Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:02):
Hello everyone and welcome.
Clout for Good is a bi-weekly podcast thatshowcases personal and powerful
conversations with prominent LGBTQ plusexecutives who are out in the workplace.
The conversations are meant to create asupportive community and inspire LGBTQ
plus people, their employers and allies tobuild equity and inclusion in the
(00:23):
workplace.
Today I'm honored to welcome a truetrailblazer, Alaina Kupak.
Elena is currently the executive directorof portfolio strategy and analytics at
Gilead sciences, where she leads thecompany's portfolio strategy for the
virology and inflammation therapeuticareas.
Before joining Gilead, Elena was withPfizer and held roles in marketing, market
(00:48):
access, sales, and sales leadership.
Elena is the founder and president ofgrace, a nonpartisan communications and
public.
policy organization focused on challengingthe negative narrative of the transgender
community.
She's written numerous op-eds, hasappeared on several national media
outlets, and was featured in the firstnationally aired transgender awareness ad
(01:12):
depicting her being denied the use of awoman's restroom, which aired on Fox News
immediately before Donald Trump'sacceptance speech in 2016.
She worked with the U S department ofjustice, serving as one of only two named
witnesses in the United States versus thestate of North Carolina in the bathroom
(01:35):
bill case.
Elena graduated from North Carolina stateuniversity, and she also has served in the
U S Navy.
So Elena, welcome to the show.
Thank you, David.
So grateful to be here.
Such a impressive opening.
Thank you so much for all that you'redoing for the community and for all the
(01:55):
courage you've put forward to be outthere.
Be out there not only in the workplace,which we'll talk about, but also being out
there in the public eye and on media andwithin your new organization.
So thank you.
Oh, well, it is a it's a paradox for sure.
Like most people in my community, I thinkthat I wish I could just live a quiet life
(02:20):
and nobody would know that I have aninteresting medical history.
But unfortunately, the political powersthat be have decided to make our community
of a political football.
So, yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Well, let's start with the first thingthat I ask all my guests is just to tell
us about how you identify and maybe alittle bit about when you decided to share
(02:44):
your identity in the workplace.
What was that like for you?
Well, I identify as a woman and a lesbian,and I just so happen to be transgender.
It's a tiny part of my medical history.
It doesn't define me in any way.
People in my daily life don't see me asanything other than a woman.
(03:05):
You know, and so, this one is having mynails done recently and somebody was
talking about their spouse.
I said, my spouse, and she said, what doeshe do?
I said, actually, it's a she.
And so.
But I became visible, I publiclytransitioned in 2013, privately in 2012.
(03:26):
And it was at that point that I just cameto a point that I couldn't live my life
inauthentically any longer.
I really had a choice to make of choosingto live or no, or unfortunately a dark
alternative that many of my communityoftentimes face.
And so I have.
three amazing sons that I love incredibly.
(03:46):
I wanted to make sure I could be here tolove and support them.
And so that's when the whole sort ofclimbing the mountain came to be, so to
speak.
Yeah.
Well, tell us a little bit about thattimeframe.
Once you had made those decisions foryourself to transition, tell us about what
(04:08):
that process was like to think about andto approach your workplace.
And how did you handle that?
You know, back when I transitioned, itwas, I call it, it was the pre-Kaitlyn era
of our community.
People like Laverne Cox were visible,Janet Mock was visible, but it was, I'd
(04:32):
say 95% of people had no idea what itmeant to be transgender.
And personally, I didn't know what was tobe on the other side.
It was kind of like walking into theabyss.
I wasn't sure I had...
very real concerns over whether I'd beable to keep my job, whether or not I
would have to change roles, because atthat time I was leading a sales
(04:54):
organization in the Southeast part of theUS that covered Georgia, South Carolina,
North Carolina, and Virginia, not exactlya progressive hotbed of states.
I wasn't sure what was gonna be waitingfor me there.
And it was a very anxious time in my lifeand I had a great therapist that
(05:14):
was by my side through all of that.
And for me, it was just trying to have to,having to take it one day at a time.
And, you know, I had an anxiety attack.
I'd never had one of those before.
And really, I think the best advice I wasgiven was, you can't swallow the whole
apple at once.
You've just got to face what's in front ofyou and focus on the next step in front of
(05:37):
you without being overwhelmed byeverything that lies ahead that you will
have little control over.
And so that's really the approach that Itook was just trying to, you know, didn't
know what was going to happen when Ishowed up back at work in January of 2013,
um, as who I am now and who I've alwaysbeen, wasn't sure how I would be received
(06:00):
by the people I worked with, by my boss,by anyone.
And, um, somehow I've made it.
And, um, you know, I'm here to tell youthat there is another side and it's.
It's amazing and it's difficult, but soworthwhile.
Well, and tell us a little bit about, youknow, that probably that year of January
(06:26):
of 2013 and beyond.
Tell us a little bit about, you know, Ithink some members of the LGBTQ plus
community, sometimes there aren't visualand physical identification.
And as you transition, there there's achange.
And so tell us a little bit about, youknow,
(06:48):
Were people asking questions?
Did you proactively, it sounds like youvery smartly worked with a therapist and I
love the one day at a time, certainlyrecommendation because you really can't do
everything all at once as much as you'dlike to rip it off and be done.
It's not ever really done.
But tell us a little bit about maybe werepeople asking questions?
(07:10):
Did you handle that a certain way to sortof get ahead of it, if you will?
How did that unfold?
You know, I took the approach ofunderstanding that people had no idea
about what I was going through.
And I tried to create a safe, welcomingenvironment to make people feel at ease
(07:33):
and to be able to ask questions and to beable to understand and be in a safe place
and not have to...
to wait on every word or be worried aboutmaking the wrong statement or the wrong
comment or using the wrong pronoun.
For me, I felt that one, that's sort ofwho I am.
(07:54):
It's about helping others understand.
But two, my experience is that it alsomade people less threatened and less
challenged by what they were experiencing.
So they knew me as somebody differentbefore and were experiencing me a totally
different way.
you know, I had my own journey to gothrough to accept myself, and they had to
(08:16):
go through their own journey to identifyme in a different way.
And just, I think, for me, giving peoplepermission to be in that space and to not
feel like they were going to say somethingwrong or do something wrong or ask the
wrong question, I think made it easier, asI've been told from people around me, it
made it easier for them to really acceptme.
(08:38):
And the...
One of the most amazing things was, I'llalways remember the team that I led at the
time.
Yeah, I think that there was obviouslysome nervousness and hesitation seeing me
in a new gender presenting to them.
And they said, after like the first hour,it was like not even an issue because I
was so much more comfortable in my skin.
(09:00):
I was so much, it was just so obvious tothem that like, okay, you know, that's...
That's the person I used to know, butthat's Elena.
And she's wonderful.
And so I think that was really affirmingfor me to hear that from them.
That was so obvious.
And, you know, it gave me hope that I justhad to kind of continue on that path
(09:22):
forward and just be true to who I am andgive people that permission to be where
they are.
I love that.
I think it is such a balance between, asyou said, as we started our conversation,
wanting to sort of live your life andenjoy your life in peace, and then also
(09:47):
opening up your life and being vulnerableand being able to share.
I too have taken a very similar path,always in my career and my personal life,
I'm choosing and I know it's not right foreveryone, but I'm choosing.
I am open to questions and conversations.
(10:08):
I want to make sure that folks can feelcomfortable.
And it's a balance because I know a lot ofpeople are, I, I don't want these
questions.
I don't want this.
I want people to go do the work.
I want people to understand.
And I think there's a place for all ofthat, but I think it's really, I have
found, I, Iwas on the board of GLSEN, the Gay Lesbian
(10:28):
Straight Education Network that works toprevent bullying and harassment of LGBTQ
students in schools.
And I think one of the biggest insights inour research is that teachers don't want
this happening in their classroom, but thebiggest fear is they're not sure what to
(10:50):
say.
And, you know, being able to create a safeand affirming and open forum for bullying
and harassment, I think the response issimply, it's just not accepted in my
classroom.
But I think being able to have theseconversations and open that up and we
don't all have the answers.
You know, I remember coming out andtelling my family, I'm not sure what it's
(11:11):
like to be gay either.
So we'll, we'll figure this out and we'llhave a conversation.
no, exactly.
And one of the funniest experiences I hadis when I went to buy a new vehicle for
the first time and, you know, they pulledmy credit.
And the salesperson came out and he said,well, I'm really confused here.
I mean, your credit report says thatyou're somebody different.
(11:34):
And I said, well, that's me.
And you could see like his head spinningin front of me.
He said, what?
He said, have you had like all the surgerylike he pointed at my private parks.
And that's one thing that you should notask people is around what kind of
(11:56):
surgeries they've had or gender is notdefined by what's between our legs or
what's not between our legs.
And I said, in the moment I was just sothrown off, I said, had it all.
But it's just, I think.
going through life, having thoseexperiences where you're just kind of
caught off guard, like when people, youthrow them a curve ball, it's been
(12:18):
interesting.
Yeah.
And I think so much of it, one of thethings that I've learned over the years is
so much of it is I think about to yourpoint of talk of your team.
And during that time, it's about exposure.
Um, many people may not have talked with agay man and then I come out and they say,
Oh, well, I know David and I remember himfrom high school and he's this person and
(12:39):
that person.
And, and then you sort of move along.
So some of it is a little bit aboutexposure, unfortunately, just that people
haven't had it.
Well, andOne of the things I wanted to talk about
was you transitioned personally.
You have just told us about coming to facethat with your colleagues and your
(13:00):
employees.
As listeners will recall from the intro,you've made a really specific decision to
come out publicly and even in a biggerway.
I didn't mention this, but the mediaoutlets are
media outlets and you've written op-eds invery, very significant publications.
(13:22):
And obviously being in an ad beforeex-president Trump gives his acceptance
speeches is quite a significant amount ofexposure and that's certainly driving a
lot of change in attitudes and behaviors.
And hopefully also, I think from yourperspective with your organization, with
(13:43):
policy and with other, other.
significant elements of what needs to bedone.
But tell us about how did that happen?
How did you go from here I am, this is me,I'm at work to I'm actually a national
voice.
I'm going to participate in this and domore and do more for the community.
(14:03):
You know, it was not, living in NorthCarolina, which is actually my home state
where I grew up, I met my now wife, wewere then dating, and I was living with
her in Chapel Hill when they passed thenow famous HB2 bathroom bill.
And I was connected to some people that onthe periphery of what was taking place
(14:28):
there.
And I felt like,other people were trying to define what it
meant to be transgender.
And I felt like there's a whole generationof people, younger people that shouldn't
have to wait until they're in theirmidlife to transition like I did.
We now have better ability to understandwhat it means to be transgender.
(14:51):
There's healthcare available.
There's counseling available.
It shouldn't be stigmatized.
And I felt like, you know, other peoplewere trying to steal the narrative and
make it something bad.
And that really crushed me personally,because if people have the opportunity to
know who they are early in life and getthe mental health that they need and get
(15:11):
the support that they need and sociallytransition earlier in life, then they
don't have to go through all the heartacheand shame and guilt that I went through.
And so I didn't know if I was gonna bepublic or not.
I was invited to attend a rally in thestate.
and State Capitol Raleigh the day afterthe bill passed.
(15:34):
And I went and they asked me if I'd bewilling to say something.
And I decided to speak at that event andthen just one thing led to another, led to
another.
But what has driven me throughout all ofthis is, is that there is so much medical
evidence for people who are transgender.
There is no question if you talk to anyrespected medical professional.
(15:59):
There's mountains of evidence that this isnot something that people make a choice
about.
And then, you know, there's thismisconception that children are having
surgeries.
That's a falsehood.
That just does not happen.
You know, you can take puberty blockers tostop puberty from happening when then when
you get to the age of consent, havesurgery.
(16:21):
But if you don't take those pubertyblockers, you're going to have to do what
I did and what everybody in midlife doesis go through all these surgeries to
reverse your puberty.
So in many ways, these puberty blockersare surgery sparing until they can get to
the age of consent and then get thesurgeries that they need.
And I feel like, you know, that's why I'vechosen to be visible from that point until
now is, I don't want other people to tryand portray our community as something
(16:47):
that it's not.
We are just people who want to exist sideby side with them.
Our gender is no different than anybodyelse's and why it matters to somebody else
is only becauseThe fight for marriage equality was
overturned by the Supreme Court in 2015.
And all these organizations had to aimtheir hate and animus on another community
(17:09):
to try and re-litigate the issue.
And they tried to pick the weakest part ofthe LGBT community, the transgender
community, the least visible.
And if I don't stand up and say, this iswhat it looks like to be transgender, then
they get to define it.
And I think that most people in ourcommunity don't wanna be visible.
And so it's this paradox of, do we letourselves be defined by others or do we
(17:32):
choose to stand up and say, this is who weare and sit across from me and put a name
and a face with what we're talking abouthere.
That's right.
And you're right.
It's hard enough as it is to your point ofnot everyone in the community wants to be
visible.
That's getting to that point we've made acouple of times.
Well, and this work you've done has ledyou to form an organization called Great.
(17:56):
So tell us a little bit about that.
It sounds like this activism that you sortof this national platform that you were
given and you accepted and took thechallenge on has motivated you to do.
Even more, tell us a little bit aboutgrace.
Yeah, I think it's a natural progressionin the things I just described.
(18:19):
I was on the board of the TransgenderLegal Defense and Education Fund for eight
years and seven of those years where I wasthe board chair or co-chair.
And there's not a lot of transgender lednonprofits and there's so much work to be
done.
And until DEF is what the acronym for thatorganization was, does amazing impact
litigation work, which meansWhen bad laws are impacting the community,
(18:40):
how do you basically challenge those lawsand get them overturned?
And then you have another organization,National Center for Transgender Equality,
which focused on policy.
And I felt like in my professionalbackground, I spent three years leading
Pfizer's legislative grassroots program,meaning I worked very closely with the
federal lobbying team advisor and statelobbying team, worked on policy issues,
(19:04):
met with many members of Congress andelected officials.
I also led Pfizer's communications teamfor their largest business in the US.
And I felt like we're in this time again,where others are trying to define us and
there's no counter narrative.
And there was an opportunity to fill thatgap and really focus on middle America and
(19:24):
focus on giving a name and a voice and aface to what it looks like to be
transgender, to counter thisanti-transgender narrative that's being
put out there.
And so it's kind of a culmination of mynonprofit experience, my professional
experience.
And again, trying to...
since most people don't know what it lookslike, to help them understand the issue.
(19:45):
So they're hearing it in a nonpartisan,nonthreatening way that this is what it is
instead of, you know, being peoplethinking that children are having genital
mutilation.
I'm sorry, but if a child has some sort ofgenital surgery, it's only because they
were probably intersex and had to havesomething.
(20:07):
And even nowadays, that is typically,and not ethical because nowadays the child
should wait till there's the age ofconsent to correct those things that may
be correcting.
But if you don't hear that from somebody,you're gonna believe what you're being
told by the other side without questioningit because you're not thinking about why
are they saying that?
(20:27):
What's their reason for saying that?
You know, where's their money coming fromto fund that organization?
And what's their end game?
And I felt like if we can help people seethat This is what it means.
We're your doctor, your neighbor, yourlawyer, your healthcare provider, your
first responders.
We're everywhere around you.
(20:48):
We always have been for centuries.
We just choose not to be visible becauseit doesn't define us.
Yeah, it's, it sounds like a lot of truthtelling and you know, really sitting down
at the table and having discussions andreally making progress.
I really, I like that, especially at thistime with so much anti LGBTQ legislation
(21:09):
on the table with such a divisivepolitical environment in general, with a
very contentious election ahead of us.
It seems like it's perfect, perfect timingfor, for grace, for sure.
WhenElena, when you think about it, you've had
roles at some really large organizationsand have experience in the nonprofit space
as well.
(21:33):
What advice would you give to LGBTQ folksor even allies supporting, but I guess
mostly at folks who are identifying asLGBTQ plus in the workplace?
They're thinking about...
I'd like to show up differently.
I'd like to show up more authentically.
I know that there's something that I'm notdelivering or able to become because I'm
(21:57):
sort of holding myself back from being myauthentic self.
What advice would you give to employeesthat maybe they're new to the workforce
and they're just figuring it out?
One stat that I've mentioned several timeson the podcast is 50% of LGBTQ identified
employees fearthat being their authentic self will
hinder their ability to be promoted andhave a successful career.
(22:22):
So the fear is real.
So what might you suggest as somerecommendations on how to face that and
how to move that forward if employees wantto do so?
I think that's a great question and Ireally appreciate you asking that, David,
because I think it's a very real fear andI'd be lying if I said I didn't have
(22:43):
challenges in the workplace when Itransitioned and since that time too.
And I think that you have to basicallybifurcate your worlds in some ways, and
that's not to hide who you are.
But just like I was mentioning, my genderhistory doesn't define who I am.
Our companies pay us to show up and doamazing work in the workplace.
(23:06):
That's why they pay us.
They don't show that we don't get paid toshow up and be activists.
We get paid to show up and do amazingwork.
And that's what we're going to berecognized for, compensated for, and
rewarded for.
So I think that my advice is don't confuseyour identity with the work that you're
(23:27):
doing at your job and expected to do.
And you can show up in an authentic wayand not hide the fact that I have a wife
and I don't talk about my gender historybecause it's not relevant to my daily job.
But if situations come up, I don't hide iteither, right?
And I think that's where people have tofind that comfort level of what works best
(23:50):
for them.
And I think that if, in today's politicalenvironment, companies are very reticent.
to get involved in things publicly on LGBTissues or any issues, right?
There's been a backlash to that.
And so, but I think that that's differentthan how you show up in your job.
And just don't confuse the two things.
(24:11):
And don't think that your job is to be anactivist within your company.
Be involved with your employee resourcegroups.
Find your community of like people withinyour company because they're there.
And you're gonna find a great supportnetwork to draw from there.
And I think that's the beauty of it.
But always keep in mind, you're there,your end of year review is gonna depend on
(24:33):
the job that you did, nothing to do withyour identity and how you identify.
And if it is something different thanthat, then you have employee resources and
human resources to talk to you about thoseissues.
I think it's such good advice and I'lltell you, Elena, it's something that as
I've had clout for good up and runningfor, you know, half a year now and I've
(24:58):
had some really amazing discussions, thereis one thing that I will say is the most
consistent and maybe this is intuitive,maybe it isn't, but is my guess saying
first and foremost, do your job.
Do your job and do your job well and knowthat I love what you just said, which is
(25:19):
at the end of the year, you're going to berated on your performance in your job.
And I, I think that it's bringing yourwhole self to work can often be
misconstrued, I think, to some degreewith, I love what you just said with
activism and it's, it's everything andit's all or nothing.
(25:41):
AndAnd I think the reality, and I, I don't
mean to say this to listeners and to folksout there to say, you know, the world
isn't a perfect place, but the world isn'ta perfect place.
And we need to do the best we can and one,perform our job.
Two, as you said, seek your people, seekthose resources.
AndAs you've just done and as you've just
(26:02):
demonstrated, you can make a difference.
You really can make a difference as, asyou're able to, to navigate the workforce.
If you're delivering on your job functionand you're, you're improving the company's
bottom line.
Exactly.
I think we're a thousand percent alignedin that way.
Yeah, yeah.
And, you know, one of the other thingsyou've mentioned a few things, and
(26:26):
certainly your organization, which pleasetell folks how to get in touch, is I also
like to hear from my guests because of thereal vast experience and network that
folks have.
What resources might you share with folksthat are listening?
They could be identifying as LGBTQ+, theycould be allies.
(26:47):
And of course, there are members ofcompanies and organizations where they can
help make a difference.
What tools and resources for coming out orfor understanding the community or for
navigating might you suggest to folks thatare listening?
Well, I think that for any ally trying tounderstand, I still think PFLAG has some
(27:09):
of the best resources.
In fact, I had a meeting last week inWashington, DC with PFLAG and I was just
singing their praises.
Because I think that especially for alliesand family members that might have
somebody in their life that's transgender,they're trying to understand.
PFLAG is gonna come at it from a pragmaticapproach.
And they know the questions that you'rethinking, and they've got a great...
(27:32):
resource guide to help you answer all ofthose questions that you have.
So I always send people the P flag firstand foremost.
And I think that another I think reallygreat pragmatic resource for understanding
the transgender community is Aaron Reedhas a substack, Aaron Reed in the Morning,
that is unbiased, that really gets to theheart of the issues facing the community
(27:57):
and really approaches them not from a...
an activist perspective, but from ajournalistic perspective and a factual
based perspective, very much aligned withwork that we're trying to do at the Gender
Research Advisory Council on Education,which is trying to take the energy out of
both sides.
There's so much energy in the far left,there's so much energy in the far right.
(28:19):
We're just trying to speak to the peoplein the middle and help them understand.
And that's, you know, our website isgrace-now.org.
And really just trying to...
source things and provide the resourcesthat people can understand and then back
check us on where the data comes from.
And I think that's what's important is totry and weed through the rhetoric and
(28:44):
understand the data and understand theissues in their entirety and understand
that, you know, where does the bias comefrom in both arguments and try and seek
that center ground that probablyunderstands that there is bias on both
sides.
But Yeah.
There still is merit in facts.
Facts are still facts.
Yeah, yeah, those are, they're greatresources.
(29:07):
I have a very personal connection toPFLAG.
I came out myself in 1994 and was lookingfor resources on how do I bring my family
along?
And that year took my mom to the NationalPFLAG Conference and said, let's go, let's
figure this out.
She became a PFLAG chapter leader andeventually over time won a lifetime sort
(29:31):
of for her work with PFLAG.
And I too think it is an amazingorganization.
And I think such a community-based,local-based organization for its original
effort of helping parents and friends, itreally is helping the community.
And I think in some places, it's the localmeeting that folks in our community find
(29:53):
and they go to.
So I think it's such a great organization.
I'll listen to it.
to Aaron in the morning or read Aaron inthe morning.
I haven't done that yet.
And certainly thanks for sharing yourorganization as well.
So one last question, Elena, that oddlygets the most interaction on social media
(30:13):
aside from the actual episodes than anyother posts that I do.
People love to hear the responses to thisquestion.
And it's...
You're hosting a clout for good dinnerparty.
You're going to invite some members of theLGBTQ community.
And I think, you know, one of the waysthat I frame this is we've just heard
(30:35):
about your story and your background andfolks know a little more about you and
we'll certainly learn more as they seekthe resources and look at some of the
things that you've done in the community.
But.
Who sort of inspired you along the way, orwho are some icons or mentors, or who are
some folks from the community that youwere to host a Clout for Good dinner
party?
(30:56):
Who are a few people that you wouldinvite, and why might you want them at
your table?
I'll separate this into the living and thehistorical, if that's okay.
I think living, I am so fortunate on theboard of grace to have Jameson Green.
Jameson is a just, I don't know what theword adequately describe Jameson's impact
(31:23):
in the transgender community.
The reason any of us have any healthcarecoverage in the US for transgender.
healthcare is because of Jameson's work inSan Francisco, then with the human rights
campaign and getting in the corporateequality index.
Jameson is person one, which is also, hewas one of the first people I invited to
be a part of the Board of Grace andgraciously accepted my invitation.
You know, also through my work, I've beenable to get to know Mara Keasling, and she
(31:47):
founded the National Center forTransgender Equality.
And Mara has dedicated her life toeducating people and policymakers.
And I think that...
done amazing work and, you know, at a timethat nobody was doing it and built a great
organization.
So that's one person from each, they, Maraidentifies as she, her and Jameson as he,
(32:13):
him.
But then I think historically speaking,again, it goes back to something I said
earlier, people think that beingtransgender is new.
In the 1400s, there was Joan of Arc.
Now we don't know if Joan of Arc wastransgender or not.
She definitely...
cross-dressed, she presented in public asa male, she, you know, led amazing
(32:34):
military campaigns and ultimately she wasburned at the stake.
She was also a devout Catholic and I'mCatholic and identify as Catholic despite
some of the things going on at theCatholic Church.
And I think that, you know, I would loveto pick her brain to understand because
(32:55):
she found a way to exist in the world.
and challenged gender norms and wasaccepted for that and revered for that and
ultimately paid the ultimate price forthat.
But I think that also goes back to peoplewant to define us as being something new,
some phenomenon.
No, the percentage of us who exist in thisworld have always been the same.
It's just now we have an ability to bevisible.
(33:16):
So now you're seeing visibility at ayounger age.
So people have to transition midlife,which is a beautiful thing.
But we've always been here.
And so I think that would make a reallyinteresting conversation and I'm just
fortunate enough to have worked with bothMara and with Seamus in my work that I do.
And so hope that answers your question.
(33:38):
It does.
I love it.
And as you know, I served at Visa as theco-chair of the employee resource group
with Jameson and am very familiar with hisimpact, his work, his compassion, and his
dedication.
And so I share that same respect.
(33:59):
And then coincidentally, Mara came to leadsort of a keynote speech, if you will, at
a board meeting at GLSEN.
And I was hugely impressed with her workand the organization.
But I have not met Joan of Arc yet.
So that one, that, that will be, that willbe an interesting guest for sure.
(34:20):
I love it.
Well, Elena, thank you so much for yourtime today.
Thank you once again for all the work thatyou do.
It's been a real honor to have you on thepodcast as you talk about these folks that
you're impressed with.
there will be a lot of people who areequally impressed with the work that
(34:40):
you've done.
So thanks for coming on and being a guestfor Enclop for Good.
No, thank you, Dave.
And thank you for the work that you do.
And, you know, visibility matters.
And it's so amazing that you're doing thispodcast.
And thank you so much for your visibility.
Yeah, of course.
And to my listeners, thanks so much forjoining today.
Please tune in every other Wednesday for anew episode of Cloud for Good.
(35:04):
Follow us on social media and visitcloudforgood.com to subscribe to our
newsletter.
I hope this episode motivates you to useyour Cloud for Good to make a difference
in your workplace.
Hello everyone and welcome.
Clout for Good is a bi-weekly podcast thatshowcases personal and powerful
conversations with prominent LGBTQ plusexecutives who are out in the workplace.
The conversations are meant to create asupportive community and inspire LGBTQ
plus people, their employers and allies tobuild equity and inclusion in the
(00:23):
workplace.
Today I'm honored to welcome a truetrailblazer, Alaina Kupak.
Elena is currently the executive directorof portfolio strategy and analytics at
Gilead sciences, where she leads thecompany's portfolio strategy for the
virology and inflammation therapeuticareas.
Before joining Gilead, Elena was withPfizer and held roles in marketing, market
(00:48):
access, sales, and sales leadership.
Elena is the founder and president ofgrace, a nonpartisan communications and
public.
policy organization focused on challengingthe negative narrative of the transgender
community.
She's written numerous op-eds, hasappeared on several national media
outlets, and was featured in the firstnationally aired transgender awareness ad
(01:12):
depicting her being denied the use of awoman's restroom, which aired on Fox News
immediately before Donald Trump'sacceptance speech in 2016.
She worked with the U S department ofjustice, serving as one of only two named
witnesses in the United States versus thestate of North Carolina in the bathroom
(01:35):
bill case.
Elena graduated from North Carolina stateuniversity, and she also has served in the
U S Navy.
So Elena, welcome to the show.
Thank you, David.
So grateful to be here.
Such a impressive opening.
Thank you so much for all that you'redoing for the community and for all the
(01:55):
courage you've put forward to be outthere.
Be out there not only in the workplace,which we'll talk about, but also being out
there in the public eye and on media andwithin your new organization.
So thank you.
Oh, well, it is a it's a paradox for sure.
Like most people in my community, I thinkthat I wish I could just live a quiet life
(02:20):
and nobody would know that I have aninteresting medical history.
But unfortunately, the political powersthat be have decided to make our community
of a political football.
So, yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Well, let's start with the first thingthat I ask all my guests is just to tell
us about how you identify and maybe alittle bit about when you decided to share
(02:44):
your identity in the workplace.
What was that like for you?
Well, I identify as a woman and a lesbian,and I just so happen to be transgender.
It's a tiny part of my medical history.
It doesn't define me in any way.
People in my daily life don't see me asanything other than a woman.
(03:05):
You know, and so, this one is having mynails done recently and somebody was
talking about their spouse.
I said, my spouse, and she said, what doeshe do?
I said, actually, it's a she.
And so.
But I became visible, I publiclytransitioned in 2013, privately in 2012.
(03:26):
And it was at that point that I just cameto a point that I couldn't live my life
inauthentically any longer.
I really had a choice to make of choosingto live or no, or unfortunately a dark
alternative that many of my communityoftentimes face.
And so I have.
three amazing sons that I love incredibly.
(03:46):
I wanted to make sure I could be here tolove and support them.
And so that's when the whole sort ofclimbing the mountain came to be, so to
speak.
Yeah.
Well, tell us a little bit about thattimeframe.
Once you had made those decisions foryourself to transition, tell us about what
(04:08):
that process was like to think about andto approach your workplace.
And how did you handle that?
You know, back when I transitioned, itwas, I call it, it was the pre-Kaitlyn era
of our community.
People like Laverne Cox were visible,Janet Mock was visible, but it was, I'd
(04:32):
say 95% of people had no idea what itmeant to be transgender.
And personally, I didn't know what was tobe on the other side.
It was kind of like walking into theabyss.
I wasn't sure I had...
very real concerns over whether I'd beable to keep my job, whether or not I
would have to change roles, because atthat time I was leading a sales
(04:54):
organization in the Southeast part of theUS that covered Georgia, South Carolina,
North Carolina, and Virginia, not exactlya progressive hotbed of states.
I wasn't sure what was gonna be waitingfor me there.
And it was a very anxious time in my lifeand I had a great therapist that
(05:14):
was by my side through all of that.
And for me, it was just trying to have to,having to take it one day at a time.
And, you know, I had an anxiety attack.
I'd never had one of those before.
And really, I think the best advice I wasgiven was, you can't swallow the whole
apple at once.
You've just got to face what's in front ofyou and focus on the next step in front of
(05:37):
you without being overwhelmed byeverything that lies ahead that you will
have little control over.
And so that's really the approach that Itook was just trying to, you know, didn't
know what was going to happen when Ishowed up back at work in January of 2013,
um, as who I am now and who I've alwaysbeen, wasn't sure how I would be received
(06:00):
by the people I worked with, by my boss,by anyone.
And, um, somehow I've made it.
And, um, you know, I'm here to tell youthat there is another side and it's.
It's amazing and it's difficult, but soworthwhile.
Well, and tell us a little bit about, youknow, that probably that year of January
(06:26):
of 2013 and beyond.
Tell us a little bit about, you know, Ithink some members of the LGBTQ plus
community, sometimes there aren't visualand physical identification.
And as you transition, there there's achange.
And so tell us a little bit about, youknow,
(06:48):
Were people asking questions?
Did you proactively, it sounds like youvery smartly worked with a therapist and I
love the one day at a time, certainlyrecommendation because you really can't do
everything all at once as much as you'dlike to rip it off and be done.
It's not ever really done.
But tell us a little bit about maybe werepeople asking questions?
(07:10):
Did you handle that a certain way to sortof get ahead of it, if you will?
How did that unfold?
You know, I took the approach ofunderstanding that people had no idea
about what I was going through.
And I tried to create a safe, welcomingenvironment to make people feel at ease
(07:33):
and to be able to ask questions and to beable to understand and be in a safe place
and not have to...
to wait on every word or be worried aboutmaking the wrong statement or the wrong
comment or using the wrong pronoun.
For me, I felt that one, that's sort ofwho I am.
(07:54):
It's about helping others understand.
But two, my experience is that it alsomade people less threatened and less
challenged by what they were experiencing.
So they knew me as somebody differentbefore and were experiencing me a totally
different way.
you know, I had my own journey to gothrough to accept myself, and they had to
(08:16):
go through their own journey to identifyme in a different way.
And just, I think, for me, giving peoplepermission to be in that space and to not
feel like they were going to say somethingwrong or do something wrong or ask the
wrong question, I think made it easier, asI've been told from people around me, it
made it easier for them to really acceptme.
(08:38):
And the...
One of the most amazing things was, I'llalways remember the team that I led at the
time.
Yeah, I think that there was obviouslysome nervousness and hesitation seeing me
in a new gender presenting to them.
And they said, after like the first hour,it was like not even an issue because I
was so much more comfortable in my skin.
(09:00):
I was so much, it was just so obvious tothem that like, okay, you know, that's...
That's the person I used to know, butthat's Elena.
And she's wonderful.
And so I think that was really affirmingfor me to hear that from them.
That was so obvious.
And, you know, it gave me hope that I justhad to kind of continue on that path
(09:22):
forward and just be true to who I am andgive people that permission to be where
they are.
I love that.
I think it is such a balance between, asyou said, as we started our conversation,
wanting to sort of live your life andenjoy your life in peace, and then also
(09:47):
opening up your life and being vulnerableand being able to share.
I too have taken a very similar path,always in my career and my personal life,
I'm choosing and I know it's not right foreveryone, but I'm choosing.
I am open to questions and conversations.
(10:08):
I want to make sure that folks can feelcomfortable.
And it's a balance because I know a lot ofpeople are, I, I don't want these
questions.
I don't want this.
I want people to go do the work.
I want people to understand.
And I think there's a place for all ofthat, but I think it's really, I have
found, I, Iwas on the board of GLSEN, the Gay Lesbian
(10:28):
Straight Education Network that works toprevent bullying and harassment of LGBTQ
students in schools.
And I think one of the biggest insights inour research is that teachers don't want
this happening in their classroom, but thebiggest fear is they're not sure what to
(10:50):
say.
And, you know, being able to create a safeand affirming and open forum for bullying
and harassment, I think the response issimply, it's just not accepted in my
classroom.
But I think being able to have theseconversations and open that up and we
don't all have the answers.
You know, I remember coming out andtelling my family, I'm not sure what it's
(11:11):
like to be gay either.
So we'll, we'll figure this out and we'llhave a conversation.
no, exactly.
And one of the funniest experiences I hadis when I went to buy a new vehicle for
the first time and, you know, they pulledmy credit.
And the salesperson came out and he said,well, I'm really confused here.
I mean, your credit report says thatyou're somebody different.
(11:34):
And I said, well, that's me.
And you could see like his head spinningin front of me.
He said, what?
He said, have you had like all the surgerylike he pointed at my private parks.
And that's one thing that you should notask people is around what kind of
(11:56):
surgeries they've had or gender is notdefined by what's between our legs or
what's not between our legs.
And I said, in the moment I was just sothrown off, I said, had it all.
But it's just, I think.
going through life, having thoseexperiences where you're just kind of
caught off guard, like when people, youthrow them a curve ball, it's been
(12:18):
interesting.
Yeah.
And I think so much of it, one of thethings that I've learned over the years is
so much of it is I think about to yourpoint of talk of your team.
And during that time, it's about exposure.
Um, many people may not have talked with agay man and then I come out and they say,
Oh, well, I know David and I remember himfrom high school and he's this person and
(12:39):
that person.
And, and then you sort of move along.
So some of it is a little bit aboutexposure, unfortunately, just that people
haven't had it.
Well, andOne of the things I wanted to talk about
was you transitioned personally.
You have just told us about coming to facethat with your colleagues and your
(13:00):
employees.
As listeners will recall from the intro,you've made a really specific decision to
come out publicly and even in a biggerway.
I didn't mention this, but the mediaoutlets are
media outlets and you've written op-eds invery, very significant publications.
(13:22):
And obviously being in an ad beforeex-president Trump gives his acceptance
speeches is quite a significant amount ofexposure and that's certainly driving a
lot of change in attitudes and behaviors.
And hopefully also, I think from yourperspective with your organization, with
(13:43):
policy and with other, other.
significant elements of what needs to bedone.
But tell us about how did that happen?
How did you go from here I am, this is me,I'm at work to I'm actually a national
voice.
I'm going to participate in this and domore and do more for the community.
(14:03):
You know, it was not, living in NorthCarolina, which is actually my home state
where I grew up, I met my now wife, wewere then dating, and I was living with
her in Chapel Hill when they passed thenow famous HB2 bathroom bill.
And I was connected to some people that onthe periphery of what was taking place
(14:28):
there.
And I felt like,other people were trying to define what it
meant to be transgender.
And I felt like there's a whole generationof people, younger people that shouldn't
have to wait until they're in theirmidlife to transition like I did.
We now have better ability to understandwhat it means to be transgender.
(14:51):
There's healthcare available.
There's counseling available.
It shouldn't be stigmatized.
And I felt like, you know, other peoplewere trying to steal the narrative and
make it something bad.
And that really crushed me personally,because if people have the opportunity to
know who they are early in life and getthe mental health that they need and get
(15:11):
the support that they need and sociallytransition earlier in life, then they
don't have to go through all the heartacheand shame and guilt that I went through.
And so I didn't know if I was gonna bepublic or not.
I was invited to attend a rally in thestate.
and State Capitol Raleigh the day afterthe bill passed.
(15:34):
And I went and they asked me if I'd bewilling to say something.
And I decided to speak at that event andthen just one thing led to another, led to
another.
But what has driven me throughout all ofthis is, is that there is so much medical
evidence for people who are transgender.
There is no question if you talk to anyrespected medical professional.
(15:59):
There's mountains of evidence that this isnot something that people make a choice
about.
And then, you know, there's thismisconception that children are having
surgeries.
That's a falsehood.
That just does not happen.
You know, you can take puberty blockers tostop puberty from happening when then when
you get to the age of consent, havesurgery.
(16:21):
But if you don't take those pubertyblockers, you're going to have to do what
I did and what everybody in midlife doesis go through all these surgeries to
reverse your puberty.
So in many ways, these puberty blockersare surgery sparing until they can get to
the age of consent and then get thesurgeries that they need.
And I feel like, you know, that's why I'vechosen to be visible from that point until
now is, I don't want other people to tryand portray our community as something
(16:47):
that it's not.
We are just people who want to exist sideby side with them.
Our gender is no different than anybodyelse's and why it matters to somebody else
is only becauseThe fight for marriage equality was
overturned by the Supreme Court in 2015.
And all these organizations had to aimtheir hate and animus on another community
(17:09):
to try and re-litigate the issue.
And they tried to pick the weakest part ofthe LGBT community, the transgender
community, the least visible.
And if I don't stand up and say, this iswhat it looks like to be transgender, then
they get to define it.
And I think that most people in ourcommunity don't wanna be visible.
And so it's this paradox of, do we letourselves be defined by others or do we
(17:32):
choose to stand up and say, this is who weare and sit across from me and put a name
and a face with what we're talking abouthere.
That's right.
And you're right.
It's hard enough as it is to your point ofnot everyone in the community wants to be
visible.
That's getting to that point we've made acouple of times.
Well, and this work you've done has ledyou to form an organization called Great.
(17:56):
So tell us a little bit about that.
It sounds like this activism that you sortof this national platform that you were
given and you accepted and took thechallenge on has motivated you to do.
Even more, tell us a little bit aboutgrace.
Yeah, I think it's a natural progressionin the things I just described.
(18:19):
I was on the board of the TransgenderLegal Defense and Education Fund for eight
years and seven of those years where I wasthe board chair or co-chair.
And there's not a lot of transgender lednonprofits and there's so much work to be
done.
And until DEF is what the acronym for thatorganization was, does amazing impact
litigation work, which meansWhen bad laws are impacting the community,
(18:40):
how do you basically challenge those lawsand get them overturned?
And then you have another organization,National Center for Transgender Equality,
which focused on policy.
And I felt like in my professionalbackground, I spent three years leading
Pfizer's legislative grassroots program,meaning I worked very closely with the
federal lobbying team advisor and statelobbying team, worked on policy issues,
(19:04):
met with many members of Congress andelected officials.
I also led Pfizer's communications teamfor their largest business in the US.
And I felt like we're in this time again,where others are trying to define us and
there's no counter narrative.
And there was an opportunity to fill thatgap and really focus on middle America and
(19:24):
focus on giving a name and a voice and aface to what it looks like to be
transgender, to counter thisanti-transgender narrative that's being
put out there.
And so it's kind of a culmination of mynonprofit experience, my professional
experience.
And again, trying to...
since most people don't know what it lookslike, to help them understand the issue.
(19:45):
So they're hearing it in a nonpartisan,nonthreatening way that this is what it is
instead of, you know, being peoplethinking that children are having genital
mutilation.
I'm sorry, but if a child has some sort ofgenital surgery, it's only because they
were probably intersex and had to havesomething.
(20:07):
And even nowadays, that is typically,and not ethical because nowadays the child
should wait till there's the age ofconsent to correct those things that may
be correcting.
But if you don't hear that from somebody,you're gonna believe what you're being
told by the other side without questioningit because you're not thinking about why
are they saying that?
(20:27):
What's their reason for saying that?
You know, where's their money coming fromto fund that organization?
And what's their end game?
And I felt like if we can help people seethat This is what it means.
We're your doctor, your neighbor, yourlawyer, your healthcare provider, your
first responders.
We're everywhere around you.
(20:48):
We always have been for centuries.
We just choose not to be visible becauseit doesn't define us.
Yeah, it's, it sounds like a lot of truthtelling and you know, really sitting down
at the table and having discussions andreally making progress.
I really, I like that, especially at thistime with so much anti LGBTQ legislation
(21:09):
on the table with such a divisivepolitical environment in general, with a
very contentious election ahead of us.
It seems like it's perfect, perfect timingfor, for grace, for sure.
WhenElena, when you think about it, you've had
roles at some really large organizationsand have experience in the nonprofit space
as well.
(21:33):
What advice would you give to LGBTQ folksor even allies supporting, but I guess
mostly at folks who are identifying asLGBTQ plus in the workplace?
They're thinking about...
I'd like to show up differently.
I'd like to show up more authentically.
I know that there's something that I'm notdelivering or able to become because I'm
(21:57):
sort of holding myself back from being myauthentic self.
What advice would you give to employeesthat maybe they're new to the workforce
and they're just figuring it out?
One stat that I've mentioned several timeson the podcast is 50% of LGBTQ identified
employees fearthat being their authentic self will
hinder their ability to be promoted andhave a successful career.
(22:22):
So the fear is real.
So what might you suggest as somerecommendations on how to face that and
how to move that forward if employees wantto do so?
I think that's a great question and Ireally appreciate you asking that, David,
because I think it's a very real fear andI'd be lying if I said I didn't have
(22:43):
challenges in the workplace when Itransitioned and since that time too.
And I think that you have to basicallybifurcate your worlds in some ways, and
that's not to hide who you are.
But just like I was mentioning, my genderhistory doesn't define who I am.
Our companies pay us to show up and doamazing work in the workplace.
(23:06):
That's why they pay us.
They don't show that we don't get paid toshow up and be activists.
We get paid to show up and do amazingwork.
And that's what we're going to berecognized for, compensated for, and
rewarded for.
So I think that my advice is don't confuseyour identity with the work that you're
(23:27):
doing at your job and expected to do.
And you can show up in an authentic wayand not hide the fact that I have a wife
and I don't talk about my gender historybecause it's not relevant to my daily job.
But if situations come up, I don't hide iteither, right?
And I think that's where people have tofind that comfort level of what works best
(23:50):
for them.
And I think that if, in today's politicalenvironment, companies are very reticent.
to get involved in things publicly on LGBTissues or any issues, right?
There's been a backlash to that.
And so, but I think that that's differentthan how you show up in your job.
And just don't confuse the two things.
(24:11):
And don't think that your job is to be anactivist within your company.
Be involved with your employee resourcegroups.
Find your community of like people withinyour company because they're there.
And you're gonna find a great supportnetwork to draw from there.
And I think that's the beauty of it.
But always keep in mind, you're there,your end of year review is gonna depend on
(24:33):
the job that you did, nothing to do withyour identity and how you identify.
And if it is something different thanthat, then you have employee resources and
human resources to talk to you about thoseissues.
I think it's such good advice and I'lltell you, Elena, it's something that as
I've had clout for good up and runningfor, you know, half a year now and I've
(24:58):
had some really amazing discussions, thereis one thing that I will say is the most
consistent and maybe this is intuitive,maybe it isn't, but is my guess saying
first and foremost, do your job.
Do your job and do your job well and knowthat I love what you just said, which is
(25:19):
at the end of the year, you're going to berated on your performance in your job.
And I, I think that it's bringing yourwhole self to work can often be
misconstrued, I think, to some degreewith, I love what you just said with
activism and it's, it's everything andit's all or nothing.
(25:41):
AndAnd I think the reality, and I, I don't
mean to say this to listeners and to folksout there to say, you know, the world
isn't a perfect place, but the world isn'ta perfect place.
And we need to do the best we can and one,perform our job.
Two, as you said, seek your people, seekthose resources.
AndAs you've just done and as you've just
(26:02):
demonstrated, you can make a difference.
You really can make a difference as, asyou're able to, to navigate the workforce.
If you're delivering on your job functionand you're, you're improving the company's
bottom line.
Exactly.
I think we're a thousand percent alignedin that way.
Yeah, yeah.
And, you know, one of the other thingsyou've mentioned a few things, and
(26:26):
certainly your organization, which pleasetell folks how to get in touch, is I also
like to hear from my guests because of thereal vast experience and network that
folks have.
What resources might you share with folksthat are listening?
They could be identifying as LGBTQ+, theycould be allies.
(26:47):
And of course, there are members ofcompanies and organizations where they can
help make a difference.
What tools and resources for coming out orfor understanding the community or for
navigating might you suggest to folks thatare listening?
Well, I think that for any ally trying tounderstand, I still think PFLAG has some
(27:09):
of the best resources.
In fact, I had a meeting last week inWashington, DC with PFLAG and I was just
singing their praises.
Because I think that especially for alliesand family members that might have
somebody in their life that's transgender,they're trying to understand.
PFLAG is gonna come at it from a pragmaticapproach.
And they know the questions that you'rethinking, and they've got a great...
(27:32):
resource guide to help you answer all ofthose questions that you have.
So I always send people the P flag firstand foremost.
And I think that another I think reallygreat pragmatic resource for understanding
the transgender community is Aaron Reedhas a substack, Aaron Reed in the Morning,
that is unbiased, that really gets to theheart of the issues facing the community
(27:57):
and really approaches them not from a...
an activist perspective, but from ajournalistic perspective and a factual
based perspective, very much aligned withwork that we're trying to do at the Gender
Research Advisory Council on Education,which is trying to take the energy out of
both sides.
There's so much energy in the far left,there's so much energy in the far right.
(28:19):
We're just trying to speak to the peoplein the middle and help them understand.
And that's, you know, our website isgrace-now.org.
And really just trying to...
source things and provide the resourcesthat people can understand and then back
check us on where the data comes from.
And I think that's what's important is totry and weed through the rhetoric and
(28:44):
understand the data and understand theissues in their entirety and understand
that, you know, where does the bias comefrom in both arguments and try and seek
that center ground that probablyunderstands that there is bias on both
sides.
But Yeah.
There still is merit in facts.
Facts are still facts.
Yeah, yeah, those are, they're greatresources.
(29:07):
I have a very personal connection toPFLAG.
I came out myself in 1994 and was lookingfor resources on how do I bring my family
along?
And that year took my mom to the NationalPFLAG Conference and said, let's go, let's
figure this out.
She became a PFLAG chapter leader andeventually over time won a lifetime sort
(29:31):
of for her work with PFLAG.
And I too think it is an amazingorganization.
And I think such a community-based,local-based organization for its original
effort of helping parents and friends, itreally is helping the community.
And I think in some places, it's the localmeeting that folks in our community find
(29:53):
and they go to.
So I think it's such a great organization.
I'll listen to it.
to Aaron in the morning or read Aaron inthe morning.
I haven't done that yet.
And certainly thanks for sharing yourorganization as well.
So one last question, Elena, that oddlygets the most interaction on social media
(30:13):
aside from the actual episodes than anyother posts that I do.
People love to hear the responses to thisquestion.
And it's...
You're hosting a clout for good dinnerparty.
You're going to invite some members of theLGBTQ community.
And I think, you know, one of the waysthat I frame this is we've just heard
(30:35):
about your story and your background andfolks know a little more about you and
we'll certainly learn more as they seekthe resources and look at some of the
things that you've done in the community.
But.
Who sort of inspired you along the way, orwho are some icons or mentors, or who are
some folks from the community that youwere to host a Clout for Good dinner
party?
(30:56):
Who are a few people that you wouldinvite, and why might you want them at
your table?
I'll separate this into the living and thehistorical, if that's okay.
I think living, I am so fortunate on theboard of grace to have Jameson Green.
Jameson is a just, I don't know what theword adequately describe Jameson's impact
(31:23):
in the transgender community.
The reason any of us have any healthcarecoverage in the US for transgender.
healthcare is because of Jameson's work inSan Francisco, then with the human rights
campaign and getting in the corporateequality index.
Jameson is person one, which is also, hewas one of the first people I invited to
be a part of the Board of Grace andgraciously accepted my invitation.
You know, also through my work, I've beenable to get to know Mara Keasling, and she
(31:47):
founded the National Center forTransgender Equality.
And Mara has dedicated her life toeducating people and policymakers.
And I think that...
done amazing work and, you know, at a timethat nobody was doing it and built a great
organization.
So that's one person from each, they, Maraidentifies as she, her and Jameson as he,
(32:13):
him.
But then I think historically speaking,again, it goes back to something I said
earlier, people think that beingtransgender is new.
In the 1400s, there was Joan of Arc.
Now we don't know if Joan of Arc wastransgender or not.
She definitely...
cross-dressed, she presented in public asa male, she, you know, led amazing
(32:34):
military campaigns and ultimately she wasburned at the stake.
She was also a devout Catholic and I'mCatholic and identify as Catholic despite
some of the things going on at theCatholic Church.
And I think that, you know, I would loveto pick her brain to understand because
(32:55):
she found a way to exist in the world.
and challenged gender norms and wasaccepted for that and revered for that and
ultimately paid the ultimate price forthat.
But I think that also goes back to peoplewant to define us as being something new,
some phenomenon.
No, the percentage of us who exist in thisworld have always been the same.
It's just now we have an ability to bevisible.
(33:16):
So now you're seeing visibility at ayounger age.
So people have to transition midlife,which is a beautiful thing.
But we've always been here.
And so I think that would make a reallyinteresting conversation and I'm just
fortunate enough to have worked with bothMara and with Seamus in my work that I do.
And so hope that answers your question.
(33:38):
It does.
I love it.
And as you know, I served at Visa as theco-chair of the employee resource group
with Jameson and am very familiar with hisimpact, his work, his compassion, and his
dedication.
And so I share that same respect.
(33:59):
And then coincidentally, Mara came to leadsort of a keynote speech, if you will, at
a board meeting at GLSEN.
And I was hugely impressed with her workand the organization.
But I have not met Joan of Arc yet.
So that one, that, that will be, that willbe an interesting guest for sure.
(34:20):
I love it.
Well, Elena, thank you so much for yourtime today.
Thank you once again for all the work thatyou do.
It's been a real honor to have you on thepodcast as you talk about these folks that
you're impressed with.
there will be a lot of people who areequally impressed with the work that
(34:40):
you've done.
So thanks for coming on and being a guestfor Enclop for Good.
No, thank you, Dave.
And thank you for the work that you do.
And, you know, visibility matters.
And it's so amazing that you're doing thispodcast.
And thank you so much for your visibility.
Yeah, of course.
And to my listeners, thanks so much forjoining today.
Please tune in every other Wednesday for anew episode of Cloud for Good.
(35:04):
Follow us on social media and visitcloudforgood.com to subscribe to our
newsletter.
I hope this episode motivates you to useyour Cloud for Good to make a difference
in your workplace.
Popular Podcasts
Betrayal Weekly
Betrayal Weekly is back for a new season. Every Thursday, Betrayal Weekly shares first-hand accounts of broken trust, shocking deceptions, and the trail of destruction they leave behind. Hosted by Andrea Gunning, this weekly ongoing series digs into real-life stories of betrayal and the aftermath. From stories of double lives to dark discoveries, these are cautionary tales and accounts of resilience against all odds. From the producers of the critically acclaimed Betrayal series, Betrayal Weekly drops new episodes every Thursday. If you would like to share your story, you can reach out to the Betrayal Team by emailing them at betrayalpod@gmail.com and follow us on Instagram at @betrayalpod and @glasspodcasts. Please join our Substack for additional exclusive content, curated book recommendations, and community discussions. Sign up FREE by clicking this link Beyond Betrayal Substack. Join our community dedicated to truth, resilience, and healing. Your voice matters! Be a part of our Betrayal journey on Substack.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.