February 20, 2024 • 58 mins
Ooh, my little pretty one…who was really going to be somebody by age 23
On today’s episode of Deep Thoughts About Stupid Sh*t, Tracie revisits the film of Generation X: Reality Bites. Despite passing the Bechdel test with flying colors, the story of documentary filmmaker Lelaina (played by Winona Ryder) not only seems to present the audience with a choice between selling out and suffering (while being insulted by Ethan Hawke), but it also has erased the authorship of the film’s writer, filmmaker Helen Childress, by attributing her choices to director Ben Stiller.
Listen in as we turn up the volume and dance in the gas station mini mart along with Lelaina, Vickie, Sammy!
Mentioned in this episode:
The Atlantic's look back at Reality Bites
Our theme music is "Professor Umlaut" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/
Learn more about Tracie and Emily (including our other projects), join the Guy Girls' family, secure exclusive access to bonus episodes, video versions, and early access to Deep Thoughts by visiting us on Patreon.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
This is Tracy Guy-Dekker and you're listening
to Deep Thoughts about StupidShit, because pop culture is
still culture, and shouldn't youknow what's in your head?
Today I'll be sharing my deepthoughts about the 1994 film
Reality Bites with my sister,emily Guy Berkin, and with you.
Let's dive in.
Have you ever had something youlove dismissed because it's
(00:22):
just pop culture, what othersmight deem stupid shit?
You know matters, you know it'sworth talking and thinking
about, and so do we.
So come over, think with us aswe delve into our deep thoughts
about stupid shit.
Okay, so I know you rememberthe movie, because we just did a
little huddle up right beforewe hit record.
(00:43):
But remind me what you rememberabout this movie and how you
first encountered it.
If you remember, I think you do.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
So I believe the first time I saw it was when Ed
surgery on my feet when I was 15.
I'm one foot than the other.
It was minor skin surgery butstill I couldn't walk, so I
would have been in 1994.
It was like sometime aroundAugust 1994 and I remember that
you got this movie and a coupleothers from Blunt Buster and we
(01:15):
set up the TV and VCR in mybedroom and we laid on my bed
and watched it together and, asI recall, you and I both liked
it so much we watched it morethan once during that recovery
period.
So I had a similar relationshipto this movie as I did to the
breakfast club, in that it wasabout people who were a little
(01:36):
bit older than I was and I tookit to mean that this is what I
had to look forward to.
So that's what I thought beingin my 20s was going to be like.
When I was 15.
Looking forward, I rememberthat I loved the love story and
in my early 20s, sometime in theearly 2000s, around 2001-2002,
(01:59):
friend of mine said, yeah, thatmovie is proof that the asshole
always gets the girl and I waslike what are you talking about?
My friend, having said that,made me kind of reevaluate the
love triangle in the story.
I don't know if that's when Ifirst started, but like it got
(02:20):
me thinking about how oftenstories present the brooding
jerk as like the romantic heroand how much I have been like
funnelled into believing thatthat's, you know, I can make him
happy.
So that was something that'skind of left a bad taste in my
(02:41):
mouth and I don't think that Ihave revisited the film since
then.
So that would have been about20 years ago or a little more.
And then there are a couple ofthings that stand out from that
film, most obviously theMascherona scene.
It just feels it's iconic.
It's an iconic scene and itfeels very Gen X in a way that
(03:04):
makes me feel like I was born in1979, so I'm very much on the
cusp of Gen X and Millennials.
I self-identify as Gen X andthat scene is one of the things
that makes me like proud to be aGen Xer, even though I have a
relatively loose claim on it.
(03:25):
So tell us, why are we talkingabout this?
Speaker 1 (03:28):
film today.
Yeah, so if we watched it inAugust of 94, that was like
right before I went away tocollege.
And this film, it's funny.
I agree with you that this sitsin a similar spot to the
Breakfast Club, which is thelast movie that I brought to you
, and I think that's probablywhy I put them in succession
like this, in my own kind ofexploration.
And there's nine years betweenthem, and so I was closer to the
(03:53):
age of reality bites than I wasto the kids in Breakfast Club,
at least when it was releasedinitially.
But I think, like you, theywere sort of more like.
This is what it's going to belike and very close for me for
Reality Bites, and more so thanthe Breakfast Club.
Like in the Breakfast Club wetalked about the fact that I
didn't, there wasn't a characterwith whom I was like that's me.
(04:18):
I so completely identified withWinona Ryder's Lilaina that in
my mind, like Winona Ryder, wasmy Hollywood persona you know
she was like if I was ever, ifthere was ever a movie in my
life, winona was gonna play me.
You know, like she was thepolished, prettier version of me
(04:40):
, and so there was thisself-identification that
actually became completelydivorced from the movie itself
in some ways well, notcompletely, because I still
understood that Reality Biteslike but it was what it got
built up to in my brain.
Now that I've just rewatched itin order to prepare to talk to
you, they weren't the same.
They weren't like in the 30years or however like it
(05:04):
definitely like evolved in mybrain.
I don't even know if Iremembered the character's name
prior to rewatching it.
I didn't, but there wassomething like deeply
self-identified in this movie.
So what we're missing inBreakfast Club was the
overachieving kind of nerdy, ifyou will.
(05:26):
Female character Lilaina is thevaledictorian of her graduating
class in college and at onepoint when she's feeling down on
herself because she thought shewas gonna do something by the
time she was 23 which, lookingback and I'm like, oh honey, but
(05:46):
that was real.
Speaker 2 (05:48):
Yes, I felt that at 15.
That was real and yeah yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:56):
So that's why I wanted to talk about it.
That was this like formativecharacter that I really
self-identified with and aspiredto in a certain way.
And so, you know, thinkingabout our project, I wanted to
go back and look at like, whatare those building blocks that I
was putting into my aspirations, that I was seeing myself
(06:17):
resonance in?
And your friend was right likeit's, I don't love it.
Looking back on it, I do notlove it.
You know, when I'm a writeradorable, in fact, I was I felt
validated.
I was in the middle of the filmand my spouse walked in and was
like, oh, she's like a youngerversion of you, and I was like,
(06:38):
oh yeah, I think so too, I'mgonna urge you for this very
moment.
Right, but Lilaina makes somereally poor choices and she's
just, completely predictably, 47year old.
Tracy does not think that 23year old Lilaina has things
together as much as 18 year oldTracy thought Lilaina had things
(07:01):
together.
Yeah, yeah, so and that's youknow, that's okay, but I'd like
to, I'd like to dig into it alittle bit.
So there there are some surfacelevel things that in the
intervening 30 years, like justkind of are unpleasant on screen
, that I'll name.
And then there are two kind ofbig things that I want to unpack
(07:23):
in the movie, and that's sortof the idea of selling out
versus like being pure to yourartistic vision and the love
triangle that you identifiedbetween Ethan Hawkes-Troy and
Ben Stiller's Michael.
And then, in a meta level, Iwant to talk about the erasure
of female creators a little bit,especially as it comes to
(07:44):
actually that, my sharonasine.
So those are the things thatI'm I'm gonna get into, but
first let me give a quick recapof the plot such as it is.
It's not huge, like not a lothappens.
It's kind of a slice of lifesort of a little bit.
Speaker 2 (07:59):
I mean, there is some plot.
Speaker 1 (08:01):
But so we meet Lilaina and her friends.
Lilaina what on a writer'scharacter is an aspiring
documentarian and so the veryfirst thing we see, we see we
are very clearly shown that thisis a videotape.
Like we see the word vcr andit's kind of grainy and it's her
giving the valedictorian speech.
She is missing a card and solike the punchline is missing
(08:24):
from her speech and then we seethem, kind of her and her
friends, kind of goofing off.
So it's when on a writer'sLilaina.
Then there's Janine Graffalo'sVicki, ethan Hawkes-Troy and
then Steve Zahn's Sammy.
Those are sort of the corefriend group that we follow,
partially from behind Lainey'scamera and partially sort of in
(08:45):
the like third person omniscientmovie.
So we immediately learn thatLainey's parents are divorced
and there's a lot of tension.
They're all out to dinner.
Ethan Hawkes-Troy is a bestfriend but not a boyfriend.
Lainey works for a morning showwith the guy that played the dad
(09:06):
from Frasier as the the morningshow host.
He's a dick but he plays thislike very charming, like guy on
on the show.
It's Lainey's job to write hisscript on little no cards, kind
of like the ones she used on herspeech.
And there's some tension therebecause like he thinks she
should be like also making hiscoffee, which she doesn't want
(09:29):
to do.
So we get a little bit of likediscomfort there.
Vicki works at the gap, troyworks in a little like newsstand
.
Troy immediately gets fired forstealing his knickers and moves
in with Lainey and Vicki.
Lilaina and Vicki are out inthe car and had this little meet
cute with Ben Stiller's Michael, because Lilaina throws a lit
(09:52):
cigarette out the window, itlands in his convertible and
sort of starts a fire likesmoking on something that's on
his passenger seat and he endsup hitting her car, which was a
hand me down from her stepmother.
Speaker 2 (10:04):
Oh, and her father gives her a gas credit card in
that first scene, doesn't?
Speaker 1 (10:08):
he.
Speaker 2 (10:08):
Yes, he does, so that her gas is covered for the for
the year.
Speaker 1 (10:13):
A year?
Yes, exactly.
So we meet Michael.
He's about their age, a littlebit older, but not much, just
still mid 20s, and he has kindof a high power job at an MTV
like network called In your Face, and we are shown pretty early
how ridiculous this network iswhen there's a, an influencer
(10:35):
personality who Lainey'swatching it on the TV and she's
doing an ad for this likedesigner scarf that has the
colors of the bloods and thecrypts and it's only $75.
I mean, it's just absolutelyridiculous and it's so memorable
that part okay, it's like 30seconds.
(10:57):
The point was to sort of lampoonthis this network, this MTV
style network.
Okay, lainey's immediate boss wedon't actually get to know this
person, but he shows the hostof the show, lainey's
documentary footage and says Ithink she's really talented.
Lainey's out, you know, justoutside listening, so she's
(11:20):
eavesdropping on this.
The immediate boss is like Ithink she's really talented, I'd
love to show this.
And the guy's like no, I don'tknow, we only do sunny stuff,
not this broody shit.
And I don't, I would.
I want you to get rid of her.
I don't like her pointy face.
And he insults her Completedick, yeah, yeah, she can.
She can hear him.
He doesn't know she can hearhim.
(11:40):
So she ends up sort ofretaliating by putting since she
writes his cards for his script, he doesn't review them in
advance.
So he goes on camera and saysI've always liked very, very
young girls, cause that's whatit says on his card.
And then he's like uh, and heflips to the next card and he's
(12:00):
he's talking to an author atthis point and he says being a
total prick.
So so Lainey loses her job.
Yeah, as she should.
So she has a little bit of acrisis.
Ethan Hawks, troy, kind oftries to comfort her cause.
He's been fired from like 13jobs or something.
(12:23):
And this is all we need, lainey, a couple of cigarettes, good
conversation in you and me.
And then he tries to kiss her.
She's like, no, I can't do thiscause I can't lose you.
And then he gives her the coldshoulder.
Meanwhile, uh, she starts datingMichael Ben Stiller's Michael
and Michael is a little awkward,a little silly, but like a nice
(12:45):
guy they have a nice timetogether.
He clearly really really likesher.
We get a line in their firstdate that at the time in 94, I
thought was hilarious.
It's not that funny now.
But they're talking and he sayssomething like you're really
beautiful.
Like really, really, I can'tbelieve how, like some, like
(13:05):
he's falling over himself abouthow good looking she is and
she's uncomfortable.
So, to change the subject,she's like are you religious or
at all?
Which feels like a really weirdnon sequitur.
Looking back on it, he says, ohwell, I guess you could say I'm
a non practicing Jew.
And she says, well, I guess youcould say I'm a non practicing
virgin.
And then they just look at eachother and like uncomfortable
(13:27):
awkwardness.
So the rivalry between Michael,who is emotionally available,
has a steady job, doesn't mindtelling her that he.
I mean, at one point heactually says he loves her and
then it's like oh wait, whatYou're amazing.
Like, in the same breath hesays I think you're amazing and
(13:49):
I love you, whereas Ethan Hawks,troy, like, at one point is
like I'm totally in love withyou.
That's what you want me to say,isn't it?
Don't flatter yourself Like.
He's so mean to her over andover and over again.
He's so mean to her.
The real day new mall if thereis one is that Michael shows
(14:13):
Lainey's videos to his bossesand they like it, they want to
buy it.
And she was just about to sellplasma.
You know, like she's like hasno money.
In fact, the gas card comesback because she can't pay rent.
And so she her dad had givenher a gas card.
She tries, she tries to get ajob.
Lots of different places istold she's over qualified, she
(14:35):
can't find a job.
She even tries to get a job atlike Wiener Schnitzel, like a
drive through hot dog place, andthe, you know, the manager is
like there's a reason I've beenhere six months.
She can't get a job at a hotdog place and she asks each of
her parents for a loan.
Both of them deny her.
So she starts using the gascard creatively and like paying
(15:01):
for people's gas and they giveher cash.
And then Michael says he cansell her video and or her movie
to his people and they're and tomake a show out of it.
And she's super excited andit's amazing.
And then they go to the movie.
There's some, you know,growling at one another between
Ethan Hawke and Ben Stiller, butthey go to the premiere.
He says I haven't seen it yet,she hasn't seen their edits.
(15:23):
And they show the edits andwe've been watching the
documentary footage throughoutand it's like grainy and not
particularly well composed andbrooding and very serious and it
has been spliced up MPV stylewith lots of animation and like
quick cuts and I kind ofremember there being like sound
(15:45):
effects, to like spying typesound effects.
Speaker 2 (15:48):
Am I misremembering that or?
Speaker 1 (15:49):
There was a soundtrack, I don't.
Oh, okay, okay.
And there was product placement.
So like at one point from theraw footage they were like pizza
, pizza is a good idea.
And so it's like all of themlike quick cuts, pizza, pizza,
pizza.
And then you see, like pizzahut and it's like animated with,
like not drawn but like cutouts, and yeah, okay, yeah.
(16:13):
And she is just devastated bythis, like this is not mine, and
runs away.
And Michael is like I didn'tknow they would do it, I didn't
see it, I'll make them take thepizza bit out.
And we're meant to think thathe just doesn't get it Right.
So she's really devastated bythis.
(16:36):
Just having a moment when Troycomes upon, her kind of
wallowing.
And that's when she says Ireally thought that I was going
to do something by the time Iwas 23.
They finally do get together.
They have sex.
The sex scene is like realclose up of their faces and sort
of like we could have beendoing this all along, like
(16:58):
you're my best friend.
But then he bails super earlyin the morning, like just runs
away.
So the next day he's in a bandcalled hey, that's my bike.
Oh, that's right, yes.
So the next day or a couple ofdays later they're at the bar
where hey, that's my bikeperforms and Michael shows up
(17:20):
and he has two tickets, twoplane tickets to go to New York.
He wants her to go with him topitch her show the way she wants
to do it to his bosses.
And Troy is, you know, growlingand jealous and Lainey kind of
pulls Troy aside and is likewhat is happening?
(17:40):
You ran away.
And he is like you know,sometimes I'm going to do things
that you don't like and that'sjust how it is.
And she runs away from both ofthem.
They have a moment in thestreets where Ben Stiller says
you know, you're like the courtjuster, and you know Hamlet
finds his skull and he diedalone and like yeah, people say
(18:03):
yeah, he was funny.
But Troy says everybody diesalone.
Michael says if you reallybelieve that, who are you
looking for out here?
Michael throws down the planetickets into the street and then
the next scene.
We see Troy getting on a plane,and so initially you're almost
thinking like he took thetickets off the street.
(18:24):
But no, it turns out his fatherdied and he went home, to
wherever home is, for thefuneral.
He was fairly estranged fromhis dad and Lilaina is just
missing him.
He's just absolutely pining forhim and is just about to run
out of her apartment to go lookfor him.
She's Sammy, tells her that hewent home, so she's just about
(18:47):
to try and like I don't know butgo look for him and a cab pulls
up and drops him off and they,you know, apologize and the
movie ends with them in eachother's arms.
So that's the basic plot.
So the quick things Bechteltest, yes, flying colors.
Lilaina and Vicky talk aboutlots of stuff, not just boys
(19:11):
race.
I counted two black actors inthe whole movie.
There's the author that thedick boss is talking to when he
gets the cards, and then whenLani is trying to get a job
she's trying, she starts withradio and the would be boss is a
black man who says I trust mygut and my gut says this is a
(19:33):
bad fit and that's it.
And there's also you sort ofsurface level.
Like the characters, like allof them smoke like chimneys,
which is really oh gosh, I hadno memory of that.
Yeah, Like there's, Lani alwayshas a cigarette in her hand.
Speaker 2 (19:52):
Okay, I kind of remembered that Ethan Hawks
smoked, but I did not remember.
Speaker 1 (19:56):
Yeah, no, that's how she meets Michael, because she
like flicks her.
Speaker 2 (20:00):
Oh, that's right, that's right.
That's right, that's right,okay yeah.
And then he hit her car.
That's all I remember about it.
Yeah, okay yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:12):
And in fact they show the passage of time with the
cigarette butts building up inthe ashtray at one point Okay.
Okay.
Which is like really, it's justwhat's the word?
It's surprising because TVtoday you really don't see
cigarettes at all, yeah, ormovies, or very rarely.
Speaker 2 (20:30):
Unless they're set in a specific time period.
But even then, like I was, Ijust recently watched Chinatown
again with my husband and I wasthinking about how many
cigarettes there are, which isperfectly in keeping with the
time that it's set in.
But it also felt like adifferent choice, like they
(20:52):
would have had cigarettes oncein a while if they made it now.
Speaker 1 (20:56):
Yeah, yeah.
So anyway, go ahead.
And then the other thing thatstood out to me in this rewatch
is the frequency and casual nesswith which they use the ableist
R word.
It just shows up again andagain.
So those are a couple of likesurface things that you know
kind of well that I noticed,just easy to check off quickly.
(21:19):
Also, queer representation.
So we have Scammy, who's like apart of the friend group but not
like he is and isn't, and thereis actually some not
insignificant amount of screentime devoted to his coming out
or why he's still in the closetand those sorts of things about
his relationship with his family, which is which is actually for
(21:39):
30 years ago.
I think was well done.
The two big things that I wantto talk about are related.
So let's talk about selling out.
First, at one point when she'sshe's trying to Lane, is trying
to get a job at a newspaperbecause she's like you know, I'm
a journalist, so like, and thewoman who is her would be boss
(22:00):
is like I just don't see it.
And then the woman she saysdefine irony and Lainey can't.
And then she comes to a dinerand finds Troy, and he does
without hesitation, which isanother way that the movie
makers prove to us that he'ssmart.
But there's something like I'mnot sure irony is the right word
(22:23):
.
It's almost like hypocrisy aboutthis movie that there's some
weird tension.
For me it's all aboutlampooning sellouts from a major
motion picture, you know, froma major motion picture from a
(22:44):
major house.
Like it's not like this was in.
It was like they wanted it tofeel indie but it wasn't.
And there's something likealive in that tension that feels
actually like the tension ofGen X.
There are folks, like you,identify this as a Gen X movie.
I think you're right.
Like this is a solidly Gen X.
(23:07):
It could only have been writtenby a Gen Xer you know.
Speaker 2 (23:11):
So just this morning I was asked to answer some
questions for an article or forsomebody coming out, because I
wrote an article about Gen Xretirements, and so they reached
out to me said, will you answersome questions?
And so I did a little bit ofresearch and like when you type
in Gen X retirements, one of thearticles that I pulled up for
(23:32):
research, the image they had wasfrom reality bites.
Speaker 1 (23:35):
Yeah, so Well.
I was reading this morning likeI don't even think we had that
term yet when this movie wasmade.
They were still calling us babybusters because there were so
few of us.
Speaker 2 (23:47):
Oh gosh, I had forgotten that, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (23:52):
So there's something like complicated and it feels
potentially toxic when I lookback on it this lampooning of
selling out being sold to me inthis major motion picture that
had a lot of product placement,which maybe was ironic.
Maybe, I don't.
(24:15):
I mean, it was certainly meantto be.
It was very obvious within theMTV version or the In your Face
version of Leni's video, butit's throughout the movie Like
she talks about how important abig gulp is to her and Troy says
like quarter pounders aresomething worth getting up for.
(24:36):
Yeah.
Yeah, there's McDonald's,there's Diet Coke, there's a lot
of like product placement inthis movie and it just feels
potentially toxic or easilytwisted in a way that actually
feels very similar to and isrelated, it's resonant, with the
(24:57):
so-called choice between thesetwo men.
So Michael represents sellingout and Troy represents saying
true to your so-called artisticvision and the filmmakers I mean
you and I both, and I think, alot of us watching we got the
message.
Ethan Hawke was the guy, he wasthe one she chose correctly,
(25:22):
but did she?
I mean this dude was mean to her, which he suggests is him being
true to his artistic vision,like him being true to himself,
somehow being mean to her.
Unpredictable, unreliable, nojob, no ambition or afraid of
(25:42):
ambition, like.
There is this judgment ofmaterialism which gets completed
with a judgment of anythingother than sitting around and
brooding.
And what's interesting withinthe universe of the movie is
Michael knows it, he's trying toconvince Lainey that he's not
(26:05):
materialistic, he doesn't carethat much about stuff and she's
like look at you, give yourdesigner suits or whatever.
Speaker 2 (26:16):
Couple of things that I think are interesting here.
One is I feel like Gen X as ageneration, as a group of people
, is uniquely concerned aboutselling out, like I think that
happened in earlier generations.
I think I'm sure it's happenedin later generations.
I have a theory as to why thatis, and it's the 80s being Gen
(26:38):
X's formative years, whereeverything was slick and money
and sell, sell, sell and createas good and all of that, and so
that's like the rejection ofthat culture.
So I think that that's reallyinteresting.
The issue is that there is noactual alternative.
(26:58):
It's you either sell out or youstay true to your artistic
vision.
But what does that mean?
How do you get your art to thepeople who will appreciate it?
Because there is no alternativeoffered, and that is what I
(27:20):
mean.
That's the way madness lies.
And then that also means youget people who just sit around
brooding without actuallywriting something or creating
something or doing anything.
Speaker 1 (27:29):
I think I'd push it even further.
The alternative that's offeredis suffering, and if you're not
suffering you're somehow notThen you're selling out.
It's suffer or sell out, andwhat a shitty choice.
And that is the choice thatLaney's given suffer with this
good-looking friend who treatsyou badly.
Yeah, or sell out with this guywho actually cares about you,
(27:55):
can say he cares about you, hasmoney, has a job, is reliable,
and we're told clearly that thesuffering is the right choice.
Speaker 2 (28:06):
Yeah, you know something else that just came up
to me that I mentioned lastnight when we were talking.
For all of my life I've hadthis sense there's a ticking
clock that I have to do orcreate something remarkable when
I am young and until recently Ihad never really wrestled with
(28:30):
it or examined it.
It just was.
And I realized that thatticking clock was about my own
attractiveness and my sense thatI can only do or create
something remarkable while I amconventionally attractive.
And to further, because thepeople who decide that something
(28:51):
remarkable has been done aremen and wow, that's F-dub.
I mean, I'm really not OK withthat being in my head.
However, Laney saying I thoughtI'd be somebody by the time I
was 23 fits in with that.
That's the part of the reasonwhy that resonated with me is
because, even as a 15-year-oldwatching this movie, I felt that
(29:13):
ticking clock because I need todo this when I am some pretty
young thing.
And having that in my head andI'm sure I'm not the only one
who has that in my head, I haveit in that very specific way,
but I didn't know it was thereuntil I really wrestled with it
(29:33):
makes Michael's offer at the endfeel a little different in that
Like, just objectively, if wetake how women are socialized in
20th century and now 21stcentury America out of it.
If this is just aliens,obviously Michael's the right
(29:56):
choice In this context.
I know I would feel awkwardabout the fact that I got my big
break because I was sleepingwith a guy.
There's so much tangled up inthere, and then it's also the
fact that I can say that I feelweird about it.
(30:17):
But the thing is that's howthings work.
You know people.
You know people who know peopleand they're like hey, I can get
this to my boss and that's howit works.
And she was doing that with herboss at the morning show.
So I don't know if Laney wouldhave a problem with it.
I would, and all of that.
I wonder how much art we'vemissed out on because people
(30:41):
aren't willing to sell out.
Like my writing career.
When I first started it, Istarted freelancing just to get
some money coming in and I justhappened to get a money blog, as
one of my first clients wholiked my work passed my name
along to friends.
You know, eight months later,10 months later, I'm getting to
be known as a money writer andwas invited to a financial media
(31:06):
conference and I almost didn'tgo Because I was like, well, I
don't want to be a money.
I mean I'm supposed to be anovelist, like I'm supposed to
be a real writer.
And about six weeks before theconference I woke up in the
middle of the night going likepeople want to pay me to write.
What is wrong with me?
Like why am I saying no to this?
And like, what vision am Ihewing to that I can do more
(31:30):
easily by not embracing thisopportunity.
And so that's this really weirdpush pull.
That, I think, is not.
It's not just this movie.
This movie describes it, but Ithink that that is mean.
What was the name of the author?
Helen Children Children.
She experienced it.
I mean, this is something thatis common in our generation.
(31:52):
But, wow, I feel like there's alot that we've missed out on
because people are like, well,no, no, no, that's not pure
enough, that would be sellingout.
Speaker 1 (32:01):
It's interesting that irony.
So just define irony?
She can't, but she knows itwhen she sees it she has to try
to define it.
He says it's when the truemeaning is the exact opposite of
the literal meaning.
I think that actually was a bigold clue.
That's a piece of exposition, Ithink, in the In Childress's
script.
Here that is related to whatyou're talking about, because so
(32:24):
, vicky, we see one of our firstintroductions to Vicky is a man
sneaking out of her bedroomtrying not to wake her.
She was pretending to be asleep.
The moment he's gone, she pullsout this little notebook and
she writes down the date and hisname with a question mark.
She's not 100% sure sheremembers it.
He's number 66.
(32:47):
In this book of lovers, yeah,yeah.
And there's a conversation thatshe and Leni have later where
you know she says they run awayimmediately, like I'm not the
kind of girl who has arelationship.
(33:08):
That's, those aren't her words,I'm paraphrasing, you know.
And Leni's like what are youtalking about?
You're out the door before heeven takes the condom off.
And it's made clear in thatmoment, like she says something,
like I'm just doing it beforethey do it to me.
You know so the irony of youknow this casual sex, and that
(33:28):
that's what she wants is casualsex.
What she really wants isrelationship.
But then there's this fear.
It's this fear, this resistanceto selling out, is like a fear
of success, and it's.
I think that part of what isuncomfortable to me watching
this movie now, 30 years later,is that I'm like, oh, that fear
(33:53):
of success is so old I don'teven recognize it and I put the
clothes on it of I'm not sellingout, I'm not gonna sell out,
you know, and that's just like Imean.
Speaker 2 (34:12):
I guess I'm glad I know it's in my head, but you
know this, and I do think it'stelling that Helen Childress,
you know, was herself afilmmaker and she based this.
Speaker 1 (34:24):
This is very autobiographical.
Yes, yes, In fact there'sactually a man named Troy Dyer
who sued her for using his tape.
Apparently he's more like theMichael character, but it's
settled out of court.
Speaker 2 (34:37):
I find it telling because, like you know, a lot of
this is about the pain of beinga creator, because what you're
able to actually put on the pageor on the screen never fits
what's in your head.
So there's already this likepain of selling out just in the
act of creation.
And I can recall I think it wassomething Elizabeth Gilbert was
(35:00):
writing about, where she wastalking about how she written
this piece short fiction and itwas not long, it was like 5,000
words and it was somethingprestigious said we'll take it,
but you need to get it down tolike under 2,000 words, which is
like so the bulk of the story.
And she was just like I'venever treated my story so
(35:22):
roughly, and she was mentioningthis to I think it was a
boyfriend of hers or somethingwho was like oh, I would never
do that, I would never Like,because Elizabeth Gilbert is not
above petty, she's like, andhe's never been published.
But that is like this film haslike made that, that fear of
(35:46):
creation, fear of success,because it's not the ideal that
we want.
It's made it real in a way thatresonates with people who
aren't creators as well.
Yeah, in some ways, that's ashame.
In some ways I think that'sjust, that's partially like,
that's human nature and then insome ways I think, like I said,
I think Gen X was primed toreject the values and the
(36:10):
materialism and the expectationsof the previous generation,
particularly because it livedthrough the 80s.
Speaker 1 (36:17):
Yeah, yeah, speaking of creators and that gap between
what's in your head and whatgets put on the screen,
something really interestinghappened with this movie that
you named that my Charona scene.
So there's a scene there in thegas station.
My Charona comes on the radio.
Vicky says oh, turn it up, youwon't be sorry, the gas station
is tender.
Turns it up.
It's my Charona and Vicky andLilaina and Sammy all dance and
(36:42):
Troy just smirks and then youkind of the camera cuts to
outside.
You can still hear the musicand it's like this beautiful
sunset and they're dancing.
It's a really visuallybeautiful scene.
And looking back on it, lookingback on the movie, the 25th
anniversary like people weretalking about that and I don't
(37:02):
remember who, but one of theproducers was like, yeah, that
was really Ben's vision.
Ben Stiller was the director ofthis movie, in addition to
playing Michael, and Childresswrote that scene exactly.
In the script it says you know,and then pan out and the
whatever.
And I read this, and there's anarticle in the Atlantic about
(37:26):
the movie that I'll link to inthe show notes, although it is
behind the paywall, so sorry,but the author points out that
this female creator who wrote astory about her life, had to
prove that she wrote it, that itwas hers.
She had to prove that it washers.
You know, because people aregiving Ben Stiller the credit
(37:47):
for this scene, which is sort ofthe iconic scene of this or an
iconic scene from this iconicGen X movie.
The Childress had to be like no, I wrote that, that was mine.
Like she had to pull up thescript book to be like that's
not Ben, that's me, and there'ssomething like so quintessential
(38:13):
of that need to reclaim.
I mean, this is anautobiographical film that she
had to prove was hers, at leastfor the moment that captured
culture's imagination andthere's something like that just
(38:34):
further layers the problematicsand the awkwardness and the
pressure on this notion ofselling out and artistic vision
and being true to one's identitywhen you layer that piece of it
onto it as well, Right, andit's like there's all these
(38:56):
layers of meta, right Cause oneof the things that Lainey says
that she wants, that she's doing, that she wants to do, is she's
telling these stories about herfriends who are trying to find
their own identities withoutreal role models or heroes.
Like that's what she says aboutherself and her friends.
And so this notion of liketrying to find your identity and
then also needing to defend it,being afraid of it.
(39:19):
Being afraid of it also likeneeding to pay rent.
Speaker 2 (39:25):
You know it's interesting.
The erasure of Helen Childressis like creation of that iconic
moment, which is horrifying.
But I feel like that gets tosomething I mentioned last week,
which is that when it comes tolike iconic women and non-men
(39:48):
creators, we have this tendencyto act like they have no
influences, and then one of theways that we do that is by
erasing the women from the stuffthat they did so like.
Oh yeah, that's Ben's movie.
Now, I probably knew at somepoint that Ben Stiller directed
this.
Like.
It was one of those like.
(40:09):
I read it this morning and Iwasn't surprised it was his
first direct real debut.
And so like I knew it at somepoint, but it's not.
I don't associate Like to me.
This is when I think about it.
It's Winona Ryder and JeanineGarofalo's movie and that's what
I remember from that scene.
That was also.
That's not the first time Iheard my Cherona, but that was
(40:34):
that movie's how I learned toappreciate that song.
But that is like I know.
Sammy is there also dancing,and Troy is there and not
dancing, but in my head what Iremember are the two women
dancing together.
And so like this scene writtenby a woman in a song about a
woman, because Cherona's a realperson with like two iconic Gen
(41:02):
X women actors dancing and theygo yeah, that's Ben, that's.
That's effing infuriating,because one of the reasons why
that scene is remembered and whyit's iconic is because it gave
me the sense that joy is alwaysavailable, even among these
(41:25):
extremely stressful situations.
Speaker 1 (41:27):
Yes, and also there's because of Troy Smirk and the
boomer attendant who actuallydid the turning up of the volume
, who's just like giving themlike this it's.
It's not exactly judgmental,like he's not like, but it is
judgmental.
But you know, sort of what areyou doing as opposed to.
(41:47):
It's one of the kids these days, isn't it?
Yeah, and not, and not a.
Not an anger, I guess, is whatI'm trying to say, but just a
like a lack of understanding.
Yeah, and I think thatsubversion of decorum, as if you
need to have decorum in a foodmart, at a gas station but still
(42:08):
they are in public and then andthey just, you know, break out
dancing.
So joy is always available, evenin sort of stressful times, and
also, like that, the notion ofdecorum in public, if joy is on
the table, it is is rejected,and I and I think that's also a
piece of that that is beautiful.
Speaker 2 (42:29):
Well, and it's the other thing that I appreciate
about it is that it pushes backagainst the choice of the world,
who think that optimism andhope and joy are uncool.
Speaker 1 (42:41):
Yes, Because there is nobody cooler than Vicki and
Lilena when they're dancing tomy show.
Speaker 2 (42:48):
Yes, yeah For that.
That interview I did thismorning.
One of the things I said.
What I love about Gen X is alsowhat people are critical of Gen
X about, especially when whenthey were in teens and twenties
is they're disaffected.
It's like disinfected youth andso like.
What that means is they are notlooking to anything, any
(43:11):
institutions, to take care ofthem or protect them or save
them.
That leads to, like you know,incredible independence.
I mean, like this is a latchkeygeneration.
The visual of Vicki usingtoilet paper as the, as the
coffee filter it was Laneyactually, but yeah, that was
Laney.
Oh gosh, For some reason in myhead it was Vicki.
(43:33):
Well, in any case, that visualhas stuck with me because it was
just like oh, you find a way,you find a way to make it work.
Same with her gas stationscheme Like I really don't think
that that was okay what she wasdoing, but she was providing a
service, Like she wasn't justtaking the money, she was
(43:54):
pumping gas for people.
Speaker 1 (43:56):
Yeah, she didn't steal from anybody except her
dad, which wasn't wasn't exactly, I mean, like moment when he's
like sorry sunshine, you'regoing to have to figure out your
way out of this, it really yeah.
Because she really.
He implies that she's somehowlazy.
Yes, and she has been.
(44:17):
I mean, it was maybe not thewisest thing to burn the bridge
with good morning grants beforeshe had something else lined up.
She could have lined somethingelse up and then burn the bridge
.
But whatever she doeseventually sit on her couch and
talk to the 1,900 psychic linefor hours and hours and hours.
But that's after both of herparents turn her down for loans
(44:40):
and her dad.
They make it clear dad's gotplenty of money.
It's not that he doesn't haveit.
He's unwilling to help.
He thinks that she needs tolearn a lesson or something.
He's trying to teach her alesson and we know that like she
doesn't actually need thatlesson.
Like this kid cause she is akid is really hardworking and
trying really, really hard,maybe takes herself a little too
(45:04):
seriously, but you know we alldid when we were 23.
Yeah, yeah, sort of goes withthe territory of being 23.
Speaker 2 (45:12):
So yeah, it's interesting just thinking about
our Charlie and the ChocolateFactory, where Willy Wonka,
where Charlie is seen to be purepart because he gives the
everlasting gov stopper back andlike that's what I am bribed
and I very much like I'm a blackand white thinker and you know
I'm a rule follower so like evenwatching it it made me
(45:35):
uncomfortable that she did thatto her dad's money, but at the
same time I was also just likeman, that guy sucks, and like I
admired the hustle, I admiredthe creativity of it Because, in
addition, like that's, sincethey were doing their grocery
shopping at the gas stationbecause she had the gas card, so
like I admired the creativityof that because that was not
(45:56):
what her dad intended it to do,that was, she was being a
subversive bitch.
For those who don't know, thegreatest compliment Tracy ever
gave me was telling me I was asubversive bitch.
Speaker 1 (46:09):
She wants it on her gravestone.
I do, I do.
Speaker 2 (46:14):
I'm notorious EGB subversive bitch, so like I
really admire that, I alsoconsidering that level of self
actualization, like creativity,DIY, like the like.
All right, I'm counting onmyself.
I also comprehend not trustingMichael's offer.
(46:35):
Yeah, In that I would have madethe exact same decision at 23.
Yeah, probably Even withouthaving seen this movie or you
know whatever.
But just like I'm sorry, youwant to do what now?
With how much money?
That can't be right.
Speaker 1 (46:54):
What's the catch?
Okay, One final tidbit and thenI'm going to.
I'm going to try and wrap us up.
So the other thing that I thinkis really interesting within
the context of the conversationabout the difference between
selling out and artistic visionreality bites doesn't mean what
we think.
It means Like we all think.
It means reality sucks.
That's not what she meant.
(47:14):
That was the time of when wewere first starting to talk
about sound bites.
She meant bite sized pieces ofreality.
Your face, you should closeyour mouth.
You're going to catch someflies.
I read it this morning.
You just blew my mind.
Right, I read it this morning inthat Atlantic article that
(47:36):
Childress was like yeah, it was,we had sound bites.
Was it like a new concept in,you know, in the early nineties?
And that's what I was thinkingof.
Like that's what the MTV thingturns it into.
Is like reality, reality yeahas opposed to yeah it's, it's a,
it's a noun, it's not a verb,wow, and reality is an adjective
(48:00):
, anyway.
So that's just a little tidbitactually that I wanted to make
sure that I shared, because Iread it this morning I was like
oh huh, nope, it's become athing.
You know, she was interviewedfor this Atlantic article and
she was saying like yeah, I justsaw it like on CNN, like
reality bites, trump, or realitybites, you know, like it's like
a thing, it's like it's like aTrumpy phrase that we use, but
(48:24):
it's the way she interpreted it.
Speaker 2 (48:25):
Well, it's interesting because that also
changes in some ways the like,the meaning of the movie Cause
if it ends with the idea thatyou sell out or you suffer, like
well, in reality, in reality,in reality, bites yeah.
Speaker 1 (48:39):
No, it was a descriptor of what she was
giving us.
Yeah, wow, okay, so I'm goingto.
We've been talking for a longminute, so I'm going to try and
see if I can like give thehighlights.
So, 1994, reality bites, passesthe back tail test, no problem,
(49:01):
very little racial diversity.
The ultimate duality that weare given, which has multiple
layers, is between selling outand suffering, and suffering is
made to be appealing, becausethat is being true, that's being
pure to who you are and to yourart.
(49:23):
And these 30 years later, Iquestion the dichotomy at all.
I think there are more optionsand also, even within the
dichotomy, I question whether ornot suffering is actually the
right choice.
Speaker 2 (49:38):
It.
Also, it makes a suggestionthat the artist is solitary
because, like then, editingwould be selling out, like the
story told about ElizabethGilbert, like the idea that,
like you, have one singularvision and know how dare anyone
question it, which is verydamaging.
It's a very damaging view ofart.
Speaker 1 (50:00):
Right, it leads to within the movie, and I think
you know the ripple effect itleads us.
Leads to us being dishonestwith ourselves about what we
actually want in a protectivemove.
So we are there.
There's a fear of failure whichactually becomes a fear of
success.
Speaker 2 (50:19):
It's a fear of vulnerability, kind of, yeah, I
think all of us.
Yeah, you have to be vulnerableto fail, and you can't succeed
unless you are vulnerable.
Speaker 1 (50:30):
The relation between the art and romantic
entanglements is.
It's there in this film overand over and over again, but
there's a, there's a romanticmetaphor perhaps between between
those things, and we see it inMichael and Troy, but we also
see it in Vicki's constant sleep, her promosquuity, if I may
(50:55):
call it that, that she doesn'tmake her happy.
It doesn't make her happy atall, and she uses it as a way to
avoid the fear of rejectionthat is driving, driving her.
We also talked at this sort ofmeta level about the.
You know, this film gave us thestrong female protagonists who
I very much identified with,with whom I very much identified
(51:19):
, and that makes sense becauseit came from a female creator
who herself then becomes erasedwhen her creation becomes
beloved by lots of people.
So in that sense, thelampooning of selling out is
sort of accurate, right, becauseshe, once she, sold out, it's
(51:43):
not that she lost her vision,she lost her identity as its
creator, which is like blowingmy mind a little bit.
I blame that on sexism, not onselling out, though.
Speaker 2 (51:56):
No, yeah, that's sexism, yeah.
Speaker 1 (51:59):
Yeah, yeah.
So those are the big piecesthat I hope that we kind of
covered.
Did I miss anything that youwant to make sure that you name?
Speaker 2 (52:07):
One thing we talked about before we started
recording was with the rawfootage, and how a lot of
Lainey's footage that we seedoes not seem that compelling.
And looking back on it andagain, I haven't seen it since I
myself was probably 23, butlooking back on it it really
(52:28):
feels like she thinks she has tobe complete at age 23.
And so and she thinks that herart is at its pinnacle when
she's still very much a zygote,an artistic zygote.
And so there's some of thefootage.
There's two scenes inparticular that we talk about.
(52:49):
There's one where Vicki isgetting her test results for an
AIDS test and it's devastating,it's just devastating.
And, if I recall correctly,isn't Vicki like and she doesn't
get a negative test result, shedoes, with the waiting.
I mean, yeah, I mean shedoesn't get a positive test
(53:11):
result, yeah, she's gonnapositive, but the waiting is the
devastating part.
Speaker 1 (53:16):
Yeah, at one point she says here I am maybe
probably dying of AIDS likeshe's.
She's terrified, she'sterrified.
Speaker 2 (53:23):
Yeah, terrified and like that's.
When I say that, seen asdevastating, is like I just
feeling for that character and,layered on top of the, the way
that she conducts her romanticlife, being because of a fear of
rejection, and like it's justit's and it's, it's amazing it's
.
It's fantastic filmmaking andfantastic Documentary making in
(53:48):
context.
The other one is Sammy isthinking of coming out to his
parents and and so he talks toVicki as if Vicki is his mother,
like they do a role play of howit would go, and that is
another Lovely scene where Vickiputs on this funny, like
midwestern, like oh, my child, Ilove you, I will join P flag,
(54:11):
and what really stuck with meabout that scene is that it's
showing his friends aresupporting him by doing this,
like this role play, becauseit's got to be terrifying to do
that, especially in the earlymid 90s, but also goofing around
a little bit.
So, like it's just it's, it'ssuch good friendship right there
(54:34):
it does speak to Laney's skillas a Documentarian and tells me
that, like you know, 15 years,20 years, in the future, she'd
be making amazing films, but sheneeds to cook a little longer.
Speaker 1 (54:47):
Yeah, maybe.
I mean I think it really all ofthe friendships in this, the
friendships in this film feelreal.
Yeah, they fight and they makeup and they they feel real and
genuine and like authenticConnections.
I say maybe about Laney'sfilmmaking.
Roger Ebert in hiscontemporaneous review was like
(55:08):
she's not a good filmmaker.
The composition is bad, thepacing is wrong, like he really
didn't like.
Yeah, and he would know, yeah,and so that's why I hesitate,
like I don't watch nearly asmany films as Roger Ebert did.
We also have very differentperspectives about what we care
about, so there's that, but I dothink there's.
Well, it just took itself tooseriously, I think which again
(55:31):
23.
So yeah yeah, okay.
So Wow, we've been talking along time.
Speaker 2 (55:38):
So next time now?
I know we usually go back andforth, but I'm I'm going to be
doing a bonus episode about backto the future, so you are
coming back for our next regularepisode.
What do you have for me nexttime?
Speaker 1 (55:52):
Yeah, I am going to bring you Monty Python and the
Holy Grail.
Speaker 2 (55:58):
Oh, Like the night to think.
Speaker 1 (56:02):
Yeah, you have reader comments for us today, do?
I do have a couple of readercomments.
Speaker 2 (56:06):
Here we go.
So got a couple of commentsabout Willy Wonka and the
chocolate factory from Kiara.
She said I think TimothyChalamet's Wonka had the same
joy and energy of Wilders and Ithink it's an instant classic
addition to the story.
So, and she, she recommendedthat we go see it.
So I was like, okay, that makesme feel good.
Just his Johnny Depp's Wonkaleft such a bad taste in my
(56:29):
mouth, although I was thinkingabout the fact that, like, if
you think about it in some ways,johnny Depp was really just
showing what Was screwed upabout this character.
It's just like is that why wego to the movies?
I don't know.
And Then David said, inresponse to my saying come with
me and you'll be in a world ofcapitalistic monopolies
(56:51):
Regulated monopolies, is whathow I put it.
So I posted that and David saidaren't we already?
I'm like yeah, I break down thefive.
And then I have one more fromLisa on Clue, who said that to
this day, whenever my familymembers are angry, we yell
flames.
Side of my face, madeline Connstyle.
Speaker 1 (57:13):
Because iconic.
Well, listener, if you havedeep thoughts From our deep
thoughts, we would love to hearthem for reals.
So you can Click the link inour show notes to go to our
listener forum to share themwith us.
Email us at guygirlsmedia atGmail dot com, or find us on
(57:37):
socials and let us know there.
Speaker 2 (57:39):
Mm-hmm, we'd love to hear from you.
Speaker 1 (57:41):
All right until next time.
Till next time, do you likestickers?
Sure, we all do.
If you head over toguygirlsmediacom, slash, sign up
and share your address with us.
We'll send you a sticker.
It really is that easy, butdon't wait, there's a limited
quantity.
Thanks for listening.
Our theme music is professorumlaut by Kevin McLeod from
(58:04):
incompetechcom.
Find full music credits in theshow notes.
Until next time, remember, popculture is still culture, and
shouldn't you know what's inyour head?
This is Tracy Guy-Dekker and you're listening
to Deep Thoughts about StupidShit, because pop culture is
still culture, and shouldn't youknow what's in your head?
Today I'll be sharing my deepthoughts about the 1994 film
Reality Bites with my sister,emily Guy Berkin, and with you.
Let's dive in.
Have you ever had something youlove dismissed because it's
(00:22):
just pop culture, what othersmight deem stupid shit?
You know matters, you know it'sworth talking and thinking
about, and so do we.
So come over, think with us aswe delve into our deep thoughts
about stupid shit.
Okay, so I know you rememberthe movie, because we just did a
little huddle up right beforewe hit record.
(00:43):
But remind me what you rememberabout this movie and how you
first encountered it.
If you remember, I think you do.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
So I believe the first time I saw it was when Ed
surgery on my feet when I was 15.
I'm one foot than the other.
It was minor skin surgery butstill I couldn't walk, so I
would have been in 1994.
It was like sometime aroundAugust 1994 and I remember that
you got this movie and a coupleothers from Blunt Buster and we
(01:15):
set up the TV and VCR in mybedroom and we laid on my bed
and watched it together and, asI recall, you and I both liked
it so much we watched it morethan once during that recovery
period.
So I had a similar relationshipto this movie as I did to the
breakfast club, in that it wasabout people who were a little
(01:36):
bit older than I was and I tookit to mean that this is what I
had to look forward to.
So that's what I thought beingin my 20s was going to be like.
When I was 15.
Looking forward, I rememberthat I loved the love story and
in my early 20s, sometime in theearly 2000s, around 2001-2002,
(01:59):
friend of mine said, yeah, thatmovie is proof that the asshole
always gets the girl and I waslike what are you talking about?
My friend, having said that,made me kind of reevaluate the
love triangle in the story.
I don't know if that's when Ifirst started, but like it got
(02:20):
me thinking about how oftenstories present the brooding
jerk as like the romantic heroand how much I have been like
funnelled into believing thatthat's, you know, I can make him
happy.
So that was something that'skind of left a bad taste in my
(02:41):
mouth and I don't think that Ihave revisited the film since
then.
So that would have been about20 years ago or a little more.
And then there are a couple ofthings that stand out from that
film, most obviously theMascherona scene.
It just feels it's iconic.
It's an iconic scene and itfeels very Gen X in a way that
(03:04):
makes me feel like I was born in1979, so I'm very much on the
cusp of Gen X and Millennials.
I self-identify as Gen X andthat scene is one of the things
that makes me like proud to be aGen Xer, even though I have a
relatively loose claim on it.
(03:25):
So tell us, why are we talkingabout this?
Speaker 1 (03:28):
film today.
Yeah, so if we watched it inAugust of 94, that was like
right before I went away tocollege.
And this film, it's funny.
I agree with you that this sitsin a similar spot to the
Breakfast Club, which is thelast movie that I brought to you
, and I think that's probablywhy I put them in succession
like this, in my own kind ofexploration.
And there's nine years betweenthem, and so I was closer to the
(03:53):
age of reality bites than I wasto the kids in Breakfast Club,
at least when it was releasedinitially.
But I think, like you, theywere sort of more like.
This is what it's going to belike and very close for me for
Reality Bites, and more so thanthe Breakfast Club.
Like in the Breakfast Club wetalked about the fact that I
didn't, there wasn't a characterwith whom I was like that's me.
(04:18):
I so completely identified withWinona Ryder's Lilaina that in
my mind, like Winona Ryder, wasmy Hollywood persona you know
she was like if I was ever, ifthere was ever a movie in my
life, winona was gonna play me.
You know, like she was thepolished, prettier version of me
(04:40):
, and so there was thisself-identification that
actually became completelydivorced from the movie itself
in some ways well, notcompletely, because I still
understood that Reality Biteslike but it was what it got
built up to in my brain.
Now that I've just rewatched itin order to prepare to talk to
you, they weren't the same.
They weren't like in the 30years or however like it
(05:04):
definitely like evolved in mybrain.
I don't even know if Iremembered the character's name
prior to rewatching it.
I didn't, but there wassomething like deeply
self-identified in this movie.
So what we're missing inBreakfast Club was the
overachieving kind of nerdy, ifyou will.
(05:26):
Female character Lilaina is thevaledictorian of her graduating
class in college and at onepoint when she's feeling down on
herself because she thought shewas gonna do something by the
time she was 23 which, lookingback and I'm like, oh honey, but
(05:46):
that was real.
Speaker 2 (05:48):
Yes, I felt that at 15.
That was real and yeah yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:56):
So that's why I wanted to talk about it.
That was this like formativecharacter that I really
self-identified with and aspiredto in a certain way.
And so, you know, thinkingabout our project, I wanted to
go back and look at like, whatare those building blocks that I
was putting into my aspirations, that I was seeing myself
(06:17):
resonance in?
And your friend was right likeit's, I don't love it.
Looking back on it, I do notlove it.
You know, when I'm a writeradorable, in fact, I was I felt
validated.
I was in the middle of the filmand my spouse walked in and was
like, oh, she's like a youngerversion of you, and I was like,
(06:38):
oh yeah, I think so too, I'mgonna urge you for this very
moment.
Right, but Lilaina makes somereally poor choices and she's
just, completely predictably, 47year old.
Tracy does not think that 23year old Lilaina has things
together as much as 18 year oldTracy thought Lilaina had things
(07:01):
together.
Yeah, yeah, so and that's youknow, that's okay, but I'd like
to, I'd like to dig into it alittle bit.
So there there are some surfacelevel things that in the
intervening 30 years, like justkind of are unpleasant on screen
, that I'll name.
And then there are two kind ofbig things that I want to unpack
(07:23):
in the movie, and that's sortof the idea of selling out
versus like being pure to yourartistic vision and the love
triangle that you identifiedbetween Ethan Hawkes-Troy and
Ben Stiller's Michael.
And then, in a meta level, Iwant to talk about the erasure
of female creators a little bit,especially as it comes to
(07:44):
actually that, my sharonasine.
So those are the things thatI'm I'm gonna get into, but
first let me give a quick recapof the plot such as it is.
It's not huge, like not a lothappens.
It's kind of a slice of lifesort of a little bit.
Speaker 2 (07:59):
I mean, there is some plot.
Speaker 1 (08:01):
But so we meet Lilaina and her friends.
Lilaina what on a writer'scharacter is an aspiring
documentarian and so the veryfirst thing we see, we see we
are very clearly shown that thisis a videotape.
Like we see the word vcr andit's kind of grainy and it's her
giving the valedictorian speech.
She is missing a card and solike the punchline is missing
(08:24):
from her speech and then we seethem, kind of her and her
friends, kind of goofing off.
So it's when on a writer'sLilaina.
Then there's Janine Graffalo'sVicki, ethan Hawkes-Troy and
then Steve Zahn's Sammy.
Those are sort of the corefriend group that we follow,
partially from behind Lainey'scamera and partially sort of in
(08:45):
the like third person omniscientmovie.
So we immediately learn thatLainey's parents are divorced
and there's a lot of tension.
They're all out to dinner.
Ethan Hawkes-Troy is a bestfriend but not a boyfriend.
Lainey works for a morning showwith the guy that played the dad
(09:06):
from Frasier as the the morningshow host.
He's a dick but he plays thislike very charming, like guy on
on the show.
It's Lainey's job to write hisscript on little no cards, kind
of like the ones she used on herspeech.
And there's some tension therebecause like he thinks she
should be like also making hiscoffee, which she doesn't want
(09:29):
to do.
So we get a little bit of likediscomfort there.
Vicki works at the gap, troyworks in a little like newsstand
.
Troy immediately gets fired forstealing his knickers and moves
in with Lainey and Vicki.
Lilaina and Vicki are out inthe car and had this little meet
cute with Ben Stiller's Michael, because Lilaina throws a lit
(09:52):
cigarette out the window, itlands in his convertible and
sort of starts a fire likesmoking on something that's on
his passenger seat and he endsup hitting her car, which was a
hand me down from her stepmother.
Speaker 2 (10:04):
Oh, and her father gives her a gas credit card in
that first scene, doesn't?
Speaker 1 (10:08):
he.
Speaker 2 (10:08):
Yes, he does, so that her gas is covered for the for
the year.
Speaker 1 (10:13):
A year?
Yes, exactly.
So we meet Michael.
He's about their age, a littlebit older, but not much, just
still mid 20s, and he has kindof a high power job at an MTV
like network called In your Face, and we are shown pretty early
how ridiculous this network iswhen there's a, an influencer
(10:35):
personality who Lainey'swatching it on the TV and she's
doing an ad for this likedesigner scarf that has the
colors of the bloods and thecrypts and it's only $75.
I mean, it's just absolutelyridiculous and it's so memorable
that part okay, it's like 30seconds.
(10:57):
The point was to sort of lampoonthis this network, this MTV
style network.
Okay, lainey's immediate boss wedon't actually get to know this
person, but he shows the hostof the show, lainey's
documentary footage and says Ithink she's really talented.
Lainey's out, you know, justoutside listening, so she's
(11:20):
eavesdropping on this.
The immediate boss is like Ithink she's really talented, I'd
love to show this.
And the guy's like no, I don'tknow, we only do sunny stuff,
not this broody shit.
And I don't, I would.
I want you to get rid of her.
I don't like her pointy face.
And he insults her Completedick, yeah, yeah, she can.
She can hear him.
He doesn't know she can hearhim.
(11:40):
So she ends up sort ofretaliating by putting since she
writes his cards for his script, he doesn't review them in
advance.
So he goes on camera and saysI've always liked very, very
young girls, cause that's whatit says on his card.
And then he's like uh, and heflips to the next card and he's
(12:00):
he's talking to an author atthis point and he says being a
total prick.
So so Lainey loses her job.
Yeah, as she should.
So she has a little bit of acrisis.
Ethan Hawks, troy, kind oftries to comfort her cause.
He's been fired from like 13jobs or something.
(12:23):
And this is all we need, lainey, a couple of cigarettes, good
conversation in you and me.
And then he tries to kiss her.
She's like, no, I can't do thiscause I can't lose you.
And then he gives her the coldshoulder.
Meanwhile, uh, she starts datingMichael Ben Stiller's Michael
and Michael is a little awkward,a little silly, but like a nice
(12:45):
guy they have a nice timetogether.
He clearly really really likesher.
We get a line in their firstdate that at the time in 94, I
thought was hilarious.
It's not that funny now.
But they're talking and he sayssomething like you're really
beautiful.
Like really, really, I can'tbelieve how, like some, like
(13:05):
he's falling over himself abouthow good looking she is and
she's uncomfortable.
So, to change the subject,she's like are you religious or
at all?
Which feels like a really weirdnon sequitur.
Looking back on it, he says, ohwell, I guess you could say I'm
a non practicing Jew.
And she says, well, I guess youcould say I'm a non practicing
virgin.
And then they just look at eachother and like uncomfortable
(13:27):
awkwardness.
So the rivalry between Michael,who is emotionally available,
has a steady job, doesn't mindtelling her that he.
I mean, at one point heactually says he loves her and
then it's like oh wait, whatYou're amazing.
Like, in the same breath hesays I think you're amazing and
(13:49):
I love you, whereas Ethan Hawks,troy, like, at one point is
like I'm totally in love withyou.
That's what you want me to say,isn't it?
Don't flatter yourself Like.
He's so mean to her over andover and over again.
He's so mean to her.
The real day new mall if thereis one is that Michael shows
(14:13):
Lainey's videos to his bossesand they like it, they want to
buy it.
And she was just about to sellplasma.
You know, like she's like hasno money.
In fact, the gas card comesback because she can't pay rent.
And so she her dad had givenher a gas card.
She tries, she tries to get ajob.
Lots of different places istold she's over qualified, she
(14:35):
can't find a job.
She even tries to get a job atlike Wiener Schnitzel, like a
drive through hot dog place, andthe, you know, the manager is
like there's a reason I've beenhere six months.
She can't get a job at a hotdog place and she asks each of
her parents for a loan.
Both of them deny her.
So she starts using the gascard creatively and like paying
(15:01):
for people's gas and they giveher cash.
And then Michael says he cansell her video and or her movie
to his people and they're and tomake a show out of it.
And she's super excited andit's amazing.
And then they go to the movie.
There's some, you know,growling at one another between
Ethan Hawke and Ben Stiller, butthey go to the premiere.
He says I haven't seen it yet,she hasn't seen their edits.
(15:23):
And they show the edits andwe've been watching the
documentary footage throughoutand it's like grainy and not
particularly well composed andbrooding and very serious and it
has been spliced up MPV stylewith lots of animation and like
quick cuts and I kind ofremember there being like sound
(15:45):
effects, to like spying typesound effects.
Speaker 2 (15:48):
Am I misremembering that or?
Speaker 1 (15:49):
There was a soundtrack, I don't.
Oh, okay, okay.
And there was product placement.
So like at one point from theraw footage they were like pizza
, pizza is a good idea.
And so it's like all of themlike quick cuts, pizza, pizza,
pizza.
And then you see, like pizzahut and it's like animated with,
like not drawn but like cutouts, and yeah, okay, yeah.
(16:13):
And she is just devastated bythis, like this is not mine, and
runs away.
And Michael is like I didn'tknow they would do it, I didn't
see it, I'll make them take thepizza bit out.
And we're meant to think thathe just doesn't get it Right.
So she's really devastated bythis.
(16:36):
Just having a moment when Troycomes upon, her kind of
wallowing.
And that's when she says Ireally thought that I was going
to do something by the time Iwas 23.
They finally do get together.
They have sex.
The sex scene is like realclose up of their faces and sort
of like we could have beendoing this all along, like
(16:58):
you're my best friend.
But then he bails super earlyin the morning, like just runs
away.
So the next day he's in a bandcalled hey, that's my bike.
Oh, that's right, yes.
So the next day or a couple ofdays later they're at the bar
where hey, that's my bikeperforms and Michael shows up
(17:20):
and he has two tickets, twoplane tickets to go to New York.
He wants her to go with him topitch her show the way she wants
to do it to his bosses.
And Troy is, you know, growlingand jealous and Lainey kind of
pulls Troy aside and is likewhat is happening?
(17:40):
You ran away.
And he is like you know,sometimes I'm going to do things
that you don't like and that'sjust how it is.
And she runs away from both ofthem.
They have a moment in thestreets where Ben Stiller says
you know, you're like the courtjuster, and you know Hamlet
finds his skull and he diedalone and like yeah, people say
(18:03):
yeah, he was funny.
But Troy says everybody diesalone.
Michael says if you reallybelieve that, who are you
looking for out here?
Michael throws down the planetickets into the street and then
the next scene.
We see Troy getting on a plane,and so initially you're almost
thinking like he took thetickets off the street.
(18:24):
But no, it turns out his fatherdied and he went home, to
wherever home is, for thefuneral.
He was fairly estranged fromhis dad and Lilaina is just
missing him.
He's just absolutely pining forhim and is just about to run
out of her apartment to go lookfor him.
She's Sammy, tells her that hewent home, so she's just about
(18:47):
to try and like I don't know butgo look for him and a cab pulls
up and drops him off and they,you know, apologize and the
movie ends with them in eachother's arms.
So that's the basic plot.
So the quick things Bechteltest, yes, flying colors.
Lilaina and Vicky talk aboutlots of stuff, not just boys
(19:11):
race.
I counted two black actors inthe whole movie.
There's the author that thedick boss is talking to when he
gets the cards, and then whenLani is trying to get a job
she's trying, she starts withradio and the would be boss is a
black man who says I trust mygut and my gut says this is a
(19:33):
bad fit and that's it.
And there's also you sort ofsurface level.
Like the characters, like allof them smoke like chimneys,
which is really oh gosh, I hadno memory of that.
Yeah, Like there's, Lani alwayshas a cigarette in her hand.
Speaker 2 (19:52):
Okay, I kind of remembered that Ethan Hawks
smoked, but I did not remember.
Speaker 1 (19:56):
Yeah, no, that's how she meets Michael, because she
like flicks her.
Speaker 2 (20:00):
Oh, that's right, that's right.
That's right, that's right,okay yeah.
And then he hit her car.
That's all I remember about it.
Yeah, okay yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:12):
And in fact they show the passage of time with the
cigarette butts building up inthe ashtray at one point Okay.
Okay.
Which is like really, it's justwhat's the word?
It's surprising because TVtoday you really don't see
cigarettes at all, yeah, ormovies, or very rarely.
Speaker 2 (20:30):
Unless they're set in a specific time period.
But even then, like I was, Ijust recently watched Chinatown
again with my husband and I wasthinking about how many
cigarettes there are, which isperfectly in keeping with the
time that it's set in.
But it also felt like adifferent choice, like they
(20:52):
would have had cigarettes oncein a while if they made it now.
Speaker 1 (20:56):
Yeah, yeah.
So anyway, go ahead.
And then the other thing thatstood out to me in this rewatch
is the frequency and casual nesswith which they use the ableist
R word.
It just shows up again andagain.
So those are a couple of likesurface things that you know
kind of well that I noticed,just easy to check off quickly.
(21:19):
Also, queer representation.
So we have Scammy, who's like apart of the friend group but not
like he is and isn't, and thereis actually some not
insignificant amount of screentime devoted to his coming out
or why he's still in the closetand those sorts of things about
his relationship with his family, which is which is actually for
(21:39):
30 years ago.
I think was well done.
The two big things that I wantto talk about are related.
So let's talk about selling out.
First, at one point when she'sshe's trying to Lane, is trying
to get a job at a newspaperbecause she's like you know, I'm
a journalist, so like, and thewoman who is her would be boss
(22:00):
is like I just don't see it.
And then the woman she saysdefine irony and Lainey can't.
And then she comes to a dinerand finds Troy, and he does
without hesitation, which isanother way that the movie
makers prove to us that he'ssmart.
But there's something like I'mnot sure irony is the right word
(22:23):
.
It's almost like hypocrisy aboutthis movie that there's some
weird tension.
For me it's all aboutlampooning sellouts from a major
motion picture, you know, froma major motion picture from a
(22:44):
major house.
Like it's not like this was in.
It was like they wanted it tofeel indie but it wasn't.
And there's something likealive in that tension that feels
actually like the tension ofGen X.
There are folks, like you,identify this as a Gen X movie.
I think you're right.
Like this is a solidly Gen X.
(23:07):
It could only have been writtenby a Gen Xer you know.
Speaker 2 (23:11):
So just this morning I was asked to answer some
questions for an article or forsomebody coming out, because I
wrote an article about Gen Xretirements, and so they reached
out to me said, will you answersome questions?
And so I did a little bit ofresearch and like when you type
in Gen X retirements, one of thearticles that I pulled up for
(23:32):
research, the image they had wasfrom reality bites.
Speaker 1 (23:35):
Yeah, so Well.
I was reading this morning likeI don't even think we had that
term yet when this movie wasmade.
They were still calling us babybusters because there were so
few of us.
Speaker 2 (23:47):
Oh gosh, I had forgotten that, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (23:52):
So there's something like complicated and it feels
potentially toxic when I lookback on it this lampooning of
selling out being sold to me inthis major motion picture that
had a lot of product placement,which maybe was ironic.
Maybe, I don't.
(24:15):
I mean, it was certainly meantto be.
It was very obvious within theMTV version or the In your Face
version of Leni's video, butit's throughout the movie Like
she talks about how important abig gulp is to her and Troy says
like quarter pounders aresomething worth getting up for.
(24:36):
Yeah.
Yeah, there's McDonald's,there's Diet Coke, there's a lot
of like product placement inthis movie and it just feels
potentially toxic or easilytwisted in a way that actually
feels very similar to and isrelated, it's resonant, with the
(24:57):
so-called choice between thesetwo men.
So Michael represents sellingout and Troy represents saying
true to your so-called artisticvision and the filmmakers I mean
you and I both, and I think, alot of us watching we got the
message.
Ethan Hawke was the guy, he wasthe one she chose correctly,
(25:22):
but did she?
I mean this dude was mean to her, which he suggests is him being
true to his artistic vision,like him being true to himself,
somehow being mean to her.
Unpredictable, unreliable, nojob, no ambition or afraid of
(25:42):
ambition, like.
There is this judgment ofmaterialism which gets completed
with a judgment of anythingother than sitting around and
brooding.
And what's interesting withinthe universe of the movie is
Michael knows it, he's trying toconvince Lainey that he's not
(26:05):
materialistic, he doesn't carethat much about stuff and she's
like look at you, give yourdesigner suits or whatever.
Speaker 2 (26:16):
Couple of things that I think are interesting here.
One is I feel like Gen X as ageneration, as a group of people
, is uniquely concerned aboutselling out, like I think that
happened in earlier generations.
I think I'm sure it's happenedin later generations.
I have a theory as to why thatis, and it's the 80s being Gen
(26:38):
X's formative years, whereeverything was slick and money
and sell, sell, sell and createas good and all of that, and so
that's like the rejection ofthat culture.
So I think that that's reallyinteresting.
The issue is that there is noactual alternative.
(26:58):
It's you either sell out or youstay true to your artistic
vision.
But what does that mean?
How do you get your art to thepeople who will appreciate it?
Because there is no alternativeoffered, and that is what I
(27:20):
mean.
That's the way madness lies.
And then that also means youget people who just sit around
brooding without actuallywriting something or creating
something or doing anything.
Speaker 1 (27:29):
I think I'd push it even further.
The alternative that's offeredis suffering, and if you're not
suffering you're somehow notThen you're selling out.
It's suffer or sell out, andwhat a shitty choice.
And that is the choice thatLaney's given suffer with this
good-looking friend who treatsyou badly.
Yeah, or sell out with this guywho actually cares about you,
(27:55):
can say he cares about you, hasmoney, has a job, is reliable,
and we're told clearly that thesuffering is the right choice.
Speaker 2 (28:06):
Yeah, you know something else that just came up
to me that I mentioned lastnight when we were talking.
For all of my life I've hadthis sense there's a ticking
clock that I have to do orcreate something remarkable when
I am young and until recently Ihad never really wrestled with
(28:30):
it or examined it.
It just was.
And I realized that thatticking clock was about my own
attractiveness and my sense thatI can only do or create
something remarkable while I amconventionally attractive.
And to further, because thepeople who decide that something
(28:51):
remarkable has been done aremen and wow, that's F-dub.
I mean, I'm really not OK withthat being in my head.
However, Laney saying I thoughtI'd be somebody by the time I
was 23 fits in with that.
That's the part of the reasonwhy that resonated with me is
because, even as a 15-year-oldwatching this movie, I felt that
(29:13):
ticking clock because I need todo this when I am some pretty
young thing.
And having that in my head andI'm sure I'm not the only one
who has that in my head, I haveit in that very specific way,
but I didn't know it was thereuntil I really wrestled with it
(29:33):
makes Michael's offer at the endfeel a little different in that
Like, just objectively, if wetake how women are socialized in
20th century and now 21stcentury America out of it.
If this is just aliens,obviously Michael's the right
(29:56):
choice In this context.
I know I would feel awkwardabout the fact that I got my big
break because I was sleepingwith a guy.
There's so much tangled up inthere, and then it's also the
fact that I can say that I feelweird about it.
(30:17):
But the thing is that's howthings work.
You know people.
You know people who know peopleand they're like hey, I can get
this to my boss and that's howit works.
And she was doing that with herboss at the morning show.
So I don't know if Laney wouldhave a problem with it.
I would, and all of that.
I wonder how much art we'vemissed out on because people
(30:41):
aren't willing to sell out.
Like my writing career.
When I first started it, Istarted freelancing just to get
some money coming in and I justhappened to get a money blog, as
one of my first clients wholiked my work passed my name
along to friends.
You know, eight months later,10 months later, I'm getting to
be known as a money writer andwas invited to a financial media
(31:06):
conference and I almost didn'tgo Because I was like, well, I
don't want to be a money.
I mean I'm supposed to be anovelist, like I'm supposed to
be a real writer.
And about six weeks before theconference I woke up in the
middle of the night going likepeople want to pay me to write.
What is wrong with me?
Like why am I saying no to this?
And like, what vision am Ihewing to that I can do more
(31:30):
easily by not embracing thisopportunity.
And so that's this really weirdpush pull.
That, I think, is not.
It's not just this movie.
This movie describes it, but Ithink that that is mean.
What was the name of the author?
Helen Children Children.
She experienced it.
I mean, this is something thatis common in our generation.
(31:52):
But, wow, I feel like there's alot that we've missed out on
because people are like, well,no, no, no, that's not pure
enough, that would be sellingout.
Speaker 1 (32:01):
It's interesting that irony.
So just define irony?
She can't, but she knows itwhen she sees it she has to try
to define it.
He says it's when the truemeaning is the exact opposite of
the literal meaning.
I think that actually was a bigold clue.
That's a piece of exposition, Ithink, in the In Childress's
script.
Here that is related to whatyou're talking about, because so
(32:24):
, vicky, we see one of our firstintroductions to Vicky is a man
sneaking out of her bedroomtrying not to wake her.
She was pretending to be asleep.
The moment he's gone, she pullsout this little notebook and
she writes down the date and hisname with a question mark.
She's not 100% sure sheremembers it.
He's number 66.
(32:47):
In this book of lovers, yeah,yeah.
And there's a conversation thatshe and Leni have later where
you know she says they run awayimmediately, like I'm not the
kind of girl who has arelationship.
(33:08):
That's, those aren't her words,I'm paraphrasing, you know.
And Leni's like what are youtalking about?
You're out the door before heeven takes the condom off.
And it's made clear in thatmoment, like she says something,
like I'm just doing it beforethey do it to me.
You know so the irony of youknow this casual sex, and that
(33:28):
that's what she wants is casualsex.
What she really wants isrelationship.
But then there's this fear.
It's this fear, this resistanceto selling out, is like a fear
of success, and it's.
I think that part of what isuncomfortable to me watching
this movie now, 30 years later,is that I'm like, oh, that fear
(33:53):
of success is so old I don'teven recognize it and I put the
clothes on it of I'm not sellingout, I'm not gonna sell out,
you know, and that's just like Imean.
Speaker 2 (34:12):
I guess I'm glad I know it's in my head, but you
know this, and I do think it'stelling that Helen Childress,
you know, was herself afilmmaker and she based this.
Speaker 1 (34:24):
This is very autobiographical.
Yes, yes, In fact there'sactually a man named Troy Dyer
who sued her for using his tape.
Apparently he's more like theMichael character, but it's
settled out of court.
Speaker 2 (34:37):
I find it telling because, like you know, a lot of
this is about the pain of beinga creator, because what you're
able to actually put on the pageor on the screen never fits
what's in your head.
So there's already this likepain of selling out just in the
act of creation.
And I can recall I think it wassomething Elizabeth Gilbert was
(35:00):
writing about, where she wastalking about how she written
this piece short fiction and itwas not long, it was like 5,000
words and it was somethingprestigious said we'll take it,
but you need to get it down tolike under 2,000 words, which is
like so the bulk of the story.
And she was just like I'venever treated my story so
(35:22):
roughly, and she was mentioningthis to I think it was a
boyfriend of hers or somethingwho was like oh, I would never
do that, I would never Like,because Elizabeth Gilbert is not
above petty, she's like, andhe's never been published.
But that is like this film haslike made that, that fear of
(35:46):
creation, fear of success,because it's not the ideal that
we want.
It's made it real in a way thatresonates with people who
aren't creators as well.
Yeah, in some ways, that's ashame.
In some ways I think that'sjust, that's partially like,
that's human nature and then insome ways I think, like I said,
I think Gen X was primed toreject the values and the
(36:10):
materialism and the expectationsof the previous generation,
particularly because it livedthrough the 80s.
Speaker 1 (36:17):
Yeah, yeah, speaking of creators and that gap between
what's in your head and whatgets put on the screen,
something really interestinghappened with this movie that
you named that my Charona scene.
So there's a scene there in thegas station.
My Charona comes on the radio.
Vicky says oh, turn it up, youwon't be sorry, the gas station
is tender.
Turns it up.
It's my Charona and Vicky andLilaina and Sammy all dance and
(36:42):
Troy just smirks and then youkind of the camera cuts to
outside.
You can still hear the musicand it's like this beautiful
sunset and they're dancing.
It's a really visuallybeautiful scene.
And looking back on it, lookingback on the movie, the 25th
anniversary like people weretalking about that and I don't
(37:02):
remember who, but one of theproducers was like, yeah, that
was really Ben's vision.
Ben Stiller was the director ofthis movie, in addition to
playing Michael, and Childresswrote that scene exactly.
In the script it says you know,and then pan out and the
whatever.
And I read this, and there's anarticle in the Atlantic about
(37:26):
the movie that I'll link to inthe show notes, although it is
behind the paywall, so sorry,but the author points out that
this female creator who wrote astory about her life, had to
prove that she wrote it, that itwas hers.
She had to prove that it washers.
You know, because people aregiving Ben Stiller the credit
(37:47):
for this scene, which is sort ofthe iconic scene of this or an
iconic scene from this iconicGen X movie.
The Childress had to be like no, I wrote that, that was mine.
Like she had to pull up thescript book to be like that's
not Ben, that's me, and there'ssomething like so quintessential
(38:13):
of that need to reclaim.
I mean, this is anautobiographical film that she
had to prove was hers, at leastfor the moment that captured
culture's imagination andthere's something like that just
(38:34):
further layers the problematicsand the awkwardness and the
pressure on this notion ofselling out and artistic vision
and being true to one's identitywhen you layer that piece of it
onto it as well, Right, andit's like there's all these
(38:56):
layers of meta, right Cause oneof the things that Lainey says
that she wants, that she's doing, that she wants to do, is she's
telling these stories about herfriends who are trying to find
their own identities withoutreal role models or heroes.
Like that's what she says aboutherself and her friends.
And so this notion of liketrying to find your identity and
then also needing to defend it,being afraid of it.
(39:19):
Being afraid of it also likeneeding to pay rent.
Speaker 2 (39:25):
You know it's interesting.
The erasure of Helen Childressis like creation of that iconic
moment, which is horrifying.
But I feel like that gets tosomething I mentioned last week,
which is that when it comes tolike iconic women and non-men
(39:48):
creators, we have this tendencyto act like they have no
influences, and then one of theways that we do that is by
erasing the women from the stuffthat they did so like.
Oh yeah, that's Ben's movie.
Now, I probably knew at somepoint that Ben Stiller directed
this.
Like.
It was one of those like.
(40:09):
I read it this morning and Iwasn't surprised it was his
first direct real debut.
And so like I knew it at somepoint, but it's not.
I don't associate Like to me.
This is when I think about it.
It's Winona Ryder and JeanineGarofalo's movie and that's what
I remember from that scene.
That was also.
That's not the first time Iheard my Cherona, but that was
(40:34):
that movie's how I learned toappreciate that song.
But that is like I know.
Sammy is there also dancing,and Troy is there and not
dancing, but in my head what Iremember are the two women
dancing together.
And so like this scene writtenby a woman in a song about a
woman, because Cherona's a realperson with like two iconic Gen
(41:02):
X women actors dancing and theygo yeah, that's Ben, that's.
That's effing infuriating,because one of the reasons why
that scene is remembered and whyit's iconic is because it gave
me the sense that joy is alwaysavailable, even among these
(41:25):
extremely stressful situations.
Speaker 1 (41:27):
Yes, and also there's because of Troy Smirk and the
boomer attendant who actuallydid the turning up of the volume
, who's just like giving themlike this it's.
It's not exactly judgmental,like he's not like, but it is
judgmental.
But you know, sort of what areyou doing as opposed to.
(41:47):
It's one of the kids these days, isn't it?
Yeah, and not, and not a.
Not an anger, I guess, is whatI'm trying to say, but just a
like a lack of understanding.
Yeah, and I think thatsubversion of decorum, as if you
need to have decorum in a foodmart, at a gas station but still
(42:08):
they are in public and then andthey just, you know, break out
dancing.
So joy is always available, evenin sort of stressful times, and
also, like that, the notion ofdecorum in public, if joy is on
the table, it is is rejected,and I and I think that's also a
piece of that that is beautiful.
Speaker 2 (42:29):
Well, and it's the other thing that I appreciate
about it is that it pushes backagainst the choice of the world,
who think that optimism andhope and joy are uncool.
Speaker 1 (42:41):
Yes, Because there is nobody cooler than Vicki and
Lilena when they're dancing tomy show.
Speaker 2 (42:48):
Yes, yeah For that.
That interview I did thismorning.
One of the things I said.
What I love about Gen X is alsowhat people are critical of Gen
X about, especially when whenthey were in teens and twenties
is they're disaffected.
It's like disinfected youth andso like.
What that means is they are notlooking to anything, any
(43:11):
institutions, to take care ofthem or protect them or save
them.
That leads to, like you know,incredible independence.
I mean, like this is a latchkeygeneration.
The visual of Vicki usingtoilet paper as the, as the
coffee filter it was Laneyactually, but yeah, that was
Laney.
Oh gosh, For some reason in myhead it was Vicki.
(43:33):
Well, in any case, that visualhas stuck with me because it was
just like oh, you find a way,you find a way to make it work.
Same with her gas stationscheme Like I really don't think
that that was okay what she wasdoing, but she was providing a
service, Like she wasn't justtaking the money, she was
(43:54):
pumping gas for people.
Speaker 1 (43:56):
Yeah, she didn't steal from anybody except her
dad, which wasn't wasn't exactly, I mean, like moment when he's
like sorry sunshine, you'regoing to have to figure out your
way out of this, it really yeah.
Because she really.
He implies that she's somehowlazy.
Yes, and she has been.
(44:17):
I mean, it was maybe not thewisest thing to burn the bridge
with good morning grants beforeshe had something else lined up.
She could have lined somethingelse up and then burn the bridge
.
But whatever she doeseventually sit on her couch and
talk to the 1,900 psychic linefor hours and hours and hours.
But that's after both of herparents turn her down for loans
(44:40):
and her dad.
They make it clear dad's gotplenty of money.
It's not that he doesn't haveit.
He's unwilling to help.
He thinks that she needs tolearn a lesson or something.
He's trying to teach her alesson and we know that like she
doesn't actually need thatlesson.
Like this kid cause she is akid is really hardworking and
trying really, really hard,maybe takes herself a little too
(45:04):
seriously, but you know we alldid when we were 23.
Yeah, yeah, sort of goes withthe territory of being 23.
Speaker 2 (45:12):
So yeah, it's interesting just thinking about
our Charlie and the ChocolateFactory, where Willy Wonka,
where Charlie is seen to be purepart because he gives the
everlasting gov stopper back andlike that's what I am bribed
and I very much like I'm a blackand white thinker and you know
I'm a rule follower so like evenwatching it it made me
(45:35):
uncomfortable that she did thatto her dad's money, but at the
same time I was also just likeman, that guy sucks, and like I
admired the hustle, I admiredthe creativity of it Because, in
addition, like that's, sincethey were doing their grocery
shopping at the gas stationbecause she had the gas card, so
like I admired the creativityof that because that was not
(45:56):
what her dad intended it to do,that was, she was being a
subversive bitch.
For those who don't know, thegreatest compliment Tracy ever
gave me was telling me I was asubversive bitch.
Speaker 1 (46:09):
She wants it on her gravestone.
I do, I do.
Speaker 2 (46:14):
I'm notorious EGB subversive bitch, so like I
really admire that, I alsoconsidering that level of self
actualization, like creativity,DIY, like the like.
All right, I'm counting onmyself.
I also comprehend not trustingMichael's offer.
(46:35):
Yeah, In that I would have madethe exact same decision at 23.
Yeah, probably Even withouthaving seen this movie or you
know whatever.
But just like I'm sorry, youwant to do what now?
With how much money?
That can't be right.
Speaker 1 (46:54):
What's the catch?
Okay, One final tidbit and thenI'm going to.
I'm going to try and wrap us up.
So the other thing that I thinkis really interesting within
the context of the conversationabout the difference between
selling out and artistic visionreality bites doesn't mean what
we think.
It means Like we all think.
It means reality sucks.
That's not what she meant.
(47:14):
That was the time of when wewere first starting to talk
about sound bites.
She meant bite sized pieces ofreality.
Your face, you should closeyour mouth.
You're going to catch someflies.
I read it this morning.
You just blew my mind.
Right, I read it this morning inthat Atlantic article that
(47:36):
Childress was like yeah, it was,we had sound bites.
Was it like a new concept in,you know, in the early nineties?
And that's what I was thinkingof.
Like that's what the MTV thingturns it into.
Is like reality, reality yeahas opposed to yeah it's, it's a,
it's a noun, it's not a verb,wow, and reality is an adjective
(48:00):
, anyway.
So that's just a little tidbitactually that I wanted to make
sure that I shared, because Iread it this morning I was like
oh huh, nope, it's become athing.
You know, she was interviewedfor this Atlantic article and
she was saying like yeah, I justsaw it like on CNN, like
reality bites, trump, or realitybites, you know, like it's like
a thing, it's like it's like aTrumpy phrase that we use, but
(48:24):
it's the way she interpreted it.
Speaker 2 (48:25):
Well, it's interesting because that also
changes in some ways the like,the meaning of the movie Cause
if it ends with the idea thatyou sell out or you suffer, like
well, in reality, in reality,in reality, bites yeah.
Speaker 1 (48:39):
No, it was a descriptor of what she was
giving us.
Yeah, wow, okay, so I'm goingto.
We've been talking for a longminute, so I'm going to try and
see if I can like give thehighlights.
So, 1994, reality bites, passesthe back tail test, no problem,
(49:01):
very little racial diversity.
The ultimate duality that weare given, which has multiple
layers, is between selling outand suffering, and suffering is
made to be appealing, becausethat is being true, that's being
pure to who you are and to yourart.
(49:23):
And these 30 years later, Iquestion the dichotomy at all.
I think there are more optionsand also, even within the
dichotomy, I question whether ornot suffering is actually the
right choice.
Speaker 2 (49:38):
It.
Also, it makes a suggestionthat the artist is solitary
because, like then, editingwould be selling out, like the
story told about ElizabethGilbert, like the idea that,
like you, have one singularvision and know how dare anyone
question it, which is verydamaging.
It's a very damaging view ofart.
Speaker 1 (50:00):
Right, it leads to within the movie, and I think
you know the ripple effect itleads us.
Leads to us being dishonestwith ourselves about what we
actually want in a protectivemove.
So we are there.
There's a fear of failure whichactually becomes a fear of
success.
Speaker 2 (50:19):
It's a fear of vulnerability, kind of, yeah, I
think all of us.
Yeah, you have to be vulnerableto fail, and you can't succeed
unless you are vulnerable.
Speaker 1 (50:30):
The relation between the art and romantic
entanglements is.
It's there in this film overand over and over again, but
there's a, there's a romanticmetaphor perhaps between between
those things, and we see it inMichael and Troy, but we also
see it in Vicki's constant sleep, her promosquuity, if I may
(50:55):
call it that, that she doesn'tmake her happy.
It doesn't make her happy atall, and she uses it as a way to
avoid the fear of rejectionthat is driving, driving her.
We also talked at this sort ofmeta level about the.
You know, this film gave us thestrong female protagonists who
I very much identified with,with whom I very much identified
(51:19):
, and that makes sense becauseit came from a female creator
who herself then becomes erasedwhen her creation becomes
beloved by lots of people.
So in that sense, thelampooning of selling out is
sort of accurate, right, becauseshe, once she, sold out, it's
(51:43):
not that she lost her vision,she lost her identity as its
creator, which is like blowingmy mind a little bit.
I blame that on sexism, not onselling out, though.
Speaker 2 (51:56):
No, yeah, that's sexism, yeah.
Speaker 1 (51:59):
Yeah, yeah.
So those are the big piecesthat I hope that we kind of
covered.
Did I miss anything that youwant to make sure that you name?
Speaker 2 (52:07):
One thing we talked about before we started
recording was with the rawfootage, and how a lot of
Lainey's footage that we seedoes not seem that compelling.
And looking back on it andagain, I haven't seen it since I
myself was probably 23, butlooking back on it it really
(52:28):
feels like she thinks she has tobe complete at age 23.
And so and she thinks that herart is at its pinnacle when
she's still very much a zygote,an artistic zygote.
And so there's some of thefootage.
There's two scenes inparticular that we talk about.
(52:49):
There's one where Vicki isgetting her test results for an
AIDS test and it's devastating,it's just devastating.
And, if I recall correctly,isn't Vicki like and she doesn't
get a negative test result, shedoes, with the waiting.
I mean, yeah, I mean shedoesn't get a positive test
(53:11):
result, yeah, she's gonnapositive, but the waiting is the
devastating part.
Speaker 1 (53:16):
Yeah, at one point she says here I am maybe
probably dying of AIDS likeshe's.
She's terrified, she'sterrified.
Speaker 2 (53:23):
Yeah, terrified and like that's.
When I say that, seen asdevastating, is like I just
feeling for that character and,layered on top of the, the way
that she conducts her romanticlife, being because of a fear of
rejection, and like it's justit's and it's, it's amazing it's
.
It's fantastic filmmaking andfantastic Documentary making in
(53:48):
context.
The other one is Sammy isthinking of coming out to his
parents and and so he talks toVicki as if Vicki is his mother,
like they do a role play of howit would go, and that is
another Lovely scene where Vickiputs on this funny, like
midwestern, like oh, my child, Ilove you, I will join P flag,
(54:11):
and what really stuck with meabout that scene is that it's
showing his friends aresupporting him by doing this,
like this role play, becauseit's got to be terrifying to do
that, especially in the earlymid 90s, but also goofing around
a little bit.
So, like it's just it's, it'ssuch good friendship right there
(54:34):
it does speak to Laney's skillas a Documentarian and tells me
that, like you know, 15 years,20 years, in the future, she'd
be making amazing films, but sheneeds to cook a little longer.
Speaker 1 (54:47):
Yeah, maybe.
I mean I think it really all ofthe friendships in this, the
friendships in this film feelreal.
Yeah, they fight and they makeup and they they feel real and
genuine and like authenticConnections.
I say maybe about Laney'sfilmmaking.
Roger Ebert in hiscontemporaneous review was like
(55:08):
she's not a good filmmaker.
The composition is bad, thepacing is wrong, like he really
didn't like.
Yeah, and he would know, yeah,and so that's why I hesitate,
like I don't watch nearly asmany films as Roger Ebert did.
We also have very differentperspectives about what we care
about, so there's that, but I dothink there's.
Well, it just took itself tooseriously, I think which again
(55:31):
23.
So yeah yeah, okay.
So Wow, we've been talking along time.
Speaker 2 (55:38):
So next time now?
I know we usually go back andforth, but I'm I'm going to be
doing a bonus episode about backto the future, so you are
coming back for our next regularepisode.
What do you have for me nexttime?
Speaker 1 (55:52):
Yeah, I am going to bring you Monty Python and the
Holy Grail.
Speaker 2 (55:58):
Oh, Like the night to think.
Speaker 1 (56:02):
Yeah, you have reader comments for us today, do?
I do have a couple of readercomments.
Speaker 2 (56:06):
Here we go.
So got a couple of commentsabout Willy Wonka and the
chocolate factory from Kiara.
She said I think TimothyChalamet's Wonka had the same
joy and energy of Wilders and Ithink it's an instant classic
addition to the story.
So, and she, she recommendedthat we go see it.
So I was like, okay, that makesme feel good.
Just his Johnny Depp's Wonkaleft such a bad taste in my
(56:29):
mouth, although I was thinkingabout the fact that, like, if
you think about it in some ways,johnny Depp was really just
showing what Was screwed upabout this character.
It's just like is that why wego to the movies?
I don't know.
And Then David said, inresponse to my saying come with
me and you'll be in a world ofcapitalistic monopolies
(56:51):
Regulated monopolies, is whathow I put it.
So I posted that and David saidaren't we already?
I'm like yeah, I break down thefive.
And then I have one more fromLisa on Clue, who said that to
this day, whenever my familymembers are angry, we yell
flames.
Side of my face, madeline Connstyle.
Speaker 1 (57:13):
Because iconic.
Well, listener, if you havedeep thoughts From our deep
thoughts, we would love to hearthem for reals.
So you can Click the link inour show notes to go to our
listener forum to share themwith us.
Email us at guygirlsmedia atGmail dot com, or find us on
(57:37):
socials and let us know there.
Speaker 2 (57:39):
Mm-hmm, we'd love to hear from you.
Speaker 1 (57:41):
All right until next time.
Till next time, do you likestickers?
Sure, we all do.
If you head over toguygirlsmediacom, slash, sign up
and share your address with us.
We'll send you a sticker.
It really is that easy, butdon't wait, there's a limited
quantity.
Thanks for listening.
Our theme music is professorumlaut by Kevin McLeod from
(58:04):
incompetechcom.
Find full music credits in theshow notes.
Until next time, remember, popculture is still culture, and
shouldn't you know what's inyour head?
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