November 4, 2025 • 35 mins
OStR'in Antje Koenen, MA, is a senior teacher for English and German at Max-Beckmann-Schule in Frankfurt a.M. in Germany. She also works for the Hessische Lehrkräfteakademie, facilitating workshops for other teachers in the use of Mahara and digital media in general, amongst other things.
In this episode, Antje shares why portfolios are a central part of her teaching and learning strategy. She explains how portfolios help engage students as partners in the classroom and help create authentic learning tasks that take advantage of the students' own experiences.
Resources
Related episodes
- Sigi Jakob-Kühn: Make students your partners in exploring portfolios
- Christine Dülfer: Supporting industry internships
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Production information
Production: Catalyst IT
Host: Kristina Hoeppner
Artwork: Evonne Cheung
Music: The Mahara tune by Josh Woodward
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Kristina Hoeppner (00:05):
Welcome to 'Create. Share. Engage.' This is
the podcast about portfolios forlearning and more for educators,
learning designers, and managerskeen on integrating portfolios
with their education andprofessional development
practices. 'Create. Share.
Engage.' is brought to you bythe Mahara team at Catalyst IT.
My name is Kristina Hoeppner.
(00:29):
Today I have an interview inperson, live at a school in
Germany with Antje Koenen, whois an English teacher here. I've
met Anja last year, also inperson in Wiesbaden; today, we
are in Frankfurt at theMax-Beckmann-Schule, but we had
been in touch online, though,emailing and been together in
(00:49):
some webinars before having hadthe chance to meet her in
person. S ince she has beenusing Mahara for quite a while,
I wanted to have a chat withher, and now that we've walked
around her fantastic school thathas a lot of art deco elements,
so it's been really great beingin an actual school building
with fantastic art around, nowwe are sitting in her library
(01:13):
that she manages with one of hercolleagues and students and have
a chat. Welcome to the podcast,Anje.
Antje Koenen (01:19):
Thank you. I'm very excited.
Kristina Hoeppner (01:21):
Antje, can you please tell me what your
role is here at school, andalso, what do you do when you're
not teaching?
Antje Koenen (01:28):
I'm an English and German teacher. We usually have
two subjects in Germany. I'vegot plenty of different tasks
here at school. As you alreadysaid, I manage the library with
a colleague. I do projects withliterature and with authors who
come to read. We have events. Wehave projects with writing
classes and stuff like that. SoI manage that. We also do a lot
(01:51):
of media. So I'm alsoresponsible for part of the
media education at this school.
I'm also responsible for events.
So if we have bigger events,like when we have the A levels,
the celebration, I manage that.
So I do quite a lot of things. Iabsolutely love my job. I do
lots of things because I'm verycurious, which I, by the way,
think that's one of the mostimportant skills a teacher
(02:12):
should have, or competence, tostay curious.
At home, I've got a largefamily. I've got three kids.
They're all grown up now. I'vegot one disabled son who keeps
me well in check, in a way, butit's still very, very nice. I
love singing. I play the guitar.
I'm outside a lot. I ride mybike. I ride my bike to school a
lot. So it's like quite a longway, but I love it. Yeah, it's
(02:34):
that's what I do.
Kristina Hoeppner (02:38):
You are also responsible for teaching other
teachers about Mahara and alsowork for the Ministry of
Education in the state ofHessia.
Antje Koenen (02:46):
Yes, I do. That's also important for my Mahara
work because since 2016, about athird of my time I spend at the
Education Institute, and Iactually give workshops for
teachers. The main thing iseither Mahara or learning, and
we call it 'Lernbegleitung', soanything that supports students
(03:08):
in their learning process.
Kristina Hoeppner (03:10):
When did you encounter portfolios for the
first time? You said you havebeen facilitating workshops
since 2016, but was that yourfirst time that you've learned
about Mahara and portfolios orwas that already much earlier?
Antje Koenen (03:22):
That wasn't much earlier, but it was two years
earlier. It was 2014 when acolleague of mine, who's now my
head, basically in thedepartment, he asked me whether
I wanted to join a bigger thingfor two years working with
portfolios, learning a lot aboutcoaching and supporting
students. It was a mix of mediaplus how to talk to students in
(03:46):
the right way, so answerquestions, strategies,
communication strategies. Iabsolutely loved it.
II still remember that mychildren really started laughing
when I said I'm going to startworking with digital media
because I wasn't able to handlemy smartphone very well at that
time, and I needed help all thetime. I was already quite old,
you know. So I wasn't like oneof the young teachers who does
(04:08):
that. I was quite old. Peoplewere quite surprised, but I
started it, and I just loved it.
I came across portfolios, and Iknew instantly that this is
something that I've been lookingfor, basically, that was a
solution for many things.
Kristina Hoeppner (04:21):
Why was it the solution for things? What
captured your attention in theportfolios?
Antje Koenen (04:27):
The freedom that it offers. I have always been
working with students in a waythat I try to open up, try to
look at their needs, theirskills, what they can offer, and
what I can support. Instead oftop down teaching - I am the one
who knows everything, and youhave to follow my lead. So I was
always looking for projects andother things to do. But where do
(04:47):
you share it? Where do you putyour documentation? Where is it?
Where can you present it? I cameacross this portfolio, and I
will never forget the first timeI went into my class and I just
accounted Mahara. That was 2014.
I came into my then class that Iwas tutoring, and it was, I
think it was my second class. SoI was not so confident, but I
was confident enough to say,"I've just encountered this
(05:10):
brilliant platform. I reallylike it. Shall we try? I have no
idea how it works, but we cantry together."
What did we do? We started withMahara. Many things went wrong,
so we started with only groupportfolios because we didn't
know that there were singleportfolios. Suddenly we ran out
of space, so we couldn't uploadanything. So what did students
do? They started searching andfinding out, and then they told
(05:33):
me, 'Oh, we have to do this andthat.' So we did it together.
The first thing we actually did,was just documenting our class
trip. We put all these picturesup, and that was Dublin. When we
had open house, they presentedit, and they were really happy.
It was great. That's when mylove for portfolio and Mahara
started.
Kristina Hoeppner (05:50):
I'm reminded of what Sigi Jakob-Kühn said,
who started with portfolios inBaden-Württemberg that she also
didn't necessarily knoweverything at the beginning, but
that the students helped her,and the students found out these
things...
Antje Koenen (06:03):
Yeah, exactly.
Kristina Hoeppner (06:04):
... really learned together, and that, I
think, is the nice thing about alot of media and educational
technology that the boundariesof the sage on the stage are
broken up, and you're becomingmore of a learning partner...
Antje Koenen (06:16):
Absolutely.
Kristina Hoeppner (06:17):
... and work things out together.
Antje Koenen (06:18):
That was my aim all along, to be a learning
partner rather than a teacher inthat respect. It just helped me
getting on a level where I cansay, 'Yes, I'm here to support
you. You support me. You'relearning from me. I learn from
you. We can study thingstogether.' And it works. I'm
still learning a lot.
One of the moments where Ithought this is great was
actually when they were helpingme, and after a while I was
(06:39):
helping somebody else, and theysaid, "You know, Frau Koenen,
she can really do things." Itwas not because I was brilliant
in technology. It was justbecause I was trying out, and
they realised, I'm trying outand I can do things. It was such
a compliment at this moment. Ireally liked it.
Kristina Hoeppner (06:55):
Especially for somebody who was labelled as
the non-techy in the family.
Antje Koenen (06:59):
Absolutely, as the one who can't deal with
anything, you know [both laugh].
And it was great. It still is.
Now, people come to me and askme all the time [laughs]. It's
just nice the way you developskills with technology in a way
that is very satisfying as well.
Kristina Hoeppner (07:15):
Sometimes you don't even notice until you
stop, think back, and realise,'Oh yes, I have learned these
things.' And then you can, ofcourse, in portfolio fashion,
also reflect on that...
Antje Koenen (07:25):
Yeah, absolutely.
Kristina Hoeppner (07:26):
... what you've learned and how you
transfer that knowledge, thingsyou learned in Mahara,
transferring them to Moodle, notbeing afraid of that platform,
or any of the other moderntechnologies that might come
along.
Antje Koenen (07:36):
I think one of the biggest and most important
things in being a teacher isbeing pragmatic. You have to
have a lot of pragmatism becauseif you don't, things will fail.
If you're fixed, you get static.
If you get static, things don'twork. So I have to be very
flexible, and one of the thingsin portfolios, for instance,
that I can have times where I doa lot, and I have half a year
where I do nothing. I justaccept it and I embrace it. And
(07:59):
I say, 'Oh yes, now I've workedwith AI, so I need a page where
I can show off what I can dowith AI,' and then for a while,
don't do anything.
I have a picture on myportfolio. We had a celebration
here at school, my 50thbirthday. So we had the
celebration. It was summerholidays, so you get a speech,
and then this picture where Iwatched the speech is on this
(08:19):
portfolio, and it always remindsme of the times when I started
everything. It's really nice tolook at it. I have a few student
portfolios on there as well, soI can look back screenshots. I'm
just getting bit nostalgicsometimes. It's really, really
nice, and I can see my progress.
Same for those students, theysee their progress.
Kristina Hoeppner (08:37):
Yeah, we are making that learning visible.
Antje Koenen (08:39):
Yeah, absolutely.
That's it, this making itvisible. Also on my portfolio at
the first few pages somewhere, Ihave a few quotes I like, and
one of them is Roosevelt. Shesays, "Do something every day
that scares you." I think that'sa great quote to say, 'Okay, I
face challenges and I like them,and I embrace them.' Portfolio
work can really help you withthat. As you start something,
you have a project, you havesomething you're not sure about,
(09:00):
you put your plan down. You say,'I'm planning something. What do
I need?' You have a blog whereyou write about, oh, I don't
know. And then you just make itall visible. It really helps
other people to follow yourprocess and say, 'Oh, maybe I
could do the same. It'sinteresting.'
Kristina Hoeppner (09:16):
The first portfolio that your students
created were group portfolios.
Do you also now have them createpersonal portfolios?
Antje Koenen (09:24):
Yes, absolutely, yes. Usually they create more
personal portfolios than groupportfolios. We use the group
portfolios, of course, as well,because when they collaborate,
it's easier with the groupportfolios, and if they have
bigger projects in the group ofcourse. But what they always do
is they copy the groupportfolios into their own
portfolio, and then they havetheir own evaluation.
Kristina Hoeppner (09:43):
So you evaluate the portfolios of the
students then as well?
Antje Koenen (09:48):
I think the best way to explain it is in my
portfolio work. When I reallyhave a class for a longer time,
they just do the portfolio allthe time. Normally, most people
here use it in a way that I havea task, a bigger one, then they
have this one task, and thenthey do a portfolio with this
task. What I do is, usually Isay, 'No, you have your
portfolio all the time. Wheneverwe do something that is
(10:10):
worthwhile keeping, or somethingyou have written down, or it's a
picture, or whatever, you justput it on your portfolio.'
Kristina Hoeppner (10:16):
Your students create their portfolio
throughout class. Does it meanthey keep one portfolio for an
entire class or for their entireschool year?
Antje Koenen (10:25):
Well, they don't have one portfolio as such. I
mean, you have your profile, andwithin their profile, they have
the unit Shakespeare, then youhave a Shakespeare portfolio.
Within the Shakespeareportfolio, they either have
different pages, or they havejournals, whatever they like,
and within their Shakespearepart, they have tasks, or
sometimes they just haveinformation, or sometimes they
(10:45):
have something else they don'tnecessarily evaluate that. What
they do evaluate is their tasks.
So if they have bigger tasks,like this complex learning task,
usually I say, 'plan, do, check,act', and they have the certain
questions that they shouldanswer, they can also say, 'No,
I don't want these questions. Iwill come up with something
else.' That's fine. But as aguideline, they have these
questions. So they then, if theyhave a bigger task, they have a
(11:08):
planning section, and then theyuse mind maps and other advanced
organisers. They even sometimeswrite something about themselves
or whatever they like. Then theyhave the project itself. So the
outcome, the product, if thereis a product as such, and then
either presentation or a videoor a podcast, whatever they have
produced.
Kristina Hoeppner (11:28):
Do you then also grade their portfolios?
Antje Koenen (11:31):
Yeah, I do, sometimes, not always. I have a
system that when I work withthem for a longer time, and
there are my classes or mycourses that I have for a longer
time, it's usually simply oralmark. So I say 50% of your oral
mark is Mahara, and that's it.
In this way, I grade it withinthe oral mark, I grade their
performance, whether they do thethings, whether there's
progress, whether I can see aneffort. I do not necessarily
(11:53):
always grade the outcome, morethe process.
Kristina Hoeppner (12:00):
Do they then also need to talk about their
portfolio?
Antje Koenen (12:02):
Yes, absolutely.
They often have something like,you know what gallery walk is?
Gallery walk is a method that Iuse quite a lot. You have groups
that are working, and when theypresent their stuff, say you
have five groups or six groups,then you have six stations. You
split the group in half. So halfof the group walks around from
each station to each station,and the other halves present
their stuff. Then you swap, andthen the other half presents,
(12:24):
and the others walk around, andthey usually have feedback
sheets. Then I give them time tolook at portfolios again and
write down their feedbacks forthe portfolios. So they also use
the comment section in Mahara togive their feedback. I'm still
working on that, because thefeedbacks are still like, 'Oh,
you have a great page. Verynicely done.' Typical student
style, which I understandbecause they would never
(12:47):
criticise other students. Forthem, realising that they could
be helpful, that is a step thathard for them, but I'm on the
way [laughs]. I'm still learninghow to do it better in all these
years now.
Sometimes, I really think, ohyes, it's working. And sometimes
I realise, well, maybe that wastoo early. I try to give longer,
(13:08):
nicer feedbacks,forward-oriented feedbacks,
seeing their skills. Incoaching, you always say, look
at the things that work anddon't look at the things that
don't work. I'm really trying tosay in my feedbacks, even if
there is a portfolio which isbare and, you know, ChatGPT text
and stuff like that, I willstill try to find ways of
saying, 'Yeah, you have doneyour first page. You know,
(13:30):
you've created your first page.
That's really nice, and youembedded a picture. Well, next
step, and at least you havefound a good prompt for the
ChatGPT, and so this shows thatyou can manage. It also shows
that you're not giving up still.
You're trying to do something.'So I'm trying to find good ways,
and this is what I'm working onwith the students as well, that
they showcase their stuff, butat the same time, are able to
(13:53):
appreciate others.
Kristina Hoeppner (13:55):
Do you have a reflective framework that you
use or reflection questions thatwork really well with your
students?
Antje Koenen (14:01):
Yeah, I just have a few questions, really, and I
think that works best becauseI've also talked to a lot of
colleagues and colleagues whoare younger. At university, they
are forced to do reflectionwork. If you're forced to do
that, it doesn't work. So I'mtrying to come up with just a
few questions, which are usuallywhat work well, what didn't
work? Well, what am I proud of?
What would I do differently nexttime? Something like that. And
(14:23):
the best question, I think, is,imagine your future self in half
a year's time. What would youlike to say to your future self
now? The outcome is great - whatthey say about themselves
because they totally realisewhat they should maybe change,
but they also are good atsaying, 'I'm quite good at
this.'
Kristina Hoeppner (14:43):
Are you then the only teacher here at your
school that uses portfolios orare they others?
Antje Koenen (14:48):
I think I'm the only one who uses it at a
regular basis, but I have atleast three colleagues who use
it for tasks. I was surprisednow, because Mahara is moving,
so I send a message to all thestudents. And quite a few
students said, 'Well, I need tomove my pages now.' I was
surprised that so many studentsactually have pages. Few
colleagues are using it, not asregularly as I do, but...
Kristina Hoeppner (15:09):
Are they also English teachers?
Antje Koenen (15:11):
One is chemistry and politics. One is chemistry
and mathematics. Two Germanteachers use it, and some
English teachers.
Kristina Hoeppner (15:20):
Wow, chemistry and mathematics. I'd
love to hear how they are usingit in their classes. Do you
know?
Antje Koenen (15:27):
I think a lot of times they just use it for
complex tasks in terms of tryingto explain something. So what
they do usually is that theyhave a task and the students on
the portfolio page, they try toexplain their way of getting
through it and explaining whatthey've done. Sometimes they
also include videos like explainvideos and stuff like that, even
from platforms or from otherteachers who put them on
(15:50):
platforms. And they just findways of documenting their
learning process in mathematics,which I really like, I must say.
In chemistry, they use it, forinstance, for presentations of
processes like if you have fattythings and oily things, and how
the structure and stuff likethat. And I've seen pages of
that. I really like that. Inpolitics, he actually does
(16:13):
things like create a campaignfor a party on a page.
Kristina Hoeppner (16:18):
Project work, documenting the learning, and
then seeing how that can also betransferred in other areas. You
work with a lot of teachersacross the state in your
capacity as facilitator forMahara and introducing the topic
of portfolios to yourcolleagues. How did that come
about? What does the trainingentail?
Antje Koenen (16:38):
It started actually, with the idea of the
state of Hessia to say that allteachers should have a portfolio
in terms of digital mediaeducation, media education in
general. It was a law, actually,in 2017, but it was voluntarily.
You can do it, but you don'thave to. So nobody did it. But
the Teachers Academy said,'Okay, we need workshops for
(17:00):
that because if people have tostart using portfolios, they
need to know how, and werecommend Mahara because it was
already there.'So we give workshops for
teachers who are interested indoing their portfolio work with
Mahara. We need to show teachersthat you can use Mahara at
school at the same time, whenyou're using it for your own
portfolio. If you can usesomething at work, you also use
(17:21):
it for your own stuff. This ishow we develop the whole idea of
workshops.
We do a lot of workshops thatare only one and a half hours
long, which basically just showhow Mahara works and give some
examples. But we also do longerthings, like three afternoons
with a task for next time, whichincludes coaching, supportive
(17:44):
questions, feedback, growthmindset. All these things are
included. So we combineportfolio with Mahara, with
'Lernbegleitung', i.e.
process-oriented learning. Thenwe usually have schools who book
that, and then they have, likethree afternoons.
We have a lot of online sessionswhere we just say, 'Okay, you
want to have a look intoportfolios? Go ahead, we show
(18:04):
you how.' Then there is the nextsession that focuses, for
instance, on literature andportfolio.
Kristina Hoeppner (18:11):
What did you do with your teachers then in
that workshop?
Antje Koenen (18:13):
We had this roadmap idea. So 'Macbeth' is
new in the curriculum now. Wehad "Othello" for a long time,
Shakespeare's 'Othello', and nowit's 'Macbeth'. And I showed
them how I work with sonnetswith portfolios, gave them ideas
about Macbeth, and we alsobrainstormed a lot of ideas, and
we were always trying to combinethe idea of this portfolio with
(18:34):
Shakespeare's work and complexlearning tasks.
I have a complex learning taskfor sonnets, for instance, which
I showed them, where thestudents first learn a bit about
sonnets, and then they have tochoose their own sonnet. They
have to explain it. That's onetask, and then they have to
recite it. How they do isentirely up to them. So they
choose the sonnet out of 154sonnets by Shakespeare. They
(18:56):
choose one. They decide on howthey come across it, they decide
on how they want to explain it,and they decide on how to recite
it, or whether they combineeverything in one go. I had
podcasts, pictures, I haddrawings, I had a video. I just
try and open up the minds of theteachers who work with that to
say, portfolio enables you towork individually in a very
(19:20):
broad sense, in a very sense ofnot telling them exactly what to
do, but giving them theirfreedom because they document
the work.
In the end, students can decidewhether you should see the
portfolio in the process orwhether you should see it in the
end. I always say, 'If you wantme to support you, I need to see
the process.' So we havedeadlines in between where they
can show me their work, and thenI give feedback in between. Or
(19:43):
we also go and say, 'Okay, shareit with a group. Or start with a
group portfolio, whatever youlike,' and then the others can
always look at your portfoliosin between, get their own ideas,
and they did. They said they hadideas because others had ideas.
Some, for instance, said, 'Oh,we had good contents, but our
page looked terrible. Then welooked at the other pages, and
then they thought, Oh, they'reso creative. So rearranged
(20:04):
everything.'This is the idea of sharing,
working, sharing, getting moreideas, being inspired. I just
try to open up other teachers'mind of embracing that. It's
hard for teachers because wewant to be in control. Lot of
people would say, 'Yes, I haveto be, because I've got all
these things that I have tofulfill - 'Lehrplan'
(curriculum), you know, allthese things. Yeah, but I say
(20:27):
'What? I'm working at a SixthForm College, which means I get
evaluated every year. Everycourse I have ends up in a final
exam, which is a written examwith certain tasks. If my work
wouldn't work, they'd fail,wouldn't they, but they don't.'
I always say, 'they are notbetter than others, but they're
also not worse.' So I docompletely different things, but
(20:47):
the outcome is still okay, whichmeans it works.
Kristina Hoeppner (20:52):
Your students have that bigger freedom and
also work in that learningcommunity where they learn from
each other. So from what I'veheard is that your students do
share their portfolios, not justwith you, but also fellow
students to get that feedback,not only because you tell them
to give the feedback, but alsobecause they want to learn them
from each other.
Antje Koenen (21:13):
And you have things like, I often start in
11th grade with writing littletexts, and they write their own
short stories. They're reallykeen on it. I mean, you could
say, 'now all ChatGPT writesit.' No, no, no, they like it.
We have comments like, "Whydon't you just start writing
novels because that's whatyou're obviously good at"
[laughs]. I just yeah, thingslike that. Isn't that wonderful?
Just appreciating what theothers are doing.
(21:35):
A lot of times you get thingslike, 'Wow, what a good idea. It
didn't even occur to me to dosomething like that next time,
I'll try it out.' Or they comeacross this new digital tool
that they use. 'Oh, yes, what isit, and can you explain?' So we
talk. I think being a teacher -one of the biggest things that
you need, apart from curiosity,as I said at the beginning, the
(21:55):
other thing is the communicationand the relationship with your
students, and I think allteachers would agree on that.
You need to have a goodrelationship, and portfolio work
really helps you with that. Youhave time for the students. You
can talk to them. They work ingroups. They do their tasks.
I don't give them so much'homework'. A lot of the times,
I just let them work in thelessons because I don't want
(22:17):
them to struggle at home. So wetry and do everything we can
basically in the lessons. Ifthey don't work in the lessons,
then they have to do it at home.
Okay, fair enough. Yeah. If theychoose to do so if it's
finished, then when it should befinished, fine. I can walk
around. I can talk to them, youknow? I look at the portfolios
while they're working. I givethem feedback while they're
working. When they struggle, Ihave time.
(22:39):
When I look at the portfolios, Ialso learn a lot about their
skills. I really do. In my ownclasses, I often encourage them
to create their profile page ina nice way, and you learn so
much about whether they havebudgies, or if they're
skateboarding, or if they playthe piano, do things like that.
They do internships in 12thgrade. As a tutor, I always say,
'if you like, make a portfolioof your internship. It doesn't
(23:00):
need to be much. It's okay ifyou just have a few pictures, a
bit of reflection, yourcuriosity, why did you choose
this one? and really niceoutcomes as well' A lot of them
also, are also blogging abouttheir internships. So they have
this diary. If they do that, Ilet them present in class. It's
not compulsory. They can choosewhether they want to do it. They
have to do it in English if it'san English class, then you learn
(23:22):
even more about them.
Kristina Hoeppner (23:24):
What do they like about the portfolio?
Antje Koenen (23:27):
I think they like that they can show off [laughs].
That's one of the things. Ifyou'd ask students here about
Mahara, they always say, 'Oh,Frau Koenen and her Mahara
pages. It's really annoying,'but the more they work with it,
the more they like it. A lot oftimes they say, in 13th grade,
especially, that they can watchtheir learning process. They
actually watch themselvesgrowing. They like the sharing
(23:48):
bits. They like to see whatothers are doing and what they
can do themselves. They alsolike that everything is there
for them. It's a way oforganising themselves. I think
that's a big part of it, thisidea of being I'm organised.
I've got my stuff together. It'smy portfolio. I know where
things are. And it's not onlyfor studying, it's for me just
to look at things again. Oh, wedid Britishness. What was it
(24:10):
again? Did we have an interview?
Yeah, where was it? Oh, yeah, itwas on that page. Oh, Paula had
an interview. Ah, where was it?
Henry had an interview. Wherewas it? I really like that. So
let's go back to Henry's page,which is shared in the group,
and then they look at thisagain, and they really like it.
Kristina Hoeppner (24:25):
Where do you see are the challenges in the
German school system to workwith portfolios effectively?
Antje Koenen (24:34):
That's a bit tricky to answer because I
believe that you can work yourway around it as a teacher, but
you need to want to do it. Oneof the challenges is that we
still have a system - if youwere a teacher 100 years ago,
you would land in school today,you could still teach. This is
also why it doesn't work a lotof times, because people. Are
the framework, the mindset, theold.
Kristina Hoeppner (24:54):
That's why I like the project that you're a
part of at the Ministry, tobreak that up and to make
digital media part of the entirelearning environment, make it
more commonplace, take away thescariness, and also offer those
workshops because we can'texpect teachers to know how a
portfolio works, how to giveeffective feedback, how to do
(25:16):
coaching without any training init. That's what I really like
about your work and the work ofyour colleagues who are
facilitating those workshops,that you make that new part
easier for others, so that theyare more willing to take it on,
can also experiment forthemselves and realise, oh, this
is maybe how I want to work witha portfolio, what Antje has
(25:37):
shown me, I would like to trythat, or I'd like to try
something entirely different, sothat they do have also that time
to experiment and explorethemselves.
Antje Koenen (25:47):
For instance, when we work with Mahara, I give
templates. I make templates forthe teachers, and say, 'you can
use them if you want to startand you're insecure, use a
template here. You've got one.
You can copy it. Your studentscan copy it. They can work with
it.' So we're really trying hardto make it as easy as possible,
as accessible as possible. Butmindset is a problem which can
be overcome by constantlyshowing good results.
(26:09):
Tricky because the framework isnot a framework that you could
say, oh, I can open up and I canwork freely, and I can really do
this and that. You've got this45 minutes lessons, you know, so
and so many times a week, thenyou've got the 'Klausuren'
system, exam system, so you haveto write two exams in an
advanced class per term. Theyhave to be written. You have to
(26:33):
do some teaching to the test inbetween. That, of course, throws
you back in your work. When youhave a project, it takes time.
Your work takes time. That's oneof the biggest problems. But
also, a lot of people say, 'Oh,it all takes time, takes time,
and I have to do my work.' And Isay, 'Well, but your work is
work around it. That is yourwork now.' The bottom line is
still, I teach. As long as youhave this bottom line, 'I teach'
(26:56):
is work, my tip is, get involvedwith your students. Stop
teaching.
Kristina Hoeppn (27:02):
Individualising the work for the students, let
them explore the topic anddocument their learning.
In Germany, data privacy is avery important topic because it
is extremely important toprotect the student data and
also teacher data on anybodyelse's data. How do you ensure
that your students' data is onlyavailable to those that should
(27:25):
see it? Do the students learnabout data privacy and how they
can or should protectthemselves?
Antje Koenen (27:31):
I love that about Germany that we have this strong
data protection, and I think weare exceptional in that case,
which also puts up a lot ofbarriers at the same time, of
course, but still again, bottomline, brilliant. So what do we
do? Mahara, for instance, here,is incorporated in the
'Schulportal', which is a bigplatform which the state of
Hessia offered and supports.
Mahara is incorporated there,and nobody has access to it,
(27:54):
only students. I like aboutMahara, for instance, that your
portfolio is your portfolio. Ifyou don't share it, nobody can
see it, so it's very data safe.
At the same time, you have thepossibilities to share. If you
share it's in a protected group,usually, so you share it with
groups so nobody else can justhave access to it, so it's safe.
(28:16):
If they have the secret URLs - Ipromote secret URLs because I
think to have a Mahara portfolioand be able to show it to
anybody who wants to is apossibility that should be
there. For instance, if you haveinternship reports or something
and you want to show them toyour next job manager, it's good
to have it.
Then we, of course, have to dealwith the question, which
(28:37):
pictures do you have on it? Doyou have any personal data on
it? Do you have your resources?
Where do they come from? Do youhave your CC license on it? So
that's also something Maharadoes that you can have a CC
license, the Creative Commonslicense. So you protect your own
work, and once you protect yourown work, you think about work
of others, and you suddenly knowwhat a Creative Commons license
means. That is something we alsotalk about when we do the
(28:59):
portfolios. We also look atother portfolios and we check,
oh, there's a picture of thefamily on it; should not share
it, or before you share it, makesure that the faces are
invisible, blur the faces, or dosomething else with it because
we have portfolios, forinstance, when we do
Britishness, we often do a lotof your family. Where do they
come from? Multiculturalism. InGermany, we have a lot of
multicultural families withvarious backgrounds, so they
(29:21):
make their pages and show themto others, proud of their
heritage and their culturalbackground. But of course, these
portfolios are difficult toshare because they give so much
away. We talk about it. Also,when they use pictures for their
portfolios, we explain researchpictures, license. You cannot
take every picture, just likethat. Can't. Music. You create a
(29:41):
podcast. Where do you get soundsfrom that you can use? So find
sounds that are free.
Kristina Hoeppner (29:50):
That's great, that you can teach. All of that
in the context of portfolios,and therefore make it an
authentic learning task.
Antje Koenen (29:57):
It's definitely authentic.
Kristina Hoeppner (29:59):
We talked about a lot of things before we
had the interview...
Antje Koenen (30:02):
... but it was worth it, wasn't it?
Kristina Hoeppner (30:03):
Which was really important and so
fantastic to be here with you inperson. So let's look at the
last question before we get intoour quickie answer round, Antje.
What do you wish everybody knewabout portfolios?
Antje Koenen (30:16):
Joy - the joy of sharing work, presenting work,
and the joy of seeing how yougrow.
Kristina Hoeppner (30:23):
You exuberantly [Antje laughs]
demonstrate that joy and alsolive that joy because when we
walked through your schoolbuilding, students just came up
to you, talk to you aboutthings, talk to you about their
problems, immediately knowingthat they can talk to you, that
you have an open ear, that youreally also want to engage with
them and that was absolutelygreat to see.
Antje Koenen (30:43):
Thank you[laughs].
Kristina Hoeppner (30:44):
Now to our last three questions. Which
words do you use to describeportfolio work?
Antje Koenen (30:49):
Portfolio work is rewarding because you see
growth. It's also rewardingbecause you document something,
and you get organised, and youalso keep focused because you've
got something to focus on. Andit's also community.
Kristina Hoeppner (31:11):
What tip do you have for learning designers
or other teachers that arecreating portfolio activities?
Antje Koenen (31:17):
Throw yourself into it and just try out and
don't be scared. That's thefirst thing. Enjoy - work with
your students together. You getto know your students. Embrace
that, that you get to know yourstudents, and work with that
portfolio work is something thatgives you time. It takes a lot
of time, but it gives you timeat the same time. And really see
that if you do start with easythings, you know, start with
(31:41):
easy questions. Don't give thema template that is full of
hundreds and 1,000s of tasks andquestions. It's just
overwhelming. Start with yourclass trip. Start with their
profile page. Start withsomething simple. You just move
on from that.
One thing I really have to saybecause it's something a
colleague of mine, Jannetje, whostarted with me working out, she
had this wonderful explanationof how to change tasks. She
(32:04):
said, 'Okay, imagine you have anEnglish book and you want to do
the past tense. You have aschool book. There are three
pictures, Paul on hisskateboard, Paul eating
something, Paul whatever'. Andthen the task is write down what
Paul did yesterday in the pasttense. No, change it. Say, take
your mobile take pictures ofyour day, put it on the Mahara
portfolio and write down whatyou did yesterday. You need to
(32:27):
know the past tense for that. Soone skill you have to learn. You
have to learn how to uploadpictures on Mahara. You maybe
have to learn how to do agallery. You can also say, okay,
you can use a presentation andput the pictures in to show
them. And then you need to beable to create text. You need to
be able to arrange it on thepage. You need to share the
(32:47):
page. You need to show it toothers. You can give feedback to
others. And suddenly you have acomplex learning task. A simple
task to begin with, but it's awonderful task for the students,
because they like it. It hassomething to do with themselves.
Kristina Hoeppner (32:59):
Exactly. It's that authentic learning. They
can bring themselves in becausethey might not be able to relate
to the activities that Paul did,but they might want to talk
about or show off, about whatthey've done.
Antje Koenen (33:10):
And showing off.
Here we are again.
Kristina Hoeppner (33:12):
Yes, not to forget the showing off.
Antje Koenen (33:14):
It is called 'showcasing', and 'show' is in
the word. So here we go.
Kristina Hoeppner (33:20):
The last question then for you, what
advice do you have for studentswho create their portfolios or
also for your workshopparticipants, the teachers?
Antje Koenen (33:30):
Enjoy. I say to my students, 'if you want to be
proud of yourselves, how do youdo that? When are you proud of
yourselves?' Then we talk aboutthat, and then I say, 'Well,
look at your portfolios. Are youproud of yourselves?' And then
they are. So my tip often is,again, start simple. Don't start
with multitasking, video,whatever. Do something nice. I
(33:52):
often let them create a nicepage. And at the beginning,
content is not as important ascreating something visually nice
because they enjoy it so much.
Then you can say, 'Okay, now thecontent with the visually nice
things together, what does itmean for you?' And they often
say, and that's also my tip forthem, what do you think if you
see something nice and you studyit, does it help? And most of
(34:14):
the times, they say, 'Yes, if Iarrange something or do my - we
call it 'Lernzettel'. Theyalways make pages where they
write everything down, and a lotof sometimes they even do some
nice lettering and stuff. I say,'Well, you just, you know,
transfer it to your portfoliowork, and you have it there for
yourself all the time.'
Kristina Hoeppner (34:30):
Wonderful.
Thank you so much. Now I canonly wish you have a great
school trip that is coming up,because, yeah, you're multi
talented, multitasking all thetime, and still need to prepare
that. So we'd better stop ourinterview here so that you have
time to get all things stillsorted before you have to head
off on Sunday...
Antje Koenen (34:49):
... in two days.
Kristina Hoeppner (34:49):
Thank you so much, Antje.
Antje Koenen (34:51):
Thank you for coming here [laughs].
Kristina Hoeppner (34:54):
Now over to our listeners. What do you want
to try in your own portfoliopractice? This was 'Create.
Share. Engage.' with AntjeKoenen. Head to our website,
podcast.mahara.org, where youcan find resources and the
transcript for this episode. Ournext episode will air in two
(35:15):
weeks. I hope you will tell acolleague of yours about it so
they can listen as well. Untilthen, create, share, and engage.
Welcome to 'Create. Share. Engage.' This is
the podcast about portfolios forlearning and more for educators,
learning designers, and managerskeen on integrating portfolios
with their education andprofessional development
practices. 'Create. Share.
Engage.' is brought to you bythe Mahara team at Catalyst IT.
My name is Kristina Hoeppner.
(00:29):
Today I have an interview inperson, live at a school in
Germany with Antje Koenen, whois an English teacher here. I've
met Anja last year, also inperson in Wiesbaden; today, we
are in Frankfurt at theMax-Beckmann-Schule, but we had
been in touch online, though,emailing and been together in
(00:49):
some webinars before having hadthe chance to meet her in
person. S ince she has beenusing Mahara for quite a while,
I wanted to have a chat withher, and now that we've walked
around her fantastic school thathas a lot of art deco elements,
so it's been really great beingin an actual school building
with fantastic art around, nowwe are sitting in her library
(01:13):
that she manages with one of hercolleagues and students and have
a chat. Welcome to the podcast,Anje.
Antje Koenen (01:19):
Thank you. I'm very excited.
Kristina Hoeppner (01:21):
Antje, can you please tell me what your
role is here at school, andalso, what do you do when you're
not teaching?
Antje Koenen (01:28):
I'm an English and German teacher. We usually have
two subjects in Germany. I'vegot plenty of different tasks
here at school. As you alreadysaid, I manage the library with
a colleague. I do projects withliterature and with authors who
come to read. We have events. Wehave projects with writing
classes and stuff like that. SoI manage that. We also do a lot
(01:51):
of media. So I'm alsoresponsible for part of the
media education at this school.
I'm also responsible for events.
So if we have bigger events,like when we have the A levels,
the celebration, I manage that.
So I do quite a lot of things. Iabsolutely love my job. I do
lots of things because I'm verycurious, which I, by the way,
think that's one of the mostimportant skills a teacher
(02:12):
should have, or competence, tostay curious.
At home, I've got a largefamily. I've got three kids.
They're all grown up now. I'vegot one disabled son who keeps
me well in check, in a way, butit's still very, very nice. I
love singing. I play the guitar.
I'm outside a lot. I ride mybike. I ride my bike to school a
lot. So it's like quite a longway, but I love it. Yeah, it's
(02:34):
that's what I do.
Kristina Hoeppner (02:38):
You are also responsible for teaching other
teachers about Mahara and alsowork for the Ministry of
Education in the state ofHessia.
Antje Koenen (02:46):
Yes, I do. That's also important for my Mahara
work because since 2016, about athird of my time I spend at the
Education Institute, and Iactually give workshops for
teachers. The main thing iseither Mahara or learning, and
we call it 'Lernbegleitung', soanything that supports students
(03:08):
in their learning process.
Kristina Hoeppner (03:10):
When did you encounter portfolios for the
first time? You said you havebeen facilitating workshops
since 2016, but was that yourfirst time that you've learned
about Mahara and portfolios orwas that already much earlier?
Antje Koenen (03:22):
That wasn't much earlier, but it was two years
earlier. It was 2014 when acolleague of mine, who's now my
head, basically in thedepartment, he asked me whether
I wanted to join a bigger thingfor two years working with
portfolios, learning a lot aboutcoaching and supporting
students. It was a mix of mediaplus how to talk to students in
(03:46):
the right way, so answerquestions, strategies,
communication strategies. Iabsolutely loved it.
II still remember that mychildren really started laughing
when I said I'm going to startworking with digital media
because I wasn't able to handlemy smartphone very well at that
time, and I needed help all thetime. I was already quite old,
you know. So I wasn't like oneof the young teachers who does
(04:08):
that. I was quite old. Peoplewere quite surprised, but I
started it, and I just loved it.
I came across portfolios, and Iknew instantly that this is
something that I've been lookingfor, basically, that was a
solution for many things.
Kristina Hoeppner (04:21):
Why was it the solution for things? What
captured your attention in theportfolios?
Antje Koenen (04:27):
The freedom that it offers. I have always been
working with students in a waythat I try to open up, try to
look at their needs, theirskills, what they can offer, and
what I can support. Instead oftop down teaching - I am the one
who knows everything, and youhave to follow my lead. So I was
always looking for projects andother things to do. But where do
(04:47):
you share it? Where do you putyour documentation? Where is it?
Where can you present it? I cameacross this portfolio, and I
will never forget the first timeI went into my class and I just
accounted Mahara. That was 2014.
I came into my then class that Iwas tutoring, and it was, I
think it was my second class. SoI was not so confident, but I
was confident enough to say,"I've just encountered this
(05:10):
brilliant platform. I reallylike it. Shall we try? I have no
idea how it works, but we cantry together."
What did we do? We started withMahara. Many things went wrong,
so we started with only groupportfolios because we didn't
know that there were singleportfolios. Suddenly we ran out
of space, so we couldn't uploadanything. So what did students
do? They started searching andfinding out, and then they told
(05:33):
me, 'Oh, we have to do this andthat.' So we did it together.
The first thing we actually did,was just documenting our class
trip. We put all these picturesup, and that was Dublin. When we
had open house, they presentedit, and they were really happy.
It was great. That's when mylove for portfolio and Mahara
started.
Kristina Hoeppner (05:50):
I'm reminded of what Sigi Jakob-Kühn said,
who started with portfolios inBaden-Württemberg that she also
didn't necessarily knoweverything at the beginning, but
that the students helped her,and the students found out these
things...
Antje Koenen (06:03):
Yeah, exactly.
Kristina Hoeppner (06:04):
... really learned together, and that, I
think, is the nice thing about alot of media and educational
technology that the boundariesof the sage on the stage are
broken up, and you're becomingmore of a learning partner...
Antje Koenen (06:16):
Absolutely.
Kristina Hoeppner (06:17):
... and work things out together.
Antje Koenen (06:18):
That was my aim all along, to be a learning
partner rather than a teacher inthat respect. It just helped me
getting on a level where I cansay, 'Yes, I'm here to support
you. You support me. You'relearning from me. I learn from
you. We can study thingstogether.' And it works. I'm
still learning a lot.
One of the moments where Ithought this is great was
actually when they were helpingme, and after a while I was
(06:39):
helping somebody else, and theysaid, "You know, Frau Koenen,
she can really do things." Itwas not because I was brilliant
in technology. It was justbecause I was trying out, and
they realised, I'm trying outand I can do things. It was such
a compliment at this moment. Ireally liked it.
Kristina Hoeppner (06:55):
Especially for somebody who was labelled as
the non-techy in the family.
Antje Koenen (06:59):
Absolutely, as the one who can't deal with
anything, you know [both laugh].
And it was great. It still is.
Now, people come to me and askme all the time [laughs]. It's
just nice the way you developskills with technology in a way
that is very satisfying as well.
Kristina Hoeppner (07:15):
Sometimes you don't even notice until you
stop, think back, and realise,'Oh yes, I have learned these
things.' And then you can, ofcourse, in portfolio fashion,
also reflect on that...
Antje Koenen (07:25):
Yeah, absolutely.
Kristina Hoeppner (07:26):
... what you've learned and how you
transfer that knowledge, thingsyou learned in Mahara,
transferring them to Moodle, notbeing afraid of that platform,
or any of the other moderntechnologies that might come
along.
Antje Koenen (07:36):
I think one of the biggest and most important
things in being a teacher isbeing pragmatic. You have to
have a lot of pragmatism becauseif you don't, things will fail.
If you're fixed, you get static.
If you get static, things don'twork. So I have to be very
flexible, and one of the thingsin portfolios, for instance,
that I can have times where I doa lot, and I have half a year
where I do nothing. I justaccept it and I embrace it. And
(07:59):
I say, 'Oh yes, now I've workedwith AI, so I need a page where
I can show off what I can dowith AI,' and then for a while,
don't do anything.
I have a picture on myportfolio. We had a celebration
here at school, my 50thbirthday. So we had the
celebration. It was summerholidays, so you get a speech,
and then this picture where Iwatched the speech is on this
(08:19):
portfolio, and it always remindsme of the times when I started
everything. It's really nice tolook at it. I have a few student
portfolios on there as well, soI can look back screenshots. I'm
just getting bit nostalgicsometimes. It's really, really
nice, and I can see my progress.
Same for those students, theysee their progress.
Kristina Hoeppner (08:37):
Yeah, we are making that learning visible.
Antje Koenen (08:39):
Yeah, absolutely.
That's it, this making itvisible. Also on my portfolio at
the first few pages somewhere, Ihave a few quotes I like, and
one of them is Roosevelt. Shesays, "Do something every day
that scares you." I think that'sa great quote to say, 'Okay, I
face challenges and I like them,and I embrace them.' Portfolio
work can really help you withthat. As you start something,
you have a project, you havesomething you're not sure about,
(09:00):
you put your plan down. You say,'I'm planning something. What do
I need?' You have a blog whereyou write about, oh, I don't
know. And then you just make itall visible. It really helps
other people to follow yourprocess and say, 'Oh, maybe I
could do the same. It'sinteresting.'
Kristina Hoeppner (09:16):
The first portfolio that your students
created were group portfolios.
Do you also now have them createpersonal portfolios?
Antje Koenen (09:24):
Yes, absolutely, yes. Usually they create more
personal portfolios than groupportfolios. We use the group
portfolios, of course, as well,because when they collaborate,
it's easier with the groupportfolios, and if they have
bigger projects in the group ofcourse. But what they always do
is they copy the groupportfolios into their own
portfolio, and then they havetheir own evaluation.
Kristina Hoeppner (09:43):
So you evaluate the portfolios of the
students then as well?
Antje Koenen (09:48):
I think the best way to explain it is in my
portfolio work. When I reallyhave a class for a longer time,
they just do the portfolio allthe time. Normally, most people
here use it in a way that I havea task, a bigger one, then they
have this one task, and thenthey do a portfolio with this
task. What I do is, usually Isay, 'No, you have your
portfolio all the time. Wheneverwe do something that is
(10:10):
worthwhile keeping, or somethingyou have written down, or it's a
picture, or whatever, you justput it on your portfolio.'
Kristina Hoeppner (10:16):
Your students create their portfolio
throughout class. Does it meanthey keep one portfolio for an
entire class or for their entireschool year?
Antje Koenen (10:25):
Well, they don't have one portfolio as such. I
mean, you have your profile, andwithin their profile, they have
the unit Shakespeare, then youhave a Shakespeare portfolio.
Within the Shakespeareportfolio, they either have
different pages, or they havejournals, whatever they like,
and within their Shakespearepart, they have tasks, or
sometimes they just haveinformation, or sometimes they
(10:45):
have something else they don'tnecessarily evaluate that. What
they do evaluate is their tasks.
So if they have bigger tasks,like this complex learning task,
usually I say, 'plan, do, check,act', and they have the certain
questions that they shouldanswer, they can also say, 'No,
I don't want these questions. Iwill come up with something
else.' That's fine. But as aguideline, they have these
questions. So they then, if theyhave a bigger task, they have a
(11:08):
planning section, and then theyuse mind maps and other advanced
organisers. They even sometimeswrite something about themselves
or whatever they like. Then theyhave the project itself. So the
outcome, the product, if thereis a product as such, and then
either presentation or a videoor a podcast, whatever they have
produced.
Kristina Hoeppner (11:28):
Do you then also grade their portfolios?
Antje Koenen (11:31):
Yeah, I do, sometimes, not always. I have a
system that when I work withthem for a longer time, and
there are my classes or mycourses that I have for a longer
time, it's usually simply oralmark. So I say 50% of your oral
mark is Mahara, and that's it.
In this way, I grade it withinthe oral mark, I grade their
performance, whether they do thethings, whether there's
progress, whether I can see aneffort. I do not necessarily
(11:53):
always grade the outcome, morethe process.
Kristina Hoeppner (12:00):
Do they then also need to talk about their
portfolio?
Antje Koenen (12:02):
Yes, absolutely.
They often have something like,you know what gallery walk is?
Gallery walk is a method that Iuse quite a lot. You have groups
that are working, and when theypresent their stuff, say you
have five groups or six groups,then you have six stations. You
split the group in half. So halfof the group walks around from
each station to each station,and the other halves present
their stuff. Then you swap, andthen the other half presents,
(12:24):
and the others walk around, andthey usually have feedback
sheets. Then I give them time tolook at portfolios again and
write down their feedbacks forthe portfolios. So they also use
the comment section in Mahara togive their feedback. I'm still
working on that, because thefeedbacks are still like, 'Oh,
you have a great page. Verynicely done.' Typical student
style, which I understandbecause they would never
(12:47):
criticise other students. Forthem, realising that they could
be helpful, that is a step thathard for them, but I'm on the
way [laughs]. I'm still learninghow to do it better in all these
years now.
Sometimes, I really think, ohyes, it's working. And sometimes
I realise, well, maybe that wastoo early. I try to give longer,
(13:08):
nicer feedbacks,forward-oriented feedbacks,
seeing their skills. Incoaching, you always say, look
at the things that work anddon't look at the things that
don't work. I'm really trying tosay in my feedbacks, even if
there is a portfolio which isbare and, you know, ChatGPT text
and stuff like that, I willstill try to find ways of
saying, 'Yeah, you have doneyour first page. You know,
(13:30):
you've created your first page.
That's really nice, and youembedded a picture. Well, next
step, and at least you havefound a good prompt for the
ChatGPT, and so this shows thatyou can manage. It also shows
that you're not giving up still.
You're trying to do something.'So I'm trying to find good ways,
and this is what I'm working onwith the students as well, that
they showcase their stuff, butat the same time, are able to
(13:53):
appreciate others.
Kristina Hoeppner (13:55):
Do you have a reflective framework that you
use or reflection questions thatwork really well with your
students?
Antje Koenen (14:01):
Yeah, I just have a few questions, really, and I
think that works best becauseI've also talked to a lot of
colleagues and colleagues whoare younger. At university, they
are forced to do reflectionwork. If you're forced to do
that, it doesn't work. So I'mtrying to come up with just a
few questions, which are usuallywhat work well, what didn't
work? Well, what am I proud of?
What would I do differently nexttime? Something like that. And
(14:23):
the best question, I think, is,imagine your future self in half
a year's time. What would youlike to say to your future self
now? The outcome is great - whatthey say about themselves
because they totally realisewhat they should maybe change,
but they also are good atsaying, 'I'm quite good at
this.'
Kristina Hoeppner (14:43):
Are you then the only teacher here at your
school that uses portfolios orare they others?
Antje Koenen (14:48):
I think I'm the only one who uses it at a
regular basis, but I have atleast three colleagues who use
it for tasks. I was surprisednow, because Mahara is moving,
so I send a message to all thestudents. And quite a few
students said, 'Well, I need tomove my pages now.' I was
surprised that so many studentsactually have pages. Few
colleagues are using it, not asregularly as I do, but...
Kristina Hoeppner (15:09):
Are they also English teachers?
Antje Koenen (15:11):
One is chemistry and politics. One is chemistry
and mathematics. Two Germanteachers use it, and some
English teachers.
Kristina Hoeppner (15:20):
Wow, chemistry and mathematics. I'd
love to hear how they are usingit in their classes. Do you
know?
Antje Koenen (15:27):
I think a lot of times they just use it for
complex tasks in terms of tryingto explain something. So what
they do usually is that theyhave a task and the students on
the portfolio page, they try toexplain their way of getting
through it and explaining whatthey've done. Sometimes they
also include videos like explainvideos and stuff like that, even
from platforms or from otherteachers who put them on
(15:50):
platforms. And they just findways of documenting their
learning process in mathematics,which I really like, I must say.
In chemistry, they use it, forinstance, for presentations of
processes like if you have fattythings and oily things, and how
the structure and stuff likethat. And I've seen pages of
that. I really like that. Inpolitics, he actually does
(16:13):
things like create a campaignfor a party on a page.
Kristina Hoeppner (16:18):
Project work, documenting the learning, and
then seeing how that can also betransferred in other areas. You
work with a lot of teachersacross the state in your
capacity as facilitator forMahara and introducing the topic
of portfolios to yourcolleagues. How did that come
about? What does the trainingentail?
Antje Koenen (16:38):
It started actually, with the idea of the
state of Hessia to say that allteachers should have a portfolio
in terms of digital mediaeducation, media education in
general. It was a law, actually,in 2017, but it was voluntarily.
You can do it, but you don'thave to. So nobody did it. But
the Teachers Academy said,'Okay, we need workshops for
(17:00):
that because if people have tostart using portfolios, they
need to know how, and werecommend Mahara because it was
already there.'So we give workshops for
teachers who are interested indoing their portfolio work with
Mahara. We need to show teachersthat you can use Mahara at
school at the same time, whenyou're using it for your own
portfolio. If you can usesomething at work, you also use
(17:21):
it for your own stuff. This ishow we develop the whole idea of
workshops.
We do a lot of workshops thatare only one and a half hours
long, which basically just showhow Mahara works and give some
examples. But we also do longerthings, like three afternoons
with a task for next time, whichincludes coaching, supportive
(17:44):
questions, feedback, growthmindset. All these things are
included. So we combineportfolio with Mahara, with
'Lernbegleitung', i.e.
process-oriented learning. Thenwe usually have schools who book
that, and then they have, likethree afternoons.
We have a lot of online sessionswhere we just say, 'Okay, you
want to have a look intoportfolios? Go ahead, we show
(18:04):
you how.' Then there is the nextsession that focuses, for
instance, on literature andportfolio.
Kristina Hoeppner (18:11):
What did you do with your teachers then in
that workshop?
Antje Koenen (18:13):
We had this roadmap idea. So 'Macbeth' is
new in the curriculum now. Wehad "Othello" for a long time,
Shakespeare's 'Othello', and nowit's 'Macbeth'. And I showed
them how I work with sonnetswith portfolios, gave them ideas
about Macbeth, and we alsobrainstormed a lot of ideas, and
we were always trying to combinethe idea of this portfolio with
(18:34):
Shakespeare's work and complexlearning tasks.
I have a complex learning taskfor sonnets, for instance, which
I showed them, where thestudents first learn a bit about
sonnets, and then they have tochoose their own sonnet. They
have to explain it. That's onetask, and then they have to
recite it. How they do isentirely up to them. So they
choose the sonnet out of 154sonnets by Shakespeare. They
(18:56):
choose one. They decide on howthey come across it, they decide
on how they want to explain it,and they decide on how to recite
it, or whether they combineeverything in one go. I had
podcasts, pictures, I haddrawings, I had a video. I just
try and open up the minds of theteachers who work with that to
say, portfolio enables you towork individually in a very
(19:20):
broad sense, in a very sense ofnot telling them exactly what to
do, but giving them theirfreedom because they document
the work.
In the end, students can decidewhether you should see the
portfolio in the process orwhether you should see it in the
end. I always say, 'If you wantme to support you, I need to see
the process.' So we havedeadlines in between where they
can show me their work, and thenI give feedback in between. Or
(19:43):
we also go and say, 'Okay, shareit with a group. Or start with a
group portfolio, whatever youlike,' and then the others can
always look at your portfoliosin between, get their own ideas,
and they did. They said they hadideas because others had ideas.
Some, for instance, said, 'Oh,we had good contents, but our
page looked terrible. Then welooked at the other pages, and
then they thought, Oh, they'reso creative. So rearranged
(20:04):
everything.'This is the idea of sharing,
working, sharing, getting moreideas, being inspired. I just
try to open up other teachers'mind of embracing that. It's
hard for teachers because wewant to be in control. Lot of
people would say, 'Yes, I haveto be, because I've got all
these things that I have tofulfill - 'Lehrplan'
(curriculum), you know, allthese things. Yeah, but I say
(20:27):
'What? I'm working at a SixthForm College, which means I get
evaluated every year. Everycourse I have ends up in a final
exam, which is a written examwith certain tasks. If my work
wouldn't work, they'd fail,wouldn't they, but they don't.'
I always say, 'they are notbetter than others, but they're
also not worse.' So I docompletely different things, but
(20:47):
the outcome is still okay, whichmeans it works.
Kristina Hoeppner (20:52):
Your students have that bigger freedom and
also work in that learningcommunity where they learn from
each other. So from what I'veheard is that your students do
share their portfolios, not justwith you, but also fellow
students to get that feedback,not only because you tell them
to give the feedback, but alsobecause they want to learn them
from each other.
Antje Koenen (21:13):
And you have things like, I often start in
11th grade with writing littletexts, and they write their own
short stories. They're reallykeen on it. I mean, you could
say, 'now all ChatGPT writesit.' No, no, no, they like it.
We have comments like, "Whydon't you just start writing
novels because that's whatyou're obviously good at"
[laughs]. I just yeah, thingslike that. Isn't that wonderful?
Just appreciating what theothers are doing.
(21:35):
A lot of times you get thingslike, 'Wow, what a good idea. It
didn't even occur to me to dosomething like that next time,
I'll try it out.' Or they comeacross this new digital tool
that they use. 'Oh, yes, what isit, and can you explain?' So we
talk. I think being a teacher -one of the biggest things that
you need, apart from curiosity,as I said at the beginning, the
(21:55):
other thing is the communicationand the relationship with your
students, and I think allteachers would agree on that.
You need to have a goodrelationship, and portfolio work
really helps you with that. Youhave time for the students. You
can talk to them. They work ingroups. They do their tasks.
I don't give them so much'homework'. A lot of the times,
I just let them work in thelessons because I don't want
(22:17):
them to struggle at home. So wetry and do everything we can
basically in the lessons. Ifthey don't work in the lessons,
then they have to do it at home.
Okay, fair enough. Yeah. If theychoose to do so if it's
finished, then when it should befinished, fine. I can walk
around. I can talk to them, youknow? I look at the portfolios
while they're working. I givethem feedback while they're
working. When they struggle, Ihave time.
(22:39):
When I look at the portfolios, Ialso learn a lot about their
skills. I really do. In my ownclasses, I often encourage them
to create their profile page ina nice way, and you learn so
much about whether they havebudgies, or if they're
skateboarding, or if they playthe piano, do things like that.
They do internships in 12thgrade. As a tutor, I always say,
'if you like, make a portfolioof your internship. It doesn't
(23:00):
need to be much. It's okay ifyou just have a few pictures, a
bit of reflection, yourcuriosity, why did you choose
this one? and really niceoutcomes as well' A lot of them
also, are also blogging abouttheir internships. So they have
this diary. If they do that, Ilet them present in class. It's
not compulsory. They can choosewhether they want to do it. They
have to do it in English if it'san English class, then you learn
(23:22):
even more about them.
Kristina Hoeppner (23:24):
What do they like about the portfolio?
Antje Koenen (23:27):
I think they like that they can show off [laughs].
That's one of the things. Ifyou'd ask students here about
Mahara, they always say, 'Oh,Frau Koenen and her Mahara
pages. It's really annoying,'but the more they work with it,
the more they like it. A lot oftimes they say, in 13th grade,
especially, that they can watchtheir learning process. They
actually watch themselvesgrowing. They like the sharing
(23:48):
bits. They like to see whatothers are doing and what they
can do themselves. They alsolike that everything is there
for them. It's a way oforganising themselves. I think
that's a big part of it, thisidea of being I'm organised.
I've got my stuff together. It'smy portfolio. I know where
things are. And it's not onlyfor studying, it's for me just
to look at things again. Oh, wedid Britishness. What was it
(24:10):
again? Did we have an interview?
Yeah, where was it? Oh, yeah, itwas on that page. Oh, Paula had
an interview. Ah, where was it?
Henry had an interview. Wherewas it? I really like that. So
let's go back to Henry's page,which is shared in the group,
and then they look at thisagain, and they really like it.
Kristina Hoeppner (24:25):
Where do you see are the challenges in the
German school system to workwith portfolios effectively?
Antje Koenen (24:34):
That's a bit tricky to answer because I
believe that you can work yourway around it as a teacher, but
you need to want to do it. Oneof the challenges is that we
still have a system - if youwere a teacher 100 years ago,
you would land in school today,you could still teach. This is
also why it doesn't work a lotof times, because people. Are
the framework, the mindset, theold.
Kristina Hoeppner (24:54):
That's why I like the project that you're a
part of at the Ministry, tobreak that up and to make
digital media part of the entirelearning environment, make it
more commonplace, take away thescariness, and also offer those
workshops because we can'texpect teachers to know how a
portfolio works, how to giveeffective feedback, how to do
(25:16):
coaching without any training init. That's what I really like
about your work and the work ofyour colleagues who are
facilitating those workshops,that you make that new part
easier for others, so that theyare more willing to take it on,
can also experiment forthemselves and realise, oh, this
is maybe how I want to work witha portfolio, what Antje has
(25:37):
shown me, I would like to trythat, or I'd like to try
something entirely different, sothat they do have also that time
to experiment and explorethemselves.
Antje Koenen (25:47):
For instance, when we work with Mahara, I give
templates. I make templates forthe teachers, and say, 'you can
use them if you want to startand you're insecure, use a
template here. You've got one.
You can copy it. Your studentscan copy it. They can work with
it.' So we're really trying hardto make it as easy as possible,
as accessible as possible. Butmindset is a problem which can
be overcome by constantlyshowing good results.
(26:09):
Tricky because the framework isnot a framework that you could
say, oh, I can open up and I canwork freely, and I can really do
this and that. You've got this45 minutes lessons, you know, so
and so many times a week, thenyou've got the 'Klausuren'
system, exam system, so you haveto write two exams in an
advanced class per term. Theyhave to be written. You have to
(26:33):
do some teaching to the test inbetween. That, of course, throws
you back in your work. When youhave a project, it takes time.
Your work takes time. That's oneof the biggest problems. But
also, a lot of people say, 'Oh,it all takes time, takes time,
and I have to do my work.' And Isay, 'Well, but your work is
work around it. That is yourwork now.' The bottom line is
still, I teach. As long as youhave this bottom line, 'I teach'
(26:56):
is work, my tip is, get involvedwith your students. Stop
teaching.
Kristina Hoeppn (27:02):
Individualising the work for the students, let
them explore the topic anddocument their learning.
In Germany, data privacy is avery important topic because it
is extremely important toprotect the student data and
also teacher data on anybodyelse's data. How do you ensure
that your students' data is onlyavailable to those that should
(27:25):
see it? Do the students learnabout data privacy and how they
can or should protectthemselves?
Antje Koenen (27:31):
I love that about Germany that we have this strong
data protection, and I think weare exceptional in that case,
which also puts up a lot ofbarriers at the same time, of
course, but still again, bottomline, brilliant. So what do we
do? Mahara, for instance, here,is incorporated in the
'Schulportal', which is a bigplatform which the state of
Hessia offered and supports.
Mahara is incorporated there,and nobody has access to it,
(27:54):
only students. I like aboutMahara, for instance, that your
portfolio is your portfolio. Ifyou don't share it, nobody can
see it, so it's very data safe.
At the same time, you have thepossibilities to share. If you
share it's in a protected group,usually, so you share it with
groups so nobody else can justhave access to it, so it's safe.
(28:16):
If they have the secret URLs - Ipromote secret URLs because I
think to have a Mahara portfolioand be able to show it to
anybody who wants to is apossibility that should be
there. For instance, if you haveinternship reports or something
and you want to show them toyour next job manager, it's good
to have it.
Then we, of course, have to dealwith the question, which
(28:37):
pictures do you have on it? Doyou have any personal data on
it? Do you have your resources?
Where do they come from? Do youhave your CC license on it? So
that's also something Maharadoes that you can have a CC
license, the Creative Commonslicense. So you protect your own
work, and once you protect yourown work, you think about work
of others, and you suddenly knowwhat a Creative Commons license
means. That is something we alsotalk about when we do the
(28:59):
portfolios. We also look atother portfolios and we check,
oh, there's a picture of thefamily on it; should not share
it, or before you share it, makesure that the faces are
invisible, blur the faces, or dosomething else with it because
we have portfolios, forinstance, when we do
Britishness, we often do a lotof your family. Where do they
come from? Multiculturalism. InGermany, we have a lot of
multicultural families withvarious backgrounds, so they
(29:21):
make their pages and show themto others, proud of their
heritage and their culturalbackground. But of course, these
portfolios are difficult toshare because they give so much
away. We talk about it. Also,when they use pictures for their
portfolios, we explain researchpictures, license. You cannot
take every picture, just likethat. Can't. Music. You create a
(29:41):
podcast. Where do you get soundsfrom that you can use? So find
sounds that are free.
Kristina Hoeppner (29:50):
That's great, that you can teach. All of that
in the context of portfolios,and therefore make it an
authentic learning task.
Antje Koenen (29:57):
It's definitely authentic.
Kristina Hoeppner (29:59):
We talked about a lot of things before we
had the interview...
Antje Koenen (30:02):
... but it was worth it, wasn't it?
Kristina Hoeppner (30:03):
Which was really important and so
fantastic to be here with you inperson. So let's look at the
last question before we get intoour quickie answer round, Antje.
What do you wish everybody knewabout portfolios?
Antje Koenen (30:16):
Joy - the joy of sharing work, presenting work,
and the joy of seeing how yougrow.
Kristina Hoeppner (30:23):
You exuberantly [Antje laughs]
demonstrate that joy and alsolive that joy because when we
walked through your schoolbuilding, students just came up
to you, talk to you aboutthings, talk to you about their
problems, immediately knowingthat they can talk to you, that
you have an open ear, that youreally also want to engage with
them and that was absolutelygreat to see.
Antje Koenen (30:43):
Thank you[laughs].
Kristina Hoeppner (30:44):
Now to our last three questions. Which
words do you use to describeportfolio work?
Antje Koenen (30:49):
Portfolio work is rewarding because you see
growth. It's also rewardingbecause you document something,
and you get organised, and youalso keep focused because you've
got something to focus on. Andit's also community.
Kristina Hoeppner (31:11):
What tip do you have for learning designers
or other teachers that arecreating portfolio activities?
Antje Koenen (31:17):
Throw yourself into it and just try out and
don't be scared. That's thefirst thing. Enjoy - work with
your students together. You getto know your students. Embrace
that, that you get to know yourstudents, and work with that
portfolio work is something thatgives you time. It takes a lot
of time, but it gives you timeat the same time. And really see
that if you do start with easythings, you know, start with
(31:41):
easy questions. Don't give thema template that is full of
hundreds and 1,000s of tasks andquestions. It's just
overwhelming. Start with yourclass trip. Start with their
profile page. Start withsomething simple. You just move
on from that.
One thing I really have to saybecause it's something a
colleague of mine, Jannetje, whostarted with me working out, she
had this wonderful explanationof how to change tasks. She
(32:04):
said, 'Okay, imagine you have anEnglish book and you want to do
the past tense. You have aschool book. There are three
pictures, Paul on hisskateboard, Paul eating
something, Paul whatever'. Andthen the task is write down what
Paul did yesterday in the pasttense. No, change it. Say, take
your mobile take pictures ofyour day, put it on the Mahara
portfolio and write down whatyou did yesterday. You need to
(32:27):
know the past tense for that. Soone skill you have to learn. You
have to learn how to uploadpictures on Mahara. You maybe
have to learn how to do agallery. You can also say, okay,
you can use a presentation andput the pictures in to show
them. And then you need to beable to create text. You need to
be able to arrange it on thepage. You need to share the
(32:47):
page. You need to show it toothers. You can give feedback to
others. And suddenly you have acomplex learning task. A simple
task to begin with, but it's awonderful task for the students,
because they like it. It hassomething to do with themselves.
Kristina Hoeppner (32:59):
Exactly. It's that authentic learning. They
can bring themselves in becausethey might not be able to relate
to the activities that Paul did,but they might want to talk
about or show off, about whatthey've done.
Antje Koenen (33:10):
And showing off.
Here we are again.
Kristina Hoeppner (33:12):
Yes, not to forget the showing off.
Antje Koenen (33:14):
It is called 'showcasing', and 'show' is in
the word. So here we go.
Kristina Hoeppner (33:20):
The last question then for you, what
advice do you have for studentswho create their portfolios or
also for your workshopparticipants, the teachers?
Antje Koenen (33:30):
Enjoy. I say to my students, 'if you want to be
proud of yourselves, how do youdo that? When are you proud of
yourselves?' Then we talk aboutthat, and then I say, 'Well,
look at your portfolios. Are youproud of yourselves?' And then
they are. So my tip often is,again, start simple. Don't start
with multitasking, video,whatever. Do something nice. I
(33:52):
often let them create a nicepage. And at the beginning,
content is not as important ascreating something visually nice
because they enjoy it so much.
Then you can say, 'Okay, now thecontent with the visually nice
things together, what does itmean for you?' And they often
say, and that's also my tip forthem, what do you think if you
see something nice and you studyit, does it help? And most of
(34:14):
the times, they say, 'Yes, if Iarrange something or do my - we
call it 'Lernzettel'. Theyalways make pages where they
write everything down, and a lotof sometimes they even do some
nice lettering and stuff. I say,'Well, you just, you know,
transfer it to your portfoliowork, and you have it there for
yourself all the time.'
Kristina Hoeppner (34:30):
Wonderful.
Thank you so much. Now I canonly wish you have a great
school trip that is coming up,because, yeah, you're multi
talented, multitasking all thetime, and still need to prepare
that. So we'd better stop ourinterview here so that you have
time to get all things stillsorted before you have to head
off on Sunday...
Antje Koenen (34:49):
... in two days.
Kristina Hoeppner (34:49):
Thank you so much, Antje.
Antje Koenen (34:51):
Thank you for coming here [laughs].
Kristina Hoeppner (34:54):
Now over to our listeners. What do you want
to try in your own portfoliopractice? This was 'Create.
Share. Engage.' with AntjeKoenen. Head to our website,
podcast.mahara.org, where youcan find resources and the
transcript for this episode. Ournext episode will air in two
(35:15):
weeks. I hope you will tell acolleague of yours about it so
they can listen as well. Untilthen, create, share, and engage.
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