Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:03):
Hello everyone and welcome to Clout forGood.
It's a bi -weekly podcast that showcasespersonal and powerful conversations with
prominent LGBTQ plus executives who areout in the workplace.
The conversations are meant to create asupportive community and inspire LGBTQ
plus people, their employers and allies tobuild equity and inclusion in the
(00:24):
workplace.
Today, I'd like to welcome Rob Smith,who's the chief executive officer and
founder of Fluid, which includes the FluidProject,
Get Fluid and the Fluid Foundation.
Rob's created a brand combining hisprofession, which is retail, along with
his passion for a commitment for socialjustice.
(00:45):
Rob began a long career in retail spanningover 30 years, orchestrating multi
-billion dollar businesses throughmerchandising, e -commerce, marketing,
product development, and supply chainmanagement with brands like Macy's,
Victoria's Secret, Levi's, and Nike.
Rob leads the CSR committee as a member ofthe board of directors for Steve Madden
(01:07):
and is an executive in residence withWonderkind.
Rob lives in New York city with hishusband and his dog, Jackson.
Rob, thanks so much for your time todayand welcome to the show.
Thank you David for having me, Iappreciate it.
it's great to have you here.
So I'm excited today to talk.
I think that your experience being on sortof more traditional corporate side of the
(01:31):
business within the retail space, as Imentioned, those companies that you've,
you've worked for, and then also startinga business that's directly in the D E and
I LGBTQ plus space, really driving forauthenticity, which is what.
Cloud for Good is attempting to do aswell.
So I'm anxious to hear from you.
(01:52):
So the first question I have, I askeveryone the same question is, let's just
start talking about one.
Let us know how you identify and talkabout your professional coming out.
And I know we often have more than onecoming out experience.
We may have come out a lot of times.
So any of those examples or experiences,but tell us a little bit about.
(02:15):
coming out in the workplace for you andwhat that meant for you.
or I'll unpack what I, if I can rememberall your, the things you said.
First of all, how I identify, I use he,they pronouns.
I identify as a cisgendered, whitish,gayish man.
I say ish because there's a spectrum, youknow, for lots of us.
(02:37):
And yeah, I use he, they, I use, I most, Ihe, him, we go by he, him, but also they,
them.
I am an advocate for if you don't knowsomeone's pronouns, just use they, them.
It's very natural.
Um, whereas David, I don't know, I haven'tseen them for awhile.
Um, and, but like, yeah.
And also, um, I'm part indigenous and inthe journey that I took in creating fluid,
(03:00):
I found out about two spirit indigenouspeoples, which is the third gender.
And they were the most revered in theircommunities and, and usually are almost
often became shamans because they were,they had this balance of both masculine
and feminine energy.
And I think about where I am today in mylife through process of growing up is
(03:24):
embracing my feminine side and mymasculine side and living both truthfully
and creating my authentic self in thatprocess.
So that's how I identify.
Thanks.
And then the next question is my comingout story.
Yeah, that was a journey.
I, of course, knew I was queer from a veryyoung age.
(03:48):
I...
worked really hard to suppress anythingthat was perceived as queer.
So it was my younger self who was artisticand creative, loved theater and dolls and
hang with my sister and my brothers andwe're very much into sports and then
wasn't my gig.
And then going from junior high into highschool, I reinvented myself to someone
(04:11):
that I thought society and my family, myfaith and educators would see as more
accepting.
So I,played sports, I presented more masculine,
dressed more masculine.
And the world is great.
I had so many opportunities and I tookthat person into the professional space.
And then I realized like around the age of23 or 22, I wasn't really my authentic
(04:34):
self.
And I came out to my colleagues and myfamily and I was received so well.
I was received with so much love.
But one of the things I like to remindmyself and other people that when I came
out and1989 was a different time when you came
out, it was usually followed with, and bythe way, I'm HIV positive.
(04:55):
And so coming out to your family, yourcolleagues was that fear of not just the
world was going to be harder for you andyour career was going to be more
challenging, but you also might be facinga death sentence at the same time.
So there was a lot bundled in the comingout process at that time.
But I was received with love andacceptance from my family, from my
(05:18):
colleagues.
They laughed, they said, walk out of thecloset, I came screaming out of the
closet, I changed the way I dressed, Iwas, it was Miami Beach, I was working at
Berdines at the time, and I was receivedwith so much love and acceptance.
And then I like really shifted from, evenmy presentation, I refused to wear a suit
(05:38):
anymore, I would only wear a vest, I hadmore makeup, I pierced my ears.
I love it.
just came out with guns ablaze andreceived with so much.
And I remember even being interviewed byMay Company.
They would try to take me because I wasvery successful.
(05:58):
And I would always walk in with a redblazer and a Versace tie and just like
this outrageous guy in the Harvard club.
And I just felt like, is this the guy youreally want?
Because this is who you're getting.
And it's...
Yeah.
So I just coming out as my authentic selfand I figured I didn't want to work
anywhere where I couldn't be myself.
And that was, and I kind of wanted toalmost put it in people's faces.
(06:21):
Like this is who you're getting.
So I wouldn't waste my time or their timegoing someplace that I wouldn't be
embraced.
And I do think that when you're yourauthentic self at work, you're much more
productive.
You're more successful.
You're not thinking about what secretsyou're hiding or not telling.
And you're just able to show up 120%.
I love and Rob, you know, sometimes Ithink there are some stereotypes about
(06:44):
industries, you know, retail travel.
It's, you know, those are very, you know,LGBTQ friendly spaces.
Did you, do you think that's part of asyou were in retail at the time when you
were coming out?
Do you think the industry had anything todo with it or do you, what are your
thoughts on that?
Well, I mean, people think about fashionand retail as being super queer accepting.
(07:04):
The only role model I had was the head ofthe, not the fashion office, but the
visual department.
So the visual area was very queerfriendly.
The merchant team was, you know, a lot ofwhite straight Jewish guys.
And that was it with like a few women andwomen were really working through the
organization, especially at Berdine's.
(07:26):
But I was received across the board withlove and acceptance.
I think partially because I was so damngood at my job that they kind of had to
like address it.
But yeah, I mean, I still am close to theleaders at Bredine's at the time.
And just the love and acceptance, I can'teven tell you how much it meant to be able
(07:46):
to be that person.
And a lot of people don't have that.
I do think the retail industry probablycompared to like finance or, you know,
consumer goods or something like that is alittle different.
But I...
Yeah.
I mean, it was for in large part, I waspaving the way at that time and in the
late eighties to be openly gay.
(08:06):
and I think you've touched on somethingthat that prior guests on Club for Good
have mentioned, and that is everyone'sadvice is you got to do your job.
Number one, first and foremost, before youbefore you figure out who you're going to
show up as and how and what you're goingto fight for and advocate for.
Number one, do your job.
Check that box.
Make sure that you're delivering.
(08:26):
Make sure you understand what that lookslike.
So I think that definitely resonates.
And.
I myself came out in 1995.
I know we're both from Michigan, sort ofMidwest backgrounds and did the same thing
all through college.
It was, this was this persona I'm going topursue.
It's this sort of straight persona andthen, then figured it out myself.
(08:48):
And I think you touched on something thatI've often thought about as well, which is
back then the very first thing often outof the mouth of someone you just told you
were gay was.
Are you okay?
Are you going to be okay?
You know, are you sick?
What's going to happen?
And I think that definitely has changed,but it was real.
It was a very sort of scary thing to sortof navigate all of it, you know, with your
(09:13):
family and with your friends.
I also had a very accepting experience,you know, as well.
But what do you think, you know, I knowI'd like to hear a little more about, I
think it's a great opportunity for folksthat listen to Cloud for Good to hear a
little bit about Fluid.
Tell us about what that is.
well, before I do that, can I just say,and then that will lead into fluid.
(09:36):
I think I have drawn a strong correlationbetween coming out as a gay man in the
late 80s, early 90s as coming out as transtoday, that there is a stigma, a fear, a
misunderstanding, that there's a high rateof suicide, you know, and part of the
(09:58):
reason my fight,is so deep and grounded in, I guess,
purpose is because I understand and havesome empathy and understanding for what
the trans community is going through todaybecause of what we went through at the
time we went through it.
And it's very similar.
And I'm not sure many gay men or women seethat same similarity, but I see you now to
(10:22):
your head that you see it as well.
That they're, yeah.
sense.
Absolutely.
And interesting enough, statistically,looking at I looked at Gallup and as
morally acceptable in the year 2000, theAmericans saw gay and lesbian people,
Americans 40 % is morally acceptable.
(10:42):
And today it's around 90%.
But the trans community is at 40 % todaymorally acceptable.
And I think about the work and that has ageneration to come to achieve.
Great.
we are, if we continue with progress, thatthat's the fight that we're fighting right
now is that, and also interesting enough,for the first time ever, there was a
(11:05):
decline in gay men and gay women beingmorally acceptable.
So there is something to be concernedabout that there is, it's not all, you
know, rosy good that there is, if we'renot diligent, that this could turn back.
like it has in the past, you know, inother ways with other communities.
(11:26):
Yeah.
know, sort of anti -LGBTQ legislation withthe political environment now, it's more
than ever feels a bit like, you know, thetimes we're talking about, whether it's
eighties or nineties of, you know, we needto rally, we need to come together.
We really need to be focused becausethere's a lot at risk as we see things of
overturning Roe versus Wade and otherwise,there's a lot happening.
(11:50):
body autonomy.
I mean, it goes back to sodomy, you know,pretty soon if it's, you know, a woman's
body, it comes down to who we can haverelationships with that there'll be a
extremist governing of our bodies by agroup of people.
It's just something to consider.
Yeah, diligent and not to get comfortabletoo comfortable.
(12:12):
That's right.
Well, and I'm, I, I'd be interested tohear, um, well, as I mentioned earlier,
fluid and you know, you were working forthese global retail brands, you're having
a successful career.
Tell us about the transition from retailto fluid or, and it may not have been
(12:33):
that, that, that sort of clean cut of atransition.
It may have been fluid.
Um, tell us a little bit about it.
It was super clean.
It was like, I can tell you everythingthat happened on the journey.
So I remember just thinking that I wasliving two lives that one during the day,
it was my professional life.
And after work, I was working withnonprofits, was deeply involved with
(12:57):
Hetrick Barton, which is the LGBTQ plusafterschool program in New York, the first
ever of its kind in the country or aroundthe world.
along with other nonprofits.
So I felt like I was doing two thingsseparately.
And along this journey, it was always, theseparation kind of bothered me.
And then I went to my first Burning Manfor folks who don't know Burning Man is
(13:21):
this like, some people think it's like,it's all about music and it is about art
and music.
But it's really about radical inclusion.
It's about radical acceptance.
And this also,in a week long event that, that, that 75
,000 people come into this space and theyreally quickly adapt to this social code.
(13:42):
And, and the social code is acceptance andlove and, and self -expression.
And one of the funny things was by daytwo, that a lot of straight guys were
running into our RV and saying, can Iborrow a pair of tights?
Can you paint my nails?
Can I wear some, some eye makeup?
Can I wear your tutu today?
And I was like, wow, like so they were soliberated and free.
(14:03):
And I was really struck by that freedom ofsexuality, expression, all of it, just
because it was a safe place.
And then, and then they had to go back tolike the real world.
And there was actually like therapy groupsand for folks who worked at wall street,
how they adapt back to this like space.
Um, and I didn't know what it meant, but Iknew I wanted to do something different
(14:27):
with my life.
And so I quit my job.
And there's a saying, don't quit your jobafter your first burning man.
I quit my job.
I gave five months notice and I put on abackpack and I decided that the answer was
somewhere in the world.
And I traveled for six months around theworld.
a lot of time in India, Nepal, Tibet.
(14:49):
And I was in Central America and SouthAmerica.
In South America, I did a plant -basedjourney work in the Amazon.
And I remember on April 14th, 2017, Iwrote down, consider opening a gender
-free non -binary shopping environment.
I wrote fluid in quotation marks.
And I opened the world's first gender-free store 10 months later.
It was just like that.
Yeah.
(15:10):
And tell us about it.
Tell us about fluid.
Tell us about what you guys do and whereyou're headed and some things maybe you've
learned.
Tell us a little bit about.
Sure.
So the mission of Fluid is we challengeboundaries with humanity.
So we just say, we say, because somethinghas been one way, doesn't mean there's not
a better way.
And we try to find a better way for morepeople to be their authentic selves in
(15:31):
this planet, in this society.
And so we created the Fluid Project, whichis a gender free fashion brand, which is
grounded in community activism andeducation.
And from that,Idea was the world's first gender -free
store the store closed two years later,but the commitment to education community
and activism continues in ways And sothere's the fluid project fashion so last
(15:56):
year fluid showed up in about 8 ,000retail stores with categories from sense
and apparel and accessories and lots ofdifferent categories just launched an
intimacy collection, which is really cooland Then we launched
Get Fluid, which is gender expansivetraining.
So in the store, one of the social codesis we're all students, we're all teachers.
(16:20):
And I was a student for two years.
And then I thought, how do I teachcorporations about what's happening with
younger people?
Mostly younger people, not exclusivelyyounger people.
And so with training, how we trainstrategic advising training about 40
companies a year we work with.
And then focusing on community.
(16:43):
Two years ago, I launched the FluidFoundation and that's really about working
with corporations to allocate money tograssroots organizations.
So right now the big three get much of themoney.
You know, think about Trevor Project, HRCand GLAD.
But the small organizations, which aredoing a lot of great work, are getting no
(17:05):
money because they don't know how to writegrants, they don't have access to people
who have money.
So...
We have raised a million dollars in twoyears and we gift money.
We don't grant money.
We gift it to organizations.
And I think we're making a real differenceby doing that and moving just, and we do
it on trust.
We just give money and say, we trust you.
And it's a beautiful thing to do.
(17:26):
And then we also help corporationsvolunteer with these organizations across
the country.
So a lot of good work done there.
Oh my gosh, that's amazing.
What do you think is, you know, one of thethings about Cloud for Good is your
outness as an individual can allow you tomake good.
You know, you can really make an influencewhen you're authentic.
What do you, sort of two questions.
(17:47):
The first one, what are you most proud ofin, with an impact from the Fluid Project?
What are you most proud of over theseyears of getting that up and running and
sort of evolving and expanding it?
Um, I'm most proud of the inclusive spacethat we've created, the voices that we're
(18:09):
amplifying, the, the, the de-stigmatization of what beauty is of what
self, of what, who you can be.
So we've created a space of fluid,regardless of your gender, your
orientation, your race, your body size,ethnicity, ability, uh, faith.
(18:30):
that there's a place for you to fluid.
That is a welcoming place for all people.
And we really try to create a community oflike -minded people who are emboldened to
go out to make change for good.
And we use our platform.
I use my platform to open up doors andthen to bring the team in to do the good
(18:53):
work that they do.
So my team calls me the Trojan horse.
They push me in because of how I look andwho I am.
love it.
I just feel like every day I wake up andI'm not kidding when I say this, that I'm
so grateful for the life I have, theevery, every decision I've made that's led
(19:14):
me up to this point, every experience thatI've had that has led me up to this point,
that every single day when I look at mycalendar, I go, wow, I get to do good
work.
I get to travel to corporations and speakto senior leadership.
I get to, you know,be a keynote speaker at conferences, I get
to advocate on this space of inclusion.
(19:36):
And that includes not exclusively queerpeople, but also the intersection of all
these other identities.
And ultimately, my goal is to break apartsocietal constructs and ideas around what
it is to be male or female, what it is tobe gay or straight, to just like...
break it apart and say a gay man is notthis way, that there's other ways to be
(19:58):
gay, just like there is different ways tobe a straight man.
And once we break that apart, we allow mento find more of their feminine attributes
and same thing with women too.
So just about breaking apart this outdatedcolonial idea of what it is to be male or
female and any other identity.
(20:21):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, and Rob, congratulations and thankyou to you and your team for sure.
And, you know, one of the things that wetalk about on Cloud for Good is a lot of
folks that listen are, you know, they'renew to the workforce.
They're, they're navigating sort offiguring out what this is going to look
like for them.
How do I show up?
(20:42):
And, you know, as you describe fluid andyou describe this,
free, inclusive, accepting world, youknow, a lot of employees out there, as you
well know, certainly, as you're on yourvisits to companies and doing training,
I'm sure you're running into this.
What advice do you have for folks asthey're navigating this?
(21:04):
Because environments in the corporateworld are not always accepting or aren't
always sort of ready.
So what advice do you have for folks thatare thinking about
coming out or being more authentic, ormaybe even it's an ally who's thinking,
I'd like to help out.
I'd like to create a safer space forpeople in our work environment.
(21:26):
It's a great question and there's no oneright answer.
There's lots of different answers.
I would say to first of all, first of all,be comfortable with yourself.
You starts there, your validation becausesomeone may not accept you, but you're
deep inside.
You know who you are and it's right whoyou are and to find people in the company
(21:46):
who you can trust and talk to because noteverybody you can trust and talk to, you
know,Your stat even shows almost half of queer
people hide their identities at work.
And you know, what happens when you peoplehide their identity and some of them I
think are just our understanding that whocan I trust and not trust?
You know, that there's a there's there'sthis like, but sometimes we're wrong.
(22:10):
Sometimes we're right.
But we know that whether or not any timeof any type of phobia is overt or not, it
could be very subtle.
Could be just that you don't get thatpromotion.
You don't get this opportunity.
but to find mentors to help guide you.
And I think that allies can really step intoo, and to be an ally to a young queer
person, and somebody who's gay, somebodywho's trans, somebody who's, especially
(22:35):
the intersection.
Once you get to the intersection of beingqueer and a person of color, there's lots
of challenges navigating that.
So I just say, lean in and help people outwho are young on their career and on their
journey.
And on your journey yourself, find peoplewho you can trust and help you navigate
the process.
And then once you're inside, maybe youjoin the employee resource group, and then
(22:58):
you start to work out what does educationlook like inside the company?
How do you educate people, you know,throughout the company?
I think that's one of the things we do ishelp employee resource groups bring in
full representation.
Cause sometimes employee resource groupsare just people who look like you and I.
There are white gay men, white gay womenwho are in their forties and fifties.
Right.
full representation?
And if you can't do it yourself in yourcompany, start to think about hiring and
(23:22):
then hire people from the outside to comein and to speak and educate.
And know that your voice matters.
Like you can go in and say, I'd like toknow to the CEO, like I looked at our
board of directors and there's no queerrepresentation on our board.
Like, why is that?
I mean, I think it's okay to ask thesequestions, you know, and to have that
confidence that, you know, you can makethe change.
(23:44):
Once you're in a position of influence,you can do it.
That's right.
Well, and I think those themes continue tobe reinforced, I think, through these
conversations of, you know, show up, doyour job.
And I think also sort of, as others havesaid, sort of seek your people, you know,
seek folks you can trust, seek folks, seeksmoke, you know, and create that.
And it is there.
(24:05):
And then I love your advice of, and go askfor it, go have a conversation.
There's absolutely no harm in that.
And it may be scary.
And certainly you need to, you know,ensure your
you're secure and you're okay.
There's no sort of danger, of course, butit's okay to have those conversations.
Go and have them.
have found that if you are fearless, youknow, and sometimes I think that the
(24:30):
person who's got, maybe it's a man who'sgot a wife and three kids going through
school may not be fearless because hecan't afford to like, you know, I think,
and sometimes as queer people, maybe wedon't have a traditional family or relate,
you know, sometimes we have the securityof two incomes, no kid that...
(24:51):
We can be fearless and your fearlessnesswill be appreciated by leadership.
They'll say, wow, listen to this personwho's speaking the truth and whether I
want to hear it or not, they're fearlessenough to come in.
And I think it's that gamble has workedfor me my entire life because I have had
really solid relationships with leadersbecause of my truth, because of one, I'm
(25:14):
really good at my job to your pointearlier, but also I'm saying what other
people won't say.
And maybe.
begins the process of them thinkingdifferently.
Well, and taking the time to say thosethings.
And I think, you know, my experience, Robis often more often than not, the
conversation you have is enlightening tothe other person.
(25:35):
So I think often we think there's a, youknow, a negative or cruel intention, if
you will.
And often it is lack of education, lack ofexposure, lack of knowledge.
And so having the courage to have thatconversation I have found results in.
a deeper, stronger relationship with thatindividual, an exchange of knowledge and
(25:57):
experiences that helps you move thingsforward.
I think there's just a real fear of whatcould happen.
And I think more often than not, it'spositive.
I think so you have to, you do have to bewilling to take that risk.
That's for sure.
And the risk in, you know, I have foundthat every time I'm speaking to someone in
power, someone in influence that they're ahuman too, that maybe they haven't thought
(26:20):
about something.
And, but you also speak to them as ahuman, you know, I, everyone I know,
whether they're my boss or somebody whoworks with me, I know their spouse's name
or their partner's name or their pet'sname.
I know their kids names.
I know about their lives.
So you're.
you develop a personal relationship withsomeone and then you can start to have
these conversations.
So it's not like, you know, out of the,out of like, but you, you treat them like
(26:42):
a human being and they'll respond with youas a human being as well.
That's right.
And I think these, the conversations withexecutives and folks in a position of
power kind of leads me to another questionaround, you know, you are working with
corporations, you've been a part of themas an employee and you know, through the
(27:04):
years, what advice would you now with allof this, this knowledge you have, what
advice would you give to corporations?
So for folks,that are listening to Club for Good now
that are part of their DENI program,they're in HR, they're executives.
What advice would you give companies?
Where do they start to, or what are maybesome of the key things they should focus
(27:26):
on to create more inclusive spaces, tocreate an environment for LGBTQ people to
thrive?
What advice would you give us if they'restarting this journey?
Yeah, I would say to start, create aformal process, an employee resource, ARG,
to create a formalized organization wherethere's a corporate sponsorship, there's
(27:49):
some structure.
You know, it's not just aboutrepresentation, but it's also about
inside, but it's also for the consumertoo.
How are you ensuring that the consumer ishaving a good experience if they identify
as queer?
And to work with other resource groups tofocus on the intersectionality of the
groups as well.
And so it's important to have a formalizedprocess where you can come with strategies
(28:12):
and ideas, have a sponsor and get in frontof leadership and make cases.
And then you're also becoming an advisoryboard.
But also I would say, understand yourshortcomings.
If you don't have anyone who's trans inyour team, how do you bring that voice?
Do you educate yourself or do you bring anoutside person in to speak about that?
(28:34):
And.
It's just really good for business.
And the other thing I would say to anyleader right now, who's hearing about a
backlash in DP &I about a fear of being,you know, somebody who's a, who was a
evolved, woken, you know, quotes companythat this is still the right thing to do
for business.
That companies who are inclusive, who willrecruit better talent, will retain better
(28:59):
talent and will offer a customerexperience that is.
It is business additive.
It's not just about checking off a do theright box.
It's about doing more business in ahealthy way.
Yeah.
Well, and it's, I think to your point,it's that checkbox has been checked.
Is DE &I good for business?
(29:20):
Yes.
Is allowing your employees, all of them toshow up who they are and to be able to
contribute authentically, does that helpand grow business?
Check.
I mean, there's so that that's proven.
And I think it's, but to your point,universities throwing out admission
criteria and all these things happening.
Um, put a challenge to it.
(29:40):
That's, that's for sure.
And it's funny.
Somebody said, why don't white straightguys have an employee resource group?
And somebody said, cause you have for thelast hundred years have had the really the
most exclusive employee resource group.
And so now it's time for other communitiesto step in.
But I'll tell you a great story, you know,as a, as a straight passing, a gay man,
(30:04):
and as somebody who was in a leadershipposition at Macy's when we formed employee
resource groups.
One of the things that I did when theywere asking for executive sponsors, I
chose women of color because there were nowomen of color.
Although I was the only queer person thatI could have obviously led the LGBTQ ERG,
(30:25):
but I chose women of color.
And in the process, I grew a lot and theyhad an advocate because the highest
turnover was men of black men and blackwomen were the highest turnover in the
company.
And after 18 months of sitting throughthese meetings, they said, Rob, they
closed the door and they said, can we tellyou, we trust you.
(30:45):
Can you, we tell you what racism is likein this company?
And it was so subtle and the nuances wereso small, but it was so painful.
And so we began the process of addressingthat.
And I just think it's like something thatas I was not the person that would have
been naturally selected.
So I encourage people who are allies tolead in and be the executive sponsor.
(31:07):
and you'll grow a lot in the process too.
right.
That's great advice.
And Rob, two more questions.
One, you know, you even talking with yourfluid foundation and otherwise your own
philanthropy as well, you know, a lot oforganizations, you know, a lot of
different outlets.
(31:30):
Oh, hold on.
I am getting a reconnect.
Hold on.
There we go.
Huh, anyway.
Okay, I'll start over.
So Rob, I've got two final questions andone of them, given your experience working
(31:54):
with a lot of organizations, your exampleof giving money to organizations with your
fluid foundation and otherwise, what aresome resources that you might offer to
folks who are listening to Clout for Goodthat may help them on their journey of
exploration and, and.
becoming more authentic themselves.
(32:17):
It's a great question.
I do think resources, you can look insideyour own company for resources.
We talked about that.
Resources are joining a nonprofit andgetting to know folks in other industries.
I think that's a great resource.
You know, getting involved in communityand give back.
I think that anyone really young can go tothe Fluids website.
(32:39):
It's not just about selling product.
It's also resources for every identityunder the queer umbrella.
And.
And the other thing I would just recommendis people find mentors and create strong
mentorships and look and nurture thosementors.
And those are the resources that I wouldrecommend.
I still, I would just went to a reunion inFlorida for the Burdines reunion and my
(33:03):
mentors just, I got to see about 20 ofthem and thank them.
But I think that each once a year, eachonce a year, I call up all my mentors and
say, thank you.
And how much they've meant to me.
So.
Find those people, nurture thoserelationships and continue them and carry
them forward.
That's amazing.
I think this calling your mentors once ayear, there's a piece of advice.
(33:24):
I love it.
That is fantastic.
it's so wonderful.
A lot of retired and, um, it's just sonice just to continue to, to share in
gratitude and to look back at, uh, for me,uh, you know, 35, almost 40 year long
career and just continue to find thosepeople and say, thank you.
You meant a lot to me and checking it.
(33:44):
How, how are you doing?
Like, how are you, you know, and checkinghow they are.
I think that a lot of times, and now, andnow it's my turn to be a mentor.
No, I'm having.
30 people from Macy's over who I had undermy division and just continuing to nurture
those relationships both ways.
That's amazing.
Impressive.
(34:04):
My, my last question, Rob is I askeveryone this, that's, that's a guest is
you're hosting a clout for good, if youwill dinner party, you're going to have
some folks over because you've just shareda lot of things or, you know, your, your
mentors and other folks you've talkedabout.
Um, you definitely, this conversation willinspire folks.
(34:24):
I think folks will definitely be, and Iencourage them to visit fluid.
And, um, so.
I like to ask folks that are on the show,who would you invite to a Clout for Good
dinner party if you were organizing one?
What few people that have inspired youalong the way who are from the community,
either here with us now or they havepassed along, but who are some folks that
(34:48):
you would want to have at that dinnerparty?
I'm going to have a dinner party where Isay thank you.
And my dinner party is actually fourpeople, if I can.
The first is a pair, it's Marsha P.
Johnson and Sylvia Rivera.
I wanna hear their stories, I wanna saythank you for helping lead the queer
(35:11):
revolution and say I'm sorry that the gaymen turned their backs on you and say
thank you for what you did.
And that's the first.
The second would be Harvey Milk.
I also want to say thank you for whatyou've done and the taking a bullet for
(35:32):
us, you know, and being the first.
And the fourth one would be David Mixner,who is my mentor.
I get a little emotional right now, whojust passed away a few weeks ago and
having back again to say thank you onemore time.
Yeah.
amazing.
And Rob, I didn't have the honor to go tohis funeral, but I know you were a huge
(35:56):
part of it.
And I have read so many wonderful thingsabout how he was honored and what you did
to contribute to that.
So sorry for your loss, but I also want tothank you for that honor that you gave
him.
It sounded like it was really beautiful.
So that's great.
I was blessed to, you know, spend a decadewith him, so close to him.
And he taught me so much about how to be aman, to live with principles, to also
(36:24):
suffer at times because of yourprinciples, but know that the arc of
justice is long and the fight is neverover.
So David taught me a lot.
He's actually, his face is staring at meright there at his painting.
I love it.
And I, and, and, and, and coincidentallyright here to my left, I have an original
(36:45):
Harvey milk campaign poster in my livingroom that that is, that is someone I would
invite.
So we'd, we'd be able to add someone elseto the list for sure.
Well, Rob, I love it.
I love it.
That would be fantastic.
Well, Rob, listen, thank you for all youdo with fluid and with you for the
contributions you make personally.
(37:06):
So first of all, thank you for that.
Thank you for taking the time to be oncloud for good.
I know folks are going to get a lot out ofour conversation and thank you for the
time.
I really appreciate it.
Thank you for the platform you've created.
You are making a difference too.
Thank you.
And go everyone, go be your authenticselves.
(37:27):
Go be your authentic selves.
Yes, loud and proud.
And if you, someone who's close to youdoesn't love you because of who you are,
there's a lot of other arms that are opento receive you.
You're perfect.
Yeah.
Yeah.
that, to my listeners, thanks to you aswell for joining today.
(37:48):
Please tune in every other Wednesday for anew episode of Clout for Good.
Follow us on social and visit the Cloutfor Good website to subscribe to our
newsletter.
I hope this episode motivates you to useyour Clout for Good and to make a
difference in the workplace.
Thanks for joining.
Hello everyone and welcome to Clout forGood.
It's a bi -weekly podcast that showcasespersonal and powerful conversations with
prominent LGBTQ plus executives who areout in the workplace.
The conversations are meant to create asupportive community and inspire LGBTQ
plus people, their employers and allies tobuild equity and inclusion in the
(00:24):
workplace.
Today, I'd like to welcome Rob Smith,who's the chief executive officer and
founder of Fluid, which includes the FluidProject,
Get Fluid and the Fluid Foundation.
Rob's created a brand combining hisprofession, which is retail, along with
his passion for a commitment for socialjustice.
(00:45):
Rob began a long career in retail spanningover 30 years, orchestrating multi
-billion dollar businesses throughmerchandising, e -commerce, marketing,
product development, and supply chainmanagement with brands like Macy's,
Victoria's Secret, Levi's, and Nike.
Rob leads the CSR committee as a member ofthe board of directors for Steve Madden
(01:07):
and is an executive in residence withWonderkind.
Rob lives in New York city with hishusband and his dog, Jackson.
Rob, thanks so much for your time todayand welcome to the show.
Thank you David for having me, Iappreciate it.
it's great to have you here.
So I'm excited today to talk.
I think that your experience being on sortof more traditional corporate side of the
(01:31):
business within the retail space, as Imentioned, those companies that you've,
you've worked for, and then also startinga business that's directly in the D E and
I LGBTQ plus space, really driving forauthenticity, which is what.
Cloud for Good is attempting to do aswell.
So I'm anxious to hear from you.
(01:52):
So the first question I have, I askeveryone the same question is, let's just
start talking about one.
Let us know how you identify and talkabout your professional coming out.
And I know we often have more than onecoming out experience.
We may have come out a lot of times.
So any of those examples or experiences,but tell us a little bit about.
(02:15):
coming out in the workplace for you andwhat that meant for you.
or I'll unpack what I, if I can rememberall your, the things you said.
First of all, how I identify, I use he,they pronouns.
I identify as a cisgendered, whitish,gayish man.
I say ish because there's a spectrum, youknow, for lots of us.
(02:37):
And yeah, I use he, they, I use, I most, Ihe, him, we go by he, him, but also they,
them.
I am an advocate for if you don't knowsomeone's pronouns, just use they, them.
It's very natural.
Um, whereas David, I don't know, I haven'tseen them for awhile.
Um, and, but like, yeah.
And also, um, I'm part indigenous and inthe journey that I took in creating fluid,
(03:00):
I found out about two spirit indigenouspeoples, which is the third gender.
And they were the most revered in theircommunities and, and usually are almost
often became shamans because they were,they had this balance of both masculine
and feminine energy.
And I think about where I am today in mylife through process of growing up is
(03:24):
embracing my feminine side and mymasculine side and living both truthfully
and creating my authentic self in thatprocess.
So that's how I identify.
Thanks.
And then the next question is my comingout story.
Yeah, that was a journey.
I, of course, knew I was queer from a veryyoung age.
(03:48):
I...
worked really hard to suppress anythingthat was perceived as queer.
So it was my younger self who was artisticand creative, loved theater and dolls and
hang with my sister and my brothers andwe're very much into sports and then
wasn't my gig.
And then going from junior high into highschool, I reinvented myself to someone
(04:11):
that I thought society and my family, myfaith and educators would see as more
accepting.
So I,played sports, I presented more masculine,
dressed more masculine.
And the world is great.
I had so many opportunities and I tookthat person into the professional space.
And then I realized like around the age of23 or 22, I wasn't really my authentic
(04:34):
self.
And I came out to my colleagues and myfamily and I was received so well.
I was received with so much love.
But one of the things I like to remindmyself and other people that when I came
out and1989 was a different time when you came
out, it was usually followed with, and bythe way, I'm HIV positive.
(04:55):
And so coming out to your family, yourcolleagues was that fear of not just the
world was going to be harder for you andyour career was going to be more
challenging, but you also might be facinga death sentence at the same time.
So there was a lot bundled in the comingout process at that time.
But I was received with love andacceptance from my family, from my
(05:18):
colleagues.
They laughed, they said, walk out of thecloset, I came screaming out of the
closet, I changed the way I dressed, Iwas, it was Miami Beach, I was working at
Berdines at the time, and I was receivedwith so much love and acceptance.
And then I like really shifted from, evenmy presentation, I refused to wear a suit
(05:38):
anymore, I would only wear a vest, I hadmore makeup, I pierced my ears.
I love it.
just came out with guns ablaze andreceived with so much.
And I remember even being interviewed byMay Company.
They would try to take me because I wasvery successful.
(05:58):
And I would always walk in with a redblazer and a Versace tie and just like
this outrageous guy in the Harvard club.
And I just felt like, is this the guy youreally want?
Because this is who you're getting.
And it's...
Yeah.
So I just coming out as my authentic selfand I figured I didn't want to work
anywhere where I couldn't be myself.
And that was, and I kind of wanted toalmost put it in people's faces.
(06:21):
Like this is who you're getting.
So I wouldn't waste my time or their timegoing someplace that I wouldn't be
embraced.
And I do think that when you're yourauthentic self at work, you're much more
productive.
You're more successful.
You're not thinking about what secretsyou're hiding or not telling.
And you're just able to show up 120%.
I love and Rob, you know, sometimes Ithink there are some stereotypes about
(06:44):
industries, you know, retail travel.
It's, you know, those are very, you know,LGBTQ friendly spaces.
Did you, do you think that's part of asyou were in retail at the time when you
were coming out?
Do you think the industry had anything todo with it or do you, what are your
thoughts on that?
Well, I mean, people think about fashionand retail as being super queer accepting.
(07:04):
The only role model I had was the head ofthe, not the fashion office, but the
visual department.
So the visual area was very queerfriendly.
The merchant team was, you know, a lot ofwhite straight Jewish guys.
And that was it with like a few women andwomen were really working through the
organization, especially at Berdine's.
(07:26):
But I was received across the board withlove and acceptance.
I think partially because I was so damngood at my job that they kind of had to
like address it.
But yeah, I mean, I still am close to theleaders at Bredine's at the time.
And just the love and acceptance, I can'teven tell you how much it meant to be able
(07:46):
to be that person.
And a lot of people don't have that.
I do think the retail industry probablycompared to like finance or, you know,
consumer goods or something like that is alittle different.
But I...
Yeah.
I mean, it was for in large part, I waspaving the way at that time and in the
late eighties to be openly gay.
(08:06):
and I think you've touched on somethingthat that prior guests on Club for Good
have mentioned, and that is everyone'sadvice is you got to do your job.
Number one, first and foremost, before youbefore you figure out who you're going to
show up as and how and what you're goingto fight for and advocate for.
Number one, do your job.
Check that box.
Make sure that you're delivering.
(08:26):
Make sure you understand what that lookslike.
So I think that definitely resonates.
And.
I myself came out in 1995.
I know we're both from Michigan, sort ofMidwest backgrounds and did the same thing
all through college.
It was, this was this persona I'm going topursue.
It's this sort of straight persona andthen, then figured it out myself.
(08:48):
And I think you touched on something thatI've often thought about as well, which is
back then the very first thing often outof the mouth of someone you just told you
were gay was.
Are you okay?
Are you going to be okay?
You know, are you sick?
What's going to happen?
And I think that definitely has changed,but it was real.
It was a very sort of scary thing to sortof navigate all of it, you know, with your
(09:13):
family and with your friends.
I also had a very accepting experience,you know, as well.
But what do you think, you know, I knowI'd like to hear a little more about, I
think it's a great opportunity for folksthat listen to Cloud for Good to hear a
little bit about Fluid.
Tell us about what that is.
well, before I do that, can I just say,and then that will lead into fluid.
(09:36):
I think I have drawn a strong correlationbetween coming out as a gay man in the
late 80s, early 90s as coming out as transtoday, that there is a stigma, a fear, a
misunderstanding, that there's a high rateof suicide, you know, and part of the
(09:58):
reason my fight,is so deep and grounded in, I guess,
purpose is because I understand and havesome empathy and understanding for what
the trans community is going through todaybecause of what we went through at the
time we went through it.
And it's very similar.
And I'm not sure many gay men or women seethat same similarity, but I see you now to
(10:22):
your head that you see it as well.
That they're, yeah.
sense.
Absolutely.
And interesting enough, statistically,looking at I looked at Gallup and as
morally acceptable in the year 2000, theAmericans saw gay and lesbian people,
Americans 40 % is morally acceptable.
(10:42):
And today it's around 90%.
But the trans community is at 40 % todaymorally acceptable.
And I think about the work and that has ageneration to come to achieve.
Great.
we are, if we continue with progress, thatthat's the fight that we're fighting right
now is that, and also interesting enough,for the first time ever, there was a
(11:05):
decline in gay men and gay women beingmorally acceptable.
So there is something to be concernedabout that there is, it's not all, you
know, rosy good that there is, if we'renot diligent, that this could turn back.
like it has in the past, you know, inother ways with other communities.
(11:26):
Yeah.
know, sort of anti -LGBTQ legislation withthe political environment now, it's more
than ever feels a bit like, you know, thetimes we're talking about, whether it's
eighties or nineties of, you know, we needto rally, we need to come together.
We really need to be focused becausethere's a lot at risk as we see things of
overturning Roe versus Wade and otherwise,there's a lot happening.
(11:50):
body autonomy.
I mean, it goes back to sodomy, you know,pretty soon if it's, you know, a woman's
body, it comes down to who we can haverelationships with that there'll be a
extremist governing of our bodies by agroup of people.
It's just something to consider.
Yeah, diligent and not to get comfortabletoo comfortable.
(12:12):
That's right.
Well, and I'm, I, I'd be interested tohear, um, well, as I mentioned earlier,
fluid and you know, you were working forthese global retail brands, you're having
a successful career.
Tell us about the transition from retailto fluid or, and it may not have been
(12:33):
that, that, that sort of clean cut of atransition.
It may have been fluid.
Um, tell us a little bit about it.
It was super clean.
It was like, I can tell you everythingthat happened on the journey.
So I remember just thinking that I wasliving two lives that one during the day,
it was my professional life.
And after work, I was working withnonprofits, was deeply involved with
(12:57):
Hetrick Barton, which is the LGBTQ plusafterschool program in New York, the first
ever of its kind in the country or aroundthe world.
along with other nonprofits.
So I felt like I was doing two thingsseparately.
And along this journey, it was always, theseparation kind of bothered me.
And then I went to my first Burning Manfor folks who don't know Burning Man is
(13:21):
this like, some people think it's like,it's all about music and it is about art
and music.
But it's really about radical inclusion.
It's about radical acceptance.
And this also,in a week long event that, that, that 75
,000 people come into this space and theyreally quickly adapt to this social code.
(13:42):
And, and the social code is acceptance andlove and, and self -expression.
And one of the funny things was by daytwo, that a lot of straight guys were
running into our RV and saying, can Iborrow a pair of tights?
Can you paint my nails?
Can I wear some, some eye makeup?
Can I wear your tutu today?
And I was like, wow, like so they were soliberated and free.
(14:03):
And I was really struck by that freedom ofsexuality, expression, all of it, just
because it was a safe place.
And then, and then they had to go back tolike the real world.
And there was actually like therapy groupsand for folks who worked at wall street,
how they adapt back to this like space.
Um, and I didn't know what it meant, but Iknew I wanted to do something different
(14:27):
with my life.
And so I quit my job.
And there's a saying, don't quit your jobafter your first burning man.
I quit my job.
I gave five months notice and I put on abackpack and I decided that the answer was
somewhere in the world.
And I traveled for six months around theworld.
a lot of time in India, Nepal, Tibet.
(14:49):
And I was in Central America and SouthAmerica.
In South America, I did a plant -basedjourney work in the Amazon.
And I remember on April 14th, 2017, Iwrote down, consider opening a gender
-free non -binary shopping environment.
I wrote fluid in quotation marks.
And I opened the world's first gender-free store 10 months later.
It was just like that.
Yeah.
(15:10):
And tell us about it.
Tell us about fluid.
Tell us about what you guys do and whereyou're headed and some things maybe you've
learned.
Tell us a little bit about.
Sure.
So the mission of Fluid is we challengeboundaries with humanity.
So we just say, we say, because somethinghas been one way, doesn't mean there's not
a better way.
And we try to find a better way for morepeople to be their authentic selves in
(15:31):
this planet, in this society.
And so we created the Fluid Project, whichis a gender free fashion brand, which is
grounded in community activism andeducation.
And from that,Idea was the world's first gender -free
store the store closed two years later,but the commitment to education community
and activism continues in ways And sothere's the fluid project fashion so last
(15:56):
year fluid showed up in about 8 ,000retail stores with categories from sense
and apparel and accessories and lots ofdifferent categories just launched an
intimacy collection, which is really cooland Then we launched
Get Fluid, which is gender expansivetraining.
So in the store, one of the social codesis we're all students, we're all teachers.
(16:20):
And I was a student for two years.
And then I thought, how do I teachcorporations about what's happening with
younger people?
Mostly younger people, not exclusivelyyounger people.
And so with training, how we trainstrategic advising training about 40
companies a year we work with.
And then focusing on community.
(16:43):
Two years ago, I launched the FluidFoundation and that's really about working
with corporations to allocate money tograssroots organizations.
So right now the big three get much of themoney.
You know, think about Trevor Project, HRCand GLAD.
But the small organizations, which aredoing a lot of great work, are getting no
(17:05):
money because they don't know how to writegrants, they don't have access to people
who have money.
So...
We have raised a million dollars in twoyears and we gift money.
We don't grant money.
We gift it to organizations.
And I think we're making a real differenceby doing that and moving just, and we do
it on trust.
We just give money and say, we trust you.
And it's a beautiful thing to do.
(17:26):
And then we also help corporationsvolunteer with these organizations across
the country.
So a lot of good work done there.
Oh my gosh, that's amazing.
What do you think is, you know, one of thethings about Cloud for Good is your
outness as an individual can allow you tomake good.
You know, you can really make an influencewhen you're authentic.
What do you, sort of two questions.
(17:47):
The first one, what are you most proud ofin, with an impact from the Fluid Project?
What are you most proud of over theseyears of getting that up and running and
sort of evolving and expanding it?
Um, I'm most proud of the inclusive spacethat we've created, the voices that we're
(18:09):
amplifying, the, the, the de-stigmatization of what beauty is of what
self, of what, who you can be.
So we've created a space of fluid,regardless of your gender, your
orientation, your race, your body size,ethnicity, ability, uh, faith.
(18:30):
that there's a place for you to fluid.
That is a welcoming place for all people.
And we really try to create a community oflike -minded people who are emboldened to
go out to make change for good.
And we use our platform.
I use my platform to open up doors andthen to bring the team in to do the good
(18:53):
work that they do.
So my team calls me the Trojan horse.
They push me in because of how I look andwho I am.
love it.
I just feel like every day I wake up andI'm not kidding when I say this, that I'm
so grateful for the life I have, theevery, every decision I've made that's led
(19:14):
me up to this point, every experience thatI've had that has led me up to this point,
that every single day when I look at mycalendar, I go, wow, I get to do good
work.
I get to travel to corporations and speakto senior leadership.
I get to, you know,be a keynote speaker at conferences, I get
to advocate on this space of inclusion.
(19:36):
And that includes not exclusively queerpeople, but also the intersection of all
these other identities.
And ultimately, my goal is to break apartsocietal constructs and ideas around what
it is to be male or female, what it is tobe gay or straight, to just like...
break it apart and say a gay man is notthis way, that there's other ways to be
(19:58):
gay, just like there is different ways tobe a straight man.
And once we break that apart, we allow mento find more of their feminine attributes
and same thing with women too.
So just about breaking apart this outdatedcolonial idea of what it is to be male or
female and any other identity.
(20:21):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, and Rob, congratulations and thankyou to you and your team for sure.
And, you know, one of the things that wetalk about on Cloud for Good is a lot of
folks that listen are, you know, they'renew to the workforce.
They're, they're navigating sort offiguring out what this is going to look
like for them.
How do I show up?
(20:42):
And, you know, as you describe fluid andyou describe this,
free, inclusive, accepting world, youknow, a lot of employees out there, as you
well know, certainly, as you're on yourvisits to companies and doing training,
I'm sure you're running into this.
What advice do you have for folks asthey're navigating this?
(21:04):
Because environments in the corporateworld are not always accepting or aren't
always sort of ready.
So what advice do you have for folks thatare thinking about
coming out or being more authentic, ormaybe even it's an ally who's thinking,
I'd like to help out.
I'd like to create a safer space forpeople in our work environment.
(21:26):
It's a great question and there's no oneright answer.
There's lots of different answers.
I would say to first of all, first of all,be comfortable with yourself.
You starts there, your validation becausesomeone may not accept you, but you're
deep inside.
You know who you are and it's right whoyou are and to find people in the company
(21:46):
who you can trust and talk to because noteverybody you can trust and talk to, you
know,Your stat even shows almost half of queer
people hide their identities at work.
And you know, what happens when you peoplehide their identity and some of them I
think are just our understanding that whocan I trust and not trust?
You know, that there's a there's there'sthis like, but sometimes we're wrong.
(22:10):
Sometimes we're right.
But we know that whether or not any timeof any type of phobia is overt or not, it
could be very subtle.
Could be just that you don't get thatpromotion.
You don't get this opportunity.
but to find mentors to help guide you.
And I think that allies can really step intoo, and to be an ally to a young queer
person, and somebody who's gay, somebodywho's trans, somebody who's, especially
(22:35):
the intersection.
Once you get to the intersection of beingqueer and a person of color, there's lots
of challenges navigating that.
So I just say, lean in and help people outwho are young on their career and on their
journey.
And on your journey yourself, find peoplewho you can trust and help you navigate
the process.
And then once you're inside, maybe youjoin the employee resource group, and then
(22:58):
you start to work out what does educationlook like inside the company?
How do you educate people, you know,throughout the company?
I think that's one of the things we do ishelp employee resource groups bring in
full representation.
Cause sometimes employee resource groupsare just people who look like you and I.
There are white gay men, white gay womenwho are in their forties and fifties.
Right.
full representation?
And if you can't do it yourself in yourcompany, start to think about hiring and
(23:22):
then hire people from the outside to comein and to speak and educate.
And know that your voice matters.
Like you can go in and say, I'd like toknow to the CEO, like I looked at our
board of directors and there's no queerrepresentation on our board.
Like, why is that?
I mean, I think it's okay to ask thesequestions, you know, and to have that
confidence that, you know, you can makethe change.
(23:44):
Once you're in a position of influence,you can do it.
That's right.
Well, and I think those themes continue tobe reinforced, I think, through these
conversations of, you know, show up, doyour job.
And I think also sort of, as others havesaid, sort of seek your people, you know,
seek folks you can trust, seek folks, seeksmoke, you know, and create that.
And it is there.
(24:05):
And then I love your advice of, and go askfor it, go have a conversation.
There's absolutely no harm in that.
And it may be scary.
And certainly you need to, you know,ensure your
you're secure and you're okay.
There's no sort of danger, of course, butit's okay to have those conversations.
Go and have them.
have found that if you are fearless, youknow, and sometimes I think that the
(24:30):
person who's got, maybe it's a man who'sgot a wife and three kids going through
school may not be fearless because hecan't afford to like, you know, I think,
and sometimes as queer people, maybe wedon't have a traditional family or relate,
you know, sometimes we have the securityof two incomes, no kid that...
(24:51):
We can be fearless and your fearlessnesswill be appreciated by leadership.
They'll say, wow, listen to this personwho's speaking the truth and whether I
want to hear it or not, they're fearlessenough to come in.
And I think it's that gamble has workedfor me my entire life because I have had
really solid relationships with leadersbecause of my truth, because of one, I'm
(25:14):
really good at my job to your pointearlier, but also I'm saying what other
people won't say.
And maybe.
begins the process of them thinkingdifferently.
Well, and taking the time to say thosethings.
And I think, you know, my experience, Robis often more often than not, the
conversation you have is enlightening tothe other person.
(25:35):
So I think often we think there's a, youknow, a negative or cruel intention, if
you will.
And often it is lack of education, lack ofexposure, lack of knowledge.
And so having the courage to have thatconversation I have found results in.
a deeper, stronger relationship with thatindividual, an exchange of knowledge and
(25:57):
experiences that helps you move thingsforward.
I think there's just a real fear of whatcould happen.
And I think more often than not, it'spositive.
I think so you have to, you do have to bewilling to take that risk.
That's for sure.
And the risk in, you know, I have foundthat every time I'm speaking to someone in
power, someone in influence that they're ahuman too, that maybe they haven't thought
(26:20):
about something.
And, but you also speak to them as ahuman, you know, I, everyone I know,
whether they're my boss or somebody whoworks with me, I know their spouse's name
or their partner's name or their pet'sname.
I know their kids names.
I know about their lives.
So you're.
you develop a personal relationship withsomeone and then you can start to have
these conversations.
So it's not like, you know, out of the,out of like, but you, you treat them like
(26:42):
a human being and they'll respond with youas a human being as well.
That's right.
And I think these, the conversations withexecutives and folks in a position of
power kind of leads me to another questionaround, you know, you are working with
corporations, you've been a part of themas an employee and you know, through the
(27:04):
years, what advice would you now with allof this, this knowledge you have, what
advice would you give to corporations?
So for folks,that are listening to Club for Good now
that are part of their DENI program,they're in HR, they're executives.
What advice would you give companies?
Where do they start to, or what are maybesome of the key things they should focus
(27:26):
on to create more inclusive spaces, tocreate an environment for LGBTQ people to
thrive?
What advice would you give us if they'restarting this journey?
Yeah, I would say to start, create aformal process, an employee resource, ARG,
to create a formalized organization wherethere's a corporate sponsorship, there's
(27:49):
some structure.
You know, it's not just aboutrepresentation, but it's also about
inside, but it's also for the consumertoo.
How are you ensuring that the consumer ishaving a good experience if they identify
as queer?
And to work with other resource groups tofocus on the intersectionality of the
groups as well.
And so it's important to have a formalizedprocess where you can come with strategies
(28:12):
and ideas, have a sponsor and get in frontof leadership and make cases.
And then you're also becoming an advisoryboard.
But also I would say, understand yourshortcomings.
If you don't have anyone who's trans inyour team, how do you bring that voice?
Do you educate yourself or do you bring anoutside person in to speak about that?
(28:34):
And.
It's just really good for business.
And the other thing I would say to anyleader right now, who's hearing about a
backlash in DP &I about a fear of being,you know, somebody who's a, who was a
evolved, woken, you know, quotes companythat this is still the right thing to do
for business.
That companies who are inclusive, who willrecruit better talent, will retain better
(28:59):
talent and will offer a customerexperience that is.
It is business additive.
It's not just about checking off a do theright box.
It's about doing more business in ahealthy way.
Yeah.
Well, and it's, I think to your point,it's that checkbox has been checked.
Is DE &I good for business?
(29:20):
Yes.
Is allowing your employees, all of them toshow up who they are and to be able to
contribute authentically, does that helpand grow business?
Check.
I mean, there's so that that's proven.
And I think it's, but to your point,universities throwing out admission
criteria and all these things happening.
Um, put a challenge to it.
(29:40):
That's, that's for sure.
And it's funny.
Somebody said, why don't white straightguys have an employee resource group?
And somebody said, cause you have for thelast hundred years have had the really the
most exclusive employee resource group.
And so now it's time for other communitiesto step in.
But I'll tell you a great story, you know,as a, as a straight passing, a gay man,
(30:04):
and as somebody who was in a leadershipposition at Macy's when we formed employee
resource groups.
One of the things that I did when theywere asking for executive sponsors, I
chose women of color because there were nowomen of color.
Although I was the only queer person thatI could have obviously led the LGBTQ ERG,
(30:25):
but I chose women of color.
And in the process, I grew a lot and theyhad an advocate because the highest
turnover was men of black men and blackwomen were the highest turnover in the
company.
And after 18 months of sitting throughthese meetings, they said, Rob, they
closed the door and they said, can we tellyou, we trust you.
(30:45):
Can you, we tell you what racism is likein this company?
And it was so subtle and the nuances wereso small, but it was so painful.
And so we began the process of addressingthat.
And I just think it's like something thatas I was not the person that would have
been naturally selected.
So I encourage people who are allies tolead in and be the executive sponsor.
(31:07):
and you'll grow a lot in the process too.
right.
That's great advice.
And Rob, two more questions.
One, you know, you even talking with yourfluid foundation and otherwise your own
philanthropy as well, you know, a lot oforganizations, you know, a lot of
different outlets.
(31:30):
Oh, hold on.
I am getting a reconnect.
Hold on.
There we go.
Huh, anyway.
Okay, I'll start over.
So Rob, I've got two final questions andone of them, given your experience working
(31:54):
with a lot of organizations, your exampleof giving money to organizations with your
fluid foundation and otherwise, what aresome resources that you might offer to
folks who are listening to Clout for Goodthat may help them on their journey of
exploration and, and.
becoming more authentic themselves.
(32:17):
It's a great question.
I do think resources, you can look insideyour own company for resources.
We talked about that.
Resources are joining a nonprofit andgetting to know folks in other industries.
I think that's a great resource.
You know, getting involved in communityand give back.
I think that anyone really young can go tothe Fluids website.
(32:39):
It's not just about selling product.
It's also resources for every identityunder the queer umbrella.
And.
And the other thing I would just recommendis people find mentors and create strong
mentorships and look and nurture thosementors.
And those are the resources that I wouldrecommend.
I still, I would just went to a reunion inFlorida for the Burdines reunion and my
(33:03):
mentors just, I got to see about 20 ofthem and thank them.
But I think that each once a year, eachonce a year, I call up all my mentors and
say, thank you.
And how much they've meant to me.
So.
Find those people, nurture thoserelationships and continue them and carry
them forward.
That's amazing.
I think this calling your mentors once ayear, there's a piece of advice.
(33:24):
I love it.
That is fantastic.
it's so wonderful.
A lot of retired and, um, it's just sonice just to continue to, to share in
gratitude and to look back at, uh, for me,uh, you know, 35, almost 40 year long
career and just continue to find thosepeople and say, thank you.
You meant a lot to me and checking it.
(33:44):
How, how are you doing?
Like, how are you, you know, and checkinghow they are.
I think that a lot of times, and now, andnow it's my turn to be a mentor.
No, I'm having.
30 people from Macy's over who I had undermy division and just continuing to nurture
those relationships both ways.
That's amazing.
Impressive.
(34:04):
My, my last question, Rob is I askeveryone this, that's, that's a guest is
you're hosting a clout for good, if youwill dinner party, you're going to have
some folks over because you've just shareda lot of things or, you know, your, your
mentors and other folks you've talkedabout.
Um, you definitely, this conversation willinspire folks.
(34:24):
I think folks will definitely be, and Iencourage them to visit fluid.
And, um, so.
I like to ask folks that are on the show,who would you invite to a Clout for Good
dinner party if you were organizing one?
What few people that have inspired youalong the way who are from the community,
either here with us now or they havepassed along, but who are some folks that
(34:48):
you would want to have at that dinnerparty?
I'm going to have a dinner party where Isay thank you.
And my dinner party is actually fourpeople, if I can.
The first is a pair, it's Marsha P.
Johnson and Sylvia Rivera.
I wanna hear their stories, I wanna saythank you for helping lead the queer
(35:11):
revolution and say I'm sorry that the gaymen turned their backs on you and say
thank you for what you did.
And that's the first.
The second would be Harvey Milk.
I also want to say thank you for whatyou've done and the taking a bullet for
(35:32):
us, you know, and being the first.
And the fourth one would be David Mixner,who is my mentor.
I get a little emotional right now, whojust passed away a few weeks ago and
having back again to say thank you onemore time.
Yeah.
amazing.
And Rob, I didn't have the honor to go tohis funeral, but I know you were a huge
(35:56):
part of it.
And I have read so many wonderful thingsabout how he was honored and what you did
to contribute to that.
So sorry for your loss, but I also want tothank you for that honor that you gave
him.
It sounded like it was really beautiful.
So that's great.
I was blessed to, you know, spend a decadewith him, so close to him.
And he taught me so much about how to be aman, to live with principles, to also
(36:24):
suffer at times because of yourprinciples, but know that the arc of
justice is long and the fight is neverover.
So David taught me a lot.
He's actually, his face is staring at meright there at his painting.
I love it.
And I, and, and, and, and coincidentallyright here to my left, I have an original
(36:45):
Harvey milk campaign poster in my livingroom that that is, that is someone I would
invite.
So we'd, we'd be able to add someone elseto the list for sure.
Well, Rob, I love it.
I love it.
That would be fantastic.
Well, Rob, listen, thank you for all youdo with fluid and with you for the
contributions you make personally.
(37:06):
So first of all, thank you for that.
Thank you for taking the time to be oncloud for good.
I know folks are going to get a lot out ofour conversation and thank you for the
time.
I really appreciate it.
Thank you for the platform you've created.
You are making a difference too.
Thank you.
And go everyone, go be your authenticselves.
(37:27):
Go be your authentic selves.
Yes, loud and proud.
And if you, someone who's close to youdoesn't love you because of who you are,
there's a lot of other arms that are opento receive you.
You're perfect.
Yeah.
Yeah.
that, to my listeners, thanks to you aswell for joining today.
(37:48):
Please tune in every other Wednesday for anew episode of Clout for Good.
Follow us on social and visit the Cloutfor Good website to subscribe to our
newsletter.
I hope this episode motivates you to useyour Clout for Good and to make a
difference in the workplace.
Thanks for joining.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Betrayal Weekly
Betrayal Weekly is back for a new season. Every Thursday, Betrayal Weekly shares first-hand accounts of broken trust, shocking deceptions, and the trail of destruction they leave behind. Hosted by Andrea Gunning, this weekly ongoing series digs into real-life stories of betrayal and the aftermath. From stories of double lives to dark discoveries, these are cautionary tales and accounts of resilience against all odds. From the producers of the critically acclaimed Betrayal series, Betrayal Weekly drops new episodes every Thursday. If you would like to share your story, you can reach out to the Betrayal Team by emailing them at betrayalpod@gmail.com and follow us on Instagram at @betrayalpod and @glasspodcasts. Please join our Substack for additional exclusive content, curated book recommendations, and community discussions. Sign up FREE by clicking this link Beyond Betrayal Substack. Join our community dedicated to truth, resilience, and healing. Your voice matters! Be a part of our Betrayal journey on Substack.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com