August 20, 2024 • 23 mins
Professor Dr Patsie Polly (SFHEA), Director and Fellow of the UNSW Scientia Education Academy at University of New South Wales in Sydney, Australia, has been using portfolios in biomedical sciences since 2011/12. In this episode she shares how she started with the practice, and why she is a strong advocate for using portfolios not just for authentic assessment tasks.
Connect with Patsie on LinkedIn
Resources
- Patsie's research and publications
- Blog post 'Can portfolio pegagogy be shaken by AI' with Kate Coleman
- Field Guide to ePortfolio
- Presentation 'Linking learning to employability through ePortfolios' with Dr Beth Gordon, Roger Emery, Kristina Hoeppner, and Sibylle Würz
- Riff: AI reflection bot
- AAC&U's High-Impact Practices
- HERDSA - Higher Education and Development Society of Australia
- ePortfolios Australia
- Eportfolio Forum 2024
- AAEEBL - Association for Authentic, Experiential, and Evidence-Based Learning
Related episodes
- Kate Mitchell: Deliberate and programmatic design
- Mark Glynn: Take a programmatic approach to portfolio assessment
- Allison Miller: The portfolio is a process
Click through to the episode notes to access the transcript.
Subscribe to the monthly newsletter about Mahara and portfolios.
Production information
Production: Catalyst IT
Host: Kristina Hoeppner
Artwork: Evonne Cheung
Music: The Mahara tune by Josh Woodward
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Kristina Hoeppner (00:04):
Welcome to 'Create. Share. Engage.' This is
the podcast about portfolios forlearning and more for educators,
learning designers, and managerskeen on integrating portfolios
into their education andprofessional development
practices. 'Create. Share.
Engage.' is brought to you bythe Mahara team at Catalyst IT.
My name is Kristina Hoeppner.
(00:27):
My guest today is Professor DrPatsie Polly who is the Director
and Fellow of the UNSW ScientiaEducation Academy at the
University of New South Wales inAustralia. I had the pleasure of
working closely with Patsie in2016 on chapter eight of the
'Field Guide to ePortfolio' thatwas published a year later, but
(00:48):
prior to that we hadcollaborated on a presentation
at the AAEEBL Annual Meeting in2015. So I've had the
opportunity to learn from Patsiefor a while now and look forward
to our chat today. Thank you formaking time, Patsie.
Patsie Polly (01:02):
Thank you for inviting me, Kristina. This is
fun.
Kristina Hoeppner (01:04):
I'm kind of roping you into things
occasionally...
Patsie Polly (01:07):
What are friends for? I love it.
Kristina Hoeppner (01:08):
Let's try a different medium this time, not
short, fast presentations.
While, of course, I think a lotof people here in Oceania,
especially in Australia, knowyou because you have (been) a
big supporter of portfolios fora long time and are also
incredibly active in ePortfoliosAustralia and also AAEEBL, but
for those of us who don't yetknow you, can you tell us a bit
(01:29):
about yourself? What do you do?
Patsie Polly (01:33):
My background is actually molecular biology. So
what that means is that I am ascientist, a biomedical
scientist, by training, and I'veworked in a lot of research labs
over the years. My disciplineinterest has been in recent
times a whole body wasting dueto cancer, a process called
cancer cachexia. When bringingthat concept of the associated
(01:57):
issues related to cancercachexia and in particular
muscle wasting to undergraduatestudents, it became very
complicated in terms of how toteach that.
So while I built a lot of typesof resources to support student
learning, I really wanted tounderstand if students were
going to understand the conceptstaught in the courses that I
(02:18):
teach. I teach within second andthird year undergraduate,
predominantly biomedical sciencecourses, and I've also
supervised honour students andPhD students, but the core
concepts have to be learnedearly on. So I really wanted
students to understand howreflect on these and how to
think deeply about what theywere learning.
Kristina Hoeppner (02:39):
We'll come back to what you've just said
because that, of course, is thecore of our interview today, but
before that, I'd love to knowbecause I don't think I've ever
asked you that, how did youactually get introduced to
portfolios yourself?
Patsie Polly (02:53):
I was, I guess, approached by colleagues in the
Learning and Teaching Unit atthe University of New South
Wales in 2011/2012. One of thosecolleagues was Kate Coleman, at
the time, and they hadinterviewed me about the type of
assessment tasks that I builtinto courses, which are
authentic assessment tasksbecause I wanted students to
(03:16):
understand what biomedicalresearch was all about, but
pinning that idea of deepthinking about a concept in
biomedical research to a taskwithin their course was my
interest.
Kate and colleagues suggestedthat I join the Mahara pilot,
(03:37):
actually, that was running atthe University of New South
Wales, and I joined that in2012, we were funded, and it was
to bring in an ePortfolioplatform but also a pedagogy and
a type of practice using Mahara.
So that was how I started in2012, and I've just kept going
12 years later.
Kristina Hoeppner (03:59):
Yeah, it's been a long time that your
students have had the pleasureof working with portfolios in
their courses and also forwork-integrated learning, and
that, of course, was one of thefocus areas for us in the Field
Guide in our chapter and thenalso prior to that in the
presentation we had done becauseat that time that was the more
of a new thing that you couldthen follow your students, and
(04:23):
they could reflect on theirpractice.
Patsie Polly (04:25):
Yes.
Kristina Hoeppner (04:26):
Patsie, you've already told us why you
are using portfolios with yourstudents. What does that look
like for them?
Patsie Polly (04:33):
Okay, so I have to say at this point, I'm not using
a portfolio system. I'm using aportfolio pedagogy within our
LMS, which happens to be Moodle.
So the idea is to connect areflective piece back to an
authentic assessment task thatstudents have engaged with. The
whole idea of introducingreflective practice to students
(04:56):
who are science undergraduatesis that we, as a science tribe,
actually struggle withreflective practice. That's
something we need to developover time because we need to be
able to think critically, weneed to be able to troubleshoot,
and we need to be able to makesense of the data and the
experimental outcomes that wegenerate. So without having that
(05:17):
deep understanding of what we'redoing and what it means, it's
hard to go further in ourcareers. So I wanted to start
very early in second and thirdyear courses to get students
going. Actually, we did start inthird year, and then we moved
back to second year and intohonours. It's been an
interesting journey.
Kristina Hoeppner (05:38):
How are you supporting then your students in
their reflective practice? Doyou give them guidelines? Do you
have a framework for that? Howdoes it work?
Patsie Polly (05:47):
It all started with a series of, I think, it
was six scaffold questions toget them going with the
reflective practice. It startedoff as a research project. I was
interested in how thescaffolding would work, and it
worked quite well. Then studentswere feeding back this is too
much, too many questions. So Ireduced the questions to, I
(06:08):
think, two or three keyquestions and with time actually
removed all the questions andjust added a few word prompts to
get students started.
Now I've created a reflectiverubric. It's got a very detailed
set of criteria, but I don'trelease that to the students.
That actually causes a lot of, Iguess, push back. "Why haven't
(06:31):
we got something to guide usin?" The question I always ask
is, "Don't you want to writeabout something from your
personal and professionalperspective that's not a
formula? Let's just hear whatyou think. There's no right or
wrong answer here. This is yourpersonal professional
reflection. You may hate whatyou're doing, and that's
absolutely all right. But youneed to validate or substantiate
(06:51):
why you hate that because that'swhat we do in the real world. If
we have problems with what we'redoing, we have to have reasons
for why." I've taken everythingaway. I've taken all the
scaffolding away, and they'restill above to do it.
Kristina Hoeppner (07:03):
Recently, you and Kate, since you've mentioned
Kate Coleman, who's now at theUniversity of Melbourne,
recently, you both have placed ablog post on the university's
website around feedback andgenerative AI. Have you seen
your students actuallyattempting to use a chatbot to
write their reflections?
Patsie Polly (07:23):
I don't think they are using a chatbot because you
can tell, I think, with thewriting. At times I see depth,
and at times I don't see depth.
I don't think that's a chatbotissue. I think that's a problem
of time and also practice. Yes,I know the bots can give good
feedback to students or providea reflective post, but I do give
(07:43):
students a series of prompts orwords that they should be
thinking about. The limit is, Ithink, not more than 500 words.
There's not much you can saythat relates back to that
particular task in 500 words. Soit's pretty directed.
I don't think I've seen chatwriting yet, but if a reflection
(08:03):
comes through through use ofgenerative AI, I would like to
ask the students why. Why werethey offloading something to a
bot rather than relying onthemselves? Because I think they
can do it. This is a smallstakes task. You don't have to
worry too much about writingfrom the heart.
Kristina Hoeppner (08:22):
It is important that they learn that
practice because otherwise theyare not becoming that reflective
practitioner.
Patsie Polly (08:29):
Yes, and offloading that to a machine is
problematic because you're goingto get asked somewhere along the
line, what is the meaning ofwhat you're doing, in the
moment, and if the machine isnot there to help you, it's a
big problem. Although, themachine can help you get coached
in how to write. And that'sokay, as long as you attribute
(08:49):
what you're doing to thatmachine or that generative AI.
The attribution is importanthere. This is the academic
integrity piece. It's not thepoint of making the bot write
something for you. It's about ifthe bot helped you, how did it
help you, and let's talk aboutit.
Kristina Hoeppner (09:05):
It will be interesting to see how that
develops...
Patsie Polly (09:08):
It will be.
Kristina Hoeppner (09:09):
... because there are of course chatbots
that help you reflect, which Ifind do make it sometimes easier
to start with a reflection orreally get away from that
surface thinking of I'm justproviding a summary, which I
think might be a reflection, butactually it's not and then
really dig deeper into that why.
Okay, so now tell me a littlebit more. Tell me a little bit
more, especially when somebodyis not yet so practised in it or
(09:31):
can't really figure out wherethey should be starting with
their reflection if they haven'tgotten any specific prompts. So
I think for that it can beuseful. But yes, as you say, we
shouldn't offload the thinkingpart to the machine because
that's what will become evenmore important that we can think
critically for ourselves.
(09:53):
Patsie, you've said that youhave changed from using very
guided prompts to being a bitfreer for your students so that
they can express themselves. Isthere anything else that you
have changed in your portfoliopractice over the years?
Patsie Polly (10:08):
Not really. Apart from taking away the prompts,
the process of providing a spacefor reflection has been
consistent over the years, andthe process of linkage to an
authentic task has beenconsistent over the years.
That's something that has beenadopted by many courses within
our biomedical scienceprogramme. It's a simple way of
(10:31):
starting. So that's why I keepit there. Then students can
build up to something that theymay write about, for example, in
a discussion of their honoursthesis or PhD thesis.
While the reflection started asa small piece, they learned that
making meaning of what they weredoing was valuable, and then
(10:51):
they could transfer that mode ofwriting to other places like
thesis writing, for example.
While it's not a personalreflection in a thesis writing
genre, you do have to take astance, you have to take a
position and write according tothe way you've thought about the
work that you've generated.
Kristina Hoeppner (11:10):
How have your students taken on the idea of
the reflection, and since youstarted early on when they come
to university and use portfoliosthroughout the entire programme?
Do you see that progression alsoin the students of getting
better at reflection?
Patsie Polly (11:28):
This is the point.
At the moment in the biomedicalsciences degree programme, it is
done course by course. So itneeds a proper programmatic
approach. The students see thisas a coaching mechanism for
critical writing and reflectivewriting. Hopefully, in the near
future, we'll be able to workthat up a bit better. I know in
(11:50):
the medical programme, it's alot more streamlined because
that is a professional degreeprogramme where you have a
really good integration ofreflective practice. But in some
of our science degreeprogrammes, this is happening
course by course. I don't thinkit works that effectively course
by course. An ePortfoliopedagogy, I think, is best
(12:11):
applied in a programmatic orsystemic fashion throughout a
programme because it's aprocess, and a degree programme
is a process.
Kristina Hoeppner (12:23):
That gives the students then the
opportunity to also transferwhat they have learned before
into a different area andcontinue with it.
Patsie Polly (12:30):
Exactly. So in answer to your question, I think
students who have seen thisbefore are quite comfortable.
Students who haven't seen areflective or a request for a
reflective piece in one of mycourses would be uncomfortable.
But the purpose of it is to stopthe discomfort and get more and
more in tune with writingreflectively.
Kristina Hoeppner (12:53):
How do you then also work with other
faculty in your school? Do youhave regular catch-ups where you
discuss things like portfolios?
Patsie Polly (13:02):
It's interesting, it's not regular. When a
reflective piece is about to beintegrated, I get asked a lot
about how to do that. Now at theuniversity, we're talking more
and more about ePortfoliopedagogy and practice. So I'm
talking across the uni, not onlyin my own school and faculty.
Faculty of Medicine has alwaysbeen a big sponsor and advocate
(13:24):
of portfolio practice.
Stakeholders there are not hardto convince, and also in the
arts (13:27):
not hard to convince. Now I'm working across the
university to get more of asystem approach to integration
and implementation, and that'sbeen good. Stakeholders come and
ask as they need it. Once all ofthis gets ironed out, we'll be
able to have more of astandardised approach.
Kristina Hoeppner (13:49):
That'll also give you then a bit more support
in implementing portfolios,trying new things out, and
working with others to explorethe space.
Patsie Polly (13:58):
Yeah, I mean, I'm still there. I refuse to let go
of the pedagogy. Big fan, and itebbs and flows this portfolio
interest, let's call it for it,but it's still there because
it's a high impact practice thatcan't be ignored.
Kristina Hoeppner (14:12):
Also I think with the professionalisation and
lots of professions needing tocreate something that resembles
a portfolio, it will be amainstay, and we don't just see
that with teachers and withnurses, with doctors, all who
have professional frameworks,but also bet many others that
they need to demonstrate whatthey have actually been doing
(14:35):
and need to demonstrate thatthey can learn from what they
have been doing.
Patsie Polly (14:40):
Yeah, it happens a lot. I was at HERDSA, and we
were talking about theprofessional degree programmes
in health science need to have aportfolio of activities that's
visible to be accredited, to bean exercise physiologist or a
nurse or whatever it might be,in terms of professions.
Kristina Hoeppner (14:59):
So Patsie, what excites you most right now
about portfolios? You have beenpractising with portfolios since
2012, and so 12 years on, whatkeeps you going?
Patsie Polly (15:13):
At present, it's a whole talk about programmatic
assessment, systemic assessment,the call for assessment
structure review in light of AI.
So for me, AI has been aninteresting game changer.
Everyone's sort of fearful, butit's change. You know, when the
internet came in, everyone wasworried about that. Same idea.
AI is in there, but it's a tool,it's a practice, it's a way of
(15:36):
engaging with technology that wehave to get used to. The AI has
probably rocked it or catalysedthe system a bit to get us
thinking properly aboutprogrammatic assessment and
systemic assessment. I thinkportfolios are perfectly place
for this. It's a good thing forus, I think, as a solution or a
way forward for recognisingareas of authentic learning for
(16:00):
students, and how it can becaptured in a system, an
ecosystem at the university. I'mexcited about that. I hope it
really has its day. I hope theePortfolio has come to save the
day.
Kristina Hoeppner (16:15):
Not just for courses, but I mean, you've also
been using it for careerdevelopment, and it is for
learning, for assessment, forprofessional certifications, so
many different use cases that wecan think of, so that it should
be in all of them and should bepresent everywhere.
I'll also add links to theresources that you mentioned,
including also the high impactpractice, because that is
(16:37):
terminology that comes fromAAC&U in the United States, the
American Association of Collegesand Universities. Is there
anything though that you wouldlike to be able to do with
portfolios that you currentlycan't?
Patsie Polly (16:52):
We've always talked about badging systems
sitting within portfolios, and Ido love badging systems. But I
would love to see a warranted,data rich badging system that is
integrated into a portfolio. Sowe have the concept of badges
coming in, but there are thingsthat we can do with badges and
(17:12):
have data sets that sit behindthem that create more meaning to
that icon. I think that's veryimportant.
I'd also like to see a betternetworking of artefacts across
the portfolio. An ePortfolio isstill a little bit too linear in
my liking. I'd prefer to be ableto take artefacts from many
(17:32):
areas within the portfolio andnot so much rework them or
re-imagine them, but talk aboutthem as this crystallised set of
things that have happened for astudent. That light bulb moment
may not have happened from oneevent, it would have happened
from a few things comingtogether. Learning is
integrated. So I'd like to seethat. I don't know how it's
(17:53):
going to happen. I don't know ifit's just a system of tagging,
tagging various artefacts tobring them together, to
reposition them, to support acase that students may make for
learning that might be the wayto go. But I'd like to see that.
Kristina Hoeppner (18:07):
Maybe also some visualisation so that once
you've tagged your content, youcan see the connections between
it. Maybe that's also an areawhere AI can then help to
surface some of those thingsthat you don't necessarily see
immediately yourself, especiallywhen you have lots and lots of
artefacts in your personalportfolio space to surface that
(18:29):
so that we can then reflect onit.
Patsie Polly (18:32):
I agree. I mean, that's where the AI can be the
partner, and you know, work withthe user to enhance their
portfolio of pedagogy orportfolio system.
Kristina Hoeppner (18:43):
Is there anything else you'd like to
share that we have not yettouched on?
Patsie Polly (18:49):
I think the bit that I love the most is that
portfolios come in and out offashion, but they're still here.
I don't know, it's consistent inthat the message is, it's a high
impact practice. It can beshaped according to the need,
and I think that's why it comesin and out of fashion. That
formative cycle that Kate and Italked about in our blog is
(19:10):
about keeping that learning realand it's ongoing and it's
authentic and the place where wecan visualise that or where it
can come together is thatportfolio. It's your space. I
love the idea of a portfolio ofpractice and the ongoing aspect
of it. It stays with you. It'syour identity. It stays with
you, and people need tounderstand that this is a
(19:32):
digital identity that they areforming, not just a profile on a
page.
Kristina Hoeppner (19:37):
I think also what you've said earlier,
Patsie, about your portfoliopractice essentially not really
having changed so much becausethe pedagogy is very solid, even
if it comes and goes, you canstill get back into it because
the fundamentals are there, andthat's also why I think it makes
it a high impact practicebecause it's not a fashionable
(19:58):
practice. It's not one of thethings we do for one year and
then forget about it entirely.
But no, it stays there. It iscontinuously important, it just
comes down to how much it isthen also being used at the
different institutions.
Patsie Polly (20:13):
Agreed. It's very versatile in its usefulness. It
depends on the practitioner andhow they apply it in their
classroom or their programme,but it has many aspects that are
useful.
Kristina Hoeppner (20:24):
That takes us to our quick answer round now,
Patsie. The last three questionsfor you for today, but I also
look forward to catching up withyou in one way or another at the
upcoming Eportfolio Forum. Butnow, last three questions for
you, Patsie. Which words do youuse to describe portfolio work?
Patsie Polly (20:44):
I've got engaging, it's habitual, and it's
transformable. But I also liketo talk about identity. For me,
it's a big identitying piece.
Kristina Hoeppner (20:54):
What tip do you have for learning or
education designers orinstructors who create portfolio
activities?
Patsie Polly (21:03):
The simplest thing, which is exactly what
I've done is have a task, be itauthentic or not, an authentic
is a better task, authenticassessment task, and link an
activity to it, whether it's anevaluation or reflection, it
could be anything as long asit's linked to that task so
students start to make sense ofwhat that task could mean or
(21:24):
what effect it had on them aslearners.
Kristina Hoeppner (21:27):
Now, on the other side, what advice do you
have for portfolio authors, forour learners and students?
Patsie Polly (21:35):
As Kate and I mentioned in our blog, it's not
a sprint, it's a marathon. It'sprocess driven, it's ongoing, it
produces deep thinking becauseas a process you have to keep
working at it. The more you workat something, the deeper your
understanding gets. Deepthinking produces deep doing. In
(21:57):
the end, in order to produce asound, high quality product, one
needs to invest in a robust,continuous process. That's what
underpins the ePortfolioprocess.
Kristina Hoeppner (22:09):
That actually also mirrors what Allison Miller
had said recently in her podcastepisode that it is also a
process for her. So it's reallygood to have that reiterated
because oftentimes, of course,we do focus more on the product
than the passes, but in thiscase, the process is actually
the important thing.
Patsie Polly (22:28):
It takes time, but it's worthwhile.
Kristina Hoeppner (22:30):
Speaking of time, thank you so much, Patsie,
for yours, for spending part ofyour day with me and then in
extension also with ourlisteners so that we can learn
from you and see also as anexample of how portfolios can be
used in biomedicine. Thank youso much.
Patsie Polly (22:50):
Thank you, Kristina.
Kristina Hoeppner (22:52):
Now over to our listeners. What do you want
to try in your own portfoliopractice? This was 'Create.
Share. Engage.' with Dr PatsiePolly. Head to our website
podcast.mahara.org where you canfind resources and the
transcript for this episode.
This podcast is produced byCatalyst IT, and I'm your host
(23:15):
Kristina Hoeppner, Project Leadand Product Manager of the
portfolio platform Mahara. Ournext episode will air in two
weeks. I hope you'll listenagain and tell a colleague about
our podcast so they cansubscribe. Until then, create,
share, and engage.
Welcome to 'Create. Share. Engage.' This is
the podcast about portfolios forlearning and more for educators,
learning designers, and managerskeen on integrating portfolios
into their education andprofessional development
practices. 'Create. Share.
Engage.' is brought to you bythe Mahara team at Catalyst IT.
My name is Kristina Hoeppner.
(00:27):
My guest today is Professor DrPatsie Polly who is the Director
and Fellow of the UNSW ScientiaEducation Academy at the
University of New South Wales inAustralia. I had the pleasure of
working closely with Patsie in2016 on chapter eight of the
'Field Guide to ePortfolio' thatwas published a year later, but
(00:48):
prior to that we hadcollaborated on a presentation
at the AAEEBL Annual Meeting in2015. So I've had the
opportunity to learn from Patsiefor a while now and look forward
to our chat today. Thank you formaking time, Patsie.
Patsie Polly (01:02):
Thank you for inviting me, Kristina. This is
fun.
Kristina Hoeppner (01:04):
I'm kind of roping you into things
occasionally...
Patsie Polly (01:07):
What are friends for? I love it.
Kristina Hoeppner (01:08):
Let's try a different medium this time, not
short, fast presentations.
While, of course, I think a lotof people here in Oceania,
especially in Australia, knowyou because you have (been) a
big supporter of portfolios fora long time and are also
incredibly active in ePortfoliosAustralia and also AAEEBL, but
for those of us who don't yetknow you, can you tell us a bit
(01:29):
about yourself? What do you do?
Patsie Polly (01:33):
My background is actually molecular biology. So
what that means is that I am ascientist, a biomedical
scientist, by training, and I'veworked in a lot of research labs
over the years. My disciplineinterest has been in recent
times a whole body wasting dueto cancer, a process called
cancer cachexia. When bringingthat concept of the associated
(01:57):
issues related to cancercachexia and in particular
muscle wasting to undergraduatestudents, it became very
complicated in terms of how toteach that.
So while I built a lot of typesof resources to support student
learning, I really wanted tounderstand if students were
going to understand the conceptstaught in the courses that I
(02:18):
teach. I teach within second andthird year undergraduate,
predominantly biomedical sciencecourses, and I've also
supervised honour students andPhD students, but the core
concepts have to be learnedearly on. So I really wanted
students to understand howreflect on these and how to
think deeply about what theywere learning.
Kristina Hoeppner (02:39):
We'll come back to what you've just said
because that, of course, is thecore of our interview today, but
before that, I'd love to knowbecause I don't think I've ever
asked you that, how did youactually get introduced to
portfolios yourself?
Patsie Polly (02:53):
I was, I guess, approached by colleagues in the
Learning and Teaching Unit atthe University of New South
Wales in 2011/2012. One of thosecolleagues was Kate Coleman, at
the time, and they hadinterviewed me about the type of
assessment tasks that I builtinto courses, which are
authentic assessment tasksbecause I wanted students to
(03:16):
understand what biomedicalresearch was all about, but
pinning that idea of deepthinking about a concept in
biomedical research to a taskwithin their course was my
interest.
Kate and colleagues suggestedthat I join the Mahara pilot,
(03:37):
actually, that was running atthe University of New South
Wales, and I joined that in2012, we were funded, and it was
to bring in an ePortfolioplatform but also a pedagogy and
a type of practice using Mahara.
So that was how I started in2012, and I've just kept going
12 years later.
Kristina Hoeppner (03:59):
Yeah, it's been a long time that your
students have had the pleasureof working with portfolios in
their courses and also forwork-integrated learning, and
that, of course, was one of thefocus areas for us in the Field
Guide in our chapter and thenalso prior to that in the
presentation we had done becauseat that time that was the more
of a new thing that you couldthen follow your students, and
(04:23):
they could reflect on theirpractice.
Patsie Polly (04:25):
Yes.
Kristina Hoeppner (04:26):
Patsie, you've already told us why you
are using portfolios with yourstudents. What does that look
like for them?
Patsie Polly (04:33):
Okay, so I have to say at this point, I'm not using
a portfolio system. I'm using aportfolio pedagogy within our
LMS, which happens to be Moodle.
So the idea is to connect areflective piece back to an
authentic assessment task thatstudents have engaged with. The
whole idea of introducingreflective practice to students
(04:56):
who are science undergraduatesis that we, as a science tribe,
actually struggle withreflective practice. That's
something we need to developover time because we need to be
able to think critically, weneed to be able to troubleshoot,
and we need to be able to makesense of the data and the
experimental outcomes that wegenerate. So without having that
(05:17):
deep understanding of what we'redoing and what it means, it's
hard to go further in ourcareers. So I wanted to start
very early in second and thirdyear courses to get students
going. Actually, we did start inthird year, and then we moved
back to second year and intohonours. It's been an
interesting journey.
Kristina Hoeppner (05:38):
How are you supporting then your students in
their reflective practice? Doyou give them guidelines? Do you
have a framework for that? Howdoes it work?
Patsie Polly (05:47):
It all started with a series of, I think, it
was six scaffold questions toget them going with the
reflective practice. It startedoff as a research project. I was
interested in how thescaffolding would work, and it
worked quite well. Then studentswere feeding back this is too
much, too many questions. So Ireduced the questions to, I
(06:08):
think, two or three keyquestions and with time actually
removed all the questions andjust added a few word prompts to
get students started.
Now I've created a reflectiverubric. It's got a very detailed
set of criteria, but I don'trelease that to the students.
That actually causes a lot of, Iguess, push back. "Why haven't
(06:31):
we got something to guide usin?" The question I always ask
is, "Don't you want to writeabout something from your
personal and professionalperspective that's not a
formula? Let's just hear whatyou think. There's no right or
wrong answer here. This is yourpersonal professional
reflection. You may hate whatyou're doing, and that's
absolutely all right. But youneed to validate or substantiate
(06:51):
why you hate that because that'swhat we do in the real world. If
we have problems with what we'redoing, we have to have reasons
for why." I've taken everythingaway. I've taken all the
scaffolding away, and they'restill above to do it.
Kristina Hoeppner (07:03):
Recently, you and Kate, since you've mentioned
Kate Coleman, who's now at theUniversity of Melbourne,
recently, you both have placed ablog post on the university's
website around feedback andgenerative AI. Have you seen
your students actuallyattempting to use a chatbot to
write their reflections?
Patsie Polly (07:23):
I don't think they are using a chatbot because you
can tell, I think, with thewriting. At times I see depth,
and at times I don't see depth.
I don't think that's a chatbotissue. I think that's a problem
of time and also practice. Yes,I know the bots can give good
feedback to students or providea reflective post, but I do give
(07:43):
students a series of prompts orwords that they should be
thinking about. The limit is, Ithink, not more than 500 words.
There's not much you can saythat relates back to that
particular task in 500 words. Soit's pretty directed.
I don't think I've seen chatwriting yet, but if a reflection
(08:03):
comes through through use ofgenerative AI, I would like to
ask the students why. Why werethey offloading something to a
bot rather than relying onthemselves? Because I think they
can do it. This is a smallstakes task. You don't have to
worry too much about writingfrom the heart.
Kristina Hoeppner (08:22):
It is important that they learn that
practice because otherwise theyare not becoming that reflective
practitioner.
Patsie Polly (08:29):
Yes, and offloading that to a machine is
problematic because you're goingto get asked somewhere along the
line, what is the meaning ofwhat you're doing, in the
moment, and if the machine isnot there to help you, it's a
big problem. Although, themachine can help you get coached
in how to write. And that'sokay, as long as you attribute
(08:49):
what you're doing to thatmachine or that generative AI.
The attribution is importanthere. This is the academic
integrity piece. It's not thepoint of making the bot write
something for you. It's about ifthe bot helped you, how did it
help you, and let's talk aboutit.
Kristina Hoeppner (09:05):
It will be interesting to see how that
develops...
Patsie Polly (09:08):
It will be.
Kristina Hoeppner (09:09):
... because there are of course chatbots
that help you reflect, which Ifind do make it sometimes easier
to start with a reflection orreally get away from that
surface thinking of I'm justproviding a summary, which I
think might be a reflection, butactually it's not and then
really dig deeper into that why.
Okay, so now tell me a littlebit more. Tell me a little bit
more, especially when somebodyis not yet so practised in it or
(09:31):
can't really figure out wherethey should be starting with
their reflection if they haven'tgotten any specific prompts. So
I think for that it can beuseful. But yes, as you say, we
shouldn't offload the thinkingpart to the machine because
that's what will become evenmore important that we can think
critically for ourselves.
(09:53):
Patsie, you've said that youhave changed from using very
guided prompts to being a bitfreer for your students so that
they can express themselves. Isthere anything else that you
have changed in your portfoliopractice over the years?
Patsie Polly (10:08):
Not really. Apart from taking away the prompts,
the process of providing a spacefor reflection has been
consistent over the years, andthe process of linkage to an
authentic task has beenconsistent over the years.
That's something that has beenadopted by many courses within
our biomedical scienceprogramme. It's a simple way of
(10:31):
starting. So that's why I keepit there. Then students can
build up to something that theymay write about, for example, in
a discussion of their honoursthesis or PhD thesis.
While the reflection started asa small piece, they learned that
making meaning of what they weredoing was valuable, and then
(10:51):
they could transfer that mode ofwriting to other places like
thesis writing, for example.
While it's not a personalreflection in a thesis writing
genre, you do have to take astance, you have to take a
position and write according tothe way you've thought about the
work that you've generated.
Kristina Hoeppner (11:10):
How have your students taken on the idea of
the reflection, and since youstarted early on when they come
to university and use portfoliosthroughout the entire programme?
Do you see that progression alsoin the students of getting
better at reflection?
Patsie Polly (11:28):
This is the point.
At the moment in the biomedicalsciences degree programme, it is
done course by course. So itneeds a proper programmatic
approach. The students see thisas a coaching mechanism for
critical writing and reflectivewriting. Hopefully, in the near
future, we'll be able to workthat up a bit better. I know in
(11:50):
the medical programme, it's alot more streamlined because
that is a professional degreeprogramme where you have a
really good integration ofreflective practice. But in some
of our science degreeprogrammes, this is happening
course by course. I don't thinkit works that effectively course
by course. An ePortfoliopedagogy, I think, is best
(12:11):
applied in a programmatic orsystemic fashion throughout a
programme because it's aprocess, and a degree programme
is a process.
Kristina Hoeppner (12:23):
That gives the students then the
opportunity to also transferwhat they have learned before
into a different area andcontinue with it.
Patsie Polly (12:30):
Exactly. So in answer to your question, I think
students who have seen thisbefore are quite comfortable.
Students who haven't seen areflective or a request for a
reflective piece in one of mycourses would be uncomfortable.
But the purpose of it is to stopthe discomfort and get more and
more in tune with writingreflectively.
Kristina Hoeppner (12:53):
How do you then also work with other
faculty in your school? Do youhave regular catch-ups where you
discuss things like portfolios?
Patsie Polly (13:02):
It's interesting, it's not regular. When a
reflective piece is about to beintegrated, I get asked a lot
about how to do that. Now at theuniversity, we're talking more
and more about ePortfoliopedagogy and practice. So I'm
talking across the uni, not onlyin my own school and faculty.
Faculty of Medicine has alwaysbeen a big sponsor and advocate
(13:24):
of portfolio practice.
Stakeholders there are not hardto convince, and also in the
arts (13:27):
not hard to convince. Now I'm working across the
university to get more of asystem approach to integration
and implementation, and that'sbeen good. Stakeholders come and
ask as they need it. Once all ofthis gets ironed out, we'll be
able to have more of astandardised approach.
Kristina Hoeppner (13:49):
That'll also give you then a bit more support
in implementing portfolios,trying new things out, and
working with others to explorethe space.
Patsie Polly (13:58):
Yeah, I mean, I'm still there. I refuse to let go
of the pedagogy. Big fan, and itebbs and flows this portfolio
interest, let's call it for it,but it's still there because
it's a high impact practice thatcan't be ignored.
Kristina Hoeppner (14:12):
Also I think with the professionalisation and
lots of professions needing tocreate something that resembles
a portfolio, it will be amainstay, and we don't just see
that with teachers and withnurses, with doctors, all who
have professional frameworks,but also bet many others that
they need to demonstrate whatthey have actually been doing
(14:35):
and need to demonstrate thatthey can learn from what they
have been doing.
Patsie Polly (14:40):
Yeah, it happens a lot. I was at HERDSA, and we
were talking about theprofessional degree programmes
in health science need to have aportfolio of activities that's
visible to be accredited, to bean exercise physiologist or a
nurse or whatever it might be,in terms of professions.
Kristina Hoeppner (14:59):
So Patsie, what excites you most right now
about portfolios? You have beenpractising with portfolios since
2012, and so 12 years on, whatkeeps you going?
Patsie Polly (15:13):
At present, it's a whole talk about programmatic
assessment, systemic assessment,the call for assessment
structure review in light of AI.
So for me, AI has been aninteresting game changer.
Everyone's sort of fearful, butit's change. You know, when the
internet came in, everyone wasworried about that. Same idea.
AI is in there, but it's a tool,it's a practice, it's a way of
(15:36):
engaging with technology that wehave to get used to. The AI has
probably rocked it or catalysedthe system a bit to get us
thinking properly aboutprogrammatic assessment and
systemic assessment. I thinkportfolios are perfectly place
for this. It's a good thing forus, I think, as a solution or a
way forward for recognisingareas of authentic learning for
(16:00):
students, and how it can becaptured in a system, an
ecosystem at the university. I'mexcited about that. I hope it
really has its day. I hope theePortfolio has come to save the
day.
Kristina Hoeppner (16:15):
Not just for courses, but I mean, you've also
been using it for careerdevelopment, and it is for
learning, for assessment, forprofessional certifications, so
many different use cases that wecan think of, so that it should
be in all of them and should bepresent everywhere.
I'll also add links to theresources that you mentioned,
including also the high impactpractice, because that is
(16:37):
terminology that comes fromAAC&U in the United States, the
American Association of Collegesand Universities. Is there
anything though that you wouldlike to be able to do with
portfolios that you currentlycan't?
Patsie Polly (16:52):
We've always talked about badging systems
sitting within portfolios, and Ido love badging systems. But I
would love to see a warranted,data rich badging system that is
integrated into a portfolio. Sowe have the concept of badges
coming in, but there are thingsthat we can do with badges and
(17:12):
have data sets that sit behindthem that create more meaning to
that icon. I think that's veryimportant.
I'd also like to see a betternetworking of artefacts across
the portfolio. An ePortfolio isstill a little bit too linear in
my liking. I'd prefer to be ableto take artefacts from many
(17:32):
areas within the portfolio andnot so much rework them or
re-imagine them, but talk aboutthem as this crystallised set of
things that have happened for astudent. That light bulb moment
may not have happened from oneevent, it would have happened
from a few things comingtogether. Learning is
integrated. So I'd like to seethat. I don't know how it's
(17:53):
going to happen. I don't know ifit's just a system of tagging,
tagging various artefacts tobring them together, to
reposition them, to support acase that students may make for
learning that might be the wayto go. But I'd like to see that.
Kristina Hoeppner (18:07):
Maybe also some visualisation so that once
you've tagged your content, youcan see the connections between
it. Maybe that's also an areawhere AI can then help to
surface some of those thingsthat you don't necessarily see
immediately yourself, especiallywhen you have lots and lots of
artefacts in your personalportfolio space to surface that
(18:29):
so that we can then reflect onit.
Patsie Polly (18:32):
I agree. I mean, that's where the AI can be the
partner, and you know, work withthe user to enhance their
portfolio of pedagogy orportfolio system.
Kristina Hoeppner (18:43):
Is there anything else you'd like to
share that we have not yettouched on?
Patsie Polly (18:49):
I think the bit that I love the most is that
portfolios come in and out offashion, but they're still here.
I don't know, it's consistent inthat the message is, it's a high
impact practice. It can beshaped according to the need,
and I think that's why it comesin and out of fashion. That
formative cycle that Kate and Italked about in our blog is
(19:10):
about keeping that learning realand it's ongoing and it's
authentic and the place where wecan visualise that or where it
can come together is thatportfolio. It's your space. I
love the idea of a portfolio ofpractice and the ongoing aspect
of it. It stays with you. It'syour identity. It stays with
you, and people need tounderstand that this is a
(19:32):
digital identity that they areforming, not just a profile on a
page.
Kristina Hoeppner (19:37):
I think also what you've said earlier,
Patsie, about your portfoliopractice essentially not really
having changed so much becausethe pedagogy is very solid, even
if it comes and goes, you canstill get back into it because
the fundamentals are there, andthat's also why I think it makes
it a high impact practicebecause it's not a fashionable
(19:58):
practice. It's not one of thethings we do for one year and
then forget about it entirely.
But no, it stays there. It iscontinuously important, it just
comes down to how much it isthen also being used at the
different institutions.
Patsie Polly (20:13):
Agreed. It's very versatile in its usefulness. It
depends on the practitioner andhow they apply it in their
classroom or their programme,but it has many aspects that are
useful.
Kristina Hoeppner (20:24):
That takes us to our quick answer round now,
Patsie. The last three questionsfor you for today, but I also
look forward to catching up withyou in one way or another at the
upcoming Eportfolio Forum. Butnow, last three questions for
you, Patsie. Which words do youuse to describe portfolio work?
Patsie Polly (20:44):
I've got engaging, it's habitual, and it's
transformable. But I also liketo talk about identity. For me,
it's a big identitying piece.
Kristina Hoeppner (20:54):
What tip do you have for learning or
education designers orinstructors who create portfolio
activities?
Patsie Polly (21:03):
The simplest thing, which is exactly what
I've done is have a task, be itauthentic or not, an authentic
is a better task, authenticassessment task, and link an
activity to it, whether it's anevaluation or reflection, it
could be anything as long asit's linked to that task so
students start to make sense ofwhat that task could mean or
(21:24):
what effect it had on them aslearners.
Kristina Hoeppner (21:27):
Now, on the other side, what advice do you
have for portfolio authors, forour learners and students?
Patsie Polly (21:35):
As Kate and I mentioned in our blog, it's not
a sprint, it's a marathon. It'sprocess driven, it's ongoing, it
produces deep thinking becauseas a process you have to keep
working at it. The more you workat something, the deeper your
understanding gets. Deepthinking produces deep doing. In
(21:57):
the end, in order to produce asound, high quality product, one
needs to invest in a robust,continuous process. That's what
underpins the ePortfolioprocess.
Kristina Hoeppner (22:09):
That actually also mirrors what Allison Miller
had said recently in her podcastepisode that it is also a
process for her. So it's reallygood to have that reiterated
because oftentimes, of course,we do focus more on the product
than the passes, but in thiscase, the process is actually
the important thing.
Patsie Polly (22:28):
It takes time, but it's worthwhile.
Kristina Hoeppner (22:30):
Speaking of time, thank you so much, Patsie,
for yours, for spending part ofyour day with me and then in
extension also with ourlisteners so that we can learn
from you and see also as anexample of how portfolios can be
used in biomedicine. Thank youso much.
Patsie Polly (22:50):
Thank you, Kristina.
Kristina Hoeppner (22:52):
Now over to our listeners. What do you want
to try in your own portfoliopractice? This was 'Create.
Share. Engage.' with Dr PatsiePolly. Head to our website
podcast.mahara.org where you canfind resources and the
transcript for this episode.
This podcast is produced byCatalyst IT, and I'm your host
(23:15):
Kristina Hoeppner, Project Leadand Product Manager of the
portfolio platform Mahara. Ournext episode will air in two
weeks. I hope you'll listenagain and tell a colleague about
our podcast so they cansubscribe. Until then, create,
share, and engage.
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