October 21, 2025 • 32 mins
He disappears, then drops a “just checking in” text.
He remembers the good old days, then ghosts again.
That push–pull dance isn’t love — it’s control.
In this episode of Dear Divorce Diary, Dawn, Tiffini, and Joy unpack the hidden cost of divorcing an avoidant man — the paranoia, the false connection, the endless emotional labor — and teach you how to finally flip the script.
You’ll learn:
💔 How avoidant behavior actually works (and why it’s not your fault)
🧠 The nervous-system science behind intermittent affection
🔥 The one boundary that ends post-divorce hooks for good
💬 The single question that changes how you respond to him — forever
Write this down:
Am I about to respond as the woman he trained me to be — or as the woman I’m becoming?
If that line hits you in the gut, that’s the point. It’s time to stop being who he conditioned you to be and start becoming who you really are.
💫 Grab your free 21-day Post-Divorce Roadmap using code MAGIC DROP — you’ll automatically join Cocoon, our private community with weekly Magic Drops, giveaways, and real-time healing support.
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/MyCoachDawn
Instagram: (@dawnwiggins)
Instagram: (@coachtiffini)
On the Web: https://www.mycoachdawn.com
A podcast exploring the journey of life after divorce, delving into topics like divorce grief, loneliness, anxiety, manifesting, the impact of different attachment styles and codependency, setting healthy boundaries, energy healing with homeopathy, managing the nervous system during divorce depression, understanding the stages of divorce grief, and using the Law of Attraction and EMDR therapy in the process of building your confidence, forgiveness and letting go.
Post Divorce Road Map : 21 Days of Journaling
Promo Code: MAGICDROP
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_01 (00:00):
Beyond the divorce papers and the lawyers,
divorcing an avoidant man isextra.
It's about the secrets that leftyou paranoid, the control moves
that stole your voice, the falsecheck-ins that keep you hooked
even now.
And today, we're going to showyou how to decode what he's
really up to and how to flip thescript so that his tactics stop
(00:21):
running your life.
Hi, love.
Welcome to Dear Divorce Diary,the podcast helping divorcees go
beyond talk therapy to processyour grief, find the healing you
crave, and build back yourconfidence.
I'm your host, Don Wiggins, atherapist, coach, integrative
(00:43):
healer, and divorcee.
Join me for a fresh approach tohealing grief and building your
confidence after divorce.
Today's episode, we're gonnaacknowledge the volumes of extra
(01:03):
labor that it takes to divorcean avoidant man.
There's the splitting thehousehold stuff and the signing
the papers and all of that,right?
But it's really the hidden costof his behavior long after he's
gone.
And he still sometimes finds away to get in a casual text
under false pretenses, a suddenwave of nostalgia about the good
(01:24):
old days.
It looks like connection, butit's not.
It's really just another play inthe book of avoidance.
So today we're gonna start bydecoding what avoidant behavior
really means, what it lookslike, how to identify it,
because you cannot afford totake him at face value.
I repeat, you cannot afford totake him at face value.
(01:46):
And then we're gonna show youhow to flip the script, how to
stop playing by his rules, andinstead make choices that
protect your peace and give youback your power.
Stay with us to the end becausewe will give you one question,
one line you can carry into anyinteraction that will change the
way you respond to him forever.
(02:09):
Ladies, are you dying to knowwhat the question is, what the
line is?
I actually am very well we aregoing to dig into it at the end
of the episode.
That is our cliffhanger.
Okay, so let's start withthough, decoding avoidant
behavior so that you know we'reall super wicked clear about
(02:31):
what it really means when it'shappening, right?
Because how do we interrupt acycle if we don't know if we're
not realizing the cycle ishappening?
Yeah, okay.
Would it be helpful if I listedclassic avoidant attachment
behaviors?
Okay, it's sort of long.
Okay.
Okay.
That this is right, you do.
You love a checklist, aspreadsheet.
(02:52):
This is you, you keep this boatafloat with your checklists and
your spreadsheets.
Thank the Lord.
Okay.
All right.
First, there are distancingstrategies.
So silent withdrawal orstonewalling, right?
This is where he shuts down, heemotionally or physically leaves
the room, the chat, thebuilding, the whatever, right?
(03:15):
Physical avoidance throughthings like working late,
burying himself in hobbies,disappearing into screens, that
kind of thing.
And then there's distancing withsecret keeping.
So like selective disclosure tomaintain control or mystery.
Okay.
Then we have control and powertactics.
So there's a hot and coldpattern, intermittent affection.
(03:38):
And the intermittent part isreally, really important.
Intermittent affection followedby sudden withdrawal, right?
And the thing that is sopowerful about intermittent
affection is that's how gamblingworks in a casino, right?
You go and play the slotmachine, and it's that
intermittent reward that keepsus coming back.
Yeah.
So that intermittent piece isreally key.
Bread crumbing, minimal text orgestures just to keep you
(04:00):
engaged, but not to actuallycome close.
Gaslighting, rewriting history,downplaying conflict, denying
past agreements, um,hyperindependence,
overemphasizing his ownself-sufficiency.
I don't need anyone.
Okay, then we have emotionalavoidance strategies.
So minimizing feelings, likedismissing your emotions as
overreactions, deflecting orusing humor as a shield, joking
(04:23):
just to bypass intimacy, right?
Like just as maybe you couldactually get somewhere.
There's like a joke to createemotional distance.
Um task orientation, so likefocusing on logistics, money,
kids, chores, separation ofproperty, whatever, right?
Instead of emotional connection,intellectualizing, talking about
concepts, not feelings.
Then we have commitmentavoidance.
(04:45):
So future faking, like promisingchange or plans, but never
actually following through.
Um, last minute cancellations,because they need to keep their
escape routes open.
Fear of labels.
I think we hear a lot of thiswhen women are going back out
and dating.
Um, but right, if if a man ishaving a fear of labels,
(05:06):
resisting definition definitionsor um like the defining of a
relationship or next steps oryou know, those kinds of things,
like that's an avoidantbehavior.
Um, okay.
And then we're we're gonnaactually dig into this next
thing more in our Thursdayepisode.
We're gonna do our Thursdayepisode is gonna be all on this,
but I'm just gonna tease thishere.
Post-divorce hooks, likespecific post-divorce avoidant
(05:30):
attachment hooks.
So check-ins under falsepretenses, like I just wanted to
see how you're doing, or usingthe kids as an excuse.
And then nostalgia bombs, likereminding you of good times to
trigger your longing.
Uh, jealousy plays, right?
Like quickly dating, like howmany episodes have we done?
Like he moved on too fast andlike it gutted me.
(05:53):
So dating quickly, flaunting newpartners, but then also still
secretly contacting you.
Tiffany is giggling inside.
She's like, uh, all right.
Last one.
Convenience contact, likereaching out only when he feels
lonely, stressed during crisis,like when he needs something.
Yeah.
(06:14):
So these are our most commonavoidant attachment behaviors,
right?
And so let's talk a little bitabout what these behaviors
really mean because, ladies, youcannot afford to take them at
base value.
All of these things we listedtoday, they're they're
avoidance, they're strategies tokeep you at arm's length.
(06:36):
So let's talk about whatavoidant behavior really means,
right?
It's underneath all of that,there is a deep insecurity and
an intolerance, anintolerability around
vulnerability or feeling his ownfeelings.
And listen, I have been theretoo as a disorganized attacher,
right?
I've been both an anxiousattacher and a like disorganized
(07:00):
attachment styles have bothanxious and avoidant capacity,
right?
And I think that anytime youhave attachment wounds, it it
means that there is aninsecurity around feeling
emotions because attachmentwounds come from uh a breakdown
in a baby or a child expressingfeelings and a parent responding
(07:23):
with attunement or anappropriate emotional soothing
or comforting, or over timeteaching you how to self-soothe,
or you know, providing thecontext and the structure for a
baby or a child to learn how toself-soothe and making sure that
that infant or child is withintheir window of tolerance,
right?
Like they're not in the red zonein the engine temperature for
too long.
That's what leads to attachmentwounding, right?
(07:45):
So underneath disorganized,anxious, and avoidant attachment
style stuff is an in adiscomfort with feeling our own
feelings.
So for an avoidant, they trulycannot tolerate emotional
closeness.
But they fake it a lot, or theydo just enough to make us keep
us hoping or keep us thinkingthat it's possible, right?
(08:08):
So tifferdoodle.
Tell us a little bit from an IFSperspective, right?
Like from a parts perspective,what these avoidance strategies
look like.
Um, you know, when you'reworking with someone who's
avoidant, what is really goingon underneath the surface?
Does my question make sense?
SPEAKER_02 (08:25):
Yeah, yeah, a lot of like there is a part of you that
as a young child experienced uma lack of emotional closeness to
a parental figure, uh, whetherthat was like constant like
attention-seeking um behaviorwhen you were younger, um,
basically just never gettingthat affirmation from a parent,
never feeling like you were goodenough.
(08:47):
Like, there's always aninsecurity around attention and
trying to get attention andaffection.
So it's like a lot of likewithdrawal then at that point.
SPEAKER_01 (08:56):
Like, I'm not gonna try, I'm just gonna shut down.
It's like it happened so muchfor so long.
I'm not even gonna try.
I'm gonna fake try.
Fake try.
So that I can do enough to keepsomeone engaged but without ever
having to feel vulnerable.
So it's like a constant dance,you're never gonna get an
(09:17):
avoidant who's not in I I don'twant to say like because
everybody's capable of change,right?
But unless an avoidant attacheris intentionally seeking to
break their pattern and isintentionally seeking to move
the needle, you're never goingto see that person cross into
vulnerability.
(09:38):
Because it's too threatening.
SPEAKER_02 (09:40):
I mean, I was an avoidant attacher for a long
time in my relationships, andyou know, my husband was a
avoidant attacher as well, so wewere a great pair.
Um that sounds spicy.
SPEAKER_01 (09:53):
I think she relates to that too to multiple avoidant
attachers.
SPEAKER_00 (09:58):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I feel like my parents' avoidantattachers married an avoidant
attacher.
It was like my comfort zone notreally being seen.
SPEAKER_01 (10:10):
You don't think you don't think your dad is an
anxious attacher?
I think my dad um I think my dadis an anxious attacher too.
I mean, he's probablydisorganized.
SPEAKER_00 (10:20):
Like, he will uh uh avoid conflict, he will avoid
anything that rocks the boat.
So, like maybe he's disorganizedif you really scale back and
pull it through, but like hejust can't handle, he can't
confront her, he can't handleany type of uh yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (10:44):
I mean my dad was definitely an avoidant, and then
my mother in her earlier dayswas anxious.
Now she's secure, but she wasanxious.
SPEAKER_01 (10:54):
I think that tracks because I think for most of us,
at least I will say for me, Ifeel like my daughter really I
think this is a common story.
My daughter was the thing thatallowed me to break through all
of that because I understood therisk of not breaking through my
attachment style crap for her.
So I got well almost on herbehalf.
(11:15):
Um, I pushed past my comfortlevel to break cycles and
patterns because I was not gonnalet her experience what I
experienced.
Yeah, and so I mean, that checksout that your mom has been able
to rehab to extend.
SPEAKER_02 (11:28):
And every single dating relationship that I've
had, um, and even in my marriageand relationships, it was almost
like there would be this prettyfacade, and I could literally
tell you exactly what wouldhappen every time.
It'd be like we'd be in thehoneymoon phase, and then all of
a sudden, um, I went from beingan avoidant to anxious.
So then when I started to fallapart and start showing my worst
(11:48):
sides of myself, then I wouldpiece out of the relationship.
Because at that point, whenyou've seen me at my worst, how
could somebody possibly love me?
Like that's what I would think.
SPEAKER_01 (12:00):
I think I went the opposite.
Like, I'm gonna show you all ofmy stuff, and now we have to die
together because you can't leaveme now.
Um, can I ask a vulnerablequestion?
Okay.
Um, I actually don't think it'syour maybe, I don't know.
Okay.
Um is your mom an alcoholic?
(12:20):
You wouldn't say so.
Okay.
You wouldn't say so.
What do you think reallyfacilitated her shift?
Like what was the impetus forher to Joy and I want to know?
Joy and I want to know becauseour mom's never shifted.
What's the secret sauce?
SPEAKER_02 (12:38):
My mom met someone who made her feel secure and
seen and treated her with careand respect and put her first.
She's never had that in her lifefrom any relationship.
And this man sees her.
Like when I tell you that mymother is a platinum blonde that
(13:00):
gets her nails done, and now tosee her riding a tractor wearing
pink camo, carrying a pinkpistol, like on her 10 acres of
land, like that is where hersoul.
Yeah, like my mom, he like heplayed a big part in like
setting her soul free, if thatmakes sense.
Like she's like she's such adifferent person in this
(13:22):
relationship, and this and he'sthe only person she's ever
married.
unknown (13:25):
Oh, interesting.
SPEAKER_02 (13:26):
Oh, interesting.
And it wasn't until she was inher 50s.
unknown (13:31):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (13:33):
Okay.
What else do our listeners needto hear about what his avoidant
behavior really means?
Because we do not want to takehim at face value, right?
So, like, what else?
SPEAKER_02 (13:47):
What else do we need to like for me?
I feel like they're gonnadeflect.
So it's like oh nothing.
Like, oh yeah, like when youwere saying that someone was
gonna leave, like they weregonna leave in the heat of an
argument, it's like, well, isthere bonus points if there's a
gun involved?
Because that was always mycycle, right?
Like, we're gonna take the,we're gonna have an argument,
and I'm gonna call you on thecarpet.
(14:07):
And then because we can't talkabout the vulnerable things, not
only are you gonna leave thehome, you're gonna leave the
home with a weapon and you'regonna text me.
SPEAKER_01 (14:19):
Yeah, emotional hostage taking, right?
Like, I'm gonna make you afraidto hold me accountable.
Well, gosh, I just think it'sterrible when my ex and my
current husband, quite frankly,tell me they're gonna change
something, and they like they'rereally just trying to shut me
up.
Like, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I'm gonna I'm like, yeah, Iunderstand what you're saying,
and I I think you're right, andI own that, and I'm gonna change
it.
And then never do.
(14:41):
You you like up the ante overthere.
SPEAKER_02 (14:45):
Yeah, it was a lot.
I mean, and you know, we wereboth really young, and there was
a lot of like things, butneither one of us wanted to talk
about the vulnerable shit.
Like, we just never did.
SPEAKER_01 (14:54):
I actually was really good at pretending like I
did, but I really just wantedyou to talk about your
vulnerable shit while Ifacilitated.
SPEAKER_02 (15:04):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (15:05):
You go first, you go first.
That's you know, I didn't know Iwas doing that, but that's what
I was doing.
SPEAKER_02 (15:13):
Yeah.
For me, I was saving everybody.
unknown (15:16):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (15:16):
Right?
And through like the avoidantbehavior, like I feel like he
knew what to say to get me toengage with him.
And so this happened years andyears post-divorce, where I
still felt like his protector,and I still felt like I needed
to um be responsible for him ina sense, or like I was his only
safe space in a lot of ways.
(15:38):
Right.
Like that was hard, right?
Right, right.
SPEAKER_01 (15:42):
So when they feel like when an avoidant acts like
they need you, or like you'rethe only one that can provide a
thing, or like right, there'sgonna be really be a hook there,
and I think that a lot ofpeople, not just women, but
people experience thisespecially when there's threats
of suicide or some sort ofself-harm, right?
(16:05):
That can be really, reallyscary.
And I think it causes people tofeel like they have to stay a
lot longer.
SPEAKER_00 (16:10):
Right, yeah, right.
That's a control for sure.
SPEAKER_01 (16:13):
And that is one of the ways they draw us back in,
right?
And so back to that questionwe're gonna ask at the very end
of the episode that will helpbreak that cycle, but yeah.
Okay, so let's talk about how toflip the script, right?
How to stop playing by hisrules, how to make choices that
protect your peace, and give youyour power back.
SPEAKER_02 (16:36):
For me, initially, I had a rule eventually that I did
not want to talk about anythingbut our daughter.
So when you text me, it's tocheck on her and only her, or
it's to call and talk with her.
It is not to ask me how I'mdoing, it's not to ask me about
my current relationship or jokeabout things, like it's not any
of that.
Like I had to have really,really hard and fast boundaries
(16:57):
around what we were gonnadiscuss and talk about.
Um the first couple yearspost-divorce for us was pretty
tumultuous.
Um, and I'll explain more in theThursday episode about just the
cycles that I experienced andlike the things that would, you
know, the the love bombing thathappened.
Um, but I think that, you know,there were all these ways in
(17:19):
which she would pull me back in.
And it's like when somebodyknows you so intimately like
that, they know exactly what tosay to get you to pull back in,
and that's the shitty part.
SPEAKER_01 (17:29):
I'm gonna dig even deeper though.
I would argue that the thingthat I have seen most with women
in my entire 25-year career,whatever it is, is that if you
truly believed, believed,capital B leved, that you could
do better, you would never keepengaging in this cycle.
(17:49):
So I think for women who stay inthis cycle with an avoidant man,
it's because love, hear me saythis, love, that deep down you
are afraid you will never beloved more or better, or that
you are not worthy of beingloved more or better by a
different man who will trulycherish you.
It it boils down to your storiesyou tell yourself about your own
(18:13):
worth.
And I think if you haven'treally gotten to the core of
that, you cannot flip the scriptbecause you are constantly gonna
have self-sabotage out of fearof being alone forever.
SPEAKER_00 (18:26):
So I was actually going to say the same thing but
differently.
Go for it.
So I was going to say whatreally helped me get out of that
was the victim mindset where umwhen I realized I had control
and I had power to change, itwas easier for me to say you
(18:50):
actually don't get to treat melike that anymore because I am
not gonna settle for thatanymore.
Does that make sense?
So like it was very much I tookcontrol of my boundaries, I took
control of what I was wouldtolerate.
Like I love you and I want thebest for you, but also I would
(19:15):
get I'm I'm very uh rooted in myfaith and I'd get really like
dig into I'm a daughter of aking.
You don't get like that, youknow what I mean?
Like really yeah, yeah, yeah.
And like you don't um that andthat was new for you, right?
Right.
And it was so scary to go fromsomeone very small who played
(19:36):
very small very well.
Like I I grew up very small,like that's where I was
comfortable.
So when I got to start steppinginto, no, that's actually not
the marriage I want, that's notthe marriage I want my children
to see.
That is not like we're not doingthis anymore.
SPEAKER_01 (19:53):
And so um so what I'm hearing you say is when you
realize you did not have to bedependent on him and that you
could from an empowered place,which you knew was gonna take
time, but from an empoweredplace of I can.
I can be whole, I can beself-sufficient, I can be
financially solvent, I can belike I can problem solve.
SPEAKER_00 (20:15):
I can I didn't right, I did not know what that
looked like because I was astay-at-home mom when he moved
out, so like I didn't reallyknow what, but I did know that
that like I'm not a weft of ahuman, I'm very capable woman.
And and I think it's reallyimportant.
SPEAKER_01 (20:32):
I want to kind of get in here for a moment, right?
About what your recollection is.
But would you say that that cameas a result of the intersection
of your faith community and themental health conversations we
would have over here beingentrenched in like the therapy
stuff?
Like it wasn't just one, itwasn't just the other, it was an
(20:52):
intersection of both.
And I'm asking this questionthis way because I think people
who try to get well in thechurch miss the really detailed
right.
You and I would talk thoughabout attachment style.
Like, we were having thesein-depth conversations, and we
were talking about how essentialit was to have addiction
recovery and attachment stylerecovery, and like you weren't
getting just surface-leveltherapeutic guidance or talk
(21:16):
therapy, like there was thisdeep intersection of faith plus
mental health pursuit.
SPEAKER_00 (21:25):
I think that the trauma in the church in the
pews, there's a book that um Donstarted a previous episode on,
is so real and so heartbreaking.
I think that my experience andis um I was able because I'm so
riding my faith, I literally hadan angel on my couch that gave
(21:47):
me permission.
SPEAKER_01 (21:48):
I think that's regional though, don't you
think?
You think it's I think my sensewould be that it's worse in the
Bible Belt than in other partsof the Bible.
SPEAKER_00 (21:55):
Probably for sure.
And because it's like theBaptists, it's the Southern
Baptists that are just liketaking over and they're awful.
I mean, not all of them.
I'm sure there's I'm surethere's lovely Southern.
Don't let me say that.
Right.
But also when you go to yourwhen you go to your elders and
your your pastors of your churchand you have really hard and
they just tell you to prayharder, or they just tell you to
(22:17):
um, you know, like it's not it'snot bad enough, or um it's not
often enough for it to beconsidered abuse.
SPEAKER_01 (22:27):
Like that's like argue that those particular
leaders are also avoidantattachers.
SPEAKER_00 (22:32):
1000%.
And I think that I uh just as aChristian, like I believe that
that there is so much power todo harm in that role, and that
like if you experience that, I'mon behalf of all believers, I'm
sorry, because that is bullshit,like it's bullshit.
SPEAKER_01 (22:53):
So um what an interesting consideration to
think about what faith leaders'attachment styles are and what
what recommendations they wouldgive based on that.
Because you know, we look at Godthrough the lens of how we see
our parents, and like we gotlike this because of you know,
our parenting, right, or how wewere parented, and I know it's
taken me decades to rehab myconception of God as He truly
(23:19):
is, and not through the lens ofmy parents, because that's what
we do as humans.
We project our experience withour caregivers onto God.
Yeah.
So what's it mean that myhusband was like agnostic, or
like leaning towards atheists?
Parents don't exist.
SPEAKER_00 (23:34):
Oh, parents, maybe that kind of just opened up That
kind of just opened up someonion layers over your husband
because I know his story, so Iknow his tracks, right?
SPEAKER_02 (23:45):
Right.
I was like, wow, okay, thatactually makes sense a little
bit.
Right.
So then, like what I find sointeresting too is when I'm
starting to work with my clientsand they're realizing this about
their ex, you know, that they'reoverstepping, you know.
Um, they're asking for a hug,they're giving you that late
night text, they're giving youan update on their current
relationship, like all thisshit, right, that they should
not be telling you.
(24:05):
We're gonna dig into that.
So I'm I'm talking to them aboutsetting boundaries, right?
And then as soon as they set aboundary, I always end up
getting a text saying, Well, heflipped out on me.
He didn't receive that well.
He's ignoring me.
He didn't do that.
Well, of course he is.
Because, ladies, let me tellyou, exactly, as soon as you set
a fucking boundary, please don'texpect the people that you are
(24:25):
setting a boundary with to haveany fucking understanding of
what is happening.
SPEAKER_01 (24:30):
No, but then again, it comes down to our fear of
conflict because of our ownattachment wounds.
Yeah, yeah, and and ourunderlying insecurity that no
one else is gonna love becauseof again, right?
Our our caregiver experience.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (24:41):
So this is like a big, deep, wide job to like I'm
actually getting sweaty in mypit who's talking about it,
right?
SPEAKER_02 (24:50):
And to the women out there that feel like that's all
you deserve from three womenthat have been in that
situation, we would love to tellyou how much bullshit that is
because all of us are now beingloved way better than in our
past lives.
SPEAKER_01 (25:06):
Okay.
Is it time for the question?
You're waiting.
Okay.
So this question, if you're notdriving your car right now, if
you're driving your car, youcannot write this down right
now.
But if you're not driving yourcar right now, I want you to
physically pause what you'redoing.
If you're walking, I want you tostop and type it in your phone.
(25:28):
I want you to write this downbecause there's something that
shifts from hearing something towhen you transcribe it for
yourself.
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (25:37):
Is this gonna be a good mirror message?
SPEAKER_01 (25:39):
Um maybe, maybe.
We do love a good mirror messagearound here, right?
But I do think it's somethingthat is valuable to put in your
journal and like rewrite itevery day for a period of time.
I think that it's such a big,big, big question.
It makes us really pause andcatch it catches our breath for
(26:00):
a moment.
So, all right, that's a lot of,I know.
All right, let me see if I candeliver.
All right, so the the buildupabout this question is about
okay, it's a big picture job torehab your self-esteem, your
self-image.
It's a big picture job to rehabyour attachment style and to
feel worthy of love andbelonging.
(26:21):
And it's a big picture job to,you know, spot his avoidant
behavior and stop getting hookedby it, right?
But sometimes you need that onetool that helps you pause in
your tracks and make a change inthe moment.
Because in the moment, you can'tjust decide to change how you
feel about yourself, right?
In your own esteem.
That's a process.
So, this question is designed tobe a tool that you can use.
(26:41):
And the more often you askyourself this question, the more
you will be able to break thecycle in the moment when he is
doing his avoiding crap andyou're feeling hooked by it.
Okay.
So I want you to stop and askyourself this.
Am I about to respond as thewoman he trained me to be?
Or as the woman I am becoming?
(27:03):
Yes.
Ooh.
Am I about to respond as thewoman he trained me to be, or my
parents trained me to be, right?
But I think it's when we say hetrained me to be, or as the
woman I am becoming.
And I think in that moment, whenyou frame it like that, there's
(27:25):
a push, there's an internalmotivation to make a different
choice, even when you feel likeit's out of reach.
All of a sudden it becomesslightly more in reach to delay.
And then if I were gonna giveone more piece of advice in
those moments, right, where itfeels hard to break the cycle,
is reach out to someone, reachout to someone.
And I don't just mean yourgirlfriend that's gonna like get
(27:46):
you all ginned up.
I mean the person that is goingto help you in the big picture
shift and hold you accountableand support you and speaking to
you in the way you need, right?
Someone who's really going tohelp you do the bigger picture
transformation that you aremoving towards.
So call that person or people,whoever they are.
And if you don't have one, thensend us a DM.
(28:07):
Like, come on now.
What would you ladies add, ifanything?
SPEAKER_02 (28:11):
I mean, I think that that is so powerful.
And I wish I would have had thatwhen I was going through all the
times because I knew exactlywhat he needed in the moment
when he was reaching out.
Yes, I was conditioned toprovide what he needed.
But as I started to change andshift and set boundaries, he
stopped reaching out to mebecause I wasn't giving him the
satisfaction of giving him whathe needed in those moments.
(28:34):
Like I wasn't that place for himanymore.
SPEAKER_01 (28:38):
Well, this has been a really fun episode to record.
We've done some attachment stylestuff before.
We've done some deep actually, Ithink we have a whole attachment
series we did.
Um, but this one is coming at itfrom a very different angle and
really, really cool to record itfrom this perspective with the
three of us.
Like totally different.
(28:58):
If you haven't yet joinedCocoon, which is our community
of women on the Heartbeat app,if you have not yet joined
Cocoon so that you canparticipate in the weekly magic
drop where you just engage inour little weekly challenge.
They're just super fun littleengagement pieces.
And then you're entered to win alittle prize that week.
(29:21):
And the prize could be like thecoolest book on mental health or
boundaries or recovery, or itcould be like a fun little
healing tool we've talked abouton previous Thursday episodes,
or it could be a gift card, orit could be like Lord knows
what, we've got so many coollittle magic drops planned, but
they're like fun little glow-upsto assist you in your healing
journey.
So if you are not part of thecocoon community in the
(29:41):
Heartbeat app, make sure youscroll to the bottom of the show
notes.
You are going to find a linkdown there to get our post
divorce roadmap free.
Follow me here.
Post divorce roadmap is our 21day immersive journaling
program.
And right now we are giving thataway for free using the code
MAGICDrop.
Um, and so when you use the codeMAGID Drop, To download the Post
(30:01):
Divorce Roadmap for free.
It's automatically going tobring you into our cocoon
community.
So then you're in the cocooncommunity, you have the
immersive journaling for free,and then you are part of the
space where you can do thelittle magic drop contest, and
then boom, Bob's your uncle, andyou get free stuff.
Okay.
We'll see you in Cocoon.
Peace.
Peace.com.
Beyond the divorce papers and the lawyers,
divorcing an avoidant man isextra.
It's about the secrets that leftyou paranoid, the control moves
that stole your voice, the falsecheck-ins that keep you hooked
even now.
And today, we're going to showyou how to decode what he's
really up to and how to flip thescript so that his tactics stop
(00:21):
running your life.
Hi, love.
Welcome to Dear Divorce Diary,the podcast helping divorcees go
beyond talk therapy to processyour grief, find the healing you
crave, and build back yourconfidence.
I'm your host, Don Wiggins, atherapist, coach, integrative
(00:43):
healer, and divorcee.
Join me for a fresh approach tohealing grief and building your
confidence after divorce.
Today's episode, we're gonnaacknowledge the volumes of extra
(01:03):
labor that it takes to divorcean avoidant man.
There's the splitting thehousehold stuff and the signing
the papers and all of that,right?
But it's really the hidden costof his behavior long after he's
gone.
And he still sometimes finds away to get in a casual text
under false pretenses, a suddenwave of nostalgia about the good
(01:24):
old days.
It looks like connection, butit's not.
It's really just another play inthe book of avoidance.
So today we're gonna start bydecoding what avoidant behavior
really means, what it lookslike, how to identify it,
because you cannot afford totake him at face value.
I repeat, you cannot afford totake him at face value.
(01:46):
And then we're gonna show youhow to flip the script, how to
stop playing by his rules, andinstead make choices that
protect your peace and give youback your power.
Stay with us to the end becausewe will give you one question,
one line you can carry into anyinteraction that will change the
way you respond to him forever.
(02:09):
Ladies, are you dying to knowwhat the question is, what the
line is?
I actually am very well we aregoing to dig into it at the end
of the episode.
That is our cliffhanger.
Okay, so let's start withthough, decoding avoidant
behavior so that you know we'reall super wicked clear about
(02:31):
what it really means when it'shappening, right?
Because how do we interrupt acycle if we don't know if we're
not realizing the cycle ishappening?
Yeah, okay.
Would it be helpful if I listedclassic avoidant attachment
behaviors?
Okay, it's sort of long.
Okay.
Okay.
That this is right, you do.
You love a checklist, aspreadsheet.
(02:52):
This is you, you keep this boatafloat with your checklists and
your spreadsheets.
Thank the Lord.
Okay.
All right.
First, there are distancingstrategies.
So silent withdrawal orstonewalling, right?
This is where he shuts down, heemotionally or physically leaves
the room, the chat, thebuilding, the whatever, right?
(03:15):
Physical avoidance throughthings like working late,
burying himself in hobbies,disappearing into screens, that
kind of thing.
And then there's distancing withsecret keeping.
So like selective disclosure tomaintain control or mystery.
Okay.
Then we have control and powertactics.
So there's a hot and coldpattern, intermittent affection.
(03:38):
And the intermittent part isreally, really important.
Intermittent affection followedby sudden withdrawal, right?
And the thing that is sopowerful about intermittent
affection is that's how gamblingworks in a casino, right?
You go and play the slotmachine, and it's that
intermittent reward that keepsus coming back.
Yeah.
So that intermittent piece isreally key.
Bread crumbing, minimal text orgestures just to keep you
(04:00):
engaged, but not to actuallycome close.
Gaslighting, rewriting history,downplaying conflict, denying
past agreements, um,hyperindependence,
overemphasizing his ownself-sufficiency.
I don't need anyone.
Okay, then we have emotionalavoidance strategies.
So minimizing feelings, likedismissing your emotions as
overreactions, deflecting orusing humor as a shield, joking
(04:23):
just to bypass intimacy, right?
Like just as maybe you couldactually get somewhere.
There's like a joke to createemotional distance.
Um task orientation, so likefocusing on logistics, money,
kids, chores, separation ofproperty, whatever, right?
Instead of emotional connection,intellectualizing, talking about
concepts, not feelings.
Then we have commitmentavoidance.
(04:45):
So future faking, like promisingchange or plans, but never
actually following through.
Um, last minute cancellations,because they need to keep their
escape routes open.
Fear of labels.
I think we hear a lot of thiswhen women are going back out
and dating.
Um, but right, if if a man ishaving a fear of labels,
(05:06):
resisting definition definitionsor um like the defining of a
relationship or next steps oryou know, those kinds of things,
like that's an avoidantbehavior.
Um, okay.
And then we're we're gonnaactually dig into this next
thing more in our Thursdayepisode.
We're gonna do our Thursdayepisode is gonna be all on this,
but I'm just gonna tease thishere.
Post-divorce hooks, likespecific post-divorce avoidant
(05:30):
attachment hooks.
So check-ins under falsepretenses, like I just wanted to
see how you're doing, or usingthe kids as an excuse.
And then nostalgia bombs, likereminding you of good times to
trigger your longing.
Uh, jealousy plays, right?
Like quickly dating, like howmany episodes have we done?
Like he moved on too fast andlike it gutted me.
(05:53):
So dating quickly, flaunting newpartners, but then also still
secretly contacting you.
Tiffany is giggling inside.
She's like, uh, all right.
Last one.
Convenience contact, likereaching out only when he feels
lonely, stressed during crisis,like when he needs something.
Yeah.
(06:14):
So these are our most commonavoidant attachment behaviors,
right?
And so let's talk a little bitabout what these behaviors
really mean because, ladies, youcannot afford to take them at
base value.
All of these things we listedtoday, they're they're
avoidance, they're strategies tokeep you at arm's length.
(06:36):
So let's talk about whatavoidant behavior really means,
right?
It's underneath all of that,there is a deep insecurity and
an intolerance, anintolerability around
vulnerability or feeling his ownfeelings.
And listen, I have been theretoo as a disorganized attacher,
right?
I've been both an anxiousattacher and a like disorganized
(07:00):
attachment styles have bothanxious and avoidant capacity,
right?
And I think that anytime youhave attachment wounds, it it
means that there is aninsecurity around feeling
emotions because attachmentwounds come from uh a breakdown
in a baby or a child expressingfeelings and a parent responding
(07:23):
with attunement or anappropriate emotional soothing
or comforting, or over timeteaching you how to self-soothe,
or you know, providing thecontext and the structure for a
baby or a child to learn how toself-soothe and making sure that
that infant or child is withintheir window of tolerance,
right?
Like they're not in the red zonein the engine temperature for
too long.
That's what leads to attachmentwounding, right?
(07:45):
So underneath disorganized,anxious, and avoidant attachment
style stuff is an in adiscomfort with feeling our own
feelings.
So for an avoidant, they trulycannot tolerate emotional
closeness.
But they fake it a lot, or theydo just enough to make us keep
us hoping or keep us thinkingthat it's possible, right?
(08:08):
So tifferdoodle.
Tell us a little bit from an IFSperspective, right?
Like from a parts perspective,what these avoidance strategies
look like.
Um, you know, when you'reworking with someone who's
avoidant, what is really goingon underneath the surface?
Does my question make sense?
SPEAKER_02 (08:25):
Yeah, yeah, a lot of like there is a part of you that
as a young child experienced uma lack of emotional closeness to
a parental figure, uh, whetherthat was like constant like
attention-seeking um behaviorwhen you were younger, um,
basically just never gettingthat affirmation from a parent,
never feeling like you were goodenough.
(08:47):
Like, there's always aninsecurity around attention and
trying to get attention andaffection.
So it's like a lot of likewithdrawal then at that point.
SPEAKER_01 (08:56):
Like, I'm not gonna try, I'm just gonna shut down.
It's like it happened so muchfor so long.
I'm not even gonna try.
I'm gonna fake try.
Fake try.
So that I can do enough to keepsomeone engaged but without ever
having to feel vulnerable.
So it's like a constant dance,you're never gonna get an
(09:17):
avoidant who's not in I I don'twant to say like because
everybody's capable of change,right?
But unless an avoidant attacheris intentionally seeking to
break their pattern and isintentionally seeking to move
the needle, you're never goingto see that person cross into
vulnerability.
(09:38):
Because it's too threatening.
SPEAKER_02 (09:40):
I mean, I was an avoidant attacher for a long
time in my relationships, andyou know, my husband was a
avoidant attacher as well, so wewere a great pair.
Um that sounds spicy.
SPEAKER_01 (09:53):
I think she relates to that too to multiple avoidant
attachers.
SPEAKER_00 (09:58):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I feel like my parents' avoidantattachers married an avoidant
attacher.
It was like my comfort zone notreally being seen.
SPEAKER_01 (10:10):
You don't think you don't think your dad is an
anxious attacher?
I think my dad um I think my dadis an anxious attacher too.
I mean, he's probablydisorganized.
SPEAKER_00 (10:20):
Like, he will uh uh avoid conflict, he will avoid
anything that rocks the boat.
So, like maybe he's disorganizedif you really scale back and
pull it through, but like hejust can't handle, he can't
confront her, he can't handleany type of uh yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (10:44):
I mean my dad was definitely an avoidant, and then
my mother in her earlier dayswas anxious.
Now she's secure, but she wasanxious.
SPEAKER_01 (10:54):
I think that tracks because I think for most of us,
at least I will say for me, Ifeel like my daughter really I
think this is a common story.
My daughter was the thing thatallowed me to break through all
of that because I understood therisk of not breaking through my
attachment style crap for her.
So I got well almost on herbehalf.
(11:15):
Um, I pushed past my comfortlevel to break cycles and
patterns because I was not gonnalet her experience what I
experienced.
Yeah, and so I mean, that checksout that your mom has been able
to rehab to extend.
SPEAKER_02 (11:28):
And every single dating relationship that I've
had, um, and even in my marriageand relationships, it was almost
like there would be this prettyfacade, and I could literally
tell you exactly what wouldhappen every time.
It'd be like we'd be in thehoneymoon phase, and then all of
a sudden, um, I went from beingan avoidant to anxious.
So then when I started to fallapart and start showing my worst
(11:48):
sides of myself, then I wouldpiece out of the relationship.
Because at that point, whenyou've seen me at my worst, how
could somebody possibly love me?
Like that's what I would think.
SPEAKER_01 (12:00):
I think I went the opposite.
Like, I'm gonna show you all ofmy stuff, and now we have to die
together because you can't leaveme now.
Um, can I ask a vulnerablequestion?
Okay.
Um, I actually don't think it'syour maybe, I don't know.
Okay.
Um is your mom an alcoholic?
(12:20):
You wouldn't say so.
Okay.
You wouldn't say so.
What do you think reallyfacilitated her shift?
Like what was the impetus forher to Joy and I want to know?
Joy and I want to know becauseour mom's never shifted.
What's the secret sauce?
SPEAKER_02 (12:38):
My mom met someone who made her feel secure and
seen and treated her with careand respect and put her first.
She's never had that in her lifefrom any relationship.
And this man sees her.
Like when I tell you that mymother is a platinum blonde that
(13:00):
gets her nails done, and now tosee her riding a tractor wearing
pink camo, carrying a pinkpistol, like on her 10 acres of
land, like that is where hersoul.
Yeah, like my mom, he like heplayed a big part in like
setting her soul free, if thatmakes sense.
Like she's like she's such adifferent person in this
(13:22):
relationship, and this and he'sthe only person she's ever
married.
unknown (13:25):
Oh, interesting.
SPEAKER_02 (13:26):
Oh, interesting.
And it wasn't until she was inher 50s.
unknown (13:31):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (13:33):
Okay.
What else do our listeners needto hear about what his avoidant
behavior really means?
Because we do not want to takehim at face value, right?
So, like, what else?
SPEAKER_02 (13:47):
What else do we need to like for me?
I feel like they're gonnadeflect.
So it's like oh nothing.
Like, oh yeah, like when youwere saying that someone was
gonna leave, like they weregonna leave in the heat of an
argument, it's like, well, isthere bonus points if there's a
gun involved?
Because that was always mycycle, right?
Like, we're gonna take the,we're gonna have an argument,
and I'm gonna call you on thecarpet.
(14:07):
And then because we can't talkabout the vulnerable things, not
only are you gonna leave thehome, you're gonna leave the
home with a weapon and you'regonna text me.
SPEAKER_01 (14:19):
Yeah, emotional hostage taking, right?
Like, I'm gonna make you afraidto hold me accountable.
Well, gosh, I just think it'sterrible when my ex and my
current husband, quite frankly,tell me they're gonna change
something, and they like they'rereally just trying to shut me
up.
Like, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I'm gonna I'm like, yeah, Iunderstand what you're saying,
and I I think you're right, andI own that, and I'm gonna change
it.
And then never do.
(14:41):
You you like up the ante overthere.
SPEAKER_02 (14:45):
Yeah, it was a lot.
I mean, and you know, we wereboth really young, and there was
a lot of like things, butneither one of us wanted to talk
about the vulnerable shit.
Like, we just never did.
SPEAKER_01 (14:54):
I actually was really good at pretending like I
did, but I really just wantedyou to talk about your
vulnerable shit while Ifacilitated.
SPEAKER_02 (15:04):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (15:05):
You go first, you go first.
That's you know, I didn't know Iwas doing that, but that's what
I was doing.
SPEAKER_02 (15:13):
Yeah.
For me, I was saving everybody.
unknown (15:16):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (15:16):
Right?
And through like the avoidantbehavior, like I feel like he
knew what to say to get me toengage with him.
And so this happened years andyears post-divorce, where I
still felt like his protector,and I still felt like I needed
to um be responsible for him ina sense, or like I was his only
safe space in a lot of ways.
(15:38):
Right.
Like that was hard, right?
Right, right.
SPEAKER_01 (15:42):
So when they feel like when an avoidant acts like
they need you, or like you'rethe only one that can provide a
thing, or like right, there'sgonna be really be a hook there,
and I think that a lot ofpeople, not just women, but
people experience thisespecially when there's threats
of suicide or some sort ofself-harm, right?
(16:05):
That can be really, reallyscary.
And I think it causes people tofeel like they have to stay a
lot longer.
SPEAKER_00 (16:10):
Right, yeah, right.
That's a control for sure.
SPEAKER_01 (16:13):
And that is one of the ways they draw us back in,
right?
And so back to that questionwe're gonna ask at the very end
of the episode that will helpbreak that cycle, but yeah.
Okay, so let's talk about how toflip the script, right?
How to stop playing by hisrules, how to make choices that
protect your peace, and give youyour power back.
SPEAKER_02 (16:36):
For me, initially, I had a rule eventually that I did
not want to talk about anythingbut our daughter.
So when you text me, it's tocheck on her and only her, or
it's to call and talk with her.
It is not to ask me how I'mdoing, it's not to ask me about
my current relationship or jokeabout things, like it's not any
of that.
Like I had to have really,really hard and fast boundaries
(16:57):
around what we were gonnadiscuss and talk about.
Um the first couple yearspost-divorce for us was pretty
tumultuous.
Um, and I'll explain more in theThursday episode about just the
cycles that I experienced andlike the things that would, you
know, the the love bombing thathappened.
Um, but I think that, you know,there were all these ways in
(17:19):
which she would pull me back in.
And it's like when somebodyknows you so intimately like
that, they know exactly what tosay to get you to pull back in,
and that's the shitty part.
SPEAKER_01 (17:29):
I'm gonna dig even deeper though.
I would argue that the thingthat I have seen most with women
in my entire 25-year career,whatever it is, is that if you
truly believed, believed,capital B leved, that you could
do better, you would never keepengaging in this cycle.
(17:49):
So I think for women who stay inthis cycle with an avoidant man,
it's because love, hear me saythis, love, that deep down you
are afraid you will never beloved more or better, or that
you are not worthy of beingloved more or better by a
different man who will trulycherish you.
It it boils down to your storiesyou tell yourself about your own
(18:13):
worth.
And I think if you haven'treally gotten to the core of
that, you cannot flip the scriptbecause you are constantly gonna
have self-sabotage out of fearof being alone forever.
SPEAKER_00 (18:26):
So I was actually going to say the same thing but
differently.
Go for it.
So I was going to say whatreally helped me get out of that
was the victim mindset where umwhen I realized I had control
and I had power to change, itwas easier for me to say you
(18:50):
actually don't get to treat melike that anymore because I am
not gonna settle for thatanymore.
Does that make sense?
So like it was very much I tookcontrol of my boundaries, I took
control of what I was wouldtolerate.
Like I love you and I want thebest for you, but also I would
(19:15):
get I'm I'm very uh rooted in myfaith and I'd get really like
dig into I'm a daughter of aking.
You don't get like that, youknow what I mean?
Like really yeah, yeah, yeah.
And like you don't um that andthat was new for you, right?
Right.
And it was so scary to go fromsomeone very small who played
(19:36):
very small very well.
Like I I grew up very small,like that's where I was
comfortable.
So when I got to start steppinginto, no, that's actually not
the marriage I want, that's notthe marriage I want my children
to see.
That is not like we're not doingthis anymore.
SPEAKER_01 (19:53):
And so um so what I'm hearing you say is when you
realize you did not have to bedependent on him and that you
could from an empowered place,which you knew was gonna take
time, but from an empoweredplace of I can.
I can be whole, I can beself-sufficient, I can be
financially solvent, I can belike I can problem solve.
SPEAKER_00 (20:15):
I can I didn't right, I did not know what that
looked like because I was astay-at-home mom when he moved
out, so like I didn't reallyknow what, but I did know that
that like I'm not a weft of ahuman, I'm very capable woman.
And and I think it's reallyimportant.
SPEAKER_01 (20:32):
I want to kind of get in here for a moment, right?
About what your recollection is.
But would you say that that cameas a result of the intersection
of your faith community and themental health conversations we
would have over here beingentrenched in like the therapy
stuff?
Like it wasn't just one, itwasn't just the other, it was an
(20:52):
intersection of both.
And I'm asking this questionthis way because I think people
who try to get well in thechurch miss the really detailed
right.
You and I would talk thoughabout attachment style.
Like, we were having thesein-depth conversations, and we
were talking about how essentialit was to have addiction
recovery and attachment stylerecovery, and like you weren't
getting just surface-leveltherapeutic guidance or talk
(21:16):
therapy, like there was thisdeep intersection of faith plus
mental health pursuit.
SPEAKER_00 (21:25):
I think that the trauma in the church in the
pews, there's a book that um Donstarted a previous episode on,
is so real and so heartbreaking.
I think that my experience andis um I was able because I'm so
riding my faith, I literally hadan angel on my couch that gave
(21:47):
me permission.
SPEAKER_01 (21:48):
I think that's regional though, don't you
think?
You think it's I think my sensewould be that it's worse in the
Bible Belt than in other partsof the Bible.
SPEAKER_00 (21:55):
Probably for sure.
And because it's like theBaptists, it's the Southern
Baptists that are just liketaking over and they're awful.
I mean, not all of them.
I'm sure there's I'm surethere's lovely Southern.
Don't let me say that.
Right.
But also when you go to yourwhen you go to your elders and
your your pastors of your churchand you have really hard and
they just tell you to prayharder, or they just tell you to
(22:17):
um, you know, like it's not it'snot bad enough, or um it's not
often enough for it to beconsidered abuse.
SPEAKER_01 (22:27):
Like that's like argue that those particular
leaders are also avoidantattachers.
SPEAKER_00 (22:32):
1000%.
And I think that I uh just as aChristian, like I believe that
that there is so much power todo harm in that role, and that
like if you experience that, I'mon behalf of all believers, I'm
sorry, because that is bullshit,like it's bullshit.
SPEAKER_01 (22:53):
So um what an interesting consideration to
think about what faith leaders'attachment styles are and what
what recommendations they wouldgive based on that.
Because you know, we look at Godthrough the lens of how we see
our parents, and like we gotlike this because of you know,
our parenting, right, or how wewere parented, and I know it's
taken me decades to rehab myconception of God as He truly
(23:19):
is, and not through the lens ofmy parents, because that's what
we do as humans.
We project our experience withour caregivers onto God.
Yeah.
So what's it mean that myhusband was like agnostic, or
like leaning towards atheists?
Parents don't exist.
SPEAKER_00 (23:34):
Oh, parents, maybe that kind of just opened up That
kind of just opened up someonion layers over your husband
because I know his story, so Iknow his tracks, right?
SPEAKER_02 (23:45):
Right.
I was like, wow, okay, thatactually makes sense a little
bit.
Right.
So then, like what I find sointeresting too is when I'm
starting to work with my clientsand they're realizing this about
their ex, you know, that they'reoverstepping, you know.
Um, they're asking for a hug,they're giving you that late
night text, they're giving youan update on their current
relationship, like all thisshit, right, that they should
not be telling you.
(24:05):
We're gonna dig into that.
So I'm I'm talking to them aboutsetting boundaries, right?
And then as soon as they set aboundary, I always end up
getting a text saying, Well, heflipped out on me.
He didn't receive that well.
He's ignoring me.
He didn't do that.
Well, of course he is.
Because, ladies, let me tellyou, exactly, as soon as you set
a fucking boundary, please don'texpect the people that you are
(24:25):
setting a boundary with to haveany fucking understanding of
what is happening.
SPEAKER_01 (24:30):
No, but then again, it comes down to our fear of
conflict because of our ownattachment wounds.
Yeah, yeah, and and ourunderlying insecurity that no
one else is gonna love becauseof again, right?
Our our caregiver experience.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (24:41):
So this is like a big, deep, wide job to like I'm
actually getting sweaty in mypit who's talking about it,
right?
SPEAKER_02 (24:50):
And to the women out there that feel like that's all
you deserve from three womenthat have been in that
situation, we would love to tellyou how much bullshit that is
because all of us are now beingloved way better than in our
past lives.
SPEAKER_01 (25:06):
Okay.
Is it time for the question?
You're waiting.
Okay.
So this question, if you're notdriving your car right now, if
you're driving your car, youcannot write this down right
now.
But if you're not driving yourcar right now, I want you to
physically pause what you'redoing.
If you're walking, I want you tostop and type it in your phone.
(25:28):
I want you to write this downbecause there's something that
shifts from hearing something towhen you transcribe it for
yourself.
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (25:37):
Is this gonna be a good mirror message?
SPEAKER_01 (25:39):
Um maybe, maybe.
We do love a good mirror messagearound here, right?
But I do think it's somethingthat is valuable to put in your
journal and like rewrite itevery day for a period of time.
I think that it's such a big,big, big question.
It makes us really pause andcatch it catches our breath for
(26:00):
a moment.
So, all right, that's a lot of,I know.
All right, let me see if I candeliver.
All right, so the the buildupabout this question is about
okay, it's a big picture job torehab your self-esteem, your
self-image.
It's a big picture job to rehabyour attachment style and to
feel worthy of love andbelonging.
(26:21):
And it's a big picture job to,you know, spot his avoidant
behavior and stop getting hookedby it, right?
But sometimes you need that onetool that helps you pause in
your tracks and make a change inthe moment.
Because in the moment, you can'tjust decide to change how you
feel about yourself, right?
In your own esteem.
That's a process.
So, this question is designed tobe a tool that you can use.
(26:41):
And the more often you askyourself this question, the more
you will be able to break thecycle in the moment when he is
doing his avoiding crap andyou're feeling hooked by it.
Okay.
So I want you to stop and askyourself this.
Am I about to respond as thewoman he trained me to be?
Or as the woman I am becoming?
(27:03):
Yes.
Ooh.
Am I about to respond as thewoman he trained me to be, or my
parents trained me to be, right?
But I think it's when we say hetrained me to be, or as the
woman I am becoming.
And I think in that moment, whenyou frame it like that, there's
(27:25):
a push, there's an internalmotivation to make a different
choice, even when you feel likeit's out of reach.
All of a sudden it becomesslightly more in reach to delay.
And then if I were gonna giveone more piece of advice in
those moments, right, where itfeels hard to break the cycle,
is reach out to someone, reachout to someone.
And I don't just mean yourgirlfriend that's gonna like get
(27:46):
you all ginned up.
I mean the person that is goingto help you in the big picture
shift and hold you accountableand support you and speaking to
you in the way you need, right?
Someone who's really going tohelp you do the bigger picture
transformation that you aremoving towards.
So call that person or people,whoever they are.
And if you don't have one, thensend us a DM.
(28:07):
Like, come on now.
What would you ladies add, ifanything?
SPEAKER_02 (28:11):
I mean, I think that that is so powerful.
And I wish I would have had thatwhen I was going through all the
times because I knew exactlywhat he needed in the moment
when he was reaching out.
Yes, I was conditioned toprovide what he needed.
But as I started to change andshift and set boundaries, he
stopped reaching out to mebecause I wasn't giving him the
satisfaction of giving him whathe needed in those moments.
(28:34):
Like I wasn't that place for himanymore.
SPEAKER_01 (28:38):
Well, this has been a really fun episode to record.
We've done some attachment stylestuff before.
We've done some deep actually, Ithink we have a whole attachment
series we did.
Um, but this one is coming at itfrom a very different angle and
really, really cool to record itfrom this perspective with the
three of us.
Like totally different.
(28:58):
If you haven't yet joinedCocoon, which is our community
of women on the Heartbeat app,if you have not yet joined
Cocoon so that you canparticipate in the weekly magic
drop where you just engage inour little weekly challenge.
They're just super fun littleengagement pieces.
And then you're entered to win alittle prize that week.
(29:21):
And the prize could be like thecoolest book on mental health or
boundaries or recovery, or itcould be like a fun little
healing tool we've talked abouton previous Thursday episodes,
or it could be a gift card, orit could be like Lord knows
what, we've got so many coollittle magic drops planned, but
they're like fun little glow-upsto assist you in your healing
journey.
So if you are not part of thecocoon community in the
(29:41):
Heartbeat app, make sure youscroll to the bottom of the show
notes.
You are going to find a linkdown there to get our post
divorce roadmap free.
Follow me here.
Post divorce roadmap is our 21day immersive journaling
program.
And right now we are giving thataway for free using the code
MAGICDrop.
Um, and so when you use the codeMAGID Drop, To download the Post
(30:01):
Divorce Roadmap for free.
It's automatically going tobring you into our cocoon
community.
So then you're in the cocooncommunity, you have the
immersive journaling for free,and then you are part of the
space where you can do thelittle magic drop contest, and
then boom, Bob's your uncle, andyou get free stuff.
Okay.
We'll see you in Cocoon.
Peace.
Peace.com.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Ruthie's Table 4
For more than 30 years The River Cafe in London, has been the home-from-home of artists, architects, designers, actors, collectors, writers, activists, and politicians. Michael Caine, Glenn Close, JJ Abrams, Steve McQueen, Victoria and David Beckham, and Lily Allen, are just some of the people who love to call The River Cafe home. On River Cafe Table 4, Rogers sits down with her customers—who have become friends—to talk about food memories. Table 4 explores how food impacts every aspect of our lives. “Foods is politics, food is cultural, food is how you express love, food is about your heritage, it defines who you and who you want to be,” says Rogers. Each week, Rogers invites her guest to reminisce about family suppers and first dates, what they cook, how they eat when performing, the restaurants they choose, and what food they seek when they need comfort. And to punctuate each episode of Table 4, guests such as Ralph Fiennes, Emily Blunt, and Alfonso Cuarón, read their favourite recipe from one of the best-selling River Cafe cookbooks. Table 4 itself, is situated near The River Cafe’s open kitchen, close to the bright pink wood-fired oven and next to the glossy yellow pass, where Ruthie oversees the restaurant. You are invited to take a seat at this intimate table and join the conversation. For more information, recipes, and ingredients, go to https://shoptherivercafe.co.uk/ Web: https://rivercafe.co.uk/ Instagram: www.instagram.com/therivercafelondon/ Facebook: https://en-gb.facebook.com/therivercafelondon/ For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iheartradio app, apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.com
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com