A decorated combat pilot and officer, attorney, and consultant, Jay offers a unique leadership perspective. He shares his career journey, including the importance of a great team, and why it’s critical leaders take responsibility for ensuring team members have a sense of belonging. He describes his approach to risks and how tackling challenges creates value. He details how he selects his personal board of directors, and the best way to find a sponsor/champion.
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Episode Transcript
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Lan Elliott (00:03):
Hello and welcome to D e I advisors in Arizona,
nonprofit dedicated toempowering personal success.
My name is Lan Elliot on behalfof d e I advisors, and today I'm
really thrilled to have JayCaifa, the Chief Operating
Officer for the Americas, for IH G Hotels and Resorts on our
show.
Welcome,
Jay Caiafa (00:22):
Jay.
Thanks Lan.
Great to see you.
Great to be
Lan Elliott (00:24):
here.
It's great to see you.
Now.
We've had the opportunity towork together.
I think we started at I H G at asimilar time, but you've had a
very fascinating and uniquecareer.
You graduated from the Air ForceAcademy.
You're a decorated Air Force.
I.
Combat pilot and officer.
You're also a licensed attorney.
Having worked at Paul Hastingsfor a number of years, you have
(00:46):
a really unique path toleadership for our industry.
So I'm really excited if youcould please share with our
audience your career journey andsome of the inflection points
that.
That you experienced along theway, and perhaps if there's a
certain factor that contributedto your success?
Jay Caiafa (01:05):
Sure.
Yeah.
When you say it that way, Ithink back and realize that none
of my five year plans have everworked out in any way, shape, or
form.
And I think that's okay.
I think I've had a great careerthat way.
I've learned a lot.
I've met a lot of people.
But you're right, I didn't startoff in the hospitality world.
I started off almost as far awayfrom it as you can get.
When I was a kid, I saw themovie Top Gun.
Obviously the first one.
(01:26):
The original one.
Now people know it again.
And I always wanted to be amilitary pilot.
Obviously Top Gun was a Navything.
I didn't want to be on ships, sothe Air Force seemed like the
right way to go and the AirForce Academy was an incredible
school, a great opportunity.
And so I took a chance and wentthat way.
Absolutely amazing career in theAir Force, but one of the things
that taught me was that nothingthat we have planned is set in
(01:47):
stone.
When I got my wings, it was thebeginning of 2001.
We were flying air shows aroundthe world.
It was a great job for a, 23, 24year old guy being able to fly
around and poke holes in the skyand enjoy life.
And next thing I know I'm flyingover Midtown Manhattan with
trade centers smoldering, tryingto get planes to land.
And then after that, 300 days ayear in the Middle East, flying
(02:10):
combat.
Not at all what we thought wewere signing up for.
Not at all what we had expected.
But I'll tell you, you talkabout an inflection point.
That's one of those moments inmy career, being in the Middle
East, being in some of the worstplaces on earth, but being
surrounded by great teammates.
That I realized that the team isso much more important than just
the job or the place or thelocation.
(02:32):
We had some of my fondestmemories in some of the worst
places on Earth because I lovemy team.
And it was a group of folks thatjust had that bond and we could
get through it and we had a jobto do, but found a way to laugh
and have fun.
But yeah.
So my first inflection point inmy career happened in 2004.
I was actually diagnosed withacid reflex heartburn.
The Air Force hadn't approvedNexium for pilots, and so they
(02:54):
basically gave me a choice offlying a desk for two years or
having an honorable dischargeand going and doing something
else with my life.
And I took door number two,decided to go to law school.
Didn't really know what I wantedto be when I grew up.
So law school seemed like agreat idea.
Really enjoyed my time at DukeLaw School, business School
joint degree.
Knew I didn't wanna be a lawyerforever.
But there was something aboutthat practice of law that I felt
(03:15):
like I had to at least try.
I had to pass a bar, I had to bea lawyer.
I didn't wanna be a litigator.
So actually, I went into yourworld land.
I went on the deal side.
I be went into commercial realestate finance working with
developers and banks, trying tofigure out how to get deals
done.
And I started about a weekbefore Lehman collapsed in 2008,
which was absolutely terribletiming.
(03:36):
But hey, that's life.
My firm laid off a bunch offolks.
I was lucky enough to keep myjob.
But our job changed.
We went from development andbuilding to workouts and
foreclosures and leasing and.
All the things I never reallywanted to do.
But it gave me enough time and Iguess the benefit of being
willing to work pretty hard, Igot to plan in some startups and
(03:57):
I started working with a numberof startups.
I actually ran a biotech startupfor a little while.
Really got the business bug.
Decided that I wanted to followthat, but I also knew that I
didn't really have enoughexperience to be great at it.
Being in the startup taught methat I had a lot to learn.
B School was great, but itwasn't enough.
So I went to probably one of thebest learning laboratories I
(04:17):
could have thought of.
I went to Banning company andbecame a consultant, and
basically for the next threeyears, worked in private equity
mostly Across a number ofdifferent disciplines.
Never worked in the same areatwice.
We did things like creditbureaus.
We did plastic packaging forfruits and vegetables.
We did all these diligences oncompanies you'd never think of,
but it taught me really how tothink through problems, how to
(04:39):
approach something that I didn'tknow the answer to in an
efficient way.
But again, with a team, that'swhat I really missed.
In law.
In law, I was by myself all thetime.
At Bain, you're with a caseteam, so same thing.
You're, you might be workinguntil two in the morning, but
you're working with four otherpeople and you're finding a way
to laugh and have a blast andhave an impact.
But I didn't wanna, I didn'twanna be a consultant for the
(05:00):
rest of my life.
And that's actually what led meto I H G.
I had someone that was workingwith me on an externship to I H
G and they introduced me toRicardo Lopez, who's no longer
with I h G.
But brought me into the strategyworld and I realized that
hospitality was an incredibleplace to really build a career.
Something I think that's gottenlost in the last few years that
people haven't necessarily seen,but there aren't a whole lot of
(05:24):
careers where you look at someof our leaders, That have
started off as GMs Keith, goingfrom a GM all the way up to a
global c e o or some of ourowners who came to this country
with, the money, they could fitin their pockets that now own
dozens of hotels and they'vechanged the generational wealth
for their family incredibly.
And I saw that and I just fellin love with it.
(05:45):
It's a people business.
And it's been it's been a reallyfun ride for the last almost 10
years.
Lan Elliott (05:50):
No, you've had a phenomenal career.
Just in the time that I've knownyou at I h G.
Your trajectory has been reallyincredible, so it's great that
I'm really glad that I had thechance to work with you like
that.
Lemme ask you this.
Oh, thank you.
You have so many wonderfultalents, but was there something
as you were coming up in yourcareer that you thought, you
know what, this is a skill.
(06:10):
I need to hone a little bitbetter, that's going to make me
more successful.
This is something that I need toimprove.
Jay Caiafa (06:17):
Yeah, I think, one of the things in hindsight
reflecting on my career that wasactually probably the most
valuable that people take forgranted was actually the
training I got in law from awriting perspective.
I think that there are so manybrilliant people out there that
just cannot communicateeffectively.
And in business, whether it'shospitality or anywhere else,
(06:37):
being able to understand youraudience and find a way to
connect.
But to also deliver theinformation that you have in a
way that's compelling, that canbe, digested and used was huge.
And in law, actually, it'sprobably one of the only things
that I'm glad that I learnedfrankly, as a recovering
attorney was how to writeeffectively.
(06:57):
Clear, succinct.
I think a lot of folks take thatfor granted, just the
communication side more broadly.
One of the things that I alwaystell people and it's not my own
idea, it's a quote that I'veheard, but they say, if you
can't write it in a sentence,you can't explain it in an hour.
And that's the point that wehave to all get really good at
is how do I take somethingthat's complex and make it
(07:17):
understandable, make itactionable and really have an
impact.
So that's one.
I think the other one that Itell people, especially from a
strategy perspective, you gottalove talking to yourself.
It's this in like intellectualcuriosity, this desire to get
past the question.
And I think so many of us relyon someone else to ask us the
(07:38):
hard questions when we've gottabe asking ourselves that the
whole way through.
If you don't have this likelittle voice on your shoulder
saying why?
Why not that?
Why this?
What's really the problem?
Where's the no?
How do I get past the, no,what's your next objection gonna
be?
So I think that too, that,taking that intellectual
curiosity and turning it intosomething that you can actually
Have an impact with just,pushing yourself to get past the
(08:00):
first answer and then beingwilling to tell your boss, Hey,
I got the answer to yourquestion, but by the way, you
asked me the wrong question,what you should have asked me
was this.
And I also got an answer to thatfor you.
And I think some people justreally stay in the bounds of the
initial question a little bittoo long.
Lan Elliott (08:17):
I think that's so interesting and it's a different
twist.
A lot of people have mentionedcuriosity, but not in that same
way to push past the ba basicquestion and figure it out.
I use it a little bit in, innegotiations when I'm talking to
someone and I ask a question andthey answer.
With something that doesn'tquite fit.
Then I know there's like maybethree more questions I need to
ask until I get to the heart ofthings.
(08:39):
But it, it's funny, I don'ttranslate that to other parts of
my life.
So it's really interesting thatyou've learned to, to apply that
in lots of different ways.
Jay Caiafa (08:46):
I think, especially in, in, in development and
negotiation when you're workingthrough those areas, being able
to really see both sides beforeyou get there.
Makes such a difference, makessuch a difference to be able to
be not only so that you'reprepared, but you're also
empathetic.
You understand why they see itthat way.
It helps you get past the no, ithelps you get to the right
(09:07):
answer.
That works out for both sides.
Lan Elliott (09:09):
Absolutely.
So very true.
Especially in negotiations.
Let's broaden our discussion alittle bit to how you overcome
obstacles in general, how youapproach a problem.
Can you share how you firstprocess it?
What do you do first?
How do you motivate your teamwhen they're tackling a
(09:30):
challenge?
Jay Caiafa (09:31):
Yeah.
I think the first piece ofmotivating yourself and
motivating your team isunderstanding why.
Why are you doing this?
What is the point of thischallenge?
There's plenty challenges thatwe can all take on.
There's obviously not a shortageof challenges in the world.
The question is, why this one?
Why does it matter?
And the reason why I try tothink about that is because I
(09:53):
also want our teams to take onkind of a fail fast mentality.
So the moment they're in thechallenge far enough, and they
realize that the juice isn'tworth the squeeze anymore.
We've gotta fire ourselves.
We've gotta go work on adifferent challenge then and
move through it.
So it's interesting.
I was talking with somebody theother day and we were talking a
little bit about Amazon'sapproach.
To projects in general and atone point, and, regardless of
(10:16):
whether or not you like JeffBezos, good, bad, indifferent,
whatever some of his businessideas have actually been pretty
solid.
And this one in particular Ireally liked.
So what he would have people dois at the start of a project is
instead of going through theentire project and at the end
having comms or communicationswrite your PR statement and the
one page FAQ on why thismatters, he wanted everybody to
(10:37):
do that at the beginning of theproject.
So before you even start, writeyour PR B bullets, what is this
gonna accomplish?
What does solving this mean tous?
What does it mean?
In our case, what does it meanto our owners?
What does it mean to our guests?
What does it mean to ourshareholders?
Is that PR bullet compelling?
Because if it's not, you shouldprobably just stop there, right?
Because chances are, it's nevergonna be as compelling as when
(11:00):
we start.
But really getting people to thewhy does this work matter?
Where does it fit in?
What are we trying toaccomplish?
And then to me, I've alwayslooked at challenges as a fun.
Problem to solve, right?
Anybody can do the easy work.
No, nobody's celebrated or puton a statue for doing the easy
thing.
They're celebrated for doing thehard things.
That's where all the value is.
That's where I think we reallymake a difference in our
(11:20):
careers.
So framing it less is achallenge, is more as an
opportunity.
How can we solve this?
And then there's lots oftactical ways that you go about
trying to figure out how am Igonna approach this.
One of the things I learned inmy time in consulting that I
think has served really well issomething that Bain calls answer
first.
Some of the other consultingfirms called something
different.
The Pyramid principle, I thinkis what they call it at
(11:42):
McKenzie, maybe, or bcg.
They'll kill me if I get itwrong.
It doesn't matter, but it's allthe same thing, which is start
with an answer.
The answer doesn't have to beright, but you wanna make your
answer complete enough where asyou go seek to prove out your
answer, whether it's right orwrong, you're gonna find the
right part, right?
And then that helps give yousomething that you can go
(12:03):
actually break into chunks andgo address.
Cuz sometimes the stuff isreally overwhelming.
And then I think the last thingI would say land and this is one
of the things that I love aboutbeing a pilot.
I loved about being inconsulting.
I love about being at I H G.
I never approached challenges bymyself.
It's, I think we all want toaccomplish it by ourselves, but
(12:23):
to me, the best way is to builda team around you that's got a
diverse set of perspectives, adiverse set of experiences that
sees the world in a differentway and will help you break
through some of those thingsthat.
You don't even see half the timeyou're just missing the point.
And so being able to build agreat team, which I think is
what is probably my favoritepart of I h g, is has been huge
(12:45):
in getting through any of thosechallenges, is that we never do
it alone.
I
Lan Elliott (12:49):
love so much about what you said there, first
asking the why are we doing thisand failing fast?
I thought that was a reallygreat concept.
And then switching gears, ifit's not working right, you need
to do that sooner rather thangetting to the end.
And then I also loved having theanswer first, or I think we
called it in high schoolscience, have a hypothesis of
what you're trying to solve for.
Yep.
And it doesn't work out right.
(13:10):
Keep testing against that andthen building a team because no
one person's gonna be.
As powerful as everybody'scollective efforts put together.
Jay Caiafa (13:20):
So no question.
No question.
I love that you're digging backto high school science,
Lan Elliott (13:26):
right?
Yeah.
It said a hypothesis to me.
Jay Caiafa (13:28):
That's right.
No, that's what they call it.
Hypothesis driven hypothesisdriven problem.
Solvings.
Yeah.
Lan Elliott (13:33):
There's a word I haven't used in a few decades.
So moving on to taking risks.
And one of the things I saysometimes when we're working on
difficult challenges, and I'llsay to the team is, this is not
rocket science.
It's not life or death.
We're not doing open heartsurgery, but you've actually
been a combat pilot.
So when we talk about takingrisks, you actually have been in
(13:56):
a situation unlike a lot of us,where it is life or death.
How do you approach takingcalculated risks and is there
anything from your prior rolesthat translate into the business
world?
And maybe could you share anexample of a success and how you
mentally prepared yourself andyour team to take a chance on
(14:16):
something?
Sure.
Jay Caiafa (14:17):
Yeah.
I think, whether in combat or inbusiness, It's always gonna be a
balance of courage and judgment,right?
You can't have one without theother and expect to be
successful.
Maybe you can get lucky, butit's always a balance of being
willing to do somethingcourageous that's outside of
(14:38):
your comfort zone, but alsohaving the judgment to realize
if I jump off my house, it'sprobably gonna end badly for me.
We've gotta put some otherthings into here.
So I think, you know what I'velearned.
Primarily through my time in theAir Force Flying Combat is that
I have to make sure that ifwe're gonna take a risk, number
one, it's worth it.
Number two, I've created anenvironment that has the
(15:01):
psychological safety wherepeople feel comfortable bringing
their whole selves and makingsure that they are willing to
share their perspectives, evenif it's maybe a little bit
scary, right?
Because now we're all operatinga little bit closer to the edge.
I need everybody in that room onthat team to be willing to get
pretty close to the edge withus.
Otherwise, we just don't, wedon't really do it.
(15:24):
But again, it all goes back tothe why are we gonna take this
risk?
It's not just about taking arisk for the sake of taking a
risk but it is about beingwilling to put your hand up and
say, I'd like to give it a shot.
I have confidence in the teamthat I've built and my skillset.
That's the judgment side of it.
To say, let's take a chance onthis.
(15:44):
And you know what?
Failure in the business sense.
I think so many people see thatas a bad word.
It's only a bad word if you'reincapable of succeeding or if
you just fail at the wrongthings too frequently.
But taking a risk on somethingand it falling short done
correctly is not a bad thing.
(16:04):
It's actually a good thing inmany ways.
You get to learn from yourmistakes as opposed to just
wonder.
Would this have ever worked?
But I think you've gotta knowwhat the risk is, right?
So when I get with my team andwe start thinking about what do
we want to do?
We want to try somethingdifferent, we gotta, we're gonna
put this in pilot.
The first thing we ask is whatcan go wrong if we get this
wrong?
(16:25):
We just come out of the box.
We're just wrong.
What does that mean?
How big of a deal is this?
And for a lot of things you'llrealize, you know what, it's
actually not that big of a deal.
So I don't need to get to a 95%confidence level before I press
go.
I just need to get to that 60%confidence level.
But other things, cybersecurity,for example, credit card
(16:46):
security, a lot can go wrong ifwe don't get that right.
If I'm gonna take a risk in thatworld, my confidence level has
to be 98, 90 9% can becatastrophic to people if we're
wrong.
So that kind of balances thedanger and then you can set
people up to, to be comfortablearound that.
In the hospitality world.
There hasn't been a whole lot ofrisks that we've had to take
(17:08):
that were that dangerous.
I think going into it, peopleprobably feel that way.
Launching a new brand, trying todo something like coming outta
covid and removing, full stayover housekeeping.
Like those are things that preCovid none of us would've ever
talked about, right?
We would've never thought thatyou could do that, but you start
calculating what's really therisk if we get this wrong?
What's the benefit if we get itright?
(17:30):
What can this do to help owners?
What can it do to help the teamin order to get, all right, so
let's take a chance figure outwhere the pressure points are.
I think that's, that was one ofthe best parts going through
Covid.
I think it gave us all anopportunity to really question
things and take some risks andgoing through that, if that
makes sense.
Lan Elliott (17:47):
Absolutely.
And I think everyone was goingthrough it together because no
one, not even Mr.
Marriott, who's been in thebusiness for a really long time.
Had experience dealing with whatour industry faced in those
early days of spring 2020 I alsothought it was very interesting
that as an industry we reallycame together and leaned on one
another to, because nobody knew,and leaders were reaching out
(18:11):
across companies to, to ask,what are you doing?
How are you handling it?
Yep.
Jay Caiafa (18:17):
Not just across the companies, I mean across
industries.
The number of phone calls thatwe had with our partners at like
the Cleveland Clinic.
So what do you think of UVlights?
What do you think?
What, how should we handle this?
It's amazing how thosebusinesses that tried to stay
open all started talking to eachother.
And saying what can we borrowfrom each other?
What can we learn?
What's working for you?
It was pretty neat.
(18:38):
It was pretty neat.
Lan Elliott (18:38):
Yeah.
It was, I don't wanna do itagain, but, no, I don't wanna do
it again.
But it was, it's an amazingthing to live through during our
lifetime.
Absolutely.
Let's talk a little bit moreabout, Personal boards of
directors, we've talked aboutthis together.
And how having a personal boardof director can act as your own
personal support system.
(19:00):
So how do you identify who youinclude in your personal board
of directors, and what kinds ofthings do you rely on them for?
Jay Caiafa (19:07):
Yeah, it's a great question.
It's something that's beenthrown around, almost buzzworthy
wordy to people like, oh, who'son your personal board, Rick?
But it, I actually think itreally does matter.
They.
You should plan for it.
The way that I think a companyplans for a board of directors,
right?
When you look at it, you don'twant it to just be friends that
look like you and that thinklike you.
(19:29):
All that does is reinforce yourown personal biases about these
decisions, and it's such amistake.
But instead, thinking aboutpeople who maybe have a
completely different workingstyle than you do are at a
different point in their livesthan you are, have worked in
different industries than youhave.
To me, having a personal boardof people with that diversity
(19:50):
really makes a differencebecause when I come to them in
my life, and many of'em are nowclose personal friends as well.
They didn't all start off thatway, but when you come to them
with, man, we're going through,like during the pandemic, we're
going through all this socialunrest across our country.
I've got a really diverse teamacross my organization.
(20:11):
I'm thinking about talking aboutthis.
What do you, how does that hity'all?
What do you think that feelslike to people?
Am I thinking about this theright way?
Different jobs that we've takenon.
Some of the jobs I've taken onat I H G have been great, but I
took them on with no realexperience in that space.
To your point about takingrisks, I had to.
(20:31):
Talk to me, like how would youdo this?
This is a mini career transitiongoing from strategy into hotel
lifecycle or into the COO role.
Where are the watchouts?
What should I be focused on?
So I think it's really importantto build a board of directors
with people that, number one,care about you as a person,
right?
The, at its core, they have tocare about you.
(20:53):
Number two, are willing to giveyou bad news.
I think so many people pick thefolks that they know will treat
them with kid gloves.
I don't want that on mine.
I want somebody to tell me, Jaythat's nuts.
I don't know why you're thinkingthat, but that's a bad idea.
Don't do that.
Don't do that.
Or, I know you're scared, butyou need to just toughen up and
(21:13):
give it a shot.
You'll be able to do this.
You want folks that are gonnamake you feel a little bit
uncomfortable sometimes.
But that's also why it's reallyimportant to build that trust
and that, you've heard me say ita few times in the way that I
run my teams, but thatpsychological safety, do we, do,
we trust each other enough togive each other real advice,
real feedback, not just easyfeedback.
(21:35):
And it changes.
It changes over time.
It's not like you meet'em all atone meeting.
You use'em for different things.
But I think it's, I think it'ssuper important and a very
underutilized I don't know.
Thing that you can lean on inyour career.
Lan Elliott (21:48):
Absolutely.
Great support system to be ableto have people, to bounce ideas
off of people that you trust,and like you said, people who
will tell it to you straight whoaren't gonna sugarcoat it for
you.
Jay Caiafa (21:57):
As you get more and more senior, you have fewer and
fewer of those people in yourbusiness that are willing to do
that.
Yeah.
You start getting into aposition where it starts
feeling.
Not lonely per se, cuz you'rearound a lot of people, but it's
lonely in the sense that yournumber of peers is starting to
shrink a little bit.
And the decisions that you'remaking are impacting the people
that you would normally go tofor advice right now.
(22:20):
So it helps to find people thatare also just non-judgmental
that there's no, it's a saferoom.
You can talk about thingsopenly.
Absolutely.
Lan Elliott (22:30):
I wanted to switch gears a little bit and talk
about champions, also known assponsors and advocates, because
a lot of times we talk aboutmentors and having a mentor is
wonderful, but having a championto pick one of those three words
is really important.
It's not some it's not somethingI understood early in my career.
(22:51):
But it's really to have thepeople who are gonna speak up on
your behalf when you're not inthe room, when there are
opportunities or promotions thatare out there.
And I know that i h g hasdeveloped a formal sponsorship
program, if I'm not mistaken.
How important is it to findchampions and how do you go
about it if your company doesn'thave a formal program?
Jay Caiafa (23:13):
Yeah, you're right.
It's something I was like, elanI really never contemplated this
idea of champion sponsors.
I, I thought mentor was theoverarching umbrella and it's
really not.
There is a big differencebetween somebody who's willing
to invest time in you.
Versus somebody who's willing toinvest personal credibility in
you.
And they are really verydifferent things.
(23:34):
You're right at I H G I love thefact that we've started to
formalize this.
We have a program called theAscend Program that we launched.
And really this started from ade and I board perspective where
we knew that we had folks thatwere probably under frankly, In
positions in the company wherethey weren't as visible to
(23:55):
folks.
They were underrepresentedacross our company, but super
talented.
And we knew that the best way tostart creating this momentum in
the company for people to dothis was to role model it.
And so that's how we started.
And I was part of the firstcohort of sponsors now in my
second cohort with Ascend.
And it's been fantastic.
(24:16):
But you're right, there's a lotof companies that don't do it.
It's not formalized.
Frankly, even I think justgenerally, I don't know what
it's been like in your life, inyour career, but I find.
That over formalizationsometimes takes away from the
true benefit of being a sponsoror having a champion or an
advocate.
But I think, for me, in mycareer, when I look back and I
think about the folks that havereally championed my career, the
(24:40):
way that I think I kinda heardan echo there for a second,
sorry.
The way that I think you startdeveloping those relationships
is number one, you want to beimpactful for them.
You wanna help them improvetheir, stature and standing as
well.
You wanna build trust with them.
You wanna show them how you canhelp, how you're eager to learn
how you wanna move through.
You wanna be somebody that folksbelieve you will just get stuff
(25:03):
done, you know how to workacross the organization.
You can have impact in otherprojects.
It usually, at least in myexperience, starts small.
If it's not formalized at yourcompany, you don't wake up one
day and say, Hey, land, I'd loveyou to be my champion.
This is the job I want and thisis the next job I want.
Can you please go advocate forme?
(25:23):
It's usually, Hey, I've workedon some projects, we've
overlapped a couple times.
I really like the way you lead.
I really see how you're doingthis.
In many cases they start asmentorships.
But again, I think it alwaysgoes back to.
The best way to have a sponsoror a champion is to give them
something that they can clearlyadvocate behind.
And to me, that always goes backto being able to show impact in
(25:45):
the company, willingness to putin the extra hours sometimes,
cuz some, sometimes you need tosign up for that extra project
to be able to get in front ofthe right people and take that
chance.
Be willing to raise your hand,be willing to take that risk.
But it's just cultivatingrelationships.
It's not I don't know thatthere's a, an obvious playbook
in my mind.
It's try to get involved.
(26:06):
Try to always be helpful, be agood team player.
And as you see people that havethe experience in the areas of
the business that you'reinterested in, or have the tools
on their toolkit that you knowyou don't have yet, or that
you're really eager to learn,you connect and you work
through.
And I think you've gotta bewilling to get outta your
comfort zone too.
(26:27):
One of the funny things that Ithink a lot of people are afraid
to talk about sometimes is whattheir ambitions really are.
And for people to advocate foryou, they need to know that too.
Especially because where youthink your path goes, you may
not be planning it the rightway, right?
(26:47):
You might think this is the nextjob I want, but really, if you
wanna be c e o, these are thethree jobs you're eventually
gonna have to have.
And that one's not one of'em.
So let me help you navigate tothat.
But I've met a lot of peoplethat are I've had to pull out of
them, Hey, someday I want to bean svp.
Someday I want to be a C E O.
Great.
That's great.
We can start with that.
Let's have a conversation aboutwhat that's gonna take.
(27:08):
It might take 10 years, it mighttake 20 years, but let's have a
real conversation about it.
But you've gotta put yourselfout there.
You gotta be willing to put inthat emotional work, I think as
well.
Lan Elliott (27:19):
Yeah, I think that's, I think that's so true,
and I know when I've talked tosome of the people on my team,
when we first started talkingabout where do you wanna go with
your career, I was surprised.
It was a really uncomfortableconversation for a lot of
people.
And I don't know if it wasbecause they hadn't really given
it a lot of thought, or becausethey were scared to say the
words out loud, like it wasgoing to be carved on their
(27:39):
tombstones.
It's, we need something to shootfor and something to help.
Get you towards.
And so how do I help you in thatdirection of, I don't know which
direction you want to go in.
So I think it's so important tobe able to articulate what you
want.
Jay Caiafa (27:54):
Absolutely.
And even if you don't know whatthe job is I see so many people,
I just wanna be a director.
I, I wanna be a vice president.
Okay of what?
In what is it that draws you tothat?
Do you actually understand whatthat is?
Do you realize the amount ofmuck that you get into once you
start getting into some of this,some of these other jobs, do you
realize you're not gonna be ableto do this anymore?
But it's amazing that usuallywhen I have those career
(28:14):
conversations, people talk to meabout what they want to do next,
not about what they want to do.
Yeah.
And it's, I think that's adistinction, especially if
you're building with folks thatare gonna be willing to advocate
for you.
You're building a lifetimerelationship with them.
They don't advocate for one job.
They become part of, maybe partof your board.
(28:36):
They are, they're there for youlong term.
So they can't help you if allyou're thinking about is near
term.
That makes it a lot harder.
Lan Elliott (28:44):
Absolutely.
I wanted to jump into a relatedconversation, which is around
belonging, because in pastinterviews we've talked a lot
about inter inclusive cultures,or D E I.
Initiatives, but you've hadleadership roles in the military
(29:08):
and in business and you'vetalked about the need for team
members to not just feelincluded, but to be, go beyond
that and have a sense of beyondbelonging, which is the new
thing.
I'm starting to hear more, whichis D E I b with belonging.
Can you share more about thatand what are some of the key
things that leaders or managersof teams can do to help their
(29:28):
teams feel like they belong?
Team members.
Yeah,
Jay Caiafa (29:31):
I think it's such an important distinction.
Teams are different when youfeel as if that's where you were
meant to be.
Not that you were just invited,not that you're a part of the
team, but that this is where youwere meant to be.
And in the military, I think oneof the things that you and I
have talked about in the past isI hear a lot of people talk
about, Giving 130% right andfeeling Hey, I've got this
(29:52):
secret reserve where I cansomehow tap into that and give
more than my a hundred percent.
And that's always been one of myleast favorite sayings.
And I'm gonna tie this back tobelonging, I promise.
But the reason why is the momentwe believe that there is
something beyond our capacitythat allows us to somehow plug
into this secret reserve.
It takes the responsibility awayfrom the leaders.
(30:14):
To allow people to be their bestselves.
Because when I think about teamswhere somebody doesn't feel like
they belong, or even worse,doesn't feel like they're
included, one of thesenon-inclusive teams, then they
spend a lot of their energybeing somebody that they're not,
and I don't care who you'retalking to, that does take
(30:34):
energy that takes.
Mental energy, emotional energy,physical energy in a lot of
cases to do that.
So if I'm looking at my teammembers and I need their a
hundred percent right, andthey're spending 30% of that
wearing a mask, trying topretend to be somebody, they're
not even on their best day, I'mgetting a C minus out of them,
(30:56):
right?
And so in the military, the waywe thought about that is if I'm
in an emergency situation, I'vegot a crew and everybody's got a
job, my job is to get them home.
My job is to make sure that theycan all do their job to the best
of their ability.
If I'm panicking and that'staking up 20% of my bandwidth,
that means it's taking up 50% oftheir bandwidth.
(31:17):
And now I've got a, babblingchild helping me.
It can't work.
I've gotta absorb their stress,I've gotta let them fit in.
So in the corporate world, tome, that really becomes part of
this idea of belonging.
If I am sapping your energy.
By forcing you to be in anorganization where you can't
operate the way you are at yourbest because you're stressed
(31:40):
about your kids, because you'restressed about your spouse
because you're worried thatpeople won't accept you because
of, your diversity or your opopinion.
If you create that environment,then nobody's operating at their
capability and as a team you'llnever succeed.
So to me, whenever we talk aboutbuilding teams, we deliberately.
Hire on my teams.
(32:00):
People with differentbackgrounds, different
perspectives, differentexperiences, but we all tell
them the same thing when theyjoin the team.
We need you to be high integritythat we can get past anything
else, but we can't get pastpeople who are who break trust.
You have to put the team first.
We win together.
We lose together.
Yeah.
And third, you've gotta be, yougotta be humble.
(32:22):
Everybody has something to learnand everybody has something to
teach.
If you can get through thosethings, and we create this team
where people feel as if theybelong right away, I'm already
getting people to perform betterthan they have in the past
without even changing them.
They, I, they just get to bethemselves.
So how do you do it?
You've gotta role model it.
You've gotta hire for it.
You've gotta make sure that thepeople that you have on your
(32:43):
team, Believe in thatenvironment.
This isn't something you canfake.
It's not something that you puton a sign and hanging on the
wall and everybody suddenly doesit.
Like you've gotta, you've gottabelieve it.
You've gotta see it, you'vegotta be passionate about it,
and you've gotta role model it.
For me personally, on my team,if I'm gonna leave work early,
cause I need to pick up my kid,I don't try to sneak out the
back door.
(33:04):
I yell from the treetops, I'mgoing to pick up my son.
I'm gonna get all my work done.
I'll finish it later.
That's not, but you know what?
I want people to feelcomfortable that they can do
that.
I want people to feelcomfortable that they can bring
their whole selves to work.
The way I try to do that is Ibring my whole self to work.
And so people hear a lot aboutmy family, they hear about my
kids, they hear about my fears.
But that's part of buildingtrust.
Lan Elliott (33:25):
It's really wonderful way to think about it
and to carry it through.
From your experience in themilitary where as you mentioned,
it is life or death, you aretrying to bring everybody home
safely, but it also translatesso beautifully into how you
treat your team members.
Jay Caiafa (33:40):
No question.
No question.
Team first.
Yes.
Lan Elliott (33:44):
One of my favorite questions during our interviews
is what advice would you giveyour younger self?
And you've had a few differentlife in your career, but what
advice would you give to 22 yearold Jay?
Jay Caiafa (34:00):
Yeah, I think that's interesting.
Some of that I probably can'tsay publicly.
I think I can erase some of themistakes I made.
But we won't share those, Ithink generally.
Number one, enjoy the ride.
I think with every opportunitythat you have, especially when
you're younger, sometimes we'reso ambitious or we're so ready
to get to the next rung, that wedon't take a second to really
think about what am I gettingfrom this moment in my career?
(34:23):
We think a lot about have I doneenough for this job so that I
can then move on?
But we rarely, very rarely askourselves, has this job done
enough for me?
Have I learned what I need tolearn here?
Have I made the mistakes I needto make here?
The more senior you get thebigger deal, those mistakes are,
it's good to make'em when you'restarting off.
But I've had so many folks thatare very rigid in, this is where
(34:46):
I'm gonna be in five years and10 years by 40, I'm gonna do
this by 50.
I'm gonna do this.
And it's great to have thosegenerally in your head of where
your ambitions are, but don'tget so caught up in the map.
Look outta the windows, enjoythe ride and make sure that
you're taking what you need totake from there.
It's funny, I was actually justat a concert the other night.
(35:07):
We were hosting some folks atTaylor Swift and one of the
things that I was laughing aboutwith my wife is I looked around
almost all of the kids.
We're watching this concertthrough their cell phone while
they're recording things.
And I almost feel like that'show we've gotten with work
sometimes where it's, you'remissing the real part of it.
(35:27):
It's, yes, the resume bulletsmatter and that's really
important, but the relationshipsare what persevere.
The experiences are what reallymatter.
And that's away from the screen.
Stop taking in your life, justlooking at the screen and enjoy
the moments.
That's
Lan Elliott (35:43):
great advice to your younger self.
So as I suspected, cuz I alwayslearned something new when I'm
with you, Jay, which is one ofthe reasons I love talking with
you, but, One final piece ofadvice for our audience, if you
would, and keeping in mind thatour mission is around empowering
personal success, what advicewould you give to women or
(36:03):
underrepresented groups who arelooking to advance their
careers?
Jay Caiafa (36:08):
Yeah, I think first off, what I would say is
understand how much value yourdifferences actually bring to
the table.
And recognize the fact that.
Even though there are things inthis world that may be stacked
against you, and there may besome unconscious bias out there,
and there may be all these otherthings, don't ever let that stop
(36:29):
you from realizing that you'rethe person in power here, that
you've got the ability to reallymake an impact and change.
I think.
This is also where it gets backto things like the personal
board of directors.
I know it's hard.
I've been in meetings.
I was actually laughing withsomebody I'm on a board with,
outside of I h G, about whenthey were asked to join a board
of H B C U and they're white,and they were saying that for
(36:52):
the first time in my life, I'mgetting to these board, this
board meeting, I realize I amthe only white male in the room.
And an hour later I wasexhausted.
Like I, and that's the firsttime I realized, how this
impacts people on my team everyday.
And what I would say is when youthink about your personal board
(37:13):
of directors, I know howexhausting it may be and what
I'm about to recommend.
Make sure they don't all looklike you.
Make sure that they, that's truefor all of us.
We all have that role to play.
But I would also say just beambitious and find those allies
in the company that recognizehow powerful you are and the
difference that you can make.
It's not always easy.
But I think the last piece ofadvice I would give, and this is
(37:35):
why that confidence is soimportant.
If you find yourself in abusiness where, You can't do
that and you feel like thoseceilings are there and you don't
have advocates that work foryou, you're in the wrong
business.
Come work for somebody elsebecause there are still a lot of
companies out there that don't,they haven't gotten it.
(37:56):
They may say it, they may talkthe talk, but there are other
companies that live it andbelieve in it.
And I promise you, when you findone of those, your best self is
just sitting there a momentaway.
Lan Elliott (38:09):
Amazing way to end.
Thank you so much, Jay.
Amazing interview.
Thank you so much for sharing alot of insights, which you've
gained along the way.
And for our viewers, if you'veenjoyed this interview with Jay,
I hope you'll join us at d e iadvisors.org for other great
interviews with hospitalityleaders.
Thank you.
Jay Caiafa (38:31):
Thanks.
Hello and welcome to D e I advisors in Arizona,
nonprofit dedicated toempowering personal success.
My name is Lan Elliot on behalfof d e I advisors, and today I'm
really thrilled to have JayCaifa, the Chief Operating
Officer for the Americas, for IH G Hotels and Resorts on our
show.
Welcome,
Jay Caiafa (00:22):
Jay.
Thanks Lan.
Great to see you.
Great to be
Lan Elliott (00:24):
here.
It's great to see you.
Now.
We've had the opportunity towork together.
I think we started at I H G at asimilar time, but you've had a
very fascinating and uniquecareer.
You graduated from the Air ForceAcademy.
You're a decorated Air Force.
I.
Combat pilot and officer.
You're also a licensed attorney.
Having worked at Paul Hastingsfor a number of years, you have
(00:46):
a really unique path toleadership for our industry.
So I'm really excited if youcould please share with our
audience your career journey andsome of the inflection points
that.
That you experienced along theway, and perhaps if there's a
certain factor that contributedto your success?
Jay Caiafa (01:05):
Sure.
Yeah.
When you say it that way, Ithink back and realize that none
of my five year plans have everworked out in any way, shape, or
form.
And I think that's okay.
I think I've had a great careerthat way.
I've learned a lot.
I've met a lot of people.
But you're right, I didn't startoff in the hospitality world.
I started off almost as far awayfrom it as you can get.
When I was a kid, I saw themovie Top Gun.
Obviously the first one.
(01:26):
The original one.
Now people know it again.
And I always wanted to be amilitary pilot.
Obviously Top Gun was a Navything.
I didn't want to be on ships, sothe Air Force seemed like the
right way to go and the AirForce Academy was an incredible
school, a great opportunity.
And so I took a chance and wentthat way.
Absolutely amazing career in theAir Force, but one of the things
that taught me was that nothingthat we have planned is set in
(01:47):
stone.
When I got my wings, it was thebeginning of 2001.
We were flying air shows aroundthe world.
It was a great job for a, 23, 24year old guy being able to fly
around and poke holes in the skyand enjoy life.
And next thing I know I'm flyingover Midtown Manhattan with
trade centers smoldering, tryingto get planes to land.
And then after that, 300 days ayear in the Middle East, flying
(02:10):
combat.
Not at all what we thought wewere signing up for.
Not at all what we had expected.
But I'll tell you, you talkabout an inflection point.
That's one of those moments inmy career, being in the Middle
East, being in some of the worstplaces on earth, but being
surrounded by great teammates.
That I realized that the team isso much more important than just
the job or the place or thelocation.
(02:32):
We had some of my fondestmemories in some of the worst
places on Earth because I lovemy team.
And it was a group of folks thatjust had that bond and we could
get through it and we had a jobto do, but found a way to laugh
and have fun.
But yeah.
So my first inflection point inmy career happened in 2004.
I was actually diagnosed withacid reflex heartburn.
The Air Force hadn't approvedNexium for pilots, and so they
(02:54):
basically gave me a choice offlying a desk for two years or
having an honorable dischargeand going and doing something
else with my life.
And I took door number two,decided to go to law school.
Didn't really know what I wantedto be when I grew up.
So law school seemed like agreat idea.
Really enjoyed my time at DukeLaw School, business School
joint degree.
Knew I didn't wanna be a lawyerforever.
But there was something aboutthat practice of law that I felt
(03:15):
like I had to at least try.
I had to pass a bar, I had to bea lawyer.
I didn't wanna be a litigator.
So actually, I went into yourworld land.
I went on the deal side.
I be went into commercial realestate finance working with
developers and banks, trying tofigure out how to get deals
done.
And I started about a weekbefore Lehman collapsed in 2008,
which was absolutely terribletiming.
(03:36):
But hey, that's life.
My firm laid off a bunch offolks.
I was lucky enough to keep myjob.
But our job changed.
We went from development andbuilding to workouts and
foreclosures and leasing and.
All the things I never reallywanted to do.
But it gave me enough time and Iguess the benefit of being
willing to work pretty hard, Igot to plan in some startups and
(03:57):
I started working with a numberof startups.
I actually ran a biotech startupfor a little while.
Really got the business bug.
Decided that I wanted to followthat, but I also knew that I
didn't really have enoughexperience to be great at it.
Being in the startup taught methat I had a lot to learn.
B School was great, but itwasn't enough.
So I went to probably one of thebest learning laboratories I
(04:17):
could have thought of.
I went to Banning company andbecame a consultant, and
basically for the next threeyears, worked in private equity
mostly Across a number ofdifferent disciplines.
Never worked in the same areatwice.
We did things like creditbureaus.
We did plastic packaging forfruits and vegetables.
We did all these diligences oncompanies you'd never think of,
but it taught me really how tothink through problems, how to
(04:39):
approach something that I didn'tknow the answer to in an
efficient way.
But again, with a team, that'swhat I really missed.
In law.
In law, I was by myself all thetime.
At Bain, you're with a caseteam, so same thing.
You're, you might be workinguntil two in the morning, but
you're working with four otherpeople and you're finding a way
to laugh and have a blast andhave an impact.
But I didn't wanna, I didn'twanna be a consultant for the
(05:00):
rest of my life.
And that's actually what led meto I H G.
I had someone that was workingwith me on an externship to I H
G and they introduced me toRicardo Lopez, who's no longer
with I h G.
But brought me into the strategyworld and I realized that
hospitality was an incredibleplace to really build a career.
Something I think that's gottenlost in the last few years that
people haven't necessarily seen,but there aren't a whole lot of
(05:24):
careers where you look at someof our leaders, That have
started off as GMs Keith, goingfrom a GM all the way up to a
global c e o or some of ourowners who came to this country
with, the money, they could fitin their pockets that now own
dozens of hotels and they'vechanged the generational wealth
for their family incredibly.
And I saw that and I just fellin love with it.
(05:45):
It's a people business.
And it's been it's been a reallyfun ride for the last almost 10
years.
Lan Elliott (05:50):
No, you've had a phenomenal career.
Just in the time that I've knownyou at I h G.
Your trajectory has been reallyincredible, so it's great that
I'm really glad that I had thechance to work with you like
that.
Lemme ask you this.
Oh, thank you.
You have so many wonderfultalents, but was there something
as you were coming up in yourcareer that you thought, you
know what, this is a skill.
(06:10):
I need to hone a little bitbetter, that's going to make me
more successful.
This is something that I need toimprove.
Jay Caiafa (06:17):
Yeah, I think, one of the things in hindsight
reflecting on my career that wasactually probably the most
valuable that people take forgranted was actually the
training I got in law from awriting perspective.
I think that there are so manybrilliant people out there that
just cannot communicateeffectively.
And in business, whether it'shospitality or anywhere else,
(06:37):
being able to understand youraudience and find a way to
connect.
But to also deliver theinformation that you have in a
way that's compelling, that canbe, digested and used was huge.
And in law, actually, it'sprobably one of the only things
that I'm glad that I learnedfrankly, as a recovering
attorney was how to writeeffectively.
(06:57):
Clear, succinct.
I think a lot of folks take thatfor granted, just the
communication side more broadly.
One of the things that I alwaystell people and it's not my own
idea, it's a quote that I'veheard, but they say, if you
can't write it in a sentence,you can't explain it in an hour.
And that's the point that wehave to all get really good at
is how do I take somethingthat's complex and make it
(07:17):
understandable, make itactionable and really have an
impact.
So that's one.
I think the other one that Itell people, especially from a
strategy perspective, you gottalove talking to yourself.
It's this in like intellectualcuriosity, this desire to get
past the question.
And I think so many of us relyon someone else to ask us the
(07:38):
hard questions when we've gottabe asking ourselves that the
whole way through.
If you don't have this likelittle voice on your shoulder
saying why?
Why not that?
Why this?
What's really the problem?
Where's the no?
How do I get past the, no,what's your next objection gonna
be?
So I think that too, that,taking that intellectual
curiosity and turning it intosomething that you can actually
Have an impact with just,pushing yourself to get past the
(08:00):
first answer and then beingwilling to tell your boss, Hey,
I got the answer to yourquestion, but by the way, you
asked me the wrong question,what you should have asked me
was this.
And I also got an answer to thatfor you.
And I think some people justreally stay in the bounds of the
initial question a little bittoo long.
Lan Elliott (08:17):
I think that's so interesting and it's a different
twist.
A lot of people have mentionedcuriosity, but not in that same
way to push past the ba basicquestion and figure it out.
I use it a little bit in, innegotiations when I'm talking to
someone and I ask a question andthey answer.
With something that doesn'tquite fit.
Then I know there's like maybethree more questions I need to
ask until I get to the heart ofthings.
(08:39):
But it, it's funny, I don'ttranslate that to other parts of
my life.
So it's really interesting thatyou've learned to, to apply that
in lots of different ways.
Jay Caiafa (08:46):
I think, especially in, in, in development and
negotiation when you're workingthrough those areas, being able
to really see both sides beforeyou get there.
Makes such a difference, makessuch a difference to be able to
be not only so that you'reprepared, but you're also
empathetic.
You understand why they see itthat way.
It helps you get past the no, ithelps you get to the right
(09:07):
answer.
That works out for both sides.
Lan Elliott (09:09):
Absolutely.
So very true.
Especially in negotiations.
Let's broaden our discussion alittle bit to how you overcome
obstacles in general, how youapproach a problem.
Can you share how you firstprocess it?
What do you do first?
How do you motivate your teamwhen they're tackling a
(09:30):
challenge?
Jay Caiafa (09:31):
Yeah.
I think the first piece ofmotivating yourself and
motivating your team isunderstanding why.
Why are you doing this?
What is the point of thischallenge?
There's plenty challenges thatwe can all take on.
There's obviously not a shortageof challenges in the world.
The question is, why this one?
Why does it matter?
And the reason why I try tothink about that is because I
(09:53):
also want our teams to take onkind of a fail fast mentality.
So the moment they're in thechallenge far enough, and they
realize that the juice isn'tworth the squeeze anymore.
We've gotta fire ourselves.
We've gotta go work on adifferent challenge then and
move through it.
So it's interesting.
I was talking with somebody theother day and we were talking a
little bit about Amazon'sapproach.
To projects in general and atone point, and, regardless of
(10:16):
whether or not you like JeffBezos, good, bad, indifferent,
whatever some of his businessideas have actually been pretty
solid.
And this one in particular Ireally liked.
So what he would have people dois at the start of a project is
instead of going through theentire project and at the end
having comms or communicationswrite your PR statement and the
one page FAQ on why thismatters, he wanted everybody to
(10:37):
do that at the beginning of theproject.
So before you even start, writeyour PR B bullets, what is this
gonna accomplish?
What does solving this mean tous?
What does it mean?
In our case, what does it meanto our owners?
What does it mean to our guests?
What does it mean to ourshareholders?
Is that PR bullet compelling?
Because if it's not, you shouldprobably just stop there, right?
Because chances are, it's nevergonna be as compelling as when
(11:00):
we start.
But really getting people to thewhy does this work matter?
Where does it fit in?
What are we trying toaccomplish?
And then to me, I've alwayslooked at challenges as a fun.
Problem to solve, right?
Anybody can do the easy work.
No, nobody's celebrated or puton a statue for doing the easy
thing.
They're celebrated for doing thehard things.
That's where all the value is.
That's where I think we reallymake a difference in our
(11:20):
careers.
So framing it less is achallenge, is more as an
opportunity.
How can we solve this?
And then there's lots oftactical ways that you go about
trying to figure out how am Igonna approach this.
One of the things I learned inmy time in consulting that I
think has served really well issomething that Bain calls answer
first.
Some of the other consultingfirms called something
different.
The Pyramid principle, I thinkis what they call it at
(11:42):
McKenzie, maybe, or bcg.
They'll kill me if I get itwrong.
It doesn't matter, but it's allthe same thing, which is start
with an answer.
The answer doesn't have to beright, but you wanna make your
answer complete enough where asyou go seek to prove out your
answer, whether it's right orwrong, you're gonna find the
right part, right?
And then that helps give yousomething that you can go
(12:03):
actually break into chunks andgo address.
Cuz sometimes the stuff isreally overwhelming.
And then I think the last thingI would say land and this is one
of the things that I love aboutbeing a pilot.
I loved about being inconsulting.
I love about being at I H G.
I never approached challenges bymyself.
It's, I think we all want toaccomplish it by ourselves, but
(12:23):
to me, the best way is to builda team around you that's got a
diverse set of perspectives, adiverse set of experiences that
sees the world in a differentway and will help you break
through some of those thingsthat.
You don't even see half the timeyou're just missing the point.
And so being able to build agreat team, which I think is
what is probably my favoritepart of I h g, is has been huge
(12:45):
in getting through any of thosechallenges, is that we never do
it alone.
I
Lan Elliott (12:49):
love so much about what you said there, first
asking the why are we doing thisand failing fast?
I thought that was a reallygreat concept.
And then switching gears, ifit's not working right, you need
to do that sooner rather thangetting to the end.
And then I also loved having theanswer first, or I think we
called it in high schoolscience, have a hypothesis of
what you're trying to solve for.
Yep.
And it doesn't work out right.
(13:10):
Keep testing against that andthen building a team because no
one person's gonna be.
As powerful as everybody'scollective efforts put together.
Jay Caiafa (13:20):
So no question.
No question.
I love that you're digging backto high school science,
Lan Elliott (13:26):
right?
Yeah.
It said a hypothesis to me.
Jay Caiafa (13:28):
That's right.
No, that's what they call it.
Hypothesis driven hypothesisdriven problem.
Solvings.
Yeah.
Lan Elliott (13:33):
There's a word I haven't used in a few decades.
So moving on to taking risks.
And one of the things I saysometimes when we're working on
difficult challenges, and I'llsay to the team is, this is not
rocket science.
It's not life or death.
We're not doing open heartsurgery, but you've actually
been a combat pilot.
So when we talk about takingrisks, you actually have been in
(13:56):
a situation unlike a lot of us,where it is life or death.
How do you approach takingcalculated risks and is there
anything from your prior rolesthat translate into the business
world?
And maybe could you share anexample of a success and how you
mentally prepared yourself andyour team to take a chance on
(14:16):
something?
Sure.
Jay Caiafa (14:17):
Yeah.
I think, whether in combat or inbusiness, It's always gonna be a
balance of courage and judgment,right?
You can't have one without theother and expect to be
successful.
Maybe you can get lucky, butit's always a balance of being
willing to do somethingcourageous that's outside of
(14:38):
your comfort zone, but alsohaving the judgment to realize
if I jump off my house, it'sprobably gonna end badly for me.
We've gotta put some otherthings into here.
So I think, you know what I'velearned.
Primarily through my time in theAir Force Flying Combat is that
I have to make sure that ifwe're gonna take a risk, number
one, it's worth it.
Number two, I've created anenvironment that has the
(15:01):
psychological safety wherepeople feel comfortable bringing
their whole selves and makingsure that they are willing to
share their perspectives, evenif it's maybe a little bit
scary, right?
Because now we're all operatinga little bit closer to the edge.
I need everybody in that room onthat team to be willing to get
pretty close to the edge withus.
Otherwise, we just don't, wedon't really do it.
(15:24):
But again, it all goes back tothe why are we gonna take this
risk?
It's not just about taking arisk for the sake of taking a
risk but it is about beingwilling to put your hand up and
say, I'd like to give it a shot.
I have confidence in the teamthat I've built and my skillset.
That's the judgment side of it.
To say, let's take a chance onthis.
(15:44):
And you know what?
Failure in the business sense.
I think so many people see thatas a bad word.
It's only a bad word if you'reincapable of succeeding or if
you just fail at the wrongthings too frequently.
But taking a risk on somethingand it falling short done
correctly is not a bad thing.
(16:04):
It's actually a good thing inmany ways.
You get to learn from yourmistakes as opposed to just
wonder.
Would this have ever worked?
But I think you've gotta knowwhat the risk is, right?
So when I get with my team andwe start thinking about what do
we want to do?
We want to try somethingdifferent, we gotta, we're gonna
put this in pilot.
The first thing we ask is whatcan go wrong if we get this
wrong?
(16:25):
We just come out of the box.
We're just wrong.
What does that mean?
How big of a deal is this?
And for a lot of things you'llrealize, you know what, it's
actually not that big of a deal.
So I don't need to get to a 95%confidence level before I press
go.
I just need to get to that 60%confidence level.
But other things, cybersecurity,for example, credit card
(16:46):
security, a lot can go wrong ifwe don't get that right.
If I'm gonna take a risk in thatworld, my confidence level has
to be 98, 90 9% can becatastrophic to people if we're
wrong.
So that kind of balances thedanger and then you can set
people up to, to be comfortablearound that.
In the hospitality world.
There hasn't been a whole lot ofrisks that we've had to take
(17:08):
that were that dangerous.
I think going into it, peopleprobably feel that way.
Launching a new brand, trying todo something like coming outta
covid and removing, full stayover housekeeping.
Like those are things that preCovid none of us would've ever
talked about, right?
We would've never thought thatyou could do that, but you start
calculating what's really therisk if we get this wrong?
What's the benefit if we get itright?
(17:30):
What can this do to help owners?
What can it do to help the teamin order to get, all right, so
let's take a chance figure outwhere the pressure points are.
I think that's, that was one ofthe best parts going through
Covid.
I think it gave us all anopportunity to really question
things and take some risks andgoing through that, if that
makes sense.
Lan Elliott (17:47):
Absolutely.
And I think everyone was goingthrough it together because no
one, not even Mr.
Marriott, who's been in thebusiness for a really long time.
Had experience dealing with whatour industry faced in those
early days of spring 2020 I alsothought it was very interesting
that as an industry we reallycame together and leaned on one
another to, because nobody knew,and leaders were reaching out
(18:11):
across companies to, to ask,what are you doing?
How are you handling it?
Yep.
Jay Caiafa (18:17):
Not just across the companies, I mean across
industries.
The number of phone calls thatwe had with our partners at like
the Cleveland Clinic.
So what do you think of UVlights?
What do you think?
What, how should we handle this?
It's amazing how thosebusinesses that tried to stay
open all started talking to eachother.
And saying what can we borrowfrom each other?
What can we learn?
What's working for you?
It was pretty neat.
(18:38):
It was pretty neat.
Lan Elliott (18:38):
Yeah.
It was, I don't wanna do itagain, but, no, I don't wanna do
it again.
But it was, it's an amazingthing to live through during our
lifetime.
Absolutely.
Let's talk a little bit moreabout, Personal boards of
directors, we've talked aboutthis together.
And how having a personal boardof director can act as your own
personal support system.
(19:00):
So how do you identify who youinclude in your personal board
of directors, and what kinds ofthings do you rely on them for?
Jay Caiafa (19:07):
Yeah, it's a great question.
It's something that's beenthrown around, almost buzzworthy
wordy to people like, oh, who'son your personal board, Rick?
But it, I actually think itreally does matter.
They.
You should plan for it.
The way that I think a companyplans for a board of directors,
right?
When you look at it, you don'twant it to just be friends that
look like you and that thinklike you.
(19:29):
All that does is reinforce yourown personal biases about these
decisions, and it's such amistake.
But instead, thinking aboutpeople who maybe have a
completely different workingstyle than you do are at a
different point in their livesthan you are, have worked in
different industries than youhave.
To me, having a personal boardof people with that diversity
(19:50):
really makes a differencebecause when I come to them in
my life, and many of'em are nowclose personal friends as well.
They didn't all start off thatway, but when you come to them
with, man, we're going through,like during the pandemic, we're
going through all this socialunrest across our country.
I've got a really diverse teamacross my organization.
(20:11):
I'm thinking about talking aboutthis.
What do you, how does that hity'all?
What do you think that feelslike to people?
Am I thinking about this theright way?
Different jobs that we've takenon.
Some of the jobs I've taken onat I H G have been great, but I
took them on with no realexperience in that space.
To your point about takingrisks, I had to.
(20:31):
Talk to me, like how would youdo this?
This is a mini career transitiongoing from strategy into hotel
lifecycle or into the COO role.
Where are the watchouts?
What should I be focused on?
So I think it's really importantto build a board of directors
with people that, number one,care about you as a person,
right?
The, at its core, they have tocare about you.
(20:53):
Number two, are willing to giveyou bad news.
I think so many people pick thefolks that they know will treat
them with kid gloves.
I don't want that on mine.
I want somebody to tell me, Jaythat's nuts.
I don't know why you're thinkingthat, but that's a bad idea.
Don't do that.
Don't do that.
Or, I know you're scared, butyou need to just toughen up and
(21:13):
give it a shot.
You'll be able to do this.
You want folks that are gonnamake you feel a little bit
uncomfortable sometimes.
But that's also why it's reallyimportant to build that trust
and that, you've heard me say ita few times in the way that I
run my teams, but thatpsychological safety, do we, do,
we trust each other enough togive each other real advice,
real feedback, not just easyfeedback.
(21:35):
And it changes.
It changes over time.
It's not like you meet'em all atone meeting.
You use'em for different things.
But I think it's, I think it'ssuper important and a very
underutilized I don't know.
Thing that you can lean on inyour career.
Lan Elliott (21:48):
Absolutely.
Great support system to be ableto have people, to bounce ideas
off of people that you trust,and like you said, people who
will tell it to you straight whoaren't gonna sugarcoat it for
you.
Jay Caiafa (21:57):
As you get more and more senior, you have fewer and
fewer of those people in yourbusiness that are willing to do
that.
Yeah.
You start getting into aposition where it starts
feeling.
Not lonely per se, cuz you'rearound a lot of people, but it's
lonely in the sense that yournumber of peers is starting to
shrink a little bit.
And the decisions that you'remaking are impacting the people
that you would normally go tofor advice right now.
(22:20):
So it helps to find people thatare also just non-judgmental
that there's no, it's a saferoom.
You can talk about thingsopenly.
Absolutely.
Lan Elliott (22:30):
I wanted to switch gears a little bit and talk
about champions, also known assponsors and advocates, because
a lot of times we talk aboutmentors and having a mentor is
wonderful, but having a championto pick one of those three words
is really important.
It's not some it's not somethingI understood early in my career.
(22:51):
But it's really to have thepeople who are gonna speak up on
your behalf when you're not inthe room, when there are
opportunities or promotions thatare out there.
And I know that i h g hasdeveloped a formal sponsorship
program, if I'm not mistaken.
How important is it to findchampions and how do you go
about it if your company doesn'thave a formal program?
Jay Caiafa (23:13):
Yeah, you're right.
It's something I was like, elanI really never contemplated this
idea of champion sponsors.
I, I thought mentor was theoverarching umbrella and it's
really not.
There is a big differencebetween somebody who's willing
to invest time in you.
Versus somebody who's willing toinvest personal credibility in
you.
And they are really verydifferent things.
(23:34):
You're right at I H G I love thefact that we've started to
formalize this.
We have a program called theAscend Program that we launched.
And really this started from ade and I board perspective where
we knew that we had folks thatwere probably under frankly, In
positions in the company wherethey weren't as visible to
(23:55):
folks.
They were underrepresentedacross our company, but super
talented.
And we knew that the best way tostart creating this momentum in
the company for people to dothis was to role model it.
And so that's how we started.
And I was part of the firstcohort of sponsors now in my
second cohort with Ascend.
And it's been fantastic.
(24:16):
But you're right, there's a lotof companies that don't do it.
It's not formalized.
Frankly, even I think justgenerally, I don't know what
it's been like in your life, inyour career, but I find.
That over formalizationsometimes takes away from the
true benefit of being a sponsoror having a champion or an
advocate.
But I think, for me, in mycareer, when I look back and I
think about the folks that havereally championed my career, the
(24:40):
way that I think I kinda heardan echo there for a second,
sorry.
The way that I think you startdeveloping those relationships
is number one, you want to beimpactful for them.
You wanna help them improvetheir, stature and standing as
well.
You wanna build trust with them.
You wanna show them how you canhelp, how you're eager to learn
how you wanna move through.
You wanna be somebody that folksbelieve you will just get stuff
(25:03):
done, you know how to workacross the organization.
You can have impact in otherprojects.
It usually, at least in myexperience, starts small.
If it's not formalized at yourcompany, you don't wake up one
day and say, Hey, land, I'd loveyou to be my champion.
This is the job I want and thisis the next job I want.
Can you please go advocate forme?
(25:23):
It's usually, Hey, I've workedon some projects, we've
overlapped a couple times.
I really like the way you lead.
I really see how you're doingthis.
In many cases they start asmentorships.
But again, I think it alwaysgoes back to.
The best way to have a sponsoror a champion is to give them
something that they can clearlyadvocate behind.
And to me, that always goes backto being able to show impact in
(25:45):
the company, willingness to putin the extra hours sometimes,
cuz some, sometimes you need tosign up for that extra project
to be able to get in front ofthe right people and take that
chance.
Be willing to raise your hand,be willing to take that risk.
But it's just cultivatingrelationships.
It's not I don't know thatthere's a, an obvious playbook
in my mind.
It's try to get involved.
(26:06):
Try to always be helpful, be agood team player.
And as you see people that havethe experience in the areas of
the business that you'reinterested in, or have the tools
on their toolkit that you knowyou don't have yet, or that
you're really eager to learn,you connect and you work
through.
And I think you've gotta bewilling to get outta your
comfort zone too.
(26:27):
One of the funny things that Ithink a lot of people are afraid
to talk about sometimes is whattheir ambitions really are.
And for people to advocate foryou, they need to know that too.
Especially because where youthink your path goes, you may
not be planning it the rightway, right?
(26:47):
You might think this is the nextjob I want, but really, if you
wanna be c e o, these are thethree jobs you're eventually
gonna have to have.
And that one's not one of'em.
So let me help you navigate tothat.
But I've met a lot of peoplethat are I've had to pull out of
them, Hey, someday I want to bean svp.
Someday I want to be a C E O.
Great.
That's great.
We can start with that.
Let's have a conversation aboutwhat that's gonna take.
(27:08):
It might take 10 years, it mighttake 20 years, but let's have a
real conversation about it.
But you've gotta put yourselfout there.
You gotta be willing to put inthat emotional work, I think as
well.
Lan Elliott (27:19):
Yeah, I think that's, I think that's so true,
and I know when I've talked tosome of the people on my team,
when we first started talkingabout where do you wanna go with
your career, I was surprised.
It was a really uncomfortableconversation for a lot of
people.
And I don't know if it wasbecause they hadn't really given
it a lot of thought, or becausethey were scared to say the
words out loud, like it wasgoing to be carved on their
(27:39):
tombstones.
It's, we need something to shootfor and something to help.
Get you towards.
And so how do I help you in thatdirection of, I don't know which
direction you want to go in.
So I think it's so important tobe able to articulate what you
want.
Jay Caiafa (27:54):
Absolutely.
And even if you don't know whatthe job is I see so many people,
I just wanna be a director.
I, I wanna be a vice president.
Okay of what?
In what is it that draws you tothat?
Do you actually understand whatthat is?
Do you realize the amount ofmuck that you get into once you
start getting into some of this,some of these other jobs, do you
realize you're not gonna be ableto do this anymore?
But it's amazing that usuallywhen I have those career
(28:14):
conversations, people talk to meabout what they want to do next,
not about what they want to do.
Yeah.
And it's, I think that's adistinction, especially if
you're building with folks thatare gonna be willing to advocate
for you.
You're building a lifetimerelationship with them.
They don't advocate for one job.
They become part of, maybe partof your board.
(28:36):
They are, they're there for youlong term.
So they can't help you if allyou're thinking about is near
term.
That makes it a lot harder.
Lan Elliott (28:44):
Absolutely.
I wanted to jump into a relatedconversation, which is around
belonging, because in pastinterviews we've talked a lot
about inter inclusive cultures,or D E I.
Initiatives, but you've hadleadership roles in the military
(29:08):
and in business and you'vetalked about the need for team
members to not just feelincluded, but to be, go beyond
that and have a sense of beyondbelonging, which is the new
thing.
I'm starting to hear more, whichis D E I b with belonging.
Can you share more about thatand what are some of the key
things that leaders or managersof teams can do to help their
(29:28):
teams feel like they belong?
Team members.
Yeah,
Jay Caiafa (29:31):
I think it's such an important distinction.
Teams are different when youfeel as if that's where you were
meant to be.
Not that you were just invited,not that you're a part of the
team, but that this is where youwere meant to be.
And in the military, I think oneof the things that you and I
have talked about in the past isI hear a lot of people talk
about, Giving 130% right andfeeling Hey, I've got this
(29:52):
secret reserve where I cansomehow tap into that and give
more than my a hundred percent.
And that's always been one of myleast favorite sayings.
And I'm gonna tie this back tobelonging, I promise.
But the reason why is the momentwe believe that there is
something beyond our capacitythat allows us to somehow plug
into this secret reserve.
It takes the responsibility awayfrom the leaders.
(30:14):
To allow people to be their bestselves.
Because when I think about teamswhere somebody doesn't feel like
they belong, or even worse,doesn't feel like they're
included, one of thesenon-inclusive teams, then they
spend a lot of their energybeing somebody that they're not,
and I don't care who you'retalking to, that does take
(30:34):
energy that takes.
Mental energy, emotional energy,physical energy in a lot of
cases to do that.
So if I'm looking at my teammembers and I need their a
hundred percent right, andthey're spending 30% of that
wearing a mask, trying topretend to be somebody, they're
not even on their best day, I'mgetting a C minus out of them,
(30:56):
right?
And so in the military, the waywe thought about that is if I'm
in an emergency situation, I'vegot a crew and everybody's got a
job, my job is to get them home.
My job is to make sure that theycan all do their job to the best
of their ability.
If I'm panicking and that'staking up 20% of my bandwidth,
that means it's taking up 50% oftheir bandwidth.
(31:17):
And now I've got a, babblingchild helping me.
It can't work.
I've gotta absorb their stress,I've gotta let them fit in.
So in the corporate world, tome, that really becomes part of
this idea of belonging.
If I am sapping your energy.
By forcing you to be in anorganization where you can't
operate the way you are at yourbest because you're stressed
(31:40):
about your kids, because you'restressed about your spouse
because you're worried thatpeople won't accept you because
of, your diversity or your opopinion.
If you create that environment,then nobody's operating at their
capability and as a team you'llnever succeed.
So to me, whenever we talk aboutbuilding teams, we deliberately.
Hire on my teams.
(32:00):
People with differentbackgrounds, different
perspectives, differentexperiences, but we all tell
them the same thing when theyjoin the team.
We need you to be high integritythat we can get past anything
else, but we can't get pastpeople who are who break trust.
You have to put the team first.
We win together.
We lose together.
Yeah.
And third, you've gotta be, yougotta be humble.
(32:22):
Everybody has something to learnand everybody has something to
teach.
If you can get through thosethings, and we create this team
where people feel as if theybelong right away, I'm already
getting people to perform betterthan they have in the past
without even changing them.
They, I, they just get to bethemselves.
So how do you do it?
You've gotta role model it.
You've gotta hire for it.
You've gotta make sure that thepeople that you have on your
(32:43):
team, Believe in thatenvironment.
This isn't something you canfake.
It's not something that you puton a sign and hanging on the
wall and everybody suddenly doesit.
Like you've gotta, you've gottabelieve it.
You've gotta see it, you'vegotta be passionate about it,
and you've gotta role model it.
For me personally, on my team,if I'm gonna leave work early,
cause I need to pick up my kid,I don't try to sneak out the
back door.
(33:04):
I yell from the treetops, I'mgoing to pick up my son.
I'm gonna get all my work done.
I'll finish it later.
That's not, but you know what?
I want people to feelcomfortable that they can do
that.
I want people to feelcomfortable that they can bring
their whole selves to work.
The way I try to do that is Ibring my whole self to work.
And so people hear a lot aboutmy family, they hear about my
kids, they hear about my fears.
But that's part of buildingtrust.
Lan Elliott (33:25):
It's really wonderful way to think about it
and to carry it through.
From your experience in themilitary where as you mentioned,
it is life or death, you aretrying to bring everybody home
safely, but it also translatesso beautifully into how you
treat your team members.
Jay Caiafa (33:40):
No question.
No question.
Team first.
Yes.
Lan Elliott (33:44):
One of my favorite questions during our interviews
is what advice would you giveyour younger self?
And you've had a few differentlife in your career, but what
advice would you give to 22 yearold Jay?
Jay Caiafa (34:00):
Yeah, I think that's interesting.
Some of that I probably can'tsay publicly.
I think I can erase some of themistakes I made.
But we won't share those, Ithink generally.
Number one, enjoy the ride.
I think with every opportunitythat you have, especially when
you're younger, sometimes we'reso ambitious or we're so ready
to get to the next rung, that wedon't take a second to really
think about what am I gettingfrom this moment in my career?
(34:23):
We think a lot about have I doneenough for this job so that I
can then move on?
But we rarely, very rarely askourselves, has this job done
enough for me?
Have I learned what I need tolearn here?
Have I made the mistakes I needto make here?
The more senior you get thebigger deal, those mistakes are,
it's good to make'em when you'restarting off.
But I've had so many folks thatare very rigid in, this is where
(34:46):
I'm gonna be in five years and10 years by 40, I'm gonna do
this by 50.
I'm gonna do this.
And it's great to have thosegenerally in your head of where
your ambitions are, but don'tget so caught up in the map.
Look outta the windows, enjoythe ride and make sure that
you're taking what you need totake from there.
It's funny, I was actually justat a concert the other night.
(35:07):
We were hosting some folks atTaylor Swift and one of the
things that I was laughing aboutwith my wife is I looked around
almost all of the kids.
We're watching this concertthrough their cell phone while
they're recording things.
And I almost feel like that'show we've gotten with work
sometimes where it's, you'remissing the real part of it.
(35:27):
It's, yes, the resume bulletsmatter and that's really
important, but the relationshipsare what persevere.
The experiences are what reallymatter.
And that's away from the screen.
Stop taking in your life, justlooking at the screen and enjoy
the moments.
That's
Lan Elliott (35:43):
great advice to your younger self.
So as I suspected, cuz I alwayslearned something new when I'm
with you, Jay, which is one ofthe reasons I love talking with
you, but, One final piece ofadvice for our audience, if you
would, and keeping in mind thatour mission is around empowering
personal success, what advicewould you give to women or
(36:03):
underrepresented groups who arelooking to advance their
careers?
Jay Caiafa (36:08):
Yeah, I think first off, what I would say is
understand how much value yourdifferences actually bring to
the table.
And recognize the fact that.
Even though there are things inthis world that may be stacked
against you, and there may besome unconscious bias out there,
and there may be all these otherthings, don't ever let that stop
(36:29):
you from realizing that you'rethe person in power here, that
you've got the ability to reallymake an impact and change.
I think.
This is also where it gets backto things like the personal
board of directors.
I know it's hard.
I've been in meetings.
I was actually laughing withsomebody I'm on a board with,
outside of I h G, about whenthey were asked to join a board
of H B C U and they're white,and they were saying that for
(36:52):
the first time in my life, I'mgetting to these board, this
board meeting, I realize I amthe only white male in the room.
And an hour later I wasexhausted.
Like I, and that's the firsttime I realized, how this
impacts people on my team everyday.
And what I would say is when youthink about your personal board
(37:13):
of directors, I know howexhausting it may be and what
I'm about to recommend.
Make sure they don't all looklike you.
Make sure that they, that's truefor all of us.
We all have that role to play.
But I would also say just beambitious and find those allies
in the company that recognizehow powerful you are and the
difference that you can make.
It's not always easy.
But I think the last piece ofadvice I would give, and this is
(37:35):
why that confidence is soimportant.
If you find yourself in abusiness where, You can't do
that and you feel like thoseceilings are there and you don't
have advocates that work foryou, you're in the wrong
business.
Come work for somebody elsebecause there are still a lot of
companies out there that don't,they haven't gotten it.
(37:56):
They may say it, they may talkthe talk, but there are other
companies that live it andbelieve in it.
And I promise you, when you findone of those, your best self is
just sitting there a momentaway.
Lan Elliott (38:09):
Amazing way to end.
Thank you so much, Jay.
Amazing interview.
Thank you so much for sharing alot of insights, which you've
gained along the way.
And for our viewers, if you'veenjoyed this interview with Jay,
I hope you'll join us at d e iadvisors.org for other great
interviews with hospitalityleaders.
Thank you.
Jay Caiafa (38:31):
Thanks.
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