Ready to uncover the intriguing connection between Parkinson's disease and the gastrointestinal microbiome? Join us as we explore this fascinating subject with data analytics specialist turned microbiome researcher, Martha Carlin. Martha brings us up to speed on her research endeavors, one of which includes the Bio Collective, a project that collected fecal samples from 1,000 participants, and her venture, BiotiQuest, that developed unique probiotics with collaborative microbial species.
Some of you following my Defiant Health podcasts or my DrDavisInfiniteHealth.com website may already be familiar with Martha Carlin. For those of you not yet acquainted, Martha Carlin, formerly a data analytics specialist, turned all of her attentions to the microbiome when her husband was diagnosed with Parkinson’s disease. She quickly learned that current medical treatments for this condition do not slow the progression of the disease from increasing disability and dementia; they only reduce some of the phenomena such as tremor or impaired gait. She therefore founded several organizations to better study both Parkinson’s disease and the gastrointestinal microbiome.
As we venture deeper, we connect with Martha and Dr Raul Cano, founders of Biotiquest, to understand their innovative probiotic products designed to support various health aspects. Martha shares the results of their recent study, showing a significant shift in the microbiome and drop in serum lipopolysaccharide.
In the captivating latter part of our conversation, we investigate the promising potential of probiotics and fasting in Parkinson's disease treatment. Martha and Raul share their patent news and discuss their probiotics' successful use to reduce endotoxemia and target abdominal visceral fat. We also examine the story of a man's remission of Parkinson's disease after a long fast, sparking a discussion on the potential of a 30-day fast experiment. By tuning in, you'll gain a wealth of insights into the evolving field of microbiome research and the impressive impacts of probiotics on our health.
Full disclosure: BiotiQuest is a sponsor of this Defiant Health podcast. But the reason I asked Martha and BiotiQuest to be a sponsor is because their interests are aligned With my philosophy and scientific interests: we are both interested in giving people better tools for health, specifically better tools to manage the microbiome.
For BiotiQuest probiotics including Sugar Shift, go here.
A 15% discount is available for Defiant Health podcast listeners by entering discount code UNDOC15 (case-sensitive) at checkout.*
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
William Davis, MD (00:07):
Some of you following my Defiant Health
podcasts or my DR Davis InfiniteHealthcom website may already
be familiar with Martha Carlin.
For those of you not yetacquainted, martha Carlin,
formerly a data analyticsspecialist, turned all of her
attentions to the microbiomewhen her husband was diagnosed
with Parkinson's disease.
She quickly learned thatcurrent medical treatments for
(00:30):
this condition do not slow theprogression of the disease from
increasing disability anddementia.
They only reduce some of thephenomena, such as tremor or
impaired gait, but do not slowthe progression of the disease.
She therefore founded severalorganizations to better study
both Parkinson's disease and thegastrointestinal microbiome.
One of her projects is the BioCollective, co-founded with
(00:53):
academic microbiologist RaulCano, phd, in which they
collected fecal actually wholebowel movement samples rather
than the usual small stoolsample from 1,000 participants,
an effort that generated anumber of novel observations.
She also co-founded Bioti Questthat has developed a number of
unique probiotics, using amethod to identify collaborative
(01:16):
or guild effects amongprobiotic microbial species to
work towards greatereffectiveness in alleviating
health conditions.
As Martha and her team have beengenerating unique observations
at breakneck speed, I thought itwould be a good time to bring
Martha back for an update ontheir recent work.
Full disclosure Bioti Quest isa sponsor of this Defiant Health
(01:37):
podcast, but the reason I askedMartha and Bioti Quest to be a
sponsor is because theirinterests are aligned with my
philosophy and scientificinterests.
We are both interested ingiving people better tools for
health, specifically bettertools to manage the
gastrointestinal microbiome.
Here in the podcast, let's talkabout Defiant Health's sponsors
that include Paleo Valley, whoprovides fermented grass-fed
(02:00):
beef sticks, bone broth, proteinrich in collagen, organic super
greens and low-carb super foodbars, and now 100% grass-fed and
finished pastured meats.
And our newest sponsor, as Imentioned earlier, biotic Quest,
who provides unique probioticssuch as sugar shift to support
healthy blood sugars, and simpleslumber to assist in obtaining
(02:21):
healthy sleep.
Bioti Quest crafted with theunique property of combining
synergistic microbes.
Thanks, martha, thanks forcoming on.
It's always been a pleasurehaving you back on because
you're so full of novel ideasand new observations.
So it's been at least a year.
So I think we've last talked.
You want to kind of fill in theaudience on the kinds of things
(02:42):
you've been up to.
Martha Carlin (02:44):
Sure, bill, I'm glad to be here today.
One of the areas I hear youtalk about so much is endotoxin,
and that's an area that I waslooking at I'd say on the
fringes, I mean, for people whomaybe don't know that much about
me.
I started into this fieldbecause my husband had
(03:06):
Parkinson's and I startedstudying science kind of on the
side and eventually, eight yearsago, founded the Biocollective,
a microbiome company, and wedid a large-scale collection of
Parkinson's microbiome samplesand with that data we've
collaborated with differentresearch groups, really all over
(03:30):
the place.
We've shared our data withdifferent academics and we've
shared our samples with otherpeople.
We have a couple ofpublications.
But on the endotoxin front wehad done some research analysis
with a company called Artigens.
Artigens is a machine learningtool that they were mostly using
(03:52):
for cancer diagnostics, butthey wanted to start using it
more in the microbiome, so theyused our data set and what came
out of that was some of the keydrivers that they were showing
as indicators of Parkinson'swere gram-negative bacteria and
of course those are theendotoxin producers.
(04:12):
And I had formulated thesugar-ship product of course we
advertise on your show thesugar-ship product, originally
for my husband based on someresearch that had shown that the
sugar alcohol, mannitol, couldstop the aggregation of the
proteins.
Of course, since then we foundout a lot more about how the
(04:36):
product works than just themannitol.
It is a free radical scavengeralso.
But we did a clinical triallast year, actually in a
diabetes population, becausethey're much easier end point
measurements in a diabetescohort than there are in a
Parkinson's cohort and therereally are no agreed upon end
(04:59):
point measurements withParkinson's related to endotoxin
or related to any of the bloodsugar measurements.
So in our clinical trial wefound that one of the
measurements that improvedsignificantly during the trial
was serum lipopolysaccharide.
So kind of turning that backaround, I actually just wrote a
(05:20):
piece.
I have a personal blog where Iwrite about Parkinson's,
alternative health-relatedthings and the latest microbiome
research papers, and so I wrotea piece called Rethinking
Parkinson's Disease and reallyfocusing on lipopolysaccharide
and the gram-negative bacteria.
And now I'm not saying that'sthe only cause of Parkinson's,
(05:44):
because Parkinson's is prettycomplex and there's quite a bit
of evidence related toherbicides and pesticides.
But of course we know those areantibiotic and they alter the
microbiome.
But in the process of writingthat blog post you know started
going through the PubMedresearch and of course I already
(06:04):
knew there is an animal modelof Parkinson's disease where
they duplicate the symptoms andthe outcomes of Parkinson's
using LPS they injected into themouse and there is a
lipopolysaccharide model indiabetes.
So I mean, I'm sort of curiouswhat you think about these
(06:27):
animal models and how we couldactually go look at all the
different animal models and themicrobial metabolites that are
byproducts that they use toinduce these animal models to
kind of connect the dots to themicrobiome.
William Davis, MD (06:42):
You know, I'm always impressed that there's a
German group who actually tookLPS and injected into humans,
which is a very scary prospectBecause, as you know, if you
miscalculate even a little bityou can kill somebody.
But this German group did itfor depression, for question of
depression, and so they tooknon-depressed people and
injected LPS into them andwithin about three hours they
(07:04):
were clinically depressed andMRI functional MRI showed all
the hallmarks of depression.
And so you know, I don't know,I don't think anybody really
knows yet what the mediators are.
It may be a complex pathwayinvolving multiple receptors,
multiple mediators, but it'sclear that, as you point out,
lps, elevated LPS, the two tofour fold increase in serum LPS,
(07:27):
not the hundred fold of sepsisbut the two to four fold of, say
, of SIBO, that clearly drives alot of disease.
So as you know, martha, itreally means having to
reconsider not just Parkinson's,not just depression, but
reconsidering practically allhuman disease, and maybe in a
couple of generations some of mycolleagues will catch up to
(07:48):
that in practice.
Martha Carlin (07:49):
Right?
Well, it does.
It definitely turns things onon it or on its ear.
Well, and another sort ofconnection to that where people
who think they're healthyactually are endurance athletes.
So my husband was a marathonrunner before he was diagnosed
with Parkinson's.
And in the process of all thisstudying and looking at things
(08:12):
as it turns out, when you doendurance athletics, you there
is a period of like the 24 hoursfollowing the endurance
exercise where the gut is moreleaky and more endotoxin goes
out and creates thatinflammation.
And so if you have people whoare chronically doing endurance
(08:34):
athletics and I've talked to alot of people with Parkinson's
who were marathon runners youknow they may not really be
fully grasping the context ofhow that impacts the gut and the
brain and the long termimplications for their health.
William Davis, MD (08:52):
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(11:05):
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You know, Martha, I think it'sbecoming clear from that
evidence as well as some otherevidence, non-microbial type
evidence, where you know,there's a marker in the
(11:52):
bloodstream called creatinkinase and there's a marker for
skeletal muscle, like in thethighs and arms and such, and
then there's a marker formyocardial muscle.
So CK, we say CKMM for skeletal, CKMB for myocardial.
Well, if we were to drawsomeone's blood prior to
starting their marathon or theirtriathlon or whatever they're
(12:13):
doing, and then we draw it asthey cross the finish line.
There's a huge flood of both ofthose markers into the
bloodstream, Such that some ofthese runners pee brown from
muscle breakdown and the rise inthe CKMB, for instance, it'll
be something like this hundredand twenty eight at the start,
2400 at the end, and with the MBit's about the same magnitude
(12:37):
as a heart attack.
So between that and themicrobiome disruptions and the
endotoxemia, it's probably not agood idea to run marathons.
Martha Carlin (12:46):
Well, you know, the other sort of interest, I
don't.
I don't think it's quite as badnow as it was 20 years ago when
my husband was runningmarathons, but of course you
know they are the ultimatecarboloaders and of course we're
low carb people and there's agood reason to be low carb, but
that whole, just kind of thewhole ethos around running and
(13:09):
everything was around your howmany, how much carbs you're
taking in the, the goose thatthey would, you know, sell in
the jail packs that are made offruit toast that are just
horrible.
So you know, I think I wondersometimes how, how long it takes
to undo something like that.
William Davis, MD (13:28):
You shared some of your data on the most
recent study you did with me.
How free do you feel in talkingabout some of the results?
Martha Carlin (13:35):
Oh, we can.
I can talk about the results.
So I mean it was interesting.
So in the in the trial group wehad.
So we had 30 subjects on thesugarship product and 30
subjects on control and thecontrol was actually all of the
prebiotics that are in theformula itself and just none of
(13:58):
the live bugs.
And there were some.
There were some benefits tojust the fiber.
There were some markers thatimproved in people taking the
fiber and the sugar ship.
But we measured triglyceridesserum, lps, a measurement called
HOMA-IR which isn't typicalhere in the United States but
(14:23):
internationally it's moremeasure that's looked at for
insulin resistance.
We did insulin, cholesterol andpost-prandial and fasting blood
glucose and HBA1C.
The original study was threemonths and then at the end of
the study we unblinded and wetook 10 subjects and kept them
(14:46):
on the sugar shift who had beenon the sugar shift.
We kept them on for anadditional three months, so they
were on a total of six months.
Because we didn't we didn't geta statistically significant
endpoint measurement on HBA1Cand that's in large part because
it takes about 120 days for theblood cells to turn over and we
(15:07):
did get a drop in the HBA1C atthe six month point.
So, but one of the mostdramatic things at each one of
the measurement points was thedrop in serum lipopolysaccharide
.
So, and by the end of the sixmonth period it wasn't zero, but
it was pretty close to zero.
(15:28):
So there was a significantshift in the microbiome where
those gram negative bacteria aregetting pushed out and the
microbiome is being remodeledbecause they don't have those
sugars.
William Davis, MD (15:42):
So you did do a microbiome analysis also.
Martha Carlin (15:44):
So we did do a microbiome analysis also and
we're working on the microbiomepaper.
Actually, this past week we hadour second meeting looking at
data and one of the areas we'relooking at is changes in
virulence factors.
Last week we were just lookingat the taxonomy so we did get we
did get some importantincreases in some beneficial
(16:08):
groups of clostridia that helpkind of keep the bad clostridian
check and I don't have the datain front of me, but I want to
say roseburea andfecaliprosnitii.
Both are which are kind ofbeneficial keystone species,
both of those rows, and we hadan increase in bifidobacteria.
William Davis, MD (16:28):
Very nice.
Martha Carlin (16:30):
Very excited about those results.
William Davis, MD (16:32):
You know, so listeners understand
obliteration of serum LPS isIncredibly important finding
because that means over timethat formulation is going to
have spectacular health benefits, since a higher as you know,
higher LPS levels drive insulinresistance, inflammation,
(16:53):
numerous other Distortions ofhealth.
So a hundred percent reduction,or something close to that, is
absolutely spectacular and, tomy knowledge I'm completely
unprecedented well, you knowit's serum, LPS, is, I guess,
not that frequently Measured.
Martha Carlin (17:10):
I'm not sure whether you can actually go to,
say, a lab core, the hospital,and just get an LPS test.
No, unfortunately so it wassomething, as we were just
Designing the study, I just Iasked Raul, I said, would they
be able to test serum LPS?
Because you know, I think thatthis LPS is a driver of all
(17:34):
these different things.
When I look at these animalmodels, you know, maybe it'd be
great if we can measure that.
And I mean it was sort of athere was a bit of a last minute
Kind of toss the ball in andsee if we could do it.
And you know, we were able todo it, and or they were able to
do it in the in the study andjust was.
We were just very excited aboutit because, you know, it's one
(17:56):
of those things that's justgoing to have a lot of long-term
health benefits, if you, youknow, if you continue to focus
on that.
William Davis, MD (18:05):
Did you see any changes in body composition,
like waste, circumference,weight?
Martha Carlin (18:10):
They didn't.
They did not do Measurements ofthat.
We do have some data on from awell-being survey and there were
some people who reported Losingweight.
We do get customers who tell usyou know, when they take it.
I mean I'll have people who sayI lost 15 pounds.
That doesn't happen toeverybody and so and we haven't
(18:30):
studied that.
So I'm always very carefulabout not really selling it as a
weight loss product.
But what it, what it will oftendo, is make people less hungry.
So, and one of the things thatwe've been looking at in the
microbiome data and Raul foundthis really interesting paper
about when you, when you have adiverse and well functioning
(18:55):
Microbome that's making all ofthose B vitamins and the TCA
cycles working and all that, youhave this level of efficiency
where I mean I guess everybody'shappy and so You're not getting
that feed me Seymour signal allthe time that's telling you to
eat.
And I know I think sometimes Imean you talk so much about
(19:17):
Ruderite, and of course we have.
We have lactobacillus Ruderitein our formula and I love that
bug, but I, you know, wonder ifthat's not some of the driver
there too.
William Davis, MD (19:28):
Yeah, I bet you're right.
You know it's my suspicion thatthe reasons why mostly lack the
silts gas or I two strains ofgas, or I like the 2055 and the
BNR 17 and, of course, ruderiteI suspect that there's changes
in body composition due to thethat is, a reduction, waste
circumference or cross sexual CTor MRI reduction in visceral
(19:49):
fat area.
I'm gonna bet you it's exactlywhat you did and that is the
reduction in endotoxemia.
So that can be.
I think that'll prove over time.
We need you and I need betterevidence, but I'm gonna predict
that that is the fundamentalunderlying process that allows
the Specifically target loss ofabdominal visceral fat, because
(20:10):
I think we're seeing it.
So it'll be interesting infuture if you do any body
composition work.
This, even something simplelike a waste circumference,
because we're, as we're seeingwith just the Ruderite and some
other non-microbial Microbialagrees with your formulation
with a hundred percent reductionLPS, I'm gonna bet you it's
even bigger.
Martha Carlin (20:28):
So that's, that's a great idea because we're
actually gonna be runninganother Sugarship challenge in
October, probably starting atthe end of October or well,
we're trying to decide because,you know, when you go into the
holidays not too many peoplewant to be in a sugar challenge,
but it's actually a time whenyou do need a lot of support to
stay away from all the sugar.
(20:50):
But maybe we can add a wastecircumference measurement or you
know something like that to themetrics we ask people to try to
put together for that, one ofthe other good news things we
have.
So I think it was about fiveyears ago.
We filed a patent that coversmore than the sugarship formula
(21:11):
it covers.
It's a patent for probioticsand method of use and it's
basically our consortium conceptof putting microbes together to
produce a, you know, specificoutput.
And so we had filed a patentfor the production of mannitol,
reduced glutathione butyrate,some of these other things and
(21:33):
the potential treatment ofParkinson's disease and diabetes
and some other things.
And slowly but surely that hasmoved along, and actually at the
beginning of October wereceived notice from the patent
office that they are rewardingthe patent, so Congratulations.
So we're in the process of, youknow paying our fees and
(21:54):
getting all of that done, butthat was pretty exciting for us
as well.
William Davis, MD (21:59):
That is terrific.
I know you think a lot aboutParkinson's disease.
Has your thinking changed orevolved in any way in the last
year?
Martha Carlin (22:05):
It.
Actually it has evolved quite abit and it's evolved in a
couple of ways.
One actually came from one ofyour inner circle people, my
husband.
So when he started taking thesugar shift back in 2017,
there's a measurement called theUPDR score.
That measures kind of howadvanced somebody is and at that
time his score was at 35.
(22:27):
And you know he had was like 15years.
In a year after taking thesugar shift, his score had
dropped to a 20, 1920.
And it stabilized there forfour years.
But then at the end of 2021, hehad COVID and he had a very bad
bout of COVID and there's someresearch showing that low
(22:48):
Bifidobacteria is associatedwith poor outcomes in COVID and
low Bifidobacteria is also anindicator in Parkinson's.
And one of your people contacthe had some long COVID symptoms.
He was really struggling to getback to where he was before.
And one of your peoplecontacted me who had had a
neighbor.
She made your yogurt with mysugar shift because her neighbor
(23:13):
got very severe Parkinson'slike symptoms after he got COVID
and so she made it like withstarting with 10 capsules and
then with your doubling, I meanyou're getting up to like 800
billion CFUs or something in theback and I started doing that
and I mean we did a few, we didsome other things along the way,
but when he started doing thatyogurt and I was alternating
(23:36):
that with the Rudora, hisimprovement really kind of
accelerated, so that thatchanged my mind quite a bit.
But then the other thing Istarted looking at is actually
fasting, so the opposite ofputting anything in the pipe.
And John started doingsomething called the if you're
familiar with the research ofBalter Longo and the prolon fast
(23:58):
mimicking diet.
He started doing a fastmimicking diet about every five
weeks and always at the fifthday of that diet he's always at
his very best.
Well, in Parkinson's autophagywhich is for your listeners, if
they don't know that's the kindof the eating up of the damaged
(24:18):
cells and that happens fasterduring fasting than if you're
eating all the time.
It doesn't happen.
And in Parkinson's autophagy isreally not working properly.
So you know there's definitelysomething to that.
And in the last month I actuallyreceived a phone call from a
gentleman with Parkinson's whoI've communicated with him some
(24:40):
over the last several years onmy, my personal blog.
He said don't you want to knowhow I cured myself?
And so I had a phone call withhim and I mean and I'm not
telling people to run out and dothis and I'm still getting a
little more details andinformation about how he went
about it but he did a.
He did a very long fast and atthe end of that fast he went in
(25:04):
to see his doctors and he hadmore than Parkinson's wrong with
him.
He had some kidney issues andsome other things.
And you know, his doctor said tohim like what have you?
And he said, can you do it formy other patients?
And he said, well, I could, butif I, you know, if you started
doing that for your patients,you probably lose your license.
And so we're actually lookingat I've talked to a small group
(25:29):
of people.
I have a little guest cabinhere on my farm that can
accommodate three couples or,you know, three individuals, and
we're looking at doing inJanuary a 30 day fast where you
know we will take some bloodmeasurements and have some
tracking and and look at that asa what that may do along the
(25:51):
way.
And if you think about if thereare pathogens in the GI tract,
when you stop putting food inthere, you're going to stop
feeding them and you know,eventually they may just totally
drop out of the niche thatthey've taken over.
William Davis, MD (26:05):
And that's what this guy with presumed
remission did.
Yeah, oh, very interesting,very interesting.
Martha Carlin (26:12):
It takes about 30 days for your mitochondria to
turn over.
So I think you know I'm justsort of picking that as an
arbitrary number, but now I knowyou introduced the antibiotic
antidote.
William Davis, MD (26:24):
Could you give us the rationale for that
formulation?
Martha Carlin (26:27):
Sure, actually, that the idea for that came
probably about I think it wasabout four, four years ago.
There was a study that came outof the Weitzman Institute in
Israel.
What they showed was an11-strain mixture of probiotic
organisms.
I ultimately found a product inIsrael that it looked like it
(26:49):
probably was that product, butthey were looking at it, as in a
study for people who had takenantibiotics, and they found that
it was actually detrimental.
And of course I got the paperand was looking at it and I was
talking to Raul and Raul saidwell, I would never put all
(27:10):
these organisms together becauseit's going to make the whole
system way too acidic and thenyou're not going to be able to
repopulate.
He's like you need to dosomething that's more balanced,
that enables kind of the wholesystem to flourish again.
And so you know, we Raoul'sbrain went away and said, okay,
(27:31):
here's how I would do it.
And then we put it into ourBioFlux computational model and
tweaked it a little bit and cameout with antibiotic antidote
and that was our concept.
But we really didn't bring it tothe market until it was a
couple of years later, one of myadvisors, steve Cosmi, who's a
fermentation chemist, his mother, who's in her 80s, had
(27:55):
appendicitis and had to have herappendix removed and then she
got sepsis and had to be on IVantibiotics for a month.
And he called me up and he said,martha, when are you going to
make that antibiotic antidote?
And I said, well, you know, letme look at what I have in my
strain inventory, like maybe Icould make a small batch of it.
(28:17):
And so we looked and we had,you know, we had all but two
strains we needed.
And so we called our supplierand ordered some inventory and
we made a small batch, hismother's.
I mean, she has a review on thewebsite and she calls me all
the time and tells me how muchshe loves it.
And he just laughed becausehe'd been in the probiotics
(28:41):
industry for 20 years andtelling his mother how great
probiotics she was.
Listen to him.
And now she thinks theantibiotic antidote and
biodequest is the best thingsince Brad.
William Davis, MD (28:54):
So how about the simple slumber formulation?
How do you come to that mixture?
Martha Carlin (29:00):
Well, we just knew so many people have sleep
problems and you know I had alsobeen looking at tryptophan
metabolism and how that'sinvolved in a lot of
dysregulation in the microbiome,and so that was another one
where I mean, actually all theseideas came, raul and I sat one
(29:22):
week in our laboratory with thewhiteboard and we kind of mapped
out, I think, about 25 or 30problems that people have Either
, you know, they're not makingthe vitamins right in their gut
or they've got sleep problems,or they have this vitamin
problem, or you know they theydon't have a good immune system
or sugar metabolism.
(29:43):
And we sort of mapped all ofthat out and mapped out the
different microbes and what weespecially Raul but I also had
some textbooks on what are thecapabilities of all these
different microbes.
And then he went away andcogitated for 30, 45 days and
came back with, you know, thisconcoction of all the different
(30:08):
formulas that we had, and thenwe we had our computational
model and we were able to kindof plug and play those.
So we've got 25 differentformulas that of course you know
we haven't brought them all tomarket.
You know we have some for hotflashes.
We even prototyped one forsomebody who was interested in a
formula using probiotics tohelp with opioid addiction.
(30:32):
I mean that would be a prettynovel approach.
But shoot, anything that couldhelp with that would be amazing.
But the one that we have slatednext for coming out is called
Perfect Peace, and that's more.
You know mood and sleepregulation, mood and depression,
or, you know, just leveling outthe mood swings.
William Davis, MD (30:53):
So do you have an idea what the next year
holds for you?
Martha Carlin (30:57):
Well.
So I mean the next year, wereally would like to get the the
perfect piece out, and I thinkI also.
We have an electrolyte, anelectrolyte probiotic blend that
we have also been working on,so we'd like to get both of
those out and really just getmore of the word out on.
I mean, sugar shift is by farour best-selling product because
(31:21):
it's just a tremendous formulafor overall metabolic health,
and what we see so much today ispeople with problems with
metabolic health, and it kind ofunderlies all the other little
downstream things or biggerdownstream things.
You know, if you can get thatmetabolic health in good shape,
(31:42):
then everything else is gonnawork better, you're gonna sleep
better, you're gonna have moreenergy, you're gonna be happier.
William Davis, MD (31:49):
And, as you know, you provided A sugar shift
for 20 of my followers who arenon diabetic and agreed to do
fingers take blood glucose atthe start and then daily for a
month, and I was so impressedmore 9.8 milligrams per
deciliter reduction over thefour weeks, which in a non
diabetic, non pre diabeticpopulation is Absolutely huge.
(32:12):
That is on a par with aprescription medication.
But of course, the sugar shiftis not a medication, doesn't
come with side effects.
It comes with ancillarybenefits, unlike, say, a drug
you take to reduce blood sugar.
So I think sugar shift has thepotential to completely change
the landscape of how Diabetes ismanaged and how people can
(32:33):
prevent diabetes.
You know, I'm gonna bet youthere's even a age reversing
effect and waist shrinkingeffect because of the reduction
in insulin resistance that'snecessary to see a drop in
glucose of that magnitude.
So that's a spectacular outcome.
Martha Carlin (32:47):
Well, I, you know we'd like to do more studies
and again we're gonna haveanother sugar shift challenge,
the the big challenge.
You know.
For you you've got a tight,close-knit group.
You know your people willactually follow up and do all
the data.
The last time we did it we had200 people and I think about 25
of them actually stuck withDoing the reporting throughout
(33:11):
the period.
So we're still kind of trying tofigure out if there's a better
way to Get people to measure onething or another, and of course
, most people don't want tomeasure blood sugar.
So that's never much fun.
But you know, in my ownpersonal experience I mean I
take sure shift and I Do aketogenic diet and so I have a
(33:32):
keto mojo and If I don't take it, versus when I do take it
before I like when I take myevening dose, if I remember to
take my evening Sugar Shift, myblood sugar is always about five
or ten points lower the next,more than it would be if I
didn't take it.
And I mean it just makes sensebecause it's Eating up those
(33:53):
sugars and turning it intomannitol, which is doesn't spike
your blood sugar.
So it's kind of just aboutbasic biochemistry.
William Davis, MD (34:02):
Well, martha, you are a flurry of interesting
activity, so thanks as always.
Martha Carlin (34:06):
coming back on any closing comments, Well, I
mean, I just I'd like to say athank you to you for all the
education you do for people onthe micro bone and, you know,
for being that the kind ofglobal ambassador for
lactobacillus rhodii which youknow we love that microbe to.
(34:27):
It's not in every one of ourformulas, but you know, I just
love how you're an evangelistfor, for gut health and for ways
for people to Measure andunderstand what's going on in
their gut.
And we didn't even talk aboutsebo today, but that's.
You know there's a bigconnection to sebo methane
hydrogen sulfide in Parkinson's.
(34:47):
So, you know, anybody who'slistening to this, who is
interested in learning moreabout that, should listen to
some of your talks about how touse the food marble and and
looking at sebo and addressingsebo, because I think that's
also an Undernot-aligned driverin Parkinson's disease as well.
William Davis, MD (35:06):
I will post, of course, links and discount
codes and such for all thebiodequest products in the show
notes.
So so we'll send it to yoursite, because why are they doing
incredible work?
I'm very proud of what you andRowell are are accomplishing.
Martha Carlin (35:20):
Well, we appreciate it and I'm I am very
fortunate to have Rowell because, as you know, he's he's one of
a kind who is like a walkingencyclopedia of microbes.
William Davis, MD (35:32):
Thank you, Martha.
Martha Carlin (35:33):
Thank you, Bill.
Some of you following my Defiant Health
podcasts or my DR Davis InfiniteHealthcom website may already
be familiar with Martha Carlin.
For those of you not yetacquainted, martha Carlin,
formerly a data analyticsspecialist, turned all of her
attentions to the microbiomewhen her husband was diagnosed
with Parkinson's disease.
She quickly learned thatcurrent medical treatments for
(00:30):
this condition do not slow theprogression of the disease from
increasing disability anddementia.
They only reduce some of thephenomena, such as tremor or
impaired gait, but do not slowthe progression of the disease.
She therefore founded severalorganizations to better study
both Parkinson's disease and thegastrointestinal microbiome.
One of her projects is the BioCollective, co-founded with
(00:53):
academic microbiologist RaulCano, phd, in which they
collected fecal actually wholebowel movement samples rather
than the usual small stoolsample from 1,000 participants,
an effort that generated anumber of novel observations.
She also co-founded Bioti Questthat has developed a number of
unique probiotics, using amethod to identify collaborative
(01:16):
or guild effects amongprobiotic microbial species to
work towards greatereffectiveness in alleviating
health conditions.
As Martha and her team have beengenerating unique observations
at breakneck speed, I thought itwould be a good time to bring
Martha back for an update ontheir recent work.
Full disclosure Bioti Quest isa sponsor of this Defiant Health
(01:37):
podcast, but the reason I askedMartha and Bioti Quest to be a
sponsor is because theirinterests are aligned with my
philosophy and scientificinterests.
We are both interested ingiving people better tools for
health, specifically bettertools to manage the
gastrointestinal microbiome.
Here in the podcast, let's talkabout Defiant Health's sponsors
that include Paleo Valley, whoprovides fermented grass-fed
(02:00):
beef sticks, bone broth, proteinrich in collagen, organic super
greens and low-carb super foodbars, and now 100% grass-fed and
finished pastured meats.
And our newest sponsor, as Imentioned earlier, biotic Quest,
who provides unique probioticssuch as sugar shift to support
healthy blood sugars, and simpleslumber to assist in obtaining
(02:21):
healthy sleep.
Bioti Quest crafted with theunique property of combining
synergistic microbes.
Thanks, martha, thanks forcoming on.
It's always been a pleasurehaving you back on because
you're so full of novel ideasand new observations.
So it's been at least a year.
So I think we've last talked.
You want to kind of fill in theaudience on the kinds of things
(02:42):
you've been up to.
Martha Carlin (02:44):
Sure, bill, I'm glad to be here today.
One of the areas I hear youtalk about so much is endotoxin,
and that's an area that I waslooking at I'd say on the
fringes, I mean, for people whomaybe don't know that much about
me.
I started into this fieldbecause my husband had
(03:06):
Parkinson's and I startedstudying science kind of on the
side and eventually, eight yearsago, founded the Biocollective,
a microbiome company, and wedid a large-scale collection of
Parkinson's microbiome samplesand with that data we've
collaborated with differentresearch groups, really all over
(03:30):
the place.
We've shared our data withdifferent academics and we've
shared our samples with otherpeople.
We have a couple ofpublications.
But on the endotoxin front wehad done some research analysis
with a company called Artigens.
Artigens is a machine learningtool that they were mostly using
(03:52):
for cancer diagnostics, butthey wanted to start using it
more in the microbiome, so theyused our data set and what came
out of that was some of the keydrivers that they were showing
as indicators of Parkinson'swere gram-negative bacteria and
of course those are theendotoxin producers.
(04:12):
And I had formulated thesugar-ship product of course we
advertise on your show thesugar-ship product, originally
for my husband based on someresearch that had shown that the
sugar alcohol, mannitol, couldstop the aggregation of the
proteins.
Of course, since then we foundout a lot more about how the
(04:36):
product works than just themannitol.
It is a free radical scavengeralso.
But we did a clinical triallast year, actually in a
diabetes population, becausethey're much easier end point
measurements in a diabetescohort than there are in a
Parkinson's cohort and therereally are no agreed upon end
(04:59):
point measurements withParkinson's related to endotoxin
or related to any of the bloodsugar measurements.
So in our clinical trial wefound that one of the
measurements that improvedsignificantly during the trial
was serum lipopolysaccharide.
So kind of turning that backaround, I actually just wrote a
(05:20):
piece.
I have a personal blog where Iwrite about Parkinson's,
alternative health-relatedthings and the latest microbiome
research papers, and so I wrotea piece called Rethinking
Parkinson's Disease and reallyfocusing on lipopolysaccharide
and the gram-negative bacteria.
And now I'm not saying that'sthe only cause of Parkinson's,
(05:44):
because Parkinson's is prettycomplex and there's quite a bit
of evidence related toherbicides and pesticides.
But of course we know those areantibiotic and they alter the
microbiome.
But in the process of writingthat blog post you know started
going through the PubMedresearch and of course I already
(06:04):
knew there is an animal modelof Parkinson's disease where
they duplicate the symptoms andthe outcomes of Parkinson's
using LPS they injected into themouse and there is a
lipopolysaccharide model indiabetes.
So I mean, I'm sort of curiouswhat you think about these
(06:27):
animal models and how we couldactually go look at all the
different animal models and themicrobial metabolites that are
byproducts that they use toinduce these animal models to
kind of connect the dots to themicrobiome.
William Davis, MD (06:42):
You know, I'm always impressed that there's a
German group who actually tookLPS and injected into humans,
which is a very scary prospectBecause, as you know, if you
miscalculate even a little bityou can kill somebody.
But this German group did itfor depression, for question of
depression, and so they tooknon-depressed people and
injected LPS into them andwithin about three hours they
(07:04):
were clinically depressed andMRI functional MRI showed all
the hallmarks of depression.
And so you know, I don't know,I don't think anybody really
knows yet what the mediators are.
It may be a complex pathwayinvolving multiple receptors,
multiple mediators, but it'sclear that, as you point out,
lps, elevated LPS, the two tofour fold increase in serum LPS,
(07:27):
not the hundred fold of sepsisbut the two to four fold of, say
, of SIBO, that clearly drives alot of disease.
So as you know, martha, itreally means having to
reconsider not just Parkinson's,not just depression, but
reconsidering practically allhuman disease, and maybe in a
couple of generations some of mycolleagues will catch up to
(07:48):
that in practice.
Martha Carlin (07:49):
Right?
Well, it does.
It definitely turns things onon it or on its ear.
Well, and another sort ofconnection to that where people
who think they're healthyactually are endurance athletes.
So my husband was a marathonrunner before he was diagnosed
with Parkinson's.
And in the process of all thisstudying and looking at things
(08:12):
as it turns out, when you doendurance athletics, you there
is a period of like the 24 hoursfollowing the endurance
exercise where the gut is moreleaky and more endotoxin goes
out and creates thatinflammation.
And so if you have people whoare chronically doing endurance
(08:34):
athletics and I've talked to alot of people with Parkinson's
who were marathon runners youknow they may not really be
fully grasping the context ofhow that impacts the gut and the
brain and the long termimplications for their health.
William Davis, MD (08:52):
The Defiant Health podcast is sponsored by
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I've had numerous conversationswith BiotiQuest founders Martha
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(11:05):
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You know, Martha, I think it'sbecoming clear from that
evidence as well as some otherevidence, non-microbial type
evidence, where you know,there's a marker in the
(11:52):
bloodstream called creatinkinase and there's a marker for
skeletal muscle, like in thethighs and arms and such, and
then there's a marker formyocardial muscle.
So CK, we say CKMM for skeletal, CKMB for myocardial.
Well, if we were to drawsomeone's blood prior to
starting their marathon or theirtriathlon or whatever they're
(12:13):
doing, and then we draw it asthey cross the finish line.
There's a huge flood of both ofthose markers into the
bloodstream, Such that some ofthese runners pee brown from
muscle breakdown and the rise inthe CKMB, for instance, it'll
be something like this hundredand twenty eight at the start,
2400 at the end, and with the MBit's about the same magnitude
(12:37):
as a heart attack.
So between that and themicrobiome disruptions and the
endotoxemia, it's probably not agood idea to run marathons.
Martha Carlin (12:46):
Well, you know, the other sort of interest, I
don't.
I don't think it's quite as badnow as it was 20 years ago when
my husband was runningmarathons, but of course you
know they are the ultimatecarboloaders and of course we're
low carb people and there's agood reason to be low carb, but
that whole, just kind of thewhole ethos around running and
(13:09):
everything was around your howmany, how much carbs you're
taking in the, the goose thatthey would, you know, sell in
the jail packs that are made offruit toast that are just
horrible.
So you know, I think I wondersometimes how, how long it takes
to undo something like that.
William Davis, MD (13:28):
You shared some of your data on the most
recent study you did with me.
How free do you feel in talkingabout some of the results?
Martha Carlin (13:35):
Oh, we can.
I can talk about the results.
So I mean it was interesting.
So in the in the trial group wehad.
So we had 30 subjects on thesugarship product and 30
subjects on control and thecontrol was actually all of the
prebiotics that are in theformula itself and just none of
(13:58):
the live bugs.
And there were some.
There were some benefits tojust the fiber.
There were some markers thatimproved in people taking the
fiber and the sugar ship.
But we measured triglyceridesserum, lps, a measurement called
HOMA-IR which isn't typicalhere in the United States but
(14:23):
internationally it's moremeasure that's looked at for
insulin resistance.
We did insulin, cholesterol andpost-prandial and fasting blood
glucose and HBA1C.
The original study was threemonths and then at the end of
the study we unblinded and wetook 10 subjects and kept them
(14:46):
on the sugar shift who had beenon the sugar shift.
We kept them on for anadditional three months, so they
were on a total of six months.
Because we didn't we didn't geta statistically significant
endpoint measurement on HBA1Cand that's in large part because
it takes about 120 days for theblood cells to turn over and we
(15:07):
did get a drop in the HBA1C atthe six month point.
So, but one of the mostdramatic things at each one of
the measurement points was thedrop in serum lipopolysaccharide
.
So, and by the end of the sixmonth period it wasn't zero, but
it was pretty close to zero.
(15:28):
So there was a significantshift in the microbiome where
those gram negative bacteria aregetting pushed out and the
microbiome is being remodeledbecause they don't have those
sugars.
William Davis, MD (15:42):
So you did do a microbiome analysis also.
Martha Carlin (15:44):
So we did do a microbiome analysis also and
we're working on the microbiomepaper.
Actually, this past week we hadour second meeting looking at
data and one of the areas we'relooking at is changes in
virulence factors.
Last week we were just lookingat the taxonomy so we did get we
did get some importantincreases in some beneficial
(16:08):
groups of clostridia that helpkind of keep the bad clostridian
check and I don't have the datain front of me, but I want to
say roseburea andfecaliprosnitii.
Both are which are kind ofbeneficial keystone species,
both of those rows, and we hadan increase in bifidobacteria.
William Davis, MD (16:28):
Very nice.
Martha Carlin (16:30):
Very excited about those results.
William Davis, MD (16:32):
You know, so listeners understand
obliteration of serum LPS isIncredibly important finding
because that means over timethat formulation is going to
have spectacular health benefits, since a higher as you know,
higher LPS levels drive insulinresistance, inflammation,
(16:53):
numerous other Distortions ofhealth.
So a hundred percent reduction,or something close to that, is
absolutely spectacular and, tomy knowledge I'm completely
unprecedented well, you knowit's serum, LPS, is, I guess,
not that frequently Measured.
Martha Carlin (17:10):
I'm not sure whether you can actually go to,
say, a lab core, the hospital,and just get an LPS test.
No, unfortunately so it wassomething, as we were just
Designing the study, I just Iasked Raul, I said, would they
be able to test serum LPS?
Because you know, I think thatthis LPS is a driver of all
(17:34):
these different things.
When I look at these animalmodels, you know, maybe it'd be
great if we can measure that.
And I mean it was sort of athere was a bit of a last minute
Kind of toss the ball in andsee if we could do it.
And you know, we were able todo it, and or they were able to
do it in the in the study andjust was.
We were just very excited aboutit because, you know, it's one
(17:56):
of those things that's justgoing to have a lot of long-term
health benefits, if you, youknow, if you continue to focus
on that.
William Davis, MD (18:05):
Did you see any changes in body composition,
like waste, circumference,weight?
Martha Carlin (18:10):
They didn't.
They did not do Measurements ofthat.
We do have some data on from awell-being survey and there were
some people who reported Losingweight.
We do get customers who tell usyou know, when they take it.
I mean I'll have people who sayI lost 15 pounds.
That doesn't happen toeverybody and so and we haven't
(18:30):
studied that.
So I'm always very carefulabout not really selling it as a
weight loss product.
But what it, what it will oftendo, is make people less hungry.
So, and one of the things thatwe've been looking at in the
microbiome data and Raul foundthis really interesting paper
about when you, when you have adiverse and well functioning
(18:55):
Microbome that's making all ofthose B vitamins and the TCA
cycles working and all that, youhave this level of efficiency
where I mean I guess everybody'shappy and so You're not getting
that feed me Seymour signal allthe time that's telling you to
eat.
And I know I think sometimes Imean you talk so much about
(19:17):
Ruderite, and of course we have.
We have lactobacillus Ruderitein our formula and I love that
bug, but I, you know, wonder ifthat's not some of the driver
there too.
William Davis, MD (19:28):
Yeah, I bet you're right.
You know it's my suspicion thatthe reasons why mostly lack the
silts gas or I two strains ofgas, or I like the 2055 and the
BNR 17 and, of course, ruderiteI suspect that there's changes
in body composition due to thethat is, a reduction, waste
circumference or cross sexual CTor MRI reduction in visceral
(19:49):
fat area.
I'm gonna bet you it's exactlywhat you did and that is the
reduction in endotoxemia.
So that can be.
I think that'll prove over time.
We need you and I need betterevidence, but I'm gonna predict
that that is the fundamentalunderlying process that allows
the Specifically target loss ofabdominal visceral fat, because
(20:10):
I think we're seeing it.
So it'll be interesting infuture if you do any body
composition work.
This, even something simplelike a waste circumference,
because we're, as we're seeingwith just the Ruderite and some
other non-microbial Microbialagrees with your formulation
with a hundred percent reductionLPS, I'm gonna bet you it's
even bigger.
Martha Carlin (20:28):
So that's, that's a great idea because we're
actually gonna be runninganother Sugarship challenge in
October, probably starting atthe end of October or well,
we're trying to decide because,you know, when you go into the
holidays not too many peoplewant to be in a sugar challenge,
but it's actually a time whenyou do need a lot of support to
stay away from all the sugar.
(20:50):
But maybe we can add a wastecircumference measurement or you
know something like that to themetrics we ask people to try to
put together for that, one ofthe other good news things we
have.
So I think it was about fiveyears ago.
We filed a patent that coversmore than the sugarship formula
(21:11):
it covers.
It's a patent for probioticsand method of use and it's
basically our consortium conceptof putting microbes together to
produce a, you know, specificoutput.
And so we had filed a patentfor the production of mannitol,
reduced glutathione butyrate,some of these other things and
(21:33):
the potential treatment ofParkinson's disease and diabetes
and some other things.
And slowly but surely that hasmoved along, and actually at the
beginning of October wereceived notice from the patent
office that they are rewardingthe patent, so Congratulations.
So we're in the process of, youknow paying our fees and
(21:54):
getting all of that done, butthat was pretty exciting for us
as well.
William Davis, MD (21:59):
That is terrific.
I know you think a lot aboutParkinson's disease.
Has your thinking changed orevolved in any way in the last
year?
Martha Carlin (22:05):
It.
Actually it has evolved quite abit and it's evolved in a
couple of ways.
One actually came from one ofyour inner circle people, my
husband.
So when he started taking thesugar shift back in 2017,
there's a measurement called theUPDR score.
That measures kind of howadvanced somebody is and at that
time his score was at 35.
(22:27):
And you know he had was like 15years.
In a year after taking thesugar shift, his score had
dropped to a 20, 1920.
And it stabilized there forfour years.
But then at the end of 2021, hehad COVID and he had a very bad
bout of COVID and there's someresearch showing that low
(22:48):
Bifidobacteria is associatedwith poor outcomes in COVID and
low Bifidobacteria is also anindicator in Parkinson's.
And one of your people contacthe had some long COVID symptoms.
He was really struggling to getback to where he was before.
And one of your peoplecontacted me who had had a
neighbor.
She made your yogurt with mysugar shift because her neighbor
(23:13):
got very severe Parkinson'slike symptoms after he got COVID
and so she made it like withstarting with 10 capsules and
then with your doubling, I meanyou're getting up to like 800
billion CFUs or something in theback and I started doing that
and I mean we did a few, we didsome other things along the way,
but when he started doing thatyogurt and I was alternating
(23:36):
that with the Rudora, hisimprovement really kind of
accelerated, so that thatchanged my mind quite a bit.
But then the other thing Istarted looking at is actually
fasting, so the opposite ofputting anything in the pipe.
And John started doingsomething called the if you're
familiar with the research ofBalter Longo and the prolon fast
(23:58):
mimicking diet.
He started doing a fastmimicking diet about every five
weeks and always at the fifthday of that diet he's always at
his very best.
Well, in Parkinson's autophagywhich is for your listeners, if
they don't know that's the kindof the eating up of the damaged
(24:18):
cells and that happens fasterduring fasting than if you're
eating all the time.
It doesn't happen.
And in Parkinson's autophagy isreally not working properly.
So you know there's definitelysomething to that.
And in the last month I actuallyreceived a phone call from a
gentleman with Parkinson's whoI've communicated with him some
(24:40):
over the last several years onmy, my personal blog.
He said don't you want to knowhow I cured myself?
And so I had a phone call withhim and I mean and I'm not
telling people to run out and dothis and I'm still getting a
little more details andinformation about how he went
about it but he did a.
He did a very long fast and atthe end of that fast he went in
(25:04):
to see his doctors and he hadmore than Parkinson's wrong with
him.
He had some kidney issues andsome other things.
And you know, his doctor said tohim like what have you?
And he said, can you do it formy other patients?
And he said, well, I could, butif I, you know, if you started
doing that for your patients,you probably lose your license.
And so we're actually lookingat I've talked to a small group
(25:29):
of people.
I have a little guest cabinhere on my farm that can
accommodate three couples or,you know, three individuals, and
we're looking at doing inJanuary a 30 day fast where you
know we will take some bloodmeasurements and have some
tracking and and look at that asa what that may do along the
(25:51):
way.
And if you think about if thereare pathogens in the GI tract,
when you stop putting food inthere, you're going to stop
feeding them and you know,eventually they may just totally
drop out of the niche thatthey've taken over.
William Davis, MD (26:05):
And that's what this guy with presumed
remission did.
Yeah, oh, very interesting,very interesting.
Martha Carlin (26:12):
It takes about 30 days for your mitochondria to
turn over.
So I think you know I'm justsort of picking that as an
arbitrary number, but now I knowyou introduced the antibiotic
antidote.
William Davis, MD (26:24):
Could you give us the rationale for that
formulation?
Martha Carlin (26:27):
Sure, actually, that the idea for that came
probably about I think it wasabout four, four years ago.
There was a study that came outof the Weitzman Institute in
Israel.
What they showed was an11-strain mixture of probiotic
organisms.
I ultimately found a product inIsrael that it looked like it
(26:49):
probably was that product, butthey were looking at it, as in a
study for people who had takenantibiotics, and they found that
it was actually detrimental.
And of course I got the paperand was looking at it and I was
talking to Raul and Raul saidwell, I would never put all
(27:10):
these organisms together becauseit's going to make the whole
system way too acidic and thenyou're not going to be able to
repopulate.
He's like you need to dosomething that's more balanced,
that enables kind of the wholesystem to flourish again.
And so you know, we Raoul'sbrain went away and said, okay,
(27:31):
here's how I would do it.
And then we put it into ourBioFlux computational model and
tweaked it a little bit and cameout with antibiotic antidote
and that was our concept.
But we really didn't bring it tothe market until it was a
couple of years later, one of myadvisors, steve Cosmi, who's a
fermentation chemist, his mother, who's in her 80s, had
(27:55):
appendicitis and had to have herappendix removed and then she
got sepsis and had to be on IVantibiotics for a month.
And he called me up and he said,martha, when are you going to
make that antibiotic antidote?
And I said, well, you know, letme look at what I have in my
strain inventory, like maybe Icould make a small batch of it.
(28:17):
And so we looked and we had,you know, we had all but two
strains we needed.
And so we called our supplierand ordered some inventory and
we made a small batch, hismother's.
I mean, she has a review on thewebsite and she calls me all
the time and tells me how muchshe loves it.
And he just laughed becausehe'd been in the probiotics
(28:41):
industry for 20 years andtelling his mother how great
probiotics she was.
Listen to him.
And now she thinks theantibiotic antidote and
biodequest is the best thingsince Brad.
William Davis, MD (28:54):
So how about the simple slumber formulation?
How do you come to that mixture?
Martha Carlin (29:00):
Well, we just knew so many people have sleep
problems and you know I had alsobeen looking at tryptophan
metabolism and how that'sinvolved in a lot of
dysregulation in the microbiome,and so that was another one
where I mean, actually all theseideas came, raul and I sat one
(29:22):
week in our laboratory with thewhiteboard and we kind of mapped
out, I think, about 25 or 30problems that people have Either
, you know, they're not makingthe vitamins right in their gut
or they've got sleep problems,or they have this vitamin
problem, or you know they theydon't have a good immune system
or sugar metabolism.
(29:43):
And we sort of mapped all ofthat out and mapped out the
different microbes and what weespecially Raul but I also had
some textbooks on what are thecapabilities of all these
different microbes.
And then he went away andcogitated for 30, 45 days and
came back with, you know, thisconcoction of all the different
(30:08):
formulas that we had, and thenwe we had our computational
model and we were able to kindof plug and play those.
So we've got 25 differentformulas that of course you know
we haven't brought them all tomarket.
You know we have some for hotflashes.
We even prototyped one forsomebody who was interested in a
formula using probiotics tohelp with opioid addiction.
(30:32):
I mean that would be a prettynovel approach.
But shoot, anything that couldhelp with that would be amazing.
But the one that we have slatednext for coming out is called
Perfect Peace, and that's more.
You know mood and sleepregulation, mood and depression,
or, you know, just leveling outthe mood swings.
William Davis, MD (30:53):
So do you have an idea what the next year
holds for you?
Martha Carlin (30:57):
Well.
So I mean the next year, wereally would like to get the the
perfect piece out, and I thinkI also.
We have an electrolyte, anelectrolyte probiotic blend that
we have also been working on,so we'd like to get both of
those out and really just getmore of the word out on.
I mean, sugar shift is by farour best-selling product because
(31:21):
it's just a tremendous formulafor overall metabolic health,
and what we see so much today ispeople with problems with
metabolic health, and it kind ofunderlies all the other little
downstream things or biggerdownstream things.
You know, if you can get thatmetabolic health in good shape,
(31:42):
then everything else is gonnawork better, you're gonna sleep
better, you're gonna have moreenergy, you're gonna be happier.
William Davis, MD (31:49):
And, as you know, you provided A sugar shift
for 20 of my followers who arenon diabetic and agreed to do
fingers take blood glucose atthe start and then daily for a
month, and I was so impressedmore 9.8 milligrams per
deciliter reduction over thefour weeks, which in a non
diabetic, non pre diabeticpopulation is Absolutely huge.
(32:12):
That is on a par with aprescription medication.
But of course, the sugar shiftis not a medication, doesn't
come with side effects.
It comes with ancillarybenefits, unlike, say, a drug
you take to reduce blood sugar.
So I think sugar shift has thepotential to completely change
the landscape of how Diabetes ismanaged and how people can
(32:33):
prevent diabetes.
You know, I'm gonna bet youthere's even a age reversing
effect and waist shrinkingeffect because of the reduction
in insulin resistance that'snecessary to see a drop in
glucose of that magnitude.
So that's a spectacular outcome.
Martha Carlin (32:47):
Well, I, you know we'd like to do more studies
and again we're gonna haveanother sugar shift challenge,
the the big challenge.
You know.
For you you've got a tight,close-knit group.
You know your people willactually follow up and do all
the data.
The last time we did it we had200 people and I think about 25
of them actually stuck withDoing the reporting throughout
(33:11):
the period.
So we're still kind of trying tofigure out if there's a better
way to Get people to measure onething or another, and of course
, most people don't want tomeasure blood sugar.
So that's never much fun.
But you know, in my ownpersonal experience I mean I
take sure shift and I Do aketogenic diet and so I have a
(33:32):
keto mojo and If I don't take it, versus when I do take it
before I like when I take myevening dose, if I remember to
take my evening Sugar Shift, myblood sugar is always about five
or ten points lower the next,more than it would be if I
didn't take it.
And I mean it just makes sensebecause it's Eating up those
(33:53):
sugars and turning it intomannitol, which is doesn't spike
your blood sugar.
So it's kind of just aboutbasic biochemistry.
William Davis, MD (34:02):
Well, martha, you are a flurry of interesting
activity, so thanks as always.
Martha Carlin (34:06):
coming back on any closing comments, Well, I
mean, I just I'd like to say athank you to you for all the
education you do for people onthe micro bone and, you know,
for being that the kind ofglobal ambassador for
lactobacillus rhodii which youknow we love that microbe to.
(34:27):
It's not in every one of ourformulas, but you know, I just
love how you're an evangelistfor, for gut health and for ways
for people to Measure andunderstand what's going on in
their gut.
And we didn't even talk aboutsebo today, but that's.
You know there's a bigconnection to sebo methane
hydrogen sulfide in Parkinson's.
(34:47):
So, you know, anybody who'slistening to this, who is
interested in learning moreabout that, should listen to
some of your talks about how touse the food marble and and
looking at sebo and addressingsebo, because I think that's
also an Undernot-aligned driverin Parkinson's disease as well.
William Davis, MD (35:06):
I will post, of course, links and discount
codes and such for all thebiodequest products in the show
notes.
So so we'll send it to yoursite, because why are they doing
incredible work?
I'm very proud of what you andRowell are are accomplishing.
Martha Carlin (35:20):
Well, we appreciate it and I'm I am very
fortunate to have Rowell because, as you know, he's he's one of
a kind who is like a walkingencyclopedia of microbes.
William Davis, MD (35:32):
Thank you, Martha.
Martha Carlin (35:33):
Thank you, Bill.
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