May 19, 2023 • 29 mins
Alison shares the importance of mentoring others, including people from a different demographic – not just because mentors benefit and learn from their mentees, but also because hiring leaders are requesting this. She also discusses how to cultivate a network – and where the magic is. Alison talks about recent trends in recruiting, what makes candidates stand out . . . and what makes hiring leaders stand out, plus the one area of personal development candidates are not focusing on enough.
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Episode Transcript
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Lan Elliott (00:01):
Hello, and welcome to D E I Advisors, an Arizona
nonprofit dedicated toempowering personal success.
And today we have a wonderfulguest advisor with us, Alison
Harrigan, who is senior clientpartner at Korn Ferry.
And if you don't know KornFerry, they are the largest
global recruiting firm, andAlison covers hospitality,
(00:22):
leisure, and travel for KornFerry.
So welcome, Alison.
Thank you.
So glad to have you here.
Alison and I have had the chanceto work together on some
searches in the past, so I'mreally happy to have her here.
And Alison, you are one of theyoungest Korn Ferry senior
client partners.
So you've had incredible careerup to this point already.
(00:43):
Can you share some of theinflection points of your career
and was there a particularfactor that contributed to your
success?
Alison Harrigan (00:51):
Yeah.
I think that there were threemajor decisions I made that
really impacted my careeroverall.
So the first one was choosing togo to hospitality school in the
first place.
And I think I was one of therare high schoolers that had
this.
Intuition that I, I alreadyloved travel.
I loved hotels.
(01:11):
I loved people.
I really wanted to work in anindustry that centered on
people.
And to me that was either gonnamedical school or this wonderful
industry of hospitality.
And I chose hospitality and thatwas obviously an incredible
experience.
That was a launchpad for therest of my career.
When I was in hospitalityschool, my first internship was
with the Ritz Carlton in HalfMoon Bay, which is a property
(01:34):
here near San Francisco.
I was the assistant to the leadwedding planner for a summer.
We worked on, I think, 70weddings in three months.
And I really fell in love withthe Ritz Carlton brand and with
luxury hospitality and theservice standards and the
tradition and the culture thatRitz Carlton brings.
And so that influenced me to mysecond major decision, which was
(01:56):
after I graduated to join theRitz Carlton.
I was recruited by a wonderfulmentor of mine named John Herns
to join the Ritz-CarltonResidential Division.
And and, I still had such anadmiration and love for the
brand.
And then after working for fiveyears in Colorado with the
Ritz-Carlton with in luxury realestate at large, I made the
(02:17):
decision to join Korn Ferry,which is the third major
inflection point.
And and Korn Ferry, there was amentor of mine in the mountains
who suggested executive search,and he said, you are good at
these kind of skills.
Maybe you should look at this.
Other career that would takeadvantage of those same types of
skills.
And that's how I found my way toexecutive search.
(02:37):
I interviewed with multiplefirms and, chose to go with
Ferry, which is the largesttalent advisory firm in the
world.
So I've with Ferry for the lastnot almost eight years exactly.
I've had the honor and theopportunity to work on over 250
C-suite or executive levelsearches in the hospital,
hospitality, travel and leisureindustry in that time.
(03:00):
And it's been a wonderful ride.
I feel so honored to be able todo the work that I do every day
and to work with the clientsthat I'm able to work with, like
you.
Lan Elliott (03:09):
Thank you.
Thank you.
You mentioned some of the skillsthat your mentor thought would
contribute to being successfulin executive search.
Can you share what those were?
Alison Harrigan (03:19):
Yeah.
And I think it was such animportant lesson because what
that mentor was able to see was,Hey, you are good at, and some
of the things you said was,thinking through a problem in
all levels of complexity.
Not just stopping at what theactual problem was itself, but
saying, why is it that you needthis?
Or Why is it that you want this?
He saw that I was I was good atlistening and influencing
(03:40):
others.
I think he saw that I had apassion for the hospitality
industry.
And he was able to make that hehimself was an executive that
had been recruited in the past.
He understood the executivesearch field.
But the overall lesson, I thinkwas that just because you
haven't done the job beforedoesn't mean that you can't do
it in the future.
And that if you can look at someof these transferable skill
(04:02):
sets, and we call that sometimesskill-based hiring, you can, you
can find a new career, a newavenue that actually doesn't
feel that different from whatyou were doing before because it
takes advantage of the sameskills that.
You mentioned you asked like thethings that have contributed to
success, and I don't know ifI've been successful, but I
think a couple things havehelped me, and one of them is
never forgetting kind of theservice mentality that is
(04:24):
embedded in you when you workfor a company like Ritz-Carlton.
And there's so many of the, Istill have my.
Credo card, which I don't know,what this from but it's a card
that, when you're a Ritz Carltonemployee, you carry around in
your pocket with the RitzCarlton values.
And so many of those values canapply to anything.
Anticipating and fulfilling theexpress and unexpressed wishes
(04:46):
and needs of guests.
Or the genuine care and comfortof guests.
All of those are things that Istill apply every day and I
think have really helped me.
And then I think the secondthing that I think about every
day is this quote that I readthat was that said something
like, a person's success in lifeas measured by the amount of
difficult conversations they'rewilling to have.
(05:07):
Or like a person, success beingmeasured by the amount of
difficult conversations they'rewilling to have.
And I think that comes in acouple of like different ways
for me.
One is obviously, we, every daywe're telling people difficult
news, they didn't get the job,or, going a different direction
or they're not gonna get theoffer that they want.
Or, the other way that comesinto play is again, really going
back to.
(05:28):
Getting to the root of theproblem.
And I know you mentioned thistoo, in, in your podcast
interview with David Kong, butreally thinking through up a
problem overall.
And when our clients come to usand they say something like, we
wanna hire a CFO and we'd likeit to be a female.
Not just saying, okay, check onefemale CFO coming right up and
(05:52):
really saying why is it that youfeel that you need a female for
this role?
Do you think that there's adiversity issue in your company?
What do you think a female wouldbring to this role?
What other skills does thisperson need in this role?
And really going deeper toexplore the entire company's
dynamics instead of juststopping at that one problem.
So the service mentality, havingdifficult conversations.
(06:13):
I think those are two thingsthat have really guided me.
Throughout the last throughoutmy career.
Lan Elliott (06:19):
That's really wonderful.
And I love the Ritz Carltoncredo, which I think a lot of
people in the industry willknow, but it always resonated
with me, ladies and gentlemen,certainly.
Yeah, that's right.
Yeah.
And I love that.
And I actually just a quote theother day about listening, and
it was that listening isn'tabout listening to formulate an
answer.
It's listening to hear thethings that.
(06:41):
Aren't being said.
So I thought that was a reallyinteresting way of talking about
it.
But listening is such an ininteresting skill that I think
not many people talk about it.
Some people have definitelytalked about it on this podcast
as being an advantage.
So thank
Alison Harrigan (06:55):
you.
Yes, 100%.
And maybe you'll talk about thata little bit later, but I think
that ties into self-awarenessand empathy and a lot of other
things.
And listening is at the root ofall of that.
Lan Elliott (07:05):
Absolutely.
I wanted to move over to talkingabout developing a network,
because the hospitality industryis really a relationship
industry.
A lot of people actually stay inthe industry, which is a bit
different than other industriesI've seen, so they tend to stay
here once they find it theirwhole career.
You and I found it early inschool.
We knew we wanted to do thatbefore college, but a strong
(07:28):
network is really important forwhat you do.
How have you built your networkand how do you do it in a way
that suits your personality?
Alison Harrigan (07:36):
Yeah.
There's a couple things I wouldsay about networking, both from
my own experience and fromobserving, how candidates move
through these searches at thesenior executive level.
One is I would really stress theimportance of networking within
your own company.
I've, on this podcast, I'veheard so many people say, I'm an
introvert.
I hate walking into that room ofpeople that I don't know.
(07:57):
And trust me, I think thatthere's very few people who
really enjoy that experience ofwalking into a room of people
they've never met before andhaving to introduce themselves.
So a really great way to startnetworking is within your own
organization.
And unless you work with acompany of five people, There's
an, there's a way to f to firstmeet new people within your own
(08:17):
company.
I think the second thing tothink of, and I this came to
mind when people were talkingabout kind of the stress that
comes with that network, theAlice or the NYU networking
reception is that, cultivatingyour network takes a lot of time
and you have to plant that seed.
You have to water it, it has togrow.
What, when you walk into thatnetworking reception, you're
(08:39):
really just planting the initialseed and you shouldn't put so
much pressure on yourself orexpectation to have this earth
shattering interaction at thatone reception.
That's just the seed planning.
What really the magic is in thefollow up and the multiple
conversations.
I think you said, You don't, Arelationship is formed after
meeting in person twice, and Ithink that's huge.
No one's nothing.
(09:00):
Earth shattering is gonna comefrom that, or very rarely.
I think we talked about oneexception.
It's gonna come from that firstinitial interaction.
But the magic happens in thatfollow up overall.
And then I think the third thingI would say is that networking
is absolutely taking all shapesand sizes now.
It's no longer the golf, theyacht club.
The cigar bar afterwards.
I think there are other waysthat it's happening and that you
(09:22):
can happen for you.
A huge thing actually even to meis LinkedIn, I think it is
Impactful to see the way thatpeople interact with each other,
with their colleaguescelebrating their colleagues'
successes, commenting on eachother's posts on LinkedIn.
And it's a whole different wayto view how different
interactions are happening.
I think we've all had theexperience where we see someone
comment on a post and we'relike, oh, I didn't even know
(09:43):
that person knew that person.
And I think it's just a reallyaccessible way for a lot of
people to.
To network.
Lan Elliott (09:51):
Yeah.
And it's been a great way, Ireally engaged more with
LinkedIn.
LinkedIn once we started doing de i advisors, but to support
people and lift other people up.
It's just been such a wonderfulmedium to do that.
I'm curious if recruiters willgo and look and see what
people's posts are.
Alison Harrigan (10:09):
Of course.
Yep.
Absolutely.
And I wanna see that you areposting other, like supporting
other people saying, hoorayabout the new job, or, Great
awesome news on the New Deal, orI think that's fantastic.
Now it's not a, it's not a dingagainst you if you're not active
on LinkedIn, but but I thinkit's really wonderful to see and
it's a sign that you areinfluential and involved and in
(10:29):
the community.
Lan Elliott (10:30):
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's a great, that's great wayto put it.
So along those lines, one of thethings that you are finding now
you had mentioned that'simportant to your clients is
whether candidates have mentees,if they're bringing other people
along.
Can you share more about that?
Is that interest recent inhiring leaders?
And if so, why?
Alison Harrigan (10:51):
It's such a, it's such an interesting trend
and I think a lot of it comesout of the last few years where
retention has an engagement, hasreally become a massive.
Issue, or at least topic for alot of our clients, and they're
really thinking about how theybest retain talent.
And so what that ends upaffecting is them when they're
thinking about hiring a newleader, especially someone who's
(11:13):
gonna be playing a reallyprominent high profile role in
the organization.
What is the proof that personhas been able to build
followership build, be a leader,build employee engagement?
And how is that person beyondjust management, leadership,
been a mentor to others?
So we're seeing clients, acouple things.
A ask for references of peoplethat either maybe you've
(11:34):
mentored or just of your directreports.
And the second thing, we'veeven, we've seen clients a
couple times, and I love thisquestion is saying, who have you
mentored that doesn't look likeyou?
And and I think that's a great,I think it's a question that
stops a lot of people in theirtracks and I wouldn't say it's
every client that's asking thatquestion in an interview, but
(11:54):
it's very provoking when youthink about it.
Especially, yeah.
I think.
That's huge right now is theimportance of being a mentor to
others.
Lan Elliott (12:04):
Yeah, I remember when I interviewed Stephanie
Leonard and she mentioned one ofthe key skills she looks for is
if her leaders are bringingother people along and helping
to develop other people on theirteam.
That was a really key skill.
So I think it was reallyinteresting that you mentioned.
That this is something thatother people are asking about,
especially people who don't looklike you.
(12:25):
Because yeah that's somethingdifferent that we haven't really
focused on very much in theindustry until recently.
Alison Harrigan (12:31):
Not everyone can change, their demographic or
what they look like.
But what they can do is supportothers that aren't, that don't
look like them.
And so I think if they're,sometimes we've gotten reference
lists back from candidates.
They have 10 references, boardmembers, direct reports
supervisors, and they're all thesame.
Demographic.
Yeah.
(12:52):
And that's a red flag toeveryone involved.
And so I think it's, thinkingabout that reference list and
thinking who in your networkmaybe doesn't look exactly like
you?
Is important.
Yeah.
And
Lan Elliott (13:05):
I think another piece to that is the part of,
especially if you're a woman orfrom an underrepresented group,
the leaders that you might wantto have as mentors may not look
like you.
So I spend a lot of time tryingto find mentors that look like
me, but there are a lot ofwonderful mentors that are out
there, been mentors to me thatdon't look like me.
So I think just expanding thatyour aperture, if you're seeking
(13:28):
someone as well, I think is.
Creates more opportunities.
Absolutely.
Along the lines of recenttrends, can you share maybe some
of the trends that you'reseeing?
I know that David interviewedRodica, who you work with
closely, and she shared a lot ofgreat.
Information about what'shappening in the search process,
(13:50):
but I love getting another pointof view, a millennial
recruiter's point of view.
If you'll, so I'd love to hearfrom your perspective, what are
some of the observations and keytrends you're seeing right now?
Alison Harrigan (14:01):
Yeah, and I think RA's interview was I think
it was like December or Januarywhere we were just coming out of
this very employee focusedmarket.
Some of that has shifted to be alittle bit more, employer
focused.
But a lot of the behaviors ofcandidates from, really largely
2022, a little bit of the end of2021, where we saw such a frenzy
(14:22):
in the market, a lot of thosebehaviors have stayed.
So one of those is that, We seecandidates more than ever
wanting to do an extreme amountof diligence on the companies
that are hiring them.
And we see some of our clientsor the companies being wow,
that's a lot of information thatthis person is asking for.
But really I think it's great.
(14:43):
I think it's the candidates arediligencing their future
employers, just the way thatany, private equity firm or
investor would diligence acompany or an asset.
And I think that should beexpected and It's fantastic and
we're, recruiters as Radius asour formidable competitors are
all here to help facilitate thatprocess.
I think one of the things thatwe've seen, as we look at the
relocation or location generalhas been a huge topic of
(15:06):
discussion in most of oursearches.
We've done about 76 searchessince really exactly three years
ago when we say around the startof the pandemic.
And for 50 of those 76 searches,Location has been a huge.
Factor in the ultimate decision.
And by that the person beingable to relocate or meet the
demand, the requirements forrelocation for the role.
(15:28):
And I think with that, thetakeaway from that is you, there
are, you can significantlyaccelerate your career if you
might be willing to relocate,especially to a place that might
be a little bit less desirable.
Although relocation in generalright now is just.
It's difficult.
And I think that it's, there'sobviously, we are narrowing it
down to the best and mostqualified candidates, but that
(15:49):
is still a topic at the end ofthe day, and most of our clients
for their senior teams arelooking for their candidates to
relocate.
From a millennial perspective, Ithink, I live here in San
Francisco.
A lot of my friends work intech.
Job changes every few years canbe common.
I think hospitality is a littlebit more conventional than other
industries in the fact that theyreally wanna, most of our
(16:10):
clients are looking at resumesand there's a red flag that goes
up.
If the candidate has hadmultiple jobs where they've been
in that job for less than threeto four years and so I would say
that, we're moving in adifferent direction.
We're moving more towardsacceptance and maybe shorter
stints, but overall at large, itstill presents as a red flag.
When I started at Korn Ferry asan associate, the prevailing
(16:31):
wisdom at the time was that youcouldn't present a candidate to
a client.
If they had two jobs of lessthan one year or less than two
years each two jobs, less thantwo years each.
That's changing across theboard.
But I think hospitality is stilla little bit conventional.
You need to be there three tofour years to have an impact.
I think I think that some of thevery, very kind of niche trends
(16:54):
that we're seeing, we haven't,the, there's been a a
significant lack of executivedevelopment investment.
Acquisitions roles for the lasteight months, I would say
reflective of the, slowertransaction market overall right
now.
So anything that's transactionrelated, we've seen less of
those roles in the last sevenmonths than we have.
(17:16):
Generally in that same timeperiod.
Lan Elliott (17:19):
And then I suspect when the capital markets open up
and you can get debt, there'llbe probably a frenzy of people
getting back into deals and thenlooking for transaction
executives at that point.
100.
Alison Harrigan (17:29):
Yeah, exactly.
I think so too.
Yeah.
Lan Elliott (17:32):
So let's talk a little bit about, you had
mentioned that candidates arenow asking for a lot of
information about companies.
What makes a hiring leader standout or a company stand out?
Everyone's looking for greattalent right now from the
perspective of a hiring leader.
What advantages.
(17:53):
Would an interviewer be lookingfor what key attributes
Alison Harrigan (17:56):
would?
Yeah, so I, I can kinda take thecontext of what feedback I get
from candidates after theinterview process that maybe
makes them not wanna continue ina process or make them cool off
on a job that's exciting to themto begin with.
The biggest one is present.
I can't tell you how many timescandidates had come back and
said, it looked like theinterviewer was multitasking, or
he picked up his phone two orthree times while he was, he or
(18:19):
she was interviewing me.
And that's obviously not afantastic experience.
And then it doesn't even need tobe the main hiring manager.
If it's anyone in the interviewprocess that kind of presents as
uninterested or not presentthat's a problem.
I think it's probably in thatsituation, if you're dealing
with an urgent matter, it's atough day.
It's almost better to justannounce that at the beginning
of the call and to have theinterviewee really perceive that
(18:41):
you're uninterested in them.
So I think that's a huge somefeedback that we often get from
candidates about hiring leaders.
I think that one of the waysthat hiring leaders in general
have been able to reallycultivate a diverse slate of
talent too is returning to thatskills-based hiring approach
(19:03):
that we talked about at thebeginning, which is, looking at
if you are trying to hire for arole, you don't have the
diversity that you're lookingfor, you wanna create a more
diverse slate, or even you justwanna find new talent.
So look at what the mostcritical skills are in the role
and think deeply about whatother.
Positions or roles you can findthose critical skills within.
(19:25):
And I think that's a greatmethod to find better talent no
matter what.
It's a great way to bring talentfrom other industries into
hospitality.
It's a great way to diversifythe slate overall.
And then I think the third isjust to be open to that
diligence thing that I mentionedearlier is that don't be alarmed
by it.
Don't be alarmed if candidatesare referencing you.
As the hiring leader that'stheir they're being smart about
(19:48):
their decision making.
Lan Elliott (19:50):
Makes sense.
Dorothy Dowling said in herinterview with David Kong, one
of the things that she lives byis to choose your boss
carefully.
Alison Harrigan (20:01):
100.
And I think, there's, one of thethings I think about a lot is if
you have two jobs that are equaland you're trying to decide to
always pick the more ambitiousboss, and there's a, it's a
double edged sword.
You don't wanna necessarily picksomebody who's.
Who's so ambitious that they'renot gonna have time to support
and lead you.
But more times than not, if youcan work for somebody who's
(20:23):
ambitious and maybe I'm being alittle bit of self-reflective
right now, they, and you workwell with them, they're gonna
bring you along with them.
And that's, from my ownexperience, but that's also just
from hearing people's careerstories myself and saying, wow,
there are a number of people outthere that got to where they did
because they.
They stuck with somebody who whoha, who had big ambitions.
Lan Elliott (20:46):
Yeah, absolutely.
We've seen that a lot in theindustry.
So that, that's really greatadvice.
Let's switch to the other side.
What makes a candidate stand outto people who are looking to
hire?
Alison Harrigan (20:57):
Yeah I think all the things that we, that
you're taught from day one,being prepared, reading the 10
k, if that's what it is beingright about issues affecting the
industry, knowing the backgroundof the person that is
interviewing you.
All those things are When you'reat a interviewing for a C-suite
role or SCP level position, or aboard position, those are table
stakes.
I think, and I hope I don'tmisuse this, but I think gin Lee
(21:19):
in your interview calledsomething the Korean word for
kind of having this light inyour eyes, or I was, I, I've
heard the word before and I'vealso heard it used as like
general self-awareness.
And I think that is just huge.
Empathy, situational awareness,emotional awareness.
All of those things are, can beapparent in just a one hour,
(21:39):
one-on-one interview.
I think RA said in herinterview, Reading the room,
reading the zoom, making surepeople are with you, making sure
you're pausing to make surepeople are still listening and
that you're resonating.
I think the number one piece offeedback that we get from
interviewers about why theydon't want to move a candidate
forward is the person just wehad 30 minutes slated for the
interview, 45 minutes, and theytalked the whole time.
(22:02):
And yes, it, of course the, it'san interview.
The candidate's supposed to talka lot, but they didn't even
pause to check if I was stillfollowing them.
And that's a huge red flag.
So I think that kind of like theNCI is interesting because it's
a little bit about the situsituational awareness, emotional
awareness, but also about, Ithink he mentioned just like the
light the eye contact, thebrightness in your eyes are
(22:22):
integrity.
And I think that's part of ittoo.
The other thing that makescandidates stand out, and this
is readily available in, this isa common kind of trait in
hospitality, less so than otherindustries, is range.
And I actually remember talkingabout this a little bit with
when we were doing a lot of workwith I H G, is that in
hospitality more so than otherindustries.
(22:43):
Many of the executive leadersneed to have range in that they
have to flip from one momenttalking to.
Hourly staff member, ahousekeeper, a front desk person
to an investor, to a foreigninvestor, and they ha and they
have to go minute to minute backand forth, and they could be
going straight outta theirmeeting with Blackstone into
leading a housekeeping lineup.
And having that ability to havethat range, I think is, we see
(23:06):
all the kind of, Celebratedleaders in our industry having
that agile style.
So I think that's really
Lan Elliott (23:12):
important.
Yeah, it's always wonderful whenyou see leaders who can connect
with people at all differentlevels, right?
They treat everybody the samewith empathy and care, and that
really comes across and it justbuilds this great amount of
loyalty to
Alison Harrigan (23:27):
those people.
Absolutely.
And people know people, not justthe people you're interacting
with, but the people around younotice when you can do that.
Lan Elliott (23:34):
Absolutely.
Let me ask you this, is theresomething that you don't see
enough candidates focus on fortheir personal development but
is really valued by people whoare looking to hire right now?
Alison Harrigan (23:46):
Yeah, I think I think that we see a lot of
candidates get mired in, I'm adeveloper.
I'm only gonna do developmentroles, or I'm an operator.
I'm only gonna do operatingroles.
I'm a marketer, whatever it is.
And we see this a lot insegments.
I've own, I've worked at RitzCarlton, our four seasons for 10
years.
I wouldn't even dream of takinga job with, an upscale or
(24:08):
midscale brand.
And I think that flexibility,that lack of flexibility holds a
lot of people back.
And I think we would, if youlook across the industry and
some of the people that haveascended quickly in their
careers, it's because they werewilling to be a little bit
flexible about their next move.
Lan Elliott (24:26):
Yeah, ma makes sense.
Greg Canei talked about it inhis interview.
He talked about the differencebetween being a rockstar in your
area and being an all-star in alot of areas.
Alison Harrigan (24:37):
Yes.
Ex and Greg's a great example ofthat too.
Yes.
He's been able to do so manythings throughout his career in
different areas, and maybe otherpeople would've said, no, I'm
gonna stay in my land.
I'm gonna focus, I'm gonna be aspecialist.
I love
Lan Elliott (24:52):
that.
Let me switch gears a little bitand talk about a recent study
that came out.
It's not so recent, it's 2016.
Harvard Business Reviewpublished a study that was
titled, if There's Only OneWoman in Your Candidate Pool,
there's Statistically no chanceShe'll be hired.
And that study, I think you canfigure out what the gist of that
(25:14):
study was, but that studyresonates.
It's similar to some otherstudies we've seen real recently
about how you need at least twowomen on a board to really have
meaningful impact or two or morewomen on the hiring committee
to, to really make significantchange.
Could you share some thoughts onthis and.
(25:36):
Having, for example, one womanor underrepresented person in a
final candidate P pool, that'snot enough in order for that
person to get hired.
Alison Harrigan (25:46):
Yeah.
I think the bottom line of bothof these studies is that, yeah,
one, one is on a two might notbe enough.
More is better.
Now that being said, if you arein a situation where you can't
have, for whatever reason, therecan't be more in the candidate
pool or there can't be more inthe hiring committee, hopefully
that you don't get to thatpoint.
But if you do, Then it's, ithelps to have an objective
(26:07):
person in the group that canhold everyone accountable for
the goals that you set out toachieve or for, to hold people
accountable to not fall intothese cognitive biases of.
That you've mentioned.
And if that's not possible tohave this objective third party,
whether it's a, a recruiter orsomebody else that's sitting in
that meeting, sometimes the C HR O or an HR leader can play
(26:30):
that role.
It helps to just have theawareness that these cognitive
biases.
Exist, and I'm so glad that, we,you and I spend so much time
talking about that study.
I hope that study the the secondone and others like that
continue to make the roundsbecause the more that you
realize it's happening the morethat somebody in the room can
stop themselves and say, are wefalling pre to this bias.
Lan Elliott (26:54):
As I suspected, we are getting really close on
time, so I could have kepttalking with you and we had a
long conversation before as wewere prepping for this, but
there's so much greatinformation.
Can you share one last piece ofadvice with us, Alison, and
keeping in mind that the missionof d e I advisors is around
(27:15):
empowering personal success,perhaps.
One final bit of advice forwomen or underrepresented groups
who have high careeraspirations.
How can they really maximize andmake the most out of their
career?
Alison Harrigan (27:28):
Yeah.
A couple things.
I think the service mentality Ithink can serve anyone in their
career.
I think at the end of the day,the idea of fulfilling the
express and unexpressed wishesand needs of guests or clients
or counterparties or whatever,your employees, whatever it is,
that comes back to empathy.
Being able to put yourself inthat person's shoes and saying,
if I was that person, what wouldI need next?
(27:50):
Whether it's the guest that'swalking out, it's raining, and
you having the umbrella readyfor them when they walk outside,
or whether it's an employee whoyou anticipate their needs by
saying, let's talk about yourcareer before they ever have to
come to you and say, I wannatalk about what my next step is.
I think that empathy and that,That, going back to the service
mentality of these likefulfilling the, the the wants
(28:11):
and needs of who you're workingwith and around is really
important.
I think the second thing Imentioned is to keep an open
mind about your next role.
To keep in mind, like to reallythink about, okay, I love doing
these three things.
I'm good at doing these threethings.
Where could I apply that to asimilar role?
And figuring out how toarticulate that when you're in a
job process is really important.
And I've seen a lot ofsuccessful people be able to do
(28:31):
that really well.
And then I think at the end ofthe day, I think, Finding good
mentors and being a mentoryourself is anyone can be a
mentor.
If, if you are just starting outyour career, you can maybe be a
mentor to those who are sale incollege.
If you're at the midpoint inyour career, you can be a mentor
to those.
So I think, and there's so muchto be learned from being a
mentor to others.
Just as being mentored yourself.
(28:53):
So I think that's reallyimportant too.
Lan Elliott (28:55):
That's really wonderful advice.
Thank you.
It's so rewarding, I think, tobe a mentor and to help other
people.
And you're right, there's asmuch learning going both ways
when you're mentoring someone.
So thank you so much.
That was really wonderfuladvice.
Thank you, Alison for being on de I advisors today and for our
audience.
(29:15):
I hope if you've enjoyed thisinterview with Alison, you will
tune in to other interviews.
You can find them on our websiteat d e i advisors.org, and a
number of the wonderfulinterviews that we've actually
referenced on the show today canbe found there.
So I hope you'll join us forfuture interviews and thank you
so much, Alison.
(29:36):
Thank you.
Hello, and welcome to D E I Advisors, an Arizona
nonprofit dedicated toempowering personal success.
And today we have a wonderfulguest advisor with us, Alison
Harrigan, who is senior clientpartner at Korn Ferry.
And if you don't know KornFerry, they are the largest
global recruiting firm, andAlison covers hospitality,
(00:22):
leisure, and travel for KornFerry.
So welcome, Alison.
Thank you.
So glad to have you here.
Alison and I have had the chanceto work together on some
searches in the past, so I'mreally happy to have her here.
And Alison, you are one of theyoungest Korn Ferry senior
client partners.
So you've had incredible careerup to this point already.
(00:43):
Can you share some of theinflection points of your career
and was there a particularfactor that contributed to your
success?
Alison Harrigan (00:51):
Yeah.
I think that there were threemajor decisions I made that
really impacted my careeroverall.
So the first one was choosing togo to hospitality school in the
first place.
And I think I was one of therare high schoolers that had
this.
Intuition that I, I alreadyloved travel.
I loved hotels.
(01:11):
I loved people.
I really wanted to work in anindustry that centered on
people.
And to me that was either gonnamedical school or this wonderful
industry of hospitality.
And I chose hospitality and thatwas obviously an incredible
experience.
That was a launchpad for therest of my career.
When I was in hospitalityschool, my first internship was
with the Ritz Carlton in HalfMoon Bay, which is a property
(01:34):
here near San Francisco.
I was the assistant to the leadwedding planner for a summer.
We worked on, I think, 70weddings in three months.
And I really fell in love withthe Ritz Carlton brand and with
luxury hospitality and theservice standards and the
tradition and the culture thatRitz Carlton brings.
And so that influenced me to mysecond major decision, which was
(01:56):
after I graduated to join theRitz Carlton.
I was recruited by a wonderfulmentor of mine named John Herns
to join the Ritz-CarltonResidential Division.
And and, I still had such anadmiration and love for the
brand.
And then after working for fiveyears in Colorado with the
Ritz-Carlton with in luxury realestate at large, I made the
(02:17):
decision to join Korn Ferry,which is the third major
inflection point.
And and Korn Ferry, there was amentor of mine in the mountains
who suggested executive search,and he said, you are good at
these kind of skills.
Maybe you should look at this.
Other career that would takeadvantage of those same types of
skills.
And that's how I found my way toexecutive search.
(02:37):
I interviewed with multiplefirms and, chose to go with
Ferry, which is the largesttalent advisory firm in the
world.
So I've with Ferry for the lastnot almost eight years exactly.
I've had the honor and theopportunity to work on over 250
C-suite or executive levelsearches in the hospital,
hospitality, travel and leisureindustry in that time.
(03:00):
And it's been a wonderful ride.
I feel so honored to be able todo the work that I do every day
and to work with the clientsthat I'm able to work with, like
you.
Lan Elliott (03:09):
Thank you.
Thank you.
You mentioned some of the skillsthat your mentor thought would
contribute to being successfulin executive search.
Can you share what those were?
Alison Harrigan (03:19):
Yeah.
And I think it was such animportant lesson because what
that mentor was able to see was,Hey, you are good at, and some
of the things you said was,thinking through a problem in
all levels of complexity.
Not just stopping at what theactual problem was itself, but
saying, why is it that you needthis?
Or Why is it that you want this?
He saw that I was I was good atlistening and influencing
(03:40):
others.
I think he saw that I had apassion for the hospitality
industry.
And he was able to make that hehimself was an executive that
had been recruited in the past.
He understood the executivesearch field.
But the overall lesson, I thinkwas that just because you
haven't done the job beforedoesn't mean that you can't do
it in the future.
And that if you can look at someof these transferable skill
(04:02):
sets, and we call that sometimesskill-based hiring, you can, you
can find a new career, a newavenue that actually doesn't
feel that different from whatyou were doing before because it
takes advantage of the sameskills that.
You mentioned you asked like thethings that have contributed to
success, and I don't know ifI've been successful, but I
think a couple things havehelped me, and one of them is
never forgetting kind of theservice mentality that is
(04:24):
embedded in you when you workfor a company like Ritz-Carlton.
And there's so many of the, Istill have my.
Credo card, which I don't know,what this from but it's a card
that, when you're a Ritz Carltonemployee, you carry around in
your pocket with the RitzCarlton values.
And so many of those values canapply to anything.
Anticipating and fulfilling theexpress and unexpressed wishes
(04:46):
and needs of guests.
Or the genuine care and comfortof guests.
All of those are things that Istill apply every day and I
think have really helped me.
And then I think the secondthing that I think about every
day is this quote that I readthat was that said something
like, a person's success in lifeas measured by the amount of
difficult conversations they'rewilling to have.
(05:07):
Or like a person, success beingmeasured by the amount of
difficult conversations they'rewilling to have.
And I think that comes in acouple of like different ways
for me.
One is obviously, we, every daywe're telling people difficult
news, they didn't get the job,or, going a different direction
or they're not gonna get theoffer that they want.
Or, the other way that comesinto play is again, really going
back to.
(05:28):
Getting to the root of theproblem.
And I know you mentioned thistoo, in, in your podcast
interview with David Kong, butreally thinking through up a
problem overall.
And when our clients come to usand they say something like, we
wanna hire a CFO and we'd likeit to be a female.
Not just saying, okay, check onefemale CFO coming right up and
(05:52):
really saying why is it that youfeel that you need a female for
this role?
Do you think that there's adiversity issue in your company?
What do you think a female wouldbring to this role?
What other skills does thisperson need in this role?
And really going deeper toexplore the entire company's
dynamics instead of juststopping at that one problem.
So the service mentality, havingdifficult conversations.
(06:13):
I think those are two thingsthat have really guided me.
Throughout the last throughoutmy career.
Lan Elliott (06:19):
That's really wonderful.
And I love the Ritz Carltoncredo, which I think a lot of
people in the industry willknow, but it always resonated
with me, ladies and gentlemen,certainly.
Yeah, that's right.
Yeah.
And I love that.
And I actually just a quote theother day about listening, and
it was that listening isn'tabout listening to formulate an
answer.
It's listening to hear thethings that.
(06:41):
Aren't being said.
So I thought that was a reallyinteresting way of talking about
it.
But listening is such an ininteresting skill that I think
not many people talk about it.
Some people have definitelytalked about it on this podcast
as being an advantage.
So thank
Alison Harrigan (06:55):
you.
Yes, 100%.
And maybe you'll talk about thata little bit later, but I think
that ties into self-awarenessand empathy and a lot of other
things.
And listening is at the root ofall of that.
Lan Elliott (07:05):
Absolutely.
I wanted to move over to talkingabout developing a network,
because the hospitality industryis really a relationship
industry.
A lot of people actually stay inthe industry, which is a bit
different than other industriesI've seen, so they tend to stay
here once they find it theirwhole career.
You and I found it early inschool.
We knew we wanted to do thatbefore college, but a strong
(07:28):
network is really important forwhat you do.
How have you built your networkand how do you do it in a way
that suits your personality?
Alison Harrigan (07:36):
Yeah.
There's a couple things I wouldsay about networking, both from
my own experience and fromobserving, how candidates move
through these searches at thesenior executive level.
One is I would really stress theimportance of networking within
your own company.
I've, on this podcast, I'veheard so many people say, I'm an
introvert.
I hate walking into that room ofpeople that I don't know.
(07:57):
And trust me, I think thatthere's very few people who
really enjoy that experience ofwalking into a room of people
they've never met before andhaving to introduce themselves.
So a really great way to startnetworking is within your own
organization.
And unless you work with acompany of five people, There's
an, there's a way to f to firstmeet new people within your own
(08:17):
company.
I think the second thing tothink of, and I this came to
mind when people were talkingabout kind of the stress that
comes with that network, theAlice or the NYU networking
reception is that, cultivatingyour network takes a lot of time
and you have to plant that seed.
You have to water it, it has togrow.
What, when you walk into thatnetworking reception, you're
(08:39):
really just planting the initialseed and you shouldn't put so
much pressure on yourself orexpectation to have this earth
shattering interaction at thatone reception.
That's just the seed planning.
What really the magic is in thefollow up and the multiple
conversations.
I think you said, You don't, Arelationship is formed after
meeting in person twice, and Ithink that's huge.
No one's nothing.
(09:00):
Earth shattering is gonna comefrom that, or very rarely.
I think we talked about oneexception.
It's gonna come from that firstinitial interaction.
But the magic happens in thatfollow up overall.
And then I think the third thingI would say is that networking
is absolutely taking all shapesand sizes now.
It's no longer the golf, theyacht club.
The cigar bar afterwards.
I think there are other waysthat it's happening and that you
(09:22):
can happen for you.
A huge thing actually even to meis LinkedIn, I think it is
Impactful to see the way thatpeople interact with each other,
with their colleaguescelebrating their colleagues'
successes, commenting on eachother's posts on LinkedIn.
And it's a whole different wayto view how different
interactions are happening.
I think we've all had theexperience where we see someone
comment on a post and we'relike, oh, I didn't even know
(09:43):
that person knew that person.
And I think it's just a reallyaccessible way for a lot of
people to.
To network.
Lan Elliott (09:51):
Yeah.
And it's been a great way, Ireally engaged more with
LinkedIn.
LinkedIn once we started doing de i advisors, but to support
people and lift other people up.
It's just been such a wonderfulmedium to do that.
I'm curious if recruiters willgo and look and see what
people's posts are.
Alison Harrigan (10:09):
Of course.
Yep.
Absolutely.
And I wanna see that you areposting other, like supporting
other people saying, hoorayabout the new job, or, Great
awesome news on the New Deal, orI think that's fantastic.
Now it's not a, it's not a dingagainst you if you're not active
on LinkedIn, but but I thinkit's really wonderful to see and
it's a sign that you areinfluential and involved and in
(10:29):
the community.
Lan Elliott (10:30):
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's a great, that's great wayto put it.
So along those lines, one of thethings that you are finding now
you had mentioned that'simportant to your clients is
whether candidates have mentees,if they're bringing other people
along.
Can you share more about that?
Is that interest recent inhiring leaders?
And if so, why?
Alison Harrigan (10:51):
It's such a, it's such an interesting trend
and I think a lot of it comesout of the last few years where
retention has an engagement, hasreally become a massive.
Issue, or at least topic for alot of our clients, and they're
really thinking about how theybest retain talent.
And so what that ends upaffecting is them when they're
thinking about hiring a newleader, especially someone who's
(11:13):
gonna be playing a reallyprominent high profile role in
the organization.
What is the proof that personhas been able to build
followership build, be a leader,build employee engagement?
And how is that person beyondjust management, leadership,
been a mentor to others?
So we're seeing clients, acouple things.
A ask for references of peoplethat either maybe you've
(11:34):
mentored or just of your directreports.
And the second thing, we'veeven, we've seen clients a
couple times, and I love thisquestion is saying, who have you
mentored that doesn't look likeyou?
And and I think that's a great,I think it's a question that
stops a lot of people in theirtracks and I wouldn't say it's
every client that's asking thatquestion in an interview, but
(11:54):
it's very provoking when youthink about it.
Especially, yeah.
I think.
That's huge right now is theimportance of being a mentor to
others.
Lan Elliott (12:04):
Yeah, I remember when I interviewed Stephanie
Leonard and she mentioned one ofthe key skills she looks for is
if her leaders are bringingother people along and helping
to develop other people on theirteam.
That was a really key skill.
So I think it was reallyinteresting that you mentioned.
That this is something thatother people are asking about,
especially people who don't looklike you.
(12:25):
Because yeah that's somethingdifferent that we haven't really
focused on very much in theindustry until recently.
Alison Harrigan (12:31):
Not everyone can change, their demographic or
what they look like.
But what they can do is supportothers that aren't, that don't
look like them.
And so I think if they're,sometimes we've gotten reference
lists back from candidates.
They have 10 references, boardmembers, direct reports
supervisors, and they're all thesame.
Demographic.
Yeah.
(12:52):
And that's a red flag toeveryone involved.
And so I think it's, thinkingabout that reference list and
thinking who in your networkmaybe doesn't look exactly like
you?
Is important.
Yeah.
And
Lan Elliott (13:05):
I think another piece to that is the part of,
especially if you're a woman orfrom an underrepresented group,
the leaders that you might wantto have as mentors may not look
like you.
So I spend a lot of time tryingto find mentors that look like
me, but there are a lot ofwonderful mentors that are out
there, been mentors to me thatdon't look like me.
So I think just expanding thatyour aperture, if you're seeking
(13:28):
someone as well, I think is.
Creates more opportunities.
Absolutely.
Along the lines of recenttrends, can you share maybe some
of the trends that you'reseeing?
I know that David interviewedRodica, who you work with
closely, and she shared a lot ofgreat.
Information about what'shappening in the search process,
(13:50):
but I love getting another pointof view, a millennial
recruiter's point of view.
If you'll, so I'd love to hearfrom your perspective, what are
some of the observations and keytrends you're seeing right now?
Alison Harrigan (14:01):
Yeah, and I think RA's interview was I think
it was like December or Januarywhere we were just coming out of
this very employee focusedmarket.
Some of that has shifted to be alittle bit more, employer
focused.
But a lot of the behaviors ofcandidates from, really largely
2022, a little bit of the end of2021, where we saw such a frenzy
(14:22):
in the market, a lot of thosebehaviors have stayed.
So one of those is that, We seecandidates more than ever
wanting to do an extreme amountof diligence on the companies
that are hiring them.
And we see some of our clientsor the companies being wow,
that's a lot of information thatthis person is asking for.
But really I think it's great.
(14:43):
I think it's the candidates arediligencing their future
employers, just the way thatany, private equity firm or
investor would diligence acompany or an asset.
And I think that should beexpected and It's fantastic and
we're, recruiters as Radius asour formidable competitors are
all here to help facilitate thatprocess.
I think one of the things thatwe've seen, as we look at the
relocation or location generalhas been a huge topic of
(15:06):
discussion in most of oursearches.
We've done about 76 searchessince really exactly three years
ago when we say around the startof the pandemic.
And for 50 of those 76 searches,Location has been a huge.
Factor in the ultimate decision.
And by that the person beingable to relocate or meet the
demand, the requirements forrelocation for the role.
(15:28):
And I think with that, thetakeaway from that is you, there
are, you can significantlyaccelerate your career if you
might be willing to relocate,especially to a place that might
be a little bit less desirable.
Although relocation in generalright now is just.
It's difficult.
And I think that it's, there'sobviously, we are narrowing it
down to the best and mostqualified candidates, but that
(15:49):
is still a topic at the end ofthe day, and most of our clients
for their senior teams arelooking for their candidates to
relocate.
From a millennial perspective, Ithink, I live here in San
Francisco.
A lot of my friends work intech.
Job changes every few years canbe common.
I think hospitality is a littlebit more conventional than other
industries in the fact that theyreally wanna, most of our
(16:10):
clients are looking at resumesand there's a red flag that goes
up.
If the candidate has hadmultiple jobs where they've been
in that job for less than threeto four years and so I would say
that, we're moving in adifferent direction.
We're moving more towardsacceptance and maybe shorter
stints, but overall at large, itstill presents as a red flag.
When I started at Korn Ferry asan associate, the prevailing
(16:31):
wisdom at the time was that youcouldn't present a candidate to
a client.
If they had two jobs of lessthan one year or less than two
years each two jobs, less thantwo years each.
That's changing across theboard.
But I think hospitality is stilla little bit conventional.
You need to be there three tofour years to have an impact.
I think I think that some of thevery, very kind of niche trends
(16:54):
that we're seeing, we haven't,the, there's been a a
significant lack of executivedevelopment investment.
Acquisitions roles for the lasteight months, I would say
reflective of the, slowertransaction market overall right
now.
So anything that's transactionrelated, we've seen less of
those roles in the last sevenmonths than we have.
(17:16):
Generally in that same timeperiod.
Lan Elliott (17:19):
And then I suspect when the capital markets open up
and you can get debt, there'llbe probably a frenzy of people
getting back into deals and thenlooking for transaction
executives at that point.
100.
Alison Harrigan (17:29):
Yeah, exactly.
I think so too.
Yeah.
Lan Elliott (17:32):
So let's talk a little bit about, you had
mentioned that candidates arenow asking for a lot of
information about companies.
What makes a hiring leader standout or a company stand out?
Everyone's looking for greattalent right now from the
perspective of a hiring leader.
What advantages.
(17:53):
Would an interviewer be lookingfor what key attributes
Alison Harrigan (17:56):
would?
Yeah, so I, I can kinda take thecontext of what feedback I get
from candidates after theinterview process that maybe
makes them not wanna continue ina process or make them cool off
on a job that's exciting to themto begin with.
The biggest one is present.
I can't tell you how many timescandidates had come back and
said, it looked like theinterviewer was multitasking, or
he picked up his phone two orthree times while he was, he or
(18:19):
she was interviewing me.
And that's obviously not afantastic experience.
And then it doesn't even need tobe the main hiring manager.
If it's anyone in the interviewprocess that kind of presents as
uninterested or not presentthat's a problem.
I think it's probably in thatsituation, if you're dealing
with an urgent matter, it's atough day.
It's almost better to justannounce that at the beginning
of the call and to have theinterviewee really perceive that
(18:41):
you're uninterested in them.
So I think that's a huge somefeedback that we often get from
candidates about hiring leaders.
I think that one of the waysthat hiring leaders in general
have been able to reallycultivate a diverse slate of
talent too is returning to thatskills-based hiring approach
(19:03):
that we talked about at thebeginning, which is, looking at
if you are trying to hire for arole, you don't have the
diversity that you're lookingfor, you wanna create a more
diverse slate, or even you justwanna find new talent.
So look at what the mostcritical skills are in the role
and think deeply about whatother.
Positions or roles you can findthose critical skills within.
(19:25):
And I think that's a greatmethod to find better talent no
matter what.
It's a great way to bring talentfrom other industries into
hospitality.
It's a great way to diversifythe slate overall.
And then I think the third isjust to be open to that
diligence thing that I mentionedearlier is that don't be alarmed
by it.
Don't be alarmed if candidatesare referencing you.
As the hiring leader that'stheir they're being smart about
(19:48):
their decision making.
Lan Elliott (19:50):
Makes sense.
Dorothy Dowling said in herinterview with David Kong, one
of the things that she lives byis to choose your boss
carefully.
Alison Harrigan (20:01):
100.
And I think, there's, one of thethings I think about a lot is if
you have two jobs that are equaland you're trying to decide to
always pick the more ambitiousboss, and there's a, it's a
double edged sword.
You don't wanna necessarily picksomebody who's.
Who's so ambitious that they'renot gonna have time to support
and lead you.
But more times than not, if youcan work for somebody who's
(20:23):
ambitious and maybe I'm being alittle bit of self-reflective
right now, they, and you workwell with them, they're gonna
bring you along with them.
And that's, from my ownexperience, but that's also just
from hearing people's careerstories myself and saying, wow,
there are a number of people outthere that got to where they did
because they.
They stuck with somebody who whoha, who had big ambitions.
Lan Elliott (20:46):
Yeah, absolutely.
We've seen that a lot in theindustry.
So that, that's really greatadvice.
Let's switch to the other side.
What makes a candidate stand outto people who are looking to
hire?
Alison Harrigan (20:57):
Yeah I think all the things that we, that
you're taught from day one,being prepared, reading the 10
k, if that's what it is beingright about issues affecting the
industry, knowing the backgroundof the person that is
interviewing you.
All those things are When you'reat a interviewing for a C-suite
role or SCP level position, or aboard position, those are table
stakes.
I think, and I hope I don'tmisuse this, but I think gin Lee
(21:19):
in your interview calledsomething the Korean word for
kind of having this light inyour eyes, or I was, I, I've
heard the word before and I'vealso heard it used as like
general self-awareness.
And I think that is just huge.
Empathy, situational awareness,emotional awareness.
All of those things are, can beapparent in just a one hour,
(21:39):
one-on-one interview.
I think RA said in herinterview, Reading the room,
reading the zoom, making surepeople are with you, making sure
you're pausing to make surepeople are still listening and
that you're resonating.
I think the number one piece offeedback that we get from
interviewers about why theydon't want to move a candidate
forward is the person just wehad 30 minutes slated for the
interview, 45 minutes, and theytalked the whole time.
(22:02):
And yes, it, of course the, it'san interview.
The candidate's supposed to talka lot, but they didn't even
pause to check if I was stillfollowing them.
And that's a huge red flag.
So I think that kind of like theNCI is interesting because it's
a little bit about the situsituational awareness, emotional
awareness, but also about, Ithink he mentioned just like the
light the eye contact, thebrightness in your eyes are
(22:22):
integrity.
And I think that's part of ittoo.
The other thing that makescandidates stand out, and this
is readily available in, this isa common kind of trait in
hospitality, less so than otherindustries, is range.
And I actually remember talkingabout this a little bit with
when we were doing a lot of workwith I H G, is that in
hospitality more so than otherindustries.
(22:43):
Many of the executive leadersneed to have range in that they
have to flip from one momenttalking to.
Hourly staff member, ahousekeeper, a front desk person
to an investor, to a foreigninvestor, and they ha and they
have to go minute to minute backand forth, and they could be
going straight outta theirmeeting with Blackstone into
leading a housekeeping lineup.
And having that ability to havethat range, I think is, we see
(23:06):
all the kind of, Celebratedleaders in our industry having
that agile style.
So I think that's really
Lan Elliott (23:12):
important.
Yeah, it's always wonderful whenyou see leaders who can connect
with people at all differentlevels, right?
They treat everybody the samewith empathy and care, and that
really comes across and it justbuilds this great amount of
loyalty to
Alison Harrigan (23:27):
those people.
Absolutely.
And people know people, not justthe people you're interacting
with, but the people around younotice when you can do that.
Lan Elliott (23:34):
Absolutely.
Let me ask you this, is theresomething that you don't see
enough candidates focus on fortheir personal development but
is really valued by people whoare looking to hire right now?
Alison Harrigan (23:46):
Yeah, I think I think that we see a lot of
candidates get mired in, I'm adeveloper.
I'm only gonna do developmentroles, or I'm an operator.
I'm only gonna do operatingroles.
I'm a marketer, whatever it is.
And we see this a lot insegments.
I've own, I've worked at RitzCarlton, our four seasons for 10
years.
I wouldn't even dream of takinga job with, an upscale or
(24:08):
midscale brand.
And I think that flexibility,that lack of flexibility holds a
lot of people back.
And I think we would, if youlook across the industry and
some of the people that haveascended quickly in their
careers, it's because they werewilling to be a little bit
flexible about their next move.
Lan Elliott (24:26):
Yeah, ma makes sense.
Greg Canei talked about it inhis interview.
He talked about the differencebetween being a rockstar in your
area and being an all-star in alot of areas.
Alison Harrigan (24:37):
Yes.
Ex and Greg's a great example ofthat too.
Yes.
He's been able to do so manythings throughout his career in
different areas, and maybe otherpeople would've said, no, I'm
gonna stay in my land.
I'm gonna focus, I'm gonna be aspecialist.
I love
Lan Elliott (24:52):
that.
Let me switch gears a little bitand talk about a recent study
that came out.
It's not so recent, it's 2016.
Harvard Business Reviewpublished a study that was
titled, if There's Only OneWoman in Your Candidate Pool,
there's Statistically no chanceShe'll be hired.
And that study, I think you canfigure out what the gist of that
(25:14):
study was, but that studyresonates.
It's similar to some otherstudies we've seen real recently
about how you need at least twowomen on a board to really have
meaningful impact or two or morewomen on the hiring committee
to, to really make significantchange.
Could you share some thoughts onthis and.
(25:36):
Having, for example, one womanor underrepresented person in a
final candidate P pool, that'snot enough in order for that
person to get hired.
Alison Harrigan (25:46):
Yeah.
I think the bottom line of bothof these studies is that, yeah,
one, one is on a two might notbe enough.
More is better.
Now that being said, if you arein a situation where you can't
have, for whatever reason, therecan't be more in the candidate
pool or there can't be more inthe hiring committee, hopefully
that you don't get to thatpoint.
But if you do, Then it's, ithelps to have an objective
(26:07):
person in the group that canhold everyone accountable for
the goals that you set out toachieve or for, to hold people
accountable to not fall intothese cognitive biases of.
That you've mentioned.
And if that's not possible tohave this objective third party,
whether it's a, a recruiter orsomebody else that's sitting in
that meeting, sometimes the C HR O or an HR leader can play
(26:30):
that role.
It helps to just have theawareness that these cognitive
biases.
Exist, and I'm so glad that, we,you and I spend so much time
talking about that study.
I hope that study the the secondone and others like that
continue to make the roundsbecause the more that you
realize it's happening the morethat somebody in the room can
stop themselves and say, are wefalling pre to this bias.
Lan Elliott (26:54):
As I suspected, we are getting really close on
time, so I could have kepttalking with you and we had a
long conversation before as wewere prepping for this, but
there's so much greatinformation.
Can you share one last piece ofadvice with us, Alison, and
keeping in mind that the missionof d e I advisors is around
(27:15):
empowering personal success,perhaps.
One final bit of advice forwomen or underrepresented groups
who have high careeraspirations.
How can they really maximize andmake the most out of their
career?
Alison Harrigan (27:28):
Yeah.
A couple things.
I think the service mentality Ithink can serve anyone in their
career.
I think at the end of the day,the idea of fulfilling the
express and unexpressed wishesand needs of guests or clients
or counterparties or whatever,your employees, whatever it is,
that comes back to empathy.
Being able to put yourself inthat person's shoes and saying,
if I was that person, what wouldI need next?
(27:50):
Whether it's the guest that'swalking out, it's raining, and
you having the umbrella readyfor them when they walk outside,
or whether it's an employee whoyou anticipate their needs by
saying, let's talk about yourcareer before they ever have to
come to you and say, I wannatalk about what my next step is.
I think that empathy and that,That, going back to the service
mentality of these likefulfilling the, the the wants
(28:11):
and needs of who you're workingwith and around is really
important.
I think the second thing Imentioned is to keep an open
mind about your next role.
To keep in mind, like to reallythink about, okay, I love doing
these three things.
I'm good at doing these threethings.
Where could I apply that to asimilar role?
And figuring out how toarticulate that when you're in a
job process is really important.
And I've seen a lot ofsuccessful people be able to do
(28:31):
that really well.
And then I think at the end ofthe day, I think, Finding good
mentors and being a mentoryourself is anyone can be a
mentor.
If, if you are just starting outyour career, you can maybe be a
mentor to those who are sale incollege.
If you're at the midpoint inyour career, you can be a mentor
to those.
So I think, and there's so muchto be learned from being a
mentor to others.
Just as being mentored yourself.
(28:53):
So I think that's reallyimportant too.
Lan Elliott (28:55):
That's really wonderful advice.
Thank you.
It's so rewarding, I think, tobe a mentor and to help other
people.
And you're right, there's asmuch learning going both ways
when you're mentoring someone.
So thank you so much.
That was really wonderfuladvice.
Thank you, Alison for being on de I advisors today and for our
audience.
(29:15):
I hope if you've enjoyed thisinterview with Alison, you will
tune in to other interviews.
You can find them on our websiteat d e i advisors.org, and a
number of the wonderfulinterviews that we've actually
referenced on the show today canbe found there.
So I hope you'll join us forfuture interviews and thank you
so much, Alison.
(29:36):
Thank you.
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