September 17, 2025 • 51 mins
Most of us probably know that getting enough sleep makes us feel better, but there’s so much more to it than that – especially for our teens. In this episode, Vicki and Elizabeth talk with Lisa Lewis, author of the book The Sleep Deprived Teen: Why Our Teenagers Are So Tired, and How Parents and Schools Can Help Them Thrive about why our students aren’t getting enough sleep, the dramatic effect that can have on them, and how to help them get more sleep. If you sometimes feel as though your student is sleepwalking much of the time, you’ll discover you’re not alone – and you really help your teen make some changes.
Thank you for listening!
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
Welcome to the College Parent Central podcast.
Whether your child is justbeginning the college admission
process or is already in college, this podcast is for you.
You'll find food for thoughtand information about college
and about navigating thatdelicate balance of guidance,
involvement and knowing when toget out of the way.
(00:31):
Join your hosts as they sharesupport and a celebration of the
amazing experience of having achild in college.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
Welcome to the College Parents Central Podcast.
I am your co-host, elizabethHamblett, and we are streaming
live on Facebook as well, sohopefully folks will get to
enjoy both watching andlistening to this later.
We are here with the author ofthe Sleep Deprived Teen, my
friend Lisa L Lewis.
(01:05):
I'm going to attempt to holdthis up.
I have my electronic versionand I have the real one Hard
copy.
I connected with Lisa throughsome writing groups and was so
grateful to have done so,because this book is amazing.
We are getting back to schoolat this time of year and, as
(01:25):
parents are thinking about howcan they help their students be
happy and healthy and successfulin the new year, we cannot
neglect the topic of sleep.
Nothing is more important toany of this than sleep.
A poorly rested teenager cannotbe an accomplished student or
an athlete or, you know, likemost of us, a person.
(01:48):
So with that, I'm going to askLisa to just introduce herself
to us and tell us a little bitabout how she got on this topic.
Speaker 3 (01:59):
Absolutely.
Thank you both for having mehere.
It's such a joy and it's atopic that I really am
passionate about it, asElizabeth knows.
So I am the author of the SleepDeprived Teen and thank you
both for sharing your copies andthe story of how that came
(02:20):
about.
I'll just kind of give a quickrecap, because it really stems
from my dual roles as a parentand as a parenting journalist.
So I have for quite a long timewritten about various topics
related to parenting andeducation and public health, and
obviously this topic of teensleep, you know, really
(02:41):
encompasses all of those areas.
So for me, the impetus forfocusing on this particular
topic was actually when theoldest of my two kids, my son,
was entering high school, whichwas almost 10 years ago now.
So I've been absolutelyimmersed in this topic for close
to a decade.
So it was 2015.
(03:01):
He was just starting hisfreshman year of high school and
at that point our local publichigh school started at 7.30 in
the morning.
So that was much earlier thanany of the other start times he
had ever had.
As he moved through the system,you know, elementary, middle,
high and it was really quicklyobvious that it just was too
(03:22):
early all the way around.
It was too early for him.
It was too early for him.
It was too early for our family.
I mean, I was the one, you know, driving him to school.
We'd leave the house every dayat 7.10.
And he was sitting there in thecar, but he was really quiet.
He wasn't quite like alert and,you know, awake and ready for a
full day of learning.
So that's what initiallypropelled me into this topic was
looking at start times andtrying to figure out well, why
(03:44):
did our district have thissudden, you know, move back to
730 when it came to high schoolstart times, and were we unique
in this?
And you know all that and whatI quickly found were a few
things.
The first was that, sadly, wewere not unique.
This was actually happeningacross the country.
And the second was that thiswas actually counter to what is
(04:07):
recommended.
So again, this was 2015.
The previous year, 2014, theAmerican Academy of Pediatrics
had just released a veryinfluential policy statement on
secondary school start times andthey were recommending that
middle and high schools start noearlier than 8.30 in the
morning.
So obviously, 7.30 was nowherein range, but this topic was
(04:32):
really starting to hit acritical mass because that
statement had just come out, theCDC had just released a report
looking at start times.
So this was sort of thebackdrop, you know, when I was,
you know, suddenly having it,like you know, fall on my
doorstep and, you know,realizing this was something
that's affecting me.
So I started writing about theissue because there's a body of
(04:54):
research that you know datesback to literally the mid 70s.
I started writing about thisissue, you know, in my role as a
journalist and in fact one ofthe pieces I wrote was an op-ed
that ran in the Los AngelesTimes.
It was called why SchoolsShould Start Later in the Day,
and that article, my op-ed,literally ended up being read in
(05:16):
the newspaper by one of ourCalifornia state senators and it
just so happened and his nameis Anthony Portantino and his
district is in Los Angeles.
Just so happened he also had ahigh schooler and their high
school was in the midst oftalking about this issue of
school start times.
So I had sort of tapped intothis issue at a time when it
(05:46):
really was kind of hitting acritical mass.
So, long story short, he readthat he decided he wanted to
look into the issue because hewas interested in introducing a
bill on this topic of Star Times.
He ended up doing that.
I got caught up in this wholetwo and a half year legislative
journey.
I ended up testifying at thestate capitol, sacramento, about
this and being involved in allthe communications, and it
culminated in Californiaactually passing the first state
(06:08):
law in the country settingminimum allowed start times for
middle and high schools.
So, yeah, sort of this bit of ayou know crazy backstory, but
that finally got signed into lawin 2019.
Three-year implementationwindow went into effect in 2022,
which also just so happened tobe when my book came out,
(06:29):
because I was immersed in thistopic, talking to all these
researchers and gathering allthis info, and so all of that
happened in the summer of 2022.
And, as I mentioned.
So what propelled me into thiswas the issue of school start
times, which is still an issuein so many areas, you know,
within the United States, eventoday, but also it's so much
(06:51):
broader than that, and so,really, my focus now is you know
that's an essential piece of itwhen you look at it, but even
so, overall, our teens are sleepdeprived and there are so many
ramifications and there are somany other pieces that play into
.
Speaker 2 (07:07):
So really, I focus more broadly now on this overall
topic of sleep and wellness,because it affects literally
every single thing we do youknow our first question that we
had for you when your kids arelittle, you are constantly on
top of their nap situation,right, Making sure they have a
(07:29):
consistent bedtime.
And then they get older andthey're in charge of it and you
know.
So sleep is really importantfor all of us, but why, very
specifically, is it importantfor teenagers?
Because I think sometimes weforget about that.
How?
Speaker 3 (07:44):
specifically, is it important for teenagers?
Because I think sometimes weforget about that.
Yeah, so for teens, there are acouple of unique circumstances
that you know.
We do tend to think of sleep asbeing one of those things.
When our kids are little, it'slike, please, god, just let them
go to sleep and not, you know,get up in the middle of the
night and come wake me, and notwake at 6am, you know, and then
it totally, the situationtotally flips on its head when
our kids hit those teen years.
(08:06):
So, and there are severalcontributing factors to the
situation we have today, whichis that our teens are, by and
large, the most sleep deprivedof any age group.
So that is due to severaldifferent factors.
So the first is that when youthink about how much sleep you
(08:27):
need, we always hear eight hours, you know, as being kind of
this magic, perfect number.
So that is great for us asadults.
The official sleeprecommendations from the
National Sleep Foundation foradults over age 18 is seven to
nine hours.
So you know that's a prettybroad range, but the vast
majority of adults are going tofall somewhere within that.
So eight, great, that's themidpoint, that's perfect.
(08:48):
But teens need more sleep thanadults.
Up until age 18, they shouldactually be getting eight to 10
hours of sleep.
So I think the first thing isthat that's not always as widely
known, and particularly whenyou're looking at, you know, a
teen, a junior, a senior in highschool, they look like an adult
, but they're not.
(09:09):
They do need more sleep than wedo.
So when you talk about eighthours, that's the minimum that
they're supposed to be getting.
So that's the first piece of it.
The second is that they have ashift in their sleep timing.
So, as I was just referencing,you know, when your kid is four,
you know they're, or you know,even younger, they're bouncing
out of bed at 6am.
(09:30):
They don't do that once they'reteens.
You know there's all those sortof jokes about like needing to
go in and bang the pots and pansto get them out of bed at 11 in
the morning.
It's not just because suddenlythey became lazy, it's because
there is this fundamental shiftthat happens in the timing of
their sleep schedule.
So what happens?
It's called your circadianrhythm, which has to do with,
(09:52):
essentially, the when you areawake and when you're asleep,
and it is tied to light and dark, so we are alert and awake
during the day.
We sleep at night when it'sdark, and we have sort of an
internal schedule for that.
It is heavily influenced bylight.
But what happens for teens isthat whole schedule shifts later
as they enter adolescence.
(10:15):
And this is again.
This is a physiological thing.
So the hormone melatonin issomething that our brain
actually produces and it is whatprimes us to feel sleepy.
So melatonin is released andthen that sort of leads us to
start feeling sleepy, and thenwe get to that point where we go
to bed.
Well, melatonin begins to bereleased later in the evening
(10:38):
for our teenagers, and so all ofa sudden they're not feeling
sleepy as early as they used to.
So they're not feeling sleepyuntil roughly 11 o'clock at
night and then they need eightto 10 hours of sleep.
So you just kind of do the mathand then you look at the start
times and you can see if you'vegot to be up at, say, 630.
Or even earlier.
That makes it virtuallyimpossible to get eight to 10
(11:01):
hours of sleep.
So those are sort of the bigpieces affecting teen sleep.
And then there's so much elseand I know we'll get into some
of this because that's sort ofthe backdrop, but then there's
all the other things going on inschool.
There's their homework load,there's their activities.
You know this whole issue ofover-sketching, like that's real
(11:22):
, and all that ends up taking upmore and more and more of their
wake time, cutting into thatlittle piece that's allotted for
sleep.
Speaker 4 (11:30):
Wow, you know, I think you've just answered.
You know what's often been inmy mind, and I know other people
who say well, why don't theteenagers just go to bed earlier
?
Shouldn't we just enforce anearlier bedtime?
And if they've got to be atschool at 7.30 and we know they
(11:51):
need sleep, we say 9 o'clock,lights out, that's it, you're
done.
So now that makes more sense.
And you just mentioned a lot ofother factors.
So I'm curious.
I want to follow up on onethat's sort of my thorn in my
side a lot of the time, andthat's technology.
So how does now technology andall of the things that teens are
(12:17):
involved in, how does thatfactor into all of this?
Speaker 3 (12:23):
Yes, yeah, great question, and it does.
The short answer is yes, itdoes factor in.
This relates back to what I wasjust talking about the light
and dark and the release ofmelatonin.
So tech is here to stay.
Obviously, it's not like we canjust we can delay when our kids
get phones, but they're onlineto do their school assignments
(12:43):
too.
I mean, being online is such anintegral part of their social
world.
The same way, you know, when Iwas in high school, I was on the
telephone for hours.
Well, now that's been replaced,you know.
So tech is here to stay.
It has a valid role, but itdoes absolutely have the ability
to impact their sleep.
So there are a few differentways that that happens.
The first is simply timedisplacement.
(13:07):
So if you are online until lateat night, at some point you are
literally cutting into hourswhen you could have been
sleeping instead.
So that's the first piece.
The second piece is that sooften, what our teens and we as
adults are doing online isstimulating and engaging.
So you know, for us, maybewe're watching, you know, a
(13:28):
movie or something, Maybe we'rechecking our work email, so our
brain is still in work mode.
You know, for our kids, theycould be playing a video game
that's fast paced and energetic,they could be involved in some
kind of an emotional you knowchat with their friends about,
you know the latest relationshipissue that's come up, or
whatever.
So all that is keeping youawake and alert.
(13:50):
And then the last piece of it isthe blue light aspect.
So this gets back to the lightpiece I was talking about
earlier.
Blue light is part of theoverall spectrum of light and,
in fact, the biggest source ofblue light for us is the sun,
and when we're out in the dayand we get blue light that helps
cue us to feel alert.
Well, these devices that we'reusing, these backlit devices,
(14:13):
they actually emit blue light.
It's just part of the way thatyou know they've been
constructed with the LEDs andthat blue light actually primes
us to feel alert.
So you are like giving yourselfthese extra doses of blue light
in the evening when you're onyour devices, and that can, in
turn, delay the release ofmelatonin, meaning you're not
(14:33):
going to feel sleepy until later.
So there's all three of theseways that tech can potentially
impact sleep.
Speaker 4 (14:42):
So I know I'm jumping ahead a little bit.
I know one of the things we'rehoping to talk about, perhaps a
little later, is somesuggestions for parents and what
they can do.
But is it realistic to expectteens to put their devices aside
earlier?
In other words, to put theirdevices aside earlier, in other
(15:02):
words, you're not really sleepyuntil later.
But let's not add this factorand, by a little bit earlier,
put the device away.
Speaker 3 (15:11):
Yes, and in fact that is a best practice.
The American Academy ofPediatrics does recommend
getting off the tech devices anhour before bedtime.
So again, that is the bestpractice.
So that is something maybe towork toward.
So, again, that is the bestpractice, so that is something
maybe to work toward, because,again, just as with these
recommendations, we know whatthe official recommendation is
and then we know what reality is, and so I feel like, you know,
(15:34):
you may not ever get to perfect,but you can at least take steps
to get closer.
So, an hour before bedtime,that would be ideal.
Even if you can't do that,though, work towards better than
what you have now.
Maybe it's a half hour beforebedtime.
But getting off of those devicesrather than staying online, you
know, go, go, go, go, go andjust turn it off and expect that
(15:56):
you can just turn your brainoff the same way and just fall
asleep.
Flip a switch.
Yeah, exactly, yeah, our braindoes not have an off switch the
way that, you know, our devicesdo.
So that's the best practice isto get off devices an hour
before bedtime Along those lines, ideally, not keeping them in
the bedrooms overnight.
So, you know, have a centralcharging station.
(16:19):
The other thing that we can doas parents is help model these
behaviors, because these arebest practices that apply for
all users of tech.
So you know, if we've set ahouse rule yeah, no devices in
the bedrooms overnight.
We're just going to use analarm clock rather than the
alarm function on your phone Imean, those still exist out
there Then our devices need tobe charging in the kitchen as
(16:41):
well and we need to not besitting there on our laptops in
bed.
So it is also like having thisbe a family.
You know, set of tech rulesideally not just for teens, and
certainly, if you haven't hadthese kind of rules in place,
showing that you are now goingto be part of it and kind of
working towards it and gettingyour teens buy-in is also a
(17:04):
pretty essential piece.
Speaker 2 (17:07):
Yeah, because they can smell hypocrisy miles away,
can't they?
Speaker 3 (17:11):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (17:12):
Yeah, absolutely Do as I say, not as I do.
Their BS detectors are quitegood.
So obviously just having acrabby teenager in your house is
just not fun in general andit's not good for your mental
health.
But let's talk more deeplyabout you know, just aside from
being tired, you know what isthe link between sleep and
(17:34):
mental health, sleep and riskybehaviors and something I think
a lot of parents are worriedabout sleep and grades.
Speaker 3 (17:42):
Yeah, absolutely Well , sleep affects literally
everything we do.
I always tell people there'snot one single thing that you do
better as a result of beingsleep deprived.
So let me just kind of give aquick overview, because there's
so much to say about all ofthose topics.
Speaker 1 (17:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (18:00):
But first looking at learning, because obviously
that's like the whole point ofwhy our kids are in school all
day, right?
So when you are sleep deprived,it actually affects your
ability to learn and retaininformation.
So and there are threedifferent steps in the process
where it's, you know,particularly has an effect.
The first is when you areacquiring that new information.
(18:22):
So you're sitting in class, andif you're not really awake and
alert, you know it's not reallypenetrating to the same degree.
That's the same, by the way,you know, if you're at home and
you're reading like we've allhad that experience you're
trying to read something, you'retired and you realize you've
just read the same page likefour times and nothing has sunk
in right.
So that's the first step.
(18:42):
The second, though, isretaining that information,
because sleep is when our brainsare processing and synthesizing
all of that information we'vetaken in that day and moving it
from short-term into long-termstorage in terms of memory.
So all that is such a criticalpiece of learning is what
(19:03):
happens with that informationand how you retain it.
That's what's happeningovernight when we're sleeping.
And then the third piece iswhen you're trying to retrieve
that information, because ifyou're sleep deprived, just your
cognitive functioning is slowerand being able to retrieve that
information is much slower andmuch more difficult.
So that's the first piece.
So absolutely there's an impacton learning.
(19:26):
The other big piece, though Imean there's so many, but
another very large piece is themental health piece, and again,
so many different ways thatbeing sleep deprived affects
this.
But to start, it's basicallyyour emotional resiliency is
restored when you've had a goodnight's sleep.
(19:47):
You have an emotional buffer,you are ready to greet the day.
It's a key part of.
There's a term flourishing,which really has to do with
thriving, and that has to dowith not just things like having
a sense of purpose, but feelingengaged in your daily
activities and in yourinteractions with others and
(20:09):
just having a positive outlook.
And so getting a good night'ssleep is a key piece of that,
because you wake when you've hada good night's sleep and you
feel good when you open youreyes, you know, as opposed to
when you wake and you haven'thad a good night's sleep, like
you know, at the second you openyour eyes and it just makes
everything that much moredifficult.
You know, throughout the day,if you have mental health issues
(20:33):
like depression, like anxiety,et cetera.
Being sleep deprivedexacerbates them.
So you know, again, if you areprone to that let's say there's
a genetic component of familyhistory you go in, maybe to a
medical professional.
That's one of the very firstquestions they're going to ask
is how is your sleep?
Are you getting enough sleep?
Because if you're not, that'sthe first piece they're going to
(20:56):
want to address.
That's like the low hangingfruit.
You know it can be verystraightforward.
If you're regularly gettingfive hours of sleep, well,
they're going to work with youon trying to increase that to
get to, you know, being withinthe range before they're going
to start looking, you know,generally speaking, at other
possible causes, because sleepabsolutely is part of that.
(21:17):
And then you'd asked about riskybehaviors.
So again, sleep affects, andthis is particularly acute with
teenagers.
When you haven't gotten enoughsleep you are more prone to
risky behaviors, impulsivedecision-making, particularly as
a teen, because your prefrontalcortex is not going to be
(21:39):
operating as efficiently and italready is not operating as
efficiently in our teens becausetheir brain is in the midst of
this multi-year process of brainremodeling and the part that
revs up first is the limbicsystem, which is responsible for
sensation seeking and all thatkind of stuff, whereas the
(21:59):
prefrontal cortex, which is kindof the breaking part of the
system, does not go through thatremodeling until later on, and
so they don't even have a strongof a prefrontal cortex
functioning to begin with, andthen, when you're sleep deprived
, it exacerbates that.
Speaker 4 (22:16):
So it's just so overwhelming.
Well, I'm processing and as Iread the book, I've already most
, and maybe because I have agrandson who's an athlete and
(22:47):
does I mean, he's still youngbut he's several sports and he's
quite good at it was some ofthe things that you talked about
, some of the statistics eventhat you shared, about how
dramatically getting enoughsleep can improve athletic
performance, and it seems asthough for a lot of teenagers
(23:11):
who are very active athletes,this is one of the strongest
arguments for getting sleep.
Can you talk a little bit aboutsleep and athletics?
Speaker 3 (23:20):
Yes, yes, and absolutely it is to your point,
possibly the way in when you'retrying to kind of have these
conversations with your kid,because if they're an athlete,
maybe this is the piece that'sreally going to resonate, the
message being that sleep is acompetitive advantage.
So there is a study actuallythat really was sort of the
(23:42):
seminal study, for this was doneback in 2011 at Stanford.
A researcher there worked withthe Stanford men's basketball
team who they were not gettingenough sleep.
They were averaging less thanseven hours of sleep.
So she had them go through thisprocess of being in bed for at
least 10 hours a night as a wayto hopefully extend their actual
(24:03):
sleep time, because you can'tput someone to bed and say, okay
, sleep.
I mean, obviously it doesn'twork that way, but getting them
to prioritize it by spendingmore time in bed.
And, lo and behold, it worked.
They were getting less thanseven hours After this, they
were getting about eight and ahalf hours of sleep.
But what was so impressive waswhat that meant in terms of
their performance.
So all of a sudden, they wereposting a 9% increase in free
(24:28):
throws, a 9% increase in threepoint shots and they had faster
sprint times.
So it's like, all of a sudden,like this wasn't because they
were changing their training, itwas just because they were
getting more sleep.
So and so this is now a messagethat is pretty widely understood
.
And when you look at pro teams,college teams, they often have
(24:53):
sleep consultants.
They work with, you know,olympic athletes.
Many of them have come out verypublicly to talk about how
important sleep is to theirperformance.
So, absolutely so.
When you get enough sleep, itimproves your performance
performance.
So, absolutely so.
When you get enough sleep, itimproves your performance.
On the flip side, when youdon't get enough sleep, it
increases your risk for injuries, because it affects things like
coordination and response time.
(25:14):
And then if you are injured, ifyou're not getting enough sleep
, it is likely going to lengthenyour recovery time.
Speaker 4 (25:26):
There you have it.
Yeah, I mean, there are a lotof teenagers who are not
athletes, so there perhaps needto be some other arguments, but
for so many that's just it'sdramatic.
Speaker 3 (25:37):
Oh, absolutely Absolutely.
And sleep also is primarilywhen growth hormone is released.
So that's another argument thatoften, you know, really cause
people, you know teens, to situp and take notice there any
(26:03):
somewhat persuasive argumentsthat you think parents should be
using while their kids are inhigh school?
Speaker 2 (26:06):
you know, to begin with you know about this because
students feel the need, youknow, in their teenage years to
be in control of things right.
And I think in some communitiesthere is that.
You know grind culture.
You know where it's a point ofpride to say well, you know
these kids in AP classes who aregetting loads and loads of work
(26:29):
and I'm coming in on five hoursand so how to persuade them.
You know they can still lieabout it at school if they want
right.
Speaker 3 (26:38):
Yeah, no, it's tricky because it is multifactorial,
as you mentioned, andparticularly when you are in a
high-achieving environment,there are these other factors
that are contributing thehomework load, the
overscheduling of activities andthe perceived need to do all of
this in order to get into theright school, because it's going
(27:00):
to determine your future, andall that in order to get into
the right school, because it'sgoing to determine your future
and all that.
And it's tricky because itneeds to be addressed at so many
different levels.
There's the kids themselves, asyou mentioned.
It's sort of a point of pride.
It's sort of this kind ofhumble bragging Well, I only got
, you know, six hours of sleep.
Oh, well, I only got five hoursof sleep, so they've got that.
Sometimes it's coming from thefamily.
(27:21):
You know this need to sort ofperceived need to succeed
academically in order to getinto the right school.
Sometimes it's, you know, bakedinto the school itself, which
may have responded to, you know,the sort of push from parents
because they want to be highachieving school.
So it is coming from all thesedifferent places.
But at the same time, there's apoint of diminishing returns,
(27:45):
and I think that's what's soimportant to keep in mind.
One of the ways to sort of takea look at you know whether you
are indeed overscheduled is toliterally map out how many
waking hours you have, you know,during a typical day and how
those are currently beingallocated.
(28:05):
So you've got a set number ofhours that you're in school, but
then you have your hours forhomework for each class and it
may vary because the advancedlevel classes are often going to
have more homework.
Then there's all theextracurriculars and maybe it's
stuff they're doing in schoollike band and speech and debate,
or what have student governmentcould also be club sports
they're doing outside of school.
Maybe they also have a job.
(28:27):
They also need time to be ableto sit down and eat meals and
catch their breath and showerand things like that.
So you need to like factor inall that.
And if you do all that and thenyou see that there's not even
an eight to 10 hour window leftin the schedule, then it's
making it pretty hard for themto get you know, enough sleep
(28:47):
and it's also maybe a sign thatit's time to reevaluate.
And what that means is going todiffer, obviously you know in
each case, but when you thinkabout it we've already set the
limit somewhere.
Like people will brag aboutgetting five hours, they're not.
People will brag about gettingfive hours.
They're not going to brag aboutgetting two hours of sleep,
right.
Like, at some point you knowthere's a limit.
(29:12):
And it's the same with APclasses.
Even somebody who's overloadedtheir schedule with them At some
point there's a limit.
They're not taking, excuse me,literally every single AP class
that the school offers.
Like there is some limit theyhave set in their mind.
Same with sports Even if you'rea multi-sport athlete, you are
not literally participating inevery single sport that the
school offers.
You have set that limitsomewhere and I guess maybe my
advice would be to look at whereyou've set that limit and
(29:35):
perhaps recalibrate a bitno-transcript.
Speaker 4 (30:08):
That mathematical approach of saying this many
hours in a week or this manyhours in a day and then actually
looking at it, it does stareyou right in the face.
It's it's good, absolutely,yeah, go ahead.
Does stare you right in theface.
It's it's good and it'sabsolutely yeah, go ahead.
Speaker 3 (30:25):
Oh, I was just saying it sounds like what the big
piece that you're you'rementioning is the time
management piece, which is hugeand is something that, as you
know, kids leave home.
They are suddenly much moreresponsible for that and so
often that can use fine tuning,um.
But that's also something whenour kids are still at home and
they are in middle school andhigh school, we are helping,
particularly in the youngerteens.
(30:46):
Helping them learn those skills, helping them figure out.
You don't wait until the nightbefore something's due to
suddenly start on it.
So developing those skills issomething ideally they're doing
all the way through thosesecondary school years.
I assume it needs to bestarting earlier too, but the
point is like we are moreinvolved when they're at home.
(31:09):
But hopefully we're helpingthem develop those skills
because that's going to helpeliminate those late nights in
high school, like, oh God, Ididn't start and it's due, but
also ideally equip them sothey're able to take that with
them when they do go off tocollege.
Speaker 4 (31:19):
It strikes me that maybe college applications you
know as students are writingtheir admissions essays and all
they should include how manyhours of sleep do you get?
And maybe it boosts youradmission a little bit if you
say I get eight hours sleep,because then you know you're
going to have a student who'sgoing to be their sharpest.
(31:43):
Probably the admissionsofficers would not listen to my
argument, but it struck me asyou were talking, yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:53):
Well, and I like that idea.
It would be also great as a wayof saying to students, like,
when you come here, we expectyou to take care of yourself.
Because you know, this is apodcast for parents of current
college students as well, andyou know, when I help my college
students with their schedules,they have meetings at 10 o'clock
(32:14):
at night.
I mean, I am, I'm brushing myteeth at 10.
And so I think the nature ofcollege life is not necessarily
conducive to a good sleepschedule, and obviously on
weekends sometimes students say,well, I'll catch up on the
weekend, you know, and thenthere are activities on the
(32:37):
weekends and it doesn't reallyhappen.
Speaker 1 (32:40):
So you know, is there anything?
Speaker 4 (32:42):
Can I follow up on that question too?
What about that idea of sort ofbanking your sleep time on the
weekend?
Speaker 2 (32:51):
Yeah, I hear that all the time.
Speaker 4 (32:54):
How helpful is that and how effective is that to say
, well, yeah, I can only sleepon the weekend.
Speaker 3 (33:04):
Yeah, so it does.
I'm.
I'm positive because there's acouple.
There's sort of two differentpieces over here.
One is banking, which isgetting enough sleep ahead of
time.
Okay that it's in the bankbefore you're sleep deprived,
and that actually has been shownto be a good strategy.
So if you know you're going tohave some nights like that
(33:26):
coming up, being reallyintentional about starting off,
you know, in as good a positionas you can, so that's sort of
that concept of sleep banking.
The type of long weekend sleepthat you're referring to, though
, often is catch up sleep.
It's happening after the fact,and so that's a little bit
(33:46):
different, because you can neverreally truly catch up, so
you're always a little bitbehind.
So let's say that you havebuilt up this sleep deficit over
the course of the week, so youhave this accumulation of sleep
debt, because every night youknow let's say you know during
the week you're not gettingenough sleep You've got you end
up with a sleep debt of 10 hours.
(34:06):
Well, then you still need to begetting.
Let's just say, even if the kidis over 18 in college, let's say
they're supposed to be gettingeight hours.
Well, they need to then add onan additional five hours on each
of those nights in order toreally make it up, and so that
actually probably is nothappening.
Even if they're sleeping intill 11 or noon, and
(34:28):
particularly if they not so muchprobably for college but
certainly for adults going towork.
For high schoolers going toschool, you generally have, you
know, an earlier start time, Iwould say, than college students
.
That's probably like one ofthose best silver linings of
colleges you don't have to takeclasses at 730 in the morning.
But it makes it that muchharder to fall asleep at sort of
(34:48):
a reasonable hour on Sundaynight because you've got to get
up whatever time you have to getup on Monday, and so you may
not be setting yourself up forgood sleep habits for the
following week either.
Speaker 4 (34:59):
Yeah, and the other factor and I don't know whether
it does affect it or not mycollege students have very
irregular schedules.
So they may have an 8.30 classon Monday and Wednesday, but no
classes until 11 on Tuesday andThursday.
(35:20):
So they get up early and thenthe next day they sleep late.
How does that factor?
Speaker 3 (35:27):
in.
Yeah, no, you're right, andthat is often the reality,
especially during the collegeyears.
No-transcript.
(35:54):
However, if you can be moreconsistent, it's going to help
avoid these kind of issues wewere just talking about.
So, I mean, some variation isOK, but the more wildly your
sleep schedule is swinging, themore you are apt to have this
concept of what they call socialjet lag swinging, the more you
are apt to have this concept ofwhat they call social jet lag,
(36:17):
because it is like jet lag, Imean trying to like get yourself
on.
You know the schedule.
So so, yeah, that that canactually be an issue.
And and and, frankly, inaddition to getting enough sleep
, the official recommendations,all the sleep groups that are
out there, are that consistencyof sleep is also so important,
and this is not going toresonate so much, probably, with
(36:37):
college students, but for us asadults, it affects it literally
affects your longevity, I mean,it affects your lifespan.
It affects things likecardiovascular risk.
I mean there's so manylong-term effects of getting
inconsistent sleep on a chronicbasis.
Speaker 4 (36:55):
So I have another question based on my observation
of my college students and evenmy memory of being in college
although that was a few yearsago, but some things don't
change and that is as much aswhen they were toddlers, we
could never get them to take anap.
My college students love naps,and so they can't wait until
(37:19):
they can go back to their roomand take a nap.
Is that a good thing?
Are they catching up a littlebit on some sleep, or is that
going to put them off cycle forgetting to sleep on time?
Speaker 3 (37:36):
Yeah, no, naps are.
Naps can be great.
There's just sort of a coupleof kind of caveats you want to
keep in mind If you're going totake a nap.
Generally speaking, you don'twant to nap too late in the day,
because that is going topotentially make it harder to
fall asleep at the right time atnight.
(37:58):
Similarly, you don't want tonap too long, so, generally,
about 45 minutes or so would bethe recommendation, and taking a
nap when you're feeling likeyou need one is fine, again, as
long as you're sort of, you know, trying to adhere to those
guidelines.
The thing to keep in mind,though, is that a nap is
basically a compensatorystrategy.
(38:19):
Often, it's because you're notgetting enough sleep at night,
so, ideally, you don't want tofall into this habit of
regularly needing a nap.
You know getting less sleep atnight and needing a nap to be
able to make that up, becausethat, really, then, is a sign
that that's.
You know, if you were to begetting more sleep at night, it
might not be that same essentialnecessity to have a nap just to
(38:42):
be able to get through the day.
Speaker 4 (38:46):
Naps are great.
They get us get a bunch of usthrough a lot of things.
Speaker 3 (38:52):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, there is one other caveatwhich you know I'm sure we've
all experienced that if you naptoo long, you also fall into a
deeper sleep, and then you'regroggy, so you don't wake up
feeling refreshed.
Speaker 4 (39:06):
So we have to learn how to nap appropriately and
then and then they're probablyokay, yeah set a timer.
Speaker 2 (39:13):
You know don't go longer than 45 minutes and
ideally if it's already evening,like probably taking a nap is
not a great idea, yeah just goto bed earlier well, yeah, yeah,
I mean, my students describe tome, you know, getting fatigued
because something's due the nextday and then trying to take a
nap at one o'clock in themorning and sleeping through
whatever alarm they've set.
Speaker 3 (39:35):
So it's yeah, yeah, yeah, because they needed more
than a nap at that point.
They needed an actual longsleep, yeah that's a classic
story.
Speaker 4 (39:45):
yeah, slept through my alarm, so you've talked a lot
about things that we can do athome, you know, in terms of
modeling, especially withtechnology and devices and all
of that, or I guess maybe how tostart this conversation with
their students, because it doessound as though you know, in
(40:16):
order to put some of thestrategies you've talked about
into place.
You've got to be explicit, buthow do you get the conversation
about sleep started?
Speaker 3 (40:28):
Yeah, no, that's a good question.
I think it depends.
It depends on the scenario.
(40:51):
But oftentimes, you know, I'vehad people ask me well, how do
you convince kids that they'retired?
It's like, well, you know ifyou're tired, I mean they're
aware of it, you know they maybe trying to power through it,
but it's not like you don'tnotice.
You know, when you wake uptired and you're draggy and all
that.
So I don't think it's so muchthat, as much as it is probably
trying to ask questions, youknow, as opposed to coming and
saying, hey, I've got this newpolicy for our family, like
that's not going to go over sowell, you know, trying to sort
of figure out, let's say, youknow, as a scenario you've got
(41:16):
and I'm assuming you're talkingabout a kid who's still at home,
for you know purpose of thisconversation.
So let's say you've got a kidwho you know knows that they
really need to be in bed by 1030because of what time they have
to get up.
But they're regularly not doingthat, Asking them, you know, if
it's not already overtlyobvious, like, well, what's
getting in the way of you know,you being able to get to sleep
(41:39):
on time.
And I say overtly obviousbecause, let's say, they're not
getting home from sportspractice till 10 o'clock, like
well it's pretty obvious that'sgoing to be a major contributing
factor.
But there may be other thingsgoing on.
So you know asking questions,but there may be other things
going on.
So you know asking questions,you know being curious, you know
which.
Obviously that's sort of justgenerally as parenting advice
tends to work better than comingin and you know telling them
(42:00):
some great solutions becausethey don't really think of those
as being helpful.
So asking those kind ofquestions, like essentially
trying to help with them figureout what is it that's kind of
the pain point here that'smaking it so hard.
You know, because I know, youknow you want you're trying to
get to bed at 11, it just seemslike there's a 1030.
(42:20):
And there's always these thingsthat are coming up.
You know what are some of thethings you know we can do to
help so that it's probablycoming in with more that helpful
attitude and trying to seek tobe their partner in it as
opposed to, you know,adversarial, like I told you,
you were supposed to be in bedand you know it's like why isn't
it happening and what can we doto kind of address those
contributing causes?
(42:41):
So that's sort of the broadadvice, because the reasons why
it can vary, you know, it can bethe sports, it can be the
homework load maybe they aretaking too heavy of a homework
load.
It can be time managementskills, as you alluded to before
.
You know in terms of planningand when you're getting started
on assignments, it can be toomany things that they're
scheduled to do.
(43:01):
You know late night practices,you know all that stuff.
So it's trying to figure outwhat is actually most relevant
in your kid's particularsituation and then from there
you can figure out what are someways to help address those.
Speaker 4 (43:14):
Yeah, I think one of the really positive things that
I take out of this conversation,and a lot of what you've shared
, is that there really are waysto strategize and to be
proactive.
We know we're tired, and Ithink that's probably true of a
(43:36):
lot of parents as well.
It's not just teenagers, it'snot just kids.
We know we're tired, we knowour kids are tired they dragged
school, whatever but we don'tthink we can do anything about
it.
And so, you know, I really likehaving some of those ideas and
strategies, ways to talk aboutit and things to do.
(43:59):
I guess, oh, go ahead, go ahead.
Well, I was going to say Iguess you know we could keep
going, but one of the otherpieces in terms of doing
something about it, I wonder,just before we finish up, if you
could talk a little bit aboutthis movement that it seems to
(44:19):
be happening to try to makeschools start later.
You were able to proactivelyhelp that to happen, but if
parents are, you know, in acommunity and the school starts
at 7.15 or 7.30, what are someways that they can start to
(44:41):
maybe begin to advocate and getthat conversation started
locally in their own communities?
Speaker 3 (44:55):
in their own communities.
Yeah, absolutely.
I think it starts with having acommon foundation of knowledge,
so that you know all the kindof things we're talking about
here, how much sleep kids reallyneed to be getting, the fact
that they do have this circadianrhythm shift, so it's not just
that they're being lazy, youknow, etc.
So sharing this kind ofinformation is quite literally,
the best place to start.
You know, I am absolutely aproponent of addressing start
(45:19):
times at the state level,because you know you could have
the broadest impact.
That's not to say that that'sthe only way this can happen.
However, it has happened and itcontinues to happen in
districts around the country assmall as a single high school or
as large as an entire city.
I mean, up until California'slaw, it had never been done at
(45:41):
the statewide level before interms of setting the minimum
allowed start times.
Meanwhile, it has happened, youknow, on a grassroots level, in
so many communities and I sayso many because I can't quantify
it because there's no centraldatabase of districts that have
changed their start times, but Imean it's hundreds at least and
(46:01):
so that does continue to be avery effective way to do it.
So, in terms of sharinginformation.
That can start with aschool-wide meeting.
That can start with partneringwith the PTA.
In fact, the California StatePTA was one of the co-sponsors
of the bill in California, theother co-sponsor being Start
(46:22):
School Later, which is anonprofit that advocates for
this.
You can also look at starting alocal chapter of Start School
Later, because that is aterrific treasure trove of
resources from other people whohave done this in their
communities.
But, you know, partnering withthe PTA, hold a meeting.
Bring in a local pediatricianor sleep specialist to talk
(46:44):
about sleep.
Bring in somebody who you knowI go in and speak regularly to
schools.
I speak to parents about all ofthis.
You know, oftentimes when I'mgoing in, they may be more
broadly interested because, as Imentioned at the beginning of
our conversation, school starttimes are such an essential
(47:04):
piece of the equation, but thatis, you know, not at all the
entire picture and so many timesthere are schools where they
may not have super, super earlystart times and yet there are
still issues of sleep, uh,deprivation because of
everything else we've beentalking about the overscheduling
, the academic expectations, etc.
Etc.
So, um, so I say so as I wassaying.
(47:27):
So I think it starts withtrying to hold those sort of
conversations, getting together,you know, with other
like-minded parents, havingconversations with the school
administrators.
Often you will find that ifthey are aware of the research,
they understand that it doeshave a direct impact on grades,
on attendance rates, on mentalhealth, on all these other
aspects.
(47:47):
So starting to have thatconversation, figuring out who
your allies are locally andbuilding from there.
Speaker 4 (47:54):
There's hope.
Speaker 2 (47:58):
Well, and obviously to get that information,
everybody should read Lisa'sbook.
Speaker 4 (48:02):
Well, that's the best place to start, and make it a
community read.
Speaker 2 (48:07):
Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 3 (48:09):
Well, and to your point, I mean, I actually, when
I was writing the book, Iliterally wrote the book that I
wished that I had had when I wasjust in working on this journey
.
So, you know, starting off withthat foundational information,
giving you know that overview ofall the various ramifications,
from learning to mental health,to drowsy driving, to sports,
(48:29):
and then, like a third of thebook is all about specific
strategies.
So there are some specific tostart times, but there's also,
you know, you know, I'm sure,having read the book as well, as
you both have, um, you know, awhole chapter on technology and
on, you know, specific kinds ofthings you can do during the day
to help prepare you for a goodnight's sleep.
(48:50):
You know nighttime strategies,wind down routines.
So so I do get into all of thatand and as you can see, it's a
topic I'm passionate about and,just you know, could go on and
on.
Speaker 4 (49:00):
So again, just to remind people the book is the
Sleep Deprived Teen, why OurTeenagers Are so Tired and how
Parents and Schools Can Helpthem Thrive.
By Lisa L Lewis.
Lisa, if people would like tofollow up, if they would like to
learn more about the book,learn more about you, reach out,
(49:22):
are there ways that they can dothat?
Speaker 3 (49:26):
Yeah, absolutely Best way would be through my website
.
My email address is on thereand it's wwwlisallewiscom.
Speaker 4 (49:37):
Okay, so they go there and they can find out more
about the book and more abouteverything and reach out to you
if they need to.
Speaker 3 (49:46):
Absolutely.
Yeah, I'm always happy to chatwith people that way.
Speaker 4 (49:51):
Well, we are both.
Elizabeth is nodding her headand I'm speaking for both of us
to say we're both reallygrateful that you took time to
spend with us and have thisconversation.
It is such an important topicfor teenagers and college
students and probably theirtired parents as well, so it's
(50:14):
good for all of us.
So thank you so much and wewill put some of this
information in the show notes ofthe podcast.
And if you get back and forth,if you are listening to the
podcast, that's wonderful.
But if you know other peoplewho do not listen to the podcast
(50:35):
but maybe do YouTube, elizabeth, where do they look on YouTube
there?
Speaker 2 (50:40):
we go Sorry, yeah, it'll be on YouTube.
Speaker 4 (50:44):
And how do they find it on YouTube?
Speaker 2 (50:46):
They just find my website, my page.
There is the LD Advisorywebpage and you'll find it there
.
Speaker 4 (50:53):
And we will put those in the show notes too.
So thank you so much to ourlisteners for being here, our
viewers for watching us and LisaLewis for sharing your
information with us.
Speaker 3 (51:09):
Absolutely.
Thank you both so much.
Really love talking to youabout this.
Speaker 4 (51:13):
Okay, thanks.
Welcome to the College Parent Central podcast.
Whether your child is justbeginning the college admission
process or is already in college, this podcast is for you.
You'll find food for thoughtand information about college
and about navigating thatdelicate balance of guidance,
involvement and knowing when toget out of the way.
(00:31):
Join your hosts as they sharesupport and a celebration of the
amazing experience of having achild in college.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
Welcome to the College Parents Central Podcast.
I am your co-host, elizabethHamblett, and we are streaming
live on Facebook as well, sohopefully folks will get to
enjoy both watching andlistening to this later.
We are here with the author ofthe Sleep Deprived Teen, my
friend Lisa L Lewis.
(01:05):
I'm going to attempt to holdthis up.
I have my electronic versionand I have the real one Hard
copy.
I connected with Lisa throughsome writing groups and was so
grateful to have done so,because this book is amazing.
We are getting back to schoolat this time of year and, as
(01:25):
parents are thinking about howcan they help their students be
happy and healthy and successfulin the new year, we cannot
neglect the topic of sleep.
Nothing is more important toany of this than sleep.
A poorly rested teenager cannotbe an accomplished student or
an athlete or, you know, likemost of us, a person.
(01:48):
So with that, I'm going to askLisa to just introduce herself
to us and tell us a little bitabout how she got on this topic.
Speaker 3 (01:59):
Absolutely.
Thank you both for having mehere.
It's such a joy and it's atopic that I really am
passionate about it, asElizabeth knows.
So I am the author of the SleepDeprived Teen and thank you
both for sharing your copies andthe story of how that came
(02:20):
about.
I'll just kind of give a quickrecap, because it really stems
from my dual roles as a parentand as a parenting journalist.
So I have for quite a long timewritten about various topics
related to parenting andeducation and public health, and
obviously this topic of teensleep, you know, really
(02:41):
encompasses all of those areas.
So for me, the impetus forfocusing on this particular
topic was actually when theoldest of my two kids, my son,
was entering high school, whichwas almost 10 years ago now.
So I've been absolutelyimmersed in this topic for close
to a decade.
So it was 2015.
(03:01):
He was just starting hisfreshman year of high school and
at that point our local publichigh school started at 7.30 in
the morning.
So that was much earlier thanany of the other start times he
had ever had.
As he moved through the system,you know, elementary, middle,
high and it was really quicklyobvious that it just was too
(03:22):
early all the way around.
It was too early for him.
It was too early for him.
It was too early for our family.
I mean, I was the one, you know, driving him to school.
We'd leave the house every dayat 7.10.
And he was sitting there in thecar, but he was really quiet.
He wasn't quite like alert and,you know, awake and ready for a
full day of learning.
So that's what initiallypropelled me into this topic was
looking at start times andtrying to figure out well, why
(03:44):
did our district have thissudden, you know, move back to
730 when it came to high schoolstart times, and were we unique
in this?
And you know all that and whatI quickly found were a few
things.
The first was that, sadly, wewere not unique.
This was actually happeningacross the country.
And the second was that thiswas actually counter to what is
(04:07):
recommended.
So again, this was 2015.
The previous year, 2014, theAmerican Academy of Pediatrics
had just released a veryinfluential policy statement on
secondary school start times andthey were recommending that
middle and high schools start noearlier than 8.30 in the
morning.
So obviously, 7.30 was nowherein range, but this topic was
(04:32):
really starting to hit acritical mass because that
statement had just come out, theCDC had just released a report
looking at start times.
So this was sort of thebackdrop, you know, when I was,
you know, suddenly having it,like you know, fall on my
doorstep and, you know,realizing this was something
that's affecting me.
So I started writing about theissue because there's a body of
(04:54):
research that you know datesback to literally the mid 70s.
I started writing about thisissue, you know, in my role as a
journalist and in fact one ofthe pieces I wrote was an op-ed
that ran in the Los AngelesTimes.
It was called why SchoolsShould Start Later in the Day,
and that article, my op-ed,literally ended up being read in
(05:16):
the newspaper by one of ourCalifornia state senators and it
just so happened and his nameis Anthony Portantino and his
district is in Los Angeles.
Just so happened he also had ahigh schooler and their high
school was in the midst oftalking about this issue of
school start times.
So I had sort of tapped intothis issue at a time when it
(05:46):
really was kind of hitting acritical mass.
So, long story short, he readthat he decided he wanted to
look into the issue because hewas interested in introducing a
bill on this topic of Star Times.
He ended up doing that.
I got caught up in this wholetwo and a half year legislative
journey.
I ended up testifying at thestate capitol, sacramento, about
this and being involved in allthe communications, and it
culminated in Californiaactually passing the first state
(06:08):
law in the country settingminimum allowed start times for
middle and high schools.
So, yeah, sort of this bit of ayou know crazy backstory, but
that finally got signed into lawin 2019.
Three-year implementationwindow went into effect in 2022,
which also just so happened tobe when my book came out,
(06:29):
because I was immersed in thistopic, talking to all these
researchers and gathering allthis info, and so all of that
happened in the summer of 2022.
And, as I mentioned.
So what propelled me into thiswas the issue of school start
times, which is still an issuein so many areas, you know,
within the United States, eventoday, but also it's so much
(06:51):
broader than that, and so,really, my focus now is you know
that's an essential piece of itwhen you look at it, but even
so, overall, our teens are sleepdeprived and there are so many
ramifications and there are somany other pieces that play into
.
Speaker 2 (07:07):
So really, I focus more broadly now on this overall
topic of sleep and wellness,because it affects literally
every single thing we do youknow our first question that we
had for you when your kids arelittle, you are constantly on
top of their nap situation,right, Making sure they have a
(07:29):
consistent bedtime.
And then they get older andthey're in charge of it and you
know.
So sleep is really importantfor all of us, but why, very
specifically, is it importantfor teenagers?
Because I think sometimes weforget about that.
How?
Speaker 3 (07:44):
specifically, is it important for teenagers?
Because I think sometimes weforget about that.
Yeah, so for teens, there are acouple of unique circumstances
that you know.
We do tend to think of sleep asbeing one of those things.
When our kids are little, it'slike, please, god, just let them
go to sleep and not, you know,get up in the middle of the
night and come wake me, and notwake at 6am, you know, and then
it totally, the situationtotally flips on its head when
our kids hit those teen years.
(08:06):
So, and there are severalcontributing factors to the
situation we have today, whichis that our teens are, by and
large, the most sleep deprivedof any age group.
So that is due to severaldifferent factors.
So the first is that when youthink about how much sleep you
(08:27):
need, we always hear eight hours, you know, as being kind of
this magic, perfect number.
So that is great for us asadults.
The official sleeprecommendations from the
National Sleep Foundation foradults over age 18 is seven to
nine hours.
So you know that's a prettybroad range, but the vast
majority of adults are going tofall somewhere within that.
So eight, great, that's themidpoint, that's perfect.
(08:48):
But teens need more sleep thanadults.
Up until age 18, they shouldactually be getting eight to 10
hours of sleep.
So I think the first thing isthat that's not always as widely
known, and particularly whenyou're looking at, you know, a
teen, a junior, a senior in highschool, they look like an adult
, but they're not.
(09:09):
They do need more sleep than wedo.
So when you talk about eighthours, that's the minimum that
they're supposed to be getting.
So that's the first piece of it.
The second is that they have ashift in their sleep timing.
So, as I was just referencing,you know, when your kid is four,
you know they're, or you know,even younger, they're bouncing
out of bed at 6am.
(09:30):
They don't do that once they'reteens.
You know there's all those sortof jokes about like needing to
go in and bang the pots and pansto get them out of bed at 11 in
the morning.
It's not just because suddenlythey became lazy, it's because
there is this fundamental shiftthat happens in the timing of
their sleep schedule.
So what happens?
It's called your circadianrhythm, which has to do with,
(09:52):
essentially, the when you areawake and when you're asleep,
and it is tied to light and dark, so we are alert and awake
during the day.
We sleep at night when it'sdark, and we have sort of an
internal schedule for that.
It is heavily influenced bylight.
But what happens for teens isthat whole schedule shifts later
as they enter adolescence.
(10:15):
And this is again.
This is a physiological thing.
So the hormone melatonin issomething that our brain
actually produces and it is whatprimes us to feel sleepy.
So melatonin is released andthen that sort of leads us to
start feeling sleepy, and thenwe get to that point where we go
to bed.
Well, melatonin begins to bereleased later in the evening
(10:38):
for our teenagers, and so all ofa sudden they're not feeling
sleepy as early as they used to.
So they're not feeling sleepyuntil roughly 11 o'clock at
night and then they need eightto 10 hours of sleep.
So you just kind of do the mathand then you look at the start
times and you can see if you'vegot to be up at, say, 630.
Or even earlier.
That makes it virtuallyimpossible to get eight to 10
(11:01):
hours of sleep.
So those are sort of the bigpieces affecting teen sleep.
And then there's so much elseand I know we'll get into some
of this because that's sort ofthe backdrop, but then there's
all the other things going on inschool.
There's their homework load,there's their activities.
You know this whole issue ofover-sketching, like that's real
(11:22):
, and all that ends up taking upmore and more and more of their
wake time, cutting into thatlittle piece that's allotted for
sleep.
Speaker 4 (11:30):
Wow, you know, I think you've just answered.
You know what's often been inmy mind, and I know other people
who say well, why don't theteenagers just go to bed earlier
?
Shouldn't we just enforce anearlier bedtime?
And if they've got to be atschool at 7.30 and we know they
(11:51):
need sleep, we say 9 o'clock,lights out, that's it, you're
done.
So now that makes more sense.
And you just mentioned a lot ofother factors.
So I'm curious.
I want to follow up on onethat's sort of my thorn in my
side a lot of the time, andthat's technology.
So how does now technology andall of the things that teens are
(12:17):
involved in, how does thatfactor into all of this?
Speaker 3 (12:23):
Yes, yeah, great question, and it does.
The short answer is yes, itdoes factor in.
This relates back to what I wasjust talking about the light
and dark and the release ofmelatonin.
So tech is here to stay.
Obviously, it's not like we canjust we can delay when our kids
get phones, but they're onlineto do their school assignments
(12:43):
too.
I mean, being online is such anintegral part of their social
world.
The same way, you know, when Iwas in high school, I was on the
telephone for hours.
Well, now that's been replaced,you know.
So tech is here to stay.
It has a valid role, but itdoes absolutely have the ability
to impact their sleep.
So there are a few differentways that that happens.
The first is simply timedisplacement.
(13:07):
So if you are online until lateat night, at some point you are
literally cutting into hourswhen you could have been
sleeping instead.
So that's the first piece.
The second piece is that sooften, what our teens and we as
adults are doing online isstimulating and engaging.
So you know, for us, maybewe're watching, you know, a
(13:28):
movie or something, Maybe we'rechecking our work email, so our
brain is still in work mode.
You know, for our kids, theycould be playing a video game
that's fast paced and energetic,they could be involved in some
kind of an emotional you knowchat with their friends about,
you know the latest relationshipissue that's come up, or
whatever.
So all that is keeping youawake and alert.
(13:50):
And then the last piece of it isthe blue light aspect.
So this gets back to the lightpiece I was talking about
earlier.
Blue light is part of theoverall spectrum of light and,
in fact, the biggest source ofblue light for us is the sun,
and when we're out in the dayand we get blue light that helps
cue us to feel alert.
Well, these devices that we'reusing, these backlit devices,
(14:13):
they actually emit blue light.
It's just part of the way thatyou know they've been
constructed with the LEDs andthat blue light actually primes
us to feel alert.
So you are like giving yourselfthese extra doses of blue light
in the evening when you're onyour devices, and that can, in
turn, delay the release ofmelatonin, meaning you're not
(14:33):
going to feel sleepy until later.
So there's all three of theseways that tech can potentially
impact sleep.
Speaker 4 (14:42):
So I know I'm jumping ahead a little bit.
I know one of the things we'rehoping to talk about, perhaps a
little later, is somesuggestions for parents and what
they can do.
But is it realistic to expectteens to put their devices aside
earlier?
In other words, to put theirdevices aside earlier, in other
(15:02):
words, you're not really sleepyuntil later.
But let's not add this factorand, by a little bit earlier,
put the device away.
Speaker 3 (15:11):
Yes, and in fact that is a best practice.
The American Academy ofPediatrics does recommend
getting off the tech devices anhour before bedtime.
So again, that is the bestpractice.
So that is something maybe towork toward.
So, again, that is the bestpractice, so that is something
maybe to work toward, because,again, just as with these
recommendations, we know whatthe official recommendation is
and then we know what reality is, and so I feel like, you know,
(15:34):
you may not ever get to perfect,but you can at least take steps
to get closer.
So, an hour before bedtime,that would be ideal.
Even if you can't do that,though, work towards better than
what you have now.
Maybe it's a half hour beforebedtime.
But getting off of those devicesrather than staying online, you
know, go, go, go, go, go andjust turn it off and expect that
(15:56):
you can just turn your brainoff the same way and just fall
asleep.
Flip a switch.
Yeah, exactly, yeah, our braindoes not have an off switch the
way that, you know, our devicesdo.
So that's the best practice isto get off devices an hour
before bedtime Along those lines, ideally, not keeping them in
the bedrooms overnight.
So, you know, have a centralcharging station.
(16:19):
The other thing that we can doas parents is help model these
behaviors, because these arebest practices that apply for
all users of tech.
So you know, if we've set ahouse rule yeah, no devices in
the bedrooms overnight.
We're just going to use analarm clock rather than the
alarm function on your phone Imean, those still exist out
there Then our devices need tobe charging in the kitchen as
(16:41):
well and we need to not besitting there on our laptops in
bed.
So it is also like having thisbe a family.
You know, set of tech rulesideally not just for teens, and
certainly, if you haven't hadthese kind of rules in place,
showing that you are now goingto be part of it and kind of
working towards it and gettingyour teens buy-in is also a
(17:04):
pretty essential piece.
Speaker 2 (17:07):
Yeah, because they can smell hypocrisy miles away,
can't they?
Speaker 3 (17:11):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (17:12):
Yeah, absolutely Do as I say, not as I do.
Their BS detectors are quitegood.
So obviously just having acrabby teenager in your house is
just not fun in general andit's not good for your mental
health.
But let's talk more deeplyabout you know, just aside from
being tired, you know what isthe link between sleep and
(17:34):
mental health, sleep and riskybehaviors and something I think
a lot of parents are worriedabout sleep and grades.
Speaker 3 (17:42):
Yeah, absolutely Well , sleep affects literally
everything we do.
I always tell people there'snot one single thing that you do
better as a result of beingsleep deprived.
So let me just kind of give aquick overview, because there's
so much to say about all ofthose topics.
Speaker 1 (17:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (18:00):
But first looking at learning, because obviously
that's like the whole point ofwhy our kids are in school all
day, right?
So when you are sleep deprived,it actually affects your
ability to learn and retaininformation.
So and there are threedifferent steps in the process
where it's, you know,particularly has an effect.
The first is when you areacquiring that new information.
(18:22):
So you're sitting in class, andif you're not really awake and
alert, you know it's not reallypenetrating to the same degree.
That's the same, by the way,you know, if you're at home and
you're reading like we've allhad that experience you're
trying to read something, you'retired and you realize you've
just read the same page likefour times and nothing has sunk
in right.
So that's the first step.
(18:42):
The second, though, isretaining that information,
because sleep is when our brainsare processing and synthesizing
all of that information we'vetaken in that day and moving it
from short-term into long-termstorage in terms of memory.
So all that is such a criticalpiece of learning is what
(19:03):
happens with that informationand how you retain it.
That's what's happeningovernight when we're sleeping.
And then the third piece iswhen you're trying to retrieve
that information, because ifyou're sleep deprived, just your
cognitive functioning is slowerand being able to retrieve that
information is much slower andmuch more difficult.
So that's the first piece.
So absolutely there's an impacton learning.
(19:26):
The other big piece, though Imean there's so many, but
another very large piece is themental health piece, and again,
so many different ways thatbeing sleep deprived affects
this.
But to start, it's basicallyyour emotional resiliency is
restored when you've had a goodnight's sleep.
(19:47):
You have an emotional buffer,you are ready to greet the day.
It's a key part of.
There's a term flourishing,which really has to do with
thriving, and that has to dowith not just things like having
a sense of purpose, but feelingengaged in your daily
activities and in yourinteractions with others and
(20:09):
just having a positive outlook.
And so getting a good night'ssleep is a key piece of that,
because you wake when you've hada good night's sleep and you
feel good when you open youreyes, you know, as opposed to
when you wake and you haven'thad a good night's sleep, like
you know, at the second you openyour eyes and it just makes
everything that much moredifficult.
You know, throughout the day,if you have mental health issues
(20:33):
like depression, like anxiety,et cetera.
Being sleep deprivedexacerbates them.
So you know, again, if you areprone to that let's say there's
a genetic component of familyhistory you go in, maybe to a
medical professional.
That's one of the very firstquestions they're going to ask
is how is your sleep?
Are you getting enough sleep?
Because if you're not, that'sthe first piece they're going to
(20:56):
want to address.
That's like the low hangingfruit.
You know it can be verystraightforward.
If you're regularly gettingfive hours of sleep, well,
they're going to work with youon trying to increase that to
get to, you know, being withinthe range before they're going
to start looking, you know,generally speaking, at other
possible causes, because sleepabsolutely is part of that.
(21:17):
And then you'd asked about riskybehaviors.
So again, sleep affects, andthis is particularly acute with
teenagers.
When you haven't gotten enoughsleep you are more prone to
risky behaviors, impulsivedecision-making, particularly as
a teen, because your prefrontalcortex is not going to be
(21:39):
operating as efficiently and italready is not operating as
efficiently in our teens becausetheir brain is in the midst of
this multi-year process of brainremodeling and the part that
revs up first is the limbicsystem, which is responsible for
sensation seeking and all thatkind of stuff, whereas the
(21:59):
prefrontal cortex, which is kindof the breaking part of the
system, does not go through thatremodeling until later on, and
so they don't even have a strongof a prefrontal cortex
functioning to begin with, andthen, when you're sleep deprived
, it exacerbates that.
Speaker 4 (22:16):
So it's just so overwhelming.
Well, I'm processing and as Iread the book, I've already most
, and maybe because I have agrandson who's an athlete and
(22:47):
does I mean, he's still youngbut he's several sports and he's
quite good at it was some ofthe things that you talked about
, some of the statistics eventhat you shared, about how
dramatically getting enoughsleep can improve athletic
performance, and it seems asthough for a lot of teenagers
(23:11):
who are very active athletes,this is one of the strongest
arguments for getting sleep.
Can you talk a little bit aboutsleep and athletics?
Speaker 3 (23:20):
Yes, yes, and absolutely it is to your point,
possibly the way in when you'retrying to kind of have these
conversations with your kid,because if they're an athlete,
maybe this is the piece that'sreally going to resonate, the
message being that sleep is acompetitive advantage.
So there is a study actuallythat really was sort of the
(23:42):
seminal study, for this was doneback in 2011 at Stanford.
A researcher there worked withthe Stanford men's basketball
team who they were not gettingenough sleep.
They were averaging less thanseven hours of sleep.
So she had them go through thisprocess of being in bed for at
least 10 hours a night as a wayto hopefully extend their actual
(24:03):
sleep time, because you can'tput someone to bed and say, okay
, sleep.
I mean, obviously it doesn'twork that way, but getting them
to prioritize it by spendingmore time in bed.
And, lo and behold, it worked.
They were getting less thanseven hours After this, they
were getting about eight and ahalf hours of sleep.
But what was so impressive waswhat that meant in terms of
their performance.
So all of a sudden, they wereposting a 9% increase in free
(24:28):
throws, a 9% increase in threepoint shots and they had faster
sprint times.
So it's like, all of a sudden,like this wasn't because they
were changing their training, itwas just because they were
getting more sleep.
So and so this is now a messagethat is pretty widely understood
.
And when you look at pro teams,college teams, they often have
(24:53):
sleep consultants.
They work with, you know,olympic athletes.
Many of them have come out verypublicly to talk about how
important sleep is to theirperformance.
So, absolutely so.
When you get enough sleep, itimproves your performance
performance.
So, absolutely so.
When you get enough sleep, itimproves your performance.
On the flip side, when youdon't get enough sleep, it
increases your risk for injuries, because it affects things like
coordination and response time.
(25:14):
And then if you are injured, ifyou're not getting enough sleep
, it is likely going to lengthenyour recovery time.
Speaker 4 (25:26):
There you have it.
Yeah, I mean, there are a lotof teenagers who are not
athletes, so there perhaps needto be some other arguments, but
for so many that's just it'sdramatic.
Speaker 3 (25:37):
Oh, absolutely Absolutely.
And sleep also is primarilywhen growth hormone is released.
So that's another argument thatoften, you know, really cause
people, you know teens, to situp and take notice there any
(26:03):
somewhat persuasive argumentsthat you think parents should be
using while their kids are inhigh school?
Speaker 2 (26:06):
you know, to begin with you know about this because
students feel the need, youknow, in their teenage years to
be in control of things right.
And I think in some communitiesthere is that.
You know grind culture.
You know where it's a point ofpride to say well, you know
these kids in AP classes who aregetting loads and loads of work
(26:29):
and I'm coming in on five hoursand so how to persuade them.
You know they can still lieabout it at school if they want
right.
Speaker 3 (26:38):
Yeah, no, it's tricky because it is multifactorial,
as you mentioned, andparticularly when you are in a
high-achieving environment,there are these other factors
that are contributing thehomework load, the
overscheduling of activities andthe perceived need to do all of
this in order to get into theright school, because it's going
(27:00):
to determine your future, andall that in order to get into
the right school, because it'sgoing to determine your future
and all that.
And it's tricky because itneeds to be addressed at so many
different levels.
There's the kids themselves, asyou mentioned.
It's sort of a point of pride.
It's sort of this kind ofhumble bragging Well, I only got
, you know, six hours of sleep.
Oh, well, I only got five hoursof sleep, so they've got that.
Sometimes it's coming from thefamily.
(27:21):
You know this need to sort ofperceived need to succeed
academically in order to getinto the right school.
Sometimes it's, you know, bakedinto the school itself, which
may have responded to, you know,the sort of push from parents
because they want to be highachieving school.
So it is coming from all thesedifferent places.
But at the same time, there's apoint of diminishing returns,
(27:45):
and I think that's what's soimportant to keep in mind.
One of the ways to sort of takea look at you know whether you
are indeed overscheduled is toliterally map out how many
waking hours you have, you know,during a typical day and how
those are currently beingallocated.
(28:05):
So you've got a set number ofhours that you're in school, but
then you have your hours forhomework for each class and it
may vary because the advancedlevel classes are often going to
have more homework.
Then there's all theextracurriculars and maybe it's
stuff they're doing in schoollike band and speech and debate,
or what have student governmentcould also be club sports
they're doing outside of school.
Maybe they also have a job.
(28:27):
They also need time to be ableto sit down and eat meals and
catch their breath and showerand things like that.
So you need to like factor inall that.
And if you do all that and thenyou see that there's not even
an eight to 10 hour window leftin the schedule, then it's
making it pretty hard for themto get you know, enough sleep
(28:47):
and it's also maybe a sign thatit's time to reevaluate.
And what that means is going todiffer, obviously you know in
each case, but when you thinkabout it we've already set the
limit somewhere.
Like people will brag aboutgetting five hours, they're not.
People will brag about gettingfive hours.
They're not going to brag aboutgetting two hours of sleep,
right.
Like, at some point you knowthere's a limit.
(29:12):
And it's the same with APclasses.
Even somebody who's overloadedtheir schedule with them At some
point there's a limit.
They're not taking, excuse me,literally every single AP class
that the school offers.
Like there is some limit theyhave set in their mind.
Same with sports Even if you'rea multi-sport athlete, you are
not literally participating inevery single sport that the
school offers.
You have set that limitsomewhere and I guess maybe my
advice would be to look at whereyou've set that limit and
(29:35):
perhaps recalibrate a bitno-transcript.
Speaker 4 (30:08):
That mathematical approach of saying this many
hours in a week or this manyhours in a day and then actually
looking at it, it does stareyou right in the face.
It's it's good, absolutely,yeah, go ahead.
Does stare you right in theface.
It's it's good and it'sabsolutely yeah, go ahead.
Speaker 3 (30:25):
Oh, I was just saying it sounds like what the big
piece that you're you'rementioning is the time
management piece, which is hugeand is something that, as you
know, kids leave home.
They are suddenly much moreresponsible for that and so
often that can use fine tuning,um.
But that's also something whenour kids are still at home and
they are in middle school andhigh school, we are helping,
particularly in the youngerteens.
(30:46):
Helping them learn those skills, helping them figure out.
You don't wait until the nightbefore something's due to
suddenly start on it.
So developing those skills issomething ideally they're doing
all the way through thosesecondary school years.
I assume it needs to bestarting earlier too, but the
point is like we are moreinvolved when they're at home.
(31:09):
But hopefully we're helpingthem develop those skills
because that's going to helpeliminate those late nights in
high school, like, oh God, Ididn't start and it's due, but
also ideally equip them sothey're able to take that with
them when they do go off tocollege.
Speaker 4 (31:19):
It strikes me that maybe college applications you
know as students are writingtheir admissions essays and all
they should include how manyhours of sleep do you get?
And maybe it boosts youradmission a little bit if you
say I get eight hours sleep,because then you know you're
going to have a student who'sgoing to be their sharpest.
(31:43):
Probably the admissionsofficers would not listen to my
argument, but it struck me asyou were talking, yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:53):
Well, and I like that idea.
It would be also great as a wayof saying to students, like,
when you come here, we expectyou to take care of yourself.
Because you know, this is apodcast for parents of current
college students as well, andyou know, when I help my college
students with their schedules,they have meetings at 10 o'clock
(32:14):
at night.
I mean, I am, I'm brushing myteeth at 10.
And so I think the nature ofcollege life is not necessarily
conducive to a good sleepschedule, and obviously on
weekends sometimes students say,well, I'll catch up on the
weekend, you know, and thenthere are activities on the
(32:37):
weekends and it doesn't reallyhappen.
Speaker 1 (32:40):
So you know, is there anything?
Speaker 4 (32:42):
Can I follow up on that question too?
What about that idea of sort ofbanking your sleep time on the
weekend?
Speaker 2 (32:51):
Yeah, I hear that all the time.
Speaker 4 (32:54):
How helpful is that and how effective is that to say
, well, yeah, I can only sleepon the weekend.
Speaker 3 (33:04):
Yeah, so it does.
I'm.
I'm positive because there's acouple.
There's sort of two differentpieces over here.
One is banking, which isgetting enough sleep ahead of
time.
Okay that it's in the bankbefore you're sleep deprived,
and that actually has been shownto be a good strategy.
So if you know you're going tohave some nights like that
(33:26):
coming up, being reallyintentional about starting off,
you know, in as good a positionas you can, so that's sort of
that concept of sleep banking.
The type of long weekend sleepthat you're referring to, though
, often is catch up sleep.
It's happening after the fact,and so that's a little bit
(33:46):
different, because you can neverreally truly catch up, so
you're always a little bitbehind.
So let's say that you havebuilt up this sleep deficit over
the course of the week, so youhave this accumulation of sleep
debt, because every night youknow let's say you know during
the week you're not gettingenough sleep You've got you end
up with a sleep debt of 10 hours.
(34:06):
Well, then you still need to begetting.
Let's just say, even if the kidis over 18 in college, let's say
they're supposed to be gettingeight hours.
Well, they need to then add onan additional five hours on each
of those nights in order toreally make it up, and so that
actually probably is nothappening.
Even if they're sleeping intill 11 or noon, and
(34:28):
particularly if they not so muchprobably for college but
certainly for adults going towork.
For high schoolers going toschool, you generally have, you
know, an earlier start time, Iwould say, than college students
.
That's probably like one ofthose best silver linings of
colleges you don't have to takeclasses at 730 in the morning.
But it makes it that muchharder to fall asleep at sort of
(34:48):
a reasonable hour on Sundaynight because you've got to get
up whatever time you have to getup on Monday, and so you may
not be setting yourself up forgood sleep habits for the
following week either.
Speaker 4 (34:59):
Yeah, and the other factor and I don't know whether
it does affect it or not mycollege students have very
irregular schedules.
So they may have an 8.30 classon Monday and Wednesday, but no
classes until 11 on Tuesday andThursday.
(35:20):
So they get up early and thenthe next day they sleep late.
How does that factor?
Speaker 3 (35:27):
in.
Yeah, no, you're right, andthat is often the reality,
especially during the collegeyears.
No-transcript.
(35:54):
However, if you can be moreconsistent, it's going to help
avoid these kind of issues wewere just talking about.
So, I mean, some variation isOK, but the more wildly your
sleep schedule is swinging, themore you are apt to have this
concept of what they call socialjet lag swinging, the more you
are apt to have this concept ofwhat they call social jet lag,
(36:17):
because it is like jet lag, Imean trying to like get yourself
on.
You know the schedule.
So so, yeah, that that canactually be an issue.
And and and, frankly, inaddition to getting enough sleep
, the official recommendations,all the sleep groups that are
out there, are that consistencyof sleep is also so important,
and this is not going toresonate so much, probably, with
(36:37):
college students, but for us asadults, it affects it literally
affects your longevity, I mean,it affects your lifespan.
It affects things likecardiovascular risk.
I mean there's so manylong-term effects of getting
inconsistent sleep on a chronicbasis.
Speaker 4 (36:55):
So I have another question based on my observation
of my college students and evenmy memory of being in college
although that was a few yearsago, but some things don't
change and that is as much aswhen they were toddlers, we
could never get them to take anap.
My college students love naps,and so they can't wait until
(37:19):
they can go back to their roomand take a nap.
Is that a good thing?
Are they catching up a littlebit on some sleep, or is that
going to put them off cycle forgetting to sleep on time?
Speaker 3 (37:36):
Yeah, no, naps are.
Naps can be great.
There's just sort of a coupleof kind of caveats you want to
keep in mind If you're going totake a nap.
Generally speaking, you don'twant to nap too late in the day,
because that is going topotentially make it harder to
fall asleep at the right time atnight.
(37:58):
Similarly, you don't want tonap too long, so, generally,
about 45 minutes or so would bethe recommendation, and taking a
nap when you're feeling likeyou need one is fine, again, as
long as you're sort of, you know, trying to adhere to those
guidelines.
The thing to keep in mind,though, is that a nap is
basically a compensatorystrategy.
(38:19):
Often, it's because you're notgetting enough sleep at night,
so, ideally, you don't want tofall into this habit of
regularly needing a nap.
You know getting less sleep atnight and needing a nap to be
able to make that up, becausethat, really, then, is a sign
that that's.
You know, if you were to begetting more sleep at night, it
might not be that same essentialnecessity to have a nap just to
(38:42):
be able to get through the day.
Speaker 4 (38:46):
Naps are great.
They get us get a bunch of usthrough a lot of things.
Speaker 3 (38:52):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, there is one other caveatwhich you know I'm sure we've
all experienced that if you naptoo long, you also fall into a
deeper sleep, and then you'regroggy, so you don't wake up
feeling refreshed.
Speaker 4 (39:06):
So we have to learn how to nap appropriately and
then and then they're probablyokay, yeah set a timer.
Speaker 2 (39:13):
You know don't go longer than 45 minutes and
ideally if it's already evening,like probably taking a nap is
not a great idea, yeah just goto bed earlier well, yeah, yeah,
I mean, my students describe tome, you know, getting fatigued
because something's due the nextday and then trying to take a
nap at one o'clock in themorning and sleeping through
whatever alarm they've set.
Speaker 3 (39:35):
So it's yeah, yeah, yeah, because they needed more
than a nap at that point.
They needed an actual longsleep, yeah that's a classic
story.
Speaker 4 (39:45):
yeah, slept through my alarm, so you've talked a lot
about things that we can do athome, you know, in terms of
modeling, especially withtechnology and devices and all
of that, or I guess maybe how tostart this conversation with
their students, because it doessound as though you know, in
(40:16):
order to put some of thestrategies you've talked about
into place.
You've got to be explicit, buthow do you get the conversation
about sleep started?
Speaker 3 (40:28):
Yeah, no, that's a good question.
I think it depends.
It depends on the scenario.
(40:51):
But oftentimes, you know, I'vehad people ask me well, how do
you convince kids that they'retired?
It's like, well, you know ifyou're tired, I mean they're
aware of it, you know they maybe trying to power through it,
but it's not like you don'tnotice.
You know, when you wake uptired and you're draggy and all
that.
So I don't think it's so muchthat, as much as it is probably
trying to ask questions, youknow, as opposed to coming and
saying, hey, I've got this newpolicy for our family, like
that's not going to go over sowell, you know, trying to sort
of figure out, let's say, youknow, as a scenario you've got
(41:16):
and I'm assuming you're talkingabout a kid who's still at home,
for you know purpose of thisconversation.
So let's say you've got a kidwho you know knows that they
really need to be in bed by 1030because of what time they have
to get up.
But they're regularly not doingthat, Asking them, you know, if
it's not already overtlyobvious, like, well, what's
getting in the way of you know,you being able to get to sleep
(41:39):
on time.
And I say overtly obviousbecause, let's say, they're not
getting home from sportspractice till 10 o'clock, like
well it's pretty obvious that'sgoing to be a major contributing
factor.
But there may be other thingsgoing on.
So you know asking questions,but there may be other things
going on.
So you know asking questions,you know being curious, you know
which.
Obviously that's sort of justgenerally as parenting advice
tends to work better than comingin and you know telling them
(42:00):
some great solutions becausethey don't really think of those
as being helpful.
So asking those kind ofquestions, like essentially
trying to help with them figureout what is it that's kind of
the pain point here that'smaking it so hard.
You know, because I know, youknow you want you're trying to
get to bed at 11, it just seemslike there's a 1030.
(42:20):
And there's always these thingsthat are coming up.
You know what are some of thethings you know we can do to
help so that it's probablycoming in with more that helpful
attitude and trying to seek tobe their partner in it as
opposed to, you know,adversarial, like I told you,
you were supposed to be in bedand you know it's like why isn't
it happening and what can we doto kind of address those
contributing causes?
(42:41):
So that's sort of the broadadvice, because the reasons why
it can vary, you know, it can bethe sports, it can be the
homework load maybe they aretaking too heavy of a homework
load.
It can be time managementskills, as you alluded to before
.
You know in terms of planningand when you're getting started
on assignments, it can be toomany things that they're
scheduled to do.
(43:01):
You know late night practices,you know all that stuff.
So it's trying to figure outwhat is actually most relevant
in your kid's particularsituation and then from there
you can figure out what are someways to help address those.
Speaker 4 (43:14):
Yeah, I think one of the really positive things that
I take out of this conversation,and a lot of what you've shared
, is that there really are waysto strategize and to be
proactive.
We know we're tired, and Ithink that's probably true of a
(43:36):
lot of parents as well.
It's not just teenagers, it'snot just kids.
We know we're tired, we knowour kids are tired they dragged
school, whatever but we don'tthink we can do anything about
it.
And so, you know, I really likehaving some of those ideas and
strategies, ways to talk aboutit and things to do.
(43:59):
I guess, oh, go ahead, go ahead.
Well, I was going to say Iguess you know we could keep
going, but one of the otherpieces in terms of doing
something about it, I wonder,just before we finish up, if you
could talk a little bit aboutthis movement that it seems to
(44:19):
be happening to try to makeschools start later.
You were able to proactivelyhelp that to happen, but if
parents are, you know, in acommunity and the school starts
at 7.15 or 7.30, what are someways that they can start to
(44:41):
maybe begin to advocate and getthat conversation started
locally in their own communities?
Speaker 3 (44:55):
in their own communities.
Yeah, absolutely.
I think it starts with having acommon foundation of knowledge,
so that you know all the kindof things we're talking about
here, how much sleep kids reallyneed to be getting, the fact
that they do have this circadianrhythm shift, so it's not just
that they're being lazy, youknow, etc.
So sharing this kind ofinformation is quite literally,
the best place to start.
You know, I am absolutely aproponent of addressing start
(45:19):
times at the state level,because you know you could have
the broadest impact.
That's not to say that that'sthe only way this can happen.
However, it has happened and itcontinues to happen in
districts around the country assmall as a single high school or
as large as an entire city.
I mean, up until California'slaw, it had never been done at
(45:41):
the statewide level before interms of setting the minimum
allowed start times.
Meanwhile, it has happened, youknow, on a grassroots level, in
so many communities and I sayso many because I can't quantify
it because there's no centraldatabase of districts that have
changed their start times, but Imean it's hundreds at least and
(46:01):
so that does continue to be avery effective way to do it.
So, in terms of sharinginformation.
That can start with aschool-wide meeting.
That can start with partneringwith the PTA.
In fact, the California StatePTA was one of the co-sponsors
of the bill in California, theother co-sponsor being Start
(46:22):
School Later, which is anonprofit that advocates for
this.
You can also look at starting alocal chapter of Start School
Later, because that is aterrific treasure trove of
resources from other people whohave done this in their
communities.
But, you know, partnering withthe PTA, hold a meeting.
Bring in a local pediatricianor sleep specialist to talk
(46:44):
about sleep.
Bring in somebody who you knowI go in and speak regularly to
schools.
I speak to parents about all ofthis.
You know, oftentimes when I'mgoing in, they may be more
broadly interested because, as Imentioned at the beginning of
our conversation, school starttimes are such an essential
(47:04):
piece of the equation, but thatis, you know, not at all the
entire picture and so many timesthere are schools where they
may not have super, super earlystart times and yet there are
still issues of sleep, uh,deprivation because of
everything else we've beentalking about the overscheduling
, the academic expectations, etc.
Etc.
So, um, so I say so as I wassaying.
(47:27):
So I think it starts withtrying to hold those sort of
conversations, getting together,you know, with other
like-minded parents, havingconversations with the school
administrators.
Often you will find that ifthey are aware of the research,
they understand that it doeshave a direct impact on grades,
on attendance rates, on mentalhealth, on all these other
aspects.
(47:47):
So starting to have thatconversation, figuring out who
your allies are locally andbuilding from there.
Speaker 4 (47:54):
There's hope.
Speaker 2 (47:58):
Well, and obviously to get that information,
everybody should read Lisa'sbook.
Speaker 4 (48:02):
Well, that's the best place to start, and make it a
community read.
Speaker 2 (48:07):
Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 3 (48:09):
Well, and to your point, I mean, I actually, when
I was writing the book, Iliterally wrote the book that I
wished that I had had when I wasjust in working on this journey
.
So, you know, starting off withthat foundational information,
giving you know that overview ofall the various ramifications,
from learning to mental health,to drowsy driving, to sports,
(48:29):
and then, like a third of thebook is all about specific
strategies.
So there are some specific tostart times, but there's also,
you know, you know, I'm sure,having read the book as well, as
you both have, um, you know, awhole chapter on technology and
on, you know, specific kinds ofthings you can do during the day
to help prepare you for a goodnight's sleep.
(48:50):
You know nighttime strategies,wind down routines.
So so I do get into all of thatand and as you can see, it's a
topic I'm passionate about and,just you know, could go on and
on.
Speaker 4 (49:00):
So again, just to remind people the book is the
Sleep Deprived Teen, why OurTeenagers Are so Tired and how
Parents and Schools Can Helpthem Thrive.
By Lisa L Lewis.
Lisa, if people would like tofollow up, if they would like to
learn more about the book,learn more about you, reach out,
(49:22):
are there ways that they can dothat?
Speaker 3 (49:26):
Yeah, absolutely Best way would be through my website
.
My email address is on thereand it's wwwlisallewiscom.
Speaker 4 (49:37):
Okay, so they go there and they can find out more
about the book and more abouteverything and reach out to you
if they need to.
Speaker 3 (49:46):
Absolutely.
Yeah, I'm always happy to chatwith people that way.
Speaker 4 (49:51):
Well, we are both.
Elizabeth is nodding her headand I'm speaking for both of us
to say we're both reallygrateful that you took time to
spend with us and have thisconversation.
It is such an important topicfor teenagers and college
students and probably theirtired parents as well, so it's
(50:14):
good for all of us.
So thank you so much and wewill put some of this
information in the show notes ofthe podcast.
And if you get back and forth,if you are listening to the
podcast, that's wonderful.
But if you know other peoplewho do not listen to the podcast
(50:35):
but maybe do YouTube, elizabeth, where do they look on YouTube
there?
Speaker 2 (50:40):
we go Sorry, yeah, it'll be on YouTube.
Speaker 4 (50:44):
And how do they find it on YouTube?
Speaker 2 (50:46):
They just find my website, my page.
There is the LD Advisorywebpage and you'll find it there
.
Speaker 4 (50:53):
And we will put those in the show notes too.
So thank you so much to ourlisteners for being here, our
viewers for watching us and LisaLewis for sharing your
information with us.
Speaker 3 (51:09):
Absolutely.
Thank you both so much.
Really love talking to youabout this.
Speaker 4 (51:13):
Okay, thanks.
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