Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
The vast majority of straightpeople that I've worked with,
overwhelming majority ofstraight people I've worked
with are very accepting andwelcoming and not at all
kind of bigoted.
Um, but we all say stupidthings that may be insensitive
to people, and that certainlyhappened to me.
And it just causes you to pauseand just feel uncomfortable
(00:22):
for a moment.
But you know what?
We also have to just measureintent with action.
Hello everyone, and welcome.
Clout for Good is a bi weeklypodcast that showcases personal
and powerful conversations withprominent LGBTQ+ executives who
are out in the workplace.
The conversations are meant tocreate a supportive community
(00:44):
to inspire LGBTQ+ people,their employers, and allies to
build equity and inclusionin the workplace.
Today, I'm honored towelcome Brad Jakeman.
Brad is currently senioradvisor at the Boston
Consulting Group, oneof the world's leading
management consultancies,and Brad is a co-founder and
managing partner ofRethink Food,
which identifies, invests inand helps scale businesses that
(01:08):
are digitally disrupting thelegacy food system to make it
more equitable and sustainable.
Prior to co-foundingRethink Food, Brad spent almost
ten years aspresident of PepsiCo's Global
Beverage Group, where he ledglobal corporate strategy,
brand building, design,advertising,
marketing innovationand branded content.
(01:28):
Brad has also held seniormarketing roles at
Ogilvy City, Macy's,and Activision Blizzard.
He also gives histime to other organizations,
including the Humane Society,the New York LGBT Center, and a
variety of for profitand nonprofit organizations.
Brad, welcome to the show.
Hey, David, it's greatto be here.
(01:50):
Thank you for having me.
Yeah.
Of course.
Great to have you here.
Well, let's let's jump in.
The first thing, um, that thatI talk about with guests of
Clout for good is tellme a little bit about how
you identify, share a littlebit with us, if you can,
about um, maybe your coming out.
Or as we know, it's often notjust one coming out story or
(02:11):
maybe some of your experiencescoming out, um, throughout your
career and sort of what thosewere like for you.
Um, yeah.
So I identify I'm a cisgender,um, gay man, and I, uh, look,
I would love to say, uh, or I'dlove to have some sort of
(02:31):
interesting story about mycoming out in
a professional context.
Um, but unfortunately,there wasn't one in terms of.
I think itsomewhat happened organically.
Um, I never had a, uh, kind ofa mic drop moment where I stood
before people and announcedthat I was gay.
(02:53):
And that's largely because, um,I think while how I identify as
obviously an important part ofwho I am, it is nowhere near
my defining characteristic.
And so in aprofessional context, it didn't
feel to me, um, and toone event, which I'm happy to
(03:13):
talk about later, that, uh,that I really needed to make
any sort ofproclamation or announcement.
I didn't I was fortunate enoughto work in great
companies with, uh,great bosses and
amazing colleagues, and I neverfelt there would be a fear for
(03:34):
me expressing who I wasso I didn't have to,
unlike many people, have tohide my identity.
But nor did I have, um,any compelling reason to really
announce it to the world.
Um.
Well, that's it's great.
I know a lot of people,you know, don't feel that way.
(03:55):
A lot of people have had atough time in the workplace.
And one thing I'minterested in, you know,
with your background and,and as I mentioned, you know,
coming out isan ongoing experience.
And maybe to your point,isn't a mic drop moment.
But there's often times where,you know, maybe we're making
decisions of what to share andwhat not to share.
(04:16):
I know that McKinsey has areport out that says,
you know, LGBTQ.
Plus, people are often talkingabout something related to
their authentic self sort ofonce a week in the workplace.
So it's something ongoing,but with your background,
which I think is, you know,one is so impressive, but it's
amazing with your, your boardexperience for for profit and
(04:38):
nonprofit and theagency experiences, you've had
the corporate with some of thethe biggest brands in
the world, how has navigatingthat as an out executive been?
Have there been any differencesor was in fact across all
of those, you know,the experience similar?
How how has navigating those orwhat challenges or, you know,
(05:01):
opportunities have come up thatvary across all of those
experiences?
Look, I think thechallenge that, uh,
we unfortunately, as a businesscommunity face today with, uh,
the majority of leadershipteams in large companies and
even small and mediumsized companies, boards,
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certainly of companies, is adiversity issue at large.
So it's not uniqueto the LGBTQ community,
although representation,for instance, on boards of
directors and uh, CEO the CEOsuite for sure is, uh,
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there's big gaps when itcomes to LGBTQ.
But I think the broader issueis one of diversity.
And one of the thingsthroughout my career that has
always made me feeluncomfortable is when I'm in
groups that are homogenous inthe workplace, I find them to
be groups that don't have agreat proclivity to inspire new
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and breakthrough thinking,which is what most, uh,
companies need right nowbecause everybody has the same
shared experience, the sameeducational background,
often are of the samegender over, often are of the
same sexual orientation.
And I think that is an issuefor the LGBTQ community as much
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as it is forany underrepresented,
underrepresented groups.
Um, black Americans, um, women.
Still, the fact that we call50% of our population a
minority is, uh,a terrifying idea.
Uh, but I think the issue isdiversity at large, which,
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of course,impacts the LGBTQ community.
It's such a good point.
And, Brad, what do you think?
You know, with having seniorsenior roles and and running an
organization?
And what do you think are somethings that, you know, a lot of
listeners have Clout for Good?
Are are folks who identify aspart of the queer community,
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or maybe they're allies, but alot of folks are looking for
ways that their company canmake a difference.
What are what are some thingsthat you think companies can do
to help with this, to helpcreate a more equitable and
inclusive and diverse,as you said, workplace.
Look, I think representation isan important part.
(07:33):
Um, and you mentioneda McKinsey study.
Um, BCG actually did asignificant piece of work
amongst 2000 LGBTQ employees.
Um, and actually 2000 straightemployees across the U.S.
and the, uh, the numbers werequite surprising because those
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of us who live in certain partsof the United States and work
in certain companies tend totake a lot of the acceptance
of LGBT, theLGBTQ community, for granted.
But this study showed that 40%of LGBT employees are still
closeted at work, and 26% arewish they they could be out.
(08:22):
Um, 36% of those employees havelied or covered up part of
their identities inthe past year.
Um, and of those who are out,54% of them remain closeted to
their clientsand their customers.
So we have a long way to go.
(08:42):
And what I mentioned, uh,in answer to your
first question, that I didn'treally feel the need to
proclaim my identity until, um,recently in the workforce,
because it wasn't mydefining characteristic, but I
learned that it was importantfor me to do it
for other people.
(09:03):
And what I mean by that is, uh,when I was at PepsiCo, I was
the executive sponsor of, um,the LGBTQ ERG, and I just, uh,
was so shocked, actually.
And it must it was probably mynaivete and my privilege in
(09:25):
having grown up inorganizations that were, uh,
very accepting ofour community, as was PepsiCo.
But the fact that somebody whowas the president of Global
Beverages at PepsiCo was alsogay was such an
inspiration to, uh,younger people in the
(09:46):
organization that made it, uh,I felt more compelling for
me to, I guess,be more articulate, um,
more present at LGBTQ events,uh, more out in the workforce
beyond which I ever feltcompelled to do.
(10:09):
And Brad, I it's I soappreciate you sharing that.
I've had somany similar experiences.
And quite frankly, as wetalked, that's one of the
reasons that I, I started Cloutfor Good was I
really realized, you know,for me, you're like your
example at PepsiCo.
It's, you know, I was workingfor an organization where we
had a call center inOklahoma City, and I went there
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for an all hands meeting,a training meeting, and,
you know, talked as who I was.
And to your point,wasn't necessarily talking
specifically about my gaynessor anything like that.
But I had several employeescome up to me afterwards
and say, you know, it's amazingthat our one of our leaders is
out and talks aboutand is confident it really.
(10:54):
And one employee said,this really gives me hope that
I can be myself at work.
And I'm I also, you know,years into being out in
the workplace, I sort ofthought about National Coming
Out Day and Ithought, well, I'm not sure
that's important anymore.
And then I've really come torealize as you have,
how important it is.
And in fact, I'm going to belaunching Cloud for Good on
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National Coming Out Day because,you know, I see also having
experience with ERGs.
You know, these organizations,they want community.
They want connection.
Your stat about board members.
You know they're notnecessarily seeing it.
So you know sharing thesestories is important.
I know your story will be, um,inspiring and important to
folks and I your BCG study,that these stats around still
(11:40):
being closeted ornot authentically, you know,
being able to come out at work.
What do you think are.
You know, what are some of thereasons you think that that
still exists today?
Why do you think people,you know, you see sort of the
changes in media andrepresentation out there of
queer people changingdramatically over the years?
(12:00):
Why do you think those numbersin my mind, are still so high
in the workplace?
Well, I think that, um, so whenwe talk about representation,
the term we often hear,the corporate term we often
hear is, um,diversity and inclusion.
And I think, um, we havefocused more on the first half
(12:24):
than we have on the second halfin that I think we have
made some progress.
I think we need tomake a lot more progress in
creating diverse, um,employee bases,
diverse leadership teamsand diverse boards.
We've certainly when I look at,uh, where we were ten
(12:45):
years ago, we have certainlyprogressed on diversity,
nowhere near where weneed to be.
But still we have moved.
Um, we've moved forward.
It's really theinclusion piece, I think,
that we have not necessarily,um, put as much emphasis on.
(13:05):
I mean, that that's the oldsaying is diversity is being
invited to the prom.
Uh, inclusion is beingasked to dance.
And so I think we justneed to do a lot more work
around that.
And, look, I think also in theBCG study, um, it found that
75% of those who have beensurveyed experienced some
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negative day to day kind ofinteractions that are relative
to their identity, that couldbe determined or were
classified askind of microaggressions.
These are littlethrowaway lines, uh,
insensitivity, assumptions beingmade, um,
that cause people not tofeel included, to feel like
(13:54):
they are other.
And I think that's going tocome with kind of raising
awareness of it.
The vast majority of, uh,and I felt some of those
microaggressions through mycareer as, as well.
But I even callingthem microaggressions, I'm kind
of hesitant to do because thatkind of says there's some
(14:16):
intent behind it.
I think a lot of it is the vastmajority of straight people
that I've worked with,overwhelming majority of
straight people I've workedwith are very accepting and
welcoming and not at allkind of bigoted.
Um, but we also stupid thingsthat may be insensitive to
(14:36):
people and that certainlyhappened to me.
And it just causes you to pauseand just feel uncomfortable
for a moment.
But you know what?
I also look, I'm a little bitold school in this too.
I think it's also upto us as a community.
I mean, inin any professional context,
(14:56):
you've got to have thick skinabout a lot of things.
And while I'm not obviouslysaying that these
microaggressions aregood things, but we also have
to just measure intent withaction as well.
And, um, perhaps we coulddo we could educate some of
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our allies, um, a little more.
Not again, not that it's up tous to do all the heavy lifting
to get accepted into workplaces.
I think companies can doa lot better in terms of
sensitivity training, um,particularly around
the LGBTQ community.
But we also just can't.
(15:39):
Can't a little bit.
Kind of take this onboard too much.
Yeah.
Um.
And assume malicious intent.
Yeah.
And I think that's the,you know, everyone's on their
own journey, right?
We need to meet peoplewhere they are.
I think that's really,really valid.
And I think you're right.
It's, you know, more educationand more training and and I
like that, you know, not reallyassuming this malicious intent
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right off the bat,I think is important.
And I think as folks,you know, one thing I'd
love to, to understand yourperspective on is, you know,
you have a younger queerprofessional who's, you know,
new to the workforce.
And often they're thinking,I want to show that,
that I'm valuable, I want toget that next promotion.
Or you have, um,potentially a more closeted,
(16:22):
maybe tenured queer employee.
But, you know, what advice doyou have to, you know,
maybe either of those typesof employees, how might they
start to showup more authentically?
What what advice do you havefor folks that are thinking
about I'd like to tellmore about myself.
I'd like to, you know,I actually brought it's funny
(16:44):
because after some ofthese conversations, I'll have
out in, you know, the industryor at marketing forums, etc.
, some employees will still andqueer identified employees will
come up to me and say, so wow,on Monday with your in your
C-suite meeting, you reallytalk about what you and your
partner did over the weekend.
(17:04):
And I it's that question stillcomes to me and I get taken a
little bit aback by it.
And I think, you know, wow,that was maybe a question I had
when I came outclose to 25 years ago.
And we still, you know,there's still that question of
how do I show up and what howwhat risk do I take and what
does that look like?
So what advice do you have forfolks that are thinking about
(17:26):
sharing more about themselvesin the workplace?
Oh, look, I think, um,you do what makes you happy.
I mean, seriously, I as Isaid earlier, I was fortunate
in that I didn't ever feel thatthere were major barriers to me
(17:48):
kind of showing upauthentically or
talking about, um.
Uh, the fact that I was gay.
Um, but that's because I didn't.
As I said earlier, I didn'tfeel any compelling desire
to do so.
I mean, I, um, but I recognizethat some people might.
(18:09):
And I think that, um, you theif if you're really compelled,
uh, to do that and you feelthat it's such an important
part of who you are, and I'm abig advocate of bringing your
whole self to work.
Um, if if, if you really needto do that, I think you have to.
(18:33):
And if you have some negativeblowback on that, depending on
who it's from.
I mean, if it's from an if it'sfrom co-workers and so on,
have a conversation with them.
Um, if it's fromyour boss, that's a,
that's a different issue.
Um, you may have totake that up.
(18:53):
Um, with HR, all ofthese things, by the way,
scary things to do.
And so I completely represent acompletely understand that my
experience is different thanmany people's experience.
And that kind of raising yourhand and going to H.R., um,
to talk about this is somethingthat's very daunting,
(19:15):
particularly if you are youngerin your career.
But look, at the end ofthe day, if you're if you don't
do that, then unfortunately,I think, um, that isn't the
company for you.
Uh, and that's areally sad reality.
But I don't know whatelse to say.
(19:36):
I'm really sensitive, David,to making sure that we, uh,
don't present ourselvesas victims, that everybody else
has to help us, um,do what we want to do.
I think there absolutelyhas to be.
(19:56):
Infrastructure, culture,policy to help us, but we also
have to movethings forward ourselves.
And if we don'thave the conversations that are
productive and come from a verygood place, um, with certainly
with colleagues, um, I yourboss is is a separate issue and
(20:19):
a more daunting one, but unlesswe kind of raise these
issues ourselves, nobody elseis going to be made
aware of them.
Nobody else is going to beaware of the problem.
It's not like some suddenlyone day, everybody in corporate
America is suddenly going tobecome a lot more sensitive to
the issue or toissues facing minorities.
(20:40):
We're all on a journeyto be educated about, um,
different people inour workplace, in our
friends circle, in ourcommunities, and how we
should interact with them.
And we won't know unless we,as members of the
LGBTQ community, don't raiseour hands and say, hey, what?
(21:02):
You kind of said thatfelt like weird to me.
I know you probably didn't meanit that way, but I kind of
interpreted it that way, and itwas just kind of weird to me.
80% of the time,you're probably going to get
the response of, wow,I'm so sorry.
That was that wasinsensitive of me.
I didn't obviously that was notmy intent and so on
(21:24):
and so forth.
But we do have totake charge of our own destiny.
This community hasfor decades, unfortunately,
had to have, um, an activistfocus all the way back to,
um, Stonewall.
So let's just continue movingthat forward and educating the
people around us and, um,assuming positive intent.
(21:48):
Um, obviously, where thereisn't positive intent, that's a
separate issue that needs to bedealt with in a different way.
But unless we're raisingthe issue, nobody's going to
miraculously wake up one dayand become very sensitive to
how words and actions that areunintended could impact us.
I think that, you know, I thinkthat's it's such good advice,
(22:10):
and I think that over the yearsI have and you're right,
I think it's very scary.
It is taking astand to have a conversation.
But I think I feel like I'vebeen able to, in my career,
make the most progress withthose one on
one conversations, to yourpoint, which is such
great advice of not assumingthis ill intent and just going
(22:31):
in and saying, I'dlike to talk about this.
And often people aren't awareor didn't know or and I find
the same, you know, often withHR leaders, you know,
let's let's raise this issue.
Let's talk about it.
What could we do?
And I find to your point,as you said, 80%, 80% of the
time these things turn intosomething really positive.
(22:51):
So I think it's great advice.
Um, and, Brad, you know, if I.
Turn into a conflict, like,I don't think.
Yeah.
I don't think they need to turninto a conflict, I think.
Um, I think.
And maybe this is my generationshowing where we have had to,
(23:13):
uh, kind of fight for therights that we as an LGBT
community enjoy today.
Rights that are not certainlynot cast in stone.
And as we've seen with issueslike reproductive rights for
women could vanish overnight.
But we have fought hardfor for rights.
(23:35):
And so I guess probably mygeneration has more of
that activist mentality.
But I recall kind of being atPepsiCo when I was leading the
BRG and we were having a dinnerwith this group, and a very
young person in the team said,oh my God, I'm so upset.
Um, I'm like, something reallybad happened to me.
And I'm like, what?
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What happened?
And, um, it was something todo with, uh, he was talking
about his kids to a straightperson and that he didn't
know very well.
And that straight person didn'tknow him very well.
And the straight person assumedhe had a wife and said, oh,
(24:17):
what is yourwife do or something?
And he was like, so offendedby that, that my counsel to him
as well, what did you say?
And he said, well,I didn't say anything.
I was just like so offended.
And I never kind of really wantto talk to him again.
I'm like, well, you know what?
I don't know that that's theright course of action
you could have.
Uh, that was a momentto educate, and I.
(24:41):
I know that person, by theway, who said that to you?
And that person hasdemonstrated themselves to
be an ally.
They obviously didn't knowyou were gay.
And I'm sure if youhave said something.
So I think we have to just makesure that when things like
this happen, we don't spiralinto like this person's
(25:03):
terrible and sensitiveand so on.
I'm sure we all say things topeople that we don't know very
well who are not members ofwhatever subsection of the
community we belong to that maybecome insensitive or may be
interpreted andbe interpreted insensitively.
(25:26):
And so we just have totalk more, I think,
and assume positive intent.
I think that's great advice.
I, you know, and a few more, um.
Questions.
Brad one.
Given so much experience thatyou bring to the table and and
with so many differentorganizations and being such an
(25:46):
active part of the community,one thing that I ask everyone
who comes on the show isto share, um, some resources
that listeners mightfind helpful, um, whether it's
navigating their outlets ortheir workplace
challenges or whatever.
Do you have any resources thatyou might share with folks that
you think are helpful andvaluable as you've maybe
(26:08):
utilized along your journey?
Uh, no.
I as I said, um, earlier,I have been very lucky that,
um, through myprofessional career, I haven't
really bumped into thisas a major stumbling block.
Um, and I consider myselfparticularly in light of the
(26:31):
statistics that I gave youearlier around the BCG work.
I found myselfincredibly fortunate, um,
to have experienced andrecognize that isn't the
experience of the majority.
Um, at least ifyou look at the numbers.
Uh, so I haven't had to kind oftap into a lot of resources.
Um, I will tell you that, um,fellow members of our community
(26:55):
who you work with are alwaysgreat sounding boards for
advice or even just to vent at.
Um, and so I think that'scertainly so Employee Resource
Groups in companies wherethey exist, for sure.
You should, um, join them andbe part of those and you
(27:19):
will find, I think, alot of, uh, help and
inspiration there.
Uh, thereare other organizations
you mentioned earlier.
Until recently, I was theChairman of the Board of the
LGBTQ Center here in New York.
Um, we have a lot of programs,uh, that you can tap into and
(27:40):
resources that you can tap into.
Um, I would talk, um, candidly,uh, whenever you have an
opportunity with alliesin organizations, David,
I remember, uh, and this isn'tan example of, um, a direct
example of LGBTQ support inthe workplace, but it's a great
(28:04):
analog and a great example.
I once worked with, um,this incredibly impressive
woman who was my peerin a leadership team that was
predominantly male with a bossthat she came to me, um,
at some point and says itdrives me nuts being in these
meetings because he's eithermansplaining at me or he cuts
(28:27):
me off for talks over meand so on and so forth,
and it's super frustrating.
And so I just made it a pointof whenever we were in a room,
having been sensitized tothat behavior, I would just
make a point of jumping inand going, hey, um, let's just
take a moment and let herfinish her sentence, or let's
(28:48):
just take a moment andreflect on that.
And wait, wasn't thatwhat she just said?
And there are ways that you canact as an ally to, um, kind of
underrepresented groups thatare supportive to them.
And I think that for us,while I've certainly advocated
(29:09):
that we need to do our partin saying, vocalizing to
colleagues when these quoteunquote microaggressions
happen that, hey, this there'sprobably a better way that you
could have said that or thatmade me feel kind of weird.
Um, equally, you can findallies in, uh, friends and
allies in the workplace whowill also help you navigate
(29:33):
awkward situations and helpeducate the broader, um,
colleagues base around someof these issues.
So I think if if you're inthat situation, um, do what you
can to help yourself where thatisn't possible, then you need
to have a conversation with,um, kind of people who can.
(29:58):
Might make a more direct impact.
Like HR.
Yeah, I love it, I love it.
That's great.
So one one final question, Brad.
I you know, folks that arelistening often are listening
to hear these storiesand to understand maybe tips
and understand experiences.
But, you know, along the way,I have to imagine, um,
(30:20):
that folks haveinspired inspired you.
So my last question question isimagine you were hosting a
Klout for Good dinner party,and you are going to invite 2
or 3 queer icons to this dinnerparty that have inspired you.
Who are some folks from withinour community, um, that have
(30:42):
that have made an impacton you along the way?
Wow, who.
Would I invite to a dinnerparty that's inspired me?
Um, certainly.
Um, Secretary Buttigieg, I thinkhe is an absolute
inspiration to, um,our community.
Um, he is he has served inuniform for our country.
(31:07):
He has served inlocal politics, um, and now as
secretary of transportation.
Um, he represents one of themost senior officials, uh,
that is gayin the administration.
And I think that whatis remarkable, not remarkable,
(31:28):
what makes him so incrediblyinspirational to me is that he
is so incredibly smart and doeshis job so incredibly well.
He doesn't hide the hisidentity as a gay male, but nor
does he put it front and centerin every single conversation
(31:51):
that he has.
He lives very authentically.
And um, I think he,for those reasons,
is an inspiration.
Um, the other two, uh,people are actually women,
which as I was thinkingabout this, I'm like, well,
if if we as, uh, white,cisgendered gay men think we
(32:16):
have an issue, imagine if youhad the double whammy of being
a part of another groupin the community that, uh,
faces diversity and inclusion,um, issues.
And that's women.
So the other two people wouldbe Beth Ford, who is the CEO
of Land O'Lakes.
And, um, again, Beth is just anincredible business person.
(32:41):
Um, so incredibly, um,so incredibly articulate.
Um, but again, uh, she alsohappens to be gay, uh, a mother.
Um, and so I just and again,she is not a prominent person
(33:02):
because she happens to be a gaywoman leading a large company.
She's just an incredible CEOwho happens to be gay.
And I think there'sa distinction there.
And the other one, um, that Iwish I had have spent more time
with before she passed away wasEdie Windsor, who did so much
(33:26):
for our community, was soincredibly brave in, um,
advocating for our communityall the way up to
the Supreme Court.
And I think she would bring,um, and I had the honor of
meeting her several timesbefore she passed.
Uh, and she brings a verydifferent lens to this,
(33:50):
because she operated in a worldthat was nowhere near as
accepting as it is today,with a advocating for community
that had none of the rightsthat we enjoy today.
And, uh, I think she would bean impressive person to add
to the mix.
(34:11):
A great mix of folks.
I want an invite, I love it.
Those are those arethose are great.
You're welcome.
Anytime.
Uh, well, Brad, listen,thank you so much for coming to
to the to the show today.
I really appreciate, um, your,you sharing of these
experiences and your advicealong the way.
And, uh, and for allthe work you do for the
(34:32):
community every day.
So thank you.
Thank you so much for joining.
Thanks, David.
It was a pleasure to be here.
Have a great rest of your week.
Yeah.
Thank you.
And and to my listeners,thanks so much for
joining us today.
Tune in every other week onWednesdays for a new episode of
Clout for good.
Follow us on social.
Visit Clout for Good dotCom tosubscribe to our newsletter,
(34:53):
and I hope this episode givesyou the motivation to use your
own Clout for Good to make adifference in your workplace.
Thanks for joining.
The vast majority of straightpeople that I've worked with,
overwhelming majority ofstraight people I've worked
with are very accepting andwelcoming and not at all
kind of bigoted.
Um, but we all say stupidthings that may be insensitive
to people, and that certainlyhappened to me.
And it just causes you to pauseand just feel uncomfortable
(00:22):
for a moment.
But you know what?
We also have to just measureintent with action.
Hello everyone, and welcome.
Clout for Good is a bi weeklypodcast that showcases personal
and powerful conversations withprominent LGBTQ+ executives who
are out in the workplace.
The conversations are meant tocreate a supportive community
(00:44):
to inspire LGBTQ+ people,their employers, and allies to
build equity and inclusionin the workplace.
Today, I'm honored towelcome Brad Jakeman.
Brad is currently senioradvisor at the Boston
Consulting Group, oneof the world's leading
management consultancies,and Brad is a co-founder and
managing partner ofRethink Food,
which identifies, invests inand helps scale businesses that
(01:08):
are digitally disrupting thelegacy food system to make it
more equitable and sustainable.
Prior to co-foundingRethink Food, Brad spent almost
ten years aspresident of PepsiCo's Global
Beverage Group, where he ledglobal corporate strategy,
brand building, design,advertising,
marketing innovationand branded content.
(01:28):
Brad has also held seniormarketing roles at
Ogilvy City, Macy's,and Activision Blizzard.
He also gives histime to other organizations,
including the Humane Society,the New York LGBT Center, and a
variety of for profitand nonprofit organizations.
Brad, welcome to the show.
Hey, David, it's greatto be here.
(01:50):
Thank you for having me.
Yeah.
Of course.
Great to have you here.
Well, let's let's jump in.
The first thing, um, that thatI talk about with guests of
Clout for good is tellme a little bit about how
you identify, share a littlebit with us, if you can,
about um, maybe your coming out.
Or as we know, it's often notjust one coming out story or
(02:11):
maybe some of your experiencescoming out, um, throughout your
career and sort of what thosewere like for you.
Um, yeah.
So I identify I'm a cisgender,um, gay man, and I, uh, look,
I would love to say, uh, or I'dlove to have some sort of
(02:31):
interesting story about mycoming out in
a professional context.
Um, but unfortunately,there wasn't one in terms of.
I think itsomewhat happened organically.
Um, I never had a, uh, kind ofa mic drop moment where I stood
before people and announcedthat I was gay.
(02:53):
And that's largely because, um,I think while how I identify as
obviously an important part ofwho I am, it is nowhere near
my defining characteristic.
And so in aprofessional context, it didn't
feel to me, um, and toone event, which I'm happy to
(03:13):
talk about later, that, uh,that I really needed to make
any sort ofproclamation or announcement.
I didn't I was fortunate enoughto work in great
companies with, uh,great bosses and
amazing colleagues, and I neverfelt there would be a fear for
(03:34):
me expressing who I wasso I didn't have to,
unlike many people, have tohide my identity.
But nor did I have, um,any compelling reason to really
announce it to the world.
Um.
Well, that's it's great.
I know a lot of people,you know, don't feel that way.
(03:55):
A lot of people have had atough time in the workplace.
And one thing I'minterested in, you know,
with your background and,and as I mentioned, you know,
coming out isan ongoing experience.
And maybe to your point,isn't a mic drop moment.
But there's often times where,you know, maybe we're making
decisions of what to share andwhat not to share.
(04:16):
I know that McKinsey has areport out that says,
you know, LGBTQ.
Plus, people are often talkingabout something related to
their authentic self sort ofonce a week in the workplace.
So it's something ongoing,but with your background,
which I think is, you know,one is so impressive, but it's
amazing with your, your boardexperience for for profit and
(04:38):
nonprofit and theagency experiences, you've had
the corporate with some of thethe biggest brands in
the world, how has navigatingthat as an out executive been?
Have there been any differencesor was in fact across all
of those, you know,the experience similar?
How how has navigating those orwhat challenges or, you know,
(05:01):
opportunities have come up thatvary across all of those
experiences?
Look, I think thechallenge that, uh,
we unfortunately, as a businesscommunity face today with, uh,
the majority of leadershipteams in large companies and
even small and mediumsized companies, boards,
(05:23):
certainly of companies, is adiversity issue at large.
So it's not uniqueto the LGBTQ community,
although representation,for instance, on boards of
directors and uh, CEO the CEOsuite for sure is, uh,
(05:44):
there's big gaps when itcomes to LGBTQ.
But I think the broader issueis one of diversity.
And one of the thingsthroughout my career that has
always made me feeluncomfortable is when I'm in
groups that are homogenous inthe workplace, I find them to
be groups that don't have agreat proclivity to inspire new
(06:08):
and breakthrough thinking,which is what most, uh,
companies need right nowbecause everybody has the same
shared experience, the sameeducational background,
often are of the samegender over, often are of the
same sexual orientation.
And I think that is an issuefor the LGBTQ community as much
(06:30):
as it is forany underrepresented,
underrepresented groups.
Um, black Americans, um, women.
Still, the fact that we call50% of our population a
minority is, uh,a terrifying idea.
Uh, but I think the issue isdiversity at large, which,
(06:51):
of course,impacts the LGBTQ community.
It's such a good point.
And, Brad, what do you think?
You know, with having seniorsenior roles and and running an
organization?
And what do you think are somethings that, you know, a lot of
listeners have Clout for Good?
Are are folks who identify aspart of the queer community,
(07:12):
or maybe they're allies, but alot of folks are looking for
ways that their company canmake a difference.
What are what are some thingsthat you think companies can do
to help with this, to helpcreate a more equitable and
inclusive and diverse,as you said, workplace.
Look, I think representation isan important part.
(07:33):
Um, and you mentioneda McKinsey study.
Um, BCG actually did asignificant piece of work
amongst 2000 LGBTQ employees.
Um, and actually 2000 straightemployees across the U.S.
and the, uh, the numbers werequite surprising because those
(07:56):
of us who live in certain partsof the United States and work
in certain companies tend totake a lot of the acceptance
of LGBT, theLGBTQ community, for granted.
But this study showed that 40%of LGBT employees are still
closeted at work, and 26% arewish they they could be out.
(08:22):
Um, 36% of those employees havelied or covered up part of
their identities inthe past year.
Um, and of those who are out,54% of them remain closeted to
their clientsand their customers.
So we have a long way to go.
(08:42):
And what I mentioned, uh,in answer to your
first question, that I didn'treally feel the need to
proclaim my identity until, um,recently in the workforce,
because it wasn't mydefining characteristic, but I
learned that it was importantfor me to do it
for other people.
(09:03):
And what I mean by that is, uh,when I was at PepsiCo, I was
the executive sponsor of, um,the LGBTQ ERG, and I just, uh,
was so shocked, actually.
And it must it was probably mynaivete and my privilege in
(09:25):
having grown up inorganizations that were, uh,
very accepting ofour community, as was PepsiCo.
But the fact that somebody whowas the president of Global
Beverages at PepsiCo was alsogay was such an
inspiration to, uh,younger people in the
(09:46):
organization that made it, uh,I felt more compelling for
me to, I guess,be more articulate, um,
more present at LGBTQ events,uh, more out in the workforce
beyond which I ever feltcompelled to do.
(10:09):
And Brad, I it's I soappreciate you sharing that.
I've had somany similar experiences.
And quite frankly, as wetalked, that's one of the
reasons that I, I started Cloutfor Good was I
really realized, you know,for me, you're like your
example at PepsiCo.
It's, you know, I was workingfor an organization where we
had a call center inOklahoma City, and I went there
(10:33):
for an all hands meeting,a training meeting, and,
you know, talked as who I was.
And to your point,wasn't necessarily talking
specifically about my gaynessor anything like that.
But I had several employeescome up to me afterwards
and say, you know, it's amazingthat our one of our leaders is
out and talks aboutand is confident it really.
(10:54):
And one employee said,this really gives me hope that
I can be myself at work.
And I'm I also, you know,years into being out in
the workplace, I sort ofthought about National Coming
Out Day and Ithought, well, I'm not sure
that's important anymore.
And then I've really come torealize as you have,
how important it is.
And in fact, I'm going to belaunching Cloud for Good on
(11:15):
National Coming Out Day because,you know, I see also having
experience with ERGs.
You know, these organizations,they want community.
They want connection.
Your stat about board members.
You know they're notnecessarily seeing it.
So you know sharing thesestories is important.
I know your story will be, um,inspiring and important to
folks and I your BCG study,that these stats around still
(11:40):
being closeted ornot authentically, you know,
being able to come out at work.
What do you think are.
You know, what are some of thereasons you think that that
still exists today?
Why do you think people,you know, you see sort of the
changes in media andrepresentation out there of
queer people changingdramatically over the years?
(12:00):
Why do you think those numbersin my mind, are still so high
in the workplace?
Well, I think that, um, so whenwe talk about representation,
the term we often hear,the corporate term we often
hear is, um,diversity and inclusion.
And I think, um, we havefocused more on the first half
(12:24):
than we have on the second halfin that I think we have
made some progress.
I think we need tomake a lot more progress in
creating diverse, um,employee bases,
diverse leadership teamsand diverse boards.
We've certainly when I look at,uh, where we were ten
(12:45):
years ago, we have certainlyprogressed on diversity,
nowhere near where weneed to be.
But still we have moved.
Um, we've moved forward.
It's really theinclusion piece, I think,
that we have not necessarily,um, put as much emphasis on.
(13:05):
I mean, that that's the oldsaying is diversity is being
invited to the prom.
Uh, inclusion is beingasked to dance.
And so I think we justneed to do a lot more work
around that.
And, look, I think also in theBCG study, um, it found that
75% of those who have beensurveyed experienced some
(13:30):
negative day to day kind ofinteractions that are relative
to their identity, that couldbe determined or were
classified askind of microaggressions.
These are littlethrowaway lines, uh,
insensitivity, assumptions beingmade, um,
that cause people not tofeel included, to feel like
(13:54):
they are other.
And I think that's going tocome with kind of raising
awareness of it.
The vast majority of, uh,and I felt some of those
microaggressions through mycareer as, as well.
But I even callingthem microaggressions, I'm kind
of hesitant to do because thatkind of says there's some
(14:16):
intent behind it.
I think a lot of it is the vastmajority of straight people
that I've worked with,overwhelming majority of
straight people I've workedwith are very accepting and
welcoming and not at allkind of bigoted.
Um, but we also stupid thingsthat may be insensitive to
(14:36):
people and that certainlyhappened to me.
And it just causes you to pauseand just feel uncomfortable
for a moment.
But you know what?
I also look, I'm a little bitold school in this too.
I think it's also upto us as a community.
I mean, inin any professional context,
(14:56):
you've got to have thick skinabout a lot of things.
And while I'm not obviouslysaying that these
microaggressions aregood things, but we also have
to just measure intent withaction as well.
And, um, perhaps we coulddo we could educate some of
(15:17):
our allies, um, a little more.
Not again, not that it's up tous to do all the heavy lifting
to get accepted into workplaces.
I think companies can doa lot better in terms of
sensitivity training, um,particularly around
the LGBTQ community.
But we also just can't.
(15:39):
Can't a little bit.
Kind of take this onboard too much.
Yeah.
Um.
And assume malicious intent.
Yeah.
And I think that's the,you know, everyone's on their
own journey, right?
We need to meet peoplewhere they are.
I think that's really,really valid.
And I think you're right.
It's, you know, more educationand more training and and I
like that, you know, not reallyassuming this malicious intent
(16:00):
right off the bat,I think is important.
And I think as folks,you know, one thing I'd
love to, to understand yourperspective on is, you know,
you have a younger queerprofessional who's, you know,
new to the workforce.
And often they're thinking,I want to show that,
that I'm valuable, I want toget that next promotion.
Or you have, um,potentially a more closeted,
(16:22):
maybe tenured queer employee.
But, you know, what advice doyou have to, you know,
maybe either of those typesof employees, how might they
start to showup more authentically?
What what advice do you havefor folks that are thinking
about I'd like to tellmore about myself.
I'd like to, you know,I actually brought it's funny
(16:44):
because after some ofthese conversations, I'll have
out in, you know, the industryor at marketing forums, etc.
, some employees will still andqueer identified employees will
come up to me and say, so wow,on Monday with your in your
C-suite meeting, you reallytalk about what you and your
partner did over the weekend.
(17:04):
And I it's that question stillcomes to me and I get taken a
little bit aback by it.
And I think, you know, wow,that was maybe a question I had
when I came outclose to 25 years ago.
And we still, you know,there's still that question of
how do I show up and what howwhat risk do I take and what
does that look like?
So what advice do you have forfolks that are thinking about
(17:26):
sharing more about themselvesin the workplace?
Oh, look, I think, um,you do what makes you happy.
I mean, seriously, I as Isaid earlier, I was fortunate
in that I didn't ever feel thatthere were major barriers to me
(17:48):
kind of showing upauthentically or
talking about, um.
Uh, the fact that I was gay.
Um, but that's because I didn't.
As I said earlier, I didn'tfeel any compelling desire
to do so.
I mean, I, um, but I recognizethat some people might.
(18:09):
And I think that, um, you theif if you're really compelled,
uh, to do that and you feelthat it's such an important
part of who you are, and I'm abig advocate of bringing your
whole self to work.
Um, if if, if you really needto do that, I think you have to.
(18:33):
And if you have some negativeblowback on that, depending on
who it's from.
I mean, if it's from an if it'sfrom co-workers and so on,
have a conversation with them.
Um, if it's fromyour boss, that's a,
that's a different issue.
Um, you may have totake that up.
(18:53):
Um, with HR, all ofthese things, by the way,
scary things to do.
And so I completely represent acompletely understand that my
experience is different thanmany people's experience.
And that kind of raising yourhand and going to H.R., um,
to talk about this is somethingthat's very daunting,
(19:15):
particularly if you are youngerin your career.
But look, at the end ofthe day, if you're if you don't
do that, then unfortunately,I think, um, that isn't the
company for you.
Uh, and that's areally sad reality.
But I don't know whatelse to say.
(19:36):
I'm really sensitive, David,to making sure that we, uh,
don't present ourselvesas victims, that everybody else
has to help us, um,do what we want to do.
I think there absolutelyhas to be.
(19:56):
Infrastructure, culture,policy to help us, but we also
have to movethings forward ourselves.
And if we don'thave the conversations that are
productive and come from a verygood place, um, with certainly
with colleagues, um, I yourboss is is a separate issue and
(20:19):
a more daunting one, but unlesswe kind of raise these
issues ourselves, nobody elseis going to be made
aware of them.
Nobody else is going to beaware of the problem.
It's not like some suddenlyone day, everybody in corporate
America is suddenly going tobecome a lot more sensitive to
the issue or toissues facing minorities.
(20:40):
We're all on a journeyto be educated about, um,
different people inour workplace, in our
friends circle, in ourcommunities, and how we
should interact with them.
And we won't know unless we,as members of the
LGBTQ community, don't raiseour hands and say, hey, what?
(21:02):
You kind of said thatfelt like weird to me.
I know you probably didn't meanit that way, but I kind of
interpreted it that way, and itwas just kind of weird to me.
80% of the time,you're probably going to get
the response of, wow,I'm so sorry.
That was that wasinsensitive of me.
I didn't obviously that was notmy intent and so on
(21:24):
and so forth.
But we do have totake charge of our own destiny.
This community hasfor decades, unfortunately,
had to have, um, an activistfocus all the way back to,
um, Stonewall.
So let's just continue movingthat forward and educating the
people around us and, um,assuming positive intent.
(21:48):
Um, obviously, where thereisn't positive intent, that's a
separate issue that needs to bedealt with in a different way.
But unless we're raisingthe issue, nobody's going to
miraculously wake up one dayand become very sensitive to
how words and actions that areunintended could impact us.
I think that, you know, I thinkthat's it's such good advice,
(22:10):
and I think that over the yearsI have and you're right,
I think it's very scary.
It is taking astand to have a conversation.
But I think I feel like I'vebeen able to, in my career,
make the most progress withthose one on
one conversations, to yourpoint, which is such
great advice of not assumingthis ill intent and just going
(22:31):
in and saying, I'dlike to talk about this.
And often people aren't awareor didn't know or and I find
the same, you know, often withHR leaders, you know,
let's let's raise this issue.
Let's talk about it.
What could we do?
And I find to your point,as you said, 80%, 80% of the
time these things turn intosomething really positive.
(22:51):
So I think it's great advice.
Um, and, Brad, you know, if I.
Turn into a conflict, like,I don't think.
Yeah.
I don't think they need to turninto a conflict, I think.
Um, I think.
And maybe this is my generationshowing where we have had to,
(23:13):
uh, kind of fight for therights that we as an LGBT
community enjoy today.
Rights that are not certainlynot cast in stone.
And as we've seen with issueslike reproductive rights for
women could vanish overnight.
But we have fought hardfor for rights.
(23:35):
And so I guess probably mygeneration has more of
that activist mentality.
But I recall kind of being atPepsiCo when I was leading the
BRG and we were having a dinnerwith this group, and a very
young person in the team said,oh my God, I'm so upset.
Um, I'm like, something reallybad happened to me.
And I'm like, what?
(23:56):
What happened?
And, um, it was something todo with, uh, he was talking
about his kids to a straightperson and that he didn't
know very well.
And that straight person didn'tknow him very well.
And the straight person assumedhe had a wife and said, oh,
(24:17):
what is yourwife do or something?
And he was like, so offendedby that, that my counsel to him
as well, what did you say?
And he said, well,I didn't say anything.
I was just like so offended.
And I never kind of really wantto talk to him again.
I'm like, well, you know what?
I don't know that that's theright course of action
you could have.
Uh, that was a momentto educate, and I.
(24:41):
I know that person, by theway, who said that to you?
And that person hasdemonstrated themselves to
be an ally.
They obviously didn't knowyou were gay.
And I'm sure if youhave said something.
So I think we have to just makesure that when things like
this happen, we don't spiralinto like this person's
(25:03):
terrible and sensitiveand so on.
I'm sure we all say things topeople that we don't know very
well who are not members ofwhatever subsection of the
community we belong to that maybecome insensitive or may be
interpreted andbe interpreted insensitively.
(25:26):
And so we just have totalk more, I think,
and assume positive intent.
I think that's great advice.
I, you know, and a few more, um.
Questions.
Brad one.
Given so much experience thatyou bring to the table and and
with so many differentorganizations and being such an
(25:46):
active part of the community,one thing that I ask everyone
who comes on the show isto share, um, some resources
that listeners mightfind helpful, um, whether it's
navigating their outlets ortheir workplace
challenges or whatever.
Do you have any resources thatyou might share with folks that
you think are helpful andvaluable as you've maybe
(26:08):
utilized along your journey?
Uh, no.
I as I said, um, earlier,I have been very lucky that,
um, through myprofessional career, I haven't
really bumped into thisas a major stumbling block.
Um, and I consider myselfparticularly in light of the
(26:31):
statistics that I gave youearlier around the BCG work.
I found myselfincredibly fortunate, um,
to have experienced andrecognize that isn't the
experience of the majority.
Um, at least ifyou look at the numbers.
Uh, so I haven't had to kind oftap into a lot of resources.
Um, I will tell you that, um,fellow members of our community
(26:55):
who you work with are alwaysgreat sounding boards for
advice or even just to vent at.
Um, and so I think that'scertainly so Employee Resource
Groups in companies wherethey exist, for sure.
You should, um, join them andbe part of those and you
(27:19):
will find, I think, alot of, uh, help and
inspiration there.
Uh, thereare other organizations
you mentioned earlier.
Until recently, I was theChairman of the Board of the
LGBTQ Center here in New York.
Um, we have a lot of programs,uh, that you can tap into and
(27:40):
resources that you can tap into.
Um, I would talk, um, candidly,uh, whenever you have an
opportunity with alliesin organizations, David,
I remember, uh, and this isn'tan example of, um, a direct
example of LGBTQ support inthe workplace, but it's a great
(28:04):
analog and a great example.
I once worked with, um,this incredibly impressive
woman who was my peerin a leadership team that was
predominantly male with a bossthat she came to me, um,
at some point and says itdrives me nuts being in these
meetings because he's eithermansplaining at me or he cuts
(28:27):
me off for talks over meand so on and so forth,
and it's super frustrating.
And so I just made it a pointof whenever we were in a room,
having been sensitized tothat behavior, I would just
make a point of jumping inand going, hey, um, let's just
take a moment and let herfinish her sentence, or let's
(28:48):
just take a moment andreflect on that.
And wait, wasn't thatwhat she just said?
And there are ways that you canact as an ally to, um, kind of
underrepresented groups thatare supportive to them.
And I think that for us,while I've certainly advocated
(29:09):
that we need to do our partin saying, vocalizing to
colleagues when these quoteunquote microaggressions
happen that, hey, this there'sprobably a better way that you
could have said that or thatmade me feel kind of weird.
Um, equally, you can findallies in, uh, friends and
allies in the workplace whowill also help you navigate
(29:33):
awkward situations and helpeducate the broader, um,
colleagues base around someof these issues.
So I think if if you're inthat situation, um, do what you
can to help yourself where thatisn't possible, then you need
to have a conversation with,um, kind of people who can.
(29:58):
Might make a more direct impact.
Like HR.
Yeah, I love it, I love it.
That's great.
So one one final question, Brad.
I you know, folks that arelistening often are listening
to hear these storiesand to understand maybe tips
and understand experiences.
But, you know, along the way,I have to imagine, um,
(30:20):
that folks haveinspired inspired you.
So my last question question isimagine you were hosting a
Klout for Good dinner party,and you are going to invite 2
or 3 queer icons to this dinnerparty that have inspired you.
Who are some folks from withinour community, um, that have
(30:42):
that have made an impacton you along the way?
Wow, who.
Would I invite to a dinnerparty that's inspired me?
Um, certainly.
Um, Secretary Buttigieg, I thinkhe is an absolute
inspiration to, um,our community.
Um, he is he has served inuniform for our country.
(31:07):
He has served inlocal politics, um, and now as
secretary of transportation.
Um, he represents one of themost senior officials, uh,
that is gayin the administration.
And I think that whatis remarkable, not remarkable,
(31:28):
what makes him so incrediblyinspirational to me is that he
is so incredibly smart and doeshis job so incredibly well.
He doesn't hide the hisidentity as a gay male, but nor
does he put it front and centerin every single conversation
(31:51):
that he has.
He lives very authentically.
And um, I think he,for those reasons,
is an inspiration.
Um, the other two, uh,people are actually women,
which as I was thinkingabout this, I'm like, well,
if if we as, uh, white,cisgendered gay men think we
(32:16):
have an issue, imagine if youhad the double whammy of being
a part of another groupin the community that, uh,
faces diversity and inclusion,um, issues.
And that's women.
So the other two people wouldbe Beth Ford, who is the CEO
of Land O'Lakes.
And, um, again, Beth is just anincredible business person.
(32:41):
Um, so incredibly, um,so incredibly articulate.
Um, but again, uh, she alsohappens to be gay, uh, a mother.
Um, and so I just and again,she is not a prominent person
(33:02):
because she happens to be a gaywoman leading a large company.
She's just an incredible CEOwho happens to be gay.
And I think there'sa distinction there.
And the other one, um, that Iwish I had have spent more time
with before she passed away wasEdie Windsor, who did so much
(33:26):
for our community, was soincredibly brave in, um,
advocating for our communityall the way up to
the Supreme Court.
And I think she would bring,um, and I had the honor of
meeting her several timesbefore she passed.
Uh, and she brings a verydifferent lens to this,
(33:50):
because she operated in a worldthat was nowhere near as
accepting as it is today,with a advocating for community
that had none of the rightsthat we enjoy today.
And, uh, I think she would bean impressive person to add
to the mix.
(34:11):
A great mix of folks.
I want an invite, I love it.
Those are those arethose are great.
You're welcome.
Anytime.
Uh, well, Brad, listen,thank you so much for coming to
to the to the show today.
I really appreciate, um, your,you sharing of these
experiences and your advicealong the way.
And, uh, and for allthe work you do for the
(34:32):
community every day.
So thank you.
Thank you so much for joining.
Thanks, David.
It was a pleasure to be here.
Have a great rest of your week.
Yeah.
Thank you.
And and to my listeners,thanks so much for
joining us today.
Tune in every other week onWednesdays for a new episode of
Clout for good.
Follow us on social.
Visit Clout for Good dotCom tosubscribe to our newsletter,
(34:53):
and I hope this episode givesyou the motivation to use your
own Clout for Good to make adifference in your workplace.
Thanks for joining.
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