February 28, 2023 • 43 mins
If you've been strong for everyone else and crave a space where your truth isn't too much - come exhale with us in our exclusive online community and receive the Loneliness Roadmap for free. Join here ✨
*************************************************************************************
After experiencing a traumatic childhood, a divorce, a rape, and parental alienation, Winnie Chan Wang uses her faith and acupuncture expertise to help others navigate dark times and unlock their inner light, while struggling to overcome the shame of being the only one in her family to get a divorce.
"No matter how dark it is, there is light somewhere. Embrace Shadow work to Nourish and Grow Your Power, and make lemonade out of life's lemons."
Winnie Chan Wang is an acupuncturist, Reiki healer, and author of two books, "Honoring Darkness" and "Unlocking Light," which detail her healing journey from childhood trauma, rape, divorce, and parental alienation.
Winnie Chan Wang faced many complex challenges, including childhood trauma, rape and divorce. Winnie was brought to her knees when her daughters refused to spend even a minute with her on Mother's Day. She realized that every complaint she had about her ex-husband was true of herself as well. After her spiritual awakening, Winnie tackled her relationships with her children and leveraged her understanding of brain development and the subconscious mind.
In this episode, you will learn the following:
1. The power of embracing Shadow Work to nourish and grow your power
2. How our relationships are a mirror for our own inner growth
3. The importance of understanding the subconscious wiring of our children and ourselves.
Get in touch with Winnie:
http://www.mindfulhealingheart.com/
Compassionate Transformation Community - Free
Find her book here:
Honoring Darkness: Embrace Shadow Work To Nourish And Grow Your Power
Post Divorce Roadmap - 21 Days of Guided Journaling
Join The list for A Different D Word, our personalized healing program.
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/MyCoachDawn
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/dawnwiggins/
On the Web: https://www.mycoachdawn.com
A podcast exploring the journey of life after divorce, delving into topics like divorce grief, loneliness, anxiety, manifesting, the impact of different attachment styles and codependency, setting healthy boundaries, energy healing with homeopathy, managing the nervous system during divorce depression, understanding the stages of divorce grief, and using the Law of Attraction and EMDR therapy in the process of bu
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
Hi, love, this is Dawn and you're listening to
Dear Divorce Diary with my coach, dawn, where we explore the
post-divorce life and you, thewoman who lives it.
We cover everything from traumaduring and after divorce to
feeling like a stranger in yourown life and the new frontier of
life as a single woman.
We're cozy in for theconversations we've been longing
(00:26):
to have about this new life.
Hi, loves, today I am soexcited to bring to you an
amazing guest, winnie Chan Wang.
She is a beautiful soul and Iam convinced that her and I were
just separated at birth.
(00:47):
There is so much about her workand my work and the
transmutation of our pain thatis so aligned and so beautiful,
and I am so excited to besitting with her right now.
Winnie, welcome.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
Thank you so much for having me.
I'm actually crying right nowfor those who are just listening
and don't know, just becauseyou know when you feel this
divine alignment, wheneverything is coming together
and there's this sense ofoverwhelming joy and gratitude,
(01:24):
just to be here with all of youtoday.
And you know I had some verydifficult challenges in my life.
You know I wrote a book aboutthis.
My book is called HonoringDarkness, and you know I started
with my childhood trauma andthen I had a rape and then I had
(01:47):
a divorce and then I hadparental alienation, and I don't
know if everyone in theaudience know what parental
alienation is, but parentalalienation is that during the
divorce process when one parentsays something bad about the
other parent and then you knowthe trust is broken, causing
(02:12):
that the daughter says I don'twant to have a relationship with
you, you are not my mother andyou have no right to talk to me,
right?
So for me those were some very,very dark times in my life.
You know, i remember spendingMother's Day like eating
breakfast by myself, and Iremember like another Mother's
(02:38):
Day where neither of my daughterwanted to spend 60 seconds with
me, so they wouldn't even eatin silence across from me on a
table for 60 seconds And Winniethis is the power of your
message, because to have movedfrom there to where you are
(02:59):
today in my opinion relativelyquickly right to have
transformed that the deepestpain I can imagine to the power
that you are bringing to ustoday, it's a miracle.
You know it's really funnybecause I love spirituality, I
actually read the Bible everyday.
I absolutely love Jesus.
(03:22):
And I also love Kuan Yin, i loveall kinds of Buddhist
meditation, i love the Tao, theJinyin, i practice the Tao, i
practice yoga, all kinds of yogaphilosophy.
So I'm just a lover ofspirituality.
Same girl, same, okay.
So what I wanted to say was, ifyou picture the Tao symbol,
(03:44):
which has the black fish and thewhite fish and the black dot
and the white dot, you willbegin to see the black dot, you
will begin to notice somethingwhich is within the black fish.
There is a white dot, and whatthat means is, no matter how
(04:05):
dark it is, there is lightsomewhere.
And that's why the full titleof my book is called Embrace
Shadow Work to Nourish and GrowYour Power, because it is when
you are navigating the darktimes that you discover your
(04:26):
source light.
And it's so funny because nowI'm writing my second book.
It's called Unlocking Light.
So my first book is about allthe shadow that I faced after
the divorce And then now I'mdoing the white fish part.
Speaker 1 (04:45):
right, That has the spot of dark in it.
Speaker 2 (04:49):
Right.
So basically and life is justthat cycle We have this hero's
journey.
When we go dark and when wecome back up, we serve humanity,
And then there will be anotherchallenge And then we can just
get stronger and stronger.
And the message is really to mybeloved audience is a message
(05:12):
of hope and resilience, knowingthat there is this really deep
source power that is in us.
Always with us.
Speaker 1 (05:24):
Always Exactly And it is, and not be extinguished.
Speaker 2 (05:28):
Exactly, exactly.
It was really funny because myacupuncture mentor one time I
was really devastated after thedivorce and having the parental
alienation And I'm crying Andthen he's like Winnie cut it.
Speaker 1 (05:49):
I freaking love that.
Speaker 2 (05:51):
Exactly Because, as an acupuncturist, we insert
needles into people, right?
So he just wanted to penetratemy bullshit.
He's still.
He's still.
So you know what he said.
He said Winnie, let me tell yousomething.
I said okay, what is it?
Who you are cannot be broken,right, right.
(06:12):
The word heartbroken is notactually possible because you
know so.
In the heart sutra, which isthe Buddhist text, it talks
about who we really are cannotbe born and cannot die Right.
Speaker 1 (06:32):
Virgil beings having a human experience.
Speaker 2 (06:35):
Exactly, exactly.
So you know, my acupuncturementor is like cut your bullshit
.
Okay, winnie, you're.
You cannot be heartbroken.
Okay, That is how do you say it?
It's kind of like this The sunis always there.
You might not see it becauseit's covered by dark clouds, but
(06:58):
the sun is always there.
Speaker 1 (06:58):
It doesn't cease to be Right.
Yeah, in EMDR therapy, when I'mworking with clients around
their psyche right, it's theself.
The self is eternal, it'sunaffected by the traumas, it's
untouched, it's our highestawareness, right, and we talk
about finding the self in thepain, because it's stable, it's
short, it's steady.
Speaker 2 (07:18):
Yeah, exactly, and you know the way I love EMDR and
explain it to other people.
a lot of my clients.
they come to me because Ispecialize in removing trauma
from the body because, thetrauma is stored in the physical
organs like heart, lung, kidney, spleen, liver.
(07:41):
So by using acupuncture you can.
It's like hiring a plumber.
I say you, hire me.
You're like hiring a plumber,okay.
Speaker 1 (07:52):
To like unclog the shit Exactly.
Speaker 2 (07:54):
Exactly So.
My job is to diagnose whichpipe is clogged, which organ is
clogged, and then I unclog youright.
Speaker 1 (08:03):
So and our modalities work especially well together.
right, Someone comes to me andunclogs a bunch of stuff from
the mind, and then it can gethung up on its way out right In
the spleen or the kidney orwherever Exactly.
Speaker 2 (08:18):
So a lot of people come to me and they say, oh, can
I really graduate from mytrauma?
And I take a moment and I laughbecause it's like yes and no.
It's like this Can you undo arape?
(08:42):
You know, if you went to warand you lost a leg, can you
unloose a leg?
So there's a part of the traumawhere, if you have a white
sheet of paper and there's inkon it, there's always going to
be ink on it, right.
Like you can't say, okay, therape didn't happen or I didn't
(09:05):
go to war, i didn't lose a leg,right.
It's a part of the trauma thatis real and always going to be
there.
But events are actually neutralAnd what you do with that ink
on the paper?
The belief system about it Youcan make it into the most
(09:26):
beautiful art.
Speaker 1 (09:28):
So what I hear people asking you when they're asking,
can I graduate from my trauma?
is really can I live in anillusion of perfection?
No, no, you can't.
Speaker 2 (09:39):
You know what I call this in our book is we can't
avoid the lemons in life, but wecan make lemonade out of our
life right, and so you know,consider this right.
Is world war bad or good?
I mean, i think most peoplewill say wars are bad.
(10:00):
However, before World War, iall countries women stayed at
home, and it was because everyman that's able to pick up a
weapon was drafted to fight inthe war, and so the women
(10:21):
entered the workforce.
So think about all thegenerations under patriarchy
where women could be, you know,domestically abused by their
husband.
Liberation through loss.
And exactly So, even though,yes, world war was terrible, a
(10:41):
lot of lives were lost, but italso created opportunity, which
is, women entered the workforcefor the first time, and that
created financial independencefor women so they could start
having divorces and leaveunhappy marriages.
Speaker 1 (11:02):
Preach.
I relate to so much toliberation through loss.
I think that's why I love themoment in time of divorce that I
just am so inspired to workwith, because liberation through
loss, it is the truth, it's howI found my highest self, it's
(11:26):
how I started the healingjourney.
I think we share that story.
Speaker 2 (11:32):
Exactly, And that's why everybody needs to book and
work with Coach Don.
You know why?
And they should also work withme and book me.
You know because a lot ofclients come to me and they said
, Winnie, can you help me loseweight?
I said yeah, sure, Okay, but ifyou're going to eat 21
(11:53):
cheeseburger, there's nothing Ican do for you.
The best acupuncturist cannotovercome the fact that you eat
21 cheeseburger.
Speaker 1 (12:02):
Okay, mm-hmm.
Speaker 2 (12:04):
So the body keeps the score.
So you want to see anacupuncturist to help you move
the physical, stuck energy inyour organs, in your shoulder,
your hips, your knees, yourankles.
But if you don't change yourmind, then in three days, you
(12:26):
keep generating more.
Exactly.
The pain is just going to comeback, right.
So everyone should work with aperson like Coach Don so that
they can have the mindset shifts, mm-hmm, so that they stop
generating the junk.
Speaker 1 (12:43):
And everybody should have an acupuncturist, so that
the acupuncturist is like theplumber that helps you fly, so
leaning it out and keep it clean, plus the toilet, exactly
exactly.
I love it When you tell us moreabout your journey through
divorce and that mother-daughterrelationship that you mentioned
, because I know that.
(13:04):
And also, how interesting is itboth of us healers not fully
integrated when we began healing.
Healing work right, we bothhave been functioning as healers
, but not fully integrated.
And then here's the story oftransformation.
It's so beautiful.
I just know that your clientsget so much more from you now
(13:29):
that you've done this work.
Speaker 2 (13:32):
Yeah, thank you for saying that.
So it's really funny because Ibecame a Reiki healer in 2017.
And in the beginning I was justlove and light, okay, mm-hmm, i
was chanting mantras.
Speaker 1 (13:45):
I relate.
Speaker 2 (13:46):
I relate, and that's not to say it's not good because
I was able to put love andlight into the needles, which
made the acupuncture morepowerful.
However, i was still reallyjudgmental And I was telling
everybody what's wrong with themAnd to the extent that my
(14:08):
daughter would call me out, shewould say you say one thing and
do another right?
And at the time it was so hardfor me to believe And one of the
things my daughter kept sayingto me would be mom, you don't
(14:29):
ever listen to me and I don'tfeel like I matter to you, i
don't feel important.
And she said that for years andit was really hard for me to
understand.
But now I understand right,because I grew up with parents
who were always right, right, myfather.
(14:52):
If my father and mother and Idisagree on something, then my
parents are always right and I'malways wrong.
Speaker 1 (14:58):
So relatable So relatable.
Speaker 2 (15:01):
Exactly So.
And as a child, one of my corewounds is that I don't feel
heard, i don't feel understood.
I feel so alone, i feel so likeI don't matter.
Speaker 1 (15:15):
So of course we carry that forward as mothers.
Speaker 2 (15:17):
Exactly, exactly.
So.
it's so funny because here I am.
I remember thinking, okay, if Iever become a mother, then I'm
not going to do what my parentsdid to me, right?
But it's so funny because it'shard.
It's really hard to be sohonest in your shadow.
(15:46):
And it's not until I had adivorce, when my ego was
completely crushed, when Ifinally stopped what I call
spiritual bypassing which ispretending I'm better than other
people because I chant mantras,I meditate, I practice Reiki.
Yeah, exactly.
So what brought me down to myknees was the fact that, okay,
(16:14):
Winnie, you say you practicelove and you practice
forgiveness and you help allthese clients, but look at your
own relationship.
What does the data say?
right, The data says that youdon't have.
Speaker 1 (16:32):
It's not cute, it's not cute, no, no it's not good.
Speaker 2 (16:35):
The report card doesn't look so great.
Speaker 1 (16:38):
But I relate to what you're saying so much that there
are these promises I made withmyself that I was not going to
get divorced and I was not goingto raise my kid a certain way,
and I was right.
And then when we get confrontedwith hard data that says I did
the thing I said I wasn't goingto do, it's like there's a
reckoning there and that, ohmust not be, so I am doing the
(16:59):
thing.
Speaker 2 (17:01):
Exactly So.
The moment My ex-husband said Ino longer want to do the work
to be in a relationship with you, and I think seven days later I
suddenly just had this lightbulb moment when I realized
(17:21):
every single thing I evercomplained about him is in me
right.
So, I love pointing the fingerand blaming him like you're an
angry person No, actually I'mthe angry person.
You're judgmental?
No, actually I'm judgmental.
You're selfish?
No, actually I'm selfish, youknow.
(17:41):
And so it was actually a veryinformative exercise after the
divorce, where I wrote downevery single thing I cannot
stand about my ex-husband, andthen I simply changed the word
he to I.
Speaker 1 (18:02):
You walk us through this exercise in the book.
Speaker 2 (18:04):
Yes, yes yes, and it was so powerful.
It really brought me down to myknees because, of course, every
relationship is a mirror, right?
So my ex-husband is really mymirror in showing me how I'm
(18:25):
angry, i'm selfish, i'mjudgmental And I feel like one
of my core wounds is no matterwhat I do, i'm not good enough
for him, whatever he does.
Speaker 1 (18:40):
It's not good enough for me.
And so, within seven days ofyou two parting ways, you came
to that awareness.
Speaker 2 (18:51):
Yes, i did this exercise of writing every single
thing.
Speaker 1 (18:55):
Amazing.
Speaker 2 (18:56):
I just stand about him and then cross the heave
with the changes.
Speaker 1 (19:00):
I.
And what was that moment likewhen you were sitting with that?
What did it feel like to be inyour body in that moment?
Speaker 2 (19:09):
You know, it was really interesting because I was
hiking and I was at a river, soI stood in the middle of the
river and I just screamed andcried and yelled and just put
all of that, allow the flow ofthe river to move me.
(19:32):
And you know so I actuallywrote the letter standing on my
iPhone, really While I was inthe middle of the river Yes, wow
, wow.
Speaker 1 (19:46):
And so that a moment like that, while it's deeply
painful, there's so much shamein a moment like that that's
moving right.
So much shame.
However, I've always found thesilver lining to that moment to
be so much empowerment, becauseif it's me, I can do something
(20:06):
about that.
Speaker 2 (20:07):
Yeah, absolutely.
But when it comes to shame, Igotta say, nothing beats
parenting shame.
Because the way I look at thisis I can have all this shame
around the divorce.
And let me tell you something Iam the first person to get a
divorce in my generation myparents' generation, my
(20:30):
grandparents' generation.
I come from a culture where youdo not get a divorce.
Speaker 1 (20:37):
And there are some cultural considerations, right
You?
yes, i get that.
Speaker 2 (20:42):
So yeah, exactly, So this day I remain the only
person the token person who hasever gone to divorce.
So let me tell you that thedivorce shame is real.
Speaker 1 (20:53):
It was legit for you.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:57):
It was so bad that I couldn't even tell my parents I
was getting a divorce.
Speaker 1 (21:01):
That makes sense to me.
That makes sense to me thatthat's how powerful, how
physically palpable the shamewas for you.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:09):
So just a funny joke.
You know now, right?
Yeah, i texted them I'm gettinga divorce with John, and then
they called me for the next 10days and I just could not pick
up the phone, couldn't answer No, no, no, that makes sense.
Exactly So.
I couldn't deliver the news, icould only text it And then I
(21:29):
could not pick up the phonebecause I didn't want to answer
the question.
What did he do?
What did you do?
What did you try?
Like I'm like mom, dad, like Icannot answer your questions,
like I need to create thisreally safe container for me
right now.
Speaker 1 (21:45):
To move through this.
Speaker 2 (21:46):
Exactly, exactly.
But I do want to talk aboutparental shame, because to me,
no matter how bad the divorceshame is, that's so yesterday,
because you find a newgirlfriend or boyfriend and it's
(22:10):
a new relationship, right.
But then you know, to me,boyfriend, girlfriend, it's kind
of like a winter jacket.
You take off this winter jacket, you get a new winter jacket.
Hey, you don't have to look atthe old jacket anymore.
Speaker 1 (22:31):
But your children?
in the big book of AA, theycall that a geographical
solution, right?
It's like oh, maybe it's therelationship's fault or the yeah
, the jacket's fault, right, butyeah.
But children is not somethingyou can just write off, you
could just swap out.
Speaker 2 (22:46):
No, you cannot just take off the jacket again in
your jacket.
Speaker 1 (22:49):
You only have little truth tellers with their truth
serum.
Speaker 2 (22:53):
The children.
You don't get to be like tradein a different set of children.
You don't get to pretend youcan just walk away with this
relationship and start a new one.
No, your children.
Speaker 1 (23:07):
It's like the report card of how you yeah exactly So
good.
Speaker 2 (23:14):
Right.
So your relationship with yourchildren, oh, also, to a large
extent, whether your childrenare judgmental, whether they
have compassion, whether theyhave anxiety, depression,
addiction.
Okay, not entirely our fault,but I like to say 20% 20%
(23:36):
percent, that's the parentscontribution.
Speaker 1 (23:39):
Contribution.
Speaker 2 (23:41):
Yeah, yeah.
So you know, of course, i thinkthat you know.
there's this phrase like don'ttake things personally right.
Because, you know, if ourchildren is bullied at school,
well, we don't get to controlwhat happens at school, right?
And then I also believe thatchildren come with their own
(24:02):
personalities and past life,karma and all the incestral
stuff DNA, genetically,spiritually, exactly Yeah.
So we don't get to control ifthere's COVID or no COVID.
Right, we don't get to controlif we're in the lockdown or no
lockdown.
So when our children haveanxiety, i tell my clients
(24:23):
you're 20% responsible, so knowthat you can do something.
But even if you try yourabsolute best, it doesn't mean
that anxiety can go away, evenif you are a rescuer and you put
in everything you got, because80% is beyond your control.
Speaker 1 (24:46):
Their own journey.
Their own journey, yeah, yeah,i have learned this has been one
of my greatest learnings in thelast year is truly like law of
attraction framework the happierI am, the better I am at
regulating my own emotionalexperiences, the more open my
(25:10):
heart is.
She mirrors that.
Speaker 2 (25:14):
Exactly, there's actually science.
Yeah, so, yeah.
So the science is that theprefrontal cortex is not fully
developed until they're 25.
So, literally every time if youhave children under the age of
25, and they're flipping out,they don't even have the
hardware to do it.
(25:37):
So they actually rely on mirrorneurons?
Aha, and so it's all about theparents, it's all about the
parents nervous system.
Yeah, so exactly.
So if the parents is calm, thenthey, their mirror neuron is
(25:59):
going to pick up on our calmnessand they're not going to have
anxiety and react.
That's what I mean.
The parent is 20% responsible.
That's amazing.
Speaker 1 (26:09):
I don't, i can't believe.
I've never heard it that waybefore.
So when we think aboutattachment style, it's not.
Attachment style doesn't justcome from purely attachment
activating events, it's alsojust from being with your
parents, attachment style.
Speaker 2 (26:27):
So it's interesting about this is it's independent
of whether the child has a goodrelationship with the parent or
not, and so what I mean is thisthere's a phrase that says you
are the five closest peopleyou've worked with, and what
(26:51):
that means is we're allspiritual beings.
So that means it's kind of likeokay, if my daughter caught
COVID, she comes home.
I can very easily catch COVIDfrom her.
If my daughter is angry or haveanxiety, i can very easily
(27:12):
catch that.
Right, because things like anger, anxiety, fear, grief, these
things are emotional viruses,Whereas, COVID, you can take a
test and two slides means you'repositive.
Speaker 1 (27:29):
We really should be aware of you know it's kind of
like yeah, what viral load we'reshedding emotionally, whether
it's on the upper end of thescale or the lower end of the
scale.
Speaker 2 (27:42):
Right.
so, for example, if I'mcoughing, I really should stay
home and not give my give mygerms to other people.
So when I'm angry, I reallyshould ground and meditate and
come back to calmness before Ihave a conversation with my
children, Right, because whywould I want to give them my
(28:07):
anger?
You?
Speaker 1 (28:09):
put a quote in the beginning of your book that just
like hit me upside the headthis weekend about when
attachment trumps authenticity.
That quote that spoke about Andyou also put a quote in there
about how the patriarchy hasvalued perfectionism and driving
(28:34):
over groundedness right, andthose two things kind of came
together in my mind this weekend, recognizing how, when I am not
prioritizing groundedness, i'mprioritizing perfection.
How that's affected my daughter, right, that, wow, those are
just such powerful thoughts.
Then she divorces herself fromher own authenticity and she
(28:58):
prioritizes the attachment.
She wants to keep me happy, shewants to keep me pleased.
This is why she cheated on herspelling test last quarter,
right, because she wanted toprioritize pleasing me versus
the authenticity of not knowingthe answers.
And that 20% that I contributedthat caused her to feel
insecure in the attachment andthen shoved down her little
(29:20):
truth.
Speaker 2 (29:22):
I got the good news for you, though.
Tell me She's eight so you canstill help her.
There's time, there's time.
You know, one of my favoritethings to say is a lot of our
wiring, our subconscious, isformed between zero to seven.
(29:44):
So it's really funny because myspiritual awakening the very
first time happened when my kidswere seven and nine.
So I'm like, oh crap, i missedthe window.
Speaker 1 (29:55):
And I was there.
It's closer to be able toharness.
It really is.
Speaker 2 (30:00):
And whenever I have clients come in and their
children and two, you know, theyhave like two year old, four
year old I said, lady, listen tome.
Speaker 1 (30:09):
You celebrate, you celebrate.
Speaker 2 (30:11):
You got to change before they hit seven man,
because if you change now youdon't mess up your kids, and you
know I love my clients becausethey comfort me.
They're like Winnie.
It's better to find this outwhen your kids are 12 than when
they're 22.
And it's better to find outwhen they're 22.
Before that they're 32.
(30:31):
Right Basically it doesn'tmatter, as a parent, whether
your kids are two, 12, 22 or 32,you know the moment that you
realize it's a gift.
It's a gift.
You have an opportunity tochange yourself And when you
change yourself, you will noticea change in them because Even
(30:57):
if they don't like you or theylike you, whatever the
relationship is, there's asoftening.
They are breathing in yourvibration right.
They are marinating right.
It's like am I vibrating love,unconditional love?
Am I vibrating compassion andforgiveness, or am I vibrating
(31:19):
fear?
Speaker 1 (31:21):
I wonder what our listeners realized just now,
about what they're vibrating.
And that is the motivation,that is the empowerment when I
realize, right, i have so muchpower to shift me, i have so
much power to positivelyinfluence the world around me.
But then you know what ourclients say next, right, but how
(31:47):
?
And I love in your book howmuch, how you've built into it
how to face our shadows, how toface our parenting shame, how to
face our wounds and our pain,and to do it in a way that is so
freeing.
Speaker 2 (32:03):
Yeah, a lot of people ask me when shadow work, you
know originally came from KaurYong, and that's the realm of
talk therapy What business doyou have as an acupuncturist?
Why are you writing a book onshadow work?
And I said what you don'tunderstand is 70% of illnesses
come from anger, fear, guilt,shame, all of these things.
(32:27):
Right?
So you know, for example, i hada client and she had limited
eyesight.
She found me on Yelp and saidcan acupuncture help me with
improving my eyesight?
And I said well, i don't knowhow much acupuncture alone can
do, but if you're willing totrust me, then let's give it a
(32:50):
try.
And I kid you not, in onesession her eyesight fully
restored.
Wow, and it's because in thetraditional Chinese medicine,
anger is trapped in the liverand liver opens in the eyes.
So basically what I got to dowith her is unpack what was the
(33:13):
anger.
So it turned out that she hadto give it a voice.
So she had anger with herbiological sister.
They got into a fight and hersister set boundaries with her
and she's like who are you toset boundaries and decide to
abandon me?
You know there's all kinds ofanger.
And so I said hey, listen, doyou want to forgive your sister
(33:38):
and then get your eyesight back,or do you want to stay angry at
your sister and then havedeteriorated eyesight?
And she said I want to forgivemy sister.
Speaker 1 (33:47):
No, no, no, no, no.
Good choice, Good choice, yes,yes.
Speaker 2 (33:52):
And so you know, and this is just one example And so
basically what I realized is Ineed to write a book so that
people who don't get to workwith me individually, or you
know if they don't take my groupcoaching program, you know, at
just $28.
You systematically work, do theexercise the pages at in every
(34:18):
chapter.
You can heal your life.
You can heal so many things.
Okay, recover your hearing.
You know I work with a client.
you know he had pelvic floordysfunction at 25 and he was
actually, you know, had you knowyou're in leakage problem and
(34:38):
you know, and it's like twosession and it's done, and it
really has to do with fear andit's so powerful This shadow
work, i cannot tell you thenumber of like medical cases
that get transformed because ofthe mind and the body are
intrinsically linked.
Speaker 1 (34:57):
You cannot separate them.
Speaker 2 (34:58):
Exactly, and so I'm like everybody listening out
there.
you got to get a talk therapistor a coach like Don, and you
got to go see an agri-punctresslike Winnie.
Yeah, you know you need both,okay, yeah.
Speaker 1 (35:13):
So containers to shift, containers to shift, yeah
, and the beauty of folks likeus who have been doing this work
is we know where to poke right,like that's the thing.
We know where to poke torelease the thing.
Speaker 2 (35:27):
So I happen to be a professor of acupuncture and I
happen to have four sciencedegree, including two from MIT
And so those little pieces ofpaper.
Yeah.
So when I did this, I reallywant to provide a systematic
framework to shadow work,Because one of the things I
(35:49):
realized is sometimes I haveclients who've had anxiety for
20 years and they've had a talktherapist for 20 years but they
still haven't graduated.
Speaker 1 (36:01):
And that's the old way.
That's the old way.
Speaker 2 (36:04):
Yeah.
The answer, i think, ispartially because The talk
therapist cannot take you whereyou are not ready to go, because
our ego doesn't want that pain.
It's hard for us to open thatpart and go in there and look
(36:31):
inside the closet where themonster is hiding.
And that's why I have a grouphealing program, because imagine
if you have 10 people together,one person is sharing their
breakthrough and then that canactually heal you because you
(36:54):
start to relate to that person.
Speaker 1 (36:56):
So it's like catching that vibe too, Like how you
talked about transmitting avirus, transmitting anger.
But we also transmit positivity, we transmit hope, we transmit
whatever we're vibrating at, wetransmit.
So first of all, it's powerfulto not have to go in the scary
room alone.
When we go as a group it justfeels less scary.
(37:16):
And then when we're in thescary room and somebody all of a
sudden catches a vibration ofhope or optimism or healing,
that's contagious.
Speaker 2 (37:26):
Exactly So.
I think that, if you've been Imean, i personally love
individual therapy, becausethere's nothing quite like
having somebody hold your hands.
But then if you've never triedgroup, i really hope everybody
tried group healing, because oneof the things is in 2018, i
(37:50):
attended this kind of groupprogram for the first time and
the facilitator had us writedown the top five things that we
were ashamed about, and one ofmy things was abortion And I
before that time, i never tellanybody, i didn't tell my
parents.
I didn't tell my girlfriends.
(38:11):
It was just a shame that I heldinside, yeah, and like, even if
I went to a talk therapist, idon't think I would just
voluntarily like you know, dothis, but because I am a good
student and the teacher says theteacher says, write down you
talk.
Speaker 1 (38:29):
I'm ashamed.
Speaker 2 (38:30):
I got to do it right.
Speaker 1 (38:31):
You know.
Speaker 2 (38:33):
And what was interesting was, the teacher
said okay, when you read thisout loud to the group, everybody
must raise their hand if theyalso have the same thing.
So the women shared that theycheated, they stole money, they
did like heavy drugs, you know,abortion, all kinds of things
(38:54):
that.
Speaker 1 (38:55):
I know you, I get you , I am you, I am you.
Speaker 2 (39:00):
Yeah, and what's interesting is, i was the first
woman to share the abortion andthere was actually 24 women and
seven of the 24 actually raisedtheir hand.
And I cannot tell you like inthat moment I cried so hard
because when I came forward withmy shame and abortion, i also
(39:22):
healed six other women in theroom because I don't know if
they were going to admit thatthey have abortion shame.
But six other women releasedthemselves, released themselves.
So so that's what I mean.
It's like that's why I havethis group program And, yeah, i
really believe in the power ofgroup quantum healing.
(39:45):
Yes, yes.
Speaker 1 (39:48):
And also because words don't teach in the way
that experience teaches.
So we can learn aboutvulnerability and we can
understand vulnerability and wecan acknowledge certain things
to ourselves, but then, until wego and do, vulnerability embody
vulnerability, it doesn't havethe same releasing effects.
And that you know, you sharedso beautifully.
(40:10):
Why, yes, one on one coachingor therapy is.
It's essential on a certainlevel, but you can't skip the
group and get the full benefit.
You just can't.
So I love that And we are goingto absolutely link to all of
your delicious offerings in theshow notes today, so our
listeners will be able to checkall of that out.
Speaker 2 (40:32):
Yeah, it's really funny because when I first
picked the title of the bookhonoring darkness some people
might be like whoa, honoringdarkness, that seems so scary.
But honoring darkness doesn'tmean we dwell in the darkness.
It just means that we cannottransform if we hate where we
(40:58):
are.
You know, I think Martin LutherKing says you know, hate cannot
drive out darkness, Only lovecan.
Only love can do that Right.
So it's like whatever parentingmistake that I've done, this
parenting shame and guilt that'sso heavy.
(41:18):
I spent years hating myself forthe parenting mistakes that I
made.
And I'm like look at the data,Look at I messed up my daughters
.
I'm a bad mom.
I don't know how many peoplelistening to this can relate to.
I feel like a bad.
Speaker 1 (41:37):
All of us, we've all, all, all had stood in that
moment.
Speaker 2 (41:42):
Yeah, And what I realized is I cannot become the
parent I want to be by hatingwho I've been.
I can only get there by lovingaccepting and finding compassion
that every step along the way Idid my absolute best, and
(42:08):
that's what I mean by honoringdarkness.
It doesn't mean what I did wasright.
It doesn't mean I want to staythere, but what.
I mean, is I get to love,accept and find compassion so
that I can become who I want tobe, where you are in those
moments?
Speaker 1 (42:25):
Yeah, yes, and this is the nitty gritty.
This is the whole thing righthere.
What we're talking about, right, is finding love and acceptance
for ourselves and our darkestmoments, and I just know that
that's what our listeners wantso badly, and I know that they
have so many questions aboutthat, and so I can't wait to
(42:45):
hear what they are.
I hope they reach out to you.
I hope, loves, that youdefinitely ask for what you need
.
I know you've heard so manygood things today about how to
honor the darkness And, winnie,thank you so much for sharing
your heart, sharing your journey, sharing your brilliance with
us.
I am confident this will not beyour last time on the pod, that
(43:08):
this is the beginning of abeautiful relationship.
Speaker 2 (43:12):
Thank you so much.
We should do some likeInstagram live or something.
Have fun.
Speaker 1 (43:15):
I love that idea.
Love that idea.
Okay, well, thank you again.
Peace Thank you everybody.
Dear Divorce Diary is a podcastby My Coach Dawn.
You can find more atMyCoachDawncom.
Hi, love, this is Dawn and you're listening to
Dear Divorce Diary with my coach, dawn, where we explore the
post-divorce life and you, thewoman who lives it.
We cover everything from traumaduring and after divorce to
feeling like a stranger in yourown life and the new frontier of
life as a single woman.
We're cozy in for theconversations we've been longing
(00:26):
to have about this new life.
Hi, loves, today I am soexcited to bring to you an
amazing guest, winnie Chan Wang.
She is a beautiful soul and Iam convinced that her and I were
just separated at birth.
(00:47):
There is so much about her workand my work and the
transmutation of our pain thatis so aligned and so beautiful,
and I am so excited to besitting with her right now.
Winnie, welcome.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
Thank you so much for having me.
I'm actually crying right nowfor those who are just listening
and don't know, just becauseyou know when you feel this
divine alignment, wheneverything is coming together
and there's this sense ofoverwhelming joy and gratitude,
(01:24):
just to be here with all of youtoday.
And you know I had some verydifficult challenges in my life.
You know I wrote a book aboutthis.
My book is called HonoringDarkness, and you know I started
with my childhood trauma andthen I had a rape and then I had
(01:47):
a divorce and then I hadparental alienation, and I don't
know if everyone in theaudience know what parental
alienation is, but parentalalienation is that during the
divorce process when one parentsays something bad about the
other parent and then you knowthe trust is broken, causing
(02:12):
that the daughter says I don'twant to have a relationship with
you, you are not my mother andyou have no right to talk to me,
right?
So for me those were some very,very dark times in my life.
You know, i remember spendingMother's Day like eating
breakfast by myself, and Iremember like another Mother's
(02:38):
Day where neither of my daughterwanted to spend 60 seconds with
me, so they wouldn't even eatin silence across from me on a
table for 60 seconds And Winniethis is the power of your
message, because to have movedfrom there to where you are
(02:59):
today in my opinion relativelyquickly right to have
transformed that the deepestpain I can imagine to the power
that you are bringing to ustoday, it's a miracle.
You know it's really funnybecause I love spirituality, I
actually read the Bible everyday.
I absolutely love Jesus.
(03:22):
And I also love Kuan Yin, i loveall kinds of Buddhist
meditation, i love the Tao, theJinyin, i practice the Tao, i
practice yoga, all kinds of yogaphilosophy.
So I'm just a lover ofspirituality.
Same girl, same, okay.
So what I wanted to say was, ifyou picture the Tao symbol,
(03:44):
which has the black fish and thewhite fish and the black dot
and the white dot, you willbegin to see the black dot, you
will begin to notice somethingwhich is within the black fish.
There is a white dot, and whatthat means is, no matter how
(04:05):
dark it is, there is lightsomewhere.
And that's why the full titleof my book is called Embrace
Shadow Work to Nourish and GrowYour Power, because it is when
you are navigating the darktimes that you discover your
(04:26):
source light.
And it's so funny because nowI'm writing my second book.
It's called Unlocking Light.
So my first book is about allthe shadow that I faced after
the divorce And then now I'mdoing the white fish part.
Speaker 1 (04:45):
right, That has the spot of dark in it.
Speaker 2 (04:49):
Right.
So basically and life is justthat cycle We have this hero's
journey.
When we go dark and when wecome back up, we serve humanity,
And then there will be anotherchallenge And then we can just
get stronger and stronger.
And the message is really to mybeloved audience is a message
(05:12):
of hope and resilience, knowingthat there is this really deep
source power that is in us.
Always with us.
Speaker 1 (05:24):
Always Exactly And it is, and not be extinguished.
Speaker 2 (05:28):
Exactly, exactly.
It was really funny because myacupuncture mentor one time I
was really devastated after thedivorce and having the parental
alienation And I'm crying Andthen he's like Winnie cut it.
Speaker 1 (05:49):
I freaking love that.
Speaker 2 (05:51):
Exactly Because, as an acupuncturist, we insert
needles into people, right?
So he just wanted to penetratemy bullshit.
He's still.
He's still.
So you know what he said.
He said Winnie, let me tell yousomething.
I said okay, what is it?
Who you are cannot be broken,right, right.
(06:12):
The word heartbroken is notactually possible because you
know so.
In the heart sutra, which isthe Buddhist text, it talks
about who we really are cannotbe born and cannot die Right.
Speaker 1 (06:32):
Virgil beings having a human experience.
Speaker 2 (06:35):
Exactly, exactly.
So you know, my acupuncturementor is like cut your bullshit
.
Okay, winnie, you're.
You cannot be heartbroken.
Okay, That is how do you say it?
It's kind of like this The sunis always there.
You might not see it becauseit's covered by dark clouds, but
(06:58):
the sun is always there.
Speaker 1 (06:58):
It doesn't cease to be Right.
Yeah, in EMDR therapy, when I'mworking with clients around
their psyche right, it's theself.
The self is eternal, it'sunaffected by the traumas, it's
untouched, it's our highestawareness, right, and we talk
about finding the self in thepain, because it's stable, it's
short, it's steady.
Speaker 2 (07:18):
Yeah, exactly, and you know the way I love EMDR and
explain it to other people.
a lot of my clients.
they come to me because Ispecialize in removing trauma
from the body because, thetrauma is stored in the physical
organs like heart, lung, kidney, spleen, liver.
(07:41):
So by using acupuncture you can.
It's like hiring a plumber.
I say you, hire me.
You're like hiring a plumber,okay.
Speaker 1 (07:52):
To like unclog the shit Exactly.
Speaker 2 (07:54):
Exactly So.
My job is to diagnose whichpipe is clogged, which organ is
clogged, and then I unclog youright.
Speaker 1 (08:03):
So and our modalities work especially well together.
right, Someone comes to me andunclogs a bunch of stuff from
the mind, and then it can gethung up on its way out right In
the spleen or the kidney orwherever Exactly.
Speaker 2 (08:18):
So a lot of people come to me and they say, oh, can
I really graduate from mytrauma?
And I take a moment and I laughbecause it's like yes and no.
It's like this Can you undo arape?
(08:42):
You know, if you went to warand you lost a leg, can you
unloose a leg?
So there's a part of the traumawhere, if you have a white
sheet of paper and there's inkon it, there's always going to
be ink on it, right.
Like you can't say, okay, therape didn't happen or I didn't
(09:05):
go to war, i didn't lose a leg,right.
It's a part of the trauma thatis real and always going to be
there.
But events are actually neutralAnd what you do with that ink
on the paper?
The belief system about it Youcan make it into the most
(09:26):
beautiful art.
Speaker 1 (09:28):
So what I hear people asking you when they're asking,
can I graduate from my trauma?
is really can I live in anillusion of perfection?
No, no, you can't.
Speaker 2 (09:39):
You know what I call this in our book is we can't
avoid the lemons in life, but wecan make lemonade out of our
life right, and so you know,consider this right.
Is world war bad or good?
I mean, i think most peoplewill say wars are bad.
(10:00):
However, before World War, iall countries women stayed at
home, and it was because everyman that's able to pick up a
weapon was drafted to fight inthe war, and so the women
(10:21):
entered the workforce.
So think about all thegenerations under patriarchy
where women could be, you know,domestically abused by their
husband.
Liberation through loss.
And exactly So, even though,yes, world war was terrible, a
(10:41):
lot of lives were lost, but italso created opportunity, which
is, women entered the workforcefor the first time, and that
created financial independencefor women so they could start
having divorces and leaveunhappy marriages.
Speaker 1 (11:02):
Preach.
I relate to so much toliberation through loss.
I think that's why I love themoment in time of divorce that I
just am so inspired to workwith, because liberation through
loss, it is the truth, it's howI found my highest self, it's
(11:26):
how I started the healingjourney.
I think we share that story.
Speaker 2 (11:32):
Exactly, And that's why everybody needs to book and
work with Coach Don.
You know why?
And they should also work withme and book me.
You know because a lot ofclients come to me and they said
, Winnie, can you help me loseweight?
I said yeah, sure, Okay, but ifyou're going to eat 21
(11:53):
cheeseburger, there's nothing Ican do for you.
The best acupuncturist cannotovercome the fact that you eat
21 cheeseburger.
Speaker 1 (12:02):
Okay, mm-hmm.
Speaker 2 (12:04):
So the body keeps the score.
So you want to see anacupuncturist to help you move
the physical, stuck energy inyour organs, in your shoulder,
your hips, your knees, yourankles.
But if you don't change yourmind, then in three days, you
(12:26):
keep generating more.
Exactly.
The pain is just going to comeback, right.
So everyone should work with aperson like Coach Don so that
they can have the mindset shifts, mm-hmm, so that they stop
generating the junk.
Speaker 1 (12:43):
And everybody should have an acupuncturist, so that
the acupuncturist is like theplumber that helps you fly, so
leaning it out and keep it clean, plus the toilet, exactly
exactly.
I love it When you tell us moreabout your journey through
divorce and that mother-daughterrelationship that you mentioned
, because I know that.
(13:04):
And also, how interesting is itboth of us healers not fully
integrated when we began healing.
Healing work right, we bothhave been functioning as healers
, but not fully integrated.
And then here's the story oftransformation.
It's so beautiful.
I just know that your clientsget so much more from you now
(13:29):
that you've done this work.
Speaker 2 (13:32):
Yeah, thank you for saying that.
So it's really funny because Ibecame a Reiki healer in 2017.
And in the beginning I was justlove and light, okay, mm-hmm, i
was chanting mantras.
Speaker 1 (13:45):
I relate.
Speaker 2 (13:46):
I relate, and that's not to say it's not good because
I was able to put love andlight into the needles, which
made the acupuncture morepowerful.
However, i was still reallyjudgmental And I was telling
everybody what's wrong with themAnd to the extent that my
(14:08):
daughter would call me out, shewould say you say one thing and
do another right?
And at the time it was so hardfor me to believe And one of the
things my daughter kept sayingto me would be mom, you don't
(14:29):
ever listen to me and I don'tfeel like I matter to you, i
don't feel important.
And she said that for years andit was really hard for me to
understand.
But now I understand right,because I grew up with parents
who were always right, right, myfather.
(14:52):
If my father and mother and Idisagree on something, then my
parents are always right and I'malways wrong.
Speaker 1 (14:58):
So relatable So relatable.
Speaker 2 (15:01):
Exactly So.
And as a child, one of my corewounds is that I don't feel
heard, i don't feel understood.
I feel so alone, i feel so likeI don't matter.
Speaker 1 (15:15):
So of course we carry that forward as mothers.
Speaker 2 (15:17):
Exactly, exactly.
So.
it's so funny because here I am.
I remember thinking, okay, if Iever become a mother, then I'm
not going to do what my parentsdid to me, right?
But it's so funny because it'shard.
It's really hard to be sohonest in your shadow.
(15:46):
And it's not until I had adivorce, when my ego was
completely crushed, when Ifinally stopped what I call
spiritual bypassing which ispretending I'm better than other
people because I chant mantras,I meditate, I practice Reiki.
Yeah, exactly.
So what brought me down to myknees was the fact that, okay,
(16:14):
Winnie, you say you practicelove and you practice
forgiveness and you help allthese clients, but look at your
own relationship.
What does the data say?
right, The data says that youdon't have.
Speaker 1 (16:32):
It's not cute, it's not cute, no, no it's not good.
Speaker 2 (16:35):
The report card doesn't look so great.
Speaker 1 (16:38):
But I relate to what you're saying so much that there
are these promises I made withmyself that I was not going to
get divorced and I was not goingto raise my kid a certain way,
and I was right.
And then when we get confrontedwith hard data that says I did
the thing I said I wasn't goingto do, it's like there's a
reckoning there and that, ohmust not be, so I am doing the
(16:59):
thing.
Speaker 2 (17:01):
Exactly So.
The moment My ex-husband said Ino longer want to do the work
to be in a relationship with you, and I think seven days later I
suddenly just had this lightbulb moment when I realized
(17:21):
every single thing I evercomplained about him is in me
right.
So, I love pointing the fingerand blaming him like you're an
angry person No, actually I'mthe angry person.
You're judgmental?
No, actually I'm judgmental.
You're selfish?
No, actually I'm selfish, youknow.
(17:41):
And so it was actually a veryinformative exercise after the
divorce, where I wrote downevery single thing I cannot
stand about my ex-husband, andthen I simply changed the word
he to I.
Speaker 1 (18:02):
You walk us through this exercise in the book.
Speaker 2 (18:04):
Yes, yes yes, and it was so powerful.
It really brought me down to myknees because, of course, every
relationship is a mirror, right?
So my ex-husband is really mymirror in showing me how I'm
(18:25):
angry, i'm selfish, i'mjudgmental And I feel like one
of my core wounds is no matterwhat I do, i'm not good enough
for him, whatever he does.
Speaker 1 (18:40):
It's not good enough for me.
And so, within seven days ofyou two parting ways, you came
to that awareness.
Speaker 2 (18:51):
Yes, i did this exercise of writing every single
thing.
Speaker 1 (18:55):
Amazing.
Speaker 2 (18:56):
I just stand about him and then cross the heave
with the changes.
Speaker 1 (19:00):
I.
And what was that moment likewhen you were sitting with that?
What did it feel like to be inyour body in that moment?
Speaker 2 (19:09):
You know, it was really interesting because I was
hiking and I was at a river, soI stood in the middle of the
river and I just screamed andcried and yelled and just put
all of that, allow the flow ofthe river to move me.
(19:32):
And you know so I actuallywrote the letter standing on my
iPhone, really While I was inthe middle of the river Yes, wow
, wow.
Speaker 1 (19:46):
And so that a moment like that, while it's deeply
painful, there's so much shamein a moment like that that's
moving right.
So much shame.
However, I've always found thesilver lining to that moment to
be so much empowerment, becauseif it's me, I can do something
(20:06):
about that.
Speaker 2 (20:07):
Yeah, absolutely.
But when it comes to shame, Igotta say, nothing beats
parenting shame.
Because the way I look at thisis I can have all this shame
around the divorce.
And let me tell you something Iam the first person to get a
divorce in my generation myparents' generation, my
(20:30):
grandparents' generation.
I come from a culture where youdo not get a divorce.
Speaker 1 (20:37):
And there are some cultural considerations, right
You?
yes, i get that.
Speaker 2 (20:42):
So yeah, exactly, So this day I remain the only
person the token person who hasever gone to divorce.
So let me tell you that thedivorce shame is real.
Speaker 1 (20:53):
It was legit for you.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:57):
It was so bad that I couldn't even tell my parents I
was getting a divorce.
Speaker 1 (21:01):
That makes sense to me.
That makes sense to me thatthat's how powerful, how
physically palpable the shamewas for you.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:09):
So just a funny joke.
You know now, right?
Yeah, i texted them I'm gettinga divorce with John, and then
they called me for the next 10days and I just could not pick
up the phone, couldn't answer No, no, no, that makes sense.
Exactly So.
I couldn't deliver the news, icould only text it And then I
(21:29):
could not pick up the phonebecause I didn't want to answer
the question.
What did he do?
What did you do?
What did you try?
Like I'm like mom, dad, like Icannot answer your questions,
like I need to create thisreally safe container for me
right now.
Speaker 1 (21:45):
To move through this.
Speaker 2 (21:46):
Exactly, exactly.
But I do want to talk aboutparental shame, because to me,
no matter how bad the divorceshame is, that's so yesterday,
because you find a newgirlfriend or boyfriend and it's
(22:10):
a new relationship, right.
But then you know, to me,boyfriend, girlfriend, it's kind
of like a winter jacket.
You take off this winter jacket, you get a new winter jacket.
Hey, you don't have to look atthe old jacket anymore.
Speaker 1 (22:31):
But your children?
in the big book of AA, theycall that a geographical
solution, right?
It's like oh, maybe it's therelationship's fault or the yeah
, the jacket's fault, right, butyeah.
But children is not somethingyou can just write off, you
could just swap out.
Speaker 2 (22:46):
No, you cannot just take off the jacket again in
your jacket.
Speaker 1 (22:49):
You only have little truth tellers with their truth
serum.
Speaker 2 (22:53):
The children.
You don't get to be like tradein a different set of children.
You don't get to pretend youcan just walk away with this
relationship and start a new one.
No, your children.
Speaker 1 (23:07):
It's like the report card of how you yeah exactly So
good.
Speaker 2 (23:14):
Right.
So your relationship with yourchildren, oh, also, to a large
extent, whether your childrenare judgmental, whether they
have compassion, whether theyhave anxiety, depression,
addiction.
Okay, not entirely our fault,but I like to say 20% 20%
(23:36):
percent, that's the parentscontribution.
Speaker 1 (23:39):
Contribution.
Speaker 2 (23:41):
Yeah, yeah.
So you know, of course, i thinkthat you know.
there's this phrase like don'ttake things personally right.
Because, you know, if ourchildren is bullied at school,
well, we don't get to controlwhat happens at school, right?
And then I also believe thatchildren come with their own
(24:02):
personalities and past life,karma and all the incestral
stuff DNA, genetically,spiritually, exactly Yeah.
So we don't get to control ifthere's COVID or no COVID.
Right, we don't get to controlif we're in the lockdown or no
lockdown.
So when our children haveanxiety, i tell my clients
(24:23):
you're 20% responsible, so knowthat you can do something.
But even if you try yourabsolute best, it doesn't mean
that anxiety can go away, evenif you are a rescuer and you put
in everything you got, because80% is beyond your control.
Speaker 1 (24:46):
Their own journey.
Their own journey, yeah, yeah,i have learned this has been one
of my greatest learnings in thelast year is truly like law of
attraction framework the happierI am, the better I am at
regulating my own emotionalexperiences, the more open my
(25:10):
heart is.
She mirrors that.
Speaker 2 (25:14):
Exactly, there's actually science.
Yeah, so, yeah.
So the science is that theprefrontal cortex is not fully
developed until they're 25.
So, literally every time if youhave children under the age of
25, and they're flipping out,they don't even have the
hardware to do it.
(25:37):
So they actually rely on mirrorneurons?
Aha, and so it's all about theparents, it's all about the
parents nervous system.
Yeah, so exactly.
So if the parents is calm, thenthey, their mirror neuron is
(25:59):
going to pick up on our calmnessand they're not going to have
anxiety and react.
That's what I mean.
The parent is 20% responsible.
That's amazing.
Speaker 1 (26:09):
I don't, i can't believe.
I've never heard it that waybefore.
So when we think aboutattachment style, it's not.
Attachment style doesn't justcome from purely attachment
activating events, it's alsojust from being with your
parents, attachment style.
Speaker 2 (26:27):
So it's interesting about this is it's independent
of whether the child has a goodrelationship with the parent or
not, and so what I mean is thisthere's a phrase that says you
are the five closest peopleyou've worked with, and what
(26:51):
that means is we're allspiritual beings.
So that means it's kind of likeokay, if my daughter caught
COVID, she comes home.
I can very easily catch COVIDfrom her.
If my daughter is angry or haveanxiety, i can very easily
(27:12):
catch that.
Right, because things like anger, anxiety, fear, grief, these
things are emotional viruses,Whereas, COVID, you can take a
test and two slides means you'repositive.
Speaker 1 (27:29):
We really should be aware of you know it's kind of
like yeah, what viral load we'reshedding emotionally, whether
it's on the upper end of thescale or the lower end of the
scale.
Speaker 2 (27:42):
Right.
so, for example, if I'mcoughing, I really should stay
home and not give my give mygerms to other people.
So when I'm angry, I reallyshould ground and meditate and
come back to calmness before Ihave a conversation with my
children, Right, because whywould I want to give them my
(28:07):
anger?
You?
Speaker 1 (28:09):
put a quote in the beginning of your book that just
like hit me upside the headthis weekend about when
attachment trumps authenticity.
That quote that spoke about Andyou also put a quote in there
about how the patriarchy hasvalued perfectionism and driving
(28:34):
over groundedness right, andthose two things kind of came
together in my mind this weekend, recognizing how, when I am not
prioritizing groundedness, i'mprioritizing perfection.
How that's affected my daughter, right, that, wow, those are
just such powerful thoughts.
Then she divorces herself fromher own authenticity and she
(28:58):
prioritizes the attachment.
She wants to keep me happy, shewants to keep me pleased.
This is why she cheated on herspelling test last quarter,
right, because she wanted toprioritize pleasing me versus
the authenticity of not knowingthe answers.
And that 20% that I contributedthat caused her to feel
insecure in the attachment andthen shoved down her little
(29:20):
truth.
Speaker 2 (29:22):
I got the good news for you, though.
Tell me She's eight so you canstill help her.
There's time, there's time.
You know, one of my favoritethings to say is a lot of our
wiring, our subconscious, isformed between zero to seven.
(29:44):
So it's really funny because myspiritual awakening the very
first time happened when my kidswere seven and nine.
So I'm like, oh crap, i missedthe window.
Speaker 1 (29:55):
And I was there.
It's closer to be able toharness.
It really is.
Speaker 2 (30:00):
And whenever I have clients come in and their
children and two, you know, theyhave like two year old, four
year old I said, lady, listen tome.
Speaker 1 (30:09):
You celebrate, you celebrate.
Speaker 2 (30:11):
You got to change before they hit seven man,
because if you change now youdon't mess up your kids, and you
know I love my clients becausethey comfort me.
They're like Winnie.
It's better to find this outwhen your kids are 12 than when
they're 22.
And it's better to find outwhen they're 22.
Before that they're 32.
(30:31):
Right Basically it doesn'tmatter, as a parent, whether
your kids are two, 12, 22 or 32,you know the moment that you
realize it's a gift.
It's a gift.
You have an opportunity tochange yourself And when you
change yourself, you will noticea change in them because Even
(30:57):
if they don't like you or theylike you, whatever the
relationship is, there's asoftening.
They are breathing in yourvibration right.
They are marinating right.
It's like am I vibrating love,unconditional love?
Am I vibrating compassion andforgiveness, or am I vibrating
(31:19):
fear?
Speaker 1 (31:21):
I wonder what our listeners realized just now,
about what they're vibrating.
And that is the motivation,that is the empowerment when I
realize, right, i have so muchpower to shift me, i have so
much power to positivelyinfluence the world around me.
But then you know what ourclients say next, right, but how
(31:47):
?
And I love in your book howmuch, how you've built into it
how to face our shadows, how toface our parenting shame, how to
face our wounds and our pain,and to do it in a way that is so
freeing.
Speaker 2 (32:03):
Yeah, a lot of people ask me when shadow work, you
know originally came from KaurYong, and that's the realm of
talk therapy What business doyou have as an acupuncturist?
Why are you writing a book onshadow work?
And I said what you don'tunderstand is 70% of illnesses
come from anger, fear, guilt,shame, all of these things.
(32:27):
Right?
So you know, for example, i hada client and she had limited
eyesight.
She found me on Yelp and saidcan acupuncture help me with
improving my eyesight?
And I said well, i don't knowhow much acupuncture alone can
do, but if you're willing totrust me, then let's give it a
(32:50):
try.
And I kid you not, in onesession her eyesight fully
restored.
Wow, and it's because in thetraditional Chinese medicine,
anger is trapped in the liverand liver opens in the eyes.
So basically what I got to dowith her is unpack what was the
(33:13):
anger.
So it turned out that she hadto give it a voice.
So she had anger with herbiological sister.
They got into a fight and hersister set boundaries with her
and she's like who are you toset boundaries and decide to
abandon me?
You know there's all kinds ofanger.
And so I said hey, listen, doyou want to forgive your sister
(33:38):
and then get your eyesight back,or do you want to stay angry at
your sister and then havedeteriorated eyesight?
And she said I want to forgivemy sister.
Speaker 1 (33:47):
No, no, no, no, no.
Good choice, Good choice, yes,yes.
Speaker 2 (33:52):
And so you know, and this is just one example And so
basically what I realized is Ineed to write a book so that
people who don't get to workwith me individually, or you
know if they don't take my groupcoaching program, you know, at
just $28.
You systematically work, do theexercise the pages at in every
(34:18):
chapter.
You can heal your life.
You can heal so many things.
Okay, recover your hearing.
You know I work with a client.
you know he had pelvic floordysfunction at 25 and he was
actually, you know, had you knowyou're in leakage problem and
(34:38):
you know, and it's like twosession and it's done, and it
really has to do with fear andit's so powerful This shadow
work, i cannot tell you thenumber of like medical cases
that get transformed because ofthe mind and the body are
intrinsically linked.
Speaker 1 (34:57):
You cannot separate them.
Speaker 2 (34:58):
Exactly, and so I'm like everybody listening out
there.
you got to get a talk therapistor a coach like Don, and you
got to go see an agri-punctresslike Winnie.
Yeah, you know you need both,okay, yeah.
Speaker 1 (35:13):
So containers to shift, containers to shift, yeah
, and the beauty of folks likeus who have been doing this work
is we know where to poke right,like that's the thing.
We know where to poke torelease the thing.
Speaker 2 (35:27):
So I happen to be a professor of acupuncture and I
happen to have four sciencedegree, including two from MIT
And so those little pieces ofpaper.
Yeah.
So when I did this, I reallywant to provide a systematic
framework to shadow work,Because one of the things I
(35:49):
realized is sometimes I haveclients who've had anxiety for
20 years and they've had a talktherapist for 20 years but they
still haven't graduated.
Speaker 1 (36:01):
And that's the old way.
That's the old way.
Speaker 2 (36:04):
Yeah.
The answer, i think, ispartially because The talk
therapist cannot take you whereyou are not ready to go, because
our ego doesn't want that pain.
It's hard for us to open thatpart and go in there and look
(36:31):
inside the closet where themonster is hiding.
And that's why I have a grouphealing program, because imagine
if you have 10 people together,one person is sharing their
breakthrough and then that canactually heal you because you
(36:54):
start to relate to that person.
Speaker 1 (36:56):
So it's like catching that vibe too, Like how you
talked about transmitting avirus, transmitting anger.
But we also transmit positivity, we transmit hope, we transmit
whatever we're vibrating at, wetransmit.
So first of all, it's powerfulto not have to go in the scary
room alone.
When we go as a group it justfeels less scary.
(37:16):
And then when we're in thescary room and somebody all of a
sudden catches a vibration ofhope or optimism or healing,
that's contagious.
Speaker 2 (37:26):
Exactly So.
I think that, if you've been Imean, i personally love
individual therapy, becausethere's nothing quite like
having somebody hold your hands.
But then if you've never triedgroup, i really hope everybody
tried group healing, because oneof the things is in 2018, i
(37:50):
attended this kind of groupprogram for the first time and
the facilitator had us writedown the top five things that we
were ashamed about, and one ofmy things was abortion And I
before that time, i never tellanybody, i didn't tell my
parents.
I didn't tell my girlfriends.
(38:11):
It was just a shame that I heldinside, yeah, and like, even if
I went to a talk therapist, idon't think I would just
voluntarily like you know, dothis, but because I am a good
student and the teacher says theteacher says, write down you
talk.
Speaker 1 (38:29):
I'm ashamed.
Speaker 2 (38:30):
I got to do it right.
Speaker 1 (38:31):
You know.
Speaker 2 (38:33):
And what was interesting was, the teacher
said okay, when you read thisout loud to the group, everybody
must raise their hand if theyalso have the same thing.
So the women shared that theycheated, they stole money, they
did like heavy drugs, you know,abortion, all kinds of things
(38:54):
that.
Speaker 1 (38:55):
I know you, I get you , I am you, I am you.
Speaker 2 (39:00):
Yeah, and what's interesting is, i was the first
woman to share the abortion andthere was actually 24 women and
seven of the 24 actually raisedtheir hand.
And I cannot tell you like inthat moment I cried so hard
because when I came forward withmy shame and abortion, i also
(39:22):
healed six other women in theroom because I don't know if
they were going to admit thatthey have abortion shame.
But six other women releasedthemselves, released themselves.
So so that's what I mean.
It's like that's why I havethis group program And, yeah, i
really believe in the power ofgroup quantum healing.
(39:45):
Yes, yes.
Speaker 1 (39:48):
And also because words don't teach in the way
that experience teaches.
So we can learn aboutvulnerability and we can
understand vulnerability and wecan acknowledge certain things
to ourselves, but then, until wego and do, vulnerability embody
vulnerability, it doesn't havethe same releasing effects.
And that you know, you sharedso beautifully.
(40:10):
Why, yes, one on one coachingor therapy is.
It's essential on a certainlevel, but you can't skip the
group and get the full benefit.
You just can't.
So I love that And we are goingto absolutely link to all of
your delicious offerings in theshow notes today, so our
listeners will be able to checkall of that out.
Speaker 2 (40:32):
Yeah, it's really funny because when I first
picked the title of the bookhonoring darkness some people
might be like whoa, honoringdarkness, that seems so scary.
But honoring darkness doesn'tmean we dwell in the darkness.
It just means that we cannottransform if we hate where we
(40:58):
are.
You know, I think Martin LutherKing says you know, hate cannot
drive out darkness, Only lovecan.
Only love can do that Right.
So it's like whatever parentingmistake that I've done, this
parenting shame and guilt that'sso heavy.
(41:18):
I spent years hating myself forthe parenting mistakes that I
made.
And I'm like look at the data,Look at I messed up my daughters
.
I'm a bad mom.
I don't know how many peoplelistening to this can relate to.
I feel like a bad.
Speaker 1 (41:37):
All of us, we've all, all, all had stood in that
moment.
Speaker 2 (41:42):
Yeah, And what I realized is I cannot become the
parent I want to be by hatingwho I've been.
I can only get there by lovingaccepting and finding compassion
that every step along the way Idid my absolute best, and
(42:08):
that's what I mean by honoringdarkness.
It doesn't mean what I did wasright.
It doesn't mean I want to staythere, but what.
I mean, is I get to love,accept and find compassion so
that I can become who I want tobe, where you are in those
moments?
Speaker 1 (42:25):
Yeah, yes, and this is the nitty gritty.
This is the whole thing righthere.
What we're talking about, right, is finding love and acceptance
for ourselves and our darkestmoments, and I just know that
that's what our listeners wantso badly, and I know that they
have so many questions aboutthat, and so I can't wait to
(42:45):
hear what they are.
I hope they reach out to you.
I hope, loves, that youdefinitely ask for what you need
.
I know you've heard so manygood things today about how to
honor the darkness And, winnie,thank you so much for sharing
your heart, sharing your journey, sharing your brilliance with
us.
I am confident this will not beyour last time on the pod, that
(43:08):
this is the beginning of abeautiful relationship.
Speaker 2 (43:12):
Thank you so much.
We should do some likeInstagram live or something.
Have fun.
Speaker 1 (43:15):
I love that idea.
Love that idea.
Okay, well, thank you again.
Peace Thank you everybody.
Dear Divorce Diary is a podcastby My Coach Dawn.
You can find more atMyCoachDawncom.
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Therapy Gecko
An unlicensed lizard psychologist travels the universe talking to strangers about absolutely nothing. TO CALL THE GECKO: follow me on https://www.twitch.tv/lyleforever to get a notification for when I am taking calls. I am usually live Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays but lately a lot of other times too. I am a gecko.