my fault to learn
that other women had these difficulties toto learn that there was hope.
If if we could work it out.
But I had to stop crying.
Like I had to get my own self
(07:28):
out of that hurt and out of that pit.
Psalm 40,I said to myself over and over again,
because he pulled me out of the mire.
He pulled me out of the pit.
He set my feet on solid ground.
It may have taken me 3 or 4 years
to get on solid ground,but I knew that his hand was holding me.
And a lot of that has to do with the truththat I was learning
(07:52):
every week in your class as far as, like,
how I was supposed to get better.
But I think thatI guess that's the first step.
I learned that I had to get better first.
I remember having a conversationwith someone, in Care Ministries
and I was complaining about my husbandnot wanting to work,
(08:12):
sleeping all day, and yada yada yada.
And he said, well, that's all good,but what what are you doing?
And I was like,what do you mean, what am I doing?
It's not my fault.
And he was like,yeah, you need to be taking care of you,
and you need to be making surethat you are healthy.
So seeing a counselor myself was helpful,but there was still
no truths in the counseling.
(08:33):
It was a lot of me talking, but no truth.
So once I I started reading,especially women A Difficult Marriage
and going through the chapterslearning how to detach
from his, reactionsor his choices, were huge
because then when he chose to sleep,it wasn't personal, right?
(08:54):
I always felt like he was choosingto not love me at that moment.
So he was going to sleep,or he was choosing to not want to be
a part of Christmas morningbecause it was too much work for him.
But honestly, it was the mental illness.
But at the time, being so enmeshed
in his illnessas if it was my cause or something
(09:17):
that I could fixwas the mistake that I made.
So detaching was huge for me.
Realizingthe lies that I was telling myself
in my head that I could fix it,
that, that I needed to do better, that I,
instead of letting God take over for thatand putting the appropriate boundary
(09:41):
after I set the boundariesclass, between myself and my husband,
it was the only way that we then startedto see improvement for both of us.
I finally had a boundary that said,
you take your meds or you can't stay here.
You get up and shower every day.
(10:02):
You, try to find a job like we had.
I had a list and I had a time frame,
and then he didn't take me so seriously.
And then I remember, after having gonethrough the class a few times,
I asked you,what do I do if he doesn't do it?
What if I do, what do I do if he doesn'tget out of bed?
(10:24):
What if I do
if he doesn't take a shower, what if Iwhat do I do if he doesn't take his meds?
then what?
I think I just assumed thatif I told him he would do it.
That's obviously we know that's not true.
But at the time, I really hadconvinced myself that that was true.
And so when he didn't do it,we had a moment, I think,
(10:46):
I had a moment with you, actually,and you said
you need to tell him that he has todo this, or he can't stay there anymore.
And I was like,what no Christian woman in the church
would ever say if they don't blah,blah, blah, they can't stay there anymore.
Or, butit honestly was what we both needed.
(11:09):
So I sat him down on the couchand I told him, look,
you haven't done what we talked about,and you're not stepping up.
You're not getting a job,you're not trying to get out of bed.
You'renot trying to take care of yourself.
So you can't live here anymore.
And what did you say?
Well, I actually heard those words, and I.
(11:30):
I was angry and sad.
I was like, what are you talking about?
This is, I know I can't be this bad.
You can't be this bad, right? Yeah.
I was in shock, and and I was, I was angryand I refused to leave, actually.
So mental pictureor physical or mental picture here he.
He crossed his arms.
(11:51):
He sat on the couch in a huffand he said, I'm not leaving
and you can't make me,
okay, I guess I did that, but, well,
that is pretty much how I, it's like I wasI was, hit with kind of an ultimatum.
And I remember thinking to myself
during the process,I don't think it was instantly,
(12:11):
but I thought to myself,
if I don't change, I'm goingto lose everything that I love.
And that ultimatumwas very helpful to get me,
off the couch, give me up.
And trying, and making me
make the choiceto keep what I loved in my life,
(12:32):
which was my wife and my kids and and,I had,
a whole bunch of emotions, like,we built this together.
You can't just tell meto get out. I'm not.
we were.
It takes two to make five children,And and it takes two to pay bills.
And then we have a house togetherand all these things, and
and there was a selfish side that I said,no, I don't want to lose this.
(12:53):
And, and so it left me with the choicethat I had to make the change in me
that was necessaryto stand up and and get healthy
and make good choices and shower
and, get off the couch and get work
and get backto being successful again, in life,
and so it was a really helpful, outcome
(13:15):
that let us, yeah,it was definitely a turning point.
Yeah. Situation.
I we re retalked about boundariesat that time because I was like,
what do you mean you're not leaving?
You'reyou're supposed to say, okay, I'll leave.
Like, why are you not leaving?
And that's when I came to youand said, he's not going to leave.
I have to leave.
(13:37):
I have to take the kids and leave.
But I really didn't have an option.
Like, I really didn't.
My my parents lived 45 minutes away,and the kids are in school, and I just.
I just couldn't leave.
So I remember that the the
the chapters on speaking my truth,
(13:59):
and so I sat him down
on, on another occasion because thenI wasn't so angry that he said no.
And I said, okay,if you're going to stay then.
And we outlined boundaries again.
And I said,
I'm out.
I'm not helping you anymore.
(14:19):
This is all on you.
I have to take care of our childrenbecause you're not.
And I walked out.
It was little more than ten words, butI really tried to do less than ten words.
But I walked out, and.
And then I did.
I checked out, I was done,he was going to do it or he wasn't.
And this was where he was going to provethat he could.
(14:41):
And I was going to do my bestto take care of myself,
to take care of our children
what they needed, and, practicegetting myself healthy.
And he did take some baby steps.
Not right away, but he did take some babysteps, got out of bed and,
eventually got a job.
(15:03):
Yeah.
I mean, I think, if you're hearing thisand you're as a listener
and you're hearing theany similarity to this, we're not saying
that the person with the mental illnessdoesn't need time to heal.
Know for sure that's true.There's going to be a downtime.
There's going to be a down, periodwhere the person's down for the count
(15:23):
and they but the the reality isyou got to get up at some point.
You've got to you've got to stand up and
will yourself or change your mindsetor do something,
get your medicinescorrect and, get with psychiatrist,
get with psychologist,get with counselors, get with friends, and
(15:49):
and work hard at building your,
building back up to a stronger point.
And you just can't stay down.
Yeah. Right.
I when restating that a different way,I would, I would say
the the family doesn'thave to take anything and everything
and suffer and be harmedwhile the person with mental illness
(16:13):
or any addiction or any problem gets
to do whatever they need to do
without accountabilityand without having to take responsibility.
So we have to have lots of compassion,
which I think that Anne demonstratedthat she had she loved you.
She tried to keep the family together.
(16:33):
She was trying to help you.
She, had, compassion for that.
But she couldn't do it anymore.
It was just absolutely overwhelmingand starting to affect her too negatively.
and we haven't talked about howwhen this is
happening, resentment grows
because, I mean, what you're talking aboutis your wife isn't your wife anymore.
(16:56):
She's your caregiver and caregiver.
Don't feel like having sex withtheir people that they are taking care of.
They don't feel like,being intimate and close and sharing.
You're not sharing things as husbandand wives,
really like,like like your mother or your caregiver.
And that's not healthy.
So it does break down your relationshipto for it to be like this.
(17:21):
But I so I think that, it has,it has a lot of inhibiting,
impacts on your relationship.
And obviously you're not you were not back
then where you are today, which is your
in a happy marriagewhere you're, you still got.
So we all do right. Yeah.
you can tell that there's, there's giveand take and interaction and my guess is
(17:44):
you were not talking about thissituation this way back then.
No, no, no what what were you saying?
Not much to me.
Yeah. Not much to me.
He had a lot ofof these thoughts internally.
So honestly, it wasn't until years laterthat I knew what he was thinking.
(18:06):
Then.
It's in in nature, I mean, typical.
It's just hard for himto have express his emotion.
So adding that all in with the illnessat that time,
I definitely didn't have a two.
We didn't have a two way conversationvery often.
I'm a very internal, cerebraltype of thinking type of person.
I don't know if that has anything to dowith the mental illness, but I.
(18:29):
I cycle and think through
lots of different scenariosand options and situations and kind of,
mentally challenged and all the,you know, I'm very high functioning.
I've been a performer and,
excelled in work and success and careersand things that,
that think, still, it doesn't mean thatI'm a crippled individual, necessarily.
(18:53):
But it is.
But but, yeah, youyou still can be a high functioning person
and have mental illnessissues, and, and emotions.
Sorry. Good.
With bipolar disorder, you, you tendto have people that are, highly creative
and, yeah, your, your musical sideand your performing side.
And so that really and, a lot of thoughtsyou probably are a,
(19:18):
person who's not an introvert, probablyan introvert instead of an extrovert.
You do a lot of your own internalthinking.
And yeah, I was more extrovertedwhen I was younger, but
I became introverted extremelyafter the mental illness.
The so I became very inwardfocused and became
I work from homenow on a side job and stuff like that.
(19:39):
I, I became very introvertedbecause I didn't know
what I was dealing withand I didn't want to have a,
an episode in front of somebodyoutside in the public.
Yeah, that kind of thing.
So and I became very cautiousabout how I held myself.
Yeah.
And you were anxious,so the anxiety keeps you from,
like,go out and interact and stuff like that.
(20:00):
So, yeah, it has a lot of ramifications.
So so you he told youyou had to start doing it on your own,
and you were first angry,and then you were motivated, and then I'm
sure it like you said, it took a whilefor you to get to where you could do that.
But what are you telling yourself?
I have to do thisor I'm going to lose my family?
(20:20):
Or was there a point
where you started to be like,this is good for me, I want to do this.
I mean, butwhat would you think that was years later?
That was years later,and now I'm kind of thriving again,
even though I've had multiple experienceswith, paranoia,
anxiety, different episodeswe could call smaller in scale than 2010,
(20:42):
but had many different, experiences
that are medical, experiences.
I'm still in a much better place.
I've we've come to discover
with the psychiatry that I neededa very little dose of medicine,
a very small amountof, regular, consistent medicine.
I was diagnosed once we, moved,and that's kind of a whole nother
(21:04):
topic, but, we we did kind of lose
our house and move, as a couple.
But you're saying thatwhen we were in the, other home,
the psychiatrist we saw thereprescribed something different.
And when we got here, insurancedidn't cover that medication.
And so the psychiatristthat we ended up with here
(21:27):
gave him a sample of somethingbecause we didn't have any money.
Neither of us had jobsto pay for anything.
So he he took samples of this new med,
and it was like, night and day.
It was.
It was such a God thing that the insurancedidn't cover the other one
because he, he, like, woke up,
(21:48):
and, and was able to,
like,look me in the eye and was able to like,
read body language againand care about like
what he looks likeand what our home looked like.
And wanted to go to churchlike it was just
it did help to be in a new state,a new city, a new church.
(22:11):
Absolutely.
We didn't have the eyes that we thoughtwere watching us before.
It doesn't mean that people don'tknow, here, but less people know
because we're we're more careful on whowho we trust that
we test the water before we tell them,because we don't need that again.
Like we're we're starting over,we're fresh.
(22:32):
And now with this new medication,we also, added in lithium on top of that.
And believe it or not,it's been a miracle.
All because we can add and subtract
that a little bitand we can stop an episode.
And beforewe didn't know we could do that.
So that has been huge since Covidin the last five years.
(22:54):
To be able to say, I think you're cycling
right now,you didn't really sleep last night.
Are you okay?
Checking in.
Did you take your sleeping pill?
And we can call the psychiatristand she can say, yeah,
he seems a little anxious.
Let's just add, like, a half fora couple days and help him to calm down.
(23:14):
And it's taken us straight out of
that.
Could have been full blown episodes intojust maybe a week or so.
Instead of years.
Like it used to be.
Wonderful. Yeah, yeah.
Because usually you've got to treat it
with anti-psychoticsbut also mood stabilizer and so lithium.
(23:35):
Right. So we are. Yeah.
He has all he has all of thatplus an antidepressant.
Yeah.
So we have anti-psychotic the lithiumthen with, depression and anxiety.
Yeah. And then yeah. Yeah, yeah,I think so.
Because a lot of that makes you not wantto sleep or not be able to sleep.
Yeah. Right. So he does take the well.
(23:58):
And I was also diagnosedafter the move with diabetic as well.
And I was attributing some of the thingsthis is the lack of knowledge that we had.
I was attributing a lot of my side effectsand my sleeping on the couch
and my tirednessto some sort of mental illness problem.
Well, when you eat ten Oreo cookies
with, diabetic, you're going to sleepon the couch, five minutes later.
(24:22):
So, I was eating unhealthy.
I was, having sugarthat immediately would put me to sleep.
So just as a side note,if you have any other health issues,
make sure that those are clearly definedin your life as well.
Yeah.
So that you can identifythat it's not always mental illness
that's causing the side effect. Yeah.
But you may have other health issues.Yeah.
(24:43):
It doesn't get like okay. Anything.
Right, right.
And what you're the waythat you're interacting right now,
you're talking about like,what he's doing with his meds.
You're giving him feedbackabout what you're seeing.
Like, you're, yeah, you'rekind of manic or, you're saying things
that aren't making sense,but there's a difference from before.
(25:03):
You're not taking responsibilityfor all of that with him.
You're partnering with him. Right.
And like you would do with a husbandand wife as partners,
we support each other and we knowwhat's going on with each other.
And when somebody does has mental illness,they do need the other person.
The same thing with the diabetes.
(25:24):
You would say, it seems like you're,go into the bathroom a lot.
you're you. Yeah.
I think you're you're going in theretoo much to urinate.
I think there's something going onor you seem like you're kind of out of it.
Are you in a sugar coma? so it's you.
You give feedback and you work together,
but you're not taking responsibilitybecause he's participating fully, right?
(25:49):
And and I wouldI would say that was something I struggled
with for a long time.
And I could see that others would strugglebecause
I want him to be responsible for himself100%.
He's not my child, right?
But when I was fully hands off,
(26:09):
like when I said, you do it,I'm walking right?
There were some things he couldn't doby himself, right?
And I was mad for a long timethat he couldn't do them by himself.
You are a grown up.
You should be able to. But
fast forward to
now, where we, like yousaid, we engage in conversation.
(26:30):
I'll say,I think you were upset last night.
probably shouldn't be sending an emailin the middle of the night, Are you okay?
Or being proactivein reaching out to a stressor, like,
we had a couple that we're very close withthat was causing immense stress for him.
And I just reached out to them and said,look, you need to back off.
(26:51):
This is too much for him right now.
You can talk to me or you can not.
Or you can wait, but you cannottalk to him about that right now.
And he just needed to breathe.
He needed to have, the cycle over.
And we needed to talk about it rationally.
And then we went back to them andwe were ready to have the conversation.
But prior to this healthiness,I would have been mad
(27:14):
that he couldn'tjust tell them to leave him alone,
or that he couldn't just,see that he didn't sleep last night like,
It seems silly
now, but at the time,I just wanted him to be a grown up
and not have to take care of himlike that. But.
But you're right in knowing thatnow that we are in a partnership,
(27:35):
and I would expect him to take care of me
the same wayI would want to take care of him.
If that were me.
And, but I think it also has to dowith recognize.
Oh, acceptance, grievingthe grief process.
You guys, I talk about the grief processa lot now. Yes.
And more and more.It's a huge part of this.
(27:55):
Like when you're recognizing anything,it could be like even when your son was
diagnosed with that illness as a child,you've got to go through a grief process.
But when you recognize
that you've got mental illness,mental illness is not going to be cured.
It's there to stay.
It can be treated,but it's not going to be cured.
And it is going to affect your life.
(28:17):
And that is the reality.
But you have to go through the denial,the anger, the bargaining.
John has to go through it too.
And then the sadnessand then the acceptance.
And once you're on the other sidewith the acceptance of, okay,
this is in our lives,this is will be a part of our marriage,
we have to figure out how to kind of dothis.
(28:40):
That acceptance allows you to look at itand say, now, what can we do?
And with you guysboth working together, yeah, it
it becomes possible.
Yeah.
When I first took that class
at the very beginning,after his first episode on bipolar,
they talked about the grief processand the people leading
(29:03):
the class talked about acceptance,and I thought they were crazy.
I was like, no way will I ever get there.
I was so upset.
I was so disheartened.
There was so many things.
And I went back and forth in the griefprocess all around and around.
I honestly probably didn't make itto acceptance until a few years ago.
(29:28):
And this is this has been 14 years.
It it it's a process and it's definitely
you have to allow yourself
grace and you have to allow yourselfto feel what you're feeling.
Yes, but I wanted to stay in that.
It's not fair stage.
I wanted to stay in the,This is not supposed to be how it is.
(29:53):
This is not the fairy taleI dreamed about.
This is not who I married.
This is not what I signed up for.
And none of that is true.That is just that.
That is not true. I.
I fell in love with him.
I chose him, we chose each other.
God placed us together.
It was definitely not a mistake.
(30:13):
And we are exactly rightfor what each other needs.
But in the middle of the grief process,we both
didn't believe that it's just taken,
I don't know, maybe
12 yearsor more to come to that acceptance.
And then we can see it from a healthyperspective, set appropriate boundaries
(30:35):
and give appropriate graceand all of the things that come with that.
And then for you to then, John,you had to go through the grief process
and accepting this.
Are you at a place of acceptancewhere you are fully?
Yeah for sure. Yeah.
There's a there's a stage where, they sayI'm one of your you're telling me
(30:57):
I'm one of those guys that is on medicinethe rest of their life?
Or, if I'm off the medicine, it'sgoing to go crazy again
or whatever, that kind of thing.
There's this. This.
I'm not one of those guys.I. That's not me.
I'm a high functioning, performing,successful guy, that that kind of thing.
And I've come to accept that.
(31:18):
I definitely have something that,I've been given, genetically,
whatever you want to call it,that's come out, that, I deal with
and that, comes outwith anxiety, depression,
paranoia, different, different symptomsthat we've been able to identify.
But having a proper diagnosis,having proper medicine, having, a care of
(31:39):
someone in your lifethat you can turn to for
helping you identifywhat's going on, that's a, a partner.
in this situation, is totally necessaryfor me to be able to thrive.
And I'm so grateful.
I mean, wewe moved out here, and we took a class
three times,through our church called reengage.
(32:02):
I think it's funny that it's calledreengage because I always didn't engage.
Yeah, and reengage was a, couple studyon relationships
16 and 16 weeks where you get intosmall groups with, other couples,
you hear their stories in a small group,private setting, and everybody,
expresses in a counseling settingwhat they're going through
(32:24):
and what they've dealt with.
And I got to sit therein the first session
and listen to everybody's affairsand all these different problems,
and things like that and go, well,I don't look that bad after all.
Do I, and
but, each session did, we did itthree times.
It really helped us reengage
as a couple, reignitethe flame of love between each, ourselves.
(32:45):
Yeah.
And get to a place where we understoodthat it's a covenant relationship
that we've made,not a contract that you can just rip up.
God. Basically,
my my personal opinion is that marriageis like your relationship with the Lord.
with God that,if you can't stay married for a lifetime,
how are you going to loveGod for an eternity?
(33:06):
there's a there's a marriage, covenantthat you make with each other
to try to go through thick and thinand have health issues, and it's like
a sick or healthy or whateverthe vows are, that you, go through.
But ultimately, I feel like we started
with a typical marriage issuesand, and challenges, faced
(33:26):
many left hand turns and right handturns that we didn't expect to go through.
And through hard work and dedicationto stay together as a couple.
We're in a time periodwhere we're flourishing
now, more than we ever have as a couple.
In all our areas,from communication to intimacy to,
(33:47):
finances to, where there is
a blessing
in this that we would never experiencehad we given up.
Yeah.
When the locusts have stolen our, Yeah.
Felt like that. Sure.
Our joy and everything like that,I feel like that's really
brought our restorative and broughtour marriage to a a thriving place.
(34:11):
Yeah. Yeah, I agree with that.
Yeah,but it was through a lot of hard work.
Yeah, yeah.
Because I think your stages of grief
were apparent to meand that I could see that you were angry.
And why did God make me have this?
And I don't want to take these medsbecause I'm.
I don't want to have to take them forever.
(34:32):
I'm fine.
Sometimes even now, you say, are you sure?
I still have bipolar?
And, we we still talk about that.
So it's it's ongoing.
It's not like,oh, we've accepted it and we're good.
Oh, no, it's it's ongoing.
We still have cycles.
We still have moments ofI don't like this at all.
(34:54):
I, I go revert back tothis is not what I signed up for or you're
not loving me because you're sleepinglike we definitely still cycle that.
But, it's still an an encouragementto know that we're not
we're not going to give up.
Yeah.
I mean,
and I too have had my own personalchallenge with my relationship with the
(35:15):
with the Lord, with God
feeling kind of like,
scorned, like,why would you give this challenge to me?
Yeah. I was your golden child.You were blessing me.
And so greatly in my career, in my life.
And I was always,having such great experience.
Why would why would you chooseto let me go through this,
and so that that has somethingI had had to work with and work
(35:38):
on, to the point where at one pointI had a hard time worshiping,
I had a hard time going to church.
I would continue to call myselfa believer in a Christian,
but there was a area in my heartthat was challenged
by the fact that, I was struggling,you know, so, so hard with this.
Yeah.
And that had to be acceptedand worked through,
(35:59):
to the point where today,sometimes the devil gets a foothold
and he comes back in and we are backin our stages of grief again, and we're
angry and crying and upset and in denial.
And then we get to acceptance again.
I mean, it doesn't go away. Ever.
I wish I could say it did. It doesn't.
And so and then you, you guys know,what did you do on your 25th
(36:24):
wedding anniversary?
Like, that is a big deal.
So, let me backtrack a teeny bit,because up
until this point,right before we moved here.
So that was about seven years ago,
I was done like we were just roommateswhen we moved.
We were just roommates.
Like, he said, it was a Hail Mary.
(36:46):
When we started reengage,it was because he made me go,
I had tried all those marriage things.
I tried all those intensives,all those books.
None of it worked. I was done trying.
We were just going to raise our kids and,
we had to sign a paperthat we would be committed to taking
the 16 week course in the beginning,and I refused to sign it.
(37:11):
I was like, no,I don't think you're going to do the work.
I'm tired of doing the workfor both of us.
I'm not signing it.
And he says, well, I'm signing it.
I'm like, well,good for you because I'm not.
And you can't join a small groupuntil you both agree.
So we went to this open groupfor several weeks
until I, agreed to sign it.
Fast forward then, afterwe had gone through it
(37:32):
three times, I come into that
acceptance was able to,
save up some money and buynew wedding rings.
I got to go to Ireland with my momand I had them made in Ireland
for us, there without himknowing, paid cash so he wouldn't know.
And when I got back from Ireland,I proposed to him
(37:56):
againand I said, this time I really choose you.
Will you marry me again?
Because bipolar and all in our kids
were all there,when I proposed, filmed it and everything.
And he said yes, thank goodness.
And then, so that was in like Septemberand then the that next year was our 25th,
and we went to the Bahamaswhere we, originally honeymooned
(38:20):
and we, got remarried,we got a wedding dress and the kids
got bridesmaid dressesand we hired, a minister,
and we had a wedding cake,and we even had a rehearsal dinner.
And it is just our family.
Just the seven of us.
We had itvideoed and photography and everything.
Because that and the kids all signedthe wedding, or the marriage certificate.
(38:44):
Because they were our witnessesthat we were choosing each other.
And, so, yeah, that was the big deal.
That is absolutely beautiful.
I think I cried when I saw thaton Facebook knowing you guys’ story
you and what it was like, I was just like,oh my gosh, this is I believe it's true.
100, I always have hope, but,
(39:07):
oh, I know it's just beautiful,but I know that not everything
is perfect.
Still, in terms of now,I know from talking to you,
maybe about a year or so ago,maybe a little bit more, and that,
there's still some thingsyou have to do to monitor
the psychosis and the paranoia.
(39:30):
And I knowso I know he's got to still take his meds.
He's got, you guys got to, your monitoring is, mania
coming up or whatever,but tell me about some of that stuff,
some of the but limitsthat you put on Facebook and things.
Yeah.
So you to well yeah.
You mentioned Facebook.
I mean that's a, that was a realstimulating mental thing for me.
(39:53):
And a lot of the thingsthat came out of that, experience, I, I,
I not being on Facebookall the time is a good idea.
Yeah.
So mental was definitely a trigger.
It was during an election year.
And, he just got overheated debatingwith random
people on Facebookabout who should be president.
(40:14):
And, it triggered him.
And then we were in a big episode
and, and so to,
to keep him safeand to keep our family safe,
we had to take away his phoneand his computer.
And he took a break from workfor a couple of weeks.
(40:35):
Just to
get back to level playing field.
And then we slowly introduced,Facebook back in, but
and every time I was going, I, every time
I get ahold of his phone, I deleted the.
It's just not good for meto be on Facebook
and watching the newsand cycling on the world events.
(40:58):
We know it's a trigger.
He knows it's a trigger, butit's a temptation just like anything else.
So, and because we have the obsessivecompulsiveness,
it's easy when you're stressedto do something that is numbing.
And for him, scrolling is numbing.
And so it's easier to do that and to facewhatever it is that's causing
the anxiety. Right. I can point it out.
(41:20):
Yeah, it's true.
I can point it out to him,
but he has to be in the rightframe of mind to receive it.
So he continues to scrollor he puts it away.
It hit.
That's his choice.
But, it'sdefinitely something we're working on. So.
So you will mention it to him,but then you give him the choice.
It's not likeyou are saying like a parent.
(41:40):
You cannot have that. No, no.
Only when he was in the episode
and the doctor told meI needed to take it away, but no.
Okay.
Yeah, yeah, I would love to,but no, I'm just kidding.
Yeah. No I'm not.
I'm not treated as a child in our marriageor anything like that, or treated
as, as a child is the best wayI can think of calling it.
(42:03):
I'm left to my own devices to do whatI will and all that kind of stuff.
But I sometimesdon't always make the best choice.
Is, as a parent, just maybe as just a guy,just being a, male,
I enjoy, taking my mind off my stressesby reading the news or getting stuff.
But then but what happens with me is, is
(42:23):
I cycle on those thoughts and, have
debates.
Yeah.
Debates and reactionsthat, that are not as healthy for me.
So I just have to identifywhat my things on
my triggers are and avoid those,in a healthy way.
Yeah.
And are you taking responsibility for thatand doing that more and more in my job.
Yeah.
(42:44):
Yeah for sure. Yeah.
I think for the lastI don't know, 3 or 4 years I've done that.
Much better. At that.
there's still timeswhere like the episode may happened
and I'm just not awareuntil it's brought to my attention.
Yeah, yeah, you might be off a little bitor whatever, that kind of thing.
I we have a couple friends that we, like.
(43:06):
I said, we trusted with our story
and they will text me and say,have you seen his post lately?
And I'll say, no, what happened?
And they'll say,maybe you should check and go talk to him.
And so then I don't even post anymorein the last couple of years.
I just don't think it's a wise thingfor me to write to, like I do.
I have posted or I've had instant messagecommunication with people about
(43:29):
topics and stuff like that, but that'swhat gets me going to starts my mind
reeling and cycling andand it's like, I don't I can't do that.
I just can't do that to myself.
It's I just need to live kind of more calmand more boring.
Unexcited, like stimulation,that kind of thing.
Yeah. I think it's the same for all of us.
(43:50):
I, I stepped away from theany type of political stuff
for about four yearsbecause I got anxious from it too.
And I just was like, I don't need it.
It's not good for meand it's too negative.
And and, and I love it.
I'm back to doing some of itnow, but I have to watch it to not
(44:10):
have any mental illness.
But it's justif I want to keep my anxiety level down
or keep my my self calm like we all did.
Yeah, right. Y'all need to be calm
and not anxious and wound up for
to be a non-reactive personin our relationships, in our families.
Because if we're not,then we're more reactive.
(44:31):
So I love what do you guys have to share.
Because I think it's just ait's that amazing.
Apparently anomaly.
Anomaly for what people have told you.
But it's just an amazing exampleof how you can
manage this together in a healthy way.
But it took change and growth,for both of you.
(44:54):
Yeah.
Get there.
Yeah.
if I could do it over,
if I could go back to the first episode,
I would have let, my women'spastor come and pray over.
I would have told, peoplewe needed their help.
I would have asked more and not hid more.
(45:19):
And that obviously, we know now we stillhave to be careful on who we tell.
But I think that we wouldI would do a different because,
I didn't understand itand obviously I did the best I could then,
but the different I would do is, isI would ask for help.
I would not try to do it alone.
(45:39):
And I would,search up any book or class or group
or anything that I could findthat could help me walk through it.
And not and not try to wish it away.
Exactly.
Well, and I think, too, that, it itit takes reaching out obviously.
But it is it but it's difficult,because like you said it,
(46:02):
it had some there were some ramificationsthat you experienced unfortunately.
But hopefully, I'll give you the resourcesin the notes of some groups
that people can reach out to.And they. Yeah.
And find hope with that.
What would each of you offer?
A word of hope to those couples
that are managing a mental healthdiagnosis in their marriage?
(46:27):
My word of hope is kind of like
I said a little bit earlier,is that at the end,
if you stay committed to each other,
God can bless your marriage. Yeah.
God can blesswhat has really fallen apart.
Yeah.
And, bring things to a placewhere I've experienced more joy
(46:48):
and more fulfillment in our marriagein the last 4 to 7 years
than I have at any time in my life.
And it there's a connection with my wife
that is better it’sa healthier way of living, that is better.
There's a, joyfor getting up in the morning,
that I'm experiencing as a personwith the mental health issue,
(47:09):
that I,at some points, couldn't even fathom
being in the place where I'm at today,you know, at some point.
So, it can,
with God's
help, and a lot of hard work,get to a better place.
Yeah, yeah, I agree with that.
I think the biggest revelationthat I had in the last
30 years, being married, is,
(47:33):
is the fact that Jesus loves me
in spite of my issues,
and he calls me to love himas Christ loves me.
It has changed my whole perspective on
what it means to be a child of God,
and what it means to love
(47:53):
your spouse the way Christ loves you.
So it allowed.
It allowed me to have,
mercy and grace for him
when he honestly wasn'tdoing it on purpose.
Not to say thatsometimes or not on purpose, but
I think that giving him graceand loving him in
(48:17):
spite of his actions are what changed
the way that I perceive our marriage.
I may not like everything he does
for a long time.
I may not like it, but I will stilllove him the way that Christ loves me.
So there is hope.
I don't know how someonewithout the hope of Christ could do it.
(48:39):
It really would be quite difficultbecause without having that assurance
of hope, of salvation,and that Christ loves me, I don't see
I don't see what hope I would have hadbecause it was really, really hard.
And felt very hopeless.
But because I knew Christ was with me,holding my hand, lifting me
(49:00):
out of the mire.
Like I said in Psalm 40,I could love him that way.
And that is what brought us through it.
And definitely.
And you, you needyou both have needed outside support
and outside helpin order to navigate this.
So yes, but having having that assuranceand having that hope in the Lord,
(49:21):
I agree, it's like that strength is
is it's just through anythingwe've gone through, through Covid,
through the problems, it'slike we're we've got I, I have people that
I know that are unsaved and they're like,I'm afraid all this is going on in there.
Like I'm terrifiedand I'm like, I'm concerned, not afraid.
Right. Exactly.
(49:42):
All the universe in his hand.
And that's right.
And and I have faith and I have trust.
So afraid I'm.
No, I'm not afraid. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
There is like, a comfort and a hope so.
But, you know, I just pray that this
podcast helps so many couples
and I'm, just going to just praythat the people will find it
(50:07):
and they will reach for answersand that they'll listen to your story.
Absolutely beautiful.
Thank you.
Thank you, thank you both for saying yes.
You could have said no.You could have said no.
We don't want to take risk,but I appreciate.
Yeah, both of you that, you know, maybe
(50:28):
God will use you both someday to.
Yeah.
To others who are struggling with thisand, be a light
in the darkness for them, too.
So, yeah, we hope so.
The first time we've ever,shared it together.
So it's a big deal.
Yeah.
We hope that it changes lives, too.
(50:49):
It I'm just going to put you overin that group
of couples that are being,doing, being doing fantastic
that I know that have gone throughlots of problems.
And I love to be able to saythat people are doing great.
So thank you so much.
All right. Thank you.
Thank you for listening.
(51:09):
And I hope you'll share this, podcastwith people
who you know are strugglingwith mental illness in their marriage
and let that be some encouragement to themand to give them hope.
So thank you, and I will see you backthe next time.
God bless.
Thank you for listeningto Change My Relationship.
We hope you will subscribe to thesepodcasts and share them with your friends.
(51:31):
Karla would love to hear from you.
She welcomes ideas for a future podcast,as well as your feedback
on how the podcasts have helped your lifeand relationships.
You can email her at.
karla@changemyrelationship.com
For more informationon Change My Relationship and Karla
Downing's ministry, including her books,studies, devotionals, podcasts
(51:54):
and YouTube videosvisit changemyrelationship.com.
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