May 25, 2025 • 37 mins
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Death – the ultimate taboo that most of us spend our lives avoiding. Yet what if confronting our mortality could be the key to living more fully? In this thought-provoking conversation, we explore the complex relationship humans have with death and why finding peace with it matters.
We begin by examining where our beliefs about death originate. Have you ever stopped to ask yourself why you believe what you believe about death? Chances are, those thoughts aren't entirely your own but rather inherited from family, religion, culture, and countless external sources. This programmed thinking often goes unexamined, leaving us with perspectives we've never truly chosen for ourselves.
The mind processes death on multiple levels. At the foundation is what we call the "body-mind" – that reflexive, survival-oriented part that instinctively avoids danger and trigger fears when threatened. This explains our immediate aversion to death. But beyond this lies our conscious thinking and higher awareness, each offering different relationships with mortality. What's fascinating is how the physical body naturally prepares for death, releasing chemicals like adenosine and melatonin to facilitate the process when death approaches naturally. The body knows how to die, even when our minds resist.
Finding peace with death doesn't require having all the answers. It simply requires an open mind and willingness to explore. Like building a muscle, thinking about death becomes easier with practice and can lead to profound shifts in how we live. Whether you find comfort in returning to the earth or continuing in some spiritual form, what matters most is developing comfort with the inevitable. As we share in this episode, "I think the more you think about death, actually, the more peace you receive from it."
Join us for our next episode where we'll share our personal journeys and research that has shaped our perspectives on death. Our goal isn't to convince anyone of a particular viewpoint but to offer alternative ways of thinking that might bring greater peace. After all, approaching our final moments with serenity may be one of life's greatest achievements.
We hope this helps a little as you go through your day.
We would love to hear your feedback or questions.
We will respond to both in future episodes.
Check us out at
www.somhypnosis.com
Email us at
info@somhypnosis.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Well, it's easy to dismiss those conversations
because people will say, well,you can't know.
And I don't really agree withthat myself, but that's my
opinion.
Speaker 3 (00:18):
What if you could know a little bit right?
What if you could know or feellike you knew a little bit, I
think.
And who knows what I'll be likeon the day, in the hour, in the
minute?
You know, I can sit here andsay I'll be peaceful, but maybe
I won't.
I really hope for my case thatI would have an element of peace
(00:44):
, and I think the more you thinkabout death, actually, the more
peace you receive from it.
This is Coffee with Hilary andLes a podcast about the mind.
Join us by the lake as we sipour coffee and talk about the
mind and how to change it.
Together, we explore how tobreak free of the past and open
(01:07):
up a whole new future.
Okay, we are on the line.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
On the line on a cloudy morning in the spring.
Just notice that the apple treeis covered in blossoms, and
those blossoms will probablylast three days.
That's the kind of look on thattree that you would love to
have it there all the time.
Yeah.
Yeah, but it only lasts a fewdays.
(01:39):
Yeah, things die.
Speaker 3 (01:46):
But an apple comes from it.
Speaker 2 (01:48):
right, there you go I wonder if the blossom knows it
will become an apple or justknows that it's doing its part,
yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
so we're on our thirdinstallment, installment of
death of oh my god uh, thoughtsabout death and and the first
(02:12):
one we sort of talked about alittle bit about.
You know why we were talkingabout it?
Because it was been such apresent theme in my life for a
while.
And and just focusing on, wheredo these thoughts come from?
(02:33):
You know, where does ourunderstanding of death come from
?
And is it a program, is itanother kind of thing that
hypnosis can help us with?
And then we went on and wetalked a little bit about how we
interpret it and what ourexperience of it is, because
(02:53):
everybody has a differentexperience of death.
Yeah, because it's justsomething that comes into our
lives, right, and a lot of timeswe don't notice it.
Like you know, the blossoms onthe tree wouldn't think of it,
with the blossoms and the petalsfalling on the ground as a form
of death.
But it is a an ending for thosepetals, it's an ending for the
(03:15):
flower that will become, youknow, within nature's reach,
within nature's way, it willbecome an apple yeah, yeah um,
and you know, that can be in andof itself just a lovely little
reframe, another way to thinkabout endings and death.
(03:39):
But then we started talkingabout now.
How can we uh, we were talkingthis morning how can we now
offer a podcast where we helppeople with the way they think
about death?
What could we offer as anotherunderstanding of death?
Speaker 3 (03:56):
We're pretty confident that we have our own
right where, at least, I wasreally struggling with wanting
to offer something for people to, you know, chew on in their
mind but not allowing my.
You know well, I called it bias.
(04:17):
You said that maybe wasn't theright word, but you know, that
idea, that understanding of myown, that everybody has right,
their own sort of understandingor thoughts of what it might be,
um, and I didn't want that toget muddled into the podcast,
right, um it's hard not to it'shard not to.
(04:37):
It really is.
Speaker 2 (04:38):
It really is hard not to I don't think there's
anybody out there who doesn'thave some opinion about what
death is and where it leads andwhere it doesn't lead, and
things like that.
I don't think it's possible tobe alive in the world today and
not have been both exposed to awhole bunch of opinions and not
(05:05):
not settled on one for yourselfyeah, yeah and I don't know if
that's again, I don't know ifthat's a bias, because the
question really becomes you know, can you know?
right?
That's what.
That's the challenge.
How do you know?
How can you know?
Yeah right.
What is death?
(05:27):
How can you know until you'vegone through it and then you're
not here to talk about it?
Exactly, yeah yeah, yeah um,and so you have had a set of
experiences that have led you toan opinion, an understanding.
(05:47):
I have a set of experiencesthat have led me to an opinion
or an understanding, and we usethe word opinion, I suppose, to
buffer against or juxtapose theidea of truth or fact.
Speaker 3 (06:06):
Yeah, yeah, and I was saying earlier, there are
truths in this world, absolutely, that we've come to, but I
think a lot of the things we putout there as truths are still
opinions for the time being.
(06:26):
Right, think about science.
Hopefully, it's constantlychanging and learning and
updating, but we tend to put itforward as this is the truth.
This is the facts, right, yeah,for this 20 years, until we do
it again and find something new.
Speaker 2 (06:45):
And science itself is a form of bias.
Right, yeah, for this 20 yearsuntil we do it again and find
something new.
And science itself is a form ofbias.
Right, it's a method.
It's a method that says weformulate a theory, we try to
control for factors and test forother factors.
And we try to determine if thedata supports the theory.
(07:09):
Yeah, right, and that is agreat method of trying to
distinguish.
You know, I don't know what tosay, other than you know to
distinguish truth from falsity,right, and it has become our
(07:31):
fallback position in our societyright.
It is we call ourselvesevidence-based and we fall back
to.
You know, can science provethis?
But science is a method andit's only one method, and the
question is more about what isthe appropriate method to use to
(07:56):
determine an understanding ofnon-physical experiences,
non-physical experiences,non-physical truth.
Yeah.
So methodologies are inthemselves a form of bias and
(08:18):
it's not always a good idea totrap yourself in one method,
because some methods are reallygood at Some things.
We become really good at thedouble-blind study, right, the
double-blind study where we'retesting the efficacy of a drug
as it relates certain andimpacts an illness, and we get
(08:42):
two groups of people and and weget two groups of people and
some get a placebo and some getthe drug and nobody knows who's
getting what?
the experiment administratorsdon't know.
And then the data points todetermine whether or not this
(09:14):
study was reliable.
What we found is the larger thesample, the more reliable the
study, and this is a reallypowerful method for answering
certain questions mm-hmm but itdoesn't answer questions.
Like you know, is death real?
(09:35):
Mm-hmm well.
Speaker 3 (09:37):
So it's very.
It's a qualitative issue.
Issue Right, you can't putnumbers to it.
Really it's subjective to theexperiencer.
Speaker 2 (09:55):
Well, it's just really hard to measure what's on
the other side of it right.
Yeah, yeah.
And so, on the one hand, thereare those who are quick to
dismiss anything and there areothers that are very excited
about finding other ways oflooking at it, with other forms
(10:18):
of experiment.
I think, in the end, you knowwhat we're really talking about.
What we're most concerned withis we don't want to sound like
smart alecks who think they know.
Yeah.
Although I'm very confident inwhat I've come to see as my
understanding of it.
At the same time, everybody'sexperience is going to guide
(10:41):
them elsewhere, and I think thatwas really why I wanted people
to think about their ownexperience.
I wanted people to just spendthe time and ask themselves you
know, what do I think aboutdeath, where do those thoughts
come from, and and what is myexperience of death?
Speaker 3 (10:56):
mm-hmm, because I believe that the most reliable
source of data is yourself yeahand maybe just asking yourself,
like you said, about what youthink about death and then
asking the next question is ifyou're not there already, you
know what would it mean to bepeaceful about death?
Speaker 2 (11:22):
right that's why we're here, right?
Yeah, the whole idea of us andour work and this podcast is to
try to help.
Try to help others andourselves find more peaceful
ways to look at the normalthings of life, the stuff we're
(11:42):
all going to bump into, tounderstand where we get our
opinions from right and to, inmany respects, soften our stance
on what we might insist istruth.
Speaker 3 (12:01):
Yeah, Truth, yeah, and I think you know, is the
insisting of truth uh, ladenwith fear or anger.
Because I can totallyunderstand how, over the
(12:24):
generations, over the millennia,how fear and anger can be a
driving force to uh, you know,say um, that nothing happens
after.
Speaker 2 (12:47):
I think it's important to see fear as this
enormous predisposition let'suse that word.
This is a crazy world.
We're looking outside and thewind's starting to blow and the
clouds are coming.
My thoughts go immediately tois the yard protected?
(13:09):
Do I need to bring things in?
How bad is this storm going toget?
And I automatically really amgoing to interpretations of my
environment and determiningwhether or not I should be
afraid of them and what level offear I should have.
I think when we meet new people, we can be very, very open and
(13:30):
very excited.
Won't it be great to meet newpeople?
And others are.
Oh my goodness, I'm going to bereally afraid.
I don't know these people.
These people might not like me,these people might attack me.
These people might have viewsand thoughts and practices that
cause me upset.
You know, I think that there'sthis enormous predisposition to
(13:54):
think that we need to beprotecting ourselves all the
time to think that we need to beprotecting ourselves all the
time.
And when we think about the mind, when we talk about the mind, I
think about body-mind.
I think about body-mind insimple forms, like reflexes how
our body will flinch, it willpull back, it will react, it
(14:18):
will block, it will protect, itdoes these things reflexively.
There isn't a cognitive thoughtbehind it.
It is the body protectingitself.
And then the body, I think,also has a cognitive ability to
evaluate circumstances around itand avoid and plan and do the
(14:47):
simplest things.
I think of the body-mind as areally kind of deep, automatic
protection mechanism that'sinside us.
I don't think that it needs tobe developed, I don't think it
needs to be enhanced, I thinkit's sort of automatically there
.
And so I always think about thebody.
I try to separate the mind, thehigher mind, the cognitive mind
(15:12):
, the programmed mind.
I try to separate those alittle bit from the body mind,
which is about survival, it'sabout protection.
And then I take it up a layerand I realize that I can.
I can develop the body mind, Ican train it, I can develop body
(15:34):
memory, right, Like I think ofthat when I play the guitar.
Often I'll play a song that Ihave played so many times that
if I stop and think about it,I'm going to mess it up.
Yeah, and if I just let my bodymemory go through it.
It's going to come out justfine.
Or at least it's going to comeout exactly like it did last
(15:55):
time, right.
And this body memory again, Ithink, is the kind of thing I
can develop and I can enhanceand I can use to my advantage
and I can develop habits thatreally promote my safety,
promote my health.
And these kinds of things cantake place without a lot of
(16:17):
cognitive thought, without a lotof deliberate intention.
And then, you know, I thinkthat there's a part of the body,
mind, that thinks of death andis averse to it.
And early in life, no big deal,it's not really relevant to me.
(16:38):
I'm young, only old people die.
That's a program.
That's a program that goes deepinside of us.
Only old people should die.
That's a program that can godeep inside of us and that can
become sort of a habitualreaction to death.
And I think that there's thisbody-mind aspect to us, that is,
(17:02):
you know, people will think ofthe sympathetic nervous system,
people will think about thereflex nervous system.
These are parts of us that arevery reactive and can from time
to time be wrong and result inan inappropriate response.
(17:25):
And then there's the programmedpart of us and then there's the
higher part of us, the part ofus that reflects the part of us
that seeks meaning, the part ofus that sees meaning in
everything, even when it doesn'thave meaning, and each of those
(17:47):
aspects of our mind is going tohave its own reaction to death
yeah yeah, and they're all sortof battling for first place.
Speaker 3 (18:00):
You know, there it's just a constant.
It's its own um contrast withineach other.
You know, if you think of eachas a what do they call venn
diagram or something, they'reall sort of trying to be the one
that's at the forefront.
But the higher mind I thinkthere's a an allowing that needs
(18:28):
to happen there, because thehigher mind will sit back, I
believe right, it'll sit backand not force you to do anything
.
But I think there's always thatpart that you think of, those
times where people fall and falland fall and then they hit rock
bottom, right, the body-mind,those things that we grasp onto,
(18:55):
and then the higher mind, ifyou allow it, you know, can can
sometimes bring you out of thatwell, that body mind and that
trained body mind comes forwardfast and first when fear hits
yeah right whenever thecircumstances around you are
interpreted very quickly withouta lot of processing.
Speaker 2 (19:20):
When they kick in fear, the body's systems move
into a whole other mode and they, they jump ahead.
They don't give you a chancereally to reflect, and so it's
really normal for people to goout in the yard and you know
they see something dead on theground to immediately have an
(19:43):
aversion to it.
Yeah, right.
You know, millennia of evolution, as some might say, causes us
to have that aversion because itcould carry disease, or it
could be the beginning of aproblem, or it could be, yeah
heck, it could be just bait forsomebody trying to get you.
(20:06):
I mean the point is is thatwhen it comes to death, I think
there are body-mind issues?
Speaker 3 (20:19):
that cause us to have an aversion to it.
But I find it amazing as Ilearn more and more about death,
and I'd like to look it up,maybe while we're talking here.
But if you know, god willing,we all have an easy death right,
which we know isn't going tohappen exactly for everybody,
(20:43):
but the body, the body knows.
It's like this amazing naturalprocess that happens you start
sleeping more.
That, I learned, is a certain.
I think it's like calcium orsomething.
(21:03):
Something goes up in your bloodsystem to make you sleep more,
right, and that's what I'd liketo look up.
But there's all these processesthat begin to happen to allow
the body to shut down, which isincredible really.
(21:24):
And of course, in our Westernsystem, we do everything and
anything to try to not make thathappen.
But we already went over that.
But just this natural process.
I interviewed somebody who felt,who died briefly, of not having
(21:52):
dehydration.
He had had surgery and just wasdehydrated, didn't realize, and
so he started to notice thebody shutting down and each
organ shutting down.
You can feel it, it'sfascinating.
And then the moment of well,wait a minute, my body's shut
(22:16):
down.
How am I still thinking?
Moment of well, wait a minutemy body's shut down, how am I
still thinking right?
How am I still processing?
Speaker 2 (22:24):
so anyway, um just these natural processes that
take place yeah, the body canreally facilitate its own demise
when it knows that the demiseis imminent and can make changes
.
I mean, we watched that with myfather.
We watched him physically shiftand change.
(22:48):
And science, you know sciencein terms of medical studies,
observing and noting symptoms,noting phenomena that causes
them to see patterns.
And yeah, science sees thepatterns and notes its
(23:11):
repetitive nature, that ithappens across different kinds
of people in different kinds ofplaces.
And science says, hey, there isan actual when the body knows
that it's on the verge of demise, it goes through a series of
steps and the mind goes througha series of steps.
That's we talked earlier about,Elizabeth Kubler-Ross.
And you know, when people aretold that they're going to die,
(23:38):
they go through a series ofemotional steps, a series of
emotional thresholds.
Really, again, I'm not sure howmuch of that is learned or how
much that is just body-mind andhow most of us, with our body
(24:03):
awareness, go through these sameemotional steps.
Are you looking at a list ofthose steps?
Speaker 3 (24:14):
No, I was looking up the thing.
I wanted to look up about whatgets released into the body more
.
I wanted to look up about whatgets released into the body more
and it talks about stuffadenosine and melatonin and
(24:37):
inflammatory chemicals.
Speaker 2 (24:42):
So, yeah, just those things start to rise in the body
, um, and it has its own process, right?
Yeah, so chemically the bodyshifts, mentally the body shifts
.
You know the kubler-ross stagesof denial and anger and
bargaining and depression andacceptance, and how for some
people those steps take a longtime because for some people
being told they're going to diein the near future, they go
(25:05):
through those steps in a slowerway.
And then others might gothrough it very, very quickly
when they don't have a lot oftime and they discover that
they're going to go.
And of course there are allthose people who go by accident,
right, something that wasn'tanticipated, something that
wasn't of time, and theydiscover that they're going to
go.
And of course there are allthose people who go by accident,
right, something that wasn'tanticipated, something that
wasn't an illness, somethingthat wasn't gradual.
(25:26):
Yeah, and I think that thesekinds of things are are.
Again, I turn to the body-mind.
There's so much that the bodytakes care of without any
thought, and it's amazing how wereact to it.
(25:47):
You know that unconscious mindthat's keeping the heart beating
, keeping digestion happening,keeping healing going on,
immunity, going on stuff younever think about or yet need to
think about.
The body just takes care of it,and very much.
When we interact with that partof the mind because we can you
know, we've done biofeedbackstudies we can trigger people
(26:13):
into seeing you something thatis intimidating or threatening
and, as a result, their bodyimmediately responds into the
sympathetic nervous system andthen the adrenal glands kick in,
the cortisol pumps and thepupils dilate, right.
(26:35):
You know, all these thingshappen physically, on an
unconscious level, through asomewhat aware attention that
the mind puts on it, and sothere's that whole world there.
I think that we can't ignoreand that that will impact the
way we think about death, willimpact the way we think about
(27:01):
death.
Those kinds of experiences ofaversion to death, those kinds
of experiences of physical fearof death, I think those are
going to be part of what comesup in our mind as we consider
the topic.
But setting all of those asideand looking to the programming
part, you ask somebody whathappens when you die.
(27:25):
I don't think there's anybodywho doesn't have an opinion.
I don't know that anybody'sopinion is necessarily 100%
accurate, but I think we haveassembled inside ourselves,
through our life experience andthe degree to which we've
examined the question, we haveanswers to that.
(27:47):
We have what you might call anopinion.
Yeah, what you might call anopinion?
Yeah.
So this is where we sit as wedecide to move on and talk about
death.
And what is it that we can doin our own minds to make death
less threatening, to make theidea of death more natural, to
(28:12):
make the acceptance of deathmore natural, to make the
acceptance of death of others,of ourselves?
Speaker 3 (28:21):
Palatable.
Speaker 2 (28:23):
Palatable, just less judged, I guess, is what I'm
driving at.
Right, that's very human.
This is good, this is bad, thisis right, this is wrong.
It's very easy to say when athree-year-old dies, that's
wrong.
And it's very easy to say thatwhen a 91-year-old dies, oh,
that's good, that's natural.
(28:43):
But that's just our programmingthat thinks that death and age
should be associated, should,meaning there's a right and
there's a wrong to it.
We even think that way abouthow people die.
That's a bad death.
That's a good death.
That's a way to die.
That's not a way to die.
(29:04):
We program our soldiers toaccept death in a different way
than the average person would.
We program our heroes, ourwarriors, our police, our
(29:25):
firefighters, our EMTs?
They go into dangeroussituations.
There's an element of what theydo that they're trained to
experience death, to face death,to deal with death, to protect
themselves from their own death.
There's another whole world ofprogramming that takes place in
(29:50):
certain groups of people.
Speaker 3 (29:51):
Yes, a hero's death.
Speaker 2 (29:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (29:55):
Hillary and Les offer both in-person and online
hypnosis services for clientsaround the world.
If that interests you, visitour website psalmhypnosiscom and
sign up for a free consultation, or send us an email at info at
psalmhypnosiscom.
An email at info atpsalmhypnosiscom.
Speaker 2 (30:14):
With all of that said , you know, everybody has
opinions and everybody.
Some people have strongopinions, Some people have
non-negotiable opinions.
For some people, this wholeconversation is something they
would avoid.
Yeah.
For some people they've made uptheir mind.
They really don't want todiscuss it because they really
(30:36):
don't want to change their mind,because they've found a
peaceful place within themselves.
But I think that that's rare.
I think for most people theyavoid.
They just I don't want to talkabout it, I don't want to think
about it.
Speaker 3 (30:52):
It's like politics, or you, you know it's on that
level well it's.
Speaker 2 (30:58):
It's easy to dismiss those conversations because
people will say, well, you can'tknow.
And I don't really agree withthat myself, but that's my
opinion what if you could know alittle bit?
Speaker 3 (31:11):
What if you could know a little bit right?
What if you could know or feellike you knew a little bit?
I think, and who knows, whatI'll be like on the day, in the
hour, in the minute.
I can sit here and say I'll bepeaceful, but maybe I won't.
I really hope for my case thatI would have an element of peace
(31:34):
and I think the more you thinkabout death, actually, the more
peace you receive from it.
I know people think I'm insanefor thinking about death this
often and talking about it andfor you know that's a whole
(31:57):
other podcast, but I think itdoes bring.
I think it's a habit, it's likea muscle that you need to sort
of work is the thought aboutdeath and, you know, finding
(32:19):
peace with it at some level,whatever that peace is.
Some people might find peacejust going into the ground and
becoming part of the earth andnourishing the earth, and that's
their peace the ground andbecoming part of the earth and
nourishing the earth, and that'stheir peace.
And some people find peace andlight and and whatever they
think of as God, creator,creation, and that's their peace
(32:42):
.
And I but I think no matterwhat you do in life, I think
that it's important to have apeaceful mind at death as much
as you can.
Speaker 2 (32:54):
Well, I think that's our goal with this podcast and
we should really sort of pausethis podcast here and pick up
again with those next steps,those next thoughts.
I think the reason we reallybroke this in half, the reason I
(33:14):
wanted to break it in half wasthat I don't want to attack
anybody's thoughts.
I don't want anybody feelinglike our opinions or our views
or our experiences or ourresearch should be rammed down
their throat.
And so if you're one of thosepeople that has really strong
feelings about death, you'vealready got a strong opinion
(33:36):
about it.
You already know what you know.
You don't want to think aboutit anymore.
Thank you very much.
My only suggestion is, you know,always ask yourself good
critical thinking, right, if Ithink this, where did I get that
from?
Because the truth is, there arevery, very few thoughts in your
mind that you haven't receivedfrom somebody else.
(33:57):
There are very, very fewopinions and perspectives that
are in your mind that youhaven't received from somebody
else.
We are all, in many respects,the collection of other people's
thoughts and opinions, andoften people that we really
(34:18):
respect and really really liketheir opinions end up in our
opinions quickly and easily.
So if you can examine yourselfand say you know, what do I
think of death, what's myexperience with death, what do I
think of death?
And you can say to yourself youknow, I'm not really sure that
(34:39):
I think that's a greatopen-minded approach to what
might come in our next podcast.
If you're one of those who saysno, no, no, I've already made up
my mind, according to my family, according to my religion,
according to my view.
You know, this is the way it is.
My only suggestion to you isjust ask yourself the question
(35:01):
says who told you that?
Whose opinion is that really?
Because maybe it isn't yours.
Maybe your opinion can change,maybe your opinion can expand.
Maybe there's a whole lot ofinformation out there that has
been ignored because this isjust a really taboo topic.
(35:21):
Maybe there's a lot ofinformation out there that you
might want to explore becauseyou're afraid.
So in many respects, I offerall of my respect to everyone.
You have your mind, you haveyour comfort level.
It is not my goal in life totell people the way it is.
(35:43):
It is my goal in life to behelpful, and I have found for
myself the combination of myexperience and my research and
my personal exploration hascompletely and dramatically
changed my view of death and Iwould like to share that in the
podcast that comes next.
And if you're really solid andreally rigid, then skip that one
(36:08):
, that one, because I think, asyou started to say, hillary, you
have put a lot of time, a lotof emotion, into figuring out
where you stand with death and Ifeel like I've sort of done the
(36:29):
same.
Speaker 3 (36:30):
Yeah, so the next podcast will be just sharing our
experiences and our thoughts onit, and it doesn't mean that
they're the right thoughts.
It just means that it's oursort of opinions based on our
experiences.
Speaker 2 (36:47):
And maybe in there there's some things you might
want to explore for your ownbenefit.
Speaker 3 (36:52):
Yeah, there's some really interesting things in
there.
There's some things you mightwant to explore for your own
benefit.
Yeah, there's some reallyinteresting things in there.
Speaker 2 (36:54):
And it's not that I necessarily want to promote my
opinion, but I think that I'mreally grateful for the calmness
that I have around it,especially having just gone
through what my father wentthrough, so it brings me a lot
of peace.
Speaker 3 (37:13):
Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (37:17):
So stop this one there, and then we'll pick it up
again.
Yep, see you later, thank you.
Well, it's easy to dismiss those conversations
because people will say, well,you can't know.
And I don't really agree withthat myself, but that's my
opinion.
Speaker 3 (00:18):
What if you could know a little bit right?
What if you could know or feellike you knew a little bit, I
think.
And who knows what I'll be likeon the day, in the hour, in the
minute?
You know, I can sit here andsay I'll be peaceful, but maybe
I won't.
I really hope for my case thatI would have an element of peace
(00:44):
, and I think the more you thinkabout death, actually, the more
peace you receive from it.
This is Coffee with Hilary andLes a podcast about the mind.
Join us by the lake as we sipour coffee and talk about the
mind and how to change it.
Together, we explore how tobreak free of the past and open
(01:07):
up a whole new future.
Okay, we are on the line.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
On the line on a cloudy morning in the spring.
Just notice that the apple treeis covered in blossoms, and
those blossoms will probablylast three days.
That's the kind of look on thattree that you would love to
have it there all the time.
Yeah.
Yeah, but it only lasts a fewdays.
(01:39):
Yeah, things die.
Speaker 3 (01:46):
But an apple comes from it.
Speaker 2 (01:48):
right, there you go I wonder if the blossom knows it
will become an apple or justknows that it's doing its part,
yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
so we're on our thirdinstallment, installment of
death of oh my god uh, thoughtsabout death and and the first
(02:12):
one we sort of talked about alittle bit about.
You know why we were talkingabout it?
Because it was been such apresent theme in my life for a
while.
And and just focusing on, wheredo these thoughts come from?
(02:33):
You know, where does ourunderstanding of death come from
?
And is it a program, is itanother kind of thing that
hypnosis can help us with?
And then we went on and wetalked a little bit about how we
interpret it and what ourexperience of it is, because
(02:53):
everybody has a differentexperience of death.
Yeah, because it's justsomething that comes into our
lives, right, and a lot of timeswe don't notice it.
Like you know, the blossoms onthe tree wouldn't think of it,
with the blossoms and the petalsfalling on the ground as a form
of death.
But it is a an ending for thosepetals, it's an ending for the
(03:15):
flower that will become, youknow, within nature's reach,
within nature's way, it willbecome an apple yeah, yeah um,
and you know, that can be in andof itself just a lovely little
reframe, another way to thinkabout endings and death.
(03:39):
But then we started talkingabout now.
How can we uh, we were talkingthis morning how can we now
offer a podcast where we helppeople with the way they think
about death?
What could we offer as anotherunderstanding of death?
Speaker 3 (03:56):
We're pretty confident that we have our own
right where, at least, I wasreally struggling with wanting
to offer something for people to, you know, chew on in their
mind but not allowing my.
You know well, I called it bias.
(04:17):
You said that maybe wasn't theright word, but you know, that
idea, that understanding of myown, that everybody has right,
their own sort of understandingor thoughts of what it might be,
um, and I didn't want that toget muddled into the podcast,
right, um it's hard not to it'shard not to.
(04:37):
It really is.
Speaker 2 (04:38):
It really is hard not to I don't think there's
anybody out there who doesn'thave some opinion about what
death is and where it leads andwhere it doesn't lead, and
things like that.
I don't think it's possible tobe alive in the world today and
not have been both exposed to awhole bunch of opinions and not
(05:05):
not settled on one for yourselfyeah, yeah and I don't know if
that's again, I don't know ifthat's a bias, because the
question really becomes you know, can you know?
right?
That's what.
That's the challenge.
How do you know?
How can you know?
Yeah right.
What is death?
(05:27):
How can you know until you'vegone through it and then you're
not here to talk about it?
Exactly, yeah yeah, yeah um,and so you have had a set of
experiences that have led you toan opinion, an understanding.
(05:47):
I have a set of experiencesthat have led me to an opinion
or an understanding, and we usethe word opinion, I suppose, to
buffer against or juxtapose theidea of truth or fact.
Speaker 3 (06:06):
Yeah, yeah, and I was saying earlier, there are
truths in this world, absolutely, that we've come to, but I
think a lot of the things we putout there as truths are still
opinions for the time being.
(06:26):
Right, think about science.
Hopefully, it's constantlychanging and learning and
updating, but we tend to put itforward as this is the truth.
This is the facts, right, yeah,for this 20 years, until we do
it again and find something new.
Speaker 2 (06:45):
And science itself is a form of bias.
Right, yeah, for this 20 yearsuntil we do it again and find
something new.
And science itself is a form ofbias.
Right, it's a method.
It's a method that says weformulate a theory, we try to
control for factors and test forother factors.
And we try to determine if thedata supports the theory.
(07:09):
Yeah, right, and that is agreat method of trying to
distinguish.
You know, I don't know what tosay, other than you know to
distinguish truth from falsity,right, and it has become our
(07:31):
fallback position in our societyright.
It is we call ourselvesevidence-based and we fall back
to.
You know, can science provethis?
But science is a method andit's only one method, and the
question is more about what isthe appropriate method to use to
(07:56):
determine an understanding ofnon-physical experiences,
non-physical experiences,non-physical truth.
Yeah.
So methodologies are inthemselves a form of bias and
(08:18):
it's not always a good idea totrap yourself in one method,
because some methods are reallygood at Some things.
We become really good at thedouble-blind study, right, the
double-blind study where we'retesting the efficacy of a drug
as it relates certain andimpacts an illness, and we get
(08:42):
two groups of people and and weget two groups of people and
some get a placebo and some getthe drug and nobody knows who's
getting what?
the experiment administratorsdon't know.
And then the data points todetermine whether or not this
(09:14):
study was reliable.
What we found is the larger thesample, the more reliable the
study, and this is a reallypowerful method for answering
certain questions mm-hmm but itdoesn't answer questions.
Like you know, is death real?
(09:35):
Mm-hmm well.
Speaker 3 (09:37):
So it's very.
It's a qualitative issue.
Issue Right, you can't putnumbers to it.
Really it's subjective to theexperiencer.
Speaker 2 (09:55):
Well, it's just really hard to measure what's on
the other side of it right.
Yeah, yeah.
And so, on the one hand, thereare those who are quick to
dismiss anything and there areothers that are very excited
about finding other ways oflooking at it, with other forms
(10:18):
of experiment.
I think, in the end, you knowwhat we're really talking about.
What we're most concerned withis we don't want to sound like
smart alecks who think they know.
Yeah.
Although I'm very confident inwhat I've come to see as my
understanding of it.
At the same time, everybody'sexperience is going to guide
(10:41):
them elsewhere, and I think thatwas really why I wanted people
to think about their ownexperience.
I wanted people to just spendthe time and ask themselves you
know, what do I think aboutdeath, where do those thoughts
come from, and and what is myexperience of death?
Speaker 3 (10:56):
mm-hmm, because I believe that the most reliable
source of data is yourself yeahand maybe just asking yourself,
like you said, about what youthink about death and then
asking the next question is ifyou're not there already, you
know what would it mean to bepeaceful about death?
Speaker 2 (11:22):
right that's why we're here, right?
Yeah, the whole idea of us andour work and this podcast is to
try to help.
Try to help others andourselves find more peaceful
ways to look at the normalthings of life, the stuff we're
(11:42):
all going to bump into, tounderstand where we get our
opinions from right and to, inmany respects, soften our stance
on what we might insist istruth.
Speaker 3 (12:01):
Yeah, Truth, yeah, and I think you know, is the
insisting of truth uh, ladenwith fear or anger.
Because I can totallyunderstand how, over the
(12:24):
generations, over the millennia,how fear and anger can be a
driving force to uh, you know,say um, that nothing happens
after.
Speaker 2 (12:47):
I think it's important to see fear as this
enormous predisposition let'suse that word.
This is a crazy world.
We're looking outside and thewind's starting to blow and the
clouds are coming.
My thoughts go immediately tois the yard protected?
(13:09):
Do I need to bring things in?
How bad is this storm going toget?
And I automatically really amgoing to interpretations of my
environment and determiningwhether or not I should be
afraid of them and what level offear I should have.
I think when we meet new people, we can be very, very open and
(13:30):
very excited.
Won't it be great to meet newpeople?
And others are.
Oh my goodness, I'm going to bereally afraid.
I don't know these people.
These people might not like me,these people might attack me.
These people might have viewsand thoughts and practices that
cause me upset.
You know, I think that there'sthis enormous predisposition to
(13:54):
think that we need to beprotecting ourselves all the
time to think that we need to beprotecting ourselves all the
time.
And when we think about the mind, when we talk about the mind, I
think about body-mind.
I think about body-mind insimple forms, like reflexes how
our body will flinch, it willpull back, it will react, it
(14:18):
will block, it will protect, itdoes these things reflexively.
There isn't a cognitive thoughtbehind it.
It is the body protectingitself.
And then the body, I think,also has a cognitive ability to
evaluate circumstances around itand avoid and plan and do the
(14:47):
simplest things.
I think of the body-mind as areally kind of deep, automatic
protection mechanism that'sinside us.
I don't think that it needs tobe developed, I don't think it
needs to be enhanced, I thinkit's sort of automatically there
.
And so I always think about thebody.
I try to separate the mind, thehigher mind, the cognitive mind
(15:12):
, the programmed mind.
I try to separate those alittle bit from the body mind,
which is about survival, it'sabout protection.
And then I take it up a layerand I realize that I can.
I can develop the body mind, Ican train it, I can develop body
(15:34):
memory, right, Like I think ofthat when I play the guitar.
Often I'll play a song that Ihave played so many times that
if I stop and think about it,I'm going to mess it up.
Yeah, and if I just let my bodymemory go through it.
It's going to come out justfine.
Or at least it's going to comeout exactly like it did last
(15:55):
time, right.
And this body memory again, Ithink, is the kind of thing I
can develop and I can enhanceand I can use to my advantage
and I can develop habits thatreally promote my safety,
promote my health.
And these kinds of things cantake place without a lot of
(16:17):
cognitive thought, without a lotof deliberate intention.
And then, you know, I thinkthat there's a part of the body,
mind, that thinks of death andis averse to it.
And early in life, no big deal,it's not really relevant to me.
(16:38):
I'm young, only old people die.
That's a program.
That's a program that goes deepinside of us.
Only old people should die.
That's a program that can godeep inside of us and that can
become sort of a habitualreaction to death.
And I think that there's thisbody-mind aspect to us, that is,
(17:02):
you know, people will think ofthe sympathetic nervous system,
people will think about thereflex nervous system.
These are parts of us that arevery reactive and can from time
to time be wrong and result inan inappropriate response.
(17:25):
And then there's the programmedpart of us and then there's the
higher part of us, the part ofus that reflects the part of us
that seeks meaning, the part ofus that sees meaning in
everything, even when it doesn'thave meaning, and each of those
(17:47):
aspects of our mind is going tohave its own reaction to death
yeah yeah, and they're all sortof battling for first place.
Speaker 3 (18:00):
You know, there it's just a constant.
It's its own um contrast withineach other.
You know, if you think of eachas a what do they call venn
diagram or something, they'reall sort of trying to be the one
that's at the forefront.
But the higher mind I thinkthere's a an allowing that needs
(18:28):
to happen there, because thehigher mind will sit back, I
believe right, it'll sit backand not force you to do anything
.
But I think there's always thatpart that you think of, those
times where people fall and falland fall and then they hit rock
bottom, right, the body-mind,those things that we grasp onto,
(18:55):
and then the higher mind, ifyou allow it, you know, can can
sometimes bring you out of thatwell, that body mind and that
trained body mind comes forwardfast and first when fear hits
yeah right whenever thecircumstances around you are
interpreted very quickly withouta lot of processing.
Speaker 2 (19:20):
When they kick in fear, the body's systems move
into a whole other mode and they, they jump ahead.
They don't give you a chancereally to reflect, and so it's
really normal for people to goout in the yard and you know
they see something dead on theground to immediately have an
(19:43):
aversion to it.
Yeah, right.
You know, millennia of evolution, as some might say, causes us
to have that aversion because itcould carry disease, or it
could be the beginning of aproblem, or it could be, yeah
heck, it could be just bait forsomebody trying to get you.
(20:06):
I mean the point is is thatwhen it comes to death, I think
there are body-mind issues?
Speaker 3 (20:19):
that cause us to have an aversion to it.
But I find it amazing as Ilearn more and more about death,
and I'd like to look it up,maybe while we're talking here.
But if you know, god willing,we all have an easy death right,
which we know isn't going tohappen exactly for everybody,
(20:43):
but the body, the body knows.
It's like this amazing naturalprocess that happens you start
sleeping more.
That, I learned, is a certain.
I think it's like calcium orsomething.
(21:03):
Something goes up in your bloodsystem to make you sleep more,
right, and that's what I'd liketo look up.
But there's all these processesthat begin to happen to allow
the body to shut down, which isincredible really.
(21:24):
And of course, in our Westernsystem, we do everything and
anything to try to not make thathappen.
But we already went over that.
But just this natural process.
I interviewed somebody who felt,who died briefly, of not having
(21:52):
dehydration.
He had had surgery and just wasdehydrated, didn't realize, and
so he started to notice thebody shutting down and each
organ shutting down.
You can feel it, it'sfascinating.
And then the moment of well,wait a minute, my body's shut
(22:16):
down.
How am I still thinking?
Moment of well, wait a minutemy body's shut down, how am I
still thinking right?
How am I still processing?
Speaker 2 (22:24):
so anyway, um just these natural processes that
take place yeah, the body canreally facilitate its own demise
when it knows that the demiseis imminent and can make changes
.
I mean, we watched that with myfather.
We watched him physically shiftand change.
(22:48):
And science, you know sciencein terms of medical studies,
observing and noting symptoms,noting phenomena that causes
them to see patterns.
And yeah, science sees thepatterns and notes its
(23:11):
repetitive nature, that ithappens across different kinds
of people in different kinds ofplaces.
And science says, hey, there isan actual when the body knows
that it's on the verge of demise, it goes through a series of
steps and the mind goes througha series of steps.
That's we talked earlier about,Elizabeth Kubler-Ross.
And you know, when people aretold that they're going to die,
(23:38):
they go through a series ofemotional steps, a series of
emotional thresholds.
Really, again, I'm not sure howmuch of that is learned or how
much that is just body-mind andhow most of us, with our body
(24:03):
awareness, go through these sameemotional steps.
Are you looking at a list ofthose steps?
Speaker 3 (24:14):
No, I was looking up the thing.
I wanted to look up about whatgets released into the body more
.
I wanted to look up about whatgets released into the body more
and it talks about stuffadenosine and melatonin and
(24:37):
inflammatory chemicals.
Speaker 2 (24:42):
So, yeah, just those things start to rise in the body
, um, and it has its own process, right?
Yeah, so chemically the bodyshifts, mentally the body shifts
.
You know the kubler-ross stagesof denial and anger and
bargaining and depression andacceptance, and how for some
people those steps take a longtime because for some people
being told they're going to diein the near future, they go
(25:05):
through those steps in a slowerway.
And then others might gothrough it very, very quickly
when they don't have a lot oftime and they discover that
they're going to go.
And of course there are allthose people who go by accident,
right, something that wasn'tanticipated, something that
wasn't of time, and theydiscover that they're going to
go.
And of course there are allthose people who go by accident,
right, something that wasn'tanticipated, something that
wasn't an illness, somethingthat wasn't gradual.
(25:26):
Yeah, and I think that thesekinds of things are are.
Again, I turn to the body-mind.
There's so much that the bodytakes care of without any
thought, and it's amazing how wereact to it.
(25:47):
You know that unconscious mindthat's keeping the heart beating
, keeping digestion happening,keeping healing going on,
immunity, going on stuff younever think about or yet need to
think about.
The body just takes care of it,and very much.
When we interact with that partof the mind because we can you
know, we've done biofeedbackstudies we can trigger people
(26:13):
into seeing you something thatis intimidating or threatening
and, as a result, their bodyimmediately responds into the
sympathetic nervous system andthen the adrenal glands kick in,
the cortisol pumps and thepupils dilate, right.
(26:35):
You know, all these thingshappen physically, on an
unconscious level, through asomewhat aware attention that
the mind puts on it, and sothere's that whole world there.
I think that we can't ignoreand that that will impact the
way we think about death, willimpact the way we think about
(27:01):
death.
Those kinds of experiences ofaversion to death, those kinds
of experiences of physical fearof death, I think those are
going to be part of what comesup in our mind as we consider
the topic.
But setting all of those asideand looking to the programming
part, you ask somebody whathappens when you die.
(27:25):
I don't think there's anybodywho doesn't have an opinion.
I don't know that anybody'sopinion is necessarily 100%
accurate, but I think we haveassembled inside ourselves,
through our life experience andthe degree to which we've
examined the question, we haveanswers to that.
(27:47):
We have what you might call anopinion.
Yeah, what you might call anopinion?
Yeah.
So this is where we sit as wedecide to move on and talk about
death.
And what is it that we can doin our own minds to make death
less threatening, to make theidea of death more natural, to
(28:12):
make the acceptance of deathmore natural, to make the
acceptance of death of others,of ourselves?
Speaker 3 (28:21):
Palatable.
Speaker 2 (28:23):
Palatable, just less judged, I guess, is what I'm
driving at.
Right, that's very human.
This is good, this is bad, thisis right, this is wrong.
It's very easy to say when athree-year-old dies, that's
wrong.
And it's very easy to say thatwhen a 91-year-old dies, oh,
that's good, that's natural.
(28:43):
But that's just our programmingthat thinks that death and age
should be associated, should,meaning there's a right and
there's a wrong to it.
We even think that way abouthow people die.
That's a bad death.
That's a good death.
That's a way to die.
That's not a way to die.
(29:04):
We program our soldiers toaccept death in a different way
than the average person would.
We program our heroes, ourwarriors, our police, our
(29:25):
firefighters, our EMTs?
They go into dangeroussituations.
There's an element of what theydo that they're trained to
experience death, to face death,to deal with death, to protect
themselves from their own death.
There's another whole world ofprogramming that takes place in
(29:50):
certain groups of people.
Speaker 3 (29:51):
Yes, a hero's death.
Speaker 2 (29:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (29:55):
Hillary and Les offer both in-person and online
hypnosis services for clientsaround the world.
If that interests you, visitour website psalmhypnosiscom and
sign up for a free consultation, or send us an email at info at
psalmhypnosiscom.
An email at info atpsalmhypnosiscom.
Speaker 2 (30:14):
With all of that said , you know, everybody has
opinions and everybody.
Some people have strongopinions, Some people have
non-negotiable opinions.
For some people, this wholeconversation is something they
would avoid.
Yeah.
For some people they've made uptheir mind.
They really don't want todiscuss it because they really
(30:36):
don't want to change their mind,because they've found a
peaceful place within themselves.
But I think that that's rare.
I think for most people theyavoid.
They just I don't want to talkabout it, I don't want to think
about it.
Speaker 3 (30:52):
It's like politics, or you, you know it's on that
level well it's.
Speaker 2 (30:58):
It's easy to dismiss those conversations because
people will say, well, you can'tknow.
And I don't really agree withthat myself, but that's my
opinion what if you could know alittle bit?
Speaker 3 (31:11):
What if you could know a little bit right?
What if you could know or feellike you knew a little bit?
I think, and who knows, whatI'll be like on the day, in the
hour, in the minute.
I can sit here and say I'll bepeaceful, but maybe I won't.
I really hope for my case thatI would have an element of peace
(31:34):
and I think the more you thinkabout death, actually, the more
peace you receive from it.
I know people think I'm insanefor thinking about death this
often and talking about it andfor you know that's a whole
(31:57):
other podcast, but I think itdoes bring.
I think it's a habit, it's likea muscle that you need to sort
of work is the thought aboutdeath and, you know, finding
(32:19):
peace with it at some level,whatever that peace is.
Some people might find peacejust going into the ground and
becoming part of the earth andnourishing the earth, and that's
their peace the ground andbecoming part of the earth and
nourishing the earth, and that'stheir peace.
And some people find peace andlight and and whatever they
think of as God, creator,creation, and that's their peace
(32:42):
.
And I but I think no matterwhat you do in life, I think
that it's important to have apeaceful mind at death as much
as you can.
Speaker 2 (32:54):
Well, I think that's our goal with this podcast and
we should really sort of pausethis podcast here and pick up
again with those next steps,those next thoughts.
I think the reason we reallybroke this in half, the reason I
(33:14):
wanted to break it in half wasthat I don't want to attack
anybody's thoughts.
I don't want anybody feelinglike our opinions or our views
or our experiences or ourresearch should be rammed down
their throat.
And so if you're one of thosepeople that has really strong
feelings about death, you'vealready got a strong opinion
(33:36):
about it.
You already know what you know.
You don't want to think aboutit anymore.
Thank you very much.
My only suggestion is, you know,always ask yourself good
critical thinking, right, if Ithink this, where did I get that
from?
Because the truth is, there arevery, very few thoughts in your
mind that you haven't receivedfrom somebody else.
(33:57):
There are very, very fewopinions and perspectives that
are in your mind that youhaven't received from somebody
else.
We are all, in many respects,the collection of other people's
thoughts and opinions, andoften people that we really
(34:18):
respect and really really liketheir opinions end up in our
opinions quickly and easily.
So if you can examine yourselfand say you know, what do I
think of death, what's myexperience with death, what do I
think of death?
And you can say to yourself youknow, I'm not really sure that
(34:39):
I think that's a greatopen-minded approach to what
might come in our next podcast.
If you're one of those who saysno, no, no, I've already made up
my mind, according to my family, according to my religion,
according to my view.
You know, this is the way it is.
My only suggestion to you isjust ask yourself the question
(35:01):
says who told you that?
Whose opinion is that really?
Because maybe it isn't yours.
Maybe your opinion can change,maybe your opinion can expand.
Maybe there's a whole lot ofinformation out there that has
been ignored because this isjust a really taboo topic.
(35:21):
Maybe there's a lot ofinformation out there that you
might want to explore becauseyou're afraid.
So in many respects, I offerall of my respect to everyone.
You have your mind, you haveyour comfort level.
It is not my goal in life totell people the way it is.
(35:43):
It is my goal in life to behelpful, and I have found for
myself the combination of myexperience and my research and
my personal exploration hascompletely and dramatically
changed my view of death and Iwould like to share that in the
podcast that comes next.
And if you're really solid andreally rigid, then skip that one
(36:08):
, that one, because I think, asyou started to say, hillary, you
have put a lot of time, a lotof emotion, into figuring out
where you stand with death and Ifeel like I've sort of done the
(36:29):
same.
Speaker 3 (36:30):
Yeah, so the next podcast will be just sharing our
experiences and our thoughts onit, and it doesn't mean that
they're the right thoughts.
It just means that it's oursort of opinions based on our
experiences.
Speaker 2 (36:47):
And maybe in there there's some things you might
want to explore for your ownbenefit.
Speaker 3 (36:52):
Yeah, there's some really interesting things in
there.
There's some things you mightwant to explore for your own
benefit.
Yeah, there's some reallyinteresting things in there.
Speaker 2 (36:54):
And it's not that I necessarily want to promote my
opinion, but I think that I'mreally grateful for the calmness
that I have around it,especially having just gone
through what my father wentthrough, so it brings me a lot
of peace.
Speaker 3 (37:13):
Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (37:17):
So stop this one there, and then we'll pick it up
again.
Yep, see you later, thank you.
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